Edit: Sorry. I know skaven are not in the pipeline yet. However they are about the only race I ever played with.
And as nothing has been done with them, I have a level playingfield as the noob here. ;)

Skaven:
-fleet of foot: no terrain movement modifiers.. exept roads.
-burrowing: can build cities in hills and mountains.
-cannot build cities on other terraintypes, but CAN capture them.
-hidden: skaven are naturally secretive.
-NEED warpstone: without it, they are stuck in the stoneage.
-The reasons skaven should go to war are
1-warpstone.
2-capturing human cities for food.
3-capture dwarven territory.
4-because it's evil.
-I'll copy/paste the ideas from the outside thread later...


Anybody thought about tunneling as an advance?
For groundloving civs such as Dwarves and Skaven, darkelves.

-a second roadlayer.
-can also be built in mountains...did the skavenmap say they also tunneled to Cathay?
-may be built in enemy territory by special(stealthy)workers (skavenslave-tunnelers)
-Can be used to move through enemy teritory, ignoring culture.
-goblins can use existing tunnels.
(-Other races cannot dig tunnels, but can research for special tunnelrat units?)
-Units in tunnels are considdered hidden....hmm. maybe too strong. Only from more than 1 square away?




Can civs have bonusses from specific terrain types?

If so I'd like to propose Dwarves can get more money (and food, don't forget stonebread!) out of hills.
Woodelves could get a food bonus for forest and lessfood for cleared land. They also need to be able to plant trees early on in the game. (btw: How do you do woodelven city walls? magically (illusion) or inherently defended by height?)
The point is: I'd like some civs to prefer certain terraintypes to live in.




Another offtopic thought:
Some races/civs should have early advantage.
And it's not the humans!
Elves and Dwarves should have early techs that give them special abilities/magic.
Orcs would be really strong early, so that they need never really need to leave the stoneage.
Orcs may benefit from having all units able to chop down trees too.
Humans would get even when they get their magics and get upperhand in the machine age.

It's said that humans learned magic from the elves, who learned it from the ancientOnes.
Maybe Elves should start out with raw magic and further refine it during the game. If raw magic is very expensive to research, this could function as a hurdle to seperate the magically inclined races from the barbaric/mundane ones.

i like many of those ideas there Arexach, especially the tunneling and the skaven only being able to build cities in hills and mountains. that would be very interesting to see.

About the woodelven walls, i expect its either as you said, illusion, or its a "wild Heath" such as that which surrounds Athel Loren. an expanse of poisonous, thorny and generally unpleasant plants that the enemy would have to manouver through.

I like the idea of tunneling but I'm not sure if it's realizeable however we should keep this in mind as well as founding cities on mountains. But it will be really complicated to achieve this -a city art that looks good on mountains would be a challenge on its own already not to mention the disadvantage of a civ that doesn't find any hills and mountains nearby. For the tunnels we could maybe use reskinned railroads but the coding of the other attributes of them will probably be an insane amound of work. Let's just say we'lll see;)

Bonuses for civs based on terrain are posssible. Woodelves already got their special cottages and woodsmanpromotion i.e. so they shouldn't get much more from that else they get overpowered but dwarves should probably get bonuses from hills and mountains and mali for grassland, plains...details we should discuss in a thread for dwarves when we get started with them.

About the techs also good idea, lets discuss that in the techthread;)

<snip/paste of first posts basically random ideas>

Necromancy -> allows no zombies?,
-graveyard as improvement/resource for undead units?
-mummy units from black pyramid?

Warpstone...-Influence of warpstone based on religion? (poisonous to most races)
(eg Skaven should be rabbid for the stuff; HornedOne Worship gives +bonus also many powerfull skavenunits should be reliant on it).
-Used up rapidly as its only found small deposits.
-Magical storms could replenish it in random deposits.
-can be 'cleaned up' by alchemist/wizard units?
-Most (evil) magicians want it for it's raw power and good wizards are fascinated by it (but afraid of it's unpredictable nature).

Skaven:
- starting tech: Raw magic, slavery.
- prefered civic: tyrany
-specials: (hopefull thinking?)
-fleet of foot: no terrain movement impedement.
-rapid breeding: increased pop growth.
-hidden ? skavencities visible only from 1 square distance.
-tunnelling as skaven-slavegang (worker) improvement, 2xmovement in tunnelled squares. still needs bridgebuilding(tech) for crossing rivers.

tech tree ideas:
ClanMoulder-tech
warpstone+beast-handling (tech)-> clan moulder (tech), allows: GiantRats/swarms + Wonder:MoulderPit (allows: warpstone-mutations(tech) (allows RatOgres, Wolfrats (req:Warpstone))

ClanSkrye-tech
-warpstone flamers(siege, coll dam)
-poisonwind (FS, colldam) (unitupgrade or single unit)
-Warplock Jezzails: ? High initial impact.
-Wonder:Skrye Engineshoppe (allows: bigger engines, with appropriate secondary reqs, steam etc)

ClanPestillens:
..is it possible to script plague?

Clan-Eshin
-unit upgrade: assasin extra first strike, extra power.
-spies. unseen can infiltrate enemy territory and do stuff...steal warpstone, assasinate unitcommanders (damage50%), poison city water supply (plague?). etc. Install skavenoutpost in city sewers. (negate citydefences, information on city)

etc etc. gotta go now.

</snip>
I realised skaven, fimir, goblins, treemen, ogres etc would make good barbarians.
Skaven especially, as they are supposed to appear from nothing and field huge armies.


I'd like to continue thinking about them though.

It would be a fun civ to play, albeit tricky:
Without warpstone, skaven are stuck with their less powerfull foottroops.
No archery, no siegeweapons, no magic etc.

slaves....how to make cannonfodder usefull, without bankrupting the civ or giving away free exp?


Religions/magic schools:
-to most civs all magic schools schould be at least available for study.
-Can researchcost be variable amongst the civs?
-Effect of researching -alien- magic or their products, could have negative consequences.
(necromancy may not be inherently evil, but average humans take a dim view of king animating their dead to build his palace. Same for chaos magic, it might be powerfull, but you are a fool if you think you are its master)

-Should have a higher impact on interciv relations than is now the case.
If Bretonia adopts the Chaos Gods as religion, the Empire may not like it that much.
Then again, adopting the Chaos Gods should lead a nation to being absorbed by the Chaos civ....hmm.
Anyhow. My initial thought was that Chaos might be friendly with undead or darkelves, but never with the Empire etc.

-Chaos religion spreading could be a cool way for Chaos civ to grow by sowing civil unrest....forcing human nations to expend alot of resources on purging the heretics from their midst!
Cities with Chaos cultists may be eligable for 3rd collumnist action, helping Chaos forces when they attack.

+Skaven plagueincence bearers. (goblin fanatics too!)

How to implement these colourfull units?
Special unit upgrade I guess, pre-combat decimating attack. double-edged 33%damage self.

But:
-can models deviating from the generic unittype be added to a unit?
-are there usefull animations to be recycled? maceman maybe?

+Giant behaviour.
the oldentimes rules had a full page of possible giant actions, which were highly comical, but overly complex.
Maybe some of these actions. (being drunk and falling over into a formation/eating a hero/plucking a tree and using it as club) could be included in some form?

+Skaven plagueincence bearers. (goblin fanatics too!)

How to implement these colourfull units?
Special unit upgrade I guess, pre-combat decimating attack. double-edged 33%damage self.

But:
-can models deviating from the generic unittype be added to a unit?
-are there usefull animations to be recycled? maceman maybe?

+Giant behaviour.
the oldentimes rules had a full page of possible giant actions, which were highly comical, but overly complex.
Maybe some of these actions. (being drunk and falling over into a formation/eating a hero/plucking a tree and using it as club) could be included in some form?
No useful animations in game to simulate anything like that. Neener works on a fanatic already. Giants we have but I doubt we can make animations for them that will properly represent giantactions. I already thought about this yesterday though and think we can have pythonevents displaying text but don't expect much more.

Pity about the giantactions, but expected.

Did some more thinking on tunneling.
Considdered RedAlert-style tunnels (exits only)
but those enable too fast travel and need too little planning and resources to build.

I still considder a secondary road system the best.
Using railroads makes them visible to all AND messes/interfaces with the existing roadsystem. I'd like it to interface only with cities and villages.

-should be invisible to civs without tunneling ability and then only if near, FOW hides tunnels.
-visible in adjacent squares for Earth-elemental(ist)s and witchhunter types.
-allied units on tunneled square is hidden, unless attacking. attacking from tunnel un-hides entire stack.
-attacking city from tunneled square negates defensive bonusses derived from fortification or civics-buildings.


Dinner is ready. continue later.

2) Doom bell can be skaven siege engine used for bombarding.
3) Skaven can not capture cities, only pillage.
4) Skaven can found cities on ruins.

5) Internal strife: skaven cities are more likely to rebel and turn into a barbarian-skaven city.

alot of those other ideas are good.:thumbsup:

about the tunnels, we could make them like improvements, but that they can only be built every 5 squares? for example.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*OOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO*OOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO*OOOOOO*
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OO*OOOOO@OOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

if O = empty square
* = tunnel entrance
@ = city

does that make sense? and then units can use tunnel entrances like ariplanes use air strips in vanilla, ie they can 'teleport' from one tunnel to the next closest.

That would require a fair bit of work, but i think it could be interesting.

and use the 'airdrop' routine for movement between them...
It could work.

I'd rather have a secret roadsystem, but will be happy for any secretmovement.
It doesn't simulate the relentless gnawing at the roots of the world though
and prevents large concentrations of skaven mustering secretly for an assault.
Unless unit stack limit is increased for skaven....

i always thought the unit limit was a temporary measure, but im unsure.

Untill the AI can be made to spread out it's forces and still be agressive, yeah.

addit:
I think many skaven specific units could be like the 'fighting transport'.
-beasts for packmasters
-clanskryre support teams for core regiments
-assasins for regiments
-plaguecenserbearers for plaguemonk regiments
-warpscrolls? magic items? for heros/champions

some icons.:D

Morskittar (leader_creative/scientific) /plaguemonk/Ratogre/Jezzail/EshinGutterrunner w/skryre upgrades

I have been messing with XML's for skavenciv this weekend. :D
Nice massive errormessages pile at startup. :lol:

(first really free weekend for months it feels like!)
(actually I should have been writing a thesis. but bleh. :p)

Anyhow I feel it has been a productive weekend. Did a dinner and made a batch of eggrolls too!

Some more icons:
(I'm planning to do the major clans as minor-religions.)

Eshin / Moulder / Pestilens / Skryre / SkavenMagic

And some unit icons:

Another Gutterrunner (maybe a sewercrawler-scout) / GiantRat / Poisonwind / ratswarm /Eshin assasin or Nightrunner

YEs I've been really productive... ;)

Blackskaven / LordSkrolk(leader_religious) / Verminlord (deamon) / two generic skaven civ buttons

edit: If any has acces to nice pictures of skaven slaves, I'd be partial to them.
(Otherwise I'll be reduced to putting my tin models on the scanner) ;)


And finally the dreggs:

Darn I've saved these as BMP's. :(

Well the names tell all :

HornedRat / FlagDECAL (Also got a GreyCounsil one) / Tranquol (leader_magical) / alphalayer Hornedrat_icon


(edit2: it might be nice to use the alpha layer to give a bit of colour to the flag... although my civ-colour is grey right now, darkred might be nicer))

I like the buttons so far but they would need a common background(like woodelves/highelves/Empire etc. partially already have). Also what about buttons for units already in the mod?:p

i absolutely Love that "skaven magic" button, very nice :thumbsup: the rest a nice too.

Yeah, very nice buttons:)

Thanx. :D
They are mostly cut/paste/colour and resize images from the armylists or internet.
The skavenmagic icon was alot of fun with lots and lots of filterlayers, it started out as a grey circle. :)

The symbols I did in different hues on purpose, but I could do them all in warpstone-green if you think that is more appropriate.
What coulour of background would you propose?
I mostly chose to add bright filters over the existing background to get more contrast with the dark skaven figures.
Maybe black/green would be best, like the skryre and pestilens and magicicon are.
but I'd have to change the tenue-colour of from green to red for the first icons. not much trouble really. :p

yeh, i say make them all like the skaven magic. i like that alot :D

Okay that is decided then. :) green it is. :goodjob:

Another connundrum I'm facing is the levels of skaven types.
slaves, skaven and blackskaven

Slaves will be a seperate type and may be changed into a fighting worker units.
But blackskaven are not really a seperate class, just more powerfull (and rare).
Should I
A : replace AXEMAN_TYPE with the more powerfull blackskaven.
B : keep them a seperate tree from skaven, with their own SWORDMAN/AXEMAN/SPEARMAN upgrades.
C : Not producable but upgradable from skavenunits. (maybe requiring a promotion or exp besides gold).

I have some arguments pro and con all options but I'll mention those later on.

I prefer "C". Only units with level 4 or higher can be upgraded to black skaven. Fall from heaven uses a similar concept.:)

Ofcourse blackskaven are limited in number 10 to 15 units/civ.

But if we go with C, considder that Stormvermin (Heavyarmour+swords +elite eg RoyalGuard.) are upgraded from blackskaven.

i really dont know. C sounds good but ill wait for my final verdict :)

copy/paste brainstorm-tunnels:

We agreed to try to make it depend on a learned(mining) skill, that gives workers/miners/slavegangs of certain bottomdweller civilisations the ability to build tunnels.
Tunnels will be (if we can) a transport feature/improvement, replacing rails.
They will be invisible to all but tunneler/sappers/'underground' units.
(maybe inquisitors too?)
They can be built outside city borders and even in enemy territory.

Additional tunnelling ideas:
Maybe additional level of improvement would be a 'tunnel mouth', so that troops inside will need to exit.
(free ability: exit tunnels / enter tunnels costs one movement flat)

Units in tunnel-mode,
will be invisible to units not tunnelled.
have LOS of 1.
can attack only other tunnelled units in a connected tunnel (Unless on a tunnelmouth)
Units that can BUILD tunnel, can move one square from an existing tunnel when underground unto non-tunneled land.
sappers can collapse a tunnel or tunnelmouth, without dying. Other units pillaging when inside a tunnel will die horribly.
...maybe collapsing a tunnel can be done within one tile of the sapper, so that they can collapse a tunnel on the enemy within. :evil:
might require gunpowder...nah, simple fire or sabotage will collapse most tunnels.

i dont ever remeber talking about tunnels in the brainstorm thread but then i wasnt really paying attention in the Skaven part of the thread.. lol

but that sounds like a good way to do it :D

You just pasted some material from the private forums to the brainthread and someone got excited about it. I replied and brainstormed some on tunnels.

Like the tunnel design. Hope a programmer says YES too:)

i like it :) but i can only vaguley remember discussing it :p
i hope its possible.

The Skaven book says the legend of the skaven's origins is in the Marshes of Madness. Perhaps a bonus for putting civs in marshes, or letting them? No disease from floodplains, or further bonuses?

Lower population growth requirements, but higer costs in something else (settlers?).

Tunnels WIP? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=172405)

4th post. It sez Olleus is working on python, xml and art. :D

bump.
Half a year later it's still WIP.
'the Lopez' seems to have fallen into the same hole I just crawled out of.
Olleus has other things occupying his mind/time.

Thank the Horned One for his cunning: I at least posted these buttons, all else has been lost. :D

yeh, this upload system is a saint :)

are you still going to give the buttons uniform backgrounds?

Olleus is still with us? lol... man am i out of the loop

i dont htink he is still with us. he gave up and fled

Isn't Olleus still being a big-honcho in the official BtS-mods area?

I'll work on the buttons...I'll have to work from these though as all my resource material was also lost.
(From now on no more references to lost stuff, I promise.)

green-stained glass it was?

ps:
I'll try to upload two pdf's about skaven to my personal webspace. (WHRP_skaven and WHFB_skaven)
Note: these are for reference only and I intend no copyright infringements or distribution of illegal copies of GW materials. That said, I've had major problems uploading stuff to my serverspace, so it may fail altogether.
Especially the first book is very usefull for insights into skaven society and how humans react to skaven. It has some artwork I never saw before too. :D

Skaven thieves guilds/sewers.
I have an idea for the infiltration units for skaven.

[civ3] Skaven guildmaster [civ3]
Can only defend, can explore rival territory, can construct Pilferers guild.

Pilferers guild.
-X :gold:
Visibility of city
Gives taken gold to it's owner.

[civ3] Rat immigrants [civ3]
Can only defend, can explore rival territory, can construct Vermin sewers .

Vermin sewers.
+1 :yuck:
Visibility of city.

These should be not too early and should be countered someway... Let's say, there should be special city impovements like
Ratcatchers' guild
+1 :health:
Negates/have a chance to negate Vermin sewers effect

Thieves guild
+1 :mad:
+3 :gold:
Negates/have a chance to negate Pilferers guild effect.

===========================
Also if the Great district city-planning idea (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6361516#post6361516) is implemented, anti-infiltration buildings will fit great in the corresponding districts.

I dont know about anti-infiltration buildings... but i like those ideas a great deal...

Actually they fix a fundimental problem i saw skaven as having.. ie the fact that they needed to be able to spread rapidly everywhere and anywhere...

Pilferers Guild has just made it into the Skaven special buildings etc section for districts

Vermin Sewers likewise Vermin sewers... i wonder could we create an "underhive" that allowed it to act as a Palace for Skaven in a foriegn city... and even more amusingly could that be expanded to allowing Skaven to build hidden troops in other teams cities?

In a similar vein would Slave Catchers Guild be a decent idea as well? producing Skaven slaves every 5-10 turns which could be sacrificed for money etc?

very good ideas there. i like the pilferers guild a lot. we could use the gypsy wagon mechanics from FfH to implement this.

---
I'd like tomake it impossible to declare war on skaven, and have any peace offering be accepted.
This may sound strange, but skaven can dissapear and no one knows where they go to.
OK the above proposition wouldn't work, but something that allows skaven safety from prosecution.
hidden nationality and invisibility are nice...maybe if skaven can build boobytraps...they would be fairly safe from open agression?
---

How about automatic open-borders for all skaven units?(and invisibility)

Maybe as an effect of having a vermin-stronghold in a city of civ-X.

---
I say have the vermin sewers as an upgrade to a city with normal sewers.
(It 'd just be 'vermin-fested' )

---

The idea of building units in an enemy city sounds interesting, but where get the shields?
Just buy troops with stolen gold?

IMO an 'airlift' function would be more in line with skaven infiltration, moving in troops via underground tunnels. (bit quick though, can the range of airlifts be restricted?)

How would attacking the city work?
Infiltrated skaven units get the city defence bonus instead of the defenders? (minimally citydefence is lost and +50% cityattack)
You'd have to move the skaven ouside the city, then attack? That is weird.
Maybe have a spell 'overwhelm' 'ambush' 'gutter-stab' or something, that gets a skaven unit to attack the weakest unit available and then either die or return to invisible-status?

I'm not sure how the game-mechanics would work with capture-able units that are invisible and able to enter opponent-cities... the normal units able to move into opponent's cities (without open-borders) cannot capture (or battle).

---

anti-infestation:
It is very difficult to get rid of skaven once they are established.
An exterminators-guild or dwarven rat-slayers unit or inquisition/witchhunters may alleviate some effects though.

I like the slaves idea, skaven are notorious for taking human slaves, but I couldnt see any proper use for slave units.
Maybe they can be used to improve tile yields one is on. sacrifice or to produce a slave-specialperson +1shields.

Instead of causing +1:yuck:, let skaven steal food (limiting city growth) this could symbolize skaven stealing food and abducting people. a -1 :) may also be likely for a city terrorized by random dissapearances and killings.

i think an automatic open borders with everyone would unbalance Skaven too much. some special units could have auto open borders but not all.

i agree that an ordinary sewer should be required for Vermin Sewers.

i wonder if building units in a rivals city is possible... it would be very interesting if it is :D

an exterminator unit could be generic for all civs, or roll extermination up into the role of inquisitors?

Well, my idea of vermin sewers was about building it in RIVAL's cities. And you can make it this way: the ratmen immigrants can build vermin sewers only if the rival already made the Sewers building there (so you should decide, to build sewers to make your city more clean but to get a danger of being spied on by the ratmen in it, or just don't build sewers at all).

Aitomatic open borders are really unbalanced, but what is it in fact? In fact it is just an ability "can explore rival territory", and I agree that skaven should have a bunch of units with this ability.
An idea of exterminator like inquisitor gave me another idea - what is ratmen corporation? Can we imagine it like errr... some kind of ratmen population in other cities. So it loses its status as corporation but becomes something new - it's a Guild now, like in FFH. So spreading the skaven-type corporation "underground" (in the meaning of the "Illegal organization") may improve skaven cities influence(culture) and allow certain buildings and bonuses. But the main goal is to spread it to rivals' cities to gain special benefits, like listed above - for example stealing food or gold.

if you make contact with a new civilization using a hidden unit-type,
what happens?

-You get a first contact message from that civ regardless.
-You get no first contact.

This regarding my concerns of skaven being secretive and maybe preferring to remain unknown.

--
ed: Trying to model a giantrat now. damn difficult. :D
changed ears, added bulging eyes. Now to get it 'boned'. sigh. :confused:

Nice model, add texture and animations, and your rat will be the best =))).

don't know how to add animations, but I'll try.
(I think i could borrow animations from some of the animals)
In the meantime should anyone have appropriate squeeky sounds... PM me.

thats great AH!
whats the poly count like? dont look at me. i dont do units ;) (but you could reuse the wolf animations, and for the squeek you could take the sounds from the Skaven units in 'Mark of Chaos' )

Well, my idea of vermin sewers was about building it in RIVAL's cities. And you can make it this way: the ratmen immigrants can build vermin sewers only if the rival already made the Sewers building there (so you should decide, to build sewers to make your city more clean but to get a danger of being spied on by the ratmen in it, or just don't build sewers at all).

yeh, i know the vermin sewers would be built in rival cities. thats why i suggested using the gypsy wagons mechanics from FfH ;)

i was actually thinking about corporations and guilds nad i think Cults would fit better in the corporations for WH, seeeing as were making ordianery buildigns into guilds.

It was actually converted from a wolf unit obj file.
currently trying to get the texture file to wrap around the expanded parts (tail/ears) beter.
Also trying to copy the bones from the model.nif to the effects.nif
(don't want to copy the coordinates one at the time...it is like 20bones!*3 coords)
(I may have to go over to 3dsmax and try via that suite iso NifSkope)

Hey an Idea on the food in hills, If its easier you could just give a skaven only tech +1 food from mines? This could work for Orcs and Dwarves too

better to give it as a racial-bonus
...which I thnk is a promotion and not a tech..or is it both?

anyhow, it would be cool to have (bonuses like mushrooms and blackcorn) that only these civs can use for food.
while the others may get negative bonus from it.

fungus : (forest/hills)
goblinoid: +happy, +2 food in tile, goblin-worker can build squig-farm.
human: -health in nearby city. -1food (herbalist-shop give one extra +:health: for mushrooms, but can that be made local only?)
maybe req. tech-naturelore to make possible poisoned-weapon equipment/promotion.

Maybe this sort of thing is already in...haven't played with orks yet.

I do like that idea...

You could do the same to make lustria and the southlands really good land for Lizardmen and skaven but naff for everyone else.

the bonus need to be able to be cleared though, when the terrain is altered by spell or somesuch.

Here is an idea for skaven city growth. How about when they invade a city they get an option to instead of raizing or capturing it enslaving some people, the city looses one pop and all skaven cities gain X food for X turns? Then if you defeated all the defenders of a large city you could move lots of units 'into' it and gain lots of food, to help those mountain dwelling cities?

better to give it as a racial-bonus
...which I thnk is a promotion and not a tech..or is it both?

anyhow, it would be cool to have (bonuses like mushrooms and blackcorn) that only these civs can use for food.
while the others may get negative bonus from it.

fungus : (forest/hills)
goblinoid: +happy, +2 food in tile, goblin-worker can build squig-farm.
human: -health in nearby city. -1food (herbalist-shop give one extra + for mushrooms, but can that be made local only?)
maybe req. tech-naturelore to make possible poisoned-weapon equipment/promotion.

Maybe this sort of thing is already in...haven't played with orks yet.

i have made Mushroom graphics, im just waiting for dragonia 2 to release thier next patch so i can steal the code for it :D i agree that gobbos, dwarves and skaven should get unique bonuses from them :p

black corn is also a must :D (well, its planned i hope :p)

Here is an idea for skaven city growth. How about when they invade a city they get an option to instead of raizing or capturing it enslaving some people, the city looses one pop and all skaven cities gain X food for X turns? Then if you defeated all the defenders of a large city you could move lots of units 'into' it and gain lots of food, to help those mountain dwelling cities?

im not sure about this. is stealing people a very skavenny thing to do? and then to eat them? (i dont see skaven as a race that enslave people. im probably wrong here though)

From the army book skaven are very much enslavers and every good mod needs at least one team that eats people...

:lol: ok, so skaven are slavers.

so now we have darkelves, amazonians and skaven who enslave... i quite like the idea of needing to take slaves to skaven cities to let them grow (ie sacrificing slaves to boost pop.) this would also encourage them to be agressive like rela skaven. but then this is becoming similar to my idea for undead (using skellies to boost pop)

Kewl, although I have a few idea's for the vamps, fancy a chat on msn? or should a start a new thread?

yeah skaven enslave. it is their main industry.

they eat people, but not solely. (they ate the entire pop of Kazvar, now only known to few as Skavenblight, and they can sometimes consume entire villages)
But I don't think limiting citygrowth is very skaveny. they are RODENTS. multiplication comes naturally to them.

I kinda like the idea of using slaves to (temporariliy) boost the food yield of a tile or production of a city.

I thought civ's could have different yields from various terrain-types?
(give skaven +food from swamps.)
link to fluff and slaves:
"skaven use slavegang in coracles to harvest the blackgrain that grows in the swamps surrounding Skavenblight"

You know if none of them die 2 rats after a year of breading can turn into over 1,000,000 rats, so yeah I agree on the fast breading thing.

P.S. I did assume they were two rats of different genders ;) otherwise you just have two slightly older rats

In the case of skaven more likely one well-fed rat. ;)

Skaven also sacrifice slaves to the Hornedrat. (humans/goblins,dwarves and elves are not the only slaves, the majority of skaven are slave too.)
skaven are opportunistic, they perform raids onto the surfaceworld for free food, slave and luxury gods. (but only if they expect little resistance)

skaven HWF-RPG sourcebook contains much info!
just found a nice idea dark-lores of Plague, Stealth and Warp with corresponding spells.

Real male rats eat their own babies too you know, anyways I your right they are opertunists...

It would be so easy to represent in civ2 with the multiple maps that linked, I remember fondly goblin raids that I couldnt fight against. I had to fortify soldiers on the tunnel entrence, oh those were the days...

Here is a bit of a farfetched idea;
How about the capital for each skaven clan it blocked in by mountains sea and swamp (is swamp impassable to most units?) But have most skaven units much weaker than normal units, but can use tunnels like has been discribed to teleport so they can leave or can move over mountains allowing them to attack and be oppertunistic but it would be vurtually impossible to wipe them out, although you could kick them out of all but their starting city they would always have ways of comming back or picking on unsuspecting workers, weakly defended towns etcentra...

So their units are weak but they attack your weakest points, evening you out really.

How would you conquer the world? there would be no way to 'win' the game.

I was only brainstorming, I dont mind if ya don't like it but if you do like the idea other than that flaw then I am sure we can find a way around it, it just takes some creative thinking:

Sending troops in boats
A spell to allow troops over one mountain square
Late game Assassin units being allowed to use skaven tunnels
Dwarven mercenaries
Allowing the skaven to build roads over mountains after a certain tech, once they get the tech they will cause their own downfall and so on and so forth)


I just thought it would reflect the fact that they are bloody hard to get rid of.

EDIT; How about instead of giving them lots of extra food you could just have it so that each citizen only eats one food (at they are half starved little buggers), again just brainstorming :)

sure, sure.
I'm not convinced total isolation is a great idea, it tends to isolate.
Brainstorming is good.
We need some good ideas to prevent skaven from being attacked by blatant force (without carefull planning).
to reflect their secretive (and unknown) nature.
isolation and thus less expansion may force skaven to invest into infiltration more. :)

edit: one food per population...we'd have to test if it is playable and balanced. I've proposed it before, but can't remember the discussion anymore.

---
non-overt warfare is skavenlike.
(Always have a fall-guy, never get caught. Lie!)
invisible units that have hidden nationality would allow this.

Skaven Raiders.
invisible spell: ('hide' unit is invisible for one turn.?)
can capture workers to make slaves, pillaging improvements can yield slaves,food/gold-loot.

(maybe make slaves/loot a carryable unit to make them invisible too)

If city has skavenlair in sewers or other skaven outpost:
-all skaven units in city are hidden.
-allows 'skaventunnel' airlift
(untill tunnels are implemented, this is reversed, I'd like to have a
tunnel connection as prereq for skaven infiltration)
-enables some abilities of special units.
-skavenraiders can make 'raid' on city
if succesful: one of 1)all food is stolen,
2)one population is lost (! citylevels are not linear) + slaves
3)steal localcorruption*civ.gold/civ.#cities

have seprerate units for these actions and ratsewer etc req.?
i.e.
-have ratsewers+pilferers + any infiltrationunit: can perform steal treasury
-have ratsewer + skavenslaversgang: can perform slave-raid
-have eshin-gutterrunners: can perform spread-terror etc
-eshin guildmaster: establish local contacts (intrigue with locals) : allows interesting things, such as revolts etc.

I have lots of other ideas for skaven infiltration stuff.
I need to write them all down and make them logical and not overpowered.

How about using the Apostolic palace effects as the 'council of thirteen' to try to unite our 3 skaven clans?

Interesting...tell me more.
how does that work?

I dunno I just thought of it then.

I guess it would work the same as the apostolic palace, but only skaven teams would be involved. You know how the council is trying and failing to unite the backstabbing little sods, anyways once we have time to work on nicities we could even try to write some of our own resolutions for it;

but it would be asking them to stop fighting each other, to team up on other factions, open borders that sort of thing...

United Rodents then. ;)

-Clan Skryre has devised a new infernal device: build something to trigger it.
or build buildingX to protect cities vs lichtmagic earthquake.

that sort a thing?

Nice button and yeah, that sorta thing.


If we could get unique event triggers for each civ too that would help, in my last game one of my Dwarven brides married an Orc!!!

One of my hobgoblin maidens maried an ogre, it lead to an international incident.

Real male rats eat their own babies too you know, anyways I your right they are opertunists...

It would be so easy to represent in civ2 with the multiple maps that linked, I remember fondly goblin raids that I couldnt fight against. I had to fortify soldiers on the tunnel entrence, oh those were the days...

Here is a bit of a farfetched idea;
How about the capital for each skaven clan it blocked in by mountains sea and swamp (is swamp impassable to most units?) But have most skaven units much weaker than normal units, but can use tunnels like has been discribed to teleport so they can leave or can move over mountains allowing them to attack and be oppertunistic but it would be vurtually impossible to wipe them out, although you could kick them out of all but their starting city they would always have ways of comming back or picking on unsuspecting workers, weakly defended towns etcentra...

So their units are weak but they attack your weakest points, evening you out really.

Hmm it's nice if you play on pre-defined map, but if all the skaven units would be too weak, they would be unplayable on custom maps I like (I like the randomization factor).

There's no point to make them weaker in common, they should be balanced (i.e. a giant rat swarm can overhelm a horde of swordsmen easily if they'll be too many ^^). Also ratmen are not worse than men in the art of combat, and in the art of sneaky combat are much better.
So the idea of mountains+swamps+weak units comes to scenario ideas, where you shield them with mountains and restrict them from using strong units.



By the way, the icon of rat swarm and the rat model "Arexack_heretic" is working on can be used for many purposes.
For example, a giant rat as it is can be used for "Giant rat pack" weak unit, but fast to build.
At the same time the same model tinted in green color and with more rat models per unit can be used to represent the rat swarm, which builds Vermin Sewers we were talking about in rivals' cities.

The idea about "tech" and their special units - there can be a Skaven nation wonder linked to their pre-tech (so not avaliable to others) which represents the dark gloomy tunnels under the world and allows the units to move from city to city, similar to teleportation gates for mages.
Well, there's another idea about it - if you don't want to make "a teleportation gate tunnels" for all, you can make a high-tech unit like shadow molerat expedition, which acts like aircraft, in fact that it can rebase on long distances (only in cities) and acts like a transport, so it looks like this special expedition transports your troops using dark tunnels under world and shadow magic, but actually you can always limit the range they can reach.

good ideas, keep ém coming! :D

I was thinking of having the giant rat as an animal in wastes and forests swamps.
packmasters being able to capture them + have breedingpit required to build them.
maybe have packmaster 'carry' it's charges.

ratswarms: ? why make them green? just make them small and more.
(we need to create a 'swarm'formation?)
swarms can do quite some damage, 'they are many' thus tough to kill. they have free movement.
maybe code something that allows to combine swarms together into more powerfull swarms.

good ideas, keep ém coming! :D
ratswarms: ? why make them green? just make them small and more.
Well the RAT SWARMS able to build VERMIN SEWERS must look different from usual, I wrote this. Usual swarms shouldn't be green.
And about vermin swarms - they should not be totally green of course, but a bit tinted I mean to represent their :yuck: nature and so player could distinguish them among other rat swarms.

we could use the city sickness effect over the vermin sewer rats to distinguish them rather than colouring them green...

Does no-one find it strange we are discussing using normal rats to found a skaven presence in a city?

What is wrong with a gutter-runner establishing a presence?

--
cosmetic idea: change termites in "have devoured agriculture" event with "swarms of rats"
the log already states "pestillence has struck X agricultural lands"

What is wrong with a gutter-runner establishing a presence?

theres nothing wrong with it :p i actually like it better than normal rats.

cosmetic idea: change termites in "have devoured agriculture" event with "swarms of rats"
the log already states "pestillence has struck X agricultural lands"

good idea

What is wrong with a gutter-runner establishing a presence?
Nothing wrong. Just as I offered to use skaven guildmaster to find a pilfirers' guild, and rat swarm to infect their clean sewers if they're built :).

Better to call it by o more accurate name than rat-sewers

use infiltrator misions to increase influence or skaven religion is city ->
sacrifice infiltrator to build
skaven-warren (req.skaven influence+sewers)->stronghold (req warren)->undercity (reqstronghold)

to represent the large effort needed to build a district secretly in a foreign city, require sacrifice of a skaven great-general or expensive guildmaster unit.

maybe not require sewers in later stages of game by sacrificing a 'molerat-steamer'.

great-general
-.-
Don't think so. GG means you should make a lot of wars to get them, and if you want a "sneaky" presence and diplomatic victory within small territory, it'll be almost impossible to complete. Also it may require to sacrifice a great spy/engineer, but not GG I guess... Generals are good on the battlefield, not under city =).
The unit idea is better.

Don't think so. GG means you should make a lot of wars to get them, and if you want a "sneaky" presence and diplomatic victory within small territory, it'll be almost impossible to complete. Also it may require to sacrifice a great spy/engineer, but not GG I guess... Generals are good on the battlefield, not under city =).
The unit idea is better.
I agree with Deon, a great Spy would be more logical. (make skaven palace produce great Spy points)

Yeah I know. :rolleyes:
What I meant was "one of those special person guys".

Skaven Spells:


Collect Warp Token:
grants the caster the warp token promotion if they are on a warpstone resource. (arp tokens are required to cast skaven spells)

def reqWarpToken(caster):
pPlot = caster.plot()
# if pPlot.getBonusType(-1) != gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_WARPSTONE'):
# return True

Skitterleap:
identical to the Spell 'Escape' that Hawks cast. placeholder.

Warp Lightning
deals 30 - 45% lightning damage to 1 enemy stack adjacent to the caster. requires 1 warp token.

Vermintide:
deals 20-30 % physical damage to all adjacent enemy units, and pushes them away 1 square. requires 1 warp token

Plague:
Grants all units adjacent to the caster (including skaven units) the 'plagued' Promotion and deals 15- 30 poison damage to them. requires 2 warp tokens.

Pestilent Breath:
deals 60 - 80% posion damage to 1 enemy stack. requires 2 warp tokens.

Death Frenzy
all units in the casters stack gain the Deat hFrenzy promotion. +1 movement, +50% strength, ignore first strikes, cause fear, immune to fear, immune to capture. unit dies at the end of the turn if they do not attack. promotion removed after combat. requiures 3 warp tokens

im going to add another spell that causes a city the be affected by the 'Plague' the same as what appears in the Rhyes and Fall of Civilisation Mod. but that will require the merging of the whole Plage mechanic from Rhyes to WH. does anyone have any idea which files are used for the Plague mechanics?

I think I see your problem the code says if caster.plot.bonus ISNOTEQUALTO bonustype.WARPSTONE return TRUE.

The idea was to allow when on a resource yes?
try using

while unit.blabla == blabla.string:
return TRUE

:confused: i have honestly no clue about python. all the things i change work through trial and error, i have no idea about pythin syntax. can you be more specific than:
while unit.blabla == blabla.string:
return TRUE
please? :p

(how do you know "caster.plot.bonus ISNOTEQUALTO bonustype.WARPSTONE return TRUE." doesnt the '=' sign mean if the plot is Warpstone? :lol:)

== is called an operator and means = in normal math terms,
X = Y is used to create instances of object X with the value Y (any type of data from simple strings or a number value to arrays of objects)
there are operators for any type of math or conditional statements,
X == Y : X equals Y
X != Y : X not equals Y
X -= Y : X is X-Y
X *= Y : multiply
etc. There is an entire wiki on python which is very usefull at times.

I made an error before: the return statement is always returned when a method is finished, so we need to have it's value variable, because there is only one return per method.
The while also wouldn't work, because it would keep the method running, never returning a value untill the unit left the plot and the condition became false, returning in your case True, which is false. :P.

This should work I think:


def reqWarpToken(caster):
# pPlot = caster.plot()
# warpstone = False
# if pPlot.getBonusType(-1) == gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_WARPSTONE'):
# warpstone = True
# else:
# warpstone = False
# return warpstone

awsome, thanks for that run down AH :p

i feel slightly less n00bish now :blush:

thanks for the code btw, ill see how it works out now

you might want to look into python conditional flow.

def methodname(parameters):
[create container objects to improve readability, and linking to other outside values]
if someconditionis == true: [condition]
[do this stuff, can change value of objects for example]
elif:
[do other stuff]
else:
[if all else fails...]
return
[need not have a value, but callback functions generally want some feedback, if this method was imbedded in another function this value could be used as imput]

be carefull with local objects, it is easy to mistake it.
you can give a locally defined object the value of a global-object, but this does not mean you are actually changing the global object.
you can use the local.object in conditional statements, but to change the global.object, you need to call it itself.
ie
GC = globalContext(iUnit) or whatever, creates a local object GC which has the properties of globalContext(iUnit), but changing the values of GC in a methiod only changes the value of GC in that method, not it's mother-object.
to change values in the global context into the value of GC, you'd need to do globalContext(iUnit) = GC.

I think. ;)


===

Could we give Grey Seers a free single token value of warpstone?
they are really powerfull mages favoured by the chaos deity of the horned rat and only use warpstone to further increase their power.
Maybe give them normal casters power, but use warpstone token to allow double casting?
Plague priests are actually also greySeers. Monks not so, but they often carry warpscrolls, powerfull cursed magic.

Skryre warlocks are dependent on warpstone for their magics, that is perfect.
warp lightning / random alien spells

For the Skryre warmachines it might be better to just have requirment of the resource to build/upgradeTo though. (warpfire/poisonwind/jazzail/warpcannon/doomwheel/doombell etc)

---
hmmm items :yum:


I like the current magic-mechanic better than the books,
but books can still be very powerfull items, granting spells normally not allowed to the caster/civ.

Could be a very cool class of quests, like the dragon hoard:
"Nagash has a library filled with dangerous arcane knowledge, which he is abusing in abominable ways. The Arch-Traumaturge urges your majesty to put an end to this mad-man's atrocities. Collect those tomes and deliver them into our safekeeping."
-Have the tomes studied. - freetech:necromancy/become more evil/possible civwide unhappyness as the church incites unrest.
-Lock the tomes away safely. req. traumaturgy library. +happy civwide

scrolls can be nice items to have normal units cast a spell... at a cost.

you might want to look into python conditional flow.

Thanks for that AH, that REALLY cleared up a lot. i feel like i was stumbling around in the dark before :p

Could we give Grey Seers a free single token value of warpstone?
hmmm, good idea, but im not sure how. let me play around some more this the tokens.

Skryre warlocks are dependent on warpstone for their magics, that is perfect.
The Skyre Warlocks was what i was basing these spells off. they wont be represented by a civ in the game so i thought why not make them the units:
Skyre Warlock
Skyre Warlock Lord
Skyre Grey Seer

hmmm items :yum:
i agree :drool:

I like the current magic-mechanic better than the books,
but books can still be very powerfull items, granting spells normally not allowed to the caster/civ.
like the Libre Bubonicus. im planning on making that an equipment for the skaven. i was going to make it so that any caster who has it can cast all skaven spells, and not require warp tokens to do so. perhaps also a small boost to spell damage...

Could be a very cool class of quests, like the dragon hoard:
"Nagash has a library filled with dangerous arcane knowledge, which he is abusing in abominable ways. The Arch-Traumaturge urges your majesty to put an end to this mad-man's atrocities. Collect those tomes and deliver them into our safekeeping."
-Have the tomes studied. - freetech:necromancy/become more evil/possible civwide unhappyness as the church incites unrest.
-Lock the tomes away safely. req. traumaturgy library. +happy civwide

scrolls can be nice items to have normal units cast a spell... at a cost.

I also agree with this.

what would you say to me asking if you would look into the Equipment mechanics in FfH and finding out how much work would be rewuired to merge that with WH? im a bit tied down with this minimod at the moment, and im also working on fialising my map with Kai's help for the Rhyes mechanic (which Masada is looking into :p)

i really need to make a to do list...

Already tried this with the warlords version and FfH, but then I had to retroengineer the whole FfH magic-mechanic into WH and that proved too much. :(

I'll promise to look into it.
It's too yummy to leave lying around, someone will pick at it eventually.

What version of FfH are we basing off actually? (so that I know which to pick apart)


First I'd like to get that giant rat model working though.
hmm 3dmax has completed DL. :P

---
Ooh!
are ranged attacks possible for the AI at this time?

I'd like Jezzails to have a 'use warptoken to kill one [person] 2-3 tiles away',
where [person] is a group of unitclasses that represent a single person or a character with retinue.
As just a free ability it would be far too powerfull.


---

Problem with the GreySeers is, they do not belong to any clan,
they are priests of the Horned Rat.
They mediate between clans and interpret the will of THR and the only skaven intrinsically capable of magic.
So they should not be in an upgrade path from the skryre warplock engineers, who are magical madscientists.
Also because they are rare, Let them appear as (cultural/magical?) greatpersons instead of being built?

skryre-
warlock mechanic
warlock engineer
warlock master engineer

could it be done, so that these can learn spells from enemies?
Maybe by infiltrating a city with a college, when a promotion is due.
[promotion: esotheric research, requirement to use another civ's magical colleges for magical-promotion prereq.]


********
poop.
3dmax esca versiona Italiano, no comprendo me-o. :( :mario:

What version of FfH are we basing off actually? (so that I know which to pick apart)

well its based of Pre Shadow (i think version .25? ) but the equipment thing is only in Shadow, which is why i havent doe it already. i dont know how merging mods works :p

First I'd like to get that giant rat model working though.
hmm 3dmax has completed DL. :p
yeh :D i cant wait to see him

Ooh!
are ranged attacks possible for the AI at this time?
well, im not too sure about AI, but i havent noticed them using any of the ranged spells ive made :(

Problem with the GreySeers is, they do not belong to any clan,
they are priests of the Horned Rat.
They mediate between clans and interpret the will of THR and the only skaven intrinsically capable of magic.
So they should not be in an upgrade path from the skryre warplock engineers, who are magical madscientists.

Ok. i think maybe we could make grey seers a Skaven replacement for Great Priests?

warlock mechanic
warlock engineer
warlock master engineer
could i get some buttons for those? :D

3dmax esca versiona Italiano, no comprendo me-o. :mario:

whats your troubles with 3DSMax?

that code you posted dosnt allow the caster to collect warp tokens at all now. :( perhaps we need a different mechanic for this?

I'll find some engineers for you.
As a placeholder, you could use the pistoliers icon.
and the skryre-hero button (i think it's being used as leaderhead)

lets see I got you one plague priest, (Greyseer replacement Pestilens)
and one Greyseer (with horns staff and flaming sword)
possibly SeerLord Tranquol, but he's not too good.
I'll see to more.

skitterleap Im not sure about the look, but I think I ll base it off a jumping assasin.
deathfrenzy, maybe a skaven foaming at the mouth. or a red-eye. with skull image overlay.

my problem with 3dsax is that itis in Italian, can't read that too well. It looks like a complex enough program without mystery options.

my problem with 3dsax is that itis in Italian, can't read that too well. It looks like a complex enough program without mystery options.

Italian!?! :lol: is there no option to change the language?

Don't think so... if there is I can't read it. ;)

Got some more buttons done , that only leaves the 'deathfrenzy' spell.
I will upload buttons in organized archivefiles. (later)

new: 'warpstone meteorite', 'skitterleap', "rodofcorruption", 'seer-warlock'

---
generally:
All units will have to be replaced by rat-men units, but basically
skaven foot-units move 1/3rd faster.
skaven uits are relatively cheap to build.
skaven have no cavalry or archers,
skryre specialist troops will have to compensate fo this lack.

I'm thinking that maybe most skaven units will be available to all. but at a highercost.
n.b. Eshin assasins and infiltrators will be available to all, but at 150% the build cost.
or should we just use 'normal scouts' for non-eshin skaven in this example?

skryre warplocks can carry spells produced in a city, in case of miscast:
spells have a 1/2 chance of malfunction, malfunction means 1/2 death of spellitem, 1/2 spell cast on self or random target.

skryre infiltrators can capture spells at unallied universities.

Skaven greyseers are great prophets and these are capable of great magics, without need of items.


Eshin :
invisible scouts, that upgrade to infiltration units.
gutterrunners,nightrunners, assasins with poisonous weapons.

pestilens:
plaguemonks are touger than normal troops.
-plaguemonks with plaguepromotion get a bonus.
cencerbearers-massive collateral destruction + causes pestilence. (carried by plaguemonk units.)
'Plague Cauldron' siegeweapon.
religious building that generates +:happy: per :yuck: in city?

Moulder:
-better beast-handlers, slavers
-free breedingpit in capital.
-can have more rare monster units than others.

specials:
Liber Bubonicus (pestilens spellbook)
Vile Cauldron- Pestilens national project- when finished unleashes a virulent plague in all cities of one chosen civ.
Cauldron of a thousand poxes (pestilence national unit) can bombard city, causes plague.
Rod of corruption: some horrible pox upon the enemy
Eshin assasination : kill opponent leader, anarchy for 3 turns, 'new' leader with random traits generated.
Moulder Pit:
can mutate units in city. -can cause death, may transform into moulder-beasts, most just get mutation promotion, casting mutate on a mutant may create a chaos spawn.
Seer-stone(seers only)
fell-blade : increases unit power, and causes negative heal on carrying unit.
dwarf gouger: +1S, +2/2 firststrikes vs dwarves
Sacred standard of the horned rat.

skryre warplocks can carry spells produced in a city, in case of miscast:
spells have a 1/2 chance of malfunction, malfunction means 1/2 death of spellitem, 1/2 spell cast on self or random target.

Spell casters dont carry books or such i nthis version ;)

other ideas look nice. im sensing a farvortism for Pestilense though?;) :p

I was thinking it might be appropriate for skryre warplocks.

Pestilens is more flavourfull. :)
can't really think of many eshin specialties, unless sneakyness will be severely limited to the other two factions.
same for moulder. beasts, that's it. nb trying it out, but animals suck in combat, so really only the monsters built are worth much...
maybe captured animals and slaves can be mutated at the pits as mentioned in the previous post.

Some ideas were discussed in the WH-mini-mods thread.
need to copy them.


----
I'm currently into XML editing, so
I'll re-upload the icons in an ordered fashion today.

-= here =- (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/102073/skaven_buttons_feb08.zip)

stuck with this entry. there is a bug in it, but I can't see it.
Its a "tag: 1 error"
<!-- error tag: 1 here
<ImprovementInfo>
<Type>IMPROVEMENT_SKAVEN_HARVESTING</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_SKAVEN_HARVESTING</Description>
<Civilopedia/>
<Help/>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_WATER_WORKED</ArtDefineTag>
<PrereqNatureYields>
<iYield>1</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
</PrereqNatureYields>
<IrrigatedYieldChange>
<iYield>1</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
</IrrigatedYieldChange>
<bActsAsCity>0</bActsAsCity>
<bHillsMakesValid>0</bHillsMakesValid>
<bFreshWaterMakesValid>0</bFreshWaterMakesValid>
<bRiverSideMakesValid>0</bRiverSideMakesValid>
<bNoFreshWater>0</bNoFreshWater>
<bRequiresFlatlands>1</bRequiresFlatlands>
<bRequiresRiverSide>0</bRequiresRiverSide>
<bRequiresIrrigation>0</bRequiresIrrigation>
<bCarriesIrrigation>0</bCarriesIrrigation>
<bRequiresFeature>1</bRequiresFeature>
<bWater>0</bWater>
<bGoody>0</bGoody>
<bPermanent>0</bPermanent>
<bUseLSystem>1</bUseLSystem>
<iAdvancedStartCost>30</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<iTilesPerGoody>0</iTilesPerGoody>
<iGoodyRange>0</iGoodyRange>
<iFeatureGrowth>10</iFeatureGrowth>
<iUpgradeTime>0</iUpgradeTime>
<iAirBombDefense>5</iAirBombDefense>
<iDefenseModifier>0</iDefenseModifier>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iPillageGold>5</iPillageGold>
<bOutsideBorders>0</bOutsideBorders>
<TerrainMakesValids>
<TerrainMakesValid>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_MARSH</TerrainType>
<bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
</TerrainMakesValid>
</TerrainMakesValids>
<FeatureMakesValids>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_MUD</FeatureType>
<bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
</FeatureMakesValids>
<BonusTypeStructs>
<BonusTypeStruct>
<BonusType>BONUS_BLACK_CORN</BonusType>
<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
<iDiscoverRand>25</iDiscoverRand>
<YieldChanges>
<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
</YieldChanges>
</BonusTypeStruct>
<BonusTypeStruct>
<BonusType>BONUS_TOAD</BonusType>
<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
<YieldChanges>
<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
</YieldChanges>
</BonusTypeStruct>
</BonusTypeStructs>
<ImprovementPillage/>
<ImprovementUpgrade/>
<TechYieldChanges>
<TechYieldChange>
<PrereqTech>TECH_IRRIGATION</PrereqTech>
<TechYields>
<iYield>1</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
</TechYields>
</TechYieldChange>
</TechYieldChanges>
<RouteYieldChanges/>
<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>
<bUnique>0</bUnique>
<iAppearanceProbability>0</iAppearanceProbability>
<iVisibilityChange>0</iVisibilityChange>
<BonusConvert>NONE</BonusConvert>
<FeatureUpgrade>NONE</FeatureUpgrade>
<SpawnUnitType>NONE</SpawnUnitType>
</ImprovementInfo>
-->

<bRequiresFeature>1</bRequiresFeature>
dont you need to specify the feature? ie FEATURE_MARSH here?

no, the <bSOMETHING> signifies it is a boolean value, i.e. true(1) or False(0).

It seems that a lot of your tags seem to be in different spots and include other tags that dont exist, at least in the version of warhammer I have. The code might think that one of your tags with a 1 in it is actually another tag that can't have 1 for a value

i think thats the case with the miscast tag and the immobile tags in the spells. the immobile tag is supposed to render the unit the spell was cast on immobile by putting a 1 in it, but the spell always miscasts if i do :s

Then why don't you try switching the positions of the miscast and immoble turn tags?

i honestly have no idea how to. i fear that it would take far too long and am not that adept at XML :blush:

You could use a Find/Replace in notepad to change it

thats very true. but then the game would come up with a "could not load because theres something im not expecting in the wrong place." error.

you can't alter the positions of xml tags without editing the sdk as well. But you definitly should check if all tags are in the correct order(match the xml schema). You typically get a clear errormessage about that from the game though.

So, like I'm saying for all the other civs, could you please list the UUs and what units they replace? Thanks.

that has not yet been fully decided upon.

I was thinking about the warp token discussion that you guys had earlier. I do not know whether or not you are going to implement this or not. Here is my idea. Maybe you could have the Skaven mages have a cargo value of I donno, between 1 and 5. This would allow them to carry warp tokens which could themselves cast some sort of buff affect, such as improving their spell strength, boost their caster level by one for each token that "casts". Give the mage a chance of death for each warp token and let the skaven spells fly baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was thinking about the warp token discussion that you guys had earlier. I do not know whether or not you are going to implement this or not. Here is my idea. Maybe you could have the Skaven mages have a cargo value of I donno, between 1 and 5. This would allow them to carry warp tokens which could themselves cast some sort of buff affect, such as improving their spell strength, boost their caster level by one for each token that "casts". Give the mage a chance of death for each warp token and let the skaven spells fly baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thats a great idea. needs some fine tuning but i think it holds promise.

use the tokens as I imagine scrolls potions and charms would be used...the AI might be able to use that much more reliably. :D
And avoids lots of extra work. :thumbsup:

you guys are planning on having items a la FFH2 right? Then AH's suggestion makes more sense. Oooh I can't wait to nuke scores of my own mookish skaven mages.

'scrolls' buildable in cities with access to warpstone would be nice. different scrolls would take longer to build, and would probably need a wonder similar to the tower of the eternal wood.

...DL...??
I was actually agreeing with you, not trying to provide an alternative concept...
I probably mis-understood your idea.

Your idea was to have the warptoken-item have an one-use spell that affects the sorceror carrying it?
(with varying degrees of success/failure, as all warp-relatedthings are)

several can be carried (as magical items) and thus more than one can be used in a given turn.

use 1 : if hascast, 75% reset bHasCast if >0,
else 75% spell power small buff,
25% caster is stricken with ...something bad.
use2: (has L1-buffpromotion) additional chance of 'bad stuff', but also better buff.
use 3 : odds add up to chances of something disastrous happening.
etc

some buff ideas wear off after casting, some automatically after 1or more turns etc

'something bad' can range from death to warpspells affecting caster to mutations.
or just a spellfailure and damage.

---
Are there benefits of using items over using promotions for the tokens?
The promotion mechanic is already written for the most part.
Hmm Maybe if the AI cannot get it's casters to collect tokens by spell, maybe producing items that will be converted to promotions upon pickup will work...

the current system for skaven warptokenmagic:

any skaven spell requires a certain number of tokens and should remove that number of tokens when cast.

a skaven caster needs to cast 'getToken' on a warpstone tile (not sure whether cities with acces to the WS-resource work too, need to test that. or add it if not)
the caster then gains a tolen-promotion, a second 'getToken' will bump this up to add a 2nd warptoken promotion.
(there afaics are no limits based on casterlevel), (token2 or 3 do not require a token 1 or 2, which i find strange, but if it works... second '?' is that tokens are disspellable.)

--
So, if I understand correctly sentiments go out for a new system, that does

a) require no longer the tokens to cast a spell, but will use them instead to buff chances of success and temporarilly increase caster power.
This would mean, even if the AI ignores them, it has a base chance of success anyhow, which we can easilly bumb up. (cheating AI is the norm in civ)

b)builds tokens as an equipment-unit.
With an additional step of complexity also adds potential problems, but problems we are commited to overcome: "we require items!".
also fun: other civs may acquire tokens and use them. :D

will we use carried-item-units concept or Ffh-style equipment promotions as now implemented for keeping track of unused carried tokens?

...thinking...

The Council of 13 have a -6 diplomacy modifier if you have warpstone ("you use warpstone" blah). Rather odd from a warpstone munching race. How about a -1 modifier instead - "You use warpstone and dont give us any"?

The Council of 13 have a -6 diplomacy modifier if you have warpstone ("you use warpstone" blah). Rather odd from a warpstone munching race. How about a -1 modifier instead - "You use warpstone and dont give us any"?

didnt notice that, and i also noticed that civs that use warpstone still have -tive relations with anyone wlese who uses it. im not sure how to fix that.

the negative modifier is normal, even for skaven,
that warpstoners give eachother a neg modifier is a bit odd though.
I'd like to have skaven largely ignored politically though.

edit: ah, you mean the counsil is complaining about you having it...better give it to them then. ;)
it would be better to get the modifier only when actively mining the resource - with a refinery - or
when using units that require warpstone.

About that other problem:
"you are using warpstone".
"no I'm not, we just live on top of a cursed pit"
"Never mind, we want that too, perform any death rituals your race requires."
how about a national wonder/ritual to get rid of any warpstone in a civ for ever?

About that other problem:
"you are using warpstone".
"no I'm not, we just live on top of a cursed pit"
"Never mind, we want that too, perform any death rituals your race requires."
how about a national wonder/ritual to get rid of any warpstone in a civ for ever?

Oh yes, that would be nice. Was high elves, and built a city (unknown to me at the time) that it sat on a warpstone. By the time I found out, Ooops... :eek: there goes politics out the window... :lol:

is everyones brightstone still turning into warpstone when they build a city next to it?

Yep. But it doesnt happen to the ai... Araby has a city built on brightstone, and another has it in a mine in its fat cross.

that is another resource issue.

The get rid of warpstone option would be too powerfull if ALL warpstone was removed for ever. Either all WS for a limited time, or one warpstone for ever...maybe a great person can construct a 'seal' or 'vault' improvement on top.
...do normal unmined WS also yield the negative diplofier IF worked inside a city radius?

anyway, let's get back on topic. :p
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189020&page=6
(posts #116-117)


current state of concept:
(1) build tokens in a city with a refinery building.
(!) copy/paste takeEquipment methods from FfH2.
(2) casters can take a warptoken.
(!) add addToken/removeToken methods, which checks for the token#-promotions already on the unit
then adds/removes one accordingly.
(3) caster can consume token,
to recharge hasCast or to increase spell power (adding warp-power# promotion for one turn, then removing it). Chance of success is 75%. caster.removeToken()
(!) failure mode is up for discussion and balancing.
currently I think the lake of despare has a nice mix of badstuff to copy.

edit: maybe dump the whole step 1 and make warptokens available to casters at cities (and other warpstone sources) in return for gold.

didnt notice that, and i also noticed that civs that use warpstone still have -tive relations with anyone wlese who uses it. im not sure how to fix that.

Would it be hard to have the Skaven AI demand warpstone resources on pain of war?

From the background in the RPG they will trek far just to get little pieces of it because they cannot really use magic that well w/o it. Yeah I saw that other evil civs like you a little more if you have warpstone.

in leaderhead there are these tags:

...
<StrategicBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>NONE</StrategicBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>
<HappinessBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>NONE</HappinessBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>
<HealthBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>NONE</HealthBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>
...
<iBonusTradeAttitudeDivisor>0</iBonusTradeAttitudeDivisor>
<iBonusTradeAttitudeChangeLimit>0</iBonusTradeAttitudeChangeLimit>
...
<iAttitudeBadBonus>0</iAttitudeBadBonus>
...
<iAttitudeBadBonus>0</iAttitudeBadBonus>
...

in traits:
...
nothing usefull.

AFAICS You can set a leader to get angry if denied a demand for one of 3 types of bonus...health, happyness and strategic, there is no provision for singling out a specific resource to demand.
you can set it's demand theshold:

...
<DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold>ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS</DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold>
...

Plus there are several entries in the contacts and memory that apply.

I'm not going to do touch leader behaviour anytime soon though.
Maybe religion tollerance could be finetuned better, they're all -100 for other or +100 for same now. (xept for DE who are 50/50 on chaos/elf) Rather intolerant lot.

Maybe the Skaven should have a happiness bonus for warpstone, as well as the +1 unhealthiness w/ the Cursed Pit.

can be done through buildings, not through leaders.

I'll limit WS mining to a special improvement only buildable by skaven (or maybe at an evil-only TECH_WARPSTONE_REFINEMENT)
this will limit the resource effects (yer using WS/resource itself)to those that really want to mine it specifically and leave only the bonus effects (sickness, unit chance of mutation) for those that cannot/wantnot.

building a mine on top should then no longer reap the resource, but just production bonus.
About the pit...dunno. I like it, but it might continue to disrupt relations.

ps Do all warpstone spawn monsters or just the pit etc?

can be done through buildings, not through leaders.

I'll limit WS mining to a special improvement only buildable by skaven (or maybe at an evil-only TECH_WARPSTONE_REFINEMENT)
this will limit the resource effects (yer using WS/resource itself)to those that really want to mine it specifically and leave only the bonus effects (sickness, unit chance of mutation) for those that cannot/wantnot.

building a mine on top should then no longer reap the resource, but just production bonus.
About the pit...dunno. I like it, but it might continue to disrupt relations.

ps Do all warpstone spawn monsters or just the pit etc?

Warpstone is a powerful resource that all civs would try to get (remember Mordheim?) *sigh* I should probably not bother contributing to the forums cos my information is more or less RPG based...Warpstone can be used as a substitute for ANY magic item/spell component (i.e. you need Khaine's tears OR Warpstone.)

GUYS especially Ploep what background info is being used?!?

I know.
but there have to be rules or a game won't work.
It has been decided not to use a magicalpower currency, and no spell components are required except for the resources.

The things sorcerers do and the things a civilization will admit to doing are two things.

All in all warpstone is dangerous stuff, unstable and unhealthy.
Its like using a nuclear reactor to power an aiplane....sure it is powerfull and it can be done...however only a few power mad minds would considder doing it.
...such as chaotic sorcerors and necromancers (maybe a few evil ones too if insane enough)

I'm using any information I can find and making the rest up so it will work conceptually in the game.

I know.
but there have to be rules or a game won't work.
It has been decided not to use a magicalpower currency, and no spell components are required except for the resources.

The things sorcerers do and the things a civilization will admit to doing are two things.

All in all warpstone is dangerous stuff, unstable and unhealthy.
Its like using a nuclear reactor to power an aiplane....sure it is powerfull and it can be done...however only a few power mad minds would considder doing it.
...such as chaotic sorcerors and necromancers (maybe a few evil ones too if insane enough)

I'm using any information I can find and making the rest up so it will work conceptually in the game.

Honestly, all civs would mine Warpstone. I would keep the negative/positive diplomacy modifier, perhaps this system needs refining but remember Mordheim people.

i like the idea of having a warpstone refining tech that anyone can research, but make it not part of the normal tree, like a dead end detour, (or for skaven make it part of an important branch of techs)

and i dont think ANY civ would use warpstone, certainly not woodelves, and i highly doubt lizardmen would see any use in it.

as for RPG information being 'useless', its an important source of material, especially for that material that the tabletop game does not cover, such as Cathay, Araby and other minor civs. however, for the major civs id rather stick to normal warhammer stuff, over RPG stuff :)

I agree totally with you P_L, on all three counts.

Sounds good. I'll remember to try to use those resources over RPG then in my discussions.

As a general rule most civs wouldnt use Warpstone... certianly none of the Old World Human civs... it does have a habbit of killing people near/around it... Skaven seem to be somewhat immune to its effects.

And since its from the Chaos moon its well Chaotic and not terrribly well looked upon by anyone opposed to Chaos... if they know what it is anyways.

Well, most of the warpstone is in Chaos areas anyway.

not really, Mordheim in the empire was demolished by a Warpstone Meteor, its now near sylvania and the vampires. i expect the more insane necromancers would enjoy harnessing its powers, but doubt the empire would liek to use it.

Yes, but wat I meant was the main people who use it are the Chaos sorcerers and the Skaven. And necromancers. Lovers of Chaos, basically.

Huh, wierd thought. Why don't the DE use warpstone? Any reason?

because there is none in naggaroth. simpel really. the chaos wastes are too dangerous to wonder into, not even the DE go there.

I know that. I jus find it wierd. Very wierd. Hey, it would be cool if when the Skaven trade you warpstone (provided ya can convince em to, good luck) that you can make warp tokens too. Tho, that might be improbable to implement, since the mechanics of makin it work would be a bit*h and the Skaven love warpstone like a fat boy does food.

i think only skaven would ever make warp tokens. well probably make the skaven AI want to hoard Warpstone anyway.

perhaps if we get UHVs like in rhyes we could make a skaven victory condition to control all sources of warpstone in the world. or at least n sources where n is a number.

Hmm...that sounds interestin, the victory thing. Yes. Hm...I'm not sure if I like or dislike it. I'll say I'm neutral on it. Mainly cuz I never really cared bout Skaven.

i like the idea of having a warpstone refining tech that anyone can research, but make it not part of the normal tree, like a dead end detour, (or for skaven make it part of an important branch of techs)

and i dont think ANY civ would use warpstone, certainly not woodelves, and i highly doubt lizardmen would see any use in it.

as for RPG information being 'useless', its an important source of material, especially for that material that the tabletop game does not cover, such as Cathay, Araby and other minor civs. however, for the major civs id rather stick to normal warhammer stuff, over RPG stuff :)

Thats true, lizzies have no use for it BUT they do have those really cool gold tablets everyone would like to get their hands/claws/hooves on. I like the idea of a Warpstone Domination victory...heh would get me off my furry but and out into the brave new, err and old world to find it.

they do have those really cool gold tablets everyone would like to get their hands/claws/hooves on

what does that have to do with warpstone i wonder? (and theyre stone tablets iirc:p)

There tablets of the Old Ones... most of them are probably on irrelevant rubbish but the Slann use everything to divine the Old Ones great purpose... i can see them directing skinks to examine Old One dropping to try and figure out what plants should be propigated in increasing numbers and what animals should be encouraged...

And they come in all sorts, Obsidian, Gold, Silver, Copper, Jade, Stone etc.

coprolites. :(
get your own thread on that.

Let's start a thread on the Lizzies and include coprolites or put them in an existin Lizzie thread. (Is there even a Lizzie thread? I'll check.)

I had an idea about how the Skaven could incorporate their rank bonus to combat resolutions - they are wussy by themselves but in a stack they are rabid, bolstered by their numbers. A lone Skaven unit has the "I can get picked off at any time / cowardly" promotion, which gives like - 20% strength. Whereas if there are at least 4 Skaven units in the stack, they get the "bravery in numbers / rabid" promotion, which gives +20% to their strength. So alone Skaven can be picked off by the enemy, as they should. But a rabid hungry pack will be more of a problem, as they become quite courageous ;).

Strength in numbers. Applies to Skaven and Greenskins imho. Maybe Chaos too. (Dependin on how ya look at Chaos.) That could be a promotion for both Greenies and Skaven.

thats a great idea for skaven, i wonder how difficult it would be to implement...

Ah, but the skaven are the masters of strength by numbers. With their fertility and maturity rate (not to mention their short nonnatural lifespans) and vicious upbringings (just hope you are born black, white, or grey)... That and you get alot of them together, they go from weak easybeats to rabid cheeseaddicts. :nuke:

If you want to see how, roll in a bottle of whiskey into a AA meeting, say... Now imagine if a dwarf held that whiskey, and all the rats in the room wanted it. Watch them crawl over each other to get it, swarming over their own to even get it. The dwarf will be torn to shreds in seconds.

That and their leaders consider them expendable. "Better them than me" :goodjob: philosophy, and the good old famous line from Braveheart, "but we will get some of theirs as well..." Ah the joys of watching your apponent when you fire the warpfire thrower THROUGH your unit to cook their unit... (pray to the Council of Thirteen that luck is on your side and you fry more of them than yours...)

Might not be too difficult to implement, however last time 'strength in numbers' was suggested, fear of 'doom stacks' lead to it being violently being outvoted.

the bonus need be from units of any (rank and file)type.

alternative idea:
how about joining rank-and-file units to simulate this bonus?
ie you have 2 units of spearskaven, sacrifice one to get a 'file' promotion on the second, or maybe sacrifice both to create a double strength (numbers) unit.
Possibly requiring a standard or champion in one unit.

this would require several double, triple sized unit duplications, but that is not much trouble once the mechanism is decided on.
Problem I can see with this idea is the resulting unit losing EXP.
This can be mittigated by having requirements and free promotions in the resulting combined unit.
(req0 : 2 units of same type, req1: champion, req2: musician.)

...
or just sacrifice fresh recruits to add a rank-n-file promotion, adding extra survivability flanking power. the promotion is lost when the unit is forced to flee from combat.
negating damage from first strikes are an option too (sacrificing the promotion)

Eh. I'd rather just give them weaker units, and food and military production bonuses, and maybe bonus to war weariness (they don't care so much about hordes of rats dying).

Remember also that this is at the regiment level; skaven regiments just represent a whole lot more individual models relative to human or elven regiments.