We should have a dedicated communication thread to not spam up the turn threads.
BCLG100@hotmail.com[/email].

Kind regards
BCLG
And our reply:
Greetings, Aloha

I am the foreign minister of the Innovians and on behalf of my team I greet you in friendship. I hope that we will be able to trade with each other in peace.
Your warrior should feel welcome to look around at our sorrounding lands and we'll offer him a night's rest after his long journey.
If you need to contact me the best way is by the team account or by PM at CFC.

Theoden
Foreign Minister of Innovia

Aloha sent this message back:
Hey there Innovia

Your offer of shelter in one of your great cities sounds very tempting, how about we agree to an open borders deal so our warrior may partake in this?

We are curious to know whether during your travels you have come across any other teams, or whether your days have been spent as lonesome as the lonely pineapple on the shore of Aloha beach?

Kind Regards
BCLG
So what do we say? Do we want an open borders agreement? And should we tell them that we've met Loco, or should we pretend that Aloha is our only contact?

Open borders will protect our worker from assault. I'd say OK because I can't think of a nice way to refuse.

"We know not of pineapples, but we do know loco, and a disagreeable group that call themselves barbarians.

Sirian’s Eyes is welcome to stay and rest, this world would be much too large and dangerous without friends to help each other out. While your warrior enjoys the hospitality of our lands will you please give us guidance so that we may visit and enjoy pineapples on the beach of Aloha and counsel so that we may know the defenses of the barbarian city you have just passed?”

And should we tell them that we've met Loco, or should we pretend that Aloha is our only contact?

They have met Loco too, so they can see that we've met them.

I agree, open borders is the safest way to go and will open up for further negotiations. So I propose something like this:
Your warrior is most welcome to seek shelter inside the Innovian borders. It bears the name of the Creator and a messenger of the divine should never be left outside our doorstep in the hostile wilderness.

You ask if we know of any other teams. Yes, we have met a civilised people calling themselves Loco and a rather uncivilised people that we like to call barbarians. Speaking of barbarians, your noble warrior didn't by any chance observe the barbarian city to the east closer? The Innovian people would be very grateful if he could share his knowledge about the city and its inhabitants while he is enjoying Innovian hospitality.

Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia
Comments?

Message sent, since there were no comments.

Its decision time, the ROP is in our box. Can we defer it with a note asking if we are still on good terms?

We have gotten no response about their foreign contacts and nothing about the defenders of the barb city.

Some thing like this:

"You are interested in passage through our territory and we are eager to welcome our friends but why has our friend not responded to recent diplo about the nature of our common enemy in the barbarian city or their other foreign contacts?"

Sounds good.

Proposed reply (I don't know why I'm being so polite, I could also just have written "you tell us the info first, then we give you open borders" in a blackmail style message. :lol:):
I must regret to inform you that our president sent your emissary with the open borders agreement away, because we hadn't yet received an ambassador with an acceptable deal.
Granted, this despotic government form that we are stuck with is bound to be ineffective in these matters. So we were wondering why we haven't received any message from our good Alohan friends about whether your noble warrior would like to stay in our lands while he tells us of his recent adventures around the barbarian city? Such a helpful reply would overcome this little government problem.

Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia
Comments?

I must regret to inform you that our president sent your emissary with the open borders agreement away, because we hadn't yet received an ambassador with a message that the deal was acceptable. an acceptable deal.

Granted, this despotic government form that we are stuck with is bound to be ineffective in these matters. So we were wondering why we haven't received any message from our good Alohan friends about whether your noble warrior would like to stay in our lands while he tells us of his recent adventures around the barbarian city? Such a confirming message would make certainly help us helpful reply would overcome this little government problem.

Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia

A few changes just to highlight the fact that this is a deal and we expect something in return.

You're right, I wasn't stressing enough the fact that it is a deal and not just an empty enquiry that they can disregard. Original message is edited.

I was just about to send the message but then we got this from Aloha:
Greetings Innovia

Our Warrior has not yet been able to see inside the barbarian city, our great leader robi d has let him sit awhile upon a hill to recover his strength, then in an offer of friendship we've decided to send him in to have a look at what is there and report back to you about it shortly. We hope this will lead to further co-operation in the future.

We were interested in knowing whether your capital or any of your cities were positioned on the coast so as to encourage trading in the future?

Yours Faithfully
BCLG
Changes the situation a bit, eh? Needless to say, I didn't send our proposed message...

Just answer Yes to the last question?

BCLG says they haven't gottan a reply from us yet. Do we just want to know what is in the city? If so, then I'd say tell them we are on a coast.

Sorry, I just had a killer day yesterday with too much to do. I've written a reply now, and sent it, since it says exactly what you guys proposed:
Greetings Aloha,

We thank you for your generous offer. The Innovians will greatly appreciate the information on the barbs that you're sending your brave warrior out to retrieve.

As for coastal cities, we have several cities with access to the ocean, and we hope that we'll be able to trade with you as soon as possible, so that we may both prosper.

Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia

On the ocean trading thing, maybe we can entice them to tell us where they are, given a coastal route has to be scouted.

It has to be scouted by only one team, so if they see our coastal cities (and a direct line of coastal squares towards it), the trade route is made.

Reply from Aloha:
Greetings Innova

Our great warrior is returning from his foray into the barbarian lands and wishes to tell the people of innovia what he has found but everytime he is refused admission into the houses of the Innoverian people, he humbly requests open borders so that he can spread the news?

We were also wondering whether you had any idea of the location of loco in comparison to yourself?

Regards
BCLG
Why haven't we accepted the offer of open borders yet? We signed such an agreement with them.
And should we tell them about Loco that we just discovered the position of? Or should we say that we're still searching? I wonder if this is a test of our honesty and that they already know from Loco that we have discovered thier location. :hmm:
I think now might be a good time to show our goodwill and get good relations when opportunities like this one show up.

Why haven't we accepted the offer of open borders yet? We signed such an agreement with them.
And should we tell them about Loco that we just discovered the position of? Or should we say that we're still searching? I wonder if this is a test of our honesty and that they already know from Loco that we have discovered thier location. :hmm:
I think now might be a good time to show our goodwill and get good relations when opportunities like this one show up.

Last time the ROP came up we rejected it asking for info on the barb city as a test of their trustworthiness. Now they say they will give the info in exchange for passage, but the number of barbarian archers in that city was never the real issue.

Clearly there are some trust issues here. They are very dodgy, always asking for information from us without offering anything in exchange. Now they want us to tell them were Loco is but they haven't even told us how to find their own cities. Open borders doesn't do us any good anyway. It only benefits them and they appear to be asking favors of us before we grant it.

In the first contact they asked if we meet anyone else (they did not offer if they had other contact) and we told them of our contact with Loco.

In the next exchange they asked if we had any costal cities (they offered no information) we told them we did.

We told them we would let them in if they told us of the barbarian defenders, now they say “let us in and we’ll tell you.”

This relationship is going down hill. We need to send a frank message to them of how one-sided this conversation appears to us. They can then decide if they want to fix things or reveal their true intentions.

ok well our information from the barb city will become obsolete so you might want to get a move on with that (accepting open borders)

Why don't we show some trust first, I don't fear Aloha.

IMHO we should give them the open borders and then try to get information from them. I think that they will tell the info about the barb city once we give them OB and giving it to them would you present ourselves as diplomatically unreliable.

I will wait until the poll is done before drafting a reply.

I think we should give them OB. It's a small friendly gesture, just keep an eye on them. Besides, this whole diplomacy thing could be grounds for their reasoning to make an early push in our direction. Friendliness, not naivety though, would be our best bet at this stage of the game in my opinion :D

I think they might be getting tired of the time we take to decide, but we'll really disappoint them if we don't make open borders at all.

Proposed reply (the poll was 3-1 in favour of open borders):
Greetings again Aloha,

We've been experienceing administrative problems with the open borders, as we are stuck with this inefficient despotic government. Next turn, however, there should an ambassador coming your way with the official agreement.

In the meanwhile we might as well prepare our trading ships to the trade that we will be doing with your cities once the agreement is in place. Can you give us some directions as to which corner of this world that your great nation occupies?

Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia

Simon is a pretty straight shooter. If he trusts us, we can go a long way. I'd be honest with him and answer his question.

I've been talking a bit with Simon (BCLG100) over MSN about the game, the contact was pretty good.

I've been talking a bit with Simon (BCLG100) over MSN about the game, the contact was pretty good.

Please post a log, if you have one.

Aloha is about to receive the turn with our offer, so I have sent the message since there were no complaints. :)

The logs are often the best part. :D

Please post a log, if you have one.

I'll post a log next time (I disabled auto-logging, I prefer freedom), but we didn't say much, just that I had started a poll about the issue, and that we would probably offer it after the poll had finished.

Okay, looks reasonable so far. Just be careful not to get into the habit of answering questions from them without receiving our own answers from our questions to them first. That might start to give them the impression that we're weak and easily manipulatable, and might make it trickier to keep the relationship an even-sided one in future. (Though I must say I don't know much about BCLG100 myself, so I could be wrong and he's just a decent bloke who is merely curious. :) )

I'm going to post the following in the Loco thread too:

Epsilon has the look of a runaway, and we can't tell if they are working with Piffle to achieve that or if they're sitting on some prime real estate and doing it themselves. As we saw in the pitboss, a runaway can grow to the point where a challenge becomes impossible, even for several civs in an alliance. Add on that the apparent pitboss winner DaveMcW is Epsilon's honcho (though BCLG looks to be a clear 2nd place so downplay this a bit), and it doesn't take much to figure out where this game is going if we don't do something about it.

We need to aim for a 2 or 3 team alliance to challenge Epsilon's growth. We won't be able to do much about the land situation, but a tech alliance can at least keep up so we're not hopelessly outgunned when the time comes. I would like to propose a long-term agreement for non-aggression and planned research to avoid wasting beakers on overlaps. We at least have more than enough land to expand for the forseeable future.

Taking our neighboors land would be another way to counter Epsilon, though. Just as DaveMcW said about the pitboss game:
Really, the only way to counter my assimilation of 3 civs (RegentMan, Theoden, Saladin) was to assimilate 3 civs of your own. Or peacefully combine 4 civs into one permanent alliance with a predetermined winner.

We've already tried suggesting a tech alliance to Loco. Maybe we should suggest it to Aloha instead?

DaveMcW was a brilliant Civ III player. It does not surprise me that he has studied Civ IV and is a master here as well. I think we need to get everyone into a anti-Dave alliance. It may be the only way to beat him.

21 November:
CFC Civ 4 MTDG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just an informal approach.

I noticed you guys had alpha. So a couple of questions

1. Any interest in a hunting - mysticism trade?

2. If yes would you be interested in a more encompassing tech trading arrangement.

All the best
Robi D

It seems we agree on accepting their offer so how about:

Hi Aloha,

We have discussed your offer and come the conclusion that these terms are acceptable to the Innovians. Formally we agree that:

Aloha will give Innovia the tech of Hunting
Innovia will give Aloha the tech of Mysticism

As for your proposal about a more encompassing tech trade arrangement, do you have any specific ideas? We can't commit to a full-scale tech trading arrangement right now, but we're open to any suggestions.

If there are no protests I'll send this tomorrow.

The trade looks good.

What about the second portion of their offer? What kind of tech trading agreement wouls we want with Aloha?

Let's wait with commitments until we've met everyone.

What about the second portion of their offer?
I agree with dutchfire, we should hold back a bit with the long term tech agreements. I'll add a neutral answer to the question.

edit: updated suggested reply to Aloha.

(Post number 2000! Sigh...)

Update...

Before I sent our reply to Aloha, BCLG asked for a chat to discuss the deal(s). We're about to arrange that chat.

I have a few questions to the team though:
How much of a tech trade arrangement are we willing to agree to, if at all?
How do you log conversations in msn? :blush:

Which version of msn do you have?
You could just select and copy the whole chat off course, but auto-logging is easier. But I think you need some plugin for that.

I'd say agree to nothing in chat. This isn't like the ISDG where three teams survive. Only one civ will win here so I'm against any meaningfull long term comitment with a neighbor. Besides they benefit more even from even trades because they have more trade partners.

Even if the deal included them not trading techs away to others? And remember they don't have Alpha yet so it is possible that we are the only ones with whom they can trade techs.

Which version of msn do you have?
You could just select and copy the whole chat off course, but auto-logging is easier. But I think you need some plugin for that.
Version 4.7. I'll search for possible plugins, but just copying shouldn't be much trouble anyway. :)

Chat conversations can include proposed terms but should always be under a caveat that only email treaties are binding.

A long-term agreement to research different techs and exchange equal values would be beneficial. Make the no trading techs acquired in trade to another team bi-directional and time limited, i.e. "The team who originally researches a tech shall have first opportunity to sell that tech to a 3rd party, for the first 5 turns after the tech is researched. After that period, either party may sell to a 3rd party." and fill in the length of time we want techs to be protected. The key is to make it bi-directional otherwise they'll smell a rat and decide not to trade with us.

We're dead if we end up the odd team out with no trading partners. This game could come out 2v2v1, and the 1 is dead meat.

I would still like to see a 3 team alliance, at least until Epsilon have been knocked off the top of the leader board.

What about: we go to CS, they go to machinery, we'll both get macemen.

So this chat never happened right?

Well, he suggested the casual way of just cathing each other online at some point, but I haven't been able to do so yet. :( I'll have to try to arrange a specific time for the chat it seems...

edit: chatting now...

Ok, I've just had the chat and here's the chatlog. I'll post an analysis later.


Simon siger:
hey
Simon siger:
its bclg btw
Mikkel siger:
hey bclg/simon
Simon siger:
am offline because doing a term paper at the same time
Simon siger:
but figured we've been waiting too long to do this chat so may as well get it going, if you've got the time?
Mikkel siger:
sure
Simon siger:
ok *shuffles notes*
Simon siger:
so how goes things in the land of innovia?
Mikkel siger:
excellent, the shrine is bringing happiness everywhere
Simon siger:
nice one on that
Mikkel siger:
yep, being philosophical is very nice
Simon siger:
indeed, you gonna go with a philo economy then?
Mikkel siger:
not sure a this stage, we haven't got the pyramids..
Simon siger:
no, though the pyramids arnt essential for it, they do help quite a bit
Simon siger:
you thinking of taking a crack at the pyramids then?
Mikkel siger:
well, they double the science output of sceintists with representation
Mikkel siger:
probably not
Simon siger:
yup, the double really helps but if you've got enough food you can just add more scientists
Mikkel siger:
I just experienced in gotm12 how powerful it is... was getting modern age techs every 2-4 turns and will probalby get the cow award
Simon siger:
awesome, nice one
Mikkel siger:
but how about Aloha? how are you doing?
Simon siger:
we're doing pretty well, in the process of giving each other christmas presents
Simon siger:
im not opening mine till christmas day but robis got a cigar and BH has a sailing boat
Mikkel siger:
a boat? that's a rather large present
Mikkel siger:
I think I'll entice my team to give presents as well
Simon siger:
ah, well BH claims his avatar is of a meteor hitting the earth so we shall just claim size isnt important
Simon siger:
lol, how many active players you got over at innovia-sometimes you seem to have struggled with the save
Mikkel siger:
probalb around 6-7...
Simon siger:
oh well thats pretty good still
Mikkel siger:
and BH's avatar is a meteor if you look at the larger version in his sig... I though it was a UFO before that
Simon siger:
been speaking to people from other teams doesnt seem to be as much interest (maybe thats the wrong word) in the civ4 mtdg
Simon siger:
aye, i know just a running joke
Mikkel siger:
how many active player are you?
Simon siger:
hmmm
Simon siger:
well robi plays the save
Simon siger:
im not totally sure tbh
Simon siger:
we had a poll and people were voting saying they wernt active....
Simon siger:
so i think the coconut juice must have gone to their heads...
Mikkel siger:
it's hard to find out how active other teams are, when you can only see their president oposting publicly...
Mikkel siger:
how can you vote that oyu aren't active?
Simon siger:
yeah, though me and rob tend to spam up the main bit quite a bit
Simon siger:
and yeah thats what we were wondering
Mikkel siger:
you would have to be at least semi-active to see the poll.
Simon siger:
lol exactly
Simon siger:
but *shrug* spose we have upwards of 5 at least
Mikkel siger:
well, it usually comes down to a few people who takes the initiatives... in civ3 mdtg I we had problems finding a president willing to play the save...
Mikkel siger:
in team TNT
Simon siger:
yup- i was the one doing it in the end
Mikkel siger:
oh wait, we were on the same team
Simon siger:
watching your civ get pummeled aint very fun
Mikkel siger:
nope, not at all
Simon siger:
anywhoo, back to the civ4 mtdg
Mikkel siger:
*ahem* yes
Simon siger:
what you thinking about loco?
Simon siger:
(i assume you met, as we met them near you)
Mikkel siger:
(I assume you knew we knew them because it's visible to you in the F4 screen)
Mikkel siger:
they take along time responding to diplo, but otherwise they're hard to describe. Have they traded with you at all?
Simon siger:
No, as FM im trying to keep things cheefull but the delays inbetween diplo means that patience is soon lost amongst some members of the team
Simon siger:
i can only assume its because they dont have many vet mtdg'ers on the team
Mikkel siger:
I konw exactly what you mean
Mikkel siger:
so they've kinda rserved towards you as well?
Mikkel siger:
so they've been kinda reserved towards you as well?
Simon siger:
yes, we havnt had contact in over 3 weeks
Mikkel siger:
hmm, seems like they are a good candidate to be on the wrong side of a 2 vs 2 vs 1
Simon siger:
the only drawback is, aloha has no idea where they are
Mikkel siger:
but you know where we are
Simon siger:
indeed
Mikkel siger:
hmm, would you perhaps be willing to give us directions on where to find Epsilon or Piffle if we gave you directions about Loco?
Simon siger:
we'd love too
Simon siger:
if we say knew where they were
Mikkel siger:
well, it was worth a try...
Mikkel siger:
but have you met either of them?
Simon siger:
no, have you?
Mikkel siger:
no, but still searching
Simon siger:
aye as are we
Mikkel siger:
how about possible tech trades?
Simon siger:
we'd be very wiling to do that, it seems that, epsilon and piffle must have found each other by now
Simon siger:
so i can only assume they will be working together (just my view not the teams)
Mikkel siger:
I guess so, and in worst case they already have a tehc alliance
Mikkel siger:
(also just my view)
Simon siger:
exactly, so we'd be very willing to consider working together in terms of tech trades
Mikkel siger:
well, that'd leave Loco out in the cold
Mikkel siger:
and my team seems positive about the idea of a tech coorperation as well
Simon siger:
yup, which i personally have no qualms about however to prevent a 3 on 2 we should either eliminate them or get them onside
Mikkel siger:
exactly
Mikkel siger:
(adn I wasn't having qualms, only cynical after thoughts)
Simon siger:
lol
Simon siger:
well in terms of tech right now i think you have alpha and myst
Simon siger:
while we have metal casting and hunting
Mikkel siger:
and math
Simon siger:
ah yes and math
Mikkel siger:
just amoment, I'll check the tech costs
Simon siger:
In the game Alpha 429 beakers, Maths is 357 and MC is 643
Simon siger:
myst =71
Simon siger:
hunting=57
Simon siger:

Mikkel siger:
okay
Mikkel siger:
so a mysticism-hunting trade would be somewhat fair, although a bit on your favour
Simon siger:
yes, however what we were considering is this deal
Simon siger:
we are researching sailing now
Simon siger:
thus a tech swap, you give alpha and myst-we give math and sailing?
Simon siger:
its an equal beaker swap
Mikkel siger:
I'd have to ask the team about that,they seem very reluctant to trade away Alphabet
Simon siger:
understandable
Simon siger:
however you could put a stipulation on it that we arnt allowed to trade it on?
Mikkel siger:
of course
Mikkel siger:
but if I might suggest another possiblity, we'll have CoL soon which we'll happily trade away (i think)
Simon siger:
hmmm, whats the beaker number of that?
Mikkel siger:
dunno, checking...
Simon siger:
ok cheers
Simon siger:
bout 50ish more than alpha probs
Mikkel siger:
7/6 times Alphabets cost according to CFC
Simon siger:
sorry?
Simon siger:
ah right nvm i understand
Mikkel siger:
501...
Mikkel siger:
after calculations
Simon siger:
well dont forget we do have MC
Simon siger:
which is 643
Simon siger:
i cant honestly say about a CoL trade as id have to speak to it with my team
Mikkel siger:
would CoL and mysticism for MC b considered?
Simon siger:
every deal would be conisdered
Simon siger:
however i do think that would be rejected
Simon siger:
my team mates are as reluctant to trade away MC as you are alpha most likely
Mikkel siger:
I just doubt that my team will trade away Alpha any time soon, but it never hurts asking
Simon siger:
yup indeed
Mikkel siger:
but how about math, sailing and hunting for CoL?
Simon siger:
i know any trade involving alpha will probably involve my teammates looking more favourably upon any deal with MC involved
Simon siger:
i shall propose it
Mikkel siger:
I suppose my team would be more ager to trade alpha if MC was involved also
Mikkel siger:
*eager
Simon siger:
understandable
Simon siger:
we should try and get these deals sorted soon so we can build a tech alliance to outspeed the other teams
Mikkel siger:
yes, and I'm sure that if we make a more long term tech alliance, the willingness to trade critical techs would be larger
Simon siger:
yes, well i think my team would be quite willing to do one
Mikkel siger:
just out of curiosity, are planning to build colossus or making a machinry->crossbows rush with MC?
Simon siger:
there've been some very loud calls for colossus build within the team
Simon siger:
but we hadnt even thought of an MC rush mainly because from what we can tell we are too far away
Simon siger:
by the time we got too you you'd have grenadiers.
Mikkel siger:
lol, yes we have the same thoughts about that
Simon siger:
i think if we organised one big tech deal- say alpha/CoL/myst+another tech worth about 200 beakers (i think my maths is right) for MC, math, sailing and hunting
Simon siger:
would probably lead to everone being happy
Mikkel siger:
yes, but that would have to involve some kinf of "not trading away those tech" clause
Simon siger:
indeed
Mikkel siger:
but one big deal sounds good to me, that would be a huge advantage for us both
Simon siger:
though also i assume you have at least one of the techs after myst?
Simon siger:
well that could make up some of the beakers owed
Mikkel siger:
we'll need priesthood and med/poly to research CoL, I can't remember if we have priesthood yet
Mikkel siger:
and we have poly as might have guessed
Simon siger:
lol yes, oh right so your not that close to CoL then?
Mikkel siger:
just a moment I'll check the team forum...
Simon siger:
ok
Mikkel siger:
I can't find it, but I think we'll start priesthood next turn and then CoL, but we're teching pretty fast
Simon siger:
ok nice one
Simon siger:
we get sailing in 4
Simon siger:
not so sure where to go after that
Mikkel siger:
we'll have to somewhat coordiate our reserach
Simon siger:
yes, well now we know what your researching we'll probably work around it
Simon siger:
if we take what we've got back to our teams now we can work up tech deals and research plans etc
Simon siger:
and then have another chat after christmas perhaps?

<then my computer freezes up just at this perfect time. :mad: I manage to return it to function without having to reboot and lose the log...>

Simon siger:
but i should probably shoot off now and get this essay done
Mikkel siger:
my comp just froze up
Mikkel siger:
but discusssing agian after christmas after discussing it in the team forums is fine to me
Simon siger:
ok cool
Simon siger:
well ill see what the team says about the CoL swap
Simon siger:
if yours fancy doing the alpha-math+sailing thing
Simon siger:
then just drop us an e-mail
Mikkel siger:
probalby not, but I'll suggest it to the team anyway
Simon siger:
but ive been lounging about too long, need to get some work done
Mikkel siger:
see ya
Simon siger:
speak to you another time
Mikkel siger:
and I ought to write my paper now as well..
Simon siger:
lol, enjoy
Mikkel siger:
gee, thanks

Do you know BCLG well or something, that was the friendliest chat I've ever seen.

Did he say Aloha hasn't meet Epsilon or Piffle yet? That sounds very strange.

A large tech trade sounds intreuging...especially since it leaves Loco out in the cold and open to an attack from us.

Can we work these deals over in a new thread please?

Excellent job Theo. :goodjob:

Do you know BCLG well or something, that was the friendliest chat I've ever seen.
Nope, I don't know him well, although we were on the same team in the civ3 MTDG. I guess we're just both friendly and relaxed personalities. ;)

I was also surprised that he said they hadn't met Piffle or Epsilon yet. Maybe they're both west of us where we haven't explored very far yet?

I'll start a new thread about the possible deals tomorrow. (too late now here to post anything coherent)

*cough* we've got a temple so we must have priesthood. We used the temple for priest specialists.

alphabet and polytheism do lead to the GLib, so we need to make sure they won't be able to beat us to it in any case.

Theo, since you seem to have such a raport with the Alohains could you let them know that we have just offered Polytheism for Sailing.

They still have Math(357) and Metal Casting(643).
We still have Alphabet(429) and Meditation(114) 3 turns to Law(500) and Civil Service (1144) and Masonry right after(114).

Maybe ask how they would feel about Math + Metal (1000) for Alph + Law (929). We can aford to toss in Meditation or Masonry too.

Done, although I offered them alpha+CoL+priesthood, since they wouldn't be able to get CoL otherwise. ;)

Done, although I offered them alpha+CoL+priesthood, since they wouldn't be able to get CoL otherwise. ;)

Good idea, as usuall. That also makes the deal almost even since Priesthood only costs 85.

325 Bc turn 102 Aloha offered Math for Alph, but I'm not into that so I refused. In two turns we'll have CoL and we can offer the deal Theo suggested.

Did you see their message?
As far as the trade goes we agree to the proposed deal.
We would like to add 1 condition. That any techs received can not be traded to a 3rd team.

I have sent Alpha for Maths
then next turn Priest for MC
then CoL.

All the best
Robi
Seems like a reasonable way to me, since we're trading prerequisite techs in this deal.

Ok, looks like I screwed up. I accept or resend if necessary next turn.

300 BC turn 103

offered Alph for Math

We just got a message from Aloha:
greetings

we recieved an offer from team piffle to trade math and CoL with them for Civil service, naturally we informed them that we couldnt due to the stipulation placed on CoL by both teams. However we ask that we can trade it and then offer CS to you for a discount price.

regards
BCLG
What do we say? We have to decline the offer as we'll have CS in 1 or 2 turns anyway.

Also, we now know that they've met Piffle, that's good information.

How about they trade Iron Working to us now and we will give them Lit in say 6 turns. If they agree to this rather lopsided deal we will give them the rights to trade CoL.

Iron and Lit are the same price, but not really of equal utility especially if we have a lock on the Great Lib.

maybe it would be even better if we give them some way to trade CS from us so they don't develope any relationship with Piffle.

I like the idea of making them get CS from us.

I don't think we need to convince them so much about a Lit-IW swap. We won't be able to use IW against them anytime soon, and they Lit could still be very useful for them even if they have guessed that we're shooting for the GL.

Let us trade them CS, keep Piffle out!

Well Iron is worth 200 and CS is 800 so lets just found what they are reseaching next and thay can just owe us the difference.

I would be straight with them and say we'll have CS in two turns and would like to trade with them at that time. We want to keep our tech alliance together and strong.

chat with BCLG (Simon) and Me (Skieën was geweldig)

Skiën was geweldig zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
hey
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
about the MTDG, we expect to have CS in about two turns, so we could trade it to you too
Simon zegt:
your innovia right?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
yep
Simon zegt:
ah k cool, in exchange for what?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Well, CS is quite expensive, so a suggestion made in our team forums was CS for Iron Working and another tech in the near future to make it about even
Simon zegt:
ok i'll just check what we're working on
Simon zegt:
IW and monarchy?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
I'll report it to the team forum
I can't go making deals on my own here
Simon zegt:
yup no worries
Simon zegt:
do you have monotheism?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
I don't think we've got it yet
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
no we don't
Simon zegt:
ok, well IW, mono and monarchy
Simon zegt:
that equals about 620 beakers
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
That's 620 beakers tota
Simon zegt:
and CS is 800
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
did the calculations myself too
Simon zegt:
lol nice one
Simon zegt:
well i think you owe us some beakers from the last tech swap
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
*checking what other trades we had*
Simon zegt:
do you have med/poly?
Simon zegt:
that big one for CoL/MC etc
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
this was it right?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
"I have sent Alpha for Maths
then next turn Priest for MC
then CoL."
Simon zegt:
yep
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
alpha(300)+priesthood(60)+CoL(350)=710
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Math (250)+MC(450)=700
Simon zegt:
hmmm was there another tech?
Simon zegt:
calendar?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
I don't think we've got calendar already, I believe we're still getting culture from obelisks. I could be wrong though, haven't checked the save in a while, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere
Simon zegt:
ok well we do have calender also
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
that one is 350
Simon zegt:
yup
Simon zegt:
so we could trade that to you, however then you would owe us 200 odd beakers (i think)
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
yeah, and we'd miss out on some culture, so we've got to check that too
Simon zegt:
well i dont think we'll have calendar for a few turns
Simon zegt:
(nor monarchy+ mono for that matter)
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Well, I guess we've both got to report back to our team forums, so let's do that first, I think we've got most possibilities covered now, and then we'll email you with our offer in a few days
Simon zegt:
k doke sure thing
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
btw if you include Calendar, you could also exclude mono? that would make the difference 80 (right?)
Simon zegt:
not really because mono is the pre req for monarchy
Simon zegt:
unless you have priesthood?
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
yes we have, we've traded it to you and we needed it for CoL
Simon zegt:
ah right k
Simon zegt:
well ill pass that one around too
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
btw you've met piffle right?
Simon zegt:
yup
Simon zegt:
once you get IW, you'll see something v interesting on the map btw
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Do you know if they're in an alliance with Epsilon or something like that
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
iron??
Simon zegt:
its do with that yes
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
we're they ahead of you (us )
Simon zegt:
its hard to say, epsilon obviously are in the lead and piffle were pretty much proposing a three way
Simon zegt:
between you us and them vs epsilon
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Did Sirian place it in an interesting position
Simon zegt:
lol- im not gonna give away what it is, you have to get the tech off us first
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Everyone versus Epsilon? Who knows, could be our only chance
Simon zegt:
well we didnt talk so much about loco
Simon zegt:
i dont know if its just us but they seem hard to work with
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
We'd have to meet them first though, but we're sending a warrior to the north east (i suppose that's were you are), can we meet them that way?
Simon zegt:
im not sure how we met tbh, i was away when it happened
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
They aren't responding to us most of the time either
Simon zegt:
but i think it was by boat
Simon zegt:
and yes we're north east of you
Simon zegt:
not very north though
Simon zegt:
but quite a bit east
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
have you seen our warrior coming NE?
Simon zegt:
no
Simon zegt:
or at least not that i know of
Simon zegt:
recently we've had a bit of barb trouble
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
good luck with that, at least it'll give your troops some experience
Simon zegt:
yeah, handy in that way
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
it's now near some ivory
Simon zegt:
hmm from memory we have ivory nowhere near us
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
well, we aren't that far away from home yet , it took you quite a while to discover us too
Skiën was geweldig zegt:
Mapmakers do seem to love landbridges by the way

Thanks for handling that for us Dutch. I'm sure where he is getting those tech deals from though, they don't have Monotheism, Monarchy or Calander.

From Loco?

Nice one, getting him to reveal they have met piffle. That means almost complete contact all around.

We should ask about their opinion of other teams. What we get back might not be the truth but it would be interesting anyway.

Which brings me to, do we want to use any misinformation? :evil:

We're not going to lie, we're just not always speaking the complete truth :p
I think our first priority should be to knock out Epsilon.

From Aloha:
Greetings innoverians

Sorry for the delay in reply ive been busy recently. We were wondering whether you'd be interested in swapping machinery and calender for Civil service and meditation?

We should have machinery shortly but if we were to have CS before then we could get it quicker and then maybe ignore the beaker difference between the deal

Regards
BCLG
This sound like a reasonable offer. And it would help us on the way to guilds and camel archers. Should we accept it?

1050 for 880, hell yes!

Yes, everyone vs. Epsilon

Looks like we have enough to support the deal so our next turn should be here soon lets offer CS for Calender right away and when they finish Machinery we can swap it for Meditation.

I have sent a response accepting the deal to Aloha, suggesting that we do it over two steps like 1889 proposed.

I just sent a message to Aloha regarding the further tech coorperation:
Greetings, Aloha

First, thank you for the great tech coorperation so far. I'm sure we've both benefitted greatly.

What are you researching currently? We are in the process of discovering Feudalism, and depending on the price of your next tech we could perhaps make a swap?

Theoden, Innovia

I think we should do something against Epsilon.
What about suggesting an alliance with Aloha against Epsilon, like this:


This Treaty will stay active until Epsilon is destroyed
This treaty is between Team Aloha and Team Innovia
Both teams will share all technologies
Both teams will not declare war on eachother
Both teams will support eachother in war (Defensive & Offensive Pact)
Both teams will coordinate settlement and research so both teams will profit.

Take out the tech sharing and replace it with some kind of rule that both teams must be willing to trade techs they possess. Sharing all techs is a very bad idea, trust me, I have done this one time too many in PBEM. Otherwise it sounds like a reasonable alliance providing we add a clause about not trading techs with Epsilon.

This is a big step. It basically means declaring war on Epsilon and probably Piffle too, with Loco still undecided. I think it is too big a risk, considering that this doesn't get us much more than we already have.

I agree, it might be too early to try to arrange a fully-fledged militarily intentioned alliance.

The first line sounds too harsh to me. Have we talked with them about the danger we see in Epsilon to find out how they stand? I think going slow via a series of pacts of increasing importance would make a lot of sense.

Response from Aloha:
Grettings theoden and Innovia

shortly we shall have construction and then music, we would be willing to trade both of these to you for feudalism if that suits you? the beaker differential is in your favour but we're happy to wave it by for our closest allies.

regards
bclg
Though I haven't checked the exact beaker costs this seems like a very good offer.

It seems diplomatic relations are developing rapidly with Aloha (I don't think they've called us their closest allies before), so if we accept this they'll probably come with more lucratice deals down the road.

Construction (500), Music (858), Feudalism (1000) so ya thats a taker. Music seems like a strange choice to me. I suppose they want the free artist so they can lightbulb something.

Lets also reiterate that these techs are not to be traded to other teams. A little "we" vs. "they" thinking should tighten up our alliance.

Or how about if we trade the techs to other teams we have to gift the proseeds to the team that did the original research.

So If we trade Music to Loco for Theology we would have to gift theology to Aloha.

A little hard to check up on or enforce though, isn't it?

I'm not sure. We have contact with everyone so we should be able to see techs move around if they are traded. I think the trust but verify approach would work alright.

I will mention the no-trading clause. I don't like the idea of gifting the benefits, from selling techs to third partys, to the other team. Instead we should just take it on a case by case basis, like when Aloha asked for permission to sell CS.

One thing to consider though is that a no trading clause closes our alliance off and makes it hard to attrack more allies, where the gift clause allows Aloha to continue building its trade relationship with Piffle while including us in all the benefits.

Gifting clauses tend to lead to unwanted and unnecessary complications though, from my experience. IMHO it's better to take things on a case-by-case basis, like Theoden says. :)

I responded this to Aloha:
We can certainly agree to that offer. However, we'd like to place a trading restriction on the techs, so that neither of us is allowed to trade the techs we receive to any other civs unless permission is given. Is that acceptable to you?

Response from Aloha
Hey there

We agree, it's vital to stop other teams from learning this knowledge quickly

regards
BCLG

Chat with BCLG last night:
Simon says:
Hey
Mikkel says:
hey
Simon says:
How goes things in the land of innovia?
Mikkel says:
great as always, i think
Simon says:
and you?
Mikkel says:
well, i'm rather overworked at the moment but ignoring that im fine as well
Simon says:
ah ok
Mikkel says:
i trust Aloha is doing fine also?
Simon says:
Yeah we're doing great i think, things ticking along very nicely after the HG has been built
Mikkel says:
yes, we saw your jump in GNP.. quite impressive
Simon says:
cheers, we recieved fuedalism from you guys did we not?
Mikkel says:
yes, i think so
Mikkel says:
and we got drama and something else
Simon says:
Ok well just that we have had an offer from epsilon for it
Simon says:
we've rejected it because of our agreement with you not to trade tech on without expressed permission
Simon says:
however we've also kept communication going to see if we can gain any information on what tech they have
Mikkel says:
thats good to hear
Mikkel says:
we are also comminicating with them to get as much info as possible
Simon says:
do you recieve an e-mail requesting a tech swap whenever a new one is researched pretty much?
Mikkel says:
i think, at least when we discover a tech epsilon doesnt have
Mikkel says:
they seem very eager to do trades and they have a hrad time doing it
Simon says:
yeah, however we think they do have a trading partner in piffle.
Mikkel says:
thats our suspicion as well... they've traded a lot of techs and seem to be researching different ones
Simon says:
Yeah, we were surprised because they managed to get machinery, philosophy and construction within a few turns
Simon says:
we also have reason to believe that piffle and epsilon have traded world maps
Mikkel says:
seems possible but why do you think that?
Simon says:
there was a conversation between one of our team mates and one of theirs which seemed to imply it
Mikkel says:
ah, okay
Mikkel says:
have you had any luck having any constructive negotiatoins with Loco?
Simon says:
lol
Simon says:
tbh we've sort of given up
Simon says:
we propose tech deals everynow and then
Mikkel says:
that's our stance as well.. lol
Simon says:
and they do likewise but nothing concrete
Mikkel says:
it just seems they are asking to be left in the cold... as they don't seem to be with epsilon
Simon says:
no- im not sure whether the team is very active tbh
Mikkel says:
probably.. and they don't seem to have many veterans
Simon says:
yeah we also noticed that-its unfortunate as they could be a big help if it came down to two teams vs the other two
Mikkel says:
true.. but that leads me to the conclusion that if they can't help as an ally they can help as a vassal
Simon says:
lol
Simon says:
menacing talk
Mikkel says:
well, just mean speculation
Simon says:
the problem with having a human vassel is
Simon says:
that human vassels can be proper arse's
Mikkel says:
okay, then better destroy them and use their resources... lol
Simon says:
yeah- thought im not sure aloha knows where they are tbh
Simon says:
think were still looking
Simon says:
mainly trying to find epsilon
Mikkel says:
funny.. id have though you would have known their location for a while
Mikkel says:
we're also looking for epsilon
Mikkel says:
maybe we ought to trade maps once either of us get paper
Simon says:
Ill definatly propose it
Simon says:
however if we do i think that we'd have to have a clause saying that either team must ask the other when trading maps in the future
Simon says:
We aim to have paper in a trade with piffle shortly
Mikkel says:
sounds good, ill propose it to my team as well

Summary: they had been offered a deal for feudalism by Epsilon but had refused it due to the trading restriction. They revealed that they will have paper soon and are positive towards a possible map trade. There's also lots of small info and insights into Aloha's situation, but you'll have to read it all for that.

Big thumbs up on the map trade, I suppose Piffle will put a trade restriction on Paper though.

chatting with bclg at the moment

Simon zegt:
hey
- zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
you busy?
- zegt:
not really
Simon zegt:
just wanted to talk about the mtdg a little
Simon zegt:
but didnt want to interrupt things
- zegt:
not a problem, fire away
Simon zegt:
hows things going over in innovia then?
- zegt:
pretty good, although I haven't checked the save lately
Simon zegt:
ah right well we were wondering if there was any way we could trade for philosophy?
- zegt:
last picture of the tradescreen that I've got says that we have philo on you, and you have theo on us, is that still correct?
Simon zegt:
yes iirc
- zegt:
philo is 800 beakers, theo 500
- zegt:
(I'll try to open the save to have a better look at things)
Simon zegt:
yup but we hope to obtain paper soon also and therefore if you were to research horseback riding then the beakers would even up
- zegt:
(save downloaded, opening civ)
- zegt:
that would require us to research hbr, I don't know if/when we'll do that, but it's an interesting suggestion
Simon zegt:
indeed-its not a huge tech to research and would only take up a few turns research time
- zegt:
what would you think of another deal, say philo(1140) for paper(858) and something else?
Simon zegt:
well it depends what really...
Simon zegt:
anything in mind?
- zegt:
I'm going to have a look at the techtree
Simon zegt:
just loading up the save now
- zegt:
I think philo for paper and hbr would be an even deal
Simon zegt:
hmmm researching hbr wasnt in our immediate plans
Simon zegt:
i'll propose it
- zegt:
i'll do the same in our teams thread
Simon zegt:
we think we've found epsilon land on our team now
- zegt:
interesting, where is it approximately? Any chance of an attack?
Simon zegt:
hmmm do you know where piffle is?
- zegt:
no, we only know where loco is, and where you are (our exploring warrior has just seen your borders a few turns ago)
- zegt:
it seems paper and maptrading will be usefull
Simon zegt:
yes, i think i spoke previously with theoden about map trading
Simon zegt:
the only way we could agree to trading maps would be if there was some form of agreement in the future about map trades
Simon zegt:
i.e. that the team has to check with the other team whether they can trade or not
- zegt:
naturally
Simon zegt:
but then when we obtain paper what could/would you be interested in trading for it?
- zegt:
for paper? of for the map?
Simon zegt:
paper
- zegt:
philo?
Simon zegt:
well we can only offer theology right now...
- zegt:
well, I don't know really, but I'm sure my teammates would be able to work out a good deal
- zegt:
it would be best to workout who research what next so the trade is even in the end
Simon zegt:
yeah, what are you on right now?
- zegt:
Guilds
- zegt:
and you? paper?
Simon zegt:
no we hope to get paper in a trade i believe
Simon zegt:
think right now we're off research whilst we debate what to do and also build up a stash so we can deficit research
- zegt:
okay
- zegt:
anyway, I've got to go now, I'll post this in our teams thread, and expect to see a message from us soon
- zegt:
bye

Philo + HBR for Paper and Theo?

Beaker costs of those respective techs?

My initial impression is that the trade looks like it could have potential, but I'm not certain.

Ehm, HBR + Philo = Paper + Theo
Philo > Paper

So, what are we going to do?

HBR next for us. So we can do this trade in 4 or 5 turns. Shall we let them know?

HBR next for us. So we can do this trade in 4 or 5 turns. Shall we let them know?
Yes. I just sent them the offer, mentioning that we'll have to discover HBR before we can make the trade. :)

Sure, let's do that.

Response from Aloha:
Greetings innovia

this is very acceptable to us indeed, perhaps we can also meet online shortly and discuss some long term goals including future tech plans, where this game is going and the possibility of war?

regards
BCLG

Excellent, but I wonder what war they have planned, Piffle would be my guess. I don't see how we can be of much help to each other so try not to tell them our Loco plans. Probably the best we can do is a promise of mutual non-aggression.

If you're going to chat, and I'm online, could you add me to the conversation? (evldrunen@msn.com).

If you're going to chat, and I'm online, could you add me to the conversation? (evldrunen@msn.com).
I will. Though I'm still waiting for an opportunity to catch him online...

Chat with BCLG:
<snip (irrelevant stuff)>
Simon says:
Maybe could come to some form of full disclosure agreement between us two from now on?
Mikkel says:
as in 'shared diplo'? i can propose it to the team
Simon says:
we'd also like to come up with some form of long term tech strategy such as the one epsilon and piffle have
Mikkel says:
are you sure epsilon and piffle have a longterm one?
Simon says:
tbh yeah we do
Simon says:
look at team KISS and team MIA mtdg c3c
Simon says:
both very eager to set up long term tech plans
Simon says:
also we've had some very agressive settling by piffle and reasons to suggest they are working together via diplomacy
Mikkel says:
well, this means we have to make a strong alliance as well to compete
Simon says:
yeah
Mikkel says:
i think that full disclosure agreement would go a long way and be a good start actually
Simon says:
basically ive got liscence to roam diplomatically with innovia by my team
Mikkel says:
good... although i don't... i'm probably the foreign minister with the least power of all teams, lol
Simon says:
lol
Simon says:
also map trade?
Simon says:
on the condition that neither of us trades maps with anyone else without the other teams expressed permission?
Mikkel says:
a good offer, but ill have to ask the team first
Simon says:
of course
Simon says:
basically in terms of tech
Simon says:
we're bee-lining towards MT for obvious reasons
Simon says:
and hope to roll over piffle v quickly if we can get cossacks early enough
Mikkel says:
sounds good, but i bet epsilon and piffle will get to MT soon as well
Simon says:
we think right now we are in the best position
Simon says:
we have been beelining since about turn 70
Simon says:
for this we need- guils/powder/nationalism/MT itself
Mikkel says:
but you'll guilds from us IIRC?
Simon says:
*guilds
Simon says:
we're getting philosophy i think and your getting paper
Mikkel says:
i have to go eat now, but there's also a big decision my team has to take before we can really start coorperating, so maybe we could end it here for today?
Simon says:
sure- one other thing though before you go
Simon says:
would your team consider gifting us guilds so we can get MT quicker
Simon says:
it would allow us to research powder etc
Simon says:
and we have the highest gnp in the game
Simon says:
naturally we would of course make it up to you in the future
Simon says:
and not trade it to anyone else
Simon says:
and last but not least
Simon says:
would your team agree to a trade embargo against piffle/epsilon
Simon says:
sorry about that last flurry but whilst given free reign i have to bring up certain points
Mikkel says:
ill propose those to the team.. see ya
Simon says:
cyas

Basically we have to choose sides now - aloha or piffle. I'd say Aloha, because there is a decent chance that piffle is just out to screw us and fake an alliance to split the aloha-innovia alliance. A three-way alliance is pretty much out and a piffle-aloha war seems unavoidable.

We need to decide quickly!

Interesting! I'll try to post as much info as possible next turn so we can decide better.

Well handled Theo but I don't see the need to rush, of all the teams we can best afford to wait things out and as other teams situations become more urgent our support will only become more valuable.

I am strongly against the full disclosure or open diplomacy idea. That would irrevocably tie us to Aloha and deprive us of any freedom to manipulate to situation. In return all we gain is Aloha as an ally which we can probably get cheeper anyway. They sound anxious for friends, a bad sign.

For much the same reasons I am against any embargo but we can certainly honor Aloha's request not to re-trade techs they trade to us.

I don't really see why it is necessary to gift Guilds. We already made plans for the tech trade and I think it’s due to happen in a few turns. However Aloha has been fair and trustworthy in the past I'm not too strongly against.

PS just thinking out loud, but if Epsilon attacks Loco and we are sly with Piffle it could be the world against Epsilon with us leading the coalition, so once again, no way to full disclosure.

Actually, that thought came to me as well while chatting - we could remain loyal to aloha and still make piffle believe that we've switched to their side. That wouldn't allow for full disclosure though, so I am against that as well. This idea would put us in the lead, if we could pull it off.

Chatting with BCLG100 right now.
Full log in next post.

Full chat log
Simon zegt:
hey
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
hows things?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
good, with you?
Simon zegt:
aye fairly good
Simon zegt:
got anytime to talk about the mtdg?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
sure
Simon zegt:
well did theoden post mine and his last conversation?
Simon zegt:
about week/2 week ago?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
yes
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
and then Theoden went away, he came back yesterday
Simon zegt:
well have innovia decided on any of that stuff yet?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
it has been discussed, but we haven't really decided anything yet, as I recall, I'll look at our threads for a moment though
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
we could make a map trade soon
Simon zegt:
ok
Simon zegt:
but any news on the rest of it? with the turns going through so fast recently we really need something concrete or epsilon and piffle will just steam ahead
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
but a full information disclosure/allianace is one step beyond what most of our teams wants at the moment
Simon zegt:
no worries on that front, it was just a spur of the moment suggestion
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
anything else you discussed with Theoden? The chat is pretty long to read
Simon zegt:
tech trades
Simon zegt:
creating a set path for each team
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I think we made a trade last turn, or the turn before that
Simon zegt:
yeah
Simon zegt:
but consistent trades like piffle/epsilon are making
Simon zegt:
ideas being proposed-
full disclosure on diplomacy
map trade
military help- they'll help by keeping epsilon busy
gifting us guilds early so we can go faster on MT research
trade embargo against piffle/epsilon
Simon zegt:
thats my write up in team forums
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
1st is a no, 2nd is a clear yes
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
4th has been done
Simon zegt:
no it hasnt
Simon zegt:
not to our knowledge
Simon zegt:
we traded philo/hbr/paper/something else
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
oh, what was the trade we did then? Paper and philo or something?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
okay
Simon zegt:
but i dont think we have guilds
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I stand corrected
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
about guilds, what would you propose?
Simon zegt:
well we do have divine right
Simon zegt:
but if we come up with some form of tech plan then we can trade better
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
that's not exactly a very usefull tech though
Simon zegt:
no but is worth ~twice as much
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
yeah, but that worth mainly lies in the fact that you can get a religion from it
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I assume you're going nationalism next?
Simon zegt:
yes
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
how's guilds (now) + banking for nationalism beakerwise?
Simon zegt:
im not sure- we have no great desire for banking right now
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
guilds (1000) banking (700) nationalism (1800)
Simon zegt:
yes but what i mean to say is- banking is not very usefull in our current situation
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
like DR isn't usefull for us now
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
other proposals?
Simon zegt:
well if you were to gift us guilds now, we can research a lot faster than you
Simon zegt:
so guilds and astronomy for nationalism and powder
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
astronomy, I don't know when we'll get that, it could take some time
Simon zegt:
its 2000 beakers
Simon zegt:
but we need it to wage war and we're beelining to MT
Simon zegt:
so that would be avoided
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
yeah, but we'd need compas and optics too
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
that's another 1000 beakers
Simon zegt:
3000
Simon zegt:
well by the time you get it we'll probably have MT
Simon zegt:
so MT and nationalism would be 3800 beakers
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
well, astro (2000) + compass/optics (1000) + guilds (1000) = 4000
Simon zegt:
leaves 200 beakers left over
Simon zegt:
not 'that' major
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
yeah, but you'd also get guilds a lot earlier, that's compound interest
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
but I'll propose it to the team
Simon zegt:
and you would also get a 1800 beaker tech before we saw a decent one
Simon zegt:
as we get nationalism in about ~8 turns
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
okay
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
well, it's an interesting deal, we'll see if our team wants it
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
how are your relations with the other teams at the moment?
Simon zegt:
strained at best
Simon zegt:
obviously loco is a no no
Simon zegt:
you?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
we haven't had contact with loco at all
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
Epsilon recently closed borders as we had a warrior in their territory
Simon zegt:
ah
Simon zegt:
well will you be able to give us any help against epsilon?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
well, they're quite far away, certainly by land
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
we'd have to go past Loco to reach them
Simon zegt:
mind if i invite theoden in?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
no problem, he's the boss after all

Mikkel is aan het gesprek toegevoegd.

Simon zegt:
hey
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
hey
Mikkel zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
how was the trip?
Mikkel zegt:
excellent, lots of drinking
Simon zegt:
lol, awesome
Simon zegt:
got a moment to talk about the mtdg now then?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
sobered up?
Mikkel zegt:
yes, go ahead
Mikkel zegt:
yes im sober thank you very much
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
by the way, I'll post the first part of this chat in our teams forum now
Simon zegt:
well me and dutch were just talking about our last convo and what had happened in innovia forums from it
Simon zegt:
full disclosure on diplomacy
map trade
military help- they'll help by keeping epsilon busy
gifting us guilds early so we can go faster on MT research
trade embargo against piffle/epsilon

Simon zegt:
over them basic points
Simon zegt:
dutch said no to disclosure on diplo, yes to map trade
Simon zegt:
from there we sorta stagnated talking about details
Mikkel zegt:
im with dutch on those two
Simon zegt:
but what on the other points?
Mikkel zegt:
i don't like the idea of total trade embargo, but maybe some restrictions on tech trading?
Simon zegt:
well how about no giving them resources or happy?
Simon zegt:
im quite happy for health to go as is the team but resources are a big no no
Simon zegt:
and when war breaks out we'd prefer them to not have luxs for obvious reasons
Mikkel zegt:
we can agree on strategic resources certainly but i don't know about happiness
Simon zegt:
btw can i just ask whether innovia thinks that war will be needed in this game?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
well, just sitting here and waiting until epsilon launches isn't exactly a good idea is it?
Mikkel zegt:
i think it's unavoidable
Mikkel zegt:
epsilon is going to win the peace race surely
Simon zegt:
most definatly
Simon zegt:
and with them having piffle under the thumb and loco being about as much use as a wet paper towel
Simon zegt:
we should work together
Mikkel zegt:
do you know exactly how much piffle is controlled by epsilon?
Mikkel zegt:
but i agree we have to increase our level of coorperation
Simon zegt:
well even if they were complete partners 50/50
Simon zegt:
and it came down to them 2, epsilon would win
Simon zegt:
so i cant see them having less than majority control of that alliance
Simon zegt:
but perhaps they make piffle think they have a choice
Mikkel zegt:
but are you sure they have a complete alliance? my thought is thatpiffle would know that they couldn't win the game that way
Simon zegt:
no i am fairly sure they have a complete alliance
Simon zegt:
they have exchanged maps for instance
Simon zegt:
they have been regular tech trading
Simon zegt:
obviously until hostilities breaks out we cant be completly sure to what extent they are allied
Mikkel zegt:
sounds reasonable, but i bet piffle is waiting for an opportunity to screw epsilon... i can't see how else they'd have a chance
Simon zegt:
of course
Simon zegt:
i think thats the hope, that they'll get to the modern age and their financial trait will be able to win it for em
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
Epsilon is Qin right?
Mikkel zegt:
yes
Simon zegt:
yup
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
He's financial too
Simon zegt:
not in vanilla
Simon zegt:
iirc anyways
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
industrious financial
Mikkel zegt:
but either way, if we can reduce piffle's power we'll hurt epsilon badly
Simon zegt:
yep
Mikkel zegt:
and a 2v1 tech race is sure to be won
Simon zegt:
indeed
Simon zegt:
me and dutch therefore have this deal planned out
Simon zegt:
nationalism+ MT for compass/optics/astronomy/guilds.
Simon zegt:
its about 200 beakers in our favour
Mikkel zegt:
how long would it take before that deal could be realised?
Simon zegt:
im not sure we get nationalism in about 8 turns
Simon zegt:
definatly we'll have MT before you get astro
Mikkel zegt:
so we would some partial trades/gifts on the way?
Simon zegt:
yeah
Mikkel zegt:
sounds reasonable to me... i can agree to that tech deal
Simon zegt:
so what on the help keeping epsilon busy whilst we take out piffle?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I'm going to eat dinner now
Mikkel zegt:
okay, shall we continue anyway BCLG?
Simon zegt:
sure
Mikkel zegt:
well, we've been thinking of attacking loco and our thoughts would be to engage epsilon down there far away from piffle or you
Simon zegt:
how come you think they are attacking loco though#?
Simon zegt:
and not just feeding you disinformation?
Mikkel zegt:
we can't be sure of course, we got the info from piffle
Mikkel zegt:
but we could try to form an "alliance" with them to attack loco
Simon zegt:
yeah but then there is the possibility of them finding out what your doing that way
Mikkel zegt:
yes, but engaging them in locoland is the only way we can reach them realistically
Mikkel zegt:
and besides i think they might come when they find out that innovia is about to get larger with loco cities
Simon zegt:
sorry listening to man utd game on internet radio
Simon zegt:
just scored!
Simon zegt:
we still have no idea where loco is
Mikkel zegt:
well you'll se soon once the map trade is done.. we have explored all their territory
Simon zegt:
awesome
Simon zegt:
we have very good knowledge of all piffles coastal cities
Mikkel zegt:
great
Mikkel zegt:
and how about their defenses?
Simon zegt:
right now very weak
Simon zegt:
but as is our attack force
Simon zegt:
one thing that kuningas is very worried about is that they could get rifling free as a free tech from liberalism
Mikkel zegt:
do they have gunpowder?
Simon zegt:
so after we've got MT we'll grab powder then hopefully get lib
Simon zegt:
no they dont not yet
Mikkel zegt:
i don't think you have a reasonable shot at liberalism though
Simon zegt:
no
Simon zegt:
we dont either
Simon zegt:
but by researching education
Simon zegt:
we force them to research liberalism
Simon zegt:
thereby stopping them from waiting for a more expensive tech
Mikkel zegt:
ah, okay
Mikkel zegt:
but im pretty sure they'll get mil trad fomr epsilon soon as well
Simon zegt:
yeah but thing is- big deal?
Simon zegt:
we have cossacks
Simon zegt:
50% vs mounted
Mikkel zegt:
i forgot your UU... vanilla cossack is quite powerful right?
Simon zegt:
immensly so
Simon zegt:
thats why we want to take piffle out before they get theres
Simon zegt:
the redcoat
Mikkel zegt:
our tech plan will ensure that hopefully
Simon zegt:
one thing though
Simon zegt:
our gnp is quite a lot higher than yours
Simon zegt:
but we obviously want to be able to keep trading with you
Simon zegt:
and keep you on a tech parity
Simon zegt:
so were unsure what you can offer in exchange for tech
Mikkel zegt:
well there are many ways to go.. im not sure what we're going to research after this deal
Mikkel zegt:
does gnp count specialists?
Simon zegt:
no but if we could organise something
Simon zegt:
no it doesnt iirc
Simon zegt:
its just base commerce with no modifiers
Mikkel zegt:
well, then the difference might not be so big
Simon zegt:
no but we are using an SE right now
Simon zegt:
so well our gnp may rise when we work the cottages
Mikkel zegt:
the tech tree has a lot of branches so its a rather compliocated arragement
Simon zegt:
of course
Mikkel zegt:
maybe we should compare beaker output instead
Simon zegt:
i actually have that info availiable
Mikkel zegt:
i dont
Simon zegt:
lol
Simon zegt:
kuningas's write ups are very detailied
Simon zegt:
most of the time i just look at the pictures
Mikkel zegt:
ive found it now
Mikkel zegt:
95 beakers at 70%
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
back, summary please
Simon zegt:
erm 175 at 100%
Simon zegt:
so about 140-150 at 70%
Simon zegt:
dutch we havnt really talked about THAT much
Simon zegt:
mainly just where to go after the tech trade
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
gnp and techs, okay got it
Simon zegt:
btw just to confirm and i feel stupid asking but everything we discuss is kept within team right?
Mikkel zegt:
yes, we don't send a copy of the conversation to epsilon
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
we don't?
Mikkel zegt:
you've got about 50% larger output... so we might have a hard time keeping up
Mikkel zegt:
shhh *kick under table*
Simon zegt:
indeed- which is why i was hoping you would have some idea how we can balance out?
Simon zegt:
lol
Mikkel zegt:
resources perhaps?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
no trade route at the moment
Simon zegt:
if we swap maps we might be able to see one
Simon zegt:
btw i assume you have noticed now
Simon zegt:
iron is in fact on the map
Mikkel zegt:
yes, its on our tundra
Mikkel zegt:
we could sell troops for techs
Simon zegt:
every team has one
Simon zegt:
and every team has it on tundra
Simon zegt:
we've found piffles
Mikkel zegt:
is it connected?
Simon zegt:
no
Simon zegt:
from what we can tell they only found it a few turns after us
Simon zegt:
epsilon have one connected
Mikkel zegt:
then you could catch them without pikes
Simon zegt:
indeed its what we hope
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I think his connection broke up or something
Simon zegt:
ah
Mikkel zegt:
yeah, he sorta dissappeared
Mikkel zegt:
nevermind
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
Theoden, you're still listed as offline on my msn
Simon zegt:
mine too

Mikkel heeft het gesprek verlaten.

Simon zegt:
he's gone now
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
ah Microsoft programs, reliable as ever
Simon zegt:
lol

Mikkel is aan het gesprek toegevoegd.

Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
and he's back
Mikkel zegt:
well, it's a funny thing messenger does regardless of the connection.. it just likes to go offline now and then
Simon zegt:
lol mine used to do that as well
Simon zegt:
no idea why
Simon zegt:
guess it just fancied a change
Mikkel zegt:
lol, good im not the only one
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
I've seen it happen before too
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
well, I'm going to play the pbem now, I'll send you the save in a few minutes BCLG
Simon zegt:
ah right ok
Simon zegt:
im unsure whether the troops for tech was a joke
Simon zegt:
but we'd definatly consider that
Mikkel zegt:
actually pretty serious... personally i'd consider it at least
Simon zegt:
mind if i invite robi d in?
Mikkel zegt:
no problem

Rob is aan het gesprek toegevoegd.

Simon zegt:
hey rob
Rob zegt:
hi everyone
Mikkel zegt:
hey rob
Simon zegt:
brb nature calls
Rob zegt:
lol
Rob zegt:
the game is starting to get interesting
Rob zegt:
piffle and epsilon have been making some trades
Mikkel zegt:
besides the usual tech trades?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
hi Robi
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
(when I saw Rob I first thought it was Robboo, ah confusing all those robs )
Rob zegt:
just the techs from what we can see but they do have a trade route between them
Rob zegt:
ha ha, we have a few robs in the team
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
if they're dealing resources wouldn't we be able to see it on the diplo screen (+1 You've supplied us with resources)?
Mikkel zegt:
only after a while
Rob zegt:
also i think it would list the deals too
Mikkel zegt:
it does, youre right
Rob zegt:
but they are getting very cosy, 3 tech swaps in a row that we can see
Rob zegt:
and epsilon has there iron connected now too
Rob zegt:
and piffle are in the process of connecting theirs
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
pbem save sent to BCLG, discover a new save from another pbem, so I'm away for a few minutes again
Rob zegt:
have you found your iron yet?
Mikkel zegt:
yes, though not connected
Simon zegt:
back
Simon zegt:
well if we were to trade troops for tech
Simon zegt:
just how would we work out troops/tech?
Mikkel zegt:
market values?
Mikkel zegt:
the hammer value of the unit.. and then decide on a beaker-hammer conversion
Simon zegt:
sure however also units have to move about etc
Mikkel zegt:
yes, there'd be a trade delay and it would probalby require some transport ships
Rob zegt:
don't forget we can offer cossaks
Mikkel zegt:
cossacks would be awesome
Simon zegt:
we were more meaning rob because of our much higher gnp of a way for innovia to pay us for tech
Rob zegt:
i see
Mikkel zegt:
but we can sell you camel archers
Rob zegt:
but we could work it both ways if we can work it out and innovia wanted them of course
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
and you could upgrade them
Mikkel zegt:
actually i like this idea more and more
Rob zegt:
the way i see it we do have a stategic advantage over piffle/epsilon
Rob zegt:
and that is we sandwitch epsilon and piffle is off to our south
Rob zegt:
and you can bet their tech swaps will continue
Rob zegt:
if we can come to a deal we can take them out before they decide to come for one of us
Rob zegt:
and you can bet they will be aiming for someone soon
Mikkel zegt:
well, yes as i told bclg earlier, piffle has told us that epsilon is planning to attack loco
Mikkel zegt:
though not completely reliable info
Simon zegt:
especially with epsilons rising power rate
Rob zegt:
they could be
Simon zegt:
indeed mikkel but you previously told me not to mention it to my team
Rob zegt:
or they could be looking at aloha
Mikkel zegt:
i did?
Rob zegt:
since they could lauch a 2 sided attack
Simon zegt:
yeah
Simon zegt:
well the last chat we had you did
Mikkel zegt:
well, so much for my diplomatic professionalism..
Simon zegt:
lol
Rob zegt:
lol
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
the fact that you still appear as being offline doesn't make you look any more professional either
Mikkel zegt:
same problem, but it doesn't prevent me from writing stuff
Rob zegt:
they might be going after loco and if they are it presents both of us with an oppertunity
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
(By the way, can we trade maps as soon as possible, as in next turn, it could avoid a lot of confusion on where everyone is).
Mikkel zegt:
that's our thought as well.. to catch them in their attack on loco
Rob zegt:
the map trade is fine with us
Rob zegt:
to catch them we will need to cooperate because we will need the techs to be able to make the units to get to them
Mikkel zegt:
a no trading maps afterwards clause included of course...
Simon zegt:
yes
Mikkel zegt:
yes, that's what the tech deal will ensure
Rob zegt:
obviously we don't want to give anyone two maps for one of theirs
Rob zegt:
if we can get galleon, frigate and cavs/cossaks before they do we can hit them hard
Rob zegt:
even if we don't kill them off we would still hurt them
Mikkel zegt:
we will get those units with the tech deal
Mikkel zegt:
and i don't think piffle will be killed of completely an dit isn't neccesary either
Rob zegt:
no it isn't, if we can just raze one or two major cites of piffle and epsilon it would set them back and give us a chance to build a lead
Rob zegt:
and finish them off later
Rob zegt:
but we do need to help each other otherwise they we take the game away from us because at the moment loco seems to be a basket case so if they take one of us out the other is finished too
Mikkel zegt:
but to summarise our proposals: full disclosure on diplomacy - not possible;
map trade - accepted by both;
military help - unit trading and we'll try to catch epsilon in loco; gifting us guilds early so we can go faster on MT research - to be discussed?;
trade embargo against piffle/epsilon - no trading of health resources?;
Simon zegt:
errr
Simon zegt:
well we'd much prefer no trading of strategic and happy
Simon zegt:
health is allowed
Mikkel zegt:
i meant stregic of course
Mikkel zegt:
*strategic
Mikkel zegt:
brb
Rob zegt:
health resources are pretty much everywhere so they are not a big deal
Simon zegt:
and if we are doing that tech deal then we should trade them all whenever we can
Simon zegt:
but happy isnt which is why it is such a big deal
Mikkel zegt:
ill have to ask the rest of the team before agreeing to a happy-embargo
Simon zegt:
ok
Simon zegt:
also your team should discuss the military for tech thing
Mikkel zegt:
regarding the tech deal we could gift as we discover
Mikkel zegt:
yes
Mikkel zegt:
is there any more we need to discuss before returning to our teams?
Simon zegt:
hmmm i dont think so
Rob zegt:
not anything i can think of
Rob zegt:
i agree trading map asap well help us plan things for an attack
Mikkel zegt:
yes
Mikkel zegt:
we'll end it here then.. long chat
Simon zegt:
yep
Mikkel zegt:
dutch, can you post the log as you have it all?
Het ongeloofelijke is gebeurd, DVC B3 wint met 2-0 tegen JPS zegt:
okay
Rob zegt:
yes i have a bed waiting for me
Mikkel zegt:
what timezone?
Rob zegt:
australia

To summarise our proposals:
full disclosure on diplomacy - not possible;
map trade - accepted by both;
military help - unit trading and we'll try to catch epsilon in loco; gifting us guilds early so we can go faster on MT research - to be discussed?;
trade embargo against piffle/epsilon - no trading of strategic resources?

Potential Tech Deal:
Nationalism + Military Tradition <> Guilds, Compass, Optics, Astronomy
Gifting as soon as possible (that would mean Guilds next turn).

Offered maptrade,
Gifted Guilds

B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
hey
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
how are thing in Alohan land?
Simon zegt:
aye there fairly good, just had team elections to positions
Simon zegt:
i won everything
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
lol
Simon zegt:
so now am delegating jobs
Simon zegt:
hows about innovia?
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
pretty good
Simon zegt:
we did notice your gnp was crippled, how come?
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
I don't know how it's calculated, but we're now running mercantilism instead of the normal civic
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
that might have something to do with it
Simon zegt:
that shouldnt have that much to do with gnp
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
I'll look into the article about gnp to see what might be the reason
Simon zegt:
oh ok cool, we were just a little concerned what with epsilon and piffle having such good gnp
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
how's your position towards piffle now? Still planning an attack?
Simon zegt:
yeah, pretty much
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
(gnp includes traderoutes. Mercantilism blocks foreign traderoutes)
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
we're still planning an attack at Loco, but they're threatening us
Simon zegt:
yeah but yours is by far the lowest
Simon zegt:
i thought you were going to attack epsilon
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
that's odd, we've been planning to attack Loco for quite some time now, mainly because epsilon is further away
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
But Epsilon has probably given information about our attack to Loco, and now Loco is talking about protection by their "allies"
Simon zegt:
i thought epsilon were also going to attack loco?
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
yes, we think so too
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
I wouldn't be surprised if Epsilon has tipped them off about our attack so that they move their troops to our border, and the border with Epsilon gets underdefended
Simon zegt:
hmm, i suppose we could spread some disinformation to loco
Simon zegt:
that we have a reliable source epsilon plan to attack
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
that would be great!
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
by the way, we noticed that piffle and Epsilon already have military tradition
Simon zegt:
indeed, we think this was the free tech they got from liberalism
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
has liberalism been discovered? I didn't read anything about that in our turn reports
Simon zegt:
yes, it was a few turns ago iirc
Simon zegt:
however they dont have powder or horseback riding yet
Simon zegt:
both of which they need for it
Simon zegt:
we know they're getting powder off loco
Simon zegt:
as we requested an exclusivity deal with them for it
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
hopefully we can stop them from finishing it soon
Simon zegt:
aloha i think would rather you didnt
Simon zegt:
as we're hoping to get powder from them too
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
and we'll get it from you
Simon zegt:
lol for something yeah
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
oh wait, I was thinking about the nationalism MT deal
Simon zegt:
yeah
Simon zegt:
on that subject, how close are you to astronomy?
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
I'll have a look
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
we're 4 turns away from optics
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
we're expecting a great person soon though, that might speed things up
Simon zegt:
im not sure what GS except maybe a GM would do that
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
a GM would be used on Printing Press, a GS on Education.
But I'm not sure what we're going to do with it, I doubt we'll lightbulb anything
B3 wint voor de derde keer zegt:
shall I add Theoden to the conversation?
Simon zegt:
sure
First part

Mail call:

Greetings Innovia,

I hope things are going well for your nation. I am writing to inform you of our plans. Piffle and Epsilon have been very quite of late, so we are going to change this by opening up some talks and throwing some things around and to see how they react. Hopefully they will open up a bit and give us an insight into their thinking. We will of course keep you informed and not make any deals without discussing it with you first as we are fully commited to our partnership. So if you do hear any strange rumors floating around it means our plan is working :)

All the best
Robi D, Aloha

Anarchy, chaos, havoc

Sounds like fun :p

Dutchfire was a bit concerned about the recently posted open letter, and couldn't access the gmail account to check if there was a message from Aloha, so I did so. :)

Re: Open Letter

I hope you get as much of a laugh from reading it as i had writing it. I sure it will leave the others wondering whats going on between us. Also we are hoping this should convince Loco were on their side, as we are trying to convince them that Epsilon is also planning an attack on them as well.

Wishing you good hunting
Robi D
So, it is a bluff after all. We need not be worried. :)

EDIT: Cross-post with Theoden.

Aloha's first step in misinforming the world: :D
I hope you get as much of a laugh from reading it as i had writing it. I sure it will leave the others wondering whats going on between us. Also we are hoping this should convince Loco were on their side, as we are trying to convince them that Epsilon is also planning an attack on them as well.

Wishing you good hunting
Robi D
The open letter is in "The End of The Era of Peace" post #8.

The Locopatamian Government graciously welcomes the call for peace. Thank you. We can only hope that the Innovians will also rethink this war and we can move forward to a better tomorrow.

:rotfl: :lol:

Just a bit of random chit-chat:
Simon says:
Hey
Mikkel says:
hi
Simon says:
got time to talk mtdg wise?
Mikkel says:
sure
Simon says:
how goes the war?
Mikkel says:
as you have probably read in the history thread we managed to raza a city so I'd say pretty fine
Mikkel says:
though it's not going to be a walkover either
Simon says:
managed to raze two, i think. just wondered if there had been any further developments
Mikkel says:
not really much... we've consolidated and are trying to heal units and move into position for attacking another city
Simon says:
ok, well we've been trading with them recently but we just wanted to set your mind at ease that it isnt anything too important
Simon says:
we've also told them about rumours of epsilon planning an attack
Mikkel says:
ok, good to hear
Mikkel says:
we loved your open letter btw
Simon says:
we're got a pretty interesting edition of the pineapple out soon
Mikkel says:
with lots of misinformation?
Simon says:
mainly domestic matters, however we might throw a bit in
Mikkel says:
I'm looking forward too see that
Mikkel says:
did you notice that epsilon and piffle now have astro?
Simon says:
we were also a bit curious, how long till astronomy?
Simon says:
yeah we did
Mikkel says:
13 turns
Simon says:
ok cool
Mikkel says:
how are your plans for the possible invasion of piffle going?
Simon says:
difficultly
Simon says:
they have such a tech lead
Mikkel says:
well, that's quite a problem... better hope they don't invade you!
Simon says:
indeed, you better hope that too, would leave you on the wrong side of a 3 on 1
Simon says:
what do you think innovia will do after loco?
Mikkel says:
probably consolidation of our economy
Mikkel says:
it'll be a heavy strain on resources in the end and the cities we capture have to be developed first

Has Aloha been doing any exploring? Should we update with a map swap?

How far are you guys away from discovering Astronomy. Piffle are going to cut us to shreads with their Galleons if we can't repel them soon.

Robi D, Aloha

How far away are we? 5 turns? We could reply that we're running into cash problems, and ask them for a short loan so we can complete it sooner.

More like 7 I'm afraid.

Sent:

Aloha,

We are nearly done with our celestial investigations, just 3 more turns. We have a galley sailing the northern route to you, but it left before we could load troops. Is there any way we could be of assistance?

Best of Luck,
Innovia

Reply:

Thanks for the update.

Once we have Galleons we can force them onto the land where we have the advantage. Until then we are trying our best to hold them off

Just sent this off.

Dear Aloha,

We've asked for Military tradition and should be able to send Astro next turn. That will conclude our current deals, lets get together to make some new plans.

Your friends,
Innovia

PS would you like a galley?

Propossed message to Aloha:

Dear Robi D and Aloha,

It has been too long since we have talked. I hope we can find time for a chat soon to discuss our future plans. In the mean time we would like to raise the question of tech trades. We now have printing Press and will soon have Education while you have Divine Right, Gunpowder and whatever you are currently researching.

We look forward to hearing from our friends,
1889 and Innovia


We haven't talked to these folks in how long? I though the personal touch might help, maybe we could send this to the team gmail account and to Robi D's personal box. I used my name but would anyone else like to volunteer as Aloha's ambasador?

I'd add the contact information for everyone who is available for chatting on our team, so they know how to contact us. (Until now, we only talked to BCLG, who's on holiday at the moment).

I sent it along with my email and let them know that I'm also 1889 on chat, but you and Theo change your names all the time right?

I sent it to Aloha's gmail and to Robi's PM box. Included my email and let them know that I'm also 1889 on chat, but you and Theo change your names all the time right?

No, I always have the same chat name, but dutch seems to change it often.

No, I always have the same chat name, but dutch seems to change it often.

I'm young, versatile, vibrant and I don't have much else to do :D

By the way, we could get that one Camel Archer in their territory in like 5 or 6 turns IIRC. Getting that galley there might take to long as he'd have to detour.

I thought that camel was going to explore Piffle.

that's fine with me too
wouldn't just the galley do for that though?

I don't think so; I want to see the inland tiles too. (Espionage slider in 28 days :D )

I don't think so; I want to see the inland tiles too. (Espionage slider in 28 days :D )

Adicted? :lol:

Sounds good, and Piffle would notice a camel archer anyway, they might not be friendly afterwards ;)

Real bad news from Aloha:

Hello 1889,

I don't know how we can go for a chat time, this weekend is full on for me. However i will put something to you now because honestly i don't think we will be able to last much longer. Piffle has opened up a second front. We will try to hold them off as long as possible.

We already have an agreement for Printing Press, but we are interested in Education. If you can also offer 100g we will give you Gunpowder and Divine Right. We are researching Engineering but we are not sure if we can finish or now but with the gold we can probably squeeze it out.

Apart from that if you could spare a unit or twenty it would be great. Also Epsilon and Piffle have Frigates so they are untouchable at sea for the moment.

If your happy with the deal please let us know so we can get things rolling asap

All the best
Robi D

we don't really need the deal for gunpowder+dr as we'll get powder from loco, and DR is basically useless.

I wouldn't mind DR just to improve our score, but not really worth a trade. If we dropped science to 30% for 1 turn we can give then 100 gold then maybe they can finish engineering.

I'd be happy to give 100 gold to a dying team in hope of a foot in on the estate auction. Maybe we could ask our doomed buddies for a world made, techs that could help us beat Piffle to victory. How about two refugee workers in that galley?

sure, we could just ask them if they're willing to "part with some of their resources" to help our mutual effort. By the way, anyone knows where their members will go when they're dead? I think we could ask some of them to join us.

That might be kind of rude. Lets try and help them out a little, they'll tell us when the end is near and we can start hinting that giving us all possable help is better than letting it all go to waste.

I'd bet that most Alohans will quit and a few will go to Epsilon.

I agree, we should take whatever we can get from them before they die, if that extra hundred gold will allow us to grab another tech from them then it will certainly be worth it.

Proposed message to Aloha. I'd like to send it latter today.

Aloha Aloha,

We are sorry to hear about your situation. If things are that dire then I don't think we can get any units to you in time, and we are not sure that camels would be much use against gunpowder units. But we are still trying to think of ways that we can help. For now we have sent 24 gold and will send 76 next turn in hopes that it will help you finish Engineering.

Best of luck,
Team Innovia


EDIT: sent

Their reply:
Thank you. With that boost we should manage it in about 8-10 turns
Hopefully with a bit of luck we can pin them down when they go inland

Sent this to Aloha:
We had a galley scouting the northern coast to make sure our trade routes stay open, but he has come to a dead end. It can't do us any more good so we pass it along to you in hopes that you can get some use out of it.

Team Innovia

Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
hi
Simon zegt:
hey
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
how are you doing?
Simon zegt:
good, hows about you?
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
pretty good too (holiday )
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
how are things going in aloha land?
Simon zegt:
We get engineering next turn, we also have a GS, so we can start on sci meth afterwards. All of piffles forces have vanished, we haven't managed to find them]
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
vanished? strange
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
could they have gifted them to Epsilon? we have seen quite some Epsilonian units on their coast, and recently, they sailed out
Simon zegt:
I dont think so, you'd notice them on the power graphs
Simon zegt:
on the epsilon coast facing you or us?
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
coast facing us, but AFAIK only one galleon sailed out, so we're guessing (hoping) they aren't invading anyone yet
Formule 1 gezien in Spa Francorchamps zegt:
by the way, 1889 wanted to trade maps, would you be interested in doing that?
Simon zegt:
well they've already won the game they have no need too
Simon zegt:
sure may as well

Map trade is okay

Simon zegt:
well they've already won the game they have no need too

I hate hearing that kind of stuff, especially from a team's president. Loco/Aloha/Innovia still have a lot of untapped potential but it will require good communication to bring it together.

Sent to Aloha

Aloha Aloha,

I appologise for any confusiion over last turns tech trade, but I thought it best to just reject it and start fresh.

Although we did give you gold to help with the reaserch we never did make any arrangments for a trade. Anyway I hope you will accept Education for Engineering and Divine Right.

For future coordination we will be finishing replacable parts in 3 turns (thank you golden age).

Thanks,
1889 of Innovia

three way tech alliance chat:

- zegt:
hi
Joe zegt:
hi
- zegt:
how are things in Loco land?
Joe zegt:
alright, just about to play the save
- zegt:
okay
- zegt:
are you going to send Constitution now? (or has it already been sent?)
Joe zegt:
been sent i think
- zegt:

- zegt:
what are you researching now by the way?
Joe zegt:
just checking now...
- zegt:
because Aloha is going to do Scientific Method, we'll probably be able to get it from them
Joe zegt:
We are researching part of SM with a great scientist
- zegt:
they are doing that too
- zegt:
it would be great if you could go for Chemistry first
Joe zegt:
ah. ok we will do chemistry.
- zegt:
could we draw up a three-way-tech-alliance?
Joe zegt:
thats a good idea, there is a slight problem on how to organise it
- zegt:
yeah, we'd need to have an alohan too
Joe zegt:
You have got constitution from us
- zegt:

Joe zegt:
engineering we hope to get it from aloha as part of a previous deal, and then we will start chemistry.
- zegt:
okay
- zegt:
I believe we'll get replaceable parts in about 3 turns
Joe zegt:
yes i saw it in our inbox,
- zegt:
okay
- zegt:
I think we're starting Rifling next
Joe zegt:
Ok i can't remeber what we have to do after chemistry, but we work that out when we get to it.
- zegt:
perhaps physics?

joe32320@hotmail.com heeft je een buzzer gestuurd!

Joe zegt:
Hope your TC goes better than mine, it seems like it's haunting me at the moment!
- zegt:
lol, you didn't do too bad
Joe zegt:
Physics will be fine
Joe zegt:
oh well, i just have to take what comes and hope for the best!
- zegt:
I see that donsig is still rambling about the TC though
Joe zegt:
Yes thats whats worries me, plus, this latest one has come 9 days after the TC so it looks like to me he went out of his way to find something wrong, of course i could be wrong!
- zegt:
well, donsig has been moaning for ages, about everything basically
Joe zegt:
He would make a good opposition party leader though!
- zegt:
it looks like Vassalage is winning
Joe zegt:
I know, would have prefered Bureacy to it, the warlord better make use of it!
- zegt:
which lacross matches today?
Joe zegt:
Both!
- zegt:
is my team playing?
Joe zegt:
Yes, against my team, i will do it first
Joe zegt:
1st playoff: UTD get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
2nd playoff: UTD get possession and score
Joe zegt:
3rd playoff: DABEST get possession and score! 1-1
Joe zegt:
4th playoff: DABEST get possession but miss!
Joe zegt:
5th playoff: UTD get possession and score! 2-1
Joe zegt:
6th Playoff: DABEST get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
7th playoff: UTD get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
8th playoff: DABEST get possession and score! 2-2
- zegt:
woot!
Joe zegt:
9th playoff: DABEST get possession but miss!
- zegt:
drumroll.............
Joe zegt:
10th playoff: UTD get possession but miss!
Joe zegt:
2-2 final score, now what
Joe zegt:
have a replay at a later date?
- zegt:
I dunno
- zegt:
these are the playoffs, aren't they?
Joe zegt:
yes
Joe zegt:
shall we consult the managers?
- zegt:
yeah, I suppose that's best
Joe zegt:
ok i put a message in with the scores
- zegt:
you could also pm Ice2k4 and George as they don't seem to visit the forums frequently
Joe zegt:
Yeah will do.
Joe zegt:
I will do the second matches now,
Joe zegt:
Do you want to listen in?
- zegt:
sure
Joe zegt:
1st playoff: FBHS get possession and score 1-0
Joe zegt:
2nd playoff: GD get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
3rd playoff: FHBS get possession and score! 2-0
Joe zegt:
4th playoff: FHBS get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
5th playoff: FHBS get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
6th playoff: GD get possession and score! 2-1
Joe zegt:
7th playoff: GD get possession and score! 2-2
Joe zegt:
8th playoff: FHBS get possession and score! 3-2
Joe zegt:
9th playoff: GD get possession but miss!
Joe zegt:
10th playoff GD get possession but miss
Joe zegt:
Final score FHBS 3-2 GD
- zegt:
not another tie
Joe zegt:
that would have been interesting!.....
Joe zegt:
sent messages to George and ice
Joe zegt:
Is BTS out in the Netherlands yet?
- zegt:
not as far as I know
Joe zegt:
Just asking, seems weird that australia should get it first!
- zegt:
it is weir
- zegt:
d
- zegt:
doesn't matter to me that much anyway though, I'll have the TC tomorrow, the new Harry Potter saturday and I'll be starting work on monday, so I've got enough on my hands
Joe zegt:
Well it comes out tormorrow and it's my last day of college, so perfect timing for me,
- zegt:
bclg100 should be online now, (he's on CFC)
Joe zegt:
ok, should one of us send him a pm?
- zegt:
already done
Joe zegt:
right i will just get civ 4 up and take a look
Joe zegt:
any luck?

Simon is aan het gesprek toegevoegd.

- zegt:
he'll be here to chat in about 5 minutes
- zegt:
joe, do you have a proposal for techs?
Joe zegt:
not quite yet, i am resending the save to piffle, hasn't worked agained
- zegt:
current deal is: Loco: Scientific Method, Physics, Electricity, and Railroad, Engineering, Chemistry, Rocketry, Economics
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Arty, Replaceable Parts and Assmebly line, Rifling, Corporation and Combustion
Joe zegt:
Right i am back
- zegt:
if Aloha does Scientific Method, Engineering, Assembly Line, Steel, Economics, how would the beakers be divided then?
Joe zegt:
hang on, each team would have to research 26312 beakers to reach the modern age (excluding techs should as medicine and so forth)
- zegt:
any luck dividing these techs between the teams?
Joe zegt:
hang on
Simon zegt:
hey
- zegt:
hey
Simon zegt:
sorry was seeing if there was anything for food
Simon zegt:
there wasnt
- zegt:
lol
Joe zegt:
hi
Simon zegt:
so whats up guys? joe= joe harker?
- zegt:
yep
- zegt:
he's trying to think up a tech plan
Simon zegt:
well first things that spring to mind is that teams should research what piffle/epsilon have done first
Simon zegt:
replaceable parts etc
- zegt:
we're doing replaceable parts atm
- zegt:
other important techs are chemistry, rifling, scientific method...
Joe zegt:
got it!!!!
- zegt:
great, show us
Simon zegt:
i doubt epsilon will be in too much of a hurry for sci meth
Joe zegt:
just a minute let me write it out neatly!
Joe zegt:
If aloha take Ecomonics, Corpoartion Assmebly line, Rockerty Scienfic M and Rifling, then i think that works out roughly the same
Joe zegt:
Can you check you get around 23000 beakers each for your teams?
Joe zegt:
Loco has 22594
- zegt:
Loco: Physics, Electricity, Railroad, Chemistry, Economics
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Artillery, Replaceable Parts Combustion
Aloha: Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Scientific Method, Rifling
Joe zegt:
Hang on we will research rifling instead of aloha
Simon zegt:
is anyone researching democracy?
- zegt:
Loco: Physics, Electricity, Railroad, Chemistry, Economics, Rifling
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Artillery, Replaceable Parts Combustion
Aloha: Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Scientific Method
- zegt:
not at the moment
Simon zegt:
that should be an essential tech
Joe zegt:
aloha has 22022, loco has 24590
Simon zegt:
i appreciate it isnt needed as such but cottage growth plus negatives of emancipation
- zegt:
sure
- zegt:
and biology? that's definetly a nice tech to have too
Simon zegt:
biology is required for space so should definatly throw that in
- zegt:
if we throw in Biology, Democracy and Industrialism, one tech/team, would the beakers still roughly match?
Joe zegt:
inoovia has 19448, ok innovia gets rifling and researches 22880 beakers, loco 21158 and aloha gets 22022 beakers
- zegt:
@bclg, this is just the techs until the modern age, not until the end
- zegt:
Loco: Physics, Electricity, Railroad, Chemistry, Economics
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Artillery, Replaceable Parts Combustion, Rifling
Aloha: Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Scientific Method
Simon zegt:
yeah i assumed as much
Joe zegt:
that sounds about right
Simon zegt:
but i would like to point out that we're not going to be researching anything else again anytime soon
Simon zegt:
not by choice of course
Joe zegt:
have you got engineering?
- zegt:
you'll be doing Scientific method first, aren't you?
Simon zegt:
yeah we got engineering the turn before
Simon zegt:
and we can get halfway to sci meth with our GS
Joe zegt:
We also used a GS on SM!
Simon zegt:
we havent actually used it yet
Simon zegt:
so if you want to continue on it by all means go for it
Simon zegt:
and we'll save it for the next tec
- zegt:
that's physics
Joe zegt:
don't worry you go for it, we need to research chemistry, which is why i asked you about engineering, if you catch my drift
Simon zegt:
yeah but we can always research chem- you've wasted a lot of beakers otherwise
Simon zegt:
or innovia could research chem or something it seems stupid to waste so many beakers like this
Joe zegt:
actually hang on, we haven't used it, jeejeep just moved it when he last played
- zegt:
okay, great
Joe zegt:
So you go for SM
Simon zegt:
oh ok we'll go for it then
- zegt:
okay
- zegt:
and we should probably all gift each other all techs as soon as possible
Joe zegt:
yes of course!
Joe zegt:
are we all happy?
- zegt:
I am
- zegt:
by the way, what are we going to do with divine right?
Joe zegt:
do we need to research it?
- zegt:
Aloha already has it AFAIK
Joe zegt:
Ok
- zegt:
but it's not really that usefull
Simon zegt:
about the tech gifting thing
Simon zegt:
i think we should only gift each other tech that epsilon/piffle have already unless we actually need it urgently
Simon zegt:
no point in making it cheaper for them
Simon zegt:
other than that im happy
- zegt:
that's true, but most techs will give us immediate benefits
Joe zegt:
Exactly
Simon zegt:
not really
Simon zegt:
for instance how many of you will be switching to representation straight away? (loco have rep)
- zegt:
I think it's generally best to send a message to eachother with the estimated time of completion for the current tech a few turns before completing it, to discuss the moment of gifting
- zegt:
I think we will actually, though I'm not sure
Joe zegt:
Ok i agree
Simon zegt:
sci meth- sure it shows oil but that's not going to help you so we could just tell you two where it is
Simon zegt:
not that we're trying to keep the tech but giving it to each of us straight away only makes it cheaper for the other two
Joe zegt:
Also it means that we have to stay neck and neck with epsilon/piffle
Simon zegt:
well it means that they wont be able to see how far ahead we are
Simon zegt:
economics etc we can trade instantly for the gnp bonus and things but should try and keep the trading to a minimum to lessen the tech costs
Simon zegt:
but if both teams think that we should trade instantly aloha will do so
- zegt:
no, I agree that we should keep it down as much as possible
Joe zegt:
I would prefer to gift straight away, although maybe with some techs that don't give an immediate bonus we could wait
Joe zegt:
actually yeah, wait until one of the other teams gets it
Joe zegt:
Ok then, is that it?
Simon zegt:
so these are the techs?
Simon zegt:
Loco: Physics, Electricity, Railroad, Chemistry, Economics
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Artillery, Replaceable Parts Combustion, Rifling
Aloha: Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Scientific Method
Joe zegt:
yes
Simon zegt:
to point out the obvious then, if we're not trading immediatly that should be altered slightly
Simon zegt:
f'rinstance, maybe aloha should grab physics seeing as sci meth is a pre req
Joe zegt:
that might be a problem...
Simon zegt:
also two people are researching economics
Joe zegt:
oh that was a typo
- zegt:
lol, back to the drawing board

Joe zegt:
noooooooooooooo
Simon zegt:
further, loco will probably finish chem before innovia finish replaceable parts and combustion and before we finish sci meth
Simon zegt:
what will they research in that time?
Simon zegt:
demo?
Joe zegt:
how about we stick with the current, especially since esplion is quite far ahead and won't know now far behind we are
Simon zegt:
im quite happy too but the second point really needs to be sorted out
Joe zegt:
whats the second point again, just so i don't answer the wrong question!
- zegt:
well, we could run 0% for some time to stack up gold, if it's really a problem, and then go 100% later
Joe zegt:
Or we could srcap the idea of doing the same amount of beakers and just decide what tech to do next when it comes to it
Simon zegt:
no the tech plan thing works well
Simon zegt:
i think we should stick with it
- zegt:
me too
Simon zegt:
just alterations as we go will probably needed
Simon zegt:
this works for time being im just thinking 20 turns ahead etc
- zegt:
as allways
Joe zegt:
ok thats fine, just putting an alternative in
Joe zegt:
I will need to go shortly
Simon zegt:
well aloha would be more happier just searching everything when we get it, our tech pace wont be setting the world alight
Joe zegt:
well if there are any problems let us know about it and we will work to get around the problem!
Joe zegt:
Right are we ok?
- zegt:
yeah, I am
Simon zegt:
yep think we are
Joe zegt:
Ok then, nice meeting you both today, i have now got to go and take the cat to the vets! bye!
Simon zegt:
cyas later joe
- zegt:
bye

Ok so is this the final deal?

Loco: Physics, Electricity, Railroad, Chemistry, Economics
Innovia: Steam power, Steel, Artillery, Replaceable Parts Combustion, Rifling
Aloha: Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Scientific Method

I do think we should just trade everything right away. Doing it the other way, trading only when needed, is slightly better but equires lots more coordination. Also as for Divine Right, Spiral Minaret is pretty cool, anybody interested in building it?

Does anyone know if it would be more efficient for Aloha to just give us all their research money because we have more Libraries/Uni/etc. More multipliers means we can make better use of the gold right?

Any comments on this proposed message:
Dear Aloha,

We noticed that you have an extra fur, if you don’t have other plans we’d appreciate it.

I hope you are finding the new map information interesting. It’s a shame we couldn’t get into their territory but we are still managing to uncover many new tiles.

Speaking of Piffle we were wondering if they ever reappeared. We are nearly done with Riffling, 3 turns. How is Scientific method coming?

Take care,
Team Innovia

I would mention that we want the fur as a substitute for the happiness we lose by cancelling the deal with Epsilon, otherwise it looks fine.

Fixed and sent.

Aloha agrees.

Hi Innovia

I think i gifted you fur last turn but i may not of so i'll attempt to do so again this turn.

After hitting enter there are 8 more turns left on our research for scientific method but this is heavily dependant on whether or not we get attacked by piffle again before that because the majority of research is being funded by scientists. We recently got another GS so if need be we could bulb it but we'd prefer to save it for the next tech to get us half way there!

Our apologies for the delay but obviously it's tricky building a civ back up whilst still at war and losing so many cities, chemistry (frigates) would be the best tech for us and we havent heard an exact time frame for getting it from loco, have they said anything more to you about it?

Kind regards
BCLG&Aloha

Have Aloha lost many cities?

I think 4.

Sent to Aloha:
Thanks we got the furs. I'm sending a note to Loco about chem, we're looking forward to it also.

1889 and Team Innovia.

Proposed letter to Aloha:

Greeting Aloha,

We just had a chat with the Pifflonians. They evidently plan to suckle at the Epsilonian teat until the very end. The only potential plan in the works is that we may get open borders. It would good to have a look around but we’d have to stop trading map info to you.

We are also supposed to try and work out peace between you two. I assume this topic has already been broached between your teams, any history you care to share there?

Lastly I was wondering if you would clear up one thing. Has Piffle kept any of the conquered cities?

We’ll be sending our latest map next turn along with Rifling, Steel in about 8 turns.

So long,
1889 and Team Innovia.


EDIT: Sent, also suggested a chat.

From Aloha:

Hello 1889,

That good news on Rifling. We should have Scientific Method in about 6 to send along.

I must say i along with the rest of my team are quite bemused by piffles request for you guys to help reach a peace agreement. They have not sent a single message to us since the attack. I sent a number of messages in the begining but none of them was answered. In the end i stopped bothering. I don't really know why they are dragging you into this, if they have anything to say they know how to contact us.

As for your question, piffle razed all the cities they took. Basically they attacked from their boats, razed and jumped back on the boats. The one landing they did try when they went after Hello we took out most of their stack without loss and they haven't tried since.

As for the chat, i will check with the team who is available, for me personally it would have to be on a weekend.

All the best
Robi D, Aloha

Sent to Aloha.
Aloha,

Long weekend over here, so I decided to work on ending your war. Probably wont work but it may keep Piffle from making more definite plans at least. To get negotiations going have you thought about what you would be able to afford in way of concessions?

Board,
1889 of Innovia

here is the reply
Hi,

Just a quick note back, if we forget to send one with all the pomp etc. I think the general consensus is that we'd give nothing toward them but instead demand they give stuff, we've already lost so why should we make it easier on the team that did that for us?

Regards
BCLG&cfc

Toooo Aloha:
Thats good news about Scientific Method. We finish Steel next turn and so can send it to you the turn after that.

Ok sounds great. We have a couple of GP's so we can bulb part of economics or physics. Is there any preferance for you guys. Also do you know what Loco are researching at the moment. says Aloha ebulliently.

I just sent them an email. I'll forward it to you as soon as I get an answer. 1889 replies, rubbing his hands together in anticipation.

How 'bout sending them a quick note thanking them for Economics and saying that we're going to do Physics next?

Sent to Aloha:

Aloha Aloha,

Thanks for Economics. We are two turns from Steam Power, but we have temporarily stopped research on that. We got another scientist and noticed that Physics is still unknown so we decided to use our scientist so we can get it first and earn the free GP. Physics will take 3-4 turns then we will finish Steam. Both techs will be sent to you as soon as we get them.

Wish us luck,
Innovia

Piffle wanted to know if you would be willing to work out a deal for physics. They are aslo interested in some form of long term cooperation throguh techs and military to deal with epsilon. Let us know what you think

We got this yesterday.

Hell yes, we do

we probably want to share techs with them, and I think it's a good idea if each team gets a small reaction fleet, so if someone gets attacked, the other teams can attack Epsilon in the back.

Sounds like good ideas. I don't realy trust Piffle after their last attempt to make a, for them, extremely favourable alliance, but turning them down is even more risky in the long run, so I reckon the risk/reward is balance is in favour of accepting their offer of an alliance.

I would have to agree with above, it's the best way to stop Epsilon running away with it. Possibly beelining for important miltary techs, industralism combustion, Flight/Arty.

Theoden, you have killercane's hotmail adress, right? Could you try to chat with him?

Theoden, you have killercane's hotmail adress, right? Could you try to chat with him?
I will do that if I manage to catch him, but he hasn't been online very much, if at all, lately. The same goes for Whomp.

A three way tech alliance is the way to go. I also like dutch's rapid deployment force idea.

Let’s try to get this chat set up:


Alohaians,

We are eager for another chat. We need to split up the tech tree to avoid any overlap (we just started Rail road BTW). We have also been contacted by Piffle and think it may be time to offer them another opportunity to join our club. How would you feel about a working together with them?

Please tell us who from your team would like to chat and what their MSN IDs are.

To facilitate a chat I'll remain logged into MSN throughout most of the day as 1889 (GMT -8), you can also keep a look out for....



If you would like to be an ambassador post your MSN ID and any info you wish to share about when you’re active so I can add it to our message.

evldrunen@msn.com - Generally active between 16.00 - 20.00 local time (15.00 - 19.00 GMT)

king_ednew AT hotmail DOT com - usually online somewhere between 14:00 and 22:00 (13:00 and 21:00 GMT).

Edited and sent.

Alohaians,

We are eager for another chat. We need to split up the tech tree to avoid any overlap (we just started Rail Road BTW). We have also been contacted by Piffle and think it may be time to offer them another opportunity to join our club. How would you feel about a working together with them?

Please tell us who from your team would like to chat and what their MSN IDs are.

To facilitate a chat I'll remain logged into MSN throughout most of the day as 1889 (GMT -8), you can also keep a look out for Dutchfire, evldrunen@msn.com - Generally active between 16.00 - 20.00 local time (15.00 - 19.00 GMT) and Theoden, king_ednew AT hotmail DOT com - usually online somewhere between 14:00 and 22:00 (13:00 and 21:00 GMT).

Hope to hear from you soon.
Team Innovia

robboo sent me this in along with the save of a pbem game I'm playing:


Aloha wants to chat about possible techs and war against Epsilon. We are in no position right now BUT if we can work on co-ordinating our builds and techs we may be able to hit them hard. Our team is down to maybe 3 members.

From Robboo to my personal e-mail:

OK whats your idea on how to deal with Epsilon. your on innovia right. Casey is on Piffle. Casey wants to nuke epsilon with lots of nukes.

Whats your idea...

Sent to Aloha:



Alohans,

We will finish corporation next turn. The plan, as you and Piffle know, was to share technologies and beat Epsilon to space. Unfortunately Piffle has traded for this technology while being fully aware that we were only a few turns away. We don’t know what sort of understanding you have with them but we don’t understand it.

The only way to out-tech Epsilon is to cut them out of our trades, but we have to admit that even if we did get the techs first building and launching the ship is a whole nuther matter. We also think military action, satisfying as it might be, is unlikely to turn the game in our favor. There was a slim chance of UN victory, but Piffles unreliable support kills any hope there as well.

Long story short, we are ready to concede victory to Epsilon. I was thinking of posting to that effect in the main forum with the suggestion that we all work toward the UN so that we can elect The Leader as quickly as possible as long as Epsilon promises to make one last EEN episode.

-1889 of Team Innovia

We've got mail.

As I understand it..Epsilon and Piffle had an agreement till Electricity. So this was sort of expected. This game is loss and honestly I thik what you propose is a good idea BUT I wouldnt make it public. It would make epsilons victory hollow. Besides I want Piffle to think they have a shot then see us back stab them. They went from talking about military cooperation to attacking us in the span of 10 turns.

So, we'll beeline Mass Media, rush the UN (can we get a Great Engineer?), then vote for Epsilon, together with Aloha? I think it's kinda cool.

Yup.

To Aloha:

Aloha,

Finished Corporation. Since Piffle is unreliable we plan to research electricity, radio and mass media. Then to increase production we finish railroad if necessary. Hopefully we can get assembly line also and build a factory before we begin the UN. We will also try to develop a great engineer.

Home stretch,
Team Innovia

OK i know they are going for electricity. can you go another route for a turn or two to let me see if they plan on gifting those techs.( run zero science for gold increase) IF they dont then I think we may want to follow PLAN B.

I don't even want to waste the two turns, but what say you?

Well, if we save up gold for two turns, we can run 100% later.

Thats true. Ok, well go zero for a few turns.

From Aloha with the save:

HEy guys...any word on what you think of Piffles deal. They are gettign nervous about you not replying.

Considering what happened to our short lived tech alliance I think we should ask for their techs as a sign of trust before risking our lives on a military adventure.

If they do give us the techs then we would have to stall the attack until we build the UN.

Also what do you think about leaking the plans and screen shots to Epsilon?

Absolutely ask for the techs first as a sign of trust. As things stand it seems we can't really trust Piffle.

I'm not so sure about 'leaking' the plans to Epsilon though, maybe that's something to discuss later on.

Why would we want to leak to plan to Epsilon? All it would do is screw our reputation and end the game in an unsportly manner... or have I missed something?

To Aloha and Piffle:



Dear Piffletarians,

Considering how short lived our tech alliance was we are not inclinded to enter into any military adventure with you at this time. Sharing your technologies with us would help to create a trusting and cooperative relationship that has so far been lacking in our deelings with you and which are so necessary for any sort of military alliance.

We hope you understand our position,
Team innovia

Is that too harsh? Please sugest any corrections and I'll send it tonight.

P.S. Leaking the plans to Epsilon was meant to finally ruin the Epsilon-Piffle tech alliance. But I think your right, its just a bad idea.

I would go for something that will give them more incentive to send their techs to us. After all, we could certainly do with them. How many techs are they ahead?

Dear Piffletarians,

Considering the extremely short-lived nature of our past tech alliance, you must understand that our trust and faith in you is a little lacking at present, and so we are not inclined to enter into any military adventures with you at this time. However, if you would be willing to share your technological discoveries with us, this would certainly help to lay down some foundations of trust, and we could begin to consider your plans for a military alliance. Sharing your technologies would help to rebuild the trusting and cooperative relationship that has so far been lacking in our dealings with you, and which is essential if we are to align forces in a military campaign. If we cannot trust you, we cannot have the kind of relationship which is very necessary for any sort of military alliance, and so we cannot agree to your plan.

We hope you understand our position,
Team Innovia

P.S. Leaking the plans to Epsilon was meant to finally ruin the Epsilon-Piffle tech alliance. But I think your right, its just a bad idea.Yeah, I was fairly dubious myself. I really don't think it's a good idea either, at least at this stage.

Sent Parkin's note to Piffle and Aloha.

Rob says tro us:

Please forward their responses. Dont let on that your telling Aloha the conversation. IF we can catch them in a lie then we will know what they are up to. They have indicated to me that they will not gift over the techs so we may have come to a end with working with them unless your ultimatum results in them rethinking their course. IF they indicate that they are targeting you I will make sure you know as soon as I do.

Should we warn them of the Epsilon fleet? I am not entirely convinced it is going to us yet.

That probably is a good idea just to give them a heads up that something may be happening.

Joe posted something on Jan 11. Joe do you remember wherte you got the tech alliance sugestion from?

The discussion with Piffle was all in the f4 screen. Basically we told them twice what we were working on and the would get bach to us a few turns latter saying they are further along could we research something else. I'll try and post the actuall conversations when I get some time tonight.

It came from our gmail account inbox from Aloha :)

We wrote:

Epsilon has three loaded galleons within range of our coast. We have prepared for the worst. We'll keep you appraised of developments.

Team Innovia

They wrote
OK let me me know if I can help. Get some ships over there to cut off there escape. Also tell me exactly where and I can see if I have anything in range to gift over.

Oh, along with the save rob asked hows it going, says they'll have artillery in 2-3 turns and offered to send troops.

I said things aren't great, that tech would be good and not to bother sending troops.

Rob sent this note along with the save:

Finally... You guys hang around a bit longer... I am about to do something that will shock you.

I said:

Rodger that, were doing our best, but you should probably hurry if you really want us to see it. :)

They also asked for a map swap and I agreed.