Rhye’s and Fall of Civilization Expanded
for BOTH Vanilla AND Warlords Civ 4 Rhye's and Fall of Civilization!
Currently at V.1.95-1.25 and W.1.46-0.10 and W.1.46-0.10-IDW

INSERT WITTY CATCH PHRASE HERE!

Vanilla.1.97-1.20: SHAZAM! (http://files.filefront.com//;7635043;/)
Warlords.1.47-0.10: HUZZAH! (http://files.filefront.com//;7638008;/)

Warlords.1.46-0.10 (Just Influence Driven War): HOODY-HOO! (http://files.filefront.com//;7224200;/) (NOT Yet Updated)

NOTE: when downloading, both the Vanilla and Warlords .zip files have the SAME NAME. Once unzipped they will STILL have the same name. Differentiate between the two with the standard power and chain rules. Or possibly by the RFC++ Readme file located inside the folder. Be aware however, that if you unzip both files into the same folder they WILL OVERWRITE EACH OTHER.

The NEW Install Instructions:
To Install this mod, all you need to do is extrect the file, and copy and paste the SECOND folder called RFC++ (NOT RFC, and NOT the RFC++ Folder immediately inside the RFC Folder, for some reason FileFront added a RFC Folder, I don't know why) into your Civilization 4\Mods Directory, (In your Mods Folder you should have a folder called RFC++, and imediately inside that folder you should have a folder marked Assets, another marked PrivateMaps, and a whole bunch of .ini files!. Then start Civ 4, go to advanced, Load a Mod, and Load RFC++! Its that Easy, plus, if you call now, you'll win, A BRAND NEW CAR!!
..
..

Okay, I lied about the car.

also alternatively to using the 'load a mod' menu in cIV, you can make a copy of your cIV shortcut (not the executable that launches the game, a shortcut that points to that executable), open the 'properties' of the shortcut, and put mod="Mods\RFC++ on the end of the field marked 'target' AFTER the quotes that are around the address. YOu can also do this for normal RFC, by putting mod="Mods\Rhye's and Fall of Civilization. Then, when ever you start cIV using that shortcut, it will start the game in RFC++ automatically.



VISHAING BEGINS VISHAING'S CIVICS BALANCER AND EXPANDER PROJECT!
CHAOS IN THE STREETS! MAYHEM IN THE CITIES!
Story at Eleven




These are the civic ideas I have right now:

I decided to try going to 6 civics per category, since there will be 6 categories, this should preserve the square (6X6, instead of a 6X5 rectangle) also I had a little trouble condensing some of the categories into less than 6 options. Particularly labor.

Links to other civics threads:
Ideas for Civic changes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192333)
An idea for expanding civics ... with matter! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192531)
New civic system? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182337)

*** Denotes civic Category being actively discussed

Government:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None, Stability: Yeah Right)
No Effects:

Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low, Stability: +10/-80 "Stable")
+50% commerce, hammers and great person points in capital, +1 culture from Courthouse

Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low, Stability: +15/-50 "Very Stable")
+1 happiness per military unit in a city

Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle, Stability: +25/-50 "Extremely Stable")
+25% culture in all cities, +2 culture from palace, and +25% millitary production in capitol

Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle, Stability: +20/-10 "Extremely Stable")
+20% mil. production, +1 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail.

Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high, Stability: +5/-90 "Affords fragile stability)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without, +1 health in all cities


Social:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Bureaucracy (tech: Writing, upkeep: Medium)
+1 happiness / culture with courthouse, +1 happiness with Granary, +1 happiness with Academy (that's a lot of happiness, will really help in the early game period, but I feel there should be another bonus and some penalty. I think the +5% commerce with grocer and market might be a good bonus, but I can't think of a good malus.

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+2 free specialist, -50% great person births

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+25% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+50% culture in all cities, +1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 happy in 5 largest cities.

Labor::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sustenance: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Slavery: (tech bronze working, upkeep : middle)
+1gold and +1 food on planations, +2 unhappy, pop. rush, +50% worker speed

Serfdom: (tech feudalism, upkeep : low)
+1 food from pastures, +1 happy from castle, +25% worker speed, I would add something to monastaries, as they were the centre of culture and science in those days, maybe +1 science/culture?

Guilds: (tech guilds, upkeep : medium)
*********
engineer +1hammer, merchant +1gold, scientist +1science, artist +2culture
OR
specialists: +1commerce,culture
*********
Town, village +1gold, +1 happy from walls

Industrialism: (tech : steam power, upkeep : low)
+1 free engineer all cities, +10% production, +1 unhealthy, -1g towns/villages, +10% city maintenance

Service Sector; (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce

Economy::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
Not sure about this one, Ideas?

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Medium)
+2 :traderoute: , +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

State Property: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 :) with forest, +2 :health: per city.


***Religion::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Paganism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No State Religion, +1 happiness in cities without a state religion, +1 culture per obelisk

Organized Religion: (tech: Monotheism, upkeep: Low)
Can Build State Religion's Missionary without a Monastery, +25% production in cities with state religion, unlimeted priests

Theocracy: (tech: Theology, upkeep: High)
No Non State Religion Spread, can construct inquisitors, + 2 happiness from State Religion. +1 from non state religion. +2 xp for soldiers.

Pacifism: (tech: Philosophy, upkeep: Low)
Vanilla: +1 upkeep per mil. unit, +50% great person points, + 50% culture
Warlords: +1 upkeep per mil. unit, +75% great person points, + 75% culture, +50% more great general point needed for birth

Atheism: (tech: Scientific Method, upkeep: High)
No State Religion, no non state religion spread, +30% science in all cities, +1 from non state religion, can build Secret Police (an inquisitor like unit I’m going to create.) +1 happy from amphitheatre

Free Religion: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 happy from Non State Religion, no State Religion. +10% science in all cities. +1 happy from ampitheatre


Unionization:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disunity: (Starting Civic, Upkeep: None)
No effects

City States: (tech: writing, Upkeep: Low)
-50% distance maintenance, -50% number of cities maintenance, -40% :hammers: in all cities save the capitol. +2 free units per city (This should let Greece conquer a massive Empire really quickly)

Commonwealth: (tech: Compass, Upkeep:)
+100% domestic trade profit, +1 trade routes per coastal cities.

Imperialism: (tech: Iron Working, Upkeep: Medium)
+50% military unit production, +1 culture / commerce per 10% foreign culture in a city.

Colonialism: (tech: Astronomy, Upkeep: Medium)
(desired effect): -50% distance maintenance for any city beneath size 4 that has a luxury resource within its city radius. +1 trade routes in these cities.

Sovereign Nations: (tech: Mass Media, Upkeep: Low)
Increases Diplomatic Relations. (If the enhanced conquest options are implemented) Can only Temporarily Occupy a city




The normal starting post Is Back for Now!

Inside this Spoiler is the original install instructions and Files

Download: Two files, the Core files and the art files.
CORE: Yahoo! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3133)
ART: Huzzah! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3134)

Install Instructions

I would suggest you preserve a copy of the vanilla RFC so you can take
advantage of Rhye's updates right after he gets them, and not have to wait for me to update this monstrosity, so here are your install instructions:
If you do not want to preserve a copy of RFC, then ignore step 1.

1) copy the entire Rhye's and Fall of Civilization folder into the same place, so you should end up with "Copy of Rhye's and Fall of Civilization" in your \Mods folder.

2)Rename the copied folder to RFC++, go inside the folder and rename the file Rhye's and Fall of Civilization.ini, to RFC++.ini (I hope your starting to see a pattern, because it won't affect anything anymore.)

3) Extract RFC++ CORE.zip somewhere, inside should be a folder conveniently named RFC++, copy that folder over the likewise named folder in the mods\ directory, overwriting all files.

4) Extract RFC++ ART.zip somewhere else, inside should be a folder marked, Art. Copy that folder over the likewise named folder in the mods\RFC++\Assets\ directory, again replacing all files. (there shouldn't be any)

5) Start up Civ 4 Vanilla, go to advanced, choose 'load a mod' and load RFC++

6)Choose start a scenario, start up the scenario called Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, and you should be good to go!


Rhye’s and Fall of Civilization is a wonderful mod, likely the king of mods, not because it has a lot of flashy new units and buildings, or other unnecessary things, but because it is a well polished piece of coding genius, that hides a wonderful new experience in the same candy coating of the original civ. The features, some, if not most of which are available purely through Rhye’s Masterpiece, are innovative improvements on an already stupendous game.
One thing RFC also wishes to do is improve the general balance of the game itself, while trying not to add too much stuff, after all, Like Montgomery Scott of Star Trek said, “The more you reroute the Plumbing, the Easier it is to stop up the Drain.” I, Vishaing, shall be your plumber for the day.
My plan is simply to merge mod components that I feel help balance Vanilla civ, without detracting from the beauty of RFC. All changes to the game are of course unofficial unless Rhye decides he likes them enough to ‘endorse’ them, however that doesn’t mean we can’t try new stuff.

So, I’ve begun work on Rhye’s and Fall of Civilization Expanded, or as I have affectionately dubbed it, RFC++.

I figure that while Rhye is doing the important stuff like advancing new features, or balancing old ones, you know, doing the actual work involved in making the mod, it would be nice if someone would help the job by carrying out one of the far easier steps, merging mod components.

Qualities required in all Mod Components, or at least intently desired:
Any mod can be suggested, however I intend to select the mods I will try and merge based on how I think Rhye would choose them. Therefore there are three things I want from the component before I begin merging code;
1: Completeness
2: Balance:
3: Relevance:
4: Documentation
5: Warlords
In that order.

1: Completeness remains RFC patron distinguishing aspect, it is a very complete game. Even the beta versions were extremely complete in their half constructed ness. Now that were in the official final release state, we need to hold this maxim to an even higher level.

2: The new additions must be balanced; I will not unbalance the game. If a mod component is not balanced, but promises to be balanced later, I will include it, later. Of course, if two mod components balance each other, I will consider them to be one single mod component, if one can prove they balance each other.

3: Relevance is also important. This also contains historical truth. RFC above all tries to be at least marginally historically accurate, in that history can happen, but the player can control the overall outcome. This is no more evident than in the Rise and Fall system, the founding aspect of this mod. Therefore mod components that go against history, such as the inclusion of units that were never used, like Civ 3’s Double your Pleasure’s Dinosaurs, will not be included. I will also not yet accept any ‘future’ mods. Also, the relevance pertains to relevance to balance and realism. No matter how cool a feature may be, if it is not relevant to the system or history, I likely will turn it down. A good example of historical relevance and niftiness is the MAD Nukes mod. This mod is extremely cool, and also finally represents what the world’s two superpowers did for roughly 50 years. I consider that important enough. This area will likely get the most discussion.

4: I need Documentation of the mod component. I apologize, but I have no intentions of sifting through several thousand lines of code to try and find the single line that is changed. TheLopez is free from ever worrying about this, as he is a veritable God of Documentation. If you can get the creator to tell me what lines he changed, then I can work with it. Also, xml files are small enough and repetitive enough I can deal with not having documentation, but Python files are another matter, and I would have to be far more insane than I am to even think of combing through the SDK.

5: Finally, Warlords is another key point. Xml mods need not worry about this, but if a python or SDK mod only exists in Vanilla form I will be loathe to include it, as I would hate for a person to grow so attached to the mod comp that it prevents them from switching to warlords. Some mods however, if they are small enough, I may be able to convert them myself.

The following post(s) contain my mod component list(s).

Further things to do:
*Get a nifty graphic type thing to put at the top of the thread. (taking submissions, all you Photoshop wizards you.)

"I came, I saw, I modded."
-Julius Vishaing - 1987 till sometime later than that

Included Mods:

MAD Nukes Mod: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168858)
I lowered the intercept nuke chance of the SDI from 75% to 25% to make it more realistic with contemporary predictions of Missile Interception technologies and to make Nukes more powerful, as I feel they should be. Furthermore, I am contemplating remove the U.N. Nuclear Arms Ban Resolution.
*Contemplation continues about the U.N. Resolution, the SDI has been changed again, instead of giving the SDI a flat intercept rate, I have lowered the intercept rate to 5%, but increased the max number of team instances to 10.

Inquisition Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187623)
COMPLETE

Influence Driven War (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188007&highlight=Influence+Driven+War)
Influence Gained and lost has been tweaked so the looser loses more culture than the attacker gains. This means a long drawn out see saw war will eventually result in a 'no-man's land' that no one has control over.

Icebreaker: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=153566&highlight=Icebreaker)
COMPLETE

Unit Allegiance Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169738&highlight=Unit+Allegiance+Mod)
COMPLETE

Intended Mods:

Air Forces Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184530)

Pirates Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173859)

Plot List Enhancement (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149572)
I intend to furnish this as its own download, as I know there are a fair number of people who do not want this in the game

Specialist Stacker (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156185)

Enhanced Tech Conquest: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171748)

Regiments (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159352&highlight=Regiments)

Cultural Influences: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170884)
Changed the config file so borders do not spread over ocean. UPDATE: Now also Changed such that cities begin with the 3X3 culture square border, and then expand slowly to Legendary Culture.

My Informant Mod!
My Informant mod adds a single unit to the classical era and after (It does NOT become obsolete). This unit is invisible, can enter enemy territroy, has a movement of 1, starts with sentry, and can steal opponent's millitary plans. You can have a maximum of 3. (Currently you can have a max of 3 informants, and 6 spies. i think I may make it a max of 3 classical informants, add another type of informant which you can have another 3 of in the medieval era, and then lower the spies back to 3, so in total you can have 9 espionage type units, but 6 of them won't be as powerful as the other three, and you won't get those six right off the bat.) The Informant is only buildable at the palace, but only costs 40 production.

Speculated Mods:

Dale’s Combat Mod: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168966)
Dale’s Combat mod is High on my list of desired mods, however I have heard rumors of instability. Until these rumors are either substantiated or disproved, I shall not incorporate this mod into RFC++.

Snaitf’s Show Attitude Mod:
Lacks Documentation, so I know not what I am doing.

Dead Civ Scoreboard Mod:
I know this is a highly desired mod comp, and I really want to include it, but it modifies 2 lines of code that Rhye also modifies, and currently my understanding of the SDK and in particular Rhye’s code is not enough for me to reconcile the mod comp. Over the weekend I will take a further look at the code, but If I can’t get it to work, I’ll have to either ask Rhye for help, or we will just have to wait for him to implement it himself. The problem is fairly large too, as with the code in I keep getting the message ‘You have been defeated!’ immediately upon the game starting.

Some form of Second UU mod:
I know I could tackle this, if people want to propose unit graphics, be my guest, but I will only do this if ALL civs have a second UU, remember the first requirement. (UPDATE: I may use THIS (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=156997) second UU mod, Not sure, needs testing.
*UPDATE Since it seems Rhye plans to include a Second UU in RFCW, most of the work will be done, and all I'll have to do is convert from Warlords to Vanilla, which I've done before.

Rhye's and Fall of Civilization EPIC!
Looking into converting the game to an 'Epic' or 'Marathon' speed, I now know where the starting dates are storred in the .dll, so I should be able to do this. Plus most of the work is already done, because i tried to do this a while ago before I learned there were hard coded dates in the .dll

Status of the Next Build:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Vishaing/fightingthebugs3.jpg

DALE'S COMBAT MOD!?!

0%:

Mods Included in the Next Build:
POSSIBLY, Dale's Combat Mod.

This plan is VERY TENTATIVE.

File Sharing servers that I will upload the mod to:
FileFront

************************************************** *****
Credits:

ALSO! I just remembered I should not steal from people and should give credit to all of the modmakers who actually did work;

Of course, the mod itself was made by the one and only Rhye, but the mod components came from such prestigious coders as;
TheLopez! (Like there was any doubt in your mind he would be here)
Optimizer! (Beautiful, really, both your name, and the concept behind it)
Moctezuma! (Thats one small mod in code, one giant mod in function)
Snaitf (Even if he is no longer here to be credited)
ME! (I have a Mod in here!)

Woot first post, I knew it was worth staying up past 2...
...also its been 30 minuits :P...

Cool! :cool:

Good job! :goodjob:

How about adding ethnic units?

There is some collection of units that can be included. Rabbit White's EDU
and some ethnic units that arent compied into one pack like rabbit whites pack.

Just remember, adding them as ethnic units. Ethnic units do not need their strength changed but just alters vanilla units graphically.:D
No unbalancing!!

Great Idea by the way.:goodjob:

Perhaps play this non-official version of Rhye ;)

Good luck !

Vishaing, were you OK with the DLL?

@Rhye; yes, once I kick started up my brain again, it turned out I had entered a linker into the wrong spot, so it was looking for files where none existed. I removed the linker, and built it fine.

@Spartan117; I intend on making a seperate 'ethnic units for RFC' modpack, mostly because with the problems I had getting this to upload because of size, I don't think I could get the full thing to upload with ehtnic units included, and the install is already complicated enough in my oppinion. However, keep suggesting mod packs, but also please provide a link, as I would prefer to not have to comb the forum personally for them.

@Everyone else; Thank you very much, I try.

:goodjob: Pretty cool, Vishaing.

Idea: If Rhye anticipates work to RFCW, Vishaing could make those changes to RFC, if he can.

I haven't tried it much but I love the new cultural borders. Thanks Vishaing.

@Hitti-Litti; Yes, I plan on trying to 'reverse engineer' all new features that Rhye puts into RFCW into RFC Expanded. Some features I won't be able to since they might require Warlords specific coding, but overall I should be able to for most. For instance, once Rhye releases the RFCW I plan to try and convert the revisited Revolution and plagues system into RFC Expanded, unless of course Rhye does that himself, which he might.

If you read this Rhye, I have no problem trying to convert the code from Warlords to Vanilla so you can focus on Warlords.

@Phallus; Thanks, I thought the slow cultural borders fit with the shorter city range, plus it helps civs in crowded spots not have to worry about cultural overlap as much.

instead of giving the SDI a flat intercept rate, I have lowered the intercept rate to 5%, but increased the max number of team instances to 10.

Erm ... so this means what? I assume "Team Instances" is something that will make up for the pitiful 5% intercept chance (might as well spend the hammers on a bunch of nukes of my own ... or is that the goal? ;) ), but ... what is it, exactly?

@LBaeldeth; The "Team Instances" means that you (or your teammates if RFC was multiplayer compatible) can build up to 10 of them, and I believe the effect should be cumulative. What this means is that if you build 1, each nuke has a 5% chance of being intercepted, if you build 3, that's 15%, if you build all ten, that's the new max percent of 50%. I think, if it turns out to NOT be cumulative, please send me a report and I'll change it back to a flat 1 per team with a 30% intercept chance. (In my oppinion nukes in Civ 4 were VASTLY underpowered, I'm trying to rectify that while giving players incentive to spend a LOT on SDI defense)

Also, I'm looking into modifying an AI attitude modifier for nukes targeted at them.
I think if you have 1 or two, they will dislike you, but if you have more than that, they will start to like/fear you. I hope this will help start 'cold wars' between AIs, where they dislike each other, but are too afraid to actually attack.

Just tried you mod and it is a vastly different experience from normal RFC. I really like it.
My only problem with it is the dynamic ice mod. Ice sometimes grows out of control. In my last game, the passage between the southern tip of South America and Antartica was completely block by ice. And I mean lots of it. It had growed up to the Falkands islands in fact. At the same time, in the north, ice had gone down in the Atlantic in a long line up to about the lowest city on Ireland. Another annoying thing was the fact that some lakes up north got covered with ice too.
I don't know if it is a random occurance or simply that the mod is not adjusted to RFC, but I just wanted to let you know.

The titanic got hit by an ice burg further south than england, but your right it ended up like that on mine to and it is a bit over the top...

Hmmm, I haven't encountered any problems with the Dynamic Icecaps mod, but I also haven't explored to the north yet (I'm Rome and the Euopean civs just spawned) I'll take a look at it, and perhaps put a minimum/maximum latitude value in, something like the Space Elevator except reversed.

If it still is out of control, I'll look at lowering the spawn disappear rates.

Actually, if you wouldn't mind, I'ld like to contract you into looking into it.

If you delete your cashe, any changes will affect your current saved games so long as their not too extreme, so go into;
Assets->XML->Terrain

open CIV4FeaturesInfos.xml
and under the FEATURE_ICE, fool around with the

<iDisappearance>50</iDisappearance>
<iGrowth>50</iGrowth>

values, see whether lower or higher changes it for better or worse. I suggest lower, but keep them the same or else you'll eventually wind up with either an ice world or one with no ice.

I'm not a noob bu wuld be nice if you have a folder

"Mod/prepacked thing

Because would be more easy ...

I would like to suggest a minimod, by TheLopez. Sado Macho suggested it earlier in the other thread for this sort of thing, and I thought it seemed like a great idea.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=137

Basically, cities that are captured don't lose all of their culture, which is something I always found really unrealistic.

Oh, jeez. I just realized that the "enhanced culture mod" includes this one. Sorry.

Thanks a lot.

I find that the culture mod improves gameplay a great deal and have yet to run into any bugs that are not already present in the current standard version of the mod.

Okay people, I need a bit of information. Despite what the status bar says right now, I'm starting on the next build, and intend on adding two formal mod comps, plus my own mini-mod-comp inclusion.

Now, about the upload, there are a few ways I plan on doing it. I plan on uploading just the files changed in this build to the Civ Fanatics File Database, but I also plan on uploading the full mod to another File Database. Right now I'm going to Upload to FileFront, does anyone have any other requests?

Oh, by the way, the next build's mods are going to be edited into the status bar in post 5.

I think the best settings for the Ice mod would be 51% disappearance and 49% appearance. It is only a 1% change, but over the course of 550 turns, it should do its job, meaning that near the end of the game, you would have actually little ice left (globalwarming). Just an idea.

The Influence Driven War mod is fantastic! I hope Rhye includes it in the main mod! :D

The Influence driven war is tiny, very tiny considering the very large change, and the Enhanced Tech Conquest mod is only Python, so I should be able to release the next build by wednesday, thursday at the latest.

I'll also try giving the icecaps the 49%-51% appear dissapear rates suggested by Captain Beaver.

Currently FileFront is still the only server (other than the Civ Fanatics one) which I will be loading the file on, if you have any prefered file servers, please post them.


EDIT: Actually, given that I'm compiling the Influence Driven War .dll now, and am likewise merging the Enhanced Tech Conquest code, I should probably be able to post the next build tonight, provided there are no major bugs of course.

After playing a game with the English of RFC++, I've decided I like it, quite a bit in fact. I haven't gotten to nukes just yet, but I'm not too far. The culture mods are great, and I like the ice thing too, it's nifty. I think it's fine the way it is, myself.

Anyways, great work Vishaing!

RFC++ Version 1.38-0.20 EXPLODES Onto the Internet!

U.N. Security Council Reportedly in an Unstoppable Huff!

Millions take to the Streets! Claim Ignorance, Insist they were just checking the Mail!


P.S. This update will NOT invalidate your saved games from RFC++ v1.38-0.10

P.S.S. If anyone can tell me what the update message actually comes from, they might get something cool. Or at least a bit of appreciation.

Thx for making RFC even better! But something that have annoyed me for a long time is that religions are never founded in your capitol! unless its your only city... Could you perhaps tell me how to change this i see no reason why a religion wouldnt be able to be founded in your capitol.

I think it's possible for them to be founded in your capital city but it's biased away from and towards your newest cities (could well be wrong).

RFC++ Version 1.38-0.20 EXPLODES Onto the Internet!

U.N. Security Council Reportedly in an Unstoppable Huff!

Millions take to the Streets! Claim Ignorance, Insist they were just checking the Mail!


P.S. This update will NOT invalidate your saved games from RFC++ v1.38-0.10

P.S.S. If anyone can tell me what the update message actually comes from, they might get something cool. Or at least a bit of appreciation.
National Enquirer? Or any good paper who prefers to invent the news before it actually happens :D ?

RFC++ Version 1.38-0.20 EXPLODES Onto the Internet!

U.N. Security Council Reportedly in an Unstoppable Huff!

Millions take to the Streets! Claim Ignorance, Insist they were just checking the Mail!

Sounds like a headline from the newspaper in SimCity...

Just asking: has it now been updated for Rhye's of Civilization 1.42?

Not yet, I'll likely be working on that today, perhaps, but I will get it done by Friday (as I have a long weekend for University Day). First I need to get the SDK changes from Rhye. Overall however, it depends on whether or not Rhye gives me all of the files that have always been in the SDK, or just the newly changed ones. Obviously if he can get me just hte newly changed ones, the update will be much easier for me. Even if he can't however, I have a system that shouldn't take too long.

In the 'modifiedfiles.txt' it lists the version in the form x.xx - y.yy The x.xx is the RFC version, whereas the y.yy is the RFC++ version. I'll post what version the download is in the first post to help clear things up.

P.S. About the update message, I got that from a webcomic called Kagerou, it might not have been the first place to post it though, so I don't really know. I just thought it was really funny and they say impersonation is the greatest form of flattery right?

@Spartan117; I intend on making a seperate 'ethnic units for RFC' modpack, mostly because with the problems I had getting this to upload because of size, I don't think I could get the full thing to upload with ehtnic units included, and the install is already complicated enough in my oppinion. However, keep suggesting mod packs, but also please provide a link, as I would prefer to not have to comb the forum personally for them.


Great!!

White Rabbits EDU(includes the most variety)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167435

Sepamu's African ethnic units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189492

Sepamu's Arabian units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174850&highlight=Arabian+units

Sezerth's units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166925

These are packs of ethnic units. There are more that can be used as ethnic units but I didnt want to give a bigger list of threads unless you ask. ;)

I normally post the threads associated with my suggestion but I made this suggestion for rhyes mod before without much response. So i wasnt really expecting a response.:D


To slow down loading times for graphics

Kael's How to get your mod to load faster

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187699

@Spartan117; thanks for the links. Also, it wasn't the loading speed that will be a problem, it was more that there was no way I would have been able to upload the actual mod to the File Database with that much graphics in it, without choping it down into almost individual folders. My computer is weird sometimes. Since I've used FileFront however, Its been far easier, and I shouldn't have a problem.

Now then, to the next update, I will have RFC++ V. 1.42 - 0.20 uploaded within the hour, I think. I have the SDK compiling right now, and the other changes will be so simple to make, now that Rhye has shown me the beautiful glory that is the program Beyond Compare. i whole heartedly suggest that anyone who needs to compare files and folders bye it.

Now then, I return to coding. Once this version update is done I will start looking at mod comps for the next real update.

1.42 - 0.20 is now posted, it is compatible with and includes Rhye's changes. Sorry it took more than an hour, I forgot about it when I went to dinner.

One weird thing with the influence driven war: when I capture a city, it often has something like 162% of my nationality, which doesn't make sense. It might just be a problem with the basic influence driven war, might not.

Just thought you should know.

same here.

I too have had this problem, however i currently know of no way to solve it. Fortunately enough it is NOT a problem with the actual engine, merely a problem with the interface. The game mechanic works perfectly, the interface simply has trouble telling you how its working. I think it might have something to do with the 'civ's culture / total culture' ratio, and how the total culture is changing or civ's culture is changing.

OR, it could be an inherent incompatibility between the Influence driven war and the Enhanced Culture Conquest. If so I believe it is likely in the 'culture shock' function if it is an incompatibility, in which case disabling that should fix it. I will take a look at the Config.ini file and test this out, but I make no promises. Rest assured however, the culture is still corectly created, just incorrectly reported.

One weird thing with the influence driven war: when I capture a city, it often has something like 162% of my nationality, which doesn't make sense. It might just be a problem with the basic influence driven war, might not.

Just thought you should know.

Same problem here, but on a different scale. As France, I had to resettle Bordaux which was razed by Roman AI when they captured it. However, it had 1820% barbarian nationality at start! And only 2% French... It isn't that big a deal that the numbers are flawed, but it still gave me -24 happyness because the barb part of the population wanted to "join their motherland". The 2 citizens started rioting, one of them starved, the other is still rioting so I can't build anything. At least, when christianity came to the city, it started producing culture, so I'm down to 720% barb nationality and only -11 happyness :lol: .

Yeah I've seen it in the thousands, though fortunately not within the city and not a culture other than mine.

Another thing, When I hover over the science bar, it says the total amount of beakers I've produced out of the max, and then below where it would say the total amount of turns left it says like 24358729342306 turns left. It's something like that anyways, I can't remember exactly because I don't have Civ running right now.

Playing on emperor as Rome, ironicly the game is almost easier that on normal diff since the barbarians destory many of the otherwise powerfull AI civs for me. Egypt, Persia, Arabia, China are destoyed by barbarians and russia seems to be next... This overpowered barbarians are destorying the fun of playing.

hmm, To my knowledge this is less a problem with RFC++, and more a tweak that needs to be made to RFC. Then again however, playing on normal difficulty, I have not once seen a civ fall, so perhaps the Emperor barbarian strength is compensating for some mod components making the game easier? I'll look into what could give the civs an easier time against the barbs.

Oh, something I didn't post about in the 'included mods for next build' part of my status post, I plan to look at the Influence driven war code, because it needs to be tweaked. Between it and the Cultural conquest code it is ridiculously easy to conquer lands. Generally after winning a large battle somewhere the land will be completely mine. However, I have an idea that might help.

What if;
the culture the victor received was vastly less than the culture the loser lost. This owuld in effect simulate the collateral losses of warfare. Furthermore with a long winded fight over a single front, the culture will eventually be destroyed, creating a 'no man's land' along the front, similar to what happened in world war 2. This should only happen later on however, because it will require constant combat along a front, and that only really happens in the later eras when units can be pumped out and railroads can transport them quickly.
I'm also going to lower the base percentage of culture converted, to make it harder to fully exert control over an area.

ALSO:
I plan to tweak the Cultural Decay function so that instead of decaying the culture by a set amount, it will decay the culture by 1/(total culture/100)
IE:
if a city has culture of 10; their city will lose 1/(10/100) or 1/.1 or 10 percent of their culture per turn, IE 1 point per turn at the beginning.
if a city has culture of 1000 their city will lose 1/(1000/100) or 1/10 or .1 percent of their culture per turn. This will make it vastly harder to occupy well develloped cities, however because of the IDW, you will be able to exert your influence on the terrain easily. This will simulate such things as 'the French Resistance' of world war 2. Germany had no problem controlling the land, but the cities were less than compliant.
(There might be a problem with this function. If the system only stores integers for culture, which I think the vanilla system does based on how the vanilla interface reports integers while the warlord's interface reports floats (numbers with decimal places after them for you non programmers), then I won't be able to do this, or any culture over 100 would become immune to the 'decay' feature. I'll need to look at it.)

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

by the way, the no mans land was in the trench warfare of WWI more than WWII...

A reason for the "overpowered" barbarians would be the cultural borders of a city. By giving it a x shape initially instead of a square shape, some cities which were meant to posess the extra tiles do not. Most of the times, it doesn't really matter. But some cities do not have production without those extra tyles as they were meant to use them. Consequently, they have no culture especially in the early game where there is little religion and cannot develop. All of this makes it easier to conquer those civs.
Could I suggest a modification of the enhenced culture mod to make new cities start with the square shaped borders instead of the x and then the borders expend accordingly to the mod? Or did I draw the wrong conclusion?

I agree with captain beaver!

I think that the cultural border thing is fine, except it takes a pretty long time for your average developing city to hit 500 culture, let alone 2000. I think that said values could do with a bit of tweeking, as opposed to 500 and 2000, how about 300 and 1000?

If I was doing it I would have the same amount of culture giving the same border, just with more stages along the way...

hmmmm, culture ey? I'll take a look at it.

Okay, culture should be revamped, and I think I have the way to do it. I'm going to shorten the first few stages, and lengthen the other stages, but not Legendary. I'll try and make it easy to get to the 9 box plot, but more difficult to get to the fat cross. That should be a good trade off in my oppinion. Overall culture progress to Legendary will not change, however. I'll post a 'mini patch' soon for testing. However I'm going to postpone the implementation of new parts until this is done.

Sounds good, Vishaing. I like to grow my colonial cities culture by great artists, and I want to know do your changes change things in way that you get more boxes with 2000 :culture: ?

I like it very much, almost in love.

The only thing I disagree is the Culture MOD. Why?
I accept and think its nice. But I think the way a City expand sux (THE WAY, THE POSITION OF BORDERS)
Starting with 4 titles, not the normal as 8 is terrible!

That's all. There's a way to change it just for me, and let all others thing of culture mod?

@Titan_br; I do sort of agree with you, however I do also sort of like the slow culture borders;

I'm going to try and change it to be somewhere in the middle;
I'm thinking I might try to make cities start with the normal 3x3 box of culture influence. The next level will not increase the border, then the culture will expand like it does now, slowly. When I get the next version working I will be sure to take some screenshots to show what I mean, because right now I think I'm probably doing a really bad job of it.

If I can I'm going to try and make an option in the ini file

(by the way, if you want to disable the slow borders, in the Cultural Influences Config.ini file, change ;

Enable Slow Culture Borders = true
to;
Enable Slow Culture Borders = false

and the borders will expand like vanilla civ, starting at 8 and then going to the fat cross.)

@Hitti-Litti; I have no clue. Sorry, I'll check it though and try to get back to you. I'm pretty sure that because culture expands more slowly, you get less. To counteract that however, I'm going to take a look at increasing the amount of culture such 'culture bombs' create. I'm thinking about making it 5000. Sound good? That should get you maybe one level beneath the fat cross.

Do you have a copy of Rhye's SDK files?

(by the way, if you want to disable the slow borders, in the Cultural Influences Config.ini file, change ;

Enable Slow Culture Borders = true
to;
Enable Slow Culture Borders = false

and the borders will expand like vanilla civ, starting at 8 and then going to the fat cross.)


I can't succeed in making it work.
I tried modifying the Cultural Influences Config.ini, and it didn't work; so I went to the CvCulturalInfluencesEventManager.py file and changed the g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders value too.

I tried these combinations:
.ini = false.py = true
.ini = false .py = false
.ini = true .py = false
not one worked.
Every time, I shut Civilization 4, cleared the cache, and started a new game.

Did anyone succeed in having regular 8-tiles borders when founding a city?

I can't succeed in making it work.
I tried modifying the Cultural Influences Config.ini, and it didn't work; so I went to the CvCulturalInfluencesEventManager.py file and changed the g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders value too.

I tried these combinations:
.ini = false.py = true
.ini = false .py = false
.ini = true .py = false
not one worked.
Every time, I shut Civilization 4, cleared the cache, and started a new game.

Did anyone succeed in having regular 8-tiles borders when founding a city?
I did. It seems the true/false thingy doesn't work at all. I have tried every combination possible and searched everywhere without making it work that way. So, I deleted the code line which starts the function instead.
Go in Sid Meier's Civilization 4\MODS\RFC++\Assets\Python\CulturalInfluencesUtils and open CvCultureInfluencesEventManager.py
You then have to go to the point where you see this :

def loadConfigurationData():
global g_bEnableBordersOverOcean
global g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders
global g_bEnableCultureOverTradeRoutes
global g_bTradeRouteCultureCityBased
global g_bHomeCityCultureChallengeAlienCulture
global g_iTradeRouteCultureAmount

config = CvConfigParser.CvConfigParser("Cultural Influences Config.ini")

if(config != None):
g_bEnableBordersOverOcean = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Borders Over Ocean", True)
g_bEnableCultureOverTradeRoutes = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Culture Over Trade Routes", True)
g_bTradeRouteCultureCityBased = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Trade Route Culture City Based", True)
g_bHomeCityCultureChallengeAlienCulture = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Home City Culture Challenge Alien Culture", True)
g_iTradeRouteCultureAmount = config.getint("Cultural Influences", "Trade Route Culture Amount", 1)

The underlined part is the code line which activates the different functions of the enhenced culture mod. I have already deleted the one that starts the slow culture mod, but it should look like this :
g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Slow Culture Borders", True)
Delete it and all should work fine :) .

g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Slow Culture Borders", True)
Delete it and all should work fine :) .

Not yet.
Actually, you also deleted the line that I coloured in red:

if(config != None):
g_bEnableBordersOverOcean = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Borders Over Ocean", True)
g_bEnableSlowCultureBorders = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Slow Culture Borders", True)
g_bEnableCultureOverTradeRoutes = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Enable Culture Over Trade Routes", True)
g_bTradeRouteCultureCityBased = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Trade Route Culture City Based", True)
g_bHomeCityCultureChallengeAlienCulture = config.getboolean("Cultural Influences", "Home City Culture Challenge Alien Culture", True)
g_iTradeRouteCultureAmount = config.getint("Cultural Influences", "Trade Route Culture Amount", 1)

gc.getGame().slowCultureBorders(g_bEnableSlowCultu reBorders)
gc.getGame().bordersOverOcean(g_bEnableBordersOver Ocean)

Now I can have normal, comfortable borders!
Thank you a lot!

any new version out sune that fixes the cultural boarder "problem"?

Yes! I'm actually in final testing mode right now, taking a break because my classes start in an hour and I have yet to eat breakfast. I believe the new culture model is a decent one, although not perfect. i had to reduce the number of expansions to make the city start with the 9 tile square but still expand slowly after that. Sometime soon I'm going to talk to TheLopez to find out just where the expansion is coded, and then I'm going to make a few changes and in all likelihood double the number of border expansions.

The Next build will include:
Mod Comps:
*Air Forces Mod by TheLopez
*Regiments Mod by seZereth
Tweaks:
*Culture shock disabled (hopefully just temporary until I find the actual function and learn how to tweak it)
*Innitial Culture influence increased (fledgling culture level made the starting level)
*Influence driven war weakened (hopefully now not all of the culture will convert, also, the Victor's culture gain is less than the Loser's culture lost, so after a large see-saw war it should result in a 'no-man's-land' with no culture influence at all. Trench Warfare here we Come!)

this is my civic screen with 6 columns, as requested

"Someon'es in the forum with a mo-od, someon'es in the forum with a mod mod mod mod, someone's in the forum with a mo-od, strumming the ol' banjo."

Yep, the next version is finally up. For those who were wanting tweaks to the culture system, that's what most of this version focussed on. I now have it set up so the culture begins with the 3X3 square, and then expands slowly ala the normal mod. Also, the culture gained from 'Culture Bombs' has been upped to 5000, thus allowing you to take a city from 0-Influential in one Great Artist. Furthermore the Culture shock feature has been disabled, as the Influence Driven war deals with it nicely. Furthermore the Influence Driven war has been SEVERELY weakened, hopefully now territory won't become completely the victor's after a single battle. Further tweaking may be necessary, and I am requesting feedback from all who play RFC++.

Also, I'm sorry the civic screen looks a little wierd right now, I just realized I packaged up the new civic screen (the one with space for 6 columns) with the mod. If anyone is truly distressed by this I can provide the original screen file to correct it.

@Rhye:
Thank you very much for the screen Rhye, I'll get the 6th column and general civic changes to you as soon as possible.

@ALL:
I'm now beginning a rather large project, namely, the "Vishaing's Civic Balancer and Expander" Project. It's like the Manhattan Project, except smaller not as well funded and unfortunately probably won't blow anything up during testing. Some time tommorow (thursday Novermber 23) I will post a new thread to consolidate and organize the discussion of civic balancers. I would use the threads already in place, however I would like to be able to update the first post with a synopsis of the current intend changes.

Also, the small two post discussion between me and Rhye was about the 6th civic column, which unless Rhye tells me otherwise, I am now assuming is my responsibility. Hopefully this will let Rhye do other more important stuff.

(Also hopefully this update won't take me the three weeks the other one took...)

great. DL 0.30 now and aiming for first test play today.

Loading the mod but the map doesnt show on the load screen.

?
Map doesn't show on the load screen how? Do you mean there is no scenario in the 'Play a Scenario' menu? or something else?

yes, no scen option when loading the RFC++ mod

Can I get a link to the mod?

(noob alert)

Can I get a link to the mod?

(noob alert)

First post of this tread. Klick the "SHAZAM!" link.

didn't see any SHAZAM link on Vishaing's OP... But searched site for Shazam and bingo! Thanks

(edit: ZOMG double noob alert... I went to top of page and thought that was OP... my bad...)

@Drogear: Very very strange. Check your RFC++ file structure, just inside the folder RFC++ there should be a folder marked PrivateMaps. Inside that folder should be the scenario, marked Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, make sure that's there.

Another possiblity: when you first extract the RFC.zip file you should end up with a folder called RFC. This is NOT the folder you put into the "Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Mods" folder. Inside the folder marked RFC there should be a folder marked RFC++, put that folder into the Mods Folder.

If that isn't the problem then the download was likely corrupted, try redownloading and reinstalling it.

@Drogear: Very very strange. Check your RFC++ file structure, just inside the folder RFC++ there should be a folder marked PrivateMaps. Inside that folder should be the scenario, marked Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, make sure that's there.

Another possiblity: when you first extract the RFC.zip file you should end up with a folder called RFC. This is NOT the folder you put into the "Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Mods" folder. Inside the folder marked RFC there should be a folder marked RFC++, put that folder into the Mods Folder.

If that isn't the problem then the download was likely corrupted, try redownloading and reinstalling it.

I moved the scen to the map file, that might be the problem. Thanks.

In the past I always moved the map/scen files in the DL folder to the civ4 map dir.

Yep that would be your problem. This mod is set up to not accept scenarios other than Private Maps.

"


@ALL:
I'm now beginning a rather large project, namely, the "Vishaing's Civic Balancer and Expander" Project. It's like the Manhattan Project, except smaller not as well funded and unfortunately probably won't blow anything up during testing. Some time tommorow (thursday Novermber 23) I will post a new thread to consolidate and organize the discussion of civic balancers. I would use the threads already in place, however I would like to be able to update the first post with a synopsis of the current intend changes.

Also, the small two post discussion between me and Rhye was about the 6th civic column, which unless Rhye tells me otherwise, I am now assuming is my responsibility. Hopefully this will let Rhye do other more important stuff.

(Also hopefully this update won't take me the three weeks the other one took...)

Have you started with your civic ballancer?

Yes actually, all I need to do is balance 2 more civics and I should be ready to post the ideas to the forum for critiques. Unfortunately a few things have happened that could possibly change my entire life's plan for the next 20 years, hopefully for the better. What that means to you is this; the time i normally spent working on RFC++ I now spend taking evening strolls to try and make sure I trully want to go through with these changes.

But enough about my troubles, here's a question for the members.

Would you prefer I start a new thread to discuss these changes in in one place, or just open the discussion in this thread?

why not here :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192531

The discussion started here allready

The real reason I wanted to start a new thread was so I could put the current version of the civics and their changes big in the first post, and have control to change it as the civics were updated. I think I'm going to post a new thread and do what Blasphemous did with the UHV thread and just link to all of the other threads.

Unfortunately I have no time to work on it today, I have a massive assignment worth 17% of my grade due tomorrow and Finals are coming up so I might not have much time at all for the next 3 weeks. Hopefully I will be able to post them after I've gotten some work done so people can at least start discussion.

Also, I noticed that 150 was released for the Vanilla RFC, if Rhye hadn't been going like gangbusters and included such a massive list of changes and fixes, I wouldn't be so stressed about it. But that list is massive, so I'll send out a PM to Rhye for the new dll, and get to work converting it, which because of the veritable God Send that is the program Beyond Compare (everyone should buy it, they need to make more money)/endshamelessadvertising, shouldn't take much time. I'm aiming to release RFC v.1.50 - 0.30 by Friday, and then start on the civics in earnest.

i told you that. "long live Beyond Compare programmers!" ;)

It took me entirely too long to do this. Not because of difficulty or anything, but because of laziness and business. It only took me a half hour to merge the code AND compile it. I appologize for taking so long to everyone who wants to play this.

BUT!

Now, we can begin the civics expander and balancer project.

What I would like to see is in the first post, in the first spoiler of the first post no less. Also contained there are links to some of the civic discussion threads.

Well, begin Discussion!

How would you merge something like the Plot List Enhanced mod? I've never understood why RFC is the only major mod that doesn't include it =/

I mean, how could anyone hate having bunches of different ways to organize their troopers?

I had planned on merging the PLE as a seperate download. It was in very briefly, but most people seemed to think it cluttered up the interface needlessly, so Rhye removed it. Tommorow or possibly tonight I will take a look at merging it and providing a seperate version.

Personally I agree with you, I just haven't gotten around to it because i wanted to merge the mods I felt people were in a consensus about before starting on the more controversial mods.

Needlessly?!

Dirty peacenik pinko commie bastards!*

*said the card carrying socialist party vegetarian

No lefty vegetarian would ever misplace the h in Gandhzilla!

as much fun as vegetarianism is, does anyone have any comments on the civics I've proposed? Also notice that there are a few civics who I do not have ideas for benefits for, so I need input for those.

No lefty vegetarian would ever misplace the h in Gandhzilla!

SOMEONE FINALLY NOTICED!

:band:

I've been waiting for forever to change that title XD

I'll ninja edit my thoughts on the civics, I really will.

My primary suggestion is that you work on making it so that later civics do not make earlier ones absolutely worthless.

Also, I'm not sure how you have them organized. It should be by tech that makes them available (earliest to latest).

HOWEVER, I also think it would be really cool if civics could go obsolete.

Thingies:

Absolute Democracy should be Democracy. I realize that humans are stupid and will misinterpret, but you can just tell them to look at a dictionary. Democracy is the better term.

Oligarchy is weak as nuts. Bureaucracy sucks ass, and this is even worse. Especially considering how powerful some of the other ones are, it seems like a bad idea to punish the crap outta this one.

Monarchy benefit should go to Professional Labor. Cottage spammers shouldn't get their holy grail that early. Replace it with a +3exp bonus and +20% ww (because war spammers should have to deal with ww too)

Single and Multiparty seem unfocused. Also, gold hurry should not go to a government type. Give it to a few of the more advanced economic groups. Plus, I have no clue what the beakers to gold would do. Would that rape academies or make them super awesome?

Why does caste system give happies? I'd suggest unhappies in the big cities and +2 free specialists

Camaraderie +50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities. Nobody wants to see their comrades die in battle, love thy neighbor, and cooperation results in better science

Liberalism needs a second look, but I've got no real thoughts

Change guilds to Unionized Labor and make it come somewhat later, like around industrialism, when the cities are getting REALLY big. +2 hammers all specialists, +25%gpp, -20% science

Socialism: +3health +3happy all cities, +100% ww +20% maintenance (good health plans, good retirement plans, expensive as hell. Ask any Scandinavian how they feel about socialism)

Professional Workforce: -20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce (post industrial workforce transition from production to service with a move to the "burbs")

Barter Economy: no trade routes (I realize trade occurred earlier than mercantilism, but I see no reason to provide people with a powerful resource like that until later in the game)

Trade Fairs (late classical/early medieval, low upkeep), +25% commerce all cities, no trade routes

Mercantilism: +50% distance maint (all those customs officials cost a buttload), no foreign trade, +100% domestic trade, +1 free merchant all cities over size 5

Free Trade: add in -50% distance maintenance (waaaay less to supervise), keep the rest the same

I'll look at the rest some other time, figure this is enough to chew on for now XD

hmmm, let's see;

Oligarchy:
Perhaps up it a lot, I'm honestly thinking perhaps upping it to +100% for both. THAT would turn any capitol into a mega city worthy of great works of art. It should help Rome out in the beginning as I think they should have the tech to start with this one at spawn.

Monarchy:
I'm thinking about giving Monarchy back its happiness with troops bonus, but I want it to get something else too, can't think of what. the +50% war weariness would be a good limitation to it, although counterproductive to the +happiness as in a war your units won't be in your cities as much. Then again, perhaps that is a good dynamic...

Singleparty:
I tried to represent most modern fascist dictatorships with this, and these were the traits that came to mind. I figured if 1984 was the ultimate expression take a look at its qualities, and it had an increase in millitary production, forced happiness through removal of dissenters, and hatred of the enemy to reduce war weariness.

Multiparty:
the hurry with gold is removed, I haven't added it to a specific civic yet, but it will probably go to free market. Also, the beakers to gold won't do anything to academies. What it will do is make specialists produce gold instead of beakers. This gold is put into the city commerce pool and can then be converted to beakers by the tax slider. It shouldn't hurt academies at all though.

Caste System:
2 free specialists for unhappiness in big cities... I had given it the +happy for big cities to represent that all of the wealthy elite (those who benefit from the caste system and are thus happy) live in the big cities. Perhaps Liberalism's current happiness in big unhappiness in everything else would be done better justice here?

Camaraderie
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities sounds pretty good.

Liberalism:
I want to keep the culture boost to help new civs (like America) catch up to the old civs culturally and have any chance of going Culture victory. I don't think it needs the +10% commerce, but I like the relationship between the unhappy poor people and the happy big city people.

Guilds:
I wanted guilds to represent the actual guild labor structure of pre Black Plague Europe. But realize now that its available at pretty buch the exact same time as Feudalism. So maybe moving it back would be a good idea. I think I'm going to wait for a second oppinion (need to get SadoMacho back into this discussion.)

Socialism:
I like your ideas, far less generic.

Professional Workforce:
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce sounds perfect, and simulates the change in the world economic structure from a production based economy to a financial based economy just as you said. Well done.

Barter Economy:
No trade routes total is an idea, But I think the no foreign trade would be better because without any trade the economy would be horribly crippled.

Trade Fairs:
Replaces closed economy I take it? And by no trade routes do you mean NONE at all? I'm not sure if that's possible. If you mean no foreign trade than I don't know, that's been given to pretty much ever economic civic save the last three.

Mercantilism / Free Market:
I think we disagree what distance maintanence is caused by. Personally I see the Mercantile system as being what fosterred colonial development. But I could be wrong, I have never really studied this era very well, especially not the economic structure. I'm worried that the combination of no foreign trade and +distance maint will kill most economies, not sure however. please give some reasons for the changes.

Towards your first few comments;

1: I feel that some civic styles simply are not suitable for the modern world, such as slavery, not really very compatible with contemporary society

2: No real organization yet, just them there. In the final version I actually code I will definately put them in order from first discovered to last discovered.

3: So do I. It would be very cool if instead of just changing from Slavery to Serfdom, the Slavery civic merely 'upgraded' to Serfdom, but I don't think I have the ability to code that.

I'm sorry I haven't repied earlier, but I've been ill.

I have taken a look but I still need to think a lot of things over, but it look quit nice.

some idea :


1) Multiple party system : Should give a penalty for civs without. Now the 1party system is to strong. In the longer run, people want representation ("We demand representation). Perhaps change it's name to representation if you aren't adding 2part system. Matbe add something bad to 1part system to?

2) I'm having some promblems with guilds. This looks like the Hanzen cities of Medieavl Europe. If that's it, then it looks nice.

3)Socialism: -50% :gp: ? socialism gives all people the same starting chances to get an education. Equal chances to all people, rich or poor. Combing this with 1 party system and state propery and you get the soviet model. Combing this with free market and Multiple party system, and you get the scandinavian model. Change this please. It should be in the social civic to, not in the labor civic.

4)Professional Labor : why -20% production? A paid happy, educated laboror works better and more productive.

5)Closed Economy : this should be the system of villa's in roman times and the fiefdoms of Europe of the times of the viking invasions or the japanese lands with samurai lords and the serves. I gave +1 hammer to farms to symbolise the farms were independent, and had there one blacksmiths,ans so on, but you used that some where else.

6)Atheïsm : GESTAPO = GEheimes STaats POlizei = Secrect State Police, Maybe remaning it to Secret Police, but i wouldn't add this. You can never remove religion.
Many people didn't like this civic when I brought this up. Please speak up now, so we can talk about this.

7)Free religion : If you don't like church, you can go watch sports in the modern day amphitheatre (i realy wouyld like to see this renamed to stadium, that's both Roman, and modern.), so Amphitheatre +1 :) for football, or basketball, or baseball, a symbol for sports.

8)Colonialism : like this very much, nice job!!!

9)Mercantilism : unlimiteed merchants


these are me first ideas, going to look on some details, but you did a nice job.

hmmm, let's see;

Towards your first few comments;

1: I feel that some civic styles simply are not suitable for the modern world, such as slavery, not really very compatible with contemporary society

3: So do I. It would be very cool if instead of just changing from Slavery to Serfdom, the Slavery civic merely 'upgraded' to Serfdom, but I don't think I have the ability to code that.

1) that's what i liked to seen too, civ's bwith old obseleted civic should fall behide and be destroyed, addapt or die out, to quote Darwin

3) that's what i like to see to, civics that changes with the tech tree
Example :
Representation (=multiple party system) : let it come with code of law
The romans had a senat, that was repesentation
then came Constitution, an improvment for the repres.
Then, democraty, even better...

i like aeon's idea on socialism

Some questions:

What exactly do you mean by Oligarchy? While the literal meaning of the term means "rule by the few" (which few?) the Ancient Greeks used the term to denote "rule by the rich", as opposed to the well born. In which case Oligrachy presupposes hereditary rule.

If by the few you mean any "few" then the civic would be a bit vague since it can refer to any kind of ruling class, many of which are very distinct from one another.

Why does cast system provide happieness? Is is because are happy when they have well defined roles to play in the world?

Why does comradship produce science? Perhaps it should reduce corruption or war wearieness?

I'm just going to make a few very subjective comments on flavour (as opposed to gameplay) issues:

Oligarchy: What does this represent exactly? Systems where there was representation but not universal suffrage? If so I'd prefer the term Representation or Elitist Democracy because I think it better expresses the relative progressiveness of such a system. All governments are oligarchies to some extent so I find the term rather vague.

Democracy: If oligarchy is limited democracy, what is Democracy? Universal Suffrage? Bear in mind that almost no country had universal suffrage until the 20th Century (I can only think of New Zealand). I'd prefer a term to distinguish it from Oligarchy, such as Universal Suffrage or Mass Democracy (a bit vaguer and broader than Universal Suffrage).

Single Party System: Please can't we just call this Dictatorship or Totalitarianism. I think these terms are just so much more evocative than "Single Party System"

Multiparty System: What is the conceptual difference between this and Democracy?

Camaraderie: What does this mean? It's sound more like a utopian ideal than anything that has existed.

Liberalism: Again, what does this mean? Liberalism has been used in a social context to mean all kinds of things.

Professional Labor: Again, please could you clarify what this means?

Atheism: Hurrah! At last something to represent Communist states that suppress all religions.

Unionization: This term almost always refers trade unions, so I think it's confusing in this context. How about Empire or Unity or Distant Lands?

Commonwealth: What does this represent exactly? An association of sovereign states along the lines of the Commonwealth of Nations or the the Commonwealth of Indepedent States? If so, how does it differ from Sovereign Nations?

What's the conceptual difference between Imperialism and Colonialism?



*************
Okay, a bit on gamplay...

Organized Religion: Personally I've never seen a reason why missionaries should effectively become obsolete in the modern era unless you have Organised Religion. There are plenty of missionaries going about their business to this day. I also don't like the way that Organised Religion's missionary-building ability means that Organised Religion discourages the building of monasteries and is the best civic for spreading ALL religions (not just State Religion). That just doesn't suit the flavour of Organised Religion. I propose making it so that monasteries never go obsolete (and, if possible, reducing their culture/science bonuses to compensate) and dumping Organised Religion's build missionary ability.

City States (and other completely disunited systems): Shouldn't there be some kind of nod to the fact that a disunited system is actually a very bad way to run an empire because everyone is doing their own thing? I mean you could make a good case for maintenance costs going up because there is no central way of controlling things, more economic tariffs and restrictions etc. At the very least there should be more war unhappiness because of the difficulty of uniting a bunch of city states. Historically, city states (of Italy and Greece for example) were frequently at war with each other. Same goes for Sovereign Nations and, possibly, Commonwealth.

On the comments about slavery not being compatible with modern society I completely disagree. Slavery is ideologically incompatible with modernity but, economically, it is in no way a defunct system that has been 'upgraded'. Slavery has (nearly) disappeared because it was deliberately suppressed and because a universal consensus that it is wrong has developed. Slavery never showed any signs of fading away for economic reasons - it was very much a political and moral struggle which abolished it.

OK, after a small dialog with myself (yes, I know I'm crazy) I have made some changes to your civic system. They were clearly based on my ideas, and you made some changes to it, but now I changes some things back and made some things different from my original ideas:

I marked the changes ones with ***, some changes are minor, some major


Government

Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital

Democracy: (tech: writing, Upkeep: High)
+2 , +10% hammers and commerce in all cities. +50% number of cities maintenance

*** Monarchy: (tech: divine right upkeep: low)
+1 happiness per military unit in a city

***Single Party System: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)
+ 2 unhappy from opression??????

***Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it)
"We demand representation for civ's without" (-> like emancipation in old civic system)
draft 2 times/turn
+1 health with ecology (green party)

Social

***Tribalism (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+1 free specialist, +3 happiness in 5 largest cities.

***bureaucracy : (tech writing, upkeep high)
+1 culture from courthouse, +1 :) from granary, +1:) from palace
upgrade with civil service (doen't no what yet)
this system is for China and Inca (Inca had granaries where everybody could seen them, to show that the state could provide for them)

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

***Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
+100% :gp: , +3 :), + 1 health, +10% science, +20 % War Weariness
(stress on education and equal starting chances in live)

***Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 in 5 largest cities. 1 free mechant + 50% culture
(stress on trading, people with courage to start a buisness and work hard will make it)

Labor

***State of nature : (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

***Slavery: (tech: Bronze Working, upkeep: Low)
+2 hammers per mine/quarry/town, May use population to rush production, +1 food from plantations

***Serfdom: (tech: Feudalism, Upkeep: Low)
+50% worker speed, +1 food from pastures (they were used common in serfdom systems)

Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile
(Hanze, Venice, Genua,...)

***industrial revolution (tech : steam power, upkeep low)
+1 unhappy/unhealth in all cities, +1 hammer on workshop, lumbermill, watermill, windmill)

***Professional Labor: (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
+20% hammers, +1 :) from courthouse (they protect the working class)
engineers : +1 hammer/gold
+2 XP (armies are professional too, you know)
rush with gold

Economy

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

***Closed Economy: (tech: metal casting, upkeep: Low)
+1 hammer on farms

***Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade. unlimited merchants

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Medium)
+2 trade routes , +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

***State Property: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill
+1 unhealth

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 :) with forest, +2 :health: per city.


Religion

Paganism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No State Religion, +1 happiness in cities without a state religion, +1 culture per obelisk

Organized Religion: (tech: Monotheism, upkeep: Low)
Can Build Missionaries without a Monastery, +25% in cities with state religion.

Theocracy: (tech: Theology, upkeep: High)
No Non State Religion Spread, can construct inquisitors, + 2 happiness from State Religion. +1 from non state religion.

***Pacifism: (tech: Philosophy, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture growth in cities with state religion, +1 commerce support per military unit.

***Atheism: (tech: Scientific Method, upkeep high) (it's gonna cost ye)
No State Religion, +20% science in all cities, +1 unhappy from non state religion, can build Gestapo (an inquisitor like unit I’m going to create.)

***Free Religion: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 from Non State Religion, no State Religion. +10% science in all cities.
+1 :) from amphitheatre

Unionization

Disunity: (Starting Civic, Upkeep: None)
No effects

City States: (tech: writing, Upkeep: Low)
-50% distance maintenance, -50% number of cities maintenance, -40% in all cities save the capitol. +2 free units per city (This should let Greece conquer a massive Empire really quickly)

Commonwealth: (tech: Compass, Upkeep
+100% domestic trade profit, +1 trade routes per coastal cities.

Imperialism: (tech: Iron Working, Upkeep: Medium)
+50% military unit production, +1 culture / commerce per 10% foreign culture in a city.

Colonialism: (tech: Astronomy, Upkeep: Medium)
(desired effect): -50% distance maintenance for any city beneath size 4 that has a luxury resource within its city radius. +1 trade routes in these cities.

Sovereign Nations: (tech: Mass Media, Upkeep: Low)
Increases Diplomatic Relations. (If the enhanced conquest options are implemented) Can only Temporarily Occupy a city


I liked the last category very much, I didn't change a thing.

Democraty and Oligarchy, it needs some working on, but i haved got any ideas at the moment.

On Government :

1)Despotism

2)Hereditary Rule + 1 :) for every unit in city
tech : monarchy; upkeep : low
Don't take away Egypte's UP
This is the old monarchy, like the Pharaoh, and the kings of Europe,...

3)Oligarchy +1 :) , +1 :) from walls, +10% gold in all cities, +25% hammer in capiatl
tech : writting upkeep : low
Athens, Rome, Sparta,...
Early forms of representations in history, and later on in England, after Manga Carta, and after the French revolution in France

4) Absolute Monarchy : +100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 :culture: from palace, barracks +1XP extra
tech : divine right; upkeep middle
Louis XIV goverment, all nobles around him, in his capital, so he could rule absolute.

5)Totalitarianism = single party system, I like -ism, if you leave the i out, even more

6) Representation

I have officially become suicidal. I'm now looking through the SDK code for the techs to try and find a way to add a 'with technology bonus' tag to it. If I can do this, I can make civics that change with technology.
I figure if I can find the tag that enables adding bonuses to specific improvements I should be able to reverse engineer it for civics, just with a lot more options because there are also more yields.

Until I figure that out however I'm going to be only partly involved in the discussion, as I want to focus on finding and implementing this code. As such I'm going to generally leave SadoMacho in charge of the discussion, though I have a few points first;

For now however, these are the civics i am looking at;

(Some Notes) I want to keep Socialism in the labor option, as I feel it is more a form of labor than an ideology. That's what Camaraderie is supposed to be, plus I don't think 'Industrial Revolution' is a good term for a civic, and it seems very close to 'Professional Labor', which I'm going to change to 'Professional Workforce'. I'm unsure about the governmental reforms you've proposed, but I also like them, and I think they are more well thought out than mine, so I intend to use them until someone proposes something better.

On the socialism idea, I just had an idea i can't really describe, which has conflicted me on the issue, so I am not sure, please make your cases one way or another to help me out.

*** Denotes civics being actively discussed

Government:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

***Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital

***Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low)
+1 happiness per military unit in a city

Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle)
+100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 :culture: from palace, barracks give +1XP extra

***Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)

***Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without


Social:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Barbarism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

***Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+1 free specialist, +3 happiness in 5 largest cities.

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Camaraderie: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities

Nationhood: (tech: Nationalism, upkeep: High) (This civic in my eye represents all ideologies that put the state before individual ambitions)
May Draft 2 Units per turn, +2 happiness from barracks, Courthouse.

***Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 in 5 largest cities.


Labor::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Slavery: (tech: Bronze Working, upkeep: Low)
+2 hammers per mine/quarry/town, May use population to rush production

Serfdom: (tech: Feudalism, Upkeep: Low)
+50% worker speed, +1 hammers per farm

***Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile

***Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
-50% number of cities maintenance, +1 specialist per city, -50% :gp: growth

Professional Workforce: (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce


Economy::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

***Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
+1 hammer with farm

***Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

***Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Medium)
+2 , +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

State Property: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 with forest, +2 per city.


Religion:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Paganism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No State Religion, +1 happiness in cities without a state religion, +1 culture per obelisk

Organized Religion: (tech: Monotheism, upkeep: Low)
Can Build Missionaries without a Monastery, +25% in cities with state religion.

Theocracy: (tech: Theology, upkeep: High)
No Non State Religion Spread, can construct inquisitors, + 2 happiness from State Religion. +1 from non state religion.

Pacifism: (tech: Philosophy, upkeep: Low)
+100% growth in cities with state religion, +1 commerce support per military unit.

Atheism: (tech: Scientific Method, upkeep Medium)
No State Religion, +20% science in all cities, +1 from non state religion, can build Gestapo (an inquisitor like unit I’m going to create.)

Free Religion: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 from Non State Religion, no State Religion. +10% science in all cities. +1 happy with amphitheater


Unity:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Disunity: (Starting Civic, Upkeep: None)
No effects

City States: (tech: writing, Upkeep: Low)
-50% distance maintenance, -50% number of cities maintenance, -40% in all cities save the capitol. +2 free units per city (This should let Greece conquer a massive Empire really quickly)

Commonwealth: (tech: Compass, Upkeep
+100% domestic trade profit, +1 trade routes per coastal cities.

Imperialism: (tech: Iron Working, Upkeep: Medium)
+50% military unit production, +1 culture / commerce per 10% foreign culture in a city.

Colonialism: (tech: Astronomy, Upkeep: Medium)
(desired effect): -50% distance maintenance for any city beneath size 4 that has a luxury resource within its city radius. +1 trade routes in these cities.

Sovereign Nations: (tech: Mass Media, Upkeep: Low)
Increases Diplomatic Relations. (If the enhanced conquest options are implemented) Can only Temporarily Occupy a city


Now, some reasoning;

@MrThing:
The plus science in Camaraderies is meant to be a 'work together for a better tommorow' ideal, the plus happiness is meant to be the wealthy elite being happy, which is why I think it will get a +1 unhappy everywhere else to counterbalance this.

@lumpthing:
Liberalism is the idea of free rights for all, even when sometimes contrary to the wills of the state (freedom to gather and protest, stuff like that. Freedom to criticize the governemnt) and in general simply having rights that other civic types deny access to.
Professional Labor is the idea of the citizens choosing what they do, and turning that job into a career. In all of the other civics the choice largely does not exist, in Slavery its obvious, in Serfdom citizens are tied to the land as farmers and do other jobs when their lord requires it of them, Under Guilds their choices are largely dictated by caste and their master's approval (this is an apprenticeship system) and in Socialism their job is largely decided based on the needs of the Country. Perhaps never mind that last part, as I am unsure.

@SadoMacho:
Guilds is meant to be hte Hanzen cities of Europe, I think. I don't remember specific examples of the cities I am basing it off of.
the -20% production on professional labor is meant to symbolize the shift from production based economy to a finance based economy.
The closed economy giving +1 hammers with farms would be terribly useful for civs like Egypt, so that sounds good.
The Gestapo name was merely me thinking the word sounded cool. Secret Police sounds good to however, so I think I'll go with that. And I think it needs to be in because it is possible to remove religions. Its difficult, but possible. I'll have to look t the diplomacy penalties to make it so if you do this non atheist states will hate you.
+ happy with amphitheater sounds good.

@Many:
I gave Socialism a -50% gp growth because in my eyes it encourages mediocrity with welfare plans (this is also what people I have known who have lived in socialist countries have said. If I'm wrong please tell me why. THis also balances out with the +specialists. <- That is the poor being raised up, the -50% gp is the rich being pulled down.

Camaraderie is meant to be the ideal of working together, everyone egual, whereas the Socialism civic is meant to be the practical application of such an ideal to labor and the workforce. This is largely the difference between Communist and Marxist communities. A Marxist society would have Socialism and Camaraderie, whereas a Communist society would have Socialsim and Nationalism.

On the Unity Civics:
Commonwealth is meant to be the union of trading Empire, similar to what I have seen to be Classical Greece and Carthage, as well as others. The cities have individual control over much of the land, but are unified. Sovereign nations is the recognition not only of one's own countries as self governing units, but also foreign claims to self dominance.
The difference between Colonialism and Imperialism is conquer versus found, and also Far Flung versus Close knit. Imperialism creates Empires like the Roman Empire, whereas colonialism creates Empires like the British Empire. Rather, Imperialism focuses on conquering for land and integrating the conquests as part of the empire, Colonialism focuses on Conquering for resources to support a single, often times very small homeland's desires and needs.

i appologize for how convaluted this post is, I was writing pretty much every section individualy and at the same time.

I dunno about everyone else, but I'm having serious trouble keeping up with the discussion. Could we perhaps switch this to one set at a time?

Look at post #93 by Vishaing, in the spoiler you see his plans and ideas. That's the basis for the discission, please give your comments on these ideas.
Vishaing is trying to find out if he can code a more dynamic system wherein civics can change with techs.

...? How does that have any bearing on what I said? I asked that we switch to a more concise conversation, as the current one is spread to the winds with masses of ideas being flung around.

I'd like to focus on one set of civics, like Labor, and discuss them until they are settled, then move on to the next set.

Agreed with Aeon. Lets start with Government and just go down the line.

current proposal for government civics:

Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital

Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low)
+1 happiness per military unit in a city

Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle)
+100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 from palace, barracks give +1XP extra

Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)

Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without

Lets make each category balanced, and then balance the whole. That should reap the largest rewards and keep the discussion focused. (I too was getting a little Lost)

Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low)
+100% commerce and hammers in capital

Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle)
+100% Gold/hammers in Capital, +2 from palace, barracks give +1XP extra

question: so absolute monarchy only gets +100% gold not commerce? who would get that? ^^


Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle)
+20% mil. production, +2 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail, - 20% War Weariness with Broadcast Tower (also Propaganda)

why enhance broadcast towers twice with happiness? just giving them one bonus would be better i think


Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without

seems a little bit underpowered to me

Absolute Monarchy deserves 100% money, the ultimate ruler does what he/she wants!

100% commerce would be better (that's what I ment, BTW)

1 :) for broadcasttower would be better, we don't want people to be to happy with Totalitarianism

Representation underpowered? The Happiness Penalty for civs without makes it stronger, and commpaired with the current democraty, it is quite a strong civic, but if you would like to add something, we are open for ideas?

@Vishaing : I saw in the thread by Blasphemous that Rhye intends to give as stability factor to the civics for revolutions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=196032). Does this mean that Rhye does not intend to use a new civc system?

I personally intend to complete this civic system, and then based on whether or not the stability system is implemented (which it looks like it will be if BOTH Blasphemous and Rhye like it) then I say we begin thinking of stability factors. it would probably be a good idea to start thinking of them now though, that way when the stability system hits it will be a simple thing to just add the values.

With absolute monarchy, I meant commerce to, I jsut put gold, sorry for any confusion ;) .I'll just replace the ambiguous word Gold with a Gold coin! Yay for civ smilies.

Also, you are all right, there is entirely too much happiness in the Totalitarianism civcic. That will be toned down;

About representation, I agree it might be slightly underpowered, but I'm not sure what to give it to buff it up. Perhaps up the commerce per specialist to 2? Any ideas are always welcome.


current civics:

Despotism: (starting civic, upkeep: None, Stability: Yeah Right)
No Effects:

Oligarchy: (tech Priesthood: upkeep: low, Stability: +10/-80 "Stable")
+50% commerce and hammers in capital, +1 culture from Courthouse

Hereditary Rule: (tech: monarchy upkeep: low, Stability: +15/-50 "Very Stable")
+1 happiness per military unit in a city

Absolute Monarchy: (tech: Divine Right, Upkeep: middle, Stability: +25/-50 "Extremely Stable")
+100% :commerce:/hammers in Capital, +2 culture from palace, barracks give +1XP extra

Totalitarianism: (tech: nationalism upkeep: middle, Stability: +20/-10 "Extremely Stable")
+20% mil. production, +1 happiness from Broadcast Tower(propaganda), +1 happiness with jail.

Representation: (tech: Democracy upkeep : high, Stability: +5/-90 "Affords fragile stability)
+50% War Weariness, +1 commerce per specialist (From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it), Happiness Penalty for civs without, +1 health in all cities

Most of the stability ratings are Blasphemous's ideas for what are pretty much the civics vanilla counterparts.
Absolute Monarchy can start off very stable, but since all power rests with the monarch if things start going wrong the people only have one person to blame. Que crap hitting fan.

Representation : + 1 :health: for ecologist party (maybe adding this after tech ecology if this is possible)
doubble grow of cottages, hamlets,...

Abs. Monachy : should be +2 culture :culture: for palace, not :)

I'm still not happy with the effects of oligarchy, this should be the governement of the greek city states and the Roman republic.
What about : +50% commerce/hammers in capital, +1 :) from walls, +1 culture for courthouse.

I just edited my post at the top of this page to show new civic settings.

Sounds good for Representation, but I personally never have a shortage of health, so I think it might be a tad under powered. For now though it seems like a good idea with a good reason.

Absolute monarchy changed as suggested.

About Oligarchy, the +1 culture with courthouse makes sense, but I personally don't see how the +1 happiness from walls fits Specifically this government system. The happiness from the extra security of having a set of walls seems pretty universal to me until the late age. Perhaps as another small tweak Walls can give +1 happiness on their own and then go obsolete with rifling (not gunpowder because walls were still slightly useful when musketmen were the only gunpowder units)

I'm still looking into creating dynamic civics, but its taking a while. I have a feeling I'm just going to need to talk to TheLopez of Aussie_Lurker about it. However, My last final was today, so now I have a whole mess of free time. Though I can't look through the code for too long or the lines start blurring into Communist Propoganda.

Hey! Hater! Commies 4 life, yo!

(From Representation, beakers changed to gold however because ultimately whether or not the science gets done depends on whether or not the Government is willing to pay for it)

What does that mean? Science specialists produce gold instead of beakers? I am le lost.

Whatever that means, +50% ww is pretty harsh unless something superawesome comes with it.

Representation: 2x growth cottages, +50% ww, malus to civs without it, and +1 health seems fine. And whatever that other thing is XD

Oligarchy: +25% comm/hams in capital, +50% gpp capital, +1 culture courthouse.

That would fit both the Greeks and the Romans.

Absolute Monarchy: +50% culture all cities, +25% military production in capital

That fits Louis XIV pretty well, and even works with Frederick.

The specialists produce commerce instead of science because what happens to the commerce they produce depends entirely on the government. The commerce they produce should get put into the cities commerce pool, and then hit by the tax slider to see whether or not it gets turned into beakers or culture. This is my way of showing that in a representational democracy like America specialists produce more, but what they produce is decided by whoever wants to fund them, most often the government.

Even if it isn't put through the tax slider, the commerce will go directly to the treasury, thus allowing the government to set a higher science tax rate, and increase the science income.

The +50% gpp in capitol for oligarchy should be perfect.

As for Absolute Monarchy, I'm unsure about moving the culture to every city. Perhaps;
+25% culture in all cities, +2 culture from palace, and +25% millitary production in capitol?

That sounds pretty good, actually.

Look nice, I think the goverment civics are good now (unless some one wants to add something to representation).

Perhaps we could move on to the religious civic, that would be the easiest one to discuss, IMO?

All right, lets move on. I updated the first post's government civics.

Now, to religion:

Paganism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No State Religion, +1 happiness in cities without a state religion, +1 culture per obelisk

Organized Religion: (tech: Monotheism, upkeep: Low)
Can Build Missionaries without a Monastery, +25% :hammers: in cities with state religion.

Theocracy: (tech: Theology, upkeep: High)
No Non State Religion Spread, can construct inquisitors, + 2 happiness from State Religion. +1:( from non state religion.

Pacifism: (tech: Philosophy, upkeep: Low)
+100% :gp: growth in cities with state religion, +1 commerce support per military unit.

Atheism: (tech: Scientific Method, upkeep Medium)
No State Religion, +20% science in all cities, +1 :( from non state religion, can build Secret Police (an inquisitor like unit I’m going to create.)

Free Religion: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 :) from Non State Religion, no State Religion. +10% science in all cities.

I have no ideas for what stability ratings to give. I, being rather unreligions, am not well versed in the study of religion. However I feel that most religions civics should help stability as Religion is a very unifying force unless you're dealing with another religion.

don't like Pacifism. No :gp: bonus, +100% :culture: in cities with state religion would be better. All religions live next each other wothout violance, that's what I understand about Pacifism, and that would give a nice cultural boost, would it?

atheism : upkeep : high, in real life, this didn't happen much and not for a long time if it did, so if you want this, it's gonna cost ye! No spread of non state religion.

Free religion : +1 :) form amphitheatre, if you don't have to follow the state religion, you don't need to go to church, and you can watch sports in the stadium (modern amphitheatre), maybe this too for atheism.

Theocraty and org. religion : if possible, can't build the religious building of non state religions.

opg. religion : unlimited priests, upkeep : middle (priets cost money, temples too), inquisitors maybe? (the Spannish ones ;) )

theocracy : +2 XP (holy soldiers)

stability : very stable : org. religion, Pacifism, free religion
stable : paganism,
neutral : theocracy
very unstable : atheism

Some of your civics could do with some more downsides or perhaps fewer upsides.

Caste System should give -25% :gp: to name but one (bright people going to waste due to being born into a caste that can't make use of their abilities).

good point, but now the discussion is about religious civics at the moment. Later on, we'll discus the other civics. Your imput is welcome though, and if you have other ideas, please post them, good ideas are allways welcome.

don't like Pacifism. No bonus, +100% in cities with state religion would be better. All religions live next each other wothout violance, that's what I understand about Pacifism, and that would give a nice cultural boost, would it?

The First World War killed some of our greatest poets, remember. :p Granted that they probably wouldn't have become some of our greatest poets if they hadn't witnessed the war, but the great people bonus still makes sense (though to be fair, so does the culture bonus).

Pacifism should have a penalty (- 25-50%) to the birth of Great Generals.

how about :
Pacifism : +1 commerce per mil. unit, +75% :culture: , + 75% :gp: , +50% more great general point needed for birth.

More ideas, thought,...?

I'm not that familiar with the GP point system, but I didn't know you could specify amounts for individual types of GP. It would be a nice suggestion if you could though.

Great general point are not the same as other :gp: .
Points for great generals are gained by winning battles and can be followed in the adviseur screen.
Great people points are gained in cities by presence of specialists and wonders.

I don't know if it would be posible to do this, but it would be nice and it was a great idea.

It is possible - they have seperate birth modifiers.

This also mean that it would be possible for some other relevant civic to offer a boost to Great General birth.

It is possible - they have seperate birth modifiers.

This also mean that it would be possible for some other relevant civic to offer a boost to Great General birth.

That is a good question.

I would suggest that:
Hereditary Rule - Great Generals
Organized Religion and Theocrcy -Great Prophets
Absolute Monarchy - Great Engineers
Representation and Oligrachy - Great Merchants
Free Religion - Great Scientists

@MrThing:
I think you misunderstood me. There are only 2 seperate birth modifiers (without further SDK modification) - 1 for Great Generals and 1 for all other :gp:.

One problem with assigning great general bonuses or penalties is that will have no effect in the vanilla version, which is what I am creating this for first. So maybe having such modifiers as an added little bonus or penalty is good, but they should not be an integral part of the civic.

How about:

Vanilla:
Pacifism : +1 commerce per mil. unit, +50% , + 50%

Warlords:
Pacifism : +1 commerce per mil. unit, +75% , + 75% , +50% more great general point needed for birth.

+1 happy for amphitheatre added to free religion and to Atheism, added no non state religion spread to Atheism. (can't believe I forgot about that)

current version:

Paganism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No State Religion, +1 happiness in cities without a state religion, +1 culture per obelisk

Organized Religion: (tech: Monotheism, upkeep: Low)
Can Build Missionaries without a Monastery, +25% production in cities with state religion, unlimeted priests

Theocracy: (tech: Theology, upkeep: High)
No Non State Religion Spread, can construct inquisitors, + 2 happiness from State Religion. +1 from non state religion. +2 xp for soldiers.

Pacifism: (tech: Philosophy, upkeep: Low)
+100% growth in cities with state religion, +1 commerce support per military unit. (NOT UPDATED)

Atheism: (tech: Scientific Method, upkeep: High)
No State Religion, no non state religion spread, +30% science in all cities, +1 from non state religion, can build Secret Police (an inquisitor like unit I’m going to create.) +1 happy from amphitheatre

Free Religion: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+1 happy from Non State Religion, no State Religion. +10% science in all cities. +1 happy from ampitheatre

pacifism is OK for me (if the great generam thinhy is possible). I think relgious civic is handle, unless some one wants to add something else, on to the unity civic?

Is it possible that with org. religion we can only build missionaries of the state religion without the monstary, for other religions, you'll have to build the monsatery?

hmmmm, That should be as simple as adding an if statement to the 'missionaries without monastary' tag the civic has. I'll look into that to. Also, I'm putting the dynamic civics on hold for a little while because frankly I haven't had any luck finding what I need, and I figure a balanced civic system would be a better place to start than a whole new foundation for the civics system. Hopefully in the next couple of dayds I will PM TheLopez or Aussie_Lurker and try and get their oppinion on it, but I just moved back home for the holiday vacation thing, so I'm spending some time with my family and my posts have become sporadic at best.

However, I agree the religious civics seem pretty well done now, so I will update the first post.

Let's move on to Labor civics, which we might have to discuss alongside Social civics, as they are pretty related.

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Slavery: (tech: Bronze Working, upkeep: Low)
+2 hammers per mine/quarry/town, May use population to rush production

Serfdom: (tech: Feudalism, Upkeep: Low)
+50% worker speed, +1 hammers per farm

Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
-50% number of cities maintenance, +1 specialist per city, -50% great person growth

Professional Labor: (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce

Tribalism is more something for social civic, I would name it state of nature (Hobe named it like this).

Slavery : +1 food for planations, +1 :( , maybe 2, because slaves are unhappy, and 1 would give only 1 hammer

serfdom : away with the hammers for farms, +1 food from pastures (common use og grazinggrounds in ME europe), +1 :) from castle?

Guilds : OK

socialism : look at it social-iSM, this should be in the social colom. This is a system that wants to give people equal starting chances at the start of there lives be a strong governement, as opposed to liberalism that lets people work out there own lives, Laisez faire, Laizere passé. If you place socialism here, you have to put liberalism inhere to as they cannot be implemented at the same time. socialism is a social structure, not a way of labor organization.

Professional Labor : at first, I found this strange, but you seem to mean the 3rd sector (services and so) economy with this, so I like it.

To replace socialism, I would like to see 'Industrialism'. This is a civic ment for the industrial revolution so,

Industrialism : (tech : steam power, upkeep : medium)
+1 hammer for workshop, saw mill, +10% hammer, +1 unhealth, unlimited engineers

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: High)
-50% number of cities maintenance, +1 specialist per city, -50% great person growth

Aside from Socialism not strictly being labour as Sadomacho points out, why the great person penalty? This isn't the cultural revolution we're describing here.

Industrialism sounds nice though.

Industrialism : (tech : steam power, upkeep : medium)
+1 hammer for workshop, saw mill, +10% hammer, +1 unhealth, unlimited engineers

Way overpowered.

How about

Organized Labour:

+1 free engineer all cities, +10% production, +1 happy, +1healthy, -1g towns/villages, +10% city maintenance

And change Professional Labour to Service Sector.

Guilds: (tech: Guilds, upkeep Medium)
+2 hammers / commerce per specialist, -1 production per tile

This + Angkor wonder = +4 production priests. Maybe not a good idea? I'll leave it to others to suggest an alternative.

serfdom : away with the hammers for farms, +1 food from pastures (common use og grazinggrounds in ME europe), +1 from castle?

I prefer Vishaing's serfdom model. It gives you the ability to build up local infrastructure, which none of the other civics seem to do.

Slavery: +1g and +1food Plantations, +2 unhappy, +10% commerce, -25% city maintenance, pop rush.

Org. Labour : OK, but +1 :) isn't good. This is the industrial revolution, and labourers won't that well off in those day, only the church could keep them from not revolting and going communist.

Service Sector : nice name.

serfdom: we intend to get closed economy in the economy civics whitch would give +1 hammer on farms, as this represents the feudal fiefdom and the Roman villas system of small agreculture units with every thing on it to survive, so also a blacksmith on the farm.

guilds : so 1 civ would get a lot of production extra, I don't mind. I like the guilds idea very much. And I thing a lot of the wonders should get new effects anyway, especially Ankor Wat.
Other suggestions are welcome ofcourse, this has to be something like the Hanze, Venice, Genua,... a medievel trading empire, just before mercantilism and the start of colonialism.

slavery : why +10% commerce and -25% city maintenance? I would give the worker bonus here and not to serfdom, as you can whip slaves at work faster.

so, some new ideas :



slavery : (tech bronze working, upkeep : middle)
+1gold and +1 food on planations, +2 unhappy, pop. rush, +50% worker speed

serfdom (tech feudalism, upkeep : low)
+1 food from pastures, +1 happy from castle, +25% worker speed, I would add something to monastaries, as they were the centre of culture and science in those days, maybe +1 science/culture?

Guilds (tech guilds, upkeep : medium)
engineer +1hammer, merchant +1gold, scientist +1science, artist +2culture, (specialist are in guilds, so more productive)
Town, village +1gold (cities had to buy city rights from feudal lord, so extra gold from there)
+1 happy from walls (cities had to buy this right, and once in the city walls, serves were free)

Industrialism (or Org. Labor) (tech : steam power upkeep : low/medium?)
+1 free engineer all cities, +10% production, +1 unhealthy, -1g towns/villages, +10% city maintenance

Service Sector (tech: Assembly Line, upkeep: Medium)
-20% production, +2g towns/villages, +25% commerce

No more replies, so everybody agrees or I'am talking to myself.

on to social:

the current is :
Barbarism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+1 free specialist, +3 happiness in 5 largest cities.

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Camaraderie: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+50%ww, +3happies, +20% science in all cities

Nationhood: (tech: Nationalism, upkeep: High) (This civic in my eye represents all ideologies that put the state before individual ambitions)
May Draft 2 Units per turn, +2 happiness from barracks, Courthouse.

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 in 5 largest cities.


Socialism should be added, and I am not to fond on nationhood and Camaraderie.

Ideas? Pease don't let me talk to myself.

Sorry about the lack of talkativeness.

I like your Labor ideas,
Serfdom will have something giving a bonus to monastaries, probably +1 culture. As for guilds, I'm not sure if it is possible to give bonuses to specific specialists, it would be nice if it were. If it is or I can rig it up I plan to give them sepcific bonuses, however If I cannot I think we might need a medly, perhaps 1 hammer, but hammers are extremely valuable, so I think maybe +1 commerce and culture, which can make sense on its own as the guilds primarily existed as a way of ensuring higher pay for workers by gaining monopolies on certain services.
I think Industrialism is a better name, as Organized Labour seems far broader and includes many things that are represented by other civics. I agree about Service Sector however, that is a nice name.

on to social.

I want Nationhood in. Nationalism is partly what let the U.S. win in the World Wars, and a lack of Nationalism is what largely what lost us the Vietnam and Korean wars. It should be represented, in my oppinion, I am open to any suggestions however. (plus it is a civic I really like using :) )

However, I agree about camaraderie, I never really liked it, so I would replace Camaraderie with Socialism.
Any ideas for effects?

socialism (tech : communism, upkeep : high)
+20% science, +50% :gp: , +1 :), +1 health, +50% ww

it is a social system that allows people to get higher education, and gives the working class a nice live.

I would place 'nationhood' in the Unionization civic to replace 'Sovereign Nations'. Nationhood symbolises that the people of a civ have a feeling of being 1 nation.
Nationhood is to be combined with liberalism (as you tell youself, because the USA had it) but also with socialism (The USSR had it during the great Motherland War = WWII). Nationhood is what caused the WWs in the first place, as it lead to a vendeta between France and Germany. We could replace it with a social structure for civs like china with a bureaucratic social order.

I would olso rename barbarism to Tribalism, as the most primitive social structure was the tribe, that's why I wanted to change tribalism in the labor civic. Tribalism in labor could be state of nature.

Caste system : take away the happiness for large cities. -50% :gp: (great people born outside the correct caste of there speciality can't become great people), +2 free spec.

Liberalism : not sure on the +100% culture, +50% would be more than enough for the coca cola effect of the USA.

socialism (tech : communism, upkeep : high)
+20% science, +50% , +1 , +1 health, +50% ww

Seems a little overpowered to me. I'd remove the Great People bonus and see how things are with increased research and extra health + happiness.

Tribalism in labor could be state of nature.

For the name I'd suggest 'Sustenance' over 'State of Nature'. Either make sense as communities that have to focus everything on survival rarely have the time and resources to achieve anything spectacular, but Sustenance is probably more familiar as a general term.

Caste system : take away the happiness for large cities. -50% (great people born outside the correct caste of there speciality can't become great people), +2 free spec.

This sounds very good.

Seems a little overpowered to me. I'd remove the Great People bonus and see how things are with increased research and extra health + happiness.

or perhaps add -x% :gold:

Names of starting civics have been changed.

So, we currently have:

Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+2 free specialist, -50% great person births

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+20% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww
(I agree about removing the +gp to balance it)

UNKNOWN

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 happy in 5 largest cities.

unknown :

We could use bureaucracy, in china this was the basis for social structure. I think confusianism had something to do with this, but I don't know who.
The Roman Empire had a bureaucratic system when it's tribal system moved to the background. Bureaucracy is a system wherein civil servants have great power according to there ranks. In Rome, you had the consuls, the procinsuls, the tribunes,...

Bureaucracy (tech : code of law, upkeep middle)
courthouse : +1 happiness / culture
granary +1 happiness (state keeps grain to support people, this was also an Inca way, place the granary were people can see it and where its save, they will be happier)
academy +1 happiness (people get an education here)
maybe +5% gold for markets and grocer as more civil servants, means more tax collection (less black market)????

on socialism :
this is an high upkeep civic, that's why I would like to see the +50% :gp: as it will be hard to maintane. But if it is really overpowered we could remove it. Or maybe just +25%?
Also, if liberalism is getting the +100% culture, socialism should get something to compete, socialism is not only the soviet model (that's socialism with state property), it is also very common in europe (socialism and free market).

Beaurocracy sounds like a good addition. PLus it was in the vanilla civics (albeit in a different category) so it is good to put it somewhere.

About Socialism, I'm not sure about other models, I know little about socialism and its affects, however my Roommate is Canadian, and most of his hatred of socialism is from it discouraging greatness by vastly raising the taxes on the successful people, to pay for and support the unsuccessful people. Again, this might only be the Canadian model. However, (going to Wikipedia despite Aeon's hatred of it) Socialism is described as a system where the economy is tailored to support the working class majority, and it does this by stripping power from the wealthy minority, which in civ terms would be the great people.
Hence why I don't want to give them a +gp bonus, I would prefer to up the happiness/health bonus first.

Also, currently Caste System and Beaurocracy have the same prerequisite tech, we should fix that.

so currently:
Tribalism: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Caste System: (tech: Code of Laws, Upkeep: Low)
+2 free specialist, -50% great person births

Vassalage: (tech: Feudalism, upkeep; High)
New Units receive +2 Experience Points. +5 free units per city. – 20% building production in all non capitol cities (ie. The effects will say “-20% production in all cities, +20% production in capitol.”)

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+20% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww

Bureaucracy (tech : Code of Laws, upkeep Medium)
+1 happiness / culture with courthouse, +1 happiness with Granary, +1 happiness with Academy (that's a lot of happiness, will really help in the early game period, but I feel there should be another bonus and some penalty. I think the +5% commerce with grocer and market might be a good bonus, but I can't think of a good malus.

Liberalism: (tech: Liberalism, upkeep: Low)
+100% culture in all cities, +1 unhappy (poor people), +10% commerce, +2 happy in 5 largest cities.

do not agree with socialism without :gp: bonus, because great people are not the rich, but those who exel in there field of expertise. Merchants are maybe the exception with socialism.

But I'm willing to let it go. (I am a socialist, so I would like it to be a very good civic ;) )

As you want to keep the upkeep medium, I wouldn't change to much to it, socialism in the USSR wasn't all that great, as long as socialic states with free market can compete with Liberal states.

Bureaucracy : tech : writting??? I want it in the early games, not with civil service like now, as China and Rome had a large bureaucracy, and Egypt to was known for there scribes that counted the field to collect taxes (they even had a god for that Thot). I don't like the current effects of the civic now, it was just some ideas a typed down quickly. But governementbuilding, like courthouse and granary should be affected.
A malus could be the upkeep, as a lot of bureaucrates cost a lot of money, maybe even high upkeep? Take away the happines from courthouse, and give it a +5% commerce bonus (not for market and grocer). Maybe some one has a good idea???

And what's up with the +100% culture for liberalism? I don't get this. The state with liberalism doesn't support art, a state doesn't care much about that with liberalism. Socialism (communist) on the other hand usses art (socalled 'social realism') and sport as propaganda "to show the glory of the worker paradise" as Stalin would say. Just give it +50% and I can live with it. There upkeep is low, so they can spend money to culture if they want to, because they have the freedom to do so, if they like it.

Socialist Realism isn't a factor of socialism, per se, it's a product of what was termed Marxist-Leninism (which had debatably little to do with the good or bad points of either's political ideology but was partially related to their analytically approaches at any rate) in the old Warsaw Bloc during Stalin's days and then only really survived in East Germany (where it was parodied to absurdity anyway ; e.g. Irmtraud Morgner). In the USSR at least, after Khrushchev's denouncement of Stalin, then the majority of the state-funded art (that is, all of it) while often patriotic etc. did not conform to Marxist philosophical viewpoints (determinism, dialectical approach etc.) simply because, I would argue, that there are more interesting ways of looking at the world.

The Soviet film adaptation of Solaris (and I suppose Lem's original novel) is one obvious example of this and, coincidentally, a film so tedious and overproduced that it also demonstrates how the Soviet system encouraged 'arty' and less populist films but those certainly didn't spread a huge amount of Soviet culture to the wider world. Worth noting that the novels and plays that came out of the Bloc and were picked up in the West are those like Solzhenitsyn and if anything those continued to damage Soviet culture (from cIV mechanics point of view) long after they were really relevant to how the Union operated.

Great people are certainly not the 'wealthy minority'. The wealthy minority in most established regimes, e.g. Russia in 1917, tends to be so inbred that their brains have been replaced by teeth. However communistic and socialist do tend to decrease individual creativity by their very nature but I would say make up for this by rather contrived pushes in specific fields, for example, Soviet and Eastern Bloc chess players. I'm not sure how you should model this but it certain shouldn't be an overall decrease in GP ; perhaps a weighting towards scientists and engineers rather than prophets and artists.

(P.S. 'True'* Socialism aims to equalise wealth not only because wealth distribution is unfair from the point of view that the most capable are not always the most rewarded (and they aren't) but also on the basis that unequal wealth distribution fundamentally has no moral value. There are obvious practical problems which aren't worth discussing.)

*Yeah, nasty word, sorry.

You look at socialism as the soviet model most of the time, as do many people. You must olso take in regarde the social democratic states of North and West Europe, where the arts get more financial support from goverment than in traditional Liberal Capitalist states. I repeat, I can live with +50% culture, not with the overwelming 100%, as the only way the culture of the USA is spread over the world is because there the only superpower of the age, much like Rome was. Maybe we could give the same +100% to the Roman political system? That would be silly too, they got so much culture from buildings.


On :gp: : You have the brain drain from West Europe to USA, taking away all high educated people with a lot of talent to the USA (ex. Hawking, he's british, and after an education and prove of his talent, came to America, Einstein,...)
Also, if we look at the soviet space program. This was a based on the talent of a farmer's son who would have been a farmer (and not a rocketscientist) if there was no socialism in Russia. He would be a :gp: . Russia had almost no german WWII technology and non of the german scientist.
The American space program was a joke, even though they had a lot of Germany techoogy, and only when Von Brauns talent was used, the Space program got somewhere, and Von Braun got somewhere thanks to 'National Zocialismus' (=NAZI) or national socialism (not that I approve of this ideology and that socialism was mainly socialism in name, but the educationsystem was socialist).
Also the soviets developed the basis for nuclear fussion (tokamak reactor), and may more high tech ideas. Bad leadership and no money because of that leadership is what holds Russia down, and that's why we don't type in Russian now.
What does America place to that, what :gp: did the USA produce?
Bill Gates a great merchant
PT Barnum a great merchant
are there more?? (great generals not included of course)

But I am willing to live with the removal of +50% :gp: , I just needed to say this, and by making bold statements, I try to get more people in the discussion on the civic, more people could result in great ideas and a fantastic civc system (at least I hope, and if Rhye is willing to use it? Rhye???)

You look at socialism as the soviet model most of the time, as do many people.
I was considering truly planned economies rather than the interventionist and high-tax/spend governments of Europe. I don't think that there's ever been a truly free-market country (with every European country and USA country that tried it for any length of time eventually undergoing an economic crash, usually due to overspeculation, and then reverting to interventionism). There's certainly the problem that all Civs in cIV are centrally planned from the start, us being the planners! So the economic civic always jars with me ; I thought that 'state property' was the right direction to go in as far as semantics are concerned in the game. ('Free market' should really force you to abandon the ability to choose between different city improvements if it meant what it said. Just as Representation and Universal Suffrage should make approval more important.)

I'd also say that Nazi Germany was socialist, in the sense of central planning, in that fascism isn't too far off socialism but perhaps approached from a different direction and with very different aims ; fascism being the absorption of the state by corporations (at least in the original Italian form) and socialism being the joining of industry with the government. Certainly very similar in execution. If anything the Nazi Revolution was more socialist than fascist in the manner it came to full power. Both fascism and socialism tend to involve themselves as fully as possible with the individual ; even the 'social democracies' of Scandinavia pushed eugenics for scarily long periods of time and forced sterilisation upon the mentally disabled (I'm thinking of Sweden in particular). I'd argue that such a state isn't a democracy, personally, in the modern sense of a system that obeys majority will while respecting the rights of every individual.

P.S. Hawking still lives in the UK and is a Prof. at Oxford. The accent isn't something he picked up by living in the states.

P.P.S. I think perhaps rather than economic civics per se, just 'property' should be considered. Keep 'state property' and replace 'free market' with something corporation related. (There's also a massive problem with separation of labour and economy in my mind.) The separation of 'environmentalism' and 'state property' also makes no sense ; the only way environmentalism can be brought about is either by massive intervention (socialism) or maybe (I don't believe so ; silly libertarians ;)) massive responsibility (e.g. long-term fishing/farming rights)

Its very hard to find some system which was truly libertarian. Was New Deal libertarian?

Socialism: +20% science - its joke, isnt it?

Its very hard to find some system which was truly libertarian. Was New Deal libertarian?
No, the New Deal was one of those attempts to clean up after experiments with a more free market had failed. It included heavy subsides for farming (including large force hiring progs.) and reopening of banks only under heavy observation from the state. Roosevelt and those actually involved with implementing the plan were accused of being communists.

However, he did avoid massive nationalisation (indicating more of a 'capitalism reform' approach rather than true central planning ; it was an emergency stopgap really). It's far from certain what the actual aims of FDR were but I think it's not utterly wrong, that at least under the first 'deal' (1933-1935) that the USA was in many ways a socialist country.

What does America place to that, what :gp: did the USA produce?
Bill Gates a great merchant
PT Barnum a great merchant
are there more?? (great generals not included of course)



I agree with most of what you said, until here. This is just a goofy claim, and I'm not going to waste our time with more of this hyperbolic silliness.

The +20% science is a good balance to the +100% culture. I'd personally opt for the science, as it is a huge advantage.


with every European country and USA country that tried it for any length of time eventually undergoing an economic crash, usually due to overspeculation, and then reverting to interventionism

The Great Depression (which is what I assume you are referring to) had more to do with failed implementation of monetary policy (severe reduction of M2, to be precise) by various nations than it did with command economies.

The collapse of the Soviets had more to do with glasnost and perestroika than any economic policy. Indeed, the shock policy of Yeltsin (pushed by that bastion of poor economic policy, the IMF) was a major part of the collapse of the post-Soviet Russian economy in the 90s (by almost all measures, it was worse than the Great Depression was), and redonculous energy profits are leading to a return of the Soviet model under Putin as a result of the seeming failure of capitalism to outdo the Soviet model in Russia.

If there is a civic which is intended to represent command economies, it should increase city maintenance greatly (100% would not be out of the question), but similarly boost production and science.

It seems time to start the economic civic discussion. Not?

Aeon, are you saying that you want to see a civic like state property (= planned economy as I like to rename it) with high city maintenance and a great boost on science and production?

Sorry it took me so long to post this, I had responded to SadoMacho before Zetetic Apparat busted onto the scene but the internet ate my post.

By the way Zetetic, thanks for joining the discussion, always nice to have more people for me to shoot ideas at.

Now, to sum up my post, most of what I was going to say about my views on Socialism was pretty well, if not better than, articulated my Mr. Apparat. So I'm moving on.

My judgements for civics were to lower the +culture to 50% and raise the +science to 25%. I think that should be a good balancer. Also, I feel that like Aeon said culture is far less important than science, so those two are pretty well balanced.

Now, on to economics;
(I have changed State Property to Planned Economy. It seems appropriate.)

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
Not sure about this one, Ideas?

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Medium)
+2 trade routes, +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

Planned Economy: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
-50% distance maintenance, no Foreign Trade.

There's still no incentive to adopt Mercantilism. Is it possible to increase the number of tiles a city can work through a civic?

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

It is ludicrous to categorise Environmentalism as some sort of rival system to the other economies. I'd suggest an alternative but most seem to be covered under these fairly broad terms.

Mercantilism : unlimited merchants or 1 free merchant in every city?

planned economy : +1 unhealty, maybe even +2, as the USSR and communist China aren't known for there ecologist aproche.
Maybe something with collective farms? +1 food when a farm allready has 5 food or so?
no +1 hammer on mines (I asked Rhye to give mines +1 hammer with steam power, and common mining wouldn't give more hammers)

clossed economy: +1 hammer on farms (domminion concept of the farm). This is the economy of feudal Europe (with sefdom and vassalage) and of the Roman empire (with slavery and olichargy/Hereditary Rule), the Domus I think it was called, a villa of some sort of lord, with farmland nearby and everything to sustain this small unit.

free market : low upkeep and +1 trade route?

Environmentalism : it is a rival system to the other economies, this is the system of the green parties in Europe. But is hasn't been acomplished in real live, so this is a future way of economy, so I would like to see this replaced too. (I don't expect some state one day will have a Environmentalist economy, so to hell with it.)

How about war economy:
During the world wars the economy was radicaly changed, so an economy could support long wars in the modern time.

War Economy (tech assembly lines upkeep high)
+50% mil. production (or maybe food to produce mil. units? no growt in population to simulate the "lost generation" of a long time war), -50% WW,
+2XP, -1 trade route (convoy and submarine war from WWI and II)
+2 happiness from barracks and draft (you'll like this one, wouldn't you Vishaing)
As tech, we could take fascism to, but that's post WWI and there was a war economy too during WWI.
It has a lot of bonuses, but I would give it a lot because this is only good during wartime. In peace time, you are much better with free market or socialism, so you'll need a revoltution and anarchy, that's the malus.

The war economy idea sounds interesting. It would be great to compromise other areas for extra production and happiness during prolongued conflicts.

I don't think barrackses should give happiness under War Economy... During the Vietnam War, say, the people were anything but happy from barrackses and things like that. How about +50% production for military improvements, along with the bonus for units.

Well something should represent "wartime spirit" and the surprising nostalgia British civilians (for example) felt for the days of rationing and gas masks. I know wartime Britain hardly compares to a ravaged nation where the war is on your doorstep, but that isn't the nature of a 'War Economy', I suppose.

War economy is a simulation of WWI and WWII situation. The Vietnam war was a criminal act of the USA like the invasion of Iraq. The charter of the UN (signed by the USA) states that no nation may intervain in the governement of on other (even the most terrible one) unless there is a resolution of the UN giving the right to do so. So soldiers die in a criminal war the solves nothing and is illegal. No wonder so many people opposed and still oppose these wars.

The one thing I don't like about war economy is the idea of a civic to represent it. I miss civ 3's 'mobilization' right now. Frankly I wouldn't object to a civic to represent it in theory, but I have a feeling that the AI would not understand it and would use the civic even in peaceful times, and not realize what it was doing.

So I think we need to figure out something else.

currently, I am looking at:

Barter Economy: (starting civic, upkeep: None)
No Effects:

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
+1 hammer from farm

Mercantilism: (tech: Banking, upkeep: Medium)
+1 free merchant, no Foreign Trade.

Free Market: (tech: Economics, upkeep Low)
+1 trade routes, +50% foreign Trade Profit, -50% domestic Trade Profit

Planned Economy: (tech Communism, upkeep High)
+1 Production from each tile with Village/Town/Mine/Workshop/Lumber Mill

Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 happiness with forest, +2 healthiness per city.

Now, to discussion. I'm not to keen on Environmentalism as a civic myself, but as I said replacing it with War Economy doesn't set with me either.

As for Free Market, I really like giving it the foreign trade bonus, as it makes it a more diplomat's civic than warmonger's. It just seems like a cool dynamic, but perhaps +2 trade routes is too much, so I did shift it down a bit.

Planned Economy I really se as the shift of commerce to production to help build a massive juggernaut production base of united workers. I'm unsure, what is your rationale for the food bonus instead of hammers?

I dislike the idea of Mercantillism giving unlimeted merchants because this never seems to do anything for me. so lets go with 1 free merchant.

Closed economy I had no ideas for and therefore cannot really argue with what you suggest :D .

Planned economy: it has collective farms, that should give some extra food (if your state has capable leaders)

Mercantilism : OK, in my original ideas, I had a vision that for every specialist type, there was a civic that allows unlimited spec. That's why, but 1 free merchant is OK.

I think the War Economy idea is valid. Using it over say Free Market is reasonable in that severe rationing is probable during a War Economy period. I'd tone down the happiness. No negation of draft unhappiness, but +1 happiness for Drydock (are they in RoC?) and Barracks. And add a +1 happiness per military unit per city----but up to a limit (say +2?). (So no one's really happy to be drafted, but you could draft and beat the draft unhappiness by not moving the unit).

Possibly tone the military unit production to under 50%.
Maybe a general economy tone down to represent rationing? One less happinness luxury per city? One less commerce per plot that has 3 or more?

And no negation of war weariness (to not confuse it with Police state). I think that would distinguish it well from Herditary Rule, Police State, and Nationhood, while still representing increased mobilization level. <Realistically the Vietnam era protests were war weariness---there is no Just War concept in CIV 4>



On AI usage---perhaps there's a way to test if the AI is actively 'warmongering' or not, to determine if it resorts to this civic. I think it'd be a simple check of "Yes at war" and "Yes desparate to build new units". Also a 'facist' would definitely use it to build up for war even at peace. The only problem is if the AI then turns around and disbands them all (and the tech tree will probably be past Mercenaries for the AI to sell its units). Perhaps the AI could engage in some proxy war by gifting extreme excess units to allies?

The one thing I don't like about war economy is the idea of a civic to represent it. I miss civ 3's 'mobilization' right now. Frankly I wouldn't object to a civic to represent it in theory, but I have a feeling that the AI would not understand it and would use the civic even in peaceful times, and not realize what it was doing.

Dumb question I'm sure, but is it possible to play with this stuff in the Warlords version of the game? Or am I stuck with Vanilla only?
Thanks...

Why not introduce another catagory ? Enviromental policy.

Whatever happened to this project?

I think Rhye isn't going to use a new civic system.

I think Rhye isn't going to use a new civic system.

it's not my business. You should ask Vishiang

Yeah, this project has taken a bit of a back burner due to my inactivity, and I apologize for that. To make a long story as short as possible, not more than two weeks ago I had to completely rebuild my computer, and while the code was saved as I always had a back up of it on my external hard drive, installing the SDK and everything needed to run it was very tiring and painful (mostly because my laptop was very, how shall we say, 'jury rigged') and I have been putting off doing it again.

@Spearcatcher: not yet, but I'm hoping to start work on this again sometime soon, and the first thing I plan to do is update RFC++ to the newest build and create a Warlords version, so hopefully you will be able to soon. hopefully, however given my recent history with this mod I wouldn't hold your breath.

@TheAmerican: I would prefer to not add any full civic categories. I had originally intended the expansion civics to be sort of a thank you present to Rhye for making not just one but two great mods. I still intend to RFC++-ize the 6th civic column Rhye made, but that will be pushed back a little bit by the situation I described.

@SadoMacho: doesn't look like it, but i had never really intended any of parts of RFC++ to ever become core features of RFC, though it would have been pretty cool. That doesn't mean I'll stop making them.

Hopefully I can get myself back working on this again. First, I need to reinstall cIV. I'm hoping that the break I took will make me rusty with the game, and give me another chance to get back into it, because I will admit I had begun to lose interest. And school is really taking up a fair bit of my time.

Heres to hoping I play once more. If not, I am truly sorry for anyone I disappoint.
-Vishaing

That's Right, I'm back. And I almost have what could be a good reason for having been gone for so long.

You see, first, I redefined my entire life and am switching majors and universities. But you don't want my life story, so I'm just going to tell you about the mod.

RFC++ has enterred version 1.90-1.10!!!

I think.
Funny thing, I have the dll code from version 1.90 and I know I used that code, but I cannot seem to find the normal xml and python files from v1.90 so it is entirely possible this is really a version somewhere between 1.86 and 1.90

Now then. What took me so long to update? well, I was lazy to start with, and then some random part of the Air Forces Mod is apparently either incompatible, or I copied over wrong. However I have taken this as a hint, and am rebuilding the entirety of RFC++ from scratch (I can rebuild it, make it better, faster, stronger.), or as much of scratch as I can considering this is only really me mergin already made code.

This is why the version number for RFC++ is now a 1. number.

Reguardless, the download is up an works. Unfortunately this is built on the Vanilla v1.90 and not 1.92, which Rhye just uploaded, but it still works well, and I should have it updated for 1.92 soon.

So, will this work with v1.92 as of now, or should I hold off on downloading it?

Go ahead and download v 1.92, this will, if you just follow the instructions, place the mod into its own seperate mod folder, so you can have both at the same time, though you cannot play them both at the same time (unless of ourse you have a PC powerful enough to have two civ4 processes running at the same time). Also, you won't be able to take save games back and forth between the two.

After all is said and done with the installation you shoulod have, in your civ4\mods directory at least two folders, "RFC++" and "Rhye's and Fall of Civilization"

It should look like this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Vishaing/folderimage.jpg

except your colors are porbably differnt, you might not be looking at my writing of my reply, and you probably don't have a folder called "copy of RFC++" (and don't need one).

However, in the event that you pasted the assets and stuff from within the RFC++ folder over the assets from the Rhye's and Fall of Civilization folder, it included all necessary files, and all of the base RFC files have been overwritten, so the game will run fine, however you will have none of the updates from 192 (and possibly might be missing some from 190).

Hope that helps. Hopefully I should have the mod re-updated by wednesday. (I have a busy day tomorrow, otherwise I woul say by tuesday.

X_X My eyes, your Window is too much bright!

Well, any plans for a Warloards version?

Bureaucracy (tech: Writing, upkeep: Medium)
+1 happiness / culture with courthouse, +1 happiness with Granary, +1 happiness with Academy (that's a lot of happiness, will really help in the early game period, but I feel there should be another bonus and some penalty. I think the +5% commerce with grocer and market might be a good bonus, but I can't think of a good malus.

+50% to thecost of civics.

Excellent mod!
Will there be a warlords version?

Is this for vanilla or warlords?

This is currently only for vanilla, however a warlords version is definitely in the works. (if anything just because I play warlords).

@ Edungeon: You should see the rest of my computer, starting up greets you with all black windows with red text and a background that is an animated .gif of static covering two monitors on 1280X1024 resolution. :D I take pride in the inaccessibility of my computer.
(Though Ironically, a dark colored desktop is in fact easier on and better for your eyes.)

@Whitefire: +50% to cost of civics. I assume you are speaking of the same cost that the Organized trait reduces by 50%? If so, that is possibly one of the most brilliant and applicable ideas I have heard of. Sounds good, although I might nead to reverse engineer the ability from the trait itself and possibly may need to add negative number support (or positive number, depending on how the Sid did it.). However I am going to hold off on restarting the civic balancer until after I have finished rebuilding the vanilla version and building the Warlords version. once that starts back up feel free to come down and give ideas, and just because somewhere we said we were "moving on" from a category doesn't mean you can't still give ideas, just don't expect focused discussion only on that civic.

@Tboy: why thank you! :D

Yes I meant the reverse of Organized. Here's the rest of my thoughts.

Socialism: (tech: Communism, upkeep: Medium)
+25% science, +1 happy, +1 health, +50% ww

Huh? I don't get how governmental control of the economy gives a bonus to Science.


Environmentalism: (tech: Ecology, Upkeep: High)
+1 food per farm/fishing boat. +2 :happy: with forest, +2 :health: per city.

IMO, this civic could be more intense. First off, there should be a happiness penalty for every mine not on a resource. Strip mining is Not OK (tm) in any green economy. Windmills should receive a +1:commerce: bonus. Forges and Factories have +1 and +2 unhappy, respectively, but lose their :yuck: penalty since green regulations curtail industrial pollution. Coal plants become unavailable. If one exists before the civic change, it's a +4 unhappy.

Unionization

Disunity

Nationalism and Anarchy seem more appropriate.

-50% distance maintenance, -50% number of cities maintenance, -40% in all cities save the capitol. +2 free units per city (This should let Greece conquer a massive Empire really quickly)

Heck, that will help with any UHV that requires conquering large swaths of land (Rome, Mongolia, Persia, Arabia, etc.). One problem I have is that -40% makes it unusable, even if it saves your economy. There's no way you could build those extra 2 units per city.

Sorry, I'm being stupid but what is the actual purpose of this expansion? :blush:

Huh? I don't get how governmental control of the economy gives a bonus to Science.


Socialist states often make it possible for more people to get a good education, so you get more science. They also spend more money on science and shools, so universities get more money and can do more research.
Also, Socialism isn't planned economy you know of the soviet union, socialism with free market is the system of North Europe.

BTW
*
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2888
a nice MOD from TheLopez that gives 2 free priests with theology, it can be used for a free mechant with Mercantilism.

*
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4309
a nice MOD to add by Zebra 9

Ohh, so it's just like adding modcomps on? cool.

I was just about to suggest archeology =P

for the economy civic Guilds:
Rename it to 'Corporate economy'. Guilds were corparate system, and it could be used for the fascist economical system.
The code from Ankor Watt could be used in the same way TheLopez has made the MOD I mensioned above.

Yeah, I've been looking at the archaelogy mod myself. Fortunately its just a python/xml mod, so it should be really simple to merge and should be in the next build.

@Talkie_toaster: Pretty much yeah.

Now, about the civics:
SadoMacho covered the plus to science for socialism.

As for the sixth column, I think I'm going to try to get it to more closely resemble what Rhye already has, IE, the civics are there mostly to balance and effect stability. For instance, for Colonialism I think I will do a 'no stability hit from colonies with a luxury or strategic resource in their city radius.' and stuff like that. Imperialism might lower the maintanence stability hit, stuff like that. I haven't looked much at the stability code yet, so I'm unsure what all I can do.

Environmentalism is a tough one, because It is not an economic system that has ever been achieved, and I don't see it happening for a long time. I would really like to replace it with something, but I am unsure what.
Earlier people were suggesting 'Wartime Economy' and I think those ideas have some merit, although I would like it to be redefined slightly. I'm unsure. I would really like to just figure out a way of bringing back the civ 3 'mobilization' function.

Ultiamtely for the civic however, I have no ideas of my own, so keep suggesting things.

@SadoMacho: Curse you for replying while I was.

Hmm, guilds as Corporates you say? hmm, perhaps rename it to Cooperative Economy. As Corporate sounds far too modern to me. But then Cooperative Economy starts to sound like another way of saying communism. hmm. I'll try and think of other things to call it that are similar, but Corporate Economy would work. SO I'll use that If I can't think of anything I like better. Thanks for the suggestion.

Will I be spanked for this?

Will I be spanked for this?

You wish!!!

Thats what she said!

3-8-2007 Build:
RFC++ v 1.93~1.20

Well, the mod has been updated to the next build!

I couldn't manage to get a Warlords Version out just yet, so that is my next goal. It shouldn't take too long, but I want to put out two fully rebuild versions next, so I estimate Sunday at the latest you will all have shiny new mods to play with!

Also on a side note, the Archaelogy mod is programmed, differently, than every other Python mod I have seen, and is in its current state incompatible with RFC However the code seems pretty simple, so I should be able to reverse engineer it into its own file instead of the CustomEventManager.py, using some of theLopez's mods for guidance. Hopefully it will be in the Sunday Build.

3-11-2007 Build(s):
RFC++ v 1.93~1.30
RFCW++ v 1.43~1.10

What is the Archeology mod?

It records where city ruins were on the map, then allows for them to be forgotten. Finally, after Scientific Method is discovered the ruins might be found again, and they will generate +4 gold on whatever tile they are on. (plus give you a little blurb about the civ that owned the city).

It sounded like a nice idea, and was pretty cool, but not necessary, so I'm putting it off until the mod is more fully completed.

A better function would be if I could also get it to gift a little of the old owning civ's culture to the plot and plots around it.

I was thinking today about my great president Bush. And then it hit me, why not add a Corruption civic? Corruption has happened in every government since the beginning of time regardless of how "enlightened" the people were.

----

The start would be Kleptocracy. no bonuses or drawbacks.

----

The first to be discovered is (a term I can't remember). Back in ye olde days, currency was worth what it was made of. Governments would often often collect large amounts of the currency and either melt them down and combine them with a heavery metal, such as lead, or out right punch holes in the coins. The government would then keep this gold to continue to fund it's ambitions.

Effect: +3 gold per city. +4 unhappiness per city. +1 unhappiness from Markets, Grocers and Banks (The more people use their currency, the more they think about how they're being defrauded). A small chance of a Great Depression breaking out.


----

Next up is Nepotism. You could switch to this after discovering Monarchy. This one was a little tricky for me to balance right. Having family-only in the high offices of the land make for a safe government, if not well run. The people generally accept the appointments, but will mutter if there is any perceived incompetence.

Effect: 4-star civic stability. Double unhappiness from whipping and drafting.

----

Finally we have Insurgency/Nation Building. I'm not sure what term should be used, especially given the charged political climate surrounding these actions atm. Basically, you would spend money to foment rebellions. This is would be most useful late-game to push a super-power off the leaderboard by having a new wave of Nationalism spread through her territories. Although this m,ay be a double edged sword, since any foreign nations you control may decided to rebel against you!

Effect: +200% chance of a dead nation declaring Independence. -10% GDP.

----

We need a couple more to make the column as long ast he others.

Is there room for another civic column? Also, I think that corruption is a good idea, but that civics is the wrong place for it. Corruption is generally not the sort of thing you want in your government, but is an inevitability.

I think Civics is the perfect place for it. That way you can choose whether or not your government will take part in it. And yeah, there's room for it. IIRC, FFH2 has 7 columns for Civics.

I don't see the need of the civc colom. The 'Distance from Palace maintenance' is a symbol for corruption.

I think I remember Rhye saying that 7 coloumns would mess up the interface, or something like that...

I agree with Sado, it should not be in

I don't see the need of the civc colom. The 'Distance from Palace maintenance' is a symbol for corruption.

Not really. Thats a catchall for many costs. The cost to hire a local beuracracy, the cost to run government buildings, the cost to communicate to the cities and, yes, the cost of local governors skimming off the top. Anyway, just an idea.

No, that's the 'Number of cities maintenance', 'distance from palace maintenance' is like the corruption from older CIV versions. If a city lays far from the capital, it has more corruption because the central governement is far away.

I agree, governments dont sit down and discuss what type of corruption they need!

Closed Economy: (tech: Sailing, upkeep: Low)
Not sure about this one, Ideas?

Given that the lowest one is "barter", the next one up might be "coinage" as an economy. Then again, that is sort of delt with by the currency tech (it assumes you start using coins once you get the tech).

...

We want a low-tech economy.

Family Property? That would be where all property is owned by your clan/family, and personal property is unknown.

Intercity Trade?

Private Land Ownership?

Property Registration?

Tarrifs and Taxes?

change is to estate economy, give farms +1 hammer, +1 gold and -1 trade route.
This is the economy of the late roman empire and the dark ages.

And thus upon the third day, The son did rise again!

RFC++ WARLORDS IS COMPLETE!
oh, and I updated the Vanilla version too.

And now, I'm taking a slight break until Friday, at which point I have a break from school, and I intend to begin playtesting Dale's Combat Mod.

After that I will look at the civics again. Though I do say your ideas have been very good so far. Keep them coming.

RFC++ is for Warlords too? Great! Maybe you'll include Unique Historical Crashes?

Maybe I wi... wait what?

Don't tell me its crashing, it worked fine for me. I think. one minute....

Yeah, its working fine. Although very slowly. Though that does remind me of something. Right now My computer is kind of multitasking like crazy, so i can't tell if the lon loading times are just that or all of the stuff I added. Ccould someone test that out and tell me if they think the loading times are longer?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206064

RFCW mod is really great. If this modcomp make it even better I don't mind waiting for the next turn ;)

I support Unique Historical Crashes!

What happened to the Archæology thing? Did it get put in?

I don't think congresses are working right in RFC++. I'm pretty sure they're fine in 1.93 or whatever version we're at, but the way they're working in RFC++ is weird. The lead-up works fine, bribing, etc, then the turn of the congress, 2 of the requests are displayed, you press ok or whatever and nothing happens and things progress like a normal turn. It's happened 2/2 times in my England game, so I'm positive I can reproduce it if necessary. I might even have a save somewheres from the turn before...

@Talkie_Toaster: Nope, its not in just yet. Its a pretty small mod, and it doesn't really do much other than give you a little blurb about the city and an added source of income, but it is a nice touch so I'm not to concerned about it.

@McA123: yeah, could you get me those saves. I think I probably ended up writing over some random line of code when I was merging, and it just happened to not be a vital line of code.

OH WAIT! I think I might know what it is. It might be an incompatibility with the Influence driven war. which would suck. I'll take a look at that too.

I don't think congresses are working right in RFC++. I'm pretty sure they're fine in 1.93 or whatever version we're at, but the way they're working in RFC++ is weird. The lead-up works fine, bribing, etc, then the turn of the congress, 2 of the requests are displayed, you press ok or whatever and nothing happens and things progress like a normal turn. It's happened 2/2 times in my England game, so I'm positive I can reproduce it if necessary. I might even have a save somewheres from the turn before...

I have this problem in the "Normal" version of the mod too, since the version 190. So I use the Congresses.py from the version 1.7... I doubt it has something to do with the Influence Driven War.

Really. Could you get me a copy of your congresses.py file. Both of them if possible, so I can check for differences between them?

The earliest version I have is 186, I'm not sure if that one works though because I haven't played the game to the point of congresses since version 080 or so.
Yeah, between 186 and 190 three aren't enough differences in code, just minor tweaks, in so I'm going to need a copy of the 170 congresses.py code.

In the Bugs thread Rhye stated that he had found a bug in Congresses.py in the latest Vanilla versions of the mod. We'll just have to wait until he fixes it...

hi,

i have uploaded this to Rapidshare.
I repacked it to .rar so the File is only 31 MB

http://rapidshare.com/files/21482297/RFC__.rar

Oh, ok, so it isn't just RFC++. I hadn't actually gotten that far in a regular game, but I figured that if there was a bug there, someone else would have found it by then.

Balance issue I would like to see: Reduce strenght of war elephant (to 7 or 6). Spanish war elephants are dominating French knights in my current game. Also, war elephants are must-have for the Chinese UHV, which I don't find historical.

Unit allegiance: Don't like it at all. I can't really recall whole armies(which civ units represent) switching allegiance in history.

Inquisition Mod: Great addition! But currently there is no real motivation to remove any religion from your cities. A historical victory condition requiring you to remove a particular religion, for example removing Islam from Iberia, Italy and North Africa (for Spain) would be awesome.

Dale's combat mode: Bad idea, IMO. Too many balance issues. Changes combat mechanics too much. The AI would be severely handicapped.

Unit allegiance: Don't like it at all. I can't really recall whole armies(which civ units represent) switching allegiance in history.

Large standing armies in Europe aren't historically accurate. Most of their forces were mercenaries. Just think of it as mercenaries umping their contract (which did happen regularly).

About Allegiance: I've been thinking:

I wnat to stop it from happening once nationalism has been researched. Also, I am thinking that maybe a 'fanatic' promotion might also provide this effect.

Now then, as for amries switching sides in principal. Armies were rarely slaughtered down to the last man, unless they were meant to be symbolic. Soldiers rarely defected, but they did sometimes surrender, and some, if their loyalty was enough in question, might offer their services as mercenaries, or they might be impressed into service, this happened often on ships in the Age of Sail. Of course some units should not be able to do this, UUs being such units, so I will have to make it so they do not switch sides.
In modern day, when armies surrender, they are taken as PoWs, and returned for a fee or after the war is done. Perhaps after nationalism for each army you lose you gain a shield in some random city? Probably too complicated, so I doubt I will implement it, but it is a possibility.

Dale's Combat mod to the best of my knowledge is slightly bugged, no longer supported, but the AI understands it fine. I am going to test it thoroughly for bugs long before I even start merging it, and only if it is bug free will I merge it.

To anyone who is willing, I could use testers to help me with this, so if you can manage to pull yourself away from RFC for a few moments each day (courage my friends:D ) could you try the Dale's Combat mod and Report back to me? Frankly, I am willing to rebuild the mod from the ground up if I can and have to, because combined arms attack is something I feel the Civ series has been greatly lacking.

Is there anyway to add Influence Driven Wars only to Rhye's and Fall? I have to source for IDW, but I don't have RFCs, so I can't merge and compile... :confused:

I can merge them if you would like that. Which version do you want, warlords or vanilla?
I should be able to make it really quickly.

Though I still haven't updated RFC++...

I can merge them if you would like that. Which version do you want, warlords or vanilla?
I should be able to make it really quickly.

Warlords. That'd be awesome if you could do that for me. Thanks. :)

You have written that the several mods, including the airforce mods are inteded, does that means that you have included them now and do you have a new download link? This looks awesome! :)

That's right boys and girls step right up for Vishaing's ultimate invention the RFC++ update guaranteed to cure any ailment guaranteed to fill that hole in your heart just apply twice daily and remember to leave all of your cash and valuables on the counter. Step right up ladies and gentlemen, fun for all ages!

Possible mods include:
V.1.95-1.20
W.1.46-0.10-IDW
W.1.46-0.10
TV VCR Repair.
Computer Programming
Interior Design

and many more

Just call now. Operators are standing by!

Now I am hopefully going to begin the Dale's Combat Mod testing in earnest. Maybe.
I Hope.

Also, to Arminius, your requested Warlords IDW only is included in this update, its the 'HOODY-HOO!' download link.

Now. To sleep.
-Vishaing

-EDIT @ cFccFc:
No, not yet. the post of 'Intended Mods' shows the mods that I have the source code for and intend to merge into RFC, but haven't yet. The only mods in RFC++ at the time are the ones in the 'Included Mods' post.
I miss the Air Forces Mod too. What's funny is it was in some of the previous RFC++ builds, before I made the mod for Warlords too. But something lately seemed to make in incompatible. I'm going to take another look at it, because I feel it is important, I just haven't yet.

Have you seen this?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=216309

Look great, doesn't it!

Indeed I have, and indeed it does.

I'm not sure if I'm ever going to include it however, as Firaxis has stated they have their own random events engine, and I see no need to reinvent the wheel unless the primem0ver's engine has greater maleability or optimization. If it vastly inreases loading times then I don't think you can expect it to be in the core RFC++ package, though I might make another mini-RFC++ like I did with just the IDW.

Overall however, I'm not planning any post-BtS development until both BtS is out and I have a copy of it to work on.

Though I just thought, it looks like the events engine of primem0ver might be compatible with warlords and perhaps vanilla, and if so, and if Firaxis doesn't update their events engine to these two (which is likely), then Yes I will include the primem0ver events engine into likely all RFC++ versions as I feel it is a good system to have.

It can also possibly create possibilities for some civ's UPs. For instance, since it seems the 'frostbite' event happens in certain latitudes, I would modify it slightly (once a unit has survived once in a turn it gets immunity to the event except for every 10th turn or such, and then Russia's UP will simply be immunity to the 'Frostbite' event. some religions civs might get bonuses to their prophet's abilities, stuff like that.

Actually, an Idea I just had, how about the inclusion of 'preferred climates'? IE, Scandinavia might not like marching viking warlords through the desert, but Egypt won't have any problem sending their archers out there, or such like that. I know this was proposed a LOOOONG time ago, back in the days of the Catapult project, but I don't remember what came of it.

what are your ideas about the 'climate' system. If I did a climate system, it would not create a 'chance of death' like the frostbite does, instead it would add promotions that give different penalties.

RFC++ has defeated Patch!

RFCV++ gains 532 Experience!
RFCV++ has grown to level V1.97-1.25!!
RFCV++ learned INFORMANT Spell!!!

RFCW++ has gained 489 Experience!
RFCW++ has grown to level W1.47-.10!!
RFCW++ learned ESPIONAGE Spell!!!

You found 2 Mercenaries Bug Fixes Included!!!

NOW THEN!
A Challenge!

as I said, I have rebuilt my informant mod for both RFCV++ and RFCW++ there is only 1(one) problem. Currently the Informant Icon is the same as the Spy icon, this could get very confusing, and is innacurate. However I am bad at creating Icons, and did not like my last Informant Icon (it was too dark and didn't look like any of the normal cIV icons.

SO I am asking on of YOU (Uncle Sam Poster), to make an Informant Icon!

(The Internet Hates Me.)
EdIT: If any should rise to this occasion, I would like you to post the Icon on this thread, or if you don't wish such publicity, you can PM it to me or Email me at Vishaing@hotmail.com!

Obviously if I use your Icon I will post your name in the credits and offer my wholehearted thanks.

Good Luck
-Vishaing

Just a minor suggestion, maybe Sustenance should be changed to Subsistence. (the latter is growing and making only what you need for yourself, I think it makes a bit more sense)

Bob you necro let this thread rest in peace!

I'm sorry. -slaps self-

Download link not working

thread rest in peace? why so? isn't any new development happening here? :)
and how is this piece combinable with RFC Epic? both ideas sound good, but both seem to consist of the complete package..

I'm mostly abandoning this thing I think. though ironically enough if i remember correctly this was a piece of cake to update compared to Epic.... I'll look into this code again, though i would have to completely rebuild it.

I plan to incorporate a few choice mods into Epic, for instance the MAD Nukes Mod, and possibly a few others.

I would also like to try to get the Dale's Combat Mod working, maybe now that he is actually updating it he might put out a finished version that will work.

Its a shame really, combate inlfuance was so great with rhyes, as the are less cities in europe indevidual tiles are worth fighting over.

<rant>
And when I play now I am their like "I have more troops, they surrendered, why cant I just demand this area of land when they did offer me the city the other side of it?"
</rant>

Don't Worry, Influence Driven War is definatly on my list of mods to include into Epic. :) (Notice it was the only mod Component I actually made a seperate RFC++ just for...)

why do you want to include other mods on epic?
Isn't RFC++ the place to include whatever component, and epic supposed to be the marathon version of RFC?

I simply really like the concept behind a few of the mods. If I merged some other mod comps into Epic it would likely only be the MAD nukes mod and the Influence Driven War mod at first.

I just really miss RFC++, and would like to be able to play with some of the Mod Comps on an Epic Timeline, but trying to update 9 mods is too much, though I will take a look at it once my testing for the UHVs in Epic is done.

9 mods? what are the other 3?

You could limit the RFC++ to BTS anyway, I don't think there's a large user base for it to justify you to keep all the versions

I would have had 9 mods in total because:
3 for RFC Epic
3 for RFC++
and 3 more for RFC EPIC++

a nightmare. But that was always just an upper bound.
Limiting RFC++ to just BtS might work...

Does anyone here really want the other versions?

ah, I didn't count RFC EPIC++.
well, why bother.
To minimize your amount of work, you could just do 3 versions of RFC epic and BTS only of RFC++, no more than this.

That's likely what I'm going to do. And from there I might update others if I have time.

Haven't read the whole forum yet (so may be missing it) but can this be downloaded anywhere else? Filefront pretends it has no clue what I'm talking about, and registration does not work for me. It's one of those sites that's not very universal.

Kevin

Will it ever be useable on BTS?

Please, no, not just for BTS!

I got here from a link... How old is this thread?

Seems like a good idea, and maybe only for BTS would be worth it.

Yea, this realy needs to be updated to BTS. I ran into this thread in someones signature and seing no BTS link made me die a little on the inside.