I think we need another new approach to techs and how we want them to represent the scale of WH history in the mod.

The ancient era seriously lacks design and that's mainly because we didn't think enough about the timescale we chose for the mod imo. Where should this mod really start? in the stoneage or not better a little later?

Things I'm not happy with:
-Religions should enter the mod earlier
-ancient era is lacking cultural advances, maybe we should take some techs from the age of magic and transfer them here
-as said WH-history isnt reflected correctly-problem is we have many civs that have their golden ages in different eras - how to find an elegant solution for this?

First we should discuss the timescale. Where do you think the ancient era should start here?

* -15000 to -5590

* The Old Ones flourished in Lustria Spawning of Slann, Saurus, Skinks and Kroxigor. Founding of first pyramid cities. Creation of the World Pond and the separation of continents. (L) -5600

* Chaos (C) -5589 to -4420

* Collapse of the polar warp gates. The Old Ones perish. Many cities fall into ruins. Oldest of the Slann also perish. Lizardman armies prevail over daemonic hordes. (L) -4920

* Chaos (C) -4920

* Aenarion passes through the sacred flame and then defends the Shrine of Asuryan against the Chaos Horde of Morkar. (HE) -4909

* Aenarion arrives in Caledor and is recognized as the chosen of Asuryan by Caledor Dragontamer. The great dragon Indaugnir becomes Aenarion's steed. They fly to Vaul's Anvil where the Dragon Armour of Aenarion is forged along with many weapons that will eventually become heirlooms of the great Elf noble families. Technically, the rank of Prince in present day Ulthuan belongs to anyone who can show possession of one of the ancient weapons. (HE) -4904

* The war against Chaos begins in earnest as the Elf Dragonriders descend from Caledor and take the fight to the enemy. (HE) -4761

* The forces of Chaos are driven back for a time and a fragile peace descends on Ulthuan. Aenarion marries the Everqueen Astarielle and two children, Yvraine and Morelion are born to them. (HE) -4713 (Note 1)

* Aenarion rescues the witch Morathi from a Slaaneshi warband. They make court in Nagarythe. (HE) -4707

* Caledor Dragontamer concludes that the only way to stop Chaos is to drain the winds of magic from the world. He starts repairing and expanding the ancient network of standing stones which has stood upon Ulthuan since the dawn of time. (HE) -4458 (Note 1)

* Morathi bears Aenarion a child, Malekith, the future Witch King of Naggaroth. (HE) -4500 (Note 1)

* The Battle of the Isle of the Dead. At this epic battle Caledor Dragontamer creates the magical Vortex. Aenarion suffers a mortal wound and as his last act flies to the Blighted Isle and drives the Sword of Khaine back into the alter. Aenarion's body is never found. (HE) before -4500

* The Time of the Ancestor Gods. No written records of these times survive but legend relates that the Dwarfs began their slow consolidation of the Worlds Edge Mountains about Imperial year -5000. This age came to a close with the coming of Chaos, the disappearance of the Ancestor Gods Grimnir into the Chaos Wastes, and the disappearance of the other Ancestor Gods shortly afterwards. Dwarf tradition holds that Grimnir closed the mighty Chaos Gate after battling with the Chaos Gods thereby saving the world from certain doom. Shortly before Grimnir's disappearance the Dwarfs and High Elves meet for the first time, and friendly relations are established between the two races. (D) -4500

* The time of the Ancestor Gods. No written records of these times survive although legend tells of the gradual colonization of the Worlds Edge Mountains. (CD) -4461 (Note 1)

* Aenarion rescues the witch Morathi from a Slaaneshi warband. They make court in Nagarythe. (DE) -4458 (Note 1)

* Morathi bears Aenarion a child, Malekith, the future Witch King of Naggaroth. (DE) -4419

* First High Elf explorers penetrate Lustrian jungles. (L) -4419

* The coronation of Bel Shannaar marks the end of the war whit Chaos and the start of the great period of rebuilding that sees the rise of Tiranoc to pre-eminence among the Elf realms. (HE) -4419 (Note 1)

* Aenarion is slain at the Battle of the Isle of the Dead. Malekith is passed over as the new Phoenix King and Bel-Shannaar is crown in his place. (DE) -4300

* The most adventurous Dwarfs journey across the barren upland region north of the Worlds Edge Mountains which they name 'Zorn Uzkul' (or the Great Skull Land) in the plain of Zharr. (CD) -4164

* The foundations of the first colonies in the New World on the east coast. Malekith defeats the Orc warlord Gritok Redfang and saves the city of Athel Toralien. (HE), (DE) -4119

* In this year Malekith of the High Elves and Snorri Whitebeard the High King of the Dwarfs combined their mighty armies and finally drove out the last remnants of Chaos from the Old World. Afterwards trade between Dwarfs and Elves flourished and the Dwarfs founded many new strongholds. (D) -4119

* The elves land in the Old World. Malekith befriends the Dwarf King Snorri Whitebeard and together the armies of Dwarfs and ELves begging to drive the remnants of Chaos from the lands. As the colonies prosper wealth begins to flow back to Ulthuan. (HE) -3500

* Abandoned by their gods, Dwarfs of the Dark Lands turn to the worship of the evil god Hashut, the Father of Darkness. (CD) -3418

* The Cult of Pleasure begins its slow spread through Nagarythe and across all Ulthuan. (HE) -2839

* The High Elf Phoenix King Bel-Shannaar visits the newly founded Dwarf stronghold of Karaz-a-Karak where he is made welcome by the aged but venerable Snorri Whitebeard. The two great kings swear an oath of friendship, and Malekith remains in Karaz-a-Karak as his King's ambassador. For awhile Elves and Dwarfs prosper, until the Elves are draw back to Ulthuan where civil strife is tearing their land apart. (D) -2839

* Bel-Shannaar himself visits the newly founded Dwarf stronghold of Karaz-a-Karak and signs the pledge of eternal friendship between Dwarfs and Elves. Malekith stays on as ambassador and remains on friendly terms with the Dwarf Kings. (HE) -2798

* Malekith begins his great period of wandering around the world in search of magical artifacts of elder times. In the northern wastelands Malekith finds the Circlet of Iron in the ancient ruined city of Vorshgar. (DE) -2788

* Malekith begins his great period of wandering around the world in search of magical artifacts of elder times. (HE) -2774

* In the northern wastelands Malekith finds the Circlet of Iron in the ancient ruined city of Vorshgar. (HE) -2774

* Malekith returns to Ulthuan and denounces his own mother as a lackey of the Chaos gods and a traitor to the kindred Elves. (DE) -2774

* Malekith returns to Ulthuan and denounces his own mother as a Slaanesh worshiper. The Cult of Pleasure is revealed as being secretly given over to the worship of Slaanesh. (HE) -2750 to -2751

* The massacre at the shrine of Asuryan. Bel Shannaar assassinated. Malekth is burned by the sacred flame and horribly mutilated. Later that year his assassins try to kill the future Phoenix King Caledor I who is rescued by a band of Chracian hunters, the ancestors of the White Lions.(HE) Civil war erupts across all Uthuan.(DE) -2749

* Coronation of Caledor. Malekith flees to Nagaryth. Civil war erupts across all Uthuan. Brother turns against brother as the devotees of the Cult of Pleasure stir up trouble in every city and town. (HE) -2739

* The renegade wizard princes flees Saphery and join Malekith. Hotek, a heretic priest of Vaul, steals the sacred hammer from Vaul's Anvil and makes his way to Nagaryth. (DE) -2736

* Malekith is sealed within his black armour and is hailed as the Witch King. The intensity of the war increases. (DE,HE) -2724

* Caledor defeats the Witch King at the Battle of Maledor. The Witch King flees and decides to implement his master plan. (DE,HE) -2723

* The Sundering. As a result of the Witch King's interference with the vortex that contains the Real of Chaos much of the northern Ulthuan is sunk. The renagade wizards raise the feares Black Arks and depart to the cold north to found the Dark Elf kingdom of Naggaroth. There is little the High Elves can do to stop them at this point. Tiranoc is lost beneath the waves and the cataclysmic unleasing of energies devestates the land. The Elves begin to rebuild thier shattered land. Contact is lost with the Old world colonies. (DE,HE) -2700

* Legend tell how the mighty ziggurat, Mingol Zharr-Naggrund (lit. The Great City of Fire and Desolation) was raised from dark iron and black obsidian by the most powerful Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers. (CD) -2630

* A Dark Elf expedition returns to Ulthuan and hostilities resume. Caledor reorganises the High Elf army for defence and begins the building of the Gateway Fortress in the norther passes. (DE,HE) -2600

* Enslavement of Orc and Goblin tribes throughout the Dark Lands and Mountains of Mourn. (CD) -2599

* Griffon Gate, the Unconquered Fortress, is finally copleated. It is the first of a series of massive strongholds that will eventually gaurd the approaches to the Inner Lands. The war rages on unabated as the Dark Elves seek to gain access to the Inner Lands and conquer the Holy Shrines. The High Elves resist them. (DE,HE) -2500

The rise of Nehekhara, the first true human civilsation. Upon thier death, thePriest King rulers are mummified and entombed in great pyramids. Those clusters of tombs and pyramids are called necropolises. (Un)

trouble with the warhammer history is that it is cylical and not linear as civ-history tends to be.
Technologies are gained and lost, civilizations crumble and new ones appear from nothing and rise to be their rivals.
It's very difficult to fit this into a whole.

-maybe limit civ choices to various eras?
Allow only ancient races to start in the Ancient Era.
Problem is then, that when starting in the Age of Magic, the ancient races will have the basic techs that humans/orcs still need to invent.
I don't think that this will work or be nice to play.

-I'd say start well after the collapse of the warpgates, maybe even after the fall of Nehekhara.

-Although it makes no [historical] sense to have darkelves before the chism, that didn't stop Sid from having frenchmen and americans in the stoneage.

-Whose stone age were you refering to? In warhammer every Era has it's stoneage for the next crop of races. ;) difficult. Poor mod-boss.

mmm, i think you have hit the nail on the head ploe:) this is exactly what needs a reform.

I like the idea of starting with the oldones entering the world, but, like you said, there isnt mush we can do with that.

i think, perhaps, we could start the mod at the rise of man. you know, it started out with nehekara, and then later on the brettonians became a nation, and the empire became, well, and empire :p, and kislev and estalia and tilia were developing better. that could have promise.

However, i still like the idea of starting with the slann. although, i really dont mind:) i will think about this some more.

I would ratherhave it start at the death of the old ones. Maybe have something like.
Age 1 : Chaos and evil starts to flourish as the power of the old ones is removed. Only the very most primitive technologies.

Age 2 : The elves and dwarfs gain their full strength and then slowly weaken as they fight each other. Technologies similar to late ancient and very early classical.

Age 3 : Sigmar is born! The power of man starts to rise. Medium and late classical technologies.

Age 4: The world starts to become techonological. Gunpowder is discovered and so are the lands of Lustria (don't know if this really happened at the same time). The last classical technologies and most meidieval technologies.

The events I have given are meant to be the start of those ages. I would make the ages progressively longer. So in a 400 turn game it should be roughly distributed; 50, 80, 110, 160.

I would ratherhave it start at the death of the old ones. Maybe have something like.
Age 1 : Chaos and evil starts to flourish as the power of the old ones is removed. Only the very most primitive technologies.

Age 2 : The elves and dwarfs gain their full strength and then slowly weaken as they fight each other. Technologies similar to late ancient and very early classical.

Age 3 : Sigmar is born! The power of man starts to rise. Medium and late classical technologies.

Age 4: The world starts to become techonological. Gunpowder is discovered and so are the lands of Lustria (don't know if this really happened at the same time). The last classical technologies and most meidieval technologies.

The events I have given are meant to be the start of those ages. I would make the ages progressively longer. So in a 400 turn game it should be roughly distributed; 50, 80, 110, 160.

How do you think it could work to have Elves and Dwarves at their full strength and later diminished? Do you think about a dynamic rise and fall of civs?

You could just give elves and dwarfs amazing UUs and UBs in the 2nd age, and then give them weaker UUs/UBs as time progress's.

You could just give elves and dwarfs amazing UUs and UBs in the 2nd age, and then give them weaker UUs/UBs as time progress's.
Maybe we can give some civs an earlier acces to techs like Literature(i.e. Highelves) and make their ancient units more "civilized", strong and expensive then. But also we would have to take into account that dwarves i.e. have many units that perfectly fit into the mechanical age but don't have much magic. This will be really complicated so more concrete suggestions for this anyone?

About the timetable I still have the issue with Religion. If we start after the collapsing of the warpgates some Religions should have been founded already, right? So how to find a good compromise for that? Religions should get founded in the game not before the start.

having later units less powerfull would work for AI's, but doesn't work for human players: they would just stop researching. Unless there is a major incentive, like increased vulnerability to magic or something.

I feel religion and magic are intertwined in WH.

having later units less powerfull would work for AI's, but doesn't work for human players: they would just stop researching. Unless there is a major incentive, like increased vulnerability to magic or something.


Yes that's true but we can make ancient units a little more powerful compared to other ancient units and late units a little less powerful to compared to other late units. Anyway I'm still not sure of that either. It simply won't work well with the dwarves at least:(

How about creating the dwarf/elven early superiority by making their tech development far faster than humans/orcs?
At the same time restraining their long-term success by depricating their growth.

Humans would eventually get even in technological terms when their numbers start to add up.

I agree, Religions need to be in competition more, this means they should be developped earlier.
Maybe each race should develop its specific religion, before it can develop it's civics (or magic/special units) more?
If we build in a bottleneck where all each race needs a religion, even the AI should resaearch it... eventually.

well, i dont particularly like the idea of fiddling with units. thats not the problem. its the techs and religions.

If we structure it something like this:

We start at the birth of the old ones, the infancy of the elves and dwarves, and the rise of the lizardmen. Humans are but a race or neanderthalic barbarians, with little technology. at this stage we can found the Old Ones Religion. we can give each ancient race (ie Lizardmen, elves and dwarves) a special tech that they start with, we'll call it "Words of the Ancients" this tech will give them the ability to build a special building in each city, well call them "The Archives" these buildings partially increase the tech rate of these civs, but they become obsoeate after some future tech (i cant think of one at the moment) the young civs (humans, orcs, goblins, ogres, oriental civs, etc.) can start with a tech, we'll call it "barbaric" (which will make the civ at peace with barbarians until a tech called "Basic Knowledge" is researched)it is also a prerequesit for a samll chain of techs, such as the basics, "shelter", "fire", "settled living" and "basic cropping" which are all required for a tech called "Basic Knowledge" which is a prerequisite for all techs.

the next religion to be founded will be the "Elven religion", the tech needed for this can be called "Elven Panthon" which can require a tech called "Magic Sight", which gives access to the magic techs such as "Raw magic" etc.

the next religion that will be founded is the "Chaos Religion" which will occur at a similar time to the "Elven Religion", and this signifies the collapse of the warp gates, and the rise of chaos. it also signifies the fall of the Slann and of the Old ones. The elves and dwarves are coming to thier golden age, and the humans are finally settling down, and ceasing to be barbaric. this religion can be founded by the first civ to research "Raw Magic".

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1572/primarytechscopydu9.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=primarytechscopydu9.png) this is something like i was thinking for the start of the tech tree.

thats all for, now. gotta go. what does everyone think of that?

I'd say no chance to ever get this balanced. Lets have the game started after the warpgates collapse. Many cities are in ruins and those ruins will be our goodyhuts. All civs will have to rebuild their empires or build them for the first time. Ancient races will get slightly better starting techs than others and maybe better ancient buildings but will have more expensive units so they can't use their advantage immediatly. Also we should think about less citygrowth for them.

how about start a little ahead in the tech tree, but miles (a whole age?) ahead in the magic tree? As well as that increase their science output but greatly reduce their growth rate and increase city maintenance.

how about start a little ahead in the tech tree, but miles (a whole age?) ahead in the magic tree? As well as that increase their science output but greatly reduce their growth rate and increase city maintenance.
that sounds good to me. What mechanics would we need for reduced growth? Also about the magic tree. Is it possible to make it in a way that there still can be interdependancies between mgic and techtree? I'm thinking of close relations or prereqs between gold magic and alchemie and celestial and astronomy i.e...

btw lopez new ingame techeditor will soon be released. This will greatly reduce the effort for revamping our techs as long they stay compatible to warlordsschema:) It will be a great tool which I can use to revamp the techtree in a seperate small mod and later integrate it back into WH.

I forsee no problem with having close links between tehc and magic. The only thing is do we really want that to happen? It could be fun to have a scientific civ fighting a war against a magical civ. About reduced growth, there is a few lines in Global.xml which say how much food is required to grow to the next level. I'll try to export that to civ info, so each civ needs a different amount of food to grow.
Not promising anything for the moment as my computer has crashed - again.

Oh damn that's bad news.:(

About interdependancies I don't plan many but a few just make sense. I.e. certain higher magictechs simply could need universities. But don't worry I plan to keep these links a small number;)

Thats a good idea for with the magic tree. but that dosnt rix the tedious ancient era in the tech tree:)

Is it also possible to make some religions only get founded by the magic tree, and others only in the tech tree, but some in both? this way certain religions would be founded by magical civs (ie elves and elven religion) but some religions would be founded by technological civs (ie dwarves and dwarven religion) this could also makecertain civs favour certain religions.

I like the idea of ruins instead of goodyhuts.
But do 'home-made' ruins then also provide a bonus or just the usual defensive+razing money?
How to differentiate between the two?

To summon the argument I said in the old religion thread.

1) All religions get founded by magic techs (similar to normal techs in civ 4)

2) The firstpreson to research one of these religions founds a religion (again, like in vanila civ), BUT the religion they found depends on which civ discovers the religion.
eg: Saladin is the first person to research meditation. Instead of founding Buddhism, he founds Islam. If Isabella had been the first to research meditation instead, she would have founded Christianity. If you are the first one to discover a religious tech, you get nothing, again, like vanilla civ.

3) To make sure all religions get founded, there is a certain tech/magic tech (in the second age?), and as soon as you research it you found your own religion, even if you are not the first one to research it.

@ everyone: here is a site to a good timeline and info on religions. the religions are basically the same as what i have put in the religion thread, but just bringing ui up again.:
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/85/48/

Before we go too far with the religions and techs thing, WHAT RELIGIONS ARE WE ACTUALLY USING? are we incorporating that wonderful religion mod which lets us have millions of religions, or are we only haveing 6 or 7 or What?

That's still not decided. I'd love to use Eusebius' Mod but it still needs a lot of developement so for now we should still stick to a few and wait for Eusebius improving his code further;)

We should choose a basic concept and stick with it.

ok, good, i just wanted to check again, i wasnt sure if it had changed or what :)

to sum up what i think would be good to help this problem:

( i will refer to points in the tech tree where religions could be discovered, i will call them 'tiers' eg, the first techs you can discover are called tier 1. the second techs you can discover after researching 1 other tech is tier 2, the third tech you discover after discovering 2 previous techs is tier 3 etc etc.)
have the game start at the fall of the Old Ones.
Old ones = first religion, tier 3, tech tree.
Elven gods = second religion, tier 5, tech tree / magic tree
Chaos gods = third religion, also tier 5, magic tree
Dwarf gods = fourth religion, tier 6, tech tree
Greenskin gods = fifth religion, tier 7, tech tree
Human gods = sixth religion, also tier 9, tech tree/ Magic tree
Jinto = seventh religion also tier 9, tech tree / Magic tree

Add some of these new buildings to the ancient era:
-Watch tower--- +15% defence
-Fur trader--- +1 gold from furs, game.
-tanners--- +1 sickness +1 gold for furs, game, sheep, horse, cattle.
-elder council--- +1 science
-Town Square--- +1 culture, +1 science, +1 gold, +1 sickness.
-Healer / Herbalist--- +1 health
-Jetty (cities next to water only)--- +1 food from coastal squares directly touching city square.

to show civilizations golden ages:
have the lizardman and elven civs start well into the magic tree (a whole age?) and a couple of tiers into the tech tree. but make their cities require more food to grow, and make units more expensive.
make the dwarves start well into the tech tree( several techs) but unable to gain access past a certain point in the magic tree (un-magical race) and have more food needed for cities to grow.
all other civs will act as normal.

I don't like the idea of a "food penalty". The disadvantage for the Elves is just to big: smaller cities produce less and their units cost more. Both effects together make the Elves almost unplayable.

I would advise against buildings giving a net bonus to cities, as that encourages ISC. I would rather see things that give +x% OR +1 trade route. How about early buildings being like:

-Watch tower--- +15% defence
-Fur trader--- +20% gold, +1 happy from furs, game.
-tanners--- +20% gold, +1 sickness, +1 happy for furs, game, sheep, horse, cattle.
-elder council--- +25% science, +1 food,
-Town Square--- +2 hammer, +1 culture
-Healer / Herbalist--- +2/3 health
-Jetty (cities next to water only)--- same as lighthouse (simpler to make)

This means that you have a choice between a quick growth boost with an elder council, or a quick production boost with town squares

yes, but were forgetting that in order for those +x% bonuses to work, you actually need some buildings to act as the base. what good is it building an elder council in a city with only 1 science? that only increases the science to 1.25. pretty pathetic gain if you ask me. at the moment, i dont think we have many, if any at all, buildings which give base bonuses (+1). look at the vanilla version. most of the ancient buildings give base bonuses in the ancient era. this acts as something to actually make the % bonuses DO something. this isnt a matter of want, its a matter of NEED.
that is why i propose having at least one of each commerce (culture, gold and science) building to act as a base.

Ok, ploe, remember you asked for some fluff on the Old Ones and the oldest Slann/ well here it is:D. i also think this would be the perfect time in which to start the game, in the "Rise of Sotek". please read it and see if we can use any of it.
(Its all quoted almost word for word from the old Lizardman rulebook.)


The Rise of Sotek

One of the most significant events in the history of the Lizardmen, and indeed the world, is the rise of the cult of the serpent god Sotek. Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones: such shadowy entities as Tlaxcotl, Chotec, Quatl, Tzunki, Xapati, Huanchi and the inscutible Tepoc. Sotek, was a new god, an upstart god, the god of the skinks. Now Sotek reigns as the great god of the Lizardmen, eclipsing the Shadowy Old Ones.

The Old Ones

All lf the Slann who knew the Old Ones when they dwelt upon the earth are now dead. Although the younger Slann were spawned in the time of the Old Ones before the Great Catastrophe, they never actually saw the Old Ones. The Slann of the first spawning acted as intermediaries. They were the only Slann wise enough and mighty enough to be permited into the presence of the Old Ones. All lesser Slann faithfully and unquestioningly worshipped and obeyed the Old Ones as though they were living gods, but had no idea what they actually looked like. They represented them with various carved images, totems and idols, derived from the imagination of the Mage-Priests. As far as the lesser Mage-Priests and the mass of the lizardmen were concerned, the Old Ones were indeed gods.

The Prophecy of Sotek

When the Old Ones perished so did the Slann of the first spawning. The Slann who remained continued to venerate the Old Ones and gods. The last of the first spawned Slann had inscribed the Great World Plan of the Old Ones onto sacred plaques of gold before they themselves perished. These plaques were copied by the remaining Slann and recensions of the sacred plan were created in all temple cities. It is not certain whether all the copies were faithful in every detail to the master copy, half of which has now vanished through the depredations and plundering invaders. For this reason, every sacred plaque is precious to the Mage-Priests, because it may reveal unknown details of the divine plan of the Old Ones. The mage priests will go to any lengths to retrieve sacred plaques which were plundered from their temples.

For countless centuries the Prophesy of Sotek was an obscure detail known from only one plaque, which was kept in the great pyramid temple of Chaqua. Only the Mage- Priests of this city knew about it and never pondered it’s meaning for very long., in case other Mage-priests should readthier thoughts and demand that it be rendered up to them, or worse still, demand that it be purged as corrupt. The Mage-Priests of Chaqua believed that the Prophesy was the true words of the Old Ones, but since it was to be fulfilled in the distant future, like so many of te other intentions of the Old Ones, they did not concern themselves with it before the appointed time.

The Prophesy of Sotek not only predicted the collapse of the Warp Gates but also the cataclysmic invasion of Lustria by the Skaven. As the Skaven were not part f the Old Ones’ sacred plan they are treated as enemies of all those who follow the Old Ones.

The cataclysm had to be endured. It would come, it would rage for many centuries, and in due course it would pass. The prophesy predicted the ruin of many cities, including Chaqua, and the spreading of a great and terrible plague.

The time of the rodent spawn would eventually be brought to an end when the mighty serpent Sotek would appear. Sotek was destined to prevail over the rodent spawn and would be heralded by the appearance of the forked tongue of a serpent. The Mage-Priests Chaqua considered Sotek to be none other than one of the Old Ones who would return to save his faithful servants from the dire peril that beset them.

The Plagues

It was not until rumours of a virulent pestilence arrived in Chaqua that the Prophesy was scrutinised by the Mage-Priests. This took a long time, and in the mean time many of the skinks in the city began to sicken and die. Finally the Mage-Priests proclaimed the Prophesy to the population and despatched a warband of skinks to fight and attack the rodent stronghold and bring back captives for sacrifice. The Mage-Priests had made up their minds to invoke Sotek in an awesome ritual. They hoped to attract the god with the smoking stench of the rat servants of his arch enemy, the Rat God.

Few of the skinks returned, but those who did, did not return empty handed. Unfortunately their captives brought the plague into the city with them. The Skaven chiefs were duly sacrificed upon the new alter to Sotek and the god was invoked. Within weeks the city was devastated by pestilence. The Mage-Priests perished. Their Saurus body guards took their remains into the crypts and sealed up the passages from within, determined to defend their masters to the bitter end.

Whilst this was going on, a new sight appeared in the sky, a comet with two tails forked like the tongue of an enormous serpent. This sign was viewed with awe and consternation in all of the Lizardman cities, but try as they might, none of the Slann Mage-Priests could interpret the omen. It was not predicted in the glyphs of any of their sacred plaques. Only on the Plaque of Chaqua was this even predicted and its meaning made clear. The Slann of Chaqua were dead and none of the Slann Mage-Priests in the other cities were even aware of the existence of such a prophesy.

The Migration of the Red Crested Skinks

The surviving Skinks of Chaqua wer left leaderless. The Skinks of that generation were red crested and the greates among them was Tenehuini. He proclaimed himself to be the Prophet of Sotek, and rallied the other Skinks to him. Tenehuini had declared that the sign of Sotek had appeared in the sky as predicted by the sacred plaque of Chaqua. This plaque was place in a reliquary and taking this with them, the entire population of red crested skinks deserted Chaqua and migrated ahead of the plague.

Wherever the red crests went, they proclaimed the Prophesy of Sotek and urged the sacrifice of rat spawn to invoke the god. All skinks were swayed by the new cult, especially as it was the skinks which were the main victims of the Skaven plagues

As for the Mage-Priests of the other temple cities, they viewed the prophesy with disdain and ignored it, despite the heavenly portent. Perhaps wisely, they forbade the bringing of rat captives into their temple cities for fear of plague. This frustrated the skink followers of Sotek who were at great cost and suffering, succeeding in capturing Skaven chiefs in skirmishes and raids. It was not long, therefore, before skinks began conducting their own rituals to invoke Sotek among the ruins of their stricken cities.

The Emergence of Sotek

Sotek heard their invocations, although it took many years of sacrifices to build up his power. Although the coming of Sotek was foretold, and the moment of his coming was heralded by the comet, it was still necessary for his followers to make him as strong as possible for when he was due to appear.

The appearance of Sotek was hinted at in the prophesy and by the comet. He was a mighty serpent, the swallower of all rodent kind. A serpent of such awesome size and appetite that he could swallow the Rat God himself and spend a thousand years digesting him. The rodent god would be crushed within his coils. So said the prophesy.

The time of Sotek drew nigh. In the Skaven stronghold, the comet had been observed and it was seen as an omen of another kind. Soon afterward, a snake infestation drove the Skaven up from their tunnels into the ruins. The serpents proved virtually immune to any pestilence which the Plague Monks unleashed upon them. At length the decision was made to abandon the tunnels and migrate. Clan Pestilens gathered together and resolved to hack their way though the jungle to the coast and from their return to their place of origin.

This was indeed what they did. It was said laterthat following behind the rat spawn came a gigantic serpent, none other than Sotek himself, accompanied by his myriad slithering legions of snake spawn.

It is also said that the serpent plunged into the sea after the rafts of the retreating Skaven, and emerged even mightier in the South Lands. From there he slithered into the depths of the earth in his relentless pursuit of the Skaven and now lurks there feeding endlessly on ratspawn and protecting his people from the menace forever. Such is the myth of Sotek.

Sacrifices to Sotek

The Mage-Priests could no longer ignore the power of the god of the skinks. Tenehuini, the Prophet of Sotek, was summoned before the High Slann. He revealed the prophesy upon the sacred plaques. It was now clear that the prophesy was in truth the words of the Old Ones. The Mage-Priests decreed that new pyramid temples be raised up to honour Sotek in every city, and so the Cult of Sotek became pre-eminent among the Lizardmen.

Every temple of Sotek has a sacred snake pit of great depth. At the bottom of the pit dwells an ancient and enormous serpent. These serpents have been nurtured for centuries by the skinks because they are sacred to Sotek.

Sotek is honoured and invoked by trowing sacrificial victims down into the snake pit to be devoured by the sacred serpent. Enemies captured in ballet are acceptable as Sotek’s rightful tribute of sacrifices. Sotek is most gratified by Skaven sacrificial victims because he relishes greately the flesh of the rodent spawn. The Lizardmen are therefore always eagre to render such delicacies to their beloved god.


EDIT: for more fluff on the Old Ones, Lizardmen and Slann, go to this website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardmen

I think this all might be a little too late. According to the armybook it's around the year 0 of the imperial calendar.
But another possibility might be the time after the war of the beard maybe. and we take the cult of Sotek instead of the old ones. Not sure yet though.

hmm, you're right that is too late :(

this is a very difficuld dilema isnt it.:sad: i mean, it makes sense that it should start at the begining, ie with the birth of the old ones, and civilisation. but then we would have trouble transforming it into a form that we can use in Civ.
but then if we start around the rise of man, we miss out the golden ages of the elves and dwarves. the Rise of Sotek is too late, the Destruction of the Wrp gates is too early, the creation of the Vortex in Ulthuan could be promising, probably still too soon though.
im truly confused. i might just shut up and stop changing my opinion. ;)

What bout the time of Woes round about 1500 before Sigmars birth. Slann Mage priest make shifts to the continents and bring the world into its final shape. Many Dwarven cities lie in ruins. Highelves just left the old world, Athel Loren founded.
Downside we loose ancient times of Khemri but then they could as well start of as undead immediately. Not to have the golden ages of Highelves and Dwarves might even be a plus since both have to recover from the battles of the last centuries which we could use as a good start to balance them with the other civs. Ok I know still strange but then we won't come around cheating WH-history anyway... Lets just say the Time of Woes had more devasting results to all civilizations than is recorded;)

To counter their slow (re)growth, we might give the Dwarves/Elves a early headstart by giving them more settlers to start out with than the other races.
Also reduced 'illness' (or free medicine tech) would encourage large cities early on.


The ancient races could also be given a headstart and lack of (further) technological development if we give them some free boni, but deny them the civics boni.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. ;)

Are we talking about trying to replacate the history in every game or just for the scenerios? Because in theory, maybe the Dwarf golden ends up later than the time of man simply because of a completly different world generated for that game of civ.

We have to remember this is still civ, with civ replayability, and which makes every game different. I would think getting it closer to the actual history would be better by triggering events in a scenerio rather than forcing it in every random game with this mod.

Are we talking about trying to replacate the history in every game or just for the scenerios? Because in theory, maybe the Dwarf golden ends up later than the time of man simply because of a completly different world generated for that game of civ.

We have to remember this is still civ, with civ replayability, and which makes every game different. I would think getting it closer to the actual history would be better by triggering events in a scenerio rather than forcing it in every random game with this mod.
No it's about the starting era. And what the techtree should look like. It's nothing about events. But I want the average game roughly found the religions in the right order i.e.- nothing hardcoded just a question of techcosts and placement in the techtree. It still should be possible to play different than WH-history told us. Also we need to be sure what our ancient era really represents to pimp up the design(what kind of buildings, techs etc. really fit to the era/civ in that era? What wonders?) this was totally unclear yet. I'm not going to forget that we do mod civ and no plans to just have an electronic historybook - no worries;)

that could work well ploe. i agree.

if we do what ploe said, we wont have to worry about the elves and dwarves being better at the start and weaker later on, because they are just as weak as humans at the start (does that make sense:crazyeye: )

So do we agree on Time of Woes for "Dawn of Man"? If so who'd like to write me a nice "Dawn of Man" text starting with the Time of Woes 1500?

what are you looking for? a short history for the leading up to the Times of Woes? if so i wouldnt mind sorting something out. how long do you want it?

sorry for my noobness, but at roughly what date is the times of woe on the imperial calendar.

about 1500 years before sigmar appeared in the Empire. quite a long time actually.

@ ploe, i was thinking, with the 'dawn of man' text, will you be putting it in place of the hints at the bottom of the 'dawn of man' movie? also, do you want a general history, or a brief history for each civ? (the latter would probably be easyer i think)

I like the idea of the time of woes....but as an apocalyptic event.
Which can be used maybe after each golden age ends...?


Dwarf/elf tech trees should not be disconnected from human tech trees.

Rather the longlived ones should have a predisposition to advance rather more quickly up the tree than the lower races.
Through civ tech boni as well as some race specific ancient buildings that grant some extra research. Maybe these races could have the ability to use an ancient-lore-specialist for free (disabled by choosing civic x).

about 1500 years before sigmar appeared in the Empire. quite a long time actually.

@ ploe, i was thinking, with the 'dawn of man' text, will you be putting it in place of the hints at the bottom of the 'dawn of man' movie? also, do you want a general history, or a brief history for each civ? (the latter would probably be easyer i think)
I think we need a general text for "Dawn of man" but can insert civspecific hints and fluff below. Same thing FFH has now.

@AH
Don't get where you're heading. Ancients aren't disconnected and I don't plan to except some civspecific techs later on like Whaag for Orcs, Gobbos now.
Ancient buildings can have slightly bigger techyields for ancient races no problem with that(but slightly only)

Ah, sorry about that diconnected bit.
That was more a response to an inner debate I was having with myself on the cons and pros of seperating some tech-trees entirely from the general tech-flow.

Ancient era buildings are not made redundant by Magicage technology?

Building design is probably something we should discuss in more detail after Chamaedrys linked the artfiles I sent him to xml and we get a playable version of WH back. Whatever values he types in we'll playtest and discuss the needs then.
Please back to my request I really want that decided. We agreed so far on the Times of Woe as start for the mod, right?
Now I need the pantheons. To get them in line with techs later.

Going back to Llama's spreadsheet of pre-civilized tech...which wouldn't work by the way because settled living is required for tech advance.

I have tried a similar thing for magical techs.
It is just a tryout and it is full of holes, but the major magicks are represented.

One of the main ideas is that the civ specific Oldfaiths determine some magic availabilities.
Religions have been half integrated but this needs a lot of optimization.


For reference purposes I'll try to attach the spreadsheet it below.
...okay a screengrab then. :blush:

Looks good.
I've just ordered a new computer, so I should be able to help within a week.

I agree. Good job AH! Needs more detail but is a good start.:)

that is good. but where are the 8 colleges of magic? :p and the High magic, and Lore of Athel Loren, and Gut magic, and Rune Smithing, and and and :D

@ Ploe: im sorry, i havent even started typing up the dawn of man text :( sorry. i havent had the time, im having to study for my exams so i wont be able to do anything untill after the 17th of november. i appologise, but you might want to see if anyone else wants to do that.
(this is also why i havent done much about buildings for a while:))

haha.

I said there were 'holes'. The colours of magic are a tier above colour-magic, I only included Gold and Amber for lack of space, but all 8 should be represented there.

Dark Magic could share spells with necromancy. As could brightmagic with the elemental magic of fire etc.

Rune smithing is represented as a subbranch of artificing and enchanted smithing in general.
It is a combination of disspelling (anti-magic =Dwarf-specific) and enchanting and forging etc.

High Magic would be Elf-magic.

I havent thought of including Athel Loren magic, but they would be a WE civ specific branch of spirit magic.

Skaven magics and artificerism will be elaborated on later too.

I wouldn't concentrate solely on magic. Try to include some cultural/religious techs as well.

well, just do the magic techs for now, there are HEAPS that we can do with magic without going into culture. we can use cultural techs to pad it.:)

Well remember, this has to be roughly as big as the tech tree, because we want to incourage people to split their research (very roughly) 50-50 between science and magic. If the few important magic techs are researched at the begining, then the player might just cut off magic research to concentrate on normal techs.

I'm trying to integrate all the various techs into a comprehensive linked list.

yeh, thats a good point Olleus

Well apart from WH-magic we could also integrate magic techs that give similar advantages like normal techs and obsolete those similar techs(or lets say replace them). Not only normal techs would have an impact on agriculture, hammers etc.
Also magic techs can be split into scorcery and divine magic. I think that would be enough so that we don't have to move any cultural techs to the magictree except maybe some religious ones.

thats a good idea ploe. i would definately agree to that.

I agree too. As a general rule I would say; anything that requiers technology/science/physical stuff go in the tech tree. Anything that is related to magic/wisdom/religion(?) go to the magic tree.

btw, we need to come up with a better name than 'Magic Tree'. Anyone have any ideas?

I agree too. As a general rule I would say; anything that requiers technology/science/physical stuff go in the tech tree. Anything that is related to magic/wisdom/religion(?) go to the magic tree.

btw, we need to come up with a better name than 'Magic Tree'. Anyone have any ideas?

power tree, magical arts, neotech(nogical) tree, divine studies, codex of power, mystic(al) knowledge, arcane rights, neopaganistic rituals, Spirt(al) Tree, Bob, ....

Or some combination of some of these, or we could always just call it the'Tree of Magic' ;)

The ladder of Arcane Knowledge.

Many Arcane technologies will combine with mundane science to create the practical applications that are of use to civilization.

Without cannon tech no warplightning cannon. Without writing no spellbooks.

Tree of Magic or Ladder of Arcane Knowledge sounds good. and then reffering to a magic tech in the tree we could say call them "Arts" or "Rights" instead of techs.

How about Arcane Tree? That way its short and similar to the tech tree but still different. I'm all for calling the the 'techs' Arts. Now lets just hope we can all remember this...

:lol: im sure well remember it all :)
ok, Arcane Tree sounds good.

Arcane river?
or something else with tributaries/branches. ;)


anotherr thing:

I feel we should not completely limit civs to their WH options.
History unfolds itself in mysterious ways and will not always happen the same way.
Rather we should make the chance of Brettonia developing gunpowder before the Empire smaller.
For instance by forcing Brettonia to research some additional tech first.
Or limit bretonian use of gunpowder by limiting their gunpowder-unitproduction to a single (less than optimal economically/magically) civic or religion.

Conversely, I intend to give skaven some shortcuts, partially because they lack certain basic-techs such as archery, partially because I want skaven to compensate this by developing gunpowder etc. early.

I agree completely. Instead of forcing History to unfold itself in that particular way, it should be encouraged to follow 'real' history.
Instead of making bretonia research some of techs first, couldn't you just give them bad/no gunpowder units, so they have little incentive to research it, while the empire and dwarfs have awesome gunpowder units.

I don't think that is fair.
Brettonia's lack of gunpower units is more a cultural thing than a lack of markmanship...although their manufacuring is also markedly less modern than that in the Empire.

So I'd prefer to limit Brettonian gunpowder units in other ways than just by useless units.

I agree with axerack. But will the ai understand it? I'm aware that Bretonnia could spend a lot of time with researching gun powder, but get nothing good for it.

Anyhow.

On another note: I totally messed up my WFB. :sad:

1: I have a duplicate listing of the skavenwarrior unit in the build list, all other civs can build them too.
2: The tech-tree page has become empty.
3: the interface is gone on startup (just after being forced to look at the empty tech page) using windows key and restarting the app resets this.
4: Using religions to represent the influence of the several clans seemed like a good idea, but they should not be placed in the list of possible state religions. (Or at least somewhere where they are legible).
5: My skaven religion icon does not show up on the map...I guess I need to reference to the low-rez icon here?

Well at least it lets me 'play' now for a while. ;) instead of dumping me to the desktop immediately the turn after founding the first city.


I gave the chronicles-branch techs a free tech if first to complete it. This speeds up the tech alot, but I feel is too powerfull. (I could research several steps into the Magic Era.) Still as a temporary hack to fix the 'darkages' it works nicely.

I tried to have another tech besides 'rawmagic' make visible warpstone, but I failed at this. I don't know how.


edit: 1: fixed this, I think. I had a duplicate unitinfo entry, besides it replacing warrior for skaven.

Just converted the religions.XML to the most recent hack...

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- edited with XMLSPY v2004 rel. 2 U (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Mark Cromer (Firaxis Games) -->
<!-- Sid Meier's Civilization 4 -->
<!-- Copyright Firaxis Games 2005 -->
<!-- -->
<!-- Religion -->
<Civ4ReligionInfo xmlns="x-schema:CIV4GameInfoSchema.xml">
<ReligionInfos>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_OLDFAITHS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGIONCORE_OLDFAITHS</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGIONCORE_OLDFAITHS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_MYSTISISM</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>20</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_OF.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religion/CR_OF.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_CHAOS_GODS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_CHAOS_GODS</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_CHAOS_GODS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_RAW_MAGIC</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>200</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_CHAOS.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/CR_CHAOS.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_CHRISTIAN</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_DARK_CHILDREN</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_DARK_CHILDREN</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_DARK_CHILDREN_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_DEAMONOLOGY</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>100</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_DC.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/dwarf.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_ISLAMIC</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_YOUNG_GODS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_YOUNG_GODS</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_YOUNG_GODS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_LITERATURE</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>100</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_YG.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/CR_YG.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_HINDU</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_GODSOFLAW</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_GODSOFLAW</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_GODSOFLAW_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_SPIRITMAGIC</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>100</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_LAW.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/CR_LAW.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound/>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_BARBARIAN</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_BARBARIAN</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_BARBARIAN_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_WARGAMES</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>100</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_BG.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/CR_BG.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_HINDU</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
<ReligionInfo>
<Type>RELIGION_CORE_MORTAL_GODS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_MORTAL_GODS</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_CORE_MORTAL_GODS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<TechPrereq>TECH_PHILOSOPHY</TechPrereq>
<FreeUnitClass>NONE</FreeUnitClass>
<iSpreadFactor>150</iSpreadFactor>
<GlobalReligionCommerces>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>1</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
<iGlobalReligionCommerce>0</iGlobalReligionCommerce>
</GlobalReligionCommerces>
<HolyCityCommerces>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>0</iHolyCityCommerce>
<iHolyCityCommerce>4</iHolyCityCommerce>
</HolyCityCommerces>
<StateReligionCommerces>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>0</iStateReligionCommerce>
<iStateReligionCommerce>1</iStateReligionCommerce>
</StateReligionCommerces>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/CR_MORTAL.dds</Button>
<TechButton>Art/Interface/Buttons/religions/CR_MORTAL.dds</TechButton>
<MovieFile>Art/Movies/Religion/Judaism/Jud_Found.nif</MovieFile>
<MovieSound>AS2D_BUILD_JEWISH_MOVIE</MovieSound>
<Sound>AS2D_BUILD_HINDU</Sound>
</ReligionInfo>
</ReligionInfos>
</Civ4ReligionInfo>


No Sub-religions.
They SHOULD not function as normal religions.
Instead they spread through acolytes building altars/shrines. right?
So they would be represented as buildingsonly.
(as such the buildings should be clearly identifyable on the map.
Chaos totems with their rune on top for instance.)

impressive :)

do the 7 Core Religions still spread as normal? and is that only the SRs that spread via acolytes and buildings?

Thanks this is nothing, currently translating the tech tree into xml..argh.
Yes the spread is low/normel according to the info you gave on them. (slow for Old faith, fast for chaos, etc.)

I'm not sure how to handle the SR's yet.

As they are now, they don't act as religions at all.
To initiate them now, we'd need an acolyte to start with in order to be able to build the altars. More like specialising a cities production.

This is not as it was intended. The SR are supposed to be religions, with icons, followers and spread to cities with the mother-CR.
Im not sure how to get this functionality without making a mess of the religion-tab (in-game), where there is only room for 6-7 faiths. (ie the CRs)

I guess magister Olleus will have to show us how it's done.

You could use Lopez' techeditor maybe. Just replace the python/dll of the mod with lopez editor files(rename the modfiles so you get them back later;))

Dunno what you mean there Ploep...
Anyhow, I'm almost halfway already.
(needs alot of tweaking naturally, and tying into units/buildings/spells)

Ok, good:)

no the SR dont ACT as religions, with spread or anything at all,its purely players choice which determines SRs in cities.

one thing that would be interesting, is if every now and again, SR buildings can spawn barbarian acolytes etc of different SRs (which dont attack) but only move to different cities and spread their religions, or inqisition others. that would make the SR a little out of the players control and add an element of chance like with the CRs.
just a thought.

here's a revised version of CIV4TechInfos.xml
(uploaded as a txt-file)

I meant in order to use Lopez' awesome ingame techeditor. You probably could just rename the pythonfolder and Gamecore.dll and replace them with with the files of Lopez' editor so you can change all techs directly in game.
That was what I planned to do in order to revise the techtree but since you are into it now and doing good and I unfortunatly really have to do my studies which I neglected for months in favour of this mod you could do this new techtree quite simple using Lopez' tool;)
That is if you want to. I probably won't be able to get back to modding until mid of January that's my problem right now:(
That means I only will be able to do small tasks until then...meaning I will upload new versions to include updates of the team but won't be able to contribute much on my own, sorry.

No problem Ploep.
Actually, the reason I was able to put this much effort in is that I am supposed to write a thesis.
I have a januari deadline, so that really needs some more effort.

The above techtree is my final version for now.
(I have not revised techreferences in the unitInfo or BuildingsInfo files.)

@AH: Great:thumbsup:

just one question:
why are goblins illiterate? (no access to writing) i mean they ARE the most inteligent of the greenskins.:p

@ ploe: no problem:)

they are illiterate because I only recently started thinking about having the gobbo's on top.
The current list represents the mixed golinoid society in a savage state (aka Orks daBoss)

:D suggestions are welcome.

There is a workaround for polytheism, which is required for Da big Waagh!
But I haven't thought too much about other writing-dependent techs....'spellbinding' (magicItems) will be a problem.
litterature...I think that doesn't draw all the way back to writing. This is unnatural. :lol:

Oh, i see now. god its hard not having the latest game:( cant wait for my comp:)

well, perhaps instead of preventing Greenskins from researchin Literature, give them a 'cave painting' building there, which acts as a Library (which i assume comes avaliable for the other races at writing) so they can still research it, but get a smaller benefit from it.

why must spell binding be writing dependent? Orcs and gobbos have their own form of 'writing' albeit, a very basic, one, used convey very simple ideas, such as "bash heads" so the Gobbos, who are pretty inteligent for a greensking, could scribble some magic cave drawings on weapons etc to give the same effect. so theres really not much need to avoid 'spellbinding' either.
(plus i dont really think its the symbols of writing which gives it meaning, only substance. spells could work and last if they were done verbally, but they would be stronger if they had a physical shape or object to bond to. (such as writing) sorry, that was some of my philosophy on magic :p)

oh, and why is banking pink? :p

You are right about writing.
But I think alphabet would be beyond orks.
(we just need to disable libraries etc for 'the horde' civic. Or have a research handicap)

Purple is a reminder for me that I changed it after writing xml.
The uploaded xml is up to date. So the colour should be yellow.

i agree, no libraries for Greenies. they can comprehend symbolt which represent things, but not alphabets. that just requires far too many brain cells, of which they are lacking greatly in :p

so is that the new tech tree complete then? good work AH :thumbsup: