A discusion on Immortal game [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 10:51 AM

Instead of starting a new succession game, I decided to play an immortal game and post it here so everyone can have a look at it and give their own suggestions, ideas, and observations. Hopefully everybody can learn something new.
This first turn actually runs all the way trough first 4 millennia. As game progresses I will make smaller turns, more like 20, 30 or so. The breakpoint will be a significant decision, instead of set in stone number of turns, or time periods.

Ill spare you the intro story i.e. And so the Sun shines once again at … bla bla bla…

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9937/pic1pt0.jpg

So here is the roll. Actually, this is a second roll. First time I got two gold hills so I regenerated map. I felt we need to give AI some advantage after all.

4000 BC
----------
Settle in place. Nothing special but not bad either.
In fact, this is the start I like the most – production is vital early in the game, more so than anything else.
Start worker and agriculture.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/405/pic2rn1.jpg

3920 BC
-----------
We get agriculture from hut. Since we have no animals running around, start B. Working.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5240/pic3ls8.jpg

3880 BC
-----------
Next turn we meet H.C. He says we choose wisely by not putting his head on a pole. Patience, soon enough I hope. We see cows and very valuable elephants we should grab before him.

3800 BC
-----------
Borders expand, we get 42 (a peculiar number) from other hut.
Incas capital is very close to us. hmmm

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6466/pic4nd6.jpg

3720 BC
-----------
We meet Mansa who’s naturally pleased with us at this point.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8128/pic5nn6.jpg

3560 BC
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Buddhism FIDAL. Meet some wild animals.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/4833/pic6xj5.jpg

3520 BC
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Well not so distant land after all, HC converts to Budhism, we own lions.

3400 BC
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Worker done, sent to work rice, start warrior.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7070/pic7on3.jpg

3320 BC
-----------
Meet Mao.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1200/pic8az9.jpg

3240 BC
-----------
No bronze in sight, start AH.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3208/pic9pj6.jpg

3160 BC
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Buddhism FIDAL, worker starts mining a hill.

3120 BC
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Delhi grows to size 2, start settler.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5825/pic10eo8.jpg

2960 BC
-----------
Lots of animals around, but we survive them.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1240/pic11ka6.jpg

2760 BC
-----------

AH in, at least we have horses around. So does H.C. Start wheel.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2453/pic12mt1.jpg

2600 BC
------------

Meet Washington north of our border, Judaism FIDAL.

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/7260/pic13bq5.jpg

Start chopping forest, we want to place a city there.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3156/pic14nd1.jpg

2560 BC
------------

H.C. grabs that juicy site with elephants.

2520 BC
-----------

Settler is done. This is our part of the world. Best position for Bombay definitely spot where we just cut the forest, so we grab clam and fish and start generating scientists as soon as we get writing and library. We also don’t need a unit to escort that settler.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7209/pic15dz8.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 10:53 AM

So current plan is straightforward:

Settle site A.
Start fishing ->Writing->Alphabet.
Build some chariots to defend and explore.
---------

2480 BC
-----------

Settle Bombay, start monument. Warrior done in capital, start Barracks. Bombay will work horses for the time being, since capital can work hills. Both are same shield wise.

2440 BC
-----------

Powers of wheel discovered, start fishing.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7696/pic16vz3.jpg

2360 BC
-----------

Kill barb warrior, start building chariot. Start connecting resources, rice, hills, etc.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6926/pic17mo1.jpg

2240 BC
------------

Fishing discovered, start writing.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3294/pic18vp7.jpg

2200 BC
------------

A quick glance at our capital city.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4761/pic19jk7.jpg

Continuing with barracks before getting that chariot out. At size 4 Delhi will support all 3 hills and rice for a total of 10 shields and food surplus. Horses will help Bombay build library, until we assign scientists. Like I said, production is the most important thing early on, much more important than commerce. Needed research will be fueled by scientists, which is more than enough at this stage of a game. No cottages yet (and for quite a while after). Not that we passionately don’t want to, it’s just that we don’t need them, and is in fact detrimental to this strategy. Building cottages early on (like in capital) is usually not a good idea, unless in some very specific situations (i.e. all you have are food plains and 0 production). Earliest game period is when you work your resources, not cottages.

2160 BC
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Obelisk done, start workboat.

http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/4511/pic20bg4.jpg

2120 BC
-----------

Our warrior finally healed send him to explore west we know nothing about.

2000 BC
-----------

Delhi’s borders expand, there are two archers in Tiwanaku.

http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/1331/pic21uc7.jpg

1960 BC
-----------

Washington converts to Buddhism.

1880 BC
-----------

Delhi

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/6590/pic22kb9.jpg

…. and Bombay.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4852/pic23on6.jpg

Start warrior in capital for Bombay. Start another workboat in Bombay. Sending chariot from Delhi next to H.C.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/5561/pic24ot8.jpg

1800 BC
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Writing mastered, open borders with America and Inca land. Our brave warrior owned with multiple arrows.

1760 BC
-----------

Our chariot discovers only two archers and quencha in Incas capital. I don’t see metal around. You know what that means right?
If no metal around, AI has a tendency to protect his cities with only few archers until he gets longbows. This, we must take advantage of, even if it means sacrificing a ridiculous amounts of chariots.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3636/pic25tu4.jpg

1720 BC
-----------

Our capital skips library for now we need lots of chariots. HC has some troubles with barbs it seems. Juicy land that’s for sure.

http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/6310/pic26mz7.jpg

1600 BC
-----------

Start library in Bombay.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6696/pic27ot4.jpg

1400 BC
-----------

Buddha finally arrives in Delhi, switch immediately to Buddhism without penalty.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/143/pic28ub3.jpg

1000 BC
-----------

Somebody got owned by barbs pretty bad. I mentioned this before, playing with barbs turned on is actually easier for humans since we handle them fairly easy.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7724/pic29jc5.jpg

975 BC
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Library done in Bombay, assign two scientists for total of 12 gpp. This is where philosophical shines.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/9172/pic30qf2.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 10:54 AM

8 chariots standing by. We are going directly for capital, since it has horses and is center of Buddhism.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5347/pic31ey6.jpg

950 BC
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And so our first war begins. Axe barb showing up, but since this is warlord our chariots will eat them for breakfast. Chariot rush is actually very good strategy early if AI has no metal. But even if he does have metal, sometimes he has no spears in his border cities. If I spot that AI just connected his metal mine, ill declare with only one chariot and raze the mine, only to eventually conquer him with chariots (that is if I have horses to begin with; but rarely you don’t have both horses and bronze close to you, in which case its either beeline to Iron working or catapults). Chariots are not Immortals, but even tedious war with chariots vs. archers will pay off eventually and is better than letting AI connect his metal mine. Even though it might seem we got somewhat lucky here, this is not the beginning nor the end of this game.
-1 modifier with Mao since we declared on his buddy.

925 BC
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We lost lots of chariots but captured Cuzco. Kill barb axe.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3893/pic32cj1.jpg

875 BC
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Buddhism spread to Washington. Buddhism is the only active religion on this continent it seems that Gandhi is in control of it.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1255/pic33hc0.jpg

825 BC
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Alphabet in, quick glance over what other civs have reveals we are way behind technologically, which is expected, but we still have monopole over Alphabet. I decide to go for polytheism -> literature -> GL. It’s a gambit well worth of a try since we have a solid production in our capital. Washington in only one without mysticism so we trade him that for hunting. Mao has poly.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4563/pic34ut2.jpg

800 BC
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A noticeable change in a score of all civs forces me to open tech advisor again, and damn they all have alphabet!! Rofl. All except Mao. Which forces me to give him Alphabet for Iron Working and archery. At least we have Iron in our capitals fat cross. Open borders with Mao.
This is where noticeable difference between Emperor and Immortal level exists. In 800 BC all civs know Alphabet. It is very easy to fall behind technologically, and that’s why it is always better to start capturing AI cities rather than spamming your own. Even one extra city would hinder our tech research considerably. If you cant fight urge to over- expand, try OCC games for a while.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1928/pic35ey0.jpg

750 BC
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Cuzco after I whipped library.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/57/pic36wz0.jpg

We get our first GS in Bombay.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6989/pic37ht8.jpg

Capture Tiwanaku.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8859/pic38ld2.jpg

725 BC
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Mansa converts to Buddhism and we have complete domination of Buddhism on our continent. As much as this seems nice right now, it will be problem later on with all – modifiers from other civs on other continent(s) (i.e. you traded with our worst enemies etc), as I really plan to conquer the whole continent so all the civs around me are just temporary friends. Yeah, its exactly like in real life. Both Mao and Washington can attack me even if they are pleased with me and share same religion, so it doesn’t really matter that much. Still, not something you see often. I could definitely benefit from shrine here.

700 BC
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Get poly, start literature. Seems nobody has it, lets go for GL.

625 BC
---------

Ivory online, whip obelisk in Tiwanaku.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3373/pic39wf1.jpg

600 BC
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Capture Machu Picchu.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5010/pic40uc4.jpg

We get our first warlord.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9929/pic41iv0.jpg

HC down to one city but still doesn’t want to give Mathematics, which we get must before we chop virtually every pre chopped forest around Delhi.

500 BC
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We get literature. Nobody has it. I try to sue for peace + math again and H.C. agrees this time! If he didn’t do that I would be forced to pop Math with my scientist, which would actually pay off in the long run. I need to chop all that forest around Delhi, but I don’t want to do it for a double price. Thanks to my philosophical trait, wasting a scientist for math would not be such a big deal. Don’t get caught up in rules. It’s all situational.
A quick glance over our piece of land.
I choose to research drama. I want to pop philosophy with my scientist asap.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/328/pic42xg5.jpg

475 BC
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Give America poly for pottery.

450 BC
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Since HC shares our religion, he’s caution and gives us Meditation + Masonry for Alphabet. Ill want to capture that barb city before others do.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5944/pic43zc0.jpg

400 BC
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Cuzco builds our first sword. Attach warlord unit to it, so we can start H.E. in Delhi. Attaching warlord to chariot seems less attractive.
Start monastery so we can spread our religion even further.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7569/pic44uq6.jpg

375 BC
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Mansa demands literature, which of course is not happening at this point.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5858/pic45ej2.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 10:55 AM

I give CR1,CR2,CR3, leadership promotions to my sword.

Bombay will generate another GS next turn.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7552/pic46ie0.jpg

We need to spread Buddhism there to benefit from Pacifism.

350 BC
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Whip library in Machu P.
Trade Meditation to Washington for Priesthood.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4789/pic47ht1.jpg

300 BC
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We get GL in 300 BC.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7872/pic48jm8.jpg

250 BC
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Drama in.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8259/pic49no0.jpg

Pop philosophy and get Taoism in Bombay.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7510/pic50jh5.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4863/pic51ni4.jpg

Trade Drama + Literature to Mansa for Currency and 50 gold.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1071/pic52in8.jpg

Trade Drama to Washington for Monotheism + Sailing and 100 gold.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8199/pic53ff0.jpg

Switch to Pacifism at once without penalty. Our capital is generating some serious GS points now.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/2752/pic54qb0.jpg

Research set to construction and we can get it in 7.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1957/pic55mv3.jpg

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4087/pic56id4.jpg

This is the end of 1st part. Comments and suggestions on how to proceed are welcome.
We are dead last in power except HC, but thats ok. Once we get elephants and catapults, I plan on going after either Washington or Mansa (probably Mansa since Washington is not research powerhouse anymore in Warlords). He has scary power graph however.
As you see, the biggest difference between this level and emperor is early research power of AI. If you can match that, you are doing good. Everything else is pretty much the same (almost) as in Empror. Dumb AI on emperor is still as dumb on immortal. Aggression is the key, if no metal around, nor horses for horse archers, b-linefor catapults and/or elephants. You will have something to fight with early. I managed to get both GL and Tao, which is not uncommon IF you can get it early, as in 300 BC early. AI is fast to grab them, so dont overexpand if you dont need to.

aelf

Oct 26, 2006, 11:08 AM

This is very enlightening. Thanks!

Why don't you consider creating a Medic III unit with your GG? From my experience, it's usually worth more than a combat warlord unit, which tends to die.

Good job on keeping up in tech so far. But have you thought about the new patch and the changes to the AI? Do you think you can still keep up in Immortal after that?

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 11:22 AM

well, as much as id like that to be true i dont think theres going to be much differnce in a new patch, yeah city placement will be better, but commbat system and dumb ai will still be the same, well see, i cant say anything untill i play it.
medic is not a bad idea, but its more a luxury id consider if i were immperialistic

Jet

Oct 26, 2006, 01:01 PM

What did you do with the Taoist Missionary (I couldn't d/l all the screenshots)?

I'd probably build 2 temples in Delhi and hire 2 priests before doing anything else in Delhi. I figure if you get more scientists, great, if you get a prophet, also great. Do you have a plan for a shrine prophet?

Do you have a plan for the NE?

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 01:11 PM

taoist will spread tao to Delhi, which will get two temples,
Bombay same story,
in order to assign priests.

Since im philosophical i never build HE early.
Ive been toying with Iron.W. + forge + factory + NE in my previous games, very powerfull, thats what ill probably do now, depends
German UB is very good for this

Jet

Oct 26, 2006, 01:51 PM

Yeah, Bombay's better for the priests.

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 01:52 PM

You said "since we have no animals running around, start bronze working"

Could you explain this statement?

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 01:59 PM

Since im philosophical i never build HE early.
Ive been toying with Iron.W. + forge + factory + NE in my previous games, very powerfull, thats what ill probably do now, depends

I don't understand this either. What does philosophical have to do with Heroic Epic? What does the National Epic have to do with those other things?

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 02:07 PM

You said "since we have no animals running around, start bronze working"

Could you explain this statement?

Nevermind, I get it. No cows or sheep. No AH.

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 02:33 PM

I made a typo. We'r talking about National Epic not Heroic Epic.

When philosophical and when running Pacifism, National Epic is not very immportant, in fact its better without it since i always get GA from it somehow.

I sometimes like to build N.Epic in my high production city with Iron Works and generate GE's.

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 02:58 PM

I don't mean to come off like an idiot, but I'll do that in order to squeeze maximum benefit out of this thread for me.

It seemed like you chose the techs to research in terms of which would give you the next immediate benefit. Agriculture first because you had rice to farm (and no other resources) . So priority 1 is working the resource tile.

BW next because there were no other resources, but there were hills.

When BW failed to show copper, you were then forced to go for AH to reveal horses as a second best option. If BW had shown copper, you would not have researched AH at this time.

By the time you finished AH, you had a second city and horse resource to connect, so next comes the wheel. Then fishing for the fish, writing for the library/specialist, and alphebet to trade techs.

Now you can trade techs, so I assume the strategy shifts here. To what? To whatever the AI values most highly for trade?

And how do you know what techs the various great people can lightbulb? Through experience? Is there a chart somewhere showing this?

edit - you already had mining. So you didn't research BH to take advantage of hills but rather to show copper and acquire slavery. You consider this a top priority?

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 03:15 PM

Also, how did you raise that army? Did you have both cities producing Chariots and whipping in both too?

podraza

Oct 26, 2006, 03:17 PM

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 03:18 PM

I don't mean to come off like an idiot, but I'll do that in order to squeeze maximum benefit out of this thread for me.

lol, the only way to learn is to ask

It seemed like you chose the techs to research in terms of which would give you the next immediate benefit. Agriculture first because you had rice to farm (and no other resources) . So priority 1 is working the resource tile.

Yes, work whatever you have to work.
Early grow by working high food resource is priority.
Let's say I had pigs but no other resources. I would go directly for AH. (Actually I would reconsider that. By discovering Agriculture, you get cheaper AH. If my capital doesn’t require farms at all to work other resources, I would probably go directly to AH, otherwise Agriculture-> AH). Also farming is more expensive than making pasture.

BW next because there were no other resources, but there were hills.

I need my protection from barbs. Archery is the last option. Since I have mining already, and no animals (visible) to work, I prefer BW over AH.

When BW failed to show copper, you were then forced to go for AH to reveal horses as a second best option. If BW had shown copper, you would not have researched AH at this time.

Actually, I would still research AH even if I had copper. Because you need either AH or pottery to for Writing. AH is definitely better since I don’t need cottages/granaries and AH might reveal good strategic position for my next city.

By the time you finished AH, you had a second city and horse resource to connect, so next comes the wheel. Then fishing for the fish, writing for the library/specialist, and alphabet to trade techs.

Yes, you also need wheel for chariots.

Now you can trade techs, so I assume the strategy shifts here. To what? To whatever the AI values most highly for trade?

It depends. Since it was relatively early I decided I had a decent chance to go for literature and GL. Same for drama and Philosophy. I decided not to risk by going priesthood, CoL, as drama was cheaper. Plus I know nobody has drama since I’m the only one with literature.

And how do you know what techs the various great people can lightbulb? Through experience? Is there a chart somewhere showing this?

There’s a chart, i don’t have a link to it. You cant choose what to research, but you can influence it.
Since you wont be getting GS before math assuming you have all other low level techs, first it will choose to research mathematics. After you have mathematics, it will choose sailing, calendar, optics, something along those lines.
Unless, you have meditation + drama / CoL then it chooses philosophy.
Once you have Civil Service it chooses to research Paper->Education->Printing Press line, which is exactly what I intend to do here.

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 03:19 PM

Also, how did you raise that army? Did you have both cities producing Chariots and whipping in both too?

No whiping was needed

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 03:22 PM

And why didn't you build the GL in Bombay? Won't that be your super science city? At this point, do you have something in mind as to how to specialize Delhi and Bombay? Or any of the newly captured cities?

(I apologize for the rapid fire questions, I want to get them in before you move on to the next set)

(there will be more then, too)

i would never be able to build GL in bombay
and it will certainly not be a Super science city.

Delhi will obviously be my best production city once i get CS even more so.
Bombay will run as many specialists as it can (scientists, priests)

All new captured cities will be assigned at least scintists

As it seems i wont be ever building academys as well

Theres "edit" button you should consider before making another post :D

Minmaster

Oct 26, 2006, 03:49 PM

Murky

Oct 26, 2006, 04:17 PM

I take it the reason for the location of the 2nd city is so you gain access to more food resources?

patagonia

Oct 26, 2006, 06:25 PM

Interesting read so far - thanks for doing this.

I was just wondering why you built/whipped obelisks in some of the early cities? Especially Tiwankwu which already had religion for culture and Bombay where you subsequently built a library?

acidsatyr

Oct 26, 2006, 07:10 PM

Reason i built it in Bombay is because it had nothing better to build at the time, and to expand asap, and Tiwanaku same and to expand before Boston i think..
Location for Bombay was because of its food resources, perfect position, it doesn matter its close to capital, it will be long before they actually fight for a tile, if ever. Also horses will be shared among those two cities from time to time.

Paeanblack

Oct 26, 2006, 08:04 PM

do you usually build your 2nd city so close to the capitol? doesnt it limit their growth later in the game? i usually try to find the optimal placement so that the overlapping tiles are minimal. this is 3 tiles up/down/left/right and 1 tile diagonal in any direction. should i ditch this idea for success at higher levels?

Overlapping cities is a very powerful technique. If you are spacing your cities out early on, then space them slightly farther apart so you can squeeze more cities in the gaps later.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184240

voek

Oct 27, 2006, 03:51 AM

Strong opening. Good thing you have taken upon this 'challenge'. I know you are a (critical) strong Immortal player. The placement of the second city is one I wonder if I would have done this, although I think it is the right decision.

The research and expansion path at the cost of the Inca seems obvious. You had horses and no room and he had not metals.

I am curious however, why you didn't trade the precious alphabet away to backfill before they got it, and they did. True about the difference with Emperor, the AI realy sets of in the beginning. I thought it was amazing when I first saw it and was just staring at the screen when I found out the actualy got alphabet before I did...

I can see you want to prevent them from techtrading and running for the GL, but still. Like what has happend there is a good chance one of them will get it soon. It will net you some nice techs and you can always embargo one or two potential near victims or strategical enemy's. Next to that literature isnt very high on the AI list anyway. Would like to know your reasoning behind this.

Lucky on the capturing of a dominant religion from your continent. The shrine will be huge. Recommend signing some priest to get a GP asap. The shrine will help spreading without the need of monasteries. The faster the spread the less chance they will get a religion of their own and adopt it soon. The coin is nice of course.

Interesting choise with the GS. Why no Academy, but popping for Phi? I know it has good trading value and not saying it is a bad decision, just wondering, cause I think this is a difficult choise early on.

Next path, construction is very obvious. You will have cats and elephants. Consider generating one more GP for theology for the extra XP. No anarchy anyway.

slowcar

Oct 27, 2006, 05:44 AM

Very nice to watch you play, i enjoyed your SGs a lot, too.

do you usually build your 2nd city so close to the capitol? doesnt it limit their growth later in the game? [...] should i ditch this idea for success at higher levels?

The later game is not important until very late :p
The second city has two high valued seafood ressources -> lots of food -> lots of GPs. In fact a nearly perfect 2nd city for a philosophical leader.

I have one question though too:
Why didn't you let Bombay grow one size before assigning the two scientists? It seemed to be only one round from growing and could have worked a high-food tile.

aelf

Oct 27, 2006, 09:59 AM

I think using Pacifism is something I could learn about. Do you like to use it? What are the situations in which you won't use it?

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 10:18 AM

sylvanllewelyn

Oct 27, 2006, 11:13 AM

What I really like about this guide is that it uses very standard, normal development that a player on noble difficulty would use anyway, but just executed with precison (except for the alphabet part). No beelining, no UU and no traits that ask for building around.

I do have a few questions though:
a) Why do you insist on scientists and the Great Library, when your cities clearly have enough food to run cottages? Is it because of the philosophical trait, great scientists to pop techs to keep your tech up to AI levels? If it's high population for production, then you have neither, and you don't have the happiness to increase population anyway. If it's for beakers, then I don't see how you could eventually get liberalism and astronomy with just scientists. You don't have pyramids, so you aren't running representation either. Must be missing something.
b) That was a lot of dead chariots. How did you handle the WW from losing 8 units straight in enemy territory? I do notice that WW seems to be a lot weaker in the earlier years, but was that your intention? What's the functional relationship between the year and WW?
c) Why the rush to philosophy and pacifism? Because your neighbours are so close to you, my next step would've been to research horseback riding and attack American cities with HA. Of course at this point catapults and elephants are the way to go, and sounds Indian enough. But how does pacifism help your conquest?

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 11:30 AM

Yes, please explain your plan for the economy. I've gathered from other writings that you prefer the specialist or hybrid/specialist economy. Is this your strategy in most games, or unique to this one given the philosophical trait?

DuseCutter

Oct 27, 2006, 11:41 AM

Seems to me that early on, you benefit more by having a scientist specialist than working a cottage. An automatic 3 beakers.

Once you give your city time to grow past working resources, you use that extra population to start maturing cottages for a supplemental cottage economy.

In other words, scientists start strong and give an better transition to a cottage based economy.

aelf

Oct 27, 2006, 11:56 AM

Lightbulbing is the key here. It's very important on higher levels and the GS is the best at it.

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 12:24 PM

Lightbulbing is the key here. It's very important on higher levels and the GS is the best at it.

What do you know about this? I don't know anything about lightbulbing and its inner workings. Is there a FAQ or strategy thread on this somewhere?

playshogi

Oct 27, 2006, 12:33 PM

What do you know about this? I don't know anything about lightbulbing and its inner workings. Is there a FAQ or strategy thread on this somewhere?

It's in the war academy:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gp_tech_pref.php

aelf

Oct 27, 2006, 12:52 PM

What do you know about this? I don't know anything about lightbulbing and its inner workings. Is there a FAQ or strategy thread on this somewhere?

Basically, lightbulbing might allow you to get certain techs to enjoy their benefits earlier (eg. running Pacifism early for more great people by lightbulbing Philosophy). It also gives you a cutting edge tech (for that period) as a very valuable bargaining chip when doing tech trading. This is even better if you get to Liberalism first by lightbulbing Education with a GS, in which case you get another expensive tech 'free'. Without the GS' help, the AI on Emperor and above can easily beat you to Liberalism.

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 01:03 PM

It's in the war academy:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gp_tech_pref.php

Thanks, that looks like a very helpful list that everybody should be familiar with. (maybe I am the only one who isn't :blush: )

acidsatyr

Oct 27, 2006, 02:42 PM

I am curious however, why you didn't trade the precious alphabet away to backfill before they got it, and they did. True about the difference with Emperor, the AI realy sets of in the beginning. I thought it was amazing when I first saw it and was just staring at the screen when I found out the actualy got alphabet before I did...
I can see you want to prevent them from techtrading and running for the GL, but still. Like what has happend there is a good chance one of them will get it soon. It will net you some nice techs and you can always embargo one or two potential near victims or strategical enemy's. Next to that literature isnt very high on the AI list anyway. Would like to know your reasoning behind this.

Thats exaclty the reason. I was keeping in mind an option of going for GL. So even tought they dont put literature on very high priority, they grab all ealry techs easy, and still get literature early. Generaly speaking, i dont want to give away Alphabet if im first one to it! As soon as i see one of them got it, i will trade it away. I think its adventageous to keep them away from trading with each other, even if its a turn or two.

Interesting choise with the GS. Why no Academy, but popping for Phi? I know it has good trading value and not saying it is a bad decision, just wondering, cause I think this is a difficult choise early on.

No academy since i dont have powerfull ealry scientific city. They are all around there somewhere. I get in better position by poping techs than ny building academy in this case. Hopefully ill be able to show that.
If one of my cities had more than 40 beakers pullin in (having gold or other high coin resources), i would be more incline to create academy.
Philosophy gives me powerful ealry pacifism, has excelent trading value, and gives me Tao. All in the order of significance.

Next path, construction is very obvious. You will have cats and elephants. Consider generating one more GP for theology for the extra XP. No anarchy anyway.

I am playing my next set of turns already. Unfortunatelly (or not!), i got 4 more GS and no prophet. But thats expected since capital and Bombay are really putting in lots of scientist points, and i did want to concentrate on getting GS in this one. I wont be concentrating on getting GP in this game.

acidsatyr

Oct 27, 2006, 02:46 PM

I have one question though too:
Why didn't you let Bombay grow one size before assigning the two scientists? It seemed to be only one round from growing and could have worked a high-food tile.

I dont undestand this sorry.
It was limited to size 3 because of happines limit , it worket total of 6 food for stgnation and two scientists. Thats what you mean?

acidsatyr

Oct 27, 2006, 02:56 PM

It seems like the strategy, at least for this particular game, is focused around producing great people.

Why?

To lightbulb techs?

Is this just one strategy among many, or is this the only way to keep up on Immortal?

No, its not the only way to win. But being philosophical really puts me in the mood for this kind of a game. I can easily match research with my scientists rather than working cottages.
We’ll see how it goes later in the game.
Later the choice becomes more crucial. But this early in the game, isn’t it more advantageous to work that all that seafood and get scientists? Where would you put cottages anyway, and why?
Don’t get me wrong, take what you got; if I had my capital surrounded by flood plains id probably put down a cottage or two, in addition to my scientists. But in this case it would be a shame to restrict my capitol’s awesome production potential to so I can build cottages.
Generally I will be concentrating one getting great people here, yes.
Even later in the game as you’ll see I would be aksing question : "Is this tile a good place for a farm", rather than more usual, "Is this a good tile for cottage?"

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 03:04 PM

Murky

Oct 27, 2006, 03:04 PM

In warlords, I always seem to get atleast one neighbor with the protective trait and they love to settle hilltops. How do you deal with this?

acidsatyr

Oct 27, 2006, 03:04 PM

What I really like about this guide is that it uses very standard, normal development that a player on noble difficulty would use anyway, but just executed with precison (except for the alphabet part). No beelining, no UU and no traits that ask for building around.

I do have a few questions though:
a) Why do you insist on scientists and the Great Library, when your cities clearly have enough food to run cottages? Is it because of the philosophical trait, great scientists to pop techs to keep your tech up to AI levels? If it's high population for production, then you have neither, and you don't have the happiness to increase population anyway. If it's for beakers, then I don't see how you could eventually get liberalism and astronomy with just scientists. You don't have pyramids, so you aren't running representation either. Must be missing something.

well stay tuned in cause i will be first one to liberalism.

b) That was a lot of dead chariots. How did you handle the WW from losing 8 units straight in enemy territory? I do notice that WW seems to be a lot weaker in the earlier years, but was that your intention? What's the functional relationship between the year and WW?

who cares about dead chariots when I got Incas capital? Im sure they were all proud to die for it...

c) Why the rush to philosophy and pacifism? Because your neighbours are so close to you, my next step would've been to research horseback riding and attack American cities with HA. Of course at this point catapults and elephants are the way to go, and sounds Indian enough. But how does pacifism help your conquest?

i asnwered that already. I want pacifism asap. One scientist is ~ 1600 beakers.
Philo. is ~ 1300. 300 beakers is nothing since ill be pullin in ~ 1000 later on per turn i hope.

acidsatyr

Oct 27, 2006, 03:08 PM

So you're saying the use of specialists in Bombay is largely the result of geography?

You only have limited population points allowed at this point, so in the capital, you want to use them up working maximium production. No cottages here.

In Bombay, which is not a productio center, you could work cottages, but where? There isn't much land available to Bombay, so better work the scientists who don't require a tile?

Thats right, i wanted to get my first couple os scientists somewhere as soon as i get my first library. Bombay was perfect for this. No place, not reason to work cottages that early in my case.

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 03:09 PM

This is great. Can't wait for the next installment.

Lucky Charms

Oct 27, 2006, 04:34 PM

Pretty good report acidsatyr. I like all the pictures too. When will the next installment be in?

Also, do you have any idea what victory condition you're going for?

And finally, what are your goals for the next round?

mice

Oct 27, 2006, 04:35 PM

Just checking in to say this thread is amazing. Great use of screenies and short comments.I want more more more.:)

cleverhandle

Oct 27, 2006, 04:50 PM

Excellent thread and reporting, acidsatyr. Thank you.

podraza

Oct 27, 2006, 05:14 PM

Guys, knock it off. There's only room for one acidsatyr sycophant around here.

Jorunkun

Oct 27, 2006, 08:07 PM

Righty on, Acidsatyr! Thanks for taking the pains to post this, esp all those screenies.

One thing I wanted to comment on, because it resonated with one key learning in moving up to Immortal: Leverage your strengths, radically. In this case this meant going for all-out scientists because of traits, and spamming chariots with three workable mines and horse/no bronze for strat ressources.

Loved this opening because it is so minimalist and plays exclusively to these two strengths, with no regard for second best, "also nice to have" options like cottages. Same story for founding 2nd city so close to the capital, and stopping there, to achieve that short term goal of making the chariot rush succeed. Excellent lesson in staying focused on key strategy elements, rather than doing a little bit of everything.

One thing I will be watching for is when and how you will begin to ramp up your economy in the mid-game, i.e. what improvements you build where and when you begin to bring in cottages ... if you could, please provide some screens or explanative here.

Looking forward to the next update.

acidsatyr

Oct 28, 2006, 06:48 PM

Ok guys 2nd part.

[continuing 250 BC – 1370 AD]

250 BC
----------

Same year I finished part 1, but with some micromanagement.

Cuzco gets scientist. Still take 4 turns to build missionary.
This allows slider us to get Construction in 6.
Bombay starts temple.

225 BC
----------
Tao missionary spreads Tao to Delhi.
Give literature + drama to H.C. for Calendar + 40.

200 BC
---------
Sword done. Before I do anything else here, we need another worker from capital.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7159/pic1ar0.jpg

Tiwanaku finishes library, starts granary.
It gets two scientists and I lower slider to 80%.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9141/pic2mc7.jpg

150 BC
---------
Cuzco finishes missionary, starts granary.
I move in on the barb city, lots of Mansas units showing to take it out. I want those resources.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1299/pic3di2.jpg

Notice H.C. converted to Taoism.
I ask 110 from Mao he agrees.

125 BC
---------

Christianity founded. Capture barb city.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2161/pic4uw9.jpg

100 BC
---------

Construction in, start CoL (done in 5). Washington has Metal Casting but doesn’t want to trade it away yet.

Worker is done in capital, start H.E. I give Mansa fish + sheep in exchange for his Marble and 1 gpt, so I can finish it in 8 turns instead of 16. I don’t need extra two health points at the moment.

25 BC
--------

Whip granary in Tiwanaku

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6148/pic5uq8.jpg

1 AD
-------

Bombay can now assign priest.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6462/pic6ft9.jpg

We get GS in Delhi next turn.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4378/pic7bu4.jpg

25 AD
--------

CoL is in. I decide to go for Civil service.
I demand 50 from HC and he gives of course.
I need to build courthouses asap in all cities as I maintenance is slowing me down a bit.

50 AD
---------
I can bribe Mao to go after Washington for Philosophy + Monotheism, but I don’t really want to do that as he could crush him in 3 turns.

75 AD
---------

HE done. Start build Elephants and cats, ill build infrastructure later.
They all have Theology, but only Mansa wants to trade it. Unfortunately I can only give him Philosophy which is nearly double the price of Theology. I don’t want to do that. Another thing is, all my cities run specialists so pacifism makes more sense, even if Im paying more gpt. I gladly give more money for running pacifism.
Most of them have Monarchy. Can I run a war before they all get longbows?

200 AD
---------
I got yet another scientist in Bombay. I have 3 now doing nothing.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6775/pic8na3.jpg

I give monotheism to Mao for 130.
Give Mansa Philosophy + 40 for Horse Raiding and Metal Casting. Fair trade.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2133/pic9ow1.jpg

Since I did that, price of Philosophy drops considerably, and I give it to Washington for Theocracy + 40. I switch immediately to Theocracy, and now I can increase research slider a bit.
If I was not spiritual, I would really consider going out of Pacifism. Sometimes I like to stay in Pacifism for a very long time, even if it means paying more gpt.

Back to scientists story. Now that I have Theocracy, I can pop paper with one of them, and completely research Education with two. So I can get education in 200 AD, or much faster if I went for, or traded theocracy earlier. With cheap universities I could increase my research even more. Not to mention Liberalism is right there, I can get it very early in fact. All that is not really necessary as all my cities have other stuff to do ATM, i just wanted to mention that.
I will manually research paper.
Notice we have stone, so University of Sangkhore (sp?) is really good idea. Research bonus from all cheap temples and bonus for scientist gpp, just the way we like it.

225 AD
---------

I get my first catapult in Delhi. I skip forge for now since I can get 4 - 5 elephants for it. It is also unnecessary at this point, it would be overkill.
Washington got hold on Machinery.
Forgot to mention, now that HE is done, I canceled that marble deal, and got my fish and sheep back.
Quick look at Cuzco.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2298/pic10ef5.jpg

250 AD
----------
I decide to whip a few catapults in Tiwanaku.

350 AD
---------
Whipping of cats continues in Tiwanaku, Delhi build elephants mostly. I really want to attack while I still have a chance.
Machu Picchu whips courthouse.
I beg 120 from Mao, he agrees this time.
Every bit of cash ultimately helps no matter how trivial it might seem.
I start moving my stack toward Washington, while he still has archers. He is totally surrounded by Mao, and is weakest. I really can’t declare on Mansa or Mao, ill never be able to get enough units quickly.

425 AD
---------

Ok, so Civil Service in, switch civics. Nobody will give me machinery for Civil Service, as expected. I am setting research to paper. Ill get machinery later.
Finally whipped courthouse in Bombay.

520 AD
---------
Cuzco ….

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7855/pic11ez5.jpg

…..
and Delhi

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2472/pic12kx5.jpg

540 AD
---------
And so I declare on Washington. All major cities already unhappy. Damn I didn’t do anything yet. I whip market in Tiwanaku, but raise culture by 10% as I don’t want to touch Delhi and Cuzco.

Washington went for machinery - > Engineering, delaying Longbows and that will cost him.
Interestingly that red face in Delhi disappeared next turn, and i got temple in Cuzco, so youll see my culture slider is at 0% again next turn.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1043/pic13bw8.jpg

Take out Boston and collect 83.

One of my chariots that was sent to automatic explore (totally forgot about him) got owned pretty bad by pike.

580 AD
---------

Yet another scientists born in Delhi.

620 AD
----------

Paper in. I set to Education (very far 38 turns away).
BUT, since I 4 scientists not doing a damn thing, a burn 2 of them for whole Education.
Lets see, education costs 2925 beakers. Two scientists give a total of 3210 beakers (or 1605 each).
I *wasted* 285 beakers.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1295/pic14kv7.jpg

I set research to Liberalism (29).
That’s is 29 with no cash to invest. As I capture cities, ill move the slider up.

640 AD
----------
Mansa wants sugar for marble. Don’t need marble right now.
Capture New York.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1166/pic15pl3.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 28, 2006, 06:49 PM

660 AD
----------
Give combat I to Warlord unit.
Start U.of S. before I start University.
With forge, stone, and organized religion (I switched) Ill get it in 10 turns.

720 AD
----------
Stack in front of Washinton. It has longbows and is on a hill. I will have to suicide some extra catapults.
Notice Mao has elephants, trebs, etc. I really hope he doesn’t do anything foolish here.
They all advanced nicely trough monarchy -> feudalism and machinery-> eng. tree, i can hardly beat them there, so I go middle path, i.e. CS -> paper -> Education -> liberalism. This is what I do lot of times when I play immortal. The choice of my tech path and my strategy is not necessarily the best, but it works, and more importantly if changes from situation to situation. You cant have same strategy every time.
So far research power is doing me more than fine.
All the farms I have really allow me to whip units if I desire so, and grow them back in no time.

Heres trade advisor.

740 AD
----------
Mansa wants paper for compass. Not until I’m done with U. of S.
Strip down Washington of its culture defenses.
Can we get GP here? Probably not.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9636/pic16tj7.jpg

760 AD
----------
Nope, another GS.
Captured Washington, I had to suicide few catapults.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6603/pic17nv4.jpg

Whipped that forge in Cuzco.
Now that i took Americas core cities, I sue for peace and monarchy. Other cities are north, beyond Maos borders, and I don’t want them, yet.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6420/pic18bu1.jpg

Instead, ill try to heal and finish off H.C. while I still can fight somewhat with swords, and before he gets to be someone’s vassal.

780 AD
----------
Both Cuzco and Machu Picchu start Universities.
New York gets courthouse.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6290/pic19cb8.jpg

N. Dame built somewhere.

800 AD
----------
Mao borders really swallowing my new cities.
I give him bananas for 7 gpt.
Washington was pleased with me +6 sharing religion, - 3 declared war. He convents to Tao, and now I cant trade with him.

820 AD
----------
Maybe Mansa is not technologically most advanced…

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3206/pic20rx7.jpg

840 AD
---------
Tiwanaku starts University.

860 AD
---------
After whipped lighthouse, start University as well.

880 AD
----------
U. of S. finally built, this will help our research a bit.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3310/pic21sl9.jpg

Delhi – granary -> University.
Islam is founded in Wallata. Is Mansa going to switch to Islam? That would be a serious problem.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4485/pic22vu1.jpg

I switch to Heredity Rule and back to Pacifism.

920 AD
----------
Whip university in Cuzco.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2811/pic23yf4.jpg

960 AD
----------
1 turn to liberalism.
Mansa in only one willing to trade.
Available to me are compass, Feudalism, Machinery, D. Right, world map, 140.
Best deal I can squeeze out is Feudalism + Machinery + 140 + World Map, for Education. That’s what I do.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6382/pic24rv3.jpg

Two reasons I do that. First, if Mansa ever converts to Islam, I loose all my chances for any trade. Second, I want to upgrade for free my sword to Mace. Three, theres three… follows up!

980 AD
----------
Ok so we won liberalism race.
What next?
Given our situation, lets try something different. Definitely not the most expansive tech – gunpowder – but that’s not point anyway!

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9549/pic25mw6.jpg

My strategy is not necessarily the best one, but it sure is interesting, and Im sure it will work. I just want to stimulate new ideas here.
Ok so now what? We are about same in technology with Mansa, which is pretty good at this level and point in the game, I think. I choose to research Printing Press.
And heres why. I will use my two scientists to pop it! That’s right once again im going to get whipped for this. But well see if it pays of at the end. By giving in two scientists ~ 3200, for P.Press (2600 beakers), i waste 600, or half a scientist. Again, not a big deal if you ask me, considering we are philosophical. Always weight your advantages vs. disadvantages.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4660/pic26fc6.jpg

I still have one sitting in my city, and Delhi is about to spit out another one!
So what’s the point behind this?
To get asap to grenadiers!

And so P.P is in. This is what I can trade with Mansa.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3991/pic27dc0.jpg

Now, i don’t want to trade any of those two. I want to keep hold on gunpowder for as long as i can, and Mansa is known for adopting Free Religion rather fast, so I don’t want that either. I have to wait a turn before I can trade away P.P. however.
All this would be a little easier if I didn’t have a research monster as my first neighbor., and if i has somebody else to trade with, not tight ass Mao or Washington.
Ho-kay, so…. I set my research to say, Nationalism. My next idea after getting grenadiers is getting Representation.

One of the questions that naturally you might have is, why not go for Cavalry!?. Because it would take me MUCH more time to get to them, and they are not as versatile as grenadiers. I want to upgrade my warlord to grenadier. Also, chemistry is prereq for steel, which I want to get to fast as well. Military tradition doesn’t get me anywhere. Its not a bad choice, but ill go with grenadiers this time.

Maos power looks scary.
I was ready to attack H.C. but i won’t. I will save my energy for somebody else.
Last minute decision.

1000 AD
-----------
I give Mansa P.P. for Engineering + compass + world map + 20. Solid deal, Eng. + compass is ~ 2300 beakers.
I start building trebs.

1020 AD
-----------
Finally, one foxy lady in the game. Top score, but not far away.
I give Mao old philosophy.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7788/pic28pd8.jpg

Then I trade paper away for optics. (Same amount of beakers, but i need some cash to match it of course).

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1086/pic29xq6.jpg

Now I pop chemistry with my 2 GS. Chemistry costs 2950, same story as education. Im flying trough this research tree with my GSs.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/327/pic30jt5.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 28, 2006, 06:49 PM

Now that pacifism helped me get another GS, I switch to Theocracy.

There is one problem, only my capital is strong production city, no mountains anywhere else basically. Can i get lots of units fast? I sure can if I WHIP! This will stagnate my research for a bit, but a promise of a new land makes my people happy.
I hope you see some advantages of Spiritual and Philosophical trait by now, as well as high food cities with lots of farms.
I am still not falling behind technologically, in fact I’m first.
Can I hold this position until Biology/Republic, when my economy skyrockets again?
I start grenadiers in most of my cities.
This is normal speed, and speed is essential, Epic would be much easier. Every turn is very important.

1070 AD
-----------

I give Cathy P.P. for Guilds and some extra cash.
Mao becomes Master of H.C, as expected, since my power grows rapidly.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2395/pic31fg2.jpg

Score stagnates because we are killing a lot of people after all, but power graph seems rather promising.

1120 AD
----------

Enough units to declare next turn.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/750/pic32oc7.jpg

I close borders with mansa.
Last trading with him in this game, give him Liberalism for some cash and banking.
Lets look at power graph. Looks fine for now.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1542/pic33ic7.jpg

1130 AD
-----------

Declare on Mansa. To ensure that Mansa doesn’t bribe Mao and HC to go after me, I get there first !

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4377/pic34ft9.jpg

I feel more secured knowing Mao wont backstab me while im backstabbing Mansa.

1140 AD
-----------

Mansa attack from all sides, first attack is toughest one, but we live .
I see HC sending lots of units.
Ok, take out Walata.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9338/pic35yf2.jpg

It has Masjid al-Haram, but only brings in 3 gpt.
Cathy gets to nationalism first.

1150 AD
-----------

Units take a break and heal in Wallata.
Mansa switches to Free religion, Free speech, and Vassalage.
Mao sends a stack of two units, elephant and Chokono , can you believe this guy?

1160 AD
-----------
We meet Ragnar and Lui.
Cathy demands world map I refuse (she demanded education a while ago i refused), she has a lot on (in) her hands now, but no astronomy yet. I m safe for now.

1180 AD
-----------
Take out Tadmekka.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3196/pic36gj2.jpg

Lots of units coming from both Mao and HC now. Gao will go to Mao it seems.
I get another Warlord. I will build mace in Delhi, give him CR,1,2 then attach to get grenadier. I like this better than +25% production or +2 exp. BTW I got another GS in Bombay despite 50%-50% for Prophet. Crap!. Shrine would really help me now.

1200 AD
-----------

Picture says it all.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/575/pic37nw5.jpg

I reconfigure most of my cities and assign scientists and merchants.
I do a lot of healthy pillaging with my pike near Gao.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4651/pic38an4.jpg

1240 AD
-----------

Now that i took out capital, i split up units in two parts,

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/954/pic39wo6.jpg

i need to get as many cities as i can before Mao. He brought mostly all of his units to the front.

1250 AD
------------
I tell Mao to stop fighting Mansa.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8673/pic40xp3.jpg

Two reasons, he will take out more valuable cities. Second, if Mansa agrees to become Maos vassal state, i will automatically get peace, and im practically done for good. Maos huge army is right there next to me but at least i have good relations with him.
Im not making any units and all my trade routes are internal since Mao is using mercantilism. I switch to Mercantilism and Organized Religion (again no penalty, how nice is that! Very flexible.). Mansa has grenadiers now, but too late for that.

1280 AD
------------
Take out Djenne.

1290 AD
------------
We get GP finally, and it nets us +15 gpt, not bad.

1300 AD
-------------
Wow look at the Maos culture at Gao.
And units. That’s number of units in all of his cities.
Cathy has Astronomy and still locked in I have a lot in my hands….

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1469/pic42wq1.jpg

1340 AD
-----------
GS born in Delhi.
Switch to Representation, set research to steel. I want to get as far ahead of Mao militaristically, as possible.

1360 AD
------------
Cathy closes borders, shes pissed!

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2105/pic43qw1.jpg

Start Oxford in Cuzco (20 turns).

1370 AD
------------
Mansa down to one city ( i captured others in the meantime Im not going to show pic for every one of them), i get economics from him and peace.

Cities get out of unhappiness, research look good, cities will grow back easily. I got two scientists standing by. I will use both of them later to research scientific method (~ 3700 out of 3900 beakers).
Heres the inside of major cities.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6855/pic44pp7.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2139/pic45xx4.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7258/pic46om6.jpg

acidsatyr

Oct 28, 2006, 06:50 PM

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9896/pic47uv6.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5056/pic48kw8.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9355/pic49ed2.jpg

And this is where i stop this time.

Power graph.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4861/pic50td6.jpg

And trade advisor.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5271/pic51as8.jpg

I am still holding on technologically.

Basically, none of them has Constitution, except Mansa.
And Mao lacks Liberalism, Gunpowder, and Nationalism. So No Chemistry either.
I plan to get some cannons, and slowly but surely take him out. See his power graph, ridiculous amount of units, mostly mounted.
As far as my research rate goes, i plan to further increase it by switching to caste system, and going in and out of pacifism.

There’s some micromanagement to can done but I’m too lazy.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4052/pic52kw5.jpg

End of this part.

Before i finish, i just want to make couple of comments.
Like i said before, there are more than one ways to play this game.
I could’ve went for a more cottage oriented game, but, since i really wanted to get maximum from my trait i decided to concentrate on specialists. I know a lot of you especially wont like what i did with my GSs, but i wanted to show some fresh ideas, and this is just one of the strategies that really worked nice in this game so far. I also wanted to show that you don’t have to be financial and use cottages spamming strategy every time to win. Its about understanding game mechanics. Your civ doesn’t exist independently of all other civs.
Like I said before, its not all black and white, weight your advantages and disadvantages. Not every game can be played exactly the same way.

asabahi

Oct 29, 2006, 12:42 AM

Just one question. It seems you have room to grow your cities further, at least as far as happiness is concerned, so why not let them do so?

kniteowl

Oct 29, 2006, 01:23 AM

Just one question. It seems you have room to grow your cities further, at least as far as happiness is concerned, so why not let them do so?

he's running a Specialist Economy without using cast system so the number of Specialist he can assign is limited to the number allowed for every building he constructs.

As far as I can see he's not assigning any Artist, probably because he doesn't want one so he's limited by the 2 Scientist from a Library, 2 Merchants from a Market and so many Priest allowed by Temples and Religion.

If he grows Beyond the number of Specialist he can assign they'd be useless citizens doing nothing... well nothing useful like adding GPP.

mice

Oct 29, 2006, 03:15 AM

If he grows Beyond the number of Specialist he can assign they'd be useless citizens doing nothing... well nothing useful like adding GPP.

But useful like making production, mines etc. The low pop is from all the whipping isnt it? Where did all those grenadiers come from?

slowcar

Oct 29, 2006, 09:31 AM

lucky with catherine being on the other side of the ocean - the AI is really lacking in oversea wars.

i am looking forward to watch you crush maos monsterstacks, hopefully after he upgraded his cho-ku-nos to something without collateral :)

do you plan to go after him with cannons and grenadiers?

But useful like making production, mines etc. The low pop is from all the whipping isnt it? Where did all those grenadiers come from?
due to the whip a food is more valuable then a hammer, at least until a certain city size.
whipping armies works very well with a SE because, as mentioned, you don't need your cities that big anyhow as long as they can't support more specialists (merchants+scientists) and with all the farms they can regrow in no time. and when whipping an army you can get a good number of advanced forces in a short period of time, much needed because immortal AI gets the upgrades nearly for free

mutax2003

Oct 29, 2006, 12:04 PM

It has been an interesting read so far. Typical I like to cottage spam, but guess I will have to rethink my strategy, maybe a SE or hybrid economy will prove more effective for higher level and online games.

voek

Oct 30, 2006, 05:05 AM

Interesting (ab)use of the GS. Normally one would consider wasting those beakers a sin, but I can see the need for grenadiers fast. Great focussing, I think that's is the most important lesson of this game. It's normal speed so grenadiers a few turns sooner might be well worth the *loss* of beakers. I do not agree on the attachment of the Warlord however. But maybe this is because you don't have one big unit producer, but several whip city's. I can't tell from here. But in case there is one big producer I think the +2exp is better. 25% doesn't cut it, maybe the 50% after the patch does.

Interesting to see how you are going to do against Mao. I guess good use of canons and superior units will decimate his stacks quit fast. Only problem is you also have to deal with Huayna which gives you a huge frontline.

Aiming for Space or going to try a invasion after the continent is owned?

Eggolas

Oct 30, 2006, 09:29 AM

Great game so far. I really like the way you leverage the traits and work with the available geography. The explanations of the diplomacy and trading are very interesting. I'm not sure I'd have thought of bribing Mao to halt hostilities, but I see the need to do so.

Spiritual: Your use of the trait really highlights its power in the higher level games. While it is somewhat unappreciated in Monarch and below (except as Mansa I would guess), the importance here to your tactics can't be any clearer.

Philosophical: Synergy a plenty here, although I never saw it before. I'm beginning to have a greater appreciation for the game designers. :) As well as your Immortal playing skill.

Grenadiers: In looking at your pictures of the Grenadiers with 5 pts xp, I noticed that they didn't have promotions. Did you promote them prior to their first battles? How did you promote them (CR2/3)?

slowcar

Oct 30, 2006, 10:21 AM

Eggolas

Oct 30, 2006, 10:24 AM

Grenadiers can't get CR, too bad. And city assault troops should be promoted right before they attack, if they get collateral damage beforehand they can heal it this way and you can choose the promotions to counter the enemy unit.

Duh! I'll remember that next time I upgrade my maces to grenadiers. :)

I had not thought about healing collateral damage prior to attack with the promotions. Thanks for the tip.

crashnation

Oct 31, 2006, 01:01 AM

I'm "always lost in emporer" player. I tried to follow same tech tree in emporer, as a result, I managed to get tech lead. I lead printing press,astronomy,liberalism. But I couldn't setup early attack, so I had smaller land , weaker power than AI. It means that I can't have enough beaker for research, So I forced to trade constitution with mansa, it made mansa super tech leader. Anyway, was very cool. If I could setup early war, and If I receive GS,GE instead of 3 GA ( I used them lightbulb DEMOCRACY)......

Very good Post. Thanks alot.

JaK23

Oct 31, 2006, 03:45 AM

Amazing Thread, Amazing Game!

Once joined just to :clap: and say :thanx: for your discussion thread. I like the way you play and much more the way you explain your strategy.
A+++!!!

Looking forward for the next part and I hope this isn't your last discussion game in here.
One of the best i've ever read.

Arrian

Oct 31, 2006, 11:28 AM

A question springs to mind after reading part I:

Bombay took the horses tile (automatically when the city was founded, because it was directly adjacent) from Delhi and it appears Bombay worked it for a while... but the screenshot you took of Bombay using 2 scientist specialists shows the horses tile still under Bombay's control but not being worked. Did you switch the horses tile back to Delhi during the time when you ran the 2 scientists in Bombay? I hope so... it was for some time the stongest land tile your empire had...

-Arrian (still reading)

edit: ah, a screenie in part II clearly shows Delhi working the horse tile. That answers that.

Good game. Very aggressive, very focused. Much heavier use of great people than I've ever done. A lot more tech trading, too, which makes perfect sense on this level of play, whereas on Prince I often avoid trading stuff to the AI - alphabet in particular - to preserve my tech lead. On immortal it's "tech lead? what tech lead?" for most of the game, I imagine.

LosBlack

Oct 31, 2006, 02:41 PM

almost every pic shows you running a large deficit to keep research as high as possible. do you find that you can ask for/demand enough gold to keep you above zero most of the time? sure conquering cities and pillaging helps, but i saw once or twice you were pretty low on the science percentage. do you work on the idea that you keep your science as high as you can for as long as you can, then suck it up when you're out of cash? some other method to the madness?

also noticed (i think) that you built your initial chariot rush without barracks. is this just because you saw the opportunity to attack and didn't want to miss the window? you figured most of the chariots are going to eat it anyways? barracks aren't really necessary that early? i'm curious; i rarely build any attacking units (excepting warriors) before i have a barracks.

Woobi

Oct 31, 2006, 02:45 PM

acidsatyr

Oct 31, 2006, 07:46 PM

Chariot rush was done with baracks built.

Most of the cash problems early was due to not having corthouses built, once you have them they really save you lots of money.
(Philosophical + organized is awsome combo in fact even better with patch, you can really focus on great people but you dont need cottages as in phil+financial).

I'm kinda busy these days, i will definatelly finish this game as soon as i have more time.

thx for reading guys

btw now that patch is out can i update my game and play or i have to start a new one? anyone?

acidsatyr

Oct 31, 2006, 08:03 PM

...... you were pretty low on the science percentage.

When running SE, slider is not important, its how much beakers you get from specialist.

Mutineer

Oct 31, 2006, 08:40 PM

This has been massivley helpful...

Only complaint I have is that, this strategy seems harder than some more conventional ones, maybe after this one you can do a write up of an easier strategy, directed more twords the masses...

Overall though, I have learned a lot just from what has been done so far, I never really knew the power of scientists...

Actially this kind of strategy is more optimum and powerfull then cotttage spamming. I would allways think that to exercise more powerfull strategy is easier then less powerfull?

In civ you generally do not have time constrains. Only in online play this does not work that good because it more time consiuming and some of effects (Like ability to trade) useally is not awalible in online play.

playshogi

Oct 31, 2006, 08:43 PM

I had no trouble with normal 1.0 games with the new patch, although HOF mod won't work.

mice

Oct 31, 2006, 11:22 PM

If you run another one, or even for this one, could you post a save so we can go into it for a look? Thanks

Woobi

Nov 01, 2006, 12:20 AM

Wow, before I read this Emporer was kicking my ass...

However tonight I started a game with Frederick (Phi/Org). I am third in score (which is pretty good for never having one at the level) took one civ down to their capital (without iron or copper) before someone traded them bronze, managed to penninsula off a good three or four cites worth of land, and am about to land liberalism...

This has been very, very informitive and helpful, and the best part is, I didn't even do the strategy all that well...

voek

Nov 01, 2006, 01:34 AM

btw now that patch is out can i update my game and play or i have to start a new one? anyone?

I would finish this game without the patch and then start a new one patched. Seems somewhat weird otherwise since some traits have changed and so have some UB's.

LosBlack

Nov 01, 2006, 11:07 AM

Chariot rush was done with baracks built.

looking closely at the posted pic, i see that they all had 3/2 exp and were un-promoted. at that early point in the game, were you worried about catapults and collateral damage? i am usually worried more about barbs or enemy units hidden by fog during the march through enemy territory, so i promote my units before they leave my cutlural border. i realize that waiting to promote gives you some healing options, but i fear that a few un-promoted units may not make it to the destination (not having their extra 10% strength)..do you find this is usually not the case? i guess in the case of CR promotions that's not really an issue..

podraza

Nov 01, 2006, 11:12 AM

I tried to play an emperor game in celebration of the new patch last night, my first. I gave up after the barbarian hordes started decending on me and I had nothing stronger than warriors to use in my defense. I was in the process of hooking up copper in my second city.

This prompted me to go back and look at some of Acidsartyr's other games, as well as some of Mutineers and the other strong immortal players. What I noticed in that in each game either copper or horse appeared in the capital.

If copper or horse does not appear in the capital, then it is probably impossible/near impossible to hook it up in a second city before the barbarians appear. This doesn't necessarily mean disaster, but it does mean a HUGE difference (I would think) between the long standing prospects of a game where copper/horse appears in the capital and games where it doesn't.

Would you say then, oh wise one, that people like me, looking for my first win on emperor, should give it up immediately if I don't find copper/horse in the capital?

EDIT - or maybe somebody could offer up a strategy for dealing with this situation. Not only did I only have warriors, but I only had 1 per city. These barbarians were not particularly aggressive, but they were walking around there and making me feel uncomfortable. If they came for my farms, I could stop them only with a warrior and an unpromoted one at that.

My early research pattern generally mimicks the one in this game, I'll shoot for bronzeworking 1st or 2nd and then follow it up with AH. So after you've got both of those under your belt, and your capital has neither, what to do now?

Either you have to somehow make archers, but I'm not sure if you could research both techs required before the barbs come. Or you need to start churning out warriors. I am hesitant to build warriors only because I see them as something of a waste, but maybe that is a mistake.

LosBlack

Nov 01, 2006, 11:31 AM

Either you have to somehow make archers, but I'm not sure if you could research both techs required before the barbs come. Or you need to start churning out warriors. I am hesitant to build warriors only because I see them as something of a waste, but maybe that is a mistake.

never tried emperor, but perhaps getting archery would be your only other option in that case. it could save you if you got it in time, and extra archers can be put in future cities for defense. start out going to BW, and if it doesn't reveal go to archery. like you said, you might not have time to check for axes, then check for horses, then go to archery.

slowcar

Nov 01, 2006, 01:43 PM

I think you should realize that this game does not make up a rule how to play - it shows how to get the best out of a given situation.

As for barbarians: Try to fogbust, fortify warriors on wooded hills (+75% defense, +25% fortification) - and as said, if you find neither horses nor copper nearby go for archery and try to find some iron.

In a german GOTM the map was modified with no horses, copper nor iron available - you can make a real nice catapult-rush as the AI is not very able to deal with collateral.

As for immortal: I feel not ashamed to lose some games, even to the barbarians. Going for copper -> horses is gambling, and if you gamble you can and you will lose (sometimes).

we should maybe raise some fund for acidatyr buying a notebook so he can spread his wisdom while travelling the world ;)

podraza

Nov 01, 2006, 02:12 PM

Would anybody challenge my contention that you can't (usually) hook up second-city copper/horses before barbs appear on emperor? By hook up, I mean connect the resource to the capital, so that the capital can produce the new unit.

Maybe I'm just not efficient enough to squeeze it out. But I think I am.

My apologies if this is no longer relevant to this thread. This will be my last question on the topic. I'd love to hear what Acidsatyr thinks about it.

Murky

Nov 01, 2006, 03:16 PM

podraza

Nov 01, 2006, 03:20 PM

I'm talking more along the lines of farm-pillaging warrior barbs. Those seem to show up pretty early on the higher levels. And your own warriors just are a gamble as a defense. They might die, leaving your city defenseless.

LosBlack

Nov 01, 2006, 03:24 PM

would it set you back too far to build a barracks and a couple combat promoted warriors for the extra edge?

Mutineer

Nov 01, 2006, 06:03 PM

acidsatyr

Nov 01, 2006, 06:40 PM

crap, halfway trough, my browser closed...

to sum it up,

archery is really last option
do some fog busting with warriors

those chariots were all promoted before i attacked incas, but the picture was taken just before i promoted them.

grabbing strategic resource with your second city is almost never a problem if you really focus your strategy around that (and do some fogbusting).

two combat 1 warriors can take out one barb archer most of the time.

also, look where you are geographically compared to other civs. I was really close to incas capital, which means much lower possibility of barbs jumping out of fog.

at any point in my (or any other game), if any of the circumstances were different, i would’ve played my position differently, and according to present situation. This game is just snapshot of one possible flow of action.

Almost always you will have some metal or horses near (inside) capital.
If not, you always have compensation in terms of happiness, commerce, gold hills etc. If you dont have any of that, thats just bad luck. But, in worst case you can always rush to catapults.

cleverhandle

Nov 01, 2006, 07:10 PM

If copper or horse does not appear in the capital, then it is probably impossible/near impossible to hook it up in a second city before the barbarians appear.
Certainly not. I have no problem waiting until my third city to hook up copper provided that I'm not worried about the AI grabbing it. You can handle barb archers with warriors if you use them correctly.
EDIT - or maybe somebody could offer up a strategy for dealing with this situation. Not only did I only have warriors, but I only had 1 per city. These barbarians were not particularly aggressive, but they were walking around there and making me feel uncomfortable. If they came for my farms, I could stop them only with a warrior and an unpromoted one at that.
Why do you only have one warrior per city? And why are they in your cities? The barbs aren't inside your cities, they're outside your borders. It depends on the geographic details, but it's quite common for me to not a garrison a city until the happiness becomes an issue.
I am hesitant to build warriors only because I see them as something of a waste, but maybe that is a mistake.
It is. You're not using your warriors efficiently and are going to burn too many resources on early military because of it. Follow, in excruciating detail, the early turns of some Emperor SG's to see how much can be done with a handful of warriors.

podraza

Nov 01, 2006, 07:51 PM

Interesting answers, I thank you all. I think my problem is that thus far (up to Monarch), I have always been able to not only contain the barbarian threat but to do so comfortably. Now I must learn to play outside of that comfort zone and be willing to take a risk or two.

Illithid

Nov 02, 2006, 12:13 AM

aelf

Nov 02, 2006, 06:32 AM

Actually, you can survive against barb archers with warriors for a long time on Emperor. Just try to make sure you're the one defending most of the time and defending on good terrain. Because of first strike, one archer without any defense bonus can eat up two or three warriors before dying if you attack. It's basically a cat and mouse game where you have to try intercepting the archers before they get to your improvements and, in doing so, making them attack your warriors while they are standing on good terrain. A few pillaged improvements may be inevitable, though. That's the price of not having copper or horses nearby.

aelf

Nov 02, 2006, 09:47 AM

Anyway, one question I have for Acid is what if you don't start so near to a neighbour in an Immortal game? In this game, Huayna was near enough for you to rush his capital with chariots. What if there had been a distance between you and your closest neighbour and your borders can't meet till almost the medieval era? What would you do? I've heard you mention that you don't settle more than 3 cities yourself (including the capital). Do you wait for him to expand towards you or rush him early when he's still far away?

acidsatyr

Nov 02, 2006, 09:48 AM

Big questions I would have for Acidsatyr after reading this thread and previously reading that these days you tend to favor a specialist economy: Do you tend to only use philosphical leaders? If you do not use philosphical leaders only, how effective is using a specialist economy with a non-philo, non-finacial leader? How would you play differently with a non-philo leader?

SE without philo. leader is obviously less effective, although i play it with or without that trait. The reason is that early in the game you rely on specialist to lightbulb techs for you. Less great people means slower progress. It is still good way to play only less effective.
No philo trait would mean more cottages ultimately, hybrid economy would probably be best in this case.
The way I see it, financial trait benefits from heavily cottage oriented game (but still having GP production somewhere ). Philo trait would benefit much more from SE, while anything else goes in between ie hybrid. Certainly one of the biggest drawback heavily cottage oriented game is cities with low food surplus.

acidsatyr

Nov 02, 2006, 09:56 AM

aelf

Nov 02, 2006, 09:59 AM

On immortal ai expands faster than that

Much faster than on Emperor?

acidsatyr

Nov 02, 2006, 10:05 AM

id say thats correct,
faster anyway

podraza

Nov 02, 2006, 10:34 AM

id say thats correct,
faster anyway

Ok, but would you answer anyway? For us who are trying to use this thread as a backwards compatible guide to emperor wins?

Because I am having this very problem in a current game. I am India, basically trying to pull off the biggest Acidsatyr imitation I possibly can, and I find myself with 3 cities and an enemy who is at least 15-20 tiles away. It is about 750 BC and I've got my army of Axes ready and poised. Should I really trudge so far? Or build some more cities in the available space?

uberfish

Nov 02, 2006, 10:57 AM

podraza

Nov 02, 2006, 11:59 AM

Podraza - with lots of space available I'd have built settlers rather than axes, but since you already have the axes, you should do something constructive with them. Maybe there's a good barbarian city to take, or you could just grab the capital and raze other cities to avoid paying too much maintenance costs.

I don't think I'll finish this game anyway, I've made too many mistakes.

But for the future, I was wondering about settling vs. taking. Resources can be devoted to either, but the beauty of taking is that it takes from him what it gives to you. If you settle, you gain something, but he loses nothing.

So facing a giant gap of open land between he and I, I can settle it myself, or trudge the gap and take distant cities from him, creating a far flung empire, and leaving a gap to be filled in later. (but crippling a potentially threatening enemy early and permanently)

These are the sorts of caculations that probably are made possible only by experience. And I'm one of those players who spends more time on this forum than actually playing. I am lacking in the hands on experience department. So uberfish says settle, I'll settle.

cleverhandle

Nov 02, 2006, 04:13 PM

But for the future, I was wondering about settling vs. taking. Resources can be devoted to either, but the beauty of taking is that it takes from him what it gives to you. If you settle, you gain something, but he loses nothing.
The costs of maintaining far-off cities are too large IMO. If you've got decent open space, shift your focus to techs and builds (CoL, Monarchy, Courts, Cottages/Specialists) that will allow you to build a strong enough economy to support 5+ cities. Then go on the offensive in the Middle Ages once you've got a strong foundation.

acidsatyr

Nov 02, 2006, 07:57 PM

Ok, but would you answer anyway? For us who are trying to use this thread as a backwards compatible guide to emperor wins?

Because I am having this very problem in a current game. I am India, basically trying to pull off the biggest Acidsatyr imitation I possibly can, and I find myself with 3 cities and an enemy who is at least 15-20 tiles away. It is about 750 BC and I've got my army of Axes ready and poised. Should I really trudge so far? Or build some more cities in the available space?

look, you cant imitate Immortal games, :D
it will never work, you can use principles however.

If your closest neighbor is so far away, than concentrate on research and settle extra city or two on reasonable position, rather than send axes on a 750 year old trip. It depends what speed you’re playing as well. Extra cities recquire faster corthouses etc etc

podraza

Nov 03, 2006, 12:15 PM

I'm searching for the polite and appreciative way to say....

NEXT TURNSET PLEASE!

Meatbuster

Nov 03, 2006, 12:53 PM

I was wondering about settling vs. taking. Resources can be devoted to either, but the beauty of taking is that it takes from him what it gives to you. If you settle, you gain something, but he loses nothing.
Not entirely true, the opponents still lose land they could possibly expand to when you take over a part of the map with a new city.

It is obviously less painful for the enemy to lose a bit of their dotmap than to lose a city, but settling is still an offensive move and it hurts them in some way.

acidsatyr

Nov 03, 2006, 02:34 PM

I'm searching for the polite and appreciative way to say....

NEXT TURNSET PLEASE!

you will have to be patient, as I value RL much more than civ, which is quite time consuming.
I said I will finish this as soon as i have more free time...

podraza

Nov 03, 2006, 02:36 PM

RL = real life?

MiKa523

Nov 06, 2006, 08:03 AM

RL = real life?
What's that? :scan::crazyeye:

BTW, great story!

podraza

Nov 06, 2006, 08:57 AM

What's that? :scan::crazyeye:

BTW, great story!

More valuable than Civ in the eyes of some.

podraza

Nov 10, 2006, 10:57 AM

I remember and long for the glory days of this thread. Before the dark times.

Tyrant Roger

Nov 10, 2006, 01:59 PM

Yes, a great darkness has settled on this thread, but then of course it is the Middle Ages.

Pray for the Renaissance soon ... Where is Da Vinci?
:rolleyes:

LosBlack

Nov 10, 2006, 04:47 PM

Yes, a great darkness has settled on this thread, but then of course it is the Middle Ages.

Pray for the Renaissance soon ... Where is Da Vinci?
:rolleyes:

no kidding. i really hope acidsatyr comes back to finish up the game. comparing his play to mine was like looking at a Corvette next to a station wagon.. threads like this one, aelf's Emp. Masters' Challenge, and the ALC's are a huge reason i can win consistantly on Prince these days.

waiting for the Messiah to come and vindicate my actions..er..waiting.

dime

Nov 12, 2006, 03:10 AM

Brilliant thread!

Just started a new game on prince with Gandhi... got a continent with Alex, Shaka and Monty - not the nicest bunch of people. This, coupled with the advice of Voice of Unreason in an ealier thread, compelled me to go through the top of the science tree for the first time... never did that, though I usually play specialist economy as I dismissed many of the techs as "culture only"... managed to settle three very solid cities with copper + horses... just ahead of Alex, both sites for #2/#3 were just in between us. Got the worker techs and went top side to quickly get Litterature (GL 500BC was very quick for me)... the revelation came when I realized I founded Taoism BEFORE Confucianism (through lightbulbing by a GS) AND still managed to research CoL first :eek: :eek: :eek:

Fantastic approach - though I certainley didn't NEED Confucianism first - it was a bonus. Whole continent at this point except Alex is buddhist and the other continent I think have Hindu + Judaism... anyways - Alex has no metals, only horses, and alot of nice land so here I go :hammer:

/A

Heeringas

Nov 15, 2006, 05:38 AM

Great article indeed!Thanks for the tips:)
I started immortal game with gandhi and tried pretty much same starting startegy. Difference was/is that I have tiny map, and five opponents, continents, cold climate and low water level...(last two were random in settings)
I started on a continent with Bismarck and cyrus...Both are my vassals now. Other continet is halfly for Isabella and Brennus...I have made only one cottage, that is now town next to Delhi. My strategy has now gone apart from acidsatyrs one, because I don´t need grenadiers or cannons yet, so I took Astronomy as a freetech from Liberalism...I have ToA (in Berlin) and I wanted to have some trade money from isabella and Brennus `cause...well ;) germanny and Persia are hoplessly small... other in northern ice territory and other in south...heh...
I didn´t want to kill them down...They have some resources on the ice that I need myself (marble and silver), but I didn´t want to make my own city there so I decided to let them live and work for me...

I´m in really strong tech and point lead...I´m going now for physics and then towards biology and then it´s time for the domination of the another continent...
I haven´t been as fast as Acidsatyr, I got liberalism 1050AD...But it´s because I haven´t been able to do much tech trade, cause everyone else is too much behind...I also got economics first...wich has never happened to me before on immortal...
But gandhi is a strong leader! Phi spi is imo the best combination ( althought I like also Agg pro) Saladin was my favourite in Vanilla CIV...

Ones again, thank you Acidman ;)

acidsatyr

Nov 15, 2006, 05:02 PM

Ok im playing third part now, basically captured a few maos cities, evrything going very slow, my computer that has civ on it is weak for this stage of a game..... anyway i should post by weekend

asabahi

Nov 15, 2006, 11:05 PM

I had given up hope, but he has returned to show us the way. Hurry and post.

Please.

Messias1120

Nov 21, 2006, 07:50 AM

Very interesting read so far, thanks for doing this.
I like the way u do, to make the best of your advantages.

ungy

Nov 21, 2006, 08:49 AM

Great thread--and very educational. Couple of questions:

1. Did you consider finishing the Inca off (after the first treaty) to avoid the happy penalty and culture issues?

2. I'm a little curious about the warlord promo, especially the second. I usually make a healer with the first and then instructor as you have good unit city in capital. Am I too afraid of losing the unit?

Very impressive job of leveraging your strengths and thanks for the thread

HardCoder

Nov 21, 2006, 04:46 PM

look, you cant imitate Immortal games, :D
it will never work, you can use principles however.

If your closest neighbor is so far away, than concentrate on research and settle extra city or two on reasonable position, rather than send axes on a 750 year old trip. It depends what speed you’re playing as well. Extra cities recquire faster corthouses etc etc
Right, if you're playing a low sea level continents map at Monarch you're not going to get anywhere by trying to wipe out a whole continent full of opponents ... it'll be 1500 AD and at least one AI will have 2-3x your score. The enemy in general is just too far away and you can't let it do your expansion 'for you' by taking cities it builds near you. Maybe you could take one enemy civ and maybe part of another and be done with it by 1000 BC or something. In a way this makes the intermediate difficulty levels (Prince-Monarch) harder, because you have to keep up with things that the AI is very good at (building and researching) as opposed to the things that the AI sucks at (war). The only way the AI can beat a half decent human in warfare is by being 1-2 techs ahead or 3x as large. Especially in Warlords, it's a bummer to play a game where you get no GGs early on because you aren't having any real wars ....

To get some early conflict at lower difficulty levels, play on a pangea (or fractal/continents/terra) with high sea level.

I like playing the Persians in Warlords because Immortals are a very good unit for quite some time, they're cheap and require little tech, and you get to the enemy a lot faster than with axes. Plus you get those generals fast.

clarktu

Nov 21, 2006, 05:05 PM

Very great work and I see the new ideas of using GS. This is really new and great! However, I think you have taken too many cities and there will be problems for your maintains and research. At 1370 AD you dropped to 30% research and still get -22 GPT. Then how do you do with the later research? GP is not too efficient then. Every technique will cost you 2~3 GS (and more on the later) and that's pain. Looks like an org/phi or fin/phi combined one will do better results.

Phyacis

Nov 21, 2006, 06:14 PM

^^ Research % and gold surplus/deficit are far less relevant when using specialists than with a cottage/financial based economy. I skimmed the thread but its very possible at both immortal and diety to finance a very large deficit via selling techs to backwards countries, relying on momentum conquering new cities, and running merchant specialists in the junk conquered cities. Cash is by far the least important concern at this stage, being the easiest resource to get, and least useful.

Clearly acidsatyr knows what he's doing, hence I doubt he plans to rely on specialists much past the mid game, when the power of cottages starts to ramp up and the return on gpps starts to drop, but it's very possible to win efficiently at all levels without building a single cottage if your leader and game plan are geared to doing so. Excellent thread, very refreshing to see someone leveraging mechanics at immortal instead of repeating ancient gambits at monarch - 5 stars :)

LosBlack

Nov 30, 2006, 04:07 PM

shameless *bump*

charge to 80!! CLEAR!! <zzzztt> still no pulse.. :sad:

anyone on this thread consistently play on Emperor or Immortal? ever play? has anyone tried acidsatyr's tactics on this level?

0R4NG3

Nov 30, 2006, 06:41 PM

This is my first post, and the only reason I'm writing it is 'cause I'm getting impatient with checking this thread everyday only to find that there's been no update.
Acidsatyr finish the game please, or at least admit that you've lost. There is no shame in losing... :)

acidsatyr

Nov 30, 2006, 07:22 PM

HA!
naw guys im still playing really dont have time, wasnt home during thanksgiving, and now have to concentrate on college finals....
im pretty sure ill win, i own almost whole continent now, and honestly i dont see any motivation in continuing

doing writup and posting pictures is just .....pain.

carl corey

Dec 01, 2006, 03:19 AM

Heeeey, WE are still interested! :) If you could do just a summary of your movements, maybe include a few saves it should be all ok.

darrelljs

Dec 01, 2006, 09:09 AM

anyone on this thread consistently play on Emperor or Immortal? ever play? has anyone tried acidsatyr's tactics on this level?

Defining his general blueprint as:

1. Getting Worker techs and optimizing the start location.
2. Getting strategic techs and settling a second city to pick up a metal or horses.
3. Taking out a nearby neighbor before they get up and running to have a competitive amount of land.
4. Beeline to Writing (and then Alphabet), using Scientists and tech trading to keep up in research.
5. Roll with the punches and adapt to the situation.

Then, yes I've tried this on both Emperor and Immortal. IMHO it is not really needed on Emperor, there are plenty of other ways to win at that level but they do usually involve an early war. On Immortal, I've tried this approach exclusively (and only tried it at all because of reading his threads). I've had pretty mixed results (and by mixed I mean I lose most games ;)). I think the :devil: is in the details, it would be cool if CIV had a record function so I could play 100 turns from his initial start, then replay his exact moves and compare. Re-set with his 100 turns save and do another turnset comparison, etc.

I will note most of my failures are strategic, though. For example I lost a game last night where I started as Hatty, claimed 5 cities in the initial land grab using Settlers (including Horses and Ivory, but no metals) by blocking off my only nearby neighbor Cyrus and refusing to open borders with him. Monty settled up to my borders in the north, Alexander in the NW, and Louis in the west (east was coast). I knew with this start it was too late for for an early rush, but when Alexander declared on Cyrus I thought I had an opportunity to pick up some crumbs. My stack of 20 War Chariots took two marginal cities after Alexander had softened them up, and I settled a site he razed, but I couldn't make any real progress as Cyrus already had several Spears in his remaining three core cities. It was at this time that Monty at Pleased relations declared on me, and hit two cities before I could redeploy my troops effectively. I abandoned the game :(. So, I believe my strategic error was not properly understanding what the Alexander war declaration meant for me. I would have been better off just settling the one city he razed and using my War Chariots to deter Monty. Also, with Elephants I should have not gone for Alphabet but instead gone after Construction.

Darrell