Here we go, guys.


I wonder why, I wonder why, I wonder why I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder.

Welcome... to Wonder Woman!

In this challenge, we strive to be not the greatest, or the latest, or the most, but the fastest. The fastest... to own the greatest buildings this world will ever know: The World Wonders. And we need lots of them. Twelve, to be precise. Yes, we know that's far more than our fair share, but whoever said we weren't greedy? Here are our settings:

Prince Difficulty
Large Lakes Map
Normal Speed
Temperate, High Sea Level
8 opponents (normal for the size)
No other abnormal settings

We are Hatshepsut of the Egyptians. Spiritual/Creative, starting with The Wheel and Agriculture. Unique unit is the War Chariot, replacing the Chariot, with one more strength.

A few small bits of information about the map, to disadvantage those who can make only a single attempt less: There is Stone a short way to the south, and salt water a few tiles west, for those who want to build the coastal wonders. Moving 1 tile SW before settling may well reap dividends.

The winner will be the player who posts the earliest save with 12 World Wonders under their control. Note that for these purposes Shrines do not count as World Wonders. Ties will be broken in favour of the player whose wonders have the greatest total hammer value, and in favour of first posting if that's also tied. Unlike in HoF or GotM games, you may restart from the beginning and replay this game as many times as you like. You may not, however, restart from later saves. You're welcome to post whatever you like in this thread, but please use spoiler tags to hide any information not freely available at the start of the game.

The closing date of this challenge is Sunday 5th November, at midnight. Though you are welcome to continue playing and posting after that, the scores will not be counted if you do so. The starting save is attached below.

Good luck,
Garath, First Citizen

High Score List (6:45pm, Monday 30 Oct)
1=. uberfish, 800AD
1=. ShannonCT, 800AD
3. Garath, 840AD
4. Urederra, 1070AD
5. Shoot The Moon, 1200AD
6. Cabledawg, 1450AD

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/45413/Challenge_7_start.JPG

Wonder Woman, eh? I think I'll change the in-game details when I'll play. At least the name. ;)

Anyway, thanks for doing this, Garath, and good luck to everyone!

I'll try this one.
Let's find where the horses are...

And we're off!

Congrats again Garath on winning Ironman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189150),and thanks for putting this together.

Did you remove all the goody huts?


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So I wonder who is going to be the first to post a save that accidentally includes a National Wonder as one of their 12 World Wonders? HeHe. National Wonders are inferior 2nd class citizens and will be rejected by Hatty the Wonder Woman.

Good luck all. :goodjob:



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Oh, goody huts. Blast, I knew I would forget something. How do I do that, anyway? Either I can go and do that and repost the save (or indeed anybody else can, I guess), or we can just roll with it. I doubt it makes *that* much difference.

Garath

The only way to do it in vanilla Civ is to go in the WorldBuilder and remove them manually. There's an option for it in Warlords, maybe they'll add it to a future vanilla patch.

That said, the file has been downloaded 8 times and some people have already started to play. I don't think it makes that much difference either so I'd let them in this time.

No probs. I think roll with the save we've got as some people might have started. I don't think it will make that much difference here, and we all like getting presents. :D

On small challenges I think it's a very good idea to remove them. Although I can't see where that option is on World-builder. Probably just right-click them in map mode or something.



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Edited: You took the words right out of my mouth, Mr. Corey.

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Hello. First time I write on this forum and also first time I write in English on a forum, so please be kind and don't treat me to bad for the errors I may make. ;)

I've read some of the older topics about these challenges and thought I should give it a try, even if I still lack a single win on Monarch or above. Unfortunately I ended my last try after around 3000 years because I missed the Oracle and the Parthenon (hopefully this is the correct name, as I have only the German version of the game) and only managed to get the Pyramids and Stonehenge.

But I will give it another try after I thought some more time about what the fastest way to get the needed wonders may be.

Anyway, thank you for these interesting challenges. :)

Hello. First time I write on this forum and also first time I write in English on a forum, so please be kind and don't treat me to bad for the errors I may make. ;)

But I will give it another try after I thought some more time about what the fastest way to get the needed wonders may be.

Anyway, thank you for these interesting challenges. :)

welcome to the forums:band:

Welcome to the forums Serdoa. (Does Serdoa mean anything or is it just a name?)

:beer::cheers::beer:

My advice is don't worry too much about getting a large number of early wonders. I'm targeting specific (useful) early wonders but focusing on building a strong base to my civ. The road to 12 Wonders is a long one. So plan ahead.

Good luck.


P.S. Your english is better than my german.


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Is this challenge for Warlords or vanilla? If warlords, then I'll run for Great Wall=no barbs.

It's Vanilla Civ, I'm afraid. Not all of us have Warlords yet, and we want to be as inclusive as possible.

As for strategies, I have yet to start my own game, but I imagine it's going to take a while. At least before the early results are posted and we know what the dates to beat are, I wouldn't be restarting for missing just a couple of wonders.

Garath, First Citizen of the Wonder-ful Republic

@cabert Thanks. :) btw: I think happiness and healthiness won't be a problem in my cities any longer ;)

@Raiser Thanks for the advice :) I think I will give it another try tomorrow as soon as I come home. I also thought about starting to build a strong civ first (and knowing now where to find marble will definitely help in the next try) but losing the Oracle with 4 Turns left only because I build a settler inbetween which didn't help me at this point in time really frustrated me. Especially because I've seen it coming since I started the settler and nonetheless I didn't bother whipping the settler nor the oracle (which maybe would have been possible when I would have had whipped the settler) nor did I lumber the last wood near the city but instead mined a unused hill :smoke:

Regarding your question: Serdoa is only a name I started to use back in the days when I played Dark Age of Camelot. After that I started to use it for most of my internet writings.

1450AD...I really think someone will beat this though. There were alot of things i could have done differently. i captured my 12th wonder on the last turn and could have done it 5 turns sooner.
I dont think the wonders you build need to be in a spoiler tag, so heres the ones I owned at the end.
1....Stonehenge
2....Pyramids
3....Parthenon
4....Great Lighthouse
5....Collosus
6....Hanging Gardens
7....Great Library
8....Sistine Chapel
9....Angkor Wat
10..Taj Majal
11..Spiral Mineret
12..Chichen itza

Congrats Cabledawg for setting the first date to beat. Gotta say, that stack looks like a *bit* more overkill than strictly necessary for the job :)

When there are a couple more scores, I'll edit a high score table into the first post.

Garath, First Citizen

I could have shaved 5 turns off the end by attacking sooner. And i could have shaved 10 other turns from other goofy moves. i think that <1300AD is possible if i wanted to try again.....which i really dont.

Hello all. This was my first challenge. I finished my 12th wonder in 960AD. I decided to stay small and stick with two cities. The limiting factor was mostly the rate that I could get the necessary techs rather than the rate that I could build the wonders. I never had to fight an AI and barbs were barely an issue. I stuck with a pure specialist economy. I might try again with more cottages and/or more cities to see if I can tech faster.

The Wonder list:

Stonehenge
Pyramids
Oracle
Parthenon
Great Lighthouse
Colosus
Chichen Itza
Great Library
Hanging Gardens
Spiral Minaret
Notre Dame
Sistine Chapel

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/Wonder_Woman_AD-0960.Civ4SavedGame

Nicely done, ShannonCT! That looks like a very good date, though it's early days yet. You say you self-built all the wonders? I hope I wasn't right to worry about Prince being too low...

Garath, First Citizen

Nicely done, ShannonCT! That looks like a very good date, though it's early days yet. You say you self-built all the wonders? I hope I wasn't right to worry about Prince being too low...

Garath, First Citizen

This was actually my second try. First time, I started with Stonehenge and Pyramids in my two cities. One of the AI beat me to Oracle by a couple turns. This was a big loss, so I started over and built Stonehenge and Pyramids again as before, then chopped and whipped more agressively to be the first to Oracle. I took Metal Casting with the Oracle and built a forge in my Pyramid city. I ended up getting three Great Engineers from this city. After the first few wonders, the AI had no chance, given my big tech lead. They should have attacked my beautiful cities defended by warriors. :crazyeye:

800 AD (the log shows it as 780 AD for some reason), 3 cities, built all wonders myself. My twelve:

1: Stonehenge
2: Pyramids
3: Oracle (found Confucianism)
4: Great Lighthouse
5: Parthenon
6: Great Library
7: Gardens
8: Chicken
9: Colossus
10: Sistine Chapel
11: Notre Dame
12: Angkor Wat

Cottages are not very useful, I built one. It was suboptimal. There is some luck involved in what type of GPs you get.

Congrats on 800AD Uberfish.

I have no idea what the lowest possible date is for this, but I will damn well try and find it.

Started over after my first attempt went south. This time I'm going to try a more extreme route.



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Would a move towards early Metal Casting be viable? Getting more GEs could be vital, and an engineer specialist could help do that. And forges will improve wonder speed anyway.

Had another go at it. I ended up matching Uberfish with a 800AD date. All of the same wonders as Mr. Uber too.

I went with a third city this time to grab an extra resource.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/Wonder_Woman_AD-0800.Civ4SavedGame

First attempt: 1200 AD. I made a couple of huge blunders:
After I got Pyramids, I forgot to change civics (heriditay rule would have saved a lot of time). Also, I miss counted wonders, so I did not rush at all to the last wonder. In addition, I started cottages way too late. I also missed the Parthenon by a couple of turns due to stupidity, which would have saved me reasearching Divine Right.

My general strategy:
I went with three cities, capitol 1SW of starting spot, next 2E of sheep, next between cow, gems and rice to the east. Only wonder I didn't get was Parthenon.

Hi,

I am newbie here. Well, new at the challenges. I built my 12nd wonder on 1070 AD. That was my fourth attempt. Here it is what happened in my previous attempts:

I was lucky at my first attempt, I had up to three scouts from the goody huts, but I realized I placed my second city in a wrong tile, so I restarted the game. (restart it from 4000 BC, I have followed the game rules and I have never restarted the game from a date other than 4000 BC)
My second attempt was very unlucky, my warrior got killed in a not so goody hut.
My third attempt was more lucky, I managed to pop-up animal husbandry, but something went wrong, I cant remember what, and i started from scratch again.
I remembered the sequence for the animal husbandry pop-up, so I repeated it. I got it. and I also got very lucky and I poped iron working too... that was a big blast. I commited a couple of mistakes too, but overall it was a well played game

My general strategy
I started founding without moving the settler and building a worker and researching mining followed by bronze working for the chop rush. then, by a lucky strike I had animal husbandry popped from a hut. I worked the cows, make roads until i discovered chopping, then chop 1 tile to rush a settler, place it by the clamps at the plain/hills tile (it gives an extra hammer ;) )

Then discover fishing, work the pig's tile, generate another worker in the capital, after growing to pop two, discover masonry, quarry at the stones and start building the piramids.

the third city was founded close to the gems, for the extra money. I wasn't going to try stonehedge, but since it only took 10 turns to build it in my second city, I tried and I built it in the same turn I finished the piramids. I went for the oracle in my third city, after building a worker. I researched code of laws and I chose philosophy as a freebie. I changed to caste system and the civic that gives extra 100% great person growing rate (can't remember the civic's name)

i found a fourth city in the jungle close to the rice tile and the dyes tile. I declared war on then japanese and I took 2 of their cities.

Finally, I had two great engineers that i used to rush two wonders and I chop rushed Itza and the spiral minaret to finish at 1070 AD.

My two big mistakes: I forgot to research politeism (It wasn't very polite of me LOL) until I had my first great prophet. So I didn't go for the parthenon.
Somehow I think an 50% extra great person rate would be much better than any other wonder thing.

I went for music too late too. I didn't know you can build a great wonder if you research music. Usually I do it for the great artist if I go for a cultural victory.

EDIT: On second thoughts, maybe I shouldn't have founded my fourth city. The attack to the japanese was good since I built itza in one of his cities by chop-rushing while I was working on other wonders in my other three big cities.


I will try to do it better sometime this week..

Great thread.

So far I've had one abortive and two complete attempts, myself. On the first attempt I lost three wonders by 200AD, so I gave up. On the second I got an 840AD finish, and on the third I managed to build eleven wonders by 720AD, but without the tech for any more. I'd lost the Parthenon by one turn earlier in the attempt, though, so I'm at least morally convinced that 720AD could have been done. Something to aim for!

Strategies follow:
The crucial thing I'm not sure of is whether it's actually worth getting Civil Service or not. In the first full attempt I didn't get it at all, taking an early Metal Casting from the Oracle and getting the wonders built fairly efficiently afterwards. However, I only had two workers, which wasn't *nearly* enough to chop the forests efficiently at the end, and I founded my third city far too late, so I could definitely have done better without CS.

The second attempt was CS from a Prophet, after taking Code of Laws (I think) from the Oracle. I don't like how late that delays Masonry, though, since there are very important wonders available from it. I'm still undecided on which is better, though. I had four workers in this one (still not enough), which greatly increased the chopping efficiency at the end of the run, and I think that made most of the difference in date, so I'm still not sure about CS. What do the rest of you think about tech path?

My main irritations so far are that the date of the AI building the Parthenon is massively variable (and I'm pretty sure it's going to be necessary on the best path, being cheaper than all other options before Divine Right), and that which Great People you get makes a significant difference. I've seen, over those three attempts, the AIs build the Parthenon in 500BC, 1AD and 500AD, or so. In one attempt I got a Great Engineer, and they're definitely more useful than, say, the third Great Prophet. So if someone gets lucky and gets a Prophet, two Engineers and one other as their four great people (I'm getting four, the last timed together with the Artist from Music for a GA), rather than say two Prophets and two Scientists like my last run, they'll definitely improve it, and it's entirely luck based.

Saves attached for the 840AD complete and the 720AD 11-wonder game.

Garath

So I'm still not sure about CS. What do the rest of you think about tech path?For me it comes down to the fact that in a game that finishes at 800AD the most efficient of a Great Prophet is a lightbulb. And the best lightbulb is probably CS.

As I seem to be getting two prophets. I think I'll try super-specialist for the first while going the Metal Casting route and using the second one to jump to a late CS and take the last few wonders from there.



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I had an abortive attempt at this, but don't seem to be able to tech sufficiently quickly :(

The approach I've been trying is popping a prophet for Theology after bagging metal casting via the oracle and then running temple-powered priests to grab Divine Right for the last wonder or two. With cultural + stonehenge, you can steal territory from any other civ on the map, which makes slashing 2nd and 3rd cities across Gandhi's land to grab the marble and horses in the ice to the southwest relatively easy (especially as he'll never declare on you). The Parthenon helps with the great person generation, but always seems to give me an unwanted artist at very low odds, which isn't really helping matters.

I had an abortive attempt at this, but don't seem to be able to tech sufficiently quickly :(



Try settling and grabbing the gems at the other side of the lake. then, build the great library over there.

EDIT: I gave the game some oher tries and I had the same problem you are describing, patagonia. In the first try I skipped iron working because it doesn't allow building any wonders or the discovery of any tech that gives you wonders, but then I realized that I needed to jungle-chopping and mining the gems :wallbash: Then I tried settling on the gold across the jungle, but Caesar claimed the spot first.

Now I am going to try researching fishing early and selecting the lake tiles in my capital since it gives you 2 commerce, and then beeline to iron working and see if I can choose philosophy with the oracle. I like the extra 100% great person growth rate.

After an aborted attempt, I got 900 AD on my next attempt. I went with the same three cities as before. I'm not sure how much I can improve on that time. Although one thing obviously lacking in my game was any luck from huts. In terms of IW for the gems, I went for alphabet and traded back IW. I think my next attempt will be pretty extreme. I am thinking of giving away almost every tech I research in hopes of speeding up the teching rate of the game. Another note, in terms of Great Prophet use, I would rather lightbulb theology for Sistine's than CS.

Iron Working isn't a wonder tech, so I don't want to have to self-research it. Getting it from trading after Alphabet seems more than good enough to me, unless you desperately need the Gems site rather than another location. Fundamentally, it isn't actually all that important to be able to chop jungle early (or at all, if you had to self-research it. It's nice, but it can wait), and I've never been attacked, so Iron clearly isn't needed for military.

As for Prophet lightbulbing, I thought Theology until I realised that Sistine Chapel is the most expensive wonder on the list, so the game is almost certain to be won by someone who manages to build the Parthenon instead. CS is clearly best, but it delayed Masonry too much in my last run. Maybe I should simply be more proactive about Stonehenge, rather than letting it wait for workers and settlers and suchlike.

I'm interested by this idea of throwing the second or third city out to the marble somewhere or other. I might have to give that a try, though my inclination is that it'll just be too far to make it worth bothering.

Garath

I tried reversing my first and second cities. 1st city on the silk-cows-clams-dye site north of the start position and the 2nd back down south on the site one square south-west of the start position for the cows-pig-wheat and stone.

I like the strong start this provides, as the workboat allows early growth. (Warrior while getting Fishing; Work-boat while growing and getting B/W; then 1 turn on worker and whip for 2 pop to finish.)

The forest layout works well this way. 5 mid-turn chops for the 1st settler. Settler and worker to the second city site and 3 mid-turn chops for the 2nd worker. So no slowing of growth at any point.

And the early wonders felt easy. I got Henge and Oracle in the capital, while I was building the Pyramids with the stone connected in 2nd city. This separates out the early GE wonder, and I didn't feel the loss of stone for the Henge.

Unfortunately this time round the 3rd city was a problem. It wasn't any slower than my other abortive attempts, but Toku was super quick on strong the eastern Gems and Cow site, and Julius took the Gold, Wheat and Bronze site north of my capital. (I like that site as it speeds up the Colossus in the capital and gives an easy +1 happy.)

Perhaps I should have gone for just 2 cities, but I took the poor third location a little south-west of my second city - Sheep and 4 hills - and regretted it. Started loosing wonders.

Abandoned this attempt about 1000AD with 10 built, but I'll try again.



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First (blind) attempt my research died. Writing took 20-some turns, Alphabet was going to take forever. I abandoned the second attempt after losing the 'Henge by 1 turn, but it's the approach I think I'll pursue for now:
Settle on the silk. This brings in clams for early research, as well as cows and a couple of hills. Second city NE of sheep, with four hills. Third near the start, wheat+stone+pigs+cows. I might try switching the order of the second and third. Capital builds Stonehenge but doesn't finish it early. Just sink hammers there in between workers and settlers. Second city builds Oracle as fast as possible (read: chopping), claiming Metal Casting. Third city puts up a forge quickly and runs an engineer to get a GE for the Pyramids. I need the forge up no more than 15 turns after the earliest wonder, which is why the 'Henge has to wait until the Oracle is almost done.
Research order is Fishing, Mining, Myst, AH, BW, Med, Poly, Pottery, Writing. I'm not positive on the timing of Myst.

As a more general thought, this game seems to be research-limited. Cottages won't have the time to pay off, there are no rivers, the only gems are covered in jungle, and we're not financial. That probably means one of two things: Colossus + Great Lighthouse for a coastal strategy, or run a specialist economy with lots of scientists. The latter plan would very much like the Pyramids and (to a lesser extent) the Parthenon. I'm not sure how feasible it is to get both, however.

peace,
lilnev

I've had some attempts, but I can never get below 900AD. How do you build the pyramids and not stunt growth? *sigh*.

Say Uberfish, if you do win this one, are you going to go for a standard challange, or some crazy ones like the ones on your website (which was a great read BTW)? On top of my head, perhaps a "fastest to spread Christianity to every city in the world"? We need a storyline for that of course.

I'm interested by this idea of throwing the second or third city out to the marble somewhere or other.

Err, what marble? I couldn't find any, even looking in the worldbuilder after the game.

New best date here... 740AD. Same strategy as my 800AD game.

Settle by cows, pigs, wheat, and stone. Second city on plains hill on the coast near sheep. Third city later to grab marble for Great Library and other wonders. Took Metal Casting with the Oracle for forges and more engineers. Ended up with 2 great engineers for wonders. 1 prophet for theology. 1 prophet as a super specialist. 1 scientist for philosophy. If that second prophet had been another engineer, I probably could have shaved off 5 more turns.

The Wonders:
1: Stonehenge
2: Pyramids
3: Oracle (Metal Casting)
4: Parthenon
5: Great Lighthouse (engineer)
6: Great Library
7: Colossus
8: Chichen Itza
9: Hanging Gardens
10: Notre Dame (engineer)
11: Sistine Chapel
12: Angkor Wat

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/87280/Wonder_Woman_AD-0740.Civ4SavedGame

Err, what marble? I couldn't find any, even looking in the worldbuilder after the game.
It's in the ice about 15-20 squares SW of the start position - pretty much due south of where Gandhi begins the game, but accessible with city number 3 due to the masses of culture the first two are pumping.

Settling directly on it would speed hook-up time and leave a fair few nearby forests to chop a wonder there.

Thanks patagonia, I didn't see the marble either.

Well played, Shannon, It seems that having luck with the great engineers is a key.

Well done ShannonCT. I'm jut not cutting the mustard here (is that an UK-only expression??) My best attempt is 1190AD. I'll try once more at the weekend. (Maybe. Maybe not. I've got Neverwinter 2 arriving Friday and Medieval 2 demo is out now! :run:)

I'm working a good specialist economy, and I won all my 12 wonder races finishing on Notre Dame. No need for me to research monarchy to get that tricky Divine Right. Metal Casting from the Oracle. Light-bulbed Theology and researched CoL and happen to get a GP light-bulb to CS the next turn. So took it for the irrigation as much as anything. Even got one GE (finally), but still ended on 1190AD. Which is way off target. :(

Not sure what I'm going to change. I do like this 3 city placement, especially the northern city with it's 4 mines, Copper (for the Collosus) and a Goldmine.
Capital whipped from 11 pop to 6 pop for the last wonder.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/99375/Raiser_Wonder_city_placement.JPGI guess 2 cities and snatching Marble, as ShannonCT did, is a stronger way to go.



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aye, raiser, methinks that be a british expression only....

must be because them americans put mustard only on their hot dogs. but if any of y´all ever get to the southern part of germany please do me the favour and try our sweet mustard with... well basically anything, though of course weisswürste and leberkäse are the traditional dishes...

i did not get a chance to play a lot of civ the last weeks, so i gave this two tries tonight. 1090 on my first blind (and completely borked up) attempt. then i tried to think my way through the second time around... and boy did i sink the titanic. i was trying to plot a course around that iceberg and spent so much time thinking that the 3rd class was already being cast for that darn leo de caprio flick when i borked it up even more. if i get the time give this another go it will certainly teach me something about the tech tree (like how it works for starters) and something about micromanaging (as in: "do it"). of course slavery is a tool i never ever really use and even though i have been told time and time again... i´m still surprised that it actually does something.

love the challenge, hate not having enough time

hut-spoiler


move up to first hut N, wait a turn, pop animal hjusbandry.
move to suggested city site (cows,silk, water resource) go directly for the hut, wait a turn before popping it and pop another tech, fishing i think)

I'm working a good specialist economy, and I won all my 12 wonder races finishing on Notre Dame. No need for me to research monarchy to get that tricky Divine Right. Metal Casting from the Oracle. Light-bulbed Theology and researched CoL and happen to get a GP light-bulb to CS the next turn. So took it for the irrigation as much as anything. Even got one GE (finally), but still ended on 1190AD. Which is way off target. :(


Some advice Raiser:

You should be able to get at least two GEs. My first GE came in my Pyramids city after I built a forge and ran an engineer specialist. I was 97% for the first one. Add Hanging Gardens to that same city and you have a good chance of popping another one later even when the pool starts getting polluted. I actually got three GEs in my 800AD game but couldn't get the necessary techs fast enough to use the last one. It looks from your screenshot that you didn't shut off research after getting the tech you needed for 12 wonders. Why not use your spare cash with Universal Suffrage to rush the last wonder? And you're right about marble. It's a must have. Just delay settling on top of the marble until you are ready to start building the Great Library.

Thanks for the suggestions ShannonCT:

I was 97% for the first GE.- Looking closer I see that you started Pyramids in your first city, and Henge and Oracle in your second. That certainly helps with getting the first GE and raising the chance of a second.

The problem I was finding was that I was loosing the Oracle to the AI's. In the end I had to skip the Henge to focus on settlers and getting the Oracle by 1500BC. But I guess that I shouldn't have given up on leaving the Oracle until later as you got it twice at about 1000BC.


It looks from your screenshot that you didn't shut off research after getting the tech you needed for 12 wonders. Why not use your spare cash with Universal Suffrage to rush the last wonder? - I looked at US to finish fast, but it didn't add up. I needed to speed to my last wonder-tech and at that point I used my one GE to complete one wonder and slavery worked out quicker on the other as I was pop 11 by then.

So no need to switch off the research. (I pessimistically put the research into Monarch to allow Divine Right in case I lost the last wonder to an AI.)


And you're right about marble. It's a must have. Just delay settling on top of the marble until you are ready to start building the Great Library.- Thinking about it I'm not sure how much Marble is really going to help lower my end-date. You just used it on Grt Lib (for a saving of 175 hammers) and Sistine (for 300). Which is good but if I had 2 GE's, which is my aim, I would save them both for the final expensive wonders and expect to use one of them on the Sistine. So the cost of the settler for Marble would only get me the 175 hammers.


- Research Speed: Where I, and I think a lot of people here, are having the biggest problem is in maintaining fast research for the last 5 techs. I'm sure it's this lack of research that is pushing the date for 800AD to 1100AD, not the lack of production, as I have too many fallow periods where I don't have a wonder to build. (Therefore I don't feel that your lucky popping of 2 GE's is "the key" that makes your 740AD result so impressive.)

Between wonders I am throwing my citizens into a specialist economy. (I tried a 14-cottage economy attempt and as Uberfish and lilnev say it just doesn't work.)

You seem to have your tech-rate sorted. But it's difficult for me too see where you are getting it from?

In your 740AD save you have max of +9 excess food in Thebes for 4 scientists and +5 excess food in Memphis for a couple more. Assuming you had the population (can't see cos you whipped hard at the end) you could have worked a maximum of 9 triple-coin water titles in addition. And you had no real luxuries (I'm excluding your lucky Gems pop in Memphis as you did just as well in your similar 800AD attempt without getting the Gems.)

Your total research rate seems less than I was getting out my three cities even with my early third city expenses (which were balance by a gold mine), but you might have been getting up to speed much sooner. Which must make the difference.

When I went Masonry (for Rep) first I was getting CoL (for Caste) late. You had the Pyramids at 1560BC and Chicken 'Ickle by 125AD which was much better than me and suggests you got the key specialist economy components set up much sooner than me. Maybe that is your key.

Your Grt Lib at 375AD must have helped. Mine was too late and my light bulbs pushed me towards CS but I was already well behind the curve for an 800AD result by then.


Research Route: I'd love to know your tech route. Particularly to the early key techs - B/W, Masonary, Priesthood and Writing.

I assume in your strat you can skip Monarchy, Calendar and Iron-working. (Although as I needed Ironworking it also turned out to be helpful in avoiding researching Hunting/Archery, and going for axe to defeat barbie archers. I notice that you coped with just 8 warriors in defence. They killed 3 archers and you didn't encounter axe. I had real trouble with barbie archers.)

Can you remember the order in which you took the key mid-techs - Metal Casting, Alphabet, CoL? I'm assuming that the order for the last five is less critical - Lit, Maths, Theo, Philo, Music.



Obviously you don't have to offer any advice if you want to set the next challenge ;) (which I'll pass on). But I'd be interested to see if changing my tech route and wonder order, but using my original city placement, does shave 200 years off my score. I think it might.

Thanks,
Raiser

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After 3 or 4 more attempts, I've reached an important conclusion: Oracle->MC->forge->engineer->GE as my 1st great person doesn't work. Both Stonehenge and Pyramids have to be postponed too long.

Raiser: If you want ShannonCT's tech and Wonder orders, just load his saved game and look in the Event Log.;) It won't tell you what was lightbulbed/Oracled, or subtleties like queue-swapping, but it'll give you dates.

peace,
lilnev

On my last attempt I now got 880 AD as finish date. But I think even if I could get a better date, this would only be due to the good advice here and not due to own ideas. :sad:

If someone is interested:

I put my first city one tile SW from starting, the second one on the silks in the northwest and the third in the northeast were I could grab gold, copper and pig.

I also created a fourth city, but it was always only size 1. Created to grab the marble. I know for sure that this is the reason I couldn't get a better date (probably in the 700) because I lost two workers due to a barb attack when an archer killed my axe which stood in the woods to save my workers... great luck I think :lol: I still had 3 trees in my capital and I probably would have gotten the last techs some turns faster without worrying about the fourth city. The really :smoke: move was still to build the fourth city after I finished the Great Library and connect the marble around 6 turns before the finish of Sistine. :crazyeye:

One thing I noticed is that the biggest problem is the research. In this game now I was lucky in founding Hinduism (wanted an early religion for Org. Rel) but then needed so much other stuff which took so much time to research that I think half of the wonders were build before I could crab Mono. This probably is also because of my try to get Stonehenge in the first city, Forge (+Pyramids later) in second city and Oracle in third. Which worked out good and leaded to my first (and only one) GE. Unfortunately I had to use him on the Colossus because I feared that Kyrus is about to build it. This wouldn't be of so much trouble if I hadn't also know that Togu tries to grab the Great Lighthouse which therefore had also to be finished in some turns. I think I would probably be better off going for early Library and Pyramids for 6 Beaker-Scientists.

However, maybe somebody is interested in the first few techs I researched:

1. Mysticism (from Goody Hut)
2. Animal Husbandry
3. Poly
4.+5. Mining, Fishing (don't know which was first one, but I think Fishing would be better as this is close to the time when I builded the second city)
6. Priesthood
7. Bronzeworking

I really don't know which were the techs after this but I think I've gone for Writing (after Pottery for Metal Casting with the Oracle), Maths, Alpha. Somewhere inbetween has to be Sailing I think.

Some minor things I noted in all my attempts:

Oracle and Stonehenge should be finished before 1000 BC (as this seems to be the date when the AI builds it), Toku goes for the Great Lighthouse, so this should also be build sooner rather than later. I'm not sure if any AI goes for the Colossus. In all my attempts it was never build from any AI. Also the late wonders shouldn't be much of a problem.

btw: I had in most (if not any) of my attempts at least one AI which declared on me. Don't know if I did something wrong here, but the always demand Wonder techs from me (which I only give when I have finished it) and want me to don't trade with their worst enemy, what I don't like to give in, because the AI I stopped trading won't speak the whole game with me after that.

A couple more runs modifying my strategy a bit to focus more on hammer production resulted in a 540 AD finish with 3 cities and the same 12 wonder list. I'm not sure there's much room for improvement on this. This feels like a Medieval space race and it's pretty fun.

Rather than ShannonCT's approach of taking metal casting from Oracle, I went with early Monotheism to get the production bonus from Organized Religion instead. I also stayed with the Oracle-CoL plan for caste system so as not to waste time building unnecessary libraries.

Thanks to Scherbchen for the AH-from-hut trick and Patagonia for the marble location, but imo founding on that marble loses as much as it gains since your 3rd city is terrible.

If you don't care going the "pop a hut"-strategy a bit longer: I found, but only because of the advice from scherbchen, a way to get three techs from them.

Go N with warrior, SW with settler. Build your city and start a warrior. Change tile so it will be finished in 5 turns. Wait a turn with the warrior then pop AH (as Scherbchen suggested). Go with your warrior 4 NW and 2 N and pop the hut for Mining. The finished warrior in the city goes two NE and pops fishing.

Though I'm not sure if getting one tech for free is worth "losing" 5 turns at the start before the city starts the worker.

I managed to get 5 techs by hut popping yesterday, Animal husbandry, Bronze and iron working, writting and sailing. I was doing wonderfully, but I neglected my defense and montezuma attacked me, stealing my third city :cry: :cry: :cry:

I only remember the steps to pop up AH, BW and Writting. I can give the directions if anybody wants to try that route. It involves popping two scouts, so there is a lot of room for improvement.

One question. WHen you say the closing date is sunday 5th at midnight. Is that GTM midnight time or midnight in NY or Los Angeles?

To answer Raiser's question:



- Looking closer I see that you started Pyramids in your first city, and Henge and Oracle in your second. That certainly helps with getting the first GE and raising the chance of a second.

The problem I was finding was that I was loosing the Oracle to the AI's. In the end I had to skip the Henge to focus on settlers and getting the Oracle by 1500BC. But I guess that I shouldn't have given up on leaving the Oracle until later as you got it twice at about 1000BC.


Yes, I went with this strategy every time. I wanted to guarantee that my first Great Person would be a GE and second would probably be a GP for Theology. Plus I wanted early Representation for my specialist economy and for some crucial happiness in the capital. Getting the Henge and Oracle in my second city puts the second city on pace to get the first Great Person but I finished a forge (for the engineer) and Parthenon in the capital and just barely got the GE in the capital before second city got a GP.

As far as the race to the Oracle, I scrapped a couple games where Ghandi beat me to it. There's some random element there. Other games, I won the race because Ghandi was slower. The Oracle is obviously a must have. But getting it too early (before the Henge) would have meant delaying Masonry and BW, and therefore the Henge and Mids.

- I looked at US to finish fast, but it didn't add up. I needed to speed to my last wonder-tech and at that point I used my one GE to complete one wonder and slavery worked out quicker on the other as I was pop 11 by then.

So no need to switch off the research. (I pessimistically put the research into Monarch to allow Divine Right in case I lost the last wonder to an AI.)


You can actually use Slavery AND US to speed the last wonder(s). If you have something else in the build queue, whip it and let the overflow go into the wonder. With unmodded vanilla CIV4, there's no 50% penalty for the overflow. Then use US to use up your money. If you're teching at a reasonable rate, there's no way the AI is going to beat you to the later wonders.


- Research Speed: Where I, and I think a lot of people here, are having the biggest problem is in maintaining fast research for the last 5 techs. I'm sure it's this lack of research that is pushing the date for 800AD to 1100AD, not the lack of production, as I have too many fallow periods where I don't have a wonder to build. (Therefore I don't feel that your lucky popping of 2 GE's is "the key" that makes your 740AD result so impressive.)

You seem to have your tech-rate sorted. But it's difficult for me too see where you are getting it from?

In your 740AD save you have max of +9 excess food in Thebes for 4 scientists and +5 excess food in Memphis for a couple more. Assuming you had the population (can't see cos you whipped hard at the end) you could have worked a maximum of 9 triple-coin water titles in addition. And you had no real luxuries (I'm excluding your lucky Gems pop in Memphis as you did just as well in your similar 800AD attempt without getting the Gems.)

Your total research rate seems less than I was getting out my three cities even with my early third city expenses (which were balance by a gold mine), but you might have been getting up to speed much sooner. Which must make the difference.

Right, it's not all about getting GE's. Teching fast is just as important. In my 740AD game, I used a GP for Theology and a GS for Philosophy. Two big techs there. I went for Writing/Alphabet/Literature quickly to get a library and two scientists in my capital, and later the GL for two more scientists. Four early scientists is huge, and makes for a good chance to get a GS for Philosophy. You dont need to wait for Caste System to start running scientists. I don't know how your budget looked but I ran at 100% research practically the whole game until I got my needed techs. I made sure that I disbanded any units that I had to pay for, and my orginal hut gold was enough to pay my small city maintenance costs until I could start selling techs to the AIs who had Currency.

It seems like your three good cities could in time outtech my two good cities and one crappy marble city. But I think my capital became a powerhouse faster with the Pyramids, forge, library, Parthenon, and GL. 5 specialists under Representation with the library bonus = a lot of beakers. Building two settlers early seems to be hurting you.

Research Route: I'd love to know your tech route. Particularly to the early key techs - B/W, Masonary, Priesthood and Writing.

I assume in your strat you can skip Monarchy, Calendar and Iron-working. (Although as I needed Ironworking it also turned out to be helpful in avoiding researching Hunting/Archery, and going for axe to defeat barbie archers. I notice that you coped with just 8 warriors in defence. They killed 3 archers and you didn't encounter axe. I had real trouble with barbie archers.)

Can you remember the order in which you took the key mid-techs - Metal Casting, Alphabet, CoL? I'm assuming that the order for the last five is less critical - Lit, Maths, Theo, Philo, Music.

Tech route started with AH, Mining, BW, Masonry, Myst, Poly, Preisthood. When the Oracle was close to completion, I went for Pottery so I could take MC with the Oracle. I threw in Fishing and Sailing somewhere. Then Writing, CoL, Alpha, Lit. I didn't want to risk someone beating me to CoL because I needed a religion for the happiness and Organized Religion bonus. But Literature is quite nice to get early. The GL is a powerful wonder, and cheap with marble.

I got Meditation and Math, along with some other dead end techs, in trades with the AI. Last techs I researched were Music and Currency (to take all of the AIs money and rush the last wonder).

The barbs were pretty insiginificant in my games. I built only warriors in my 740AD game. I put up some fogbusters on forested hills and let the barbs kill themselves. I saw a couple axemen but I lured them over to Ghandi, who killed them for me. Ghandi, Caesar, and Toku all started hemming me in and took care of the barb problem.

Responses to strat comments by ShannonCt, lilnev, Serdoa and uberfish in the spoiler:

Thanks for the reply ShannonCT. (In answer to lilnev I haven't tended to wade through the event logs on these challenges because I like hearing peoples reasoning behind their choices. I like to encourage a more expanded report on their strats. :))

What I've learned on this challenge so far is that I’m very reliant on a cottage economy in my general MP and SP game. There are many discussions on this forum about the strength of The Cottage over a specialist economy and I tend to subscribe to them. Although a hybrid strategy is very robust.

Anyway I put a lot of stock in getting 'good' land early (plenty of 2F tiles and a couple of food sources) for my swaths of cottages, and so I agree with you that here I loose out while rushing two settlers.

Plus I need to supplement my scientists with earlier free Great Library scientists.


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Serdoa did well (880AD) with the same 3 city locations as my recent attempt, including the Gold, Pig, Bronze city. So I'm glad it was a valid choice, even though I didn't make the most of it.


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Congrats to uberfish for 540AD and for completing it in only 54 minutes!

I'm surprised that you went for your second city on the salt water to the north near the Pigs and Iron rather than the salt water city on the Silk, but I guess that the fact none of it’s 5 hills and Iron were under jungle paid off.

And obviously skipping the run to Marble and taking the mine-heavy Gem city as a third was the way to go.

Plus not separating out the early GE wonders from the early GP wonders didn't seem to hurt. Did you use many Great Engineers?

You mentioned your early Mono for OrgRel, as well as getting CoL to by-pass the need for Libraries, but I think getting Alpha at 650BC and obtaining Pottery and B/W in trade after Alpha contributed the most to your 200 year jump to a 540AD finish. Kudos! :thumbsup:

I've become very reliant on chop/whipping settlers but obviously it is not necessary here.

When you say the closing date is sunday 5th at midnight. Is that GTM midnight time or midnight in NY or Los Angeles?In previous challenges we have said the posted saves are valid as long as it is before midnight Sunday "somewhere in the world".

Not sure where the last place to get midnight is, but you don't have to live there for your post to count. It's an informal challenge. As long as we all get two full weekends that’s fine by me. Let's say the winner is crowned Monday morning-ish and leave it at that.



Yeah, so I've still got time to have one more crack at this Medieval Space Race (as long as my Neverwinter Nights 2 still hasn't turned up in the post :( ) and now I've got plenty of ideas for inspiration. Thanks.



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This challenge is a cool idea, I've been lurking the forums and playing GOTM, but hadn't seen these until this one.

I just played it once through, ending date 1430, so not spectacular. My two main problems were a war with Monty, and a period where I was without wonders to build.

I ended up with 4 cities:

Thebes, with the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Great Library, Sistene Chapel, and Spiral Minaret.

Memphis, with Colossus (built very late, wasn't even planning to get it, but worked out because I lost on Angkor Wat), Parthenon, and Chichen Itza.

Heliopolis, with Oracle and Notre Dame

Elephantine, with Versailles and Hanging Gardens.

Versailles completed last, I was at full cash and UniSuff, but a GE popped before I could afford to buy it anyway ;)

Without really trying, I founded Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam.

I probably won't get a chance to play it again, but I'm sure I could shave some time off, by builidng up my anti-Monty defenses better earlier, and changing my tech path around to not get caught short on Wonders.

Well, my second* try ended in 1200. I missed the Great Lighthouse and had to research Divine Right to get the Spiral Minaret. Then forgot I had the Pyramids and I could rush buy. So I used US only for Spiral Minaret right at the end.

I had three cities but they were quite small (low on food). There are certainly other better placements among the other saves, I'll take a look at them later.

Oddities:
- had a war with Monty: brought all my axes where the invasion took place, traded for horses with Cyrus then built a few War Chariots. No problem.
- phony war with Toku, killed an archer or two, and just as I finished the challenge a War Elephant entered my territory. Started building Spears in all three cities, but it wasn't my problem anymore. :D
- got only one GE, used it to build Sistine Chapel.

All in all, a pretty cool challenge. :goodjob: Many thanks to Garath for setting this up.

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* I lost the Oracle in the first try due to a bad research path... Decided to restart.

Well Wonder Woman and her wily ways has defeated me. :rolleyes:

Thought I try a few more times before the challenge ended. When I pushed hard I got beaten up by the barbies or by a sulky Monty. If didn't push hard I ended up loosing wonder races and ended with a best score of 1130AD. Not impressive.

Felt good about this attempt took Uberfish's idea for the second city on the water to the north, but I then took a different place for the 3rd. This last city I put in a slightly better location than south-east of the Gems. By going 2 tiles east you get Gems, Dye and the Rice, plus 4 mines and some fresh water farms. Felt stronger even with the overlap and the loss of the Cows.



My best guess at 'ideal' city locations (even if I couldn't get the winning result from it ;)):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/99375/WW_city_placement.JPG



3rd city:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/99375/WW_3rd_City_location.JPGBut I ran out of time to make it work. My 1130AD attempt with these 3 cities got all pooed-up as I missed Parthenon and the Great Lighthouse and ended up having to finish with Divine Right. Boo!



Solid, if some-what frustrating, challenge. With hindsight I think 7 Wonders at Monarch might have been better. :blush:

Still too late now, so roll on the next one!



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I'm really impressed on Uberfish date. One of the reasons: I found a way to pop 6 techs (Fishing, Sailing, AH, Pottery, Bronzeworking, Mining) and still couldn't compete with his time. Only 1 attempt of a few I tried today (after knowing how to get 6 techs) was near the date and maybe could have beaten it. But then Togu declared. He only had archers so no problem at around 300 AD with Axe... Arc... Warriors :eek: 3 to say the truth. Thinking about it, I was really impressed at how I managed it to not get beaten up earlier :lol:

Anyway a real nice game. :) Though that I found out the way for 6 techs I would really like to have challenges without huts because in the end it felt like cheating somehow. Imagine having the following techs at 3000 BC (so after 25 turns if I didn't miscalculate):

Fishing
The Wheel
Agri
Mysticism
Mining
Sailing
Pottery
AH
Polytheism
Bronzeworking
only some turns to go for Masonry

I'm sure somebody with more skill then me could have probably get a even more impressive date then Uberfish. ;)

Raiser - At Heliopolis, ignoring the overlapped hills which could also be used by Memphis, you gained one jungled grassland hill and the dyes (tiles which can't be worked until late) and lost the cow which is +3 production right from the city's founding and fresh water access. I don't think it's a good trade. After the first run I did I realised that calendar resources weren't important because they came too late, and the happiness from them wasn't needed as size 8 is enough to work all mines and specials anyway. This led me to the Northeast location for my second city which had stronger production instead. As far as commerce goes, apart from the gem mine and a few turns of working lake tiles at Heliopolis to build population pre-IW all my research was done by specialists too (just assigning scientists instead of mines at cities #2 and #3 when I needed the research more than production)

Serdoa - wow, you got every hut to pop a tech? I do agree that it can lead to really artificial situations under the rules of these challenge which allow replays, so it would probably be better without huts.

Well, I guess I should declare this vaguely closed at some point, since it was meant to run until Sunday.

So Congratulations to Uberfish for his runaway victory in this challenge.

I'll update the leaderboard and stuff when it's not 3am. Sorry for not having done that more regularly, but my 'net access has been a tad spotty this week.

So, who's got ideas to suggest to uberfish for the next challenge?

Garath, ex-First Citizen

@uberfish

First: Congratulations :)

On to your question:

Yes, every hut I popped was a tech. And this really led to a point were the fun was gone. I tried to see if it is possible to beat your date with that but everytime lost my focus because of thinking what sense it would make to compare your and my attempt. Maybe I will give it a try now, knowing that it won't be compared any longer and so I won't take a unfair advantage in this challenge. I mean I have now a free week (getting 30 days of vacation per year is great) what else should I do? ;)

So, who's got ideas to suggest to uberfish for the next challenge?

GP Score by fixed date ( 1600 AD, or there abouts ).

GP Score is the number of GP points accumulated in all cities, as shown in the domestic advisor, plus the number of points required for the next GP.

So, who's got ideas to suggest to uberfish for the next challenge?

Garath, ex-First Citizen

Just throwing ideas around, how about a teching one where the winner is the first to tech eg. Astronomy,Nationalism and Rep parts. It would require good use of GPP, but be easier to see when you won. Even make it earlier, first to tech Guilds,Music,Engineering.
Maybe the first to found Islam, spread it to all your cities and build the spiral Minaret.

Earliest date to have access to at least one each of all health and luxury resources (except hits) on a Terra map.

I'd like a growth challenge :
"big fat one" : biggest city in 1000 AD
or
"mine is bigger than yours" : most total population in 1000 AD.

It's something I'm not too good at (happy whipper :(), and it would be a eye opener...

Maybe a archipelago map and winner is who first conquers X amount of islands.

Congratulations uberfish for the uber-early date! :goodjob:

Just one thing for the new challenge. It would be great to remove the huts altogether from the map. Whatever the challenge, it seems pretty obvious that there are ways in which it can be influenced by them. And I'd rather spend my time on trying different strategies than at trying to maximize hut output. Too bad there's no options to turn them off in vanilla like in Warlords.

I still like the sound of the "Taoist in Tokyo" idea that was proposed (by mice I think) back at the beginning of the challenge series:

Earliest date for the player to have a Taoist missionary stood in a Tokugawa-owned Tokyo.

It's a bit more eclectic than some of the other suggestions, but would be fun to play out.

thanks guys!

I was thinking of doing one where you had to abolish slavery by making everyone switch out of it, but I think that might be too straightforward. So I'll probably go with one of the population related ideas if people think that's fun. I will try and get rid of huts too.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Congrats Uberfish!

If your going population somebody back in the 'Let's get Cultural' suggested using the 4th city as the target to make things more interesting. Seems like it could be used here.
i.e. Fatties: First person to hit 18 population in their fourth largest city.

That type of challenge could incorporate growth, happiness and an avoidance of whipping.



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So I'll probably go with one of the population related ideas if people think that's fun.

Highest population in a 'new world' city on terra map?

Idea of highest population sounds good for me. :goodjob:

Congratulations Uberfish. :goodjob:

Have you guys ever thought about making a summary thread to keep track of the winners and the challenges? that could be stickied somewhere. Maybe that would be too formal. Looking forward to the new challenge.

Whatever challenge we decide to run this was waaay to builderish for my taste. Seemed kinda like sim city where you were racing to build everything finished and get lucky and not hit by natrual catastropes(wars) I didnt even manage to finish 1 run:(. That said i like the population idea. How about highest total pop at 1800 ad on a huge terramap or something?

1800 AD looks too late, IMHO. I'd prefer 1000 AD. It is something you can play in a couple of hours.

I think the biggest consideration for the date on a population game should be biology. Do we want biology to be reachable? And if so, at what point in the game? The biggest "new world" city could be interesting, as other techs besides biology would be needed for a good finish (astronomy comes to mind). If we do do a pop. challange, that would get my vote. Another consideration is banning heridtary rule, as I think that may become an easy way to get over the happiness barrier.

I also wouldn't mind a diplomacy challenge. We just had a builder/tech challenge, and a pop. challenge will probably be just like that. Something to do with Tokugawa would be interesting.

taoist missionary in kyoto is interesting, that's true
short challenge probably, but interesting

my idea with biggest city in 1000 AD was not to focus on biology, but to manage health and happiness + food in the early/mid game. Everyone can farm every tile using biology. No skill involved.
But can you overcome all the caps?

Although, the idea about size of 4th city may even be better (no "dirty" globe theater trick ;) ), I don't understand why 4 and not 2 or 3.

After some more thoughts, maybe size of the 3 biggest cities would be best (valuing a good use of globe and such tricks)?

I would prefer biggest 3... or maybe biggest population count? that could probably mean that also the warmongers have something to do besides building.

1000 AD also looks like a good date. I wouldn't take away any options like Here. Rule. Especially if we would go for pop. count.

I would prefer biggest 3... or maybe biggest population count? that could probably mean that also the warmongers have something to do besides building.

1000 AD also looks like a good date. I wouldn't take away any options like Here. Rule. Especially if we would go for pop. count.

Even for biggest 3, capturing a size 18 city is easier than growing it AFAIK.
Especially if we play on a level higher than noble.
I'd go for monarch or emperor level (for a change ;) ), enjoy the lower health and happiness :rolleyes:

We saw with Uberfish's game that city placement was key, and this would certainly apply with a population game

It would really benefit from repeated attempts, so I like the earlier date too.

Maybe not the three biggest, but highest population with only three cities allowed.

I think 1000 ad was the best idea, I would rather the game not be a race to biology or astronomy as it dictates strategy too much. I think the best measure to use is probably population as shown on the demographics screen, so that the best strategy isn't obvious.

I think 1000 ad was the best idea, I would rather the game not be a race to biology or astronomy as it dictates strategy too much. I think the best measure to use is probably population as shown on the demographics screen, so that the best strategy isn't obvious.

:worship: our first citizen

I think 1000 ad was the best idea, I would rather the game not be a race to biology or astronomy as it dictates strategy too much. I think the best measure to use is probably population as shown on the demographics screen, so that the best strategy isn't obvious.

Cept, of course, for those who played Epic REDACTED

So the new challange will be called "Lemmings"?

scherbchen the thing is, goody huts never give the same thing, so for you it might be AH but for someone else, it might be a map, you never know. that is why most of the games like this disable goody huts, because they are to random

scherbchen the thing is, goody huts never give the same thing, so for you it might be AH but for someone else, it might be a map, you never know. that is why most of the games like this disable goody huts, because they are to random

But the problem is that if you take the same path to the goody hut it will always pop the same thing. In a challenge like this, where you can reload from the start, that is a problem. For example, someone found a hut path this last challenge that popped 6 techs.

i still agree with flamingzaroc though, as sometimes (in my experience, i might be wrong) going the exact same route and hitting a hut the same turn as before will yield a different outcome. in most games i replayed there appeared to be two paths (cultural challenge for example) or two different spawns for huts. the first hut on my route either yielded 108 gold then the 2nd hut would give me a map if i remember correctly, or the first hut yielded 30ish gold then the second would pop a tech. going the same path both times.

still this is abusable imho (just reload) and i too would prefer hut-less challenges.

speaking of challenges, is a new one in the making?

i still agree with flamingzaroc though, as sometimes (in my experience, i might be wrong) going the exact same route and hitting a hut the same turn as before will yield a different outcome.

I'm fairly certain that you are not quite remembering your experience exactly.

The AI is deterministic - given the same set of inputs, the AI will respond precisely the same way. The seed for the random number generator is loaded at startup, and any given seed will always spit out the same "random" numbers in the same sequence. The only truly random element in the game is the human player(s).

If you change the number of times the RNG is touched prior to a "random" event, you change the outcome of that event (although lots of the possible outcomes are duplicates - it may not be easy to determine what happened). So the butterfly effect is in full force - you inadvertantly reveal a different tile than in your previous plays, so the barbarian axeman spawns there instead of here, which means that instead of moving it engages in combat (lots of dicerolls), and now your Bronzeworking hut is instead coughing up healing.

Hut poping is very abusable. On the ironman challenge i found a hut path that yielded 6 techs and 300 gc i belive. + some scounts and maps.

put like that it maks a lot more sense than my superstitions voiceofunreason :)

Turning off the preservation of random seed would corrent the goody hut path problem, but would create the problems that someone could just load their ave until the hut popped a tech, or load a save until their axeman with 20% chance killed the archer, etc. I suppose either of the new problems would fall under the honor code clause of the challenges; that is, not restarting from an old save on a given try, but it seems silly to make it too easy.

Any news on the new challenge? Am I just not seeing it in the forum?

I think I'll have the time to post a challenge this weekend, most probably city-size related, since that's what most of us seemed to want. If everybody's ok with this, of course. :)

Challenge #8 is now up: Super Size Me! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192940)