FALL FROM HEAVEN
RISE OF MANIA (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4088)
(with apologies for the lame subtitle)

Updated to FfH version 22h.

Welcome to the biggest and most ambitious mod for Fall from Heaven (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1)! With a changelog of already over eleven pages I hope to make the FfH experience better and better. Hopefully with your help.

The focus of this mod is to increase the value of currently underused options and make everything more balanced, so you can enjoy all aspects of the game to the fullest. Balance work means lots and lots of minor changes and tweaks, many of which a casual player might not even notice. So it’s hard to name “big new features” for this mod. You have to try it yourself. I promise you will like it, as these people have:

"LOVE what you have done with the mod" -- daladinn
"Nice work!" -- CXDamian
"OMFG" -- daladinn
"Love the mod" – Owain
"Maniac did an amazing job, I would highly recommend that anyone who likes FfH should try out Rise of Mania!" -- Kael
"have to say this has imho replaced the current evolution from FFH..." -- daladinn
"It's an absolute blast!" -- DieselBiscuit
"I am an addict..." -- daladinn

So join the game-playing and –testing fun and make FfH an even more awesome game!

You can download the file here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4088). It contains a changed Assets folder to copy over a fully patched FfH installation. Put the zipped file in the main FfH directory, right-click on it and “Extract to here”. You can either make a seperate FfH copy especially for Rise of Mania if you play both a lot, or just put it over your regular install. If you want to go back to regular FfH, simply reinstalling the latest official patch does the trick.

The following posts contain:
Requests to the FfH team
Thematic changelog
Changelog per file

REQUESTS TO THE FFH TEAM


In case they’re reading this thread, I thought I’d put this on top, to make sure I still have their attention. ;) I have two requests for features which I believe would make the game more interesting and balanced, but which AFAIK can’t be done in Python or XML.


First is the addition of a spending cap à la Civ2. That is, you can only set your taxes/science/culture as high as eg 70%. For modding ease, most useful would be the ability to set the default cap in GlobalDefines.xml, and also have the option to change the spending cap with certain civics, ie in Civ4CivicInfos.xml.

Currently in Civ4, due to the absence of a spending cap, there is no meaningful difference between gold and beakers, and it’s always best to try and set your science slider as high as possible. A Great Merchant, a holy city, the Runes of Kilmorph… are just alternative ways to boost your science production. This reduces the uniqueness of other game features, such as the Ashen Veil for instance. On the other hand in SMAC you had an Economy social engineering factor which boosted energy and commerce production, and an Efficiency SE factor, which reduced energy waste and allowed to set your sliders higher. Thus you had Morgan Industries, who had a superb economy but only average efficiency. As a consequence their tax and science sliders had to stay the same, which caused an abundance of cash with which they could eg hurry production. You had the Gaians, who had a below average economy but high efficiency, so they had the advantage of high flexibility and adaptability. Then you had the Cybernetic Consciousness, who had a normal economy, high efficiency and a research bonus, so their best strategy was to research as much as possible. A fourth possible combination would be giving a civ money production bonuses, so they would do good setting their gold slider as high as possible, and act as a trader and middleman to get their techs. Four different playstyles in other words where there’s only one in Civ4.

To have no change, the default spending cap could just be set to 100%.


Second is the request for more control over great people production. Currently you can only set the increase in great people points necessary for the next GP for the first couple GPs. After ten GPs, the GPP increase automatically rises by 100. I’d prefer if you had two additional values in GlobalDefines.xml, one to set per how many GPs the GPP increase changes, and another with how much. I’d like to set it to -25 per 5 GPs, so that the GPP increase evolves from 150 to 125->100->…

While all other game strategies become better and more productive as the game progresses, the big exception forms great people. Great People Points give you less and less benefit for your investment the more GPs you get. This makes a specialist strategy a bad idea for the endgame, and reduces the value of the Philosophical trait. I’d like to reward instead of punish people for following a heavy GP strategy.

THEMATIC CHANGELOG


Here I’ll give some explanation about the changes I made. To just see the dry list of changes, check out the next post, the changelog per file.

Archers and Melee

Fall from Heaven inherited the system vanilla Civ4 uses: melee units are good for city raiding, and archers are good for city defense. This creates two issues. One is that due to promotions your melee army gets artificially divided into a group that’s good at city raiding, and a group that’s good at general combat. I’d prefer a smoother transition between on-the-field combat and city sieges. Second is that since the AI isn’t very good at attacking cities and since melee and recon usually also suffice for city defense, the whole archer branch of the tech tree is underused by the human player. Also, what’s the fun of a unit type that just sits the entire game idle in a city? With the changes I made melee and archer units still keep their original purpose, but archers are now also good to use outside of cities.

The changes which mainly affect melee. Most melee units can slightly bombard city defenses (think long sieges to starve out cities). Pikemen gain extra strength with weapons promotions.

1. City Raider and Garrison I now requires Combat I or Drill I. City Raider and Garrison II now requires Combat III or Drill III.
2. Melee units can learn the City Garrison promotions.
3. City raider III gives a 20% combat bonus against archery units instead of melee.
4. Warrior can bombard city defenses 1% per turn.
5. Soldier of Kilmorph can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
6. Axeman can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
7. Maceman can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
8. Pikeman can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
9. Immortal, Berserker, Shield Wall, Spartiatoi can bombard 2% per turn.
10. Most Pikemen require Constitution instead of Metal Casting. Various hammer cost adjustments. Copper suffices to build the unit. Exceptions: Boarding Party requires Astronomy. Gargoyle is unchanged. Ogre, Illian and Calabim Pikeman still require Metal Casting.
11. Mithril Weapons provide +3 instead of +4 strength. Doviello Phalanx, Berserker & Immortal increased +1 in strength.
12. Axeman doesn’t have a +10% city attack bonus.
13. Production speed of the Training Yard instead of Shipyard is now doubled with the Aggressive trait.
14. Melee units can get Barrage 2 & 3.
15. Berserker (except the Balor) starts with Barrage 1.
16. Doviello melee and archer units now have normal costs. Doviello can still build Forge.
17. Only melee mounted units, Minotaurs and the axeman line can get weapons promotions. Axeman cannot get Iron Weapons. Axeman and Maceman cannot get Mithril Weapons. Melee units still require metal resources. Strength of the other melee unit readjusted to pre-Fire.

The changes which mainly affect archers. Instead of a 50% city defense bonus, archers get extra strength against melee and ranged cavalry, or extra first strikes. The promotion prerequisites have been reworked to allow Drill as an alternative to Combat to gain the more special promotions.

1. Archer can learn the City Raider promotions.
2. Drill I gives one extra first strike instead of first strike chance.
3. Archer gets the Attack, Reserve and Counter unit AIs.
4. Archer loses +50% city defense, but gains +50% vs melee, and +50% defense versus (Nomadic) Chariot and (Nomadic) Horse Archer. Except +25% vs melee and mounted archers for Elven Archer.
5. Crossbowman gains +50% defense against Chariot and Horse Archer.
6. Longbowman loses +25% city defense but gains one extra first strike. No longer requires any resource. Gains the Attack, Reserve and Counter Unit AIs.
7. Gilden Silveric loses +25% city defense, but gains the Woodsman I promotion. Gains the Attack, Reserve and Counter Unit AIs.
8. Flurry and Marksman require Silk instead of metal resources.
9. Marksman requires Combat IV or Drill IV or Forest Stealth.
10. Heroic Strength I now requires Hero and Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
11. Amphibious now requires Combat II or Drill II.
12. Blitz now requires Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
13. Sentry now requires Combat III or Drill III.
14. Shock I requires Combat I or Drill I.
15. Shock II requires Shock I and (Combat III or Drill III).
16. Formation requires Combat II or Drill II.
17. Cover requires Combat I or Drill I.

Mounted units

I’ve done several things which make the cavalry techline more attractive. Here I’ll specifically mention I’ve split the cavalry line into a ranged cavalry line and a melee cavalry line. They go as follows:

Ranged cavalry: Chariot -> Horse Archer -> Camel Archer & War Chariot
Melee cavalry: Horseman -> Knight -> War Elephant & Royal Guard

Ranged cavalry’s specialty is withdrawal chance. Melee cavalry doesn’t have that, but they can gain higher strength with the Bronze, Iron and in some cases Mithril Weapons promotions.

1. Hippus Palace provides Law mana instead of Horse. Hippus mounted units no longer require Horse.
2. Horseman, Knight, Royal Guard and War Elephant can get Weapons promotions. Horseman cannot get Mithril Weapons.
3. New Unique Unit added, replacing the (Nomadic) Horse Archer for the Luchuirp, Khazad and Clan of Embers: the (Nomadic) Light Chariot. Same stats as the (Nomadic) Horse Archer. Requirements: Horse, Military Strategy, Construction, Archery and an Archery Range.
4. Knight is no longer a national unit: can be built infinitely.
5. Chariot changes to strength 3, cost 60, gains one first strike chance, tech requirements of Crafting and Archery, building requirement of Archery Range, resource requirement of Horse, and upgrades to Horse Archer.
6. Horse Archer loses immunity to first strikes. They upgrade to War Chariot and no longer Knight.
7. Horseman loses the Cover I promotion and 25% withdrawal chance (Raider keeps 10%), but gains immunity to first strikes. Cost set to 90. Horseman only upgrades to Knight and Sir NAITM.
8. Knight -6 strength, -35% withdrawal chance (Hippus retains 10%), 180 cost, tech requirement Chivalry. Upgrades to Royal Guard and War Elephant.
9. Royal Guard now only upgrades to War Elephant.
10. War Elephant is reduced by -2 strength and no longer has a withdrawal chance, except of course the Hippus who retains 10%. Requires Large Animal Domestication.

Disciples

1. Disciple units can learn the Amphibious, Blitz, City Raider and City Garrison promotions.
2. Monk requires Religious Law instead of Priesthood.

Naval units

In general increasing the options available to naval units. Cargo capacity has been increased a little.

1. Naval units are also affected by the Magic Resistance trait.
2. Naval units can learn the Accuracy, Drill II, Drill III, Drill IV promotions.
3. Accuracy requires Construction.
4. Navigation I no longer has a promotion requirement (was Flanking I).
5. Galley, Caravel and Galleon now have 2 cargo capacity. Caravel gains the Settler Sea Unit AI. Galleon gains the Sentry promotion and can sail through rival territory.
6. Frigate and Galleon require Iron Working.
7. Arcane Barge requires Alchemy instead of Sorcery.

Micromanagement reduction

In Fall from Heaven, if you’re playing the Malakim and want to have a Beastmaster, you shouldn’t build it directly. No, you should build a Lightbringer, upgrade it to a Disciple of Leaves, then upgrade it to a Ranger and only then to a Beastmaster. As a consequence you’ll have gained the Sentry, Medic I and Woodsman I promotions for free. If you’re playing the Khazad and want a Shield Wall, you should build a Dwarven Soldier, upgrade it to a Pikeman and then to a Shield Wall. Result: Dwarven and Guerilla II for free. Two of numerous examples. These kinds of micromanagement tricks may be fun for a casual player, but in a multiplayer environment the person who knows most of these tricks will win. As a consequence everyone will be forced to constantly use them to compete, and they get boring very quickly. I’m a longtime SMAC player and micromanagement specialist – I know what I’m talking about. ;) I’d prefer Civ to be a strategy game instead of a micromanagement game. In addition it’s an extra reason why the AI can’t compete with a human player. That’s why I’ve made an effort to remove the need for these upgrade paths. Now you can just build a Shield Wall as the Khazad and get the promotions you would have gotten by upgrading.

There are a couple units, mostly religious units, to which you can upgrade by multiple paths, and gain different promotions as a consequence. For instance a Fellowship of Leaves ranger can get Elven by upgrading from an Archer of Leaves, or Medic I and Woodsman I from a Disciple of Leaves. Giving the ranger all three promotions would be too much, so I’ve changed the Archer of Leaves to Woodsman I as well. I’ve done some similar streamlining to the other religious units.

Even after that there were a couple cases where it wasn’t desirable or possible to streamline the promotions, so there the human player still has to upgrade him or herself to gain the maximal benefit.

Changelog:

1. The Infernal War Elephant and Royal Guard start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Death I and Undead.
2. The Hippus Royal Guard and War Elephant start with Channeling I and Chaos I.
3. Doviello Berserker starts with Shock I and Trainer.
4. The Drown can upgrade to Sir Not Appearing In This Mod.
5. Stonewarden starts with Guerilla I, but loses Demon Slaying I.
6. Paramander starts with Guerilla I.
7. Priest of Leaves starts with Woodsman I, but loses Demon Slaying I.
8. Archer of Leaves starts with Woodsman I, but loses Elven.
9. Zealot starts with Amphibious, but loses Dwarf Slaying.
10. Cultist starts with Amphibious, but loses Demon Slaying I.
11. Savant loses Elf Slaying.
12. Ritualist starts with Scourge, but loses Demon Slaying I.
13. High Priest loses Demon Slaying I.
14. Disciple of Leaves and Savant need to be built under their state religion to start with Medic I and Woodsman I/Scourge.
15. The Enchanted Blade promotion is no longer retained after unit category switching.
16. The Flaming Arrows promotion is no longer retained after unit category switching.
17. All living non-Hero Khazad and Luchuirp units that don’t already have a race start with the Dwarven promotion.
18. All living non-Hero Ljosalfar and Svartalfar units that don’t already have a race start with the Elven promotion.
19. Dwarven Hammerfist and Dwarven Soldier start with Guerilla I instead of Guerilla II.
20. Dwarven Berserker, Khazad Pikeman, Spartiatoi and Shield Wall start with Guerilla I.
21. Paladins built under Runes or Order state religion start with Medic I.
22. Rangers, Longbowmen, Flurries, Marksmen, Druids and Beastmasters built under Fellowship of Leaves state religion start with Woodsman I.
23. Rangers and Beastmasters built under Fellowship of Leaves state religion start with Medic I.
24. Paramanders built by the AI in a city with a Brewery will start with the Dwarven promotion.
25. Stygian Guards and Eidolons built by the AI under Octopus Overlords state religion have 50-50% chance to start with Medic I and Amphibious OR with Water Walking, Undead and Vulnerable to Fire.
26. Marksmen built by the Amurite AI start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Fire I and Flaming Arrows.
27. Lanun Phalanx and Shield Wall start with Boarding.
28. Amurite Shadow starts with Channeling I and Dimensional I.
29. Amurite Flurry starts with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Fire I and Flaming Arrows.
30. Grigori Berserker starts with Courage and Dragon Slaying.
31. Bannor Spartiatoi and Shield Wall start with Guardsman.
32. Balseraph Druid and Beastmaster start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Mind I and Chaos I.
33. Balseraph Marksman and Courtesan starts with Taskmaster.
34. Brujah starts with Channeling I and II, Sorcery, Body I and Death I.
35. All possible upgrade paths of the Malakim Lightbringer start with Sentry.
36. When built, the Orc Marksman starts with Amphibious.

Upgrade paths still having loopholes:

General

Royal Guard -> War Elephant
Guardsman, Sorcery, Spirit II

Religious units

Soldier of Kilmorph -> Paramander
Dwarven

The Drown -> Stygian Guard -> Eidolon
Undead, Vulnerable to Fire, Water Walking

Zealot -> Stygian Guard -> Eidolon
Amphibious, Medic I

Unique units

Chanter -> Marksman
Channeling I & Dimensional I

Firebow -> Marksman
Channeling I/II, Fire I, Sorcery, Flaming Arrows

Guardsman -> Maceman
Guardsman

Lightbringer -> tier2 disciple
Sentry I

Lizardman Assassin -> Shadow
Orcish & Amphibious

Civics

General rebalancing of about everything to make some previously weak civics more used.

1. God King no longer provides state religion happiness. Forbidden Palace provides +2 happiness. Winter Palace +3 happiness.
2. Aristocracy: requires Monarchy. No more farm effects. Provides military happiness. Basically the former Hereditary Rule civic.
3. Republic requires Constitution.
4. Default cultural civic added: Naturalism. No effects. All civs’ initial cultural civic changed to Naturalism.
5. Religion requires Mysticism. Provides +1 happiness with Pagan Temple and no longer all five religious temples.
6. Pacifism requires Philosophy. Provides +75% Great People points.
7. Nationhood requires Fanaticism. Provides +1 happiness with Training Yard and Archery Range. Can draft three units per turn. No military production bonus anymore.
8. Basilica gives +2 happiness under Social Order.
9. Consumption no longer provides extra happiness for the Market and Inn. Instead Consumption provides 1 happiness per 20% gold spending. Gambling House de facto removed and recycled as the mechanic which provides 1 happiness per 20% gold spending.
10. Liberty requires Honor.
11. Arete provides +1 hammer to Dwarven Halls, Dwarven Town and Dwarven Metropolis.
12. Military State: Can no longer hurry with gold. Can no longer draft. Provides free unit maintenance for 25% of the population.
13. Serfdom: Can no longer hurry with gold.
14. Caste System no longer causes unhappiness in largest cities, no longer can hurry with gold, and no longer gives +1 beaker per specialist.
15. Guilds: Can no longer appoint unlimited artists. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
16. Agriculture provides +10% food production, but no more farm effects.
17. Mercantilism: Can hurry with gold. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
18. Foreign Trade: Can hurry gold.
19. Sacrifice The Weak no longer provides +10% gold, nor suffers a -20% Great People point penalty. When running the Sacrifice the Weak civic, a diseased or plagued unit that dies in combat has 1/3 chance of spawning a Diseased Corpse. Os-Gabella’s favourite civic is Sacrifice the Weak instead of Despotism.
20. Fend for Themselves gives units +1 free XP. Good AIs cannot run the Fend for Themselves civic.
21. The Grigori can run Public Healers.
22. Apprenticeship requires Archery instead of Education.
23. Under Military Discipline units gain one extra experience per combat. Not cumulative with Valor.

Nomadism

This new economic civic requires some more explanation. The effects: Requires Animal Husbandry. Low upkeep. -10% food production. Pasture provides +1 hammer. Can draft three nomadic units per turn, two pop per unit. Can build nomadic chariot, nomadic horseman, nomadic horse archer.
Of course having moving cities would be most fitting for a Nomadism civic, but barring that, I figured being able to draft nomadic units was the closest equivalent. Then you can still evacuate some forces if a “city” is threatened. So what do these three nomadic units do? They somewhat resemble their “sedentary” counterparts, except:
1) They don’t have a buildings prerequisite. No need to build stables or an archery range.
2) They can found cities.
3) They can build pastures.
4) The Nomadic Horse Archer has strength 6.
5) The Nomadic Horseman costs 120 hammers and have strength 4.
6) The Nomadic Chariot costs 120 hammers and has strength 4 and one first strike.
The Hippus variants have one more movement point, and +10% withdrawal chance, as usual.

1. Nomadism: new Economy civic. Requires Animal Husbandry. Low upkeep. -10% food production. Pasture provides +1 hammer. Can draft three nomadic units per turn. Can build nomadic chariot, nomadic horseman, nomadic horse archer.
2. Nomadic Horseman, Chariot, Horse Archer, Raider, Hippus Chariot and Brigand added.
3. Luchuirp, Khazad and Clan of Embers can’t build Nomadic Horse Archer, but can build a Nomadic Light Chariot.
4. Minimal population for drafting lowered to one.
5. Unhappiness from drafting lowered to 2.
6. Animal Husbandry no longer requires Agriculture. Beaker cost is reduced to the same as Agriculture: 125.
7. Hippus starting tech is Animal Husbandry and initial economic civic Nomadism. Added three nomadic unique units. Rhoanna’s and Tasunke’s favourite civic is now Nomadism.
8. Scout can upgrade to Nomadic Horseman and (Nomadic) Chariot.

Terrain

The big change here is replacing the farm <-> cottage opposition as most common terrain improvement strategies by farm<->pasture, and combining the farm with the cottage->town line. Besides stopping the endless cottage spam versus specialist strategy debates ;) another good thing is it makes much more sense from a realism point of view. Large cities arise in fertile agricultural lands, and great people (or what they represent) arise in advanced civilizations (civitas = city). The opposition between farm and town is really silly.

An opposition between a sedentary and nomadic lifestyle makes more sense. The Pasture is now the low investment, low requirement improvement with average returns. The farm->metropolis line gives a higher return, but it requires a heavier investment in worker turns, and has more requirements (freshwater). It also takes longer to upgrade to the next improvement. First reason: everything takes longer to build in FfH; so should terrain improvements. Second reason: I want to make towns even more important to protect. Makes for some more interesting warfare I think. The pillage rewards are also significantly increased.

1. War Machine settlement destruction adapted to new terrain improvements.
2. Plantation and Winery provides +2 commerce with Taxation.
3. Quarry provides +1 hammer with Engineering.
4. Pasture can be built on all Plains, Grassland, Tundra, Broken Lands and Fields of Perdition. Pasture provides +1 hammer, +1 gold. +1 gold with Stirrups and +1 hammer with Large Animal Domestication. Pasturing a horse and cow provides one less hammer. Pasturing a pig and sheep one less food.
5. Camp provides +2 commerce with Animal Mastery.
6. Farm/Terrace: Pillaging provides 10 gold. Upgrades to Village in 30 turns.
7. Village provides one more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 30 gold. Upgrades to Town in 60 turns.
8. Town provides two more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 45 gold. Upgrades to Metropolis in 120 turns.
9. Metropolis provides three more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 60 gold.
10. Dwarven Mine upgrades to Dwarven Halls in 30 turns.
11. Dwarven Halls provide one more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Halls upgrade to Dwarven Town in 60 turns.
12. Dwarven Town provides two more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Town upgrades to Dwarven Metropolis in 120 turns.
13. Dwarven Metropolis provides one food and two more commerce than Dwarven Mine.
14. Terrace terrain improvement added. Same as farm except it can only be built on hills. Buildtime 1200. Requires Construction.
21. Build Elven Terrace option added. Same as Terrace, except it can be built on forest.
16. Fort cannot be built directly on Ancient Forest.
17. Farm and Elven Farm build time increased to 800.
18. Mine build time increased to 600.
19. Build Town, Dwarven Town & Elven Town option added. Buildtime 10000. Requires Mercantilism.
22. Orc Worker can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation and Terrace in Jungle. Jungle no longer gives -1 Food.
23. Dwarven Worker cannot build Farm, Terrace or Pasture. Builds Dwarven Farm/Terrace and Workshop instead. Mud Golem builds Workshop instead of Pasture.
24. Dwarven Farm & Terrace added. Does not upgrade to the urban line and only provides 5 gold for pillaging.
25. Workshop revamped as a unique dwarven terrain improvement. Provides one hammer and one gold, plus one hammer with Machinery and plus one gold with Taxation. Can be built on flatland grass, plains, tundra, broken lands and fields of perdition. 10 gold for pillaging.
26. Captured slaves keep their race. Captured Elven and Orc settlers become slaves. Captured Dwarven, Elven and Goblin workers become slaves.
27. Dwarven Slave can no longer build Dwarven Mines. Elven Slave can no longer Build Elven Farm, Pasture, Plantation and Cottage.
28. Priest of Leaves now has the Animal AI. iAIWeight of the Nature II promotion increased to 100.
29. Ljosalfar can bloom forest under their cities.
30. Bloom Forest is possible on terrain improvements and on Jungle, but destroys the improvement. AI cannot cast on resources, town and metropolis.
31. If the AI has the Priesthood tech and follows Fellowship of Leaves as state religion, Jungle has a 6% chance each turn to turn into forest.
32. Ancient Forest now provides +1 commerce, plus an additional commerce near a river.
33. Gems can appear in Plains. They are enabled by Smelting.

Defensive withdrawal

I added defensive withdrawal, that is withdrawing to a free tile if you’re attacked. This gives ranged cavalry a more fun and special tactical role.

Rules are as follows:

The chance for defensive withdrawal = offensive withdrawal chance of the defender - offensive withdrawal chance of the attacker.

So if a horseman with Flanking I attacks a horse archer, the horse archer has a 35-20=15% chance of withdrawal.

Exception to this general rule for defensive withdrawal are:

1. Units never withdraw from a city or fort.
2. Siege units cannot withdraw.
3. Defending units cannot withdraw from Fire units or units with the Marksman promotion. No fireball dodging. ;)
4. Rooted units cannot withdraw.

Zones of Control & movement speed in general

These changes are born out of a double concern.
1) Movement speed in one’s own territory is too fast. A mere footman can walk nine tiles with Mobility I, Hasted and Engineering. Since everyone can move fast, this reduces the value of units whose specialty is supposed to be their speed: mounted and naval units.
2) Movement speed in enemy territory is too slow. This removes the possibility for any complex tactical manoeuvre in enemy territory and just changes combat in walking a big stack slowly from city to city. I’d prefer the option to have more mobile warfare strategies.

To reduce overall movement speed, road speed is no longer increased by Engineering. To increase mobility in enemy territory, the Commando promotion no longer requires Combat IV and is already enabled by the Warfare tech.

Of course, while warfare could use some more mobility, one doesn’t have to overdo it, and it should be possible to mount a defense against cavalry raging throughout your territory. That’s why I’ve added a form of zones of control around forts and cities: moving next to a fort or city reduces movement points by 1, or by ½ if the unit has the Commando promotion. Summoned units are never stopped, but neither can they get the Commando promotion, so everything remains the same for them. I’ve changed forts so that the AI builds them more.

1. Road speed no longer increased by Engineering.
2. Roads take 4 turns to build.
3. Mobility I requires Horseback Riding instead of Exploration.
4. Commando requires Warfare, but no longer Combat IV.
5. Fort provides 1 commerce; can be built on forest, jungle, new forest, grass and plains; carries irrigation; provides 5 gold after pillaging.
6. Forts disappear if an ancient forest grows in its tile.
7. Ancient Forest requires three movement points to move on.
8. Movement through Ice requires 2 movement points.
9. Roads no longer have a tech prerequisite. Road i(Flat)Movement changed to 60. Exploration changes that with -30.

Religion

The more religions you have in your cities, the better in Civ4. That doesn’t make sense in a world where the gods are at odds with each other, especially for Spiritual leaders. That’s why each non-state religion in your cities provides 1 unhappiness, and that’s why I’ve changed the Spiritual trait. Note that the combination of having a religion and the corresponding Temple in your cities still means it’s beneficial to have many religions; just not so beneficial that you would want to actively promote them spreading to your empire.

1. Each non-state religion in a city gives one unhappiness.
2. Temple production speed no longer doubled with the Spiritual trait.
3. Production speed of the Pagan Temple, Basilica, Weaponsmith, Sculptors Studio, Grove, Asylum and Demons’ Altar is now doubled with the Spiritual trait.
4. Demons’ Altar provides +15% science.
5. Weaponsmith provides +2 happiness with Arete.
6. Sculptors’ Studio provides +1 happiness with Arete.
7. When razing a holy city, a mana node is created and the razer receives a Great Prophet (or Adventurer for the Grigori).
8. A civilization must follow the Order of Junil as state religion to get double as many units with the Recruit spell.
9. The Sheaim and Kuriotates no longer suffer unhappiness from having the Cult of the Dragon in their cities.
10. Inquisitor’s national limit is now determined at python level. Under the Theocracy civic everyone but the Grigori can build three additional Inquisitors, for a total of six.

THEMATIC CHANGELOG CONTINUED

Technology & General Balance

If possible, I’d like to reduce military-only and loose end techs. By adding some more alternative paths to the same tech, shifting some building requirements and adjusting some tech costs, I hope some underused paths will become more attractive. Also, as a general rule I’m against giving more than one one-time bonus per tech.

1. Trade no longer requires Writing, but instead Horseback Riding or Sailing.
2. Constitution tech has not been removed. Constitution also enables permanent alliances.
3. Bowyers cost reduced to 1600.
4. Hunting cost reduced to 200.
5. Tracking cost reduced to 275.
6. Hunter (+8 UUs) requires Tracking instead of Hunting.
7. Animal Handling cost increased to 1600.
8. Ranger (+7 UUs) cost reduced to 120.
9. Warfare now requires Education and (Bronze Working OR Archery OR Horseback Riding).
10. Optics now requires Sailing and Calendar.
11. Medicine now requires Education and (Sanitation OR Herbal Lore). Aquae Sucellus requires Medicine instead of Sanitation.
12. Sanitation research cost doubled. Public Baths increase happiness by two instead of three.
13. Poisons renamed to Herbal Lore. Requires Calendar and Tracking. Herbalist requires Herbal Lore instead of Agriculture. Grigori Medic now requires Herbal Lore and Herbalist.
14. Drama no longer gives a free Great Artist for the first researcher. Drama gives +1 happiness in all cities. Theater reduced to cost 180. Syliven’s Perfect Lyre’s cost lowered to 400 hammers. Honor requires Drama.
15. Bowyers no longer requires Bronze Working.
16. Animal Mastery requires Bowyers instead of Iron Working.
17. Mathematics increases the hammers gained by chopping by 25%. Aquaduct requires Mathematics in addition to Sanitation. Bazaar of Mammon requires Trade instead of Currency.
19. Engineering increases worker speed by +25%. The first researcher no longer gets a Great Engineer.
20. Hippodrome requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses. Stirrups tech cost reduced by 25%.
21. Armored Cavalry renamed Chivalry. Chivalry research cost halved. Prerequisites now are Feudalism and Stirrups. War Chariot and Knight prerequisites switched again.
22. Warhorses now also requires Bowyers.
23. Domesticate Camels renamed Large Animal Domestication. Large Animal Domestication requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses. The “Domesticate Elephants” tech has been removed. War Elephant now requires Large Animal Domestication instead of Domesticate Elephants.
24. Mithril Working research cost decreased by 25% and Mithril Weapons research cost decreased by 33%.
25. Metal Casting cost halved. Blasting Powder cost increased by 50%.
26. Alchemy Lab provides +1 happiness with Gunpowder. Fireworks! Alchemy Lab increases beakers output by 25% instead of a fixed 4 beakers. Gunpowder is revealed and enabled with Alchemy. Man O’ War requires the Blasting Powder technology.
27. Elder Council requires Education instead of Mysticism.
29. Hall of Kings requires Divine Right instead of Theology.

Buildings

1. Walls cost 60 instead of 120 hammers. Walls defense bonus increased to 50%.
2. Celestial Compass requires Alteration. Double production speed with Dimensional Mana.
3. Tower of Eyes costs 500 instead of 700 hammers.
4. Forge moves back to Smelting, cost 250, +25% hammers, AiWeight 0, +1 happiness with gold (but not gems).
5. Thieves’ Guild no longer reduces gold income.
6. Siege Workshop cost lowered to 120.
7. Money Changer reduced to cost 120.

AI Improvements

1. The Barbarians get a random tier2 military tech for free if at least three other civs have researched any tier2 military tech.
2. If a civ who the AI has no borders with researches a tier 2 or 3 military tech, that AI civ will prioritize researching a tier 2 or 3 military themselves.
3. AIs without Copper/Iron/Mithril won’t prioritize researching Bronze Working/Iron Working/Mithril Weapons.
4. Evil AIs cannot research Righteousness. Only Evil AIs can research Malevolent Designs.
5. New flavours added: HONOR, MEDICINE, MELEE, ARCHERY, MILSTRAT, MOUNTED, ASTRONOMY, RECON, CURRENCY, MONARCHY, MACHINERY, SORCERY, SUMMONING, RELIGIOUSLAW, FANATICISM.
6. Leader, Tech, Building and Unit flavours changed.
7. Dragonship, Trireme and Pirate prefer Buccaneer crew. Galley and Caravel no longer prefer Longshoremen crew. Trireme no longer prefers Skeleton crew.
8. The AI no longer prefers building mana nodes of mana types it already has.
9. An Adept built by the AI doesn’t start with Free Promotion but instead with a random first level promotion of the available mana types.
10. AI more likely to pick level 2 magic promotions.
11. Summoned promotion gives 100% withdrawal chance.
12. AI can use targeted spells.
13. The Spring and Vitalize spells affect a wider area for the AI.

Miscellaneous

A list of changes that doesn’t require any special explanation.

1. Production speed of the Dungeon instead of Lighthouse is now doubled with the Organized trait.
2. Production speed of the Smokehouse instead of Harbor is now doubled with the Expansive trait.
3. Flauros changed back from Financial to Expansive.
4. Revelers are spawned in cities with a Money Changer instead of Gambling House.
5. New Infernal cities have an equal chance to start with a Stables, Hunting Lodge, Archery Range or Training Yard instead of an assured Training Yard.
6. Forge and Weaponsmith are no longer required to get Weapons promotions. The AI no longer gives top priority to building a forge.
7. Forest Stealth requires Woodsman I and (Combat II OR Woodsman II). Archer, Disciple and Mounted units can also acquire it.
8. Magic Resistance gives +40% combat bonus against the Summoned(1) promotion.
9. Woodsman II requires Woodsman I or Elven. Archery, Disciple and Mounted units can learn Woodsman II. Woodsman II has iAIWeight 10.
10. After a failed Domination attempt, spellcasters only have 20% chance of converting to the other side.
11. Demagog upgrades to Maceman and Sir Not Appearing In This Mod.
12. Dwarven Berserker, Adept, Worker, Warrior (Khazad & Luchuirp), Soldier, Hammerfist, Slinger can move through impassable terrain.
13. Cannon withdrawal chance increased to 80%.
14. Skull Catapult reduced to strength 5.
15. Righteous Cause no longer kills the caster, and can be cast by the AI.
16. The units of civilizations with the Hidden trait are now invisible in their own territory. They become visible for a turn after attacking or casting an offensive spell. Invisibility can also be toggled on and off.
17. Svartalfar: unique units/graphics added for Adept, Mage, Archmage, Conjurer, Summoner, Worker, Settler, Lich, Prophet, Warrior, Maceman, Immortal, Scout, Hunter, Ranger, Beastmaster, Assassin, Shadow, Longbowman, Flurry, Marksman, Horse Archer & Knight. Assassin starts with Forest Stealth.
18. Dwarven Druid can see Shadows. Requires Divine Right, and no longer Commune with Nature and a Grove.
19. The Drown, Stygian Guard, Eidolon and War Tortoise cannot lose Water Walking due to Dispel Magic.
20. Bronze/Iron/Mithril Working is required to obtain the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapons promotions.
21. Bloodpet never becomes obsolete.
22. Sailor’s Dirge can move through Ice.
23. Per fifteen culture a city produces, it gains one extra happiness. Maximum of five happiness this way.

Great work! I'll add both of your requests to the wish list.

Doh, sorry I took a reserved spot. :blush:

CHANGELOG PER FILE

GlobalTypes.xml

Flavours added.

GlobalDefinesAlt.xml

1. INITIAL_NON_STATE_RELIGION_HAPPINESS set to -1.
2. Minimal population for drafting lowered to one.
3. Unhappiness from drafting lowered to 2.

CIV4BuildingClassInfos.xml

1. Dragon Temple added.
2. Five culture happiness buildings added.

CIV4BuildingInfos.xml

1. Production speed of the Dungeon instead of Lighthouse is now doubled with the Organized trait.
2. Production speed of the Smokehouse instead of Harbor is now doubled with the Expansive trait.
3. Production speed of the Training Yard instead of Shipyard is now doubled with the Aggressive trait.
4. Production speed of the Pagan Temple, Basilica, Weaponsmith, Sculptors Studio, Grove, Asylum and Demons’ Altar is now doubled with the Spiritual trait. Five Religious Temples’ production no longer doubled with the Spiritual trait.
5. Demons’ Altar provides +15% science.
6. Alchemy Lab provides +1 happiness with Gunpowder. Fireworks! Alchemy Lab increases beakers output by 25% instead of a fixed 4 beakers.
7. Walls defense bonus increased to 50%. Walls cost 60 instead of 120 hammers.
8. Forge moves back to Smelting, cost 250, +25% hammers, AiWeight 0, +1 happiness with gold (but not gems).
9. Thieves’ Guild no longer reduces gold income.
10. Hall of Kings requires Divine Right instead of Theology.
11. Siege Workshop cost lowered to 120.
12. Dragon Temple added.
13. Herbalist requires Herbal Lore instead of Agriculture.
14. Syliven’s Perfect Lyre’s cost lowered to 400 hammers.
15. Elder Council requires Education instead of Mysticism.
16. Hippus Palace provides Law mana instead of Horse.
17. Money Changer reduced to cost 120.
18. Hippodrome requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses.
19. Public Baths increase happiness by two instead of three.
20. Aquaduct requires Mathematics in addition to Sanitation.
21. Aquae Sucellus requires Medicine instead of Sanitation.
22. Theater reduced to cost 180.
23. Five culture happiness buildings added.
24. Bazaar of Mammon requires Trade instead of Currency.
25. Gambling House de facto removed and recycled as the mechanic which provides 1 happiness per 20% gold spending under Consumption.
26. Celestial Compass requires Alteration. Double production speed with Dimensional Mana.
27. Tower of Eyes costs 500 instead of 700 hammers.
28. Building flavours changed.

CIV4SpecialBuildingInfos.xml

Temple production speed no longer doubled with the Spiritual trait.

Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml

1. All civs’ initial cultural civic changed to Naturalism.
2. Hippus starting tech is Animal Husbandry and initial economic civic Nomadism. Added three nomadic unique units.
3. Luchuirp, Khazad, Clan of Embers and Barbarians have Light Chariot as unique unit replacing the Horse Archer.
4. Svartalfar: unique units/graphics added for Adept, Mage, Archmage, Conjurer, Summoner, Worker, Settler, Lich, Prophet, Warrior, Maceman, Immortal, Scout, Hunter, Ranger, Beastmaster, Assassin, Shadow, Longbowman, Flurry, Marksman, Horse Archer & Knight. Assassin starts with Forest Stealth. Also see UnitInfos, FormationInfos and CIV4ArtDefines_Unit.xml
5. Doviello can still build Forge.
6. Calabim Pikeman UU added.

CIV4TraitInfos.xml

1. Naval units are also affected by the Magic Resistance trait.

CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml

1. The Malakim no longer prefers building Fire and Life mana. They prefer building Water mana.
2. The Elohim no longer prefer building Water mana.
3. The Mercurians no longer prefer building Body mana.
4. The Luchuirp no longer prefer building Earth mana.
5. The Kuriotates no longer prefer building Spirit mana.
6. The Ljosalfar no longer prefer building Fire and Life mana.
7. The Sidar no longer prefer building Spirit mana.
8. The Hippus no longer prefer building Nature mana.
9. The Amurites no longer prefer building Fire mana.
10. The Doviello no longer prefer building Body mana.
11. The Clan of Embers no longer prefers building Nature mana.
12. The Svartalfar no longer prefer building Nature and Enchantment mana.
13. The Sheaim no longer prefer building Chaos mana.
14. The Infernals no longer prefer building Fire mana.
15. The Illians no longer prefer building Water mana.
16. The Balseraph no longer prefer building Chaos and Spirit mana. They prefer building Spirit mana.
17. The Lanun no longer prefer building Chaos mana.
18. Leader flavours changed.
19. Flauros changed back from Financial to Expansive.
20. Rhoanna’s and Tasunke’s favourite civic is now Nomadism.
21. Os-Gabella’s favourite civic is now Sacrifice the Weak.

CIV4CivicInfos.xml

1. God King no longer provides state religion happiness. Forbidden Palace provides +2 happiness. Winter Palace +3 happiness.
2. Aristocracy: requires Monarchy. No more farm effects. Provides military happiness. Basically the former Hereditary Rule civic.
3. Republic requires Constitution.
4. Default cultural civic added: Naturalism. No effects.
5. Religion requires Mysticism. Provides +1 happiness with Pagan Temple and no longer all five religious temples.
6. Pacifism requires Philosophy. Provides +75% Great People points.
7. Nationhood requires Fanaticism. Provides +1 happiness with Training Yard and Archery Range. Can draft three units per turn. No military production bonus anymore.
8. Basilica gives +2 happiness under Social Order.
9. Consumption no longer provides extra happiness for the Market and Inn.
10. Liberty requires Honor.
11. Arete provides +1 hammer to Dwarven Halls, Dwarven Town and Dwarven Metropolis. Weaponsmith provides +2 happiness with Arete. Sculptors’ Studio provides +1 happiness with Arete.
12. Military State: Can no longer hurry with gold. Can no longer draft. Provides free unit maintenance for 25% of the population.
13. Serfdom: Can no longer hurry with gold.
14. Caste System no longer causes unhappiness in largest cities, no longer can hurry with gold, and no longer gives +1 beaker per specialist.
15. Guilds: Can no longer appoint unlimited artists. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
16. Nomadism: new Economy civic. Requires Animal Husbandry. Low upkeep. -10% food production. Pasture provides +1 hammer. Can draft three nomadic units per turn. Can build nomadic chariot, nomadic horseman, nomadic horse archer.
17. Agriculture provides +10% food production, but no more farm effects.
18. Mercantilism: Can hurry with gold. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
19. Foreign Trade: Can hurry gold.
20. Sacrifice The Weak no longer provides +10% gold, nor suffers a -20% Great People point penalty.
21. Fend for Themselves gives units +1 free XP.
22. Dragon Temple provides one more happiness with Theocracy and Religious Discipline.
23. Apprenticeship requires Archery instead of Education.

CIV4HurryInfo.xml

A hammer costs two gold to hurry.

CIV4RouteInfos.xml

Road i(Flat)Movement changed to 60.
Exploration changes that with -30.
Road speed no longer increased by Engineering.

CIV4TechInfos.xml

1. Trade no longer requires Writing, but instead Horseback Riding or Sailing.
2. Constitution tech has not been removed. Constitution also enables permanent alliances.
3. Animal Husbandry no longer requires Agriculture. Beaker cost is reduced to the same as Agriculture: 125.
4. Bowyers cost reduced to 1600.
5. Hunting cost reduced to 200.
6. Tracking cost reduced to 275.
7. Animal Handling cost increased to 1600.
8. Warfare now requires Education and (Bronze Working OR Archery OR Horseback Riding).
9. Optics now requires Sailing and Calendar.
10. Medicine now requires Education and (Sanitation OR Herbal Lore).
11. Herbal Lore requires Calendar and Tracking.
12. Bowyers no longer requires Bronze Working.
13. Drama no longer gives a free Great Artist for the first researcher. Drama gives +1 happiness in all cities.
14. Animal Mastery requires Bowyers instead of Iron Working.
15. Sanitation research cost doubled.
16. Engineering increases worker speed by +25%. The first researcher no longer gets a Great Engineer.
17. Chivalry research cost halved. Prerequisites now are Feudalism and Stirrups.
18. Warhorses now also requires Bowyers.
19. Large Animal Domestication requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses.
20. The “Domesticate Elephants” tech has been removed.
21. Mathematics increases the hammers gained by chopping by 25%.
22. Mithril Working research cost decreased by 25% and Mithril Weapons research cost decreased by 33%.
23. Stirrups tech cost reduced by 25%.
24. Metal Casting cost halved. Blasting Powder cost increased by 50%.
25. Honor requires Drama.
26. Tech flavours changed.

CIV4BonusInfos.xml

1. Gunpowder is revealed and enabled with Alchemy.
2. Gems can appear in Plains. They are enabled by Smelting.

CIV4FeatureInfos.xml

1. Ancient Forest now provides +1 commerce, plus an additional commerce near a river.
2. Ancient Forest requires three movement points to move on.
3. Jungle no longer gives -1 Food.

CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml

1. Fort provides 1 commerce; can be built on forest, jungle, new forest, grass and plains; carries irrigation; provides 5 gold after pillaging.
2. Plantation and Winery provides +2 commerce with Taxation.
3. Quarry provides +1 hammer with Engineering.
4. Pasture can be built on all Plains, Grassland, Tundra, Broken Lands and Fields of Perdition. Pasture provides +1 hammer, +1 gold. +1 gold with Stirrups and +1 hammer with Large Animal Domestication. Pasturing a horse and cow provides one less hammer. Pasturing a pig and sheep one less food.
5. Camp provides +2 commerce with Animal Mastery.
6. Farm: Pillaging provides 10 gold. Upgrades to Village in 30 turns.
7. Village provides one more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 30 gold. Upgrades to Town in 60 turns.
8. Town provides two more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 45 gold. Upgrades to Metropolis in 120 turns.
9. Metropolis provides three more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 60 gold.
10. Dwarven Mine upgrades to Dwarven Halls in 30 turns.
11. Dwarven Halls provide one more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Halls upgrade to Dwarven Town in 60 turns.
12. Dwarven Town provides two more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Town upgrades to Dwarven Metropolis in 120 turns.
13. Dwarven Metropolis provides one food and two more commerce than Dwarven Mine.
14. Terrace terrain improvement added. Same as farm except it can only be built on hills.
15. Dwarven Farm & Terrace added. Does not upgrade to the urban line and only provides 5 gold for pillaging.
16. Workshop revamped as a unique Khazad and Luchuirp terrain improvement. Provides one hammer and one gold, plus one hammer with Machinery and plus one gold with Taxation. Can be built on flatland grass and plains. 10 gold for pillaging.

CIV4TerrainInfos.xml

1. Movement through Ice requires 2 movement points.

CIV4GameText_FFH2.xml

1. Text added at the bottom.
2. Poisons renamed to Herbal Lore.
3. Armored Cavalry renamed Chivalry.
4. Domesticate Camels renamed Large Animal Domestication.

CIV4BuildInfos.xml

1. Roads no longer have a tech prerequisite.
2. Roads take 4 turns to build.
3. Forts can be built on Jungle, Forest and New Forest.
4. Farm and Elven Farm build time increased to 800.
5. Mine build time increased to 600.
5. Build Cottage & Elven Cottage option removed.
6. Build Town, Dwarven Town & Elven Town option added. Buildtime 10000. Requires Mercantilism.
7. Build Terrace option added. Buildtime 1200. Requires Construction.
8. Build Elven Terrade option added. Same as Terrace, except it can be built on forest.
9. Orcs can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation and Terrace in Jungle.
10. Build Dwarven Farm/Terrace added.

CIV4PromotionInfos.xml

1. Naval units can learn the Accuracy, Drill II, Drill III, Drill IV promotions.
2. Disciple units can learn the Amphibious & Blitz promotions.
3. Accuracy requires Construction.
4. City Raider and Garrison I now requires Combat I or Drill I. City Raider and Garrison II now requires Combat III or Drill III.
5. Disciple and Melee units can learn the City Garrison promotions.
6. Archer and Disciple units can learn the City Raider promotions.
7. City raider III gives a 20% combat bonus against archery units instead of melee.
8. Commando requires Warfare, but no longer Combat IV.
9. Mounted units can learn Cover II.
10. Drill I gives one extra first strike instead of first strike chance.
11. Magic Resistance gives +40% combat bonus against the Summoned(1) promotion.
13. Marksman requires Combat IV or Drill IV or Forest Stealth.
15. Mobility I requires Horseback Riding instead of Exploration.
16. Navigation I no longer has a promotion requirement (was Flanking I).
17. Shock I requires Combat I or Drill I.
18. Shock II requires Shock I and (Combat III or Drill III).
19. Woodsman II requires Woodsman I or Elven.
20. Archery, Disciple and Mounted units can learn Woodsman II.
21. Melee units can get Barrage 2 & 3.
22. Forest Stealth requires Woodsman I and (Combat II OR Woodsman II). Archer, Disciple and Mounted units can also acquire it.
23. iAIWeight of the Nature II promotion increased to 100.
24. INVISIBLE2, HIDDEN, VISIBLE, REVEALED promotions added.
25. Woodsman II has iAIWeight 10.
26. Mithril Weapons provides +3 instead of +4 strength.
27. Heroic Strength I now requires Hero and Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
28. Units with March heal 10% extra per turn in enemy territory.
29. Amphibious now requires Combat II or Drill II.
30. Blitz now requires Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
31. Sentry now requires Combat III or Drill III.
32. Formation requires Combat II or Drill II.
33. Cover requires Combat I or Drill I.
34. Level 2 magic promotions changed to AIweight 30.
35. Summoned gives 100% withdrawal chance.

CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml

1. Knight is no longer a national unit: can be built infinitely.
2. Nomadic Horseman, Chariot and Horse Archer added.
3. Inquisitor no longer has a limit of three in XML.

CIV4UnitInfos.xml

1. Captured slaves keep their race.
2. Archer gets the Attack, Reserve and Counter unit AIs. Elven Archer already has Attack AI.
3. Archer loses +50% city defense, but gains +50% vs melee, and +50% defense versus (Nomadic) Chariot and (Nomadic) Horse Archer. Except +25% vs melee and mounted archers for Elven Archer.
4. Chariot changes to strength 3 (including Power value), cost 60, gains one first strike chance, tech requirements of Crafting and Archery, building requirement of Archery Range, resource requirement of Horse, and upgrades to Horse Archer.
5. Crossbowman gains +50% defense against (Nomadic) Chariot and (Nomadic) Horse Archer.
6. Demagog upgrades to Maceman and Sir Not Appearing In This Mod.
7. Axeman doesn’t have a +10% city attack bonus.
8. Horse Archer loses immunity to first strikes. They upgrade to War Chariot and no longer Knight.
9. Horseman loses the Cover I promotion and 25% withdrawal chance (Raider keeps 10%), but gains immunity to first strikes. Cost set to 90. Power value changes to 4. Horseman only upgrades to Knight and Sir NAITM.
10. Hippus mounted units no longer require Horse.
11. Knight -6 strength & -4 iPower, -35% withdrawal chance, 180 cost. Upgrades to Royal Guard and War Elephant.
12. Longbowman loses +25% city defense but gains one extra first strike. No longer requires any resource. Gains the Attack, Reserve and Counter Unit AIs.
13. Doviello melee and archer units now have normal costs.
14. Dwarven Slave can no longer build Dwarven Mines.
15. Elven Slave can no longer Build Elven Farm, Pasture, Plantation and Cottage.
16. The Drown can upgrade to Sir Not Appearing In This Mod.
17. Gilden Silveric loses +25% city defense, but gains the Woodsman I promotion. Gains the Attack, Reserve and Counter Unit AIs.
18. Melee units still require metal resources. Strength of the other melee unit readjusted to pre-Fire.
19. Warrior (+13 UUs) can bombard city defenses 1% per turn.
20. Soldier of Kilmorph can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
21. Axeman (+12 UUs) can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
22. Maceman (+11 UUs) can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
23. Pikeman (+10 UUs) can bombard city defenses 2% per turn.
24. Cannon withdrawal chance increased to 80%.
25. Stonewarden starts with Guerilla I, but loses Demon Slaying I.
26. Paramander starts with Guerilla I.
27. Priest of Leaves starts with Woodsman I, but loses Demon Slaying I. Now only has the Animal unit AI.
28. Archer of Leaves starts with Woodsman I, but loses Elven.
29. Zealot starts with Amphibious, but loses Dwarf Slaying.
30. Cultist starts with Amphibious, but loses Demon Slaying I.
31. Savant loses Elf Slaying and Medic I.
32. Ritualist starts with Scourge, but loses Demon Slaying I.
33. High Priest loses Demon Slaying I.
34. Dwarven Hammerfist and Dwarven Soldier start with Guerilla I instead of Guerilla II.
35. Dwarven Berserker, Adept, Worker, Warrior (Khazad & Luchuirp), Soldier, Hammerfist, Slinger can move through impassable terrain.
36. Camel Archer starts with the Nomad promotion.
37. War Elephant is reduced by -2 in strength and no longer has a withdrawal chance, except of course the Hippus who retains 10%. War Elephants now requires Large Animal Domestication instead of Domesticate Elephants.
38. Lanun Phalanx starts with Boarding.
39. Dwarven Berserker starts with Guerilla I.
40. Courtesan starts with Taskmaster.
41. Brujah starts with Channeling I and II, Sorcery, Body I and Death I.
42. Hippus War Elephant starts with Channeling I and Chaos I.
43. Royal Guard now only upgrades to War Elephant.
44. Galley, Caravel and now have 2 cargo capacity. Caravel gains the Settler Sea Unit AI. Galleon gains the Sentry promotion and can sail through rival territory.
45. Disciple of Leaves loses Woodsman I and Medic I.
46. Nomadic Horseman, Chariot, Horse Archer, Raider, Hippus Chariot and Brigand added.
47. Man O’ War requires the Blasting Powder technology.
48. Ranger cost reduced to 120.
49. Hunter requires Tracking instead of Hunting.
50. Berserker (except Balor) starts with Barrage 1.
51. Immortal, Berserker, Shield Wall, Spartiatoi can bombard 2% per turn.
52. Balor no longer has the Collateral AI assigned.
53. Slave and Worker Build options revised according to new terrain improvements.
54. Scout can upgrade to Nomadic Horseman and (Nomadic) Chariot.
55. Orc Worker can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation and Terrace in Jungle.
56. Dwarven Worker cannot build Farm, Terrace or Pasture. Builds Dwarven Farm, Terrace and Workshop instead.
57. Grigori Medic now requires Herbal Lore and Herbalist.
58. Pikeman requires Constitution instead of Metal Casting. Various hammer cost adjustments. Copper suffices to build the unit. Exceptions: Boarding Party requires Astronomy. Gargoyle is unchanged. Calabim Pikeman requires Metal Casting. All Pikemen except the Gargoyle are lowered -2 in base strength.
59. Dwarven Druid can see Shadows. Requires Divine Right, and no longer Commune with Nature and a Grove.
60. Frigate and Galleon require Iron Working.
61. Flurry and Marksman require Silk instead of metal resources.
62. Doviello Berserker starts with Shock I and Trainer.
63. Doviello Phalanx, Berserker & Immortal increased +1 in strength.
64. Arcane Barge requires Alchemy instead of Sorcery.
65. Skull Catapult reduced to strength 5.
66. New Unique Unit added, replacing the (Nomadic) Horse Archer for the Luchuirp, Khazad and Clan of Embers: the (Nomadic) Light Chariot. Same stats as the (Nomadic) Horse Archer. Requirements: Horse, Military Strategy, Construction, Archery and an Archery Range (for the non-nomadic version).
67. Monk requires Religious Law instead of Priesthood.
68. Captured Elven and Orc settlers become slaves. Captured Dwarven, Elven and Goblin workers become slaves.
69. Bloodpet never becomes obsolete.
70. Sailor’s Dirge can move through Ice.
71. Mud Golem builds Workshop instead of Pasture.
72. Unit flavours changed.

CIV4SpellInfos.xml

1. Visibility and Invisibility spells added.
2. The AIweight of Longshoremen crew is no longer determined by FFHSpells.py
3. AI targetable spells added.

CustomFunctions.py

1. Forge and Weaponsmith are no longer required to get Weapons promotions. (Nomadic) Horseman, Axeman and Maceman cannot get Mithril Weapons. Axeman cannot get Iron Weapons. Bronze/Iron/Mithril Working is required to obtain the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapons promotions.

CvEventManager.py

1. When running the Sacrifice the Weak civic, a diseased or plagued unit that dies in combat has 1/3 chance of spawning a Diseased Corpse.
2. When razing a holy city, a mana node is created and the razer receives a Great Prophet (or Adventurer for the Grigori).
3. A form of Hidden trait implemented.
4. ZoC implementation: moving next to a fort or city reduces movement points by 1, or by ½ if the unit has the Commando promotion.5. Forts disappear if an ancient forest grows in its tile.
6. Horseman, Knight, Royal Guard, War Elephant, Nomadic Horseman, Spartiatoi, Shield Wall, Axeman, Maceman, Minotaur and Pikemen (except the Luchuirp Golems) can get Weapons promotions.
7. Per fifteen culture a city produces, it gains one extra happiness. Maximum of five happiness this way.
8. Gambling house code according to new Consumption civic.
9. An Adept built by the AI doesn’t start with Free Promotion but instead with a random first level promotion of the available mana types.
10. All living non-Hero Khazad and Luchuirp units that don’t yet have a race start with the Dwarven promotion.
11. All living non-Hero Ljosalfar and Svartalfar units that don’t yet have a race start with the Elven promotion.
12. Rangers, Longbowmen, Flurries, Marksmen, Druids and Beastmasters built under Fellowship of Leaves state religion start with Woodsman I.
13. Rangers and Beastmasters built under Fellowship of Leaves state religion start with Medic I.
14. Paramanders built by the AI in a city with a Brewery will start with the Dwarven promotion.
15. Stygian Guards and Eidolons built by the AI under Octopus Overlords state religion have 50-50% chance to start with Medic I and Amphibious OR with Water Walking, Undead and Vulnerable to Fire.
16. Marksmen built by the Amurite AI start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Fire I and Flaming Arrows.
17. Lanun Shieldwall starts with Boarding.
18. Amurite Shadow starts with Channeling I and Dimensional I.
19. Amurite Flurry starts with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Fire I and Flaming Arrows.
20. Grigori Berserker starts with Courage and Dragon Slaying.
21. Khazad Pikeman, Spartiatoi and Shield Wall start with Guerilla I.
22. Bannor Spartiatoi and Shield Wall start with Guardsman.
23. Balseraph Druid and Beastmaster start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Mind I and Chaos I.
24. Balseraph Marksman starts with Taskmaster.
25. All possible upgrade paths of the Malakim Lightbringer start with Sentry.
26. When built, the Orc Marksman starts with Amphibious.
27. The Infernal War Elephant and Royal Guard start with Channeling I & II, Sorcery, Death I and Undead.
28. The Hippus Royal Guard starts with Channeling I and Chaos I.
29. Savant and Disciple of Leaves built under their state religion start with Medic I and Scourge/Woodsman I.
30. If the AI has the Priesthood tech and follows Fellowship of Leaves as state religion, Jungle has a 6% chance each turn to turn into forest.
31. Revelers are spawned in cities with a Money Changer instead of Gambling House.
32. War Machine settlement destruction adapted to new terrain improvements.
33. Under Military Discipline units gain one extra experience per combat. Not cumulative with Valor.
34. Dragon Temple is created when the Dragon Cult spreads into a Sheaim or Kuriotate city, or when they capture a city with the Cult of the Dragon.
35. The Barbarians get a random tier2 military tech for free if at least three other civs have researched any tier2 military tech.
36. New Infernal cities have an equal chance to start with a Stables, Hunting Lodge, Archery Range or Training Yard instead of an assured Training Yard.

FFHSpells.py

1. A civilization must have the Order of Junil as state religion to get double as many units with the Recruit spell.
2. Ljosalfar can bloom forest under their cities.
3. Bloom Forest is possible on terrain improvements and Jungle, but destroys the improvement. AI cannot cast on resources, town and metropolis.
4. The player can turn on and off the invisibility from the Hidden trait.
5. Hidden casters are revealed for a turn after casting Charm Person, Contagion, Destroy Undead, Dispel Magic, Domination, Earthquake, Enervation, Entangle, Hideous Thoughts, Pillar of Fire, Rage, Reversal of Fortune, Ring of Flames, Righteous Cause, Rust, Summon, Tremor, Tsunami or Wither.
6. The Drown, Stygian Guard and Eidolon cannot lose Water Walking due to Dispel Magic.
7. Recruit spell adapted to fit new unit prerequisites.
8. Righteous Cause no longer kills the caster, and can be cast by the AI.
9. Dragonship, Trireme and Pirate prefer Buccaneer crew. Galley and Caravel no longer prefer Longshoremen crew. Trireme no longer prefers Skeleton crew.
10. After a failed Domination attempt, spellcasters only have 20% chance of converting to the other side.
11. The Spring and Vitalize spells affect a wider area for the AI.
12. The AI can use targetable spells.

CvGameInterface.py

1. Good AIs cannot run the Fend for Themselves civic.
2. Defensive withdrawal implemented.
3. Evil AIs cannot research Righteousness. Only Evil AIs can research Malevolent Designs.
4. The Grigori can run Public Healers.
5. The AI no longer gives top priority to building a forge.
6. If a civ who the AI has no borders with researches a tier 2 or 3 military tech, that AI civ will prioritize researching a tier 2 or 3 military themselves.
7. Inquisitor’s national limit is now determined at python level. Under the Theocracy civic everyone but the Grigori can build three additional Inquisitors, for a total of six.
8. AIs without Copper/Iron/Mithril won’t prioritize researching Bronze Working/Iron Working/Mithril Weapons.

wow looks cool. interesting changes :goodjob:

sweet just cuz kale looked i will take a look

Interesting changes. One thing though: Why is Flauros expansive again? It was weird to think the Calabim would be able to adopt protect the meek for no cost.

Looks interesting. Are you taking requests for features?

wow, you're gonna show up the dev team with all these rebalances...

Just curious. I haven't really read through all of that yet, so take it with a grain of salt, but.. you said you were trying to make the cavarly lines more interesting, but it looks like most of it got nerfed more than anything.. :(

hows come?

And those "free" micromanagement promos actually cost a lot of GP...

My request: Nerf the Recon line, and remove races from Leaves and Kilmorph non-heroes (eg, why do I get dwarven soldiers because my civ follows this religion? A human doesn't turn into a dwarf because he worships an earth god..)

Interesting changes. One thing though: Why is Flauros expansive again? It was weird to think the Calabim would be able to adopt protect the meek for no cost.

The Expansive trait now doubles smokehouse instead of Harbor production, so it screams out Food! Food! Food! which has a nice synergy with the Vampire Breeding Pit and XP harvesting etc. Anyway, at a later date I'll probably change the civics making the point re protect the meek invalid.

Looks interesting. Are you taking requests for features?

Anything to make FfH better!


Re Quetz, have to go now, will answer tomorrow.

Let me put it this way: If I was to engineer a closely woven alternate tech tree, would you consider giving it a home in this mod-mod?

Second is the request for more control over great people production. Currently you can only set the increase in great people points necessary for the next GP for the first couple GPs. After ten GPs, the GPP increase automatically rises by 100. I’d prefer if you had two additional values in GlobalDefines.xml, one to set per how many GPs the GPP increase changes, and another with how much. I’d like to set it to -25 per 5 GPs, so that the GPP increase evolves from 150 to 125->100->…

While all other game strategies become better and more productive as the game progresses, the big exception forms great people. Great People Points give you less and less benefit for your investment the more GPs you get. This makes a specialist strategy a bad idea for the endgame, and reduces the value of the Philosophical trait. I’d like to reward instead of punish people for following a heavy GP strategy.

Err...bad idea. I agree that in the late game GPs become weaker than other strategies, but having it accelerate instead will cause trouble when you get a Great Engineer every other turn.

I think a parabola or pendulum model would work better, where the GPP requirement becomes faster at first, then slows back to where it was; maybe a little bit farther in the late game.

On a lighter note: Great work, m@ni@c! If I could be bothered to make another installation folder for FfH (between my own mod and the official version), I'd check it out. Maybe later I'll do it anyway. :p

He doesn't mean that the full :gp: requirements will decrease, just that their rate of increasing will. So, the system might go as follows:

#1- 150:gp:

#2- 275:gp: (150+125)

#3- 375:gp: (150+125+100)

#4- 450:gp: (150+125+100+75)

#5- 500:gp: (150+125+100+75+50)

You see? Though having the rate at which the required :gp: increase sway back and forth might be a good idea, lest the number remain static at some point.

22. Dwarven Slave can no longer build Dwarven Mines.
23. Elven Slave can no longer Build Elven Farm, Pasture, Plantation and Cottage
Why? (just curious, didn't know that was disliked.)

I'd imagine it's to prevent people enslaving Archer of Leaves or Soldier of Kilmorph units from building these improvements, even though the original owners of the units couldn't...

@Chandrasekhar: Ah, I get it now. I take back what I said, then; it sounds good to me. :D

As for the Dwarf/Elf Slaves building goodies, how about instead of letting slaves build civ-specific improvements, how about the Disciples of Leaves and Runes be able to build those improvements at a reduced rate (i.e. Disciple of Leaves can build Elven Farms, and Thane of Kilmorph can build Dwarven Mines, but both will take forever)?

That way true practicioners of Leaves and Runes that aren't the Paragon civ (Dwarvish Doviello, for example) can reap some of the same benefits that the Khazad and Ljosalfar get normally without letting, say, Veil-worshippers get the same benefits. And those disciples get another utility other than spreading your religon/culture and upgrading to priests.

As for the Dwarf/Elf Slaves building goodies, how about instead of letting slaves build civ-specific improvements, how about the Disciples of Leaves and Runes be able to build those improvements at a reduced rate (i.e. Disciple of Leaves can build Elven Farms, and Thane of Kilmorph can build Dwarven Mines, but both will take forever)?

That way true practicioners of Leaves and Runes that aren't the Paragon civ (Dwarvish Doviello, for example) can reap some of the same benefits that the Khazad and Ljosalfar get normally without letting, say, Veil-worshippers get the same benefits. And those disciples get another utility other than spreading your religon/culture and upgrading to priests.

Why not let dwarven and elven workers (or more expensive variants) become available with Arete and Hidden Paths instead?

Then what will the Khazad and Ljosalfar use for workers?
And besides, I'd rather boost an existing unit than make a whole new one for a single purpose.

Then what will the Khazad and Ljosalfar use for workers?
And besides, I'd rather boost an existing unit than make a whole new one for a single purpose.

They get their workers as usual from the beginning. You do not need a new unit type. Alternatively, you can make an SDK change to make elven and dwarven improvements available to regular worker types with the appropriate techs. Your basic idea (making the improvements available with the respective religion) is good and is something I've been considering to mod myself, so let's not try make things seem to add complexity just because you dislike my version.

They get their workers as usual from the beginning. You do not need a new unit type. Alternatively, you can make an SDK change to make elven and dwarven improvements available to regular worker types with the appropriate techs.
If that is your reasoning make sure that the medieval starts are fixed so that people do not start with Arete and Hidden Paths. Same with the techs that may allow those other improvements to be built by regular workers. Just pointing out something that needs to watched out for.

If that is your reasoning make sure that the medieval starts are fixed so that people do not start with Arete and Hidden Paths. Same with the techs that may allow those other improvements to be built by regular workers. Just pointing out something that needs to watched out for.

I agree 100% on this.

Let me put it this way: If I was to engineer a closely woven alternate tech tree, would you consider giving it a home in this mod-mod?

Depends on the changes of course (but I'm certainly open to it of course). I usually have a strong opinion on such things - making a tech tree is my favourite part of mod making. :D

Oh wait, I remember reading something, but can't find it back anymore. IIRC you wanted to add a lot more AND prerequisites to the early techs. I don't know - personally I'd rather prefer more OR prerequisites, different ways to get to the same point. Eg Trade with Sailing OR Horseback Riding.

Re Dwarven/Elven slaves:
Why? (just curious, didn't know that was disliked.)

I'm sure it wasn't disliked. Just like I'm sure some people wouldn't dislike starting with all mana spheres, and the ability to build all civilizations' unique unts, buildings, and heroes. ;) But in the end, would it make for a better game? I doubt it. Dwarven mines and especially terrain improvements on forest are what makes Khazad and Ljosalfar fun to play. Giving that ability to other civs reduces their unique feel, and reduces the broad variety of available playstyles, which is one of FfH strongpoints. Ideally, each game should be a unique experience.

And those "free" micromanagement promos actually cost a lot of GP...

One hammer for two gold I consider a lossless conversion.

My request: Nerf the Recon line, and remove races from Leaves and Kilmorph non-heroes (eg, why do I get dwarven soldiers because my civ follows this religion? A human doesn't turn into a dwarf because he worships an earth god..)

I believe the explanation is that Archer of Leaves and Soldiers of Kilmorph are not humans of the civ itself, but elves and dwarves coming from elsewhere to join the ranks of their brothers of faith. Anyway, I changed the Archer of Leaves promotion from Elven to Woodsman I. Soldier of Kilmorph stayed Dwarven. Personally I don't really care about that, but I suspect that if the promotion was removed, even more people would say Soldier of Kilmorph -> Paramander is a fun upgrade path with a free promo and should be kept. ;)

Just curious. I haven't really read through all of that yet, so take it with a grain of salt, but.. you said you were trying to make the cavarly lines more interesting, but it looks like most of it got nerfed more than anything.. :(

hows come?

What specifically makes you feel so?

Anyway, an overview of changes:
There are two ways to make cavalry more attractive: improving the unit themselves, and making the techs that give them more attractive.

Re the units themselves, Chariot just was lowered a tier.

Horse Archer lost immunity from first strikes, because they shouldn't fight well against light infantry. (Note: I used this page (http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/aow.html) as basis for the unit changes. It was linked to once in the TAM thread.) But on the plus, defensive withdrawal has been added which especially affects them. If someone's trying out RoM, I'd really like some feedback on how powerful their defensive withdrawal is perceived. If they're still considered too weak, I guess adding a first strike would be best - makes sense as they're ranged units.

Re horseman, problem is they're now sort of a 2.5 tier unit. They start with strength 3 but can get to strength 5 with iron weapons. Cost 90 is of course too high for strength 3 and too low for strength 5, but I hope it's kind of balanced when they're strength 4 (with bronze weapons) and will be used most. Only playtesting can tell I guess.

Re knight, they're cost 180, strength 7 with iron weapons. But they don't have withdrawal chance... Do you think I should raise them by a point to strength 8 with iron weapons?

War Elephant is one point stronger provided you have mithril. Royal Guard can get to strength 11 with mithril.

Re the techs and other stuff:

1. Mounted units now get the Combat I promotion for free with the Aggressive trait.
2. Mounted units are also affected by the Raiders trait.
3. Mounted units can learn Cover II.

Movement speed in general has been reduced. If not everyone can move fast, I think this increases the value of the units who still can.

1. Road speed no longer increased by Engineering.
2. Roads take 4 turns to build.
3. Mobility I requires Horseback Riding instead of Exploration.

Also the Commando promotion is now much easier to get, which means your cavalry raging in enemy territory can't be outrun anymore by a mere infantry. Cavalry also has a 50% chance to ignore zones of control.

Horseback Riding is now an OR prerequisite for Trading.

In the future I plan to make the Pasture terrain improvement buidable in all terrain. Make it start with one hammer and one gold, and increase that to two hammers and two gold with Stirrups and Warhorses or so. Adding economic advantages to the cavalry line will hopefully cause more people to research those techs, and use the units that come with it. Also I plan to make Animal Husbandry a basic tech which doesn't require Agriculture anymore, and let it provide the Nomadism civic: something like -10% food production, +1 hammer with pasture, can "draft" three nomad units (even better cavalry) per turn?

Well, I might go ahead and start making a tech tree from the bottom up, then. I'll use this post to update my results, and we can see how it goes from there. I'll try and put plenty of -or- paths in there... should be easy enough to do.

_______________________________________________ ___________________________________ ______________________________________ _______________________________________
|Agriculture | |Crafting | |Exploration | |Ancient Chants |
|-----------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------| |--------------------------------------| |---------------------------------------|
|Allows Farm, Granary, Herbalist | |Allows Brewery, Winery | |Allows +1 Road Moves, Open Borders | |Allows Race Slaying Promotions, Obelisk|
|Leads to Festivals, Animal Husbandry, Education| |Leads to Mining, Masonry, Education| |Leads to Hunting, Cartography, Fishing| |Leads to Education, Mysticism |
|_______________________________________________| |___________________________________| |______________________________________| |_______________________________________|
| | | | ______________________| | |____________ | |
_______________________________|__________ ____________|__________________________ ______________________________________|________ _________|________________ _________________________________________|____ ___________________________|_______ ________________|______________________ ________________________________________|_____ ________________|_________________________________ ___________
|Animal Husbandry | |Festivals | |Mining | |Masonry | |Hunting | |Cartography | |Fishing | |Education | |Mysticism |
|------------------------------------------| |---------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------| |--------------------------| |----------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------| |---------------------------------------| |----------------------------------------------| |-------------------------------------------------------------|
|Allows Pasture, Horses, Smokehouse | |Allows Carnival, Market | |Allows Mine, Copper | |Allows Walls, Quarry, CotS| |Allows Hunting Lodge, Camp | |Allows Trade Maps, PotN | |Allows Work Water Tiles, Fishing Boats | |Allows Cottage, Apprenticeship, City States | |Allows God King, Elder Council, Pagan Temple |
|Reqs Agriculture | |Reqs Agriculture | |Reqs Crafting | |Reqs Crafting | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Ancient Chants, [Agriculture or Crafting]| |Reqs Ancient Chants |
|Leads to Horseback Riding, Animal Handling| |Leads to Drama, Bronze Working, Archery| |Leads to Bronze Working, Way of the Earthmother| |Leads to Construction | |Leads to Tracking, Archery, Way of the Forests| |Leads to Horseback Riding, Tracking| |Leads to Sailing, Message from the Deep| |Leads to Writing, Code of Laws | |Leads to Philosophy, Knowledge of the Ether, WotF, WotE, MftD|
|__________________________________________| |_______________________________________| |_______________________________________________| |__________________________| |______________________________________________| |___________________________________| |_______________________________________| |______________________________________________| |_________________________________________________ ____________|

___________________________________ _____________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____ __________________________________________________ _____________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________
|Horseback Riding (with Cartography)| |Bronze Working | |Way of the Earthmother (with Mysticism) | |Construction | |Tracking | |Archery (with Festivals and Hunting)|
|-----------------------------------| |-------------------------------------| |-------------------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------| |------------------------------------|
|Allows Horseman, Stables | |Allows Axeman, Training Yard, Trireme| |Allows Thane, Temple, Soldier of Kilmorph, Founds Runes| |Allows Catapult, Siege Workshop, Spreads Irrigation, Improves Workshops| |Allows Sentry I, Hunter | |Allows Archery Range, Archer |
|Reqs Animal Husbandry, Cartography | |Reqs Festivals, Mining | |Reqs Mining, Mysticism | |Reqs Masonry | |Reqs Hunting, Cartography | |Reqs Festivals, Hunting |
|Leads to Trade, Warfare | |Leads to Smelting, Bowyers | |Leads to Arete | |Leads to Sanitation, Mathematics, Arete | |Leads to Stealth, Animal Handling, Hidden paths| |Leads to Warfare |
|___________________________________| |_____________________________________| |_________________________________________________ ______| |_________________________________________________ ______________________| |_______________________________________________| |____________________________________|

Hopefully will have time to try out this mod tonight. Anyone have a review yet? :)

i accedently posted in the wrong thread , but are there any plans to improve forts further? as in the SEVO mod style?

btw , LOVE what you ahve done with the mod. this has made the non-arcane civs much more playable and given them a more even footing.

Nice work!

The ZoC works nicely so far, wasn't expecting it when scouting a pirate around.

The only issue I've had crop up so far is automated workers build forts every so often, it overrides 'automated workers leave forests'. The placements are decent choke points except they're in the middle of my borders.

Thanks for trying out the mod!

i accedently posted in the wrong thread , but are there any plans to improve forts further? as in the SEVO mod style?

How are forts dealt with in Sevomod? The only mod I play is FfH. :mischief:

The only issue I've had crop up so far is automated workers build forts every so often, it overrides 'automated workers leave forests'. The placements are decent choke points except they're in the middle of my borders.

I'm afraid I don't understand re forests. Forts can now be built on top of forests, jungles and new forests without them disappearing, so automated workers building forts there shouldn't be a problem, in fact be an advantage as far as I can see. Or do they replace lumbermills or ancient forests?

oops, checking around again it's just the ancient forests. They seem pretty high on the queue, but I guess thats the trade off for being lazy re workers.

I think that the civ specific abilities to build elven improvements and dwarven mines are well balanced. Why should any other civ get their civ bonus? What's next...allowing the Banor to build Vampire units because they are fun? Allowing any civ to get adventurers?

The mod team did a good job of giving each civ their own individual flavor. Don't destroy this balance by allowing other civs to use the civ specific bonuses. If you want to build improvements on forest tiles or construct dwarven mines you should play the civ that is designed to have these features.

Well, if you want to create your own mod, you're more than welcome to leave that feature out.

oops, checking around again it's just the ancient forests. They seem pretty high on the queue, but I guess thats the trade off for being lazy re workers.

Hmm, I don't want AI workers to remove ancient forests. That's shooting themselves in the foot especially in case they are fellowship followers. I could make it impossible to build a fort on an ancient forest directly. The human player could still do it with a detour: first chop the forest and then build a fort on the now empty tile.

Hmm... sounds okay on the whole, but a few problems...

City Garrison I and City Raider I require Combat V.
That seems rather extreme... City Garrison and Raider aren't THAT powerful. I'd suggest, as an alternative, to have it tiered. Say, Garrison/Raider 1 requiring Combat 1, Garrison/Raider 2 requiring Combat 3, and Garrison/Raider 3 requiring Combat 5. That's a lot more sensible then just putting it all at 5, and works similar to the anti-unit line. Also, you really NEED Raiders to take well-fortified cities... forget the horde of besieging warriors, you need something with some kick.

Religion Bonuses:
You've added bonuses to Kilmorph (Up to +3 Happiness) and to the Veil (+15% Science). Nothing for the other religions?

Flauros changed back from Financial to Expansive.
I suggested that change... Flauros' favorite civic is Fend for Themselves... but he shouldn't take it, because he can get Protect the Meek for free with Expansive. I'm not sure what else he should have, but it certainly shouldn't be Expansive.

Magic Resistance gives +40% combat bonus against the Summoned(1) promotion.
Only Summoned 1? Why?

City Garrison I and City Raider I require Combat V.
That seems rather extreme... City Garrison and Raider aren't THAT powerful. I'd suggest, as an alternative, to have it tiered. Say, Garrison/Raider 1 requiring Combat 1, Garrison/Raider 2 requiring Combat 3, and Garrison/Raider 3 requiring Combat 5. That's a lot more sensible then just putting it all at 5, and works similar to the anti-unit line. Also, you really NEED Raiders to take well-fortified cities... forget the horde of besieging warriors, you need something with some kick.

I didn't put them so late because they were overpowered, but because I don't like a strict division between city attack troops and general combat troops. Just a personal preference. If you really don't like this, you only have to change two lines in CIV4PromotionInfos.xml to return to the old situation: 1980 and 2236. Anyway, if there is no City Garrison promotion, the need for a City Raider promotion disappears as well.

Religion Bonuses:
You've added bonuses to Kilmorph (Up to +3 Happiness) and to the Veil (+15% Science). Nothing for the other religions?

Those bonuses were added as part of the Spiritual trait change, not to boost religions. Spiritual trait now doubles Basilica, Weaponsmith, Sculptor's Studio, Grove, Asylum and Demons' Altar production.

Demons' Altar was useless before, so I added the science bonus. Even now I'd only massbuild it if I have the spiritual trait.

Runes of Kilmorph doesn't have a religious building other than their temple, so since I couldn't find any better I added +2 happiness to the Weaponsmith with Arete. Personally I'd have to be really desperate if I wanted to spend 300 hammers to get two happiness, so I hope mass-building of the Weaponsmith is only useful for Spiritual Runes civs. Re the Sculptor's Studio, only the Luchuirp can build that, and they can't build a Weaponsmith.

Flauros changed back from Financial to Expansive.
I suggested that change... Flauros' favorite civic is Fend for Themselves... but he shouldn't take it, because he can get Protect the Meek for free with Expansive. I'm not sure what else he should have, but it certainly shouldn't be Expansive.

In some far future, after civics have been reworked a lot, I'll probably remove the 'no maintenance for compassion' aspect of expansive.

Magic Resistance gives +40% combat bonus against the Summoned(1) promotion.
Only Summoned 1? Why?

Because you can only give a combat bonus against one promotion. :(

These are interesting changes. I'm going to give this a try later tonight. I'm also bothered by the mounted units in FFH. I notice I almost never bother with them unless I'm already in a comfortable position. The easy access to the mobility promotion negates alot of their purpose for me (and I know they still get more movement, but there's little point if the rest of your army can't keep up).

FFH tends to suggest you choose specific paths in which to specialize. Mounted units are just too specialized to commit yourself to IMO... I'm having trouble visualizing exactly how these changes will effect gameplay, so I'll comment more later when I get to try it out. ;)

ok , i have had the chance to play 2 games really well now....

1st was hippus.
all i can say here is OMFG...i absolutely love teh way the civ plays out now. i rushed for my horses and got raiders off the bat then picked up misc tech. then realized that i could not take a city so researched warfare only to realize city attack can only be gotten by combat 5 ( no bigs). so i build my smallsih army of 5 axemen to lay siege to cities ... then i built my chariots and realized i should have gotten teh chariouts BEFORE i got raiders. finally got my copper and my raiders upgraded and i was all kinds of happy. it turned out to be a much more tactically oriented game and tasunke is by far sicker then he ever was. people were forced to build both defensively to counter me and to make their own calvary. sad part is , i was also forced to go arcane for similar reasons later in the game. I LOVE that though.

2nd game as elves....
here i played a much more defensive war. planting forests everywhere and building forts as i could to protect my borders. NOTHING could get inside. but i did notice what i would think of as some improvements to be playtested.
1- fort improvements ( +25% def , +1 visiability , +1 first strike ) split at differing techs.
2- forest stealth needs to be opened to non-recon units. i dont think they all shoudl have it , but the option shoudl be there. i was thinking with combat 3 and forest 2. this makes would restrict it more or less to elves while allowing a bit more flexibility in longstanding units.
3- atm elves rely a bit too much on the recon units (might be playstyle but the others i was playing with agreed) waht we were thinking is thats city raider and city garison should or could work in forts ( but then again those are nto seen often except in heroes now)

ok future side not on possible improvements taht we saw happenign with combat.
1- could the units that are given witht he rage tech have some advancements opened to them? basically barrage and accuracy. the reason being is these are the only units that have collateral damage and its useless since they are national units. that and they did not have the 2% bombard added to them.

other then that .... have to say this has imho replaced the current evoltion from FFH... the combination is outstanding.

ok , i have had the chance to play 2 games really well now....

Wow, you play fast. :eek: I would be unable to play two games in such short time even when playing all the time.
Anyway, great to see you enjoyed yourself. :goodjob: I try to balance my modding for multiplayer, so good to see it seems to be a success.

Btw, a couple questions:
1) Did defensive withdrawals see its use in combat?
2) Was city capturing very different without the city raider/garrison promotions?

1- fort improvements ( +25% def , +1 visiability , +1 first strike ) split at differing techs.

While from a multiplayer point of view it would be neat to have forts provide other stuff like increased vision, better healing etc, I'm reluctant to add this until the AI can be relied upon to man their forts. So hopefully this can be added in the future, but for now, until the ZoC sees some testing, I think I'll keep the mechanic as simple as possible.

2- forest stealth needs to be opened to non-recon units. i dont think they all shoudl have it , but the option shoudl be there. i was thinking with combat 3 and forest 2. this makes would restrict it more or less to elves while allowing a bit more flexibility in longstanding units.

Combat III and Woodsman II would be impossible without making a new promotion, but I'll change the prerequisites for Forest Stealth to Woodsman I and (Combat II or Woodsman II) and make it available for Archer, Disciple and Mounted units. That way:
1) All recons can get Forest Stealth. Nothing changed here.
2) The Archers of Leaves, Longbowman etc under Fellowship of Leaves will be able to get Forest Stealth.
3) All Archer, Disciple and Mounted Elves can get Forest Stealth as well.
Giving the option to Melee would cause some problems though as they can already get Woodsman I.

3- atm elves rely a bit too much on the recon units (might be playstyle but the others i was playing with agreed)

The Elven Longbowman has 7 strength, so that's a very good unit too. But of course Bowyers is an expensive tech. For version 2 I've reduced the cost of Bowyers and increased that of Animal Handling, so they're more or less the same. Let's see how that changes research paths.

waht we were thinking is thats city raider and city garison should or could work in forts ( but then again those are nto seen often except in heroes now)

I'd like that! In fact that already exists in Warlords. If that was added and forts were used a lot, I'd remove the Combat V requirement for City Raider and Garrison again. Unfortunately it's an SDK change and I can't do that. Perhaps you could ask Kael to include this in FfH? :cool: The more people ask it, the more chance it gets included I guess.

1- could the units that are given witht he rage tech have some advancements opened to them? basically barrage and accuracy. the reason being is these are the only units that have collateral damage and its useless since they are national units.

You mean Berserkers? I'll make them start with Barrage 1 and make Barrage 2/3 available as a choice for melee units. That way Berserkers can promote along that path, but other units not (to prevent the AI choosing useless promotions). I definitely won't let them get Accuracy though. I like it being slow but possible to reduce city defenses without siege units, but if you want to EXCEL at it, you'll still have to build those units.

that and they did not have the 2% bombard added to them.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what people would think of melee being able to bombard, so I didn't bother with the tier4 yet, as doing all those changes is rather time-consuming. :mischief:

Anyway, version 2 is being prepared, but I can't put a date on it.

While from a multiplayer point of view it would be neat to have forts provide other stuff like increased vision, better healing etc, I'm reluctant to add this until the AI can be relied upon to man their forts. Some onse posted some code to this effect in a nearby thread, did you see it?

Yes, but if I understand correctly it's SDK code, so I'd have to rely on you convincing the FfH team to add it. ;)

You could get away with it by stuffing all the bonuses into a promotion and giving it out via Python, such as how normal FfH handles Sentry Towers. Or are they controlled by SDK code, as well? I never checked, myself.

Giving forts promotions would be simple. It's making the AI use them that requires SDK.

You mean Berserkers? I'll make them start with Barrage 1 and make Barrage 2/3 available as a choice for melee units. That way Berserkers can promote along that path, but other units not (to prevent the AI choosing useless promotions). I definitely won't let them get Accuracy though. I like it being slow but possible to reduce city defenses without siege units, but if you want to EXCEL at it, you'll still have to build those units.

In FfH I never build siege units. The mages/archmages with fire promotions are much more effective and versitile. I have not tried our your mod yet, but unless you changed the way the spells work (which I didn't read about) I doubt this would change much. There is just not much value in building catipults when a few well placed fireballs have the same effect with less risk and the ability to cast other spells in following rounds after the defenses are gone.

Just my opinion of course. I think the siege weapons are just about worthless in FfH.

In FfH I never build siege units. The mages/archmages with fire promotions are much more effective and versitile. I have not tried our your mod yet, but unless you changed the way the spells work (which I didn't read about) I doubt this would change much. There is just not much value in building catipults when a few well placed fireballs have the same effect with less risk and the ability to cast other spells in following rounds after the defenses are gone.

Just my opinion of course. I think the siege weapons are just about worthless in FfH.
I personally disagree. Fire mages are a long term investment while siege weapons can be built in just one or two turns.

I think the siege weapons are just about worthless in FfH.

I agree. Besides Fireballs there are also the Nilhorn, Ritualists and Confessors. I still have to play a game where I find catapults useful. For version 2 I've lowered the siege workshop cost to 120. I don't see why a less useful unit should take a bigger investment.

ok , to clear up a couple of thoughts...

if the fort bonuses were added as seperate bonuses across teh techs and teh AI was weighting them as individual traits , woud that not lead the AI to use forts more often as they get better with them.

also , about the tier 4 and collateral .. the reason i suggested accuracy was pretty much only for the balor. its the only unit that i know of from rage that does not get collateral damage but gets city attack instead. (kinda jsut made sense that it could tear down walls)

have you debated anymore about the culture is greater then walls effect yet?

Yeah, about those unit-granting buildings, they're a real pain to have to build in every city. I can see why they're there, but if they were set up more like religions (maybe call them guilds or something), I think it'd be a lot more intuitive.

You'd have a set of 4-5 non-followable religions (like Cult of the Dragon) that are founded upon the research of such-and-such techs (the same techs that allow the buildings we have now), and spread out to other cities like a religion would. If you miss out on getting the tech first, you'd still get the guild spread to your capital, but you wouldn't get the Holy City. If someone spreads the guild to your capital, you get the founding tech for free.

All the units currently tied to buildings would be tied to the guild instead, and the buildings would simply give XP boni (essentially they'd become "temples"). For spreading the guilds, you could either let it happen automatically or use a "Guildsman" unit (available with Trade) to spread it manually.

Benefits:
*Unit-granting buildings become optional.
*Allows spread of unit-making to other civs (so civs living near each other would have similar units).
*Opens slots for guild-specific wonders and "Holy Cities" (Catacomb Libralus could be set up to require the Mages Guild instead of a Mages Guild :lol:)
*Provides an alternate form of tech trading.

Drawbacks:
*Screws up mechanics that rely on the number of religions in the city. (Theocracy, Inquisitor, etc.)
*Messes up the Religion Advisor screen (maybe we could add a flag "Don't Show in Advisor Screen"?)

I'm still working on a tech tree. I think it'll be pretty tough to reconcile the religious, military, sorcerous and economic branches together in one try. I think I'm going to have the first four tiers pretty well wrapped up, but after that it gets more complex. Here's what I have so far:

_______________________________________________ ___________________________________ ______________________________________ _______________________________________
|Agriculture | |Crafting | |Exploration | |Ancient Chants |
|-----------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------| |--------------------------------------| |---------------------------------------|
|Allows Farm, Granary, Herbalist | |Allows Brewery, Winery | |Allows +1 Road Moves, Open Borders | |Allows Race Slaying Promotions, Obelisk|
|Leads to Festivals, Animal Husbandry, Education| |Leads to Mining, Masonry, Education| |Leads to Hunting, Cartography, Fishing| |Leads to Education, Mysticism |
|_______________________________________________| |___________________________________| |______________________________________| |_______________________________________|
| | | | ______________________| | |____________ | |
_______________________________|__________ ____________|__________________________ ______________________________________|________ _________|________________ _________________________________________|____ ___________________________|_______ ________________|______________________ ________________________________________|_____ ________________|_________________________________ ___________
|Animal Husbandry | |Festivals | |Mining | |Masonry | |Hunting | |Cartography | |Fishing | |Education | |Mysticism |
|------------------------------------------| |---------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------| |--------------------------| |----------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------| |---------------------------------------| |----------------------------------------------| |-------------------------------------------------------------|
|Allows Pasture, Horses, Smokehouse | |Allows Carnival, Market | |Allows Mine, Copper | |Allows Walls, Quarry, CotS| |Allows Hunting Lodge, Camp | |Allows Trade Maps, PotN | |Allows Work Water Tiles, Fishing Boats | |Allows Cottage, Apprenticeship, City States | |Allows God King, Elder Council, Pagan Temple |
|Reqs Agriculture | |Reqs Agriculture | |Reqs Crafting | |Reqs Crafting | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Exploration | |Reqs Ancient Chants, [Agriculture or Crafting]| |Reqs Ancient Chants |
|Leads to Horseback Riding, Animal Handling| |Leads to Drama, Bronze Working, Archery| |Leads to Bronze Working, Way of the Earthmother| |Leads to Construction | |Leads to Tracking, Archery, Way of the Forests| |Leads to Horseback Riding, Tracking| |Leads to Sailing, Message from the Deep| |Leads to Writing, Code of Laws | |Leads to Philosophy, Knowledge of the Ether, WotF, WotE, MftD|
|__________________________________________| |_______________________________________| |_______________________________________________| |__________________________| |______________________________________________| |___________________________________| |_______________________________________| |______________________________________________| |_________________________________________________ ____________|

___________________________________ _____________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____ __________________________________________________ _____________________ _______________________________________________ ____________________________________
|Horseback Riding (with Cartography)| |Bronze Working | |Way of the Earthmother (with Mysticism) | |Construction | |Tracking | |Archery (with Festivals and Hunting)|
|-----------------------------------| |-------------------------------------| |-------------------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------------| |------------------------------------|
|Allows Horseman, Stables | |Allows Axeman, Training Yard, Trireme| |Allows Thane, Temple, Soldier of Kilmorph, Founds Runes| |Allows Catapult, Siege Workshop, Spreads Irrigation, Improves Workshops| |Allows Sentry I, Hunter | |Allows Archery Range, Archer |
|Reqs Animal Husbandry, Cartography | |Reqs Festivals, Mining | |Reqs Mining, Mysticism | |Reqs Masonry | |Reqs Hunting, Cartography | |Reqs Festivals, Hunting |
|Leads to Trade, Warfare | |Leads to Smelting, Bowyers | |Leads to Arete | |Leads to Sanitation, Mathematics, Arete | |Leads to Stealth, Animal Handling, Hidden paths| |Leads to Warfare |
|___________________________________| |_____________________________________| |_________________________________________________ ______| |_________________________________________________ ______________________| |_______________________________________________| |____________________________________|

FALL FROM HEAVEN
RISE OF MANIA
Version 2

THEMATIC CHANGELOG


The two main foci of this second version are civics and terrain improvement. Especially terrain improvements touch the basic economy of Civ, so it’s important to test this. I’m now gonna do that, and leave version 1 up in the first post in the meantime. If others want to try out version 2 in the meanwhile as well, you’re of course more than welcome to.

FfH Rise of Mania version 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania_v2.zip)

Civics

I have to say I’m not fond of Aussie Lurker’s civic changes. Many civics partly return to their prior situation. I also don’t really understand what’s the improvement in making three cultural civics available from the start. Especially since you can immediately switch to another civic, the initial civic means little. Then I personally prefer situation where you have to b-line to some tech to get a civic you like.

Reason for Religion change: religious tolerance is bad! ;) Reason for Sacrifice the Weak change: evil civs and religions seem to me to be about elitist ideals, about one being better than the masses, so in that light a great people point penalty is the opposite of what one would expect. Also, Sacrifice The Weak has been made a little more attractive by getting some diseased corpses from your diseased units dying, so less need for a +10% gold bonus I guess.

1. God King no longer provides state religion happiness. Forbidden Palace provides +2 happiness. Winter Palace +3 happiness.
2. Aristocracy: requires Monarchy. No more farm effects. Provides military happiness. Basically the former Hereditary Rule civic.
3. Default cultural civic added: Naturalism. No effects.
4. Religion requires Mysticism. Provides +1 happiness with Pagan Temple and no longer all five religious temples.
5. Pacifism requires Philosophy. Provides +75% Great People points.
6. Nationhood requires Fanaticism. Provides +2 happiness with Training Yard. Can draft three units per turn. No military production bonus anymore.
7. Arete provides +1 hammer to Dwarven Halls, Dwarven Town and Dwarven Metropolis.
8. Military State: Can no longer hurry with gold. Can no longer draft. Provides free unit maintenance for 25% of the population.
9. Serfdom: Can no longer hurry with gold.
10. Caste System no longer causes unhappiness in largest cities, no longer can hurry with gold, and no longer gives +1 beaker per specialist.
11. Guilds: Can no longer appoint unlimited artists. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
12. Agriculture provides +10% food production, but no more farm effects.
13. Mercantilism: Can hurry with gold. Improvements upgrade 50% faster.
14. Foreign Trade: Can hurry gold.
15. Sacrifice The Weak no longer provides +10% gold, nor suffers a -20% Great People point penalty.
16. All civs’ initial cultural civic changed to Naturalism.

Nomadism

This new economic civic requires some more explanation. The effects: Requires Animal Husbandry. Low upkeep. -10% food production. Pasture provides +1 hammer. Can draft three nomadic units per turn, two pop per unit. Can build nomadic chariot, nomadic horseman, nomadic horse archer.
Of course having moving cities would be most fitting for a Nomadism civic, but barring that, I figured being able to draft nomadic units was the closest equivalent. Then you can still evacuate some forces if a “city” is threatened. So what do these three nomadic units do? They have the same stats as their “sedentary” equivalents, except:
1) They don’t have a buildings prerequisite. No need to build stables or an archery range.
2) They can found cities.
3) They can build pastures.
4) The Nomadic Horse Archer has strength 6.
The Hippus variants have one more movement point, and +10% withdrawal chance, as usual.

1. Nomadism: new Economy civic. Requires Animal Husbandry. Low upkeep. -10% food production. Pasture provides +1 hammer. Can draft three nomadic units per turn. Can build nomadic chariot, nomadic horseman, nomadic horse archer.
2. Minimal population for drafting lowered to three.
3. Nomadic Horseman, Chariot, Horse Archer, Raider, Hippus Chariot and Brigand added.
4. Animal Husbandry no longer requires Agriculture. Beaker cost is reduced to the same as Agriculture: 125.
5. Archer and Crossbowman gain +50% defense against Nomadic Chariot and Horse Archer.
6. Hippus starting tech is Animal Husbandry and initial economic civic Nomadism. Added three nomadic unique units.
7. Luchuirp, Khazad and Clan of Embers can’t build Nomadic Horse Archer.

Terrain Improvement

The big change here is replacing the farm <-> cottage opposition as most common terrain improvement strategies by farm<->pasture, and combining the farm with the cottage->town line. Besides stopping the endless cottage spam versus specialist strategy debates ;) another good thing is it makes much more sense from a realism point of view. Large cities arise in fertile agricultural lands, and great people (or what they represent) arise in advanced civilizations (civitas = city). The opposition between farm and town is really silly.

An opposition between a sedentary and nomadic lifestyle makes more sense. The Pasture is now the low investment, low requirement improvement with average returns. The farm->metropolis line gives a higher return, but it requires a heavier investment in worker turns, and has more requirements (freshwater). It also takes longer to upgrade to the next improvement. First reason: everything takes longer to build in FfH; so should terrain improvements. Second reason: I want to make towns even more important to protect. Makes for some more interesting warfare I think. The pillage rewards are also significantly increased. Needs testing of course.

I’ve also added a new forest terrain improvement. An attempt to get AI Priest of Leaves to bloom forests. Let’s hope it works…

1. Workshop removed.
2. Plantation provides +2 commerce with Currency.
3. Quarry provides +1 hammer with Engineering.
4. Pasture can be built on all Plains and Grassland. Pasture provides +1 hammer, +1 gold. +1 gold with Stirrups and +1 hammer with Warhorses. Pasturing a horse and cow provides one less hammer. Pasturing a pig and sheep one less food.
5. Camp provides +1 hammer with Commune With Nature.
6. Farm: Pillaging provides 15 gold. Upgrades to Village in 30 turns.
7. Village provides one more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 30 gold. Upgrades to Town in 60 turns.
8. Town provides two more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 60 gold. Upgrades to Metropolis in 120 turns.
9. Metropolis provides three more commerce than Farm. Pillaging provides 120 gold.
10. Dwarven Mine upgrades to Dwarven Halls in 30 turns.
11. Dwarven Halls provide one more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Halls upgrade to Dwarven Town in 60 turns.
12. Dwarven Town provides two more commerce than Dwarven Mine. Dwarven Town upgrades to Dwarven Metropolis in 120 turns.
13. Dwarven Metropolis provides one food and two more commerce than Dwarven Mine.
14. Terrace terrain improvement added. Same as farm except it can only be built on hills.
15. New Forest terrain improvement added.
16. Fort cannot be built directly on Ancient Forest.
17. Farm and Elven Farm build time increased to 800.
18. Mine build time increased to 600.
19. Build Town, Dwarven Town & Elven Town option added. Buildtime 10000. Requires Mercantilism.
20. Build New Forest option added. Attempt to get AI Priest of Leaves to create forests.
21. Build Terrace option added. Buildtime 1200. Requires Construction.
22. Build Elven Terrace option added. Same as Terrace, except it can be built on forest.
23. Slave and Worker Build options revised according to new terrain improvements.
24. Priest of Leaves gets Worker AI and can Build New Forest.
25. War Machine settlement destruction adapted to new terrain improvements.
26. The New Forest terrain improvement also turns into Forest.

Miscellaneous

Things that don’t need special explanation.

1. River gives a -40% combat penalty.
2. Thieves’ Guild no longer reduces gold income.
3. Hall of Kings requires Divine Right instead of Theology.
4. Siege Workshop cost lowered to 120.
5. Bowyers cost reduced to 1600.
6. Hunting cost reduced to 200.
7. Tracking cost reduced to 275.
8. Hunter (+8 UUs) requires Tracking instead of Hunting.
9. Animal Handling cost increased to 1600.
10. Ranger (+7 UUs) cost reduced to 120.
11. Gunpowder is enabled by Alchemy.
12. Man O’ War requires the Blasting Powder technology.
13. Melee units can get Barrage 2 & 3.
14. Berserker (+5 UUs, not the Balor) starts with Barrage 1.
15. Knight (+ 6 UUs) gains +1 strength and iPower.
16. Immortal (+9 UUs), Berserker (+6 UUs), Shield Wall (+2 UUs), Spartiatoi (+6 UUs) can bombard 2% per turn.
17. Forest Stealth requires Woodsman I and (Combat II OR Woodsman II). Archer, Disciple and Mounted units can also acquire it.

Bug fixes

1. Balor no longer has the Collateral AI assigned.
2. Soldier of Kilmorph no longer has the Worker AI assigned.
3. Disciples can also get the Homeland promotion.

if the fort bonuses were added as seperate bonuses across teh techs and teh AI was weighting them as individual traits

What does that mean?

also , about the tier 4 and collateral .. the reason i suggested accuracy was pretty much only for the balor. its the only unit that i know of from rage that does not get collateral damage but gets city attack instead. (kinda jsut made sense that it could tear down walls)

The Balor is a UU of the unplayable Infernal civ. They're also a summoned creature, but I guess the FfH team considered them too powerful having collateral damage on top of their already high strength.

have you debated anymore about the culture is greater then walls effect yet?

The Walls needed a boost of course, to have a reason to build it instead of an obelisk. But are further defensive boni beyond that still needed?? You'll rarely see culture defense above 75%. Buildings however can give 125% by Walls, Castle and the Stone Wall spell alone.

Chandrasekhar:
Sorry dude, but personally I don't really like the changes you propose. I like a tech tree in which you can specialize, and are not tied down all the time by numerous AND tech prerequisites. Btw, in case you're interested, on Apolyton I wrote down my take on tech tree design (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4661510#post4661510).

Looks interesting. Are you taking requests for features?

On second thought, could people please post ideas for grand new features in the normal FfH threads? If people have played Rise of Mania, and have feedback on the changes, or some concrete suggestion to improve on the new stuff I introduced, I'd of course love to read your comments and experiences!

I hope this thread doesn't sink to the bottom of the forum now. :mischief:

On second thought, could people please post ideas for grand new features in the normal FfH threads? If people have played Rise of Mania, and have feedback on the changes, or some concrete suggestion to improve on the new stuff I introduced, I'd of course love to read your comments and experiences!

I hope this thread doesn't sink to the bottom of the forum now. :mischief:

I dont think there is any fear of that, this is amazing work and it comes at a perfect time. When we start gearing up for our next release (no time soon) we will be sitting down and playing a lot of your mod to see what to incorporate. So Im anxious to see how your mod develops until then.

1. God King no longer provides state religion happiness. Forbidden Palace provides +2 happiness. Winter Palace +3 happiness.I wouldn't recommend this because it means that in order to get the happyness beneftis of God king you must have a large empire, while previously god king was best for small ones and sity states for large ones.

gonna re-address my points in reverse

1 - i often have cities in the 100% culture valaure and often take cities at that level. personally i feel i shoudl not NEED wall of earth or the elohim building to surpass this. typicaly though if you build an obelisk , a temple , and the other non-demonination temple (mind blank) you will hit it easily. ( lil harder if you do runes). 50% for walls comes when it shoudl but with the time needed for fanatasim having castles give 100 is valid imho. personally i feel wall of earth is fine at 25% , bu the elohim building shoudl be boostd to 50% due to them being the defensie civ.

2 - for balors being unplayable i seem to see them ALOT and use them every so often. anytime i play veil i get to summon them. sometime i learm to mind control them. anytime i play as a summoner they last long enough to get promotions. also i feel it would allow a sense of completeness for later when you can play the infernals. ( or for those who altered it to play them ).

2a - note i dont feel balors should have colateral , only accuracy in busting walls faster.

3 - please keep in mind that i am not a programmer atm. i have read posts in which they have taught the AI through weighting to sit in towers that provide +1 visibility. would it be safe to assume you can teach an AI to sit in squares with the highest defensive bonus? sit in squares that allow first strike? or really any other bonus? now if it had a way to sum up all of this weighting imho it would be put in a situation to certainly use forts.

Ok, I finally got to play enough of this mod to feel like I can comment and a new version is out! :p

Anyway, my comments:

* I really like what you've done with the "melee" horse line, but I find I don't bother with the "archer" mounted units if I have any access to metals for upgrading.

* This slowing effect from proximity to enemy cities is a good idea, but as a consequence I have really grown to depend even more on mages than I did before since they can still bombard from range (although fireballs/meteors are also effected by the city-proximity effect). If I use mages, the city is softened up enogh byt he time my troops actually get there that siege weaponry is a waste... not to mention, I understand you have given some of this functionality to certain melee units? When will they get to use it? I'll admit I've mostly been going horse-crazy since I started playing this mod and haven't built many melee units to test them out. Is there anything in here to make siege units more attractive, or anything planned? I find I'd rather build a stable and pump out more horses than bother with siege workshops... ever.

I guess that's about it. Love the mod and these new additions sound exciting. I can't wait to check it out!

ok , having played version 2.....

1 - i LOVE how long it takes to develope cottages and such , however there is a smallish downside. if one civ has access to financial resources and the others dont, they will dominate the game.

2 - forts need to be allowed in great forests. havinf your defenses wiped at random is silly.

3 - the lanun are still in a world of hurt. i have not played sureshots mod atm , but cout you check it out and possible steal the lanun code?

4 - my personal thoughts is that +1 happy into a single civic is to much. i had outlined a breaking in a previous thread. (again this is my opinion)

5 - if we are willing to look into civs buildign differently a few things i think shoudl be looked into...
5a -- are the civs faming traits building based or technique? (i prefer technique and woudl rather see all special farms and such destroyed when out of borders.
5b -- there are several changes to be looked at....
5ba --- lanun workboats inproving water
5bb --- orc workers building in jungle
5bc --- desert farms for desert dwellers
5bd --- ice farms for ice dwellers
5be --- calabim should provide food over gold im many cases.

I wondered if you have been following the ZOC-Forts thread and thought of including that? It would be a nice addition to test here, though I have to wonder if the FfH team is already working with it, so it may be something to wait to be included.

Dal,in response to your ideas with my ideas on them :)
1 - I actually find the cottages time to build to be too long... with farms/mines building upward with gold, there doesn't seem to be ANY reason to build them... I just feel like its too much making them worthless instead of just less desirable.
2. The Great Forrest has a number of benefits on its own, including the potential to generate a Treant(if you ar FoL). Seems like adding a benefit like forts to it might be overkill.
3. I have never tried the Lanun, so no comment
4. I don't see any problem with a +1 Happiness in civics... its about balancing, as long as cost/ other disadvantages even things out. That said, I wonder if the latest build didn't "nerf" civivs too much. seems like to omany gold-build options were reomved, and Caste is left with only a +2 culture, seems really like its lost too much, despite the greatly lowered cost.
5. Might be nice to see more civ specialization. Its heading that way, there are several more stages to FfH with Civs getting individual attention as it goes, so we may just be able to wait... that said,
ba- might be a nice option.. maybe a special workboat that gives a chance of discovering resources, like mines do, and gives a +1f/+1com.
bb- I can't see much wrong with that, per se, but since jungles seem to kill all the plot benefits, it seems like it would be useless to improve on them.. better jsut to wipe them out.
bc- What would one farm for in a a desert? said dwellers alread get the benefit of defense and movement in deserts when others get penalties.
bd- Same as above, what would one farm for? perhaps... um ice... might be worth a commerce or 2... its a psuedo midevil world, I would guess having ice would be a big benefit to the nobles anyway.
be- they already have the breeding pits and thier vampire units feed off the units, I would guess they would feel the need for cash as much as the next greedy ruling class, I don't know why they would sacrifice production falue just to pump out a few more bushels of grain.

Just my thoughts on it...

Cheers!

One thing I would prefer is the ability to build forts earlier. By the time I was able to research mathematics I was already hip-deep in several wars, and their use in protecting my frontier was minor. Perhaps as part of the exploration tech or just have everyone start with it. It would lead to more meaningful choices earlier (improve my city tiles or build forts).


Everything else seems great. Keep up the good work. :goodjob:

ok blaze , i understand what your saying however ...

1 - taking cottages now over the pastures is a debate over long or short term goals. side note ... the pillageing numbers are off. i love how painful it is to have your terrain pillaged , it forces you to defend your territory and not jsut hole up in a seige (or forces you into hard choices)
1a - also note there are 2 civics that allow a 50% increase in the rate that they grow.
1b - also note there are techs that allow you to build (with workers) the advanced stages of these improvements

2 - i agree , but imho its either allowing forts in great forests or make it so that forests will nto advance to great forests if a fort is present.

4 - my otehr thread talks about spreading the ahppy bonus across several civics (the more militaristic of them) at a fractional value. so its less of a bonus on any single civic and much bigger if you go more warlike.

5 - the problem with many civs is that they excell at a given terrain as far as combat is concerned. however combat bonuses are USELESS if you cannot produce the units in that terrain. any civ would natually learn to grow and develope in a climate they are suited for. that brings me to the discussion about building techniques vs usage techniques. imho all elven farms shoudl convert to farms where possible or be destroyed if in forests (this rule shoudl apply to all civs). then if elves take over farms they shoudl automatically be considered elven farms. by removing the concept of the improvement of elven farms and elven workers and sayign that any worker that an elf controls can build farms in trees as long as its within thier borders you can completely avoid this concept. it would be hard to programm i think , but would be the best solution....

Just a thought, but in the one instance of Runes of Kilmorph, would it make sense that a Great Engineer could also (or instead of) build the Tablets of Bamber?

3 - the lanun are still in a world of hurt. i have not played sureshots mod atm , but cout you check it out and possible steal the lanun code?
havent done that yet, just something im considering because the graphics/mechanic already exists and lanun sorely need a way to improve things later on

I dont think there is any fear of that, this is amazing work and it comes at a perfect time. When we start gearing up for our next release (no time soon) we will be sitting down and playing a lot of your mod to see what to incorporate. So Im anxious to see how your mod develops until then.

Thanks. For the moment though I've kinda run out of great ideas. :( I'd like to have a dynamic tier 4 national unit limit, making it dependent on the number of corresponding tier 3 units and on civics (eg Theocracy can have double as many Inquisitors). Problem is the current FfH tech tree doesn't really lend itself to this. There should be extra incentives to research the currently only military "tier4 techs", but I can't really think of anything interesting now.

I wouldn't recommend this because it means that in order to get the happyness beneftis of God king you must have a large empire, while previously god king was best for small ones and sity states for large ones.

The smaller your empire, the better God King becomes, and the worse City States. I don't think some extra happiness changes that. What that extra happiness does though, is keep the God King civic useful longer as your empire grows. So when having a large empire, you hopefully now have an extra choice.

gonna re-address my points in reverse

1 - i often have cities in the 100% culture valaure and often take cities at that level.

Really? Wow, that' s a completely different experience than me. But then again, I don't care at all about culture except in a couple border cities. How many turns do your games usually last? Anyway, I've put the Elohim defense boost on my list of ideas, but I'm hesitant to make changes to a civ I haven't played yet myself. :mischief: (Did I already mention I'm a REALLY slow player?)

2a - note i dont feel balors should have colateral , only accuracy in busting walls faster.

Every time you summon a Balor, God kills a catapult. Err... or something. Balor having accuracy would completely remove the need for siege weapons.

3 - please keep in mind that i am not a programmer atm. i have read posts in which they have taught the AI through weighting to sit in towers that provide +1 visibility. would it be safe to assume you can teach an AI to sit in squares with the highest defensive bonus? sit in squares that allow first strike? or really any other bonus? now if it had a way to sum up all of this weighting imho it would be put in a situation to certainly use forts.

I think this would require SDK changes. Can't do those. :(

* I really like what you've done with the "melee" horse line, but I find I don't bother with the "archer" mounted units if I have any access to metals for upgrading.

Have you tried out defensive withdrawals? Anyway, I'm now gonna play a Tasunke game, so I should be able to see myself. :D

* This slowing effect from proximity to enemy cities is a good idea, but as a consequence I have really grown to depend even more on mages than I did before since they can still bombard from range. If I use mages, the city is softened up enogh byt he time my troops actually get there that siege weaponry is a waste...

Good point. How about reducing fireballs to one movement point? I guess it might make them less fun to play with :( but I guess that doesn't matter if other aspects of the game become more fun and used as a consequence.

(although fireballs/meteors are also effected by the city-proximity effect).

Ugh that's a bug. Will have to fix that. Thanks for mentioning it! :)

not to mention, I understand you have given some of this functionality to certain melee units? When will they get to use it?

In the early game, before any other options are available. Reason for adding this is I want city capturing to be a realistic (if slow) option all the time. "Must-have" techs or units distract from strategic choice IMO.

I'll admit I've mostly been going horse-crazy since I started playing this mod and haven't built many melee units to test them out. Is there anything in here to make siege units more attractive, or anything planned? I find I'd rather build a stable and pump out more horses than bother with siege workshops... ever.

I don't really understand this. :confused: I'd say mounted and siege units perform a completely different role.

I wondered if you have been following the ZOC-Forts thread and thought of including that? It would be a nice addition to test here, though I have to wonder if the FfH team is already working with it, so it may be something to wait to be included.

It's SDK and I can't do that. I hope too the FfH team is or will be working on it. :D

That said, I wonder if the latest build didn't "nerf" civivs too much. seems like to omany gold-build options were reomved,

Two other civics received the option to hurry gold though, and gold hurrying is cheaper now. Anyway, I'm hoping for a spending cap to do something really interesting with this.

and Caste is left with only a +2 culture, seems really like its lost too much, despite the greatly lowered cost.

Don't you use the civic at all anymore? What civics do you use now?

One thing I would prefer is the ability to build forts earlier. By the time I was able to research mathematics I was already hip-deep in several wars, and their use in protecting my frontier was minor. Perhaps as part of the exploration tech or just have everyone start with it. It would lead to more meaningful choices earlier (improve my city tiles or build forts).

How about forts buildable with masonry, and them providing +1 hammer with Mathematics? (Military colonies can also provide resources)

2 - i agree , but imho its either allowing forts in great forests or make it so that forests will nto advance to great forests if a fort is present.

I made forts unbuildable in ancient forests for aesthetic reasons. :mischief: My fear is that if forest with forts can't upgrade, this will hurt the AI who doesn't realize forests can upgrade. However I did increase the movement points necessary to pass ancient forest to three. So aren't more or less all units already stopped by moving into an ancient forest? Anyway, if you consider forests with forts better than ancient forests (do you?), I'd consider increasing the treant spawn chance.

4 - my otehr thread talks about spreading the ahppy bonus across several civics (the more militaristic of them) at a fractional value. so its less of a bonus on any single civic and much bigger if you go more warlike.

I don't think fractional happiness boni are possible. Are they? :confused:

5 - the problem with many civs is that they excell at a given terrain as far as combat is concerned. however combat bonuses are USELESS if you cannot produce the units in that terrain. any civ would natually learn to grow and develope in a climate they are suited for.

Regarding the civs-and-their-native-terrain discussion, people don't live in marginal lands because they want to, but because they have no other choice. So it would kinda feel strange to me to make tundra and desert as good as plains or grasslands for the Malakim and Doviello. I would suggest to play with dreiche's maps. There the civs start in their native terrain. It's then your job to expand them into better terrain.

For special civs like the Infernals and Illians, I'm hoping though the FfH team will do something special, and make it advantageous for the Infernals to cover the whole world in Fallout, and for the Illians to cover the whole world in Ice. This could create some interesting Armageddon battles.

that brings me to the discussion about building techniques vs usage techniques. imho all elven farms shoudl convert to farms where possible or be destroyed if in forests (this rule shoudl apply to all civs). then if elves take over farms they shoudl automatically be considered elven farms. by removing the concept of the improvement of elven farms and elven workers and sayign that any worker that an elf controls can build farms in trees as long as its within thier borders you can completely avoid this concept. it would be hard to programm i think , but would be the best solution....

Yeah I was thinking of writing some events that eg turn a Dwarven mine into a normal mine outside of Khazad territory. My worry though is that if this check has to be made for every terrain improvement at the beginning of each player's turn, this will slow down the game. :(

hmm , kinda left int he dark on where to start ....

in most games we stop around turn 300 ... and i play typically at emporer difficulty with friends playing at monarch.

let me try and explain some things that i have experienced for you to understand and/or test yourself.

1 - take any city , build an obelisk , a temple , and a pagan temple... thats base 3-5 + 30% (base 7 if creative)(add 0-2 for religion if you can) so your making 4-12 per turn with a median around 6-7. 75% culture defense is actually kinda easy. now to compare defenses. you get 50% from walls (if you have construstion), 25% from elohim building(at priesthood), and 50% from a castle (at fanatacism), 25% from wall of earth (earthmana+knowledge of ether) .... now thats a grand total of 150% if you can have em all, and its pretty late game imho. odds are your getting your walls when i am at 50% and your castle around the time i hit the 100% mark. you may or may not ever see the other 2 bonuses. point being .... never seen a use in walls except that i need them to build castles.... only need castles for a few units

2 - i hear ALOT of talk about useing mages instead of siege weapons. thats great since the AI is blind and stupid. there are 2 constant deterants to mages (and fireballs) in our games......
a -- calvary moves well now and has a significant place is dealing with mages unless the mages are heavily defended. but honestly the longest range your going to see from a fireball is 5 squares. getting a 5 square move on my own lands is easy.
b -- culteral borders allow sight to 1 hex past the border , so in order to suprise someone with those mages you have to be out of sight and in most cases out of range.
c -- never underestimate hawks
d -- where is the defenders mages?

3 - as an experiment get a friend to play as an aggresor and you as a defender. you play as amelechor(sp)(the elf with raider). all of your units start with with combat 1 and commando. your going to rush for leaves since its only common sense and then start mass making your basic archers of leaves. then your prolly going to go for hidden paths to for the civic and its nice , i would. then education? now its ugly... what you have starting is an archer with base (combat 1 , commando, woodsman 1) and starting with 3 exp (fend for themselves + education) this gives them woodsman 2. at a base your looking at your simple str 3 archer with 1 first strike and a 180% bonus in his woods. put him on a hill and its 215%, in a fort 240%. personally i find str 10 units hard to fight agains at this point. now the rush for pristhood takes off so the rest of yoru tiles are turned into forests and then you deveope horses for counter attack. by now you shoudl be over 5xp starting on all your units and might even have some near 10. every promo chain should be ... woods 1 , woods 2 , forest stealth ... then combat 1-5. this makes you almost impossible to attack unless they truely come enmass.

3conclusion - the point i am trying to get at ... you finally changed FFH to force you to develope a WIDE army , one with EVERY troop type. agains an intellegent foe massing any units is fatal and keeping them alone is also fatal. the only way to truely protect them is in a city (thenks to ZoC and anti summon tower). most of what your hearing of tactics is vs the comp at easy settings... sorry.

4 - fractional happies.... teh comp will not record fractions , in fact from what i have read it truncates everything. however i am pretty sure you can have it add the decimals before displaying. then it will truncate at the display point.
example .. (.4 from aristocracy + .3 from mil trad. + .3 conquest = 1 happy)
example .. (.4 from aristocracy x 3 units = 1.2 ... aka 1 happy)

5 - ok , on the balor and accuracy point .... your right , 1 civ has access and can use it (and use it well mind you). but its a completeness point. could ya humor me? once the inferanal are in it will make more sense anyway.

Maniac, not sure if you were aware, but Kael released the SDK code for .16, its current and somewhere on this forum... not sure if you don't want to encroach on this becuase of a knowledge barrier, or you just don't want to dig into that monster with all the other changes you are/can make without it, but its there.
Actually ment to check on the ZOC thread, since I don't know where its at in its development right now.. looks like bdmarti has some impressive stuff outlined... if I can find time today, maybe I'll put it together and test it with your mod... let you know later.

Cheers!

daladinn makes good points. I tend to play at monarch level against the computer and it probably is too easy. I don't know if I've ever even seen the computer fielding mages, much less archmages... I have seen the ocasional summoner though. I'm usually rampaging through my neighbors soon after I have gotten Mages myself.

Against knowledgable humans I'm sure its a totally different game. Compensating for AI weaknesses shouldn't take away from the multiplayer experience. I should probably up my difficulty level.

One thing I meant to mention about forts is that since they are the only thing that can be built in jungles for some time, you tend to see the AI civs that start in the warmer, wetter climes spamming their jungles with them. I think clearing jungles should come sooner (because kilmorph is somewhat hamstringed without gems and most gems tend to be in jungles). I also think frigates come too soon. Another unit that can bombard cities without a building prerequisite, even if only coastal cities, just gives me another reason to ignore siege.

Thats more or less what I meant about building siege workshops. It may make taking cities a little easier against the AI with cats, but having to invest in a building as well as the time to actually produce the units, I can't really see mysel taking them over mages or more all-purpose units in general... Probably just because mages seem to be so useful. I expect its all fairly balanced though against another human. I tend to keep almost all my mages in a main stack, but I would cry if I lost them and curse my lack of catapults. :p

so had a bit mroe time for a few more games.... ya ... i am an adict...

few observations...

1 - love the changes the nomadic line gives the hippus. allows them to start strong and stay strong. 1 point i think is a bit much though is allowing horses to build pastures (when all you need/want is pastures) seems a bit excessive. the only reason to build a worker is roads.

2 - i think yo overpowered the khazad a bit with the changes. dont get me wrong , i like them , but upgradeable dwarven mines that are ALSO indestructible is proveing a bit harsh.

thats all for now ... gl and hf

Hopefully I'll be able to reply to your posts tomorrow.
For now... a version 3 with some bug fixes (or rather things not working as I wanted them to) and taking over some patch g stuff. It's patch g compatible and doesn't break save games.


FfH:RoM version 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania_v3.zip)
PS: the changelog in the file states fireballs have been reduced to 1 move. I took this change out again.

1. Minimal population for drafting lowered to one.
2. Drafting costs one pop per 45 hammers.
3. Unhappiness from drafting lowered to 2.
4. Nomadic Hippus Chariot reduced to strength 3, as intended.
5. Ranger (+7 UUs) cost reduced to 120.
6. Galleon cargo capacity increased to 3.
7. Queen of the Line cargo capacity increased to 6.
8. Scout (+8 UUs) can upgrade to Nomadic Horseman and Chariot.
9. Animal Handling cost increased to 1600.
10. Rhoanna’s and Tasunke’s favourite civic is now Nomadism.

2 - i think yo overpowered the khazad a bit with the changes. dont get me wrong , i like them , but upgradeable dwarven mines that are ALSO indestructible is proveing a bit harsh.
After further discussion, I agree that dwarven mines need to be made destructable after they grow past the initial "dwarven mine". Having the dwarven mines indestructible is still cool and appropriate, but having indestructable dwarven metropolises is overpowered.

About the Malakim, the Doviello, and Dreiche's maps; the Malakim almost always start near floodplains, which seems to be a fine tradeoff for having to put up with some extra deserts. Removing the floodplain unhealthiness for them might be a suitably moderate change, but I honestly think they're powerful enough without that, Dreiche maps or no. The Doviello are somewhat different. There's really no advantage to starting in the tundra, even for them (combat bonuses aside). I'd suggest giving them an extra hammer on tundras, and maybe letting them build some extra improvements on them, but I'm also aware that they aren't meant to be a powerful peacetime Civ, so it's not a big issue.

in most games we stop around turn 300 ...
1 - take any city , build an obelisk , a temple , and a pagan temple... thats base 3-5 + 30% (base 7 if creative)(add 0-2 for religion if you can) so your making 4-12 per turn with a median around 6-7.

100% cultural defense requires 5000 culture. 12 culture * 300 turns only gets you at 3600. :confused:

2 - i hear ALOT of talk about useing mages instead of siege weapons. thats great since the AI is blind and stupid. there are 2 constant deterants to mages (and fireballs) in our games......

So you think fireballs are fine like they are?

3

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you consider the situation you described good or bad? (Or was this to show that fireballs are not too powerful?)

Maniac, not sure if you were aware, but Kael released the SDK code for .16, its current and somewhere on this forum... not sure if you don't want to encroach on this becuase of a knowledge barrier, or you just don't want to dig into that monster with all the other changes you are/can make without it, but its there.

It's a knowledge barrier. Also, even if someone was willing to make some changes now, it's possible that person won't be around anymore when Fire phase comes out and the SDK changes would have to be redone. So I'm hesitant to add stuff I don't understand or cannot add myself if necessary.

if I can find time today, maybe I'll put it together and test it with your mod... let you know later.

That would be great. :) If it works well, perhaps the FfH team will consider including it into the official FfH.

One thing I meant to mention about forts is that since they are the only thing that can be built in jungles for some time, you tend to see the AI civs that start in the warmer, wetter climes spamming their jungles with them.

Due to the Commando promotion being available earlier, if the AIs built roads on jungles but not forts, jungle would become an easy invasion route. I guess it doesn't look esthetically, but I assume it improves AI defense.

I think clearing jungles should come sooner (because kilmorph is somewhat hamstringed without gems and most gems tend to be in jungles).

Hmm, good point. A supposedly hammer/gold rich civ having to research up the food tech branch is a bit counterintuitive.

1 - love the changes the nomadic line gives the hippus. allows them to start strong and stay strong. 1 point i think is a bit much though is allowing horses to build pastures (when all you need/want is pastures) seems a bit excessive. the only reason to build a worker is roads.

I kinda like the multipurposeness of nomads. It's what makes them fun to play IMO. I have reduced the nomad's worked speed to the same as workers though in the game I'm currently testplaying (used to be double) - it was indeed too easy to pasture-spam. My current impression is this worker speed change seems to give a more normal progress.

2 - i think yo overpowered the khazad a bit with the changes. dont get me wrong , i like them , but upgradeable dwarven mines that are ALSO indestructible is proveing a bit harsh.

Yeah I kinda feared this would be the case. Thanks for testing them!

Reason for letting dwarven mines upgrade were:
1) I'd like the Financial leader to be able to build dwarven mines without a second thought worrying about not using their trait effectively.
2) I'd like Dwarves working hills to be fully self-reliant, without needing any other terrain to provide other eg food needs. This would be nice for the Fire phase, when hopefully the Armageddon spells will come into play more, and turn vast lands into desert (blight) or ice (Mulcarn returning). Then the dwarves could still survive despite their lack of nature druidish terraforming skills (though how about a spell that can change hills to grassland?). After all, "winter has no hold on the underground". I realize though the Dwarves would need some penalty to balance even better mines. I don't know, perhaps they could have unique terrain improvements? Eg, they can't build pastures (dwarven shepherds? yeah right), but the workshop could become a unique dwarven terrain improvement that doesn't get as productive as pastures though. Likewise perhaps the farm couldn't develop into a full town or metropolis?

umm ...

ya fireballs are fine as they are , no need to change....

i need to relook at what i do for culture .. it could be ALOT of things ... also , if i remember right culture increase with time. have to double check on it again.

mithrus has a great idea above in his edit .... lets revamp it back to dwarven mines being indestructable and let the others be pillaged down to dwarven mines. exception .... once mercantalism is research allow indestructible tag to all but metropolis

as far as nomads work speed , can we make it longer then? say 75% of worker speed or even 50% ... workers shoudl eb better then nomads at building imho.

somthing dawned on me today... why do pastures give 1 hammer and 1 gold? the gold makes sense to me , but the hammer i cant figure out. personally i think 2 resources is the perfect number for the improvement but shouldnt it be 1 food and 1 gold? you are raiseing animals after all.

side note ... the pillageing numbers are off.

You mean too high?

Vanilla pillaging rewards are:
cottage: 10g
hamlet: 15g (takes 10 turns to grow into)
village: 20g (20 turns)
town: 25g (40 turns)

RoM currently:
farm: 15g
village: 30g (30 turns)
town: 60g (60 turns)
metropolis: 120g (120 turns)

The pillage reward for village is lower than in vanilla, while it takes as long to grow into. I guess those are fine. For the rest, perhaps this?

farm: 10g
village: 30g (30 turns)
town: 45g (60 turns)
metropolis: 60g (120 turns)

Getting over a hundred gold for pillaging any sort of terrain improvement seems like too much. Given the greater amount of time that must be invested into each improvement, I suppose it makes sense that the urban line would give more gold than in "vanilla" FfH. Those revisions sound fine to me.

i swear in actually practice pillaging a metropolis only gave me like 6g ... but i might be wrong

Any other opinions about defense modifiers?

somthing dawned on me today... why do pastures give 1 hammer and 1 gold? the gold makes sense to me , but the hammer i cant figure out. personally i think 2 resources is the perfect number for the improvement but shouldnt it be 1 food and 1 gold? you are raiseing animals after all.

Hammers and Commerce/Gold/Arrows/Whatever it's called in Civ4 are really too broad and vague concepts to attach any meaning to them. They could mean material resources, human physical labour for hammers, and gold, commerce or human mental labour (research) for Commerce. Regarding food, an extensive animal husbandry lifestyle can support much less people than an agricultural one. Eg compare China to Mongolia. Horse nomads are usually good raiders, so hammers for military production makes sense I guess. Besides, farms provide food, so the other big terrain improvement needs to provide something else. :D

i swear in actually practice pillaging a metropolis only gave me like 6g ... but i might be wrong


That's no doubt for the same reason you can lose with 99% odds. :D

About the Malakim, the Doviello, and Dreiche's maps; the Malakim almost always start near floodplains, which seems to be a fine tradeoff for having to put up with some extra deserts. Removing the floodplain unhealthiness for them might be a suitably moderate change, but I honestly think they're powerful enough without that, Dreiche maps or no. The Doviello are somewhat different. There's really no advantage to starting in the tundra, even for them (combat bonuses aside). I'd suggest giving them an extra hammer on tundras, and maybe letting them build some extra improvements on them, but I'm also aware that they aren't meant to be a powerful peacetime Civ, so it's not a big issue.

Yeah, how would one go about doing that? I'm working on a Malakim completion mod and I looked at how the Lanun do things. For them, making seas more profitable seems an easy fix because of the code left over from the Colossus in vanilla. But it targets domains, not actual terrain types, so it's pretty much worthless for the Malakim.

The only way I can see to make deserts and tundra more useful is either by giving the Malakim and Doviello a unique tech (a la Seafaring), messing around with improvements, or (at the last resort) modifying the SDK. Is there an easier way that I haven't seen?

Heh, don't ask me. I'm pretty much illiterate when it comes to programming. Attaching the bonuses to improvements seems like it might be an alright idea, though. Would it be easier to make Doviello farms give an extra hammer on tundras than it would be to just give their tundras an extra hammer?

ok , i can see the military production thing i guess .... but isnt that concept covered by warfare? mil units produced with food?

maybe if pastures are 1 food + 1 gold , then if (wow,blank,namadism?) allowed you to build troops with food it would even out? you would still see a decent 1,1,2 bonus on undeveloped lands with the end horse techs (as opposed to a 0,2,2)

as far as malakim and dovelio , i was thinking of simple answers that are already psuedo coded. add to the palaces the ability to give +1 food on tundra or desert (not broken imho , just eliminates the inate terrain penalty.

as far as lanun , i was completely happy with lanun specific buildings that add raw gold/hammer/beakers just like sages guild or at the extreme end add +1 gold a few times to all water tiles or all of a cities water tiles. both of these mechanics are already in the game and jsut need buildings created to implement.

examples ....
fisheries , requires harbor , +2 food +10% gold
university? , requires library , +2 beakers +10% science

waht i dont recommend is giving the lanun more food , waht they need is hammers and commerce of sorts. i do however reccomend things that can be implemented in small steps.

I'd like to see Lanun-specific buildings that grant bonuses based on resources (sort of like the Kuriotates have now). Oceanic cultures have always been predisposed to trade, and where there's trade, there's also piracy.

If the Lanun had trouble getting bonuses from the land, but made up for it with resources, it would encourage them to trade a lot more, and we could even tie this in with the pirate theme. Maybe Pirates could even be given the ability to interrupt trade routes between enemy cities and redirect it to theirs. Sort of the naval equivalent of pillaging. It would make building distant ocean colonies more risky, and encourage other civs to keep a standing navy to keep the pirate scum off their backs.

I'd like to see Lanun-specific buildings that grant bonuses based on resources (sort of like the Kuriotates have now). Oceanic cultures have always been predisposed to trade, and where there's trade, there's also piracy.

If the Lanun had trouble getting bonuses from the land, but made up for it with resources, it would encourage them to trade a lot more, and we could even tie this in with the pirate theme. Maybe Pirates could even be given the ability to interrupt trade routes between enemy cities and redirect it to theirs. Sort of the naval equivalent of pillaging. It would make building distant ocean colonies more risky, and encourage other civs to keep a standing navy to keep the pirate scum off their backs.
Interesting, perhaps have the Lanun a sea-based gypsy wagon effect. Essentially, if the Lanun can have pirate ships in a rival territory, it can steal up to 1 commerce per trade route up to the max trade routes for that coastal city?

I was thinking something a little more drastic, like actually siphoning off a certain resource.
Pirates are a little harder to build and use than Gypsy Wagons, so the effect has to match the increased cost.

I finally took some time to try your mod-mod and it's an absolute blast! Pushing mobility and hunters a bit further out in the tech tree really resolved some early game must-haves and the changes made to the mounted line in general combined with ZoC works out favourably. I am actually building and enjoying horsemen. The changes made to the civics are pretty reasonable as well, making you actually have to balance the current needs of your empire a lot more than in regular FFH and trying to make a couple of seldom used civics attractive (Mercantilism, I'm looking at you).

The only immediate concern I have (after one game, mind you) is that with commerce now being more tied to resources than farmages (farm+cottage = farmage), you make the Financial trait even stronger, relatively speaking. It was already one of the definitively most useful traits, both in Vanilla and FFH, but now I figure you get a commerce boost of at least 30%-35% early to mid-game. As I quite like the farmage concept, I'm not sure what should be done (if anything) but Financial seems a bit too hot atm.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I enjoy the heck out of your changes :goodjob:

as far as nomads work speed , can we make it longer then? say 75% of worker speed or even 50% ... workers shoudl eb better then nomads at building imho.

Do you think nomadic pasture building makes nomadism too powerful?
If not, I'll just call it "working as designed". :mischief: I don't see why workers should per se keep their use under all possible playstyles.

ok , i can see the military production thing i guess .... but isnt that concept covered by warfare? mil units produced with food?

maybe if pastures are 1 food + 1 gold , then if (wow,blank,namadism?) allowed you to build troops with food it would even out? you would still see a decent 1,1,2 bonus on undeveloped lands with the end horse techs (as opposed to a 0,2,2)

But what does this add compared to the current situation? :confused: Problem with giving pastures hammers is that you can also produce buildings well, but problem with giving food is that you could also create large cities and specialists under an extensive animal husbandry style, which is the opposite of what I want.

The changes made to the civics are pretty reasonable as well, making you actually have to balance the current needs of your empire a lot more than in regular FFH and trying to make a couple of seldom used civics attractive (Mercantilism, I'm looking at you).

Thanks for your comments!

Just wondering, are there any civics you still consider underpowered?

The only immediate concern I have (after one game, mind you) is that with commerce now being more tied to resources than farmages (farm+cottage = farmage), you make the Financial trait even stronger, relatively speaking.

daladinn also said this IIRC. By commerce being tied more to resources, do you mean eg that farms on wheat eventually also provide gold?

Btw, now that horses are used some more, do you guys use pikemen more? If not, I was thinking of perhaps lowering their cost to 105 hammer or so.

hello again....

sorry if i seem to be such a critic , its jsut that i think you have a great thing going and just want to see it improved instead of dropped...

what we are saying aobut being centered around resources is that given the time that it takes to develope towns you see a MUCH greater jump via either mines (gold or gems) or plantations (almost anything). many of these tiles start provideing 5+ gold and are improved by an additional 2 gold later. while cottages require freshwater AND max at 3 gold (IIRC, might be 4).this makes starting near a gold source almost needed. however , i am not really sure on the balanceing aspect of this and see these now as military targets that must be held and protected. you have to protect towns also but the reasons are different (time to build and funding the guy hitting you)

try this out ..... pastures with 1 food and 1 gold
namadism with can use food to make units and +2 unhealthy , remove the 10% food penalty. lets do some math to see what we shoudl have.....

base health being 4 or 5 which is what we want to see as a city cap for a nomadistic city. we are looking at 1 health from cow,pig,sheep as a default and increases to 2 easily. hmmm.... thinking while typeing .... i wish there was a way to remove the health bonuses from these as well as from teh building.bah this s not going to work out right....

when i was playing hippus i was able to expand quickly to the point of bankruptcy. and found the 2 biggest problems i was facing was coina nd research. this forced me to get festivals and start the economy/research sides of the tree. i also found the need for metals to be fairly important. i guess with the hippus and nomadism they are still tied into the need to diversify or perish.

i have thought of one thing.... we should push nomadism back to horseback riding.

man , i am soo drawing blanks on a better fix ... i do really think that the namad horses build pastures way to fast though.

doh , thoughts ..... how about removing the hammer from pastures ..

then have namadism add 100% production bonus for building troops

or

have nomadism add +1 hammer to pastures when building troops

not sure how or which would be better or more easily programmed

As Daladinn said: Commerce tied to resources means that your main source of commerce would be luxuries like incense, gems and gold. The reason for this is that farmages grow slowly and caps at 3 (?) commerce, 4(?) with river. I also think pastures cap at 3/4 with the right techs.

Let's do some math (ugh):
Lennys empire derives 80% of his commerce from farmages and pastures (non-resource tied improvements). He is Financial. For each plot that provides 2 commerce (instantly for pastures by rivers, 30 turns for farms by rivers) the relative gain from Financial is 50%. For each plot that provides 3 commerce the gain is 33% and 4 commerce nets him a 25% advantage. After 90 turns the gain from farmages is guaranteed. Assuming that 50% of his worked farmages(now villages) and all his pastures (40% of total pastures+farmages) are by the river (for max gain), this nets him the following bonus commerce:

80% * ((40% + 30%)50% + (30%)33%) = 35,92%

This advantage diminishes as farmages grows and bonus commerce for pastures are achieved but still it's a fair bit over Vanillas and FFHs bonus for Financial (roughly 20% and 25% IIRC). The bottom line is that if you cap cottages at low levels of commerce, it will favor Financial as long as it's possible to get at least 2 commerce from a plot. Bored yet? I sure am :p

To your question of unused civics: The main civic to be improved here should be Military Discipline. I've never even considered trading 2xp from start or 10% science for those lousy production and War Weariness boni. I suggest adding a +1 xp for every battle effect that is NOT cumulative with the Valor spell, (i.e. if you operate under Military Discipline, you sort of get Valor for free). This is a quick python change in CvEventManager and I think it will help making the civic a bit more attractive. Atm I usually just stick with Apprenticeship until I can get Scholarship or Priesthood if I'm Organized and don't have too many religions in my empire.

sorry if i seem to be such a critic , its jsut that i think you have a great thing going and just want to see it improved instead of dropped...

I appreciate your comments. I just hope YOU aren't disappointed if I don't agree with something you say. I dislike 90% of the ideas I read on this forum, so don't take it personally. ;)

when i was playing hippus i was able to expand quickly to the point of bankruptcy.

That's exactly what I was hoping for. Nomadism = many "cities" of a smaller than average size.

i have thought of one thing.... we should push nomadism back to horseback riding.

That would make Agriculture the only available early game economic civic. Besides, to get the full advantage of Nomadism: the Nomadic units, you already need to research Horseback Riding or Archery+Crafting.

i do really think that the namad horses build pastures way to fast though.

Is this based on the current version 3, where nomads still work double as fast as workers? I've halved their worker speed to the normal levels in my current unreleased files.

doh , thoughts ..... how about removing the hammer from pastures ..
then have namadism add 100% production bonus for building troops

Problem with that would be nomadism would become a good civic for all civs under war, not just the pasturing ones.

have nomadism add +1 hammer to pastures when building troops

Don't think this is possible to implement.

But anyway, why do you want to change nomadism?? Do you consider it too powerful? Just for the record, there's no problem with Nomadism being really good for the Hippus. That's just a nice case of synergy as for example the Elves with Fellowship of Leaves, or the Dwarves with Runes. There would only be a balance problem if Nomadism was much better for practically ALL civs. Do you find this to be the case?

***

Ok, I didn't yet play a civ with Financial civ, so you guys have much more gameplay experience than me. But thinking theoretically, I can't immediately see why Financial would have become more powerful. In fact, when making these changes, I assumed it would weaken Financial somewhat.

As Daladinn said: Commerce tied to resources means that your main source of commerce would be luxuries like incense, gems and gold. The reason for this is that farmages grow slowly and caps at 3 (?) commerce, 4(?) with river. I also think pastures cap at 3/4 with the right techs.

But you don't have large amounts of those luxuries in your empire? Isn't that one extra early gold from luxuries not outweighed by the urban line growing slower?

Let's do some math (ugh):
Lennys empire derives 80% of his commerce from farmages and pastures (non-resource tied improvements). He is Financial. For each plot that provides 2 commerce (instantly for pastures by rivers, 30 turns for farms by rivers) the relative gain from Financial is 50%. For each plot that provides 3 commerce the gain is 33% and 4 commerce nets him a 25% advantage. After 90 turns the gain from farmages is guaranteed. Assuming that 50% of his worked farmages(now villages) and all his pastures (40% of total pastures+farmages) are by the river (for max gain), this nets him the following bonus commerce:

80% * ((40% + 30%)50% + (30%)33%) = 35,92%

This advantage diminishes as farmages grows and bonus commerce for pastures are achieved but still it's a fair bit over Vanillas and FFHs bonus for Financial (roughly 20% and 25% IIRC). The bottom line is that if you cap cottages at low levels of commerce, it will favor Financial as long as it's possible to get at least 2 commerce from a plot. Bored yet? I sure am :p

In RoM you can build a pasture or farm on every tile and get one extra commerce. In vanilla FfH you can build a cottage on every tile and get one extra commerce. What's the difference? Also keep in mind the urban line now provides food, which can be converted into commerce by specialists. So for example take a fully developed town in vanilla before they were nerfed: one hammer, four commerce. Compare that to a RoM town: two food, two commerce. But the two food can be converted to for example a priest under Scholarship. Which equals a town as one hammer and four commerce. :D Just theory of course, but I kept this example in mind when trying to balance the new urban line compared to the old cottage line. Did I overlook something?

To your question of unused civics: The main civic to be improved here should be Military Discipline. I've never even considered trading 2xp from start or 10% science for those lousy production and War Weariness boni. I suggest adding a +1 xp for every battle effect that is NOT cumulative with the Valor spell, (i.e. if you operate under Military Discipline, you sort of get Valor for free). This is a quick python change in CvEventManager and I think it will help making the civic a bit more attractive. Atm I usually just stick with Apprenticeship until I can get Scholarship or Priesthood if I'm Organized and don't have too many religions in my empire.

Ah yes, I've never used Military Discipline myself either, but I assumed this might be because I've never had a long enough war where I needed MilDisc's war weariness reducing effect, and I just didn't have enough gameplay experience.
I like your idea of free Valor. :goodjob: I'll include it in a version 4 with the latest changes which I hope to upload this evening.

Uploaded version 4 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip). It breaks save games.

Re the Dwarves, unpillageable mines is a Dwarven "special feature". If that makes them too powerful, I'd rather weaken them on some other field.

teh changelog per file:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml

1. Scout (+8 UUs) can upgrade to Chariot.
2. Nomadic units’ worker speed halved to 100.
3. Orc Worker can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation and Terrace in Jungle.
4. Dwarven Worker cannot build Farm or Pasture. Builds Dwarven Farm and Workshop instead.

CIV4PromotionInfos.xml

iAIWeight of the Nature II promotion increased to 100.

CIV4BonusInfos.xml

Gems can appear in Plains. They are enabled by Smelting.

CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml

1. Farm/Terrace, Town & Metropolis pillage costs reduced to 10, 45 & 60.
2. Dwarven Farm & Terrace added. Does not upgrade to the urban line and only provides 5 gold for pillaging.
3. Workshop revamped as a unique dwarven terrain improvement. Provides one hammer and one gold, plus one hammer with Machinery and plus one gold with Taxation. Can be built on flatland grass and plains. 10 gold for pillaging.

CIV4BuildInfos.xml

1. Build New Forest requires Priesthood.
2. Orcs can build Farm, Mines, Pasture, Plantation and Terrace in Jungle.
3. Build Workshop and Dwarven Farm/Terrace added.

CvEventManager.py

Under Military Discipline units gain one extra experience per combat. Not cumulative with Valor.

FFHSpells.py

1. Ljosalfar can bloom forest under their cities.
2. Bloom Forest is possible on terrain improvements, but destroys the improvement. AI cannot cast on resources, town and metropolis.

LOVE some of these changes...

why cant you bloom on the elven fams and such? hard to code?

note : on the pillageing of the dwarven mines.... everyone agrees on indestructable mines... waht was recomended was the ability to pillage dwarven freeholds and such. then with teh tech that allows building town (merchantalism?) make it so the next 2 steps cant be pillaged. however always allow the final dwarven building upgrade to be pillageable.

again , nice work

why cant you bloom on the elven fams and such? hard to code?

Thing is, I don't know why bloom forest was made uncastable on terrain improvements in the first place. Was it to nerf the Elves a little, as their early cottage+forest combination was considered too powerful? Or was it to prevent normally impossible combinations such as mines on forest? If it's the latter, it would be easy to make the spell only uncastable on mines. Someone just needs to tell me the reason for the change - I didn't follow those heated Elf discussions. ;)

note : on the pillageing of the dwarven mines.... everyone agrees on indestructable mines... waht was recomended was the ability to pillage dwarven freeholds and such. then with teh tech that allows building town (merchantalism?) make it so the next 2 steps cant be pillaged. however always allow the final dwarven building upgrade to be pillageable.

I don't think this is possible to implement (or only very inefficiently). Though I could simply make the Dwarven Mine pillageable? Personally I think it wouldn't make sense if above-ground-dwellers could succesfully pillage an underground maze-metropolis. But I guess pillaging a recently established dwarven mining colony makes more sense.

Oh btw, I might spend more time on C4:AC (Alpha Centauri mod for Civ4) instead of Fall from Heaven. To make work succesfully some more of the ideas I have (such as a dynamic tier4 unit limit) FfH would need a tech tree in which the endtechs give more benefits besides just military stuff, and I don't really have ideas for that at the moment. On the other hand I've got lots of ideas for Alpha Centauri. :D I seem to like modding more than actually playing the stuff I've created...

Updated to latest patch.

You can download the file here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip).

Any notes on the latest patch? or is that a new link for ver4?

Also, I found an oddity in the Withdrawl feature. It seems that it functions regardless, if you win the combat or not... I wanted to take a look at it, Where did you place that code?

Cheers!

Yeah, I'll echo Blaze: what's new in the new version?

Any notes on the latest patch? or is that a new link for ver4?

Nothing worth mentioning really.

1. Priest of Leaves gains the Animal unit AI. (another attempt to get the AI to bloom forest)
2. Nomadic Chariot reduced to strength 3, as intended. (bug fix)
3. Wyrmhold increases global happiness by 1. (to counter the non-state religion unhappiness for the Sheaim)

Besides that I simply took over the XML and python changes that Kael did in patch i. That's the reason I posted this RoM update.

Also, I found an oddity in the Withdrawl feature. It seems that it functions regardless, if you win the combat or not... I wanted to take a look at it, Where did you place that code?

IIRC, doesn't defensive withdrawal happen before combat even happens? (unfortunately, withdrawing after a certain amount of damage is reached would be almost impossible to code if I understand correctly)

Anyway, it's in CvGameInterface.py. A rather lengthy event, due to the need to include every unit with offensive withdrawal...

def cannotAttack(argsList):
pAttacker = argsList[0]
pDefender = argsList[1]
pPlot = pDefender.plot()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pDefender.getOwner())

iRoot = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_ROOT')
iFlanking1 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING1')
iFlanking2 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING2')
iFlanking3 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING3')
iMarksman = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_MARKSMAN')
iSiege = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE')
iFire = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_FIRE')

iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Maniac")
if pDefender.isHasPromotion(iRoot):
iRnd = iRnd - 160
if pDefender.getUnitCombatType() == iSiege:
iRnd = iRnd - 160
if pAttacker.getUnitCombatType() == iFire:
iRnd = iRnd - 160
if pAttacker.isHasPromotion(iMarksman):
iRnd = iRnd - 160
if pDefender.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pDefender.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pDefender.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pAttacker.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pAttacker.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_PIRATE'):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_PIRATE'):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_CAMEL_ARCHER'):
iRnd = iRnd - 45
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_CAMEL_ARCHER'):
iRnd = iRnd + 45
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_CHARIOT'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_CHARIOT'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER'):
iRnd = iRnd - 35
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER'):
iRnd = iRnd + 35
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_WAR_CHARIOT'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_WAR_CHARIOT'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_BLACK_WIND'):
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_BLACK_WIND'):
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_KITHRA'):
iRnd = iRnd - 35
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_KITHRA'):
iRnd = iRnd + 35
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_MAGNADINE'):
iRnd = iRnd - 50
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_MAGNADINE'):
iRnd = iRnd + 50
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_ROSIER'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_ROSIER'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_SAILORS_DIRGE') :
iRnd = iRnd - 20
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_SAILORS_DIRGE') :
iRnd = iRnd + 20
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_TYPHOID_MARY'):
iRnd = iRnd - 50
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_TYPHOID_MARY'):
iRnd = iRnd + 50
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_VALIN'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_VALIN'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_WAR_MACHINE'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitClassType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCLASS_WAR_MACHINE'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_CAMEL_ARCHER_HIPPUS' ):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_CAMEL_ARCHER_HIPPUS' ):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_BRIGAND'):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_BRIGAND'):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_RAIDER'):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_RAIDER'):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WIND_KNIGHT'):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WIND_KNIGHT'):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WAR_ELEPHANT_HIPPUS' ):
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WAR_ELEPHANT_HIPPUS' ):
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WAR_CHARIOT_HIPPUS') :
iRnd = iRnd - 10
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_WAR_CHARIOT_HIPPUS') :
iRnd = iRnd + 10
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ACROBAT'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ACROBAT'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if pAttacker.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_HARLEQUIN'):
iRnd = iRnd - 25
if pDefender.getUnitType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_HARLEQUIN'):
iRnd = iRnd + 25
if (iRnd >= 101 and pPlot.isCity() == False and pPlot.getImprovementType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_FORT')):
p2Plot = cf.FFHFindClearPlot(pDefender, -1)
if p2Plot != -1:
pDefender.setXY(p2Plot.getX(), p2Plot.getY())
CyInterface().addMessage(pAttacker.getOwner(),True ,25,'Our enemies flee like cowards!','AS2D_RUN_AWAY',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pAttacker.getX(),pAttacker .getY(),True,True)
CyInterface().addMessage(pDefender.getOwner(),True ,25,'Tactical retreat succesful.','AS2D_RUN_AWAY',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pDefender.getX(),pDefender .getY(),True,True)
return True

return False

3. Wyrmhold increases global happiness by 1. (to counter the non-state religion unhappiness for the Sheaim)

Just something I thought would be useful to point out, there are two civics that cause non-state religion unhappiness in two different categories (Theocracy and Religious Discipline :hmm: actually maybe you shouldn't worry too much about what happens when those two are adopted together). That is by default of course meaning you could change Wyrmhold some more or change the civics themselves.

I'll probably address that later. However my solution would break savegames, so I want to finish my Sheaim game first. :mischief:

I'm throwing together some code for a Hidden trait: all units in your territory are invisible, but they become visible for a turn after attacking.

Here's the python for in EventManager already:

def onUnitMove(self, argsList):
'unit move'
pPlot,pUnit = argsList
player = PyPlayer(pUnit.getOwner())
unitInfo = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pUnit.getUnitType())
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pUnit.getOwner())

pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)
if pPlot.isOwned():
if (pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN')) and pPlot.getOwner() == pUnit.getOwner()):
bValid = True
if pPlayer.isHuman() == False:
if (pPlot.getImprovementType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_FORT') or pPlot.isCity()):
bValid = False
if bValid == True:
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_INVISIBLE2'), True)

***

def onCombatResult(self, argsList):
'Combat Result'
pWinner,pLoser = argsList
playerX = PyPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
unitX = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pWinner.getUnitType())
playerY = PyPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
unitY = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pLoser.getUnitType())
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())

if pWinner.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PR OMOTION_INVISIBLE2')):
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_INVISIBLE2'), False)
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_HIDDEN'), False)
pWinner.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_REVEALED'), True)

***

def onBeginPlayerTurn(self, argsList):
'Called at the beginning of a players turn'
iGameTurn, iPlayer = argsList
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
py = PyPlayer(iPlayer)

for pUnit in py.getUnitList():

if pUnit.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROM OTION_REVEALED')):
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_HIDDEN'), True)
pUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PRO MOTION_REVEALED'), False)

***

def onUnitCreated(self, argsList):
'Unit Completed'
unit = argsList[0]
player = PyPlayer(unit.getOwner())
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(unit.getOwner())
unitInfo = PyInfo.UnitInfo(unit.getUnitType())

if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_HI DDEN')):
unit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROM OTION_HIDDEN'), True)


I'll also make spells so the human player can turn invisibility on and off. Reason: invisible units can't defend - they run away...

Both features sound like useful functions. I hope they get included into the mainstream mod, myself.

Hey Maniac.. interesting idea... I like it.

I noticed something odd though. In your CvEventManager code, you used a Promotion_Revealed and in the Spells code, it looks liek you use Promotion_Visible for the same outcome.

Did you have any specific Idea what you where looking for For those Invisible2 and Revealed(I like that better than simply Visible for this function myself)? Was going to throw something together so I could test this out...

Cheers!

INVISIBLE2 would just be a copy of INVISIBLE and VISIBLE and REVEALED would just be 'dummy' promotions to make the events work, and give the player info on the state of his unit. Just using INVISIBLE would create problems with the Forest Stealth code, and if I used the same promotion for REVEALED and VISIBLE, units that the human player set to visible on purpose would automatically become invisible again each turn.
REVEALED is for units to become visible after an attack.
VISIBLE would be when human players consciously want to lose invisibility.

Anyway, I'll also have to make casters lose invisibility after certain offensive spells. This will be a lot more work...

Hey i don't know if this has been addressed but could you please balance out my righteous cause spell? Back then i didn't know how kick-ass t3 spells should be.

bascially it should give 1 crusader for each rioting/unhappy citizen in target city (adjacent). Caster doesn't die.

Thanks, I want people to be able to use this spell before an official phase is release.

Ok, done for next version. :)

I just had someone cast tsunami on my capital and turn it into ocean. Is this a bug in RoM or in FFH main?

It isn´t a bug in neither of them. Tsunami spell has 10% chance of converting any land square to a ocean square.

ANY including a city? And you don't see how this is breaking the game? You can't have a single spell decide an entire game! I'd really like to hear from someone from the FFH team that this is the intended behaviour.

Well, unless you have 10 archmages with water 3, there's no sure-fire way for it to work in 1 turn (i.e. long enough to evacuate the city and/or launch a counter-attack). And remember that Tsunami destroys the city, whereas with other spells, like Meteor Swarm (another game-breaker, I'll admit, but it's there) the city is still free to capture after it's garrison is wiped out.

I'm of the opinion that if any unit saves against tsunami in a tile, then it shouldn't destroy the tile, but that's just me.

Well, unless you have 10 archmages with water 3, there's no sure-fire way for it to work in 1 turn (i.e. long enough to evacuate the city and/or launch a counter-attack). And remember that Tsunami destroys the city, whereas with other spells, like Meteor Swarm (another game-breaker, I'll admit, but it's there) the city is still free to capture after it's garrison is wiped out.

Was anything done to nerf meteors?

MrUnderhill: no sure fire way, certainly, but a ONE IN TEN CHANCE to wipe out the enemy's capital? It was a protracted siege, and I was going for a tower of mastery victory. I had easily more than enough units in the capital to hold it for the three rounds I would have needed to finish the tower of mastery. There is no other level 3 spell which is anywhere near as devastating. He could have shot twenty meteorstorms into my capital and I would have shrugged it off.

I'm just saying, I don't think tsunami should work on a coast tile if there's a city on it. Destroy buildings in the city, sure, maybe even kill population, okay, but not just wipe the city out completely. That's beyond unbalanced; that's game breaking.

MrUnderhill: no sure fire way, certainly, but a ONE IN TEN CHANCE to wipe out the enemy's capital? It was a protracted siege, and I was going for a tower of mastery victory. I had easily more than enough units in the capital to hold it for the three rounds I would have needed to finish the tower of mastery. There is no other level 3 spell which is anywhere near as devastating. He could have shot twenty meteorstorms into my capital and I would have shrugged it off.


Weird, I thought AI cant use ranged spells such as tsunami.
And had he cast tsunami, it would be realistic that all production on tower of mastery should be lost anyway, so you couldn't win.
But I agree, cities larger than 10 should only population drop/ get destroyed buildings. Those of less than 10 should be destructible.

All of this stuff about tsunami being too powerful had been dealt with by Sureshot's Svartalfar mod so maybe you guys should give that a try. Instead of instantly flattening a city next to water, it destroys population until a certain point and then destroys the city.

Well, that's a perfect solution and needs to be put into ffh core pronto!

ya, would be nice to have them made significantly better, theres been a few discussions about it previously.

withdrawl rates could use a boost too... generally id like to see more new promotions available that are viable alternatives to combat.

This was being discussed in another thread.
I'd recommend giving drill simply more first strikes, and flanking gives withdrawal and a combat bonus.

I definitely would want Drill and Flanking to be viable alternatives to Combat.
I've already changed Drill I to one extra strike instead of extra strike chance. Flanking also gives defensive withdrawal chance.
Can anyone tell their experiences with the current changes? No one has said anything yet about that I think.

Hmm I wonder would this be a good pic for the Svartalfar prophet? Could anyone make a button out of it or explain me how to do it?

http://home.neo.rr.com/issig/GreyElf_Shaman.jpg

ah, forgot i didnt do a button for him, ill use that crop it and all that after i finish my current game

Aye heve qvestion!

Why were knights removed from national unit status?

If knights are required to be that way for game balance reasons, could an intermediary Sergeant at Arms be included to occupy the place knights currently occupy in the mod, with knights taking a new, slightly higher one?

I realize that this is one hell of a nitpick, but I've always hated seeing stacks and stacks of knights. It makes as much sense as snorting dirt.

ah, forgot i didnt do a button for him, ill use that crop it and all that after i finish my current game

Thanks! :goodjob:

Why were knights removed from national unit status?

To act as the tier 3/3.5 unit in the melee cavalry line. Anyway, I agree knights shouldn't be as common as other unit types. But - of course just a personal preference - I'd like to see them more often than as a tier 4 unit on a neglected tech branch. I've made them cost 180 especially so they wouldn't be as common. Do you see the AI using stacks of knights despite that?

***

Version 5 of Rise of Mania is ready by the way.

Usual download link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip)

1. Warfare now requires Education and (Bronze Working OR Archery OR Horseback Riding).
2. Optics now requires Sailing and Calendar.
3. Medicine now requires Education and (Sanitation OR Herbal Lore).
4. Poisons renamed to Herbal Lore. Also requires Education.
5. Herbalist requires Herbal Lore instead of Agriculture.
6. Grigori Medic now requires Herbal Lore and Herbalist.
7. The Grigori can run Public Healers.
8. Priest of Leaves gains the Animal unit AI.
9. Righteous Cause no longer kills the caster, and can be cast by the AI.
10. The units of civilizations with the Hidden trait are now invisible in their own territory. They become visible for a turn after attacking or casting an offensive spell. Invisibility can also be toggled on and off.
11. The Sheaim and Kuriotates no longer suffer unhappiness from having the Cult of the Dragon in their cities.
12. Svartalfar: unique units/graphics added for Adept, Mage, Archmage, Conjurer, Summoner, Worker, Settler, Lich, Prophet, Warrior, Maceman, Berserker, Immortal, Scout, Hunter, Ranger, Beastmaster, Assassin, Shadow, Longbowman, Flurry, Marksman, Horse Archer & Knight. Assassin starts with Forest Stealth.

WOOT!! looks awsome! thank you!!! :D

I think there is a problem with the Svartalfar settler causing game crashes. I just got my internet hooked up today so I came to see if a fix was posted, but I sort of fixed it myself last night. Svartalfar settler was setup to use 1 male, 1 female and 2 kids but only the child graphics were assigned, I didn't do it right but at least I avoided a crash for games with the Svartalfar appearing in them.

Neat changes btw, thanks for your efforts!

Huh could you explain a bit more in detail what the problem is and how to solve it?

Well I'm not all that versed in modding, so I'm not sure I can explain it properly. But after unziping your new patch everything would load up fine, and after setting up a custom game for huge, 18 civs, etc. The initializing map screen would pop and then exit the game while it was doing the graphics loading bit.

It took me a while to figure out what was going on, but reading through your changelog I figured looking at the Svartalfar changes would be a good place to start, so I compared the units to the Ljosfar units one by one to see if anything was out of the oridinary and found the Svartalfar settler unit wasn't setup the same way as the regular elven unit, it was requiring 4 graphics (presumably for multi unit display) but only had the *_SETTLER_DE_CHILD (maybe was *_SETTLER_CHILD_DE don't remeber exact variable name) defined, so I copied the regular elven unit info and pasted it in then modifed the graphics they were pointing to go to the appropriate pictures and that stopped the loading crash. I'm really not sure what all I did to make it work as I'm not that familiar with the files or the contents of FFH2, but there was definately something wrong with that unit, I managed a work around for now though so I can enjoy the game at least :)

EDIT: Damn c key is too close to the v key. Typed Scartalvar 7 times today already!

Woops thanks.

I think this should fix it.

Will also reupload the whole zip...

Thanks! Jeeze took me all last night to figure it out half way and you got it fixed and released in like 15 minutes! Thanks, I'm loving what you've done with ZoC among other little things that really make the civs feel even more unique.

Quick question here-

I'm not too familiar with all this modding stuff...

Where do I put the files to try this mod out? Do I just copy over the FfH assets folder? And just in case I want to reverse it do I just make a copy of the original folder first to put back?

Cvlowe: you got it. You should make a backup of the FFH folder. I THINK just backing up the assets folder should be enough, but I'm not sure. I backed up the whole thing. It's only 200 something MB ;) The most comfortable way of switching between what mod you load is, at least for me, to edit your ini file (in my documents my games etc).

I backed up the whole thing. It's only 200 something MB ;)

Instead of backing it all up, why not keep two seperate FfH folders? ;)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/TehManiac/RoMfolder.jpg

Anyway, if you want to keep only one install and want to revert to the original, simply reinstalling the latest patch i over it should also work.

OK Thanks! Got it!

Have to try the separate folders thing sometime...

Game in progress now. Playing the Khazad. I am at turn 324 and seeing barbarian archers and chariots (never saw them that fast before)- my swordsmen are struggling but holding the line- I guess I neglected the military techs too long. Also- workers are SO much slower, but that is intended, right? It took me a while to figure out the whole pasture/terrace thing but I've got it now :)

All in all, so far pretty fun. Managed to beat down Acheron with Bambur & take his city- now gotta build up my gold to the overflowing point again! Hope my poor veteran swordsmen can hold the line untill I can get some stronger units out!

Also- workers are SO much slower, but that is intended, right?

Yup. My experience with workers in Civ4 is that all your lands quickly become fully improved, and that after that your workers just sit around doing nothing. So most terrain improvements take a bit longer longer to build. That way the situation of worker scarcity to do the things you'd like to remains longer (and strategy is exactly about making choices in a situation of scarcity). Of course making improvements take longer to build is just a delaying of the point of when all your lands become fully improved. That's why I've added the ability to build towns directly at a very high worker cost. I assume one will never run out of stuff to build that way.

There are also a couple more specific reasons for the changed building time though:

Roads: I'd like to avoid road spam on every tile. With roads taking four turns to build, for me at least it's a conscious decision where I'm going to build them, and no automatism. Also due to the Commando promotion being available earlier and easier, building roads on every tile would be stupid anyway from a defensive viewpoint.

Farms: take longer to build, but that's part of the farm<->pasture dichotomy. Farms become more productive, but they require a higher investment. If you still want some terrain improvement quickly, pasture is the way to go.

Yup. My experience with workers in Civ4 is that all your lands quickly become fully improved, and that after that your workers just sit around doing nothing. So most terrain improvements take a bit longer longer to build. That way the situation of worker scarcity to do the things you'd like to remains longer (and strategy is exactly about making choices in a situation of scarcity). Of course making improvements take longer to build is just a delaying of the point of when all your lands become fully improved. That's why I've added the ability to build towns directly at a very high worker cost. I assume one will never run out of stuff to build that way.
I agree with this 100%, in fact the current worker situation in FfH 2 Vanilla makes me long for the early days, when workers (apprentices) upgraded to Adepts.

OK then call me obstinate because instead of ~one worker per city in my current game I have almost 2! :eek:

I still road the fat cross part and connect my cities at a minimum. The gameplay change I did have to make was to start leaving my garrison troops spread around the perimiter of my cities instead of holed up in the city itself. That combined with a blodded werewolf paired to each and every worker to prevent the chariot sneak attack on my workers is really working to allow me to build up my cities fairly quickly still. Problem is now- I end up with twice as many useless workers sitting around- the opposite of the effect you seem to have wanted. But then again it's probably just my playstyle and I would most likely get wiped out by a human opponent...

Problem is now- I end up with twice as many useless workers sitting around- the opposite of the effect you seem to have wanted.

Despite having Mercantilism?

Despite having Mercantilism?

I am using agriculture for the extra food- to grow my cities, and Arete to hurry production when necessary. No- my point was that I now average 2 workers per city to get it developed in a decent amount of time instead of the 1 per city average I used to use. Building workers in an established city and marching them to new ones is easy enough I don't lose any time making the workers themselves. so now when I don't have any cities to work on- I have twice as many workers sitting around until my next growth phase or delete them and remake them later.

I am actively guarding my workers for the first time this game- Pairing each and every one up with either a dwarven hammerfist or blooded werewolf. Its not a big deal to lose one, but definitely an annoyance. That may be because I bumped the difficulty up a notch and ended up with more barbs than I am used to than a change in the game itself.

One other thing I discovered I was unaware of- probably a base Civ thing. Building improvements on resources in your culture zone gives you access to that resource- it does not have to be in your fat cross!! Yaay that gives me some definite freedom and more options in city placement! Found that by putting a pasture on a horse and discovering I had the horse resource before I got my settler in position. I love discovering new tricks like this :)

I am actively guarding my workers for the first time this game- Pairing each and every one up with either a dwarven hammerfist or blooded werewolf. Its not a big deal to lose one, but definitely an annoyance.

The Core of Subtle is a great wonder that makes all your workers invisible while in your cultural borders so they don't need to be guarded, they'll still act like they aren't invisible and stop doing what they are doing when enemies come near but it gives you alot of freedom with your worker forces and your defense forces as you don't have to actively defend workers, if an enemy gets on a tile with a hidden worker the worker will be bounced out of that tile but that's not a big deal compared to losing them. Wonder comes at Masonry however so it's an early wonder which may not be the best option, as the benefits it offers can be remedied by using worker defenders.

Have you considered making it so that units garrisoned in cities require food upkeep? And then during sieges the attacker could simply starve out the defenders?

That would be fun, but it would just starve the population faster, not the defenders. (until the city was size 1, I guess.)
If that was fixed (so it was semi-random whether the city lost one pop point or the weakest defender when starved) it'd be interesting, so long as the first 2 or 3 (adjust for difficulty?) were free.

I am using agriculture for the extra food

Meant the Mercantilism tech which allows the ability to build towns directly.

Have you considered making it so that units garrisoned in cities require food upkeep? And then during sieges the attacker could simply starve out the defenders?

Heh, military units using food would be really great IMO. It would also create a nice strategic choice between using a professional army or draftees (which would both require food upkeep) or mercenaries (which would require gold upkeep). And recon units could not require any upkeep at all, but be more costly to build etc. Though unfortunately I see lots of practical problems with this that would need to be resolved.

1) The AI likes to keep large stacks inside their cities. They would starve themselves to death.
2) For the human player this would create a situation where he'd try to station as much troops as possible outside his cities. So to avoid strange situations, when doing such a thing, I think all units should require food upkeep, and perhaps each unit on a tile should reduce its food production by -1 (and if the tile already produces no food, one of the surrounding tiles gets -1 food).
3) Food production in general should be increased to compensate the increased need for food, and the AI should be taught not to build endless armies they can't support.

Anyway, love the idea, but beyond my ability to implement.

First off, Great mod. ive been playing RTW and MTW2 for last few months and the first mod i came back too in civ was naturally FFH :)

In regards to workers, im wondering if its possible to have workers as national units to prevent over production of terrain. This idea in not entirely unrealistic as most nations could not field an army of workers. Population and economy are two key factors. Africa has really high population and many able bodied workers, but w/o money they cannot do anything. The same is true in reverse.

In Civ terms rather than giving a set amount of workers for all civs, we can tie it to civics and/or number of cities. For civics you could tie it to the government. For instance have God King allowed 15 workers and city states 10 or so. my main issue with this would be when changing governments. If you are under God King and have 15 workers then switch to City States, would it reset and kill all 15 or just randomly kill 5.

A few other simpler ideas would be to have workers required upkeep of 1 gold.
Maybe have the beginning workers create basic improvements and a later worker model (worth much more in production) allow the full range of improvements.

Another idea i have is with the nomad concept. I love this idea as it really brings a different feel to the early game if you persue it, especially for Hippus.
The first idea is putting a nomadic warrior for Hippus. They start with nomadism but must wait for awhile to get nomadic units. if nomadic warrior is too strong in early game, then how about a nomadic scout. (If Hippus use horses, why don't their scouts use them :confused: ) IMO the first nomadic unit should be a self-protecting settler.

Second idea is a change to the civic. Nomadism should lower the number of cities penalty or the distance penalty (I can make a case for both). With this increase the food penalty to 20% (ouch! but nomadic people dont field large populations per city) and increase the upkeep of government civics (Its hard to be worshiped as a God, or hold elections if your constantly moving around)

Meant the Mercantilism tech which allows the ability to build towns directly.

Ahh haven't tried that one yet. I did capture some non-dwarven workers and am building some of the growing versions of farms around my capital. Somehow that seems wrong though.

A few other simpler ideas would be to have workers required upkeep of 1 gold.

They DO require upkeep. Thats why I delete them if I won't be needing them anytime soon, then make new ones when I want to get back to building phase.

First off, Great mod.

Glad you like it. :)

Re workers, how would that prevent the issue of workers idling after a while?

What would nomadic warriors or scout be able to do more than normal warriors and scouts?

Re a -20% food penalty, I'm kinda worried that might make it too hard to even reach size 3, the minimum size required to "draft" a nomadic unit.
I've thought too about reducing city costs with Nomadism, but than again, wouldn't that just be duplicate of City States? Of course the City States name doesn't really fit with Nomadism, but for this specific situation you could think of the civic as "Independent Clans" or something.

Ahh haven't tried that one yet. I did capture some non-dwarven workers and am building some of the growing versions of farms around my capital. Somehow that seems wrong though.

You mean building improvements you normally can't build? Just had an idea! I guess simply making all the worker into one unitclass should prevent obtaining other races' workers. For now I'd say to just self-police. :D
Edit: Oh wait, all workers already are one unitclass. :hmm:

They DO require upkeep. Thats why I delete them if I won't be needing them anytime soon, then make new ones when I want to get back to building phase.

:eek: If you consider 1 hammer = 2 gold, it's cheaper to keep worker around idling for 149 turns than to build new ones after a while.

And behold, the AI went forth, and bloomed some new forests. :eek:

Looks like they were lucky to end their turn with a priest of leaves that has the ability to bloom forests on a tile that could be bloomed. That's just my interpretation, of course.

You mean building improvements you normally can't build? Just had an idea! I guess simply making all the worker into one unitclass should prevent obtaining other races' workers. For now I'd say to just self-police. :D
Edit: Oh wait, all workers already are one unitclass. :hmm:

I've been thinking about this...
I can see where it might seem a little off balance gamewise. But the improvements do take a long time to upgrade themselves, and the benefit is not that huge. It just might gove a bit of extra production to speed up the endgame. but I don't think it would be enough to save you if you are losing.

Then if you think about it historically, all the greatest real world civilizations (persians and romans in particular) would take knowledge and techniques from conquered people and incorporate it into their own civilization, so from that perspective there is nothing wrong.

nice work on the mod

ZOC, the civic changes and the strengthened mounted units i like a lot (the auto promote for metal resources is great). the tech tree i havent played with often enough to say too much about it yet

regarding the new improvements, i like the concept but I dont really see how this trade off works in practice between the nomadic and sedentary lifestyles. mostly this is because i think the tradeoff is a civ choice not an improvement choice - if u pick for example the clan then pastures are nice, but if u pick khazad they just arent.

I also found in my game (as elohim) that pastures just werent strong enough to be worth building after i had both agriculture and mining. perhaps if i had invested in the cavalry tech line this would have been different, but in my game which focused more on religious/metal/magic techs, i felt that a tradeoff of farms vs cottages had been replaced with an evolution from early pastures to farms and mines, and very little tradeoff at all. i currently have every city spammed with mines/farms and nothing else apart from resources.

i also cant seem to build terraces.. not sure what im doing wrong there. i have construction but never got the option. if i did id maybe have less mines :)

the other thing i did was picked nomadism asap and got horseback riding, drafted "mounted settlers" which enabled me to expand a lot faster than usual, then just ditched nomadism again when i couldnt afford to expand any further. im not sure if this is really the spirit of nomadism or imperialism :)

i also cant seem to build terraces.. not sure what im doing wrong there. i have construction but never got the option. if i did id maybe have less mines :)

It took me a while to figure that out too. You have to have a hill next to a water source (lake/oasis/irrigated farm) to build a terrace.

I just ended my first game with this mod! (well quit because it is inevitable I win but will take a LONG time to finish on the HUGE map...)

Played Khazaad so I didn't get to try out the horses much.

Overall, a very excellent mod-mod :goodjob:

Tech tree could use some cleaning up- but thats a minor issue.

I saw Blood of the Phoenix got nerfed!!! After I built it of course... Could be a cheaper build to reflect the much weaker ability, plus maybe an earlier tech- the new effect is weak for a late game wonder.

I think overall the slower workers are a good idea- it forced me to be more proactive in my defense to be able to prevent razing. I don't think they need to be as slow as they are, though. I think a 50% increase in build time would be better than doubling it.

I like the new worker build options! (IE terraces, growing farms/mines/etc)

I think it was a good idea making city raider/defender come at a higher level. (as opposed to eliminating them)

The defensive retreat... grr those aggravating goblin chariots!! Really fits themewise, so great job with that! I don't know if it should be a universal ability- but really does fit with goblins which are supposed to be annoying and aggravating! One thing though- about 50% of the time it says that the unit ran away but I killed it anyways.

Love the ZoC!! My problem I posted about before was probably just bad luck, because I have seen the forts block movement now.

OK long post wasted 10 more minutes of work :) Better get something productive done before the boss complains!

hello

my Bambur comes out as a half orange sphere; the other dwarf hero is ok
any idea of what is causing this ?
thanks

Looks like they were lucky to end their turn with a priest of leaves that has the ability to bloom forests on a tile that could be bloomed. That's just my interpretation, of course.

Yeah, the priest of leaves bloomed three forests right after each other, but that was it. :( I increased the AIweight of the Nature II promotion and changed the bloom spell so that it can also be cast on tiles with terrain improvements, but the AI refuses to roam around their priests of leaves so they get the opportunity to bloom. They just sit around in their cities. :mad: Even if I only give them the animal AI. Though that perhaps may be because the already existing priests of leaves stay stuck with the unit AI of the time they were built (before I gave them only animal AI). I guess I'll see further what happens... :(

pastures

Hmm, my experience seems to be slightly different. Though of course I have less actual gameplay experience with RoM than some people here. :D So I'd love to hear more opinions.

Re pastures being a civ tradeoff instead of an improvement choice. I'd say that's partially true. Eg Khazad and philosophical leaders would fall on the farm/mine extreme, while Hippus fall on the other. But that counts for about every aspect of the game that there is some synergy between a certain strategy and some civs that are especially good in that. Eg some religions or unit research paths being the obvious choice for certain civs. For most civs though the impression seems to me though that they can go either way.

Re an evolution from pastures from farms, I seem to notice this partially too. For me though part of the reason is simply that the Sanitation tech is much cheaper and more attractive than Stirrups. Perhaps increasing Sanitation cost and decreasing Stirrups cost would help? Or perhaps split Sanitation in a Sanitation and Crop Rotation tech?

But still, the evolution from pasture to farm seems much slower with me. In my current game I'm currently still not building farms everywhere for the following reasons:
1) I don't have fresh water access everywhere.
2) My happiness limit is not high enough to support farms and high population everywhere, so I'd rather have some extra hammers than food that would only give me unhappy citizens.
3) I have repeated wars with my more powerful Sidar neighbour who's razing the improvements around a couple border cities. :mad: So it would be pointless to waste time on farms.
4) Worker shortages... Farms costs more time to build, so I find it better to build pastures instead for now. This is even more the case since I still have a couple Nomadic Horsemen running around who can only build pastures.

Aren't these issues for you? Though of course this may just be a consequence of the sort of games I play: generally a builder's nightmare. ;) 1) Fresh water access everywhere may be easier on continents or pangea maps. 2) Octopus Overlords and Ashen Veil have no issue with happiness limits. 3 & 4) The smaller maps with the more aggressive AI opponents you play, the more pastures become attractive, and the less time you have to build sufficient workers between the heavy military expenditures. Stuff like that.

the other thing i did was picked nomadism asap and got horseback riding, drafted "mounted settlers" which enabled me to expand a lot faster than usual, then just ditched nomadism again when i couldnt afford to expand any further. im not sure if this is really the spirit of nomadism or imperialism :)

I'd say that's just good strategy. Roleplaywise you could also consider the nomadism civic as cowboy style expansionism on the far west frontier. Gameplaywise for such a strategy to make a difference you need to research Horseback Riding early. You could have used that time to found a religion instead. So for the moment I'd say this is not unbalancing.

Tech tree could use some cleaning up- but thats a minor issue.

I know. I'm open to suggestions. :cool: Problem is that Warfare now has three OR prerequisites as part of the process of making the mounted and archer lines more attractive. And those annoying OR lines easily cause trouble. :(

I saw Blood of the Phoenix got nerfed!!! After I built it of course... Could be a cheaper build to reflect the much weaker ability, plus maybe an earlier tech- the new effect is weak for a late game wonder.

I didn't do anything. :confused: What's different?

One thing though- about 50% of the time it says that the unit ran away but I killed it anyways.

Have noticed that too. Don't know what could be causing it though. :confused: Normally the withdrawal event should happen before the actual attack even happens.

my Bambur comes out as a half orange sphere; the other dwarf hero is ok
any idea of what is causing this ?
thanks

I'd suggest to reinstall patch i and then RoM over it again. Normally you should have a Assets/art/units/Heroes/Bambur folder which got added with the latest patch i.

I didn't do anything. :confused: What's different?


Had to re-load the mod so I could reload my save... Went back to the regular FfH so I could try the Svartalfar mod. :cool:

It gives +6 culture, +1 great prophet and free medic 1 promotion for units built in the city for 7500 hammers.

Which sounds vaguely like another wonder but I can't think of it at the moment.

small tiny question... it says in the list of changes... ah here is the number 7 in the list...

7. The Grigori can run Public Healers.

Hmm... I'm currently playing a game as these folks and well... how the hell can you change over to that if it requires your civ to have the Good trait? the only way I can see how you change your good/neutral/evil trait is to change religions... which Grigori can't do because of their trait that doesn't allow that... so tell me how can one change to public healers without having to be in the good area?

small tiny question... it says in the list of changes... ah here is the number 7 in the list...

7. The Grigori can run Public Healers.

Hmm... I'm currently playing a game as these folks and well... how the hell can you change over to that if it requires your civ to have the Good trait? the only way I can see how you change your good/neutral/evil trait is to change religions... which Grigori can't do because of their trait that doesn't allow that... so tell me how can one change to public healers without having to be in the good area?

:confused:
That is the entire point of change. You need good alignment OR to be Grigori.

@Maniac- In special building infos xml, disable that temples are allowed by philosophy, (Vanilla FfH cosmetic issue, I'm going to post that there)

:cringe: I'm not sure you get my meaning... I am playing as them... yet when I go to switch to PUblic healers... it won't allow me to do so... says the requirement: good alignment is need.
if Grigori can run that civ... then why can't i do it? I downloaded the update to RoM when it came out...

Is it normal that I have a fully patched version of FFH, install the zip from the first page (by unzipping it in my folder, it all seems to be ok) but then it gives me XML errors when I load up the mod?

I'm using the desktop shortcut, but that shouldn't affect anything.

It starts up, so I'll start playing a game and see how it goes.

Yeah, it gives me an option to give my starting settler and 2 Dwarven Warriors invis on, or invis off, but no matter what I do, it locks up my computer.

So yeah, anyway. I put up the save, but now I think it my computer might be messed up.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84572/Arturus_Thorne_AD-0001.Civ4SavedGame

Is it normal that I have a fully patched version of FFH, install the zip from the first page (by unzipping it in my folder, it all seems to be ok) but then it gives me XML errors when I load up the mod?

Noe. What do the errors say? There's definitely something wrong though if you as the Khazad start with the option to turn invisibility on and off. Only Hidden leaders should get that. I'm afraid I can't open your save right now as I keep RoM in a different directory than you.

:cringe: I'm not sure you get my meaning... I am playing as them... yet when I go to switch to PUblic healers... it won't allow me to do so... says the requirement: good alignment is need.
if Grigori can run that civ... then why can't i do it? I downloaded the update to RoM when it came out...

Err woops. Thanks for reporting. I mistakingly put an 'or' where an 'and' should be in a python file. In fact I predict currently no one will be able to run Public Healers. :blush: Sorry... With all those changes it's easy to miss a mistake sometimes. Anyway, a serious enough issue to fix it right away, so I'll release version 6. I was hoping to wait until patch j came out, so I could take over the changes to drafting, but whatever. I'll upload the file tomorrow. Meanwhile here's the changelog:


1. Syliven’s Perfect Lyre’s cost lowered to 400 hammers.
2. Drama no longer gives a free Great Artist for the first researcher.

As a general rule I’m against giving more than one one-time bonus per tech.

3. Elder Council requires Education instead of Mysticism.

The Education tech was kinda getting empty after the removal of cottages, and the moving of Apprenticeship.

4. Apprenticeship requires Archery instead of Education.
5. Under Nationhood Training Yard and Archery Range each provide +1 happiness.
6. Bowyers no longer requires Bronze Working.
7. Longbowman no longer requires any resource.

Part of the process of making the different combat lines more attractive. The real reason to move Apprenticeship is of course to make more Archery more attractive, but I guess it makes sense as archery is together with Tracking probably the skill that would require the most training. And Longbowmen requiring the melee line is not a good idea if you want people to pursue archers instead of melee from time to time.

8. Pikeman requires Constitution instead of Metal Casting. Cost lowered to 110 hammers. Copper suffices to build the unit. Exceptions: Boarding Party requires Astronomy. Gargoyle is unchanged. Ogre is unchanged except cost is lowered to 120 hammers. Doviello Pikeman reduced to cost 135.

Again, real reason is of course getting people to use Pikemen from time to time. Making them require more research than Macemen which are better in most situations is not a good idea then. If you want a roleplay explanation why they require Constitution: pikes and spears are among the cheapest weapons available, so they are popular with peasant rebels who want a more polyarchic society (ie republic in FfH), which usually also involves fighting against mounted royalist troops.

9. Priest of Leaves now only has the Animal AI.

One day I’ll succeed in getting the AI to bloom forests... I’m sure of it. :mischief:

10. Woodsman II has iAIWeight 10.
11. Basilica gives +2 happiness under Social Order.
12. Captured slaves keep their race.
13. Dwarven Druid can see Shadows. Requires Metal Casting, and no longer Commune with Nature and a Grove.
14. Arcane Barge no longer requires Fire Mana (as it used to be).
15. If you have the Priesthood tech and have Fellowship of Leaves as state religion, Jungle has a 10% chance each turn to turn into forest.
16. The Drown, Stygian Guard and Eidolon cannot lose Water Walking due to Dispel Magic.
17. The AI no longer gives top priority to building a forge.

:D glad to be of service in noticing things... lol even though it's frustrating, that's where us the people who play these mods come in! We tell you about things that don't seem to be right with the game and as such you THE mods developers go back and fix.

Here's your next fix. ;)

Download the zip (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip)


Btw, now that I put Pikeman on another tech branch than Maceman, and they only require Copper, I'm wondering... should I leave them as is, or also use the Weapons promotions for them? That is, start with strength 4, but be able to get to strength 6 with Iron. Or would that make them too unattractive again?

:D glad to be of service in noticing things... lol even though it's frustrating, that's where us the people who play these mods come in! We tell you about things that don't seem to be right with the game and as such you THE mods developers go back and fix.

Heh, sorry for my response, I haven't really played Grigori in RoM... (But how comes that I never noticed that I can't run public healers even with good races?:crazyeye: )

Err woops. Thanks for reporting. I mistakingly put an 'or' where an 'and' should be in a python file. In fact I predict currently no one will be able to run Public Healers. :blush: Sorry... With all those changes it's easy to miss a mistake sometimes. Anyway, a serious enough issue to fix it right away, so I'll release version 6. I was hoping to wait until patch j came out, so I could take over the changes to drafting, but whatever. I'll upload the file tomorrow. Meanwhile here's the changelog:

Notice this? that's why... and it's fixed now with the new update he uploaded

ok , have to post this ....

i have now finally found the one patch with mania that i will not be patching. unfortunatley this prolly means an further patches are also useless to me. In one patch i can see multiple things that are unbalancing and thats very strange.

-- dwarven druids soo early and not part of the recon tree. personally i dont get it. if you wanted to make them see shadows to overcome the "weakness" of the dwarves to shadows (which i have yet to ever experience) thats well and good , but to make them sooo much easier to get all at the same time i truely dont understand.

i guess i am also a little out of date on what you have been doing with the tech tree also. at this point can you redo the tree.

changes to the archery line and not needing the metals i can understand , however for longbowmen and above if your removing metals can you put in silk as a requirement? at least its semi-limiting and honestly makes sense for the bowstrings.

- arcane barges no longer need fire mana? umm ok , not sure the reasoning here , but you jsut created a very powerful , cheap , difficult unit to deal with.

- do you feel turning jungle into forests is even remotely needed? or is this jst a way to avoid using the tech that allows for clearing jungle? your already looking at elves having the ability to build in forests so popping them into jungle outright is HUGE. and orc can already build in jungle so for an orc who takes leaves as a religion whats going to happen when all his jungles pop to forests?

- captured slaves keep their race? again how many ways can i think of this being broken. saying if a worker is taken as a slave it keeps its race i understand , but a slave should be a slave should be a slave. giving dwarven and elven slaves to balsaraph and OO jsut because they killed a dwwarf or an elf is again a bit off .

- why did you need to make pikemen more attractive? dont they get used alot more now to combat the hordes of mounted units that we see in mania?

- removal of the great artist from drama because you feel having too many one time bonuses granted to a tech .... do you , or anyone really , rush and get drama due to the power of these one time bonuses? last i recall drama was considered a bastard stepchild of a tech and needed a bit of a boost. in fact , the only time i even research it is on custom maps where space is at a premium (or on an always peace game).

ok, enough of a rant .... gl and enjoy the mod

-- dwarven druids soo early and not part of the recon tree. personally i dont get it. if you wanted to make them see shadows to overcome the "weakness" of the dwarves to shadows (which i have yet to ever experience) thats well and good , but to make them sooo much easier to get all at the same time i truely dont understand.

I agree with you- that ability to dwarven druids seems a little odd. We had discussed the need for dwarven recon unit before though, never thought druids would get the ability though!

changes to the archery line and not needing the metals i can understand , however for longbowmen and above if your removing metals can you put in silk as a requirement? at least its semi-limiting and honestly makes sense for the bowstrings.

Linen, hemp and sinew are historical bowstring materials. Silk would not be strong enough. Since cotten for linen and marajuana for hemp don't exist as resources, use cows for the sinew?? I suppose maybe substitute corn for hemp but that is probably not strong enough either...

- do you feel turning jungle into forests is even remotely needed? or is this jst a way to avoid using the tech that allows for clearing jungle? your already looking at elves having the ability to build in forests so popping them into jungle outright is HUGE. and orc can already build in jungle so for an orc who takes leaves as a religion whats going to happen when all his jungles pop to forests?

yes- and 10% a turn to boot.... If this is really wanted, maybe .01%? but needed? FoL can cut down jungles and bloom a forest. is an automatic wait 10 turns and get it all for free necessary?

- captured slaves keep their race? again how many ways can i think of this being broken. saying if a worker is taken as a slave it keeps its race i understand , but a slave should be a slave should be a slave. giving dwarven and elven slaves to balsaraph and OO jsut because they killed a dwwarf or an elf is again a bit off .

I don't understand how you think this one is broken. This is needed- because there are human cages, dwarf cages, elf cages, etc. How are you supposed to build them otherwise?

- removal of the great artist from drama because you feel having too many one time bonuses granted to a tech .... do you , or anyone really , rush and get drama due to the power of these one time bonuses? last i recall drama was considered a bastard stepchild of a tech and needed a bit of a boost. in fact , the only time i even research it is on custom maps where space is at a premium (or on an always peace game).

I agree and am confused on this too- I thought the general consensus from the theaters thread was drama technology and theater buildings are both severely overpriced and not really useful. I used them anyways, but I'm still a noob- and haven't played as much as others...

Notice this? that's why... and it's fixed now with the new update he uploaded

Version six doesn't break savegames btw, so you should be able to continue your Grigori game.

ok , have to post this ....

Hi long time no read. :)

-- dwarven druids soo early and not part of the recon tree. personally i dont get it. if you wanted to make them see shadows to overcome the "weakness" of the dwarves to shadows (which i have yet to ever experience) thats well and good , but to make them sooo much easier to get all at the same time i truely dont understand.

Well I was only reacting to this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4876988#post4876988
and especially to this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4876988&postcount=30

Though actually it's just as costly for the Khazad to research towards Metal Casting + Priesthood than for Fellowship of Leaves followers to research towards Commune with Nature. They could of course be delayed a tech towards Mithril Working? But then they would take much longer to research than with Commune with Nature! Though of course then the Dwarves wouldn't be forced to research the otherwise for them completely useless recon branch.

changes to the archery line and not needing the metals i can understand , however for longbowmen and above if your removing metals can you put in silk as a requirement? at least its semi-limiting and honestly makes sense for the bowstrings.

I don't know: silk is probably too rare. And wheat/corn/cow too abundant to make any difference. The Chinese Unification scenario in Warlords has a Hennep resource though IIRC. It could be neat if FfH took that over. Though as far as I can see longbowmen requiring no resource should only be a balance problem if suddenly everyone starts b-lining to the archery line instead of melee/recon/mounted, no? Somehow I doubt this will be the case...

Though how about silk (which one could think of to include bowstring material) as the requirement for flurries and marksmen, instead of iron and mithril? For tier4 units a rare resource requirement is not unbalancing I assume. Thoughts?

- arcane barges no longer need fire mana? umm ok , not sure the reasoning here , but you jsut created a very powerful , cheap , difficult unit to deal with.

That's actually the situation in regular FfH: arcane barges requiring no fire mana. Anyway, for the record, my reasoning was: people have said that fire mana is one of the best manas around and the first they build on a mana node(though personally I don't really agree with this opinion). So my prior change to make the arcane barge require fire mana makes fire mana even more powerful, as it removes an option to gain fireballs without having fire mana.

Though actually I don't really care much either way. If there are other people who think the arcane barge should require fire mana, I'll happily put it back in.

I had another idea in mind though. Wondering what you'd think about that. Arcane barges no longer requiring Sorcery, but instead requiring Fire Mana OR Gunpowder. (Unfortunately you can't give OR tech or building prerequisites to units) This way people would have two routes to get arcane barges: the usual magic way, or the alchemist way (gunpowder is enabled by Alchemy). Here the 'gunpowder' resource and fireballs would actually represent Greek Fire. :) Side benefit would be that the Alchemy b-line could become a bit more attractive.

- do you feel turning jungle into forests is even remotely needed? or is this jst a way to avoid using the tech that allows for clearing jungle?

That's basically it. FfH is all about specialization. It didn't really feel right to me that Fellowship of Leaves has to research the farming branch. And chopping jungles doesn't really fit in their ethos I assume. Anyway, I've already played a game with this change, and the change goes much slower and gradual than you'd expect. :hmm: I could always half the chance to 5%? For comparison, forest -> ancient forest is 3%, though here too it seems to take much longer than 33 turns.

your already looking at elves having the ability to build in forests so popping them into jungle outright is HUGE. and orc can already build in jungle so for an orc who takes leaves as a religion whats going to happen when all his jungles pop to forests?

Re Elves, if that's a problem the Elves should be dealt with, not the Fellowship of Leaves as a whole. Though actually, since the Elves can build farms on forest, they are the Leaves follower for whom Sanitation is most useful, so a jungle->forest change would have the least effect on them.
Re Orcs, the event which changes jungle into forest also removes all terrain improvements except forts.

- captured slaves keep their race? again how many ways can i think of this being broken. saying if a worker is taken as a slave it keeps its race i understand , but a slave should be a slave should be a slave. giving dwarven and elven slaves to balsaraph and OO jsut because they killed a dwwarf or an elf is again a bit off .

As cvlowe said, the fact that if you capture a unit, it turns into a slave of its race is already in in regular FfH. What I now did is only a bugfix I assume. I noticed in my current Balseraph game that if I defeated any orc unit, I got an orc slave a quarter of the time as it should be, but if then the Clan of Embers immediately recaptured that orc slave, it turned into a human slave... I don't think that can be intended.

- why did you need to make pikemen more attractive? dont they get used alot more now to combat the hordes of mounted units that we see in mania?

I don't know - nobody's commented on that yet. Do they?

Side benefit is of course a b-line to Constitution becomes more attractive. And Pikemen could be weakened a bit again by having them use the Bronze/Iron Weapons system.

- removal of the great artist from drama because you feel having too many one time bonuses granted to a tech .... do you , or anyone really , rush and get drama due to the power of these one time bonuses? last i recall drama was considered a bastard stepchild of a tech and needed a bit of a boost. in fact , the only time i even research it is on custom maps where space is at a premium (or on an always peace game).

Well the great artist got removed but the Perfect Lyre got a 500 hammer reduction in cost, so in theory this should be a zero-sum operation. Have you ever built the Perfect Lyre btw shortly after researching Drama? I at least haven't, even not with the Balseraph. I'm hoping it might with this change. I could lower the cost even more to 250 or 300 hammers?

Btw, if you're always the first to research Drama despite not even b-lining to it early on, you should probably play with more powerful AI opponents. :D

Btw, I was also thinking about removing the free Great Engineer from Engineering, for the same reason: it already has a one-time bonus. I guess people would be against that too? :mischief:


Anyway, I hope I'll get some reactions from several people to these issues. :)

ok , here goes again...

- gotcha on the slaves bit , sorry been a long time since i really used them. personally i dont really like balseraph seeing as pepintach was always a lil buggy for me and the other one is a waste imho. i do use OO alot , but tend to not be able to make cages and sac my slaves pretty quick.

- typically i am first to get drama when i get it , which is only wheni am pressed by the AI. i would LOVE to be able to play with more powerful AI's (hows that AI patch coming?hehe , been playing on diety for a while)

- please dont take it from engineering it works and helps support a less used tree.

- as far as the jungle to trees .... please play the clan and go for FoL and see jsut how nice that is ... then see how your change really will bend them over. and how it does not add anything to the other groups other then saving the build time (and making it so they dont have to learn to clear jungle)... on that note if your FoL your NOT taking the tech for the healthy so why take it again? ahh jungles...

- the mellee line was great you got to the point of macemen and pikemen and were given a CHOICE of 2 good units , both with specialties. if you did not build both 9 times in 10 you faced the wrong ones. i typically garison a min of 3 units in a city (archer, mellee , pike) and sometimes a horse ... lol

- as far as your saying with teh arcane barges (lets accept the fire mana issue atm , will talk about that below). what sets the arcane barge aapart is the fact taht its attacking from a range and has a very large effective combat range. (example of obsurd - base move + promos + navigate globe + lanun + oarsmen? + range of fireball) thats without haste , lol.

- i assume the dwarven druid thing was for the khazad benefit. but i ahve to ask , hwo are the khazad weak to shadows? are they killing your poor defenseless hammerfists? i will however make what i feel is an honest suggestion , make a dwarven arbelist to replace longbowmen and a dearven marksmen also and have both require gunpowder. put them in the chemistry tree with the cannons.

- sylvans perfect lyre ..... you want this to be useful? change it from 100% culture to 50% culture in city built , and 10% in all other cities and keep it at full cost.the downside is for the 10% to matter you still need over 10 culture per turn and at that point you dont need it. thinking again its mostly a redundant thing. change the lyre to 10 in city and 1 in all other cities ... then you can see some real use.

ok , here goes again...

- gotcha on the slaves bit , sorry been a long time since i really used them. personally i dont really like balseraph seeing as pepintach was always a lil buggy for me and the other one is a waste imho. i do use OO alot , but tend to not be able to make cages and sac my slaves pretty quick.

- typically i am first to get drama when i get it , which is only wheni am pressed by the AI. i would LOVE to be able to play with more powerful AI's (hows that AI patch coming?hehe , been playing on diety for a while)

- please dont take it from engineering it works and helps support a less used tree.

- as far as the jungle to trees .... please play the clan and go for FoL and see jsut how nice that is ... then see how your change really will bend them over. and how it does not add anything to the other groups other then saving the build time (and making it so they dont have to learn to clear jungle)... on that note if your FoL your NOT taking the tech for the healthy so why take it again? ahh jungles...

- the mellee line was great you got to the point of macemen and pikemen and were given a CHOICE of 2 good units , both with specialties. if you did not build both 9 times in 10 you faced the wrong ones. i typically garison a min of 3 units in a city (archer, mellee , pike) and sometimes a horse ... lol

- as far as your saying with teh arcane barges (lets accept the fire mana issue atm , will talk about that below). what sets the arcane barge aapart is the fact taht its attacking from a range and has a very large effective combat range. (example of obsurd - base move + promos + navigate globe + lanun + oarsmen? + range of fireball) thats without haste , lol.

- i assume the dwarven druid thing was for the khazad benefit. but i ahve to ask , hwo are the khazad weak to shadows? are they killing your poor defenseless hammerfists? i will however make what i feel is an honest suggestion , make a dwarven arbelist to replace longbowmen and a dearven marksmen also and have both require gunpowder. put them in the chemistry tree with the cannons.

- sylvans perfect lyre ..... you want this to be useful? change it from 100% culture to 50% culture in city built , and 10% in all other cities and keep it at full cost.the downside is for the 10% to matter you still need over 10 culture per turn and at that point you dont need it. thinking again its mostly a redundant thing. change the lyre to 10 in city and 1 in all other cities ... then you can see some real use.

It`s a bit too late to answer a lot of your questions, but regarding slavery. Imagine that Faeryl Viconia is your neighbour, and you end up in a war with her. Those elven slaves are great. Even if you have to stack 2/3 of them together to be as efficient as a normal worker, those slaves still can work forest tiles like an elf ;)

- gotcha on the slaves bit , sorry been a long time since i really used them. personally i dont really like balseraph seeing as pepintach was always a lil buggy for me and the other one is a waste imho.

Really? Balseraph has become my favourite civ. :D

i do use OO alot , but tend to not be able to make cages

They're Balseraph only. Anyway, in RoM slaves can't build the terrain improvements of elves & dwarves anyway, so capturing a slave of another race has for most no effect whatsoever.

- typically i am first to get drama when i get it , which is only wheni am pressed by the AI. i would LOVE to be able to play with more powerful AI's (hows that AI patch coming?hehe , been playing on diety for a while)

Wow! :eek: On what map size with how many opponents do you play?
Anyway, I'm hoping the Fire phase will include some of the work of Blake/Iustus on AI. :)

- please dont take it from engineering it works and helps support a less used tree.

On a general note, giving one-time boni to boost an unused tech tree is a bad idea IMO, as it still leaves the branch unattractive for everyone but the first researcher. I don't know, I'd rather do some other stuff. Perhaps a 25% increase in worker speed with Engineering for everyone? Or remove the windmill and watermill terrain improvements (they're kinda redundant anyway due to terraces/pastures/mines and the ability to terraform) but instead add a windmill and watermill city building which increases hammer and food production?

- as far as the jungle to trees .... please play the clan and go for FoL and see jsut how nice that is ... then see how your change really will bend them over. and how it does not add anything to the other groups other then saving the build time (and making it so they dont have to learn to clear jungle)... on that note if your FoL your NOT taking the tech for the healthy so why take it again? ahh jungles...

Could you please rephrase this? I'm not sure what you want to say.

- the mellee line was great you got to the point of macemen and pikemen and were given a CHOICE of 2 good units , both with specialties.

Hmm? Are you against the change to pikemen because it makes them too powerful, or because it weakens the melee line a bit and spreads the benefits elsewhere?

- as far as your saying with teh arcane barges (lets accept the fire mana issue atm , will talk about that below). what sets the arcane barge aapart is the fact taht its attacking from a range and has a very large effective combat range. (example of obsurd - base move + promos + navigate globe + lanun + oarsmen? + range of fireball) thats without haste , lol.

Yes, but how does this interact with fire mana being required or not?

- i assume the dwarven druid thing was for the khazad benefit. but i ahve to ask , hwo are the khazad weak to shadows? are they killing your poor defenseless hammerfists?

Well actually I have yet to face a single AI shadow. I always get bored and declare my game a victory before they reach them. :mischief: But anyway, I was just going on what was said in the other thread. Though as you can read there, there's disagreement regarding Khazad and Shadows. So no matter what I do, some people would always be unhappy... :(

Though how about silk (which one could think of to include bowstring material) as the requirement for flurries and marksmen, instead of iron and mithril? For tier4 units a rare resource requirement is not unbalancing I assume. Thoughts?

scarcity-wise it might fit. But a bowstring has to be able to stretch and return to its previous shape (which if you have ever worn a silk shirt you know is not the case), AND has to be rated 4 times the strength of a bow. So if silk on a regular bowstring is silly, on a longbow (typically about 80 pounds or so) the silk bowstring would have to hold at least 320 pounds. It would have to be a good inch thick!! Silk is valuable as a shiny, pretty cloth making material, not used in applications requiring durability. I know its a fantasy game, you could call it a magic silk bowstring or something- hey there you go require silk and maybe life mana :)


That's basically it. FfH is all about specialization. It didn't really feel right to me that Fellowship of Leaves has to research the farming branch. And chopping jungles doesn't really fit in their ethos I assume. Anyway, I've already played a game with this change, and the change goes much slower and gradual than you'd expect. :hmm: I could always half the chance to 5%? For comparison, forest -> ancient forest is 3%, though here too it seems to take much longer than 33 turns.

OK not sure how the game calculates, 10% seemed high though... 20 squares around your city, if all jungle should change roughly 2 a turn... That seemed crazy but if its not that, then might not be so bad.


Really? Balseraph has become my favourite civ. :D


Agreed :)

Could you please rephrase this? I'm not sure what you want to say.

I think he was trying to say- if you playing orcs, buuild up your jungles then get FoL, that will demolish all your cities improvements. In that case- this limits your religion options...

Still I don't see the need for the jungle-forest conversion. I am playing a game (vanilla FfH no mods) as Balseraph with OO and my island was mostly desert/jungle. I finally got some druids to terraform the desert to plains, and my workers hacked away at the jungles. Now the druids are running around blooming forests for the workers to build lumbermills, I'm even razing some of my own farms and cottages to grow forests cause my cities were too big/ not enough production. So if its WAY TOO easy for OO to grow forests all over their territory, why does FoL need assistance with it?


Well actually I have yet to face a single AI shadow. I always get bored and declare my game a victory before they reach them. :mischief: But anyway, I was just going on what was said in the other thread. Though as you can read there, there's disagreement regarding Khazad and Shadows. So no matter what I do, some people would always be unhappy... :(

I have, but as Kazad I found (after that discussion) it wasn't as much a big deal as I anticipated because I didn't have magic users, only solid troops in my invasion. I still think the hawk option would be cool :cool:

scarcity-wise it might fit. But a bowstring has to be able to stretch and return to its previous shape (which if you have ever worn a silk shirt you know is not the case), AND has to be rated 4 times the strength of a bow. So if silk on a regular bowstring is silly, on a longbow (typically about 80 pounds or so) the silk bowstring would have to hold at least 320 pounds. It would have to be a good inch thick!! Silk is valuable as a shiny, pretty cloth making material, not used in applications requiring durability. I know its a fantasy game, you could call it a magic silk bowstring or something- hey there you go require silk and maybe life mana :)

Option 1: "You have no idea how strong giant spider silk is, don't you??" :eek:

Option 2: Rename Silk to Hemp. Hemp giving happiness benefits still fits.

I think he was trying to say- if you playing orcs, buuild up your jungles then get FoL, that will demolish all your cities improvements. In that case- this limits your religion options...

Jungle with village: +1 gold, -0.5 health
Jungle with pasture: -1 food, +1 hammer, +1 gold, -0.5 health
Forest: +1 hammer, +0.5 health, with the option of growing into ancient forest

I don't see how the Clan of Embers is losing here. Jungle still sucks even with a terrain improvement. AFAIK Orcs being able to build on jungle is only useful to tie up some resources earlier.

Druids are another issue. I agree it's easy to bloom forest with them. One thing I did in RoM is to make them require Nature Mana as a starter. Though for the Fire phase I'm hoping more gradual negative terraforming will happen due to Armageddon spells, meaning terraforming becomes harder.

Btw, on what map size and with how many opponents do you play usually?

why does FoL need assistance with it?

It's to allow specialization, to not force them to research techs which are otherwise useless for them. (Same reason why Dwarven Druid got moved to the metal branch) Though I must say it was very useful in my current Balseraph game where I don't have Incense and couldn't even bloom forests until druids! :sad:

I have, but as Kazad I found (after that discussion) it wasn't as much a big deal as I anticipated because I didn't have magic users, only solid troops in my invasion. I still think the hawk option would be cool :cool:

Ok, I'll guess I'll remove the shadow-see ability in version 7. ;) Which should be pretty soon, as Kael said he might release patch j this weekend.

Other stuff?

Half jungle->forest conversion for FoL (at least give it a try :p )
Make Pikeman use the Weapons promotion system
bugfix: Make Bronze/Iron Weapons require Bronze/Iron Working. Currently you only need the bronze/iron resource, which causes problems as these are already visible (and also enabled apparently) with Mining/Smelting.
make tier4 archers require silk or hemp instead of metal

Eagle would be cool, if someone gives me a graphics as Xmas present. :cool:

I'd of course appreciate feedback on what research paths everyone prioritizes now, so that I can make changes/reversions if necessary, especially regarding longbowmen and pikemen.

- why did you need to make pikemen more attractive? dont they get used alot more now to combat the hordes of mounted units that we see in mania?

So to other people: did you use pikemen more now, when it still was on Metal Casting?

And did/do you use arcane barges a lot?

Option 2: Rename Silk to Hemp. Hemp giving happiness benefits still fits.

I like! Will have to change the picture though! Though it should give +1 happy and -1 hammer :smoke:


I don't see how the Clan of Embers is losing here. Jungle still sucks even with a terrain improvement. AFAIK Orcs being able to build on jungle is only useful to tie up some resources earlier.


I haven't played orcs yet, so I really wouldn't know :undecide:

Druids are another issue. I agree it's easy to bloom forest with them. One thing I did in RoM is to make them require Nature Mana as a starter. Though for the Fire phase I'm hoping more gradual negative terraforming will happen due to Armageddon spells, meaning terraforming becomes harder.

When I played Khazad, my druids did not get nature as an option... I am sure I had a nature node... I think he had chaos instead.

Btw, on what map size and with how many opponents do you play usually?

Played huge with default for a few games. Took WAY to long to play a game though. Current game is large and I added 5 or 6 opponents. Ended up with 4 equal size big continents with approx 4 civs on each. The land got filled up VERY quick- so not much barb action :( After conquering my island, I went and attacked lanun- they were very warlike, killed two other civs and nearly the kurioates until I distracted them!! Now I'm rebuilding/consolidating then I'll take out the kurioates :lol:

Eagle would be cool, if someone gives me a graphics as Xmas present. :cool:

Hope you get your Xmas wish :lol:

I'd of course appreciate feedback on what research paths everyone prioritizes now, so that I can make changes/reversions if necessary, especially regarding longbowmen and pikemen.

Currently? I focus on techs that allow terrain improvements, sidetrack to found a religion once I can keep my workers busy, then economy/military/terrain again, and once settled in to a position I can hold and maybe expand a little finally start researching magic. I also prioritize the pact of nilhorn, the stooges are fun to send rampaging through opponents territory weakening and forcing them to waste time rebuilding their military units! When I am ready to go conguer, I focus on getting the baron. much fun and mayhem with self-replicating werewolves [party]

On another note, why don't werewolves regenerate?

Pikemen? I never focus on them, though they do make good defensive troops when I can build them, to send to newly conquered cities so the werewolves can continue their march!

When I played Khazad, my druids did not get nature as an option... I am sure I had a nature node... I think he had chaos instead.

Dwarven Druids replace the standard Druid and get Earth instead of Nature mana.

Played huge with default for a few games. Took WAY to long to play a game though. Current game is large and I added 5 or 6 opponents. Ended up with 4 equal size big continents with approx 4 civs on each.

Wanted to ask because personally I think FfH/Civ4/civ games in general fall apart on larger map sizes. Reason is the more time the human player has to expand and build up peacefully, the faster he will outgrow the AI. For a balanced game you need to be threatened military right from the start. Eg current game og me is on standard map size with eight aggressive AI opponents and raging barbs. Before this I played a couple games on small maps with 18 AIs, but found this to be easier actually because you're not bothered with barbs and can pick off all those small and weak AIs one by one.

Anyway, just a tip to perhaps try out once. :D

On another note, why don't werewolves regenerate?

Hmm, you mean they don't replicate, or can't get the regeneration promotion?

I think he meant the regeneration promotion... I think werewolves are plenty strong enough already, even if regeneration would fit, flavor-wise.

Maniac,

Some first impressions:

great mod on the whole! it's awesome that you're taking the time to try out some innovations. I'm a big fan of the idea of nomadism as an early game alternative to agriculture. I think I agree on a lot of your civics changes.

i'm not sure yet if I prefer the new terrain improvements. So far it just seems different, not better or worse overall; other than the nice synergy with Nomadism and pastures.

Your combat system, hmm, I'm of mixed opinion. I very much like what you did to "fix" cavalry and pikemen. But I don't care for the changes to archers, and how that changes the whole bow/melee dynamic.

Cheers
Smak

I think he meant the regeneration promotion... I think werewolves are plenty strong enough already, even if regeneration would fit, flavor-wise.

In that case, that's probably Kael's doing. And as you say, it's not as if werewolves are too weak.

i'm not sure yet if I prefer the new terrain improvements. So far it just seems different, not better or worse overall; other than the nice synergy with Nomadism and pastures.

Yeah I guess I made those changes more for realism reasons and not for gameplay balance or so.

Your combat system, hmm, I'm of mixed opinion. I very much like what you did to "fix" cavalry and pikemen. But I don't care for the changes to archers, and how that changes the whole bow/melee dynamic.

You mean the recent changes in version six, or the change from +50% city defense to +50% versus melee, and de facto removing of city raider & garrison?

Thanks for your comments!

Thinking more about pastures:
What if pastures started out like +2 food, +3 shields, +3 gold. But then after like 10 turns the improvemetn would devolve. And then devolve again until it was useless.
However you still wouldn't be able to build a new improvement on that square for a while, avoiding exploits.

few thoughts ....

1 - love the idea of hemp , but woudl ahve to suggest a base that hemp be grown in forest with no modifiers. then with a plantation give +1 happy , -1 food +1 hammer +3 gold. people tend to be more productive (if single tracked) , have the munchies more , and it sells well.... this also kinda favors the elves , but i am ok with that since they are likely the most prominent archers.

2 - werewolves ..... insanely overpowered but hey ... just mho. lets not change em.

3 - dwarven druids are extremely highly end game units for the khazad and iirc late game unit but nto as much so for luchirp. typically you get these units due to the fact that your in a comfortable situation militarily and have decided you want the mithril golem so you reasearch to get druids then finish the arcane line. the opposte is true for luchirp , you get golem mastery then go for druids , then the mithril golem. in either case you are sitting at final parts of the game , if you even get there.

as far as the type of game i have been playing its been huge map with default settings , on diety level this typically takes me about 16 hours of play time to complete. more often i play hotseat and it takes forever and we give up after 8 hours , lol

You mean the recent changes in version six, or the change from +50% city defense to +50% versus melee, and de facto removing of city raider & garrison?


Oh, I meant the more fundimental change, like +def becoming +vs. melee. It seems to make archers the core unit, which isn't my preference. I was actually pretty content with the vanilla system of axe>sword>city and spear>horse>improvement with archers as defenders.. I like the way every unit felt like it had a unique use.

What do you see as the role of melee in your mod? It feels like there's not so much payoff anymore for acquiring metals early.

On the other hand I'm actually totally with you on restricting promotions, although I think you went a little too far with Raider and Defence. I would have met you halfway on that one, allowing certain unit types to still get them at low level.

But you know which ones bug me are Shock, Cover, and Formation! I think those should really be restricted a lot more, as they really erodes a lot of the unique-ness between units. Just to brainstorm off the top of my head e.g.

allow Shock to only heavy calvary, axe/macemen, all dwarves & orcs, and arquebus;

allow Cover to only maybe spartans, all elves, rangers, and light calvary;

allow Formation to all Spear types, elephants.

Well, thanks for provoking some discussion and sorry for rambling on without even finishing a complete game on your mod, haha.

Happy holidays!
Smak

Option 2: Rename Silk to Hemp. Hemp giving happiness benefits still fits.


And a caged spider provides... Black Widow Chronic? :)

Thinking more about pastures:
What if pastures started out like +2 food, +3 shields, +3 gold. But then after like 10 turns the improvemetn would devolve. And then devolve again until it was useless.
However you still wouldn't be able to build a new improvement on that square for a while, avoiding exploits.

That would cause a nomadic/pasturing played to need more tiles which of course fits roleplaywise. But I see two drawbacks:

1) Can the AI handle it?
2) micromanagement HELL!!!

3 - dwarven druids are extremely highly end game units for the khazad and iirc late game unit but nto as much so for luchirp. typically you get these units due to the fact that your in a comfortable situation militarily and have decided you want the mithril golem so you reasearch to get druids then finish the arcane line. the opposte is true for luchirp , you get golem mastery then go for druids , then the mithril golem. in either case you are sitting at final parts of the game , if you even get there.

Woops I just noticed a mistake. Dwarven Druids currently only require Metal Casting, while I also meant them to require Priesthood. :blush: Anyway, I don't really see why Dwarven Druids would need to be highly end game. :confused: If I'm following the nature branch, Druids are usually the first tier4 unit I research. So what's unbalancing about the Dwarven Druid (which requires more or less the same tech cost to get to as normal Druids) likely being the first tier4 unit for the Dwarves to acquire?

as far as the type of game i have been playing its been huge map with default settings

In that case if you want better AI opponents I would also suggest you play on at most standard-sized maps with more AIs than the game suggests, aggressive AIs and raging barbarians. I found Civ4 easy and boring until I played with these settings.

Oh, I meant the more fundimental change, like +def becoming +vs. melee. It seems to make archers the core unit, which isn't my preference.

At least in my experience this is not the case. I have yet to play a single game in which archers form the core of my army. Is this different with you? Personally I'd say the FfH tech tree would only be a succes if archery was researched before bronze working as often as bronze working is researched before archery. Speaking of, I'd definitely appreciate it if RoM players would post some statistics on which branches they research first and second in their games, with the four options being mounted, melee, recon and archery.

I was actually pretty content with the vanilla system of axe>sword>city and spear>horse>improvement with archers as defenders.. I like the way every unit felt like it had a unique use.

But what's the fun of a unit which sits the entire game in your city doing nothing? ;) At least now they're also useful outside cities and you can use them more actively. And since due to their high strength they're still good city attackers, archers still form good city defenders. At least in theory. :mischief: Would love to hear some comments on if/how people use archers after having played a couple games.

What do you see as the role of melee in your mod? It feels like there's not so much payoff anymore for acquiring metals early.

melee: highest strength, all-purpose unit since it has access to most counter-promotions
archer: first strikes, counter against melee and ranged mounted
mounted: speed, withdrawal (for ranged cav) and counter against archers (melee cav)
recon: exploration, animals, good at fighting in rough terrain, forest stealth, marksman

But you know which ones bug me are Shock, Cover, and Formation!

:confused: I didn't change anything about the counterpromotions except making Cover II available to mounted units (because horseman are meant as a counter to ranged units) and making them reachable by the Drill line.
But to explain Kael's work (at least IIRC he said once): the uniqueness of units in FfH lies more in the way you promote each individual one than in unit categories as a whole. Still, while the level 1 counterpromotions are available to about everyone, FfH added level 2 counterpromotions, and those are more restricted.

:confused: I didn't change anything about the counterpromotions except making Cover II available to mounted units


Sorry, didn't mean that those were changed in your mod; Just that I'm surprised you changed City Raider and not those.

Thanks for sharing some of your design perspective .. time for me to get some more games in so that I know more what I'm talking about ;)

wow, i really need to learn how to link what other people type.

-- i understand waht your saying about moving dwarven druids to metal casting and it being about the same cost as getting druids when you play elves, however thats not entirely accurate. umm , also , if you meant to have them require priesthood why not place them in the same tech as the inquisitor and require metal casting?(then you have them in the right tier). my arguement is more that you are now getting an extremely nice divine unit for going down the exact same tree that they woudl be going down anyway AND getting them almost an entire tier early. on the melee tree T4 units dont appear until AFTER you have mithril. that and there is no reason ,none, that the melee tree needs a boost. honestly i am starting to feel that your not moving the druid for balance or feel , but power and it does not feel right. if you wanted to add a boost tto the dwarves recon line , make a new caster that can get level 2 spells and summon the earth guys (kukjab or something). and put them in place of where rangers are.

- as far as what you have for unit roles you kinda listed it a bit wrong. atm is basically a rock paper scissors relationship and i love it.
-- calvary > archer > melee > calvary
-- primary purposes for each type....
calvary - harrasment and pillaging , not good at rooting troops out of terrain
archers - excallent general unit , the baseline default for defense
mellee - stong tough unit whose primary use is taking cities.
recon - recon and harrasment , never underestimate stealth and hawks

the key to mania that sets it TOTALLY appart and why i LOVE it (minor issues aside) is that it now forces you into handling your armies better.let me give you some ideas..

try to keep about 3 units in every city ( archer , melee, divine or arcane) and then maintain some calvary and recon units near your borders. anyplace your not going to be actively harvesting build a fort and place an archer (preferably in a forest), this ggreatly slows enemy movements. use recon units with stealth and hawks to check enemy lines and use calvary for pillaging missions. when you feel you have 4-6 melee that you can send off to sack a city forward you recon and calvary so that he cannot reinforce then seige it down. attack with your melee and or an archer backup. once you take the city , rebuild and move on.

If you mean quoting, just click the quote button on their posts. Else write [quote*=name of person;number of post]copy his message here[/quote*] widhout the asteriscs (*).

AND getting them almost an entire tier early. on the melee tree T4 units dont appear until AFTER you have mithril.

For the record, about half the tier4 units have as prerequisite a tech the same cost as Metal Casting.

honestly i am starting to feel that your not moving the druid for balance or feel , but power

:hmm: No need to insult me.

Anyway, yeah, the religious branch (Divine Right I guess) probably fits better for the dwarven druid. :goodjob:

sorry , did not mean it as an insult , just trying to understand what your thinking.

personally i have never had a problem with the dwarfs when i run around with hammermiths. to get an arcane/divine caster as a freebie to me seems odd. i can understand that some of the T4 units are in easier to get to techs, however none of those techs are in the melee branch. each and every T4 unit available to the melee branch requires a tech past mithril working. additionaly there are many many T4 units that require mithil so that if you dont have the dragon hoarde you still have to research the tech.

iirc the only T4 units that you can get without mithril working (ignoring hoarde) is archamges, summoners, highpriests, inquisitors, beastmasters , and druids. basically the arcane and divine casters, and the recon line.

if say you wanted to put dwarven druids into the melee line back into the slot with immortals then i would back you wholely , but as i see it , its way way to early for them.

Is it normal to see clan of ember become good because they convert to Order ?

Is it normal to see clan of ember become good because they convert to Order ?

Yes. All Civs become good when they adopt the Order. (no change from vanilla FfH, right?)

well I thought evil civ could not get Order or good civ Ashen veil and I always respected that in my games; until now the AI seemed to respect that also: I never saw any "illogical" mix

They won't found any religions that would change their alignment, but they can adopt such religions.

thanks for the explanation

Version 7 including the changes in patch j. Doesn't break save games.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip


1. Dwarven Druid requires Divine Right.
2. Jungle conversion chance halved.

3. Animal Mastery requires Bowyers instead of Iron Working.

Just another of those little things to make the archery line more attractive compared to the melee line.

4. Stirrups tech cost has been reduced 20% to 1280.

I had changed Horseback Riding from an OR prerequisite to an AND prerequisite a while back when I rearranged the F6 screen somewhat. Each OR prerequisite increases research speed by 20%, so this is only returning to the old situation.

5. Frigate and Galleon require Iron Working.
6. Bronze/Iron/Mithril Working is required to obtain the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapons promotions.

The fact that the metals become visible a tech before their official Working, meant that you could get some stuff earlier than you should.

7. Flurry and Marksman require Silk instead of metal resources.

I’ve got no Hemp pics, so you’ll just have to assume they use giant spider silk for bowstrings. ;)

8. All Pikeman variants except the Ogre and Gargoyle can acquire the Bronze and Iron Weapons promotion. Pikemen that can acquire the Bronze and Iron Weapons promotions are lowered 2 in base strength.

soem nice corrections made here,

1 - thank you , maintains some balance

2 - still hate this, ever thought of making this effect into a wonder that can be gotten same as that damn tree?

3 - bowyers ? or possibly bowyers and silk?

4 - cool cool , damn tech takes forever anyway

5 - makes sense

6 - awww .... you shattered a wonderful grigory tactic (shhh)

7 - nice nice (you know that you basically either have to clear jungle or capture a spider to pull this off on most maps, but still cool)

8 - much more balanced (basically pikemen are now the alternative to mercs and vice versa, instead of the alternative to macemen.) umm... why not mithril? for what you intend mithril would make sense and keep the unit viable. does it still have an upgrade path?

When I try to launch the mod, it proceeds for a bit then gives me a crapload of XML errors, the first one of which is as follows:

Failed Loading XML file XML\Units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml [.\FXml.cpp:133] Error parsing XML File -

File: XML\Units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml
Reason: Error parsing 'O' as int datatype

Line 46109, 31
Source <iConscription>O</iConscription>


The rest of the errors seem to be related to this file then not loading, causing all sorts of other XML errors with the unit entries.

I did a fresh install of the newest version of FFH, then copied the Assets folder for ROM from this thread's link, over top of the Assets folder in the FFH folder, and chose to replace any files with the same name. Since I was clever enough to make a backup, I was able to try it with and without the files in the top level of the ROM zip, which made no difference as far as getting errors is concerned.. Am I missing something obvious?

6. Bronze/Iron/Mithril Working is required to obtain the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapons promotions.:goodjob: Might have to play it just for this.

And trust me, the improvement are really fun.
the mines are a little lame, but the farms versus pastures are good.
the financial trait is also really better because anyone can put a pasture on a streambank and get an extra gold, and a farm will do the same eventually. (when it gets to cottage?)

3 - bowyers ? or possibly bowyers and silk?

I'd prefer there to be at least one tier4 unit for the poor suckers without any strategic resources.

7 - nice nice (you know that you basically either have to clear jungle or capture a spider to pull this off on most maps, but still cool)

Or run Fellowship of Leaves. :mischief:

8 - much more balanced (basically pikemen are now the alternative to mercs and vice versa, instead of the alternative to macemen.) umm... why not mithril? for what you intend mithril would make sense and keep the unit viable. does it still have an upgrade path?

Upgrade path still the same. Which reminds me. :hammer2: The Shieldwall and Spartiatoi should also be subject to the weapons promotions, with according reduction of base strength. On the to-do list!

You mean pikeman gaining Mithril Weapons? Like that idea. :goodjob: It would make Mithril Working more useful than just for gaining a couple tier4 units at a ridicously high cost. To be balanced though, Mithril Weapons should be reduced to +1 strength compared to Iron Weapons, and the pikeman cost should be increased again. Otherwise strength 8 pikemen would be way too attractive compared to the other tier3 units. Strength 7 seems still balanced to me. Knights should perhaps also gain access to mithril weapons then, since their counter can also get more powerful.

When I try to launch the mod, it proceeds for a bit then gives me a crapload of XML errors, the first one of which is as follows:

Ah crap. Thanks for telling. Seems I forgot to load up a game to make sure it works after taking over the conscription changes from patch j.

Why oh why do the O and 0 have to be so close to each other on the keyboard? :cry: I've made this same error several times before in the past.

Anyway, reuploaded the zip with the bug corrected. Sorry for anyone who already downloaded the file...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip

And trust me, the improvement are really fun.

Aren't you playing with FIRE? :mischief:

the mines are a little lame

Did I change anything about them? :hmm:

Did I change anything about them?
Nothing, that's why they annoyed me. I mean one of the dynamics is between the large stationary populations and the roaming pastures. The pastures help short-term and the cities more long term.
That's all good.
I mean mines are fine but it just seems like anyone not running the nomad civic has too clear a choice between farms and pastures. And anyone running the nomad civic has almost no reason to ever use mines (except strategic resources).
And I'd prefer if things were a little more nervewracking. Like maybe decrease mine yeild to 1 but increase (a lot) the chance of the mine discovering a metal. I mean why would they have a mine there at all if not for deposits of a metal. In fact to make mines more "hit or miss" but not make metals too easy to acquire you could create another metal resource (flint? tin?) that gives a bonus yeild but isn't strategic.

Whatever, just ranting and raving.

so back to this jungel to forest thing....

any chance you can change it jsut to make lil ole me happy and make a ritual or a wonder to do this effect instead of it being a flat out global? and have the ritual only effect the owners lands?

Genesis alredy transforms jungles to forests. (And terraforms land too)

The mines are a little lame... I mean mines are fine but it just seems like anyone not running the nomad civic has too clear a choice between farms and pastures.

Hmm I don't follow you. Did you perhaps mean "has too clear a choice between mines and pastures"?

And anyone running the nomad civic has almost no reason to ever use mines (except strategic resources).

True of course. Then again, for a Runes follower mines are clearly the better choice, and for a Leaves follower forests are. Pastures being better if you pick that one civic that is intended to make pastures better doesn't seem an issue to me.

And I'd prefer if things were a little more nervewracking. Like maybe decrease mine yeild to 1 but increase (a lot) the chance of the mine discovering a metal. I mean why would they have a mine there at all if not for deposits of a metal. In fact to make mines more "hit or miss" but not make metals too easy to acquire you could create another metal resource (flint? tin?) that gives a bonus yeild but isn't strategic.

Well if I'd design Civ I'd restrict hammers (renamed labour) and commerce to cities (or more precisely its citizens aka specialists) only, and elaborate on the resource system, making it quantitive etc. Would require a big redesign though.

any chance you can change it jsut to make lil ole me happy

Of course not. I'd only do that if it makes for a better game. Though I guess instead of automatic conversion, I'll make the "Bloom Forest" spell castable on Jungle, so that the rate of conversion fully depends on how much effort you put in it. But still keep the automatic conversion for the AI who doesn't use priests of leaves well.



Btw, to everyone, how about villages (with only +commerce though) being buildable on the coast for everyone? With Currency, Trade or Astronomy or something.

Since they were edited recently, can I assume your first posts in the thread are up to date? Meaning that they reflect initial changes and later version changes to those changes.

Yeah the posts are updated to version seven. It's of course possible I missed something.

Btw, a question inspired by the "religion wars' thread. In RoM each non-state religion provides 1 unhappiness, so it wouldn't be so beneficial to have multiple religions in your cities.

Apparently some people actively switch religions multiple times just to get some priests from each religion. I'm wondering, does the extra unhappiness discourage this, or do you still use that trick/tactic?

I switch religions to get priests (and high priest) of several religions

Playing as
Elves --> Leaves -> Octopus/Runes --> Order --> back to Leaves
Dwarfs --> Runes -> Order -> back to Runes or stay with Order

The rest civs... I submit a game because I was getting a CTD (there was a bug in worker movement) I thought it was because I had priest of Runes, Octopus, Order and Leaves ( I usually don't care for Viel ) and I was creating flesh golems with them...

I will try to get Runes for the money. If I don't have gems I won't adopt Runes. I like it because it's nice to enchant weapons.

Leaves only when I play as elves. Druids and mages can upgrade my terrain anyway.

Ashen Veil I almost never use it. I don't feel it's as powerfull as the rest

Octopus Overlords for culture and water mana. Nice to have for crafting golems

Order is the one I like the most. After having a previous religion I will end with the Order because "Shield of Flames" on their priests. And their heroes are very nice (better the angel)

--------------------------

One question about your mod
Do you install it directly on top of FFH II?
Or should we make a copy of FFH II folder so we can go back?

Maybe you should help with this matter on your first post

You can either make a seperate copy especially for Rise of Mania if you play both a lot, or just put it over your regular install. Both work. If you want to go back to regular FfH, simply reinstalling the latest official patch does the trick.

Version 8 of RoM (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip) has been uploaded. It will break savegames.

1. Money Changer reduced to cost 120.
2. Sanitation research cost doubled.
3. Engineering increases worker speed by +25%. The first researcher no longer gets a Great Engineer.
4. Drama gives +1 happiness in all cities.
5. Svartalfar Berserker removed.
6. Doviello Berserker starts with Shock I and Trainer.
7. Camel Archer starts with the Nomad promotion.
8. Stables no longer requires Horse.
9. New Unique Unit added, replacing the (Nomadic) Horse Archer for the Luchuirp, Khazad and Clan of Embers: the (Nomadic) Light Chariot. Same stats as the (Nomadic) Horse Archer. Requirements: Horse, Military Strategy, Construction, Archery and an Archery Range.
10. Automatic jungle conversion only happens for the AI.
11. Jungle no longer gives -1 Food.
12. Bloom Forest can be cast on Jungle.
13. Recruit spell adapted to fit new unit prerequisites.
14. Hippodrome requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses.
15. Armored Cavalry renamed Chivalry. Chivalry research cost halved. Prerequisites now are Feudalism and Stirrups. War Chariot and Knight prerequisites switched again.
16. Warhorses now also requires Bowyers.
17. Domesticate Camels renamed Large Animal Domestication. Large Animal Domestication requires Stirrups instead of Warhorses. The “Domesticate Elephants” tech has been removed. War Elephant now requires Large Animal Domestication instead of Domesticate Elephants. Pasture now produces an extra hammer with Large Animal Domestication instead of Warhorses.
18. All Knight, Pikeman, Spartiatoi and Shield Wall units (except the Luchuirp Golems) can acquire all Weapons promotions.
19. Ogre set to base strength 5.
20. Mithril Weapons provide +3 instead of +4 strength. Doviello Phalanx, Berserker & Immortal increased +1 in strength. War Elephant is increased +1 in strength. Shieldwall (except Nullstone Golem) is reduced -2 in strength. Spartiatoi (except Arcane Golem) is reduced -3 in strength.
21. Various Pikeman cost adjustments.

Btw, are people in favour of a clear and orderly arranged F6 screen, like the current one, or one where the techs are more pressed together, with advantage that you have to scroll less, but with disadvantage it isn't as easy to see the research paths? Eg Construction to the right of Calendar and Herbal Lore to the right of Drama?

I don't think that scrolling is a problem with a decent mouse, on the other hand unclear research paths are a big problem.

I wanted to ask if it's possible to fix the metropolis not getting the religious appearance. I couldn't find the code to change plots with religion, maybe it's in the dlls which means off limits for me :/

I dont use F6 anyway. I use civilopedia both in vanilla and FfH and I got to know what tech requires what.

I would MUCH rather have to scroll and have a clear F6 screen (which I use all the time) than to have it compressed. MUCH rather!!!

This is a great Mod², thank you for taking the time to improve an already excellent work.

I know this is too much to ask, but would you consider adding a summary that includes the total changes from the original version of FfH? It is very difficult to keep track of the comprehensive differences, and it would help the core FfH team probably in seeing what changes they might adopt when viewed as a whole.

Just my 2 coppers.

I noticed your GP request in the second post.
What happens when the growth rate gets negative?

I wanted to ask if it's possible to fix the metropolis not getting the religious appearance. I couldn't find the code to change plots with religion, maybe it's in the dlls which means off limits for me :/

Hmm, hadn't noticed that yet. I don't know much about graphics though, so I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to change this. I also noticed the village graphic is larger than the town graphic btw. :hmm:

I know this is too much to ask, but would you consider adding a summary that includes the total changes from the original version of FfH? It is very difficult to keep track of the comprehensive differences, and it would help the core FfH team probably in seeing what changes they might adopt when viewed as a whole.

Problem is RoM doesn't really introduce big new features. All this is just a big list of minor balance changes which added together lead to a better game IMO.

I noticed your GP request in the second post.
What happens when the growth rate gets negative?

Don't know. Though with a starting GPP increase of 150 and a -25 decrease every 5 GPs, it would take 35 GPs for the GPP per GP to start decreasing from the maximum of 2625 GPPs (if I did the math right). So I guess the issue is unlikely to ever come up.

***

Anyway, tomorrow I'll probably upload a small version 9 with some minor changes but more importantly a bugfix: I noticed a while ago the nomadic Light Chariot I added can also be built when not under Nomadism.

Hey, you got your name changed! :goodjob:

Problem is RoM doesn't really introduce big new features. All this is just a big list of minor balance changes which added together lead to a better game IMO.

That's exactly my point. Essentially, take all the RoM changelogs and compress the changes into a single comprehensive list. If I want to know how Mania differs from vanilla FfH, I have to do this manually, since some changes have been tweeked multiple times and other changes undone.

Oh, if that's all you want, check out the third and fourth post of this thread containing the thematic changelog and the changelog per file, which are updated after every new version released (and are included in the RoM download). The explaining texts in the thematic changelog are a bit out of date, but the actual changelogs are up to date.

WOW, this mod is better than a tapeworm infection! :)

WOW, this mod is better than a tapeworm infection! :)
That's my impression as well. Now just convince Kael. He thinks it's better than a root canal.

That's my impression as well. Now just convince Kael. He thinks it's better than a root canal.

Heh, I thought that he said it was better than an Oprah/Kael/Rosie sandwich. :p

Congrats, you just made it to my signature. :mischief:


Anyway, as promised here a version 9 with a couple minor changes. It doesn't break savegames.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip

1. Movement through Ice requires 2 movement points.
2. Monk requires Religious Law instead of Priesthood.
3. Heroic Strength I now requires Hero and Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
4. Units with March heal 10% extra per turn in enemy territory.

5. Captured Elven and Orc settlers become slaves. Captured Dwarven, Elven and Goblin workers become slaves.

To prevent the player from building terrain improvements he normally can’t.

6. Summoned tigers do not have Hidden Nationality, unless the caster has that promotion.

To get infinite tigers, get some nature magic casters yourself!

7. Mithril Working research cost decreased by 25% and Mithril Weapons research cost decreased by 33%.

Making the archery tier 4 units require silk instead of metals left the melee tier4 units much more expensive to get than all the rest. I think this should correct it somewhat.

8. Mathematics increases the hammers gained by chopping by 25%.
9. Camp produces two extra commerce with Animal Mastery instead of one extra hammer with Commune with Nature.
10. Plantation produces two extra commerce with Taxation instead of Currency.

Just some minor stuff to make some techs slightly more attractive, or in general spreading benefits over more techs than before.

11. Os-Gabella’s favourite civic is Sacrifice the Weak instead of Despotism.

While Despotism fits flavourwise, I suspect having it as favourite civic hurts her economy.

12. Ljosalfar, Svartalfar, Luchuirp and Khazad units won’t get their racial promotion if the unit already has one.
13. Nomadic Light Chariot can only be built under Nomadism.

Some corrections to previous changes I made.


That's it. Have fun!

I heard on the svartalfar mod forum that you might be putting some of the content from that in your mod. Is that true? If so, is it in there already or will I have to wait? I'll be honest with you. I have yet to see someone develop a crappy addition to this mod. I'm just looking forward to playing all the minor civs with all of the cool additions of all the mods combined

What can I say, I'm a mod whore :D

there are svartalfar units from Sureshot in this mod. And I really like that the hidden trait has a useful implementation now. Should be added to the vanilla FFH in my opinion, since if you play a random game the AI can pick Faeryl or Morgoth.

Yeah I took over the Svartalfar graphics and a couple minor ideas (eg the mounted tech branch with Chivalry etc), but I don't really have any concrete plans to do more than that. Though coastal towns could be interesting I think, as a terrain improvement for everyone, not just the Lanun. Say, workboats can build it if you have the Taxation tech?

I must say I don't really understand why people would want to play the "minor" civs. Aren't they rather bland to play right now? Just adding a couple unique units isn't going to give them the same quality as the other civs IMO. And as onedreamer says, I made a Hidden trait of sorts for the Svartalfar and Sidar to be more interesting to play against, not really to play with.

But anyway, if you still want to play with the minor civs, it's as simple as changing a zero to a one in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml.

alrighty then, thanks for the info. I do want to play the minor civs mostly because I like the idea of being a demon or a dark elf or a demon fighting angel. They may be bland, but it looks like it would be fun anyway.

Anyway, as promised here a version 9 with a couple minor changes. It doesn't break savegames.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania.zip


It broke my multiplayer save... is it possible to get v.8 again somewhere ?

I knew keeping archives of the previous versions would come in useful someday:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfH_Rise_of_Mania_v8.zip

What sort of multiplayer are you playing? :mischief:

direct connect. Will make you know if a rollback will work. Thanks !

Just a quick thought. It doesnt seem right that Public Baths and Aquaducts come from the same tech, Sanitation. One of them ought to be moved.. well... somewhere.

Speaking of, I still think +3 happy from the baths is kinda overboard, but bleh..

I agree re Public Baths. +2 happiness would probably be better, no?
Re aquaduct, mathematics could be given as an extra prerequisite?

Hi, I played the modmod again and I noticed something I also noticed the first time around: the ZoC are too strong. I know that you want to make movement in the enemy country possible, but if the enemy builds a few forts and places his cities strategically, you're once again stuck with "move a large stack by one square each turn", and we agree that this isn't fun. Also, the AI doesn't understand ZoC (which isn't so bad in itself seeing how the AI doesn't understand half of FFH to begin with, but) which is a problem because the same routines are apparently used to plot longer paths. So if I move a unit past a city and the unit has lots of movement, it will not do a little curve to avoid the city's ZoC and get to its destination quickly, but rather wade step by step through that ZoC.

I don't really know how to solve that problem, but I thought I'd bring it up. Also, and I don't know if this is RoM specific (I didn't have time to try it out in FFH vanilla yet), when attacking a ship on a coastal square with a Drown inside a city, I don't get any combat odds.

(I still really like the growing farms thingie, though it IS kind of abusively simple now ;P)

Hi, I played the modmod again and I noticed something I also noticed the first time around: the ZoC are too strong. I know that you want to make movement in the enemy country possible, but if the enemy builds a few forts and places his cities strategically, you're once again stuck with "move a large stack by one square each turn", and we agree that this isn't fun.

Hmm. In the couple occasions I've built mounted units, I've found them very useful with the Commando promotion. I think for the AI forts may be necessary to prevent being powerless against pillaging mounted units.
On the other side, I have yet to use the commando promotion on any other unit category. And warfare indeed stays mostly "moving a large stack a tile per turn".
To reach both goals, how about giving units with the Commando promotion a 50% chance to move into a ZoC tile without losing all movement (meaning the commando promotion would become more useful for the other unit categories) but reduce the current inherent boni of recon (25%) and mounted (50%) units to pass through ZoC?

Also, the AI doesn't understand ZoC (which isn't so bad in itself seeing how the AI doesn't understand half of FFH to begin with, but) which is a problem because the same routines are apparently used to plot longer paths. So if I move a unit past a city and the unit has lots of movement, it will not do a little curve to avoid the city's ZoC and get to its destination quickly, but rather wade step by step through that ZoC. I don't really know how to solve that problem, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Yeah I know. :( It would require SDK changes to correct that I assume.

Also, and I don't know if this is RoM specific (I didn't have time to try it out in FFH vanilla yet), when attacking a ship on a coastal square with a Drown inside a city, I don't get any combat odds.

That's in regular FfH too.

(I still really like the growing farms thingie, though it IS kind of abusively simple now ;P)

You mean you built all farms now and no pastures? If so, other people have said the same thing, though I don't really understand why. :confused: Don't you run into happiness problems if you build farms everywhere?

I've made a Rise of Mania v10. Download here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4088) if you're interested. It breaks savegames.

Changelog:

1. Winery provides +2 commerce with Taxation instead of Currency.
2. Bloodpet never becomes obsolete.
3. Sailor’s Dirge can move through Ice.
4. Mud Golem builds Workshop instead of Pasture.
5. City Raider and Garrison I now requires Combat I or Drill I. City Raider and Garrison II now requires Combat III or Drill III.
6. Amphibious now requires Combat II or Drill II.
7. Blitz now requires Combat I and (Combat V or Drill IV).
8. Sentry now requires Combat III or Drill III.
9. Formation requires Combat II or Drill II.
10. Cover requires Combat I or Drill I.
11. New ZoC implementation: moving next to a fort or city reduces movement points by 1, or by ½ if the unit has the Commando promotion.
12. Inquisitor’s national limit is now determined at python level. Under the Theocracy civic everyone but the Grigori can build three additional Inquisitors, for a total of six.

Btw, what would you think of any unit with XP level six or seven being able to be promoted to its tier4, regardless of the national limit? Except for the priests, magic users, druids and immortals. Would allow civs to keep their specialization in the late game while it still being worthwhile to research all tier4 unit types.

13. New building added: University. Prerequisite Liberalism, cost 300 hammers, +25% beakers, can appoint one extra sage.

I don’t like loose end techs which are only useful under certain specific conditions. Meaningless choices be bad.

14. Alchemy Lab increases beakers output by 25% instead of a fixed 4 beakers.

Currently Alchemy is useless unless you already have Metal Casting and are aiming for Blasting Powder. Hopefully this will make Alchemy attractive enough to sometimes be researched in the same time frame as other techs of the same cost. Meaningless choices be bad.

15. Stirrups tech cost reduced by 25%.

Recognizing that horse archers perform a more specific role than macemen, pikemen, rangers, longbowmen and crossbowmen, and that it’s usually enough to have one of those tier3 military unit to sufficiently fulfill your needs, Stirrups shouldn’t cost as much to research to be an attractive choice. Meaningless choices be bad.

16. Public Baths increase happiness by two instead of three.
17. Aquae Sucellus requires Medicine instead of Sanitation.
18. Aquaduct requires Mathematics in addition to Sanitation.
19. Bazaar of Mammon requires Trade instead of Currency.
20. Theater reduced to cost 180.
21. Per fifteen culture a city produces, it gains one extra happiness. Maximum of five happiness this way.
22. Consumption no longer provides extra happiness for the Market and Inn. Instead Consumption provides 1 happiness per 20% gold spending.
23. Gambling House de facto removed and recycled as the mechanic which provides 1 happiness per 20% gold spending under Consumption.

Several motives mixed with each other here. Too easy ways to get happiness such as Public Baths or Gambling Houses remove a lot of strategy from the game. Sanitation can also use some further weakening – the extra farm production alone already makes it more than attractive enough. Hence also the changes to Aquae Sucellus and Aquaduct. Besides, Medicine and Mathematics can use a boost. Bazaar of Mammon’s second prerequisite besides Math has been lowered for this reason as well. Reduction of Theater cost and extra happiness for very high culture will hopefully improve culture as an alternative happiness strategy and make culture not so useless in your core cities. Will probably need balancing.

24. An Adept built by the AI doesn’t start with Free Promotion but instead with a random first level promotion of the available mana types.

No more mages with Combat V but without magic spheres! At least I hope so, the python for this and the next two changes listed is kinda new for me, so I’m not entirely sure it will work.

25. The Barbarians get a random tier2 military tech for free if at least three other civs have researched any tier2 military tech.

AFAIK the barbarians get a tech for free if a couple other civs have already researched it. In vanilla Archery is a cheap tech which all the AIs get soon, meaning the barbs gets it as well and remain competitive longer. In FfH however the AIs research towards different kinds of tier2 units, meaning it takes much longer for the barbarians to get any tier2 military tech for free. This change hopes to have to the barbarians attack with something else than warriors and goblins in the early game.

26. If a civ who the AI has no open borders with researches a tier 2 or 3 military tech, that AI civ will prioritize researching a tier 2 or 3 military tech themselves.

Will probably need to be refined. Just testing.

Great looking stuff Maniac. We already have 17 changes directly from your mod checked into "Fire" (and a few more things we both did the same anyway). Looks like I may have to steal some more from this batch. :D

Heh, I was just about to say that I really like some of these balance changes and that I hoped that Kael & Co. would implement some of them. :lol:

Great looking stuff Maniac. We already have 17 changes directly from your mod checked into "Fire" (and a few more things we both did the same anyway). Looks like I may have to steal some more from this batch. :D

It may be the last version you see from me though. I never run out of ideas of course, but I can't find the time to spend digging in XML and python to implement them. :(

If you want though, I could write a document detailing the reason for every single change I made.

13. New building added: University. Prerequisite Liberalism, cost 300 hammers, +25% beakers, can appoint one extra sage.

This one especially looks nice.
But maybe also +2 culture.

I noticed the barbarians didn't get tier2 mil techs. I then also noticed python exceptions were somehow set to not show in CivilizationIV.ini. So I turned it back on, and get the python exception in the attached screenie. Does anyone what's the problem with the last line of this event?

def onBeginPlayerTurn(self, argsList):
'Called at the beginning of a players turn'
iGameTurn, iPlayer = argsList
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
py = PyPlayer(iPlayer)

bPlayer = gc.getPlayer(gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER())

iTeam = gc.getTeam(bPlayer.getTeam())
if (iTeam.isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_HOR SEBACK_RIDING')) == False and iTeam.isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_BRON ZE_WORKING')) == False and iTeam.isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_ARCH ERY')) == False and iTeam.isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_TRAC KING')) == False):
listTeams = []
for iPlayer2 in range(gc.getMAX_PLAYERS()):
pPlayer2 = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer2)
if (pPlayer2.isAlive() and iPlayer2 != iPlayer):
iTeam2 = pPlayer2.getTeam()
listTeams.append(gc.getTeam(iTeam2))
iCount = 0
for i in range(len(listTeams)):
if (listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_HORSEBACK _RIDING')) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_BRONZE_WO RKING')) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_ARCHERY') ) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_TRACKING' )) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_WAY_OF_TH E_FORESTS')) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_WAY_OF_TH E_EARTHMOTHER')) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_MESSAGE_F ROM_THE_DEEP')) or listTeams[i].isHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TECH_CONSTRUCT ION'))):
iCount = iCount + 1
if iCount >= 3:
PushTier2MilTech = [ 'TECH_HORSEBACK_RIDING','TECH_BRONZE_WORKING','TEC H_ARCHERY','TECH_TRACKING' ]
iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(len(PushTier2MilTech), "Maniac")
iTeam.setHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString(PushTier2 MilTech[iRnd]), True, bPlayer, False, True)

And does anyone know what bFirst is about?

VOID setHasTech(TechType eIndex, BOOL bNewValue, PlayerType ePlayer, BOOL bFirst, BOOL bAnnounce)
void (TechID, bNewValue, iPlayer, bFirst, bAnnounce)

If bFirst is set to true it checks for all the things you only do when the first civ learns a tech (like founding a religion). I always set it to true.

You code is dying because you are passing in a full player and it only wants the index of the player. The following should work:


iTeam.setHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString(PushTier2 MilTech[iRnd]), True, gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER(), False, True)


Incidently barbarians get progress towards techs that other players have. So if they arent getting techs its because other people aren't researching them (or it just hasnt been long enough since someone else researched them).

If bFirst is set to true it checks for all the things you only do when the first civ learns a tech (like founding a religion). I always set it to true.

You code is dying because you are passing in a full player and it only wants the index of the player. The following should work:


iTeam.setHasTech(gc.getInfoTypeForString(PushTier2 MilTech[iRnd]), True, gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER(), False, True)


Incidently barbarians get progress towards techs that other players have. So if they arent getting techs its because other people aren't researching them (or it just hasnt been long enough since someone else researched them).
they need them sooner !
barbarians never spawn the correct tier of units untill far too long has passed for them to be truely dangerous

You code is dying because you are passing in a full player and it only wants the index of the player. The following should work:

Ah thanks I see.

In the meanwhile I've two other bugs in the two other python events. :bored:

Ah thanks I see.

In the meanwhile I've two other bugs in the two other python events. :bored:

It sounds like we are both spending the evening fixing python problems.

I reuploaded Rise of Mania (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4088) - now with all python stuff actually working! (how's that for a slogan?)

Edit: oh yeah, I made three minor changes:

1. Forests can spread again.
2. Pastures can be built on Tundra.
3. Herbal Lore requires Calendar instead of Education.

:lol:

Quite a marketing slogan Maniac. :D

A marketing Campaign of which Akbar (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=020501) from 8-bit theatre could be proud.
-Qes

I like the way you think. :D
Both of this (and all other techs that give two one-time boni) has been addressed in Rise of Mania (now Fire compatible).

So... I'm waiting !!

Sorry I don't have time right now to update to patch D and write a nice commented changelog. I'd also like to make the AI use targetable spells and research better first. I know how to - it's just a matter of time.

I'd also like to make the AI use targetable spells and research better first. I know how to - it's just a matter of time.

Please share your secret with the rest of us Maniac? If it works I garentee it will be in the next version.

Well no i don't garentee, but it should be.

And I do garentee that i'm spelling garentee incorrectly.

Check the last post in the "FFH and the AI" post for an example with Banish. The AI is just faking it, but hey, better than nothing until something better is found.

In fact, I guess the code could be refined so that the spells automatically target the strongest unit or so within range instead of just a random unit, meaning that de facto there wouldn't be any difference between the 'faking' spells and actually learning the AI to target intelligently.

Sorry I don't have time right now to update to patch D .

but is there a version of RoM compatible with FFH 2 0.20 ?