This is the war room, ladies and gents. Our duty is to provide our commander-in-chief with options, strategies, and contingency plans. We'll likely discuss many more sorties and campaigns than are ever carried out, but our great nation must be ready for ANY threat!

Mind you, I personally hope that our military might will never have to be pressed into service, nor put any of our sons and daughters in harm's way... we're not warmongers here.

That's why I'm appointing as deputies some courageous men known for their balanced, thoughtful approach to military planning and the avoidance of war.

joespaniel as Rear Admiral :ak47:
Knight-Dragon as Commander of the Army :ar15:

These peaceloving fellows will someday be joined by a Commandant of the Air Force, should our research lead us to this path.

Our first formal war room planning session will commence after the selection of the civ.

Charis

Welcome General Charis. Our cabinet needs a valiant leader for our Military Department. Your reputation precedes you. Your campaigning and gallantry are well known throughout our citizenry. We look forward to the development of a grand military tradition adding color to our history. We hope that your future wars, unwanted though inevitable, not be protracted or futile. May your sword be swift yet merciful.

I hear and will serve, oh mighty leader! :)

That's why I'm appointing as deputies some courageous men known for their balanced, thoughtful approach to military planning and the avoidance of war.

joespaniel as Rear Admiral :ak47:
Knight-Dragon as Commander of the Army :ar15:

These peaceloving fellows will someday be joined by a Commandant of the Air Force, should our research lead us to this path.You're joking, right? :D :lol: I seem to detect a strong whiff of sarcasm there. :D J/k.

The game hath begun. For the moment, suggest we keep pumping out settlers and warriors/spearmen and explore/expand as fast as possible.

Settlers, whenever possible, shld be escorted by mil units until they are used to found a new city. For protection fr marauding barbs.

Other than that, nothing much to elaborate on until we meet an AI civ.

What do you think, oh mighty leader? :p :D

Or first unit has been build (a warior) ,and is exploring right now the outskirt's of our young nation.I would ask from the millitary department to make a decission on the next unit's that would be build ,if they would be used for exploration or for the defense of our nation.

> For the moment, suggest we keep pumping out settlers and
> warriors/spearmen and explore/expand as fast as possible.

Well spoken gentle Knight Dragon. Our highest priority is expansion. Being Persians, we have a unique opportunity. Every warrior we pump out, as scout, MP, or settler escort, can be upgraded to an immortal. Saving precious production and using gold, we will be able to go from weak to MIGHTY in a few turns (if we have some gold in reserve).

Even when we get iron working, be sure to leave a city UN-connected with a barracks that can continue to crank out warriors :)

Our vote for next mil/scout unit: warrior. Next 2-3 in fact.
At some point, one spearman for looks.

Charis

The Department of Foreign Affairs supports an agressive scouting program. We need to meet some foreigners so we can mess with their affairs! ;)

Members of the Military Department, and citizens of the realm. Your voices have been heard! :hammer:

We are Persia. We have the Immortal. Our starting continent
belongs to us. Any others are intruders, tresspassers, and must be eliminated. This is not the statement of a warmonger, but a statement of our "Manifest Destiny" -- see my post in the Foreign Affairs thread. I can see that Minister Shaitan has a similar view of things.

AFTER the continent is ours, and after our Immortals have past into the history books, it is an open question where our destiny will lead us. I personally hope for a time of enduring peace... after our homeland is secured.

Here are some thoughts pertaining to our Manifest Destiny, presented to you Mr. President, for strongest consideration.

- Immortals are our GLORY. We are Persia.
- The most efficient path to an immortal stack-of-doom is to produce warriors cheaply, and later upgrade them to Immortals.
- This allows us to have more shields for needed city improvements and for more warriors
- Use these initial warriors to scout, scout, aggressively scout
- We'll want vets, not regulars, so we'll need Barracks, and more than one
- To have the gold NEEDED for this program, I must recommend a policy of MINIMUM/ZERO science after we learn Iron Working. I recognize the KEY need to have scientific knowledge, as would our science department, but i would submit that *research* is an inefficient way to do it. It's literally and exactly one half the gold cost to buy a tech as to spend it on beakers and research it ourselves, AND our foes are cheap when it comes to valueing tech that we research. As a scientific nation, our time will come, to be LEADERS in the tech race, but that time is not now. (Beginning of new era when we get a new and vital tech, for example)
- Forget Spearmen (for now!!) We'll want enough Immortals to handily subdue our continent, and due to lack of an upgrade path, NO MORE. Their defense equals that of the spearman, and offense quadruples it. The mortals have a LIMITED ROLE, in time and function, but that role is one of: Early Offensive War.
- In recognition of our scientific nature (opposed to religious) I can support the whipping of a library in about every city. At 40 shields it's the perfect size, and gives the highest bang-for-buck for culture and expanding our boundaries. And it fits with our late stage goal of being a scientific leader.

* Since our People have been given this continent, and we are following our destiny in claiming it, to NOT claim it would be sacriligeous. In fact, I would submit this early action not be derided by the term 'war', but rather....

The Immortal Jihad!! :hammer:

The Jihad ends when and only when our starting continent is ours and ours alone.
General Charis

(PS It will be interesting to see if our starting position is an island or is one end of a huge pangaea!)

A very well-said and stirring speech, o mighty leader! :D :goodjob: Let's do it that way, at least until we find we aren't on a continental island.

Then I guess we'll simply expand to the max possible optimal size and then, ....... we'll see. Will be great if we're on one end of the pangaea; easier to defend strategically.

Do you need any Generals?

Originally posted by Shaitan
The Department of Foreign Affairs supports an agressive scouting program. We need to meet some foreigners so we can mess with their affairs! ;)

The Department of Trade agrees with this approach. We are pleased to find spices already, and hope to uncover other valuable deposits and luxuries within our immediate territory.

Bill_in_PDX
Trade Leader

> Do you need any Generals?

We need first louie's and majors and everything, although more in the field than in the boards :P

Not sure yet Das. If Joespaniel isn't a part of the democracy game I'll need to replace him. I was also thinking at some later point wanting an artillery and/or air force specialist.

Knight-Dragon... I do need some clarification. I think the deputization and the War Party came about, right about the same time. It was stated there that it was a civilian group. Should you be considered as a civilian/militian/national guard consultant with the ear of the Department, or as someone who left that group to take up a government position? :P

In any case, I'm glad to see not only the people's support, but the leaders' support, for the 'Persian' vision of destiny.

Charis

Okay, then, maybe you ened airborne/seaborne officers? Iam not only good at offensives and maneuvers, I am also good at landing operations (proved by my preivous Chinese game (not the SG one), when I captured Japan on a real world map).

Warriors for everything? have you been hit round the head by your enemies swords too many times Charis?!? Are cities will need defense and spearmen are still the best, by all means build up a good force of future immortals but dont leave us open to a hard sudden strike.

Kentonio

Originally posted by Kentonio
Warriors for everything? have you been hit round the head by your enemies swords too many times Charis?!? Are cities will need defense and spearmen are still the best, by all means build up a good force of future immortals but dont leave us open to a hard sudden strike.

Kentonio
I disagree. A strong warrior force will discourage hostile actions better than a spartan spearman force. We can build multiple warriors for each spearman.

True, but every city should have at least one spearman in defense. Whats the point in having a poor defensive unit defending? I have no probs with warriors but each unit should be used for what it was intended for and warriors suck in defensive situations.

Kentonio

Originally posted by Charis
> Do you need any Generals?

We need first louie's and majors and everything, although more in the field than in the boards :P

Not sure yet Das. If Joespaniel isn't a part of the democracy game I'll need to replace him. I was also thinking at some later point wanting an artillery and/or air force specialist.I have already PM joe so ....... BTW, what are louie's?

I don't think it's necessary to have so many deputies and specialists though. Two deputies is already pretty irregular and besides, we're merely advising and planning and it's the Prez who'll make the moves. Most times, it's better to use combined-arms approach anyways.

And besides, most times, warmongers know as much bout artillery bombardment as about massed forward blitz attks or aerial bombardment or naval engagements. ;) We'll serve as simple military officials is good enough.

Knight-Dragon... I do need some clarification. I think the deputization and the War Party came about, right about the same time. It was stated there that it was a civilian group. Should you be considered as a civilian/militian/national guard consultant with the ear of the Department, or as someone who left that group to take up a government position? :PCitizens' group, not civilian group. Something fun fr the older Civ2 demo game (at least, in its earlier days). I thought we need more stuff to spice up the game, rather than more boring gametalk. ;) :p

I said I'll serve, didn't I, o mighty leader? :D Looking fw to some fun.

I for one support our Manifest Destiny, and agree that we should push forward aggressively to sieze our homeland.

As for the warrior/spearman debate, remember that you can build two warriors for the price of one spearman, which gives you twice the riot control, and I would argue in some ways a better defense. Sure, it is easier to defeat a warrior, but two warriors are not as vulnerable in the early game to wandering barbs or raiding parties. One lucky shot against a single spearman can lose a city, whereas at least with two warriors, the first attack can only take out one, leaving a garrison. The drawback, of course, is maintenance, but that usually isn't a problem under despotism. When we get ready to upgrade them to Immortals, we can look at replacing them with Spearmen.

You make a good point Justus. The single shot defeat could indeed lose us a city. As long as this is just an early measure I concede you the argument :)

Kentonio

Good to see these fine military minds thinking and sparking debate!

It's not a no-spearman thing, but a priority thing. Warriors may sit in a city ready for action and serving as MP, but I assure you (if Mr Prez follows our line of thinking) they will *never* defend our cities! As for barbarians, we will, with double the usual 'warrior' force, hunt them and mow them down like the dogs they are!! As for opposing civs... none of them will EVER attack one of our cities. They will be too busy rushing for cover, too late to see anything but a stack of immortals running over their towns like syrup over a dollar stack of pancakes! :hammer:

For the same shields (the limiting factor), plus cash at the right time, you get two immortals for same production as two spears. Spears don't take cities. Spears don't BRING ABOUT manifest destiny. Spears who upgrade to mech infantry DEFEND that destiny.

EDIT-forgot this point- The AI measures a civ's strength purely by head count. 2x warriors means they consider us, and fear us, and give us good deals, twice as much as 1x spears.

It's not that I've been knocked over the head by too many swords, cadet, it's that our glorious immortals will be the ones brandishing the swords and caving in heads. No one should live to ever get an attack in on a Persian city! (Or in football terms, the best defense is a good offense)

Destiny,
Charis

I agree with all of you that think that Warriors should be the unit of production now in the start.

But a good city defence is that of an defensive unit, so those should also be built sometime.

The Warriors will be explorers and Police to start with, then upgraded.

We need workers to mine for shields to produce your illustrious and culturely domininant armies that will someday rule the world.

is it the ministry's plan to occupy rival cities and sell them back later, or do you wish to raze all the cities that we encounter?

Capture or raze? Good question!

It is primarily the job of the military to plan for and TAKE the city in question. What to do with the city itself seems, in part if not primarily, a matter of foreign affairs. There *will* be times when a city is needed to be held, and perhaps even something like a barracks rushing, to carry out the overall military goals. On a case by case basis we will make these suggestions to the President, but I have no set answer 'always raze', 'always capture'.

In the Jihad phase, for manifest destiny, the choice makes less difference, since whoever it is will be exterminated from our continent, negating chances of flipping or someone holding razing against us long term. Beyond that initial phase, the impact of the raze or capture will have a foreign affairs impact.

Thanks for raising this matter,
Charis

Originally posted by Immortal
is it the ministry's plan to occupy rival cities and sell them back later, or do you wish to raze all the cities that we encounter?
I hope we occupy and keep captured cities.

Razing cities???!?

I do not think so...,
We are a peacefull nation, razing citizens is not an option in my opinion, it's the most inhuman thing (besides nuking them) we can do....,

Stravinski and I are on the same page!

Originally posted by Stravinski
Razing cities???!?

I do not think so...,
We are a peacefull nation, razing citizens is not an option in my opinion, it's the most inhuman thing (besides nuking them) we can do....,
We're not going to be exceptionally peaceful in the beginning but I believe we should still be just and honorable. If there is a viable strategic reason to raze a city then it could be considered. As a policy though it's right out.

Originally posted by Shaitan

We're not going to be exceptionally peaceful in the beginning but I believe we should still be just and honorable. If there is a viable strategic reason to raze a city then it could be considered. As a policy though it's right out.

In ancient warfare, most cities can be captured without much fear of cultural reversion. Should a city be very close to an enemy capital, the military will have my support in the rush-building of necessary cultural improvements to minimize chances of this. This support will also include city walls and barracks in strategically important cities that are captured. At this point, I completely oppose the razing of cities.

I am opposed to razing any captured city on our continent.

Bill
Trade Leader

The popular opinion on razing cities has been made perfectly clear. I've added point 10 to the Foreign Policy post prohibiting city razing without preapproval and a popular vote.

Originally posted by Shaitan
The popular opinion on razing cities has been made perfectly clear. I've added point 10 to the Foreign Policy post prohibiting city razing without preapproval and a popular vote.

Agreed. Though the cabinet will probably have to vote on rule. It is dangerously close to a change in the constitution.

there will be no time for a popular vote. as the option to or not to raze a captured city pops up with the military advisor, saving and waiting will not be an option. a general consensus prior to the start of the game and a quick consensus of the cabinet members present at the game will have to do.

The warrior regiment was slain, and had no chance

:eek:

Fellow Persians...

It is my sad but proud duty to announce to you today the posthumous awarding of the Persian Immortal Purple Heart to the brave members of the Exploratory Warrior Platoon, for valor and courage on the field of battle protecting the citizens of our homeland.

Adjutant to the Light Infantry Division of Fox Next

---

Well, patriots, Persian blood has been shed. We seek to be a peaceloving people, but are opposed from the very start. But we will NOT be dissuaded!! We shall explore every nook and cranny of this great continent of ours until every single barbarian camp is burnt to the ground! Had no chance???? Our future divisions will 'have a chance'.

The Military Department shares the following recommendations:

- Full support for a 'no raze' general policy in the pre-nationalism era
- Continue request for cranking warriors (but not to the extent of slowing settler production - infrastructure will come, but not just yet)
- A Barracks, when convenient, but otherwise do let our warriors TRAIN on these barbarian camps. Even there, just one to start, not calling for several at this point.
- Do *NOT* push iron fast at the expense of our economy. As mentioned before, far better to crank six warriors then pay-upgrade to six immortals, than to jump the gun racing to iron to find ourselves with something like a single immortals a few turns early and just two or three warriors, with no money to upgrade, and no choice at our main producers to continue building warriors
- Aggressive exploration continued - will net us huts, and info on great city sites, and info on who is around us (if anyone!). If no one, beeline Literature, forsaking all else. If someone, stop on the way to research (or better, buy) any tech that would give us a military advantage.
- Can't neglect a worker or two either
- The Department is glad to see a president and other cabinet members so much "in tune" with these goals that we're confident of their ability to recognize our concerns mid-turn and mid-chat. Thank you!

General Charis

I'm trying to follow these advice as much as I can, Military Advisor. When we get Iron I will try to NOT hook us up to early but save our money to pay for our warriors training to become Immortals.

A barrack must also come someday. I cannot see at this point when... but it will be built. Maybe in time for upgrades or even sooner. Probably sooner.

The punishment for slaying our soldiers must have been harsh, because the barbarians never assaulted our capital. My guess is that our God let em starve in the desert. (I guess they went the other way...)


Good Job Charis!

/President Grey Fox

I noticed that the barbarians that ambushed our warriors did not come to sack our cities. That is not like them. I believe this means one of our rivals must have a city not far to the east that they targetted. I strongly suggest that we send several warriors in that direction to meet our neighbors, as soon as possible.

Originally posted by eyrei
I noticed that the barbarians that ambushed our warriors did not come to sack our cities. That is not like them. I believe this means one of our rivals must have a city not far to the east that they targetted. I strongly suggest that we send several warriors in that direction to meet our neighbors, as soon as possible.
Excellent evaluation Eyrei. I concur that this should be investigated.

Originally posted by Eyrei
Agreed. Though the cabinet will probably have to vote on rule. It is dangerously close to a change in the constitution.
Definitely not intended to be a change or infringement on the constitution. It's simply the default foreign policy for this administration.

Originally posted by Cyc
there will be no time for a popular vote. as the option to or not to raze a captured city pops up with the military advisor, saving and waiting will not be an option. a general consensus prior to the start of the game and a quick consensus of the cabinet members present at the game will have to do.
There should be time. It's unlikely that we will meet a civ, declare war (or have war declared) and be in a position to raze a city in one turn. Anything else gives time for discussion. The people have made their desires very clear about razing cities so the default policy must be that razing is forbidden. If a military campaign is planned where a razing is necessary then it must be discussed and debated (and approved) in the planning stages. This policy will prevent atrocities fomented by anger and battlelust.

Originally posted by eyrei
I noticed that the barbarians that ambushed our warriors did not come to sack our cities. That is not like them. I believe this means one of our rivals must have a city not far to the east that they targetted. I strongly suggest that we send several warriors in that direction to meet our neighbors, as soon as possible.

My thought exactly.

But shouldn't they have gone for the Closest city. Our city must have been the closest one though...

Originally posted by Grey Fox
My thought exactly.

But shouldn't they have gone for the Closest city. Our city must have been the closest one though... Or they must be heading for the nearest unit. Meaning there's an AI unit nearing us I think.

Originally posted by Grey Fox
But shouldn't they have gone for the Closest city. Our city must have been the closest one though...
Or the least defended city?

I suggest that we should send offensive troops in the early period, to look for barbarians, ad fight them for money and for battle experience.

*Salutes*

Originally posted by das
I suggest that we should send offensive troops in the early period, to look for barbarians, ad fight them for money and for battle experience.At the moment, we are expanding aggressively to fill out our environs. We don't have offensive troops yet. The plan now is to pump out warriors and upgrade these to immortals later. For the moment, we'll have to rely on them to take care of the occasional barb uprising. ;)

EDIT - You can pretty much ignore this post completely. It was a failed attempt at some drama, nothing more. The turn went well.

------

Um... General... some er... good news. We've been exploring, and, well... we've made contact with another civ.

:eek:

"On OUR continent???! What tribute did they give us?"

Well sir, they offered us ten gold and six gold for Iron Working.

:mad:

But we held out! We got knowledge of how to make walls and earthen pots and hieroglyphics and cool stuff like that General!

:(

The President was away, so they pushed on further than normal. They settled 'near' fresh water. Not on it sir, near it. Hopelessly burying gold so we'll NEVER ever see it. Sure they could have taken the fresh water, hills with gold and hills with IRON but they liked this spot. Or they could have gone two steps north and founded on a RIVER, *FIVE* flood plains and a cattle, but uh... not sure why again why they didn't pick that...

:cry:

Well... the other advisors were somewhat concerned about giving away a critical, life changing tech like iron working. But in the end it came down to something like this:
"We are making our niehbors strong"
"So? We are making them like us."

:eek: :mad:

"LIKE US??!?!?!?!!!!?!?!!?!?" The General swore like a sailor, started hurling furniture across the room, and beat the messenger soundly about the head and buttocks.

Bruised and bloody, the messenger tried to find something to soothe the General. "Sir (cough) don't worry, they've come up with a military target and have started building ONE military unit among the four cities"

:eek:

It's ok sir, they built a spearman to defend us at Eyr, we don't need to be afraid!

:mad: *(*@#@#$@#% { sounds of bones breaking, furniture previously merely thrown about, now going through glass plate windows, ear piercing screams, much ugliness... }

As he left the room, he be heard to say, amongst the muttering, something about 'gather the other generals and birds', 'war room', 'shoving immortal iron up Abe's...{garbled}', and 'manifest destiny'. He also mentioned something about 'where are my brass knuckles, I clearly need to go have some 'diplomacy' with my other department heads!'

: hammer :

Adjutant to General Charis, who was unavailable for further comment.

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
We don't have offensive troops yet. . ;)
We can say that all we want but if our neighbors get angry.....

Originally posted by Charis
As he left the room, he be heard to say, amongst the muttering, something about 'gather the other generals and birds', 'war room', 'shoving immortal iron up Abe's...{garbled}', and 'manifest destiny'. He also mentioned something about 'where are my brass knuckles, I clearly need to go have some 'diplomacy' with my other department heads!'

: hammer :

Adjutant to General Charis, who was unavailable for further comment.

If you look at the log, you'll see that we made many comments about making the Science guys happy and ticking off the military.

Uh oh, do I hear a coup d'etat starting?

OR the general could have gotten down off his horse and joined the other men in the first hand governing of his troops....

Originally posted by Cyc
there will be no time for a popular vote.
Thats straying from the Constitution

Originally posted by Charis

The President was away, so they pushed on further than normal. They settled 'near' fresh water. Not on it sir, near it. Hopelessly burying gold so we'll NEVER ever see it. Sure they could have taken the fresh water, hills with gold and hills with IRON but they liked this spot. Or they could have gone two steps north and founded on a RIVER, *FIVE* flood plains and a cattle, but uh... not sure why again why they didn't pick that...



That city has been designated as a settler factory for the forseeable future. It will not get anywhere near to size 6 for quite some time, and therefore will not need an aqueduct or access to fresh water. It was constructed on the gold because that will allow us to gain some of the benefit of the gold while this city does not have the manpower to work that area. I believe we only lose 1 gold from that square because we built on top of it.

Anyway, maybe the military advisor should join us next time if he does not agree with the actions of his civilian counterparts.

Ok, I seem to have gone overboard with the "in character" nature of my post above. Charis thought the turn went fairly well, but the General avatar seems to have stepped on some toes.
:confused:

Chances are slim to none I'll make any of the chats because of the time it's at and my schedule. Then again, I didn't think they were that important.

I thought the forum was the means for deciding most things, not the chat (which I took more to be a live reporting) and was a little surprised to see several actions taken that seemed to counter decisions made on the forum. The reactions of "other departments" not present were correctly gauged by some present, and it seemed more of a "they're not here approach" was taken then a "hmmm, you're right, he clearly didn't want to see xyz, let's not do that"

(Examples: If the big goal is Great Library, why on earth are we giving a dime for techs? Why are we selling Iron Working for Rome to make legionairres? Why did we build a spearman despite agreement by Mil dept and Grey Fox not to? Might not it have been a good idea to stop a few turns earlier and assimilate the vast new info- 5 civs, knowing what techs they have and what they don't, knowing where iron is, seems like a good point for discussion)

Or maybe I'm missing something, or misunderstanding 'Democracy' game ... ?
Charis

Originally posted by Charis
Ok, I seem to have gone overboard with the "in character" nature of my post above. Charis thought the turn went fairly well, but the General avatar seems to have stepped on some toes.
:confused:

Chances are slim to none I'll make any of the chats because of the time it's at and my schedule. Then again, I didn't think they were that important.

I thought the forum was the means for deciding most things, not the chat (which I took more to be a live reporting) and was a little surprised to see several actions taken that seemed to counter decisions made on the forum. The reactions of "other departments" not present were correctly gauged by some present, and it seemed more of a "they're not here approach" was taken then a "hmmm, you're right, he clearly didn't want to see xyz, let's not do that"

(Examples: If the big goal is Great Library, why on earth are we giving a dime for techs? Why are we selling Iron Working for Rome to make legionairres? Why did we build a spearman despite agreement by Mil dept and Grey Fox not to? Might not it have been a good idea to stop a few turns earlier and assimilate the vast new info- 5 civs, knowing what techs they have and what they don't, knowing where iron is, seems like a good point for discussion)

Or maybe I'm missing something, or misunderstanding 'Democracy' game ... ?
Charis

We sold iron working to the romans because they were going to get it from someone else on the next turn, because everyone else had it. The reason we are attempting to keep up in technology, is because the Great Library will not be completed for many, many turns, if at all. The reason we did not stop when we started meeting civs was because we had barely gotten started. According to the Duck of Flanders, the civ2 game went at a painfully slow pace because of this. I cannot think of any way that we countermanded any decisions that were made on the forum. Yes, some of the actions we took were contrary to certain citizens opinions, but it is not possible to please everyone. As far as tech trading, we stuck pretty closely to the goals presented by the trade department, even though they did not have a representative there until the very end. Keep in mind that at the beginning, we would have to stop everytime we discovered new territory , if we stuck to closely to what is decided on the forums. Once the area is fully explored, it will be much easier to make exact decisions before the turns are played. This will probably occur after the next session. Also, keep in mind that far more exploration is being done than is normally necessary, and the best exploration units are those that are produced most cheaply. The spearmen produced in Eyr was built because it was not growing fast enough to build a settler quite yet, and we already had plenty of scouting warriors in the are. I'm not really sure why we are not supposed to build spearmen, though. I guess I 'll read over the military thread again.

I also strongly suggest that each department make sure it has a representative present during these chats. Not so much to make sure the person playing does what he/she is supposed to do, but to make sure he knows what he is supposed to do. I realize now that I probably should not have traded iron working according to the trade department. However, had I not traded iron working, that would be about the only technology we had right now. Rather than researching writing en route to the Great Library, we would have just started on alphabet. General edicts are not good enough, and to some degree the person playing has to react to the situation. Again, each department should have a representative at each chat to inform the person playing of what their departments view is on the situation.

maybe you are charis. but then again maybe you and your parents had a discussion in which they told you how to drive their car (as opposed to taking you out on the road and teaching you)and afterwards gave you the keys and said good luck. who knows.

the man in the presidents chair has the wheel. he is the ONLY one who gets to see the map. you know how civ3 jumps back and forth across the screen. you know how quickly foriegn units appear out of the blue, etc, etc, etc.

sometimes it is difficult (read=talking softly now) for the leaders to get a complete picture of what's going on. Even if we think we know the situation at hand, it's still just a picture that we formulated in our head. besides the President, you have other leaders, the moderator, and walk-in citizens throwing comments and suggestions in constantly. i personally have to repeat my questions two or three times. then i'm lucky if i get answered.

describe and discuss is the way to proceed thru this game, kinda like D&D. but it's not like that when you get down there on the killing floor. i personally read all the text stating how we will not trade iron working to a neighbor. (all the other points too) but after a while you begin to feel invisible because there is too much chaos. on wednesday, i just threw my hands up in the air and sat back. i will not start jumping up and down yelling like some ass.

please come and show us the proper way to address every situation in the appropriate manner at the appropriate time, with skill and cunning. grab a laptop and spend some time at your desk or a late lunch or whatever....

I say we quickly build some barracks and Immortals to start conquering our neighbours. Expansion is a must and expansion by war gives us the opportunity to gain leaders. IMHO we should attack one civ at the time and use diplomacy to form alliances with the rest of our neighbours against that civ, to make sure we will not have to fight on mulitple fronts. Hopefully our wise military leader can persuade the other members of the cabinet to do this. :)

I agree with Mr.Spice we should build up our military quickly when the AI's have undeffended cities.

The domestic department hereby offers the military department the oppurtunity to place the next settler we build in a place it feels would make a good training ground for veteran units. This city will build a temple or library, and then a barracks, at which point it will produce military units ad infinitum.

The office of the military denies rumors of uproar over recent events at the military department. An overzealous Adjutant gave the press a false report both to scare our foes and to bring dishonor to the General. In fact the General was on a day cruise at the time, thinking the situation was one of peace and tranquility. Said adjutant has been fired.


---
Translation: It was a failed attempt at drama. I thought the turn went well and almost all decisions just fine. The chat transcript suggested "you better look out for the military's reaction" so I got a little mischievous and wrote a piece that played into those expectations. Not sure what I was thinking. I'm currently evaluating whether I have time to continue in this 'position' and do a good job. More on that later.

:mutant:
Charis

I thought it was good "acting," and you should continue, but put a warning that it was just humour on any future "in character" posts.

If you thought that was drama, you should read Charis' post in the Utopia of Babylon SG. :lol:

While attempting a diplomacy victory, he convinced us all that he nuked all the worlds major powers and started a nuclear winter!
:eek:
Had us all going for a day too. :lol:

He is a gifted storyteller, and not always to be taken literally. Try to read between the lines. ;)

So, Charis, am I some kind of "lackey" in this War Department now? :lol:
KD sent me a PM informing me I have been drafted.

My modem is currently kaput, but should have a new one in a few days.
See you then.

-joespaniel:smoke:

Originally posted by joespaniel
If you thought that was drama, you should read Charis' post in the Utopia of Babylon SG. :lol:

While attempting a diplomacy victory, he convinced us all that he nuked all the worlds major powers and started a nuclear winter!
:eek:
Had us all going for a day too. :lol:Yep, that was a classic. :lol: This guy was telling us not to attack, keep to our word, not to plan for a first strike, keep to the peaceful theme of the SG and then at the very end, posted in the guise of a story that he had nuked everyone and a nuclear winter had set in..... :rolleyes: :lol:

OT, we need to send a rep for that chat? Don't look at me - I'm in Singapore and the chat is on an unearthly hour for me.

I opinate that the game is working well. Things get moving. And if things didn't work out, well, the citizenry will throw them out come the next elections. ;) That's the way it shld be, as in real life.

Seems like the people are hungering for an attack on old Abe. We shld get down to planning now, o mighty leader Charis?

I've been able to make the last game, and should be able to make a majority of them, and I tried to look out for our interests. So.... I apply for the position of a Military Department spokesman during the turn chat.

So, Knight-Dragon, do you accept my Application?

I could be available to become Minister of the Navy if you like... Please.;)

i would propose electing a general especially for the future conflict against america.
it should be obligate for this general to be present in all turn-chats during the future crisis.
he should also be responsible for working our a war-strategy (necessary units, where to place, which goals do we reach how...)
and presenting it to the public BEFORE the war really starts.
i believe we still have some time to war, so we should be prepared for it (not only with units, but also organizing it!).

Originally posted by disorganizer
i would propose electing a general especially for the future conflict against america.
it should be obligate for this general to be present in all turn-chats during the future crisis.
he should also be responsible for working our a war-strategy (necessary units, where to place, which goals do we reach how...)
and presenting it to the public BEFORE the war really starts.
i believe we still have some time to war, so we should be prepared for it (not only with units, but also organizing it!).

I believe the military leader may simply appoint someone to do this if he cannot be present at the chats.

We do in fact need a representative who can make more chats than I or KD can. On looking over the turn chat, Falcon seemed to be asking a lot of good questions, showing the same concern over selling military techs, but in the end realizing, it was the right thing to do. In fact, if you're familiar with recent events, we just lost our top level Adjutant (court martial in fact). Thus...

The Military Department hereby appoints Falcon02 as the Regimental Adjutant of the Department of Defense, with the responsibility and authority of representing the interests of the Military (and Phoenatica) in turn chat.

Glad to have you on board Falcon :hammer:

Phoenix, thank you for your support and interest. Joespaniel is actually our resident Admiral, overseeing the interests of the Navy. At this time we have no further need for high level appointments. (There's just not that much to *do* :P ) We are glad for your interests in military matters, and look forward to input from fine soldiers such as yourself in discussion of matters of war. We welcome you to the discussion table here.

Given the huge number of civs we just met and the principle of manifest destiny, oh boy are we in for a lot of discussions! :D

In fact, I hope this afternoon to get the ball rolling some more on discussion of these events, both here in the Mil thread and in discussions with other cabinet members.

General Charis

PS A 'naval' commander would be in charge of ships, sailors and marines. However a 'navel' commander could be in charge of the rind of oranges, cleanliness of belly buttons, and the peels of other fruits with 'navels'. :lol: (An easy mistake to make, however, just thought it cute)

-- EDIT --
After posting, saw the other recent posts, and want to comment.

The constitution points out the role of the Military Leader:
"Make's [decisions] on military actions, defense, and (If war has been declared) war time actions. Reports military decisions to the President. Can override Governors on production issues during time of invasion. Takes over from the President in times of mobilization. (martial law)"

Under 'normal' conditions, the President considers the needs of the military along with all other needs of the country and makes his own decisions as to priority. Under 'normal' WAR conditions, he as Commander-in-Chief continues to lead the campaigns, and will (should) do so in a way consistent with the military decisions made by the department. Under 'mobilization' conditions, and only then, the mil leader at that time will in fact be playing the game out, and hopefully securing a peace and an end to martial law. So there is no need (or constitutional allowance) for a general to call the shots during a skirmish.

I am *not* a big fan however, of key decisions being made or changed during chat. That turns more into a setting where 'lobbying' wins over careful discussion and planning. Duck, if I'm wrong on the role of chat, please do correct me though! I might be the one with the wrong impression here. In any case, having advice available, from ALL departments, during chat, is a big help for the President. So we have appointed Falcon02 as the representative of military interests. This should not be construed as a general leading the forces or taking over during this time - at least that is not how intended.

That does raise an interesting point - should there be a General present, IN CHAT, who is considered to be at the front line of each of the active fronts. We might be in a war with three enemies, and it would make sense to get help making calls like: "It's one sword left vs one spear, do we try to take it now or wait a turn for the catapults to arrive?" These are *TACTICAL* decisions, not strategic ones, and are questions that only arise (much less find answers) dynamically during the game itself.

At present we are lucky to have a President well versed in the art-of-war and do not fear for any tactical decisions made in his hands. If he wishes to have a representative for a given theatre of action present to help on tactics, I would support that as well.

the idea behind my general post was also that we will have some more citizens who a "honored by our country" with for example city-naming.
after a successful strike we could for example name the next city after this general... and put up a statue in our capitol
so i think this guy should not be one of our ministers

Thanks, Charis. I will do my best to represent the Military Dept. in the turn chats. It is an Honor and a privilege.

Military Analysis - General Charis

We have an ENORMOUS task in front of us. The subjugation of that which is
ours, the great continent of Phoenatica. We have just met not one, or two,
but FOUR civilizations who dare to compete for OUR resources. They will
be dealt with, as trespassers, not friends, but this will take time.

At present we have...

No iron connected.
No iron particularly close to a current city.
No barracks.
Not much defense.
No attacker stronger than a warrior.

We will NOT be starting a war in the next 10 turns :P

Key sites soon:
1) Spot 'A' on the Pggar's nice map, catching three wheat AND a cattle,
AND on a river. It's a must have spot. At distance 11 it's on the
fringe of productivity. It's a settler farm once irrigated.
2) Iron Hills - the spot directly (one square) south of the Iron in the
Hills SE of Shailonegha. It's got good defense on a hill, it's ON a
river square, directly adjacent to the iron, adjacent to a flood plains
for irrigation and growth, AND catches the incense. This seems our best
spot for hooking up iron.
3) Not a bad spot: The plain grassland near Khatova (2 SE then 2 South)
which has fresh water, a wheat, iron, and gold, all within city limits.
Distance to capital is 9. The hill one NE is good too, missing the wheat)
4) Coastal hill south of horses, SE of Fox Next. It's got coast, horses,
two spice, two fish, and two gold (!!)
5) The plains spot 4 squares due NE of spot 3 is
strategically good, with two dyes, gold and iron, but so low food it
is stuck as size 3.

There are other key areas (like the South is neglected here), but three
of the above (1, 2 OR 3, 4) seem particularly important.

Don't be *too* concerned with having a lot of cities or falling behind in
cities. We will *capture* a slew of them, once we have a solid production
capability to kick off our first campaign.

We do we need before war starts?
- At least one Barracks (connected to Iron, see next point)
- Iron ONLINE, and connected to a city with barracks to upgrade warriors.
- Nine immortals.
- At LEAST Two cities that can commit to nothing but cranking out troops.
- Would recommend getting Fox Nest (or some other low corruption town)
at 10 shield/turn level, *WITH* barracks, and cranking out one warrior per turn.
I like to think of the warrior as a "proto-immortal" That warrior will be sent
to the barracks at Iron town. It will crank out spears, at a slower rate.
This strat cranks out one vet immortal PER TURN, enough to go kick some butt.
- At this stage do NOT connect iron town to the capital or other cities!

Wonders?
Normally on a Monarch game I would vote strongly to go to build a wonder.
Given FOUR civs (at least) on our continent which we plan to take over, I
would for this particular game vote for 'building' NO wonders. Yet we will own
any wonders built on this continent. Also, the Military Department sees other
plans for Grey Fox for the forseeable future.

Sci/Tech? We are AHEAD of where I expected to be, with regards to tech.
I must advocate turning *OFF* research to writing, and in fact going 0%
research at least until the end of the first military campaign. We can
buy writing far, far cheaper than being the first researcher of it. It's also
not clear if we want to BUILD the Great Library or conquer it. (see above)

* The tech race will go fast, if we don't move toward total mobilization of
effort for upcoming conflicts, we will lose the Immortal edge at Feudalism.

Other actions?
IMMEDIATELY switch Fox Nest to Barracks, then onto constant proto-immortal
production. Found Iron city ASAP (spot 2 or 3) and whip a barracks.

Targets?
See next post, I wanted to get this one posted. (In short, Abe)

General Charis

Disorganizer wants to know what my official title is for the census. I think your suggestion is a little long and over the top. He wants a relatively short title for me, to fit in the Census. I suggested "Defence Rep. for Chats." However, cyc seems to feel that I should be another Deputy since I will likely be making decisions for us.

True enough...

Deputy is accurate, you can go with that. ("Adjutant" is the type of deputy.)

btw, I hope the thoughts behind our requests, and short-term plans, are clear from the mil.analysis post, so you can help out Eyrie or Grey Fox on the upcoming turn.

Thanks again,
General Charis

yeah the plan is clear. In chat we determined I'm another Deputy, with Duck's approval. Do you have a preferance as to which iron city we should build first?

charis - i would like to share my version of the city placement. in reference to your statement, i would swap the priorities for #2 and #3 and move each slightly. the 1st iron city should be where you want #3, but moved 1 tile NE, to be on a hill. the road from fox nest to khatovar could then be extended to that spot. the second iron city (your #2) should be moved 2 tiles S to catch the 2 flood plains. As, it will take a lot longer to build a road to this city in the hills, it should be the second iron city. IMHO. and of course we're in agreement of spot "A" - PDX.

edit: i was talking about the two flood plains close to khatovar, (just outside khatovar's expanded borders), but i hadn't realized that two tiles south of the iron was also a flood plain. i don't feel as strongly about this placement now because of the disease factor. but because it would be a better placement as far as cramping shailo and PDX, plus getting the other two flood plains, i would still place 2 S of the iron. we will get the iron and incense when we expand. i also believe we should have placed the eastern iron city first.

Currently Fox's Nest is building the Pyramids in preperation for the Great Library, so it's not a Warrior factory at the monent. In fact, we have no Warrior factories yet. The majority who were on tonight felt that it was a little to early for that. Expand, THEN conquer. Also, the placement of the next city (2 on Charis' previous map) was put up for disscussion for the next turn. Cyc felt that we needed to get a floodplain in range to help it grow. Shailonegha and newly founded PDX are building Barracks, but so far there are no plans to hurry them, and no spare citizens to do it.

So simply put, the plan at the moment of Eyrei and Sike is to ease into war, and not make it a priority.

I hope the prez is currently cranking out settlers, otherwise the AI is going to eat up that real estate, and damn quick.

Ofcourse, what do I know, Im just the :blush: navel expert. :p :lol:

I have limited use of a modem, whens the chat?

[For the record, the General is concerned we are neglecting the duties of our destiny in holding off the inevitable, and does not think the path of wonder building instead of military building is correct, but... listens to the voice of the people, and offers these thoughts]

Cyc, thanks for responding on the dotmap ideas. I see now that Shailo is ON TOP of an incense, so waiting 45 turns for
it to expand borders cost us trading opportunity not internal happiness.
Actually, not even that since there are no roads to trading partners
anyway :P The reason for the '#2' spot were to get the incense, to get
the iron withOUT having to expand, and be on a river.

One square south (two from the iron) would be very bad, as the iron wouldn't
even be in city radius, we would be on the disease ridden floods, AND we
would lose the extra bonus by settling on it instead of next to it. Now
one square SE, on the hill, catches the iron, loses the incense, catches two
extra flood plain squares, but loses the river. Moving one due east stays on
river, catches ONE flood square, and increases overlap with PDX.

Actually, one other nice advantage to one square SE. The borders will 'meld'
with Shailonegha so that the iron will be within borders WITHOUT us having
to expand first! (excellent)

So I concur, 1 square more SE from where settler is standing is a great spot.
The only downside is an aqueduct but the great extra food will compensate.

Moving site 3 one spot NE is do-able, and has some advantages. The initial
problem is it misses the wheat and it has low food. But there's a MUCH
bigger problem. It's no longer on the coast, and cannot build a harbor!
It's doomed for lack of food. Where I suggested, it can reach (with harbor)
size 14 or higher. One NE on the hill, it's a size 6 city. I would therefore
stay where I suggested it.

Important: The iron worker getting a road up -- have him go one square SE
next for a road, NOT south! We DON'T want iron hooked up to the rest of the
civ, just one city with a barracks. That's the warrior-to-immortal training
center.

Hmm... initial reaction to the "go slower" approach rather than a much
stronger push for war soon... it's not striking me as the right move,
at all. Our 'expansion' would be much more rapid capturing American cities
than by our own, but, I can see the other points, and in my own games almost
always play "expand first, then war". But I don't normally play Persians,
and I'm would not make that same choice here.

But... if that's where we're going, I'll get on board, and try to help
that path with the following points:
- Get (even whip) a granary in PDX, NOT a barracks first. That is our
FOOD town, not our troop town, production is too low! With us NOT going
for pyramids (or losing if we try) and with as low food as we have, we're
going to need granaries. PDX should be the first place to get a granary.
- Temple or library in Khatovar - to get the extra flood plain.
Perhaps after one more settler to go for area 4 (horses)
- Switch Eyr to Barracks immediately, we do NOT really want 'regular'
immortals running around.
- My initial thought was to found some city, any city, South of Fox Nest.
But if the AI settles there, that close, it will just flip anyway, and
the area just South/SW is so rugged.
- Get Shailo off barracks, onto library (if we get literature soon) or
even granary. Or... a settler and settle those horses due West (or the
horses in 'spot 4')
- If we're going to go for a wonder in Fox Nest... GET A WORKER OVER THERE
It's on fresh water and can grow, start irrigating, mining, the whole bit
- Those spices and horses and fish near 4 are just looking more yummy as I look at them. After founding Ironcity 1 SE of where settler is now, get another settler built and over there soon, methinks.

See? I'm even cancelling barracks orders. Either we build up infrastructure
to the max, or we prepare for war to the max. Don't go hodgepodge :P One does not 'ease' into war, one goes nuts building the *infrastructure* to crank troops later (including workers, barracks, expanding borders to get best squares), or one cranks the troops now. Any place you would now be building a non-vet warrior, make it a barracks or worker, for example.

To those wondering why no spears? We can make TWO immortals, with defense 2, for the shield cost of one spear. And we can delay the cash cost to convert warrior->immortal until needed. Where/when we will want spears is when we start capturing cities and need to garrison. Even then we might continue with idea of: build in non-iron town (spear) and upgrade in iron/saltpeter town (pikes/muskets) for a huge shield savings.

To those wondering, why do I no longer like a wonder / GL as a goal in this game? With SO MANY civs in contact, the research rate will **FLY**. We may literally be learning education before the GL is complete. For the same shield cost, we can amass an army to capture the wonder of our choice, including Sun Tzu and Leo (and on this map, capturing Pyramids when they're built would be a huge boost as well)

To those wondering why I'm strongly suggesting 0% science- again, the AI's together are learning and swapping tech so fast, we're not anywhere near in a position to pull ahead, and the only question is do you want to buy techs at cost x, or research them yourself at cost 2*x ?

Here's wishing the best to the nation of Phoenatica!
General Charis

The "Iron Hills" city( do you want that to be its name) will be placed one square SE, as this was my reaction as well. Eyr will produce a worker ( I think it is currently working on one), then a temple and then a barracks. I realized this as I was pondering our situation at the local bar. It will make a good warrior factory. The worker is destined to improve the area around the capital.

I will figure out a good way to isolate the rest of the empire from the iron, though I am wary of pumping all of our funds into upgrade costs. I also think the Great Library is no longer the best wonder for us, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Shailo was put on barracks to be switched to something else later, as there were no other good options. In PDX, my desire is to build the barracks (without rushing), then rush build a library (we should have literature by then), and then possibly a courthouse after a settler or two, or maybe some workers. The barracks is not to help it produce units, but to supply a healing area, and aid its defense during the war.

> The "Iron Hills" city( do you want that to be its name) will be
> placed one square SE, as this was my reaction as well.

Fherris, or Ferris Bueller :D 'Iron Hills' would be too dry.

> Eyr will produce a worker ( I think it is currently working on
> one), then a temple and then a barracks. I realized this as I
> was pondering our situation at the local bar. It will make a
> good warrior factory. The worker is destined to improve the
> area around the capital.

Spot on! It's currently working on warrior, which was the concern, so a swap to worker would be super.

> I will figure out a good way to isolate the rest of the empire
> from the iron, though I am wary of pumping all of our funds into
> upgrade costs.

Isolation is pretty simple if you just don't connect Ferris to the rest of the road network. About upgrade funds, this is a good point, let me take a look at the math as I've assumed it to be minor so far. (Doing this as I post, unsure what conclusion will be...)

The cost for upgrade is 2*shield_difference, so 40 gold in this case. If Leo's landed in our lap tomorrow that would be 20.

Total shield output of the nation: 14 shields. For the whole nation. Even if we could get those all in one city it would take THREE turns to make ONE immortal. Income from cities is 13 gpt, which is, alas, no better. But with slight shifting that can be made 17 gpt (choosing some 2-gold tiles instead of 1-shield tiles). Also, there are other ways to earn gold (selling lux), and... as we get more roads, our income will rise higher than our shield output. Finally, the 'homebody' warriors don't need to be actually upgraded until there is a homeland threat, saving or deferring the cost. If harbors ever get built, there are a ton of good-gold, zero-shield tiles to work.

Bottom line- the cash IS more of a burden than I thought (I had a 20 gold, post-Leo value in mind), but this approach may still account for a decent number of immortals (although not all)

> Shailo was put on barracks to be switched to something else
> later, as there were no other good options.
Ah, thought that might be the case.

> In PDX, my desire is to build the barracks (without rushing),
> then rush build a library (we should have literature by then),
> and then possibly a courthouse after a settler or two, or maybe
> some workers. The barracks is not to help it produce units, but
> to supply a healing area, and aid its defense during the war.

If war is soon I *love* the idea of rax in PDX. But if not, a granary, courthouse, or settler would "speed us up" a lot better. Actually, a worker to irrigate those lovely wheat and cattle might be an excellent choice.

By the way...

WE HAVE CITY GOVERNERS ON???? I just clicked on a tile in Eyr and found this to be true? An errant preference setting, or is this (cough) intended?! :lol:

Good issues and clarifications, thanks,
General Charis

Originally posted by Falcon02
In fact, we have no Warrior factories yet. The majority who were on tonight felt that it was a little to early for that. Expand, THEN conquer.

Thanks for passing this important piece of information on. We must convince these people of the urgency to build a task force and start conquering. If we "expand then conquer" we will, as Charis so wisely pointed out, loose our immortal advantage. His plan of building warriors and upgrading to immortals is an excellent one indeed and must be initialized right away. If it is done properly we can expand much faster by war than by peace. As for building wonders we are in no position to build them from scratch. That is what we have great leaders for and we won´t get any of those unless we start fighting.

In short: If we begin conquering now we will soon dominate our continent and become the super power of the world. If we postpone any wars until we have decent developed cities we will fall behind our opponents in all aspects and become a third rate power in the shadow of more powerful neighbours.

Edit: Spelling mistakes

I agree with Mr. Spice and Charis' reservations on holding off on war. The citizen response has been almost wholeheartedly for early forced expansion. I'll hold an official poll in case there has been a large change of heart but I'm pretty sure the people want to be fighting right now, not building.

I think the time has passed to start thinking about a quick war. If we're only now beginning to prepare for war then it is too late. We'd best build up some strength for the big war that will inevitably come.

Our Military leader has wisely pointed out that we (as a nation) must decide whether to pursue war or peace then we must put ALL our efforts in that direction. A maxim of war is 'divide and conquer'. Dividing our efforts may well lead to us being conquered.

Whether we chose peace or war, I think building a wonder from scratch is a mistake.

Does anyone know if Old Abe has a supply of horses? Does anyone know America's shield output? We must not be too confident about our future Immortals. We may find that they are vulnerable to hit and run tactics by American horsemen.

I respectfully disagree with Donsig. We are right now on the verge of having an excellent force for a limited offensive. Connect the iron, promote a half dozen warriors and we have a force that can sweep through several American cities. With full war production and strategic alliances we can begin a war in a few turns that will net us the bulk of the American lands. Yes, it will be a longer war overall than it would have been if we had specifically built for conquest, but it will be successful. Don't forget that our first battle will launch us into a Golden Age. We can ride that to a crest of power and smash the Americans.

Originally posted by donsig
I think the time has passed to start thinking about a quick war. If we're only now beginning to prepare for war then it is too late. We'd best build up some strength for the big war that will inevitably come.It's too early to tell IMHO. We need more info on just how big/strong/equipped America is right now. They may be weaker than us for all we know. ;)

Whether we chose peace or war, I think building a wonder from scratch is a mistake.Shld have cont pumping out settlers and warriors but then that's a decision that've been take, so we'll just have to live with it. Let's move on.

Does anyone know if Old Abe has a supply of horses? Does anyone know America's shield output? We must not be too confident about our future Immortals. We may find that they are vulnerable to hit and run tactics by American horsemen.[/B]Yeah, swordsmen, backed by horse, can easily picked off Immortals while they're on the move. They're slow and def is a bare 2. One has had some experience crushing a few Immortal rushes with said units. :) But I don't think the AI is that smart.

It's best if we sent some spears along with the Immortals so that these can take the dmg while leaving the Immortals to arrive at the enemy city whole. Better yet, if we can send a few horse as further back-ups.

Originally posted by Charis
[B
WE HAVE CITY GOVERNERS ON???? I just clicked on a tile in Eyr and found this to be true? An errant preference setting, or is this (cough) intended?! :lol:

[/B]

We have governors on!!!!! Wasn't me......

Knight-Dragon: It doesn't matter if America is weaker than us now. We have nothing to attack them with! The question is, will they be weaker than us when we have a force in place. The longer it takes us to prepare for war, the stronger all our enemies grow.

Shaitan: 'Limited offenses' can easily turn in to long, drawn out struggles. That is the danger we face here. Knight-Dragon has already pointed out that we do not know America's strength. Without knowing that we have no idea how a limited offensive would pan out.

The problem is, while we're working in the dark how do we proceed? The wisest post thus far comes from Charis:


Either we build up infrastructure to the max, or we prepare for war to the max. Don't go hodgepodge :P One does not 'ease' into war, one goes nuts building the *infrastructure* to crank troops later (including workers, barracks, expanding borders to get best squares), or one cranks the troops now. Any place you would now be building a non-vet warrior, make it a barracks or worker, for example.

I don't sense a groundswell of support for a war (either in the public sector or in the government). Since the commitment is not there we should not contemplate war now. The worst thing we could do is a half-hearted attempt at war.

Originally posted by Charis
[B> Eyr will produce a worker ( I think it is currently working on
> one), then a temple and then a barracks. I realized this as I
> was pondering our situation at the local bar. It will make a
> good warrior factory. The worker is destined to improve the
> area around the capital.

Spot on! It's currently working on warrior, which was the concern, so a swap to worker would be super.

[/B]

I just realized why Eyr is producing a warrior. Because it was not growing quite fast enought to build a worker immediately, I intended to build a warrior to act as military police while it bagan on temple. I think this is still a good plan, as once it builds a barracks, it can grow and produce units with most of its citizens happy.

We dhould attack our nearest and weakest neighbours, and quickly! However first we will need to prepare for war. I haven't had a detailed look at the map jet, but here goes... We should find out where them all important resources that we need are then we need to attack them (obviously) and then make peace (we need to hold them- we can attack again later). However we should prepare for the futre, we will defenetly be needing some aluminium, coal, oil, uranium, etc. So as we cannot see these resources jet we should rapidly expand (through conquest) to ensure that we, not our neighboures (the infidells!), get hold of them. Remember that a short war now can stop us from having to have a huge war in the futre that we may not be able to win. Be hay I don't have an official role in the military (or anywhere) jet so what do I know!?:lol:

Seeing as how we are the Persians, there should be no debate on whether or not we make war.

The only debate should be when. I say now is already too damn long.

Lets go! :ninja: :hammer:

6 Immortals and America will be no more!

6 Immortals and America will be no more!

Yeah, but making them one at a time will take awhile.

BTW, we don't even have iron yet.

There's a poll out there asking whether we should fight now or build infrastructure. It is misleading. The 'yes' line says we have immortals, let's use 'em or something to that effect. What we have is iron working. What we don't have yet is iron, barracks or immortals. What everone else has is horseback riding...

btw:
we are NOT the persians, we are the Phoenaticans!
we have a democracy here so we should debatte about it.
and most polls brought up exactly the point that we definitely do not want to be warmongers! we make war if it is NECESSARY for our GOALS. not just for fun. and making war IS a major decission which definitely NEEDS debatte.

we make war if it is NECESSARY for our GOALS. not just for fun.

Hmmm.... I must be in the wrong place. My goal is FUN!:lol:

My goal is also to win. I haven't seen any polls about what our goals are. Think I'll take a look at the thread about type of victory. Maybe some clues will be there.

I do recall hearing about the manifest destiny mandate. If that is one of our goals I don't see how we'll acheive it without war.

you can read the thread of the foreign-dept. for example, where are many posts about when to go to war... i believe we will not go to war just for fun...
btw:
if you look on the power-meter of the game we are relatively weak. our economy will not support a war against a possibly bigger neighbor.
we should also take care that we dont get involved in a war and forget about the open space betwenn and around some of our cities, which will soon be taken by the other civs if we dont care.

we maybe are not as strong as it seems to be!

btw2:
im also pro the anti-american campaign as long as our immortals are up to date, but i think there should be some building first, maybe immortal-upgrade and building up a big army and in parallel to this building more cities for our culture, money and science.

We are weak on the power-meter because we are not building a military force.

I am a proponent of manifest destiny and thought that doctrine was to be put into effect by the policy makers. I thought that securing this continent for OUR nation was our goal. If it is our goal we will only accomplish it by force or arms. We do not seem to be moving in that direction.

EDIT: I went through the foreign affairs thread and didn't see much about when to declare war. There's alot about when NOT to declare war. Also many contradictions. We believe in manifest destiny but we're not going to attack any one. We're going to be honorable, but hey, the Romans are weaker than we are so we can try blackmailing them. While we're on the subject of extorsion, we do not give in to anyone's demands - unless standing up to the crooks will cause a war. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by donsig
I went through the foreign affairs thread and didn't see much about when to declare war. There's alot about when NOT to declare war. Also many contradictions. We believe in manifest destiny but we're not going to attack any one. We're going to be honorable, but hey, the Romans are weaker than we are so we can try blackmailing them. While we're on the subject of extorsion, we do not give in to anyone's demands - unless standing up to the crooks will cause a war. :rolleyes:

Ouch. I am wounded :(

Be fair Donsig. These are taken out of context and were from various parts of the thread as the Foreign Policy was evolving. The Policy was put into the first post and is updated as the thread evolves to avoid this sort of confusion.

I'm going to go pout now. :p

My comments about the foreign affairs thread were not meant as a put down of that dept. Please accept my apologies if that's how the statement comes across!

My comments did indeed come from various parts of the thread and I wasn't even paying attention to who said what.

I got away from my point, which was that the foreign affairs thread does not have a definitive stance on when to declare war. It offers guidelines for the proper way to go about entering a war but in general but nothing (yet) about preparing for a specific war.

The general impression I got from the thread is that foreign affairs opposes an aggressive war of conquest on our part. IMHO if we are to embrace manifest destiny then we have to go out there and purposely and intentionally kick some arse and the military and foreign affairs (and domestic) departments must all be on the same page.

If we're going to renounce manifest destiny (the direction foreign and domestic affairs seem to be taking) then we should do so openly so the military department can gear itself in that direction.

And I really don't want to hear the 'political' response: YES we believe in manifest destiny and we're working towards that but we have to fulfill that dream later.

I don't want to hear that because we are not working towards that goal right now!

I agree with donsig, if we don't take the offensive we will be behind the other nations. Once we "liberate" a few cities we should concentrate on creating a large military, both offenive and defensive, ground and naval, so we can accomplish our goals.

But I have to add that before we do ANY WAR, we MUST get defense in ALL of our cities, defended with VETERAN units and also preferably all cities have a barracks. Then we can continue as planned, and acquire territories. And once again, we NEED MORE UNITS!!:(

About War with America:

I call for war with them soon, but we need to research horses or get it from elsewhere so we can match up with fast moving troops. And they have swordsmen, we don't. Earlier, donsig suggested we make archers for the time. That could be worth our while, considering we don't have any iron hooked up and once we do immortals take time to produce. But, if we wait until immortals, America will be far-flung due to it's expansionist tendancies and we will not combat it effectively until much later, when our cities are capable of rapid production, which is roughly around the middle ages.

I personally can't decide on a path we should take.

I have seen repeated lamentations by the hawks among our citizenry that we do not even have iron hooked up. You should all know that we are about 3 turns away from having it hooked up to the entire empire. Charis believes we should not hook up the entire empire just yet, so that we can continue to produce the cheaper warriors, and then upgrade them.

On a side note, I realize that many of you are roleplaying, but the current administration has been dealt a good number of insulting remarks in the last few days. If you are roleplaying, that is fine, just make it known. I do not expect that the Domestic Leader get along with the various militant groups that have formed, but I do expect that we are polite to each other on a personal level.

This thread is for the military department to discuss strategic and tactical matters pertaining to the art of war. It is also a place of rational discussion and clarification of policy for the various leaders to discuss - each of their posts here have been lucid and valuable.

It is *NOT* for...

... deciding if or when to go to war. (NOT our call!)
... duplicating lobbying efforts of citizen groups. (other threads)
... stoking up the furnace of warmongery. (I'm a strategist, not a warmonger)
... internal attacks. (one loose cannon adjutant has already been courtmartialed for this)

There need be no more such posts in this thread.
Rest *ASSURED* I and the military department follow closely the thoughts and debates expressed in the War Church, Civil Defense board, and others with a direct interest in military matters, and we value the discussions in those threads.
I hope I need not say more on this matter.

On another point... there seems to be no disagreement that America is our most likely target. Our policies dictate there will be no declaration during a treaty, so we have (iirc) 14 turns before any action could occur. By that time we will have iron on line in a town with barracks, a second (or third?) barracks, another city or two, and hopefully a half-dozen upgraded immortals.

The real question to be debated is -- do we plan to
... start a major offensive campaign to "expand" by capture, with the goal of repeating against several civilizations before the advent of feudalism (the "Immorals rule" line of thinking)
... continue to build up at that point the infrastructure needed to wage war around the turn of the era (at present tech rate there is really no time to have more than one target subjugated before our immortals have finished their 'dominance') , or
... expand naturally, without war, maximizing infrastructure building, with minimum troop build-up, and switch to 'full military mode' only if attacked

Although there will be no 'action' for at least 14 turns, the decision on which of these paths has a big impact. If the first, we *must* switch Fox Nest off wonder to barracks, now, before the shields are wasted. If we do not, we do not even have the output for one warrior per turn adding up the whole nation (!!)
If the last choice, we build one barracks, two max, crank out workers and settlers and granaries and libraries and temples. If the middle path (not my favorite) we continue trying for GL/wonder, and split the rest of the limited production between warriors, and infrastructure.

THAT is the question, gentlemen, and that is what needs input, from all concerned parties.

Peace and Destiny,
General Charis

Originally posted by eyrei
I have seen repeated lamentations by the hawks among our citizenry that we do not even have iron hooked up. You should all know that we are about 3 turns away from having it hooked up to the entire empire. Charis believes we should not hook up the entire empire just yet, so that we can continue to produce the cheaper warriors, and then upgrade them.That's good to know. Now, do we have the money to upgrade warriors? We need more gold for each I think, since these are Immortals, not just ordinary swords.

On a side note, I realize that many of you are roleplaying, but the current administration has been dealt a good number of insulting remarks in the last few days. If you are roleplaying, that is fine, just make it known. I do not expect that the Domestic Leader get along with the various militant groups that have formed, but I do expect that we are polite to each other on a personal level.Where are these personal insults you're referring to? :confused: I hope you're not referring to me. Apologies in advance if I have stepped on anybody's toes. As far as I can see though, it's all just discussions, points and counterpoints. <shrugs>

Although truth to tell, really wondering if we're ever going to make it. :( Even a stack of Immortals is not that immortal against horse and swords now, esp when fighting in enemy territory.

A good solid post, Charis. :goodjob: Shld clarify things a bit. Preferably I'll rather have only members of the general staff post here and all general discussions move to normal threads. E.g. any concerned citizen can begin a new thread elsewhere to query on certain aspects of our military planning but this shld be the working thread for the military dept only; and we do have a lot of work ahead of us. ;)

Charis,

In reading your post I have gotten out of it only that this thread is only for cabinet members and such. I do hope I am wrong...

MIlitary threads should also deal with preparations, peactime military buildups and such, because the "military" doesn't just mean war, it is much more. You should revise your thinking of this thread, and rethink of the meaning of a militart discussion.

Ohwell

Originally posted by Charis
The real question to be debated is -- do we plan to
... start a major offensive campaign to "expand" by capture, with the goal of repeating against several civilizations before the advent of feudalism (the "Immorals rule" line of thinking)Let's take on the Americans first and then decide in the future. At this stage, we need more info before we can decide. The situation is always fluid and preset plans are always subject to chg. Let's keep our options open. ;)

... continue to build up at that point the infrastructure needed to wage war around the turn of the era (at present tech rate there is really no time to have more than one target subjugated before our immortals have finished their 'dominance') , orAfter we finished off the Americans. Then build up and develop and prepare for a major war with other inhabitants on the continent. We shld build the FP and develop a second prod zone, which can take awhile.

... expand naturally, without war, maximizing infrastructure building, with minimum troop build-up, and switch to 'full military mode' only if attackedWe're surrounded on all sides. We must try to secure one frontier; otherwise in the future, we may have to face a 2-front or 3-front war. Usually when the AI war on you, they will drag in others to fight you too.

Although there will be no 'action' for at least 14 turns, the decision on which of these paths has a big impact. If the first, we *must* switch Fox Nest off wonder to barracks, now, before the shields are wasted. If we do not, we do not even have the output for one warrior per turn adding up the whole nation (!!)
If the last choice, we build one barracks, two max, crank out workers and settlers and granaries and libraries and temples. If the middle path (not my favorite) we continue trying for GL/wonder, and split the rest of the limited production between warriors, and infrastructure.Agreed. We have no time for Wonder building now. Better to either push for units or settlers to found more cities.

Originally posted by Ohwell
Charis,

In reading your post I have gotten out of it only that this thread is only for cabinet members and such. I do hope I am wrong...

MIlitary threads should also deal with preparations, peactime military buildups and such, because the "military" doesn't just mean war, it is much more. You should revise your thinking of this thread, and rethink of the meaning of a militart discussion.

Ohwell The military dept needs a clear working thread to plan; that's not intersected by citizen comments. I support Charis in this. Otherwise this thread will be so cluttered, we in the staff can't keep track of our working posts amongst ourselves. :o

Citizen comments shld take place in new offthread threads and also the citizen groups' threads if they're members. We'll read them, promise. ;)

Thanks for the clarifying question, Ohwell.

DuckOfFlanders originally had these threads as leader-post-only, but later changed it allow others to post as well. To reduce noise on this particular thread I just pointed what is NOT appropriate here - clamoring for war, posts better belonging in the advocate group threads, and ones that generate more heat than light :P

As far as preparations, etc, how to strategically have a strong nation, that's just what I'm trying to promote. Constructive posts along those lines are welcome by ANYONE. (Yet I would prefer it the majority of posts were internal)

:cool:
General Charis

General Charis, isn't it time for us to come up with an operational plan? My procedural plan goes like this; someone (preferably the Mil Leader :p) put up a military plan codenamed something (Operation Torch etc) in this thread here, then this plan gets bashed around, modified within the dept (i.e. internally); also to incl input fr citizen posts in other 'military' threads.

Details shld incl how many and what units needed, support units needed, staging points, invasion routes, objectives, objective cities etc.

Then when we finalized on a plan, we shld start a new thread, detailed what the Operation entailed and with all supporting info, with polls for the citizens to vote, comment, suggest, criticise, bash etc. After an accepted plan (modified by citizen input) is OKed, then we'd submit it to the Prez for execution.

What do you think? So get working, o mighty leader! :) :p

I must say that is a very appropriate and interesting proposal. Yet at present I find us hamstrung by the following...

- huge, massive, sprawling areas of black
- we have no clue how many cities Abe has, or how big, or how strong, or (iirc) even where his capital is!
- we have no idea where his iron supply is, or if he has iron, or horses
- we don't know yet if the country has decided to opt for a limited war, wiping out one civ by Feudalism, or multiple campaigns against multiple civs
- in theory someone could declare war or demand tribute from US even before the end of the next 14 turns
- our iron isn't due for 3 turns and we have no barracks

:crazyeye:

So... no "Operation" just yet, but... I see the following happening:
- Get some intel, whether traded maps or by recon
- Get any warriors in his territory "out but near" at the 14 turn mark (to avoid a rep hit, must withdraw from his territory before declaring)
- Strike simultaneously (if feasible) at his iron supply, horses supply, and his best city on our border
- Make sure we're polite with other nearby civs to avoid a two front war
- Take a line of cities leading to, and including, Washington DC

Any more specific plans beyond this would be shots-in-the-dark right now. :P

General Charis

PS and BTW, maybe it's the military man speaking, but I do not see it in the realm of "citizen vote" to decide military actions in preparation, or during, a time of war. (This just doesn't happen, in ANY democracy) They DO choose mil spending budget during peace and war, elect / kick-out leaders who they feel are doing well or poorly. Also, in a Civ 3 democracy realm, the people can and should cry out 'war weariness' if things go too far :P

Originally posted by Charis
So... no "Operation" just yet, but... I see the following happening:
- Get some intel, whether traded maps or by recon
- Get any warriors in his territory "out but near" at the 14 turn mark (to avoid a rep hit, must withdraw from his territory before declaring)
- Strike simultaneously (if feasible) at his iron supply, horses supply, and his best city on our border
- Make sure we're polite with other nearby civs to avoid a two front war
- Take a line of cities leading to, and including, Washington DCWe'll need to coordinate with the Foreign Leader and Trade Leader then. Exchange territorial maps? It'll definitely help a lot in the military preparations.

PS and BTW, maybe it's the military man speaking, but I do not see it in the realm of "citizen vote" to decide military actions in preparation, or during, a time of war. (This just doesn't happen, in ANY democracy) They DO choose mil spending budget during peace and war, elect / kick-out leaders who they feel are doing well or poorly. Also, in a Civ 3 democracy realm, the people can and should cry out 'war weariness' if things go too far :P Then I guess the citizens will just vote on a simple "Whether we go for war" poll and then leave the details to the 'professionals'. If the war goes well, we'll be heroes but if not, heads will roll....... :spank: :lol:

What does the Prez thinks?

A few more suggestions along the lines of restructuring and reorganising the General Staff (yes, we shld have a cool name, rather than simply the Military Dept which sounds rather inane :lol: ).

Role is to : -

1) Come up with operational plans (offensive and defensive)
2) Make military preparations (i.e. building units, barracks, harbours etc)
3) Place units (i.e. where to station standby troops in peacetime)
4) Conduct military recon and special ops (even during peacetime, i.e. with the explorer unit; spec ops also mean to pillage enemy's resource tiles with explorer unit)
5) Generally advise on matters military

BUT the decision to make war shld remain with someone else i.e. the citizens ultimately.

The General Staff shld be professionally-staffed, appointed by the Chief of the General Staff (who'll be elected and who's essentially the Mil Leader) with each election.

The present General Staff shld be expanded. Suggestion : -

Charis - Chief of the General Staff
Falcon02 - Officer for Inter-Dept Coordination (rep during chat)
joespaniel - Staff Officer (how can he be the navy commander when we don't know how to build ships; poor guy :p)
Knight-Dragon - Staff Officer (Army Commander sounds too grandiose :lol: )

Additional positions : -

Officer for Military Procurements (to fullfil role 2 above)
Officer for Military Intelligence & Spec Ops (to fullfil role 4 above)

I'd recommend Ohwell for the military procurement post (since he talks so much about barracks and vets :D) and donsig for the mil intel and sp ops post (so as to give him so much work to do, he won't come and bother us too much :lol: ). If you can't outtalk them, join them. ;)

Each new Chief of the General Staff shall be able to reorganise his General Staff according to his needs.

Thoughts?

PS Yeah, I'm pretty bored at 'work'. :lol:

open letter to general charis:
i agree with you that the citizens should vote wheter to go for war or not.
but i think the mil-dept. does not have to present a "detailed plan" like warrior 1 goest to there and so on to the public. only a general plan: why war? against whom? what do we want? when do we end the war?
a detailed plan only has to be presented to the cabinet, which have to approve it.

also there should be a polls during the war (i suppose every chat-session) whether to continue or stop the war.

maybe (since america seems to be clear as 1st target) you could spawn a thread called "STRIKE AGAINST AMERIKA" or something to collect all citizen comments on this special war, because otherwise this thread would become unreadable very soon.

another point:
maybe a summary of how many units of which type we have in the 1st post of this thread would be nice.


yours,
disorganizer
census officer

Originally posted by donsig
My comments about the foreign affairs thread were not meant as a put down of that dept. Please accept my apologies if that's how the statement comes across!
No problemo.
I got away from my point, which was that the foreign affairs thread does not have a definitive stance on when to declare war. It offers guidelines for the proper way to go about entering a war but in general but nothing (yet) about preparing for a specific war.
This was intentional. My thought was to give the foreign policy but leave the exact timing up to the military (when they felt they were ready to go). I see your point though - the call to arms was ambiguous. We'll get clearer (see next post).
The general impression I got from the thread is that foreign affairs opposes an aggressive war of conquest on our part.
Not at all. The people have spoken and the Department of Foreign Affairs hears and obeys. We fully support the mandate of Manifest Destiny.

The people have spoken. The Department of Foreign Affairs hereby directs the Military Department to prepare for imminent declaration of war against the Americans. Foreign Affairs will wait until the Phoenatican army has a minimum assault force of 6 Immortals or 15 turns have passed, whichever comes first.

The initial war goals are to secure a minimum of 3 American cities and to deny America access to iron.

Bonzai!

Originally posted by marshalljames
Or Cannon Foder,luckily at this level the AI is slow to build barracks also.So.........
Nah, they won't be cannon fodder. Immortals are a dominant force. Put a regular immortal up against an elite spearman in the combat calculator and you'll see what I mean.

That's a good point about the AI though. It's highly unlikely that they will have veteran units.

Put a regular immortal up against an elite spearman in the combat calculator and you'll see what I mean.

Ah, good idea, let's do that!

Immortal wins 41%, loses 59% !!! :eek:
(Regular immortal vs a fortified elite spearman, grasslands, and in a small town with 0% bonus)
Great suggestion, Shaitan, but wrong conclusion (or wrong conditions) :P

Make that VET immortal vs REG spear: Immortal wins 82%
(Reg vs Reg: 68%/32%, Vet vs Vet: 70%/30%)
(Elite Immortal vs Reg spear: whopping 90%, even fortified.

90% chances -- That's what we want :P

Comparing to a non-UU, how does a Swordsman do?
Reg sword vs reg spear: 55% win
How does that swordsman do if we let him swing first at immortal?
Reg sword vs reg immortal, not fortified: 64% win
Reg sword vs vet immortal: 50% sword wins
Reg sword vs fortified vet immortal: 40% sword wins
Reg horse vs reg immortal, non-fort: 46% horse wins
Reg horse vs vet immortal, non-fort: 30% horse, 70% immortal.

BTW, if we wait til feudalism and make those spears pikes:
Reg imm vs Reg pike (in small town, fortified, grass): 50% to win
Vet imm vs Reg pike: 65% ......... Elite imm vs Reg pike: 77%
Vet immortal vs Regular musket, make it size 7 town: *35%*

So if we DO have only a reg immortal and see a spear on a mountain, or a vet spear, pass up on attacking.

Bottom line: send our Immortals out as VETS, and any wars we plan to win with Immortals should finish by the first turns of the middle age.

Action item: Bring home warrior scouts that are VET or better!
These must be upgraded, not left to wander and die to a horse.

General Charis

Originally posted by Charis
Ah, good idea, let's do that!

Immortal wins 41%, loses 59% !!! :eek:
(Regular immortal vs a fortified elite spearman, grasslands, and in a small town with 0% bonus)
Great suggestion, Shaitan, but wrong conclusion (or wrong conditions) :P
Nope, right conclusion. I was pointing out (in a rather ineffective manner) that even a rookie immortal has a fair chance against the most elite spearman. Your examples worked much better ;)

We do have some intelligence on the Americans, as one of our scouts has been crawling along the mountains on their border. Also, from the diplomacy screen, we can see that the Americans have 7 cities, including their capital. We will also have 7 cities in a few turns, so they are no larger than us. We have not yet located any sources of iron or horses in American territory.

The only warrior that has been promoted (we have not been particularly lucky in this regard) is in Shailenogha.

Military preparations will begin in the next session, I think, though I do think that Eyr needs a temple before its barracks. At this point, I do believe that Fox's Nest needs to continue building a wonder, as we still have a very good chance at any that we want, since only a couple other civs have even started building one.

I sugegst that we take Philadelphia and Boston, and then, without fortifying those cities themselves (cultureflips), but a line of immortals just outside of those cities, ready to retake them, in case of a rebellion and an outside attempts to take it.

I was reading about the plans by the high command to build warriors only (later upgraded to immortals). I see the pros with this but I feel that there is a major thing missing from their discussions- immortals cannot be further upgraded, spearmen can (to mech infantry). Imagine a enemy that has spent their time upgrading their spearmen to mechinfantry and we still have immortals!:eek:
Any plans to counter this?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Phoenix
I was reading about the plans by the high command to build warriors only (later upgraded to immortals). I see the pros with this but I feel that there is a major thing missing from their discussions- immortals cannot be further upgraded, spearmen can (to mech infantry). Imagine a enemy that has spent their time upgrading their spearmen to mechinfantry and we still have immortals!:eek:
Any plans to counter this?:rolleyes:
My standard Persian battle plan is to use the Immortals to take a wide swath of buffer cities. When the Immortals are outclassed (with proper bombard support and accompanying defensive units this happens at rifleman) I bring them to the back rank cities for garrison duty. This frees the spearmen that were there to upgrade and move to the frontline cities.

Note that even though I continue using the Immortals until riflemen pop up I don't build more of them once a better offensive unit is available.

I think that we should tell the science department to research the Rebublic so that we get extra money for our glorious armies. Also we should advice the Pres' to give extra commerce to science (with our goals in mind) temporaraly. In the long run (actualy tell are close ti discovering the Rubublic) we will benefit hugely.:crazyeye:

We are now in a state of War with the Babylonians. Why this unexpected state of war? We wouldn't cave into their peity threats demanding our precious Maps. However, they are far to the south, beyond Rome and Greece, so we really don't have to worry about them at the moment.

We have been talking about allying with Greece to give them the work of eliminating any Babylonian attacks they try to send throught their land to us. Any way we likely won't have to deal with them personally until we have began dominating our corner of the Continent.

Our planned Invasion of America is progressing slowly. We have a line of warriors blocking an American settler from taking our land.

According to the Diplomacy screen the Americans have 8 cities, only one more than us at the moment. Also, the computer's Military Advisor says that we're about even.
We need to fix that. :D

Unfortunately, The Americans have a connection to Iron:cry:. We are 3 turns away from completing a road from our Iron to a new city named "Pherris." This city is intended to be our upgrade point, and potentially an Immortal factory. The city itself is also 11 turns away from finishing a Barracks to allow upgrading and building of veterans.

So we have at least 11 turns (unless we whip) until we can build immortals. And depending on how many warriors we can get there in time for the barracks, I think it will take maybe 2-3 turns (only a ROUGH estimate) to amass upgraded Immortals.

However, now that we can trade maps, I suggest that we attempt to get the American Territorial map. :scan:
I took a look at the game at it seems like they'll trade it for our world map. I'm wary to give them that though myself. Even if we are killing them, Abe could trade it with others. However we may be able to work out a better deal.

Well hopefully those generals at black masses will bring us some needed slave labour.Remove the American vermin from our land.

Deputy Hendrix

one thing I must add, we won't be able to whip in Pherris for a while (It's only size one at the moment). I'm not in the game anymore, so I can't tell you how many more turns till we could whip the Barracks in place. But, the plan of most was to let the Barracks build then whip in the following Library, allowing it to grow and become a more effective Soldier factory.

Phoenatica 1125 BC -- War with the Babylonians - Military Dept. Report

OpSit: AT WAR, With Babylon.
BARBARIAN Horde near Fox Nest ! (Circassians, says my Mil Advisor)

Army: 14 Warriors (13 reg, one vet). 1 reg Spearman, 3 workers.
Of those, 1 is pure scout, 1 is scouting but nearby, 1 stuck in America.
Military strength: 'Weak' compared to Babs, avg or weak to all others.
18 units, out of 28 allowed (Weak compared to India? Bah)
Given our food situation and LOUSY starting area, this isn't bad!
Units in production: 0 military. 1 settler.

Progress:
TWO cities with iron access founded :hammer:
Barracks in progress, due in 5, 11 and 13/25
** Pherris was founded in the WRONG spot and will delay war for about 6
extra turns. ** (If this was Eyrei's decision, it's his call, but this
was *NOT* the spot discussed in forums! A strong request here was made
for one square SW of where it now stands. The lack of the flood plains
has slowed the city growth to a crawl, the overlap with PDX is bad,
and our long term food situation is worse, picking up more unneeded
mountains)

Yet to do... (only ten turns since last time, so decent progress made)
No iron connected. (Very soon, to Pherris)
No barracks (due in 5, 11 and 13)
Not much defense.
No attacker stronger than a warrior.
Lack horseback riding, down about 5 techs overall. (None 'crucial')
Build more warriors (Why is Eyr on temple?? Expansion gets it nothing.
Shailo's temple was a good call, allowing it to grow)

Cities sites to consider:
4) Coastal hill south of horses, SE of Fox Next. It's got coast, horses,
two spice, two fish, and two gold (!!) KEY KEY
3) Not a bad spot: The plain grassland near Khatova (2 SE then 2 South)
which has fresh water, a wheat, iron, and gold, all within city limits.
Distance to capital is 9. The hill one NE is good too, missing the wheat)
Decreased priority due to founding of #5, Civinator.
New) Coastal horse city NW of capital
Washington, NY and Philly! :hammer:

Alliances:
We almost SURELY want to form an alliance with either Rome or Greece vs
Babylons. This will let us pursue our goals against America, will get them
in friend mode so if the other of the two attacks, we bring them in to that
war as well. Why them? Close neighbors, so having them on OUR side helps alot
to prevent a two front war later. Also with their UU's, they are *not* on the
ancient era conquest list. Also, war for them slows down their expansion up
toward Fox Nest :P

This alliance may NOT be cheap 8-\ I leave the choice of WHICH civ up to
Foreign affairs, and the prices may not be the same. They are equivalently
good in my mind. I trust Alex less, but Caesar is mildly annoyed at present
(the embassy itself might clear that up)

Military Objective:
This is now MUCH clearer in my mind! And very specific:
America- cities of Washington, New York and Philadelphia, then extort peace
for all their techs. If they don't give in, take San Fran or Boston,
but don't press on for their extermination (yet).

Why?
- These cities are *PRIME* sites, just wonderful land. If we started in that
land, we might have conquered a civ by now :P
- AI's tend to be ready to knuckle under once you take 3 cities
- The loss of those three would absolutely cripple Abe. We can take our times
finishing him off, and turn to more pressing threats.
- We are *WEAK* militarily, and need to get back to infrastructure and army
build up to stage a second 'cripple' campaign before the middle ages get
going.
- Those three cities are rather near our border. We can declare honestly,
march up, and crush those cities. That stack of 8 immortals will eat up
whatever they have, hands down.
- The best unit we know Abe has is warrior
- We take their iron AND horse supply with these cities.
- That clown has a settler right near PDX, I sense a settlement very soon

Call for feedback! We have two tactical choices - go for 'surprise' and
blitz attack and walk up to DC, NY, Philly, all in the same turn, with
3 stacks of 3. This would give us the element of surprise and there would
be no time at all for Abe to mount a defense. Plan 'B' is to send the Immortals
in as a "stack of doom", 8+ units (6 at a min, 9 is even better)
Because the borders of Philly and NY are *so* thin right now, it's just one
step from neutral land and war declaration to being on a forest (Philly) and
mountaintop (NY) for capture on the very next turn. DC is a little more territory
to cross before engaging.

CITIZENS! Post feedback and thoughts in the "War Church" Thread please!
There are going to be a ton of comments, I expect, and need to keep this
thread fairly clean. Thanks in advance!

Specific recommendations
_ **TURN THE CITY GOVERNOR OFF** It's on (again) in Pherris, Civinator, Eyr!
- Switch Shailo's citizen from fish to grassfield-mine
- Get a warrior near PDX back inside the city NOW :P (already planned no doubt)
- Buy (not trade) territory map with Abe. Do NOT give world map, or gpt.
Territory map would get sold around to the world, so see if a small cash
gold sum will buy it
- Found '4' ASAP (with the Khatovar settler)
- Get #units up to #allowed, as vets and workers, asap.
- Establish embassy with Greece and/or Rome to allow next action
- Ally with Greece OR Rome vs Babs.
*** IF cost is too high, such that we don't have at LEAST 240 hard cash
leftover, we can't do this. We MUST have 240 to 320 gold for immortal
upgrades or we can kiss goodbye this window of war.
- After Pherris barracks up and 8 immortals trained, move them into
position outside Philly and NY, in neutral territory, and declare war.
This will be *14-17* turns from now :( (So slow in fact,
we may end up seeing Babylon arrive at our door first :P )
- Note we MAY be overrun by barbs in the capital. Consider switching Eyr to spear
- DO NOT CHANGE CITY FOUNDING SITES to be something totally undiscussed in
the forums!!! Pherris' location will cause a very undesired delay in the
beginning of the war vs America, and a delay in when Immortals come available.

General Charis

Originally posted by Charis
[B].

Progress:
TWO cities with iron access founded :hammer:
Barracks in progress, due in 5, 11 and 13/25
** Pherris was founded in the WRONG spot and will delay war for about 6
extra turns. ** (If this was Eyrei's decision, it's his call, but this
was *NOT* the spot discussed in forums! A strong request here was made
for one square SW of where it now stands. The lack of the flood plains
has slowed the city growth to a crawl, the overlap with PDX is bad,
and our long term food situation is worse, picking up more unneeded
mountains)



I apologize. However, though it was my decision, I had to be convinced. Everyone else at the chat agreed it was a good decision, so I went along.

Here is the section of the chat:

"<Falcon02> the settler se of Shail.. goes one square se, and then settle
[17:18] <eyrei> the settler we already have will move one tile se and then ubild
[17:18] <_me_> hello
[17:18] <eyrei> yep
[17:19] <_me_> It is Ohwell
[17:19] <Falcon02> the NEW settler goes to the "valley" near the dye in the east
[17:19] <eyrei> hi
[17:19] <eyrei> glad you made it
[17:19] <eyrei> about to start
[17:19] *** greyfox has joined #civfanatics
[17:19] <_me_> np
[17:19] <greyfox> damn...
[17:19] <_me_> didn't know we were playing
[17:19] <_me_> jheh
[17:19] <eyrei> what, fox?
[17:20] *** _me_ is now known as Ohwell
[17:20] <greyfox> I was disconnected
[17:20] <eyrei> this could get ugly if that keeps happening
[17:20] <greyfox> My OP login is still in
[17:20] <eyrei> hmmm
[17:20] <eyrei> lets start
[17:20] *** chiefpaco has left #civfanatics
[17:20] <greyfox> I'm in and ready to click next turn
[17:21] <eyrei> go
[17:22] <greyfox> What should the city be called? And it should be built where it's located right?
[17:22] <Ohwell> Ohwellia
[17:22] <Ohwell> ;)
[17:22] <Falcon02> no don't place it yet
[17:22] <Falcon02> needs to go one square SE
[17:22] <eyrei> no, move it one tile se
[17:22] <Immortal__> its sikes choice I think
[17:22] <greyfox> Then it won't be on the river
[17:22] <Ohwell> um move it on the river
[17:22] <eyrei> charis wants to call it Bueller or soemthing
[17:22] <Justus_II> Pherris Bueller
[17:22] <greyfox> The city should be on the river
[17:23] <eyrei> yeah
[17:23] <Ohwell> Once I become militay advisor I will win the love of the poeple :)
[17:23] <eyrei> it won't make pop 7 in that spot anyway
[17:23] <Falcon02> it will get the flood plain
[17:23] <Ohwell> ANd they will name a city after me
[17:23] <Falcon02> that was part of the reason we ended it then
[17:23] <eyrei> one flood plain will not make it need the river
[17:23] <Falcon02> to discuss it
[17:23] <eyrei> yep
[17:24] <Justus_II> But the river also gives it a commerce bonuse
[17:24] <Falcon02> and we came to the decision that we should move it SE
[17:24] <eyrei> only +1 gold
[17:24] <Falcon02> I have to go for a bit, Not sure how long it will take
[17:24] <eyrei> not worth losing another floodplain
[17:24] <eyrei> alright
[17:24] <greyfox> if moved it will be hard to place more cities in the area
[17:24] <eyrei> we gain two more floodplains if we move it.
[17:24] *** Falcon02 has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[17:25] <Immortal__> more disease as well though
[17:25] <greyfox> Immortal: only if on the floodplain
[17:25] *** theGreyFox has quit IRC (Ping Timeout)
[17:25] <Immortal__> true, oops
[17:25] <eyrei> we only need two more cities in the area
[17:25] <eyrei> it will be fine
[17:25] <greyfox> maybe to the East? River and two Floodplains
[17:26] <eyrei> maybe....
[17:26] *** greyfox is now known as theGreyFox
[17:26] *** Guest62450 has joined #civfanatics
[17:26] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o theGreyFox
[17:26] *** Guest62450 is now known as Falcon02
[17:26] <eyrei> then another city on the hill towards foxs nest
[17:27] <theGreyFox> yeah... when to get the Incense though?
[17:27] <eyrei> we alreday have incense in shail
[17:27] * Falcon02 is back only to keep tabs on what happens
[17:27] <Falcon02> while away
[17:27] <sike> it wil, come
[17:27] <eyrei> another city on the hill with the road near the incnese
[17:28] <eyrei> i say one square east
[17:28] <theGreyFox> Yeah, but that will take time... Not the best place...
[17:28] <sike> good. get the flood plains
[17:28] <theGreyFox> Yeah I think East is the best option
[17:28] <eyrei> what will take time?
[17:28] <eyrei> east it is then
[17:28] <Justus_II> if we go east, will it still be adjacent to the iron?
[17:28] <theGreyFox> To get the Incense within our borders
[17:28] <eyrei> we will need a colony or a temple
[17:28] <Justus_II> I thought Charis wanted to build it to connect to the iron without a temple
[17:28] <eyrei> we already have incense, it can wait
[17:29] <theGreyFox> Yeah we will have the Iron inside the borders without the need of a temple
[17:29] <Justus_II> because we need to build a barracks right away
[17:29] <Justus_II> Oh, will it connect?"

As you can see, I actually argued for your chosen placement, but eventually was swayed. In the long run, this is probably a better placement for the empire as a whole, but I do now see the reasons it is debatable for the short term.

Always a pleasure to read your postings Charis. You are upfront and direct in your approach to a strong nation. I would like to ask if this thread is now for the department heads mainly to discuss department level business, or has that been decided yet? I would like to respond on an official level and i'm not sure this is the place (maybe).

@Eyrei, thank you for posting that brief slice of life logged during the last chat session. It proves my point. Way too much chaos. We had three diferrent conversations going at once, Ohwell's wandering in looking for a friend, we placed a city using a disorganized, hodge-podge manner, and it all took place in 11 seconds. Not to mention that gf said he was ready to start the game by pressing next turn - we saved with the settler/warrior still having a move. Although i hate all the massive cut and paste i see in these threads, that was a good one.

I hesitate to post here because I think it is important to keep these threads clean but...

... regarding the chat room. What's the rush to make a descision in 11 seconds? I'm new to chat rooms but it seems in their nature to have more than one conversation going on at once with everyone 'talking' at the same time. Perhaps the powers that be should slow down when playing the game. Restricting themselves to the constitutional 10 turns every other day should help.

I would hate to see a move towards restricting access to the chat room. That would not be a way to involve more citizens!

why doesnt the cabinet+deputys use a moderated chat? the op can do this any time with an irc client. with this only the department-speakers (minister or deputy) are allowed to speak.

the one with the game going is the moderator (normale the pres or vpres), so everyone shuts up till he asks something. and he has to ask each department one after another, THEN, when all spoke their points, its time for discussion. after a conclusion in the cabinet, the moderator makes the turn, speaks out the results and so on.

there should be open discussions with the civs before and/or after the turn, but not IN the turn.

also there should be ONE dedicated speaker for each department in the turn, maybe one other standby if the first falls away (like it happened to GF). maybe we should open a 2nd chat-channel, for public talk and discussion during the turn?
there should also be not only one OP, but minimum 2 (pres+VP)

[and dont forget someone, better 2, should log!]

Originally posted by eyrei


We sold iron working to the romans because they were going to get it from someone else on the next turn, because everyone else had it. ... I realize now that I probably should not have traded iron working according to the trade department.

Mr. Vice Prez, the trade department (me) was present during that last trade of Iron Working and did endorse it for the reasons you stated, that being the Roman's were going to get it anyway as every other known civ had the tech.

Your bigger point is correct, reps during live chat are ideal, however that will be hard for many of us given the global nature of this game.

Bill
Trade Leader

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
We'll need to coordinate with the Foreign Leader and Trade Leader then. Exchange territorial maps? It'll definitely help a lot in the military preparations.



I am opposed to trading our territorial map while our military is weak. I fear it invites invasion.

I would favor buying maps from other civ's for none-leathal techs.

Bill
Trade Leader

Roger that Bill_in_PDX!

I've specifically requested we *NOT* sell our map, territory or world, to anyone, but to BUY the American territory map. Once we have at an absolute minimum a spear in every city, we can freely trade/sell our maps.

Thanks :D
General Charis

So what's now?

What now is we stop spamming this thread! (The President is more likely to miss important points when the thread is cluttered)

Ooops... that didn't quite come across right. If you check at the top of the current page you'll see the specific recommendations from the Military Dept to the President.

I'll repaste here:

Specific recommendations from the Military Dept for today's turn:
- **TURN THE CITY GOVERNOR OFF** It's on (again) in Pherris, Civanator, Eyr!
- Switch Shailo's citizen from fish to grassfield-mine
- Get a warrior near PDX back inside the city NOW :P (already planned no doubt)
- Buy (not trade) territory map with Abe. Do NOT give world map, or gpt.
Territory map would get sold around to the world, so see if a small cash
gold sum will buy it
- Found '4' ASAP (with the Khatovar settler)
- Get #units up to #allowed, as vets and workers, asap.
- Establish embassy with Greece and/or Rome to allow next action
- Ally with Greece OR Rome vs Babs.
*** IF cost is too high, such that we don't have at LEAST 240 hard cash
leftover, we can't do this. We MUST have 240 to 320 gold for immortal
upgrades or we can kiss goodbye this window of war.
- After Pherris barracks up and 8 immortals trained, move them into
position outside Philly and NY, in neutral territory, and declare war.
This will be *14-17* turns from now (So slow in fact,
we may end up seeing Babylon arrive at our door first :P )
- Note we MAY be overrun by barbs in the capital. Consider switching Eyr to spear

- (New) We have no problem with switching Shailo to settler if that is what the other departments want

Also, to answer 'what now' -- I think the game turn is tonight, so join the chat if you're free. 22-23 GMT, more or less.

General Charis

Originally posted by Charis

- (New) We have no problem with switching Shailo to settler if that is what the other departments want


General Charis

One of us is confused, I think. We have been discussing switching Eyr to settler and Shailo to a spearman.

Pai Check!

Oh why did I have the Governors on? I usually don't use them... hmm... (I hope you don't mean the Queue's I have made in the cities.)

The Grassland Mine won't do any good. (The Extra shield went to Waste if I remembered correctly...)

The Warriors will be returned to PDX, they are just out on a Blocking Mission.

Maps will be bought, if the price is right. And I will not sell ours (don't think we'll get much for them anyway).

I want more spears myself, I'll see what I can do.


/The President

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
[B]

Your bigger point is correct, reps during live chat are ideal, however that will be hard for many of us given the global nature of this game.

Yes good point. The decisions should be made by forums only. However as we don't want to slow the game down (making it very frustrating), I believe that the Pres' should look at the overview of the thread when it is only about 1 day old and then make his decision. Somebody should make a poll for this.;)

Does the military departyment agree with the 'presidents' decision about declaring war with babylon.

Originally posted by russia1292000
Does the military departyment agree with the 'presidents' decision about declaring war with babylon.

Babylon declared war on us.

babolon declared war on us because we refuced to allow peace by giving them a world map.

Originally posted by russia1292000
babolon declared war on us because we refuced to allow peace by giving them a world map.

We had no reason to give in that threat. We certainly did not want our territory map published.

THe president could bend his power any way he wants in the future. We may have many "DEFENSIVE" wars

One of us is confused, I think. We have been discussing switching Eyr to settler and Shailo to a spearman.

That would be ME! :crazyeye:

Got the city name wrong, just saying the settler idea is more productive than another barracks at this time. Tnx.

Grey - do check the grassland mine. There is a city, I think the one mentioned, where an extra shield is available for free, or... there was a city with a shield tile chosen which was just corrupt and it could be switched to another tile for more gold. Can't load the game at work and can't be more specific, sorry. (I think it's the case there is an extra shield to be had)

"Blocking mission?" Ah, I love those :P
One thing I've noticed though, if you have a city flat out "empty", it's very much encouraging to other civs 'on the fence' of declaring war with you to plan an attack or demand tribute. It would be interesting if the tribute demand came right after emptying out of that city.

Charis

Well, the Babylonians have found allys in their war against us. :(

Iroqouis
Aztecs
America
Greece
and Rome

So other civ status (diplomatic and army strength)

~Enemies~
Babylonians - Strong
Iroqouis - Average
Aztecs - Average
America - Strong
Greece - Average
Rome - Average

~Neutrals~
Egypt - Average
China - Average
India - Average
Zulus - Average

I must say I WAS NOT pleased with this, however it was unavoidable. So now we are fighting 6 people, including the Babs. I expect the most action from America, since they're so close, then Greece and Rome, then the Aztecs and then the Babs.

Still no Immortals. 4 spearmen and 13 warriors. One spearman in Fox's Nest, Khatovar, and two in Civanatoria.

I feel we should follow Charis' orignal plan, but push up the time table. It looks like the Barracks in Pherris will be done in one turn, so I suggest we start upgrading IMMEDIATELY. We alreay have 3 warriors waiting for upgrade in the city. Once the Barracks in Pherris is done we should switch that to PURE Immortal building. have PDX and Eyr build Warriors and move them to Pherris for upgrades. and send the Immortals to America.
We also need a definate cost for Immortal upgrades for planning our upgrades. People in the Chat said 40 gold each, but no one was certian.

Also I suggest we forget all improvements and cultural building, (except our wonder) and set everyone to build up our military. This is a military Emergency and we have 3 neighbors against us, along with 3 distant civs.

We also need to seek Alliences, We can take America, just try to get other civs to get our other enemies. My first suggestion is Egypt, they are polite to us and have about the same army size as us. If we don't buy allies, those allies will eventually become enemies. And at this point the fewer the enemies the better.

America is placing warriors on our border, assumably in preperations for an attack. We should just leave our cities well defended and when we attack ignore them and go straight for the cities.

We ended the game so that ALL this could be discussed, everything happened quicker than we really wanted. :cry:

Originally posted by Falcon02

Also I suggest we forget all improvements and cultural building, (except our wonder) and set everyone to build up our military. This is a military Emergency and we have 3 neighbors against us, along with 3 distant civs.


We should build barracks, immortals are good but veteran immortals are better.

I think the costs for Upgrades is (Shield Difference)*2 Which would mean 40 Gold in our case.

Anyway, should we Ally with the Egyptians before it's too late?

You're right, barracks should be an exception. How about this wording....

No "non-military" (or ONLY military) building projects except for the wonder. And I think we should ally with Egypt RIGHT when the game starts, and any other civs that we determine neccissary. But Egypt's proximity, known location, and strength makes them Ideal allies.

Originally posted by Falcon02
You're right, barracks should be an exception. How about this wording....

No "non-military" (or ONLY military) building projects except for the wonder. And I think we should ally with Egypt RIGHT when the game starts, and any other civs that we determine neccissary. But Egypt's proximity, known location, and strength makes them Ideal allies.

ALL of this I agree with, all of it!!

FOR THE GLORY OF OUR EMPIRE!!!!! :egypt: will join us or die! :cool: :cool: :cool:

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Anyway, should we Ally with the Egyptians before it's too late?

We should ally with the Egyptians immediately. We could be in a bad situation were they to pile on with the others, and I fear that could happen within a few short turns.

Bill
Trade Leader

I also think we should try to take out the American's horses (3 steps away from our warrior on patrol outside of PDX).

This will stop the Americans from building up a mobile force to threaten our interior and buy us critical time to upgrade our own forces.

I don't see the other Civ's (assuming we ally with Egypt) as a threat in the ancient times given the geography between us and them.

Bill
Trade Leader

PRELIMINARY Military Analysis - The Great War - 875 BC

Very initial thoughts... a *TON* has happened. Mr. President, I **BEG** you
to read every point in this post carefully, and if ANYTHING is not crystal
clear, ask for an explanation. But the specifics listed are, I believe,
essential not only to surviving but to coming out blazing from this war.

Tech: We could buy polytheism, philosophy, code of laws for about 35 gold each
(or far better, 1gpt and 15 gold, NOT map) when you think an AI has republic
or Monarchy. Monarchy would be ideal, and you'll know when it's available when
someone starts Hanging Gardens. Since no one is, I bet it's NOT yet known.

* SHUT DOWN RESEARCH * Here's why and how:
Buy literature, now, from Zulus for *5 gold*. (Do we need Shaka coming after us
too?) Buy Polytheism from Egypt for 1 gpt and about 15 gold.
Buy Horseback riding from India for 1 gpt. Buy math from China for 1 gpt
and less than 10 gold. This will keep all four peaceful civs thinking twice
about allying against us (costs them money) See why to shut it down?
Can buy lit, get it now, for 5 gold, or continue to research, get in 9 turns,
at a cost of *18*. That's triple the price!!! Shut it down and keep it shut
down until Scientific Method. (This is, sadly, best practice in v1.17)

** OUR Immortals will set off the Golden Age. If we were in Monarchy at the time
it would be outstanding ** In fact, if the foes "trickle" in, and it's a case
of kill one early unit quickly or let it kill itself on a spear, and delay the
Golden Age several turns, choose the later.

Production: Would go ALL military. We're at war with SIX civs and have 'weak'
military compared to most. For 90 shields for 3 settlers it would be 9 warriors
or 3 Immortals or 4.5 spears. We can capture 3 extra cities with those puppies :P

Our VERY BEST producer is out of the game, going for the Library. 8-\
With that an two settlers, that's a total of *12 shields* left for the whole
nation. We can't defend the cities we have now properly... adding more would
NOT help!

Citizen in Shailo is working 2.0.0 grass instead of 2.0.2 fish.

Consider whipping a barracks, NOW, in Khatovar.
Civanatoria grows in 4. Swap now to warrior, due in 3. Right after growth,
whip barracks there, then crank (several) spears.

Econ: We have funds for ~10 upgrades or more, oustanding (we'll NEED it!)

Alliances: If we don't get SOME deal going with Egypt, preferably something
very cheap with some gpt (eg Polytheism for 1gpt and 15ish gold),
they too will join the feeding frenzy. If the people want *SOME* ally,
choose Egypt vs Greece. But realize it's not an MPP, and that will only
take the heat off one of our six foes.

Should have taken Rome as ally once Greeks declared 8-\ This was discussed
and recommended specifically but lost in the noise no doubt.

Roads: With Shailo unconnected, and likely to be so for quite a while, go
ahead and now connect Pherris and iron with "Main" road network.
Do this by getting the worker in the area to build a road one square SE of
Pherris, in the hills. (Don't connect Shailo if this occurs)
If we can get it connected, PDX should crank build Immortals from now until
Feudalism. Speaking of roads, if we can get a warrior up to pillage the
horse near Washington, it would be quite beneficial. (tnx Bill!)

Basic plan: Military, military and more military. Crank vet immortals and spears
until we're blue in the face. Then crank some more. They will become elite,
our six foes will give up trying to take out four units (half spear, half
immortal) fortified in towns on hills. They will make peace. We will make peace,
with all but America. We will NOT stop at Washington, Philly, and New York.
We will exterminate America. Then we will crush every foe, in order of closeness
to us, that joined the war. We will extort all the tech and money we can,
and if we're not finished before chivalry, we will build up an army of Knights
and we will press on. Athens, Rome, Babylon, Salamanca, and Tenochitlins
will be razed. Any questions? :hammer:

* I'm starting a new citizens thread for the 'Great War'. For this war, please,
I must ask only Mil Dept deputy's, cabinet members and the President post here.
We'll ALL be following the citizens thread, for there is much to be heard!

General Charis

PS I said 40 gold for upgrades and I meant it. Why doubt the General?! ;p

PPS - EDIT - Raze? Did I say raze??? I meant "Capture and introduce the people to our benevolent culture!"

I agree with your post in its entirety except for a few select spots, but this line of all I want to address in a polite and friendly manner:

Athens, Rome, Babylon, Salamanca, and Tenochitlins
will be razed. Any questions?

while I agree we should attack and conquer these cities, they would function for us much better as our own property, unless you meant raze in a sarcastic manner of course :)

I hear you Charis!

I agree with what your Ideas.

We were having discussions about Alliances during the chat, and we intended to Allie with the Aztecs on the first turn, but we decided not to, because we wanted to save our money.

We are not working the Fish in Shail because of the Barbarian Galley. It's blocking the tile.

Originally posted by Charis
PRELIMINARY Military Analysis - The Great War - 875 BC

Tech: We could buy polytheism, philosophy, code of laws for about 35 gold each (or far better, 1gpt and 15 gold, NOT map) when you think an AI has republic or Monarchy. Monarchy would be ideal, and you'll know when it's available when someone starts Hanging Gardens. Since no one is, I bet it's NOT yet known.

* SHUT DOWN RESEARCH * Here's why and how:
Buy literature, now, from Zulus for *5 gold*. (Do we need Shaka coming after us too?) Buy Polytheism from Egypt for 1 gpt and about 15 gold. Buy Horseback riding from India for 1 gpt. Buy math from China for 1 gpt and less than 10 gold. This will keep all four peaceful civs thinking twice about allying against us (costs them money) See why to shut it down? Can buy lit, get it now, for 5 gold, or continue to research, get in 9 turns,
at a cost of *18*. That's triple the price!!!

Speaking of roads, if we can get a warrior up to pillage the horse near Washington, it would be quite beneficial. (tnx Bill!)



The Trade Department is opposed to spending gold per turn as a general principle, and would rather buy the techs you describe with cash up front.

However, this is a complicated situation. I think an alliance with Egypt using gold per turn is advisable and quickly. I know this is different from a MPP as you astutely point out. I think that the Egyptians are the only real threat to us besides the Americans were they to join the global alliance against us.

The key issue in ancient warefare is terrain. Only the Egyptians and Americans have access to viable mobile terrain. Bring the Egytians in on our side, and we have negated that effect. Further, an alliance with Egpyt would provide the double effect of weakening the Americans, so it should be an alliance targeted at the Americans. Specifically not against the Babs, because....

Thirdly, we should explore peace with the Babs. They are ruthless backstabbers and their peace would begin to undermine the alliance against us, while creating a entirely new dynamic between the AI Civ's.

Finally, I agree that our economy should go on war footing.

We didn't ask for this war....yes, a global war started over a world map...but we will win it, and through these events we will dominate the northern half of the continent, and destablize the other civs.

To your final point Charis, you're welcome, but I am certain you would have recommended the same move. Those horses turn the whole tide against the Americans as I doubt the AI would reconnect them with a worker that close to our lines.

Crisis and opportunity...I love this game!

Bill
Trade Leader.

This is not good.:eek: I suggest that we rush build a spearman in every city (other than the capital), if one cannot be produced in less than five turns. Once this is done, Khatovar should be switched back to a settler for the NW territory. All other cities should be producing either a barracks, walls, or military units. I also believe we need to sign an alliance with at least Egypt, and possibly the Aztecs. How many turns were played? We probably should have decided on an alliane to sign with someone. Too late now. We need to either increase the time between sessions, or allow the cabinet more power to make decisions. This delay in deciding on an ally has cost us....

:cry:

I do not absolve myself from responsibility for this delay. I think most of the cabinet has other responsibilities as well, so maybe we should extend the time between sessions to three days instead of two, to avoid something like this happening again.

Phoenatica will survive!!!!!!
I offer my full support to the military department, and more particularly to the foreign affairs department, as that is more where my skills are.

I will offer a more complete analysis tomorrow after work, after I have assimilated all this information. I do believe some diplomatic manuevering will spare us most of the hardship of this war.

Originally posted by eyrei
I also believe we need to sign an alliance with at least Egypt, and possibly the Aztecs. How many turns were played? We probably should have decided on an alliane to sign with someone.

1) The aztecs declared war on us shortly after the iroquois did, it was unavoidable.

2) we played 9 or 10 turns, cant recall

3) We couldnt afford an alliance with anyone, our economy would have been severely crippled and the upgrade of warriors to immortals would have been stalled probably for 5 turns, a serious setback when we are at war.

Razed??! :eek: Did I say razed?! I meant 'captured, and productively brought into our own fine nation as full contributing members' ! Thanks for catching that Immortal :D

Actually, the General got a little warm under the collar and got caught up in the excitement of it all.

I'm aware of the policy to not raze without an exceedingly good reason (pre-Nationalism anyway), and think it's a good one. Washington for example, we want to own, starve down and regrow with native Phoenatics. It might even make a good Forbidden summer palace!

* On alliances... I like the idea of Egypt vs Greece, *but*... is it me, or is the cost of an alliance when you're weak pretty much "All the gold in your treasury, and then some" The embassy with Egypt is real cheap, and might be worth getting. But I would be shocked if an alliance were even close to being affordable.

Our treasury plus, say 5 gpt more would mean 13 immortal upgrades and would be an absolute "NO". This is a case I hope I'm wrong and it would cost way less. At 100 gold it's a bargain, at 200 it's very dicey, and beyond that, just not worth it.

The reason I was strongly promoting SOME trade deal, gpt not cash, was that what we really want is no more civs to jump in on the "kill Phoenatica" bandwagon. If they stay at peace and see those civs sent troops far from home, they will put 2 and 2 together and stage an attack of their own.

On the rushbuy of spear idea - it may become necessary, but right now it would be bad - too few shields saved, and no attacking force is even visible yet. But - those border town barracks whippings I suggested are REALLY solid in that having a barracks to fully heal your defensive units when your city gets attacks may very well mean the difference between keeping and losing a city, or having no losses vs heavy casualties.

If in 14 turns from now things get REAL ugly, we may need to swap off Pyramid/GL to Oracle just to finish *SOME* wonder and get Fox Nest on a barracks and spears/imms.

Glad to see the nation pulling together during these dark days...
General Charis

Originally posted by Charis

On the rushbuy of spear idea - it may become necessary, but right now it would be bad - too few shields saved, and no attacking force is even visible yet. But - those border town barracks whippings I suggested are REALLY solid in that having a barracks to fully heal your defensive units when your city gets attacks may very well mean the difference between keeping and losing a city, or having no losses vs heavy casualties.



I may have been a little excited. I am assuming that Civanator was switched to a spearman as soon as the Americans declared war, if it had not been already. It is good to see Khatovar still producing a settler. Has Eyr been switched to a barracks? It has pretty high production potential, and could pump our spearmen or proto-immortals pretty quickly.

I think we need to hook iron up to PDX, and upgrade the warriors there. Even regular immortals should quickly become veteran while fighting a defensive war against the Americans while we mass forces for an attack.

So, to amass it all, we force AMericans from war as ssoon as we could, then prepare forces for defense of our positiosn. Any info on our other opponents (east? south? WHERE THE HECK ARE THEY)

das,

the Romans are to our SSW
the Greeks are to our South-East
Aztecs are below the Romans
The Babs are below them.
The Americans are to our North-East
And the Egyptians are to our ESE

We have no idea where the Iroqouis or other civs are yet, since we don't have enough of the map exposed yet.


Anyway, I agree with Charis, and I believe we should pay gpt. While I normally don't do this myself, here it will give them interests in staying at peace with us and will save money for immediate Immortal upgrades.

Ok I think that we should ally with anyone that we can, as long as it doesn't cost us much. If there is somebody willing to join our hoiroic conquest for nothing then we should definetly take them, no matter how useless they are. has anybody got any idea how long it will take for the other nations to come to there senses and realise that negotiating peace with us is there only option?:scan:

I was able to attend the turn chat at first, but after a few minutes, I was drafted into service by my Parents. I'm sorry I wasn't able to attend the entire turn chat tonight.

It is my duty to bring to the attention of the cabinet and the people of Phoenatica that due to the large continent we are on, a *prolonged* war with America would give the Civs to the South time to expand into the Southern empty space which is rightfully ours by Manifest Destiny.

[Roleplaying citizen in Consultative/Pseudo-democratic Despotism:]
Much as I am for weakening America at this stage (eg. capturing some of their cities), I would find it difficult to support a *prolonged* war against America unless its benefits outweigh those forgone by letting Civs to the South gain in territory at our expense. :eek: (are we suffering from war-weariness already?) ;)

This is in addition to several points mentioned in this thread by hi_2k on April 7:
Edit: missed URL:
[URL=http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19498&perpage=20&pagenumber=2]
Edit: sorry, can't figure out how to do a proper URL.

If something like this has been posted in another thread (haven't seen any yet), pls. don't flame as it's becoming impossible to read all the threads.

Zur

New enemy, no surprise there. However I expected Egypt to be next, it was India instead. Since we haven't a clue where they are yet, I don't expect to see their troops anytime soon.

We have lost our first two Immortals, and I suggest we design and build a monument to our first heroic soldiers to die at the hand of the Enemy. So if you're creative and have the time, please submit a design, if you wish?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Romans_at_Fox.jpg

This image shows Fox's Nest. The attacks are begaining to come from the south, specifically Rome. It will be 3 turns till they can attack Fox's Nest, but we need to get a stronger garrison there soon. The only way to strengthen it in time for the warriors is to send the Spearman from Eyr. However, I don't want to leave Eyr undefended, and I expect that we should be able to repel the inevitable attacks.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/philly_attack.jpg

This shows our planned attack on Philidelphia. We plan to regroup our 5 Immortals (2 vets) at some point get them beyond the River and then attack Philidelphia, and likely take it.

There is also a lone Immortal approaching Washington's Horse, to deny our Enemies this important resource.

So what's the Military Departments view on order of attack?

To attack with Veteran unit's first (or the best), and then Regulars or otherwise?

~sigh~ and I had just left Pheonatica to work on my China game... Back to Pheonatica to view the situation again....

My opinion, semi-official as it is, is this...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/attack_plan.jpg

continue our push to Philly, get a garrison there. Go on to NY and Washington, leaving garrisons. Delay at washington, getting reinforced.

After Washington, and amassing troops at Shailonegha, push to Miami, Boston, and Chicago.

While we're doing that or after wards, take Atlanta, Seattle, and then San Fransisco.

This will require a near constant supply of Immortals though. But I think it's do able. And we were planning on eliminating the Americans from the Feild.

Anyway this is my plan, any thoughts?

"Resistance is Futile!" :borg:

Nice maps Falcon!

The Philly-DC line is pretty much what I envisioned, and higher priority than the West approach - if we had double the forces we could do both simultaneously, but we don't. If we become really short on forces or have to recall any for defense, I would be prone to take Philly and DC then demand peace (not pay for, demand). With Houston gone and those two, maybe Americans will have some sense.

On attack order... for me it's always situation-specific. I try to get elites and get them to have a leader chance, and given an outcome of one full strength with one real weak, or two semi-weak, I'll take the former. I also like to use what I need for the task but not much more, if units are scarce.

Example: vet and reg warrior vs a barb horse, I'll go with the regular, since a) it should be sufficient, and b) it won't leave me with two weak in one spot if we take dmg. Ex2: vet and reg immortals vs a fortified city across a river. I expect to lose at least one, and will go regular first to weaken then vet to kill (and hope for promotion).

I wouldn't think of tying your hands with more specific guidelines that I expect you to follow, Mr. President. I know your distinguished military background and have confidence in your ability. If or when we get a president who can't make tactical decisions with confidence, we'll want to officially "mobilize" and let a general lead. :P I'm also glad Falcon is at most chats to give advice from our department.

If there is a 'specific' situation you can see coming up and have a question though, I'ld be glad to give an answer.

Thanks,
General Charis

Question to our brilliant military leaders (and I love the graphics with arrows by the way).

Did we consider driving straight for DC first?

A victory there followed by taking Atlanta would split the American's in two. In my experience they would sue for peace and cede the northern cities to us in the process.

I know we all want to squash the American virus from our continent for all time, but I fear we are not in position (with slow moving enemy forces now appearing from the south), and our lack of preparation in starting the war (meaning they came after us before we had our 6-12 immortals ready for immediate attack) to completely wipe out the American's without peace first.

Bill
Trade Leader

Yes, we did concider DC as a first choice, but felt that Philly was the better choice (during the chat).

You have a good point about splitting and going for peace. But I thought we had come to a general concensus to eliminate America.

Secondly, I feel I must add more detail to my plan to show how I think this can be done. PDX and Pherris will act as Immortal factories for our offensive with America. Shailonegha will provide warriors to be upgraded. Eyr and Khatovar will provide Spearmen for defense. making Fox Nest and newly captured American cities priorities for spearmen.

@ General Charis - The DOC would like to recommend a promotion in pay grade for Falcon02. Excellent work both in the field and administratively.

@ Bill - Good plan. As our forces advanced our front lines and regrouped for orders, i was one who recommended attacking Philly with an eye to cripple their war machine before going after the bigs guns. I was thinking us not knowing the enemy strenth, a conservative path to their capital was called for.

One thing donsig pointed out to me... Shailnegha will be a great warrior factory. If we move the citizen working on the plains to a hill (two extra sheilds) we will build warriors every two turns. And also as donsig pointed out our economy can support the upgrade of a warrior to Immortal every TWO turns. :D

So Shailnegha will be a GREAT Immortal factory. Also I suggest that Khatovar's next spearman goe to Fox Nest. And Khatovar, build another spearman that will garrison Shailnegha. After Eyr finishes it's Barracks I feel it should work on being a spearman factory for the empire.

Great work, Falcon! :D :goodjob:

I'd prefer the coastal route. Units in the American capital will get an additional defense bonus. ;) I like the warrior=>immortals prod process. :)

Maybe we should delay our offensive (after Philly of course). to allow for a build up of Immortals to take the coast and work to washington at the same time with more Immortals.

Bill, that is a very good thought. If I were trying to 'hurt' America and come back, the straight-to-DC approach is particularly good. Or... if we only have enough forces to take one city... OR... if the American defenses would ramp up faster than our offense.

It's just that Philly and NY are just outstanding sites, and if I ended up with only two, it would be those two -- not the puny coastal ones, and not a single one far away and harder to defend.

If a situation arose mid-turn that would lead us to seek DC first (or alone), I wouldn't be majorly upset, but as a pre-turn "my beset plan" is Philly, NY, DC. Also, if we take DC and Atlanta, the capital shifts to Philly or NY anyway, and the flipping pressure is pretty intense.

My real worry now is this...

How are we going to come up with a GARRISON for the three big cities currently targeted? That along with defending the homeland. The inability to do so is why I was calling for a "limited" initial war with America, forcing peace after their capture if possible. That is, capture three super city-sites, consolidate our position and defend, letting other civs get tired and come to peace, then with our much larger military, go back and finish up America. (20+ turns later)

General Charis

PS Ok, we'll double Falcon's pay :D

Good point, Charis. Seemed like a limited war is our only reasonable option at this point. I'd like to bring some of those Immortals home as soon as it's convenient and defend the Nest fr any southern incursions. Or build a few more. W/o scouts in the area, we don't know what's happening there.

We didn't expect war with America that soon, so preparations were not that adequate. Given enough resources, I'd have called for spears and horse to accompany our Immortal stack as they move northwards. Ah well. :o

I love the Philly-NY-Wash. attack axis.
Civanatoria has a spearman that could begin moving up immediately to garrison Philly.
The Military Dept. should put forward a tentative mission plan for the immortal near Washington in the event that he is uninjured after pillaging the horses.
Keep up the good work.

The Military Department of Phoenatica would like to recognize the prowess and loyalty our of active deputy and Adjutant, Falcon02, for committment to duty of chat representation and astute tactical planning in forum.

The Department hereby confers the rank of
full Colonel to our fine deputy Falcon and look forward to his role
in the Great War!

:hammer:

With pleasure,
General Charis

PS... in trying to look up an appropriate rank I came across a few tidbits.

"The Regimental Adjutant is a Captain appointed by the Colonel to act as the deputy regimental commander." Although I've used the term regimental, we're really dealing with more than a regiment here :P In this setting, you may take the previous rank as "Lt. Colonel".

Also, it seems during American history, especially in and before the Civil War, promotions to General were: i) few and far between, ii) typically done *after* the completion of a successful war, and iii) appointed directly by the President himself.
So I'm holding that rank open for later, so the deputies have something to look forward to and so they can prove themselves :P

Charis,

Excellent points regarding your plan. I support you in the effort. My concern is that we don't yet have overwhelming force that will allow us to make the rounds from Philly to NY to DC and garrison those cities as you rightly point out. I know that it has been discussed here already, but lets all ensure that we don't expend the blood of our glorious immortals in a piecemeal fashion.

That, and an unknown number of enemy forces coming from the south, that probably will need to be defeated before reasonable peace can be had, lead me to conclude that it would be advisable to pursue a big three city victory against the americans and then take cities in the peace talks. Your plan works just as well as mine, if not better, assuming you are comfortable that we can execute it with the forces we will have in the 15 turns.

I would personally advice against expending forces on the northern coast cities. They are not as good a location, and I know that they will fall to us via peace talks or culture if we execute on the attack in the center. Plus we just aren't in a position to open a second front in poor terrain.

Just my view. I am impressed by the work and discussions being held in this thread.

Bill
Trade Leader

Okay, since we are democracy, after all, let's create main plan, like Charis Plan we already have, and then we will decide it on one big poll. Personally, I think that we should use the eastern path from Falcon's plan, Thus, we will take enemy capital, and aftert hat, AI usually agrees to a peace treaty.

About Boston and Chicago, we will have to burn them, so no cultureflips. And even if something comes, we must keep a strong-enough force outside of American cities, being able to attack enemy in beginning of rebellion, and force enemy to gie up ocne again.

Originally posted by das
About Boston and Chicago, we will have to burn them, so no cultureflips.
Nay, nay! No razing allowed, Mr. Das. This is one of the central tenets of our society. There are other ways to handle culture flip problems and the Phoenaticans were very vocal about not razing while we built the Foreign Policy.

I am very concerned about forces advancing from the south. These could be minor, but they could also be gigantic. Even if the individual armies are small, all of them put together will be formidable. I think the offensive from the Americans should be supplied by PDX and and Pherris, and that the majority of the upgraded warriors from Shailenogha and most of the units from Eyr should be sent south, to secure our position there for colonization, and to keep enemies away from the capital.

Originally posted by eyrei
I am very concerned about forces advancing from the south. These could be minor, but they could also be gigantic. Even if the individual armies are small, all of them put together will be formidable.
I disagree with this. The AI tends to send token forces when the battlefield is far from their territory. Granted, we do need enough down there to defend and destroy those tokens. If they aren't dealt with they will rampage the countryside destroying our improvements.

The Romans and Greeks are not very far away, and token forces from 5 different nations will create some serious problems when you put them together.

While I certainly hope, and to some degree expect, Southern attacks to be weak, we must defend the capital and other cities adequately.

The AI will head for the weakest point it can, or the closer of equally weak spots. So having a huge garrison at Fox Nest at the neglect of other 'smaller' cities would actually INVITE attacks. From the AI's point of view, that "ally" offer was easy money, for which they had to do almost nothing unless it was in their best interests.

If they sense weakness, they will come at us. If we're decently defended and they lose more troops than they defeat, they will turn tail and go back home. Problem is, as mentioned, five times piddling can be significant, *if* they arrive at once.

Our president may need to get clever, ie if a big multinational force is all seen approaching the capital, emptying out a small town for a few turns might distract them or split them up. If we had a spare spear, fortifying one in the mountains in the south would be excellent intel, and if they were silly enough to attack, he would promote and increase their losses.

When I get home tonight I will take a close look at the map and come up with some specific recommendations. (This last turn snuck up on me, I missed the fact we had a 7-turn turn until late)

Do we or didn't we have a "newspaper" thread that had a summary of all the 'latest news fit to print' ? Not scandal oriented, but just so we (both citizens and leaders) don't miss out on key events :P In a democracy, the "media" can have a significant role -- I hope we don't wait for "printing press"

General Charis

Sending a spearman or two into those mountains is an excellent idea, and I believe this should be acted upon ASAP. Even if they will be needed to defend the capital, they will be able to fall back if a very large force is noticed.

I agree. Get something in those mountains at once. I suggest a force that is actually capable of attacking if we need it to. Maybe a spearman and an Immortal? It would be nice to be able to raid enemy troops if we have the chance, and this might also intice them to attack (and die).

Thanks for the promotion, and doubled pay. I shall use the increased salary wisely, and I will continue to voice my opinion on Military matters to the best of my ability.

Originally posted by omichyron
I agree. Get something in those mountains at once. I suggest a force that is actually capable of attacking if we need it to. Maybe a spearman and an Immortal? It would be nice to be able to raid enemy troops if we have the chance, and this might also intice them to attack (and die).

And also to counter any pillaging activity our enemies plan for.

We've got our Immortal factory, Shailonegha. (1 every 2 turns) But, we've have another problem, spearmen, we need more defensive units. As others have pointed out Fox Nest will soon be under attack and we have no Idea what kind of forces are in the Fog of War. I suggest that we may want to have PDX working on spearmen (1 every 3 turns), I know this reduces our Immortal production a bit. but PDX is the best spearman producer I see, and I think we don't really need PDX to make immortals ever 4 turns with Shailonegha high production rate.

Begging the Colonel's pardon but I think an immortal every four (or even five) turns is much better than a spearman every three! Why not let PDX build the immortals - not only will they defend as good a spearmen they will be able to fight back!:)

Eyrei has designated Eyr as the city to build spearmen (until the GL is done and Fox Nest takes over). Pherris could also work on spearmen as could Civinator once it's library is done.

I agree we need spearmen for garrison duty - that's why I've suggested not building a barrack in Eyr and immediately making spearmen. With lots of immortals our regular spearmen should never see combat anyway.

Okay, sounds good, spearmen built in Eyr and Immortals still built in PDX (some going to guard duty to south, and prep for potential offensive down there).

One more enemy. Greece has made military alliance against us with China.

We lost a warrior trying to prevent Romans from pillaging our mines near Fox Nest. After that we fortified 3 spearmen and one warrior around the Romans to prevent further pillaging and in hopes that they'd attack and lose. This didn't work though, and we lost the warrior and ended up recalling the spearmen to defend Fox's nest from the Roman warrio that killed our vet warrior. And to Eyr to defend against a MASSIVE Barb attack.

We did take Philly, and gained an Elite Immortal in the process (no loses).

New city, named by me, north of the lake called Falcon's Haven (May be lame, but I remember many a day building "Falcon's Haven" in Simcity)

When a Massive Barb build approached from the North we took 2 of the formerly garrisoned.

Despite our efforts to keep Egypt out of the war with Bribes (6 more gpt (11 total) when we feared the Barbs would make us waste the money we had) Egypt declared war on us right after we gave them 6 more gpt and 200 some gold for their world map. (once again we feared the Barbs would steal it if we let it sit for the Barb attack). But we got the World map from teh Egyptians RIGHT before they declared war. We repelled the Barbs. lost one nearby Immortal and one spearman though.

Around turn 7 the Zulus declared, war leaving NO undecided civs. EVERYONE is allied against us, and their all on our continent.

We have now taken NY and are moving on to Washington. We have lost our Iron in the Empire due to a pillage raid, but we now have American Iron.

I suggest we work on getting a worker to Philly to whip a barracks there to upgrade Workers made in the main empire before we finish the road back to the Iron.

I vote for making peace with some of the surrounding civs (Romans, maybe Egyptians if we really don't want those cities by the lake) and then finishing off the Americans. They are weak and they are blocking our expansion northward. Those cities, although not huge shield producers, could be used in the future to stage attacks on our northeastern foes (the Babylonians to be specific). Although we may drain our military, after Lincoln is obliterated we will have gained a tremendous amount of land and some excellent cities, locationwise.

I just don't think that we can continue to wage this war while our southern flank is vunerable. Although the AI hasn't yet made their move, they easily could and we'd have to send some immortals running southward. If we could secure a peace agreement (if they will acknowledge us, that is) then we could perhaps begin trading much needed techs and have a whole half of the empire to forget about.

Sorry for the long (and probably totally ignorant) post. The game is getting exciting, and I can't wait to find out what will happen in the next chat session. LONG LIVE THE PHOENATICAN CAUSE!

We have lost our precious city of Falcon's Haven, and it has been razed. However, the New city to be placed in the NW has been planed to be named New Falcon's Haven, in defiance and memory of those lost. I also intend to push to have another city built upon the ruins of Old Falcon's Haven, to be named with the normal succession of Naming, (So it will likely not be named Falcon's Haven again), this will be done in further defiance, and this time we will have a full garrison to prevent the same massacre.

We will continue our military build up, and I intend to ELIMINATE AMERICA FROM THE MAP. Our Immortals will soon be doubled, and we shall push through America and make sure they remember their mistake. They shall have no 20 turn grace period of peace, we can easily take what we want.

We shall continue our build up without delay. It has been brought to our attention however by Aeson that during a Golden Age the Anarchy period is cut in half. We must decide if we are going to switch to Monarchy now, while we have the shorter period or wait in doubt and not to waste our golden age.

We Now have our great leader on the Field. Charis (Darius) has emerged from one of our Victorious Immortals. I suggest we give Charis an Army of Immortals to lead on the field of Battle.

Unfortunately I don't believe I will be able to attend the turn chat tomarrow. I will try my best to attend, but it is EXTREMELY unlikely that I will be able to attend.

Originally posted by ssmith619
Those cities, although not huge shield producers, could be used in the future to stage attacks on our northeastern foes (the Babylonians to be specific). Although we may drain our military, after Lincoln is obliterated we will have gained a tremendous amount of land and some excellent cities, locationwise.

Ignorant? Hardly :) although the babs are to the south of us, past the aztecs.

CENSUS OFFICE
The Census Office wants to remember all Citizens to re-register in the new official registry http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20720 !!!

CHAT OFFICE
The Chat Office wants to remember the Department Leaders to announce their chat-representatives in the thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20797 until 1 hour before the chat. They will NOT be voiced if not nominated in the thread!

Since I probobly won't be attending the chat, I've made up this list.

Military Goals for Turn Chat.

1.) try to make peace with other nations, all except America, Egypt, and maybe Aztecs (we can get them later if need be), primarily using techs.

2.) Not to spend so much gold that we hinder our Immortal upgrading program.

3.) Push our offensive against the Americans to eliminate them, but send at least half of the "New" Immortals to be upgrade to defend our southern and eastern borders.

4.) Create an Army of Immortals with Charis, with the hopes that our continuing war with Egypt and America will result in another leader we can use to rush Sun Tzu or Leo's Workshop.

5.) continue our heightened military production through the next turn chat.

Okay, our peace agreements nearly all failed. We will soon need total peace though. I feel that our manifest destiny is NEAR completion (my expectations are in the Manifest Destiny Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21190) ), but we will need republic for peacetime production. Republic should come before Education, but after the war is officially over.

I don't intend to force us to accomplish my view of manifest destiny during this war, because peace is an immportant goal for our development. I expect my view of Manifiest destiny will be accomplished much later, maybe during the Industrial age, when we can use Calvary.

I noticed that there are still Immortals under production. I want to point out that these units can not be further upgraded. As we have entered the medieval era, knights will become the dominant factor. I suppose we the Phoenicians want to be the dominant factor, and therefore our armies must consist of knights. That is why I suggest that we cease the production of Immortals, as we have a whole bunch of 'em left.

Ever told you the tale of how a knight defeats a panzer? ;)

Salutations!

Good point, Shabbaman. Immortals make sense now, but down the road, we will need the Knights that may upgrade to Cavalry. I suggest we start looking at integrating horsemen/Knights so we will be prepared for the advent of muskets. I would not want to force our Immortals to face them with merely swords.

It will also depend on when we decide to continue conquering until.

What does the military department intend to do about the Legion near Atlanta?:eek:

Congrats to Falcon02, our newest Military leader for the second term!

:hammer:

He'll do a fine job! Timing is actually rather good, as I'm getting crushed by an unexpected workload increase in RL and some sore wrists requiring less computer time! (If you've noticed me quieter than usual lately, that's why 8-\ ) I'll keep an eye on things and wish Phoenatica well in this splendid era...

General Charis

PS With regard to any legionaries who want a piece of me? Come get some!! I say we give 'em a good spanking!!

[ Thread Closed ]

Military Leader Thread - Term 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21643)