GOTM 13: Isabellahttp://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/leaders/leaders0011.jpg

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!

Further, it MUST be played using HOF mod version 1.61.009. (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.009.exe)




Game settings:
Civilization: Spain (Leader: Isabella; Traits: Expansive, Spiritual)
Rivals: 8
Difficulty: Monarch
Map: Fractal
Mapsize: Large
Climate: Temperate
Water level: high
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Options: normal.
Victory Conditions: all enabled

Isabella:
Isabella is Expansive and Spiritual; starting with fishing and mysticism. Expansive allows a +3 health per city, as well as doble production speed of granaries and harbours. Spiritual allows you to change religions or civics with no anarchy period, as well as double production speed of temples.

Unique unit: Conquistador:
The conquistador replaces the standard knight. The cost and strength of the unit is the same, however it has a +50% bonus against melee units, and, very importantly, it does not suffer the knights 'no defensive bonuses' weakness.

The starting screenshot is here (click for a bigger version!)
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm13small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm13large.jpg)

Adventurer Class bonuses:

Start with a worker and an archer.



Challenger Class Equalisers:

All other civilizations beging with an extra random technology.


You will have approx. 6 weeks to complete this game.

Can I squeeze this in first?

Yes! Now, to edit in something substantial. :D

Fractal Map? Something designed in the realm of quantum mechanics? Is there any predicting what this map will look like, or is it truly random?

Looks like we get to pick our favorite seafood at the start.

dV

Look! He beat CliftonBazaar!
No, you fool! CliftonBazaar only cares about being first to download the SAVE!
Oh! My Bad! Never mind!

With homage to Compromise.

Checking in early. I feel I should, given Isabella's UU and my nickname. :D
6 weeks to complete? Hmm, not bad, or else I'd be tempted to trash WoTM3. What else to comment? Large size map! :eek: First one in Civ4 GOTM history I guess. Hence the extended deadline? Or it is just due to the holiday season approaching? :confused:
Game-wise, nothing smart to say yet. Settling in place, probably, even though it doesn't look too brilliant. Are 8 rivals the standard for large maps?

Large size map! :eek: First one in Civ4 GOTM history I guess. Hence the extended deadline? Or it is just due to the holiday season approaching? :confused:
We often give 6 weeks over xmas. And seeng as period is extended, I went for a large, epic game.

We often give 6 weeks over xmas. And seeng as period is extended, I went for a large, epic game.

Out of interest, does that mean Gotm14 will start mid Jan rather than beginning Jan, or will the Gotm13 and Gotm14 periods overlap?

Look! He beat CliftonBazaar!
No, you fool! CliftonBazaar only cares about being first to download the SAVE!
Oh! My Bad! Never mind!

That's it, I'm hacking into the system so I can put a post above yours :lol:

The reason I download the save first (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Ainwood is in New Zealand while I'm in Australia (2 hours differance) so when he uploads in the afternoon - I'm awake and ready to play :) I can usually finish the game before the USA has even woken up!

Out of interest, does that mean Gotm14 will start mid Jan rather than beginning Jan, or will the Gotm13 and Gotm14 periods overlap?
They'll overlap. GOTM 14 will be a good thing for those nursing a new-years' hangover.

What an evil :satan: starting setup causing for major decision before turn 1 :dunno:

Spain :queen: on a lake :clap: , so settling immedietly to race for religion :worship: is very tempting :yumyum:, BUT if we do that, we likely are blocking :wallbash: ourselves from ever getting that fish :food: which may well be accesible ONLY to a city where the warrior :ar15: now stands.

Even tho that square is nice, and leaves room for another city NE of the pachyderms to pick them up with the clams, because of the forest in between, it will take two full turns to get there, allow us to found only on turn 3, and putting early religions in jeopardy.

Moving the settler N-NE would allow us to found a turn earlier with a more favorable city placement, but we lose the lake for the capital.

Moreover, the Warrior is stuck in a corner, with no useful moves to gain any information before we make a decision.

I probably will end up plopping down in place, but I am far from convinced that is the correct play.

It's been nearly a year since I've had the time to play any Civ. I finally get some free time and we're given an extra two weeks to finish. It's fate! :D I've been playing around with this month's GOTM, getting to know Civ IV a bit and I'll be making a try at a space victory.

I'm fairly sure I'll just settle in place. I'll miss out on the fish but I really don't want three mountains in my capital. I'll take a shot at Meditation, but I'm hoping to end up with Confucianism as my state religion. The free missionary is useful in enlightening my nearest target...er...neighbor. :mischief:

I really enjoy the freedom the spiritual trait gives you. Being able to customize your civics to your current situation without anarchy is very nice.

Can't wait for the 1st!

Trading 3 grasslands for 3 mountains and 1 fish is not a good start, imo

What an evil :satan: starting setup causing for major decision before turn 1 :dunno:

The thought had crossed my mind too.

I'll probably settle in-place and accept the permanent loss of the fish. It's a reasonable spot (especially starting with fishing and meditation -> early religion possible), and with those forests around, it'll take too long for my tastes to look for anywhere better.

Huge map ... dozens of cities ... just the excuse I need to buy a fast new computer and 30" monitor for xmas. I wish!!!

Seems that the only reason not to settle in place is if you really want a city (capital or other) on the hill where the warrior is now. A lot of bother for one fish resource.

"There are other fish in the sea" :lol:

Should be able to find a better use of blood and treasure north or west, I would think ...

Which brings us to fractal maps (new to me). If the only land we get is what we see, then maybe we would want the warrior hill for a city. How unpredictable are fractal maps? In particular, are they so bizzare and random that a practice game does not give you a sense of that map style? Or are they random within some constraints?

I'm likely to wait to start this until we get into SGOTM 3 a ways, as I expect to learn a lot there that will help me in GOTM 13.

dV

On fractal you just don't know whether you facing pangea or continents with galley communication or need astronomy - nothing more unpredictable

I might try to see how many religions I can found and go for a cultural victory.

On fractal you just don't know whether you facing pangea or continents with galley communication or need astronomy - nothing more unpredictable

That's one reason why I love fractal maps on the GOTMs. You can't really decide on your overall strategy until after the game has begun. You have to adapt to whatever you find the map has thrown at you. I have even started fractal maps before and found I'm alone on a continent that's too small to create a viable winning empire on, so there's no choice but to beeline for astronomy (though I doubt Ainwood would give us such a map, as it makes for a very difficult game, and I guess it's less likely to happen on large maps anyway).

The conquistador replaces the standard knight. The cost and strength of the unit is the same, however it has a +50% bonus against melee units, and, very importantly, it does not suffer the knights 'no defensive bonuses' weakness.


That sounds like a very powerful unique unit. I hadn't realized conquistadors kept defensive bonuses (and I definitely appreciate Ainwood pointing that out, otherwise I'd probably have played the whole game on the assumption they didn't). Well worth heading for guilds early if you're in a warmongering frame of mind. Other than elephants, nothing is going to come even close to touching them until musketmen. And since ivory is rare and we start in control of at least one of the local supplies...

In a handful of maps, its been rather crowded. The UU might be nicely timed to expand by the sword. An early religion, maybe two, should be pretty easy. In a couple of runs emphasising commerce it was easy. In another run emphasising food I came within one turn.

Yow! Large and epic? I think maybe I will try a space race this time. I have yet to go that route in a GOTM. I'm afraid that 6 weeks is not enough RL time for a domination victory.

I guess I could try conquest, too. Maybe build nothing but barracks & granaries and whip, whip, whip. I'll either win or lose fast...

I second Dynamics thanks to Ainwood! I also had never read the fine print on the Conquistador. Early religion should be simple enough, only 8 others on a large map seems light to me. The high water level will reduce some of the land of course, and astronomy will almost certainly be needed for the waring types. It could be a great map for almost any victory type. After a little exploring, I'm sure it will start to come into focus!

Does that give our city a prod of 2 shields instead of one? That would open up the space for a fishing town, too, and could still be done on turn one if you're going for the religion. I'm concerned that any of these coastal locations are shield poor. Not being on the lake isn't so bad since we have +3 health anyway (or does the lake even help with that? I forget).

I like moving 2 north. It keeps the clams, allows for another city for the fish and enables 12 possible bonus squares for our capitol instead of the 3 left in fog on the starting view. I'm not terribly thrilled with this city as a capitol.

Got my first test map out the door, enjoy.

I was thinking of moving 2N as well. I will definitely do that just to see what's there before settling...it doesn't seem too great a spot for a capitol, although I will want a city in that area eventually.

Got my first test map out the door, enjoy.

Should be a plainshill beneath the warrior...

Thanks though!!

Hi All,

Is it just me, or is settling in place getting a bad rap?

First of all, I am not sure that a second city on the warrior hill is anything to write home about. We can see the entire fat cross that such city would have, and for resources it is just the fish and the silk. We lose the ability to mine the hill by settling on it.

What does settling in place have? Two happiness resources (one we can get early with a camp), two production tiles (mined hill, camped ivory), clams, watered grassland (cottage or farm as you please), plenty of forest to chop, and coastal location.

What more do we want? How spoiled have the recent juicy starts made us? :lol:

I think that the only reason not to settle in place and let go of the fish is if you think that we are on a tiny island. If that is the fear, then 2N rather than settling on the elephant seems to make more sense to me, so the two cities are not crowded.

But I'm seeing land tile to the west, so I think I'll settle in place and explore north and west for next city.

dV

I enlarged the SS, and there seems to be an hill W/NW of the settler.
Anyway not a powerhouse, but a good starting position, with food, luxuries, production and forests to (eventually) chop.

The island seems not so small ... have you noticed the river SW of the mountains?

Then i'll settle in place, and try to make good use of a (finally) good UU.

I agree this is not the best site for a capital, but a palace move is possible if we manage to settle a powerhuose somewhere.
Last but not least: if the site 2N looks similar, we'll loose 1 turn if we settle there, or 2 if we'll find better go back, in change of ... 1 or 2 turns lost, and with the warrior in that position we can't do anything to help our decision

Is it just me, or is settling in place getting a bad rap?


From what we currently see, I don't see this town specializing in anything. Not enough shields for production powerhouse, not enough commerce without colossus and a zillion towns to make it an average research center, not enough food. It's just an all-around mediocre capital. What good is it?

Not only is it commerce poor, but it will take forever to squeeze the first gold pieces out of it.

You need to research hunting to get the ivory, fishing to get the clams, make a workboat and research sailing to get a measly five bushels of food, and then calendar for the silk. Then there's pottery before you can start making your umpteen cottages.

Bottom line, it has a schizo smorgasboard of unrelated resources that don't add up to much of anything.

You will have approx. 6 weeks to complete this game.

Oh, six weeks, on monarch. I love you. :blush: Errm, I mean that's great. I can play and know I'll be able to finish.

From what we currently see, I don't see this town specializing in anything. Not enough shields for production powerhouse, not enough commerce without colossus and a zillion towns to make it an average research center, not enough food. It's just an all-around mediocre capital. What good is it?

Not only is it commerce poor, but it will take forever to squeeze the first gold pieces out of it.

You need to research hunting to get the ivory, fishing to get the clams, make a workboat and research sailing to get a measly five bushels of food, and then calendar for the silk. Then there's pottery before you can start making your umpteen cottages.

Isabella starts with fishing, so the first gold can come immediately if you want (at a cost in production). Making a workboat is nicer than making a worker (it doesn't stop growth) and then once you have the workboat you can make a worker more quickly.

Pottery's always a bit of a slog at the beginning, but at least with Isabella we start knowing one of its prerequisites.

I do agree though that this looks like not nearly as good a start as we have had in many previous games. I can see myself moving capitals very quickly, especially once I get civil service. On the positive size though, it offers a lot of scope for swapping between commerce and hammers during the early game, according to the needs of the moment. And sure, clams aren't quite as good foodwise as - say grassland/wheat or grassland/corn, but they do come with the benefit that you get commerce for using them.

The fact that there's only three resources (typically I'd expect four-ish) makes me suspect there is something we can't see yet in the fat cross. (Well, at least, if this was a random map I'd suspect that, but there's no telling what Ainwood might have done ;) )

Does anyone know if the debate over whether blue circles identifying good city spots take into account resources you don't yet have the techs to see ever got definitively resolved?

I notice that there's no blue circles on the starting screenshot. I'm guessing Ainwood just happened to have them switched off when he took it. If so I'd be curious to switch them back on when I start the game and see if they do give any useful tips. (But obviously, if they take account only of information that you can see anyway, there's no point doing that).

It looks from the screenshot that the warriors are selected so no blue circle would be visible.

I think ainwood and Gyathaar have been showing the screenshots with the warriors/scouts selected so as to prevent us from guessing what might be hidden based on the blue circles.

I think ainwood and Gyathaar have been showing the screenshots with the warriors/scouts selected so as to prevent us from guessing what might be hidden based on the blue circles.

What's the point of that? When you load the save, you'll be able to see where the blue circles are.

I notice that there's no blue circles on the starting screenshot. I'm guessing Ainwood just happened to have them switched off when he took it. If so I'd be curious to switch them back on when I start the game and see if they do give any useful tips.

There's always a blue circle on the spot with the settler.

I'm really looking forward to this game. Isabella was my first leader in civ4 randomly drawn by the game and conquistadors are really powerful. And I play almost exclusively fractal games as they are really unpredictable what to get. But as the water level is high I'm sure that for conquest and maybe for domination also astronomy would be needed.

I will settle in place. I agree with DynamicSpirit that there's probably a hidden resource somwhere, either the grassland or the hill NW. So with 2 hills, ivory and forests the city is a good eary production city.

My plan is to go for fast domination and I hope i wouldn't be distracted too much by my builder habits. I want to try to get guilds early, as Harok did in GOTM12, maybe using Oracle for feudalism and go straight for guilds. Attack soon with HA and upgrade them to conquistadors later. (hopefully there is someone to attack and the resources)

I hope we have horses and iron nearby and I won't end like in GOTM12 when I cheared to have knights, but didn't have iron to build them :mad:

I was also thinking about lighbulbing guilds, but its quite down the preference tree. Somebody has any reasonable suggestions?

Large and Epic, I thought I would skip this one. Six weeks makes it better.

My settler will move N and NW on the first turn to take a look. Then he can keep on wandering. Or he might come back to one of the tiles that have been discussed, settling on turn 3. Not a big loss on Epic, and I will settle on the best spot, making an informed decision.

I will lose my chances to have an early religion, so what? This game I could go for culture again (less RT required) or maybe conquest (with my country-fellow UU, which I have never used before). Confucianism is very easy to get on Monarch, it spreads faster and it brings a free missionary.

This game I will force myself to declare a religion (for the first time in a GOTM) and I will switch often between religious civics, thus putting the spiritual trait to good use.


As for the blue circles, I would prefer that ainwood would let us see it. The discussions here will be richer the more information we have about the starting position. And it is an information we are going to have before the first move, anyway. On the other hand, I would like to suggest that the HOF MOD eliminates the possibility to see the blue circles, specially if it is true that they use information the human can not yet see.

What's the point of that? When you load the save, you'll be able to see where the blue circles are.
i'll try to answer for thrallia:
what you say it's obvious, but he's meaning that in the pre-game discussion is not possible to talk about the blue circles suggestion.
Sometimes your answers could let people think that you're not so smart, but probably you're only a bit arrogant.
No need for accusations like that, please.

i'll try to answer for thrallia:
what you say it's obvious, but he's meaning that in the pre-game discussion is not possible to talk about the blue circles suggestion.
[Flames deleted.]

This doesn't answer the question. Why would Ainwood or Gyathaar want to prevent this information from being available in the pre-game discussion, when it's going to be available to the players when they start the game? The whole idea of the pre-game discussion is to give players a chance to compare their analyses of the available information at start. Deleting some of that information just makes the pre-game discussion that much less productive.

This is a good answer, and probably this was what the Staff intended to be (i mean a less productive discussion).
Anyway you was right, with the save loaded we'll can see our beloved (or hated, or useless) blue circles.

Conquistadors certainly seem a powerful UU. The only drawback is that they need both horses and iron to build. Ideally, I would like to have both AH and IW researched before selecting sites for cities 2-3, but I don't think I will be able to do that; particularly since my normal approach is to go for an early library and Alphabet and then trading for IW.

Does anyone know if the debate over whether blue circles identifying good city spots take into account resources you don't yet have the techs to see ever got definitively resolved?

I've just been doing some experimenting with worldbuilder to see if I can resolve the answer to this question. What I found is:


I have not been able to change the position of the blue circles by adding and removing resources that you don't yet have the techs to see.
I can change the position of the blue circles by adding and removing resources that you do have the techs to see at the start of the game - even when I'm adding them to tiles that have not yet been explored! (I can also change blue circle position by changing terrain type on unexplored tiles)
Looking at the blue circles with the knowledge of what the map looks like in worldbuilder, I just don't understand the computer's choices. On the whole it's not at all circling the same tiles that I would regard as good squares to settle.
It doesn't blue-circle squares that are currently in the fog of war.
It doesn't blue-circle on top of goody-huts
It doesn't necessarily blue-circle where the settler is standing (sorry Khalid). Indeed, if there really is no suitable spot around, it won't blue circle anywhere (I tested by turning a massive area around a starting spot into desert :lol: ) (Note to Ainwood/Gyathaar: NO! Don't even think it... )


Deduce your own conclusions from that :)

(btw if anyone wants to try the same thing to confirm, it looks like the circles are not updated by going into and coming out of worldbuilder. You have to actually play your turn to see the effect of your changes.)

I've just been doing some experimenting with worldbuilder to see if I can resolve the answer to this question. What I found is:

It doesn't necessarily blue-circle where the settler is standing (sorry Khalid). Indeed, if there really is no suitable spot around, it won't blue circle anywhere


I don't doubt that if you turn everything into desert that the blue circle will disappear :crazyeye:

What I wanted to say is that the map generator tweaks the random map into a position where the point sith the settler will have a blue circle. Maybe I'm wrong as I didn't play so many maps, but i have never seen a map without a blue circle around my settler. Once I played an ice age map and there was ice every 10 squares around the settler, but the fat cross of the settler had grassland, river, 3 clams, plains hill and some forests and some 1 or 2 other resources.

I don't doubt that if you turn everything into desert that the blue circle will disappear :crazyeye:

What I wanted to say is that the map generator tweaks the random map into a position where the point sith the settler will have a blue circle. Maybe I'm wrong as I didn't play so many maps, but i have never seen a map without a blue circle around my settler. Once I played an ice age map and there was ice every 10 squares around the settler, but the fat cross of the settler had grassland, river, 3 clams, plains hill and some forests and some 1 or 2 other resources.

Yep that's it. When the map is generated, it does something to make sure that wherever the settler is is a good spot (Judging from the number of maps I've seen in which you start in a lovely spot that's surrounded by tundra or something just outside the city radius, I suspect it places the settler randomly then improves the terrain in that vicinity as appropriate to ensure it's settle-able, but that's just an educated guess, I might be wrong).

Of course the big unknown here is that this is an Ainwood-tweaked map - hence no guarantee the settler is in a spot that would be blue-circled.

Of course the big unknown here is that this is an Ainwood-tweaked map - hence no guarantee the settler is in a spot that would be blue-circled.

I don't think that Ainwood tweaks the map so much to force us to move the settler to some other spot. (Ainwood - this is not intended to be an inspirational thought :D )

I've just been doing some experimenting with worldbuilder to see if I can resolve the answer to this question. What I found is:

-SNIP--


Last time we had this discussion, a code diver came up with the following (I forget who / thread / etc. so take with grain of salt)


Blue Circles are affected by HFC and Resources you have the technology for, if you can see them or not (Fog is totally ignored) I also think it doesn't blue circle cities you can't build (Too close to existing cities) but I don't know that 100%
Map start locations ARE affected by Resources you can't see. Very rarely you will start with your settler not on a blue circle, because of future resource availability.

I just quit a test game of my own. It would have been a success except that there was too much jungle to clear to get an early lead and Mad Monty was my neighbor. I was second only to Monty and appeasement didn't work. Without the jungle, I probably could have gotten much more commerce from cottages and a better tech situation.

Still, I liked the game. Like most of the test maps, I was on a continent with most of the other civs. Early religion gives a nice cultural boost. I flipped one city, but the push back on Monty's borders didn't make him too happy.

I'm going to try one more test game, just to get the feel of things.

I wonder if we're going to be on the big continent or the little continent. Or, maybe some other configuration will appear.

Went for cultural win on GOTM12 so really don't want to again this month, but with spiritual and the possibility of early religions-well...:mischief:

I'd like to have a look north to see if anything exists in the sea tiles above and west of penninsula. The tile 2nw of settler has a peculiar dot showing thru (and no I didn't spill on the screen:) ) I might move the settler on to the elephant for a peak and return if nothing interesting appears. I don't think 2 turns will hurt try at religion but haven't tested yet. Not much experience with world builder, hope someone can build test start.:D

Blue Circles are affected by HFC and Resources you have the technology for, if you can see them or not (Fog is totally ignored) I also think it doesn't blue circle cities you can't build (Too close to existing cities) but I don't know that 100%

This matches my recollection. A tile is blue-circled if it is close enough to your settler, visible to you, legal to build a city on, and it "scores higher" than any tile adjacent to it. The "score" is based on adding up values of tiles within its fat cross. Those values are used whether or not you can see the tile.

I would either settle in place, or on the ivory. Isn't there always a food bonus on land in the starting location (unless Ainwood edited it out)? If so then there will be sheep or pigs on the hill 2 west of the Ivory. On the Ivory gives you an extra hammer, and will allow a fishing village to the south, if desired, while still grabbing the silk and clams.

Also, with the silk and a workboat, you won't need a worker or a new worker tech until size 3 at least.

I'm playing a Warlords game right now where I grabbed Feudalism with the Oracle and then beelined to Guilds (through Theology, Paper, Education). I was able, on Monarch (v2.08) to build about 10 conquistadors and take out Kublai, who was twice my size, in about 8 turns - he didn't even have longbows, and the AI should be even slower in Vanilla without Blake's enhancements. And I even forgot to use Vassalage!

If I play this month, I'm going to try that strategy again, though I might detour for Currency and/or Code of Laws - my economy cratered after conquering the home continent because I didn't finish Code of Laws until after Kublai was eliminated. Heck, I didn't even have Sailing! I might have done better if I had a third trading partner though, so it may be even easier on this map.

A typical spiritual game that's going to involve some nice religion spreading, to up the economy, either by mouth or by conquisador :) There are prolly Aztecs and Inca's on the map as well ;)

Just hope we have some nice resources in the neighborhood...

I notice that there's no blue circles on the starting screenshot. I'm guessing Ainwood just happened to have them switched off when he took it. If so I'd be curious to switch them back on when I start the game and see if they do give any useful tips. (But obviously, if they take account only of information that you can see anyway, there's no point doing that).
An over-sight. First post updated with the map showing the blue circles.

Also updated the first post to note that we'll be usign the next version of the HOF mod - 1.61.009 (I'm assured this is a 'must have'! :lol: )

I don't really see an immediate benefit for the silks and the ivory is also not necessary until you actually get elephants. I'm therefore tempted to go exploring before settling or doing a palace swap later on. Maybe I'll just take a quick peek 1 north and if nothing interesting is found, settle on the ivory and not have my first turn lost to me.

So... I'm tempted to settle on the ivory, but I don't know what that would implicate for the source itself.

1. Does it give you +1 happy face immediately or after researching hunting or is even the wheel required?
2. Does it provide ivory for elephants?
3. It provides the capital center square with a total of 2F/2H/1C, right? or is it even 2F/2H/2C?

An over-sight. First post updated with the map showing the blue circles.


Cool! Thanks Ainwood.

Fascinating. So either the game is being particularly anal about its blue circles (which I have to say wouldn't surprise me) or there is something very juicy just West of the mountains. If I could afford to wait, I might be tempted to explore there before settling, but this setup looks perfect for early religion/science (start with mysticism, lots of commerce available right from the start, spiritual trait, a very powerful UU that comes later on, after a lot of science...) and I don't want to lose the chance to grab hinduism.


Also updated the first post to note that we'll be usign the next version of the HOF mod - 1.61.009 (I'm assured this is a 'must have'! :lol: )

:rotfl:

So... I'm tempted to settle on the ivory, but I don't know what that would implicate for the source itself.

1. Does it give you +1 happy face immediately or after researching hunting or is even the wheel required?
2. Does it provide ivory for elephants?
3. It provides the capital center square with a total of 2F/2H/1C, right? or is it even 2F/2H/2C?

1. You would need to research hunting (but not the wheel) for the happy face
2. Yes
3. You get 2F/2H/1C (that happens immediately, even before you research hunting)

Fascinating. So either the game is being particularly anal about its blue circles (which I have to say wouldn't surprise me) or there is something very juicy just West of the mountains.

Or all the tiles around the blue circle are just crap so that the one near the mountains has the blue circle.

But there might be something interesting on the hill NW or a stretegic resource nearby the settler, which is good. Also settling the ivory doesn't look to me as a good move as it might include more water tiles in the FC. And there's a lot of them there already.

Or all the tiles around the blue circle are just crap so that the one near the mountains has the blue circle.


Sorry, should've made my reasoning clearer. The blue circle has been placed on a square that doesn't have the fish in its radius, in preference to the next-door square that does. That seems to imply that there's something to the west that the computer thinks is worth more than the fish.

Sorry, should've made my reasoning clearer. The blue circle has been placed on a square that doesn't have the fish in its radius, in preference to the next-door square that does. That seems to imply that there's something to the west that the computer thinks is worth more than the fish.

I understad your reasoning and i also think that there is something valuable behind those mountains. But still the city with the fish would have 7 coastal tiles, 4 ocean with 1 fish and 1 lake and 3 montains which is way too many less usefull tiles. There might be just river grassland behind the mountains and it could compensate for thos ocean tiles.

I understad your reasoning and i also think that there is something valuable behind those mountains. But still the city with the fish would have 7 coastal tiles, 4 ocean with 1 fish and 1 lake and 3 montains which is way too many less usefull tiles. There might be just river grassland behind the mountains and it could compensate for thos ocean tiles.

OK yeah, I can see that point. It's possible the presence of the fish is outweighed in the computer's eye by lots of other less useful tiles.

Isabella is one of my favorite leaders. Not really exceptional at anything, but her traits and UU make her strong in pretty much every category. Plus Izzy is really annoying to have as an opponent, and this way we don't have to face her.

Starting with access to elephants sets us up for some really serious military potential. Not only are War Elephants great on their own, they're also the best counter to Conquistadors before gunpowder. But War Elephants of our own will neutralize any enemy elephants.

As for where to settle, I think the starting spot will prove superior to anything in the immediate vicinity. So what if that one fish is unworkable as a result? Fish are one of the most common resources in the game. Two north could conceivably be better. But it looks to me like the coast cuts west up there. If that's the case then there'd have to be some more seafood to the north to make it preferable to where we start.

I can't see the starting screen shot provided by ainwood ... couldn't see it last month either. I've had this problem since reinstalling Windows so maybe there is some sort of internet setting problem.

Thankfully I can download the practice game and track the pre-game discussion.

1. You would need to research hunting (but not the wheel) for the happy face
2. Yes
3. You get 2F/2H/1C (that happens immediately, even before you research hunting)
Thank you for the information.


The ocean to the north definately cuts to the west, at least 2 squares and north-north-west seems to be forest.

I think I will settle on the ivory and not lose my first turn. The hills to the north-west seem to be grassland, so a nice mining spot for the future. Additionally, the potential chopping of all the grassland forests allows fast creation of a settler and expanding to a better capital site.

I think the ivory/starting place site look good for a decent teching city, which is okay mid-game after you switch capital and get some cottages going and get food/commerce from the sea. I think the Colossus or the Great Lighthouse could be nice in this huge sea-map and you could choose to chop them with all those trees nearby... seems like a decent choice.

I think I will settle on the ivory.
1. Workboat (1F/2H tile)
2. Warrior (Clams + 2F/xx tile or Clams + 1F/2H tile)
3. Maybe grow to size 3 dependantly on outcome
4. Worker
5. Chop Settler
6. Expand
7. ??

And the sequence of teching will be.
1. Mining
2. Bronze Working -> find copper
3. Maybe press on to Iron working or go find out that horses are for riding and discover that square cement blocks don't pull the warchariots very fast.

Dependant:
4. Hunting (ivory bonus) and continuing: Archery

Settling ivory could be a good idea (although I doubt it) but doing it on turn one is way too risky production wise. You can’t walk away from two of only three known production tiles in the original starting position and blindly hope for replacement north of the woods as you press the build button. Turn two could make sense but only after moving the settler north to peek beyond the forest.

Another test save for your civving pleasure. Let me know if I missed anything.
143227 (HOF 1.61.008)

Certainly looks like I will be using my new favorite strategy....Oracle used for Feudalism (on the way to Guilds, great civics for early development and promoted units), early chariots for defense, horse archers for taking out a close civ and/or making sure I have Iron, mass upgrades to Conquistadors to take over the world. Elephant/Cat backup plan if horses or iron are no where nearby. Surely Ainwood wouldn't make it impossible to use our UU, he isn't nearly as evil as that Gyathaar guy.:D

Haven't decided on an exact tech path or settling spot until I mess around with a couple of test games but I am leaning towards going W with the warrior (NW on turn 2) and N then any of N/NW/W with the settler depending on what shows up after moving N. If something nice has shown up I will settle there, otherwise I will probably move back to the elephant and settle on it as the loss of one turn shouldn't hurt.

This one looks like fun.

I've wanted to use an Expansive leader to try the Feudalism slingshot.

We get the extra health bonus. Add Monarchy and fast workers into the mix and we can have a big population working lots of developed tiles. We even start with a happy bonus. Faster workers also give us better cottage spamming to get the requisite techs and then chop what we want quickly.

So. I'll probably build a workboat and a worker or two next, then a settler if I can get away with it. Research a religion since it seems within reach, then Bronze Working, then probably pottery or hunting depending on the surroundings.

This strategy may be good for any VC, but I'll probably go for Conquest or Domination again. With the emphasis on lots of fast workers I think this strat lends itself well to the economic needs of domination. Early Vassal Longbows will allow for taking out other civs' secondary cities early just to give 'em a good whack.

I'd probably settle in place. There's food, there's water, and the ivory and plains hill will allow for decent if not exactly super early production. I'm guessing with the high water Astronomy will be necessary, but with fractal maps you just never know.

EDIT: hmmm, looking at the test start, the above strategy doesn't look so hot anymore. Epic is too slow for me and Izzy's strengths are different. So, scratch that, sorry.

Jove, what do you mean by fast workers? Izzy has normal workers, the only civ with fast ones is India.

I've wanted to use an Expansive leader to try the Feudalism slingshot.

We get the extra health bonus. Add Monarchy and fast workers into the mix and we can have a big population working lots of developed tiles. We even start with a happy bonus. Faster workers also give us better cottage spamming to get the requisite techs and then chop what we want quickly.


Are you confusing vanilla expansive and warlords expansive, by any chance? ;)

I guess he refers to serfdom civic from feudalism, which allows worker to build improvements 50% faster.

I guess he refers to serfdom civic from feudalism, which allows worker to build improvements 50% faster.

Ah yes, that could be it. I was assuming (perhaps mistakenly) he was referring to the fast worker builds that expansive gives you in Warlords. Hence my post.

DS hangs head in embarrassment

Feudalism slingshot on Monarch?
With that start?
With a non-financial leader?

IMHO a suicide ... but if someone can manage it ... wow

It worths a test (in a test game, of course).

A question about the religion-path:
I assume it's obvious we take buddhism, but do we also need to take hinduism?
Sure, the extra culture and possible shrine is nice, but instead we could get BW much earlier.
I usually don't care much for religion. In this case it seems easier to go that way.
And what about Judaism? My preferred strategy on Monarch, sofar, has been to do a CoL slingshot and use the GP from Oracle to give me CS. But this means I have to delay masonry for a while. (which also delays monotheism)
In a testgame I was on a big island and founded 3 religions. When I met the other civs, they were locked into one huge judist block and teching like crazy. In that case, wouldn't it be better to leave hinduism alone? That way, it's easier to do a divide-and-conquer once the UU becomes available.

Yeah, I was thinking of fast workers from Feudalism. Coupled with the health bonus of Expansive and the happy bonus from Monarchy, we could have some very big, productive cities. What better strength does Izzy really have?

But I have to agree with BLubmuz... okay, maybe suicide is a strong word, but after trying a test game the Feudalism slingshot seems risky at best. If we even started with Mining we'd have a much better chance, but we don't...

Is it possible for a Great Prophet to lightbulb Feudalism? Say you built Stonehenge, then a 'fast' temple and put up a priest, then perhaps chopped the Parthenon (probably in a 2nd city)... we could get more than a few prophets with a start like that, for what it's worth.

I can't see the starting screen shot provided by ainwood ... couldn't see it last month either. I've had this problem since reinstalling Windows so maybe there is some sort of internet setting problem.

Thankfully I can download the practice game and track the pre-game discussion.
What do you actually see? Do you see a red "X" or similar? It might be that windows security settings have changed not to display pictures.

Try downloading it from here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm13large.jpg

A question about the religion-path:
I assume it's obvious we take buddhism, but do we also need to take hinduism?
Sure, the extra culture and possible shrine is nice, but instead we could get BW much earlier.
I usually don't care much for religion. In this case it seems easier to go that way.
And what about Judaism? My preferred strategy on Monarch, sofar, has been to do a CoL slingshot and use the GP from Oracle to give me CS. But this means I have to delay masonry for a while. (which also delays monotheism)
In a testgame I was on a big island and founded 3 religions. When I met the other civs, they were locked into one huge judist block and teching like crazy. In that case, wouldn't it be better to leave hinduism alone? That way, it's easier to do a divide-and-conquer once the UU becomes available.

Another option is to skip Buddhism, letting the AI take that one and then setting up whoever founds it as your (and your allies') enemy. Then, as your post suggests, there are many other opportunities for later religions, and you can usually squeeze in a couple "worker techs" like agriculture and mining after poly and before any other religion you might want.

How about taking Buddhism and letting the AI take Hinduism? This would (if you're successful) delay anyone who is trying to found Buddhism to start. Of course this sucks if you feel the need to build the Parthenon, but I find that in trades the AI values Meditation more than Polytheism (per beaker).

As for the start, I might settle at 2N or N,NE at the cost of 1 turn. Granted this will lose Buddhism, but there's always Hinduism.

Are you guys really looking forward to founding budhism? My experience is that no matter what I do, the AI researches budhism faster than me on monarch and above. So I'm heading towards hinduism for sure and let the AI have budhism.

If you are going for a cultural victory, I can understand you go after a religion.

For all other victory conditions, what about not founding any early religion?
Benefits:
- More AI will lose more time teching religious techs.
- More religions will be founded in "the other continent".
- You will have useful worker techs sooner.

If and when you need a religion, you can always found conf or tao, or even better, use one religion that has spread to you and let the founder AI spread it to all your cities with his missionaries.

The combo
- budism: early spreading by early missionaries through the monastaries
- early stonehenge (+ early oracle): quick Great Prophet for a shrine
is nice for early economy boost

If you are going for a cultural victory, I can understand you go after a religion.

For all other victory conditions, what about not founding any early religion?
Benefits:
- More AI will lose more time teching religious techs.
- More religions will be founded in "the other continent".
- You will have useful worker techs sooner.


I'm going for Hinduism since I want it to spread and make AI cities visible. I also like the faster border expansion to provide better warning for barbarians, and hopefully my second city will be close enough to work tiles in my capitals cultural border. Also, I don't need to build obelisk in second city if religion spread. I did not plan to found a religion, but since it's a big map, there will be lots of cities and the shrine may be profitable. It's not a simple choice, and perhaps not even the best choice. It just suits my playing style.

I don't want to race for mid/late religions, since I prefer to research non-AI tech (Literature for example) for trade.

This is how I plan to play:

Settle on Ivory, work forest until border exansion, then work silk
Build workboat for clam
Research Hinduism
Move the worker clockwise around capital to explore if the north cost is suitable for settling (fish/clam/crabs).

If I find a very attractive spot for second city and predict that I won't have problems with barbarians, I will build a settler (I will wait for two turns for population expansion and waste two turns of production). Else I will build two warriors and grow city to size 3 before building settler. Research will then be hunting, animal husbandry, archery, wheel, writing and alphabet (at around 800 BC). A.H. will enable me to plan second city. Extra warriors will enable me to risk a worker steal or send first warrior on exploration. Second city will not cost maintenance on large map if it's close enough...

Summary:
build workboat, warrior, warrior, settler, worker?, archer?, archer?
research polytheism, hunting, animal husbandry, archery, wheel, writing, alphabet

Regarding settling on ivory (something I did not consider until reading the post in this thread) : the extra production is permanent and does not need to be worked, which will enable me to work another tile. This "another tile" should be compared to a camped ivory (1/3/1) or rather (1/2/1) which is the net difference. This is comparable to a mined hill, so it's not a big deal.

The short term drawback is that I can't work silk, which will reduce my commerce with one for eight turns (until border expansion). Research points will then be reduced from about 13 to 12, so it's not a big deal. On turn 16/17 I can work clam which provides 2 commerce, so I don't even think polytheism is going to be delayed. Another benefit is that I don't have to build a worker at the start (which suits my research path).

I also consider playing challenger to increase tech trade. Perhaps hubris or plain stupidity, but if vanillla Civ is going to be Blakefied, it may be the last chance to play challenger for me ;-)

The combo
- budism: early spreading by early missionaries through the monastaries
- early stonehenge (+ early oracle): quick Great Prophet for a shrine
is nice for early economy boost

That's very true.

Now, early settlers and early workers (and also early axes) are nice for early economic boost, too.

I will invest my early hammers on those, not on religion. I think it is best. I could be wrong.

In a lot of test games, I didn't manage to found either buddhism or hinduism working a tile with only 1 commerce. Only when working landtiles with 2 commerce would ensure me either buddhism or hinduism. This might mean that you'd have to work a coast tile (1f/2c) (at least until border expansion for the fish). Quite a slow start, although settling on the ivory would make up for some of this slow growth through the extra hammer for the workboat...

The lake gives two food and two coin

That's very true.

Now, early settlers and early workers (and also early axes) are nice for early economic boost, too.

I will invest my early hammers on those, not on religion. I think it is best. I could be wrong.

ISTM that both strategies are good ones, and either strategy, if used effectively, could give an extremely good game (Assuming you are going for a victory type that requires lots of science. Obviously, if you are going for early conquest/domination, then your settler/axeman strategy is likely to be best).

Going for early settlers/workers/axes is certainly less risky. There's a lot more that can go wrong when going for early religion/wonder. You can get beaten to it. You can get attacked at a point where you're unable to defend yourself adequately. You can't afford to explore and find a possibly-better city location before settling. You can lose out in the land-grab, especially if you have a very near neighbour (quite plausible given the high sea level). You are likely to be settling with less knowledge of where resources are. OTOH the rewards can be huge too: If played right, civil service in the early AD years, for a start. Or an early colossus and a boost down the road to conquistadors if you go that way.

Perhaps the perceived greater risk and challenge is one reason why I like the religion-route, I don't know. Certainly, if there is any game where early religion looks favourable, this one is it, what with starting with mysticism, having early commerce available (because you start with fishing and there's a lake), being spiritual, and having a powerful UU that requires a lot of science before you can build it.

What do you actually see? Do you see a red "X" or similar? It might be that windows security settings have changed not to display pictures.

Try downloading it from here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm13large.jpg

Figured out it was being blocked by my security program. Thanks ainwood!

If you are going for a cultural victory, I can understand you go after a religion.

For all other victory conditions, what about not founding any early religion?

My experience is that founding a religion is more valuable for space race and especially fast, mostly peaceful diplo games. As I know you know already, founding religions is an optional and often not optimal strategy for cultural games.

The value of getting your buildings up at plus 25% hammers from organized religion is well worth taking into consideration, I believe, as is the ability to build missionaries without monasteries, especially for diplo games. For these reasons, I find Judaism to be the most valuable religion to found if pursuing a religious strategy, and since Hinduism is along the way, I usually try to grab that too.

Of course in some games, like the last WOTM, this approach would probably be suicide, given the delay in production resulting from later acquisition of worker techs, but in this game--with the large and uncrowded map--it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Wow... the last test game wasn't "uncrowded" at all!

Anyone have another one handy? I love test games... :)

Looks like Santa didn't bring us that great starting location we wanted. It's kind of wrapped in drab brown paper with "some assembly required" written all over it.

The last few starts have been sweet: GOTM12 – grassland pig, 2 hills/plains/gold/mining; 11 – 2 clams/fishing, 5 river grassland/agriculture, 3 grassland hills; 10 – fish, corn/agriculture, cow, 3 grassland hills/mining; 9 – 6 floodplains/agriculture, hills/plains gold; 8 – grassland pig/hunting, fish, hills/grassland/gold/mining.

I can understand all the discussion about moving and maybe even far away from the starting location. Moving in Epic isn’t as penalizing as faster speeds so it seems reasonable to send the warrior east and the settler north to see what’s out there. As I mentioned in a previous post it’s too risky for me to settle ivory on turn one as you have to hope you don’t end up with a severely poor production capital.

Settling in place isn’t that bad, it’s just not great. It provides about the same hammer production we’ve grown accustom to (three tiles with 3-4 hammers each). We’ll need mining, bronze working and hunting but these are usually teched early anyway. Commerce will be fair to middling unless there is gold in the darken hill to the NW. Food, I think is the biggest issue in that it is relatively scarce and will require a lot of techs and buildings to get up to speed such as sailing/lighthouse, wheel/pottery/granary, agriculture and possibly AH if there are pigs/sheep on the NW hill. We’ve been spoiled with grassland pigs, fish and gold with their requisite techs and then after a couple of additional techs it’s been off to the Oracle SS derby. Not this time.

Moving in Epic isn’t as penalizing as faster speeds so it seems reasonable to send the warrior east ...<snip>

I do hope he can swim ;)

I do hope he can swim ;)

This is why I should just settle in place!

From my last post and the last testgame from svelte, it gives me some hope to go for following scenario:
- tech : poly, hunting, mining, BW, wheel, priest, AH, writing, alphabet, Col(Oracle), Literature
- production: WB, worker, barracks/?, switch to settler (chop) on size 3, continue previous, oracle, temple, library

I get the Oracle by 1030BC with only 1 chop and my GP around 500BC (temple used to get Priest). Only drawback I see, is that the capital gets stuck at size 5 for quite some time.
Hopefully I can settle 2nd city near some copper and axe-rush the nearest civ after I traded some techs ;) .

From my last post and the last testgame from svelte, it gives me some hope to go for following scenario:
- tech : poly, hunting, mining, BW, wheel, priest, AH, writing, alphabet, Col(Oracle), Literature
- production: WB, worker, barracks/?, switch to settler (chop) on size 3, continue previous, oracle, temple, library

I get the Oracle by 1030BC with only 1 chop and my GP around 500BC (temple used to get Priest). Only drawback I see, is that the capital gets stuck at size 5 for quite some time.
Hopefully I can settle 2nd city near some copper and axe-rush the nearest civ after I traded some techs ;) .
Did you build the Oracle in your capital or in a second city? And did you build your own worker?

I'm going for Hinduism since I want it to spread and make AI cities visible. I also like the faster border expansion to provide better warning for barbarians, and hopefully my second city will be close enough to work tiles in my capitals cultural border. Also, I don't need to build obelisk in second city if religion spread.

Waiting for your religion to spread to your 2nd city can be a long and frustrating process. :(

I have also played the test game (thanks svelte) and I managed to use the Oracle to get feudalism in 800BC. The problem was that my empire was not much developed as I had to skip more worker techs. I also had only 1 worker which was stolen, but had nothing to do.

I have researched Medit, Hunt, Min, BW, AH, Writing, Priest, Monarchy and the research took some time. I also chopped the oracle and use citizence to generate beakers.

I played also about 10 random starts with the same setting and discovered this (probably well known):

I have played the first 20 turns and then looked into worldbuilder:

1) The only civs which are able to outtech you to a religion (start with myst) are India, HC, Saladin, Monte.
2) Saladin and HC almost never techs first towards religion
3) India almost ever researches meditation (Asoka less than Gandhi)
4) Out of the 10 games 5 didn't include India or monte and I was able to reach budhism working a 2/1/1 tile.
5) Out of the 5 games which included Asoka, gandhi, Monte I was beaten to meditation working a 2/0/2 tile, but I would found hinduism in 4 of those cases. In 1 out of the 10 games both budhism and hind were FIDL. this was due to gandhi and monte both going for a different religion.

So I'm heading towards poly.

I have also played the test game (thanks svelte) and I managed to use the Oracle to get feudalism in 800BC. The problem was that my empire was not much developed as I had to skip more worker techs. I also had only 1 worker which was stolen, but had nothing to do.

It's also risky because 800BC gives you a good chance of missing the Oracle. All my experience on monarch is that you can expect the Oracle to be built by an AI any time from 1300BC onwards. Maybe earlier but that's unusual. (Not particularly tested with the same settings as GOTM13, but there's nothing unusual about those settings that I'd expect to impact much on the date).

Anyone have another one handy? I love test games... :)

Well why play another test game when you can pick up the real game? It's already the 30th, anyway... :lol:

It's also risky because 800BC gives you a good chance of missing the Oracle. All my experience on monarch is that you can expect the Oracle to be built by an AI any time from 1300BC onwards. Maybe earlier but that's unusual. (Not particularly tested with the same settings as GOTM13, but there's nothing unusual about those settings that I'd expect to impact much on the date).

That's true. I could build it around 1000BC if managed the production right. But it's still risky. When the Oracle was due in 1 turn I waited, how long it will take for the AI to finish it. And it happened some 5 turns later, so it was pretty close.

Did you build the Oracle in your capital or in a second city? And did you build your own worker?

production done all in capital
build my own worker
production of second city is for axe-rushing

I've played a few test games and as long as we can make a decent number of contacts I am leaning towards a research path of Med > Priest > Writing > Alpha (trade for all the worker/early techs) > Monarchy > Feudalism from Oracle. This has worked in 3 of 4 test games so far the one time it didn't work someone built the Oracle around 1300BC. I mainly worked the clam, lake, and spice tiles to get to Alpha as soon as possible as it takes quite awhile to research it. I need to try again using a Scientist or 2 after Writing to see how much that speeds it up.

I am still formulating a plan for if there are only a couple of contacts by the time I finish Priesthood or Writing. I think at that point I would probably go to the worker techs and switch to taking MC with the Oracle.

Comment: I’m glad ainwood mentioned Conquistadors get a defensive bonus. That isn’t clear in the Civilopedia or other reference works I’ve read.

Question: I’m confused why the Units section (found on the Main Page of the site) describes Conquistadors as follows:

Unique unit for Spain; Replaces Knight
2 first strikes
Immune to first strikes
+50% vs. Melee Units

I don’t see any reference to “2 first strikes” in the Civilopedia or anywhere else. Is this a typo?

ISTM that both strategies are good ones, and either strategy, if used effectively, could give an extremely good game (Assuming you are going for a victory type that requires lots of science. Obviously, if you are going for early conquest/domination, then your settler/axeman strategy is likely to be best).

In studying a lot of the top games (highest scores, fastest finishes, etc.) my observation is in agreement with yours, that early conquest/domination doesn't rely much at all on science and focuses on an early and relentless axeman, horse archer, etc. rush.

The highest scoring games are also typically conquest/domination but they have a completely different approach. In these games there is a furious race through the tech tree to strategic units such as Macemen/Knights then Grenadiers/Calvary. The end points seem to be Chemistry, Military Trad and Biology and they get there fast! After Biology everything in sight is farmed (shooting pop through the roof) while the last few civs are crushed. How they race through the tech tree is simply astonishing and is applicable to most other victory types. Conceptually I'm beginning to understand what they're doing but I'm light-years away from mastering in practice.

I played also about 10 random starts with the same setting and discovered this (probably well known):

I have played the first 20 turns and then looked into worldbuilder:

1) The only civs which are able to outtech you to a religion (start with myst) are India, HC, Saladin, Monte.
2) Saladin and HC almost never techs first towards religion
3) India almost ever researches meditation (Asoka less than Gandhi)
4) Out of the 10 games 5 didn't include India or monte and I was able to reach budhism working a 2/1/1 tile.
5) Out of the 5 games which included Asoka, gandhi, Monte I was beaten to meditation working a 2/0/2 tile, but I would found hinduism in 4 of those cases. In 1 out of the 10 games both budhism and hind were FIDL. this was due to gandhi and monte both going for a different religion.

So I'm heading towards poly.

In the game we're about to play, say you want to go for Meditation. You check the demographics screen and see your GNP is #1 but tied with the "rival best". Lets say this rival is also spiritual and going for Mediation ... who does the tie go to?

In the game we're about to play, say you want to go for Meditation. You check the demographics screen and see your GNP is #1 but tied with the "rival best". Lets say this rival is also spiritual and going for Mediation ... who does the tie go to?

The AI gets it. IIRC, on monarch, the AI gets 10% more science for its beakers than you do. Not only that but its cities require less food to grow, so if you're both working the same amount of food, its capital will grow to size 2 (potential for more commerce) a couple of turns before yours does.

The only way you'll get the early religion is either if you're lucky enough to have no other AI that starts with mysticism and is researching the same thing, or if you sacrifice production to work the lake (2 commerce) and the AI is working a tile that has zero or 1 commerce, then you should be just getting enough additional commerce to beat the AI. I think (not absolutely certain) that you get your turn first, so if you do discover the tech on the same turn as the AI, you'll get the religion.

Well why play another test game when you can pick up the real game? It's already the 30th, anyway... :lol:

So I can be better prepared! (And I was hoping to play one last night...)

Settling ivory could be a good idea (although I doubt it) but doing it on turn one is way too risky production wise. You can’t walk away from two of only three known production tiles in the original starting position and blindly hope for replacement north of the woods as you press the build button. Turn two could make sense but only after moving the settler north to peek beyond the forest.Well, I'm not a great tactician so it'll probably backfire on me.

My thought was that the +1 hammer in the capital would give an early bonus on production for an early warrior and workboat and after that I will be creating a worker which does fine with just food tiles.

After that I won't care much about production because I will be chopping the forests and create a settler to sit on a better capital spot. The current spot will then be developed into an early science/gold city, if AIs permit me and perhaps some sacrifices will allow me to insert a library into the site. Additionally, the hills north-west when mined would allow a second production site when needed to build that library.

It also means that I would never need to defend the ivory from raiding barbarians or AIs and I can focus on city protection for the first few years.

My thought was that the +1 hammer in the capital would give an early bonus on production for an early warrior and workboat and after that I will be creating a worker which does fine with just food tiles.

In my test game, i earned eight turns in work boat production (15 instead of 23) and I lost zero turns in research by settling on the Ivory. You can't work the silk during the first 8 turns (until border expansion) but you get the workboat out 8 turns earlier, and the clam provides 2 commerce (compared to 1 commerce from silk). End result = 0 diff in commerce. I don't know what happens if you start with a warrior though.

But we all play differently, so I guess you should follow your instinct and learn from that instead of listening to me :lol:

The problem I have with settling on the ivory, and the reason I probably won't do it (may yet change my mind), is this: Sure, in the very earliest turns, you gain the hammer/turn (and you also gain an extra forest to chop), but in the slightly longer term, you lose the 3-hammer hill-plain-forest, as well as the chance for a camped 1F/3H/1C ivory square. Both of those represent a significant loss to potential early-game production. There may of course be something to the north to compensate but that's not guaranteed.

Thanks for the insights. I think I may gamble the early production and see where the early expansion takes me.

Or I stick with the settler spot which due to the extra grassland compared to coastal may result in a better science city (cottage wise).

Dilemmas...

The only way you'll get the early religion is either if you're lucky enough to have no other AI that starts with mysticism and is researching the same thing, or if you sacrifice production to work the lake (2 commerce) and the AI is working a tile that has zero or 1 commerce, then you should be just getting enough additional commerce to beat the AI. I think (not absolutely certain) that you get your turn first, so if you do discover the tech on the same turn as the AI, you'll get the religion.


I think it is usual that the first settlers start near fresh water source, mainly river. fro the test games, I checked in the worldbuilder and usualy 3/4 of the AI started on a river, some with FP. So the only way to found budhism is I think if there aren't civs starting with mysticism, which I doubt.

I've played a few test games and as long as we can make a decent number of contacts I am leaning towards a research path of Med > Priest > Writing > Alpha (trade for all the worker/early techs) > Monarchy > Feudalism from Oracle. This has worked in 3 of 4 test games so far the one time it didn't work someone built the Oracle around 1300BC. I mainly worked the clam, lake, and spice tiles to get to Alpha as soon as possible as it takes quite awhile to research it. I need to try again using a Scientist or 2 after Writing to see how much that speeds it up.

I am still formulating a plan for if there are only a couple of contacts by the time I finish Priesthood or Writing. I think at that point I would probably go to the worker techs and switch to taking MC with the Oracle.

That's an interesting plan. I wasn't considering researching Alpha early, due to lack of commerce. It was a good move in GOTM12 with the mined gold hill. But after some thinking I might try it as well, though I will go for poly to get a religion by the way.

You won't be able to use the scientist as it requires the library. You won't be able to build it yourself and you won't have BW to either whip it or chop it.

I will settle in place. I agree with DynamicSpirit that there's probably a hidden resource somwhere, either the grassland or the hill NW. So with 2 hills, ivory and forests the city is a good eary production city.
Even without any additional, still hidden, resource, I think the spot is decent enough to found in place. Somebody else here put it quite well when he mentioned that we are probably spoiled by previous games (I've only played the last one with two gold hills in place, but please don't tell me you are looking for something comparable to that on this map...).

I hope we have horses and iron nearby and I won't end like in GOTM12 when I cheared to have knights, but didn't have iron to build them :mad:
Well, you could have explored SW of capital with a galley to find the iron near that crap island there, at least by the time you had discovered Guilds :-). (Or am I missing something, I didn't settle there until very late. But this is GOTM13, not 12, anyway...).

--Sigi

My settler will move N and NW on the first turn to take a look. Then he can keep on wandering. Or he might come back to one of the tiles that have been discussed, settling on turn 3. Not a big loss on Epic, and I will settle on the best spot, making an informed decision.
I will lose my chances to have an early religion, so what?
I don't understand why everybody is so pessimistic about getting an early R if they make a move or two before settling. Surely, your chances of missing out on ERs will be a bit higher in this case, but "losing your chances" -- I don't think so. This is only Monarch, and you have Meditation already and are near that lake. Maybe I would go straight for Hinduism after taking two turns before settling, but IMHO your chances are really good to get to it first on this difficulty (with the lake or possibly something even better to the west).

I've just played a WL game on Monarch with Genghis, and when the first hut gave me Meditation, I went straight for Hinduism, got it and Buddhism only came several turns later (Gandhi). I did not have a commerce bonus available (only the 10 beakers you are guaranteed to have from any reasonable position). This is just to illustrate my point about early religions on Monarch.

Confucianism is very easy to get on Monarch, it spreads faster and it brings a free missionary.
This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?

On the other hand, I would like to suggest that the HOF MOD eliminates the possibility to see the blue circles, specially if it is true that they use information the human can not yet see.
I would really like to know if this is really true (the bit about the hidden information). Apart from that I think the blue circle suggestions are a lot of crap more often than not...

--Sigi

Maybe I'm wrong as I didn't play so many maps, but i have never seen a map without a blue circle around my settler. Once I played an ice age map and there was ice every 10 squares around the settler, but the fat cross of the settler had grassland, river, 3 clams, plains hill and some forests and some 1 or 2 other resources.
I don't remember if there was a blue circle, but lately I started a Huge/Temperate/Continents game, and the computer put me on the south pole, with only ice to the north and a bit of tundra to the east, plus an icelocked fish to the SW. The position was just plain horrible. I made a few moves to the norths with my settler, and it would have taken me about 5 or 6 just to get to a starting position with no Ice/Tundra in the fat cross. Of course I regenerated the map, I'm not a masochist :-).

Only to refute your argument that the computer always puts the human into a decent position. Most of the time is does, but it's not guaranteed. And the blue circles are a load of BS anyway in most cases :-).

--Sigi

I don't understand why everybody is so pessimistic about getting an early R if they make a move or two before settling. Surely, your chances of missing out on ERs will be a bit higher in this case, but "losing your chances" -- I don't think so.


Strictly speaking you are correct in that it is a reduction in probability rather than going to no chance at all. It is nevertheless a very significant reduction in probability - big enough I think to justify the pessimism. Thing is, your most dangerous competitor for this is an AI that starts with mysticism and chooses to research polytheism or meditation first. The AI has the monarch-level bonuses which will give it a couple of turns lead over you in getting the tech. You can counter that by using the highest-possible commerce squares (eg. the lake) in the hope that the AI is using a production, not a commerce square. If that's the case, then you'll win, but there'll probably be only a turn or two in it, and in that case (which is very plausible) spending those couple of turns at the beginning exploring will very likely make the difference.

(about confucianism)

This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?


I'm not aware that it does. I think the higher spread is entirely a consequence of starting with the free missionary. (Plus once he's seeded the 2nd city, there's more cities it can spread from. As for Confucianism being easy to get: Basically, if you beeline straight for the Oracle, you will usually build it on monarch, then you can claim COL/confucianism as the free tech (as long as you had researched writing). It's incredibly unlikely at that point that anyone else will have already researched COL the slow way.


I would really like to know if this is really true (the bit about the hidden information). Apart from that I think the blue circle suggestions are a lot of crap more often than not...


Well my own testing with worldbuilder certainly seems to indicate that blue circles take account of terrain you haven't yet explored, and from the discussion here, it seems other people have independently come to the same conclusion.

My experience is that founding a religion is more valuable for space race and especially fast, mostly peaceful diplo games. As I know you know already, founding religions is an optional and often not optimal strategy for cultural games.
But what if we want to win Culturally and find out that before/without Astronomy we won't get access to enough religions (to pursue the Cathedral path, at least)?
(In my current Monarch game all the religions up to Taoism got founded on the other continent. Unfortunately I was not the one to discover Taoism (it was Mansa Musa, ouch, and by now the entire continent is Taoist, and he's got the shrine...). This is just to show a scenario where no own religions can hurt for reasons other than going for cultural win). When going for culture, I at least want to know if I'm isolated before deciding on how many religions of my own I'm going to found, so in this case, with the lake, I guess if playing cultural you absolutely should go for at least two early Rs. Just my two cents (I haven't decided yet what strategy I'm going to pursue, maybe not cultural, just did in GOTM12).

--Sigi

Strictly speaking you are correct in that it is a reduction in probability rather than going to no chance at all. It is nevertheless a very significant reduction in probability

After the couple test games I would say that moving your settler for couple of turns (3-4) has no effect on your ability to found an ER.

Either there is an AI who start with mysticism and chooses the research the religion, or there is not such an AI. In the first case the AI will beat you to it also if you work a 2c tile by 1 turn. In the second case the 4 turns won't matter.

(confucianism)

I think that it spreads faster. nothing to support, just a couple of examples where I had settled more cities and confu spreaded to all of them within a couple of turns. And I don't experience this with the ER. But it might as well depend on the available trade routes.

This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?

I am afraid I don't have a link to the relevant thread, but this has been discussed in another GOTM pre-game and it is said that the XML files show a higher 'natural' spreading rate for the later religions, in some 3 tiers (Budd, Hind, Jud low; Conf & Christ med; Tao & Islam high). Nothing very meaningful though, something like .5/.6/.7 rates. Maybe the experts can confirm this.

But what if we want to win Culturally and find out that before/without Astronomy we won't get access to enough religions (to pursue the Cathedral path, at least)?
(In my current Monarch game all the religions up to Taoism got founded on the other continent. Unfortunately I was not the one to discover Taoism (it was Mansa Musa, ouch, and by now the entire continent is Taoist, and he's got the shrine...). This is just to show a scenario where no own religions can hurt for reasons other than going for cultural win). When going for culture, I at least want to know if I'm isolated before deciding on how many religions of my own I'm going to found, so in this case, with the lake, I guess if playing cultural you absolutely should go for at least two early Rs. Just my two cents (I haven't decided yet what strategy I'm going to pursue, maybe not cultural, just did in GOTM12).

--Sigi

Well, yeah, if isolated on a small continent or an island, then early religions might be preferable (I did say "often not optimal" :) ). Still, I've found that even in these situations, you can make up for the lack of early religions by going for Confuscism, Christianity, and Taoism (preferably, Islam if not). Three religions is enough to achieve a solid early cultural win if you build the major religious buildings early.

There really are quite a few variables--map size, type, presence or lack of religious neighbors, randomness in religious spread, difficulty level etc.--so that no one path is optimal all the time, obviously. And our game here is quite ambiguous in this respect--middling difficulty, unpredictable fractal map--so that it's really hard to say before starting what will work best.

But if you can win without founding early religions--and have the luck or the strategic acumen to have one or two of them spread to you--then you are probably in a better position than if you found them yourself, since you can focus on other important early techs. Of course, if it turns out you are alone on a continent, for example, then you will likely regret not going for Hindu>Judaism>Christianity.

I haven't decided what victory condition to go for yet, myself. It's hard to decide because there are so many games out there for which we don't have results yet. If I knew that one of my recent games was a medal winner (I think I may have won the fastest diplo in WOTM2, for example, but I'm not sure), then I wouldn't go for that condition. I think I may wait a while before getting into this game to see if any results get posted for previous games.

By the way, does anyone know if the ratio for the number of temples needed to construct cathedrals and such increases on a large map the way it does from a small to a standard map? I very seldom play on larger than standard maps and haven't encountered this situation. This would be good information to know for anyone considering a cultural win.

cathedrals still require 3 temples per cathedral, however, national wonders such as Forbidden Palace and Oxford University now require 7 of their respective required buildings and I would assume the others(Red Cross, IronWorks) do as well. The Palace still requires just 4 cities to move though.

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.

As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.

I've started a couple of test games, using the same set up conditions but random map, which has given me some ideas. Firstly, I shall be starting at Adventurer, as Monarch level is punching way above my weight :eek:

Also, I'm planning to be more war-like than usual. In both test games I was next to Monty, who continually attacked me so I've got a lot better at warmongering. Maybe foolish, but I think I can challenge the AI best at battling, rather than city production.

My plan is to emphasise military techs, build at most 4 cities, maybe get attacked which will strengthen my units, then choose the right time to expand by conquest. Maybe get Conquistador ASAP.

Any advice gratefully received.....:confused:

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.


'Easy' is always relative to how much Civ4 experience you have.


As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.

I've usually decided what victory type I'm going for even before the game details have been announced - my decision will be based on nothing more than what I most feel like doing next month. Civ 4 allows lots of different strategies, and I like using the GOTM to try out different strategies to see if I can improve how well I can implement them.

Then when Ainwood/Gyathaar posts the starting screenshot and game details, I use that information to decide what strategy to pursue in the BC years, aiming towards my chosen victory type. These days I'd be very unlikely to change my chosen victory type in the light of what the starting map shows (though I may change it during the course of the game if circumstances dictate, and indeed did so in GOTM12 - see that final spoiler ;) ). The reason is I view the GOTM not so much as a competition against the AI but more as a friendly competition against the other people entering. So if the starting information looks really unfavourable for the victory type I've chosen, then it makes no odds to me: Sure, that makes it a harder challenge for me, but it makes it equally a harder challenge for everyone else who's going for the same victory type (and may reduce the number of people going for that victory type. Less competition :lol: ).

In terms of advice, best thing I can say is: Make sure that right from the start you remain focused on your victory (spaceship in this case) and on your chosen strategy to achieve it. Make sure every decision you make is guided by the long-term strategic implications of that decision, as well as any short-term advantage. (But at the same time, if circumstances turn out to make your chosen strategy unworkable - which I'm sure happens to everyone, don't be afraid to rethink it).

And good luck! Great to have you in the competition ;) May you score a stunning victory this time (just so long as you don't score any higher than me :mischief: )

Any advice gratefully received.....:confused:

Perhaps the best advice is to be sure to browse the war academy section of the CFC site. Lots of good basic articles, as well as more advanced ones.

In my opinion, winning from a very small empire takes a lot of skill (more than I have), so I have tended to go for expansion so that I am at least as big as the top AI in cities and territory. Since you will want aluminum for the space race, a certain amount of size will improve your odds of having it once you can see it.

Expansion has its downsides: war weariness, high maintenance costs. So be sure to build those courthouses and the forbidden palace to control that, and don't expand too fast until these are available.

City specialization helps too. I am still learning the details, but as an example, having a city or two full of scientist specialists who still make flasks even when the slider is at 0% science is very useful. Decide what certain cities will focus on (there is a war academy article on this topic) and optimize that in the city with choice of buildings, specialists and national wonders.

Also, if the AI percieves you to be weak, they will attack you (sometimes regardless of relations), so keep a respectable defensive force, even when you are focusing on tech growth. Having a specialized military city that pumps these out even when focusing on tech works for this.

Perhaps the hardest thing is keeping tech parity. Get alphabet in the BC's, find all the AI, and trade, trade, trade! If (or should I say when) the AI are ahead in tech, don't research what they already have, research what they do not have. Then trade one novel tech with 3 or 4 AI to backfill 3 or 4 techs that you are missing. Even if the trades are uneven (you get a cheaper tech for your more expensive tech), do it in most cases since if you can do it several times for the one tech, you are still ahead. And if you don't trade, the AI will get that tech shortly and you end up with nothing.

You said that you have started some test games, and my advice would be to finish one or two of them. It is the mid to late game that the AI will outrun you in tech if you don't get used to the trading techniques, so get some mid and late game practice. And if you have never used or been abused by 20th century weapons, play out long enough to experience that.

dV

I'm quite inexperienced with anything higher than Warlord, but have decided to give this one a try. I think I've absorbed a bit of the advice from earlier in the thread, but still have a few questions, which are likely quite naive:

1) I learned about the CS slingshot in the fall and managed to use it in a Prince-level practice game. I see people proposing to use the Oracle for Feudalism instead of Civil Service. Do you go for Feudalism if you're going for a conquest victory, and CS for something more peaceful? I imagine warlikes would also go for Theology for the extra experience for new units, too?

2) I have never tried a game without early religion, and am not sure I want to try now for the first time on Monarch. So,
2a)Is Hinduism better to go for than Buddhism?
2b) If I decided to go for the CS slingshot, should I skip the early religions in favour of confucianism, or does that arrive too late?

4)From some comments it seems as though having a religion in a city helps culture. I wasn't aware of this -- does it give +1 culture or something like that?

4) Organized religion has high maintenance, so I have been avoiding it for many turns in practice games. Any advice on how soon to use it?

1) I learned about the CS slingshot in the fall and managed to use it in a Prince-level practice game. I see people proposing to use the Oracle for Feudalism instead of Civil Service. Do you go for Feudalism if you're going for a conquest victory, and CS for something more peaceful?

I believe people go for Feudalism because CS is very hard to pull off on Monarch unless you have a gold or a gems or a silver in your start.

And good luck! Great to have you in the competition ;) May you score a stunning victory this time (just so long as you don't score any higher than me :mischief: )

Thanks for the all the advice:salute:

I was not sure about entering GOTM13. After owning the game for less than a month, I thought maybe it's pointless. Perhaps I should spend a few months learning the game at lower levels. Then I realised that I can do that anyway, and do the GOTM in parallel. What's special about the GOTM is the level of open discussion by you experts about the same game that I'm playing. So this makes it excellent for learning. Also, I put more effort into GOTM 12 and will do for GOTM 13, than if I was just playing with no competition. And this is far better than being thrashed at multiplayer!

On GOTM13, I do intend to expand, but through conquest rather than building my own cities. Still not sure as since previous post, the continual wars in my trial game have eventually ground me down. The Aztecs just won't stay at peace. By around 1000 AD I had 2 more civs declaring war with me. Obviously they saw that I was weakened. Now with 3 enemies I'm beginning to really struggle to keep up.

This seems like a downward spiral - is there any way to reverse it or is it a matter of not getting into it in the first place? The biggest damage seems to come from losing tile improvements, so I need to add 'defend improvements' to the ever increasing list of things to do.:aargh:

On GOTM13, I do intend to expand, but through conquest rather than building my own cities. Still not sure as since previous post, the continual wars in my trial game have eventually ground me down. The Aztecs just won't stay at peace. By around 1000 AD I had 2 more civs declaring war with me. Obviously they saw that I was weakened. Now with 3 enemies I'm beginning to really struggle to keep up.

This seems like a downward spiral - is there any way to reverse it or is it a matter of not getting into it in the first place? The biggest damage seems to come from losing tile improvements, so I need to add 'defend improvements' to the ever increasing list of things to do.:aargh: Continual war is only good if you are on the offensive and winning. In my first GOTM (#10, tells you how new I am), I had three declare on me in the 20th century and just got slaughtered! I posted about it in the GOTM 10 threads if you want to see that you are not alone in these struggles.

Monte will declare on anything that breathes, any time, it seems. I find he usually comes with inferior troops, but in huge numbers.

How to reverse? Need some data (this is a TEST game, right?) ...

How many cities do you have now?
How many of these cities are starving?
(The quick way to assess how much war weariness is punishing you)
How many cities have you lost to the enemy?
What % science are you running now?
(The quick way to assess how much high maintenance is punishing you)
Do you know code of laws?
What types of military units are you making? (catapults, anyone?)
What types of military units are attacking you?
What civics are you running?
Do you have a religion? Is that making the world hate you?
Did you agree to open borders with the AI's? I think new players often hesitate to do this, but it is critical for good relations.

If they are winning, you need to make peace. That may mean giving up gold, a tech, or a city if you are that desparate. See if you have any friends, and is there anyone you can bribe into going to war with your enemies?

If you can post the above information, I am sure there will be a lot of specific advice that will help you greatly in GOTM 13 (assuming the mods don't blast this as off topic).

dV

Hi,

since I'm kind of a lamer at Civ4 myself, I think I can give you some advice at eye level :-).

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.
OK, first of all in my opinion GOTM12 was super-easy, so if you lost that one you will have a tough run with this one, since it's one level higher, on a large map and epic speed (which you might or might not be used to).

As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.
I won most of the games I actually attempted, except for my first respective attempts at the next higher difficulty, and then it was mostly an early defeat/resign due to lack of military defense. So my first advice would be not to totally neglect your military in the beginning, even if you want to play a peaceful game. At least build some archers/axes to deal with the barbs and for fogbusting. Since this is a large map, there will be a lot of fogged area for most of the game, so you will have barbs around. Don't lose early cities to them because you "needed that axeman somewhere else" :-).

Go for the victory you feel most familiar with (Space in your case). Don't experiment without testing first on a higher difficulty than you are used to. Personally I think Cultural is pretty easy, since there are solid, easy to grasp "recipes" on how to achieve it. Also, if played properly, you will have won before the AI has any chance to complete the Space Ship, so you won't be racing with anyone of them. Now, if it turns out that we get an isolated start (i.e. not meeting many (or any) contenders before Astronomy), you would have to make sure that you can found three religions on your own because you won't get them from neighbours (for a good Cultural win you need religions).

Also, I'm planning to be more war-like than usual. In both test games I was next to Monty, who continually attacked me so I've got a lot better at warmongering. Maybe foolish, but I think I can challenge the AI best at battling, rather than city production.
It is kind of mandatory to show aggression on Monarch and higher levels. Be relentless, don't hesitate to build only military units for extended periods of times and whack your neighbours at the next best opportunity. I found myself to be quite a whimp regarding aggression, but then realized that it is not hard at all if you are consequent in your actions (ie. not flipping needlessly between teching/building/warring, instead sticking to one until your milestone is reached). I also think it is a lot easier to defeat one or two oppos as early as possible, since they expand faster than you do and cause you a lot of grief later, when they will have more land/cities and possibly are ahead in tech. So try to get copper/iron ASAP, build the respective units and wipe out your neighbour (if you have a choice, go for the aggressive, psycho neighbour first, since you will be warring them sooner or later anyway). You can forego expanding in this case, since you will get the cities from them, so you won't have to settle yourself.

My plan is to emphasise military techs, build at most 4 cities, maybe get attacked which will strengthen my units, then choose the right time to expand by conquest. Maybe get Conquistador ASAP.
The "right time" is early in my opinion. As for getting the Conquistador early, there has been some good advice on this already in this thread (I haven't used the Feudalism slingshot before, but I'm going to try it in this game, sounds nice with the UU we have).

Any advice gratefully received.....:confused:
Take my advice with a grain of salt, there are better players than me, but IMHO Monarch is not as hard as it seems. I'm only playing Civ4 for a few weeks now and if I can win Monarch, so can you :-) (NB I've never played any of the earlier Civ games). I've read a lot of the articles in the War Academy, most of which are really helpful -- highly recommended!

Oh, and obviously you should listen to godotnut and the other daredevils around here...

--Sigi