Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Первыйнах!

Checking in. :)

In the game

I glad to see you!!!

и ещё у меня вопрос, а могу ли я дополнять свои сообщения переводом на русский, для удобства учасников команды ???

See no problem if they just duplicate English version. Moreover, in previous SGOTMs part of discussion was held on CFR forums as, for example, I do not have access to CFC from work.

Checking in. :)

Just an important note repeating here from the maintenance thread that the game will be played with the latest HOF mod version. It might be the current version but it might be a new version released just prior to the start of the game. So, everyone should be able to download that HOF mode version before the game starts.

Also, we are certainly at freedom to discuss a few things here and there on the other site, but lets try to stick to this thread whenever possible and limit discussion to English and not to confuse lurkers and game admins.

For those who are wondering what am I talking about, there is a thread (http://forum.civfanatics.ru/index.php?showtopic=4652&hl=)for this team at CFR forum. It is in Russian and unless you are fluent in Russian, you might find it hard to read. However, access is not limited and it is always possible to use babelfish. ;)

Still waiting for Cardinal, Iohar and Obormot to check in here as well.

Checking in. :D
I'll try to make a summary of the discussion at CFR and post it here later today.

Checking in ;)

Checking in.

OK, I've made the summary of our discussion. I propably missed something, since the original discussion was 10 pages long and I didn't feel like rereading everything. :lol:

Obviously we are going for a diplo win, since it is faster.

We plan to have an early war to capture enough land for a fast science pace. Six good cities is the bare minimum, so that we can build Oxford and other wonders that require multiple cities, but if we can capture more land easily, we'll go for it. After capturing all the land we need we'll concentrate on science. We'll try to get the rest of the votes peacefully.

We plan to make our religion dominant in the world. Spreading religion by missionaries should be effective in an archipelago world with 17 civs and only 6 heathen religions. We need +7 relations with the AI for them to vote for us. With "Aggressive AI" turned on, the base relations with the AI will range from -1 to -4. We'll get +1 from peace, +2 from OB, +4 from trade and +2-6 from religion. That should be enough for most civs, but we'll have to be carefull to prevent diplo penalties from trade with "worst enemies". So we'll have to choose early which civs we want to have on our sides and only trade with them while alliing against all others.

The exact opening sequence is being discussed now, but obviously we'll research fishing and bronze first. We plan to build two boats quickly and then a quick settler.

We agreed that triing for a CS-slingshot is not a good idea in warlords on monarch level, but we do want to build the Oracle anyway. The plan is to take Metal Casting for free and build a quick forge. We should get an engineer at 500BC or so and that will likely give us the Piramids, which is extremely usefull in a UN game.

We plan to take the shortest path to Mass Media after researching all the base economic techs. Nearly all expensive techs on that way can be lightbulbed by a GS, so we want to generate plenty of those. We'll propably stay in slavery for a while to build some basic infrastructure and then switch to CS/pacifism.

We need +7 relations with the AI for them to vote for us.
Correction: We need +8 relations with the AI... >7
Civ4 hides some summand attitudes. Thus a safe level relations is +10...+11.

BTW, Gyathar said that the archipelago type is archipelago (i.e. not snaky continents or tiny islands). I have generates several such maps in the WB. Here are some observations:

1. In most of the cases each civ gets their own island. Sometimes thaere are two or three civs on an island, but such cases are quite rare.

2. The island size varies, but usually there is some space for 3 cities or more. But most of these city locations are not very good. Usually only the capital can be a powerfull city.

3. Even though the sea level is low, it is not guaranteed that we can reach everybody before Optics. Sometimes you can only contact a civ or two before optics.

It might be visible +8 is enough. May be +9 with some leaders from different "camp". +10 and +11 might be overkill.

If I might suggest the roster:

Grey Cardinal
akots
IL2T
Iohar
Lexad
liar
Obormot
ProRock

We can switch and swap if needed to be freely, better keep the roster flexible since as you can see the order of players is mostly alphabetical. ;)

Obormot - to add smth from discussion at CFR
relations - can get extra pluses from giving away resources, from making gifts and paying tribute if requested; can get extra pluses from civics (latter is hard)

Then we choose our allies we must remember about favorite civics - as at start we now mostly civics we will use, we can put this parameter into our criterion function.

P.S. Guys, my expirience in writting in English is low, so I will be glad if you correct my rough mistakes.

I support the idea of Lexad in CFR forum of trying to make oracle in second and pyramids in first. Mixing few percentage of engineer and great of scientist is not bad idea while some Great engineer could go fo Machinery and other usefull wonders.
I have some strange proposal to discuss a variant with making Parhenon instead of Pyramids. And accumulating scientists for all prerequisites of Radio (not opening Chemistry to avoid the obsolence of the Parthenon) Suggest we can receive 2 or 3 more scientist. Just as idea. Or trying to accumulate 2 engineers from beginning for Pyramids in first city with forge. Will hope to recieve 2 engineer relatively early?

Parthenon is good idea. But preferably we will build it own cities production + chop forest. At third city. ;)

If we do get the engineer before Piramids are built, we should rush them, there is no other wonder that can be more usefull. If we don't get the Piramids we can build something else, but Parthenon is actually not very usefull in this game. We'll have +200% GPP from the philosophical trait and pacifism, so Parthenon's +50% will actually be only +17% (even less with National Epic).

OK, I made my version of the starting sequence. I think we should start with a warrior and finish him before switching to a WB so that we don't waste hammers. It won't delay anything significantly and will be ysefull immidiately for happiness, while the hammers inveted into barracks won't be usefull for quite a while. It is also more efficent to build the settler by whipping two citizens, then by normal production even without a granary.

Turn 0 - Settle in place, start building warrior, start researching fishing, work the FP.
Turn 11 - Grow to size=2. Warrior has 11/22 hammers invested. Fishing is done, researching BW (38/269). Second citizen works the spice forest.
Turn 15 - Warrior is built, start WB. We have 8/36 food, 108/269 beakers.
Turn 28 - BW is researched, revolt to slavery. We have 34/36 food, 40/45 hammers.
Turn 29 - Rush WB (85/45). Remaining citizen works spice forest.
Turn 30 - Build a fishing net. Regrow to size=2 (2/36). Work clams & spice forest.
Turn 31 - Second WB is done, start another one. WB sails to second clam tile. We have 5/36 food.
Turn 32 - Second fishing net done. Move citizens to work both clams.
Turn 37 - Grow to size=3. We have 4/39 food, 7/45 hammers. Work both clams and the FP.
Turn 42 - Grow to size=4. We have 0/42 food, 12/45 hammers invested into WB build. Switch to settler. Work both clams, FP & spice forest.
Turn 49 - We have 63/150 food invested into the settler build. Whip killing two citizens -> 153/150.

Agree with Obormot on Parthenon - too costly for it's effect for Philosophical leader under Pacifism, and +17%GPP doesn't mean +17% Great people. It will slow down our development singificantly. Also, we do not have much cities at start to choose from, so it might also pollute our GPP pool with Artist DNA, and we have not much use for them, maybe except radio and mass media, and even then the effect is too low.
Same argument apply for National Epic, but this comes later, has no competitors, is relatively cheaper and has twice greater effect for 1 GP factory. If we decide we're fine with speeding up Radio or Mass Media with occasional artists, we can build it cuz these techs can take as many artists as we can provide.

But in short,
"Скрипач не нужен" (с)

National Epic should definitely be built at some point, even if we get an artist or two we'll still get more scientists with it in the long run. Actually I think there is nothing wrong with polluting the GPP pool at the later stages of the game. Since we are planning to get many GSs, the effect of unlucky rolls shouldn't be too high. Unless we are really unlucky we'll be better off with some extra non-scientist GP: the number of GSs we get stays the same on average, but we also get several extra other GPs. 100% propability is a must only for the first few GPs.

National Epic is more appealing, agree, but not Parthenon. I agree, we're better off getting additional GA, not GA instead of some GS we'd get w/o NE. GS researching Radio is more efficient by GA by 750 + 1,5*Populace.
Though, again, I tend to agree that such outcome would be not that probable and disastrous. Having GProphet in 1500s AD would be much worse :D

I agree with Obormot. It is the best variant of development of the first 50 turn. Date of building settlers is worse from the fastest variant only on one turn, but we receive warrior and can protect settlers.

Писал при помощи промта с последующей правкой. Может английский хоть выучу.:)

Checked whether bug with hammers overflowing from slavery to wonders is still on:
1. Yep, they are not deflated in the process. If you pop-rush aqueduct at 46 hammers to go for 2 pop you get exactly (90 - 46 + 1turn production) overflow which goes to your next build with it's boni, without any handicap for being from slavery, as good as any hammers.
Tested under HOF mod 2.08.001, there's been .002 out yesterday, but its changelog doesn't mention the subject and honestly can't see how could you prevent people from using it except explicitly telling not to use.

2. The side effect - slavery hammer output is fixed (45 per person w/o boni or handicaps), chopping is still 44.
3. Iohar, you might have mixed smth up, at pop 4 it allows to whip build for 2 people.

Edit: checked in 2.08.002, same effect. Voila.

Also checked out 1/2-hammers-from-slavery-for-rushing-the-wonder-itself. Present.

... It is the best variant of development of for the first 50 turn. Date of building settlers is worse from than the fastest variant only on by one turn, but we receive warrior and can protect settlers.


This propmt you are using is not that bad. :)

I made my version of the starting sequence.
May be better mixed variant:

Turn 0 - Settle in place, start building warrior, start researching fishing, work the FP.
Turn 11 - Grow to size=2. Warrior has 11/22 hammers invested. Fishing is done, researching BW (38/269). Second citizen works the spice forest.
Turn 12 - First citizen works the grassland forest.
Turn 14 - Warrior is built, start WB.
A
Turn 20 - First citizen returns to FP.
Turn 27 - First WB is done, start another one. Build a fishing net.
Work clams & FP.
B
Turn 23 - First citizen returns to FP.
Turn 26 - First WB is done, start another one. Build a fishing net.
Work clams & FP.

Turn 28 - BW is researched, revolt to slavery. We have 29/36 food, 1/45 hammers.
Turn 29 - Rush WB (47-48/45).
Turn 30 - Regrow to size=2 (0/36). WB sails to second clam tile.
Turn 31 - Second fishing net done. We have 5/36 food. Move citizens to work both clams.
...

EDIT Use calc - total at 35 turn (food-hammer-beaker):
1. ^ 62-119-365 or 60-121-365 = 546
2. Obormot 59-119-370 = 548
3. Cardinal 73-112-371 = 556 size 3, without warrior
4. Simple 35-136-392 = 563
:)

I have tried the map with the same parameters. I have used the tactic of the Oracle in the second city and Pyramids in the first. Everything was ok. Till 1100 AD i tested i was 1,2,3 or 4 by scores. It is very easy to be on the top as for me (even with only 4 cities as i did :)). The BIGGEST problem was that there were 4 hinduists, 4 buddists, 2 islams, 1 christian, 2 judaists, 3 taoists or smth like that. Impossible to be very kind to all of them. And not easy to have wars while on archipelago and needed sea units and you do not have mach production. I DO have the serious fears about our possibility to be friend for all. At the same time I do NOT have fears about our possibility to be first in research. The dominant religion MUST be. It is not an option. So have the proposal after recieving first great engineer call out the engineer from forge to allow great prophet appear from the second city for any possible ways of religion. Even in this case it is really possible to be 1 in research and (may be in production). We have to safe us with friends all over the world (except those who we will wish to destroy).

I don't think Shrine will help much if you want one (cuz most cities will be with religion as you describe), and if you want to rush some religious tech, we are should get taoism first as it's useful for Pacifism, and then can spread it.

There is always a harder option of free religion while having military domination all over the world. It might just take a bit longer however.

One solution to low production can be to build whatever troops we can and then sail and grab whatever the closest most productive piece of land is. It might mess up with diplomatic relationships however.

EDIT Use calc - total at 35 turn (food-hammer-beaker):
1. ^ 62-119-365 or 60-121-365 = 546
2. Obormot 59-119-370 = 548
3. Cardinal 73-112-371 = 556 size 3, without warrior
4. Simple 35-136-392 = 563
:)
This is more or less even and might depend on what exactly we are facing here in terms of whether we have a neighbor which has to be killed or we want it to be peaceful or something else which would happen early in the game. But after Cardinal's first 30 turns, it would be more or less clear how it goes.

I played the first 29 turn. Link -http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/CFR_W_SG003_BC3130_01.CivWarlordsSave
The city was founded there where planned. Though there was an idea to settle on a hill, but there is less food, and I have solved that for capital, as GP factory, is not good. We on island, where many jungle, but also many gem and have copper!. We have place for 5-6 city. AI has been not found.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3130 BC:
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Moscow has been founded.
Turn 7, 3790 BC: You have discovered Fishing!
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 13, 3610 BC: Barbarian's Bear (3.00) vs CFR-W's Scout (2.70)
Turn 13, 3610 BC: CFR-W's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Bear!
Turn 25, 3250 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs CFR-W's Scout (2.90)
Turn 26, 3220 BC: CFR-W's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Panther!
Turn 27, 3190 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 28, 3160 BC: CFR-W adopts Slavery!

:goodjob: Well done!

OK, that is a great island for such such a map. Looks like we can found at least five good cities. :)

We need to rethink our strategy now, because we have stone and we have good land for settling, which makes building settlers instead of wonders more attractive.I think we should forget about Oracle and build Piramids brick by brick - this is cheaper then Oracle+forge and we can save the engineer from Pyramids for something else.

EDIT: attached screenshot.

Interestingly, from 17 civilizations nobody has founded Hinduism. Also, we not met nobody and at us the big island. Means the others AI settle very densely.

Probably now to build pyramids more effective than Oracle. In what to year we will have pyramids if we them shall start to build after mines on a stone? The second city will be the most industrial at us. It is necessary to build it on a hill, we will have one more hammer..

Regarding our CFR discussion:

IL2T - @ "try to trade for Phood"
AI will never trade away tech it's building wonder in, that's the law chiseled in stone. No hope this way for me.

Iohar - @ "try to get Pyramids by force"
1. They can be in the other part of the world
2. They can be in friendly city
3. This assumes military start, with war techs and builds, not just shooting our development leg, but probably shooting it off.

As for slavery effect, we've had a wonderful practice previous SGOTM :D Although the bug was majorly fixed, some bypasses are still present.

Again I want to make a call: let's head for maximum program, both Oracle and Pyramids! We can get Pyramids using 2 different approaches! That's great, before we could only hope to get it with one!

Lexad
What you think about early Academy? Is it in maximum program?

How about very risky plan - later Oracle - CS slingshot? ;)

Three major question:
-tech plan, goals;
-production queue;
-city placement.

+world exploring!

Lexad
What you think about early Academy? Is it in maximum program?
...

Well, if we expand a lot like we plan since there is a lot of land, early Academy might be not the top priority, not until and if we can build the Pyramids.

... let's head for maximum program, both Oracle and Pyramids! ...
Might be a good idea imho.

I agree with Obormot. It is the best variant of development of the first 50 turn. Date of building settlers is worse from the fastest variant only on one turn, but we receive warrior and can protect settlers.

????? ??? ?????? ?????? ? ??????????? ???????. ????? ?????????? ???? ?????.:)

Please use English in these forums, or provide a translation. Babelfish seems to fail on this.

GC just wrote he's using translation prompt.
Was Babelfish OK with my checking-in post? :D

IL2T
Early Academy is a very strong beginning, but we won't be able to get much from it at the very start with limited happiness+health and need to keep forest for Pyramids. But we can't be beaten to Academy by AI :D. Binary getting Oracle for me is stronger than getting Academy a bit later. Still, support your idea.

...
Early Academy is a very strong beginning, but we won't be able to get much from it at the very start with limited happiness+health and need to keep forest for Pyramids. ...

Also, it is not given that the capital will be our top commerce city, it might be we can try to turn it into Great Person Farm, GPF. However, it is not very rich in food either, so it will be a "small" GPF. The top commerece city early on might be something up north with many gems. On the other had, it won't be developed until much later in the game.

I also have a concern about rapid settling of the aggressive AI. IMHO, we should settle our landmass as early as possible. Otherwise, since the AI's space is very limited, they would be sailing there like crazy and grabbing our lands for themselves. With aggressive AIs, there is also a possibility of an early war against us. It might still be OK but we might need a few axemen/chariots here and there.

Three major question:
-tech plan, goals;

My tech queue
Wheel
Pottery
Writting
Mazonry
Sailing

Goals: build at least two workers, build second city at hill(south to stone) connect cities by roads, pre-chop forest near second city

-production queue;
Three major question:
-city placement.

second city on hill south to stone
third after discovered Sailing and building galley near copper

Three major question:
+world exploring!

I think we can start to discover world with the galley

Again I want to make a call: let's head for maximum program, both Oracle and Pyramids!

We need to think big. The Oracle is worth ~1K beakers. For domination/conquest that is a lot, since we only need ~10K total to get Astronomy. But for Mass Media we'll need something like ~60K beakers, so the value of the Oracle free tech is much less. It is still a great boost, but only when it causes a snowball effect, i.e. when the free tech gives a big immidiate benefit. But neither Alphabet nor MC are really important for us now.

So the benefit of the Oracle is not that great, and it causes some problems. First of all we'll have to build it in the capital (since 2nd city will be busy building the Pyramids, and we cannot risk delaying them), and that will slow down our expansion a lot, this the biggest problem with the Oracle IMO. Another concern is the GP points. I think that we want to get a GE from Pyramids and Oracle will mess up with that (although a prophet might be a good idea if we want a shrine).


Also, it is not given that the capital will be our top commerce city, it might be we can try to turn it into Great Person Farm, GPF. However, it is not very rich in food either, so it will be a "small" GPF. The top commerece city early on might be something up north with many gems. On the other had, it won't be developed until much later in the game.

I think moving our capital to the top-commerce city to get maximum from the bureaucracy bonus might be a good idea. Moscow is definitely not a powerhouse, even building Oxford there may problematic.

I think that for now we should use Moscow a settler/worker factory. Once our island is settled we can switch to GP generation. I think we should wait for an engineer from Pyramids, and then switch to scientist farming.

If to not follow old the plan - Oracle-Engineer-Pyramid, maybe better quickly learn the Alphabet and trade Masonry, Sailing, etc. Only so it is possible to compensate not constructed Oracle.

I think moving our capital to the top-commerce city to get maximum from the bureaucracy bonus might be a good idea. Moscow is definitely not a powerhouse, even building Oxford there may problematic.


I no think, what some city can be is better than our capital. 7 scientific+3 cottages or 8 Scientific+2 from G. Library+200% is very much.

If to not follow old the plan - Oracle-Engineer-Pyramid, maybe better quickly learn the Alphabet and trade Masonry, Sailing, etc. Only so it is possible to compensate not constructed Oracle.

I don't think we can get there fast enough. I think that with stone we should play it safe and simply build the Pyramids before 1000BC. As I said 1K beakers is not a big deal IMO, and we might not be able to even meet the AI. We can skip saling and hope to trade for it, but masonry and wheel we'll have to self-research.

We also need to optimise our build sequence. The plan is to build the WB, then start another one while growing to size 4 and rush the settler. It looks fine still, but it will be better to rush 1-2 turns later, so that we complete the WB immidiately with overflow and improve the clams. And we also need another WB somehow for exploration, plus warriors for protection. Note that our warrior should get back to Moscow before it growth to size=4. The scout can be used for fogbusting in front of the settler.


I no think, what some city can be is better than our capital. 7 scientific+3 cottages or 8 Scientific+2 from G. Library+200% is very much.

Scientists are not multiplied by bureacracy, so it doesn't matter.

Scientists are not multiplied by bureacracy, so it doesn't matter.

I know this, and my example not include gold and bureacracy.

...
I think we can start to discover world with the galley
You mean trireme?

You mean trireme?

No galley, with loaded settler, unload it near copper

Rather galley as it can transport our settler should we find a good spot.

First of all we'll have to build it [Oracle] in the capital (since 2nd city will be busy building the Pyramids, and we cannot risk delaying them), and that will slow down our expansion a lot, this the biggest problem with the Oracle IMO. Another concern is the GP points. I think that we want to get a GE from Pyramids and Oracle will mess up with that (although a prophet might be a good idea if we want a shrine).
But my proposal is the opposite - Oracle in new city, Pyramids in capital. Second city will have just 1 forest tile before its borders expand (costng more resources as we have no early religion), while capital can play it safely and produce settler/workers/warriors/ships by whipping and putting overflow into Pyramids.
Also we need to determine the key techs we need. For Oracle it'd be Phood, for Pyramids - Masonry and Maths, and also Wheel to connect stone. Pottery or Sailing for greater food output would be useful, but this will slow us down (also, little cottageable land before chopping) - however if we'd decide we'd go for Metal Casting with Oracle we should chuck it in before Writing. So I propose to go for Writing (for Maths) through Phood, Masonry after Phood (to start Oracle ASAP).

However I'm still uneasy with building Pyramids and not getting them from Engineer - this mean 2,5 settlers less than we could get, basicly, a severe hit at the start - or, in other words we spend as much hammers as we could for library, lighthouse, granary and worker together.
Too early Academy is not strong because of low base bulb level (so we won't suffer if our first GP is not GS) and in the lategame GS means much less in terms of turns saved, 2 at max. Our GS still should arrive mostly in the beginning when we need them for Academies, Philosophy, Education, so that still'd be fine.
Therefore I still advocate we should try Oracle slingshot (via Pottery) to MC and get GE from Forge (which costs 1/2 of Pyramid with stone, btw) for Pyramids, and if we're beaten to it - build Pyramids in capital.

Thus key problems is (with solution)

Research plan
1) Fast Alphabet
1a: AH - Writing - Alphabet (+ Wheel, + Masonry)
1б: Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet (+ Masonry)
2) Early Oracle
Myst - Meditation - Priesthood - Wheel - Pottery - Writing
MC as free techs
3) Matematics?
4) Later Oracle (if possible) CS or Philosophy
5) Other

Which city will builded Oracle
1) Capital
2) Second (near stone)
3) none
4) other

Which city will builded Pyramyds
1) Capital
2) Second (near stone)
3) other

How we receive academy
1) Early in capital
2) Later in capital
3) Other cities

World exploration
1) Early workboat (writing is needed for open borders), later galley
2) Galley
3) Trireme

GP farms
1) Only one in Moscow
2) Two (where is second?)
3) Other

Fast expansion
1) Initial three city (near stone and near copper)
2) Mass expansion (~6 cities at this island + ...!?)
before IW
3) Mass expansion after IW

Whether it is enough us this island for long-run race?
While the precise picture is not visible to me :crazyeye:

The Oracle is worth ~1K beakers.
~1K beakers is income without expenses (~450 beakers)

Too early Academy is not strong because of low base bulb level (so we won't suffer if our first GP is not GS) and in the lategame GS means much less in terms of turns saved, 2 at max.
It's true.

Early Academy have own price. IMHO It's not less than 500 beakers.
It's possible to compare with Oracle. Right?

EDIT IMO Fast Alphabet (via AH), Later Oracle, Early Academy in capital, workboat exploration, mass expansion after IW, ... Pyramids after Masonry exchange ;)

I have a little played different variants on testing map, and have come to such conclusion.

Research plan

5) Wheel - Masonry - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet(1000-900ВС)

Which city will builded Oracle

3) none. Chance to build < 50%,

Which city will builded Pyramids

2) Second (near stone) Finish before 800ВС

How we receive academy
1) Later In capital. After building Pyramids

World exploration
1) Early, fourth(четвертой) workboat.

GP farms
1) Only one in Moscow, 1-2 GS maybe in other city

Fast expansion
1) Initial three city (near stone and near copper) and Mass expansion after throng workers :) Up to 1 AD should expansion all island

I have a little played different variants on testing map, and have come to such conclusion.
...

Doy ou have the test map? If you do please attach to your post, I aslo want to take a look at it. :)

here test map. Only part of island.

1) Early, fourth(четвертой) workboat.

AlanH ask write post in English only. (see post #42)

Your plan looked good. :agree: (tested by Grey Cardinal :D )

About Oracle. We have minimal chance build it after 1000 ВС.
I think that we shall remember about this chance! ;)

here test map. Only part of island.

Thanks, I'll try that before the save playing.

Otherwise, seems to be clear more or less.

I'll play later today so that next player can play on Sunday. So, please, post all other comments.

Note: Moscow happiness limit is 3 (without defenders) up to 44 turn.

I have a little played different variants on testing map, and have come to such conclusion.

Research plan

5) Wheel - Masonry - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet(1000-900ВС)

Which city will builded Oracle

3) none. Chance to build < 50%,

Which city will builded Pyramids

2) Second (near stone) Finish before 800ВС

How we receive academy
1) Later In capital. After building Pyramids

World exploration
1) Early, fourth(четвертой) workboat.

GP farms
1) Only one in Moscow, 1-2 GS maybe in other city

Fast expansion
1) Initial three city (near stone and near copper) and Mass expansion after throng workers :) Up to 1 AD should expansion all island

That were my thoughts approximately.

As for the details, for the next session we can use the build sequence in the origianl plan: start another WB after the 2nd one is done, grow to size 4 (MM for max growth), then at size=4 switch to settler and rush with 2 citizens, but we should not rush immidiately when it becomes available, it is better to wait a bit so that overflow can finish the 3rd WB to improve the clams immidiately.

Anyhow, just need to play a few turns here. Since there is not much going on, I decide to play 24 turns. Next player can take slightly less, may be 10 or 15 or 14 to set us on track.

[0] Boat ready, panter dies to our warrior.
[1] Boat to clams, building another, set to growth.
[2] Build net on second clams, citizen goes there, Moscow growth in 6 turns, warrior goes back 1 tile to have a better view, scout still healing even though health shows 1.0 out of 1. It had to be fixed in the patch. :confused:
[3] Hinduism FIADL.
[5] A forest grew near Moscow!
[7] Moscow grows to size 3, set to work flood plains again for maximal growth in 5 turns. Warrior has to go back and so does the scout to bust fog near the stone.
[8] Mysticism ready, set reseacrh to Wheel, ready in 8 turns.
[12] Moscow grows to size 4, set to build settler. Wrkboat has 15 out of 45 hammers invested in it. Settler in 17 turns at 6 bread+3hammers per turn and can be rushed with 2 citizens in 10 turns or may be more than that to provide an early workboat for the second city.
[14] Unhappiness from previous rushing disappeared but there is nothing to rush yet.
[15] Wheel discovered, research to Masonry in 8 turns. Warrior goes back to fog busting duty.
[19] Settler can be rushed but there will be only 3 hammers for overflow, so I decided to wait one more turn.
[20] And one more turn.
[21] Pliny does not mention us in his list of largest civilizations. Too bad. I'm itching to rush even though it could have been done on the next turn, decided to rush settler now.
[22] Judaism FIADL, settler ready, Moscow working both clams will grow in 6 turns to size 3, workboat ready in 2 turns.
[24] Workboat ready in 1 turn and Masonry in 2 turns. Apparently we need a worker after the boat to start hooking up stone or may be another warrior but hard to tell. Settler walking to the stone site and we met Alexander. He is cautios. His border is to the east of Moscow.

And I'll stop now.

Here is a picture of what is going on but really, not much is going on. I was unable to upload the picture and had to attach it but I'm almost running out of the attachment limit.

Roster:

Grey Cardinal
akots - just played
IL2T - UP
Iohar - preparing
Lexad
liar
Obormot
ProRock

Again reminding, please, warn if you need a skip or swap, we'll do it in no time.

Ok. I will play today or tomorrow evening.

Mystisism is aproximately null in our strategy!? (Pottery much better)

Mysticism is needed for Masonry, at least it decreases the research cost. But indeed, it was not required. :) The thought of switching occurred to me after pressing Enter but I thought there were some beakers invested in it.

Also, we neither have a worker to build cottages nor extra hammers to build granary. IMHO, we need Pottery only on the way to Alphabet and Masonry might be fine because we would be able to start on Pyramids in the second city right away. However, it might be worth starting to build something there once on a while (warrior might come handy in the near future for military police) and pop-rush directing exccess of hammers into Pyramids once it grows beyond the size when all good tiles are worked.

Well, the only thing I really don't like about Pyramids, is if we fail, it would be a disaster. So, as a backup would be expansion and as rapidly as possible.

For third city we need sailing and something for protection of the settler towards copper.

There is an option of starting a worker once Moscow grows to size 4 instead of the 4th workboat.

And we better keep an eye on this Alexander neighbor, he is from treacherous company and builds a lot of triremes in Warlords, and a lot mean really-really many. Not that we are in much danger but he would just pillage all our seafood nets in no time if by chance he declares on us. I'm always uncomfortable when starting around Alexander, don't know why really

For third city we need sailing and something for protection of the settler towards copper.

Why? We have land route to third city location. :) This journey is safety if we build one additional warrior in guard.

My common plan:
Research Pottery->Writing
Production Worker ASAP, Workboat, 1-2 Warrior (Monument in SPB ???)

Any comments?

Why? We have land route to third city location. :) This journey is safety if we build one additional warrior in guard.

My common plan:
Research Pottery->Writing
Production Worker ASAP, Workboat, 1-2 Warrior (Monument in SPB ???)

Any comments?
Well, it is a rather long voyage by land because of many jungles on the way. Don't know, it might be very risky. The galley might be useful for exploration after delivering the settler to copper.

How soon the worker? We have bonus towards hammers going into worker but not towards the food.

I'm not sure, monument in the second city might be OK but do we really need it there? May be start on Pyramids right away? Or prebuild the monument and then pop-rush it directing overflow to Pyramids?

I still cannot quit thinking about Oracle and getting Philosophy out of it. Yes, I know, Pacifism for us would be of not so high benefit but still it might be important.

How soon the worker? We have bonus towards hammers going into worker but not towards the food.

Time needed to build worker ~ 3 turns + one citizen rush.
I don't have detailed save view yet.

note. We can use in SPB Grassland forest which belong to Capital.

I think, what In SPB necessary to build Pyramid only when we will connect a stone.
While can build monument and workboat for fish. Also can use pop-rush for monument, workboat, warrior, etc and directing overflow to Pyramid.

In capital grow pop to 3 and build worker with pop-rush.

Too late had I had a chance of trying the test map. Going for Oracle gave it to me in 1300-1200 BCs. No use now, however. As any discussions on when we can get Academy and whether getting it earlier would give us 500 beakers (still, with base science in capital at pop 4 with 2 scientists = 25 beakers per turn it'd take 500/12 ~ 40 turns, and you get 2nd GP (75% GS) with 2 scientists and Pyrs in 300/16 = 20 turns).

I'd still recommend building Pyrs in Moscow which has 1 more forest tile now.

Also I'd recommend when building worker (not the first one, him we need faster) to get maximum effect from hammers invested, food turned into hammers and overflow rush it at 1-2 hammers left.

I'd still recommend building Pyrs in Moscow which has 1 more forest tile now.


In Moscow need build granary, lighthouse, library. Building Pyrs take many time and not effective.


Also I'd recommend when building worker (not the first one, him we need faster) to get maximum effect from hammers invested, food turned into hammers and overflow rush it at 1-2 hammers left.


This tactics to suit perfectly for SPB also.

This tactics suits every high-food city ;)

Building Pyramids would take much time and hammers in any case, but higher production SPb would allow us more flexibility in choosing GP type - use Moscow with library to get pure scientist, StPete with forge to get high-prob engineer. Also higher hammer rate would allow us to save on forest chops. So, I agree on Pyramids in StPete. The only issue is border expansion - do we plan to build an Obelisk (and pop-rush to get hammer overflow)?

Also agree on worker timing proposed by Grey Cardinal.

What is our further research plan? Writing - Alph - Maths?

I will play today 1-2 hour later...

General: I played 18 turns (17 want). We have learned the minimal part the helpful information.
The Pyramids will start 6 turns later. (pop-rush workboat at 5 turn! It will go to small voyage, then build fishing net near SPb after border expansion)

My turns log:

0 - Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

1 - Turn 54 (2380 BC)
St. Petersburg founded
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior
Moscow begins: Work Boat
Tech learned: Masonry

2 - Turn 55 (2350 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
See greek Sparta. City founded directly on the stone.

3 - Turn 56 (2320 BC)

4 - Turn 57 (2290 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

5 - Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker

6 - Turn 59 (2230 BC)

7 - Turn 60 (2200 BC)

8 - Turn 61 (2170 BC)
Pop-rush worker.
Moscow finishes: Worker

9 - Turn 62 (2140 BC)

10 - Turn 63 (2110 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Monument
Tech learned: Pottery
St. Petersburg grows: 2

11 - Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Pop-rush Monument.
St. Petersburg finishes: Monument
Worker start quarry on the stone (9 turns)

12 - Turn 65 (2050 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior
See yellow borber on the north.

13 - Turn 66 (2020 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

14 - Turn 67 (1990 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

15 - Turn 68 (1960 BC)
Pop-rush exploring workboat.
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

16 - Turn 69 (1930 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

17 - Turn 70 (1900 BC)
South land near Moscow is small island

18 - Turn 71 (1870 BC)
See purple borber on the south.


Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/CFR_W_SG003_BC1870_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Some pictures: south island, overview, land route to third city ;)

:goodjob:

Roster:

Grey Cardinal
akots
IL2T - just played
Iohar - UP
Lexad - preparing
liar
Obormot
ProRock

Let's discuss a little bit more. I'm still uncomfortable on what should be done next exactly.

Reminder: Check north area some turns later, if yellow border will expand, we get new contact.
We have half price granary (45 hammers) as expansive civilization.

We must collect not less 6 contacts at 100 turn. While we don't have new information.

I will play tomorrow evening(Dec 4, 2006), at morning a will post my turn pre-plan :)
P.S. Please tell me how to get turn log (I play HOF mod first time)

P.S. Please tell me how to get turn log (I play HOF mod first time)
"Options" - "HOF1" - "Autolog"

SW is Caesar, N is Hatty - quite adequate guys.
Alex having stone is not a good news, but AI rarely go straight for Pyrs, here's our chance. We'd better calculate the fastest road to Pyrs, though (city and BO)
Southern island is actually not bad development ground - crabs to feed extra people (miners or scientists) and for slavery, hills for minng, some wood for starters.
IL2T has also found us another fish off the east coast, thus getting excellent location for a cottage+GP city once we get IW - fish+rice+cow+gems+hella grassland. We can use the other fish (inside our horseshoe island) to feed some western part city with gems.
Where should we go next - Alphabet or Maths?

Mathematics seems as a better choice because of chopping for Pyramids. And for Alpha to get maximal benefit, we need more contacts.

I think we are moving a bit too fast, we need to have a clear picture of what to do during the next turnset before playing. (Although I think IL2T did everything right :goodjob:). We urgently need more workers, at least one (better two or even three). Then we need to expand and settle the entire island. Note that more cities will be usefull even before IW, we can work seafood and poprush library, then hire scientists.

I am not sure whether researching math is a good idea, it is true it will speed up the Pyrmid a lot, but it is a tech that is usually easy to get in trade. Also not researching Alphabet means no IW (we need that to clear jungles), no sailing, etc. I am leaning towards researching Alphabet after writing.

I'll try to calculate everything carefully tomorrow. We also need a dotmap for our new cities, some locations are not obvious (although that is not very urgent, I think).

Mathematics seems as a better choice because of chopping for Pyramids. And for Alpha to get maximal benefit, we need more contacts.
Disagree. Mathematics will research at the end of building the Piramyds.
Maximal effect is +15 base hammers :D

IW + Sailing is critical necessity for fast expansion. As i wrote earlier not less 5-6 contacts we have been at 1000 BC. All we need is Alphabet ;)

...
I am not sure whether researching math is a good idea, it is true it will speed up the Pyrmid a lot, but it is a tech that is usually easy to get in trade. Also not researching Alphabet means no IW (we need that to clear jungles), no sailing, etc. I am leaning towards researching Alphabet after writing.
...

I'm not so sure Math will be easy to get from AI. It is a rather advanced science and we would have nothing to offer for trade except the Alphabet itself. Same would be true for Iron Working and Sailing would be hard to get for Writing although possible.

IMHO, in Warlords after the patch the AIs are expanding like crazy, much faster than they used to be, grabbing any location which is worth something and not paying any attention towards research. I'm not sure what their priorities regarding techs would be in this map.

Disagree. Mathematics will research at the end of building the Piramyds. ...

Would we still be able to do that? We have rather many forests to chop and not so many workers, even 1 more might not be enough.

On the other hand, there is no rush with IW for now but it would be nice to get Sailing.

However, this is teching game or so far it looks like one and may be trading Alphabet around early is not a bad idea at all, hard to tell. The problem is that that early in the game we would be trading it to our neighbors strengthening them and they would be harder to kill if we decide to do so.

City near copper haven't food resource, therefore it must be fourth :)
Third city near cow much better.

First attempt city placements:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143660&stc=1&d=1165205899

Would we still be able to do that? We have rather many forests to chop and not so many workers, even 1 more might not be enough.

We need some calculation about building date of the Pyramids (~45 turns after current moment). Then we decide how much forest must be chopped.

However, this is teching game or so far it looks like one and may be trading Alphabet around early is not a bad idea at all, hard to tell. The problem is that that early in the game we would be trading it to our neighbors strengthening them and they would be harder to kill if we decide to do so.

No early exchange of the Alphabet! :nono:
It will be difficult to us to build our diplomacy, but it is necessary to make it. ;)

Really, Alphabet give many benefits in my test games. Diplomatic relations will demand exclusive attention in this case. But, our goal is diplomatic victory!

First attempt city placements...

I would move the green city 1NE to get the fish into the city radius. A food bonus is a must IMO. The red city can be moved 2E, 1N, to get the eastern fish tile (since the western one will be used by the green city). This city will be much weaker in the short run though, so it might be better to leave the red city alone.


We need some calculation about building date of the Pyramids (~45 turns after current moment). Then we decide how much forest must be chopped.

Yes, we need a detailed calculation for the build sequences in Moscow & SPB. I'll try to do it today if I'll have some free time at work.

I would move the green city 1NE to get the fish into the city radius. A food bonus is a must IMO. The red city can be moved 2E, 1N, to get the eastern fish tile (since the western one will be used by the green city). This city will be much weaker in the short run though, so it might be better to leave the red city alone.

Ok. Second attempt, as variant. +fish -gems
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143663&stc=1&d=1165212847

May be in he first variant, cities still can be moved since there is fresh water near the red city and we can irrigate grasslands near it later for food instead of using fish. There might be a need for one more city.

Also, in most of these cities production really sucks. I'm not sure what we would be able to build there and we won't stay in slavery forever.

No early exchange of the Alphabet! :nono:
It will be difficult to us to build our diplomacy, but it is necessary to make it. ;)

Really, Alphabet give many benefits in my test games. Diplomatic relations will demand exclusive attention in this case. But, our goal is diplomatic victory!

IMHO, we should actually accelerate the tech pace of the AI unless we are planning to build The Great Library and giving away Alphabet slightly later (may be not as soon as we research it) would be better for us in the long run. We should not try to keep the AIs backwards but should try to get at least a few techs from them here and there except for those which we need to kill. So, I'm still thinking that delaying Alpha now would be easier in terms of diplomacy and we can research Math and then Alpha.

Before my turn I must now opinion of team about:
1. Where to build Pyramids (my choice SPB)
2. What to learn after Writing(my choice Sailing)
3. When start build Pyramids(depend on question 6)
4. How many workers we need during next 15 turns(my opinion 2-3 should be enough at start)
5. If we go for Sailing should I start build settler and galley
6. What we will build in Pyramids-city using slavery, so overflow is added to Pyramids(note: after 10 turns stand idle we will lose 1 hammer) (maybe fishing-boat ??)

So we must give answers about this questions before my turn, if no I shift my turn to 5 Dec evening
P.S. I prefer 2-nd variant city placement

Oops... Please read our discussion (last 2 or 3 pages) :eek:
Before my turn I must now opinion of team about:
1. Where to build Pyramids (my choice SPB)
2. What to learn after Writing(my choice Sailing)
3. When start build Pyramids(depend on question 6)
4. How many workers we need during next 15 turns(my opinion 2-3 should be enough)
5. If we go for Sailing should I start build settler and galley
6. What we will build in Pyramids-city using slavery, so overflow is added to Pyramids(note: after 10 turns stand idle we will lose 1 hammer)

1. SPb only. I prepared SPb to this great mission! :cool:
2. We plan exchange Sailing.
3. See my reminder.
5. We need settler in any choice
6. Decay of building begining after 50 turns idle time!? (need experiment, see in XML).

Before my turn I must now opinion of team about:
1. Where to build Pyramids (my choice SPB)
2. What to learn after Writing(my choice Sailing)
3. When start build Pyramids(depend on question 6)
4. How many workers we need during next 15 turns(my opinion 2-3 should be enough at start)
5. If we go for Sailing should I start build settler and galley
6. What we will build in Pyramids-city using slavery ...
...

It is not about opinion of the team, it is what is the best decision in this case. And I don't get it either.
1. Certainly second city.
2. Probably Alphabet or Math but Sailing is an option. I'm still thinking more about Math and Currency and then Alphabet (if our development schedule permits it) and huge amount of cash which can be obtained during the first trading sesssion with Alphabet and Currency.
3 and 6. The earlier the better but there should be something for overflow in case of whipping. May be more warriors? This is the cheapes thing we can get Cost is 22 hammers, one left and whipping gives 44 or 88 depending on the glitch with production transfer. If that whipped citizen can be set to work and bring a few hammers, then, there is no sense in whipping there because while we make 22 hammers for the warrior, we can make the same 44 hammers for the Pyramids. In the end, we get this free warrior though but do we really need it? :confused: But we need to grow back the city up to maximal possible size rapidly. For this, there should be a clear picture about how soon we can build the Pyramids and how rapidly we can chop the forest for it. It is a lot of calculations and this has to be more or less precisely with only marginal error.
4. Complete mistery, depends on question number 3.
5. And escort for settler or it can come from northern jungle.

Common principle of building the Pyramyds is use pop-rush worker at the final stage with max overflow (as Lexad said). Thus we receive ~180 base hammers or more.

Oops... Please read our discussion (last 2 or 3 pages) :eek:

I read all discussion before I post my questions this because there is no general plan

1. SPB accepted
2. Two choices: Math and Alpha it will take 560 and 672 beakers, or 467 and 560 clear commerce invested to it(1.2 prereq multiplier)
at our base output(90% science slider) 14(SPB - 3, Moscow 13) for at least 3 turns and 16 after 3 turns(if no whipping used)
it will take near 27 and 33 turns respectively
3. I prefer start build Pyramids ASAP, use whipping for warrior every time I will get size 2 until I connect stone to SPB
4. I prefer to build 2 workers in Moscow(whipped) use overflow from first to build Granary: first build quarry, connect to SPB, second start pre-chop forest
5. After building workers and grow to size 4(? or 3 need to test) I set to build settler
6. Accepted Warriors at start, ending with worker

I am going to play 15 turns

Techs - we need team choice (wait Grey Cardinal and Obormot opinion)
Production - some discuss about detailed plan (~30 turns) must be,
remember about happiness limit :)
Diplomacy - after Writing research, we receive possibility "open borders" agreement.

Please wait, do not play right away. Obormot promised to post a build schedule and might be Grey Cardinal will show up with some pearls of wisdom and ProRock for some reason went missing. Also, Lexad did not make himself completely clear yet.

Techs
I for the alphabet. We can trade Saling and ironworks, AH, agriculture and can learn the literature. The mathematics will not help us at construction of pyramids as wrote IL2T, they already will be builded by then.

Production

Unfortunately, now there is no possibility all precisely calc but if in SPB will be 4 pop production will be 12 (2+4+3+3) +100 % = 24 hammers. Рop-rush gives (44+16 +100 % = 120 hammers of times in 5 turn. Amount 120 vs 24*5=120, but we not have red face. I was not mistaken somewhere, check this.

Techs
Рop-rush gives (44+16 +100 % = 120 hammers of times in 5 turn. Amount 120 vs 24*5=120, but we not have red face. I was not mistaken somewhere, check this.
Pop-rush gives worker also. :)

Pop-rush gives worker also. :)


Agree, but use Pop-rush can one times at 15 turn and production SPB lower on 6 hammer. We waste 6*15 = 90 hammer and Pyramid will build on 3.5 turn later.

Let me be at the side of the Mathematic. Not even from the choice of more hammers from Forest but in the favoir of making Hanging Gardens in SPB next. It will help us to grow in all empire, to get HG easy for us with stone. And we can build GL by very quick Engineer, while we are not going to MC and cant receive forge.
Yes for open borders as soon as possible in order after 10 turns we will be able to cancel it :) if someone will try to settle in our back of the island.
Production is next: workers - lots of them in first city. Pyramids-aqueduct-HG in other.
Barrack and 2 settlers in third. for the fourth and fifth cities. :)

Agree, but use Pop-rush can one times at 15 turn and production SPB lower on 6 hammer. We waste 6*15 = 90 hammer and Pyramid will build on 3.5 turn later.

Initial data for timing:
75 turn - Road to stone will build

74 turn - SPb
Size 2; food 6/36 (+3 per turn); workboat 26/45 (+6 per turn);
happiness limit 3 up to 79 turn; culture 9/15 (+1 per turn).

Ocean fish is more productive tile then mined hill.

HG the necessary at 1 AD, when we have 5-6 city. By that time we let's already have mathematics, traded it in 600-500ВС.

My calc for SPB

My calc for SPB...

That looks good, we can finish the Pyramid shortly after 1000BC (turn 100). I agree with rushing WB and then growing and building the Pyramid normally. Just note that the fish can be stolen by the greeks, which may slow us down a bit...

What was the worker sequence in your calculations? We need to build two mines and chop 4 forests during that time.

As for Moscow, I think we should finish the worker, then switch to granary, grow to size=3, switch to worker, poprush when it becomes possible putting overflow into the granary. Then grow to size=3 again and build another worker the same way, finish the granary with overflow from second worker. We will accumulate a lot of unhappiness during that time, so then we switch to a settler and build it normally without rushing to restore normal happiness level.

What was the worker sequence in your calculations? We need to build two mines and chop 4 forests during that time.


Need make 12*2(hill)+6*2(forest)+4(move)=40 worker operation for 30 turn. 2 workers must have

Worker1 - road to stone+move+hill1+move+hill2+move+forest1 = 28 w.o with 75 turn, finish in 103 turn.
Worker2 - move from capital+hill2+move+forest2=16 w.o with 87 turn, finish in 103 turn.

My calc for SPB
Addition: 3 turns delay of workboat pop-rush give us 1 turn economy at finish date the Pyramyds.

EDIT If we use pop-rush worker in SPb (aproximately):
delay finish date +3 turns (108 turn)
production +3 worker.
Size 2. Happiness limit is 2.

Size 2. Happiness limit is 2.


Workers is very good, but city will be dead still 15-30 turn. If build normally, we can build settler every 10 turn.

Workers is very good, but city will be dead still 15-30 turn. If build normally, we can build settler every 10 turn.
Representation after Pyramyds add +3. Then normal happiness level (size 7) restore during ~30 turns.

Corrected the plan building, has taken into hint IL2T, but Pyramid not build earlier.

IL2T, doing own calc for compare.

Well, let me be a Negative Nancy ;)

1. If we go for Alphabet we can trade some early techs for Writing, but nothing to propose for IW and Maths. We have forgone the MC with Oracle plan which is the source of early tech supremacy and technological shortcuts through trades.
2. Though, even if we were willing to trade away Alph, AI are generally very uwilling to give away eaither of these two strategic techs - not that they want much, just no trading option. I'd rather not expect getting it soon. However, getting Sailing, AH, etc could be worth a shot. After building Pyrs we won't need that much wood chopping inany case, so can wait for Maths becoming available in trades - hopefully we can get some trech for trade by then.
3. The effect of Maths for Pyrs could be (44-30)*3tiles*2from stone=84 = 11% costing us 1-2 worker turns to return to prechopped tiles.
On the screen I can see only 3 tiles that will be chopped for StPete, Moscow has higher claims on the others due to higher culture. Extra turns.
Completely support rushing WB idea. I'd rather not rush warriors as it means getting only 22 hammers of overflow before boni and we do not have much need in warriors anyway. If an extra rush would be feasible I'd rather rush a worker at pop 4.
4. The general weakness of green and red cities is their turtlish growth as the have nothing inside initial 1-circle borders and we have no Henge or religion. It will take them 33 turns to rush a monument and comparably long to build. I'd rather go for another locations (see attached) every of which has good growth resources in its 1-tile radius. The green can be put where Obormot proposed (indicated by green ?) sharing fish with red till it works all 3 gems and copper and maybe 2 cottages and then give it back to a promising red GP factory.
Thus we put one more city but work more grassland which is very imporatnt in long-run teching.
Also, we could settle an island to the south, with crabs and 2 hills and wood it can be easily switched between 2-scientist boutique and 2-mine workshop when we need bulbs or hammers respectively.

Therefore on strategy:
I support REX strat
I support building Pyrs in StPete using pop-rush to its max (i.e. building workboat/worker to max hammers and then rushing to invest inflated overflow in Pyrs) as it is the best opportunity left
In techs I'd rather go for Alphabet hoping to get Sailing - we need it for GLighthouse (!) - and some other useful techs. We'd better not expect IW or Maths in trade soon.
Cities - either Green in circle or Red in circle followed closely by green on ?
If Greeks won't get culture 2+ in Sparta, fish will stay ours

1. If we go for Alphabet we can trade some early techs for Writing, but nothing to propose for IW and Maths. We have forgone the MC with Oracle plan which is the source of early tech supremacy and technological shortcuts through trades.
2. Though, even if we were willing to trade away Alph, AI are generally very uwilling to give away eaither of these two strategic techs - not that they want much, just no trading option. I'd rather not expect getting it soon. However, getting Sailing, AH, etc could be worth a shot. After building Pyrs we won't need that much wood chopping inany case, so can wait for Maths becoming available in trades - hopefully we can get some trech for trade by then.

From my experience it is usually possible to trade Alphabet for both Math, IW and the lesser techs. I see nothing wrong with giving away Alphabet.


3. The effect of Maths for Pyrs could be (44-30)*3tiles*2from stone=84 = 11% costing us 1-2 worker turns to return to prechopped tiles.
On the screen I can see only 3 tiles that will be chopped for StPete, Moscow has higher claims on the others due to higher culture. Extra turns.
Completely support rushing WB idea. I'd rather not rush warriors as it means getting only 22 hammers of overflow before boni and we do not have much need in warriors anyway. If an extra rush would be feasible I'd rather rush a worker at pop 4.

Chopped hammers can be redirected by assigning the forest tile to the desired destination city. :)


4. The general weakness of green and red cities is their turtlish growth as the have nothing inside initial 1-circle borders and we have no Henge or religion. It will take them 33 turns to rush a monument and comparably long to build. I'd rather go for another locations (see attached) every of which has good growth resources in its 1-tile radius. The green can be put where Obormot proposed (indicated by green ?) sharing fish with red till it works all 3 gems and copper and maybe 2 cottages and then give it back to a promising red GP factory.

I agree with you about the red city, rapid early developement is more important then a minor long term gain. But I don't like the rest of your dot map. Cities without food bonuses suck, especially in the west where we cannot even chain irrigation. I don't think our goal is to get all those pretty gems into our cities' fat crosses, but to have good cities that can be developed quickly.

Lexad We need fresh look at problem of building the Pyramyds in SPb.
Please, do precise SPb MM for both variation.

From my experience it is usually possible to trade Alphabet for both Math, IW and the lesser techs
Yes, when they are willing to trade it away - that's what I was talking about. One is military tech, the other is Wonder tech. Could take long before enough AI get these techs for someone to become willing to trade it away.
Chopped hammers can be redirected by assigning the forest tile to the desired destination city
Thanx, forgot this

Cities - as I've said if we put Red first then we can put Green at the question mark as you proposed, otherwise we could as well shove the settler up our butts for 23 turns. All other cities have food resources - Orange can use already worked cow for initial growth, and I hope we can get IW before we put Blue so we can start working rice right away. City on island would have crabs and wood.
I'm not sticking dead to these locs, just sharing my views. Remember that this distribution covers almost whole island limiting the chances of opponents founding a city, fighting for our resources and getting diplomatic minuses for common borders.

Lexad We need fresh look at problem of building the Pyramyds in SPb.
Please, do precise SPb MM for both variation.
Well, Obormot corrected me here, so it should stay basicly the same. If we go for Maths we would just need 2 more worker moves to get max chop effect. If we get Maths in ~30 turns, may be worth a shot, but o second thought I'd still go for Alph. Have found no bugs in GC's spreadsheet.

From my experience it is usually possible to trade Alphabet for both Math, IW and the lesser techs. I see nothing wrong with giving away Alphabet.

I agree. According my tests, we have >50% chance exchange IW without Alphabet proposal.

Have found no bugs in GC's spreadsheet.
Which turn Pyramyds will finish at non-pop-rush version (105 or 106)?

Wait, found a bug - turn 78, overflow can't exceed 45 => -1 hammer :D
Well, timing of chops seems incorrect - the first minechop will be finished 1(quarry)+3 (road)+12 (move and mine) = 16 turns from current 71st, i.e. 87th, not 85th. This also delays other chops - Edit - however timing of 2nd minechop is correct: both start work on turn 89, finish on 94th, one having movement and going to chop forest which he finishes on turn 99 (not 101) and the second will chop forest4 1 turn later. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Btw 2 links of road will increase our commerce by 2 - and we still are able to do this before we accumulate hammers required for Pyrs on turn 106. Therefore I propose after hill2 build the road and then chop.
ОК, I'll make a check for non-slavery variant

overflow can't exceed 45 => -1 hammer
Xm. Let's look.
1(quarry)+3 (road)+12 (move and mine) = 16 turns from current 71st, i.e. 87th, not 85th. This also delays other chops.
mine in hill is it necessary in 93 turn.

I've written something more there, have a look, I might be mistaken

And you can't get an overflow bigger than your current build's hammer value which is 45 for boat

Edit - checked out non-slavery case - we get pop 5 at turn 100 and have no good use for him (forest tile at most) - and it's above our happiness limit. Slavery plan is better IMO

Yesterday I had a problem with Internet connection. Today I will read last 4 pages of our discussion and post what I will do next 15 turns.
Save and turn log would be latest tomorrow at same time.

So team-plan for next 15 turns :D
Tech: after research Writting->Alphabet
Production:
Moscow: normally finish warrior, granary for 1 turn, then worker at size 3, rushed it at overflow into granary, again worker
SPB: WB until 44/45 pop-rush, invest 96 hammers into Pyramids and normally building Pyramid
Worker(SPB): build quarry, road, move to hill, build mine
Worker(from Moscow): goes for hill-2 mine
WB(south): go for violet guy and continue scout-mission :)
WB(SPB): little scouting but in 2 turns must be on fish and build fish-net

Warrior-North: next turn goes up and maybe meet Yellow guy
akots
Mathematics seems as a better choice

Obormot
We urgently need more workers, at least one (better two or even three).
I am not sure whether researching math is a good idea
We need to build two mines and chop 4 forests during that time.
As for Moscow, I think we should finish the worker, then switch to granary, grow to size=3, switch to worker, poprush when it becomes possible putting overflow into the granary. Then grow to size=3 again and build another worker the same way, finish the granary with overflow from second worker. We will accumulate a lot of unhappiness during that time, so then we switch to a settler and build it normally without rushing to restore normal happiness level.

IL2T
Disagree. Mathematics will research at the end of building the Piramyds.
Pyramids in SPB only
Note: Moscow happiness limit is 3 (without defenders) up to 44 turn.
The Pyramids will start 6 turns later. (pop-rush workboat at 5 turn! It will go to small voyage, then build fishing net near SPb after border expansion)
Reminder: Check north area some turns later, if yellow border will expand, we get new contact.
We have half price granary (45 hammers) as expansive civilization.
We must collect not less 6 contacts at 100 turn. While we don't have new information.
Diplomacy - after Writing research, we receive possibility "open borders" agreement.
Initial data for timing:
75 turn - Road to stone will build
74 turn - SPb
Size 2; food 6/36 (+3 per turn); workboat 26/45 (+6 per turn);
happiness limit 3 up to 79 turn; culture 9/15 (+1 per turn).
Ocean fish is more productive tile then mined hill.
Addition: 3 turns delay of workboat pop-rush give us 1 turn economy at finish date the Pyramyds.
EDIT If we use pop-rush worker in SPb (aproximately):
delay finish date +3 turns (108 turn)
production +3 worker.
Size 2. Happiness limit is 2.

Grey Cardinal
I for the alphabet.
Unfortunately, now there is no possibility all precisely calc but if in SPB will be 4 pop production will be 12 (2+4+3+3) +100 % = 24 hammers. Рop-rush gives (44+16 +100 % = 120 hammers of times in 5 turn. Amount 120 vs 24*5=120, but we not have red face. I was not mistaken somewhere, check this.

ProRock
Let me be at the side of the Mathematic.
Production is next: workers - lots of them in first city. Pyramids-aqueduct-HG in other.
Barrack and 2 settlers in third. for the fourth and fifth cities.

Lexad
Therefore on strategy:
I support REX strat
I support building Pyrs in StPete using pop-rush to its max (i.e. building workboat/worker to max hammers and then rushing to invest inflated overflow in Pyrs) as it is the best opportunity left
In techs I'd rather go for Alphabet hoping to get Sailing - we need it for GLighthouse (!) - and some other useful techs. We'd better not expect IW or Maths in trade soon.
Cities - either Green in circle or Red in circle followed closely by green on ?
If Greeks won't get culture 2+ in Sparta, fish will stay ours

That plan souns fine to me.

I have made my turn set
P.S. Internet connection at home become a real problem for me, so I am available from 9 am till 18 pm with +2 offset to Grinvich
[turn 1, 1840] - M/D - nothing happen
WB met Caesar, peace
Warrior met Hatshepsut, peace
Strange what they have +1 relations with them for long peace.
Look`s like Hatshepsut have an prebuild city this some cultural building`s (+2 culture),
have at least 2 cities
No one knows each other
[turn 2, 1810] - M/D Moscow build warrior set to granary
New warrior fortified in Moscow
Worker start build road to stote quarry
Scout-boat move along Roman border, found second Roman city
[turn 3, 1780] - M/D Moscow grow to size 3
Moscow set to build worker
Scout-boat met Gandhi, peace
No one knows each other
[turn 4, 1750] - M/D - nothing happen
Scout-boat met Victoria
Gandhi pleased with Victoria
[turn 5, 1720] - M/D - establishing connection between capital and SPB due to road to stone. Who can explain how? Sparta(Greek) build archer.
Scout-boat continue moving
[turn 6, 1690] - M/D - nothing happen
Moscow hurry worker for 1 citizen
SPB hurry WB for 1 citizen
[turn 7, 1660] - M/D - Moscow build worker, next turn add 16 to granary
SPB build WB set to Pyramids, next turn add 94
Worker goes for hill to build second mine, WB move to Greek border
[turn 8, 1630] - M/D - Research Writing, start Alphabet
Egypt - 3 cities, open borders
India - 3 cities, open borders
Roman - 4 cities, open borders
England - 3 cities, open borders
Greek - 2 cities, open borders, can trade
New WB see worker building farm over cottage :)
[turn 9, 1600] - M/D - nothing happen
Trade routes one per city for +2 with Greek, splendid
Scout-boat see London no building`s except Palace, size 6, 3 archer`s with no promotion
SPB expand in size
Can trade fish to Greek, give a gift, remember to cancel after 10 turns
[turn 10, 1540] - M/D - nothing happen
Start exchange Scout and Warrior in our island
[turn 11, 1480] - M/D - nothing happen
[turn 12, 1450] - M/D - nothing happen
Egypt have war charriot(Hatshepsut said)
[turn 13, 1420] - M/D - Stonehenge built far far away
[turn 14, 1390] - M/D - Nothing happen
SPB expand to size 3, warrior is in
Athens is size 7, top 5/5 city
complete mine 1
[turn 15, 1360] - M/D - Nothing happen
move worker to forest to pre-chop
[turn 15, 1360] - M/D - Nothing happen
[turn 16, 1330] - M/D - Nothing happen
Set to build Settler in Moscow

Good job ;)
establishing connection between capital and SPB due to road to stone. Who can explain how?

via water tile after Moscow border expanded.


Can trade fish to Greek, give a gift, remember to cancel after 10 turns

Is it really needed?

Some notes:
About ММ SPb - max growth to size 4, then max production is better.
Some dark tiles near SPb is very risky. One barbs warrior or archer may presents superfluous danger demanded momentary reaction.
EDIT About MM SPb - according GC file at 89 turn we must be 45/90 or 45/150 investested hammers. Where is optimisation? :)

Greek-fish: Is it really needed?

After 10 turns we get bonus for supplying resources, and we don`t need fish at this time.

About ММ SPb - max growth to size 4, then max production is better.

When SPB expand I set production to fish, mine and quarry.
SPB will expand in 13 turns, but red faces revealed after 14 turns. So now we can`t expand to size 4.

Some dark tiles near SPb is very risky. One barbs warrior or archer may

Yes, my fault, but I decide this is not to risky, I move scout and warrior constantly, but we get size 3 in SPB with higher production


About MM SPb - according GC file at 89 turn we must be 45/90 or 45/150 investested hammers. Where is optimisation? :)

I don`t understand you please explain :confused:

Some notes:
In Moscow we need only 1 turn to grow to size 4
We need 8 turns invest 60 hammers into settler
We must wait 7 turns until red faces gone
So after 7 turns we can switch to granary, grow, whip for 2 people and immediate grow to size 3

When SPB expand I set production to fish, mine and quarry. SPB will expand in 13 turns, but red faces revealed after 14 turns. So now we can`t expand to size 4.

Normal happiness level in SPb setup at 94 turn.


I don`t understand you please explain :confused:
Some notes:
In Moscow we need only 1 turn to grow to size 4
We need 8 turns invest 60 hammers into settler
We must wait 7 turns until red faces gone
So after 7 turns we can switch to granary, grow, whip for 2 people and immediate grow to size 3
See Gray Cardinal MM file. Second worker or settler must be started immediately after growth to size 3.

See Gray Cardinal MM file. Second worker or settler must be started immediately after growth to size 3.
My bad the only I can say :sad:

Roster:

Grey Cardinal
akots
IL2T
Iohar - just played
Lexad - UP
liar - lurker?!
Obormot - preparing
ProRock

My bad the only I can say :sad:

Nothing is bad, you played just fine. :goodjob:


liar - lurker?!

I hope not, so, liar, - prepare yourself. :)

I hope not, so, liar, - prepare yourself. :)

Liar: Last Activity: Nov 26, 2006 08:33 PM
I think session after Lexad will be very responsible! (Pyramids and Alphabet come to CFR-W :nuke: )

We're expansive so for any amount of hammers already invested >0 we whip granary for 1 pop.
I'll check out the situation and make a move tommorrow or later. Meanwhile team's support would be invaluable.

Caesar, Victoria, Gandhi have AH, Caesar has horses.This means the tech will be rather cheap when we discover alphabet as many civs know it.

This means the tech will be rather cheap when we discover alphabet as many civs know it.
This is true, if they know each other.

3 attempt city locations. Ваsed on attempt/version 2.
In this case we will have 5 new cities instead of 3. (total 7 in our island)
Main idea this placements is use two cities (purple and brown) to maximize growth and output other cities via fast access to food resource.

Cyan city may complete this conception. :D

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143831&d=1165436175

IL, I don't see how we gonna grow Red, Green w/o fish which would've been brought into borders by Red. Getting Cyan will give us 2 tiles and cost increase in ukeep for 6-7 cities at the leastm Brown - 3 tiles - don't think it's worth it.

Still gonna repeat my proposal: Red, grow via cow (get AH from trade and build pasture), rush monument, get boat, as soon as Red's borders expand create nets and transfer to Green (not in circle, on question mark). Work rice for Blue - rush - get boats for clams (make it later goal if we do not get IW early); later share cows with Orange.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143694&d=1165253500

Lexad
First, this is conception!

Second, example:
Building order:
-Brown (AH - cow improvement)
-Red (cow immediately)
-O1<-Purple(rice + two gems improvement)
-Blue (crab + two gems immediately or crab + rice + two gems immediately)
-O2<-Purple(rice + two gems improvement)
-Green(gem immediately)

Function of Brown and Purple cities is initial acceleration, then subsidiary (a little money and hammers)

As i saw, three start variation have many lack.

P.S. This variant greatly increase importance of Lighthouse and Kolossus (cost less 200 base hammers).

We need correct and accurate comparision all variation.

Why don't we just keep everything simple?

Great Lighthouse is a good wonder on such a map. I am not sure if we have enough time for it though, it is usually built quite early IIRC. Colossus is cheap and powerfull, but short-lived, so I think research Metal Casting early is not worth it. Philosophy and Education are more appealing to me. But we'll see.

I agree on GLhouse, but we need to build it in some latter city if we want to keep genetics relatively clean for GS and GE. Maybe copper city
I'd still prefer my allocation (we agree on Red and Green) because it:
1. gives us extra 7 tiles (comparing to Obormot's scetch) including 1 gem tile with 1 city (comparing to IL's)
2. Removes possibility of Hatty founding a city in our North, spoiling relations and getting own gems (Obormot)
3. keeps our acceleration cities efficient and strong even in the long run (IL)

I have recalculated the Moscow building. Has applied the most severe terror, starved three times of citizens (two on settler, one on a granary, one on library). +3 Happiness we shall receive from pyramids. We can grow Moscow up to 6 citizen freely (4 work, 2 scientists).

http://forum.civfanatics.ru/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1708

I agree on GLhouse, but we need to build it in some latter city if we want to keep genetics relatively clean for GS and GE. Maybe copper city
I'd still prefer my allocation (we agree on Red and Green) because it:
1. gives us extra 7 tiles (comparing to Obormot's scetch) including 1 gem tile with 1 city (comparing to IL's)
2. Removes possibility of Hatty founding a city in our North, spoiling relations and getting own gems (Obormot)
3. keeps our acceleration cities efficient and strong even in the long run (IL)

Your approach is definitely better in the long run, but there is another factor: we should build up our cities as quickly as possible. I think we built two cities instead of one in SGOTM-1 to get some long-term benefit, but then regreted it.


+3 Happiness we shall receive from pyramids.

OK, you are right, we can whip a lot more in the early game then.

I also like GC's approach, just maybe put an extra settler in Moscow cue for REX.
Your approach is definitely better in the long run, but there is another factor: we should build up our cities as quickly as possible. I think we built two cities instead of one in SGOTM-1 to get some long-term benefit, but then regreted it.
It's a cruel thing to say :( :D
Nevrtheless, now we have MUCH longer time period, and I've learnt since then to avoid counting sea tiles ;) My proposal allows us to grab almost all useful (=resource and cottage land) tiles with just 4 cities - 2 strong (Red GPfactory and Blue, both high commerce high growth cities) and 2 mediocre, which however allow us to grab several stonesand copper and some land. Also the allocation prevents our neighbours from settling on our land, creating border tenseness and probably stealing away ur resources. Unlike SGOTMs1 and 2, here war is not the goal, it will slow us down and spoil relations.

Also, if we would prefer the high-food Red GPfactory, maybe we can move Green to the circle location in my scetch, trading faster growth from fish for higher staring production allowing us to construct Monument and Granary from hammers fast (IL's proposal) and for extra gem mine?

I also like GC's approach, just maybe put an extra settler in Moscow cue for REX.

Note: We need accelerate Granary use MolB + InsF tile before growth to size 3.

... here war is not the goal, it will slow us down and spoil relations. ...
Goal or not the goal, we should still be ready, at least have a few units around the scare the potential invaders. As far as the relationships go here, there would be probably and most likely at least a few wars between AIs and this we cannot control. Hence, relationships can be spoiled either way and we would have little or no opportunity to prevent that if we keep our Open Borders agreements. So, even though it gives us some pluses now, it is rather dangerous to keep this going for a longer time, so those better be cancelled but with caution as well.

The war, small or big, might be needed in any case.

Totally agree that pecakeeping light force should exist, and at some points we should be able to churn an army rather fast - just saying it's not our major goal, which is scientific development.

I apologize for absence, now in a rate of events:) :blush:

I think that variant Lexad'a, on an arrangement of cities it is better than the others As we shall have 6 good cities.

Note: We need accelerate Granary use MolB + InsF tile before growth to size 3.

This is alternative variant: don't rush granary, but rush two citizen on library later. We not receive 1 red face.

However, if you rush granary first, the rush cost of lib for 2 people would be close to rush costs with 1 pop without granary. Under slavery regime the sooner you rsh granary the better. The cost is extra red face of course, agreed.

@Lexad
Any problems with your session?

Rules: One day to "got it" and two day to play

Nah, was a busy work week, today went with my friend to baptise my new bike, so I'm a bit tired right now. This evening or next day - the only thing left is to decide whether we should put another settler in a building queue earlier to get Green or Blue city. Sorry for delay, I'll check the timing and make my moves.

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/CFR_W_SG003_BC0850_01.CivWarlordsSave)

I’m intending to take more than 15 turns to finish Alph and check what we can get, so the next player doesn’t have to interrupt his turns in the middle or make hard decisions all by himself.
0(89). Piter to food, Moscow to Granary
1(90). Moscow to settler. mine ready
2(91). zzz...
3(92). Cancel fish to Alex. Met Kublai's trireme with our boat, he has 3 cities, judaist but not founder
4(93). Wood chopped, next – road to Red city to get +1 commerce from start and improve settler logistics.
IBT – barb warrior moved to around Green location
5(94). Kublai mutually annoyed with Gandhi
6(95). Kublai asks to cancel our deals with Gandhi, we refuse – he becomes annoyed. Piter pop4, work fish, quarry, 2 mines, Pyrs in 14 turns
7(96). Meet Toku (NW from Gandhi) - 3 cities, no religion, mutually annoyed with Gandhi, mutually pleased with Kublai. Moscow stops revolting, worker chops last wood for Pyrs (in 11 turns) and gonna cottage FP for Moscow
8(97). Oracle built by some1 we've not met in a pop 7 city. Kublai is west from Toku.
9(98). Rush settler. Kublai coped with frustration and allowed Open borders – gonna check where had he got Judaism – see French border
10(99) Go on with granary. Meet Louis the Rabbi Supreme (2 cities, know only Kublai(+5)). France has Henge and Oracle but in different cities, Oracle in Paris (8). Mongols have lhouse => sailing. 5 archers+settler in Karakorum, fish, corn, wood, river.
11(100), 1000BC. Great Wall built by some1 we've not met.
IBT - our culture is 8th, Louis – 1st, Kublai – 3rd, Hatty – 4th
12(101). Settler on place thanx to roads, city will be connected to trade network immediately. Worker builds cottage for Piter. Louis has met Toku, they are pleased. I get Open borders with frenchie to continue scouting, cuz Kublai is too far North. Louis is building a winery – seems he got Monarchy with Oracle, though no Hereditary rule yet. Athens is 4 tiles to the East of Sparta (don’t know the latitude though)
13(102). We found Novgorod, work cow, build monument. Move our fog-busters.
14(103). zzz...
15(104). Take the liberty of making 5 more turns to finish Pyrs, check what we can get with Alph.
16(105). Pop-rush granary to get overflow to library and rush it fast for 2 pop. Prebuild cottage shared for Moscow and Piter, get ready to run for cow.
17(106). zzz...
18(107). Gotcha! Revolt to Representation, start settler, citizen from mine to clam. Victoria adopts HRule.
19(108). Barb warrior approaches our warrior. Fortify.
IBT – win. Mao galley arrives frow SE (knows only Alex(pleased), 5 cities, can trade, has cow, needs fish and stone)
20(109). See Isabella borders south from Louis
21(110). Got Alph. Trades: can get agri, medi, poly, AH, Sailing, archery in most cases for Writing; Alex and Mao willing to trade IW for Alph!!! My proposal – trade with Alex as he’s the weakest, and later try to get Maths from Mao (not willing to trade now). MC is research placeholder, change to Literature when getting Poly.

I'm sorry for overdrafting my turn limit, but now we can more substantially disciss city placement etc.
I’d recommend cancel OB with Kublai and Louis as soon as we do not need them for scouting. Maybe Open Borders with Mao to get extra commerce, not sure if it's worth it – he’s from aggressive camp.
Thoughts on techtrading:
1. IW with Alex
2. First trade with peacemongers if reasonable
3. Do not trade Alph for now unless it's vital
4. First move the boat to Izzy, she might have some good trades on her.
5. Postpone trading all techs, we can get something we can trade for less valuable techs next turn (poly/medi, for example)
6. After we get Sailing we can trade with peacemongers, so prolly not open borders to Mao and cancel with Alex.

Further growth – use cottage FP in Moscow to get pop 4 and rush Lib. Rush settler in Piter for 1 pop. Let's discuss city placement - now with IW Blue location not adjacent to clams becomes more attractive.

Am I following??

yes, we just need to discuss development directions a bit

Lexad :goodjob:

I am not sure only about Monument in Novgorod. :confused:

Thanx!

Monument - for further expansion - get fish and land and either fish for Green, or cows for Orange fish for itself, or get fish, cows, rice and churn settlers and workers.

Great news on getting the Piramids, bad luck here would have ruined our chances to win the laurels.

We need to hurry up with settling the AI might settle on our island soon, many of them have sailing already, so we don't have that much time left. Moscow is busy building Library and NE, so SPB should build settlers & workers and nothing else, untill all the cities are settled. We need 3 more settlers and a HUGE number of workers!

About city placement: I think we don't need a 6th city on our home island, it is better to settle the small island in the south. We basicly get just one extra gem mine and a couple of grassland tiles for cottaging, I don't think it is worth it. The blue city should be settled at the chokepoint, between the clams and the rice.

OK, another topic is diplomacy. It is about time to plan everything carefully. I think it is about time to decide which civs are "good" and which civs are "evil". We should not trade with the "evil" ones to keep the good ones happy.

... We should not trade with the "evil" ones to keep the good ones happy.

The problem is we already did! :(

Nice job with Pyramids! :D

Indeed, liar is UP and Obormot is preparing.

But we obviously need to discuss more about what to do. And please, let's limit it with 10 turns from now on. There are not so many decisions to be made but these decisions might be critically important. Wrong step here and there and we are screwed. :crazyeye:

About following up the relatioships among the AIs: It is very important. We can tell the reasons and what is going on between them by selecting one of the AIs in F4 screen and moving cursor over the other AIs. The prompt window would then show up with information describing their relationship in great detail. We then need some sort of cross-table with all things between the AIs to be sure that we are making the right choice.

It aso seems that Mao is rather powerful (5 cities is a lot on this map) and Louis is also powerful with a number of important wonders. They might be "group leaders" within the AI camp at the present moment.

Luckily, it's not a problem yet cuz most civ's dont know each other, and the relations between them aren't tense. However, I agree we should cancel some OB deals (Kublai, Alex and Louis being #1 candidates).

City placement - let's decide on particular example, I still think we could use 6 cities on our island.

Also. I'm playing WOTM3 now and I've noticed civs are fond of pop-rushing wonders, so be prepared.

As for Louis, he's sitting in a cluster of war-mongers, and has already spread judaism to Kublai (L friendly, K pleased), so these can indeed become a strong alliance.

Luckily, it's not a problem yet cuz most civ's dont know each other, and the relations between them aren't tense. However, I agree we should cancel some OB deals (Kublai, Alex and Louis being #1 candidates).
...

The problem is that the turn they meet, we get the minus. And they can meet any time now with triremes and galleys sailing around. We can then later on try to get to Open Borders again if we want and for now, these deals better be cancelled imho. But ideally, we have to know all civs on the map to make the right decisions. And these guys would start making wars to each other pretty soon imho.

Another imho, for the beginning it is most important not to get minuses with those civs which are supposed to make "our camp" but since we don't know which civs would be in "our camp" we might be better off not making any deals except that one or two open borders which are beneficial for our trade income. Of course, Open Borders are required for exploration but can be cancelled as soon as we are out of their border.

Well done. Next proposals:
Move warrior from SPB to help fogbust. We have representation lots of hapy faces.
Trade Writing with Ghandi, Hatty and Mao for Poly, AH and sailing (priesthood) probably. Follow to Literature (not MC) or to CoL.
After library built in Moscow put scientists and cancel them at 1 turn before engineer will born. Then continue to grow Scientist.
SPB make settlers and workers.
Foe number one is Louis. Lol. He has religion founded and he has 2 wonders with prophet orientation. So it seems he ll build for sure Shrine. His allies can be annoyed with us but taking his first city we can convert to their religion to calm them. Anyway it is better to defeat Louis in 30 turns than later.
Our enemy at all are Alexander, Louis, Tokugava and Kublai as for me. Other are friends for now.

akots, actually we know our camp - Alex and Toku are braindead idiots, moreover, Louis and Kublai already have Judaism, and we will run under Pacifism for a long/all time under our own religion. So I th