Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Reserved for Team info posts (if we need any)

Hi all, a new adventure begins ...

I suppose you all saw my last post in our SGotM2 thread (edited few moments before this).

AlanH decided for 6 members/team, then he added Civicide ... welcome.

After the formal activities (subscriptions, team rules, member knowledge)
I hope we'll start to discuss about the game, i'd like to begin to play the very first day.

Welcome to you, Civicide! Please tell us a bit about yourself.

This info is mostly for Civicide, since the rest of you already know what a pain I am :mischief:; I'm American, but I spend most of my time in China, so I'm basically GMT +8. I'm a vanilla monarch player, which means I'm probably a prince warlords player.

I'm currently at home with family for the thanksgiving holiday, and will return to China next week. I'll keep up with the discussion as much as possible (I'm not spending a lot of time at the computer) but would prefer to play late in the turn order, so I have time to get settled in after I get back "home".

As far as I'm concerned, the order just like AlanH has it in the maintenance thread works fine for me.

Hey guys,

This looks like an interesting game -- 17 other civs, archipelago, no city razing, diplo/space victory only, PA enabled and aggressive AI. Can't say I've done this before.

Because this is so unusual, I've created a test game. This save was made before any moves, and the map can be regenerated if you want to try different map layouts. I made no attempt to match our starting position in the SGOTM as I think it's more important feeling comfortable with these unusual settings.

143048

EDIT: This is giong to be a test of our systems. 17 civs really slows things downs by 1000 AD

Hi everyone, and welcome, Civicide.

Thanks for the save, Brian, I'll have a look tomorrow (although, the Ashes are on, so I can't promise anything ;)). I rarely play archipelago, never 17 AIs, and space and diplo victories are usually my last ditch efforts, so this will be yet another learning experience for me. I'm guessing we'll need to be fairly strong in research, and I have always loved GL/ Collosus on archipelagos.

As always, the first questions are:
1. Where to settle? In place looks solid. Move the scout to the hill 1N or the hill 1N2E?
2. Techs? What are Peter's strengths - esp in W2.08? Do we want to grab a religion, get the Oracle, etc? Perhaps we wont meet many civs early (hmm 17 AI:crazyeye: ) so can we postpone alphabet and miitary techs? Well, I might have more idea after playing the test.

Hi all. Glad to see you in SGOTM 3.

I say we should play BrainS s test game individually before starting this one. Hopefully i ll my short report about my experience before we start.

Well, I just played a bit of this map after a couple of regens, and fouind myself miserably behind in tech at 145BC, and with no wonders. We're definitely going to have our work cut out for us.

Mind you, my little slice of heaven certainly wasn't a great starting spot, covered with jungle and without many resources. I spent many years avoiding growth in Moscow due to a lack of happiness, although my island is covered with dye that I'll be able to get to later.

I just popped alphabet and may be able to get close to tech parity, but Hatty is making a run and I haven't met everybody yet, so we'll see. For sure we're going to have to play very carefully.

It's a diplo/space victory we want, but I think we're going to have to whip out the old pointy stick early and often to keep the competition down.

I wished to post this after Civicide confirm, but i've sent him an e-mail after the PM you all received, then i go:

I DL Brian's test game, and play few turns, editing some tile to better fit with the official starting SS.
if you're interested, it's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Brian_BC-4001.CivWarlordsSave

About the system: i didn't noticed it's slow, but probably it can suffer when we'll know more map and meet some civ.

Early game decisions (my opinions):
- settle in place (pity to loose 1 FP, but...)
- our first research should be Fishing, probably followed by Wheel>Pottery or BW (most for whipping, but of course to see if there's some copper around).
- Moscow will never be a powerhouse, but a settler/worker farm in the early game and a GP farm later.

the map type is Archi/Archi, with no GH in our island (Gyathaar answered to this question).
probably an early religion is not possible (and not interesting), with all the spiritual civs around.
We can start to produce a warrior, working the FP, then switch to a WB ASA we'll learn fishing, continue to work the FP, and when at size 2 work forested Spices and a forest.

Of course much will depend from what we'll scout in the official map:
- If we'll have a very close neighbour we'll can consider a worker stealing, and/or to build a settler after the first WB.
- If not, we can build a 2nd WB, then a settler or a worker to cottage the FP and to road around.
- I suggest to move the scout in the hill E/NE

2 more attachments:
a SS with the autolog settings that i find useful.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

the autolog for the few turns i've play: those htm are well readable, and easily editable with MS Front Page. http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/autolog.zip

Game strategy:
Laurels are for diplo or SR
... i'm pretty good in the last one, a disaster at diplo ... but there's a 2nd way to diplo:
to own over the 60% of population, avoid domination limit, then vote for ourselves :evil: .

About SR:
I've play a test game, been alone in a 6 cities island, with optimal city placement and good resources.
I built all the early wonders, but ToA.
At a certain point i splitted, and:
1st split: 6 cities, not a single war, very weak military ... i was considered weak by the AIs, then almost all DoW me, despite my ability to build few but powerful units and a powerful navy.
no more than annoying, i razed some cities, kept one and launched in 1926.
2nd split: i made good use of my cossacks (against longbows), conquering 2 isolated civs and keeping all their cities, in a pretty good land (at least with lots of cottages/towns).
an AI DoW me anyway, followed by a 2nd (probably bribed from the 1st), just to loose 2 cities (one razed) to my tanks, GS and marines, not to mention their frigates, sunken by destroyers and battleships.
i was the last in power, but probably they learnt the lesson: launched in 1855, and with less fear to be invaded.
Conclusion: if you got a good economy, growth IS power.

About Peter's traits:
Expansive can perhaps help in the early game, but we'll have to focus on the philosophical thrait, lots of GPersons can be popped.
I hope we'll got stone, pyramids would be precious (better if built by some neighbour :evil: ).
We can try also an MC or CoL slingshot with Oracle, we'll see.

Waiting for your comments.
Sweetacshon: i had to search wikipedia about Ashes (here is just the first day of Lent, but probably is better translate with Cinders?) ... so you're a cricket fan?

Our aim should be make PA with tech leader if we are going to go for space victory.

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?
No, i didn't. I was far away the tech leader, i just wished to try the difference between a small, peaceful kingdom and the biggest and most advanced empire, ready to fight anything, given the same conditions until the middle ages (until education).

Another thought:
the laurels are for the fastest finish, not separate for SR/diplo.
usually (probably always) a SR takes longer than a diplo, especially if a diplo is sure, having all the votes needed; in case of a diplo, a PA will surely help, but don't forget it will be enabled with Communism, then after SM, very late in the game.

Then, let's sharpen our swords and axes.

Hello everyone! Good to be here! I'd have confirmed sooner but was out of pocket over Thanksgiving break (I see we have a very international team, so forgive my observances of Yank holidays!). I'm here now, though, and should remain in pocket for some time.

A bit of info about me. I'm American, currently living in Texas, Central Time Zone (GMT -6). I work full time, and occasionally my hours might turn out to be inconvenient, but I should be able to find the time to play some turns on just about any given day, provided I'm not on vacation or some such thing (as I may very well be over Christmas, but apart from that, I should be available).

This is my first SGOTM, my first SG at all, so it'll probably take a bit of practice to get comfortable with the submission system, so please bear with me.

As for Civ skills, well, I suppose that will just have to wait and see :lol: ... most of the time I play on Prince (Warlords 2.08), where I can usually pull off a victory if I'm paying close enough attention to what's going on. (I have a 2 computer setup and am an avid online poker player, and have a bad habit of playing poker on one comp and Civ on the other - not good for either hobby, truth be told, and I promise to avoid those impulses when playing in a SGOTM). I'm generally more comfortable as a builder than as a warmonger (usually gravitating to cultural or SR victories) but will do my best to adapt to whatever style of play the group needs.

Thanks again for having me and I'm looking forward to pushing Mighty Mother Russia to an obscene point total!

Yep, I'm a cricket fan, and the Ashes are the pinnicle.. there's nothing better than grinding the Poms into the dirt in sports they invented :lol:

You are a poker player, Civicide? I dabble a bit too, and you are so correct about keeping your mind on the job. There have been a couple of times I have had a bad streak of cards, gotten bored and started something else, only to realise that I'm folding AK or getting too excited all-in style about my 77. :crazyeye: And don't worry about the uploads, the page is structred really well, you won't have troubles. Just remember to "finish" the turn (but don't press enter, of course) before you save, and try not to leave any units on goto orders.

Right - to the game. I'd like to voice my opinion that getting a religion IS an option. I played the start of Brians save around 7-8 times (don't remember, it was late) and got either Bhuddism or Hinduism EVERY time. You just have to delay the worker and build a warrior instead, work a fp 'til pop, then fp and coast, and we're a shoe in. Having the religion, imho, outweighs the absence of the worker in the first 15-20 turns, through happiness, free culture, and of course, money. Anyway, try it yourselves: play the first 100 turns or so, and tell me if you can't nab a religion, the wonder of your choice, and spit a worker and settler out?? (most Civs seem to build a wonder around this time)

The game I played on with after convincing myself that the religion was no fluke, was only to about 1000AD, where it did start bogging down, this would be mainly due to my half gig of mem, but I'm on a laptop, so I'll just have to streamline.

Insights:

These maps always seem a bit production poor, so a judicious use of the whip is in order, and I think the capital will excel here. I farmed fps, and didn't cottage overly much at all. It is easier and quicker to get commerce from the sea. Thru the religious techs I built the Oracle, grabbed MC and then built the Collosus. The Oracle soon gave me a GP, and in went the shrine. I was always researching at 100%, and if I needed some cash, I put it on 90% :cool: GLH is also good, lasts a bit longer, but is less powerful, imo.

A worker doesn't have much to do at the start, no hills, no resources to improve, so we really needn't build one 'til BW... maybe even settler before worker. After this we'll need galleys, or perhaps triremes are better for exploration, and writing/ alphabet. Finding as many civs as possible is a must, espcly with a religion. From then on, it's settle, explore, spread religion, take what you don't already have, and find a few good trading partners. The tech rate is fierce with this many civs, and also wars escalate quickly.

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

Welcome Civicide! I hope you enjoy your first foray into SG.

Great discussion going here. I'm seeing some themes start to emerge. Here's my experience:

Being the Technology leader is a challenge-- I've played several test games on different maps through the middle ages. In my first games, I was left in the tech dust. With so many civs teching and trading at Monarch level, things move fast. It's easy to have and lose a tech lead. I found most success through getting Colossus and the Great Library and being very aggressive with trading. If I didn't trade quickly after getting a new tech, it quickly lost its value. I also started basing more tech choices what I could use for trade instead of what I needed. With 17 civs, I could often trade the same tech to a lot of civs if no one else had it. Blubmuz, it sounds like you were successful in gaining a tech lead. What worked for you?

The whip is your friend says Sweetachson, and I agree -- this is a food rich/hammer poor environment. Unfortunately, work boats are expensive in the early game but the whipping payoff is large. At least the city still grows while building them.

Enemy selection--with so many civs, things get crowded quickly. I think you just need to look at your 2 closest civs and pick the one you hate the most. For me, that's usually Montezuma...backstabbing SOB. If anyone's going to backstab, I want it to be me!

Wonder selection--I never went for the Oracle. Instead I tried to get these three: Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. I like to put HG in a decent production city that will also have an early forge and where an engineer specialist makes sense. It's nice to have a steady, if occasional, supply of Great Engineers--they lightbulb some nice techs and come in handy to rush a wonder. I consider any additional wonders gravy. I'm not so quick to go for Oracle on Monarch because it's too easy to miss and I don't like to give up the early opportunity to expand and build an army.

Interesting comment Sweetacshon about going for a religion. In my most successful game, I never got a religion and never converted to one. I'd gladly accept new religions for the opportunity to build monasteries and temples, but by not converting I think I kept more trading partners. Have I mentioned that there are 17 civs to trade with?

Sweetacshon put the first plan on the table:

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

I'm with you about settling in place and warrior(s) til workboat. On techs, I'd probably go for fishing>BW>Sailing>Writing, but then i'm not so sure about the religion thing. What if we chose the wrong god and are smited for our insolence? Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

No problems.. if there's anything I don't understand, I'll get drunk and try again.

Religion. you are right, there are 17 civs, so some will get a little annoyed, but trading can overcome this. I think if we can spread it around enough, we'll be fine. It is yet another CiV gamble like wonders or wars.

Welcome Civicide, then we got 2 texans, although 1 is half chinese (for his location, of course).
About the game:
tech leadership wasn't referrred to this game, but to another game (complete different settings) i've play as Peter, to test other choices (see my #9).

I agree with Sweetacshon plan, that is not much different from the one i used in my test (using Brian's map - see again #9)

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.
if we don't wanna risk a very early religion, we'll can use Oracle for CoL, as i did in the test.
A CS slingshot is not realistic with this map and with math required in 2.08.
The GLH would be great, but it's expensive also with stone, better the GL and the colossus, especially if we manage the MC slingshot.
I think we can convert to our religion, with 18 civs tech trading is not a problem.
I suggest to explore with a workboat, to be built some turn before writing (for open borders).
Please take a look at my autolog in the zip file.

Hot damn! Another Texan in our ranks! When I'm not traversing the inner reaches of darkest Asia, I also call Texas my home, Civicide. Specifically, the DFW area. Where are you located?

Regarding SGs, you may want to have a look at our previous threads to get a feel for the flow of the games. We go on a 24/48 rotation, meaning that the next person in line has 24 hours after the save goes up to post a "got it" message, and 48 hours to play. We try to coordinate strategies as much as possible given that this is a competition game, but ultimately, in-game decisions belong to the player, if they're comfortable making them. Nobody will squawk if you come to a point where you reach a critical moment and want to post the game up and discuss what's next with the team.

Maybe the most important thing for me to tell you right now is that points don't matter, not one bit. The object of this game is to achieve the fastest victory in the given conditions, and it doesn't matter if we have 1 point or 10,000. In fact, we damn near ruined ourselves in the final push to victory in SGOTM2, by design.

I haven't tried the religious route, but it may well be a viable option.

I don't think we'll have time to wait for a launch, so diplomatic is the way to go. We should try to gain as many vassals and PAs as possible, because they are guaranteed votes. Remember that we'll have to watch the dom limits closely during our conquests. As many puppet states as we can get is better for us. If we're going to gain vassals, it behooves us to keep them relatively healthy, so they can do decent research for us.

If we can get the early religion reliably, That would be wonderful. I think we should go for oracle, for sure.

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.

I really doubt we can get a very early religion with fishing first. They will both go very quickly. Judaism might be possible with fishing, but that diverges from the oracle route. Confusionism from the oracle is a possibility, but this means we'll have to get MC by hand, jeopardising the Collosus.

I think we should make a decision before playing:
1. Early religion - we need these techs for oracle anyway
2. Fishing first, then oracle techs - will aid early expansion, could use oracle for confusionism or MC... higher chance of missing a religion
3. A different early wonder, say Pyramids, ie masonary and a beeline to alphabet thru worker techs.

I am all for the early religion, but there are other ways of course: conquering a holy city, grabbing Tao, Christianity, or Islam, or even never converting, which would certainly keep some AIs happier. One thing to think of is our expansionist trait, ie extra health... not the greatest, but with a dedication to finding extra happiues, we can make BIG cities.

One other thing, HOF 2.08.02 is out, and we'll require that.

I propose this:
if we are not too close to another civ, and then we can delay the 1st settler, we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).
We can begin research Myst, while building a warrior and if we scout another civ close, switch to fishing (or complete then switch, it's the cheapest tech).
As you say, we need anyway to follow the religious path for Oracle, and 3 or for turns of delay fishing are not so important.
I suppose thet in this game the first scout move doesn't need to be discussed, then we'll can post something after 5 or 6 turns.

We all agree to settle in place?
i vote YES.
who will be charged of the first TS?

btw ... thanks Sweetsacshon for the support in the maintenance thread.
it seems some people is a bit Taliban (just a bit, no offense :mischief: ).

we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).

This is no longer the case in Warlords 2.08. The AI now prioritizes Polytheism (maybe for TOA?). I agree if we go for fishing first, we will likely miss a religion. So if we want a religion, we should go for it out of the gates, particularly with so many civs.

Ah, good point on the point total not mattering. I will revise my statement, then, to say that I look forward to helping push Mighty Mother Russia to an obscenely early Space Shuttle launch or Declaration as King of Everything!

While I currently live in Texas, I've only been there for a couple of years and have a hard time truly calling it "home". However, I'm not far at all from the DFW area, just a couple of hours NE in Paris, near the Oklahoma border.

As for the game:

Settling in place ... I vote a tentative yes, depending on what our scout finds on Turn 0. We should move the scout 1SE, which will reveal a wide range of sea tiles. Am I correct that the primary advantage to settling in place is so that we get the clam that is 2W 1S of the settler? If we find something like two sea resources over to the East that would otherwise be wasted, we might want to consider a move 2E before settling. This puts us one turn behind at the start, and wounds our chances of founding an early religion, but could potentially make Moscow a more productive GP farm as the game progresses. Moscow, settled in place, will be a commerce city early but might be able to run as many as 6 specialists in the middle game (pre-Bio). That's a nice GP farm, particularly with a Philosophical leader.

Presuming we found in place, I'm about 60/40 in favor of going for an early religion. If we do so, right now I think we should go for Polytheism right away, and not try to mess around with Fishing first. In Brian's test game I was able to grab Hinduism 2/4 times when I went for Fishing first, Buddhism 0/4 times. Fishing first gets us the first Work Boat quicker (and thus, the first worker and settler quicker) and makes early whipping very productive, but if you miss out on the religion you've just wasted a ton of research turns that could have gone to BW instead.

Once I get home (I'm at work right now) I'll run a quick calculation to verify how quickly we can get the early religions with our starting position with and without fishing first. That could give us a more clear idea as to how big a risk a fishing-first start would constitute.

I agree that we need to come up with a preferred long-term plan but would emphasize that we need to keep our options open as we reveal more and more about the map. Decisions like whether to go for Oracle vs. Pyramids vs. whatever else may be determined by what resources we have available. With a map this crowded, I'm sure that our only way to ensure a quick victory will involve breaking out the pointy stick early and often, but I would hesitate to commit to a specific plan out of the gate before I know the resources we have on our island.

Okay, after a little testing, I have determined that we should probably let the AI go for Buddhism and Hinduism, and worry about religion later, if at all. I just played about 20 test games (on Brian's, where the starting spot vis a vie early commerce is remarkably similar to our opening spot for the SGOTM), and have determined the following data:

Going Mysticism first, the earliest we can research Meditation is turn 23, and the earliest we can research Polytheism is turn 26. I'm pretty confident of these numbers, since the optimal path is quite easy - work the Flood Plain until we're Size 2, then add in a 2F 1C tile (the spices, in our case), where we get to our religion tech roundabout the same time we reach size 3. Variables in research like running into another civ that has Mysticism won't affect our research enough to squeeze out another turn.

Going fishing first puts us in a better growth spot when we reach the first tech, since we're well on our way to our first FB, but trying multiple methods of tile management I was never able to get Meditation earlier than turn 28, Polytheism earlier than turn 31.

The AI, in contrast, was consistently founding the first two religions in the early-to-mid 20's, with one instance of me getting lucking and the AI completely missing Hinduism unti I researched it on turn 31. Starting without Mysticism is just too big of a handicap. We might be able to eke out Judaism, but that's quite a bit of early research that we don't want to waste, IMHO, on something that's still a long ways from a sure thing.

I vote Fishing first with a Warrior -> WB build, BW early and cracking the early whip. We can steal a religion, pop CoL with the Oracle, or grab Taoism late if we want. Going no religion is also a perfectly viable option with all these potential trading partners. The beneift of religion is happiness and gold. We can likely get the happiness by aggressively trading for luxury resources, and get the money via trades or through breaking out the pointy sticks early. Peter is not a religious powerhouse - let's play to his strengths, not try to force our strengths upon him.

I want to qualify my statement about AIs prefering Poly in Warlords 2.08. In my brief experience with 2.08, that has been something I've noticed, and I've seen others report this on the forums here. However, last night I rolled a new test start using the new version of HOF. I tried a number of starts and the AI always took Med first. I was never able to get Buddhism, but I was able to consistently get Poly. Go figure -- maybe it's because the AIs are all from vanilla CIV?

I wasn't thrilled with going for the early religion. Without being able to explore much, there's nothing to do for the first 30 turns but hit enter. It made me itchy to explore and expand. Civicide, I agree that this strategy doesn't play to Peter's strengths and vote for the tech/build order you suggested.

Here's the new practice game under the new HOF mod in case anyone wants to try it: 143327

I want to qualify my statement about AIs prefering Poly in Warlords 2.08. In my brief experience with 2.08, that has been something I've noticed, and I've seen others report this on the forums here. However, last night I rolled a new test start using the new version of HOF. I tried a number of starts and the AI always took Med first. I was never able to get Buddhism, but I was able to consistently get Poly. Go figure -- maybe it's because the AIs are all from vanilla CIV?

I also had a much easier time getting Hinduism than Buddhism - I think I successfully nabbed Buddhism once, and that was a fluke where Hinduism was founded on something like turn 19 (way before we can get it) and I grabbed Buddhism on turn 23.

The AIs in the test game, at least, seemed to prefer Buddhism over Hinduism on the whole, but not to the point where they were ignoring Polytheism completely, definitely not the point where our grabbing Hinduism is really that likely. I'd estimate our shot at getting Hinduism at 50/50, maybe a little lower, if we go Mysticism first, and even that hurts, since it means two techs before Fishing.

About the only thing that might sway me is if we were to pop Mysticism from a goodie hut on turn 3 or something :)

There are no GHs, unfortunately, in our vicinity in this game... that's the map design.

So, I think I've said all I can for religion, we'll just take the vote and go from there. Oh, no, there is one more thing ;) Getting an early religion and prophet wonder with the philosophical trait will yield GProphets and hence a shrine very quickly. That's about all I've got.

You weren't wrong about hindu in 2.08 Brian, but the new mod is not influencing this, it has only some minor fixes (next one will have a good italian translation, too, thanks to your teammate).
Anyway the majority of the AI go for Buddha, probably 'cause it's faster.

I think a very early religion is too risky, better go for fishing, and try to build the Oracle (not in Moscow), use it for CoL, pop a GP and use him for the Shrine.

Then:
- build queue: warrior - WB
- research: fishing - myst?
- scout: as Civicide suggests, probably nw/e could be good
- who's first? i was in SG2, not again please.
15 turns is OK, or some more for this first TS? (most of the activity is hit enter).

edit: sorry, mistake: Civicide suggests SE, but if we discover another sea food nothing changes ... the only way to hook the 2nd clam is settle in place.
could be better hill e/ne?

edit 1, after Brian #27:
right, but don't forget that many leaders have change their traits
ahh and in diplo screen KK has now the face of Qin Shi Huang, and viceversa (a stupid change, IMO).

I agree that the HOF mod is not influencing religious preferences; I think it's probably governed by the individual AI programming. Since we're using the civs from the original vanilla game in this SGOTM, I'm guessing that they will still prefer Buddhism over Hinduism.

think a very early religion is too risky, better go for fishing, and try to build the Oracle (not in Moscow), use it for CoL, pop a GP and use him for the Shrine.

No, the only risk is fishing first, and then religion, at this level. OK, so it's at least 3-1, so I concede not beelining early religion. so its fishing first.

15 turns is OK, or some more for this first TS? (most of the activity is hit enter).

15 turn only, I think we should keep discussion going.

Red alert!!!

saves are ready: who post a SS with scout on hill e/ne??

don't forget to save, then restart from there :crazyeye: .

Ask, and ye shall receive. Let the discussion begin!

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6627/civ4screenshot0000op8.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000op8.jpg)

I can't upload a save because the system still sees it as the starting position. Whoever starts, make sure you make this scout move first.

There's stone there. I think we have two excellent city sites here. First guy needs to settle in place to get the other clam that's just offscreen to the W. Then we'll want to get a settler out ASAP. Second city site is right on the hill where the scout is standing.

Based on the jungle here, I'd say we were near the tropics on this globe.

EDIT: Here's my save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143418&stc=1&d=1164987736) after this move.

I agree with Merum--settle in place and get another settler out quick to settle on the hill so that we have some decent production.

Stone!! Do I smell pyramids? How feasible is it to get both Oracle and Pyramids on Monarch, anyway? Which is the priority?

In any case, agreed with all others on our overall plan. Settle in place, second settler ASAP on the hill where the scout is. Our two immediate city spots should make for a nice duality of early commerce and early production.

Seen SS and your comments.
No further discussion needed (just let's wait the rest of the team)

Completely agreed and ... the smell of pyramids has to be strong, i can feel it from here.

Then Fishing - Masonry - and writing through the religious path? (myst-poly-priest-wri)

I propose: i was the new one in SG2, consequentially,
the first TS has to go to one of our new members ... pick one ;) .

edit:
as Sweetacshon said, 15 turns, please.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

New man up! Come on, Civicide, this can be your audition. ;)

What's your plan for the first 20? You're our guy.

1. Ask to be skipped, or play your turns on time. Please don't just go missing in action.
2. Do not automate workers without first discussing with the team.
3. Do not order workers to make a terrain improvement over a forest or jungle, Clear the trees first i disagree with this, often a jungle re-grows if you don't build improvements.
4. Do not use city governors without first discussing with the team or clearly noting in your turn log.
5. If you change production in a city make sure you inform the team and leave any part-completed items on the build queue so all hammers invested can be seen.

6. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.
7. Finish all your turns and upload the game saved at the END of the last turn.
8. When it is your turn to play, it is normal to pick the game up within 24 hours of the new save being made available, and to post a new save within 48 hours of that (so 72 hours in total). If you cannot meet the deadline then your team captain may grant you an extension or skip you at his discretion.
9. Only post a "got it" message once you have downloaded the save and actually opened it in the game. It is not unusual for something to happen that prevents the save being opened.
10. Post a turnlog which describes your set of turns. Provide enough information, not only on what you did, but what your intent was for the next few turns. "Where is that galley going?" and "Oops that palace build was actually a pre-build" are not uncommon comments in the threads.

11. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
12. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.
13. The following http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126455&d=1147452086 are preferred except Wait at End of Turn which is mandatory.
14. Above all have fun.

The above is based on the guidance from the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread and copied here so it can be amended to our own needs. Please note that only the guidance is copied here, for the mandatory rules and shortcuts to the submissions page for uploading and the results page for downloading follow these links
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/1st_visit.php#rules

Copied from Perugia's post in our SGotM2 thread.

Time rules: (from above 8 and 9)
A) post an "I got it" in 24 hours after the last save is uploaded, or post a request to be skipped or swapped (possibly before your turn);
B) if something has to be decided, post your opinions and doubts, possibly with a deadline for the other members comments;
C) play and submit within 48 hours after your "got it" or after the deadline for team comments.
D) normally we'll play 15 turns each, and save in the middle of the last one, usually called "inherited turn", by the next player, that will start to count from the following one.

Turnlog:
Now that we play with HOF, life is easier; the option I showed at page 1 is better readable at home, but if you choose .txt with Forum tags, it can be ealsily copied and pasted in your end-turn post, and edited with your comments.
We can try and see what works better.

for any comment on my writing style, please see number 11, other comments welcome.

If recall correctly we used checking in order to form player turns.

But as a tradition new player should be first so here is my proposed turn order(used checkin in order after Civicide)

Civicide
Merum
Blumbmuz
BrainS
Sweetchon
Doom Train

As for the game I agree to settle in place.

:lol: If you're having the new guy go first because that's where I can do the least amount of damage, I assure you that I can and will find a way to screw something up! But 15 turns is not so bad, so hopefully the good players here can find something worthwhile in the rubble that I'm sure to leave :)

I have the save, but am at work at the moment (I put the save on a flash drive). I should get home at around 2300 my time (0500 GMT) and should rip through these turns before exercising my plan for world domination in GOTM13 :). I'll try to upload my result before I go to bed.

A tradition (started last SG ;) :p )
Don't worry, we are good people (i suppose)
Are we agreed about the tech path???

Nice to have another GotM player, it seems we are the only 2 (if i'm not wrong).

Edit after Civicide #39
too good, civ, too good.
you seem a good acquisition for our team.

Looking at the posts made in the meantime, the above post should NOT be treated as an official "Got it" since I have NOT yet opened the save.

As for my plan, I'll work the FP and start a Warrior until we hit Fishing at Turn 8 (should coincide with cult. borders expansion), where I'll switch the queue right to a FB and begin researching masonry. I'll continue with the FP until Size 2, where I'll work a grassland/forest until the FB pops. FB should come around the same time as Size 3, which will probably take me past 15 turns. In this time it's likely I'll scout as best I can, and try not to get our scout eaten by any wild animals. Sound about right? :)

Edit after BLubmuz's edit in #38:

too good, civ, too good.
you seem a good acquisition for our team.
Just wait, just wait. You'll be cursing my name, I promise :)

Personally, I kind of prefer trying to get a religion early, but I know I am in the minority there. Having the holy city in your capital very early in the game is a huge boost to gold, which means more beakers early on. This is a huge advantage.

I understand I'm in the minority, so I'm not going to squawk about it too much.

Civicide, your plan looks OK to me. I think you should play 20 turns, though, or until you get to a major event that requires discussion, whichever comes first. There's really not much to do this early but hit enter, anyway. Might as well get the slogging out of the way.

And if we end up cursing your name, it just means you blended right in. We're happy to have you. We picked up Blubby and Sweetacshon on the last game, and they worked out OK, I think. ;)

OK, this is the official GOT IT! Playing right now. :love: my 2 computer setup. It may come in handy in future situations where I'm playing and need to post a screenie for immediate feedback (I can take a screenie and upload it from my other computer within seconds without ever having to exit out of Civ)

For the record, I'm traveling, and won't be able to play second, as suggested earlier. Somebody else needs to take it after civicide.

Okay, turnset completed.

Highlights:

A bonus spice that we didn't see was in Moscow's fat cross, 2E

Buddhism founded in ADL, turn 12/13. Good thing we didn't try for it!

Our scout isn't eaten yet, but it likely will be next turn :(. Sorry guys. It's standing on jungle and is about to be eaten by a bear that just popped.

The island shape is basically a "C", so far, with the open end to the south, and while it appears I may be close to the edge of it, it may also snake off to one of the other "islands" that we can see over the water.

Things are VERY crowded.

I have uncovered no fewer than 6 gems so far on the island, along with two rice patties and one cow, in addition to some sea resources and the stone we already knew about. So far we could potentially have access to spices, clams, fish, stone, gems, rice, and cows.

The island is EXTREMELY hammer-poor, as we predicted. However, in addition to being rich in food, there should be a very nice amount of natural commerce available from the Gems, and since they're all but one on straight-up grassland, we won't have to sacrifice any food to work them.

Turn by turn notes.

Turn 1

Settle in place. Things of note right away: The square 2E of Moscow, previously in the fog, is actually a second clump of spices. Islands to the SW and NW appear to be distinct from our own, maybe distinct from each other. This is gonna be CROWDED.

Scout N, then NE, onto the jungle-covered hill. No sea tiles of note, but I did uncover a jungled-over grassland/rice, just out of the fat cross of our proposed second city.

Turn 2

Moved the scout onto the rice, uncovering more jungle.

Turn 3

Moved the scout SW, uncovering gems due W.

Turn 4

Scout onto the gems to reveal sea square, and I find some fish. Could be a very nice potential 3rd city spot developing, but it won't be feasible until post Iron Working and a lot of jungle-chopping, and might have essentially 0 possible production - food-heavy, hammer-light map indeed!

Turn 5

Scout NE, nothing new revealed

Turn 6

Scout NW, onto what could possibly be a nice city spot. Cows uncovered due N, making the spot that much nicer, and at least giving it a hint of potential production. Also seeing more gems on the shoreline over the water.

Turn 7

Scout NE, then NW. More gems revealed. More jungle. My Civicide senses are seeing a pattern develop here...

Turn 8

Fishing, baby, Fishing! Working on Masonry now. Cultural borders expand, revealing yet another island in spitting distance to the SE. We need to hire some units that can swim! Not much more revealed about the islands to the SW and NW except that they do appear to be separate. Swapped production to Work Boat.

Scout moves N, then NW onto a plains hill, one of the few. More fish revealed, these only in range if we settle directly onto gems (probably in range of another island, too, knowing this map!)

Turn 9

Scout SW, onto jungle. Looks like our island may be coming to an end. Yeah, this game is gonna be INTERESTING.

Turn 10

Our island is NOT coming to an end ... it's forming a big "C" with the island to the NW! Vewwy intewesting! Scout SW into still more gems.

Turn 11

Moscow has grown to size 2. Working grassland/forest in addition to the FP. Scout SW reveals clams and rice on a chokepoint.

Turn 12

Scout SW onto the rice. Not much of note.

Turn 13

Buddhism founded in ADL. Thank @$#% we didn't try for it!!!!! Scout W, then SW, revealing ... you guessed it ... MORE GEMS! And another island, to the SW.

Turn 14

Scout E, revealing nothing we haven't seen.

Turn 15

Uh oh. I told you I would screw something up! The scout moves SE, revealing EVEN MORE GEMS, to the E, but more pertinently, a pack of wild brown bears stands ready to eat our scout. They will attack prior to Turn 16, and we will be down significantly, 3.0-2.5. Not looking good... but it looks like most of the island is scouted out, although I already thought that once, and was wrong! An archipelago map this crowded could theoretically wind up being one enormous snaky continent ... that would be a hell of a twist.

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC3550_01.CivWarlordsSave). I think. Let me know if you have any trouble.

Some screenies in a post to follow immediately.

edit to add roster:

Blumbmuz <<<<< You're up!
BrainS <<<<< On deck (tentative, depending on where we decide to insert Merum)
Sweetchon
Doom Train
Civicide <<<<< COMPLETE
Merum <<<<< Away, travelling, unavailable for this TS (maybe worked into rotation later?)

Some screenies:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg
Our new, full fat cross.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg
A clean overview of the island so far

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg
The northern portion of the island

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg
The portion of the island around our tentative second city location

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg
The western portion of the island

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg
Our poor, soon-to-be-eaten scout :(

edited to put the screenies in spoiler tags, so that they're less obnoxious. Still learning!

Got and opened the save.
See my discussion with Gyathaar in the sign-up thread (268 to 271).

Then, we are isolated in a small island ... very close to the test game i was talkin' about in the first page, but we are definitely hammer poor ... curious to see the strategic resources.
No marble in sight, bad.
We'll can focus on Peter's philosophical trait with all that food around.

Civicide played 15 turns, then i'll pick Merum's suggestion for 20 (activities: hit enter 20 times, bury the scout and move the work boat).

We are isolated, but close to other land, we'll see if other islands or some continent, then our 3rd or 4th WB can be built for exploration.

I'll post some strategy after my TS, probably i'll complete it before night.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

Not a big duty, then already played.

IT: MM to speed up the WB
t1: with my usual lu... ehm ability, the bear decided to go south, giving mercy (don't know the right word) to our scout ...

Masonry learned in 3370
WB finished in 3310, MM to work clam
Moscow s.3 in 3160
warrior completed in 3130, started 2nd WB
Mysticism learned in 3100, started Poly (hindu not yet founded)
Scout to fogbust near Moscow
saved in 2980, turn 34 to complete ... next player (BrianS?) can go to 50th turn
the save is in the official page and here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC2980_01.CivWarlordsSave

not a single tile further revealed, thanks to that damn bear, then Civicide's SS are all we know.

comments:
The WB will complete 1 t before s.4, then i propose to switch a warrior and at s.4 a settler:
working FP, forrested spices and the 2 clams give us 6 gold and a good settler production.
then i'll finish the warrior and a worker (remember we got an hammer bonus for this)

We'll probably miss Hindu, but can go for Mono (judaism) and switch to OR.
not only pyramids, but the GLH should be considered, as we'll have ALL coastal cities.
I hate to loose that ph, but settle there is the only way to have the fish in the FC, and to quickly hook stone ... SH can be considered, too.

Roster:
BrianS (up)
Doom Train (on deck)
Merum (if he's still traveling swap with next)
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz (rest)

I have the save. Here is a proposal for city sites.

143518

Polytheism is currently due in 12. Moscow will grow in 8 and workboat will complete in 7.

There are some micromanagement options. If we want to gamble for Hinduism, we can work the clams instead of the forest/grassland. Then Poly is due in 10, Moscow will still grow in 8, but workboat will not complete for 9 turns. Alternatively, we can work the floodplain, in which case Poly is due in 11, Moscow grows in 6 and workboat is due in 9 (although workboat and poly will complete a turn or two earlier after new citizen is added depending on what she works).

I wasn't in favor of going for a religion, but since we're committed to poly, I think we should try our best to get it first.

Here are the techs I think we need to prioritize: BronzeWorking, Agri, Ironworking, Animal Husbandry, Masonry. Our quickest path to wealth is to mine the gems, and for that we need iron working.

I propose BW after Poly because it gets us slavery and the ability to chop.

We also need to stick in writing/alphabet to start trading, but the question is when. I'm surprised we haven't met any neighbors. I expect them to start appearing in my set.

Proposed builds: settler, warrior, worker

I'll play sometime today but will wait a couple hours to see if I get any feedback to the above.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

It's not hard :). You make the following, replacing all curly-brackets "{}" with square brackets "[]".

The text I've bolded is the link coordinates, and the text I've italicized is what actually shows up in the post.

{URL="http://www.google.com"}This will take you to Google{/URL}

That shows up as:

This will take you to Google (http://www.google.com)

A shortcut is if you use the little "insert link" button at the top of the posting form (you have to be in "advanced" mode)... type the net address where prompted, and the "URL" code will appear, with the text of the link already highlighted. You can type over the highlighted text with whatever you want to appear on the page.

Hope this helps.

General notes:

I agree with the idea to MM to push Polytheism ASAP. There is still a chance (however slim) that we get Hinduism, and barring that, a very good chance that we can get Monotheism for Judaism, since we already have Masonry. And even if we miss Judaism, with Monotheism, Priesthood, and Writing, we're just an oracle away from CoL or (and this will sound weird) Theology. I don't think I've ever slingshotted to Theology, and maybe for good reason, but it's a more valuable tech than CoL beaker-wise, making it more valuable for future tech trading, and it enables Theocracy early, which could be invaluable for early war.

Another thought: if I remember correctly, GP's lightbulb Theology at a very high priority ... basically its prereqs + Meditation. Let's say best case scenario. We actually nab Hinduism. If we do then I think we should detour to Monotheism and found Judaism as well, build a temple ASAP and assign a priest early in Moscow while we work on the Oracle in City #2, we could probably realistically grab both Christianity and Confucianism (CoL from the Oracle, Theology from the GP), setting us up for a strong religion monopoly, and giving us an expensive tech to potentially use in future tech trades. It means we can't build shrines until GP #2 and on up, but since Peter is philosophical that should be no more than a tiny hiccup. The bigger sacrifice is that it would probably be impossible to do all this and grab the Pyramids. This would be great if it worked, but disastrous if it failed.

Just trying to keep out-of-the-box thinking alive ;) I still vote in favor of bronze working -> iron working with agriculture in the mix to get 3-4 good cities up and running in a reasonable timeframe, but if the opportunity presents itself to grab as many as 4 religions early, we should nab it. Certainly I think Writing is a very high priority

As for city locations, some tough decisions early. Well, this wouldn't be Civ without that, would it? ;) Building on the PH gives us fish that we're not going to get otherwise, but Brian's dotmap gives us rice to compensate for the fish, and gives us gems as well. It also sacrifices being a coastal city (can't build FB from it, which could potentially be problematic), and is built on a hill that gives us no extra base production.

I think I tentatively like settling on the PH better, but it's certainly not a strong preference.

Thanks Civicide for your kind help.

Brian:
if we fail hindu, i'll get Mono first, so we can grab Judaism.
then the wheel, we need to move!
about cities:
red city: it's not coastal, i prefer 1S or 1SE
green city:it's OK if red city stays where you draw it, but if red city changes it's better 1SW
in this way we have room for a 6th city 1W of the northern gems
blue and pink are OK.
Civicide was posting when i was, then
there's another point for red city SE (ph): the GLH this can be the build queue (if we got sailing): Lighthouse - GLH - Pyramids
how does this sounds?

Rats!

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9155/ratsmediumdg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So I'm hearing requests to continue the pursuit of religion with Monotheism. Am I hearing correctly that we want to prioritize this over BW or Priesthood? Is there consensus?

there's another point for red city SW (ph): the GLH this can be the build queue (if we got sailing): Lighthouse - GLH - Pyramids
how does this sounds?
I assume you mean SE instead of SW? Moving the red dot SW, onto that plains hill, seems to me like it would be a disastrous city placement. Too much overlap with Moscow, no food resources, and killing our chances to get the clams and the fish to the east in any city's FC.

If we move the red dot I think moving it SE is the best option. Moving it S gives us three hills to work, in addition to the stone, but with only the clams for a food resource we won't be able to work all of them anyway until after we irrigate the grasslands.

And I do think we should move it. Having the city coastal, and having access to the second food resource right away (without any new techs, even), should jumpstart our early production once we fire up the whip.

That means moving the green dot SW or even W-SW. SW gives it only the rice and cows for food, but that's an all-grassland FC so food won't be an issue, it just means we'll need. W-SW makes the city a better GP farm in the long term, but impedes on the fish that the pink dot will eventually need (that said, with the proper MM, sharing a resource can still be a benefit - once the green-dot city is developed it won't need the fish, it's just useful for early growth for whipping).

Blue is perfect, pink is perfect, though if we find additional food resources with further scouting, a move SW or W-SW could potentially be in order. This would alleviate the concerns of moving the green dot W-SW and the fish overlapping.

How do you make the dotmaps? Just freehand with the strategy layer or is there some other trick I don't know about?

So I'm hearing requests to continue the pursuit of religion with Monotheism. Am I hearing correctly that we want to prioritize this over BW or Priesthood? Is there consensus?
I was pretty much just speculating. How many turns is Monotheism to research right now, and what can we MM it down to? Since we committed to Polytheism early (I might have gone for BW before mysticism, not saying it would be better, though) it would be very nice to grab judaism, if only for the possibility of running a priest to eventually lightbulb theology.

I think if we go monotheism now, though, that may put us in jeapordy of getting the Oracle.

I don't have much experience in early Judaism runs, but I'm concerned that whoever just grabbed Hinduism might already have masonry and might beat us to Judaism as well. That would pretty much be a disaster. Is that a valid concern?

Monotheism now seems high-risk high-reward. BW now is safer, but not as sexy.

I've played through completion of Poly. The workboat is now on the clams and a settler is started. The settler will take 16 turns to complete. This is when I wish we had BW and a worker. This is a bit of a risky settler in that we do not have any warriors. We have only the one scout.

Monotheism and BW will each take 14 turns to complete. This is as fast as they can be completed.

My vote would be, go for it, then, let's try to grab Judaism, I think the 14 turn delay will only hurt us marginally now, and the dividends could be quite nice in the long run. Hopefully whatever civ grabbed Hinduism is content with just the one religion, or we'll be able to catapult past them with our two fishing boats anyway.

I warn you, though, that this is largely territory that I don't normally explore. If there's anyone that feels strongly the other way, I would allow their voice to trump mine without question.

I think the risk of the settler without warrior is pretty small in this situation, since the site is so close, and since it appeared that the scout had been moved back where it can do some nominal fogbusting.

I agree on trying to get Judaism. Let's go for it.

It looks like a great start so far, and we have some really good territory to exploit.

Also agree with risking the settler without warrior. I want that city up FAST! It can build its own warrior when it's founded.

I'm in Taipei now, and should be at my apt in China before I come up in the latest proposed turnset, so let's go with that. Keep up the good work!

*runs to catch another plane*

*returns from the gate to add: Blubmuz, you can also highlight the word(s) you want to show instead of the url, and then click the link button (looks like a link of chain on a globe) and then put the url you want to link to in the box that pops up. saves typing. ;)

Yes, i was meaning SE,
correctly in my first instance (city list), and SW was a typo (now edited), when i edited after Civ's post
(danm, e and w are close in the kbd).

Judaism is worth the risk, pity we went for masonry, i didn't put a cent Hindu was so late.
If we manage to grab, let's revolt immediately to OR, a +25% building production can be crucial.
at this level often GLH comes very soon, then after Judaism
i propose to go for sailing:
the GLH is invaluable in this map, the more with our cheap harbours.

and thanks to you too, Merum for the help. ... have a nice trip

I think that's enough of a majority to go ahead and try to grab Judaism. Crossing my fingers! I'm not sure if we want to revolt for OR right away, though, or if we want to wait for BW and revolt into both Slavery and OR at the same time.

TGL + cheaper harbors should be a very nice synergy on this map, particularly if we're running OR. Is that +125% or +150% to harbor production? Either way, those are some cheap harbors :)

So I agree that TGL is huge, but Sailing next means yet another tech before BW? We will need slavery soon - when we hit IW we are probably going to want a fleet of 4+ workers to chop down the jungle and make room for our next city. If we're working on a Wonder in city #2, Moscow is going to have to be producing both workers and defenses against barbs. I'd hate to have to do that without a whip at my disposal.

The other advantage to BW first is, if it does reveal copper in our vicinity, it could help us choose an optimum location for city #2. I like the PH on the coast at the moment, but a copper source could easily change my mind...

I think Monotheism, then BW, revolt to OR and slavery, then Sailing. But that's just a gut feel based on how useful slavery should be in Moscow with two clams.

Long term prioritize IW over AH, but we obviously need both to see what our military options will be. If we're going for TGL I take that as a concession that we won't get the Oracle (I don't see how that would be possible), so Writing isn't as big a priority.

That means I would propose Mono, BW, Sailing, (agri?), IW, AH, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet. Somewhere in this we can hopefully squeeze out a GP, I'd say use lightbulb for Theology, which means we need Meditation first. If we get TGL it will pop us a Merchant in time - might want to look into lightbulbing metal casting for Colossus, though it's hard to turn down a long boat ride for a trade mission. Thoughts?

(edited to remove one potential justification for BW first, now very small, though I still think it's the right call. With BW 10+ turns away we obviously want to settle first before we can reveal copper.)

Well, the turn log pretty much says it all:

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Judaism has been founded in Moscow!
Turn 59, 2230 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

As you can see, I went a few turns beyond my allotment, but all I was doing was hitting Enter until Monotheism was discovered. Coincidentally, our settler completed on the same turn as Monotheism.

I started sailing as the next tech and warrior as the next build, but no turns have been put into either so can be changed without losing anything. I think a warrior is the correct next build, and then a worker.

As to techs, I go back and forth between Sailing and BW.

Also, if we are going to shoot for the Oracle, we'll need to research Priesthood soon.

NOTE: I did not adopt Judaism as our state religion. I assume we want to do this, but I thought I'd let this go the next person in case people feel this is not the right call.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC2200_01.CivWarlordsSave)

EDIT: I see Civicide posted while I was writing this up. I also vote for BW next.

AND ONE MORE THING: I agree with everyone who is saying to move my red city 1 SE. I really wanted the gems, but this will be our best production city and the one most likely to be able to build TGL, so we better put it on the coast.

Whoa!! I am away for the weekend, and will get home in 18 hrs or so, so will take a little time to digest all of this.

Sweet! I agree, warrior next, then worker. From there, player's choice (maybe a WB?) Barbs will be appearing sooner than we would like, though, and we need protection.

I think revolt to Judaism now, and OR as soon as we can. Found our 2nd city ASAP (what is the Russian city #2, anyway ... St. Petersburg?) - it should be safe if we still have our scout to bust fog with - and get our city #2 on the path to constructing a Wonder.

On that, now is the time to decide whether we want to prioritize what wonder we want (assuming we want one - I haven't heard anyone suggest not building one at all at this stage). I think our chances of getting both are slim, but our chances of getting one or the other should be quite good. BLubmuz has been making a good case for the GLH, but Oracle is still huge. I'm fairly neutral between the two myself.

Also, where do the Pyramids fit in? Are we assuming that with the stone, we'll be able to grab them AFTER GLH or Oracle? That's a stretch in my mind. Nobody's discussed the old standby of using the Pyramids' engineer to rush the Great Library, which gives us the two free super-scientists from Representation (not to mention the extra happiness), but that's viable too.

I know I'm posting a raw tonage here but this is kid of an important fork, I think.

Wow things seem to go in the right way, :goodjob:
Military units:
as i already told you this game is very similar to my test game.
I used what in civ 3 was called a "farmer's gambit": i mean i did NOT kept my warriors in the city, but 2 tiles away from the borders for fogbusting, until the city asks for protection.
The scout can help to this, fogbusting away from the warrior, and we can do this until all our island is settled.

I understand the benefits of BW, but start research sailing and build ASAP a lighthouse is a priority; in addiction, if our settler is ready, copper or not we have to settle, then for the time of next settler we'll have both.

I propose:
Tech path: sailing - BW - priest
probably our 3rd city will have the Oracle as first build, if we have enough production, otherwise Moscow will be charged of it, at the expenses to delay settlers production.
i think a very safe date for Oracle can be 1300, 1000 is a bit risky (BC, of course) pyramids can be safe until 500 or 400 BC, if not later.

At epic speed, every civ change requires 1 turn (unless you got a large empire, that means 2, to a max of 3).

I think as far as wonders go, I'd try to build the pyramids, then use the GE from it to pop another wonder.

Tough call on BW and priesthood. I might be inclined to do priesthood before BW, to ensure we get a good start on the oracle. However, we can use slavery to bang hammers into the oracle if we have BW.

Why are we doing sailing first? Somebody convince me this is a good idea. Seems to me the other two techs discussed are higher priority than sailing would be.

Merum, the reason for sailing first is the GLH.
I'm afraid that the time for build pyramids and to wait for the GE would be too long for GLH.
OTOH the time for GLH and pyramids can be too long.
We must try to guess the production rate of our 2nd city, and decide what can best work.
We have to took some risk, of course ... it's a big bet.

I agree with the techpath which is sailing -> Bronze Working

Our short term goal should be getting Great Lighthouse as soon as possible. I like the `farmers gambit`. Our current situation is perfect for it.

DT - you're up

Never heard of a name for that strategy before, but I guess I do the "farmer's gambit" all the time. I rarely do it if I don't have roads, though. If it's sailing then BW, we need to grab the wheel immediately after.

Speaking of roads, we're going to need them if we plan to use the stone. Where does the wheel fit into our research plan?

As I said... whoa!!! I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but I think the next TS should be well considered before being played. Our start was great, but from one coming in after a few days, it seemed a little wishy washy... in that we had definate plans to NOT go for an early religion, yet most of our research seems to be in that direction! I'm not saying I would've done any better, just that we shouldn't rush things, especially on an early wonder decision.

OK, here are some issues I have:

1. We probably shouldn't go for wonders without BW and a worker to chop... there is nothing more painful than losing an early wonder by a turn or two.
2. BW will help with city choice and of course the whip. (why would there be that little river just N of Moscow, btw?)
3. Which wonder will actually aid us most, considering we don't think we'll get them all, and keeping in mind the winning conditions? The oracle is that big short term tech boost, but also gets a GProphet quicker. The mids are more an all rounder, ie or research/ commerce, etc, and of course the GE. TGL will really boost commerce on a map like this, but so will the Collosus for water tiles (although TGL seems better suited in this map so far).
4. If we wanted to forgo TGL, religion (+shrine etc) spread to our neighbors can outweigh the wonder. Aggressive religion spread could be very useful.
5. With so many AIs, the tech rate will be high, and the earlier techs soon cheap. I thhink after we decide on the wonder(s), we should get to alpha asap, and pick up things like AH (not very useful yet, imo) in trade.

I guess what I'm saying is that we need a clear decision based on what will aid us toward a win, and the crux right now is which wonder to build. Personally I think we can do without TGL IF we spread Judaism soon, usually I'd go for the oracle, esp for the GPr, but it is short lived, whereas the Mids is on the other end of the spectrum, coming into its own when we grow further. So my vote is pyramids, followed by the oracle, and this means hooking the stone up asap, ie roads first, then BW.....

Hmm... I don't mean to say so much when I haven't had all that much time to study the game.. I just wanted to gt thoughts down. I agree with the city placements btw, pending BW.

DT - you're up

oh ok got the save. I ll play tomorrow.

Sweetacshon, good thoughts. As I move up the difficulty ladder, I find myself relying less on building wonders and more on taking them. With such a crowded map, I don't want to spend too much time building wonders. We need to expand quickly. That means quickly settling our island and some nearby ones. I played a test game starting on an island just slightly smaller and less endowed than this one. It was, however, next to a larger island that had 2 civs on it. I was able to quickly establish one city on that island, and it paid off big time as a beachhead. I was able to ferry across a troop buildup in that city using just one galley and take on one of the other civs.

Bottom line, I do agree we should have a focused approach on building wonders and not go for too many. I'd support Pyramids, Oracle if still avail, TGL. I'd also probably build The Hanging Gardens in the Pyramids city -- make it a real GE farm.

DT--can you post your plan before you play? I agree with Sweetacshon that we want to think this through and agree on a strategy.

Ok i ve just studied the save and here is my plan. Btw I ll not start my turnset until we all agreed about short term and long term plans.

1- Production in Moscow will be Warrior->Worker.

2- Tech depends on wonder build we choose. I ll edit this one according to our choice.

3- Second city will be placed here as we all agreed.
http://img102.imagevenue.com/loc600/th_70066_2nd_122_600lo.JPG (http://img102.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=70066_2nd_122_600lo.JPG)

4- I ll adopt judaism as a state religion

As for early wonder, I think that GLH is very important wonder for this map but we can build pyramid then oracle as Sweetchon suggested and hope that the civ that builds GLH is somewhere close so we can take it quickly. In this case our research path would be Wheel --> BW.

Hi, Doom
Sweetacshon is right, we (probably me first) was a bit confused, perhaps too much involved in the "religion race".
and BrianS too has some good point
your questions:
1 - Warrior first for sure, a worker now can only build a quarry ... IMO is better a workboat, then worker
2 - if we choose GLH, sailing first / if not, the wheel - BW (we already decided the placement of our 2nd city, so what can we do if it pops in a bad place?)
3 - settler is ready, and that hill is good, so settle there ... build queue: Pyramids, eventually change to lighhouse if we decide to try GLH
4 - Yes, then change civic to OR (+25% on buildings)

the sad thing is that we can probably build one of those, but not both ... i bet on Pyramids, usually never saw completed before 500BC, but the GLH is precious on this map, so ... i chickenly (?) abstain, and lurk the team opinions.

At this point, I'd go for a worker before another workboat. The workboats are expensive and are all used up on one resource. We need a worker to, for starts, build a quarry for the pyramids, build some highways, chop some forests and build some mines. I think there will be plenty for him to do.

Agreed. Worker before workboat, though I'm certianly not opposed to using Moscow to build a workboat for St. Petersburg at some point.

We need the wheel before we can take advantage of the stone, so I'd vote for the warrior first.

I also prefer to go for the pyramids, rather than the GLH. I think the benefits of the pyramids are far greater than the GLH, which won't really help us that much until we have a bunch of cities, and the techs to benefit from the trade routes. The pyramids, on the other hand, give us access to all government civics, as well as GE points. Busting out a few great engineers early in the game can give us a huge advantage, allowing us to build advantageous wonders we wouldn't otherwise be able to. (Can anybody say pyramids/hanging gardens in the same city? :mischief:)

If we go for BW relatively early, we may be able to chop out the GLH in another city while we build the pyramids, anyway.

I'd research wheel>BW>Sailing, but I'm funny that way.

The obvious winners of the last game were the ones that gambled. I'd rather gamble and have a chance for a huge payoff and risk a spectacular loss, than play a middle of the road game and finish in the middle of the pack. That's just my personality. Let's live a little.

The obvious winners of the last game were the ones that gambled. I'd rather gamble and have a chance for a huge payoff and risk a spectacular loss, than play a middle of the road game and finish in the middle of the pack. That's just my personality. Let's live a little.

I agree with this ... or is a metal laurel or death.

Then i agree also with Merum's suggestions

I agree with this ... or is a metal laurel or death.

Then i agree also with Merum's suggestions

Now that's what I'm talking about! A bullet or a brevet!

Let's go, guys... I know we can win this if we hang it out there. (either that or we'll all have a good laugh about our wooden spoons) :D

L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!

Well, I just meant to get everybody thinking before we continued... and now everybody seems even more fired up!

TGL is by no means a poor choice... all wonders are useful. Has everybody given up on them? The trouble with me is that I rarely go for the Mids... just today I was having a crack at gotm13, got the mids, and forgot to actually use the govt civics until about 900AD, 2000 odd years odd after building... just pathetic.

Anyway, if we ARE doing the Pyramids, we obviously want the city and worker for the stone, but do we want another settler out before the wonder? Three cities are of course a big advantage over 2, and we'd have time to hook up the stone, but would this jeopardise the wonder?

Good question about the settler... I was assuming that we would build pyramids in St Petersburg, not in Moscow. St Pete's is going to be the better production city of the two, but it will grow fairly slowly.

Another important consideration, not for this turnset, but soon, is that we're going to need IW to clear all that damn jungle. I really think we should get hammers for clearing jungle too, wood is wood, after all.

Sounds like we have a plan. Warrior -> Worker. Wheel ->BW. Mids in St Petes. Go for it DT!

Ok starting the turnset now. I ll post report and save tommorow...

Well i couldn t sleep so decided to play:)

Turn 1 : Adoption of Judaism started.(1 turn anarchy)

Turn 2 : anarchy is over. wheel is 8 turns away.

Turn 3 : Met Alexander!.

Turn 4: Founded St.Pete.

Turn 5: Science slider decreased to %90 because we dont have enough money to support %100 ( 5 turns left for Wheel)

Turn 6: I realised there is a clam so swithed production of St. pete to workboat. Investing hammers to mids with 1 pop is inefficient anyway. Workboat will be completed before worker hooks up the stone.

Turn 7: nothing

Turn 8: Judaism spread to St. Pete

Turn 9: Discovered Wheel started BW. Warrior completed in Moscow started Worker.

Turn 10: Nothing

Turn 11: Judaism spread in Beijing and we met Mao.

Turn 12: Mao converts to Judaism

Turn 13 - 15 : Nothing

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC1780_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 60, 2200 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Fifth Element converts to Judaism!
Turn 60, 2200 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 63, 2110 BC: St. Petersburg has been founded.

Turn 64, 2080 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 66, 2020 BC: Judaism has spread in St. Petersburg.

Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 69, 1930 BC: Judaism has spread in Beijing.

Turn 70, 1900 BC: Mao Zedong converts to Judaism!

Nice :) The spread of religion could potentially be very important.

Question: is it kosher to peek around in the save file even if I'm not scheduled next, so long as I don't move anything? I think that would be much more helpful than relying on bandwidth-wasting screenshots and time-consuming descriptions. I'm curious to peek but don't want to do anything that's not within the rules.

Yes, you can look at the save at any time. As long as you don't change anything that gives you knowledge you can't see from the save as you open it, you are free to poke around in there.

Okay, a few random thoughts...

We will be competing with Sparta over cultural control over the fish tile between us. This is fairly important as those fish are integral to St. Pete's ability to thrive as a production city. Having judaism there will help, of course, but a Wonder will solidify that control. That is, assuming Sparta stays in Greek control for a very long time :)

Don't forget to switch to OR before we start building stuff. If we switch to OR and slavery in the same turn, is it still just 1 turn of anarchy? If so, we should definitely do that. If not, we should still probably do that, to prevent from having to do it twice. We obviously should wait for the worker before any revolt, though.

Beijing is in a nice spot for a well-rounded capital, with much better production vs. Moscow and plenty of potential for commerce.

Mao getting our religion should be good in making us friends for the time being, and on a map with 17 opponents, friends are good. With Beijing having at least three resources we don't have (ivory, corn, crabs), the city would be a very nice one to take, but I'm hesitant to DOW on someone that grabbed our religion so early on such a crowded map. Mao being protective will mean that his cities will only be that much tougher to crack. Whether to go to war with them may depend on who else we contact in the near future. Someone almost certainly has to be on the island to our SW. Unless they get religion too, that might be a better choice.

Judiasm has 8% influence. Hinduism has 15% influence at the moment, wherever it is. Ouch. Buddhism, only 2% influence. This could very well mean that the same civ grabbed both Hinduism and Buddhism. The turns in which they were discovered would certainly allow for that.

Sparta is built right on top of Stone. Alexander is almost certainly trying for a Wonder of some sort. That's the bad news. The good news is, we could probably take it if we wanted, whatever it is :)

Since Mao and Alexander share an island, Alexander should grab Judaism before too long as well. This means war with one will likely eventually mean war with the other, as they'll be friends.

If we get sailing soon, we may want to go looking on the island to the SW for city spots before we worry about our forthcoming massive jungle chop. Maintenance will actually be less, and there are already two hills visible. If there's any food in the vicinity of that corner of the island, that could wind up turning into a good production city spot, and with hammers in such short supply on our own island, that could be invaluable. Also, assuming there is a civ on that island, that spot will be eaten up much more quickly than the spots on our own island. I'm just a little hesitant to wait for a massive chopping operation before we can get a third city up and running. I think sailing next may be in order, and whip a galley in Moscow for exploratory and expansionistic purposes.

OK , Gents... I have the save, but right now I'm drunk on baijiu, which, for you uninaugurated western heathens, is roughly a cross between jet fuel and everclear. It's probably best if I don't mess with it right now, so I'll play tomorrow. Consider this your feedback period. :D

Sweetacshon, you're closest, I think you should haul your butt up here and experience it for yourself. ;)

EDIT: By the way, extreme drunkeness and glass furniture don't mix. Consider that a word to the wise. ;)

Merum, is baijiu the same as the so called "rice wine" in China? If so, I know where you're coming from. For those who are not familiar with it, do not be fooled by the term wine. This is distilled, and it's nasty!

Sweetchon is up next.

I post a new Roster (the old one is buried somewhere):

Merum (up)
Sweetacshon (on deck)
Civicide
Blubmuz
BrianS
Doom Train

And some toughts:
I agree about WB in S.Pete first, Pyramids would be a waste without stone hooked
Moscow: after worker WB - settler - warrior (again, farmer's gambit)
Revolt to OR right after S.Pete finishes WB (useless right now)
Research: after BW Priesthood - writing (writing costs less with its prerequisites)
How about an exploring WB?

And a reflection:
What is doing a 100% abstemious here?

Brian, yes, it's the rice wine. Here they call it "white wine", which is literally what baijiu means (bai=white and jiu=wine). I'm a bit of a VIP and a celebrity here, which means everybody has to come and toast me at every function I attend. Such a life. :rolleyes: Anyway, it's a good thing I'm a good drinker. I had an american customer here last month, who took one glass of the stuff and had to go to the bathroom and hurl. It was great fun. :mischief:

Sorry guys, but I'll have to skip or swap, as I am away over the weekend (home Monday arvo). Merum, I wouldn't mind a trip to China, but EVERY weekend is booked up - it's that time of year... I'll just have to settle for Sydney instead. ;)

To the game... the plans sound good so far, and good to see Judaism has spread. Land will be at a premium on this map, so we should get exploring boats out asap; for settling, spreading religion, and for identifying targets. Also a good idea to look at the nearby islands before the jungle.

Anyway, goodluck til Monday!!

Well, I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is that Alexander wasn't building the pyramids with his stone. He built the great wall, instead.

The bad news is that somebody else built the oracle on the very same turn. :(

Some other bad news is that our scout got munched by a barb warrior when I moved him out of our borders for a looksee.

Some other good news is that we have copper on our island, across the bay from Moscow.

I used the HOF Mod autolog feature, but I guess it doesn't really provide any editorial additions, and I forgot the shortcut key to add comments to the log in the game.


Turn 75 (1750 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 76 (1720 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 77 (1690 BC)

Turn 78 (1660 BC)

Turn 79 (1630 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
St. Petersburg grows: 2

Turn 80 (1600 BC)
Research begun: Priesthood

Turn 81 (1570 BC)
Judaism has spread: Guangzhou (Chinese Empire)

Turn 82 (1540 BC)

Turn 83 (1510 BC)
St. Petersburg's borders expand

Turn 84 (1480 BC)
Moscow grows: 6

Turn 85 (1450 BC)

Turn 86 (1420 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 87 (1390 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood
Moscow finishes: Work Boat
Judaism has spread: Sparta (Greek Empire)
Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (2.00/2)

Turn 88 (1360 BC)
Research begun: Sailing
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 89 (1330 BC)


It does make nice pretty colors though. :D

I revolted to slavery and OR after we researched bronze working, and while the quarry was building. We can now whip and chop to our heart's content.

I started sailing after priesthood, because it will be a lot quicker to sail the settler from Moscow to the copper than to walk all the way around. There's a workboat in the south that I built for exploration, but we also have the fish tile S of St Pete's now, so do with it what you will. Moscow is building another warrior because the barbs are here, and I felt we needed a little more defense.

Bummer about the oracle, but that's the way the ball bounces sometimes, I guess. Whoever built it probably had marble.

Judaism is spreading nicely, and at the end of the turnset, Alexander decided to be Jewish like us.

teh save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC1330_01.CivWarlordsSave)


Turn 79, 1630 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Fifth Element adopts Slavery!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Fifth Element adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 81, 1570 BC: Judaism has spread in Guangzhou.

Turn 83, 1510 BC: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!

Turn 84, 1480 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!
Turn 84, 1480 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.

Turn 87, 1390 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Judaism has spread in Sparta.
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Scout (1.50)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Fifth Element's Scout!
Turn 87, 1390 BC: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!

Turn 88, 1360 BC: The enemy has been spotted near St. Petersburg!
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Alexander converts to Judaism!

hmm it seems judaism spread to Greece. Havethey adopted it as a state religion?

Good turnset. Nothing to be done about the Oracle. Good thing we didn't try for it - we'd have never made it.

Okay, if we skip Sweets, then I would be next, right? If so, this is the "got it", I have the save open now but won't do anything until we verify the order. I'd hate to wait through the whole weekend.

Judaism is now at 11% influence. Hinduism has dropped from 15% to 11% ... Buddhism is still at 3%. That probably means that the cities with Hinduism aren't growing as fast, and that it's not spreading.

Mao is +3 to us, Alexander is +2. They are +2 to each other, and already have an active trade: Mao's Ivory (!) for Alex's Clams. Both of them will have the ability to make elephants in the future. Mao is willing to trade us cows but we don't have anything to trade them.

What's the production plan in Moscow? It will grow in 4 turns and become unhappy. This is as good a reason as any, I think, to whip the warrior and work on something else. Probably a settler for city #3, which I would suggest using a galley for. Once the settler is done we should build a galley for it. It will take a settler 13 turns to walk to our obvious next city site, the pink dot on BrianS's original map, across the bay to hook up the copper. More, actually with a warrior escort, which we would obviously need. With a galley, it's three turns, and if we have whip overflop from a settler, a galley should be done in Moscow before that, and it'll be much safer. The galley should be loaded with the settler and our new warrior for immediate defense.

After that Moscow should start thinking about a temple, for happiness, and so we can work a priest to build the Temple of Solomon. That's 5 gpt right now, which will be massive, and will only increase (if we have nothing better to do with our galley other than explore, we might even consider loading it up with a missionary).

Once the stone is hooked up in St. Pete's, we might want to wait until it's size 4 and then whip a monument, spilling the overflow back into the Mids. This will help solidify our hold over the fish for the time being, and use two population more efficiently than the one for a warrior, with the same happiness penalty. It'll grow back quickly with the seafood.

What I'm up in the air on is what to research after Sailing is done. My gut tells me AH > Pottery > Writing (it'll be a while before we need Agriculture for rice, and with our food in moscow, we're better off cottaging), but much of the time my gut has poop for brains :)

Reading through my rambling again, I think these are the things we need to determine before the next TS:

1) Where will our next city go? For now our choices appear to be, (referring to Brian's dotmap), the pink dot across the bay, to hook up the copper, or near the green dot, North of St. Pete's, to work the cows and gain access to gems as we hack down the jungle.

I vote pink, no real contest. It will be another decent production city early (5h for the copper alone), and will give us gemsx2 once we get IW. (green dot can only give us gems x1, though it will have better food with the cows). And it will let us build axemen, which should guarantee our safety from barbarians on the island, and give us the first workings of an early army.

The downside is, until the cultural borders expand, pink-dot will be pretty much worthless, meaning we need to hope for quick religion spread or wait for a monument to build. It will have no access to 2f squares until we either chop jungle or the borders expand, making it a slow process. We may wind up having to chop forest for a quicker monument, something I hate doing with limited trees available.

1a) Assuming we build across the bay, do we walk the settler overland or wait for a galley? Overland is much riskier but could wind up being quicker.

Here I vote for waiting for a galley. We should be able to whip one fairly quickly (probably sacrifice 2pop for the galley 15 turns after we whip the warrior that's building), and there's essentially no risk to expanding that way. Plus, having a galley early will be a benefit anyway, since we need to start making contact with people to get a feel for what we're up against.

2) What should we prioritize in terms of research? To me it looks like Writing vs. Iron Working. Writing for open borders and libraries for scientists, vs Iron Working for the reveal of iron and to chop jungle.

Tough call here. I'm not sure if I have an initial vote. This kind of hinges, I think, on whether we want to invade someone early. Since we seem to have made friends with Alexander and Mao, for the time being, by virtue of our religion spreading too quickly, I'd be loathe to waste potentially good friends (if Alexander is on your side in particular, he can be a nice attack dog), but then again, Alex already has one Wonder, and with the GW popping him an engineer, he will probably get another one soon. That, and the fact that that island looks like it has some very nice city spots, paints a bullseye on both their foreheads. Like I said, tough call. I think I lean toward IW first, since it will help out our economy as well via jungle chopping and giving us access to all those gems.

Thoughts?

Also, who's playing this TS?

You're next after sweetacshon, so you get to swap with him.

As far as city placement, I favor a city 1N of the copper. That site gets us the copper and 3(!) gems. On top of that, it's still coastal. The obvious downside to this site is that is misses the fish, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. That site will also spread our culture outward from our island better. The borders will also touch Moscow's giving us early "free" cultural expansion.

We are in OR now. That means we can build missionaries without monasteries. We can send a missionary to the new city to ensure quick religion spread, and thereby get our cultural expansion.

I think we'd be better having Alex and Mao as trading partners and friends early. I'm sure there's somebody else close by we can whip up on, we just have to find them. :mischief:

You always have a vote in this game, Civicide. We may rib you for being the new guy, but we are all absolute equals here.

Now go kick some ass. :D

Okey dokey, I went ahead and played the TS.

Started off uneventful, but a few highlights did occur:

1) Contact with Hatshepsut. On an island up to the NE that we hadn't seen before. Judaism spread in Memphis and Hatty has now converted, giving us no fewer than 3 fellow rabbi-centric cultures in as many civs. (We need a temple and priest ASAP!) I also started a trade with her, our clams for her cows, which we could do now that we have Sailing (I started work on AH, figuing it's a safe tech that we will need soon regardless). We don't need the cow but the trade can help relations if nothing else. (Besides, how many people are there gonna be on this map without access to clams? :D)

2) The Great Lighthouse was completed, by our good friend Mao no less. Turn 100, earlier than like 1000 BC. I don't think we'd have made it had we gone for it. I guess that settles that debate.

3) Whipped the warrior in Moscow just to overflow into our Settler as it became unhappy, Settler is now complete and awaiting instruction. I moved it N to some safe squares but we will likely want to put it on a Moscow Galley. We can whip a galley now for 2 pop if we want (happiness penalty from first whip is now gone), but we might want to wait until Moscow grows back to size six, due in a couple of turns. Will be the call of whoever plays next.

4) Whipped for a monument in St. Pete's and chopped two forests for the Mids, Worker is now currently working on a mine. Mids are due in 20-some turns but we should be able to crank that down to the teens from working a mine, maybe less with a timely whip.

Here's the save! (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC0940_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn by turn notes, for the masochistic:

Turn 89: 1330 BC - inherited

Road hooked up, stone production now active. Moved warrior in St. Petersburg NW, as per the farmer's gambit. I plan to plant him on the nearby rice. Whipped warrior in Moscow (took production off of forest/grassland for settler).

Turn 90

Started Settler in Moscow. For now the warrior is moving toward St. Pete's, just to be safe.

Turn 91

Started chopping near St. Pete's.

Turn 93

Nothing

Turn 94

Nothing much. Spotted a settler of Mao's heading east from Guangzhou.

Turn 95

Chop #1 completed.

Turn 96

Stonehinge built in a far away land.

Turn 97

Nothing

Turn 98

Nothing

Turn 99

Sailing researched, I went ahead and started on AH.

Turn 100

Contact made with Hatty! They got Judaism in Memphis, on an island we couldn't even begin to see, off to the NE. Checking the trade window they had cows available to trade for clams. I went ahead and went for it. They must have copper hooked up as they have spearmen in Memphis. They have no contact with Mao or Alexander. Memphis is a jungle-heavy city with two mined hills that I can see, as well as pigs that are currently covered by jungle, and bananas. Judaism is spreading McDonalds.

Turn 101

Lord McCauley has completed his greatest work, The Most Cultured Civilizations of the World!. Hatty ranks in at #4, we are 5, Mao is 7, rest are unknown. Hatty converts to Judaism. Mao completes the Great Lighthouse (!) It's in Beijing. I'll be very very happy if we actually land the Mids. Crossing fingers...

Turn 102

St. Pete's hit size 4. I switched to a monument and whipped two pops down. Sparta's cultural borders popped a bit back. The fish are 80% in our control.

Turn 103

Settler complete in Moscow. Building a Galley. Overflow from the monument gave us 28 base hammers for a 76 hammer turn in St. Pete's.

Turn 104

Nothing



edited to add: oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Stonehenge was built in a far away land as well, not that that wasn't going to happen eventually. I went ahead and played the TS despite saying there were things we needed to determine, well, because the turnset would end before those decisions really needed to be made, and AH is a natural next tech, to cheapen the cost for Writing, and to reveal horses. I vote IW next, though.

As far as city placement, I favor a city 1N of the copper. That site gets us the copper and 3(!) gems. On top of that, it's still coastal. The obvious downside to this site is that is misses the fish, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. That site will also spread our culture outward from our island better. The borders will also touch Moscow's giving us early "free" cultural expansion.
Hmm. I'd be extremely hesitant to put the city over there without any food resource. 1N of the copper has a couple of squares that we haven't explored yet, and if we find seafood there, then definitely, go for it. But if not, then the city would be doomed to very slow growth for the whole game, and we'd be unable to work the copper without accepting a food surplus of 1. That to me is worth the third gem spot.

I'd say it'd definitely be worth a quick scout from the galley before we decide, though.

We are in OR now. That means we can build missionaries without monasteries. We can send a missionary to the new city to ensure quick religion spread, and thereby get our cultural expansion.
True enough, though if the Judiasm spread trend continues, we won't need to :D. Them rabbis are spreading the word. Judaism is the new McDonald's :)

I think we'd be better having Alex and Mao as trading partners and friends early. I'm sure there's somebody else close by we can whip up on, we just have to find them. :mischief:
Well, so far, our religion is finding people faster than we can :lol:. We may have to go find whoever founded Hinduism and :whipped:+:spear: us some gosh darn heathens :mischief:

You always have a vote in this game, Civicide. We may rib you for being the new guy, but we are all absolute equals here.
My style is naturally self-depricating, in case you haven't noticed :mischief:. I know I'm not nearly as experienced as many of you, and I will make some mistakes (believe it), but if something's 50/50 in my head, I won't pretend to have an opinion :)

Looking at the save, I think we should whip the galley when Moscow grows, and get that settler across the water ASAP.

As far as research, we should be looking to pick up IW to clear the jungle off the gems, and we should also be looking for mathematics very soon, so that we can build the HG in St Pete after the mids completes. IF we can pull that off, we'll have a monster city there, that will probably overwhelm Sparta with culture. We'll also have a great GE farm, which will lead to other goodness.

After Math, alphabet so we can trade with our good Jewish friends before they decide they don't like being Jewish anymore. From there, it's time to start building an army and navy, I think.

Also, I just noticed: Mao has writing already, meaning we can set up Open Borders with them. I think we should, if for no other reason than to allow us to set up trade routes with them for the :commerce:.

Alex and Hatty aren't quite there yet.

Hi all, seems it's my turn, since i think i'll post a save before Monday, just in time for have Sweetacshon back.
I got and opened the save.
I went back to BrianS' city map, that we previously discussed.**

I've never seen Oracle completed so soon, usually 1400BC is a safe date, nor GLH before 1000.
Let's hope pyramids will be "normal", so we'll probably managed on them.
to our partial consolation the AI which built the oracle can't have used it for an advanced tech.
The Hindu AI is probably isolated, then it's not spreading significantly.

Plans for my TS:
it's OK to whip the galley in Moscow?
** I think that the copper city can be placed where Brian suggested the pink city, unless the galley can reveal some seafood in the south sea.
After AH, it's OK go for archery? i hate this, but we need to protect our cities, or to fogbust (i fear barb axes)
if not, writing - alpha? or else?

i'll wait for your comments, then play late tonight or tomorrow.

I don't think we'll need archery, we have BW and we have copper... just get a worker over to it and let's build axes, instead.

I'd whip the galley, get the settler and a warrior over there, and start another worker (to go and mine the copper, so don't send the galley far away yet) in Moscow.

Research priorities should be Iron Working (to remove jungle), Mathematics (hanging gardens) and Alphabet (Trading with our friends while they're still friends).

Agreed, no need for archery at the time being. If we want to research anything before IW/Writing it would probably be Pottery, for granaries, because we probably want to cottage around Moscow, and to make Writing even cheaper, but I think we're fine if we just go AH > IW > Writing > Math.

I've also never seen the Oracle built that soon, not on Monarch. Craziness. My guess is that it got somebody Monarchy. The AI always seems to prioritize that.

And I agree that once we get our 3rd city up and running, hook up the copper, and finish the Mids, it's time to start building up an army and navy, and finding someone to beat up on.

Nice job guys. I agree with the suggestions to whip the galley and prioritize IW. We need IW to start mining the gems. I also agree with the thinking to keep the pink city where it i