Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Reserved for Team info posts (if we need any)

Hi all, a new adventure begins ...

I suppose you all saw my last post in our SGotM2 thread (edited few moments before this).

AlanH decided for 6 members/team, then he added Civicide ... welcome.

After the formal activities (subscriptions, team rules, member knowledge)
I hope we'll start to discuss about the game, i'd like to begin to play the very first day.

Welcome to you, Civicide! Please tell us a bit about yourself.

This info is mostly for Civicide, since the rest of you already know what a pain I am :mischief:; I'm American, but I spend most of my time in China, so I'm basically GMT +8. I'm a vanilla monarch player, which means I'm probably a prince warlords player.

I'm currently at home with family for the thanksgiving holiday, and will return to China next week. I'll keep up with the discussion as much as possible (I'm not spending a lot of time at the computer) but would prefer to play late in the turn order, so I have time to get settled in after I get back "home".

As far as I'm concerned, the order just like AlanH has it in the maintenance thread works fine for me.

Hey guys,

This looks like an interesting game -- 17 other civs, archipelago, no city razing, diplo/space victory only, PA enabled and aggressive AI. Can't say I've done this before.

Because this is so unusual, I've created a test game. This save was made before any moves, and the map can be regenerated if you want to try different map layouts. I made no attempt to match our starting position in the SGOTM as I think it's more important feeling comfortable with these unusual settings.

143048

EDIT: This is giong to be a test of our systems. 17 civs really slows things downs by 1000 AD

Hi everyone, and welcome, Civicide.

Thanks for the save, Brian, I'll have a look tomorrow (although, the Ashes are on, so I can't promise anything ;)). I rarely play archipelago, never 17 AIs, and space and diplo victories are usually my last ditch efforts, so this will be yet another learning experience for me. I'm guessing we'll need to be fairly strong in research, and I have always loved GL/ Collosus on archipelagos.

As always, the first questions are:
1. Where to settle? In place looks solid. Move the scout to the hill 1N or the hill 1N2E?
2. Techs? What are Peter's strengths - esp in W2.08? Do we want to grab a religion, get the Oracle, etc? Perhaps we wont meet many civs early (hmm 17 AI:crazyeye: ) so can we postpone alphabet and miitary techs? Well, I might have more idea after playing the test.

Hi all. Glad to see you in SGOTM 3.

I say we should play BrainS s test game individually before starting this one. Hopefully i ll my short report about my experience before we start.

Well, I just played a bit of this map after a couple of regens, and fouind myself miserably behind in tech at 145BC, and with no wonders. We're definitely going to have our work cut out for us.

Mind you, my little slice of heaven certainly wasn't a great starting spot, covered with jungle and without many resources. I spent many years avoiding growth in Moscow due to a lack of happiness, although my island is covered with dye that I'll be able to get to later.

I just popped alphabet and may be able to get close to tech parity, but Hatty is making a run and I haven't met everybody yet, so we'll see. For sure we're going to have to play very carefully.

It's a diplo/space victory we want, but I think we're going to have to whip out the old pointy stick early and often to keep the competition down.

I wished to post this after Civicide confirm, but i've sent him an e-mail after the PM you all received, then i go:

I DL Brian's test game, and play few turns, editing some tile to better fit with the official starting SS.
if you're interested, it's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Brian_BC-4001.CivWarlordsSave

About the system: i didn't noticed it's slow, but probably it can suffer when we'll know more map and meet some civ.

Early game decisions (my opinions):
- settle in place (pity to loose 1 FP, but...)
- our first research should be Fishing, probably followed by Wheel>Pottery or BW (most for whipping, but of course to see if there's some copper around).
- Moscow will never be a powerhouse, but a settler/worker farm in the early game and a GP farm later.

the map type is Archi/Archi, with no GH in our island (Gyathaar answered to this question).
probably an early religion is not possible (and not interesting), with all the spiritual civs around.
We can start to produce a warrior, working the FP, then switch to a WB ASA we'll learn fishing, continue to work the FP, and when at size 2 work forested Spices and a forest.

Of course much will depend from what we'll scout in the official map:
- If we'll have a very close neighbour we'll can consider a worker stealing, and/or to build a settler after the first WB.
- If not, we can build a 2nd WB, then a settler or a worker to cottage the FP and to road around.
- I suggest to move the scout in the hill E/NE

2 more attachments:
a SS with the autolog settings that i find useful.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

the autolog for the few turns i've play: those htm are well readable, and easily editable with MS Front Page. http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/51166/autolog.zip

Game strategy:
Laurels are for diplo or SR
... i'm pretty good in the last one, a disaster at diplo ... but there's a 2nd way to diplo:
to own over the 60% of population, avoid domination limit, then vote for ourselves :evil: .

About SR:
I've play a test game, been alone in a 6 cities island, with optimal city placement and good resources.
I built all the early wonders, but ToA.
At a certain point i splitted, and:
1st split: 6 cities, not a single war, very weak military ... i was considered weak by the AIs, then almost all DoW me, despite my ability to build few but powerful units and a powerful navy.
no more than annoying, i razed some cities, kept one and launched in 1926.
2nd split: i made good use of my cossacks (against longbows), conquering 2 isolated civs and keeping all their cities, in a pretty good land (at least with lots of cottages/towns).
an AI DoW me anyway, followed by a 2nd (probably bribed from the 1st), just to loose 2 cities (one razed) to my tanks, GS and marines, not to mention their frigates, sunken by destroyers and battleships.
i was the last in power, but probably they learnt the lesson: launched in 1855, and with less fear to be invaded.
Conclusion: if you got a good economy, growth IS power.

About Peter's traits:
Expansive can perhaps help in the early game, but we'll have to focus on the philosophical thrait, lots of GPersons can be popped.
I hope we'll got stone, pyramids would be precious (better if built by some neighbour :evil: ).
We can try also an MC or CoL slingshot with Oracle, we'll see.

Waiting for your comments.
Sweetacshon: i had to search wikipedia about Ashes (here is just the first day of Lent, but probably is better translate with Cinders?) ... so you're a cricket fan?

Our aim should be make PA with tech leader if we are going to go for space victory.

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?

@Blumbmuz
You havent made any PA s in your test game right?
No, i didn't. I was far away the tech leader, i just wished to try the difference between a small, peaceful kingdom and the biggest and most advanced empire, ready to fight anything, given the same conditions until the middle ages (until education).

Another thought:
the laurels are for the fastest finish, not separate for SR/diplo.
usually (probably always) a SR takes longer than a diplo, especially if a diplo is sure, having all the votes needed; in case of a diplo, a PA will surely help, but don't forget it will be enabled with Communism, then after SM, very late in the game.

Then, let's sharpen our swords and axes.

Hello everyone! Good to be here! I'd have confirmed sooner but was out of pocket over Thanksgiving break (I see we have a very international team, so forgive my observances of Yank holidays!). I'm here now, though, and should remain in pocket for some time.

A bit of info about me. I'm American, currently living in Texas, Central Time Zone (GMT -6). I work full time, and occasionally my hours might turn out to be inconvenient, but I should be able to find the time to play some turns on just about any given day, provided I'm not on vacation or some such thing (as I may very well be over Christmas, but apart from that, I should be available).

This is my first SGOTM, my first SG at all, so it'll probably take a bit of practice to get comfortable with the submission system, so please bear with me.

As for Civ skills, well, I suppose that will just have to wait and see :lol: ... most of the time I play on Prince (Warlords 2.08), where I can usually pull off a victory if I'm paying close enough attention to what's going on. (I have a 2 computer setup and am an avid online poker player, and have a bad habit of playing poker on one comp and Civ on the other - not good for either hobby, truth be told, and I promise to avoid those impulses when playing in a SGOTM). I'm generally more comfortable as a builder than as a warmonger (usually gravitating to cultural or SR victories) but will do my best to adapt to whatever style of play the group needs.

Thanks again for having me and I'm looking forward to pushing Mighty Mother Russia to an obscene point total!

Yep, I'm a cricket fan, and the Ashes are the pinnicle.. there's nothing better than grinding the Poms into the dirt in sports they invented :lol:

You are a poker player, Civicide? I dabble a bit too, and you are so correct about keeping your mind on the job. There have been a couple of times I have had a bad streak of cards, gotten bored and started something else, only to realise that I'm folding AK or getting too excited all-in style about my 77. :crazyeye: And don't worry about the uploads, the page is structred really well, you won't have troubles. Just remember to "finish" the turn (but don't press enter, of course) before you save, and try not to leave any units on goto orders.

Right - to the game. I'd like to voice my opinion that getting a religion IS an option. I played the start of Brians save around 7-8 times (don't remember, it was late) and got either Bhuddism or Hinduism EVERY time. You just have to delay the worker and build a warrior instead, work a fp 'til pop, then fp and coast, and we're a shoe in. Having the religion, imho, outweighs the absence of the worker in the first 15-20 turns, through happiness, free culture, and of course, money. Anyway, try it yourselves: play the first 100 turns or so, and tell me if you can't nab a religion, the wonder of your choice, and spit a worker and settler out?? (most Civs seem to build a wonder around this time)

The game I played on with after convincing myself that the religion was no fluke, was only to about 1000AD, where it did start bogging down, this would be mainly due to my half gig of mem, but I'm on a laptop, so I'll just have to streamline.

Insights:

These maps always seem a bit production poor, so a judicious use of the whip is in order, and I think the capital will excel here. I farmed fps, and didn't cottage overly much at all. It is easier and quicker to get commerce from the sea. Thru the religious techs I built the Oracle, grabbed MC and then built the Collosus. The Oracle soon gave me a GP, and in went the shrine. I was always researching at 100%, and if I needed some cash, I put it on 90% :cool: GLH is also good, lasts a bit longer, but is less powerful, imo.

A worker doesn't have much to do at the start, no hills, no resources to improve, so we really needn't build one 'til BW... maybe even settler before worker. After this we'll need galleys, or perhaps triremes are better for exploration, and writing/ alphabet. Finding as many civs as possible is a must, espcly with a religion. From then on, it's settle, explore, spread religion, take what you don't already have, and find a few good trading partners. The tech rate is fierce with this many civs, and also wars escalate quickly.

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

Welcome Civicide! I hope you enjoy your first foray into SG.

Great discussion going here. I'm seeing some themes start to emerge. Here's my experience:

Being the Technology leader is a challenge-- I've played several test games on different maps through the middle ages. In my first games, I was left in the tech dust. With so many civs teching and trading at Monarch level, things move fast. It's easy to have and lose a tech lead. I found most success through getting Colossus and the Great Library and being very aggressive with trading. If I didn't trade quickly after getting a new tech, it quickly lost its value. I also started basing more tech choices what I could use for trade instead of what I needed. With 17 civs, I could often trade the same tech to a lot of civs if no one else had it. Blubmuz, it sounds like you were successful in gaining a tech lead. What worked for you?

The whip is your friend says Sweetachson, and I agree -- this is a food rich/hammer poor environment. Unfortunately, work boats are expensive in the early game but the whipping payoff is large. At least the city still grows while building them.

Enemy selection--with so many civs, things get crowded quickly. I think you just need to look at your 2 closest civs and pick the one you hate the most. For me, that's usually Montezuma...backstabbing SOB. If anyone's going to backstab, I want it to be me!

Wonder selection--I never went for the Oracle. Instead I tried to get these three: Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. I like to put HG in a decent production city that will also have an early forge and where an engineer specialist makes sense. It's nice to have a steady, if occasional, supply of Great Engineers--they lightbulb some nice techs and come in handy to rush a wonder. I consider any additional wonders gravy. I'm not so quick to go for Oracle on Monarch because it's too easy to miss and I don't like to give up the early opportunity to expand and build an army.

Interesting comment Sweetacshon about going for a religion. In my most successful game, I never got a religion and never converted to one. I'd gladly accept new religions for the opportunity to build monasteries and temples, but by not converting I think I kept more trading partners. Have I mentioned that there are 17 civs to trade with?

Sweetacshon put the first plan on the table:

So, my plan is settle in place - warrior(s) til workboat
mysticism > (a religion medi or poly) > fishing > BW > Priesthood (oracle) > worker tech or two > writing > alphabet with MC from the oracle somewhere in there. I'm not sure we'd have the time for CS.

I'm with you about settling in place and warrior(s) til workboat. On techs, I'd probably go for fishing>BW>Sailing>Writing, but then i'm not so sure about the religion thing. What if we chose the wrong god and are smited for our insolence? Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

Sorry, shouldn't message while drinking...

No problems.. if there's anything I don't understand, I'll get drunk and try again.

Religion. you are right, there are 17 civs, so some will get a little annoyed, but trading can overcome this. I think if we can spread it around enough, we'll be fine. It is yet another CiV gamble like wonders or wars.

Welcome Civicide, then we got 2 texans, although 1 is half chinese (for his location, of course).
About the game:
tech leadership wasn't referrred to this game, but to another game (complete different settings) i've play as Peter, to test other choices (see my #9).

I agree with Sweetacshon plan, that is not much different from the one i used in my test (using Brian's map - see again #9)

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.
if we don't wanna risk a very early religion, we'll can use Oracle for CoL, as i did in the test.
A CS slingshot is not realistic with this map and with math required in 2.08.
The GLH would be great, but it's expensive also with stone, better the GL and the colossus, especially if we manage the MC slingshot.
I think we can convert to our religion, with 18 civs tech trading is not a problem.
I suggest to explore with a workboat, to be built some turn before writing (for open borders).
Please take a look at my autolog in the zip file.

Hot damn! Another Texan in our ranks! When I'm not traversing the inner reaches of darkest Asia, I also call Texas my home, Civicide. Specifically, the DFW area. Where are you located?

Regarding SGs, you may want to have a look at our previous threads to get a feel for the flow of the games. We go on a 24/48 rotation, meaning that the next person in line has 24 hours after the save goes up to post a "got it" message, and 48 hours to play. We try to coordinate strategies as much as possible given that this is a competition game, but ultimately, in-game decisions belong to the player, if they're comfortable making them. Nobody will squawk if you come to a point where you reach a critical moment and want to post the game up and discuss what's next with the team.

Maybe the most important thing for me to tell you right now is that points don't matter, not one bit. The object of this game is to achieve the fastest victory in the given conditions, and it doesn't matter if we have 1 point or 10,000. In fact, we damn near ruined ourselves in the final push to victory in SGOTM2, by design.

I haven't tried the religious route, but it may well be a viable option.

I don't think we'll have time to wait for a launch, so diplomatic is the way to go. We should try to gain as many vassals and PAs as possible, because they are guaranteed votes. Remember that we'll have to watch the dom limits closely during our conquests. As many puppet states as we can get is better for us. If we're going to gain vassals, it behooves us to keep them relatively healthy, so they can do decent research for us.

If we can get the early religion reliably, That would be wonderful. I think we should go for oracle, for sure.

Warrior>Workboat is the only logical build to start, IMO.

a very early religion (buddha or hindu) can be grabbed researching fishing first? if so, great, and we can build and use the Oracle for MC.

I really doubt we can get a very early religion with fishing first. They will both go very quickly. Judaism might be possible with fishing, but that diverges from the oracle route. Confusionism from the oracle is a possibility, but this means we'll have to get MC by hand, jeopardising the Collosus.

I think we should make a decision before playing:
1. Early religion - we need these techs for oracle anyway
2. Fishing first, then oracle techs - will aid early expansion, could use oracle for confusionism or MC... higher chance of missing a religion
3. A different early wonder, say Pyramids, ie masonary and a beeline to alphabet thru worker techs.

I am all for the early religion, but there are other ways of course: conquering a holy city, grabbing Tao, Christianity, or Islam, or even never converting, which would certainly keep some AIs happier. One thing to think of is our expansionist trait, ie extra health... not the greatest, but with a dedication to finding extra happiues, we can make BIG cities.

One other thing, HOF 2.08.02 is out, and we'll require that.

I propose this:
if we are not too close to another civ, and then we can delay the 1st settler, we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).
We can begin research Myst, while building a warrior and if we scout another civ close, switch to fishing (or complete then switch, it's the cheapest tech).
As you say, we need anyway to follow the religious path for Oracle, and 3 or for turns of delay fishing are not so important.
I suppose thet in this game the first scout move doesn't need to be discussed, then we'll can post something after 5 or 6 turns.

We all agree to settle in place?
i vote YES.
who will be charged of the first TS?

btw ... thanks Sweetsacshon for the support in the maintenance thread.
it seems some people is a bit Taliban (just a bit, no offense :mischief: ).

we can go for Hindu (usually AI go for Buddha).

This is no longer the case in Warlords 2.08. The AI now prioritizes Polytheism (maybe for TOA?). I agree if we go for fishing first, we will likely miss a religion. So if we want a religion, we should go for it out of the gates, particularly with so many civs.

Ah, good point on the point total not mattering. I will revise my statement, then, to say that I look forward to helping push Mighty Mother Russia to an obscenely early Space Shuttle launch or Declaration as King of Everything!

While I currently live in Texas, I've only been there for a couple of years and have a hard time truly calling it "home". However, I'm not far at all from the DFW area, just a couple of hours NE in Paris, near the Oklahoma border.

As for the game:

Settling in place ... I vote a tentative yes, depending on what our scout finds on Turn 0. We should move the scout 1SE, which will reveal a wide range of sea tiles. Am I correct that the primary advantage to settling in place is so that we get the clam that is 2W 1S of the settler? If we find something like two sea resources over to the East that would otherwise be wasted, we might want to consider a move 2E before settling. This puts us one turn behind at the start, and wounds our chances of founding an early religion, but could potentially make Moscow a more productive GP farm as the game progresses. Moscow, settled in place, will be a commerce city early but might be able to run as many as 6 specialists in the middle game (pre-Bio). That's a nice GP farm, particularly with a Philosophical leader.

Presuming we found in place, I'm about 60/40 in favor of going for an early religion. If we do so, right now I think we should go for Polytheism right away, and not try to mess around with Fishing first. In Brian's test game I was able to grab Hinduism 2/4 times when I went for Fishing first, Buddhism 0/4 times. Fishing first gets us the first Work Boat quicker (and thus, the first worker and settler quicker) and makes early whipping very productive, but if you miss out on the religion you've just wasted a ton of research turns that could have gone to BW instead.

Once I get home (I'm at work right now) I'll run a quick calculation to verify how quickly we can get the early religions with our starting position with and without fishing first. That could give us a more clear idea as to how big a risk a fishing-first start would constitute.

I agree that we need to come up with a preferred long-term plan but would emphasize that we need to keep our options open as we reveal more and more about the map. Decisions like whether to go for Oracle vs. Pyramids vs. whatever else may be determined by what resources we have available. With a map this crowded, I'm sure that our only way to ensure a quick victory will involve breaking out the pointy stick early and often, but I would hesitate to commit to a specific plan out of the gate before I know the resources we have on our island.

Okay, after a little testing, I have determined that we should probably let the AI go for Buddhism and Hinduism, and worry about religion later, if at all. I just played about 20 test games (on Brian's, where the starting spot vis a vie early commerce is remarkably similar to our opening spot for the SGOTM), and have determined the following data:

Going Mysticism first, the earliest we can research Meditation is turn 23, and the earliest we can research Polytheism is turn 26. I'm pretty confident of these numbers, since the optimal path is quite easy - work the Flood Plain until we're Size 2, then add in a 2F 1C tile (the spices, in our case), where we get to our religion tech roundabout the same time we reach size 3. Variables in research like running into another civ that has Mysticism won't affect our research enough to squeeze out another turn.

Going fishing first puts us in a better growth spot when we reach the first tech, since we're well on our way to our first FB, but trying multiple methods of tile management I was never able to get Meditation earlier than turn 28, Polytheism earlier than turn 31.

The AI, in contrast, was consistently founding the first two religions in the early-to-mid 20's, with one instance of me getting lucking and the AI completely missing Hinduism unti I researched it on turn 31. Starting without Mysticism is just too big of a handicap. We might be able to eke out Judaism, but that's quite a bit of early research that we don't want to waste, IMHO, on something that's still a long ways from a sure thing.

I vote Fishing first with a Warrior -> WB build, BW early and cracking the early whip. We can steal a religion, pop CoL with the Oracle, or grab Taoism late if we want. Going no religion is also a perfectly viable option with all these potential trading partners. The beneift of religion is happiness and gold. We can likely get the happiness by aggressively trading for luxury resources, and get the money via trades or through breaking out the pointy sticks early. Peter is not a religious powerhouse - let's play to his strengths, not try to force our strengths upon him.

I want to qualify my statement about AIs prefering Poly in Warlords 2.08. In my brief experience with 2.08, that has been something I've noticed, and I've seen others report this on the forums here. However, last night I rolled a new test start using the new version of HOF. I tried a number of starts and the AI always took Med first. I was never able to get Buddhism, but I was able to consistently get Poly. Go figure -- maybe it's because the AIs are all from vanilla CIV?

I wasn't thrilled with going for the early religion. Without being able to explore much, there's nothing to do for the first 30 turns but hit enter. It made me itchy to explore and expand. Civicide, I agree that this strategy doesn't play to Peter's strengths and vote for the tech/build order you suggested.

Here's the new practice game under the new HOF mod in case anyone wants to try it: 143327

I want to qualify my statement about AIs prefering Poly in Warlords 2.08. In my brief experience with 2.08, that has been something I've noticed, and I've seen others report this on the forums here. However, last night I rolled a new test start using the new version of HOF. I tried a number of starts and the AI always took Med first. I was never able to get Buddhism, but I was able to consistently get Poly. Go figure -- maybe it's because the AIs are all from vanilla CIV?

I also had a much easier time getting Hinduism than Buddhism - I think I successfully nabbed Buddhism once, and that was a fluke where Hinduism was founded on something like turn 19 (way before we can get it) and I grabbed Buddhism on turn 23.

The AIs in the test game, at least, seemed to prefer Buddhism over Hinduism on the whole, but not to the point where they were ignoring Polytheism completely, definitely not the point where our grabbing Hinduism is really that likely. I'd estimate our shot at getting Hinduism at 50/50, maybe a little lower, if we go Mysticism first, and even that hurts, since it means two techs before Fishing.

About the only thing that might sway me is if we were to pop Mysticism from a goodie hut on turn 3 or something :)

There are no GHs, unfortunately, in our vicinity in this game... that's the map design.

So, I think I've said all I can for religion, we'll just take the vote and go from there. Oh, no, there is one more thing ;) Getting an early religion and prophet wonder with the philosophical trait will yield GProphets and hence a shrine very quickly. That's about all I've got.

You weren't wrong about hindu in 2.08 Brian, but the new mod is not influencing this, it has only some minor fixes (next one will have a good italian translation, too, thanks to your teammate).
Anyway the majority of the AI go for Buddha, probably 'cause it's faster.

I think a very early religion is too risky, better go for fishing, and try to build the Oracle (not in Moscow), use it for CoL, pop a GP and use him for the Shrine.

Then:
- build queue: warrior - WB
- research: fishing - myst?
- scout: as Civicide suggests, probably nw/e could be good
- who's first? i was in SG2, not again please.
15 turns is OK, or some more for this first TS? (most of the activity is hit enter).

edit: sorry, mistake: Civicide suggests SE, but if we discover another sea food nothing changes ... the only way to hook the 2nd clam is settle in place.
could be better hill e/ne?

edit 1, after Brian #27:
right, but don't forget that many leaders have change their traits
ahh and in diplo screen KK has now the face of Qin Shi Huang, and viceversa (a stupid change, IMO).

I agree that the HOF mod is not influencing religious preferences; I think it's probably governed by the individual AI programming. Since we're using the civs from the original vanilla game in this SGOTM, I'm guessing that they will still prefer Buddhism over Hinduism.

think a very early religion is too risky, better go for fishing, and try to build the Oracle (not in Moscow), use it for CoL, pop a GP and use him for the Shrine.

No, the only risk is fishing first, and then religion, at this level. OK, so it's at least 3-1, so I concede not beelining early religion. so its fishing first.

15 turns is OK, or some more for this first TS? (most of the activity is hit enter).

15 turn only, I think we should keep discussion going.

Red alert!!!

saves are ready: who post a SS with scout on hill e/ne??

don't forget to save, then restart from there :crazyeye: .

Ask, and ye shall receive. Let the discussion begin!

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6627/civ4screenshot0000op8.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000op8.jpg)

I can't upload a save because the system still sees it as the starting position. Whoever starts, make sure you make this scout move first.

There's stone there. I think we have two excellent city sites here. First guy needs to settle in place to get the other clam that's just offscreen to the W. Then we'll want to get a settler out ASAP. Second city site is right on the hill where the scout is standing.

Based on the jungle here, I'd say we were near the tropics on this globe.

EDIT: Here's my save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143418&stc=1&d=1164987736) after this move.

I agree with Merum--settle in place and get another settler out quick to settle on the hill so that we have some decent production.

Stone!! Do I smell pyramids? How feasible is it to get both Oracle and Pyramids on Monarch, anyway? Which is the priority?

In any case, agreed with all others on our overall plan. Settle in place, second settler ASAP on the hill where the scout is. Our two immediate city spots should make for a nice duality of early commerce and early production.

Seen SS and your comments.
No further discussion needed (just let's wait the rest of the team)

Completely agreed and ... the smell of pyramids has to be strong, i can feel it from here.

Then Fishing - Masonry - and writing through the religious path? (myst-poly-priest-wri)

I propose: i was the new one in SG2, consequentially,
the first TS has to go to one of our new members ... pick one ;) .

edit:
as Sweetacshon said, 15 turns, please.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

New man up! Come on, Civicide, this can be your audition. ;)

What's your plan for the first 20? You're our guy.

1. Ask to be skipped, or play your turns on time. Please don't just go missing in action.
2. Do not automate workers without first discussing with the team.
3. Do not order workers to make a terrain improvement over a forest or jungle, Clear the trees first i disagree with this, often a jungle re-grows if you don't build improvements.
4. Do not use city governors without first discussing with the team or clearly noting in your turn log.
5. If you change production in a city make sure you inform the team and leave any part-completed items on the build queue so all hammers invested can be seen.

6. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.
7. Finish all your turns and upload the game saved at the END of the last turn.
8. When it is your turn to play, it is normal to pick the game up within 24 hours of the new save being made available, and to post a new save within 48 hours of that (so 72 hours in total). If you cannot meet the deadline then your team captain may grant you an extension or skip you at his discretion.
9. Only post a "got it" message once you have downloaded the save and actually opened it in the game. It is not unusual for something to happen that prevents the save being opened.
10. Post a turnlog which describes your set of turns. Provide enough information, not only on what you did, but what your intent was for the next few turns. "Where is that galley going?" and "Oops that palace build was actually a pre-build" are not uncommon comments in the threads.

11. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
12. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.
13. The following http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=126455&d=1147452086 are preferred except Wait at End of Turn which is mandatory.
14. Above all have fun.

The above is based on the guidance from the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread and copied here so it can be amended to our own needs. Please note that only the guidance is copied here, for the mandatory rules and shortcuts to the submissions page for uploading and the results page for downloading follow these links
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/1st_visit.php#rules

Copied from Perugia's post in our SGotM2 thread.

Time rules: (from above 8 and 9)
A) post an "I got it" in 24 hours after the last save is uploaded, or post a request to be skipped or swapped (possibly before your turn);
B) if something has to be decided, post your opinions and doubts, possibly with a deadline for the other members comments;
C) play and submit within 48 hours after your "got it" or after the deadline for team comments.
D) normally we'll play 15 turns each, and save in the middle of the last one, usually called "inherited turn", by the next player, that will start to count from the following one.

Turnlog:
Now that we play with HOF, life is easier; the option I showed at page 1 is better readable at home, but if you choose .txt with Forum tags, it can be ealsily copied and pasted in your end-turn post, and edited with your comments.
We can try and see what works better.

for any comment on my writing style, please see number 11, other comments welcome.

If recall correctly we used checking in order to form player turns.

But as a tradition new player should be first so here is my proposed turn order(used checkin in order after Civicide)

Civicide
Merum
Blumbmuz
BrainS
Sweetchon
Doom Train

As for the game I agree to settle in place.

:lol: If you're having the new guy go first because that's where I can do the least amount of damage, I assure you that I can and will find a way to screw something up! But 15 turns is not so bad, so hopefully the good players here can find something worthwhile in the rubble that I'm sure to leave :)

I have the save, but am at work at the moment (I put the save on a flash drive). I should get home at around 2300 my time (0500 GMT) and should rip through these turns before exercising my plan for world domination in GOTM13 :). I'll try to upload my result before I go to bed.

A tradition (started last SG ;) :p )
Don't worry, we are good people (i suppose)
Are we agreed about the tech path???

Nice to have another GotM player, it seems we are the only 2 (if i'm not wrong).

Edit after Civicide #39
too good, civ, too good.
you seem a good acquisition for our team.

Looking at the posts made in the meantime, the above post should NOT be treated as an official "Got it" since I have NOT yet opened the save.

As for my plan, I'll work the FP and start a Warrior until we hit Fishing at Turn 8 (should coincide with cult. borders expansion), where I'll switch the queue right to a FB and begin researching masonry. I'll continue with the FP until Size 2, where I'll work a grassland/forest until the FB pops. FB should come around the same time as Size 3, which will probably take me past 15 turns. In this time it's likely I'll scout as best I can, and try not to get our scout eaten by any wild animals. Sound about right? :)

Edit after BLubmuz's edit in #38:

too good, civ, too good.
you seem a good acquisition for our team.
Just wait, just wait. You'll be cursing my name, I promise :)

Personally, I kind of prefer trying to get a religion early, but I know I am in the minority there. Having the holy city in your capital very early in the game is a huge boost to gold, which means more beakers early on. This is a huge advantage.

I understand I'm in the minority, so I'm not going to squawk about it too much.

Civicide, your plan looks OK to me. I think you should play 20 turns, though, or until you get to a major event that requires discussion, whichever comes first. There's really not much to do this early but hit enter, anyway. Might as well get the slogging out of the way.

And if we end up cursing your name, it just means you blended right in. We're happy to have you. We picked up Blubby and Sweetacshon on the last game, and they worked out OK, I think. ;)

OK, this is the official GOT IT! Playing right now. :love: my 2 computer setup. It may come in handy in future situations where I'm playing and need to post a screenie for immediate feedback (I can take a screenie and upload it from my other computer within seconds without ever having to exit out of Civ)

For the record, I'm traveling, and won't be able to play second, as suggested earlier. Somebody else needs to take it after civicide.

Okay, turnset completed.

Highlights:

A bonus spice that we didn't see was in Moscow's fat cross, 2E

Buddhism founded in ADL, turn 12/13. Good thing we didn't try for it!

Our scout isn't eaten yet, but it likely will be next turn :(. Sorry guys. It's standing on jungle and is about to be eaten by a bear that just popped.

The island shape is basically a "C", so far, with the open end to the south, and while it appears I may be close to the edge of it, it may also snake off to one of the other "islands" that we can see over the water.

Things are VERY crowded.

I have uncovered no fewer than 6 gems so far on the island, along with two rice patties and one cow, in addition to some sea resources and the stone we already knew about. So far we could potentially have access to spices, clams, fish, stone, gems, rice, and cows.

The island is EXTREMELY hammer-poor, as we predicted. However, in addition to being rich in food, there should be a very nice amount of natural commerce available from the Gems, and since they're all but one on straight-up grassland, we won't have to sacrifice any food to work them.

Turn by turn notes.

Turn 1

Settle in place. Things of note right away: The square 2E of Moscow, previously in the fog, is actually a second clump of spices. Islands to the SW and NW appear to be distinct from our own, maybe distinct from each other. This is gonna be CROWDED.

Scout N, then NE, onto the jungle-covered hill. No sea tiles of note, but I did uncover a jungled-over grassland/rice, just out of the fat cross of our proposed second city.

Turn 2

Moved the scout onto the rice, uncovering more jungle.

Turn 3

Moved the scout SW, uncovering gems due W.

Turn 4

Scout onto the gems to reveal sea square, and I find some fish. Could be a very nice potential 3rd city spot developing, but it won't be feasible until post Iron Working and a lot of jungle-chopping, and might have essentially 0 possible production - food-heavy, hammer-light map indeed!

Turn 5

Scout NE, nothing new revealed

Turn 6

Scout NW, onto what could possibly be a nice city spot. Cows uncovered due N, making the spot that much nicer, and at least giving it a hint of potential production. Also seeing more gems on the shoreline over the water.

Turn 7

Scout NE, then NW. More gems revealed. More jungle. My Civicide senses are seeing a pattern develop here...

Turn 8

Fishing, baby, Fishing! Working on Masonry now. Cultural borders expand, revealing yet another island in spitting distance to the SE. We need to hire some units that can swim! Not much more revealed about the islands to the SW and NW except that they do appear to be separate. Swapped production to Work Boat.

Scout moves N, then NW onto a plains hill, one of the few. More fish revealed, these only in range if we settle directly onto gems (probably in range of another island, too, knowing this map!)

Turn 9

Scout SW, onto jungle. Looks like our island may be coming to an end. Yeah, this game is gonna be INTERESTING.

Turn 10

Our island is NOT coming to an end ... it's forming a big "C" with the island to the NW! Vewwy intewesting! Scout SW into still more gems.

Turn 11

Moscow has grown to size 2. Working grassland/forest in addition to the FP. Scout SW reveals clams and rice on a chokepoint.

Turn 12

Scout SW onto the rice. Not much of note.

Turn 13

Buddhism founded in ADL. Thank @$#% we didn't try for it!!!!! Scout W, then SW, revealing ... you guessed it ... MORE GEMS! And another island, to the SW.

Turn 14

Scout E, revealing nothing we haven't seen.

Turn 15

Uh oh. I told you I would screw something up! The scout moves SE, revealing EVEN MORE GEMS, to the E, but more pertinently, a pack of wild brown bears stands ready to eat our scout. They will attack prior to Turn 16, and we will be down significantly, 3.0-2.5. Not looking good... but it looks like most of the island is scouted out, although I already thought that once, and was wrong! An archipelago map this crowded could theoretically wind up being one enormous snaky continent ... that would be a hell of a twist.

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC3550_01.CivWarlordsSave). I think. Let me know if you have any trouble.

Some screenies in a post to follow immediately.

edit to add roster:

Blumbmuz <<<<< You're up!
BrainS <<<<< On deck (tentative, depending on where we decide to insert Merum)
Sweetchon
Doom Train
Civicide <<<<< COMPLETE
Merum <<<<< Away, travelling, unavailable for this TS (maybe worked into rotation later?)

Some screenies:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg
Our new, full fat cross.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg
A clean overview of the island so far

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg
The northern portion of the island

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg
The portion of the island around our tentative second city location

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg
The western portion of the island

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/gdshaffe/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg
Our poor, soon-to-be-eaten scout :(

edited to put the screenies in spoiler tags, so that they're less obnoxious. Still learning!

Got and opened the save.
See my discussion with Gyathaar in the sign-up thread (268 to 271).

Then, we are isolated in a small island ... very close to the test game i was talkin' about in the first page, but we are definitely hammer poor ... curious to see the strategic resources.
No marble in sight, bad.
We'll can focus on Peter's philosophical trait with all that food around.

Civicide played 15 turns, then i'll pick Merum's suggestion for 20 (activities: hit enter 20 times, bury the scout and move the work boat).

We are isolated, but close to other land, we'll see if other islands or some continent, then our 3rd or 4th WB can be built for exploration.

I'll post some strategy after my TS, probably i'll complete it before night.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

Not a big duty, then already played.

IT: MM to speed up the WB
t1: with my usual lu... ehm ability, the bear decided to go south, giving mercy (don't know the right word) to our scout ...

Masonry learned in 3370
WB finished in 3310, MM to work clam
Moscow s.3 in 3160
warrior completed in 3130, started 2nd WB
Mysticism learned in 3100, started Poly (hindu not yet founded)
Scout to fogbust near Moscow
saved in 2980, turn 34 to complete ... next player (BrianS?) can go to 50th turn
the save is in the official page and here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC2980_01.CivWarlordsSave

not a single tile further revealed, thanks to that damn bear, then Civicide's SS are all we know.

comments:
The WB will complete 1 t before s.4, then i propose to switch a warrior and at s.4 a settler:
working FP, forrested spices and the 2 clams give us 6 gold and a good settler production.
then i'll finish the warrior and a worker (remember we got an hammer bonus for this)

We'll probably miss Hindu, but can go for Mono (judaism) and switch to OR.
not only pyramids, but the GLH should be considered, as we'll have ALL coastal cities.
I hate to loose that ph, but settle there is the only way to have the fish in the FC, and to quickly hook stone ... SH can be considered, too.

Roster:
BrianS (up)
Doom Train (on deck)
Merum (if he's still traveling swap with next)
Sweetacshon
Blubmuz (rest)

I have the save. Here is a proposal for city sites.

143518

Polytheism is currently due in 12. Moscow will grow in 8 and workboat will complete in 7.

There are some micromanagement options. If we want to gamble for Hinduism, we can work the clams instead of the forest/grassland. Then Poly is due in 10, Moscow will still grow in 8, but workboat will not complete for 9 turns. Alternatively, we can work the floodplain, in which case Poly is due in 11, Moscow grows in 6 and workboat is due in 9 (although workboat and poly will complete a turn or two earlier after new citizen is added depending on what she works).

I wasn't in favor of going for a religion, but since we're committed to poly, I think we should try our best to get it first.

Here are the techs I think we need to prioritize: BronzeWorking, Agri, Ironworking, Animal Husbandry, Masonry. Our quickest path to wealth is to mine the gems, and for that we need iron working.

I propose BW after Poly because it gets us slavery and the ability to chop.

We also need to stick in writing/alphabet to start trading, but the question is when. I'm surprised we haven't met any neighbors. I expect them to start appearing in my set.

Proposed builds: settler, warrior, worker

I'll play sometime today but will wait a couple hours to see if I get any feedback to the above.

Help - question:
how do you manage to post a link showing not the link coordinates, but a different word? (e.g. as Merum did in his 30) ???

It's not hard :). You make the following, replacing all curly-brackets "{}" with square brackets "[]".

The text I've bolded is the link coordinates, and the text I've italicized is what actually shows up in the post.

{URL="http://www.google.com"}This will take you to Google{/URL}

That shows up as:

This will take you to Google (http://www.google.com)

A shortcut is if you use the little "insert link" button at the top of the posting form (you have to be in "advanced" mode)... type the net address where prompted, and the "URL" code will appear, with the text of the link already highlighted. You can type over the highlighted text with whatever you want to appear on the page.

Hope this helps.

General notes:

I agree with the idea to MM to push Polytheism ASAP. There is still a chance (however slim) that we get Hinduism, and barring that, a very good chance that we can get Monotheism for Judaism, since we already have Masonry. And even if we miss Judaism, with Monotheism, Priesthood, and Writing, we're just an oracle away from CoL or (and this will sound weird) Theology. I don't think I've ever slingshotted to Theology, and maybe for good reason, but it's a more valuable tech than CoL beaker-wise, making it more valuable for future tech trading, and it enables Theocracy early, which could be invaluable for early war.

Another thought: if I remember correctly, GP's lightbulb Theology at a very high priority ... basically its prereqs + Meditation. Let's say best case scenario. We actually nab Hinduism. If we do then I think we should detour to Monotheism and found Judaism as well, build a temple ASAP and assign a priest early in Moscow while we work on the Oracle in City #2, we could probably realistically grab both Christianity and Confucianism (CoL from the Oracle, Theology from the GP), setting us up for a strong religion monopoly, and giving us an expensive tech to potentially use in future tech trades. It means we can't build shrines until GP #2 and on up, but since Peter is philosophical that should be no more than a tiny hiccup. The bigger sacrifice is that it would probably be impossible to do all this and grab the Pyramids. This would be great if it worked, but disastrous if it failed.

Just trying to keep out-of-the-box thinking alive ;) I still vote in favor of bronze working -> iron working with agriculture in the mix to get 3-4 good cities up and running in a reasonable timeframe, but if the opportunity presents itself to grab as many as 4 religions early, we should nab it. Certainly I think Writing is a very high priority

As for city locations, some tough decisions early. Well, this wouldn't be Civ without that, would it? ;) Building on the PH gives us fish that we're not going to get otherwise, but Brian's dotmap gives us rice to compensate for the fish, and gives us gems as well. It also sacrifices being a coastal city (can't build FB from it, which could potentially be problematic), and is built on a hill that gives us no extra base production.

I think I tentatively like settling on the PH better, but it's certainly not a strong preference.

Thanks Civicide for your kind help.

Brian:
if we fail hindu, i'll get Mono first, so we can grab Judaism.
then the wheel, we need to move!
about cities:
red city: it's not coastal, i prefer 1S or 1SE
green city:it's OK if red city stays where you draw it, but if red city changes it's better 1SW
in this way we have room for a 6th city 1W of the northern gems
blue and pink are OK.
Civicide was posting when i was, then
there's another point for red city SE (ph): the GLH this can be the build queue (if we got sailing): Lighthouse - GLH - Pyramids
how does this sounds?

Rats!

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9155/ratsmediumdg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So I'm hearing requests to continue the pursuit of religion with Monotheism. Am I hearing correctly that we want to prioritize this over BW or Priesthood? Is there consensus?

there's another point for red city SW (ph): the GLH this can be the build queue (if we got sailing): Lighthouse - GLH - Pyramids
how does this sounds?
I assume you mean SE instead of SW? Moving the red dot SW, onto that plains hill, seems to me like it would be a disastrous city placement. Too much overlap with Moscow, no food resources, and killing our chances to get the clams and the fish to the east in any city's FC.

If we move the red dot I think moving it SE is the best option. Moving it S gives us three hills to work, in addition to the stone, but with only the clams for a food resource we won't be able to work all of them anyway until after we irrigate the grasslands.

And I do think we should move it. Having the city coastal, and having access to the second food resource right away (without any new techs, even), should jumpstart our early production once we fire up the whip.

That means moving the green dot SW or even W-SW. SW gives it only the rice and cows for food, but that's an all-grassland FC so food won't be an issue, it just means we'll need. W-SW makes the city a better GP farm in the long term, but impedes on the fish that the pink dot will eventually need (that said, with the proper MM, sharing a resource can still be a benefit - once the green-dot city is developed it won't need the fish, it's just useful for early growth for whipping).

Blue is perfect, pink is perfect, though if we find additional food resources with further scouting, a move SW or W-SW could potentially be in order. This would alleviate the concerns of moving the green dot W-SW and the fish overlapping.

How do you make the dotmaps? Just freehand with the strategy layer or is there some other trick I don't know about?

So I'm hearing requests to continue the pursuit of religion with Monotheism. Am I hearing correctly that we want to prioritize this over BW or Priesthood? Is there consensus?
I was pretty much just speculating. How many turns is Monotheism to research right now, and what can we MM it down to? Since we committed to Polytheism early (I might have gone for BW before mysticism, not saying it would be better, though) it would be very nice to grab judaism, if only for the possibility of running a priest to eventually lightbulb theology.

I think if we go monotheism now, though, that may put us in jeapordy of getting the Oracle.

I don't have much experience in early Judaism runs, but I'm concerned that whoever just grabbed Hinduism might already have masonry and might beat us to Judaism as well. That would pretty much be a disaster. Is that a valid concern?

Monotheism now seems high-risk high-reward. BW now is safer, but not as sexy.

I've played through completion of Poly. The workboat is now on the clams and a settler is started. The settler will take 16 turns to complete. This is when I wish we had BW and a worker. This is a bit of a risky settler in that we do not have any warriors. We have only the one scout.

Monotheism and BW will each take 14 turns to complete. This is as fast as they can be completed.

My vote would be, go for it, then, let's try to grab Judaism, I think the 14 turn delay will only hurt us marginally now, and the dividends could be quite nice in the long run. Hopefully whatever civ grabbed Hinduism is content with just the one religion, or we'll be able to catapult past them with our two fishing boats anyway.

I warn you, though, that this is largely territory that I don't normally explore. If there's anyone that feels strongly the other way, I would allow their voice to trump mine without question.

I think the risk of the settler without warrior is pretty small in this situation, since the site is so close, and since it appeared that the scout had been moved back where it can do some nominal fogbusting.

I agree on trying to get Judaism. Let's go for it.

It looks like a great start so far, and we have some really good territory to exploit.

Also agree with risking the settler without warrior. I want that city up FAST! It can build its own warrior when it's founded.

I'm in Taipei now, and should be at my apt in China before I come up in the latest proposed turnset, so let's go with that. Keep up the good work!

*runs to catch another plane*

*returns from the gate to add: Blubmuz, you can also highlight the word(s) you want to show instead of the url, and then click the link button (looks like a link of chain on a globe) and then put the url you want to link to in the box that pops up. saves typing. ;)

Yes, i was meaning SE,
correctly in my first instance (city list), and SW was a typo (now edited), when i edited after Civ's post
(danm, e and w are close in the kbd).

Judaism is worth the risk, pity we went for masonry, i didn't put a cent Hindu was so late.
If we manage to grab, let's revolt immediately to OR, a +25% building production can be crucial.
at this level often GLH comes very soon, then after Judaism
i propose to go for sailing:
the GLH is invaluable in this map, the more with our cheap harbours.

and thanks to you too, Merum for the help. ... have a nice trip

I think that's enough of a majority to go ahead and try to grab Judaism. Crossing my fingers! I'm not sure if we want to revolt for OR right away, though, or if we want to wait for BW and revolt into both Slavery and OR at the same time.

TGL + cheaper harbors should be a very nice synergy on this map, particularly if we're running OR. Is that +125% or +150% to harbor production? Either way, those are some cheap harbors :)

So I agree that TGL is huge, but Sailing next means yet another tech before BW? We will need slavery soon - when we hit IW we are probably going to want a fleet of 4+ workers to chop down the jungle and make room for our next city. If we're working on a Wonder in city #2, Moscow is going to have to be producing both workers and defenses against barbs. I'd hate to have to do that without a whip at my disposal.

The other advantage to BW first is, if it does reveal copper in our vicinity, it could help us choose an optimum location for city #2. I like the PH on the coast at the moment, but a copper source could easily change my mind...

I think Monotheism, then BW, revolt to OR and slavery, then Sailing. But that's just a gut feel based on how useful slavery should be in Moscow with two clams.

Long term prioritize IW over AH, but we obviously need both to see what our military options will be. If we're going for TGL I take that as a concession that we won't get the Oracle (I don't see how that would be possible), so Writing isn't as big a priority.

That means I would propose Mono, BW, Sailing, (agri?), IW, AH, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet. Somewhere in this we can hopefully squeeze out a GP, I'd say use lightbulb for Theology, which means we need Meditation first. If we get TGL it will pop us a Merchant in time - might want to look into lightbulbing metal casting for Colossus, though it's hard to turn down a long boat ride for a trade mission. Thoughts?

(edited to remove one potential justification for BW first, now very small, though I still think it's the right call. With BW 10+ turns away we obviously want to settle first before we can reveal copper.)

Well, the turn log pretty much says it all:

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Judaism has been founded in Moscow!
Turn 59, 2230 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

As you can see, I went a few turns beyond my allotment, but all I was doing was hitting Enter until Monotheism was discovered. Coincidentally, our settler completed on the same turn as Monotheism.

I started sailing as the next tech and warrior as the next build, but no turns have been put into either so can be changed without losing anything. I think a warrior is the correct next build, and then a worker.

As to techs, I go back and forth between Sailing and BW.

Also, if we are going to shoot for the Oracle, we'll need to research Priesthood soon.

NOTE: I did not adopt Judaism as our state religion. I assume we want to do this, but I thought I'd let this go the next person in case people feel this is not the right call.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC2200_01.CivWarlordsSave)

EDIT: I see Civicide posted while I was writing this up. I also vote for BW next.

AND ONE MORE THING: I agree with everyone who is saying to move my red city 1 SE. I really wanted the gems, but this will be our best production city and the one most likely to be able to build TGL, so we better put it on the coast.

Whoa!! I am away for the weekend, and will get home in 18 hrs or so, so will take a little time to digest all of this.

Sweet! I agree, warrior next, then worker. From there, player's choice (maybe a WB?) Barbs will be appearing sooner than we would like, though, and we need protection.

I think revolt to Judaism now, and OR as soon as we can. Found our 2nd city ASAP (what is the Russian city #2, anyway ... St. Petersburg?) - it should be safe if we still have our scout to bust fog with - and get our city #2 on the path to constructing a Wonder.

On that, now is the time to decide whether we want to prioritize what wonder we want (assuming we want one - I haven't heard anyone suggest not building one at all at this stage). I think our chances of getting both are slim, but our chances of getting one or the other should be quite good. BLubmuz has been making a good case for the GLH, but Oracle is still huge. I'm fairly neutral between the two myself.

Also, where do the Pyramids fit in? Are we assuming that with the stone, we'll be able to grab them AFTER GLH or Oracle? That's a stretch in my mind. Nobody's discussed the old standby of using the Pyramids' engineer to rush the Great Library, which gives us the two free super-scientists from Representation (not to mention the extra happiness), but that's viable too.

I know I'm posting a raw tonage here but this is kid of an important fork, I think.

Wow things seem to go in the right way, :goodjob:
Military units:
as i already told you this game is very similar to my test game.
I used what in civ 3 was called a "farmer's gambit": i mean i did NOT kept my warriors in the city, but 2 tiles away from the borders for fogbusting, until the city asks for protection.
The scout can help to this, fogbusting away from the warrior, and we can do this until all our island is settled.

I understand the benefits of BW, but start research sailing and build ASAP a lighthouse is a priority; in addiction, if our settler is ready, copper or not we have to settle, then for the time of next settler we'll have both.

I propose:
Tech path: sailing - BW - priest
probably our 3rd city will have the Oracle as first build, if we have enough production, otherwise Moscow will be charged of it, at the expenses to delay settlers production.
i think a very safe date for Oracle can be 1300, 1000 is a bit risky (BC, of course) pyramids can be safe until 500 or 400 BC, if not later.

At epic speed, every civ change requires 1 turn (unless you got a large empire, that means 2, to a max of 3).

I think as far as wonders go, I'd try to build the pyramids, then use the GE from it to pop another wonder.

Tough call on BW and priesthood. I might be inclined to do priesthood before BW, to ensure we get a good start on the oracle. However, we can use slavery to bang hammers into the oracle if we have BW.

Why are we doing sailing first? Somebody convince me this is a good idea. Seems to me the other two techs discussed are higher priority than sailing would be.

Merum, the reason for sailing first is the GLH.
I'm afraid that the time for build pyramids and to wait for the GE would be too long for GLH.
OTOH the time for GLH and pyramids can be too long.
We must try to guess the production rate of our 2nd city, and decide what can best work.
We have to took some risk, of course ... it's a big bet.

I agree with the techpath which is sailing -> Bronze Working

Our short term goal should be getting Great Lighthouse as soon as possible. I like the `farmers gambit`. Our current situation is perfect for it.

DT - you're up

Never heard of a name for that strategy before, but I guess I do the "farmer's gambit" all the time. I rarely do it if I don't have roads, though. If it's sailing then BW, we need to grab the wheel immediately after.

Speaking of roads, we're going to need them if we plan to use the stone. Where does the wheel fit into our research plan?

As I said... whoa!!! I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but I think the next TS should be well considered before being played. Our start was great, but from one coming in after a few days, it seemed a little wishy washy... in that we had definate plans to NOT go for an early religion, yet most of our research seems to be in that direction! I'm not saying I would've done any better, just that we shouldn't rush things, especially on an early wonder decision.

OK, here are some issues I have:

1. We probably shouldn't go for wonders without BW and a worker to chop... there is nothing more painful than losing an early wonder by a turn or two.
2. BW will help with city choice and of course the whip. (why would there be that little river just N of Moscow, btw?)
3. Which wonder will actually aid us most, considering we don't think we'll get them all, and keeping in mind the winning conditions? The oracle is that big short term tech boost, but also gets a GProphet quicker. The mids are more an all rounder, ie or research/ commerce, etc, and of course the GE. TGL will really boost commerce on a map like this, but so will the Collosus for water tiles (although TGL seems better suited in this map so far).
4. If we wanted to forgo TGL, religion (+shrine etc) spread to our neighbors can outweigh the wonder. Aggressive religion spread could be very useful.
5. With so many AIs, the tech rate will be high, and the earlier techs soon cheap. I thhink after we decide on the wonder(s), we should get to alpha asap, and pick up things like AH (not very useful yet, imo) in trade.

I guess what I'm saying is that we need a clear decision based on what will aid us toward a win, and the crux right now is which wonder to build. Personally I think we can do without TGL IF we spread Judaism soon, usually I'd go for the oracle, esp for the GPr, but it is short lived, whereas the Mids is on the other end of the spectrum, coming into its own when we grow further. So my vote is pyramids, followed by the oracle, and this means hooking the stone up asap, ie roads first, then BW.....

Hmm... I don't mean to say so much when I haven't had all that much time to study the game.. I just wanted to gt thoughts down. I agree with the city placements btw, pending BW.

DT - you're up

oh ok got the save. I ll play tomorrow.

Sweetacshon, good thoughts. As I move up the difficulty ladder, I find myself relying less on building wonders and more on taking them. With such a crowded map, I don't want to spend too much time building wonders. We need to expand quickly. That means quickly settling our island and some nearby ones. I played a test game starting on an island just slightly smaller and less endowed than this one. It was, however, next to a larger island that had 2 civs on it. I was able to quickly establish one city on that island, and it paid off big time as a beachhead. I was able to ferry across a troop buildup in that city using just one galley and take on one of the other civs.

Bottom line, I do agree we should have a focused approach on building wonders and not go for too many. I'd support Pyramids, Oracle if still avail, TGL. I'd also probably build The Hanging Gardens in the Pyramids city -- make it a real GE farm.

DT--can you post your plan before you play? I agree with Sweetacshon that we want to think this through and agree on a strategy.

Ok i ve just studied the save and here is my plan. Btw I ll not start my turnset until we all agreed about short term and long term plans.

1- Production in Moscow will be Warrior->Worker.

2- Tech depends on wonder build we choose. I ll edit this one according to our choice.

3- Second city will be placed here as we all agreed.
http://img102.imagevenue.com/loc600/th_70066_2nd_122_600lo.JPG (http://img102.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=70066_2nd_122_600lo.JPG)

4- I ll adopt judaism as a state religion

As for early wonder, I think that GLH is very important wonder for this map but we can build pyramid then oracle as Sweetchon suggested and hope that the civ that builds GLH is somewhere close so we can take it quickly. In this case our research path would be Wheel --> BW.

Hi, Doom
Sweetacshon is right, we (probably me first) was a bit confused, perhaps too much involved in the "religion race".
and BrianS too has some good point
your questions:
1 - Warrior first for sure, a worker now can only build a quarry ... IMO is better a workboat, then worker
2 - if we choose GLH, sailing first / if not, the wheel - BW (we already decided the placement of our 2nd city, so what can we do if it pops in a bad place?)
3 - settler is ready, and that hill is good, so settle there ... build queue: Pyramids, eventually change to lighhouse if we decide to try GLH
4 - Yes, then change civic to OR (+25% on buildings)

the sad thing is that we can probably build one of those, but not both ... i bet on Pyramids, usually never saw completed before 500BC, but the GLH is precious on this map, so ... i chickenly (?) abstain, and lurk the team opinions.

At this point, I'd go for a worker before another workboat. The workboats are expensive and are all used up on one resource. We need a worker to, for starts, build a quarry for the pyramids, build some highways, chop some forests and build some mines. I think there will be plenty for him to do.

Agreed. Worker before workboat, though I'm certianly not opposed to using Moscow to build a workboat for St. Petersburg at some point.

We need the wheel before we can take advantage of the stone, so I'd vote for the warrior first.

I also prefer to go for the pyramids, rather than the GLH. I think the benefits of the pyramids are far greater than the GLH, which won't really help us that much until we have a bunch of cities, and the techs to benefit from the trade routes. The pyramids, on the other hand, give us access to all government civics, as well as GE points. Busting out a few great engineers early in the game can give us a huge advantage, allowing us to build advantageous wonders we wouldn't otherwise be able to. (Can anybody say pyramids/hanging gardens in the same city? :mischief:)

If we go for BW relatively early, we may be able to chop out the GLH in another city while we build the pyramids, anyway.

I'd research wheel>BW>Sailing, but I'm funny that way.

The obvious winners of the last game were the ones that gambled. I'd rather gamble and have a chance for a huge payoff and risk a spectacular loss, than play a middle of the road game and finish in the middle of the pack. That's just my personality. Let's live a little.

The obvious winners of the last game were the ones that gambled. I'd rather gamble and have a chance for a huge payoff and risk a spectacular loss, than play a middle of the road game and finish in the middle of the pack. That's just my personality. Let's live a little.

I agree with this ... or is a metal laurel or death.

Then i agree also with Merum's suggestions

I agree with this ... or is a metal laurel or death.

Then i agree also with Merum's suggestions

Now that's what I'm talking about! A bullet or a brevet!

Let's go, guys... I know we can win this if we hang it out there. (either that or we'll all have a good laugh about our wooden spoons) :D

L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!

Well, I just meant to get everybody thinking before we continued... and now everybody seems even more fired up!

TGL is by no means a poor choice... all wonders are useful. Has everybody given up on them? The trouble with me is that I rarely go for the Mids... just today I was having a crack at gotm13, got the mids, and forgot to actually use the govt civics until about 900AD, 2000 odd years odd after building... just pathetic.

Anyway, if we ARE doing the Pyramids, we obviously want the city and worker for the stone, but do we want another settler out before the wonder? Three cities are of course a big advantage over 2, and we'd have time to hook up the stone, but would this jeopardise the wonder?

Good question about the settler... I was assuming that we would build pyramids in St Petersburg, not in Moscow. St Pete's is going to be the better production city of the two, but it will grow fairly slowly.

Another important consideration, not for this turnset, but soon, is that we're going to need IW to clear all that damn jungle. I really think we should get hammers for clearing jungle too, wood is wood, after all.

Sounds like we have a plan. Warrior -> Worker. Wheel ->BW. Mids in St Petes. Go for it DT!

Ok starting the turnset now. I ll post report and save tommorow...

Well i couldn t sleep so decided to play:)

Turn 1 : Adoption of Judaism started.(1 turn anarchy)

Turn 2 : anarchy is over. wheel is 8 turns away.

Turn 3 : Met Alexander!.

Turn 4: Founded St.Pete.

Turn 5: Science slider decreased to %90 because we dont have enough money to support %100 ( 5 turns left for Wheel)

Turn 6: I realised there is a clam so swithed production of St. pete to workboat. Investing hammers to mids with 1 pop is inefficient anyway. Workboat will be completed before worker hooks up the stone.

Turn 7: nothing

Turn 8: Judaism spread to St. Pete

Turn 9: Discovered Wheel started BW. Warrior completed in Moscow started Worker.

Turn 10: Nothing

Turn 11: Judaism spread in Beijing and we met Mao.

Turn 12: Mao converts to Judaism

Turn 13 - 15 : Nothing

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC1780_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn 60, 2200 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 60, 2200 BC: Fifth Element converts to Judaism!
Turn 60, 2200 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 63, 2110 BC: St. Petersburg has been founded.

Turn 64, 2080 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 66, 2020 BC: Judaism has spread in St. Petersburg.

Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 69, 1930 BC: Judaism has spread in Beijing.

Turn 70, 1900 BC: Mao Zedong converts to Judaism!

Nice :) The spread of religion could potentially be very important.

Question: is it kosher to peek around in the save file even if I'm not scheduled next, so long as I don't move anything? I think that would be much more helpful than relying on bandwidth-wasting screenshots and time-consuming descriptions. I'm curious to peek but don't want to do anything that's not within the rules.

Yes, you can look at the save at any time. As long as you don't change anything that gives you knowledge you can't see from the save as you open it, you are free to poke around in there.

Okay, a few random thoughts...

We will be competing with Sparta over cultural control over the fish tile between us. This is fairly important as those fish are integral to St. Pete's ability to thrive as a production city. Having judaism there will help, of course, but a Wonder will solidify that control. That is, assuming Sparta stays in Greek control for a very long time :)

Don't forget to switch to OR before we start building stuff. If we switch to OR and slavery in the same turn, is it still just 1 turn of anarchy? If so, we should definitely do that. If not, we should still probably do that, to prevent from having to do it twice. We obviously should wait for the worker before any revolt, though.

Beijing is in a nice spot for a well-rounded capital, with much better production vs. Moscow and plenty of potential for commerce.

Mao getting our religion should be good in making us friends for the time being, and on a map with 17 opponents, friends are good. With Beijing having at least three resources we don't have (ivory, corn, crabs), the city would be a very nice one to take, but I'm hesitant to DOW on someone that grabbed our religion so early on such a crowded map. Mao being protective will mean that his cities will only be that much tougher to crack. Whether to go to war with them may depend on who else we contact in the near future. Someone almost certainly has to be on the island to our SW. Unless they get religion too, that might be a better choice.

Judiasm has 8% influence. Hinduism has 15% influence at the moment, wherever it is. Ouch. Buddhism, only 2% influence. This could very well mean that the same civ grabbed both Hinduism and Buddhism. The turns in which they were discovered would certainly allow for that.

Sparta is built right on top of Stone. Alexander is almost certainly trying for a Wonder of some sort. That's the bad news. The good news is, we could probably take it if we wanted, whatever it is :)

Since Mao and Alexander share an island, Alexander should grab Judaism before too long as well. This means war with one will likely eventually mean war with the other, as they'll be friends.

If we get sailing soon, we may want to go looking on the island to the SW for city spots before we worry about our forthcoming massive jungle chop. Maintenance will actually be less, and there are already two hills visible. If there's any food in the vicinity of that corner of the island, that could wind up turning into a good production city spot, and with hammers in such short supply on our own island, that could be invaluable. Also, assuming there is a civ on that island, that spot will be eaten up much more quickly than the spots on our own island. I'm just a little hesitant to wait for a massive chopping operation before we can get a third city up and running. I think sailing next may be in order, and whip a galley in Moscow for exploratory and expansionistic purposes.

OK , Gents... I have the save, but right now I'm drunk on baijiu, which, for you uninaugurated western heathens, is roughly a cross between jet fuel and everclear. It's probably best if I don't mess with it right now, so I'll play tomorrow. Consider this your feedback period. :D

Sweetacshon, you're closest, I think you should haul your butt up here and experience it for yourself. ;)

EDIT: By the way, extreme drunkeness and glass furniture don't mix. Consider that a word to the wise. ;)

Merum, is baijiu the same as the so called "rice wine" in China? If so, I know where you're coming from. For those who are not familiar with it, do not be fooled by the term wine. This is distilled, and it's nasty!

Sweetchon is up next.

I post a new Roster (the old one is buried somewhere):

Merum (up)
Sweetacshon (on deck)
Civicide
Blubmuz
BrianS
Doom Train

And some toughts:
I agree about WB in S.Pete first, Pyramids would be a waste without stone hooked
Moscow: after worker WB - settler - warrior (again, farmer's gambit)
Revolt to OR right after S.Pete finishes WB (useless right now)
Research: after BW Priesthood - writing (writing costs less with its prerequisites)
How about an exploring WB?

And a reflection:
What is doing a 100% abstemious here?

Brian, yes, it's the rice wine. Here they call it "white wine", which is literally what baijiu means (bai=white and jiu=wine). I'm a bit of a VIP and a celebrity here, which means everybody has to come and toast me at every function I attend. Such a life. :rolleyes: Anyway, it's a good thing I'm a good drinker. I had an american customer here last month, who took one glass of the stuff and had to go to the bathroom and hurl. It was great fun. :mischief:

Sorry guys, but I'll have to skip or swap, as I am away over the weekend (home Monday arvo). Merum, I wouldn't mind a trip to China, but EVERY weekend is booked up - it's that time of year... I'll just have to settle for Sydney instead. ;)

To the game... the plans sound good so far, and good to see Judaism has spread. Land will be at a premium on this map, so we should get exploring boats out asap; for settling, spreading religion, and for identifying targets. Also a good idea to look at the nearby islands before the jungle.

Anyway, goodluck til Monday!!

Well, I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is that Alexander wasn't building the pyramids with his stone. He built the great wall, instead.

The bad news is that somebody else built the oracle on the very same turn. :(

Some other bad news is that our scout got munched by a barb warrior when I moved him out of our borders for a looksee.

Some other good news is that we have copper on our island, across the bay from Moscow.

I used the HOF Mod autolog feature, but I guess it doesn't really provide any editorial additions, and I forgot the shortcut key to add comments to the log in the game.


Turn 75 (1750 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 76 (1720 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 77 (1690 BC)

Turn 78 (1660 BC)

Turn 79 (1630 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
St. Petersburg grows: 2

Turn 80 (1600 BC)
Research begun: Priesthood

Turn 81 (1570 BC)
Judaism has spread: Guangzhou (Chinese Empire)

Turn 82 (1540 BC)

Turn 83 (1510 BC)
St. Petersburg's borders expand

Turn 84 (1480 BC)
Moscow grows: 6

Turn 85 (1450 BC)

Turn 86 (1420 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 87 (1390 BC)
Tech learned: Priesthood
Moscow finishes: Work Boat
Judaism has spread: Sparta (Greek Empire)
Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (2.00/2)

Turn 88 (1360 BC)
Research begun: Sailing
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 89 (1330 BC)


It does make nice pretty colors though. :D

I revolted to slavery and OR after we researched bronze working, and while the quarry was building. We can now whip and chop to our heart's content.

I started sailing after priesthood, because it will be a lot quicker to sail the settler from Moscow to the copper than to walk all the way around. There's a workboat in the south that I built for exploration, but we also have the fish tile S of St Pete's now, so do with it what you will. Moscow is building another warrior because the barbs are here, and I felt we needed a little more defense.

Bummer about the oracle, but that's the way the ball bounces sometimes, I guess. Whoever built it probably had marble.

Judaism is spreading nicely, and at the end of the turnset, Alexander decided to be Jewish like us.

teh save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC1330_01.CivWarlordsSave)


Turn 79, 1630 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Fifth Element adopts Slavery!
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Fifth Element adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 81, 1570 BC: Judaism has spread in Guangzhou.

Turn 83, 1510 BC: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!

Turn 84, 1480 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!
Turn 84, 1480 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.

Turn 87, 1390 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Judaism has spread in Sparta.
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Scout (1.50)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 87, 1390 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Fifth Element's Scout is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 87, 1390 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Fifth Element's Scout!
Turn 87, 1390 BC: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!

Turn 88, 1360 BC: The enemy has been spotted near St. Petersburg!
Turn 88, 1360 BC: Alexander converts to Judaism!

hmm it seems judaism spread to Greece. Havethey adopted it as a state religion?

Good turnset. Nothing to be done about the Oracle. Good thing we didn't try for it - we'd have never made it.

Okay, if we skip Sweets, then I would be next, right? If so, this is the "got it", I have the save open now but won't do anything until we verify the order. I'd hate to wait through the whole weekend.

Judaism is now at 11% influence. Hinduism has dropped from 15% to 11% ... Buddhism is still at 3%. That probably means that the cities with Hinduism aren't growing as fast, and that it's not spreading.

Mao is +3 to us, Alexander is +2. They are +2 to each other, and already have an active trade: Mao's Ivory (!) for Alex's Clams. Both of them will have the ability to make elephants in the future. Mao is willing to trade us cows but we don't have anything to trade them.

What's the production plan in Moscow? It will grow in 4 turns and become unhappy. This is as good a reason as any, I think, to whip the warrior and work on something else. Probably a settler for city #3, which I would suggest using a galley for. Once the settler is done we should build a galley for it. It will take a settler 13 turns to walk to our obvious next city site, the pink dot on BrianS's original map, across the bay to hook up the copper. More, actually with a warrior escort, which we would obviously need. With a galley, it's three turns, and if we have whip overflop from a settler, a galley should be done in Moscow before that, and it'll be much safer. The galley should be loaded with the settler and our new warrior for immediate defense.

After that Moscow should start thinking about a temple, for happiness, and so we can work a priest to build the Temple of Solomon. That's 5 gpt right now, which will be massive, and will only increase (if we have nothing better to do with our galley other than explore, we might even consider loading it up with a missionary).

Once the stone is hooked up in St. Pete's, we might want to wait until it's size 4 and then whip a monument, spilling the overflow back into the Mids. This will help solidify our hold over the fish for the time being, and use two population more efficiently than the one for a warrior, with the same happiness penalty. It'll grow back quickly with the seafood.

What I'm up in the air on is what to research after Sailing is done. My gut tells me AH > Pottery > Writing (it'll be a while before we need Agriculture for rice, and with our food in moscow, we're better off cottaging), but much of the time my gut has poop for brains :)

Reading through my rambling again, I think these are the things we need to determine before the next TS:

1) Where will our next city go? For now our choices appear to be, (referring to Brian's dotmap), the pink dot across the bay, to hook up the copper, or near the green dot, North of St. Pete's, to work the cows and gain access to gems as we hack down the jungle.

I vote pink, no real contest. It will be another decent production city early (5h for the copper alone), and will give us gemsx2 once we get IW. (green dot can only give us gems x1, though it will have better food with the cows). And it will let us build axemen, which should guarantee our safety from barbarians on the island, and give us the first workings of an early army.

The downside is, until the cultural borders expand, pink-dot will be pretty much worthless, meaning we need to hope for quick religion spread or wait for a monument to build. It will have no access to 2f squares until we either chop jungle or the borders expand, making it a slow process. We may wind up having to chop forest for a quicker monument, something I hate doing with limited trees available.

1a) Assuming we build across the bay, do we walk the settler overland or wait for a galley? Overland is much riskier but could wind up being quicker.

Here I vote for waiting for a galley. We should be able to whip one fairly quickly (probably sacrifice 2pop for the galley 15 turns after we whip the warrior that's building), and there's essentially no risk to expanding that way. Plus, having a galley early will be a benefit anyway, since we need to start making contact with people to get a feel for what we're up against.

2) What should we prioritize in terms of research? To me it looks like Writing vs. Iron Working. Writing for open borders and libraries for scientists, vs Iron Working for the reveal of iron and to chop jungle.

Tough call here. I'm not sure if I have an initial vote. This kind of hinges, I think, on whether we want to invade someone early. Since we seem to have made friends with Alexander and Mao, for the time being, by virtue of our religion spreading too quickly, I'd be loathe to waste potentially good friends (if Alexander is on your side in particular, he can be a nice attack dog), but then again, Alex already has one Wonder, and with the GW popping him an engineer, he will probably get another one soon. That, and the fact that that island looks like it has some very nice city spots, paints a bullseye on both their foreheads. Like I said, tough call. I think I lean toward IW first, since it will help out our economy as well via jungle chopping and giving us access to all those gems.

Thoughts?

Also, who's playing this TS?

You're next after sweetacshon, so you get to swap with him.

As far as city placement, I favor a city 1N of the copper. That site gets us the copper and 3(!) gems. On top of that, it's still coastal. The obvious downside to this site is that is misses the fish, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. That site will also spread our culture outward from our island better. The borders will also touch Moscow's giving us early "free" cultural expansion.

We are in OR now. That means we can build missionaries without monasteries. We can send a missionary to the new city to ensure quick religion spread, and thereby get our cultural expansion.

I think we'd be better having Alex and Mao as trading partners and friends early. I'm sure there's somebody else close by we can whip up on, we just have to find them. :mischief:

You always have a vote in this game, Civicide. We may rib you for being the new guy, but we are all absolute equals here.

Now go kick some ass. :D

Okey dokey, I went ahead and played the TS.

Started off uneventful, but a few highlights did occur:

1) Contact with Hatshepsut. On an island up to the NE that we hadn't seen before. Judaism spread in Memphis and Hatty has now converted, giving us no fewer than 3 fellow rabbi-centric cultures in as many civs. (We need a temple and priest ASAP!) I also started a trade with her, our clams for her cows, which we could do now that we have Sailing (I started work on AH, figuing it's a safe tech that we will need soon regardless). We don't need the cow but the trade can help relations if nothing else. (Besides, how many people are there gonna be on this map without access to clams? :D)

2) The Great Lighthouse was completed, by our good friend Mao no less. Turn 100, earlier than like 1000 BC. I don't think we'd have made it had we gone for it. I guess that settles that debate.

3) Whipped the warrior in Moscow just to overflow into our Settler as it became unhappy, Settler is now complete and awaiting instruction. I moved it N to some safe squares but we will likely want to put it on a Moscow Galley. We can whip a galley now for 2 pop if we want (happiness penalty from first whip is now gone), but we might want to wait until Moscow grows back to size six, due in a couple of turns. Will be the call of whoever plays next.

4) Whipped for a monument in St. Pete's and chopped two forests for the Mids, Worker is now currently working on a mine. Mids are due in 20-some turns but we should be able to crank that down to the teens from working a mine, maybe less with a timely whip.

Here's the save! (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC0940_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Turn by turn notes, for the masochistic:

Turn 89: 1330 BC - inherited

Road hooked up, stone production now active. Moved warrior in St. Petersburg NW, as per the farmer's gambit. I plan to plant him on the nearby rice. Whipped warrior in Moscow (took production off of forest/grassland for settler).

Turn 90

Started Settler in Moscow. For now the warrior is moving toward St. Pete's, just to be safe.

Turn 91

Started chopping near St. Pete's.

Turn 93

Nothing

Turn 94

Nothing much. Spotted a settler of Mao's heading east from Guangzhou.

Turn 95

Chop #1 completed.

Turn 96

Stonehinge built in a far away land.

Turn 97

Nothing

Turn 98

Nothing

Turn 99

Sailing researched, I went ahead and started on AH.

Turn 100

Contact made with Hatty! They got Judaism in Memphis, on an island we couldn't even begin to see, off to the NE. Checking the trade window they had cows available to trade for clams. I went ahead and went for it. They must have copper hooked up as they have spearmen in Memphis. They have no contact with Mao or Alexander. Memphis is a jungle-heavy city with two mined hills that I can see, as well as pigs that are currently covered by jungle, and bananas. Judaism is spreading McDonalds.

Turn 101

Lord McCauley has completed his greatest work, The Most Cultured Civilizations of the World!. Hatty ranks in at #4, we are 5, Mao is 7, rest are unknown. Hatty converts to Judaism. Mao completes the Great Lighthouse (!) It's in Beijing. I'll be very very happy if we actually land the Mids. Crossing fingers...

Turn 102

St. Pete's hit size 4. I switched to a monument and whipped two pops down. Sparta's cultural borders popped a bit back. The fish are 80% in our control.

Turn 103

Settler complete in Moscow. Building a Galley. Overflow from the monument gave us 28 base hammers for a 76 hammer turn in St. Pete's.

Turn 104

Nothing



edited to add: oh yeah, I forgot to mention, Stonehenge was built in a far away land as well, not that that wasn't going to happen eventually. I went ahead and played the TS despite saying there were things we needed to determine, well, because the turnset would end before those decisions really needed to be made, and AH is a natural next tech, to cheapen the cost for Writing, and to reveal horses. I vote IW next, though.

As far as city placement, I favor a city 1N of the copper. That site gets us the copper and 3(!) gems. On top of that, it's still coastal. The obvious downside to this site is that is misses the fish, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. That site will also spread our culture outward from our island better. The borders will also touch Moscow's giving us early "free" cultural expansion.
Hmm. I'd be extremely hesitant to put the city over there without any food resource. 1N of the copper has a couple of squares that we haven't explored yet, and if we find seafood there, then definitely, go for it. But if not, then the city would be doomed to very slow growth for the whole game, and we'd be unable to work the copper without accepting a food surplus of 1. That to me is worth the third gem spot.

I'd say it'd definitely be worth a quick scout from the galley before we decide, though.

We are in OR now. That means we can build missionaries without monasteries. We can send a missionary to the new city to ensure quick religion spread, and thereby get our cultural expansion.
True enough, though if the Judiasm spread trend continues, we won't need to :D. Them rabbis are spreading the word. Judaism is the new McDonald's :)

I think we'd be better having Alex and Mao as trading partners and friends early. I'm sure there's somebody else close by we can whip up on, we just have to find them. :mischief:
Well, so far, our religion is finding people faster than we can :lol:. We may have to go find whoever founded Hinduism and :whipped:+:spear: us some gosh darn heathens :mischief:

You always have a vote in this game, Civicide. We may rib you for being the new guy, but we are all absolute equals here.
My style is naturally self-depricating, in case you haven't noticed :mischief:. I know I'm not nearly as experienced as many of you, and I will make some mistakes (believe it), but if something's 50/50 in my head, I won't pretend to have an opinion :)

Looking at the save, I think we should whip the galley when Moscow grows, and get that settler across the water ASAP.

As far as research, we should be looking to pick up IW to clear the jungle off the gems, and we should also be looking for mathematics very soon, so that we can build the HG in St Pete after the mids completes. IF we can pull that off, we'll have a monster city there, that will probably overwhelm Sparta with culture. We'll also have a great GE farm, which will lead to other goodness.

After Math, alphabet so we can trade with our good Jewish friends before they decide they don't like being Jewish anymore. From there, it's time to start building an army and navy, I think.

Also, I just noticed: Mao has writing already, meaning we can set up Open Borders with them. I think we should, if for no other reason than to allow us to set up trade routes with them for the :commerce:.

Alex and Hatty aren't quite there yet.

Hi all, seems it's my turn, since i think i'll post a save before Monday, just in time for have Sweetacshon back.
I got and opened the save.
I went back to BrianS' city map, that we previously discussed.**

I've never seen Oracle completed so soon, usually 1400BC is a safe date, nor GLH before 1000.
Let's hope pyramids will be "normal", so we'll probably managed on them.
to our partial consolation the AI which built the oracle can't have used it for an advanced tech.
The Hindu AI is probably isolated, then it's not spreading significantly.

Plans for my TS:
it's OK to whip the galley in Moscow?
** I think that the copper city can be placed where Brian suggested the pink city, unless the galley can reveal some seafood in the south sea.
After AH, it's OK go for archery? i hate this, but we need to protect our cities, or to fogbust (i fear barb axes)
if not, writing - alpha? or else?

i'll wait for your comments, then play late tonight or tomorrow.

I don't think we'll need archery, we have BW and we have copper... just get a worker over to it and let's build axes, instead.

I'd whip the galley, get the settler and a warrior over there, and start another worker (to go and mine the copper, so don't send the galley far away yet) in Moscow.

Research priorities should be Iron Working (to remove jungle), Mathematics (hanging gardens) and Alphabet (Trading with our friends while they're still friends).

Agreed, no need for archery at the time being. If we want to research anything before IW/Writing it would probably be Pottery, for granaries, because we probably want to cottage around Moscow, and to make Writing even cheaper, but I think we're fine if we just go AH > IW > Writing > Math.

I've also never seen the Oracle built that soon, not on Monarch. Craziness. My guess is that it got somebody Monarchy. The AI always seems to prioritize that.

And I agree that once we get our 3rd city up and running, hook up the copper, and finish the Mids, it's time to start building up an army and navy, and finding someone to beat up on.

Nice job guys. I agree with the suggestions to whip the galley and prioritize IW. We need IW to start mining the gems. I also agree with the thinking to keep the pink city where it is on the dot map unless there are seafood resouces available W/SW of copper (and I hope there is!).

For the record: It's not going to kill me if we settle on the pink dot. The gems are just making me drool. :D

i've sen your posts. then:
Agreed about 3rd city placement (pink dot, if no seafood south)
but no copper until border expansion, and if we are lucky and religion spreads, OK, otherwise it can be a long story
We're not so agreed about the res. path:
once completed AH, writing or IW? usually i try to get IW from trade, so i prefer Wri-alpha, eventually try to get math from trade ... HG are usually built in the AD years, but never know with those AIs...
We can ferry our worker to the west-end, and build a new one in moscow, after the galley, then use the galley to explore.

I'll wait until tomorrow (better be more specific with our time zones):
2006/12/10 10.00AM GMT, then i'll play my TS

If we are lucky, religion will spread early, if we are not lucky, religion will spread a bit later. I think after the galley is done we need to start on a Temple in Moscow (I'm the only one that's said anything on this so far, though, so others should feel free to chime in - but a priest in Moscow working toward a GP should be a priority; this will probably be our #2 great person, after an engineer out of the Mids). Then it should be at least two more workers, I think, to setup our jungle chopping for cities 3 and 4. By then the Mids will be done and St. Pete's can start on our army.

If religion hasn't spread by the time The Temple is done, a missionary for city #3 should be our next build. A missionary out of Moscow will be quicker than a monument in city #3. If religion spreads while we're building the missionary, great, we can use it to convert a heathen :)

If we think we'll be able to trade for IW as soon as we get Alphabet, then I see the advantage of going Writing>Alpha first, but seeing those unworked gems is like watching money burning.

Edit to add: also, with the pink dot city, it will take some time to hook up copper, which means we should probably start thinking a bit more aggressively with our fogbusting. Barbs will have axemen disturbingly soon. Also, remember, with No City Razing on, if we wind up with a barb city on our island, in a poor spot, we won't be able to raze it and settle where we want. Another argument for aggressive fogbusting.

So then, if we settle on the pink dot, we have no axemen for at least 20 turns, if not more. I'm not so sure I like that alternative. We better start building enough warriors to bust the whole island, and figure we're going to lose some trying to get there.

The other option is researching archery. Depends how long we think it'll be before we start needing more than warriors (i.e. when the barbs get axes)...

Yes, but it just sucks to waste beakers on a dead-end tech.

Agreed. I know we said we wanted to take risks this game, maybe this is the point? At what point does it cease becoming a risk and start to become simply dumb play? :D

Well, I guess the best way to find out would be to send some warriors out to bust, and see what they encounter. If we can successfully bust the island without building archers, we'll be good. The galley can help with this some too, after delivering the settler.

In retrospect, we probably should have pumped out a few fogbusters much earlier, when we had only animals to deal with.

I agree we do not need archery. Island is small it shouldnt be much problem to cover it in short time.

As for tech since this is an island that means no early war so we don t need iron right now. I say go for Alphabet.

Even though we may not need Iron for war anytime soon, we do need it to mine the gems and is quite important to our ability to keep up in the tech race. I'd still probably research it before alpha just so we can start on the gems.

I'm sorry but i was pressed today, and i started play only 2 hours ago.

IT - 940BC
whipped galley in Moscow
moved warrior NE
Moscow grows: 4
Moscow finishes: Galley
Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Warrior

Turn 1 (925 BC)

Turn 2 (910 BC)

Turn 3 (895 BC)
Contact made: Indian Empire

Turn 4 (880 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 5 (865 BC)
Research begun: Writing
St. Petersburg grows: 3

Turn 6 (850 BC)
the galley is filled with our settler and warrior, ready to land
stopped, to get opinions, 'cause i'm very undecided between:

city 3 - 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144091&stc=1&d=1165787220) and city3 - 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144092&stc=1&d=1165787220)

in addiction, i've tried to draw 3 more cities, which need to be discussed.
i'm in favour of choice 1, it will be a powerhouse, but choice 2 will assure more short-time benefits.

building chariots can be good for defence against archers and probably axes, so this can favour choice 1

The horses make option 1 a no-brainer in my opinion. It alleviates our concern of not being able to hook up copper early, for two reasons: 1, we can hook up the horses as fast as we'd have been able to hook up the copper, and 2, the good production spot on the horses means a monument will finish relatively quickly.

Edited to point out, yes, chariots are great defense against axes; they get a +50% bonus vs. them.

This is just one vote, but I think that we absolutely must have a food resource, so that we can work the copper and 1-2 mined hills while still running a food surplus. If we build the city where it can't access food, we'll never be able to have a food surplus of more than 2, and thus won't be able to work more than 1 hammer spot without stagnating the city.

Just out of curiousity, what did you switch the production to in Moscow after the galley? I know I've been all gung-ho about a temple next, but the recent discussions make a good argument for popping out a couple of warriors first.

Also, is India Asoka or Gandhi?

@ Civicide
Can you please "translate" [gung-ho]?
Man, i need an effort to read and write in english (not much, luckily), but if you start with slangs... :eek:

back to the game...
I probably needed just one more opinion to get choice 1, then i'll start to play right now.

India is Gandhi, i forget to edit the autolog :blush: .
I started a worker, to avoid to loose hammers in a warrior, then switched a warrior in the next turn.

Also, i moved the 2 warriors north to fight the archer, they got some chance in a jungle hill, at worst the 2nd can finish the victoriuos-but-injured archer.

Sorry. To be "Gung Ho" about something is to be aggressively in favor of it. Usage: "President Bush was 'Gung Ho' about going to war in Iraq."

My apologies. Take it as a compliment: your English is good enough for me not to think about whether or not I'm using slang.

My TS: sorry to have overextended a bit, but i like to see our PYRAMIDS:

Turn 105 (925 BC)

Turn 106 (910 BC)

Turn 107 (895 BC)
Contact made: Indian Empire (Gandhi)

Turn 108 (880 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 109 (865 BC)
Research begun: Writing
St. Petersburg grows: 3

Turn 110 (850 BC)
Warrior loses to: Barbarian Archer (1.74/3)

Turn 111 (835 BC)
Novgorod founded
Moscow finishes: Warrior
Warrior defeats (0.56/2): Barbarian Archer
QED (you use slang, so i go with Latin ... don't worry, Civ and thanks)

Turn 112 (820 BC)

Turn 113 (805 BC)
Judaism has spread: Novgorod

Turn 114 (790 BC)
Contact made: Incan Empire
Judaism has spread: Machu Picchu (Incan Empire)

Turn 115 (775 BC)
signed OB with HC

Turn 116 (760 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 117 (745 BC)
Novgorod finishes: Warrior

Turn 118 (730 BC)
Tech learned: Writing

Turn 119 (715 BC)
Research begun: Alphabet

Turn 120 (700 BC)
Moscow grows: 5

Turn 121 (685 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 122 (670 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 4

Turn 123 (655 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: The Pyramids

Turn 124 (640 BC)
and the fresh hindu Gandhi founded Calcutta ... guess where?
exactly in my blue-city-spot.
Am i wrong, or Calcutta is the 3rd Indian city?

I think that the religion was a good choice, we "just" need a priest for our lucrative shrine, then a temple in Moscow is mandatory, but we have to fill OUR island, and to protect our cities.
Our first victim is known.

I started Alpha, with all those AIs already contacted, it's a pity not to start trading techs ASAP.
and, if you wonder about a crowded map... just look at the save (posted in the official place, no links, sorry)

Roster:
Sweetacshon (up)
BrianS (on deck)
Doom Train
Sweetacshon (again, we swapped)
Civicide
Blubmuz

@Sweetacshon, please don't move any warrior, as you see there's NO FoW in our island.
good luck

Since I'm in on work on a Sunday without much to do, I've been playing around with the graphs over on the progress and results page. It appears that our game so far has differed pretty wildly from most of the others. For one, I'd venture a guess to say that we were the ONLY team playing on Warlords that managed to found an early religion (this is apparent from the culture graph; our culture spiked upwards at 2200 BC, and the next civ to have a culture spike had it around 1200BC). For our time period, we are WAY above anyone else in culture. This is great news. Considering the rapidity with which Judaism has been spreading, this may well give us an advantage that no other team can claim: early friends and the potential for very nice money once we manage to build a shrine.

The power graph is interesting. We spent the entire time from 3100BC to 1300BC way behind the curve in power, and have only just recently started to catch up. This probably suggests that we were one of the few civs not to build any early warriors, and that our WB-WB-Settler start may well have been unique.

I consider both of these observations to be good signs, that we are taking risks, and that so far, we have seen some advantages from them. All things considered, I think we're off to an awesome start.

Edited to point out: WE GOT THE PYRAMIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woohoo!!!!!!! Looking at the culture graphs of the other civs, I'm thinking we're the only team that has a religion and a wonder. Awesome.

Great news about the pyramids. I'd say the next step is to build a buttload of chariots and go take our next city by force. Nothing like settling by chariot. :hammer: :D 4-5 chariots ought to be enough to take the Indian city.

I recommend we work the clams instead of the forest at St. Pete. It cuts our growth time to 8, shaves two turns off alphabet, and only makes the barracks take 1 turn longer.

We can jump to Representation now, which will allow our cities to grow larger and give us more science.

Hatty and Alex can now sign OB with us. Recommend we do so.

Alex is being choked for space by Mao. You can expect a war between the two of them soon.

Based on the number of cities hatty and huayna have, we have judaism only in 1 each. Let's hope it spreads, otherwise they won't be jewish for long.

Okay, got a look at the save. My usual sprawling, random notes to follow.

Looks like we're in good shape. I agree that Representation is a way to go, but it's almost a shame, since HR is the favorite civic of both Huayna Capac and Alexander.

Most of the civs have not yet made contact with one another. Here's what that looks like:

Hatty: OB with HC, Contact with us
HC: OB with Hatty, OB with us, OB with Alex
Alex: OB with HC, Contact with us, OB with Mao
Mao: OB with Alex, OB with us
Gandhi: OB with us

Gandhi has yet to meet ANY of our buddies.

OB with Hatty should give us trade with HC, which we don't have.

Very nice job with the fogbusting.

What is the Galley doing way up where it is? I can only assume that we escorted a warrior up into fogbusting position?

Judaism spreading into Novgorod as quickly as it did was lucky. We've had good luck with religion spread. That's 8 cities with Judaism so far, and counting.

Hatty is running OR, her favorite civic. She will be a strong ally for as long as we continue to run OR.

Mao has IW. He has workers mining a jungled hill.

Moscow is ready for the whip if need be. 2 Pop for the Temple. It's currently working a couple of squares that don't do much, and the temple will offset the happiness penalty (not to mention the +3 for Representation). Hit the whip and start the revolution, and we have a priest that also gives us a research boost :)

The Mids came in St. Petersburg just in time. Our control over the fish is just 57%. When our borders pop twice, we should eventually be able to overwhelm Sparta in culture and flip it.

We will have a GE pop in St. Petersburg in a mere 37 turns, turn 161. Consider that in our research. I agree that Alphabet is a priority, as the tech trading will be invaluable. I'd imagine OR will be a very valuable commodity for tech trading. That being said, Greece will also have a GE pop before too long. Alexander is philosophical and he has the Great Wall, which was built in turn 84. This means he will get his own GE in turn 159 if my calculations are correct. He will beat us by 2 turns to whatever Wonder he wants. Hopefully he doesn't pick the HG. If he doesn't have Math by the time his GE pops, we should definitely not trade it to him. And we should probably plan to have Math before we get our GE, just in case.

edited to point out: if we want to be risky, we could build a library in St. Pete's and have it run a scientist for one or two turns. This could guarantee our GP would pop before Alex's, but would run the risk of a scientist popping instead of an engineer, which would be pretty much disastrous (an academy in Moscow wouldn't hurt anything, but it would still suck hard). Just food for thought, if we want to be risky. Two turns of a scientist would put us ahead of Alex's engineer and equate to less than a 10% chance of getting a scientist.

If we do lose the HG then I think the Great Library, in Moscow or somewhere else, is a no brainer.

Finally, war with Gandhi. I agree it must be done. It's a shame since Gandhi is so pacifistic, he can be such a nice trading partner, but we must consolidate our hold on our island. Three chariots should do it, four to be safe, or two axemen, three to be safe. We will be able to start hooking our copper up in nine turns, just after the barracks are done in St. Pete's, meaning we can choose between whatever we want. I say chariots in St. Pete's, axes in Novgorod, with Moscow not worrying about the war effort and instead focusing on growth and getting a priest. It could also contribute a work boat for Novgorod's fish, and if we do want it to contribute, then maybe a Trireme or four, to make sure that Gandhi doesn't mess with our own fish, would be worthwhile.

Be aware, though, that war with Gandhi is going to piss people off. Hinduism is at 17% influence at the moment. Judaism is still at 11%.

Sorry about the length of this but we're at a pretty crucial stage, I think.

Probably Gandhi has no contact with our Jews buddies, but has with some Hindu... he has not an his own religion.

I'd like to build the temple in Moscow, but i think it's better prioritize 2 settlers, to avoid wars.
Better use the galley to place them... btw the galley was there for fogbusting, the warriors just walked to where they are now.

For sure i don't like to burn a GE for HG, maybe for GL, we don't have marble.

I suggest to NOT pollute GP cities... i explain:
S.Pete is the GE farm, then no wonders other than HG and HS, specialist from forge, with Mids better run a citizen if we want avoid growth.
Probably Novgorod can be the GL city, then only scientists as specialists.
Same for Moscow, at least until we'll have the GP for our shrine.

More: absolutely not NE in the GL's city, you can easily pop 2 useless artists... probably we can build it in Moscow AFTER the GP.

Needless to say: GL with Mids count * 2

Agreed to revolt right now to rep.

The conquest... ehm the annexation of Calcutta it's not a priority... we can took it when we like, and i suggest when we'll be ready to conquer all India, and next should be Mao, with his GLH, but we'll need cats for that.

To define a long-term startegy, i think that 12 to 18 cities are what we need to launch before 1900, for a diplo (with our own votes) let's wait to better know the map.

With the rate of wonder construction and considering we'll likely not be the first to get math, I doubt we'll get HG without busting an engineer on it. I certainly wouldn't waste a GE on TGL, I don't even think it's that great a wonder to begin with. All it gives is 2 free scientists and 8cpt, and it expires with scientific method.

I've never even built it in a game, except on settler level where I was in extreme builder mode. Maybe I'm really missing some hidden value here.

Given the choice between the two, I'd definitely spend it on the HG, which never expires, gives us more GE points (GEs we can apply to other wonders, like the UN) +1 health in all cities, +1 pop in all cities (both of which will help us toward a diplo victory), and never expires. (not to mention the incredible cultural pressure it will put on Sparta, which may in fact have the GW in it.)

Obviously I'm biased toward engineers, maybe because I am one. However, I just feel HG is more useful to us if we have to make a "one or the other" decision.

I might be able to be convinced to run a couple turns of scientist in St Pete if it helps us beat Alex to the GE.

Nice this exchange of opinions.
I find a waste burn a GE for more GE points, and aside this HG is not that great wonder, we already are expansive, so health is not a problem (or a minor one).

OTOH GL (and we lack marble) gives to us +12 beakers/turn (Pyramids, remember?) for an half of the game, plus GS points (8/turn *2, 'cause we are... i forget, anyway we double GP points and still gives 2*2 when obsolete) and a GS can research almost all education, to help our cheap universities.

And don't even imagine Sparta can flip, with a wonder in there.
If you are not convinced about GL (but i consider it one of the best wonders), i'd prefer to burn a GE for a tech, machinery or the most part of engineering if we prefer to wait.

EDIT: if Sweetacshon doesn't post a "got it" by 10.00PM GMT, he will skip his TS, then BrianS will be "up"

Great job on getting the Pyramids BLubmuz.

I think I'm coming down in the camp to burn the GE on GL if it's still available. The AI tends not to prioritize HG, so I'd still try to get it but I'd build it instead of burning the GE.

Probably Gandhi has no contact with our Jews buddies, but has with some Hindu... he has not an his own religion.
Correct, Gandhi has no contact with our buddies (you can verify this on the diplo screen), but he definitely has contact with the Hindu founder, and I think it should be safe to assume that since he has at least one galley out and about, he has contact with others, who will not be happy with us when we DOW on him.

I'd like to build the temple in Moscow, but i think it's better prioritize 2 settlers, to avoid wars.
Hmm. Yeah, I agree with this. I'm particularly worried about Hatty; with Egypt's borders extending into our own, she will be looking to get on our island too, and that we cannot have. War with one person to kick them off our island is fine. War with two would be rough.

Better use the galley to place them... btw the galley was there for fogbusting, the warriors just walked to where they are now.
Okay, that makes sense. I was sure that there was some purpose to it, just hadn't thought of that.

For sure i don't like to burn a GE for HG, maybe for GL, we don't have marble.
I agree. Now that I look at it, I forget just how cheap the HG is. I rarely build it but it makes sense here: 450:hammers:, double with stone. Working all of our hammer spots in St. Pete's, that's 19 turns for construction from our 12:hammers: base construction in St. Pete's, less if we work overflow and whip. I've also noticed that the AI doesn't tend to prioritize it, but then again, with 17 rivals on the map, I don't think we should take any Wonder for granted.

I'm starting to lean toward TGL being the better use of our GE, so long as Alex doesn't steal it (I doubt Alex has Literature by the time his GE pops, so he will likely use it on the Parthenon or the ToA if they're still available, or perhaps the Colossus.

I suggest to NOT pollute GP cities... i explain:
S.Pete is the GE farm, then no wonders other than HG and HS, specialist from forge, with Mids better run a citizen if we want avoid growth.
I agree in general, and I'm not suggesting polluting them all the time, but if we're racing for our first GE with Alexander, and we're afraid that he will beat us to a Wonder that we want, then it might make sense to pollute just a little bit as a tactical move. I'm not saying, do it for sure, I'm just saying that we might want to keep it in the back of our head.

We'll know more after we get Alpha and see what techs Alex has to play with.

Probably Novgorod can be the GL city, then only scientists as specialists.
Agreed, if we build the GL, it should go in Novgorod.That would mean that all three cities we have so far would have good culture, and unpolluted GP pools.

Same for Moscow, at least until we'll have the GP for our shrine.
Agreed. We absolutely must not pollute Moscow's GP pool until we have a prophet. If we build a library, we need to make sure we keep diligent watch over it so that no science specialists are placed.

More: absolutely not NE in the GL's city, you can easily pop 2 useless artists... probably we can build it in Moscow AFTER the GP.
This makes sense, if we feel the need for it at all. I presume we'd want to be running science specialists in Moscow with the hope of popping as many great scientists as possible.

Needless to say: GL with Mids count * 2
Yeah, it always seems a shame if you get the mids and don't go for the GL. That free +12 research is so big, especially early. To put it in perspective, our total research right now is only 15:science:. The GL would almost double that.

I think I'm leaning strongly toward using the GE for the great library.

Maybe I'm really missing some hidden value here.
Well, the 2 scientists is huge, espeically with the Representation synergy: +12:science: per turn is the equivalent of two additional gems squares at 100% research. And for a philosophical leader like us, it gives a free +16GPP per turn, four times what any other Wonder can give us. Yes, it's scientists and not engineers, which mitigates their usefulness somewhat, but scientists are still useful, too. I would rather have 1 engineer than 1 scientist, but I would rather have 4 scientists than 1 engineer.

The HG costs 450:hammers:, halved with stone, is generally considered low priority for the AI, and while the +1:health: that never expires is useful, we are already expansive, so it's a drop in the bucket (happiness is a more pertinent concern). We have a pretty good chance of building it straight-up with hammers in St. Pete's. TGL is 525:hammers: halved with marble, which we don't have, and is generally much higher priority than HG for the AI, meaning we probably don't have a chance in hell of getting it any way other than with a GE.

Shoot for the moon, right?

Okay, never let it be said I'm not a reasonable man. You've all made very good points about the great library, and I'm sold. We'll spend the GE there. The +12 beakers is only good as long as we stay in rep, but I doubt if we're changing to anything else for a while.

Should we then plan on building the University of Sankore in Novgorod for then the GL expires?

Another thing I figured out about my bias against GL is a carryover from civ3. My learning from that game was that it became a crutch for people who couldn't trade well, and I stopped building it, ever, ever since then. Old habits are hard to break.

We should still try to whip/build the HG in St. Pete, though. :D

OK... I am back, and you guys are still setting a cracking pace ;) Well done, indeed! I'll grab the save (you forgot to post the link, Muz - but I'll grab it from the results page) and report back.

Can someone give me a quick tute for a HoF mod noob, please?

Hi Sweetacshon,
i was thinking you was lost in some desert...

let me understand: you are new to HOF and need some hint?
not much to say, it just keeps track of reloadings and so on, aside this it has some helpful functions, just flag what you like, i suggest:

- the autolog (eventually de-flag some option) i use HTM, but it's my taste;
- the turn counter (actual t./max t.) let the first turn =0
- the most useful is the foreign advisor: precious for trading techs and resources

but just take a look, it's nothing complicate...

for the game... well, just take a look at this page and to the last post in the previous, i think not much can be added... just a good luck, and be care

Well, all this strategy talk is great, but I think I've identified what I want to achieve in this TS. Firstly:

we have 4 warriors, 3 are fogbusting
2 workers
1 galley
we are building a temple and 2 barracks


I just think we're leaving ouselves a little open here, so the first two things to do are to get a settler out to that nice spot in the NE before Hatty does. This will be whipped in St Petes. Next we'll want at least one unit in each city, and enough to fogbust... well that's probably only 1 more right now. The new city will need a workboat, which will probably also come from StP.

The temple is important for the shrine/ money, but really all cities need lighthouses, as the land is not so great for food. Novgorod will slip in a lighthouse now, as it is the most hopeless food case we have. Also, a barracks here doesn't make a lot of sense right now, as the hammers are a bit low.

I think our scouts should be our missionaries, and after the temple, Moscow will make one of these. If there is nothing better to build, we should keep pumping them out. The trouble is that we are light on ships as well, so I'll try and fit one in somewhere. We don't want to make the same mistake as sgotm2 where we didn't explore sea AND land.

OK, so I'm kind of disregarding the long term plan for the moment (apart from the temple) - does anyone have issues before I play... in about 12 hrs??

..oh yeah, I'll try and remember Representation ;)

All I'll say is be careful you don't whip St. Pete down so far it can't build the HG in time. Also, I assume you're going to build chariot or axemen, and not warriors?

As I previously said, moving from the forest to the crab at St Pete will cut the growth time in half, and take two turns off alphabet.

As far as the HOF mod is concerned, I just turned everything on. I use BBcode for the log though, as not everybody has HTML code enabled in the forums (like me for example)

Sweetacshon, I agree with your thoughts about getting settlers out quick. I think we're not that weak on military and would prefer not to build too many more warriors as we should be getting chariots/axes out soon. We do have enough military to place in each city. I think I saw one of our guys in Gandhi's city, so he's also available to act as MP. Otherwise, I'm in synch with your plan.

EDIT: I also agree with Merum's comment to not whip St Pete too much. We do want HG there and will need working citizens to get it.

Good thoughts sweets. To augment my own:

Novgorod can probably pump out its own WB to speed things up. Even at size 1 it has 5 hammers, and that will be 6 once its cultural borders expand (in 5 turns) and we get a mine up on the copper. Once it has a WB i'd imagine Novgorod will be our primary military production site, at least while St. Pete's is building the HG. At Size 4 it will be able to crank out 14:hammers: per turn with a food surplus of 1. A lighthouse there is also not a bad idea, and we might also want to think about a library, since we're talking about Novgorod as our site to build the GL.

A settler out of St. Pete's is good, allows us to keep working or whip our temple in Moscow. I'm not worried that Gandhi settled on our island (he actually did us a favor in so doing as I see it), but I'm scared that Hatty will make a move soon, and that would truly suck. Hatty could easily be +10 to us very soon.

I agree with missionaries as scouts, and to convert any heathens we might encounter ;) (overall religion influence is still less than 40%). As I said in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure we're the only team in this SGOTM playing Warlords that founded an early religion (this is evident from the culture graph on the progress/results page - at least one team playing Vanilla, Murky Waters, seems to be mirroring our strategy so far to some extent). At least a couple of others either founded confucianism or have built a Wonder (it's hard to tell), but we got an enormous head start on the culture graph, and a big head start in that our religion spread to 4 other civs in the BC years. Leveraging that in any way that we can will give us a very nice advantage in the laurels race.

I was busy yesterday, so i'm on line now after my last post.

I probably build one settler in S.Pete and another in Moscow, perhaps use the whip, but loosing only 1 people.
Then the temple in Moscow, to put a priest at work, hope to trade for Math and start an aqueduct in S.Pete.
This way we'll have filled our island.
Some chariot and axes can be produced in city 3, with a WB somewhere.

No more warriors, please, we have all what we need for MP and fogbust.

The galley shoud be used to ferry settlers, or they'll walk for ages with all that jungle.
When the galley will be free of ferry duties, we'll can use it to transport a scouting missionary somewhere.

I think some of this will go after Sweetacshon's TS.
i repeat our city plan:

settler for white city has to be ferried, the one for green city can walk

Another help, please:
I've seen in your SS a dialog to ask for the SS name... i take SS using the "stamp" key, but never seen a dialog... how does it works?

:sad: Well, I am a little unhappy with myself for this TS, and that's what I get for being away when plans are formulated and jumping in the deepend. Basically I was drooling so much over the city site that I didn't follow the plan. Many apologies. You'll see my other questionable decisions in the spoiler.

IT 640BC

Point taken about Gung Ho whipping, but Hatty scares me too. Switch to workboat and settler, some MMing.

125 625BC
Alex wants open borders. Sure thing, mate. He only has 2 cities, btw. I nudge science up to 80% - 21 turns til Alphabet.

126 610BC
Mr Confusion, Mansa Musa comes to say hello. He has 3 cities, and is mid table.

127 595BC

128 580BC
Whip the settler

129 565BC
Judaism spreads to Ravenna... it's Julius Caesar!! Hopefully he'll convert too. Whip the temple at Moscow... it was about to pop into unhappiness anyway.

130 550BC
Caesar converts to Judaism... way to go!!
And here is Vicky... 5 cities!! A bhuddist, but not the founder.

131 535BC
MM wants us to cancel treatys with our friend HC. Go away, Confusion dog! Now he's annoyed.. time to beef up the defences, I think. I remember to switch to Representation 3 turns late.

132 520BC
zzzz

133 505BC
JC is getting closer.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1417/civ4screenshot0015mp7.jpg
Rostov is founded, and a lighthouse started.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6343/civ4screenshot0017zv0.jpg

134 490BC
zzz

135 475BC
Copper is hooked up.. woot! Who wants salad? Saladin is here, 3 cities, no religion... yet. He is second last.

136 460BC
Salad wants open borders... ok.

137 445BC
Whip the lighthouse in Moscow... hmm.. that really is enough whipping for now.

138 430BC
Washington arrives, no religion, 3 cities, and at the bottom, like us. MM wants open borders again... umm, no.. actually, yes, if he spreads his religion, it'd be nice. I notice he has alphabet (the only one) and almost all lower end techs.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2118/civ4screenshot0016zf8.jpg

139 415BC
Salad converts to Confusionism

140 400BC
zzzzzzz

Autolog
Turn 124 (640 BC)
Novgorod begins: Work Boat
St. Petersburg begins: Settler
St. Petersburg begins: Settler

Turn 125 (625 BC)
Contact made: Malinese Empire

Turn 126 (610 BC)

Turn 127 (595 BC)

Turn 128 (580 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Settler
Novgorod's borders expand
Contact made: Roman Empire
Judaism has spread: Ravenna (Roman Empire)

Turn 129 (565 BC)
Moscow grows: 4
Moscow finishes: Jewish Temple

Turn 130 (550 BC)
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
Contact made: English Empire

Turn 131 (535 BC)

Turn 132 (520 BC)

Turn 133 (505 BC)
Rostov founded
Rostov begins: Library
Rostov begins: Lighthouse
Novgorod finishes: Work Boat
Judaism has spread: Rome (Roman Empire)

Turn 134 (490 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 3
St. Petersburg's borders expand
Judaism has spread: Arretium (Roman Empire)
Contact made: Arabian Empire

Turn 135 (475 BC)

Turn 136 (460 BC)
Moscow grows: 5
Novgorod grows: 2

Turn 137 (445 BC)
Moscow finishes: Lighthouse
Contact made: American Empire

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Moscow begins: Jewish Missionary

Turn 139 (415 BC)

Turn 140 (400 BC)



We are really hurting from the lack of worker techs, but Alphabet is in 6, so we'll have them soon enough. I didn't build any workers for this reason, but we'll have to build more very soon. As for the army, well it is still non existant. I was waiting on the barracks, both of which will be done in a few turns. Defence is a high priority next TS... the power graph is not pretty.

In hindsight, whipping without the benefit of farms is a mistake. The sea resources are fine, but it just seems a little slow. It was worth it for the settler, and perhaps we should produce another to fill the gap, but whipping the lighthouse was an error. Sorry, people.

Speaking of Rostov, you'll note it doesn't quite have the coastal trade.. I expected it'd join up, but it didn't, so Judaism didn't spread automatically. Anyway, the worker is roading toward it, so that'll be joined soon enough. The other worker has done all he can and is heading toward Rostov also.

The galley went for a trip toward china and is now returning for the missionary.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC0400_01.CivWarlordsSave

Well, that Rostov site is pretty tragic. We've lost a gem mine, which means a lot of beakers over the course of the game.

Nothing for it now, we'll just have to make the best of it.

Caesar worries me, he'll have praets soon he has praets already. We'll either need to take him off, or make real good friends with him.

I would have expected more civs to have alphabet at this point, let's hope that's not because they all went for math first. We should MM to get alphabet as soon as possible.

@ Sweetacshon
Nothing to complain about your TS, but ROSTOV!?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:
the worst site you could choose, big overlap with city 5, gems lost... i posted a map with city sites... why? and it was approved, too.

Sorry if i'm not so "diplomatic", but... bleahhhh.
We'll have to pay a mistake like this, laurels, adieu.

Noe i've seen why... for that damn fish... i suppose it's another GP farm (if we can manage to build something before 1500AD) and i hope the fish is not rotten.

I will download the save tonight and play. I can't open the save right now, but I will follow the strategy we have been discussing over the last couple of days.

After Alpha comes in, I plan to research IW. We need to mine the gems.

EDIT: Hmmmm, taking a closer look at the screenshots, I just saw the impact of Rostov on our proposed white city. Do we still want to build that city where originally proposed? I don't think there's a better place for it and we still need a city there. Any thoughts? I intend to whip a settler and get it there quickly as we need that space filled before Hatty moves in.

If you don't research math next, we'll lose the HG. Before you put a turn into either, try to trade for either of them.

@BrianS
Yes, there's no better spot for city 5 than the planned one, and i agree to speed up the settler, at all costs.

About Caesar: Praetorians are powerful, but a good ol' axe is enough to beat them.
This said, JC will be pleased if not friendly with us (soon he'll convert), also in warlords he's no more aggressive, so his melee units will NOT have the C1+another promotion.

But we can fear also archers, for now :(

from the last SS Sweetacshon posted, is it our island in the middle of a ring continent, or, at least in the middle of some continents arranged in a ring-way? remember something?

edit: Research ... crosspost with Merum...
agreed for Math, but let's see if we manage to trade for it... damn Mansa, how can he be so advanced? Oracle perhaps?

Thanks for the reminder on Math guys. I will prioritize it and try to work some good trades.

@BrianS
damn Mansa, how can he be so advanced? Oracle perhaps?

It's a well-known fact that Mansa cheats. :D

It was the fish, although not directly.. when the settler got there for some reason I just pressed settle because it picked up 4 resources... too quick to even think it was a mistake... even tho I'd studied the map.. bah... in any case, we could cottage spam it.... I dunno.

What has been said about trading before researching is a good point, as is settling up north, if only for security reasons, although the vacant islands just to the south shouldn't be overlooked.

Wow 4 out of 6 on line at same time... i forget: Brian are you English or American?

Sweeta, the settler shouldn't be there.
Anyway, what is done is done, i took it out enough in my #140, let's try to recover

this is buried, so i repeat:
Another help, please:
I've seen in your SS a dialog to ask for the SS name... i take SS using the "stamp" key, but never seen a dialog... how does it works?

edit:
thanks Sweeta for the help, yes Stamp=prtsc, i'll try
sorry Brian, i forget, thanks for the answer.

Damn... already currency??? what he got, 3 gold mines? are we sure we're on Monarch?

Sweeta, the settler shouldn't be there.

Well, that's what I said.

I use PrtSc, I assume it's the same key... I think assigning a name ingame is shift_PrtSc.

Blubmuz, I'm an American living in California.

Okay, I think the situation with Rostov may not be as bad as feared. With the fish it will make a credible GP farm. It stinks that we miss out on the gems, but in time it should still make for a credible city. I think that Rostov is now the better site for the Great Library, since it will easily be able to run the two Science specialists on top to get the most of the Library's 25% bonus. I would emphasize a Library there ASAP, even before the Lighthouse ... for the culture, in case religion is slow in spreading, and for the GL spot. Whip as needed.

I think the white dot city should stay where it is. It will need to poach Rostov's cows to work its second gem site and keep a food surplus. We will just have to deal with the overlap.

It's a little scary that Hinduism has 18% influence and yet we've only met one civ with it, Gandhi. My goodness, it takes some time to adjust to having 17 civs on the map.

5 civs that we've met so far are still running Paganism: JC, Victoria, Gandhi, Washington, and Huayna Capac. Trading Monotheism should fetch us the early techs we're missing (Agriculture, Archery, Meditation, Horseback Riding if we want it).

What's the call on trading away Alphabet? I know people tend to avoid trading it away unless they have to, but I have a feeling people are going to get it soon anyway. MM already has contact with HC, Washington, Saladin, Hatty, and who knows who else, and we all know he will trade it away. I am leaning towards going ahead and using it to grab IW and Math, if we can. Let me know if that's a bad idea. I'm sometimes on crack when it comes to tech trading.

Mao has math for sure. He also has Currency, because he has gold available for trade.

GE is due in St. Pete's in 22 turns. This makes me almost want to go for Literature next, instead of Math. Am I on crack here? Alpha in 6 turns, Literature in 18 with our current tech pace. Even as we pump up our tech pace with commerce, we're still barely looking to get Literature online by the time we have our GE to play with. I think, Literature first, hoping that we can trade for Math. Missing the HG is not a big deal in my opinion - we want it pretty much for the GE points and that's it, right? Missing the GL is a bigger deal, I think. Also, getting the GL online as soon as humanly possible will help us research other techs for trading.

Interestingly, our Great Prophet is due in Moscow in 22 turns as well. I think we need to get the GE first, which means one turn somewhere in there where we take off the Priest. 25 Turns later we get the shrine and the +11 (and counting) gpt for the shrine, after that the Great Library site will be pumping out scientists like a madman.

After Literature, maybe Music. It's a tech the AI almost never beelines to, we would likely grab a free artist (lightbulb if nothing else), and that should be good trade bait for Calendar, Construction, Currency, CoL, Metal Casting, Compass, and Monarchy.

On the foreign front, we will almost surely culture flip Arretium at some point, a shame since the site is, well, pretty much useless, but at least it gets us crabs. Coastal commerce I suppose, with 1 PH for minimal hammers. Who knows, maybe it will pop coal or aluminum or oil or something for the late game :D

Do we have plans for our Missionary-laden galley? Do we try to solidify our relations with someone like Hatty or JC by giving another of their cities religion? Or do we try to find a civ like Washington that doesn't yet have religion and convert them? I'm thinking we could send it North, past Hatty/HC's island, and find some heathen areas there. It's a good bet that to the West we'll find nothing but Hindus, and we have the immediate area to the E, SE, and SW covered, but to the N, I'm betting we can still find some people to convert.

Someone said before that Alex and Mao were likely to go to war soon. I don't think so. They're already mutually friendly, +8/+6. We are +8 with Hatty and will likely be +10 or better soon. Other relations are not that extreme, max of +4. Wow will that foreign advisor board be full once we've made contact with everyone :lol:

We should also be decent friends with JC in time since Rep is his favorite civic. Getting friendly with him should be a priority I think. Maybe gift him anything reasonable if he asks? He is a dangerous enemy but a powerful attack dog as a friend.

We're in fine shape still, I think. Once our cities are more developed and we get our war machine rolling, we should be able to catapult to powerhouse status.

Great post Civicide.

I agree we should trade alphabet in short time because once its researched by other civ it ll quickly spread all civs and we may end up getting nothing for it.

@BrainS
could you post the save after alphabet is researched. So we can see the trade possibilities and select best alternatives.

@Sweet
You did good except Rostov but dont worry about it can be good GP farm.

I think we should prepare a checklist like we did in SGOTM 2 for the active player. Man can easily forget simplest thing in this many and long posts.

Checklist should contain summary of all `agreed` ideas by team for the turnset.

For example this was my cheklist for a TS in SGOTM 2 summarized the ideas so far.
Here is a checklist for rest of my turns formed by ideas written so far...

1) Build Calvary in main produciton cities.

2) Trade Astronomy to KK for Divine Right, WM, and 220g. But he ll probably trade it to HC(They are Friendly or close to it i think) all teammates agree on this?

3) Start building and chaining galleons. I like this idea.

4) Capture Niani and direckt Bismarks attention to Phonecian.

5) MT for chemistry. I think we should make this trade.

Anything to add or edit?

I ll probably finish the turnset tonight or tommorow.

Approval of perugia as a team leader

Comments on your checklist.

1) Main production cities should build units, cavalry sounds good with the odd grenadier thrown in. Smaller prod cities should keep on with catapults. Osaka should switch to a cavalry.

2) I'm not sure about the Astronomy deal. I don't think Divine Right leads anywhere, KK's WM is pretty worthless so its basically Astronomy for 220g. Let's make KK and HC spend their beakers on it instead.

3) We do have some galleons so build just the right amount, no more. In SGOTM01 we had too many galleys.

4) Yes please

5) Yes

6) Follwing Merum & Sweetacshon's advice. Be sure cities are not building non-essential buildings. Also MM every few turns to ensure cities citizen placement matches their specialisation.

7) Workers
Are all resources improved?
Are there any unimproved grassland tiles that can be improved to match city specialisation?
Are there forests we can chop that will not damage health?
Are there jungles we can chop to improve health and make the tile useful?
Are roads from main produciton cities to muster points as short as possible?
Are any remaining marginal worked tiles improved eg plains/tundra/desert hill?

I've got the save and am preparing to play. Here's the plan:

1. Rostov: Change Lighthouse to Library

2. Satisfy all competing research interests (this should be easy :lol:, especially at our current research rate):a. Need Math right away for HGb. Need Iron right away for Gemsc. Need Lit right away for GLib3. Allow barracks to compete, then axes and chariots. St. Pete to start aqueduct asap.

4. Rush Settler at Moscow for white city (immediately swap to Settler in Moscow, then whip next turn);

5. Settle Settler White Settlement

6. Worker Improvements: Two workers are on opposite sides of island roading towards top. There's not much else they can do before IW comes in. I'm think of taking the eastern worker down to Moscow and have him build a farm or cottage on the floodplain. We don't have pottery now, but will likely get it soon through trading. Query whether to build farm or cottage? This city has no hammers so needs the whip for production which suggest a farm. A farm will also help it support more specialists. On the other hand, I can never resist cottaging a flood plain.

7. Spread the good word. Not ready to commit a plan for this yet. Let's see what the world looks like when I get the chance.

Alpha comes in 6. I will play and then post an update. At that point, I'll decide whether to wait for further input. If the choices are clear based on the discussions we've had to date, I'll probably just go.

On the topic of posting plans, I'm all for plans and ongoing discussion, but I do not want to get too rigid about this. It is for fun after all -- wait a minute -- you guys aren't getting paid are you?

And I leave you this parting shot of the known world in 400BC

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5522/sgotm3world400bcmediumxr8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Inherited turn:

Rostov: Switch Lighthouse to Library. Excellent, it will be built in only 135 turns! :sleep:

Moscow: Switch Missionary to Settler. If not for the whip, it would be due in 17 turns. This is a breakneck pace. I hope I can keep up with events in this game!

Watch out, change of mind coming. Oh, I hope I don't regret this. Moscow only has 4 citizens. If I MM it, I can grow another in 3, but not if I'm building a settler. OK, so I will let it grow first, then swap to settler and whip it out. As it is, the galley is 4 turns away from Moscow. Since galley is quickest way to get settler to white settlement, I need to wait for it anyway.

IBT: Temple of Artemis is BIAFAL. Hoo boy.

Turns 1 and 2: Zzzzzz

Turn 3: Moscow grows. Switch Missionary to Settler.

Turn 4: Can't whip settler yet (requires 4, only have 2). MM cities to allow Alpha to come in next turn.

Turn 5: Alpha is in. Still can't whip Settler (requires 3, can only whip 2). I'm glad I let the Moscow grow before starting settler. Now here's an interesting picture:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6744/sgotm3foreignadvisor325ud5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I don't think Vicky and Sally like us too much. Hmm, how are relations?

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2277/sgotm3relations325bclarlc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Ooohhh! This makes me dizzy.

I've augmented both of the above screenshots with religious indicators. Also, on the trading screen I've posted the relative score position of our buddies. I have a tendency to start trading with the least of my friends and work my way up towards the more powerful.

So, what kind of offers can we get?

Alex doesn't see how a deal for IW is possible. However, he will offer:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2083/sgotm3alex1325bcmediumvz1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

JC offers this trade:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/473/sgotm3jc2325bcmediumbv3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

He'll do the same for IW, but so will Hatty (who doesn't have Math):

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7817/sgotm3hatty1325bcmediumbg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

HC will give us this:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1773/sgotm3hc1325bcmediumkm0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We can also get Agriculture from Washington for Monotheism, which, while not fair, I'm inclined to do.

So, this is some pretty good trading. Boy I sure was smart to recommend an early religion strategy so that we had some good trading buddies. Oh wait a minute, that wasn't me. Oh yeah, I was advocating against an early religion. Why does anyone listen to me???? :confused:

Notwithstanding my not so great recommendations about religion, I propose making the trades above. Waddayathink?

This will free us up to start researching literature, which no one else seems to have!

I've posted an interim save in case anyone wants to check it out for themselves.

Mid-Turn Save - DON'T EVEN THINKING OF PLAYING THIS (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC0325_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Do it. Make sure you get the math and IW trades first, just in case the relative values of techs go down. Priorities are obviously math, then IW, then whatever the hell else we can squeeze.

Then wait a turn, and see what else you can peddle around for what.

Looks like we can be in a pretty good way after this turnset. Great job, Brian.

Yep, the trades seem good to me.

We have a lot of happiness and health, so we (I ;)) should probably ease up on the whip now to get pops up. I notice Qin has a size 10er!!

If Rostov is hgoing to be a GPfarm, then we should probably get some cottages around Moscow, although farming the fp, cottaging the grass, and possibly cottaging over the fp later is an idea (but a bit wasteful on worker turns). Speaking of which, we'll soon need more workers for all the jungle/ gems.

As for the missionary, send him NE I guess.. Hatty and Alex are both in OR, so probably no need to spread to them right now. Lets see if we can find Izzy!! :devil:

Wow, Julius doesn't even have Mysticism yet? Heh. Let's make the trades for Math and IW that you suggest, then wait and see what we can get for the worker techs next turn. Julius will be happy to give us some of the worker techs in exchange for polytheism, meditation, and priesthood, none of which are particularly damaging for him to have.

Let's NOT do any trading with Alexander, since he has a GE coming up. Giving him Writing is like a free pass for giving him the HG. We can get agriculture elsewhere.

I think I underestimated how long it will take to get that Library up in Rostov, unless we get Judaism there soon. Ouch. Nevertheless once we grab IW we can have that Worker build a farm over the rice at least. I would recommend building the farm directly since there's quite a chance the jungle would regrow while we build it. Still, since nobody else has Literature we should be in pretty good shape to wait to build it in the city we want to build it in.

Man, I'm not used to having this many trading partners. This game is gonna be wild...

Since you're playing when i'm deeply sleeping, i'm here...:p
DO IT!
But it's right to trade the main techs (math and IW), then wait a turn, unless you can trade a cheap tech for a similar one (HC).
Or if JC can add archery or agri to math

your SS are great, no need to open the save :goodjob: .

I'd like too to cottage the FP near Moscow

I agree with you trade proposals but we can get meditation from Hatty with IW for Alphabet.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1200/civ4screenshot0001ga2.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0001ga2.jpg)

Real life intervened and I wasn't able to complete my turnset last night. I'll do so this evening. Thanks all for your comments. I'll review them again carefully before starting the trading.

@ Civicide sez: Let's make the trades for Math and IW that you suggest, then wait and see what we can get for the worker techs next turn

I think we should do as many trades as possible on this first trading turn. After we trade Alphabet to even a couple more civs (which will be necessary to get IW and Math) we'll see diminished trade opportunities the next turn.

TURN 5 (cont)
Let the trading begin

Julius Caesar gave us Math for Alpha
Hatty gave us IW and Med for Alpha
HC gave us Pottery for Poly
Washington gave us Archery/Agriculture for Monotheism

I think we got all we could:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7699/sgotm3aftertrading325bccv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We have iron b/t Rostov and St Pete. It's within our cultural boundary but not within any city's BFC. Note: We've climbed a bit in score, FWIW.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3968/sgotm3iron325bcmediumxs4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

TURN 6: Start worker farming rice S of Rostov. Gandhi will give us Calendar for IW, Alpha and Priesthood. I decline. We won't need our sole calendar resource anytime soon (spices), and when we do we can certainly get it cheaper from a friend.

TURN 7: Zzzzz

TURN 8: JC asks us to cancel deals with Gandhi. I wavered on this one but didn't do it as we're passing through Gandhi's land at the moment. This may have been a poor decision.

St Pete: Axe>Aqueduct (14)

TURN 9:
Novgorod: Axe>Chariot (4)
Settle Axe in Novgorod.
Can finally whip Settler in Moscow for 2 pop. Without whip, settler due in 9.

TURN 10:
JC asks for OB and I give it to him.

TURN 11-14: Zzzz

TURN 15: Yaroslavl (the famed White City) is founded.

Here's where I was headed:

Galley is in Novgorod. I was planning to take it Moscow to pick up missionary there (which is due in 4 turns).

The aqueduct in St Pete is due in 4. I'd start the HG as soon as it comes in.

The library in Rostov is due in 120 turns. It still has only 1 pop, but a worker is slowly clearing the jungle and building a farm on the rice. Whip the lib when you can and that should hopefully be about the time we get a GE for the GLib (if we're lucky).

We need more workers. Also need more Axes/Chariots. Novgorod is our military production city. That's all I'd build there for a while.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_BC0175_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The autolog (covering only part 2 of my turnset):

Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Archery!

Turn 148, 280 BC: Judaism has spread in Bangalore.

Turn 149, 265 BC: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on Jewish Missionary.
Turn 149, 265 BC: Hatshepsut adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 150, 250 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 151, 235 BC: Hatshepsut converts to Confucianism!

Turn 152, 220 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 152, 220 BC: Sir Alexander Mackenzie (Great Merchant) has been born in Beijing (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 153, 205 BC: Alexander adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 153, 205 BC: Christianity has been founded in Shanghai!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Yaroslavl' has been founded.

Could this be the roster?

Sweetacshon
BrianS
Doom Train (UP)
Civicide
Blubmuz

Turn 151, 235 BC: Hatshepsut converts to Confucianism!
Turn 153, 205 BC: Christianity has been founded in Shanghai!

Two problems for us. I'm not sure how we can improve things other than by spamming missionaries, which we just don't have time for right now. Mao is the biggest threat, of course. We might want to concentrate our efforts on one of his neighbors and get them angry at each other.

Good TS, Brian, pity for the conversions, but we can do nothing about them.
BrianS' roster seem a bit ehm, confused :crazyeye:
Sweeta swapped with Civ and me, so i think this is correct (if you agree, do nothing, if not post a new one):

Roster:
Doom Train (up)
Merum (on deck)
Sweetacshon
Civicide
Blubmuz
BrianS (rest)

I think there's not much to do in next TS, just improve the land, then we need workers.
And we need some more military unit for defence.

What about res. Construction after Literature and prepare to invade China before longbows?
an holy city, but mainly the GLH make it our best target, and 3 galleys would be sufficient to ferry our troops ... India can wait

edit, after Brians' #166
yes, priest is nothing, a conversion can help

Gandhi can certainly wait. Attached is an interesting screenshot. Maybe see if he'll convert for nothing.

Frankly Calcutta is in a weak spot. No gems that Novgorod doesn't already have access to, zero possibility for production, just some clams and measley rice. Particularly if Mao converts to Christianity soon (and I'd be surprised if he didn't) we can attack him without really making anyone else mad. He is the biggest threat (way ahead on score), his cities are plum, and he has the GLH. However he doesn't seem that strong militaristically, so we can put a dent in him without too much trouble.

Also, I was wrong about culture flipping Arretium it seems. Too much ocean between Moscow and it for the cult. borders to extend that far. No great loss though.

I agree, we need workers and an army. Novgorod can make the army. Moscow can make the workers. St. Pete's can work on its pretty project, while pooping out an engineer that should eventually make it to Rostov, one can hope.

Also, we need to get a priest working in Moscow again. We are 43 turns away from our GP there (after the engineer pops from St. Pete's). If we're not careful we will overwhem the priest's points with GPP from the great library and won't get our priest until GP #3. We need to get that shrine up and running to get our research rate back up.

Sucks to lose Hatty to Confucianism like that, with her and MM allied, that could be a rough duo to keep on top of - hatty getting big, MM feeding her with techs. We'll have to do what we can. Expansion via pointy stick should help.

Nice TS.

okay i ll play in weekend. Probably Saturday so post your suggestions until then.

I support the suggestions to research construction and prepare for war with Mao. I also like the idea of converting Gandhi, even at the cost of Priesthood, which is a giveaway at this point.

I wonder if we should try to get a settler on that peninsula to the south. It will give us a beachhead in China, and give Mao something to distract him from the home islands during the war. We shouldn't war on him until he switches from Judaism, though.

Also, with "no razing" on, any city we place will go exactly where we want it, while any city we take we have to live with the AI placement.

I was thinking the same thing. There are many benefits, I agree, but still, our economy is hurting at the moment anyway, and our cities are busy without having to crank out another settler. Something to file into the memory bank for sure, though, if the site stays open for long.

Settle on the peninsula is not a bad idea, but we must have:
- our land improved (partially, of course) and a decent economy, that place is far (maintenance costs)
- our island and its coasts well defended (triremes)
- an half of the army we need to take Mao (and don't forget he's protective, then a lot of cats) 8 cats, 4 swords + 3 axes if he got metal, 2 spears if he got horses, 2 archers to keep the cities. total: 19 units... better start build (police state at some time? )
- 2 galleys to ferry the settler and 3 good units
- 1 more galley to complete the "ferry force"

by that time, i guess that peninsula will be crowded
and... don't worry when we'll be ready to DoW Mao will be Christian (and hope he doesn't arrives to longbows too soon)

Okay it seems it will not be an eventfull turnset. Here is a checklist. anything to add?

- Convert Gandhi to Juda by giving priesthood

- Contruction after literature

- Worker at Moscow

Only thing I would add is, see if we can get a priest going in Moscow again.

Okay i completed my turnset i may have miscalculated turns and made some mistakes...

Turn 1: Converted Gandhi to Judaism by giving him priesthood.
Turn 2 : Science slider decreased to %50.

Turn 3: Saladin canceled OB with us.

Turn 4: Axeman trained in Novgorod started another one.

Turn 5: Missionary completed in Moscow 1 turn left fot it to Grow so i am queing library the start worker after growth. St.Pete completed Aqueduct started HG. Missionary is goin to scout Chinese lands(Since we are planning to declare war on them).

Turn 6: Worker completed far and will go to gems near white city. Moscow growed so production changed to worker also added priest as a specialist.

Turn 8: Wilhelm Schikard(GE) born in St.Pete.

Turn 9: Novgorod started another axe. Research for construction is started.

Turn 14: GL built in far away land:(

Turn 15: Moscow completed worker...

- I m suprized that Mao hasnt converted to Christianity yet.

- Since GL is built by another civ we need to re-evaulate our plans for Rostov

- HG is 7 turns away.

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_AD0020_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Roster:
Merum (up)
Sweetacshon (on deck)
Civicide
Blubmuz
BrianS
Doom Train (rest)

Turn 155 (175 BC)
Judaism has spread: Neapolis (Roman Empire)

Turn 156 (160 BC)

Turn 157 (145 BC)
Novgorod finishes: Axeman

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Novgorod begins: Axeman
Moscow finishes: Jewish Missionary
St. Petersburg finishes: Aqueduct
Novgorod grows: 4

Turn 159 (115 BC)
Moscow begins: Library
St. Petersburg begins: The Hanging Gardens
----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 159 (115 BC)
Moscow grows: 5
Judaism has spread: Walata (Malinese Empire)
Judaism has spread: Hastings (English Empire)

Turn 160 (100 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker
St. Petersburg grows: 6
Rostov grows: 2

Turn 161 (85 BC)
Wilhelm Schickard (Great Engineer) born in St. Petersburg

Turn 162 (70 BC)
Tech learned: Literature
Novgorod finishes: Axeman

Turn 163 (55 BC)
Research begun: Construction
Novgorod begins: Axeman

Turn 164 (40 BC)

Turn 165 (25 BC)

Turn 166 (10 BC)
Novgorod finishes: Axeman
Christianity has spread: Rostov

Turn 167 (5 AD)
Novgorod begins: Axeman
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 168 (20 AD)

Yuck. Sucks to lose the Library like that. Too bad. Literature got spread around quickly, I guess. Part of me wishes we hadn't been so free with Alphabet now, but we took the risk. Had we decided to build somewhere else, we would have gotten it, too :( (could have pre-built the library). I feel partially responsible for that. Sorry.

Hopefully we get the gardens at least. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do with our GE now, though. Any ideas? I don't see any Wonders in the immediate future that we would get all excited about, except for perhaps the Colossus. Chichen Itza in Moscow maybe? Or we could save him to lightbult Machinery.

Good TS, Doom
pity for the GL, but i never seen it so soon (Mansa?)
yes, probably we could have built a library in novgorod (or whatever is the copper city), but i repeat, i've NEVER seen the GL completed in the BC years.

I suggest to spare our GE for another wonder, or for machinery: for now, let it sleep.

Yes it's strange Mao did not converted yet, but probably he guess it's better to keep good relations (improved AI, damn it was better play in Vanilla).

Plans for next TS: improve land, build barracks and libraries, build an army, explore with a trireme, possibly.

Ouch... yeah, alpha is a dangerous tech to spread for many reasons. The GE will keep, tho, we'll find a use for him.

One other thing.. keep building those missionaries. It's good to see our religion continue to spread.

On another topic, Blub and Civ, did you get whaled in Wotm4 (I think I saw you 2 post in the pre thread)? I certainly did.

Hi Sweeta
yes i tried WotM4, but quitted in disgust of my stupidity.
I can't say more without be spoilerish, i'll let you know.

I can say that the game itself is not lost, but my self-respect is, so i'll restart and not submit.

Stupid me, stupid me.

Back to our SG, i've not seen the save, but i suspect is MM to build the GL, so nothing to regret, he learned alpha long before us.

WOTM4 has gone amazingly smooth so far. I'm in 1397 and while I am considerably behind in tech, I am the point leader by a nice margin. Nothing too spoilerific, but let's just say that Praetorians with CR3 do surprisingly well against longbows :) I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop (it's Emperor difficulty after all) but so far it hasn't. Kind of amazing since I still get rocked on Monarch all the time :lol:

In our game, I don't see how MM could have built the library. Wasn't it 20 or so turns ago that he didn't have literature? I don't see how he could have that kind of production without a GE.

Speaking of which, did Alex get his GE pop that I predicted?

Posting my "got it". Post later, play tomorrow, probably.

EDIT: OK, so I fibbed a bit. I've come down with a wicked cold and the job came down with a vengeance today, too. My head is just not in the right space to be messing with a team game tonight (and I still have a conference call with the US at 8:30). I'm going to have to beg off til tomorrow, unless somebody has a real jones to play. If so, go ahead and grab it and play.

Sorry folks.

No problem we are not in rush.

Btw SGOTM 2 results are out and we are 10th out of 22.

Hi Merum
no problem, take care of your cold.
Is cold where you are? i guess for a texan a lot of places are cold, in other words... how is the weather in deep China?.

It would be nice if all us in next post will post the local time so i can easily see our differences... some confusion with time zones. (the post time is the local time, so just a simple difference)

here are 11.15 PM.

It's currently 6:30PM here in Texas. It's dark out but I'm going to drive home from work with the convertible top down :)

FYI, i will be gone from Dec 23 thru Jan 1 for the holidays. I should have access to a computer for some of this time, so I can post, but won't be able to play.

It's just after midday here, and I'm just about to go shopping for presents. Does everybody hate this as much as I do?

I'll also be OOP over new years... I'm not sure how long for yet, maybe up to a week. I should be able to post, tho.

So, 10th in sgotm2... pretty good, I say!! I think we'll be able to improve on that... although our score chart is a bit wonky so far ;) Let's hope the religious gaqmbit comes good!

It's 5:45 pm in California

Here in sunny Guangdong province it's 64 degrees F at 11:49 AM Wednesday (GMT +8). At about 23 degrees N latitude, (about the same as Havana, Cuba) you wouldn't think it would ever get cold, but boy, I can tell you that 60F sure feels cold once you're acclimated to the weather here.

Summer? Walking outside is like walking into a steam sauna.

Hi all,
it seems most of us is in "Xmas duties", so i propose first of all to "take it easy" about time, then if Merum can play his TS, the first with time can pick the save, and if there's the chance to have a feedback about the strategy to follow, play it.

when we back in a normal condition, post a new roster.

opinions???

just in case, :xmassign: :newyear: :xmascheers: to you all

and thanx for posting the times here we got 2c in the night

I agree, take it easy over the holidays, start fresh when everyone gets back. We're already fairly advanced, as far as turns completed, in relation to the other teams. :xmascheers:

Fair enough, of course CiV takes a back seat to RL (although some times it doesn't ;)), and there's no pressure to speed along.

In fact I'm looking forward to doing absolutely nothing for the next week or so, except eating seafood - you northern types probably wouldn't appreciate the joys of seafood xmas meals :p, and then of course there's the 4th ashes test starting boxing day... ahh.. summer. :cool:

OK then, we'll let it rest for a couple days. I'll probably play a turnset this week sometime, though, so if anybody has thoughts, feel free to share them.

I'm currently sitting in Taipei airport, waiting for my next plane. On my way to the land of the big cheeseburger for a couple weeks. :D

Let's wake the sleeping giant. Is anyone around? Frankly, I've forgotten what's happening :confused:

I'm here, I'm here. Just got back from vacation last night. I seem to remember something about impending war with Mao, that's about it.

Hi all
at least 2 (3 with me) out of 6 are still alive...
this looks like a sign-back-home thread... :)

war with Mao is in the plan, but not so close (pity)

anyway, Merum has the ball, would he play it?

still waiting, in the meantime a good 2007 to you all.

I ll be inactive in January and early February because of my final exams. So skip me until i get back.I ll probaby back in action around 15th February (just after graduating from university).

take care...

I'm back as well. Merum is up, but we might be catching him as he travels back to the awakening giant.

Hey guys, Checking in after the holidays. Still doing the airport shuffle (ugh!) so I'm not in position to play for a couple more days. Next guy up can swap with me if he wants.

OK, this was the roster:
Merum (up)
Sweetacshon (on deck)
Civicide
Blubmuz
BrianS
Doom Train (rest)
so it looks like I'm up. Perhaps Merum can be used as a pinch hitter (phh, what do I know about baseball, I'm Aussie) and we can just slot him in once a round whenever it's suitable for him, if he gives a few days notice. Does that work for everyone else?

Here are some ideas I grabbed from earlier posts:

- I m suprized that Mao hasnt converted to Christianity yet.
- Since GL is built by another civ we need to re-evaulate our plans for Rostov
- HG is 7 turns away.

Hopefully we get the gardens at least. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do with our GE now, though. Any ideas? I don't see any Wonders in the immediate future that we would get all excited about, except for perhaps the Colossus. Chichen Itza in Moscow maybe? Or we could save him to lightbult Machinery.

Plans for next TS: improve land, build barracks and libraries, build an army, explore with a trireme, possibly.

One other thing.. keep building those missionaries. It's good to see our religion continue to spread.

I'll take a look at the save, and post a plan.. and we should probably take a little longer on the plan for this one, considering the hiatus.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem for me to hold a regular place in the lineup, just travel schedules over the holidays combined with my rather nasty cold, which turned into pneumonia, shot things all to hell this time around.

Oh, right... getting a bit ahead of myself, then :) I hope you are over the sickness!?

A few issues:

We are researching construction. To what end? Cats are nice, but we aren't exactly ready to attack anyone except Ghandi's little settlement. What about music so we have something to trade? Currency for +1 trade route (+10gpt), CoL for courts (most maint's are up to 3), then CS for bureau, Calendar for plantations (probably not ready worker wise yet). Other suggestions?
Speaking of attacking Ghandi, he is now Jewish, so that's annoying, but we could feasibly take the city this TS.
Our economy is looking in a sorry state, 2gpt at 50%. We have 0 cottages, and only 3 workers with a mile of jungle. I'll try to get out 2 more workers. The GP for the shrine will take 35 turns.
Most of the land appears taken, which is to be expected with so many AI, so we need to keep scouting for.. umm.. potential acquistions. More boats and missionaries

Constuctions for cats is a must if we plan to attack Mao.
Probably we'll be beaten to music by the AI with GL, then it can be a waste.

We can use our GE for machinery or for the most of engineering, we can probably build the colossus in city3 (copper) in few turns.

Agreed about workers and cottages, we need both.

Merum, i hope you're out of your sickness, be care.

And best wishes to Doom for his final rush.

Music should still be good for trading, even if we don't have a monopoly.

Cats will be neccessary for Mao, I agree, but if we're only just running at 50% now, we certainly can't afford to take any of Mao's cities.. actually... just maybe... we have 35 turns until the GP, which will add maybe 8gpt?? By that time we can have cats and more of a navy and the iron hooked for swords, as well as some cottages in. Possibly we could go on the attack then, while researching toward CS. However I fear we will get behind in techs.

I vote to continue with construction. We can build our cat army while getting our economy in shape. But I'm saying this off the top of my head. I need to look at the save again, it's been awhile, and I won't be able to do that until this evening.

I agree with construction, it should allow us to roll over Mao. He is the fat target, and if I remember right, it was him that built the GLH. That will lessen the negative effects of taking his bigger cities.

We will also have gems online very soon, which will help us right our economy quite nicely.

I think the shrine will add more than 8 gpt. Maybe 10 or 12, though I'd have to look at the save. Between that, the gems, and the taking of the great lighthouse, we'll be able to fund ourselves nicely, and maybe catch up a little on the score graph without crippling ourselves.

Next plan is more galleys, both for ferrying troops and exploring, a couple more workers to start cottaging and chopping, and an army.

Someone should probably also calculate the rate at which we'll get our next engineer after we build the HG. Make sure that that it won't accelerate past our prophet in Moscow.

**there are pics thatshould be at the bottom, but I am running late.. fix it llater**

IT (168) 20AD
(169) 35AD
(170) 50AD
Scouting missionary finds Athens... after scouting the rest of china, we could add him here to cement judaism with Alex.
(171) 65AD
We meet louis, 4 cities and the Hindu capital, near the top of the table, and annoyed at us; and Monty - no religion yet, 5 cities, and very close to our score. There were no trading options worth mentioning.
(172) 80AD
The missionary sees the extent of China.. Mao has another settler heading south, so he'l follow , and head back to Athens.
(173)95AD
The Hanging Gardens!!! Phew, we just scrape in, 28 turns to GP, 31 to GE.
(174) 110AD
(175) 125AD
(176) 140AD
Monty wants OBs. "Well we were looking for a new attack dog, come in. That's a good boy."
(177) 155AD
During a MM clam for something trade offer, I notice he has about 7 techs we don't. it looks as though the tech carousel is running without us.
(178) 170AD
Mao finally converts to Christianity.
Last place Washington wants us to stop trading with Monty..umm.. no.
(179) 185AD
Athens is converted, but Mao has already slipped christ in there.
(180) 200AD
(181) 215AD
We meet Izzy, who is the prime Bhuddist (who else), with 5 cities, and of course she is annoyed.
(182) 230AD
The iron mine is completed, and now we can get down to business.
(183) 245AD
I sent a missionary to Rostov, the next one should go to Yaro, because we really need these 2 cities up and running.
(184) 260AD
Construction is in, I chose Calendar as a placeholder.

So what did I get done? 2 workers, 2 missionaries, and a galley. Oh, and the HG. It doesn't seem like much, really, but at least with 5 workers, we can get some cottages in. It disturbs me a little that it's 260AD and we still have no cottages.. granted, we have gems and are working the sea, but we should probably make a plan for our city sites.
Also, we really need granaries in all cities, and at least in StP we could whip, as at one tile being worked is only 1h1f. Basically our 2 unit cities were on wonder and missionary duty while the others caught up, sothe score graph is quite flat. I just feel we should keep those missionaries flying out, especially to those already Jewish. We certainly don't want Alex and JC turning on us. The immediate decision is whether to take that Indian city to the west. Ghandi is pleased with us.

Research, of course, is a bit slow. Here're the options:
Monty will do HR for Mono and Alpha
Washington will do CoL for construction and Alpha
HC gems for dyes
In fact, quite a few civs have currency now, so we can renegotiate our trades for cash.

Here is what we know of China.
Here is what we know of India. There is a missionary near Delhi, and a galley near Cumae.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 20 AD to 260 AD:


Turn 169, 35 AD: St. John (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 170, 50 AD: Hinduism has spread in Yaroslavl'.

Turn 174, 110 AD: Fifth Element has completed The Hanging Gardens!

Turn 176, 140 AD: Saladin adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 177, 155 AD: Mao Zedong converts to Christianity!

Turn 178, 170 AD: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 179, 185 AD: Judaism has spread in Athens.
Turn 179, 185 AD: Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land!

Turn 183, 245 AD: Judaism has spread in Rostov.
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 183, 245 AD: Gandhi adopts Vassalage!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_AD0260_01.CivWarlordsSave

I see I am next up in the order, unless we want to wait for Merum. I can play tomorrow if need be (it's 11:30PM Saturday night here) but I wouldn't mind a little discussion first.

Mao's longbows are worrisome. Actually, the proliferation of longbows all throughout the map is worrisome. How much progress do we really think we'll be able to make on Mao? We will need some serious numbers, and for now I think we shouldn't think about trying to take the capital (which has the GLH).

I think we should definitely trade for every tech we can get, particularly with lightweights like Alex and Washington.

We will get the prophet in 19 turns (the Engineer would have come in 22, so we were close on that but came out ok).

What's the plan here?

I made it, and the internet is finally working again. The earthquake in Taipei really threw communications into a cocked hat. My secretary told me it shook the factory here pretty good. Wonder who the rocket scientist was that thought it would be a good idea to route all 4 (yes there are only 4) transpacific data cables through the same area?

So, anyway, I'm back and am prepared to play within the next couple days, but I also think we need a new-years strategy discussion, based on what Sweets has found. Gonna go have a look at the save now.

** Sorry, here we go. **

Research, of course, is a bit slow. Here're the options:
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3821/civ4screenshot0022rd4.jpg
Monty will do HR for Mono and Alpha
Washington will do CoL for construction and Alpha
HC gems for dyes
In fact, quite a few civs have currency now, so we can renegotiate our trades for cash.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1081/civ4screenshot0023cj4.jpg
Here is what we know of China.
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3306/civ4screenshot0020gn9.jpg
Here is what we know of India. There is a missionary near Delhi, and a galley near Cumae.
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8339/civ4screenshot0021ph6.jpg

OK, I think Merum should play.. make hay while the sun shines, so they say. ;)

We really do need to discuss strat. All those longbows will require alot of cats, but what if he has maces by the time we get there?? It won't be long, I'd say, especially as Mao is the leader. Also, his capital is on the far coast, so it'll make things a bit tough, but not impossible. Also, do we take Shanghai or raze it? It's too close to Beijing to leave there in Mao's hands.

So, we can trade for CoL, and possibly move straight onto CS and machinery. It will take a while, tho. We may need to bribe others onto Mao, as well. Now that he is christian, we should try to get Alex angry.

Washington will also give us metal casting for con+alpha. MC is 1008 beakers to CoL's 783.

We also might consider using our GE to lightbulb a tech. Either use him now on MC, or get MC via trade and see what he will lightbulb next.

If Mao gets longbows, then we'll just have to bring more cats. not much else we can do about it. I wish Alex wasn't jewish, his two closeby cities are SUCH a tempting target...

Tis true, if we leave him be, he could convert to christianity. He and Mao are on good terms.

OK, I think Merum should play.. make hay while the sun shines, so they say. ;)
That works for me.

We really do need to discuss strat. All those longbows will require alot of cats, but what if he has maces by the time we get there?? It won't be long, I'd say, especially as Mao is the leader.
Yeah, I'm worried about that as well. If we're going to hit him, it needs to be sooner, rather than later.

Also, his capital is on the far coast, so it'll make things a bit tough, but not impossible. Also, do we take Shanghai or raze it? It's too close to Beijing to leave there in Mao's hands.
City razing is off, remember. Moot point.

So, we can trade for CoL, and possibly move straight onto CS and machinery. It will take a while, tho.
The more I think about it, the more I think I'm in favor of using our engineer to lightbulb machinery. That might be more worthwhile than any Wonder at the moment, and we will likely have another engineer before another really useful Wonder pops up.

We may need to bribe others onto Mao, as well. Now that he is christian, we should try to get Alex angry.

Mao is +3 to Alex (Pleased), but Alex is +7 to Mao (Friendly). The full list of civs that have mutual contact with Mao and ourselves are:

Hatshepsut (+1 Cautious) ... +4 Cautious to us
Julius Caesar (-1 Cautious) ... +6 Pleased to us
Gandhi (-1 Annoyed) ... +6 Pleased to us
Saladin (-2 Annoyed) ... -2 Annoyed to us
Louis (-1 Pleased) ... -3 Annoyed to us
Huayna Capac (0 Pleased) ... +9 Pleased to us
Alexander (+7 Friendly) ... +7 Pleased to us
Montezuma (+1 Cautious) ... +1 Cautious to us

Going to war with Mao won't really upset many people, but it will upset Alex. That's not that big of a deal, since Alex is not exactly strong, but he won't appreciate us declaring war on his bestest buddy.

Julius is certainly our best bet. He has a city on Chinese territory (Arpinum is right next to Xian), and we all know what he can be like in war. We have spare gems and he has none (and we will be bringing more online soon - we have 3 untapped that will be tapped before long).

Caesar will give 4 GPT for the gems. He only has 4 GPT. How do we feel about pulling the trick of gifting him GPT, and then trading back for it with the gems?

There are other civs that will give us gpt for our gems. It seems a shame not to take advantage of that. Look to trade GPT instead of resource-for-resource when we can, I would say.

In other news...

Currently, by my count, the Jewish shrine will mean a massive +17 GPT, which will currently allow us to break even at 80% research. We may want to run lower, though, to have cash on hand for bribing and upgrades.

Am I the only person that's nervous to still have Moscow defended only by a single warrior with Julius Caesar next door?

Caesar has 4 praetorians built in Rome. He's up to something.

France is looking scary at the moment. They have the Great Library, they are the Hindu founders (dominant religion, 19% to our 18% for Judaism) and have built the Kashi Vishwanath, and they have the Temple of Artemis for kicks and giggles.

Remember when we were all surprised that someone got the Oracle so quickly? It was the Aztecs. Who still have no religion. Poor bastards.

Athens has the Parthenon in addition to the Great Wall. I don't remember hearing about an engineer popping, but there must have been, and that has to be what he used it on. Athens will pump out great people at an insane rate now, with a philosophical leader, clams x3, (and cows too for kicks and giggles), and two wonders, one of which being the Parthenon. Alex has a heckuva GP farm set up. Too bad he has nothing else, lol.

We are behind on our whipping. Moscow is ready for the whip, as are St. Petersburg and Rostov. Rostov in particular needs it immediately. Novgorod could be whipped as well, but that's a bit dicier since there is so much commerce coming from there. We should certainly whip in Rostov, and probably use the overflow to build a Work Boat.

Once we hook up our cows, our Clams for Cows deal with Hatty will be moot. We could cancel it, but relations with Hatty are spotty at best now that Hatty is Confucionist. Maybe see who wants to trade for our excess cows?

Been a fascinating game so far. Looking forward to see what we can make with it.

Washington will also give us metal casting for con+alpha. MC is 1008 beakers to CoL's 783.
No question here. Take MC. And start a Forge in St. Pete's. That will give us an unpolluted 14:gp: engineer pool there, insane for this early in a game, pre-factories and ironworks. But do NOT allow the engineer to pop before our prophet.

We also might consider using our GE to lightbulb a tech. Either use him now on MC, or get MC via trade and see what he will lightbulb next.
I'm with you there. Engineers value Machinery above all, so if we trade for MC we can lightbulb it immediately, and then possibly use it to trade with people (though obviously not with dangerous civs that we think we might attack soon...) That will mean more than any Wonder. And we will have a new engineer before long there, anyway.

If Mao gets longbows, then we'll just have to bring more cats. not much else we can do about it. I wish Alex wasn't jewish, his two closeby cities are SUCH a tempting target...
If we attack Mao, Alex will be pissed with us. With any luck Mao will bring Alex into the war with him. This would be ideal as he doesn't really pose a threat to us, and we could likely stave off any attack with a navy (which we would of course have to build). Athens is an insanely tempting target, I agree.

...edit to add...

Here's an insane thought. We have a city with Christianity (Rostov). We could convert to Christianity, bribe Alex to follow us, then 5 turns later, convert back. What's the verdict on that? Crazy enough to work, or just stupid?

...edit again to add...

After Machinery, should we think about Engineering? If we can get it, grab the Hagia Sophia (faster workers and even more engineering GP points in St. Pete's), and use it again to trade, we would also gain pikemen and Trebuchets for use against Mao...

...okay, last edit, I promise...

The more I think on it, the more I think we should ignore Civil Service for the moment. Reasons include:

1) Bureaucracy will not really help us that much. Moscow is not setting the world on fire, and frankly never will. It will have decent commerce once we cottage up the river around it and work the spices, but those cottages won't develop for some time, and it will never be a good production city. We will be better off running Vassalage once we get Feudalism.

2) Trading for MC and lightbulbing Machinery will allow us to trade for, hopefully at the very least, Feudalism, Currency, CoL, and Drama. Once we do that we can focus our research on Engineering and Guilds, giving us Knights and Trebuchets to better combat all of these Longbows. Macemen aren't really that much better than Swordsmen when attacking cities, and if we come up against Macemen ourselves, we will have Knights and the potential for Xbows to defend against them.

3) Since we will have a very powerful shrine, we would do well to grab a Market and Grocer in Moscow for an additional 10gpt or so. Guilds is worth more money to us than CS is. And of course it leads to Banking, which is again an absolute necessity when you have a powerful shrine.

4) The techs that lead out of CS (Paper to Printing Press/Education/Liberalism/Economics) don't really help us with what our immediate focus should be, war with MAo. The techs that lead out of Guilds/Engineering (Gunpowder, Chemistry, Steel) most certainly do.

I know that people default to grabbing CS as soon as possible, for macemen and Bureacuracy, but I don't see a great deal of benefit in them right now. Does anyone else agree?

Thanks, Civ, thats just the analysis we needed, but I certainly haven't had time for. :hatsoff:

Research - I'm fine with the plan to trade for MC, lightbulb machinery, and research by hand eng (unless there are more trades possible, of course). The only point is:
4) The techs that lead out of CS (Paper to Printing Press/Education/Liberalism/Economics) don't really help us with what our immediate focus should be, war with MAo. The techs that lead out of Guilds/Engineering (Gunpowder, Chemistry, Steel) most certainly do.
Let's not lose sight of our long term goals and the winning conditions, where these techs will be valuable. Also CoL will be needed after taking the chinese cities to keep maint down.

Whipping - damn, I was only really looking at the libraries up north until after my turns. Can I suggest we keep the next round of whips for forges, but also make sure granaries are built.

Christianity - I'm not sure how converting for a few turns would affct our other relations... does it kind of reset the "brothers" modifier when we switch back? I'd say no, if this is the case. Mao will probbaly convert him anyway.

Alex - if he won't be our dog, let's wipe him out. Athens would be a fine city to have.

JC - I'm all for bringing him into it, we just have to make sure we are the ones taking Beijing.

Ghandi - nobody seems willing to discuss him. Is he too good a friend now to think about taking his city? It would seem so.

Let's not lose sight of our long term goals and the winning conditions, where these techs will be valuable. Also CoL will be needed after taking the chinese cities to keep maint down.
True enough. I think we should be able to trade either MC or Machinery for CoL, and that's certainly a priority. However I don't see us as in a big rush to research CS - I think engineering and guilds are our higher priorities.

Whipping - damn, I was only really looking at the libraries up north until after my turns. Can I suggest we keep the next round of whips for forges, but also make sure granaries are built.
We'll be fine. Forges are the priority in our production cities of course. Rostov, however, needs its library desperately.

Christianity - I'm not sure how converting for a few turns would affct our other relations... does it kind of reset the "brothers" modifier when we switch back? I'd say no, if this is the case. Mao will probbaly convert him anyway.
Yeah you're probably right. Just trying to think out of the box :)

Alex - if he won't be our dog, let's wipe him out. Athens would be a fine city to have.
I agree, I just don't want to make enemies of his friends.

JC - I'm all for bringing him into it, we just have to make sure we are the ones taking Beijing.
I doubt there's much worry about him getting up that far. He will likely harrass Mao's smaller southern cities, a perfect use for his praetorians.

Ghandi - nobody seems willing to discuss him. Is he too good a friend now to think about taking his city? It would seem so.
I definitely think so, at least for the time being. His one city on our island is pretty much useless anyway, with us controlling all of the gems in our cultural borders. In time it may be a decent enough city, with cottages, but by then we might be looking to flip it culturally. I would work on converting the remainder of his cities, and cementing our alliance. He would be a wonderful choice to eventually form a PA with ... the only negative aspect being that we will get some "Our close borders spark tensions" negatives.

Alright, so how about I play a turn where I trade for MC, lightbulb machinery, and post the result so we can see what comes up for trade?

I'll toss in a round of whipping, before I press enter, just for good measure.

Nice analysis Civ. Merum, good idea to go ahead and play a turn.

Yep, go for it.... oh except if you want to whip forges, you'll have to wait til after the trades.:p

Sorry but i'm a bit busy in RL.

Civicide analisys is well made, and i agree to trade any techs and use our GE for Machinery, then trade it for something big, or wait.
With machinery and CoL CS is at hand, I agree to not revolt for bureau (Moscow doesn't worth) but we'll have Maces, a good cure for Mao's LBs (if supported with cats).

Yes, better use Ghandi as a partner, for now at least.

JC can be a nice help against Mao, but we need an army ready before to bribe him at war.

Alex seems to not be a problem, if he DoW, we have to be ready to fight him and to take Athens, and possibly to eliminate him.

Okay, it sounds like this is the plan:

1) Trade Washington for Metal Casting (he wants Construction and Alphabet)
2) Trade Montezuma Monotheism and Alphabet for Monarchy
3) Lightbulb Machinery
4) See what other civs are willing to trade us for Machinery.
5) Begin forges in our production cities, whipping as necessary. Also, whip Rostov's Library to get it up and running.

As I see it, our next big decision is what to research next. I'm going to assume that at a bare minimum, we will be able to trade Machinery for CoL, Currency, and Feudalism, and possibly fill out other generic techs we still lack, like Drama. (Feudalism may be a stretch, as it, like Machinery, is a 700 beaker tech - perhaps we can trade Machinery + something else for it, maybe with Gandhi).

The obvious choices, as I see them, are Civil Service, Engineering, and Guilds.

The arguments for each of these choices:

CS: Allows Bureaucracy, which we would probably not use, and more importantly, would unlock macemen, a good all-purpose unit for taking out Mao's longbows. Cheapest of the 3 techs, 800 beakers, compared to 1000 for the other two.

Engineering: We would likely be able to grab the Hagia Sophia via a great engineer (which should arrive in about 30-35 turns or so, after the prophet pops). The worker efficiency would help us with our massive jungle clearing operation and probably mean we don't have to build any more workers for our main island. Plus, it's even more Great Engineer points for St. Petersburg, which we can always use. Allows trebuchets, which would be very useful in taking out Mao's longbows, much more useful than catapults.

Guilds: Allows knights, which are better than macemen against longbows (10 strength vs. 8 and immune to first strikes), but are very vulnerable to pikemen. Allows for a grocer, which would mean an extra ~6-7gpt in Moscow at least. Prereq to Banking and Gunpowder.

I think the argument is strongest for enginnering, but could be convinced otherwise. The HS would help us very much in the long term (I drool at those Great Engineer points), trebuchets will be as useful as macemen, and china's UU, the chu-ko-nu, absolutely decimates macemen (2 first strikes, +50% vs melee, causes collateral damage), which makes me nervous to rely on them.

What do others think?

...edit to add...

Also, with Monarchy and Feudalism, we will unlock HR and Vassalage. Should we revolt to either of these? I'm thinking we should grab Vassalage but pass on HR for the time being, since happiness is not really an issue for us at the moment.

OK, so, I trade With George, Metal Casting for Alpha and Construction.
Monty doesn't have Monarchy, he has CoL, and he won't trade it. I can get it from Alex for Lit/Con, but I don't think we want to trade con to him, since we're thinking about whacking on him.
We'll have to wait a turn to see what we can do with MC and Machinery for trades.
Whip the library in Rostov, start forges in St Pete and Yaroslavl. Novgorod has a missionary due next turn, so it can start its forge then.
I decide to start 2 axemen marching from Novgorod to Moscow, to beef up defenses there.
Moscow can be whipped after it grows next turn. I don't want to screw around and lose GPP there.
I turn off research for this turn so as to not burn beakers in a direction we might trade for. Engineering is due in a hideous 58 turns at 50%.

Now we've got Machinery, and suddenly we're everybody's best friend.

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_AD0275_01.CivWarlordsSave)

So, let's see what we can get out of it while it's hot.

And the one-turn log :D
Turn 184, 260 AD: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 184, 260 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 184, 260 AD: Mansa Musa has 440 gold available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Victoria has 120 gold available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Alexander has 110 gold available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Hatshepsut has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Julius Caesar has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Mao Zedong has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 184, 260 AD: Moscow has grown to size 7
Turn 184, 260 AD: You have constructed a Library in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 184, 260 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 184, 260 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa, Hatshepsut, Julius Caesar, Gandhi, Washington, Huayna Capac, Alexander, Montezuma, Mao Zedong

And now, the great Machinery fire sale...

JC will give us calendar, currency, and 70g.
Ghandi will give us Monarchy and CoL.

Anybody else will give us all of the lesser techs that are available, I'm sure. We could probably lever Machinery into tech parity now, but how long it will last is anybody's guess. I'm gonna pack it up tonight and wait to hear some opinions here.

OK, very good. I like those two trades. I haven't checked the save yet, but are there other techs we could get on the turn AFTER this one, eg CS?

\edit A useless post... I should have checked first. :D

Nobody has CS yet, by the looks of it. The other thing is that only MM (who wants machinery for it) and Ghandi have Drama. So if we want to grab that in this round of trades, we could do:

Monarchy and drama from Ghandi,
JC will give us calendar, currency, and 70g.
and, say CoL and HR from Washington.

Or HC is another option, being quite friendly.

I took a quick look at the save, and I agree with your tech trading plan. We should be able to get tech parity by giving up any monopoly on Mach. Scary, but probably the right thing to do.

I am curious how people are looking at diplomacy in this crowded world. Are we indiscriminately supporting our Jewish friends, or are there a couple we want to try to cultivate into best buddies? JC and Gandhi are points leaders, are high on the power charts and will make strong allies, but at some point we may need to take them out. However, in the meantime, we might make a strong alliance with them.

Diplomacy has not been my strong suit in Civ, but I think this game will require us to always consider it first.

I like those trades as well. They will put us pretty much at parity, minus feudalism (which we may have to wait for, it seems). The only tech that we lack that everyone else seems to have is Horseback Riding, which Montezuma will trade with us for alphabet (which we should definitely do).

I'm a little surprised Taoism hasn't been founded yet.

Engineering looks gross to research (although in 18 turns we can turn our rate up if we want, thank goodness for shrines), but CS won't be much better. We are simply low on commerce at the moment. We need cottages, and should think about running science specialists where possible (Rostov in particular should be able to run 2, and Moscow should certainly start running 2 after the prophet pops). That should help a lot (thank goodness for Representation). Past that, I agree with Sweet's assessment that we need cottages, pronto.

I took a quick look at the save, and I agree with your tech trading plan. We should be able to get tech parity by giving up any monopoly on Mach. Scary, but probably the right thing to do.

I am curious how people are looking at diplomacy in this crowded world. Are we indiscriminately supporting our Jewish friends, or are there a couple we want to try to cultivate into best buddies? JC and Gandhi are points leaders, are high on the power charts and will make strong allies, but at some point we may need to take them out. However, in the meantime, we might make a strong alliance with them.

Diplomacy has not been my strong suit in Civ, but I think this game will require us to always consider it first.
I agree, with 17 rivals on the map, we simply cannot afford to make enemies of everyone, though, nor can we afford to sit back peacefully and hope for a laurel. I think the key is to avoid war on multiple fronts, if at all possible, with the secondary goal of cultivating one or two very strong friendships. I think we're off to a good start at that, and, honestly, I'm toying in my brain with the possibility of a true diplomatic victory and what that would require (not just, get so huge that we can vote for ourselves and win).

Right now the game is developing into a few religious factions:

1) The Jews. Us, Gandhi, JC, and Alexander (though perhaps not for long)
2) The Confucians. Mansa Musa, Hatshepsut, and Saladin
3) The Buddhists. Victoria and Isabella (who are not particularly strong).
4) The Hindus. Louis XIV, and, based on the proliferation of Hinduism throughoutt he world, probably at least a couple of the 4 civs we haven't met yet.

(yes, that's right, there are 4 civs we still have no contact with. Scary, huh?)

Right now Mao is going it alone as a Christian, which makes him an ideal first target: we can attack him without garnering "You declared war on our friend!" negatives from anyone we care about. That's a no-brainer, particularly since his cities are lush, and the obvious targets include both the Christian holy city and the Great Lighthouse.

Beyond that, I think we should run with our alliances with Gandhi and Julius Caesar. They are geographically close, which means they provide a buffer against attack from the West (from civs like Victoria), they make good trading partners, and Julius in particular makes a wonderful attack dog (you simply must must MUST keep him at "friendly", though, as he doesn't think twice about attacking someone he's pleased with if they're weak). We have plenty of targets besides them - Hatshepsut and Mansa Musa, for instance, are probably going to have to fall before this is all over.

We do have to worry a bit about Gandhi launching before us, but that works in our favor if we can form a PA with him. The likelihood of this is enhanced by the fact that his favorite civic, Universal Suffrage, is something we're almost assuredly going to want to run (side note - it's amazing to me that Gandhi's favorite civic isn't Pacifism).

To that end, I say, try to please Gandhi and Julius however we can, acquiescing to any reasonable demand, and making sure we avoid the "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy!" negatives. Use missionaries to cement their Jewish faith (and to make us money) so they don't feel pressure to convert. Try and get Julius involved with us in attacking Mao (our mutual military struggle brings us closer together), and focus our energies elsewhere.

We are far enough along now, that I think things would have to shift very considerably before I think we consider attacking either of the two of them.

Here's the Autolog:

Turn 185 (275 AD)
Novgorod begins: Forge
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Tech learned: Horseback Riding
Moscow finishes: Library
St. Petersburg finishes: Forge

Turn 186 (290 AD)
Moscow begins: Granary
St. Petersburg begins: Granary
Tech learned: Drama
Tech learned: Currency
Tech learned: Monarchy
Tech learned: Calendar
Research begun: Feudalism
Moscow finishes: Granary

Turn 187 (305 AD)
Moscow begins: Catapult
St. Petersburg finishes: Granary
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 188 (320 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Library

Turn 189 (335 AD)
St. Petersburg grows: 6
Novgorod finishes: Forge
Rostov's borders expand

Turn 190 (350 AD)
Novgorod begins: Catapult
Rostov grows: 3

Turn 191 (365 AD)
Moscow grows: 6
Yaroslavl' grows: 3

Turn 192 (380 AD)
St. Petersburg's borders expand
Novgorod grows: 5
Contact made: Japanese Empire

Turn 193 (395 AD)
Novgorod finishes: Catapult

Turn 194 (410 AD)
Novgorod begins: Library

Turn 195 (425 AD)
Moscow grows: 7
St. Petersburg finishes: Library
Contact made: Mongolian Empire
Judaism has spread: Sanchu (Mongolian Empire)

Turn 196 (440 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Catapult

Turn 197 (455 AD)

Turn 198 (470 AD)
St. Patrick (Great Prophet) born in Moscow

Turn 199 (485 AD)
Moscow finishes: The Temple of Solomon

And my notes:
OK, for starters, I traded Monty Alphabet, Metal Casting, and Monotheism for CoL and HBR. I figure with CoL from them and another turn going by, we might reveal something else for trade.
Whip Moscow's Library now that we are size 7
Whip the forge in St. Pete

Well, I did reveal new techs, theology and CS, sadly, nobody will trade them to us.
Damn. Now JC won't trade with us, because he fears we are becoming too advanced. Bastard is 4 techs up on us. I'll have to go to Hatty instead.
On the upside, HAtty's pleased with us again, and I bet we can get her back to the proper religion with a few missionaries.
I switch to feudalism at deficit research for a while to make up the turns at 0 science.
Trade gems to JC for 5gpt

Mao cancels OB with us
Alex comes begging for HBR. I tell him to stuff it.
Mansa comes asking for metal casting as a freebie. I also tell him to stuff it.
Louis wants to give us 180g for MC. He gets told to stuff it, too, considering he thinks we're his worst enemy and won't offer us the tech we want instead.

Mao wants us to cancel with Ghandi. Yeah right.
Monty decides to love Buddha.
Hatty founded Taoism, now has philosophy.
As a city, Yaroslavl makes a great paperweight. Our cities suck.
Whip a forge in Novgorod.

I decide to sell literature to Monty for 230 gold, and turn research up another notch.
I catch an engineer that the governor slipped in in St. Pete and remove him, we would have sprung a GE there before the GP in Moscow. Watch out for this, guys.

Yaroslavl finally grows to 3. Forced to work a 1f1c water square to keep it from starving. Need to develop the cows.

We meet Tokugawa. He's backwards, but has lots of cities.

Washington asks for OB and I agree.
Land a missionary in Egypt.
The governor of Moscow slipped a scientist in on me that I didn't notice for a turn, and polluted our GPP. Pray, guys.

We meet Kublai of the Mongols.
Louis threatens us for Machinery, Kublai threatens us for 120g. Both get told to stuff it.
Monty cancels our OB.

Now we have a problem. Ghandi has switched to Buddhism.

Saint Patrick is born in Moscow!!! Immediately after running all the snakes out of there, he builds the temple of Solomon. It nets us 18gpt.


All in all, I'm really underwhelmed with the way things are going. Besides Moscow and St PEte, we really don't have a city worth a damn, and we're again slipping behind on tech.

We need to pump missionaries into India and try to get Ghandi back into the fold. I'd recommend the same in Egypt.
Our production is horrible, and the military buildup is agonizingly slow. At this rate, we should be ready to attack somebody sometime in late 1972.
Now that we have our prophet, we should probably shift Moscow to scientists, and do as much as we can to boost research.

Here's the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_AD0485_01.CivWarlordsSave)

And the event log:Turn 185, 275 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 185, 275 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Sojourner Truth (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 185, 275 AD: Washington adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 186, 290 AD: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 186, 290 AD: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 186, 290 AD: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 186, 290 AD: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 186, 290 AD: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 186, 290 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 186, 290 AD: Louis XIV's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 186, 290 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 187, 305 AD: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 187, 305 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 188, 320 AD: Montezuma adopts Theocracy!
Turn 188, 320 AD: Montezuma converts to Buddhism!

Turn 189, 335 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!

Turn 191, 365 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Vassalage!

Turn 192, 380 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 192, 380 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Vassalage!

Turn 194, 410 AD: Euclid (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 194, 410 AD: Gandhi adopts Pacifism!

Turn 195, 425 AD: Victoria adopts Vassalage!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Louis XIV's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 195, 425 AD: Judaism has spread in Sanchu.

Turn 196, 440 AD: Michael Faraday (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 196, 440 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Gandhi

Turn 197, 455 AD: Louis XIV has 280 gold available for trade
Turn 197, 455 AD: Gandhi converts to Buddhism!
Turn 197, 455 AD: Washington converts to Taoism!

Turn 198, 470 AD: Hatshepsut has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: Tokugawa has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: Gandhi has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: Mao Zedong has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 198, 470 AD: St. Patrick (Great Prophet) has been born in Moscow (Fifth Element)!
Turn 198, 470 AD: Moscow will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 198, 470 AD: Francis Bacon (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 199, 485 AD: Fifth Element has completed The Temple of Solomon!

Okay, if the schedule is correct, I am up next. This is a GOT IT.

Priorities:

1) Finish Feudalism. Do we want to switch to Vassalage? I'm tempted for sure.

2) We need military and missionaries both. Which is the priority? I think, Novgorod for missionaries, St. Pete's for military. Catapults, mostly.

3) I think I'm going to go with research @80%, which nets us 5 gpt. We will need to have cash on hand for bribing.

4) I will switch Moscow over to a Market. It will bring us 5 more gpt and allow us to run research @100% and almost break even. I will whip it ASAP. Moscow will run scientists x2 for the foreseeable future.

5) St. Pete's will crunch out catapults. I'll run an enginner there, netting us 14 gpp/t with an engineer due in 14 turns.

6) With that in mind, I think that gives us a better than fighting chance for the Hagia Sophia in St. Pete's if we research engineering next. I think that's our best bet at the moment. Engineering should be tradeable with our friends. The HS will help us immensely with the more efficient workers (we still have a lot of jungle to chop) and the extra engineering points should help us out a lot in the long term.

7) Gandhi's switch to Buddhism has left him without many friends. He's +4 with Vicky, +3 with Izzy, 0 or negative with everyone else he has contact with. He's now a palatable target.

8) We have several options for trading resources for gpt. How do we feel about gifting gpt and then trading back for it in return? How much gpt can you usually get for a resource? We really don't need the happiness/health at the moment. With that in mind I think we should make hooking up our remaining gems a priority. Many people will trade for spices as well.

9) I concur that our cities are underwhelming, particularly Rostov and Yaroslavl, but they will be fine in time. That's what happens when your island is covered with jungle. We're Russians dammit, we're not supposed to know how to deal with jungle! I've switched Rostov from a Lighthouse to a Work Boat (with the intent of an eventual whip). Once done it will sacrifice its cows to Yaroslavl so Yaroslavl can have a little extra food.

10) We've got a shrine now, and that can and will make a big difference. Now we must prepare for war.

Thoughts before I play, probably sometime later tonight? It's 6pm here but I will be up all night - I've been on back shifts for a week.

On a side note, I know that there was at least one more poker player on our team, so I thought I would share. Last night I joined up to a $5 pot-limit omaha tournament with rebuys and 219 players and wound up winning it all. I made a deal with the second place finisher when we were even in chips for an even split of the remaining prize money, so we both walked away with just over $950 US. Not bad for what turned out to be a $30 investment. Just thought I would brag a bit :)

Once Feudalism is finished, we should build up some longbows for city defense. Some walls, too, maybe.

Remember our UU is the Cossack. This tells me we should be heading for that tech, and building stables until we get there.

Remember to switch Moscow from priests to scientists. Maybe we can bag an academy someplace.

Ghandi's diplomatic situation suggests he was bribed into Buddhism. He can probably be brought back, but should we snatch his city first?

Good show on the poker! I like to play poker, but haven't ever played online. I can't seem to bring myself to trust electronic cards where money is involved.

@ Civicide
I agree almost with all your plan, only some point:
I don't like Vassalage, is an high civic cost + anarchy, only for 2 XP, useless, IMO.
Agreed for a market in Moscow, then grocer and a bank, let's burn a GE for Wall Street there when we'll have Corporation and the sufficient number of banks, this is the best way to use the shrine income.

Let go Ghandi for now, Mao must be our first target, and we need maces and a lot of cats, or axes/swords and a double lot (?!) of cats... this is not bad i've tried once, and it works, only problem we got to ferry units.

Outstanding result on the poker front!!

As for our game, well, there's so much to do and so little time. The tech ideas sound fine, and, well, i've been away for the weekend, so haven't checked the save, but we should approach the religion thing like we would a war. Ghandi was bhuddist before he was jewish, wasn't he? So he obviously already had it in his cities, but it shouldn't be too hard to get him back. Also the shrine increases the spread rate, doesn't it? Anyway, the approach... yes, we wouldn't dream of attacking 2 separate nations at the same time without being powerful enough, so we aim for one, ie Mao. The same shouldd apply to our missionaries... keep them coming and send them all to Ghandi, or Hatty, whichever we decide to work on.

As for Mao, luckily we can see into his cities, so we should be able to make a good plan for him and should start creating an army/ navy list. hmm.. as per usual, I'll have to check the save. :)

Okay, latest TS complete!

Highlights:

Got feudalism. Great Engineer born in St. Pete's. Engineering is 3 turns away.

Hatshepsut will convert to Judaism for 230 gold

The Temple of Solomon is netting us 23 gpt. With my trades, at 100% research we are netting +8gpt

Started trades:
Hatshepsut ... Spices for 4gpt
Gandhi ... Cow for 5gpt
Caesar ... Gems for 5gpt
Victoria ... Gems for 5gpt

2 Missionaries are in a boat. We need to decide between converting Hatty or converting Gandhi. I think Gandhi, since we can bribe Hatty.

Traded with Kublai Khan: Feudalism for Music + 50gold

Caesar will stop trading with Mao in exchange for Music. We can't yet bribe him into war, however.

Found Frederick. He's off to the East, and weak weak weak. He is at war with both Monty and Alex. Monty tried to bring us into the war, I said no.
He was Taoist, converted to Hindu during my TS.

Offensive forces currently consist of: Axemen x5, Catapult x6.

Found Montezuma's location. He's way east of us, east of Frederick.

Mao has maces and engineering, however Beijing is currently criminally underdefended (Longbowmen x2 and Pikeman x1). He also has a Great Merchant sitting there, probably wants to start a GA.

In-depth notes, for the masochistic:

Turn 199 (Inherited)

Moscow: Switched to market, will whip ASAP, running scientist x2
St. Pete's: running an engineer, cranking out catapults
Novgorod: Finishing library, will make missionaries after it is done, will run an engineer upon growing in 9 turns
Rostov: Building Work Boat, will whip when possible
Yaroslavl: Continuing forge

Gifted Hatshepsut 2gpt, in preparation for trading gems for gpt next turn

Turn 200 (485 AD)

IBT: Saladin demands 120 gold. I tell him to stuff it.
Montezuma adopts hereditary rule.
Catapult in St. Pete's. Building: Catapult
Traded Hatty spices for 4gpt
Traded Victoria gems for 4gpt
Whipped Work Boat in Rostov

Turn 201 (515 AD)
IBT: Largest civs: HC, Toku, Mao, Gandhi, Kublai, Julius, Monty, Hatty
I notice a warrior west of Yaroslavl is costing us a gpt. I move it back within our cultural borders. Pump research up to 90%. We're making 5gpt still.

Turn 202 (530 AD)
Researched: Feudalism; Started: Engineering. Due in 18 turns.
Library complete in Novgorod; Building: Jewish Missionary
Missionary spreads Judaism in Pisae
Noticed Mao has Civil Service. Ouch.

Turn 203 (545 AD)
Gandhi has taken point lead over from Mao. We cannot convert him back to Judaism, "Too few of our people follow that faith"
Tokugawa adopts Vassalage
Missionary spreads Judaism in Thebes
Kublai Khan offers Music and 50 gold for Feudalism. That's a 1345 beaker tech for a 1569 beaker tech, and gold in the deal as well. I accept.
St. Pete's completes: Catapult; Building: Galley
Mansa Musa adopts Bureaucracy

Turn 204 (560 AD)
Not much

Turn 205 (590 AD)
Not much happens for the second straight turn

Turn 206
Alexander has completed the Colossus. In Athens. My goodness what a tempting target that is. Athens is defended only by two archers and a phalanx!
Novgorod has completed a Jewish Missionary. Working on another. It's heading to Yaroslavl
Contact made with Frederick. He's East of us, Taoist, and the lowest score in the game. Horribly backwards. Lacks Mono, CoL, Feudalism, Alpha, Currency, HBR, and Machinery. Worst enemy is Alexander.
Whipped Market in Moscow for 2 pop.

Turn 207 (605 AD)
Montezuma wants us to declare war on the Germans. Alexander and Monty are both currently at war with Frederick. I tell him no. I have no interest in cementing our relationship with Alexander at this point. He's a target.
Judaism spreads in a random Roman city. God I love this shrine. With the Market built, I pump us up to 100% research. We're still making 4 gpt.
JC wants Feudalism to stop trading with Mao. Tempting.
Hatshepsut will convert to Judaism for 210 gold. Tempting but a little steep at the moment, I think.

Turn 208 (620 AD)
Frederick wants OB. I accept.
Catapult complete in Moscow. Building: Longbow
Galley complete in St. Pete's; Building: Catapult
Novgorod is working an Engineer.

Turn 209 (635 AD)
Not much

Turn 210 (650 AD)
Judaism spread in Yaroslavl, thanks to our trusty missionary.
Missionary complete in Novgorod. Building another.

Turn 211 (665 AD)
Frederick converts to Hinduism
Moscow tried to stick a Merchant in Moscow. Better, I think, to work our new cottage and not further pollute the GP pool.
Not much going on at this point, quite a bit of hitting Enter.

Turn 212 (680 AD)
Washington adopts Theocracy
We found Montezuma. He's east of Frederick.
Operation: Jungle Clear is commencing
Trading with Gandhi: Cow for 5gpt

Turn 213 (695 AD)
Zhang Heng (Great Engineer) born in St. Pete's
Judiasm spreads in a random city of HC's

Turn 214 (710 AD)
...passing it on
El save-o (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Fifth_Element_SG003_AD0710_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The roster was buried 4 pages down, i hope this is correct

Roster:
Blubmuz (up)
BrianS (on deck)
Sweetacshon
Merum
Civicide (rest)

Doom Train pause until Feb. 15th

I only DL the save, i'll open it tomorrow, then i'll post my plan.
Reading Civicide's report i suppose to continue the military build-up.
We all agree Mao is our first target or is better Alex? his war can help us, and we can have a foothold on Mao's island.
Good TSs you all, and good reports, too... i think the autolog helps a lot.

Some volunteer to post in the first spoiler?

I will start a write-up for the first spoiler, however we don't yet qualify as we haven't met everyone.

I think i'll stop to build missionaries, and start to build axes and some crossbowman, maybe a galley, we got only 2 for ferry.

It's desolating to see our research @100%+ and have the last GNP, for a miserable 137 b/turn.

I think i'll send the 2 missionaries in Roman lands, then i'll gave them to JC, this should increase their chances and reduce our costs.

We MUST attack Alex first ASAP:
I'll take the galleys in S.Pete, and concentrate there all our troops: i'll let only units for defence, then ferry 3 galleys E of Sparta, filled with 3 cats and 3 axes: hopefully we can capture it with all the Greek fleet.
Both Athens and Sparta are on plains, so easy.

Moscow: I think i'll substitute the cottages along the river with watermills, and cottage the plains, then start and whip and chop a forge.
Forge in Rostov, too, before the lighthouse that will take forever... we can irrigate the jungle S of rice, f+1, only 1 worker for that job.
Yaro: forge, 1 or 2 turns library, then axes.
S.Pete LH (4 turns), then CB.
Novgorod: galley, to ferry units in the east side

What about trade Music+drama to Vicky for CS? or Music+CoL at worst.
For sure not revolt to B., useless with that capital.
I hope i can declare to Alex in my TS

Waiting you comments, i'll play tomorrow (1/17), say 20.00PM GMT

side note: damn we'll launch a petard in 2030, not a SS before 1900 :crazyeye: .

If we attack Alex first we need to be able to attack Mao quickly, because his culture will overwhelm our cities.

IMO, we should be beelining to the techs that will give us Cossacks, that will give us a good military option for a while.

Hmm.. cfc has been down today, and I forgot to actually post last time ..

2 missionaries in Roman lands, then i'll gave them to JC, this should increase their chances and

What do you mean exactly, more chance?

OK, perhaps Alex is the good target. The cities are good, there's not too many of them. However, I think killing him off first might be a mistake. Won't we get a negative reaction from our jewish allies for attacking him? Ahh... it's probably worth it. We'll need more triremes, and make sure we have a kamakaze squad to pillage his iron.

One other thing is the capital. I'm not sure we should be running all the specialists there. Perhaps growing the city and taking the money is a better option, and at least we can whip the buildings we need, eg a monastry wouldn't go astray.

I was busy yesterday, so i'll play tonight or tomorrow.
Counting our needs, i don't think i'll manage to be ready to DoW on anyone in my TS, so i'll prepare our troops for ferry, and we'll decide later.

Your points are good, of course we have to be ready (or almost) to DoW on Mao after Alex, and since one half of the AIs is Jew, we'll have to live with (-1 you declared war at our friend) or attack Ghandi (?) and be completely hated, or peacefully stay in our island, and hope in heavens to help.

another point of this strategy is that if we take Greece, we'll need less turns to ferry, and we can have our army close to Mao.
For now axes against maces and LB??? no thanks.

Please don't forget the Parthenon, the Colossus and in addiction the great wall.

Thanks Civicide for your offer, can we see a draft before you'll submit (of course when we'll meet the 18th).

Well, played my poor TS, no wars, here the highlights:
IT
Traded with Vicky, not too good, but necessary: Music, Drama and Col for CS+10g
IBT: Washington cancels OB

t218:
traded with KK (now with the face of Qin Shi Huang): Engineering for Theology+Compass+70g
there are caravels in sight
IBT the missionary i gave to JC worked well (the first one spreaded on landing)

t219
Traded spices to Louis for 4 gpt

T221
circumnavigating Germany S of Munich, meet Cyrus our 18th (so we can post!), signed OB, traded eng. for optics+20g not good, but he's pleased and i quickly started a caravel to try to circumnavigate first.
in the meantime i'll recall home our galley

t225
IBT MM offers corn for gems,but i prefer trade to KK for 6 gpt... we are in good health

t227 Vicky offers OB, sure darling

t228
after judaism autospreaded Berlin, Frederick converts
2nd caravel started, first is aklready driving east, but Mao has Astronomy
sure like hell MM will be first to liberalism, he already has paper and Philo, and we can't see more

t229
Guilds is almost a monopoly tech, i traded it to Ghandi for Philo+320g
MM give us at least paper and all his gold, but is a bit light... decision to the team
finally whipped forge in Moscow for 2 pop

t230
MM offers paper again, we'll have to discuss these
end of my TS: 972 gold in bank, 100% research + 22gpt, 18th for GNP... something like Burundi in the real world some of you think Burundi has some chance to launch a starship before USA?

and here the log (sorry i use htm tags, next time i'll switch to forum tags for my TS):
Tech learned: Civil Service
St. Petersburg finishes: Longbowman

Turn 215 (725 AD)
Moscow finishes: Longbowman

Turn 216 (740 AD)
Tech learned: Engineering
Moscow grows: 9
Novgorod finishes: Jewish Missionary

Turn 217 (755 AD)
Research begun: Guilds
Yaroslavl' finishes: Forge

Turn 218 (770 AD)
Judaism has spread: Cumae (Roman Empire)
Judaism has spread: Calcutta (Indian Empire)
Tech learned: Theology
Tech learned: Compass
St. Petersburg finishes: Lighthouse
Judaism has spread: Antium (Roman Empire)

Turn 219 (785 AD)
Yaroslavl' grows: 5

Turn 220 (800 AD)
St. Petersburg grows: 8
Novgorod finishes: Galley

Turn 221 (815 AD)
Contact made: Persian Empire
Tech learned: Optics
Moscow grows: 10

Turn 222 (830 AD)
Novgorod's borders expand
Rostov grows: 5
Islam founded in a distant land

Turn 223 (845 AD)

Turn 224 (860 AD)
Yaroslavl''s borders expand

Turn 225 (875 AD)
St. Petersburg finishes: Caravel
Yaroslavl' finishes: Library

Turn 226 (890 AD)
Judaism has spread: Berlin (German Empire)

Turn 227 (905 AD)
St. Petersburg finishes: Maceman
Novgorod finishes: Maceman

Turn 228 (920 AD)
Tech learned: Guilds

Turn 229 (935 AD)
Research begun: Gunpowder
Tech learned: Philosophy
Moscow finishes: Forge
Judaism has spread: Shandong (Chinese Empire)

Turn 230 (950 AD)
and here the save

if someone is interested, the official log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 710 AD to 950 AD:

Turn 214, 710 AD: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 214, 710 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 214, 710 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Vassalage!

Turn 215, 725 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 215, 725 AD: Ptolemy (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 216, 740 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 216, 740 AD: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 217, 755 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 217, 755 AD: Gaul (Barbarian) has been captured by the Egyptian Empire!!!
Turn 217, 755 AD: Al-Khwarizmi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 218, 770 AD: Judaism has spread in Cumae.
Turn 218, 770 AD: Judaism has spread in Calcutta.
Turn 218, 770 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 218, 770 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Judaism has spread in Antium.
Turn 218, 770 AD: Alexander adopts Vassalage!

Turn 219, 785 AD: Hatshepsut has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Frederick has made peace with Montezuma!

Turn 221, 815 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 221, 815 AD: Cyrus converts to Buddhism!
Turn 221, 815 AD: Victoria adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 221, 815 AD: Socrates (Great Scientist) has been born in Shanghai (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 222, 830 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Islam has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Mao Zedong's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 224, 860 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!

Turn 225, 875 AD: You have trained a Caravel in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Maceman.

Turn 226, 890 AD: Judaism has spread in Berlin.

Turn 227, 905 AD: Mao Zedong has 280 gold available for trade
Turn 227, 905 AD: Montezuma has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 227, 905 AD: Frederick converts to Judaism!

Turn 228, 920 AD: Hatshepsut has 160 gold available for trade
Turn 228, 920 AD: Louis XIV has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 228, 920 AD: Huayna Capac has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 228, 920 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 228, 920 AD: The Sistine Chapel has been built in a far away land!

Turn 229, 935 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Mansa Musa has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 229, 935 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 229, 935 AD: Tokugawa adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Judaism has spread in Shandong.

We forget to discuss about the next tech, i choose Guilds, and probably was a good choice, let me know.

You seem a little down, Blubmuz, but I don't think it's going all that bad. We have cash to burn, and that's lucky, because we need more territory. If we are going for SS, we don't have enough prod'n to actually build it, even if we do have a fair tech rate, and if we are going for diplo, well, we need far more clout than we do now.

I think we really need to nail down the short term plan, as we seem a litle wishy washy right now. Do we still want to take out Mao? He is strong and has 9-10 cities.. well, he's still the juicy target, isn't he? Do we go through or around Alex? I'm still undecided. Can everyone post their thoughts, so we can come to a group decision, and all work to the same plan?

Personally, I am over tiptoeing around Mao and Alex, and I want to take their whole island. Mao can keep his little islands... for the moment. So how?? Well, we are in the fortunite position of having a bit of money, so if we keep our cat stocks high, I think we can easily upgrade our units to just roll over them.

For now axes against maces and LB??? no thanks.

You did mean Mao and not Alex, right? So what units do we need to take Alex? Knights? (its a pity we don't have earlier units to upgrade) Maces? It seems as though if we drain our cities and upgrade, we are pretty much ready to attack. Perhaps a few trebs would be good, too.

Not many notes at the moment, as I'm busy writing up our spoiler, but I notice that we still have a Great Engineer sitting idly in St. Petersburg. I've been suggesting that we use it to build the Hagia Sophia, but haven't heard a word either way on that. I think it would help immensely, as our workers still have quite a bit of improving to do, and the extra GE points in St. Pete's never hurt, but I am certainly open for discussion on that one.

What do people think we should use that engineer for, if not for the HS? Another Wonder? Lightbulb a tech? (Right now it gives us +1596 beakers for gunpowder, which is indeed quite tempting). We need some sort of plan.

I'd say we can use Zhang Heng to build the HS, we'll get another GE pretty soon. Gunpowder is tempting, but muskets really aren't that much better than what we already have, and we can probably defer gunpowder for a bit. We'll have researched it ourselves in 13 turns, anyway, and less if we build an academy.

That said, I almost never build the HS, since it expires with steam power, but since we seem to be working a GE farm at St Pete, it makes sense. We want to pump and keep GEs for the UN, The Space elevator, and my personal favorite wonder, the Eiffel tower. So, anything that gives us extra GE points is a bonus.

Moscow is going to pop a GP in 4 turns, hopefully a scientist. Do we use him on an academy, or do we use him for a lightbulb? I'd tend to lean toward an academy, unless it's late in the game.

We have OB with Alex, which means we can ferry through him to get to Mao. I also want the entire island, but no sense in pissing off the entire Jewish bloc until we have to, Alex will wait. In the meantime, maybe we put some christian missionaries in there, and see if he'll convert?

Yes i'm a bit down for 2 reasons:
1 i suppose is common for all the teams, and it's the starting island that let us in our situation;
the other 1 is looking at the results' graph, we're last in everything compared to the others warlords teams, and that, aside Rostov, we didn't make any mistake or bad decision: judaism is paiyng, and consistently on both relations and cash, our trades are well done, we are keeping the pace of the best AIs.

This said, look at the future:
- HS can help with all that jungle, if we can pop other 2 GE the one sitting in S.Pete can be well spent. The Eiffel is good for late warmogering, lady Liberty is almost useless in this kind of map, at least in our island, so one GE for WS, sure like hell, and another for UN or SE, depends from our choice of victory.
- I started Gunpowder 'cause i hope to trade for paper, and we can do it with MM, then switch to education, hope for a GS from Moscow and lightbulb Education, MM lost time researching DR, we can have a chance to Liberalism, but only with the help of a GS.
- My experience (HOF gauntlet 6) on a warlords/monarch spacerace (diplo doesn't differs much) is that until education or so it seems to be at Emperor or higher, after that monarch became monarch. To say that all the game was warmogering, and probably i benefit of this, beeing peaceful and owning a big and good land.
- War: with maces and cats we can destroy Alex in 5 or 6 turns, preparing a "serious" army for Mao... ok relations with other jews will go down a bit, but will not compromised and, yes we can build some knight.

We have OB with Alex, which means we can ferry through him to get to Mao. I also want the entire island, but no sense in pissing off the entire Jewish bloc until we have to, Alex will wait. In the meantime, maybe we put some christian missionaries in there, and see if he'll convert?

I was thinking of this, or even converting to christ, making him switch, and then converting back. But this does seem convoluted, and maybe it's just better to crush him. Speaking of which, it seems we have 1 vote against attacking Alex first, Merum, and 2 for, me (although I could be easily swayed) and Blub. Civ hasn't expressed an opinion, and we seem to have lost Brian's interest for the last... 10 days. It is his turn... he did log in today, but no "got it" yet. hmm.

I'm all for the HS.As stated, we'll have more GEs soon enough. And the plans for these guys is fine with me, also.

I noticed too that Brian last post was 1/9, so i think he's busy (or lost interest, as Sweeta says).

An opinion by Civicide would be welcome, and if Brian does not post a "got it" within today, Sweeta can play.
We'll see if this will be a swap or a skip.
For sure we're goin' a bit too slow in those last weeks.

So, next TS we'll build the HS, and prepare to DoW on Alex, possibly in the same TS, that is a warm-up for the war with Mao.

I'm back. Haven't lost interest. I just got tied up with some matters and things seemed to be moving along well here.

This is my got it. I'll examine the game and notes here and will post a plan later today. I'll play by Sunday morning.

I am not opposed to attacking Alex, though I am a bit worried about how that will affect our relations with Julius Caesar. I was hoping that we might have a chance to push him to "friendly", since that's the only way to ensure he won't attack (something we definitely don't want), and war with his friend Alex will not help that. But Alex is a very tempting target. He does have longbows now, but our catapults and macemen should roll over his cities, and Athens in particular is quite nice.

Go ahead and do it.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry too much about our placement in the "score" graph vs. the other teams. Score at this phase of the game is overrated, we are still accelerating nicely, and we aren't that far behind. There is a large pack right where we are at our timeline. Once we take 3-4 cities we will be in a prime spot to jump way up.

The most informational graph on the progress & results page is actually the culture graph. If you notice, our graph curves sharply upwards far before any other team's, which probably means that we were the only Warlords team to found an early religion. Judaism is at 20% influence, and the likely founders of the other early religions are far away and unlikely to have holy cities that other teams can take.

That means that we have a key advantage likely over every other team: our shrine. I wonder how many other teams, at our year, can run 100% research and still make in excess of 20gpt. This is a massive benefit. Once we take some cities with developed towns and develop cottages on our own island, we will be very scary.

Speaking of which, when it comes to long term great engineer usage, here are my thoughts:

1) Wall Street in Moscow. This is the best use of a GE that we will have.
2) SE or UN, depending on our choice of victory
3) Kremlin. We will want to buy a lot of stuff, particularly if we are in space race mode. The Kremlin is invaluable for this.

I don't see any particular need for Eiffel Tower, unless we start running into culture problems in our future conquests. It's useful but hardly essential. Popping 3 more engineers shouldn't be a problem.

Here's my plan after looking at the save and everyone's comments. Let me know your thoughts:

1.Burn GE on Hagia Sophia in St Pete

2.Worker actions

a)In general, we need more farms than cottages. We have +22 GPT at 100% research. We need to focus on specialists and production, and for both we need food. Having said this, I note that we are actually dead last in GNP, but 4th in production. This seems strange given our gem wealth and shrine and our huge positive GPT at 100%.

b)Priority, need irrigation chain of farms from river outside St Pete up to Yaroslavl. Currently, a worker is building a cottage on a tile 1 SE of Yaroslavl that really should be farmed in order to allow Yaroslavl to become a full production city. Although only 2 turns left to making this a cottage, I propose abandoning that effort and focusing on the farm chain.

3.War readiness. We have:
4 galley
1 caravel
6 catapult
2 maceman
1 chariot
6 axeman (useless unless promoted, but we do have the cash to promote with 972 gold)

4.War in my turnset? If I upgrade all 6 axes, this seems possible. For new military units, I will focus on cats, knights and a couple galleys, as we'll have 8 maces if we upgrade all our axes. Plan is for war with Alex, god help our souls.

5.Great persons. Moscow has one Due in 4 turns. 59% GS, 33% GP. If GS, need to decide if Academy or tech.

Further thoughts: Alex only has 2 cities. I propose landing a stack on the forest tile just outside of Athens and taking it first. Then immediately move on Sparta.

Hey guys, I want to get your thougths on this. While I was doing my pre-turn examination, I accidentally hit the enter key, causing the turn to end. I immediately quit without saving. I had not made any moves at all so my initial thought was this was fine. However, I'm concerned that this may show up as a problem with our save files. Do you know if this is a problem? AlanH, if you're lurking, what is your thought?

Hey guys, I want to get your thougths on this. While I was doing my pre-turn examination, I accidentally hit the enter key, causing the turn to end. I immediately quit without saving. I had not made any moves at all so my initial thought was this was fine. However, I'm concerned that this may show up as a problem with our save files. Do you know if this is a problem? AlanH, if you're lurking, what is your thought?
Check your auto-save files. If you are set to auto-save every turn (which is highly recommended), you may be able to load the save file which should have been made after you hit enter. This would be the kosher thing to do, as far as the integrity of the game is concerned.

If you don't have a save file, when you reload the game, you should hit enter before doing anything, treating it as if the game had crashed. Even if you planned to make moves before the turn ended, you should do this, as you may have gained information in the in-between-turn cycle which could potentially affect your decisions for what to do at the end of the turn.

Civicide, If the consensus is to do what you recommend, I'll do it. However, I didn't learn anything. I just quit immediately. I hate to lose the turn as there were several things I was planning to do before hitting enter.

1.Burn GE on Hagia Sophia in St Pete

Agreed. St. Pete's continues to work its way to being a production superpower.

a)In general, we need more farms than cottages.
I disagree with this. Despite our positive gold situation, which is mostly due to our massive shrine and the trades we have set up, our commerce is very weak. More commerce means more research, which we desperately need.

Rostov can probably deal with farms, since it will be a very nice GP farm (and I think that's what we decided it needed to be), but Yaroslavl' needs cottages, I think.

We have +22 GPT at 100% research. We need to focus on specialists and production, and for both we need food.
I think our production cities don't need much more food. I believe they have the food resources to generate their production regardless of food.

That being said, St. Pete's could use some farms, for the long-term expectation of running multiple engineers with a factory, power plant, and ironworks. Other cities, though, need cottages, in my opinion.

Having said this, I note that we are actually dead last in GNP, but 4th in production. This seems strange given our gem wealth and shrine and our huge positive GPT at 100%.
GNP is determined by commerce, not gold, I'm pretty sure. Our gold is excellent but our commerce is poor.

4.War in my turnset? If I upgrade all 6 axes, this seems possible. For new military units, I will focus on cats, knights and a couple galleys, as we'll have 8 maces if we upgrade all our axes. Plan is for war with Alex, god help our souls.
I agree. Upgrade everything. It doesn't look like bribing anyone into war is a possibility (certainly not with Alex), so use our gold on something immediately useful. Too bad you can't upgrade cats into trebuchets. I would build trebuchets instead of cats. Other than that, sounds good.

5.Great persons. Moscow has one Due in 4 turns. 59% GS, 33% GP. If GS, need to decide if Academy or tech.
I vote for an Academy, either in Moscow, or in our copper/horse city (can't think of the name right now, and don't have the save handy). The only reason I can think of to lightbulb is if we think we have a snowball's chance in hell of beating MM to Liberalism. At this point I don't think we do, but I can be overriden.[/quote]

Further thoughts: Alex only has 2 cities. I propose landing a stack on the forest tile just outside of Athens and taking it first. Then immediately move on Sparta.
Sounds good. Be prepared for him to bring Mao in as a war ally, he may very well do so. Might want to land at least one longbow with the force to defend Athens after we take it.

Quote:
a)In general, we need more farms than cottages.
I disagree with this. Despite our positive gold situation, which is mostly due to our massive shrine and the trades we have set up, our commerce is very weak. More commerce means more research, which we desperately need.

Rostov can probably deal with farms, since it will be a very nice GP farm (and I think that's what we decided it needed to be), but Yaroslavl' needs cottages, I think.

The trouble is that Yaroslavl can't run at full production without some farms. It's currently stagnant with 1 engineer specialist and will not be able to work both the engineer and the new gem mine that is being built by our sturdy workers. We need at least a couple farms to work everything and allow us to grow back quickly if have to whip.