I can't load the save but I have some general thoughts.

A settler for the SW island sounds like a good idea. St Petersburg could build it? I don't know if we care so much about building another city on our island.

Shouldn't we make a priority of the Colossus in Moscow, when the forge is done? Since we have traded MC, it's possible for other civs to start building it. We should be able to build the Colossus in only 10-12 turns, once we have copper hooked up.

I do agree that we need some units, probably chariots. We don't want war to break out because we seem weak. Should we build a barracks in Rostov? It will presumably be a place we build units in the future. Rostov also does want a library, so that it has a source of culture---otherwise, it might come under significant cultural pressure if someone else comes and plops down a city near it.

As an aside, I wouldn't build cottages around Novgorod. I think we can just run specialists there, and work coast tiles. With Colossus, coast will be better than grassland cottages in the short term. In the longer term, when we get CS, we can build farms around Novgorod and run a lot of specialists there.

On the other hand, the cities on the western part of the island can never have farms (no fresh water there), so it makes sense to build some early cottages there, and start growing them now, so they will reach town size relatively quickly.

A few game mechanic remarks:
Obsolete buildings still produce culture. So no reason not to trade calendar.
Education and printing press are higher on the scientist priority list than philosophy. So no reason to not get the prerequisites of philosophy, if they should get available.

I still think lighthouses have higher priority in Rostov and Novgorod than libraries. Sure we can grow anyway, but I generally despise working water tiles w/o lighthouse.

For the capital I would rush the forge in 4 turns for 2 pop (no specialists in the meantime). Then grow back to 7 in 1 turn and assign an engineer. We can then build 2-3 units before copper is hooked up and we start the colossus.

THE 25BC SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Peanut_SG003_BC0025_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Preturn: Turn 154 (190 BC)
Switch Novgorod to lighthouse
whip Granary at Yaroslavl
Novgorod begins: Lighthouse
Moscow grows: 8
Rostov grows: 2
Yaroslavl' finishes: Granary

Turn 155 (175 BC)
Rush monetary at St. Pete
I notice that there is already Indian settler pair at the Iron/crab island
Trade currency to India for Calender and 40g
rush lighthouse in Novgorod
Yaroslavl' begins: Lighthouse
Tech learned: Calendar
St. Petersburg finishes: Hindu Monastery
Novgorod grows: 4
Novgorod finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 156 (160 BC)
rush forge in the capital
St. Petersburg begins: Worker

Turn 157 (145 BC)
Gandhi demand literature. I give
we learn Theology, next Paper.
trade Theology to MM for monarchy and 150g
set capital to produce chariots
Tech learned: Theology
Moscow finishes: Forge
Novgorod grows: 5

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Kublai cancel OB
Sell Monarchy around for 460g
Research begun: Paper
Moscow begins: Chariot
Tech learned: Monarchy
Yaroslavl' grows: 2

Turn 159 (115 BC)
trade our newly connected rice for crabs (with MM)
Moscow grows: 7
Moscow finishes: Chariot
Novgorod grows: 6
Rostov grows: 3

Turn 160 (100 BC)
MM wanted us to stop trading with Greece, I decline
Moscow begins: Chariot
Moscow finishes: Chariot

Turn 161 (85 BC)
Gandhi wants us to stop trading with France, I decline
Kublai wants alphabet, I give.
we got a GS. I merge him in St. Pete for 9*185% beakers per turn.
Copper connected, I will start the colossus next turn.
Moscow begins: Chariot
Werner Heisenberg (Great Scientist) born in St. Petersburg

Turn 162 (70 BC)
England founded a city on our island !!!
Moscow finishes: Chariot
Novgorod grows: 7
Yaroslavl' grows: 3

Turn 163 (55 BC)
Fred wanted Metal Casting, I give.
Moscow begins: The Colossus
St. Petersburg finishes: Worker

Turn 164 (40 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Temple
Rostov grows: 4

Turn 165 (25 BC)


Summery:
Whipped some infra, built 3 chariots and a worker.
no more land to settle
start building the colossus.
Learned/treaded: Theology, Calender, Monarchy + 650g
I gave in to any tech demands, I refuse embargoes.

We really should mark our friends and our enemies. we will want at least 3-4 Friends to trade with.

Am I next? I can't play before Christmas, but I should be able to play about 72 hours from now.

It seems to me that Yaroslavl really needs a library, to work the 2nd gems. Also, we have to worry about England's cultural expansion. Fortunately, Canterbury is relatively far from us, and Victoria is not Creative. Still, I want to get started on the culture race, asap.

It seems that we have a fairly dominant position---the only thing really left to do is race to the UN while conquering some of our enemies and reinforcing our friendships. Anyone want to draft a list of friends and enemies? Also, figure out if there's a religion we might eventually adopt?

If we know where the Great Lighthouse is, I wouldn't mind an expedition to capture it.

Well, we don't know where GLight is, but we would for sure like to have this city. It has also Parthenon and ToA.

We can trade CoL from Hatty and should do so. I would also gift/sell some techs around. I would like everybody to have currency and CoL so they generate more money.
We could also pick up HBR to build stables.

Next turn we get paper and should trade for all maps we can get.

We should also check our resource trades. Stone for just wine is too cheap. Mao and Mansa have corn, which is a 2 health resource as we have granaries everywhere.

Currently Hinduism would look as the religion to make most friends. But we will also get a lot of enemies. Especially Mansa we shouldn't piss off too much. He's the one who never gets into the "too advanced" mood and will trade the whole game if he isn't your worst enemy.

I will look at optimizing the trades, and trading for whatever we can get.

We can make some educated guesses about who has the GL/Par/TOA city---it must be the capital of an Industrious civ. I think pretty soon we may reach the point where we aren't going to get many more key techs in trade---we're going to have to do a lot of research ourselves. We may just wait until very late in the game, to adopt a religion. But we should think ahead about which religion we're going to adopt, and try to help our future friends while wiping out some of those who aren't going to like us. We don't necessarily want or need to completely take them out of the game, just do enough damage to cripple them. But not being able to raze any cities, changes the tactics a lot.

I don't know if I'll have much time in the next few days, but before New Years, I will make a spreadsheet for tracking the best options for friends & enemies.

In the scores, CFR have just spiked upwards. Doesn't look to be conquest - their power is quite low.

Looking pretty darn good! Roster time!

malekithe
klarius
civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan - Just Played
DaviddesJ <--- You're UP!!
Phabuk

So yes, DaviddesJ is up and Phabuk after. I think we can wait until after Christmas. :)

Getting COL sounds great, as does trading COL and Currency around; more money that we can use to keep Science going and/or upgrade our units.

Research-wise I think we need to put enough into Education so that our next GS almost finishes it off. After that research Machinery directly, then choose between Guilds if Feudalism is available for Trade and go for Knight conflict, or CS and Macemen conflict. Then Optics assuming Compass is available. Somewhere along the way (after Machinery) we can research Printing Press (I'd probably do our Conflict Tech first cause we'll need some time to impose our will on our targets), and after we obtain Philosophy, most of Liberalism.

After that Astronomy, Scientific Method, and Physics get potentially some GS Lightbulb help supported by some research, Electronics would be best to use the Liberalism Free Tech for, and Radio-Mass Media get lightbulb help from Great Artists, assuming we acquire some (Novgorod under Caste System would be my choice).

So we need up to 7 more GS's and 3 or so GA's for Lightbulbs, Liberalism for Free Tech, and about 5 more Techs to research to be at UN capability. If we can arrange a GE from Moscow, that would speed a UN build also.

I like the idea to Farm Novgorod and run a bunch of Specialists (Artists).

Hinduism would make a bunch of potential friends, including Victoria who is on our island. Alexander is all alone! He'd make a great final opponent if we can find ways to let him grow and not be attacking us; tough to do since the entire Hindu group currently outscores him. The Jewish contingent looks to be a good place to start poaching; it would be nice to keep MM large and leading the board (after us, eventually) so he might be the other candidate; and just whittle his other brethren of the faith down.

In any case, this is just taking religion into count. I look forward to seeing ainwood's spreadsheet.

We will not get education any faster, if we start it first. We should be able to fit machinery in before (9 turns) and still have the scientist nearly complete education after 8 turns research into it.

EDIT:
Another plan would be to research full steam to education, which shouldn't take much longer than generating the scientist and use the scientist for an academy in Novgorod. Novgorod can be at about 35 base beakers at that time (with 2 scientists) and still quite some potential for more, so it's pretty sure the academy will still pay off.

I think we should consider to capture (note: no city razing is on) Canterbury before it gets a second archer and before it expands in culture (it has hinduism). That means not more than about 10 turns.
The city is just a PITA if we leave it there.
We can and should upgrade our warriors then we have enough land troops. Problem is how to defend our nets.
So the English galley should get enough time to go away, our galley should get home and we could really use a trireme or two (anyway - at some time somebody will attack).

That doesn't mean that Vicky couldn't be a friend later, a limited early war is not a big problem.

Diplomacy wise I would recommend to cancel trades with Alex either right away, or when somebody wants it the next time. He's getting worse and worse relations with everybody he knows and we will otherwise get more and more negative modifiers by trading with him.
We should also look to take a side in the Freddy-Monty conflict. An idea would be to declare on Frederick and buy a nice dog pile. He has the weakest civ, so will never give us much, but could serve as source for mutual struggle points.

One of our work boats has just discovered 2 goody huts and an interesting barb city in the north. At least our now useless scout should hop on a galley soon and look after the goody huts. But the barb city would also be a possible goal.
I would recommend to not trade our map away before. Buy maps with techs or money.

OK, I've had time to load the save and look it over.

I don't see any good reason for an excursion to conquer barbarians in the far north (or far south). The value of these faraway cities isn't that much. (It looks like the barbarian city wouldn't give us access to silver---we would have to build a 2nd city for that.)

On the other hand, it certainly makes sense to transport our scout overseas and let it explore. If we can pop some huts, so much the better. We have some chance to get Music from a hut, right?

I don't see any strong reason to attack Canterbury, either. It's never going to be hard to take this city (we wll have catapults). It will be a long time before it causes us any substantial inconvenience. We could attack if we have to, but I don't see the need. Novgorod will have a library reasonably soon, so it will have plenty of culture in its territory. And Yaroslavl isn't going to expand very soon, whether or not Canterbury does.

If we want to expand, I'd rather expand by attacking someone nearby who has some really good cities for us to take. Alexander looks like a good candidate. (Maybe Hatty after that?) So I certainly agree we can go ahead and cancel deals with Alexander. We can also try to get others in the Alexander war, for diplomatic benefits.

If we want to pick sides between Frederick and Montezuma, why not support Frederick? He's small, but so is Montezuma. At least Frederick likes us. We can make our friends bigger, later, by giving them cities we don't particularly want.

It makes sense to me not to give away our map. We can always get maps along with gold for some of our miscellaneous techs.

I will get COL from someone. It doesn't seem that anyone will trade us HBR yet, but, we can just wait.

It might be a good idea to research Education directly. If we don't mind delaying the next GS a bit, I would like to emphasize growth more in St Petersburg for a few turns---it's not really fulfulling its potential. I will post city-specific development thoughts in the next message.

If we cancel stone-for-wine with Louis, and fish-for-cows with Alex, then we might be able to trade stone to Mao or Mansa for corn and cows, and trade gems to Louis for the wine. We will also have more gems coming online pretty soon, so I might trade our last gems for silk (that's one less happiness in Moscow, but no big deal for now).

Specific city by city comments:

1. Moscow has plenty of growth potential. I'm tempted to move the engineer to a coast tile, to grow faster. The difference between +3 fpt and +5 fpt is substantial. But maybe this can wait until after Colossus.

2. St Petersburg can also grow a lot. I will move a citizen to the spice plantation. Again, I'm tempted to remove the specialists for a few turns to accelerate growth. But I probably won't, because the scientists with academy are too valuable. I will definitely switch production to forge. Hindu temple seems of minimal value, and we only have 4 hammers in it.

3. Novgorod can rush a library now for 2 pop, or wait 4 turns and rush it for 1 pop. What next? Forge? Market? Building infrastructure, with poprushes only, is going to be slow going. I'm tempted by forge, to make future poprushes more powerful, plus happiness bonus, plus a possible engineer specialist. Market might also be useful, but, perhaps that should follow.

4. (EDIT) I think Rostov should switch to lighthouse. Library is half done, but that's a low priority here. After lighthouse, then either back to library, or maybe forge.

5. Yaroslavl can rush lighthouse in 2 turns, then start library. Given the proximity of Canterbury, I would probably build theater first, if we had Drama, but we don't (and neither does anyone else).

1) Moscow - I'd rather get Colossus out of the way first, then grow.

2) St. Pete's - Forge sounds better to me at this point; I'd keep the Scientists employed as much as possible

3) Nov. - I think Forge first

4) Rostov - I can see postponing a Library here; perhaps Forge, Lighthouse and maybe Barracks to give some other city besides Moscow the ability to produce Troops with XP.

5) Yaro. - Lighthouse/Library sounds good; perhaps build some Navy here eventually

The Jewish contingent looks to be a good place to start poaching; it would be nice to keep MM large and leading the board (after us, eventually) so he might be the other candidate; and just whittle his other brethren of the faith down.

This makes sense to me. Plan for MM to be the other candidate (gift him some cities, if necessary), and whittle down his Jewish support while generally helping the Hindus.

I don't see Alexander as a plausible candidate because (as mentioned above) I think he's a good target for us to attack in the relatively near future. He has some good territory close to our capital; his cities can actually make us stronger.

Well, we should first find the Buddhist (Saladin most probably).
Mansa might be in free religion and everybody's buddy by the time we want diplomatic victory.

I played just 1 turn then had to go out for a while. Victoria canceled open borders---annoying, but I still don't really want to attack Canterbury. Yaroslavl got Hinduism, which helps. With a library fairly soon, I don't see Canterbury causing border problems---unless she does something dumb like a great work.

I wonder if we should adopt Hinduism fairly soon, to cement relations with the other Hindus and also open up the option of Pacifism or Theocracy. In any case, I'm fairly confident we can be friendly with most of the Hindus while eventually making Mansu our opponent. If necessary, we can bribe our friends to fight him for a while, to poison their relations?

I wonder if settling another super scientist in St Petersburg is better than academy in Novgorod. We might eventually want to run merchants in Novgorod for income, and we won't be at 100% research forever. Super scientist in St Petersburg will be 19 beakers (with +110%). We might also eventually manage to build Oxford in St Petersburg?

Anyway, that's a decision that will be after my turns.

I don't think we want to convert to Hinduism soon. Hindu is the biggest religion, but not really dominant. We don't even know, if Mao will stay in it or switch back to Confucius.
At the same time we would worsen relations with our best trading partners. I'm still opposed to Mansa as enemy just to be able to be friend with a few backwards Hindu.
The natural enemy from what we see now would be Alex, but Saladin might also be an option, if we ever meet him.

Pacifism is not an option currently and theocracy would be of no benefit. Organised would be nice for some time, but only if we have the religion everywhere. But being not spiritual we shouldn't switch too much.

I don't think that we will run merchants any time soon and doubt that we will run them in Novgorod ever.
The need would arise only if we capture a lot more cities and then we might run merchants in cities where we captured markets for free, or we will prioritize commerce buildings if we get shrines somewhere.

I thought we were going to conquer several of our nearby neighbors in order to (1) get big and research faster, (2) have more weight in the voting, and (3) make friends and eliminate enemies through war. Also, if you want to make one of the smaller civs into the UN opponent, you are going to have to gift it lots of cities, which means you need to conquer lots of cities, right?

And surely, if we want to grow in an efficient way, Alexander is the most attractive immediate target. We can pretty easily add several good cities of his. And maintenance costs will be relatively low because he's close to our capital.

Anyway, I won't switch to Hinduism, or attack Alexander, or settle any great people, in my turnset. But these decisions are coming up.

Sure conquering is fine. But I don't see (maybe it's hidden in the fog) that Mansa or Hatty are good targets. Athens looks like a nice addition to our empire. After that I would rather have India (especially if Gandhi builds a shrine in Delhi) or maybe even China (also not enough information).

Also Mansa is currently population leader of the people we know, but he only has 7% of the population. This can change quite a bit.
Huayna has several cities more and is area leader.
Even low scoring Izzy may do something. She has a pretty big island in her backyard she could settle.

And we don't know how Saladin, Cyrus and America are doing.

I have found Saladin through map trading (he's NE of Egypt and E of Mali), and I hope to make contact by the end of my turnset. I expect the remaining powers are quite backwards; we haven't been trading with them, and there's also not much unexplored map for them to have claimed.

P.S. Is there any easy way to figure out who someone's "worst enemy" is?? It's a pain to keep getting penalties when I can't figure out whom I'm not supposed to be trading with.

P.S. Is there any easy way to figure out who someone's "worst enemy" is?? It's a pain to keep getting penalties when I can't figure out whom I'm not supposed to be trading with.
The HOF mod "glance" menu for diplomacy should give you that...

140AD save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Peanut_SG003_AD0140_01.CivWarlordsSave

Everything went pretty much as expected. Researched Paper, built Colossus. Research to Education is proceeding apace. Got COL, HBR, Construction in trade. Music, Drama, Feudalism are all known by others, but not available for trade yet.

I accumulated substantial gold from selling miscellaneous techs to miscellaneous civs for 30-50 each. I've been trading with pretty much everyone except Louis, Isabella, and Alexander. I haven't sold Paper yet, but it might be time to do that---no good reason not to, except to make sure we are first to Liberalism when we want to be.

I wasn't able to contact Saladin. The fastest way is going to be to land a scout in Mali, then walk overland to Arabia. I did load an axeman and scout on the galley, it's heading north to pop the barb huts (axeman needed to kill barb archers) and/or make contacts overland. There's also a fishing boat which can circle the Aztecs and eventually reach Arabia, but that will take a long time, yet.

I'm pretty sure the Arabs and other uncontacted civs will be extremely backwards.

I am saving the last two forests near St Petersburg so we can eventually chop them for Oxford University (since poprushing national wonders is not very efficient). Also, if we're lucky, maybe another forest will grow sometime. I'm chopping jungles around Moscow for eventual farm chains leading north and south from the river there (we might get Civil Service in the not too distant future, either ourselves or by trade). We should also eventually mine and connect the gems near Moscow, just for trade purposes.

I cut back on production in Moscow after Colossus, to try to emphasize growth. Once it's working all of the coast tiles, then it will start working mines again, and if it gets near the pop limit, maybe specialists. I have no specific build plan for Moscow---I figured the stables would eventually be useful. Maybe a university next. Or some catapults? St Petersburg and Novgorod should be able to rush forges sometime in the next 10-20 turns. Yaroslavl should rush the library this turn, probably. Rostov is patiently building a forge, by hand---never do any poprushing here!

Turn 165, 25 BC: stop jungle chop near Novgorod
Turn 165, 25 BC: cancel stone to Louis for wine
Turn 165, 25 BC: Theology to Hatshepsut for COL
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Julius Caesar for 90g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Louis for 130g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Tokugawa for 90g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Mao for 40g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Isabella for 50g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Frederick for 20g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Currency to Huayna for 30g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Math to Kublai for 20g
Turn 165, 25 BC: Cancel fish to Alexander for cow
Turn 165, 25 BC: Gift Monarchy to Tokugawa
Turn 165, 25 BC: Clams to Tokugawa for 2gpt
Turn 165, 25 BC: Clams to Mansa for Fur
Turn 165, 25 BC: Stone to Julius Caesar for silk, 2gpt
Turn 165, 25 BC: Gems to Mao for corn
Turn 165, 25 BC: St Petersburg builds forge
Turn 165, 25 BC: St Petersburg scientist to spices
Turn 165, 25 BC: Rostov builds lighthouse
Turn 165, 25 BC: Yaroslavl citizen from gems to coast
Turn 165, 25 BC: You have discovered Paper!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Hinduism has spread in Yaroslavl'.
Turn 165, 25 BC: Tokugawa adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 166, 10 BC: COL to Frederick for world map, 10g
Turn 166, 10 BC: COL to Gandhi for world map, 30g
Turn 166, 10 BC: Metal Casting to Hatshepsut for world map, 10g
Turn 166, 10 BC: 10g to Mansa Musa for world map
Turn 166, 10 BC: COL to Louis XIV for world map
Turn 166, 10 BC: Metal Casting to Mao for world map, 10g
Turn 166, 10 BC: Gift COL to Huayna Capac
Turn 166, 10 BC: Gift COL, MC to Tokugawa
Turn 166, 10 BC: Gift COL, MC to Julius Caesar
Turn 166, 10 BC: Gift COL, Currency to Kublai Khan
Turn 166, 10 BC: Open borders with Kublai Khan
Turn 166, 10 BC: COL to Victoria for 40g
Turn 166, 10 BC: 10g to Victoria for world map
Turn 166, 10 BC: Gems to Louis XIV for wine
Turn 166, 10 BC: Kalidas (Great Artist) has been born in Paris (Louis XIV)!

Turn 167, 5 AD: Louis XIV gets Music, won't trade
Turn 167, 5 AD: Yaroslavl rushes lighthouse for 2 pop
Turn 167, 5 AD: Montezuma adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 168, 20 AD: Victoria offers world map for world map, I decline.
Turn 168, 20 AD: Metal Casting to Gandhi for Horseback Riding, world map, 10g
Turn 168, 20 AD: Mathematics to Montezuma for 40g
Turn 168, 20 AD: Metal Casting to Huayna Capac for world map, 30g
Turn 168, 20 AD: Chuang-Tzu (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 168, 20 AD: Frederick has made peace with Montezuma!

Turn 169, 35 AD: Mao wants world map for world map, I decline
Turn 169, 35 AD: Hatshepsut has Construction, won't trade
Turn 169, 35 AD: Theology to Mao for world map, 50g
Turn 169, 35 AD: Metal Casting to Louis XIV for world map, 60g
Turn 169, 35 AD: Novgorod rushes library for 1 pop

Turn 170, 50 AD: St Petersburg citizen from hamlet to plantation
Turn 170, 50 AD: Monotheism to Kublai Khan for 30g
Turn 170, 50 AD: Yaroslavl citizen from coast to gems
Turn 170, 50 AD: Confucianism has spread in Rostov.

Turn 171, 65 AD: Hatshepsut offers world map for world map, I decline
Turn 171, 65 AD: Horseback Riding to Mansa Musa for world map, 70g
Turn 171, 65 AD: Horseback Riding to Tokugawa for 30g
Turn 171, 65 AD: Mao Zedong converts to Confucianism!

Turn 172, 80 AD: Huayna Capac asks for Horseback Riding, I agree
Turn 172, 80 AD: Mao asks us to adopt Confucianism, I refuse
Turn 172, 80 AD: Spices to Gandhi for incense
Turn 172, 80 AD: Peanut has completed The Colossus!

Turn 173, 95 AD: Theology to Julius Caesar for 40g

Turn 174, 110 AD: Victoria has Feudalism
Turn 174, 110 AD: Frederick has Construction
Turn 174, 110 AD: Calendar and Horseback Riding to Frederick for Construction, world map, 10g
Turn 174, 110 AD: Theology to Gandhi for world map, 30g
Turn 174, 110 AD: Metal Casting to Kublai Khan for 30g
Turn 174, 110 AD: Victoria adopts Vassalage!
Turn 174, 110 AD: Frederick adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 175, 125 AD: Gems to Gandhi for dyes

Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi has Drama

P.S. Here are a couple of screenshots.

I think we should rush the forges in St. Pete and Novgorod so we can put the overflow in Universities (5-6 turns from now). We could then either hand build the Unis with the help of engineers or pop-rush them soon after.
Then I it's time to think about Caste System IMO.

If we want Oxford we have to think about war soon. We need a strong 6th city (not a self settled fishing village) for the 6th Uni.
Athens or Delhi come to my mind. An expedition to Washington DC, with all it's wonders, would also be nice, if we ever find it :crazyeye:.
I don't think Egyptian or Mali cities are really attractive. They will have too much cultural pressure, so would need an all out war.

The fishing boat in Inca land can contact Cyrus (via Germany) in 6 turns and should do it.
The one in Spain can get to the Aztec border (also in 6 turns), though I doubt we get open borders. Arabia is probably best contacted over land, or even left to caravels. Sailing around all of Inca is taking a real long time.

I would rather have a water mill (16th hammer when not using engineer) on the only river tile in the capital. To chain irrigation to the land between St. Pete and Moscow, I would rather irrigate over the cottage north of St. Pete. It anyway hasn't been worked much and is costing us commerce currently relative to working coast.

Science is a bit tricky now. We need a trade bait soon, because we definitely don't want to give education away (and even paper is doubtful). Question is what are the others doing :confused:.
Machinery is a solid choice IMO. But philosophy, civil service or even engineering (Warlords note: trebuchets and castles with another trade route).

I don't think religion can help us in this game. We have 4 big religions and don't know of several civs where they will end up. Judaism has spread to Cyrus, so he is probably a Jew currently. But he may pick up another religion soon. Mao doesn't know what he wants to be. Rome has only one Hindu city currently and can switch any time.
And there are still 2 religions to be founded.

Looking on the land distribution, Inca has the most potential in the long run. It will take time till the jungle is hacked down, but then he has very fertile land.

Replacing the cottage 1N of St Petersburg is fine with me. (And, in that case, we should move that citizen to coast now.) But, if we want to trade food for hammers, we can always work irrigated plains (2f/1h, same as a watermill), or even put a workshop on a plains tile (0f/3h, with Guilds). I think it's better to have the flexibility of farms for fast growth when we want it (i.e., we have the choice between the 3f/0h farm or the 2f/1h plains or even a 0f/3h plains).

I don't think there's a big hurry to rush the forges and universities. I think we gain more by getting the cities bigger and working more 3c coasts. When we get close to the pop limits, then I would start rushing. I also still like the idea of a 2nd super scientist in St Petersburg, rather than an academy in Novgorod. The extra hammer will be useful too.

Good point about a 6th city for Oxford. Athens is the obvious target. We'll want to be in Slavery when we conquer it. I don't see an immediate need for Caste System. Do we really need more than 3 specialists (1 engineer, 2 scientists) in St Petersburg or Novgorod, anytime soon? Maybe once we have farms all around Novgorod.

If we aren't really ready to build universities immediately, maybe we should pause and quickly research Philosophy? It would be useful if we get Taoism, and even if not, it's still tradeable. Then we could go back to finish Education. I'm hopeful that some of the AIs are researching Machinery for us, although it's hard to know for sure.

EDIT: Another option would be to switch from forges to universities as soon as we get Education. Then we can rush the universities fairly quickly (next turn for 3 pop, or in a few turns for 2 pop), then go back to forge. We don't lose many hammers by building university before forge, since we get +100% for university anyway (i.e., there's not much difference between +100% and +125%).

Roster time!

malekithe
klarius
civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan
DaviddesJ - Just Played
Phabuk <--- You're UP!!

No need to be in a hurry; let's make sure we have consensus first.

Took a quick glance, so here's some comments:

Our best relations (+8) are with HC and Frederick. We have +7 with Gandhi. Our lowest is 0 with Montezuma.

Other high #'s. MM and Hattie are +12 and +13 with each other. Louie is +8 with Isabella and +10 with KublaiKhan. Mao is +10 with Alexander. HC is +10 with Hattie. Gandhi is +9 with Rome and England.

6 more turns to Education! And 7 turns to another GS. I assume we want to start saving the GS's for eventual use along the Astronomy-ScientificMethod-Physics line.

We know all the currently known Techs except - Drama (India), Music (France) and Feudalism (England). Learning CS and having Maces and Bureaucracy to benefit Moscow would be great; however, if we can arrange to trade for Feudalism and learn Guilds, our doubly promoted Knights would have a field day against mostly Archers. To have this option we'll have to improve relations with Victoria or hope someone else learns Feudalism (probably both!). In any case, I think Machinery is the next Tech to learn.

In deciding who to go for first, I think Athens, Shanghai and Beijing with all the bonus food sources they have would be awesome beaker generators under Caste System!

6 more turns to Education! And 7 turns to another GS. I assume we want to start saving the GS's for eventual use along the Astronomy-ScientificMethod-Physics line.

I think super scientist now (in St Petersburg) is worth much more than a lightbulb later. Even if we have only 150 turns of research left, the super scientist is worth 9*2.10*150 = 2835 beakers. And the hammer is useful, too.

Novgorod could easily generate over 40 base beakers now @ size 10 (in fact 47 if going all for beakers). This should still increase quite a bit over time.
So an academy should be worth quite a few beakers more over time than the super in St. Pete.

Novgorod could easily generate over 40 base beakers now @ size 10 (in fact 47 if going all for beakers).

Yes, it could generate 40 beakers, but, at the cost of significantly slower regrowth after poprushes. I still prefer the certain 19 bpt from St Petersburg (possibly increasing to 29 bpt if we can get Oxford University), which doesn't require any changes to what we're doing, and gives us an extra hammer too. If that extra hammer helps us build Oxford University, then that is significant.

But I don't feel strongly about it, and I think either choice is fine. My main point is that either of those is better (I think) than saving great scientists for Astronomy, Scientific Method, etc.

Note: if we do add the next scientist to St Petersburg, we can still use the next-next scientist for an academy, if we want.

Hi, I won't be able to play for almost one week (lost in mountains...). So don't wait for me, i prefer to pass my turn.

I wish you a happy new year in advance...

So malekithe is next?

Yes, malekithe is up, and we'll put Phabuk down as a pass to be inserted later. (Good luck in the mountains! :) )

Alright, I've got it. Sorry for the radio-silence this last week or so. I was on vacation. I'll post thoughts sometime tonight and hopefully get to the turnset sometime before midweek.

Hi All and happy new year.
I will be on vacation as well.
I will be out until 26.1, Please autoskip me until than.

Sorry for the delay, stuff came up (as it is oft to do when returning from vacation for some reason). I don't have the save in front of me right this minute, but I did look at it extensively the other night.

I'm planning on researching on with education and pop-rushing universities when reasonable in our larger cities (the 3-pop rushes sound good to me). After education, I'm less sure, though I'm leaning in favor of philosphy if it's still unclaimed (which is a bit hard to believe).

The most interesting questions at the moment, I think, are 1) figuring out how neccessary war will be and 2) how we will gather the neccessary diplomatic support? Alex seems like the most obvious military target, if needs be. But would that single war be neccessary or even enough? I think we should plan on spreading hinduism as much as possible with the goal of getting almost every civ without a self-founded religion to switch over. With that in mind, a few more monastaries may be called for before we get up to Scientific Method. Also, that gives a clear indication of which civs we should start courting and which we should ignore. Any civ that's founded their own religion (aside from Ghandi) should probably be left out of deals starting pretty soon. Of course, that's just one method for coalition building. If someone else has other thoughts, I'm open to alternate opinions.

I do think we should plan on moving toward Caste System in the near future, but that should probably wait till the majority of our infrastructure is in place. I haven't looked at things in enough detail to know when that will be. We will definitely want the extra Scientists at some point to be able to keep pace with our needed number of Great People. Pacifism could help there, too, and, I think, is something we should shoot for. It could be a ways off, though, depending on the speed of our missionary work.

What is the general consensus as regards a pressing need for additional military power? We've dropped to second to last in the power graph and could be seen as a ripe target. Does it make sense to sink more turns and resources into more chariots and axes at this point, or should we just risk it for a while till we're in a better position to start cranking out the troops (ie. more infrastructure in place)? This obviously affects the timing of when we'd want education to finish and could help us to wage war sooner rather than later. Overall, though, I'm in favor of continuing to press our luck and speed up the tech tree, only swelling our military when it is convenient.

I still think that attacking Alexander relatively soon is indicated for several reasons. Taking his cities will actually increase our research rate and get us to the UN faster---and the sooner we attack, the more help they will be. We'll have more voting weight when we do get to the UN. We can get favorable diplomatic bonuses by bribing some of the AIs (the ones we want to like us) to join in war against Alexander.

If we're still in Slavery when we attack, we can use his population to rush infrastructure. On the other hand, if we're in Caste System, then we can assign artists and get an immediate cultural boundary expansion. So there are advantages either way.

I'd be inclined to go for Caste System and Pacifism at the same time, whenever that is. But that also means spreading Hinduism, and also being willing to adopt it (with resulting diplomatic consequences).

I also think we would like to get a Great Engineer out of Moscow, if we can, and save it for the UN? What's the best way to try to accomplish that? Caste System, and/or Pacifism, will make it harder.

I still think that attacking Alexander relatively soon is indicated for several reasons.
What kind of timeline did you have in mind? If we're only talking about taking a single coastal capital, we could probably make due with 3-4 catapults, a half-dozen or so maces/knights, and 4-5 galleys at the most. Given the curent research picture, I'd lean toward that force being comprised of maces, not knights. If we want to attack anytime soon, knights would likely involve a research detour that I don't think we want to make. I like this scenario considerably more than any that involves waiting until astronomy, guilds, or engineering. We can begin bolstering the invasion force immediately (mostly out of moscow, with occasional support from other cities via the whip). The fly in the ointment (as was pointed out earlier) is how to protect our coastal resources (and will we definitely need to). Would it make sense to time the invasion so that we can have a couple triremes or even caravels available to patrol our shores?

What kind of timeline did you have in mind?

Probably, as soon as we can get either maces, or knights, or war elephants, or trebuchets, without having to divert from our main research path. It also wouldn't be that hard to just attack with swords and catapults.

Another advantage of a quick war soon is that we could get a level 4 unit, so we can build HE if we want.

The fly in the ointment (as was pointed out earlier) is how to protect our coastal resources (and will we definitely need to).

We could build one trireme. That's probably enough. I haven't been looking out for them, but I doubt Alexander has many galleys, and they may not be near us, and if we buy in a few allies in our war, he's just as likely to go after them. And he only has 5 cities, with none on hills. Once we take Athens and Argos, it shouldn't take long to mop up the rest.

I think we should first build at least 2 triremes. Then we definitely need cats and galleys. This part alone will need about 20 turns as only Moscow can contribute anything in this time frame. Even after that we don't need any additional military tech. If we can't build anything strong then, we can build units for upgrade.

So there is no need to prioritize any tech wrt going for Athens. I'm pretty sure we will have the ability to build maces before we have the production to really do so.

There is also another thing we should consider. There is this 1-tile island with goody hut in the north. It has 2 fish resources w/o need of culture expansion. A town there could develop very fast and later feed 5 scientists.

Just checking in. We're still a ways off from starting a war (unless we use Swords and Cats). We have 6 more turns on Education, although its been suggested that we not finish it until we're ready to build/pop the Universities; I'm inclined to get it finished and move on. We need Machinery whether we use Maces or Knights, so I'm inclined to research that soon. Philosophy would be OK; if we thought we needed the turns to give our GS's time to grow I'd definitely be in favor of researching Philosophy; OTOH, if we don't need those turns I'd rather let the AI learn it and trade for it later, which seems to be a faster path.

Maces should work fairly well for most of our combat and CS would help Madrid be a production center; perhaps we can build some units now that can upgraded later so our Power isn't too low. I wouldn't want to learn Guilds AND Feudalism to build Knights (2 Techs that are not on the straight path vs CS which is 1), but we might be able to trade for one or the other later.

I agree that Alex is our best first target, and I'm inclined to take on China afterwards; this would add 3 large population centers to our empire.

I've seen HC with a Trireme off our coast right now, so there are some of these vessels floating about.

Good Luck!

A city on the 2-fish island would be ok with me, although its maintenance costs are not trivial. This illustrates how we're going to continue to need Slavery---how else could we get a lighthouse (and hopefully granary, etc.) in a city like that?

I agree we're probably going to get to maces before knights. If we're going to finish Education promptly, then I'd be inclined to research CS next, rather than Machinery. It's hard to predict, but I think we're more likely to be able to trade for Machinery sooner than for CS. And CS gives us a more direct benefit---both in the form of Bureaucracy, and in irrigating farms around Moscow and Novgorod. Building units that can be upgraded to maces is ok, but, since we are going to need several catapults, I'd start by just building those (and 1 trireme, perhaps---I don't understand why klarius wants 2 of those---and a galley or two). Looking at all of the stuff we would still like to build, illustrates why (1) it would be nice to get into Bureaucracy, and (2) it would be nice to capture some cities that have some production capability.

Well, 1 trireme is nothing. You attack and you lose and are as bad off as with having none. So either build none and give up on naval battle or build at least 2.

Well, 1 trireme is nothing. You attack and you lose and are as bad off as with having none. So either build none and give up on naval battle or build at least 2.

If you fight and lose with your trireme (whether to enemy galley, or trireme), then you can finish the wounded survivor off with one of your galleys, which you have to have around anyway for transporting troops.

I'm not thinking about counterattacks in 30-40 turns, but about self defense now.
Both Mao and Alex are preparing a war ( "We Have Enough On Our Hands" when hovering over war declarations).
We don't know the target, but we are a likely candidate. Our relations are not that good that good that it would keep these maniacs from declaring.

I'm not thinking about counterattacks in 30-40 turns, but about self defense now.
Both Mao and Alex are preparing a war ( "We Have Enough On Our Hands" when hovering over war declarations).
We don't know the target, but we are a likely candidate. Our relations are not that good that good that it would keep these maniacs from declaring.
If they demand anything, then declining will mean that we are te target, with about 5 turns grace....

Both Mao and Alex are preparing a war ( "We Have Enough On Our Hands" when hovering over war declarations).

That sounds ominous! They have +10 relations with each other, so it's likely another target and we are pretty close.

Perhaps it makes sense to put off finishing Education to later and learn CS now; poor Moscow is going to be busy building our army, navy and anything else we need and Bureaucracy would really help. I like the idea about trading for Machinery later, also. (If the AI cooperates).

If they demand anything, then declining will mean that we are te target, with about 5 turns grace....

You're the one who refused, when Mao wanted Metal Casting (235 BC). I'm not sure why---I ended up giving it to him cheaply, later. I did refuse when he wanted us to switch to Confucianism (80 AD). That seemed too costly.

If we give in to a demand, does that count as "trading" for accumulating "you traded with our worst enemy" penalties?

We still don't know, if we are the target. And they will not attack if they are not ready, which still may take quite some time. It's not a question of one rejected demand.
On the other side it doesn't help to try to please them, if we are the target. They don't change these decisions.

Giving in to demands for hard goods did give traded with worst enemy modifiers in vanilla. I don't know if this is still so in warlords.
Giving in to civics or religion changes gives no bad trade modifiers to my knowledge.
The heathen modifiers we get from others after conversion are only temporary and vanish when we convert back to no-state. But it costs 2 turns of anarchy.

I think there is no use to try to please Alex or Mao now. They may go for somebody else (Alex may even attack Mao - he is that crazy), or they may attack us and we cannot do anything to avoid it now.

I expect that they will not attack with less than 2 galleys plus 1 trireme. They don't have open borders with Gandhi or Hatty, so any attack has to come in the Moscow - St. Pete area.

We do have open borders, so we can keep an eye out in Alex's territory for any ships. As I said, I haven't noticed any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Peanut_SG003_AD0260_01.CivWarlordsSave

I only played 8 turns, as we need to decide what direction to go with the research. I had hoped to be able to nab taoism by being the first to philosphy, but Mao grabbed it with a great scientist when we were 2 turns in. Now, we need to decide which direction to go. Alex has Machinery, so it may come up for trade soon. But, on the other hand, it's only 5 turns of research for us. I'm leaning towards it, but I wanted more input from the group before making a decision like that. Whoever's next in the turn order can make the final decision.

We had to deal with a lot of requests to cancel trading and switch religions or civics. For the most part I refused and the consequences don't seem to have been dire.

I haven't set the production in Moscow yet this turn after popping out a couple of defensive triremes over the last 8 turns. I'm thinking of building a few catapults or galleys, but that's up for debate.

I settled our great scientist in St. Pete's, thinking that, between the extra hammer and the bonus from the univeristy, it was better for us in the long run. Both St. Pete's and Novgorod have put their forges on hold while they build up the requisite hammers to 3-pop rush a university. That should be in 2 turns for Novgorod and 4 for St. Pete's.

We've made contact with everyone now. The last three were fairly backwards, though Washington not as much as the other two. For the most part, I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around what we should be doing diplomatically right now, and who it's okay to trade with. I look forward to a later point in the game when we've converted to hinduism, and our friends and enemies are clear-cut. Although, if anyone wants to try to determine who we should be trading with now and who we shouldn't, they're more than welcome.

Anyway, my notes:

Turn 0 - 140AD
- Switched Moscow to Trireme and reconfigured for production (growing at 3 FPT)
- Switched St. Pete's to Hindu Missionary
- Rushed Library in Yaroslavl for 2 pop

Turn 1 - 155
- IBT - Hatty requests we adopt organized religion, decline
- IBT - Vicky requests Open Borders, accept (might, possibly, upset HC a bit)
- Yaroslavl completes Library, starts a forge

Turn 2 - 170
- Meet Saladin; founder of buddhism, friend to no one (well, maybe hatty...), and technologically backward (about the same as Izzy).
- Mansa has Feudalism available for trade

Turn 3 - 185
- IBT - Mansa offers Feudalism for Paper and 1040 gold, decline
- Meet Washington; buddhist and somewhat backwards

Turn 4 - 200
- Moscow completes a trireme, starts another

Turn 5 - 215
- IBT - Hatty demands we cancel deals with Mao, decline
- IBT - Victoria demands our map, accept
- IBT - Gandhi requests we convert to hinduism, decline
- IBT - Frederick joins the confucian bloc (for now)
- Meet Cyrus; jewish, backwards, and disliked by Vicky
- Caesar has Machinery, but not for trade yet

Turn 6 - 230
- IBT - Mansa demands we cancel deals with Mao, decline
- complete Eductation and enter the renaissance era, start on philosophy (6 turns, should make good trade bait)
- St. Pete's starts a university
- Novgorod start a university
- Trade Literature to Toku for 70 gold
- Trade Literature to Alex for 110 gold

Turn 7 - 245
- Great Scientist born in St. Pete's, joined as super specialist

Turn 8 - 260
- IBT - Vicky requests we convert to hinduism, decline
- IBT - Izzy demands we cancel our deals with the japanese, decline
- IBT - Louis demands we cancel our deals with Gandhi, decline
- IBT - Mao founds taoism
- Our scout pops a hut, gets experience

Session Log:
Turn 176, 140 AD: Gandhi has Drama
Turn 176, 140 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 177, 155 AD: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 177, 155 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 178, 170 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!
Turn 178, 170 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Vassalage!

Turn 179, 185 AD: You have trained a Trireme in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Stable.

Turn 180, 200 AD: Frederick converts to Confucianism!

Turn 181, 215 AD: Julius Caesar has 1 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 181, 215 AD: Saladin has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 181, 215 AD: You have discovered Education!

Turn 182, 230 AD: Julius Caesar has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 182, 230 AD: Gandhi has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 182, 230 AD: Victoria has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 182, 230 AD: Carl Friedrich Gauss (Great Scientist) has been born in St. Petersburg (Peanut)!
Turn 182, 230 AD: Plato (Great Scientist) has been born in Shanghai (Mao Zedong)!

Turn 183, 245 AD: Cyrus has 1 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 183, 245 AD: Tokugawa has 2 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 183, 245 AD: Huayna Capac has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 183, 245 AD: Moscow has grown to size 10
Turn 183, 245 AD: You have trained a Trireme in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Stable.
Turn 183, 245 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 11
Turn 183, 245 AD: Yaroslavl' has grown to size 5
Turn 183, 245 AD: Moses (Great Prophet) has been born in Paris (Louis XIV)!
Turn 183, 245 AD: Taoism has been founded in Nanjing!

Turn 184, 260 AD: The villagers have provided your unit with experience!

I think we should trade for feudalism with Mansa (paper + WM + 440g). Then a quick run for CS (should be only 5 turns with both prerequisites).
I still think we should rather pop rush the forges first in Novgorod and St. Pete. The 25% for university are not that much that it would be that urgent to get it.

I have wondered a bit about the worst enemy stuff.
I couldn't find definite answers anywhere in the forum, so I looked into the SDK.

It's by no means easy to know who is who's worst enemy.
They have to be annoyed or worse.
The lowest internal attitude value. This is not the value you find in the game interface.
Who comes earlier in the list.There are hidden modifiers on the internal attitude due to leader features that range form -1 to +6.
On top of that there are also modifiers according to ranking.
The underdogs (lower half) generally give a +1 to each other.
There is another modifier so that some (typically peace lovers) don't like the lower ranked ones and others don't like the higher ranked. This factor is small so should only rarely give really a point and I didn't evaluate it exactly.

I enclose a matrix I calculated (hopefully correct) on the base modifiers between the leaders in our game.

EDIT:
Not correct and I delete the file. Maybe I get a correct version soon ;)

Note this is also important for diplomatic victory. If somebody gives somebody a +6, we need to have 8 or 9 (don't know who is evaluated first) more brownie points if we want to be voted for diplomatic victory.
The 8 instead of 6 is for aggressive AI, which gives us a -2 hidden modifier with everybody.

To get somebody to friendly we need 10 internal attitude. This translates to 11 (Gandhi) to 13 (several war mongers) as seen in the interface.
Friendly is not necessary for diplomatic victory, but an internal attitude of at least 8, so 9 to 11 as seen in game (plus maybe one for some underdogs not liking us on top of the ranking).

I think we should trade for feudalism with Mansa (paper + WM + 440g). Then a quick run for CS (should be only 5 turns with both prerequisites).
I still think we should rather pop rush the forges first in Novgorod and St. Pete. The 25% for university are not that much that it would be that urgent to get it.

I think you're up next, so you can make these decisions.

I understand the argument for Feudalism, but I think 440 gold is too much to pay. We seem to have a lot of cash now, but it can go quickly. If we have to start raising the slider to raise money, it's going to cut into our research quite a bit. Getting Feudalism now, will save us about 250 beakers on the cost of researching Civil Service. I'd rather have the 440 gold, and figure we can probably get Feudalism fairly cheaply at a later time. Also, trading for Feudalism now will make it less likely that we can get Machinery in trade soon.

On the forges, I think it might make sense to complete the forge first in Novgorod, but university first in St Petersburg. Since St Petersburg is generating a lot more research than Novgorod, while Novgorod has a bigger food surplus and might be in a better position to run engineer specialist. But I don't think it makes a big difference, either way. Building forge first, only reduces the cost of the university by 11 hammers (from 200/2.0 = 100, to 200/2.25 = 89).

Our production is pretty feeble. We probably should have skipped forges in Rostov and Yaroslavl, and just put those cities directly to work on building stuff. :(

Roster status:

malekithe - Just Played
klarius <--- You're UP!!
civ_steve
ainwood
MailMan - vacation to Jan. 26th, skip
DaviddesJ
Phabuk - skipped once

Interesting discussion on attitudes. Thanks, klarius! I have to study what you've put together.

I can see the argument to get University first in St Pete's.

Feudalism isn't a mandatory Research Tech for diplomacy victory; we would need it (and Machinery) for eventual Guilds and Vassal states. Are Vassal states desirable for diplomatic victory? (Like they are for Domination)

Vassal states are not really desirable. I read the rumor (didn't test it myself) that vassals would now vote for you in patch 2.08 for sure.
But they are typically small and don't contribute much.
On the other side you get negatives with the others for having vassals. I already now don't see how we ever want to convince more than 2-3 civs to vote for us, so don't think we should get another source of negatives.

I got it. Will play soon. :)

Our production is pretty feeble. We probably should have skipped forges in Rostov and Yaroslavl, and just put those cities directly to work on building stuff. :(
Rostov will actually be able to put out a fair number of hammers, so I don't think the forge there is a waste. Yaroslavl, however, I see your point. I seriously considered working on a monastary there or even a catapult, but decided to go with a forge in the end, hoping that we'd at least break even on production if we whip the city a couple of times in the future.

I don't think the forge is a very high priority in Novgorod either. Running an engineer is nice, but the city's actually putting out a fair amount of base commerce at the moment and the university will only help that. If we're going to hope for a great engineer down the road, I think Moscow is the only city with a realistic shot at producing one. As such, I'd prefer scientists in most other cities for now (and maybe a few artists later).

I agree with DaviddesJ that grabbing feudalism isn't a high priority right now (that could change if we come under attack, though) and not worth sinking cash into. We can turn 440 gold into somewhere around 700 beakers (over a number of turns, of course), which we will need to continue to fly ahead in technology. Once we're able to do a straight tech trade for fuedalism (or we really need it), I'm fine with it, but I don't think it's worth 440 gold for just a slight decrease in the cost of civil service.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Peanut_SG003_AD0425_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Summary:
Researched philosophy and machinery. Traded for CS and feudalism. Revolted. We are now ready to build up military in Moscow and Rostov.

Turn 0 260:

First do a little worst enemy analysis.
I don't really like what I see.
The people we like to trade, like Mansa, are always worst enemy to somebody.
The rather uninteresting ones, like Saladin, are not.

I opt to finish philosophy first.
I don't think this will come on the trade table soon and by that we get the opportunity to put beakers in liberalism, if we still want to wait for some new trades to come up.

Pop-rush forge in Novgorod and University in St. Pete.
I see no reason to delay the pop-rushes, if the overflow goes into another wanted building.
The cities will have to grow back w/o scientists for some time.

I trade a bit with our newest potential victims. None of them is worst enemy of anybody currently.
Most notably I can acquire map of Washington. Washington City isn't easy to reach.
We would have to go through Arabia or Aztecland. And neither of them would give us open borders currently.

Turn 1 275:
Not much. Check Athens with a trireme. No boats.
2 swordsmen, phalanx, axe, 4 archers.

Turn 2 290:
Look on Sparta. 2 galleys, 2 triremes, phalanx, archer. It may well be that Alex feels ready for us, when he gets another sword in Athens.
Moscow stable->axe. In case there are really swords coming.

Turn 3 305:
Nothing.
But Mansa has CS.

Turn 4 320:
Philosophy in.
Trade CS from Mansa for philosophy+WM. A rip-off, but now we don't have to research CS.
Revolt.

IBT:
Toku wants us to cancel deals with Izzy. OK, I don't think we will ever want to team up with the wrench.
Mao adopts vassalage and theocracy, so he is now really earnestly going to war somebody.

Turn 5 335:
Trade feudalism + 400g + wm for CS and philosophy from Hatty.
Set research to machinery now. Don't want to wait any longer.
We also have no trade bait if Mansa and Hatty should come up with it and it's doubtful that anybody else will still trade with us.

Turn 6 350:
Julius has now also compass, but naturally doesn't trade.
Moscow axe->cat.
Pop rush forge in Rostov.

Turn 7 365:
A work boat made it's way to Beijing. 4 longbows and one axe.

IBT:
Kublai wants us to cancel deals with Gandhi. Nope.

Turn 8 380:
3 civs have compass now, but nobody trades.
Rostov library->barracks.
Moscow cat->galley.

Turn 9 395:
Pop rush university in Novgorod.
Set research to liberalism, to get some beakers in already, hoping compass comes up for trade.

Turn 10 410:
Novgorod uni->monastery.

Turn 11 425:
Crash on first unit movement. I just upload the autosave.


We can and should now build maces, cats and galleys to go for Athens. When I last checked it had 4 archers - these will be longbows now, 2 swords, phalanx and axe , so that's no pushover.
We may want to go to Argos first and draw some of the defenders out of Athens by that.
Alex has boats (2 galleys, 2 trireme) in Sparta, so a counterattack is pretty likely.

I set research to liberalism. We anyway want to research it up to the point where we can quickly finish it when necessary. When we reach that point we hopefully can trade for compass, so we can fit in optics.
I still haven't traded away paper, so liberalism is still secured by 2 techs. So going for printing press first is also an option.

Roster status:

malekithe
klarius - Just Played
civ_steve <--- You're UP!!
ainwood
MailMan - vacation to Jan. 26th, skip
DaviddesJ
Phabuk - skipped once

So I've got it and will probably play in about 24 hours, or later if there's open issues. Plenty of time for discussion and suggestions.

That worked out fairly neatly! I think we can go either way - learn most of Liberalism then Printing Press fully, or vice versa, while we look for a Compass trade. Meanwhile, build Maces, Catapults, Galleys and look to stomp on Alex, probably Mao after that.

Is it better to be declared on first? Should we join the Hindu clan sooner or later? Perhaps before war? Or wait.

I don't think it's especially important to hold off on Compass to trade for it. It's very cheap. On the other hand, we might as well research Printing Press, and most of Liberalism, before Compass/Optics/Astronomy; I don't really see a downside to that. (We might as well keep the Colossus and Great Library working, for as long as possible.)

One advantage of a temporary reduction of specialists in St Petersburg and Novgorod is it looks like we have a good chance of getting a Great Engineer from Moscow as our next great person. Are we convinced we should save this for the UN? How many hammers will the GE give toward the UN? There are also other possibilities, e.g., Oxford University or National Epic. (Since we have chopped one forest near St Petersburg, I don't think we're going to have much chance to build OU by hand.) I do think we have a decent chance of getting another great engineer later in the game, one way or another, but it will depend somewhat on chance (i.e., we may get several great people each with a small chance of being an engineer).

How many hammers will the GE give toward the UN?
It depends on the population of the city in which you're building it. The formula on epic works out to 750 + 30 * Pop. So, at 20 pop, we'd be looking at 1350 hammers. If we can get a city to 18 population and be in slavery at the time, we can finish the UN in one turn with a GE and a rush (sacrificing a fair number of citizens in the process of course). If you can get the same city all the way up to 25, instead, the GE alone can finish the project.

I'm in favor of simply saving a GE generated in Moscow. I don't even want to think about what it would take to hand build the UN at the end of the game. While Oxford would be nice, I think it's too far off, in practice, to help us as much as a late game UN rush would.

I'd build catapults or galleys in Yaroslavl, right now. We'll want a university, eventually, but we don't really need it right now.

Moscow and Novgorod could really use some farms, to get their pop up to the limit faster. We don't have to work these all the time, just when we have untapped growth potential.

We might as well chop the other forest near St Petersburg, since I think saving one for a national wonder isn't going to be enough to make a difference.

If we want to increase our chance of getting a great engineer in Novgorod, down the road, we can do that by running an engineer every turn, and going back and forth between two scientists and zero, depending on health and population size. I.e., you get a higher great engineer chance from running an engineer for one turn, and then an engineer and 2 scientists for one turn, than from running an engineer and one scientist for each of two turns.

We're going to want to build our cheap harbors as soon as we get Compass. Especially in Novgorod, which is health limited. (And Moscow too, if we can spare the production from our war effort.)

By the way, I noticed on the progress page that we have the highest score of any team at this stage of the game (not too surprising), and also the highest power (which is a bit surprising, to me).

Power - what goes into that rating? Mostly military? I don't think we're especially strong.

I got free too late tonight to start this, so I'll be at it tomorrow. Plan to work the Liberalism-PrintingPress combo; even a few turns saved if we can trade for Compass later is useful. Otherwise, build up military as discussed. I think saving a GE to help with UN sounds good. If a GS comes along, I'd plan to save him as well.

If Moscow pops a GS, then I think settling it in St Petersburg, or an academy in Novgorod, are still reasonable choices. If we get a GM, then we could settle it (in Moscow?), or do a trade mission. We can discuss the choices when we see what we get.

If we knew we would get a second GE later, then settling the 1st GE in St Petersburg could be great. We could use the hammers to build Oxford University, and we'd still get a lot of beakers out of it. But, since we have no way to guarantee another GE, I do think we should save it.

OK, I have 5 turns in, and I've got to take care of some things on the home front. I'll finish tonight, but here's the status:

- Liberalism down to 1 turn, so switch to Printing Press
- Traded for Compass; Rome has Optics, so have traded/gifted Machinery around to set up possible future Trade
- Setting up for attack on Greece; Alex is building Longbows, and has 4 in Athens, along with 2 Swords, a Phalanx and an Axe. My thoughts are to get to 3 Maces (along with an existing Cat), land on tip of land North of Athens and start reducing the defenses, bring over another Mace and Cat after. So as soon as I can support that, I would load and ship. Thoughts?
- is it worthwhile to pop-rush in Moscow? On 1st turn I can get 2 pops to start and finish a Mace; on turns 2-4 it would take 1 pop. Only 4 turns to build it outright.

Here's my log for the first 5 turns, and a screenshot showing Athens' defenders

Turn 0 - 425 AD
Game opens in a Diplo page with Hattie asking for Machinery - we decline
Rostov finishes Barracks, start on Maceman for now
Julius has 2 Triremes that are at opening to our inner sea
HC has a Trireme in our inner sea, looking in on Yaroslavl

I decide to switch Novgorod from Conf Monastery to Galley, to help the War effort
And Yaroslavl from Univ to Cat, same thing
Both cities have lots of pop-unhappiness (35 turns for next pop), so we will avoid the Whip here.

St Pete's is working on Forge and will finish soon
Moscow on Maceman, along with Rostov

Turn 1 - 440 AD
Mostly Worker actions

(IBT HC wants to trade Map for Map, we agree)

Turn 2 - 455 AD
New Techs - Kublai Khan; he and MM will trade Compass, and he has some Gold
Offer Machinery but he wants Feudalism - OK

Turn 3 - 470 AD
Trade Compass to anyone with Gold; turns out that India will now trade Drama, so we pick that up as well
Only a handful have Compass and Machinery (to allow a possible Optics)
Egypt, HC, India and Japan might be able to help us if given Machinery
I give to India, Japan and HC, since they don't have CS

BTW, Rome has Optics already, so we might be able to arrange a future trade

Moscow finishes our first Mace and starts another
St Pete's poprushes a Forge (with 1 turn of unhappiness left from the last pop)

Worker has completed Road through English Jungle to connect our two sides of the Island

Turn 4 - 485 AD
St Pete's puts excess into a Catapult
Decide not to pop-rush 1 pop for a Mace in Moscow

Workers are putting Farms near Moscow and Novgorod

Turn 5 - 500 AD
With 1 turn left on Liberalism, switch to Printing Press and Save

Alex has 2 more LongBows (4 total) in Athens

end of log

I wouldn't have spread Machinery around, since it makes it more likely we're going to face macemen when we go to war. On the other hand, I see the advantages if we can get another tech on the way to Mass Media.

If we're really only going to research on the track to the UN, then we're likely to start to lag in military techs, unless we can trade for them.

If we can save a few turns by trading for Optics, that's good, but I am not too optimistic in getting it in the few turns before we can learn Printing Press (how many?). We might have a better chance if we now research Optics and Astronomy, and hope that we can trade for Printing Press by the time we finish Astronomy. How many of our opponents have Paper?

I am inclined not to pop-rush in Moscow, if we can avoid it. It can still grow quite a bit, and it doesn't have much food surplus. And we're getting quite a bit of commerce from coast tiles. When we lose the Colossus, then working coast tiles will not be as significant.

Machinery - I think 3 civs already had it; I did limit it to those without CS so we have a bit of a buffer. BTW, there's about 6 or 7 civs that are considerably backwards, so we'll have targets for Maces for a long time.

Printing Press is 9 turns away. Rome already has Optics, so it's up to what the other civs are interested in. No one else has Paper yet (I think), so Printing Press is still pretty far off for them to learn, and I think it blocks us from using GS's for Astronomy so we can't delay it for long anyway.

If I did a pop-rush, I'd obviously take from the Coastal spaces; it does seem a bit awkward to trade away all that commerce until Moscow is at the happiness limit. OTOH, if it gains us Athens a handful of turns earlier ...

If no one has Paper, then we're probably not going to get Printing Press in time, so don't worry about that.

There are backwards civilizations, but, if they are far away, we really aren't going to want to conquer them. Remember, no city razing allowed.

I wouldn't pop-rush Moscow. It grows to slow and loses to much commerce.
It's extremely unlikely that we would get printing press from the AI (lots of other things to research for them), so self research is fine.
We should fit in a harbor in the capital. It's cheaper for us than any decent military unit and gives quite a bit money. Novgorod (health!) and St. Pete also should build harbors soon.

I am back from the moutains and can play for the next turn...

A new take on the hidden attitude modifiers. Now also taking into account rank.

At long last, here is the full report. I took several extra turns (I wanted to see Athens fall! :) )

Turn 0 - 425 AD
Game opens in a Diplo page with Hattie asking for Machinery - we decline
Rostov finishes Barracks, start on Maceman for now
Julius has 2 Triremes that are blocking our inner sea
HC has a Trireme in our inner sea, looking in on Yaroslavl

I decide to switch Novgorod from Conf Monastery to Galley, to help the War effort
And Yaroslavl from Univ to Cat, same thing
Both cities have lots of pop-unhappiness

St Pete's is working on Forge and will finish soon
Moscow on Maceman, along with Rostov

Turn 1 - 440 AD
Mostly Worker actions

(IBT HC wants to trade Map for Map, we agree)

Turn 2 - 455 AD
New Techs - Kublai Khan; he and MM will trade Compass, and he has some Gold
Offer Machinery but he wants Feudalism - OK

Turn 3 - 470 AD
Trade Compass to anyone with Gold; turns out that India will now trade Drama, so we pick that up as well
Only a handful have Compass and Machinery (to allow a possible Optics)
Egypt, HC, India and Japan might be able to help us if given Machinery
I give to India, Japan and HC, since they don't have CS

BTW, Rome has Optics already, so we might be able to arrange a future trade

Moscow finishes our first Mace and starts another
St Pete's poprushes a Forge (with 1 turn of unhappiness left from the last pop)

Worker has completed Road through English Jungle to connect our two sides of the Island

Turn 4 - 485 AD
St Pete's puts excess into a Catapult
Decide not to pop-rush 1 pop for a Mace in Moscow

Workers are putting Farms near Moscow and Novgorod

Turn 5 - 500 AD
With 1 turn left on Liberalism, switch to Printing Press and Save

Alex has 2 more LongBows (4 total) in Athens
Save

Resume - upgrade Axe in Moscow to Mace
Notice that Vickie's Canterbury has a LongBow and a Mace defending it

(IBT - we top the world's most wealthiest nation list
MM gets a Great Engineer
America gets a Great Artist
Montezuma declares on Frederick)

Turn 6 - 515 AD
Rostov finishes a Mace, next a Catapult

(IBT MM finishes Sistine Chapel
HC insists we switch to Hereditary Rule; we decline, generating a -1 modifier)

Turn 7 - 530 AD
Moscow finishes Mace, next Catapult
Upgrade Ax at Moscow to Mace
Load 3 Maces and 1 Cat into Galleys and move into position; Triremes also

Save
Resume
Check F4 - MM has Optics and will trade
Wants Paper, WM and 290 Gold; we'll hold off for now
MM has -3 relations with Alex so the upcoming war shouldn't sour the trade

Turn 8 - 545 AD
Moscow completes Catapult, next a Mace
Cancel Open Borders with Alex and Declare; Land 3 Maces and a Cat on hills just South of Athens

(IBT Alex moves 2 Longbows and the Settler out of Athens)

Turn 9 - 560 AD
Moscow generates a Great Engineer - fortify for a later Wonder (like UN)
St Pete's finishes a Catapult, next another
Yaroslavl finishes Cat, begins another

Bombard Athens defenses down to 66%

(IBT Julius Ceasar declares on Hatshepsut
America founds Islam
Kublai Khan gets a GE)

Turn 10 - 575 AD
Rostov finishes Cat, begins another

Bombard Athens down to 58%
Another Mace and Cat loaded up for transport

(IBT Hattie finishes Angkor Wat)

Turn 11 - 590 AD
Novgorod finishes Galley, starts on Harbor

Bombard Athens to 50%
Drop off Mace and Cat
Gandhi and MM are now making Music available
Trade Phil to Gandhi for Music, 30 G and WM

(IBT America wants to trade WM, we Agree
Montezuma wants us to ally against Frederick, we decline
Athens is showing additional units - a Cat and a War Elephant)

Turn 12 - 605 AD
Moscow finishes Mace, begins another
2 Cats reduce Athens to 33%

Turn 13 - 620 AD
Learn Printing Press; Optics in 3; I'll do 1 turn on Optics, and get MM's money instead of the other way around
Victoria now knows Engineering

Rostov finishes Cat, begins another
Bombard Athens to 17% and land another Mace Cat

(IBT MM comes calling, and will trade Optics and 210 Gold and WM for Paper; we agree
Gandhi asks for Paper and we agree)

Turn 14 - 635 AD
Bombard Athens to 0%; land another Mace and Cat
We have 6 Maces and 4 Cats; Athens adds a Crossbow
Start research on Astronomy - 12 turns

(MM has Engineering as well)

Turn 15 - 650 AD
Start the Assault
1st Cat does CD and retreats; 2nd Cat does CD and is killed
Assess - most everyone is damaged except that darn LongBow with city defender II
3rd Cat dies, and puts some damage on that Longbow, but only down to 5.2
4th Cat dies, and puts serious damage on that Longbow - the defenders are decimated!
6 Mace Attacks later, we lost one Mace (with 85% odds), and have taken out CrossB, LongB, WE, Cat and an Axeman
Still showing 2 Swords, a LongB (that CDII one), and a Phalanx

Turn 16 - 665 AD
Rostov finishes Catapult, begins Harbor
Yaroslavl finishes Catapult, continues on University
Moscow finishes Mace, begins another

Hand out several CR2 promotions to our Macemen, getting some health back
Use surviving Cat for CD (it dies)
4 Maces finish off the last 4 defenders handily, move in 5th Mace for defense; we have Athens
set build to Culture

A Greek trireme has moved nearby;
set our Triremes to defend the next landing site near Argos
All Galleys (3) are in Moscow, load up a Mace and an arriving Cat into one of the Galleys
Save
end of log

So we've managed to pick up Compass and Optics in trade (along with Drama and Music). Liberalism has just 1 turn left on it; Electricity gains the most beakers from its use, but Physics is a close 2nd. Not sure if it was best to put MM (and Gandhi) a whole Tech closer to Liberalism to save 2 turns and gain some Gold, but I'm sure we'll pick up at least Physics as it stands.

Moscow got a GE, which has been stashed for UN.

St Pete's will get a GS during the next turnset; I'd stash it for Lightbulb duty, but not on Astronomy.

Athens has been taken; Argos needs to be captured before we can think of peace. I took an approach to minimize loss of Macemen, and built mostly Catapults during the Athens campaign. I've loaded a Maceman and a Catapult in Athens, and they can be moved over to Argos this turn if desired. There's a 2nd Galley which can take over some Chariots for additional bulk as well.

I set Athens build to Culture figuring we'd want access to their developed resources as soon as possible.

Greece's Trireme needs to be watched; not sure if he'll attack our Trireme (better for us I think), or go for our fishing fleets; in which case we can attack him with our 2 triremes.

Rostov and Yaroslavl just built so their builds can be adjusted easily.

Here's the upload log and a screen shot of the area between Moscow and Athens showing Argos' defenders.

I guess it's over to Phabuk! Welcome back from the Mountains!

Here is your Session Turn Log from 425 AD to 665 AD:

Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Hereditary Rule!

Turn 197, 455 AD: You have discovered Compass!

Turn 198, 470 AD: You have discovered Drama!

Turn 200, 500 AD: Charles Augustin de Coulomb (Great Engineer) has been born in Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Victoria adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Bureaucracy!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Gandhi adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Bureaucracy!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Frederick adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Organized Religion!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Miguel de Cervantes (Great Artist) has been born in Washington (Washington)!
Turn 200, 500 AD: Montezuma has declared war on Frederick!

Turn 201, 515 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 201, 515 AD: Cyrus adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Hereditary Rule!
Turn 201, 515 AD: Mansa Musa has completed The Sistine Chapel!

Turn 202, 530 AD: Julius Caesar adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Vassalage!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Julius Caesar adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Theocracy!
Turn 202, 530 AD: Tokugawa adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Vassalage!

Turn 203, 545 AD: You have declared war on Alexander!
Turn 203, 545 AD: Bi Sheng (Great Engineer) has been born in Moscow (Peanut)!
Turn 203, 545 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 203, 545 AD: Louis XIV adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Vassalage!
Turn 203, 545 AD: Huayna Capac adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Vassalage!

Turn 204, 560 AD: Julius Caesar has declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 204, 560 AD: Islam has been founded in Boston!
Turn 204, 560 AD: Henry Ford (Great Engineer) has been born in Karakorum (Kublai Khan)!

Turn 205, 575 AD: You have trained a Galley in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery.
Turn 205, 575 AD: Hatshepsut has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 205, 575 AD: Montezuma adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Organized Religion!

Turn 206, 590 AD: You have discovered Music!
Turn 206, 590 AD: Isabella adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Theocracy!
Turn 206, 590 AD: Saladin adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Vassalage!

Turn 207, 605 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!

Turn 208, 620 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Athens to 17%!
Turn 208, 620 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255St. Petersburg will grow to size 13 on the next turn

Turn 209, 635 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 209, 635 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Athens to 9%!
Turn 209, 635 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Athens to 0%!
Turn 209, 635 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255St. Petersburg has grown to size 13
Turn 209, 635 AD: <COLOR=153,0,255,153Rostov's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 209, 635 AD: <COLOR=127,255,25,255New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa

Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (11.70)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (6 Units)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has withdrawn from combat with a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (11.70)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (6 Units)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Catapult!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (11.70)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (6 Units)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Catapult!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (10.17)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 1.1%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (6 Units)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Catapult!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Crossbowman (5.58)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 85.7%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (42/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (22/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (2/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Crossbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Crossbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (5.58)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 85.7%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated Peanut's Maceman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (5.58)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 85.7%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (42/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (22/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (2/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's War Elephant (5.44)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 89.6%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's War Elephant is hit for 21 (47/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's War Elephant is hit for 21 (26/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's War Elephant is hit for 21 (5/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's War Elephant is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's War Elephant!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a War Elephant!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 95.6%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Catapult is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Catapult is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Catapult is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Catapult is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Catapult!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Axeman (5.40)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Combat Odds: 89.8%
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Axeman is hit for 22 (58/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Axeman is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Axeman is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Alexander's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 210, 650 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Axeman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 210, 650 AD: <COLOR=255,239,20,255Huayna Capac has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 210, 650 AD: <COLOR=255,239,20,255Mao Zedong has 110 gold available for trade
Turn 210, 650 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 210, 650 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a University.
Turn 210, 650 AD: Gottfried Leibniz (Great Scientist) has been born in York (Victoria)!

Turn 211, 665 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Moscow!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Catapult (0.50) vs Alexander's Swordsman (8.22)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Catapult is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman has defeated Peanut's Catapult!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Swordsman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman (6.16) vs Alexander's Longbowman (4.62)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 83.4%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (58/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 19 (39/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman (7.28) vs Alexander's Swordsman (4.00)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 97.2%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (76/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (61/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 25 (56/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 25 (31/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 25 (6/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (46/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 15 (31/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Swordsman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman (7.20) vs Alexander's Swordsman (3.77)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 97.7%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 27 (65/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 27 (38/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 27 (11/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Swordsman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Swordsman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Swordsman!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman (6.64) vs Alexander's Phalanx (2.89)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Combat Odds: 98.8%
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Phalanx is hit for 28 (42/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Phalanx is hit for 28 (14/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Alexander's Phalanx is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 211, 665 AD: Peanut's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Phalanx!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Phalanx!
Turn 211, 665 AD: You have captured Athens!!!

665 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3//Peanut_SG003_AD0665_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Game opens in a Diplo page with Hattie asking for Machinery - we decline

Why decline when they ask for help? This is a great opportunity to get cheap diplomatic modifiers. You get an easy +1 for giving them the tech. And refusing gives you a minus.

I set Athens build to Culture figuring we'd want access to their developed resources as soon as possible.

Usually, you should build a building. 2 hammers in Culture doesn't make very much difference, but 2 hammers in a building means that you can poprush it at reduced cost, on the turn that the city comes out of resistance.

In this case, we're lucky, because we captured the lighthouse, so we'll have enough food to feed all of our population when the city comes out of resistance. So we don't necessarily want to poprush right away (often you have people who will starve immediately, if you don't use them). So building culture might make sense after all.

We could build a theater initially, then rush it for 2 pop, then use artists to get cultural expansion the next turn. But, it looks better to build 2 culture, and then we can generate 6 culture the next turn (with 1 citizen) and 7 the following turn (with 2 citizens). So that gives us expansion only one turn later, and we don't have to expend 2 pop for the (relatively useless) theater.

So I agree with your choice.

Mansa Musa will give us Engineering, plus declare war on Alexander, in exchange for Printing Press. That doesn't sound bad. Getting people into our war is good, because it gives us positive diplomatic modifiers as the war goes on, right?

Radio is the most expensive tech we need. That would be the best use for Liberalism, right? But I don't think we can hold out that long. Even getting Physics may be somewhat risky.

I declined Hattie's request because I believe we will be at war with her sometime in the future and didn't want to help a potential adversary. At that point a -1 wont matter much.

Athens still has 7 turns before anything starts getting built. If Culture is best then its set; otherwise it can be changed easily.

I like the MM trade for Engineering. :) The extra movement will help units created in Rostov and Yaroslavl to get to Moscow faster.

I was thinking about what else we might need to research along the way, especially military techs. It makes sense for us to get Cossacks in play. Perhaps we continue along our primary path (Astronomy, SciMeth, Physics, Electricity, Radio and Mass Media) until we can get our Liberalism play done. We look for a trade for Nationalism and Guilds-Gunpowder, trade, then get Military Tradition uniquely. While we run around with our new Cossacks, we finish the remaining required Techs; perhaps some Great Artists generated with the help of Caste System come into play.

I would go for a pop-rushed library in Athens right away. We have enough tiles so that a few turns later for expansion doesn't matter much and should use pop-rushes efficiently.

I would do the printing press for engineering+war+money +WM deal with Mansa.

One thing we have to think about is what we do, if either Hatty or Julius asks to join their war.
We have to start to take sides, or will just end up with nobody liking us much, because we collect point by point of negatives.
Julius is pretty much a lost case already. Even if we would go into his religion and have a mutual struggle this amounts only to +6 on top of what we have with him. Peace, OB and gifting is already maxed. Together with the hidden -4, I don't see that we will get him to vote for us.
With Hatty the problem is, if we want to take her land for ourselves at some time :).
I don't think she will be the diplomatic runner up. Huayna or Toku are more likely to have most population at that time. She didn't found a religion, so it should be possible to convert her to anything with enough missionaries, if we go the religious route at some time.

So I definitely wouldn't join Julius, if he asks. And we should now really decide if we want to go after Hatty at some time. She would be one of the easier to convince leaders, if we don't tick her off more.

I think someone was suggesting taking on HC at some point, because he has a lot of Grassland (with Jungle, but that can be taken care of). HC is really good friends with Hattie and MM so they're probably a package deal.

I agree that we have to define our friends and enemies. For our next attack, I would recommend China after we take Argos from Alex. They have a lot of population that will benefit us, for voting purposes and for using Caste System.

The friendship (BTW they are only pleased currently though they have +12) of Mansa and Hatty towards Huayna is mainly based on religion.
This could be changed, probably easiest by sending some confused missionaries to Huayna.

But anyway I'm not so interested in another war soon. We should do some more with Alex (Sparta is a culture problem for Athens).
Mao would be a much tougher nut to crack and I'm not sure we want to invest this much in military now as we still lack a lot infrastructure.
Mao has highly promoted longbows, because of his protective trait and being in vassalage and theocracy. And the Cho-ko-nus can hurt quite a bit.

Edit:
Another small point:
I would get our triremes into our culture and upgrade them to caravel in pre-turn.
Caravels have better chances against trireme.

Using Liberalism for physics gets us a great scientist, doesn't it?

Yes it does! And if I read the GP Tech chart correctly, we can use that GS towards Electricity as long as we haven't obtained Gunpowder and opened up Chemistry as a researchable Tech.

We'll need Gunpowder for our Cossacks, so I think we should push along the Astronomy - Scientific Method - Physics - Electricity path and use as many GS's for lightbulbs as we can generate before getting the Techs to build/upgrade to our Cossacks. The remaining 2 Techs for UN (Radio and Mass Media) are very early in the Great Artist chart, so saving up a few of those to be lightbulbed at the appropriate time should be fairly easy to do.

We have 9 more turns to learn Astronomy through research only, and it will turn off our Colossus so the GS we'll get shortly in St Pete's should be stored for use later. Scientific Method turns off our Great Library, so it too should be researched directly with any GS's being stored for later use. About that time we have to see how close the AI is to reaching Liberalism and decide about GS's to use, and which Tech to learn through Liberalism.

Three probable scenarios:

1.) AI know Education and Liberalism is at risk - learn Liberalism, take Physics for free, and pop GS's to help with Electricity

2.) AI don't know Education yet, but we have some concerns - pop GS's and do some research to learn Physics, finish Liberalism to get a Free Electricity. I believe the GS from Physics can be used to pop Gunpowder if not already available (after Liberalism has been finished; that's before Gunpowder on the Chart).

3.) AI dont know Education yet and we have few concerns - use research and GS's to learn Physics and Electricity, finish Liberalism for a Free Radio.

We might want to run Caste System really soon. If we turn Athens into a Great Artist factory, we will counter Sparta's culture effect and get some GA's for use with Radio (if needed) and Mass Media. And getting a few more GS's would help as well, setting up a GS farm at Novgorod perhaps.

Cossacks are nerfed in Warlords, they are essentially the same as cavalry. I don't think they are worth a big diversion. We can clobber the AIs with the same units they have. I would be more excited if we could get the cossacks from vanilla.

It might be nice to get library and university in Athens before leaving slavery. One thing is that, if the war is still going, we may have enough unhappiness in Athens that we can't use all 8 citizens. In that case, switching to library now, so that we can poprush it when we come out of resistance, definitely makes sense. Although the value of a rapid border expansion to work the 2 clams is pretty large.

We get a free great scientist from Physics whether we use Liberalism to discover Physics, or we research Physics on our own. I don't think it makes much sense to use Liberalism for Electricity, leaving us with not so much use for the free great scientist from Physics. And waiting to get Radio from Liberalism seems too risky. So I think we should probably use Liberalism for Physics, and then the Physics GS toward Electricity.

Yeah; I didn't really understand why they downgraded the Cossack so much. I guess if I had to research one Tech to get a military advantage, I'd rather be going for MilTrad and Cossacks, then Guilds for Knights. Using the Physics GS for Gunpowder might work in that case (and Liberalism for Electricity), if we can arrange a trade for Nationalism. I agree that waiting until Radio is probably too risky.

I certainly wouldn't advocate researching Guilds. If we get a chance to trade for the prerequisites for Military Tradition, or Rifling, then we can think about taking advantage of that when it happens.

As always research is a little tricky :crazyeye:.
If Mao gets into play soon, by either him just declaring or Alex vassaling to him, we need knights. It's the only unit in reach that stands a chance against cho-ko-nu with all their first strikes (ok, a larger amount of promoted horse archers can also do, but have a problem with spears in the stack).

Guilds does get researched pretty early, but the AI is frequently reluctant to trade it. We probably don't get it in time, if Mao declares soon. If we have to research guilds ourselves, we should do it now, before completing astronomy and obsoleting the colossus.

I'm leaning towards investing the 5 turns for guilds, to be on the safe side towards Mao.

If not we have to be able to defend our Greek holdings anyway. City raider maces are no help for that. We need some longbows and active defense by horse archers and cats.

I agree it would be nice to have knights if we have to fight Mao. It will take quite a while to build any significant number, though. Perhaps we should build several chariots in Moscow (with stables)? Then we have the option to quickly research Guilds and upgrade them. (Conversely, if we were to research Guilds right away, aside from the cost, we wouldn't be able to build chariots any more.)

Another small observation:
We have no healer with our troops. Always a mistake :(.
We have a unit perfectly suited for the job (if we hadn't we should have build a chariot in Moscow for that). That's the scout in Moscow. Promote him combat and medic. And maybe upgrade immediately to explorer as we can anyway not transport him safely this turn.

I am back from the moutains and can play for the next turn...
BTW - I'm assuming you will play the next turnset?

Roster status:

malekithe
klarius
civ_steve - Just Played
ainwood - on Deck
MailMan - vacation to Jan. 26th, skip
DaviddesJ
Phabuk <--- You're Up (back from previous skip

Phabuk, please post a got it. ainwood is up next after Phabuk.

Phabuk, please post any question you may have. There's been a lot of discussion.

I got it. I will look at the save later.

I 've got already 2 questions/remarks:

1/ I agree to research guilds now in order to be safe in a war against Mao.

2/ Are we ready to gain Physics when we will finish liberalism, or do we still need any tech? If it is not the case, what are we waiting for ?


I know you already have talked a lot about this point and sorry if I missed the point...

1/ I agree to research guilds now in order to be safe in a war against Mao.

Yuck. :(

2/ Are we ready to gain Physics when we will finish liberalism, or do we still need any tech? If it is not the case, what are we waiting for ?

We need

Astronomy
Scientific Method
Physics
Electricity
Radio
Mass Media

in that order. Each one depends on the previous tech. We want to save free techs and lightbulbs for after Scientific Method, because delaying Astronomy and Scientific Method make the Colossus and Great Library work for longer.