Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Am I the first checking in?
How unexpected!!

Thanks Remconius for getting a nice set of team members and making sure I am one of them! :D

We are certain this will not be a short game, as we are going for a dilpomatic or space victory. Space is something I am familiar with, mostly I win by sending the ship first.

Our goal in this game should therefore be technological superiority, as for both space as diplomatic it is very helpful. Also, if we are going for diplomatic we should make sure to either have a lot of friends or be the largest empire by far so we can win the vote alone.

For the beginning turns I have no ideas yet, I will look into this later. Hopefully more have checked in by then ;).

Checking in for duty :salute:

Although I've done my share of diplo and space victories back in the days of civ3, I've only won dominations and conquest before in civ4. The mechanics are different enough that I'll probably need some form of guidance :blush:.

I'll start a test game with only diplo and space victories enabled to see how it goes.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/PioneerKnightslogo.jpg

Welcome to Pioneer Knights
!!!!warning long post!!!!

A little bit of history
We all signed up for SGOTM 2, with little or no SG experience. We did play our fair share of single player games and were motivated to better understand the game and have fun.
We were put together in a new team and struggled a bit in the beginning to come up with a name and some SG etiquette. Very soon we pulled together and got the game going. Unfortunately 3 of the initial 7 did not stay until the end. The other 4 pulled the game through to a respectable victory overcoming some amazing odds. The ring island had united under one religion and we were careful to avoid the whole world declaring on us. We used precision striking to make a dent in an advance opponent. We took on Hatty from the sea while she had destroyers and machine guns and we had galleons and grenadiers. Precision striking was massing precision strike forces outside several of her lightly defended coastal cities. We declared, then landed on forest and/or hill squares next to her cities. The next turn we took over a number of cities before she could retaliate.
Check out this save if you want to have some fun:
1700 save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/Pioneer_Knights_SG002_AD1700_01.Civ4SavedGame) (We declared in 1715 I think)

Lessons learned
Some learning points we gathered from the previous game.
-Random factors can have a big influence.
-Do more test games before starting.
-Play slower, especially in the beginning. Pause when unexpected things happen.
-Go for IW if you don’t have copper, before building a remote city
-If you need lots of science, focus on getting GS.
-Religion is a viable option (sometimes).
-The earlier you attack, the weaker the opposition.
-In domination there is no need to build a commerce base like we did. Start as early as possible and raze lots.
-If you have high food, low production cities, whip more and even overwhip compensating with cheap units for happiness.

Guidelines
I put together a few ideas from the previous thread. Most are pretty straight forward, but if you have a different view, let us know.
-Captain: Remconius
-Scribe: to be assigned. Let us know if you are interested. Basic task is to write up the spoilers; a compilation from the turn reports
-Turns – First 30, Second 20, Third 20 and then 10 from there onwards.
-Skipping – If can not play, please ask for a skip or swap, to avoid unneeded waiting.
-Playing – 24 hrs got it / 48 hrs to play. Please don’t pick up the game and play when the plan is still open for discussion. In this case make a summary of what you intend to do and wait for a few responses before playing. If no response is received for 24 hrs, go ahead and play.
-Discussion – Active discussion is what makes a SG, don’t hesitate to post your views. Through discussion we can agree on what approach we will take before playing
-Report / screenshots – We lacked a bit in this area. SG is also about lurking and creating a fun to read report. Also, some people (like me) read this forum at work where we don’t have access to the game. Let’s make an attempt to post at least the log of the new HOF autolog feature, some screenshots and comments about decisions taken for the next player.

Our Leader: Peter of the Russians

Technologies
We start with Mining and Hunting

Philosophical
+100% GP birth rate
Double production speed of University.
Expansive in 2.08:
+2 health in all cities
+50% hammers when building workers
double production on Granary and Harbor

Unique building - Research Institute
(replaces Laboratory), available with Computers
Stats are identical as for Laboratory, but adds
+2 free scientist specialists

Unique Unit - Cossack
2.08 stats (replaces cavalry), available with Military Tradition
15 strength, movement 2, cost 180 hammers (on epic)
Doesn't receive defensive bonuses
Can withdraw from combat (30% chance)
+50% attack vs Cannon
+50% attack vs Mounted Units

Roster
-Remconius (checked in)
-Redemption438
-MrWhite (checked in)
-Wanderer
-Berserks01 (checked in)
-Strauss (checked in)
-GarretSidzaka

Absent periods
You can let us know in advance if you will be away for a certain period. I’ll track it here.

Victory:
Diplomatic vs Space Race

Diplomatic – Our enemies are many and aggressive so achieving a ‘true’ diplomatic victory will be tough. Diplomacy through warfare is the way I guess, winning the vote by having the majority vote in hand. Tricky part is that we cant raze cities. Fast conquest will kill the economy, by the time we are close to majority vote we could also be at the domination threshold. To be tested…

Space Race
Cant imagine the Space race to be faster, but it would be easier. We’d need loads of science, which Peter is quite suitable for. He’s philosophical which helps GPP, so a GS focused specialist strategy should be good. That means going for a Writing, Literature, Education and Computers. Out laboratory gives 2 free scientists. That in combination with Representation, mercantilism, Caste System Pacifism, in high food cities could generate a lot of science and GSs. We’ll need warfare too though, to create room in this crowded map.

Both strategies should be tested before we start, to get a feel for the settings.

Strategy
Read about this strategy ( http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.php) and I think it’s very good. The idea is to research BW (we have mining) and building Worker, worker, settler. The first worker chops the second one and they both chop the settler. Cost 3 forests which is a huge production boost. Growing the city first is not very beneficial as it only adds 1P, chopping is far better (especially, adding in the fact we build workers/settlers at 50% cost). Chances are we are on an island alone and we don’t need defense early (we could probably fogbust the whole island. The second city would still be low maintenance and we’d have two cities to grow and focus on science.

Opening moves
To be decided.

Build Order
Moscow: worker, worker, settler (?)
We have cheap granaries, harbors and universities. Let’s prioritise those.

Research path
-BW, Writing, Alphabet, Literature, Education, computers.
-We also need fishing, sailing, agriculture (farms to have specialists) or pottery (for cottages/granaries)

Religion
Early religion for happiness or not?
Could be quite powerful…

Civics
Bureaucracy? Do we go for HR?
Specialist strategy: Pacifism, Mercantilism, Caste System, representation

Expansion plan (dotmap)
tbd

War plan
tbd

National Wonders plan
Forbidden Palace -
Globe Theater -
Heroic Epic -
Iron Works -
National Epic -
Oxford University -
Red Cross -
Wall Street -

World Wonders
-Should we go for Pyramids, Oracle?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will try to maintain an overview of all our ideas and repeat the section above on a regular basis. Everything is open for discussion. This is supposed to act as a status update of where we are in the process, not the final verdict. It worked well for the previous game, especially in the beginning.

Welcome message:
Let’s see who we all are.
Name, age, City, Country, Timezone, Civ background, …

Who am I: Remco, age 32, live in Amstelveen, Netherlands. Timezone GMT +1.
Civilization: Played Civ since the original series. Started succession gaming in SGOTM2, and have since played almost a dozen SGs for Civ IV in the last months.
Personal: Happily married, 2 kids (nr 3 in progress). Employed as a Project Manager for a Baby food Company.

Looking forward to having a fun game!

Sorry for making this such a long post….

Who am I: Yannick Straus, live in Reuver, the Netherlands, GMT+1
Civilization: Played Civ since Civ3. Started succession gaming in January and have since played 15+ SG's for Civ IV.
Personal: I believe I am the youngest member of this team at only 17 years. This means I'm still in high school, doing the IB-course and focussing on economics.

Hey, I did IB. In International College of Spain (Madrid).

Who am I: Andy, live in Boston, Massachusetts, GMT-7
Civilization: Played Civ since Civ3. Started succession gaming since Civ3. Dunno what my total SG games are, probably in the 20s (for both civ3 and civ4).
Personal: About 31, happily married with a 6 month old daughter. Work as a Senior Engineer for VeriSign (used to be m-Qube, but was recently acquired by VeriSign).

While we wait for others to check in, I suggest we all start a test game with the settings for this game. To get a feel for the way it plays:

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Let us know what you find.

About world wonders, since this is an island map, shouldn't it be cool to have things like The Colossus and / or Great Lighthouse?
They are better then the Oracle at least in my opinion.

The plans for early expansion sounds good. We need to get a very good start if we are to win this game. I'm not even starting to thing about getting laurels. :p I will read the strategy guide.

Is there anyone who can make a test game which we can all play, to see what problems arise and what possibilities we each take to solve them? And what strategy seems best off course.
I propose we all try the early growth strategy on this map to see if it feels good.

A more detailed background of who I am:
Niels de Wit, age 28, living in Nieuwegein, The Netherlands, so also timezone GMT +1.

In my younger years :p I was fanatically addicted to the original civ, to the point of living with it... my holidays consisted of eating, playing civ, sleeping and then repeat. Not very helthy maybe, but I was young and it was fun. I din't play civ 2 or 3 that much, but civ 4 seems to have me hooked again, although I can't play as much as in highschool.
Now I have some more important things to worry about: my job as financial accountant for an IT company and lots of friends. As for some reason I have lots of friends in Belgium I am currently searching for a job in that direction and thinking about moving there.

MY SG experience stops at SGOTM2, but it was a fun experience!

I'll try to make a start position.

Here it is:
18 civs according to the settings specified and with the starting position in the screenshot:
143108

Started playing the save yesterday:

Here are some preliminary conclusions:
-We need fishing and sailing soon to meet all civs. We need writing for this to sign OB. Then we can send out 2-4 galleys for exploration.
-With Writing we can build a library and assign Moscow to two permanent scientists (it has lots of food on starting position)
-Moscow has lots of food, but no hammers if forests are chopped. Tried to build the GL in Moscow, but it was near impossible without hammers. still in production will let you know if I can get it.
-Trading techs are very valuable: writing, alphabet, currency and paper.
-Religion might be good. We run into happiness problems soon, religion would help. Also there are only 7 religions and 18 civs if we can get 1 religion we should be able to make lots of friends, even going for diplomatic. We could try one of the early ones, or get a scientist for philosophy.
-Two workers in the early phase is an overkill, we only have a few forests to chop and nothing else to do. One worker is enough.
-Fishing boats early are powerful.
-Slavery/chopping is useful to get things completed.
-If there is food near second city (in the test game there is fish, but we dont know this) it will have two mines and be good for prodution.
-It might be good to use the first settler to settle on a near island to secure a resource or two, especially happiness.

More later.

In my test game, I found it difficult to decide what to research early.
As I didn't meet anyone to trade with, I didn't beeline for Alphabet as I do often, but instead tried to find what techs I needed soon. This was mostly focussed on what I needed at that moment and not on any plan. So I think we should really plan ahead in what techs we want early.

Also, later I found that getting expensive techs pays off as you can almost always trade it for the cheap techs with extra cash.

And already so much to read! ;)

Me: Charlie, 36, a stressed academic in London, =GMT.

This SG will be a good excuse for me to learn the tricks of Warlords. I bought the CD about 6 weeks ago, just before a lot of work came in to crash my civ time. But I should be able to keep up my turnsets.

Experience is bits of Civ2, 3, and 4, but I only really started thinking about things in Civ4.

Looking forward to the challenge! The diplomacy vs. space race is an interesting decision. :confused:

Hello everyone! I'm glad to be on the team. :) I played civ4 SGOTM 1.

and i try to make mods. :p

My very first hurdle, I couldn't decide whether to go for space or diplo so I couldn't decided on which tech path to take.

I noticed in a previous test games that an early religion is priceless since you make tons of friends and you see alot of land as your religion spreads. Also fast exploration, OB, and alphabet really speeds up my research through trading.

I tried an early religion yesterday. Missed Buddhism and Hinduism by quite a long way. Then developed Judaism till one turn to complete, but didnt finish. AI discovered it 2 turns later. This leads me to believe, that buddhism and Hindu is near impossible and Judaism is possible, but highly risky.

Then I experimented with Philosophy from a GS. That is very possible but takes some careful planning. Fastest attempt, I got it in 760BC.
Tech path: Fishing, AH, Writing, Drama, Mysticism, Meditation, Mathematics. GS prefers mathematics so we need that before it lights up.

We dont need fishing and might even do without, but it is the fastest way to get some food/commerce going. With two clams we can run two scientists and grow. In my test game I got the first GS to build an academy and used the second one for Philosophy. Added benefit of philosophy is pacifism which gives two scientists 18 GPP. Then we add a LH and Taoist temple and add a priest for 27 GPP. We can turn Moscow into a GP factory pretty fast. With this strategy we make a big science leap. I was lagging in score though. I also didnt need a worker (no BW and nothing to mine/camp). Then we can build national epic (+100& GPP) and another wonder (+50%GPP). Each GP adds 14 GP?

I dont know what the consequence is of not going for worker/BW immediately. We might be able to make a combined strategy of worker/BW and writing/library/GSs.

I think it would be a good start to rush for writing and build a library. Whether we go for Philosophy is a second discussion.

Another idea. Lets send out 2-3 workboats to meet our neighbours. They are cheaper than galleys and will be so far away from the mainland that they wont need to carry troops.

Summary
-Philosophy is the best way to get an early religion. Added benefit of pacifism fits nicely with Peter philosophical trait.
-With two clams we can run two scientists always. Moscow will be good GP factory, not much other use (low hammers).
-We need a second city to get any kind of production going. Ie to build exploration workboats.
-Cheapest way to explore is with workboats. Means we dont need sailing early.
-Do we want capital to be Taoist capital
-Do we need to grab resources on nearby islands?
-Not sure how soon we need worker/BW.
-Initial build warrior switched to Fishing boat after 8 turns. Initial hammers were lost.
-If a forest grows on the plains hill sure helps production. We can only hope that we have Copper, iron or horses in the capital for extra production.

:cool:IDEA:
If there is food up north we could build the capital there, chop a settler and build our second city on the starting spot. This will increase our bureaucracy bonus, and we can make the second city into a GP factory (useless for anything else).... Of course we dont know which hidden resources are on initial site.

Looking at the larger picture, I'm thinking we'd only fit 2 cities on that island. So sailing will help get spread our "influences" to the other islands.

I agree we need sailing, but when....

Do remember, we dont know if we are on a tiny island or a connected landmass.
I still feel we should explore with fishing boats because they are cheaper and will be en route for a long time before returning home. We'll need a "ferry" galley near Moscow to move settlers and workers around near Moscow.

1. We could go fishing / sailing. Meanwhile building a settler and have a city on another island on turn 30.
2. We could focus on the library/philosophy strategy and in the meanwhile colonize our island. Go elsewhere later.

I guess it depends on who is on the islands next to us. An empty island can be acquired later. To an inhabited island we might need to send an early settler. Information is key, so we need to send an early workboat to sail around and explore nearby island asap (maybe even before fishing the first clams)

Check it out:

Gyathaar has updated the picture of the starting position, we now have a blue circles. And they are different than my creation. I'll see if I can adjust it to see where resources might be :D

For the capital position, how about the first player move the scout onto one of those hills and then save game to send us all a screenshot? Will be easier to discuss with full info.

Good research on the religion question, remconius. :goodjob: Philosophy is a good option if we can manage it.

Otherwise, with 17 rivals, I agree with the workboat exploration. I also think we should eliminate 2-3 nearby AIs as soon as possible, before many people have contact with each other. The extra territory will be a huge boost.

I.e., settler and military expansion first, technology later.

Hopefully I can play another testgame tonight.
I don't think we should go for military in the beginning, except if we are short on space. We do need enough cities to have a good production (for spaceship production). Also we should develop a fast science rate, so we can profit from trading techs.

From Remconius' post, I get the following tech path:
Fishing (fishing boats) - writing (library) - Alphabet (trade) - Philosophy (religion)
We might want to put in sailing if we need to settle cities on newly discovered islands. Or Bronze Working if we need to chop wood / want to whip. Off course after Alphabet we can trade for those techs.

In production we should first start a warrior, change for fishing boats ASAP and build 3 or 4 of them in total. In between (after the first?) start a settler.

I think we can conclude we would like this start more then going for the BW / worker start.

So for me technology and exploration first, military later.
(sorry redemption, but I am assuming we are pretty much alone on the island ;))

Tech path is a little longer:

Fishing > AH > writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism (trade) > Meditation(trade) > Mathematics > Philosophy (GS).

The two religious techs could be traded if we are lucky saving turns.

Problem with Moscow is that it is very slow production-wise. We can never produce 3-4 workboats early. Without slavery and chopping it is near useless.

What I tried last night is:
BW first, then tech path above. Meanwhile building worker (with forest and spice forest to get +50% bonus from trait) Then chopping settler. To found near two hills (let's hope it has fish or other food source). This city can produce 3-4 workboats to explore. After worker and settler Moscow should max growth and grow to size 6 and whip 3 pop to complete library. From then on Moscow should assign max scientists for academy and philosophy. Moscow will be only making GS, growing slowly with just one hammer for a while. I'll try fishing before BW later.

Turn 1 (3970 BC)
Research begun: Bronze working

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Moscow's borders expand
Contact made: Persian Empire

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)

Turn 11 (3670 BC)

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 18 (3460 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

Turn 21 (3370 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Research begun: Fishing

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Contact made: Roman Empire

Turn 27 (3190 BC)

Turn 28 (3160 BC)

Turn 29 (3130 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 30 (3100 BC)
Tech learned: Fishing

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry

Turn 32 (3040 BC)

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Contact made: Greek Empire

Turn 34 (2980 BC)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
Contact made: Greek Empire

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)

Turn 38 (2860 BC)

Turn 39 (2830 BC)

Turn 40 (2800 BC)

Turn 41 (2770 BC)

Turn 42 (2740 BC)

Turn 43 (2710 BC)

Turn 44 (2680 BC)

Turn 45 (2650 BC)

Turn 46 (2620 BC)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Moscow begins: Warrior
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 50 (2500 BC)

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
St. Petersburg founded
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

Turn 52 (2440 BC)

Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 54 (2380 BC)

Turn 55 (2350 BC)

Turn 56 (2320 BC)

Turn 57 (2290 BC)

Turn 58 (2260 BC)

Turn 59 (2230 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 60 (2200 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

Turn 61 (2170 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 62 (2140 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 63 (2110 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 64 (2080 BC)

Turn 65 (2050 BC)

Turn 66 (2020 BC)
Tech learned: Writing

Turn 67 (1990 BC)
Research begun: Alphabet
Moscow begins: Library

Turn 68 (1960 BC)
Moscow grows: 4

Turn 69 (1930 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 70 (1900 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

Turn 71 (1870 BC)

Turn 72 (1840 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 73 (1810 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 74 (1780 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat
Moscow grows: 5

Turn 75 (1750 BC)
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 76 (1720 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 2

Turn 77 (1690 BC)

Turn 78 (1660 BC)
Moscow finishes: Library

Turn 79 (1630 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 80 (1600 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

Turn 81 (1570 BC)
Moscow grows: 4

Turn 82 (1540 BC)
Contact made: Egyptian Empire
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 83 (1510 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 84 (1480 BC)

Turn 85 (1450 BC)

Turn 86 (1420 BC)

Turn 87 (1390 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 3

Turn 88 (1360 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat

Turn 89 (1330 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Library

Turn 90 (1300 BC)

Turn 91 (1270 BC)

Turn 92 (1240 BC)
Merit Ptah (Great Scientist) born in Moscow

Turn 93 (1210 BC)
Moscow finishes: Academy

Turn 94 (1180 BC)
Tech learned: Alphabet

Turn 95 (1150 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism
Tech learned: Mysticism
Research begun: Drama
Tech learned: The Wheel
Tech learned: Agriculture
Tech learned: Sailing

Turn 96 (1120 BC)

Turn 97 (1090 BC)

Turn 98 (1060 BC)

Turn 99 (1030 BC)

Turn 100 (1000 BC)

Turn 101 (985 BC)

Turn 102 (970 BC)
Moscow grows: 5

Turn 103 (955 BC)
Moscow begins: Lighthouse

Turn 104 (940 BC)

Turn 105 (925 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Library

Turn 106 (910 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Lighthouse
St. Petersburg grows: 4

Turn 107 (895 BC)

Turn 108 (880 BC)
Tech learned: Drama

Turn 109 (865 BC)
Research begun: Mathematics

Turn 110 (850 BC)
Contact made: Malinese Empire
Tech learned: Meditation
Tech learned: Polytheism
Tech learned: Pottery
Tech learned: Archery

Turn 111 (835 BC)

Turn 112 (820 BC)

Turn 113 (805 BC)
St. Petersburg's borders expand
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 114 (790 BC)

Turn 115 (775 BC)

Turn 116 (760 BC)
Contact made: American Empire

Turn 117 (745 BC)
Tech learned: Mathematics
Marie Curie (Great Scientist) born in Moscow

Turn 118 (730 BC)
Research begun: Currency
Tech learned: Philosophy
Taoism founded in St. Petersburg
Taoism has spread: St. Petersburg

I am sure Gyathaar will have some twists and challenge lined up for us. A lot will be deciding. Are we alone, are all islands next door inhabited, how far can we sail, etc.

I agree with redemption we should start and move the scout, then post a screenshot. We can then decide to settle or move.

Game will be available in less than 24 hours!!!

Roster
-Remconius
-MrWhite
-Berserks01
-Strauss
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer (not checked in)

Absent periods
Please post in advance if you will be away for a certain period. I’ll track it here.

Victory:
Diplomatic or Space Race
Both need lots of science to get the required tech(s).
Diplomacy needs us to befriend / convert a number of our opponents.
Space Race requires more science and good production. With science lead, production is of secondary concern.

National Wonders plan
Forbidden Palace -
Globe Theater -
Heroic Epic -
Iron Works -
National Epic -
Oxford University -
Red Cross -
Wall Street -

World Wonders
-Colossus and Great Lighthouse could be very useful.

Research path
-Fishing > BW > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism > Meditation > Mathematics > Philosophy.
Other techs can be traded easily for writing.

Religion
Taoism from GS Philosophy.

Civics
Switch to Slavery upon discovery of BW.
Switch to Pacifism upon discovery of Philosophy.

Great People
Moscow: Upon completion of the library should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy

War / Diplomacy plan
Sign OB with everybody to make exploration possible.
Take out 2-3 nearby civs.

Opening moves
-Move scout and post screenshot.
-Settle Moscow in place, or move Moscow to hills-site and build St. Petersburg on starting position..

Expansion plan (dotmap)
Build St. Petersburg to include both hills if there is food….
When we traded for sailing (after Alphabet) we can build a galley to act as Ferry.
Exploration should be done with workboats (cheaper and will be underway for a long time)

Build Order
-Moscow: warrior (to grow to size 2), worker (with max hammers to get +50% trait bonus), settler, workboat, library.
-Chop 3-4 forests to complete settler and workboat. Dependent on whether we have copper or horses in the BFC.
-Whip library with 2 or 3 pop.

----------------

First 30 turns
Turns 1- 8
Work FP, 8 hammers to warrior, complete Fishing

Turns 9-11
Work FP, 3 hammers to warrior, research BW

Turns 12-16
Work FP and Spice plains. Complete warrior, research BW

Turns 17- ~29
Work FP and Spice plains. Complete worker, complete BW.

Turns 30 - Start Settler or Workboat.
Chop 3 forests to complete both asap.
With advanced MM we could build workboat and grow Moscow. Meanwhile we get chopped hammers to go to settler production. Or we whip workboat and use the extra food to speed settler production.

--------------------

I put up the plan above to reflect the Great Scientist / Philosophy strategy and other input.

Please post your approval / suggestions / criticism so we can get this game started tomorrow!

Shouldn't we start with the worker immediately?
I'm not sure if we will need the warrior and since growth of Moscow is not necessary in the early turns, we might want to start the worker immediately?
(so we can chop sooner, so we can build the settler sooner and have St Petersburg online sooner, so we have some serious production sooner :))

Maybe we should first test what the difference is.

BTW thx for the detailed plan, it is very nice to know what we will be doing!

I'll do a comparison tonight of worker vs warrior first.

You are probably right to go worker first. I'll adjust the summary after the tests.

i can do some good with the wars we have in our future.

Sorry for the late check in. Life is seldom quiet, it seems.

I will read, catch up, and look forward seeing how the Pioneer Knights will charge on to glory again

Game will be available in less than 8 hours!!!

Roster
Remember to create a descriptive report
-Remconius
-MrWhite
-Berserks01
-Strauss
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Absent periods
Please post in advance if you will be away for a certain period. I’ll track it here.

Victory:
Diplomatic or Space Race
Both need lots of science to get the required tech(s).
Diplomacy needs us to befriend / convert a number of our opponents.
Space Race requires more science and good production. With science lead, production is of secondary concern.

National Wonders plan
Forbidden Palace -
Globe Theater -
Heroic Epic -
Iron Works -
National Epic -
Oxford University -
Red Cross -
Wall Street -

World Wonders
-Colossus and Great Lighthouse could be very useful.

Research path
BW > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism > Meditation > Mathematics > Philosophy.
Other techs can be traded easily.

Religion
Taoism from GS Philosophy.

Civics
Switch to Slavery after we build settler to whip library.
Switch to Pacifism upon discovery of Philosophy.

Great People
Moscow: Upon completion of the library should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy

War / Diplomacy plan
Sign OB with everybody to make exploration possible.
Take out 2-3 nearby civs.

Opening moves
-Move scout and post screenshot.
-Settle Moscow in place, or move Moscow to hills-site and build St. Petersburg on starting position..

Expansion plan (dotmap)
Build St. Petersburg to include both hills if there is food….
When we traded for sailing (after Alphabet) we can build a galley to act as Ferry.
Exploration should be done with workboats (cheaper and will be underway for a long time)

Build Order
-Moscow: worker, settler, workboat, library.
-Chop 3 forests to complete settler and workboat. Dependent on whether we have copper or horses in the BFC.
-Whip library with 2 or 3 pop.

I put up the plan above to reflect the Great Scientist / Philosophy strategy and other input.
----------------

First 40 turns
Turns 1- 8
Work FP, 32 hammers to worker, research BW

Turns 8-20
Work Spice, 60 hammers to worker, research BW

Turn 21
Complete BW, start settler, start forest chop.

Turns 22-30
Chop forests, build settler, complete fishing.

Turns 22-38
Chop forests, complete settler, research AH.

Turns 39-40
Move Settler, Start workboat, research AH.

--------------------

Please post your approval / suggestions / criticism so we can get this game started tomorrow!

If we are on a small island, the first turns will be very boring, nothing to explore, pressing enter to complete worker/settler. My suggestion is that the first player plays 40 turns. Second player can play 30, third player 20, then 10 onwards.

I would be happy to start this game, post the screenshot, and play the first turns.

Regan , 33, London, UK, GMT, a Database Consultant working far too many hours on projects and supporting live systems. I mention this only because it can and will impact on my availability, although I was one of the 4 survivors of the previous PK game :-)

Civ 1, Civ2, Civ 3 (all expansions), Civ 4 (also a few games under Warlords)

Absent periods
20 Dec
22 Dec until 2 Jan

Victory:
Diplomatic : I've not managed this before
Space Race : I have acheived this in Civ IV, but only on lower difficulty levels.

Space Race requires more science and good production. With science lead, production is of secondary concern. Agreed - although we should have a strong military presence so that we can 'influence' other cultures ability to compete :D

World Wonders
-Colossus and Great Lighthouse could be very useful.
... if we go Space, then space elevator will help us, and (iirc) laboratories increase spaceship production in the city they are in?

Research path
BW > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism > Meditation > Mathematics > Philosophy.
Other techs can be traded easily.

Religion
Taoism from GS Philosophy.

Civics
Switch to Slavery after we build settler to whip library.
Switch to Pacifism upon discovery of Philosophy.

Great People
Moscow: Upon completion of the library should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy
I like it

War / Diplomacy plan
Sign OB with everybody to make exploration possible.
Take out 2-3 nearby civs. Bear in mind - not city razing, so we are going to have to live with those cities! Hecen, the earlier we can do it, the better, since that will give us more choice on land. A thought - we would ideally like to get rid of Scientific opposition - they are likely to be our toughest rivals. Talking of rivals:
(a) what's the chance they've been truly evil and put us far away from the rest of the civ's?
(b) so we are playing against all 17 civ's. How are our primary rivals going to be for the different victory conditions?

Opening moves
-Move scout and post screenshot. totally agree.

-Settle Moscow in place, or move Moscow to hills-site and build St. Petersburg on starting position.. to be decided (imho) after that first screenshot, unless the scout shows nothing of interest.


Please post your approval / suggestions / criticism so we can get this game started tomorrow!
I like the plan, but like any good plan, we have to see if it will survive contact with the enemy.

If we are on a small island, the first turns will be very boring, nothing to explore, pressing enter to complete worker/settler. My suggestion is that the first player plays 40 turns. Second player can play 30, third player 20, then 10 onwards.

I would be happy to start this game, post the screenshot, and play the first turns. Happy with that, but I do request/suggest (as you mentioned in the lessons learned) that we do frequent screenshots and discussions re: early moves, as soon as anything new/interesting/unexpected appears.

can someone link me to the practice map again?

Practice map is in past 12. Please note, the NW spice is grass in the practice map, but in the game is plains. So you might want to change that.

Going to pick up the game and post a screenie...

BTW, From what I read in other threads, Pioneer Knights has moved up to top 10 rank in SGOTM2. Not Bad :cool:!

It would be very unlike Gyathaar, if our pre-meditated strategy was valid through even the first turnset.

And yes after just one move of our scout all plans go in the bin:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0120.jpg

The second move gives strong arguments to go for plan B:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0122.jpg

Let's revise plans, before I continue. I might even adjust the test game to see how it works out.

Plan B: --provisional--
I think my suggestion of moving the settler and building St. Petersburg on the starting location is interesting.
We move settler to plains hill (where scout is) and found moscow there on turn 3. We can then build a worker in 13 turns... of course BW still takes 23 turns. So we can build a warrior and still be done with the worker in line with BW.

Of course plan A of founding on the spot and building St.Petersburg on the plains hill is also valid.

Time for more test games...

Adjusted the test game with this new knowledge:
143389
NOTE: THIS IS NOT THE SAVE BUT A WORLD BUILDER COPY

It would be very unlike Gyathaar, if our pre-meditated strategy was valid through even the first turnset.

And yes after just one move of our scout all plans go in the bin:

"The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!"

Stone!

(and nice use of Burns, Gyathaar... :hatsoff:)

I think putting the capital on the plains hill is a good idea, Remconius. We will be running bureaucracy for a long time and it will pay off. That city can grow to full size without any farms, so we can lay down some cottages plus mining the hills.

The starting spot will then make a good GP farm for a 2nd or 3rd city.

But wait! We should also consider placing cities directly on each of the spices. See the attached picture. This might make better use of our space. I know it goes against protocol, but actually a spice plantation is worse than a village or town. It's more efficient to plant cities on them to get the resource benefit, and build cottages on the other tiles, planning for the long-term. Or farm the flood plains for some early specialists.

In other words, after the plains hill capital, we can chooose between:
-a single city on the starting location, with lots of specialists but wasting some tiles, or
-two lesser cities that max out the use of tiles (and leaves one clam for a city on the next island)

In any case, we can wait on this decision if we all agree to put Moscow on the plains hill.

By the way, Moscow should be able to build the pyramids with that stone, yes? :)

Also by the way, when I said "military first" I meant after we build a few cities and make basic progress. It's a matter of when to bring sailing and galleys into the picture. If these islands are in general small, we will want to crush the weak AIs quickly and expand.

Let's take some time to think through all these options... much might depend on early decisions...

Practice map is in past 12. Please note, the NW spice is grass in the practice map, but in the game is plains. So you might want to change that.

BTW, From what I read in other threads, Pioneer Knights has moved up to top 10 rank in SGOTM2. Not Bad :cool:!
Very nice to hear we are in top 10 in our first ever SGOTM!! :eek:

About the test game, it would be nice to update it with the map we discover in the actual game. Maybe even make a test game with the things we know about our enemies!
That way, especially now in the beginning, we can test again with the new info.

If we decide to move Moscow, it would give us about 2 turns of more fog busting our island to see if we can better place our cities.

However, I see jungle up North, so we might want to consider leaving settling up there later.

On thirst thought I agree on building Moscow on the plains hill. But let us play some testgames before we make this already crucial decision!!

The plan of redemption to build 2 lesser cities on the spices sounds good too. This is another thing we can test. It woud be nice if the cities have enough food to make them GPP farms (both!! ;)). Then Moscow and other cities to found / conquer can become the production center(s).

Thx for updating the test game already remconius, I'll play tonight!

I can keep updating the test game based on future discoveries, especially horses, copper and iron.

Regarding two cities.
Does founding on spices give any F/P/C bonus to the city tile?
YES:
http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commercebonus2no.jpg

Are both cities capable of extra food for growth?

Regarding two cities.
Does founding on spices give any F/P/C bonus to the city tile?
YES:


Actually NO in this case. That bonus is only if the spices (or any other luxury) also have a river. Ours don't... :(


Are both cities capable of extra food for growth?

City on the 2 spot has good food because of the clams and the floodplains and grassland. Also, moving to the spices opens up the river floodplains.

city on the 3 spot is more uncertain. We need to scout. With luck there might be another seafood up there somewhere. If there isn't, the city would have barely enough food to keep growing (using one FP), not enough to run specialists.

We should check this in the testgame anyway. I don't know if little things like that are different in Warlords.

Remconius: There is one small difference between the game and the test you made. At least, the only difference visible so far ;)
The ocean tile beneath the fish in your test game is a coast tile in the actual game (so 1 extra commerce).

Just to let you know I pay attention and started the game :p

I did a test game with Moscow on plains hill and St.Peter on start.

Got Philosophy in 760 bc. Managed to get several workboats out and meet so many opponents that I could trade mathematics as well. That helped a lot.

I like it. Dont know if I like two cities, too high maintenance... Havent tested though.

I haven't had a chance we load up a test game yet, or review that article, but are we sure we want to have our 3 core cities this close? that will impact upon their eventual size.

Talking of early decisions that need to be made - we have to decide on our ideal plan for vistory.

Yes, things may change, but it all starts here - the tech choices, etc. etc.

My vote is: Space race if possible, else Diplomacy.

Having said that, my suspicion is that the fastest finish time will be a diplomacy one - but I have no skill at achieving one.

Roster Post a descriptive report
-Remconius (UP now, 40 turns)
-MrWhite (On deck, 30 turns)
-Berserks01 (20 turns)
-Strauss
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Absent periods
Wanderer: 22 Dec - 2 Jan
Strauss: On skip till return (Dec 8th?)

Victory:
Diplomatic or Space Race
Both need lots of science to get the required tech(s).
Diplomacy needs us to befriend / convert a number of our opponents.
Space Race requires more science and good production. With science lead, production is of secondary concern.

National Wonders plan
Forbidden Palace -
Globe Theater -
Heroic Epic -
Iron Works -
National Epic - St. Peter
Oxford University -
Red Cross -
Wall Street -

World Wonders
-Colossus and Great Lighthouse could be very useful.
-Stone based World wonders?

Research path
BW > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism > Meditation > Mathematics > Philosophy.
Other techs can be traded easily.

Religion
Taoism from GS Philosophy.

Civics
Switch to Slavery after we build settler to whip library.
Switch to Pacifism upon discovery of Philosophy.

Great People
Upon completion of the library a city should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy

War / Diplomacy plan
Sign OB with everybody to make exploration possible.
Take out 2-3 nearby civs.

Expansion plan
When we traded for sailing (after Alphabet) we can build a galley to act as Ferry.
Exploration should be done with workboats (cheaper and will be underway for a long time)

Plan A: Settle in place
Settle in place, build worker, chop settler to found St.Peter as production site.
Disadvantages: Moscow has low production, bad for bureaucracy. Starting position is ideal for GP farm.

Plan B1: Settle on plains hill (St. Peter on start)
Move to plains hill, build worker, chop settler. Found St.P on start to act as high food GP farm. Second city will be capital of Taoism, with pacifism can make lots of GPs.
Capital will be high production city with max benefit from Bureaucracy.
With more early production we'll have more workboats to meet civs and
Disadvantages: Extra turns before founding capital.

Plan B2: Settle on plains hill (cities on spices)
Need to scout to find more food for this city. Better use fo tiles. And immediate access of Spices.We can farm all other tiles for GPP farms. If scout reveals more food, this will be an excellent plan considering we are on a smallish island.
Disadvantages: Less food surplus. Higher maintenance.

Build Order
-Moscow: worker, settler, workboat, library.
-Chop 3 forests to complete settler and workboat. Dependent on whether we have copper or horses in the BFC.
-Whip library with 2 or 3 pop.

Please post your approval / suggestions / criticism!

With stone we should consider wonders:
Pyramids / Masonry
University of SAngkore / Paper
Notre dame / music
hanging gardens / mathematics

Also Great Lighthouse / colossus are great benefits. Moscow on plains hill will be excellent for wonders.

I favour Plan B2. I think we need to consider the long-term view because I think playing for a diplo/space win means a long game, so optimal positions will be worth it imho

remconius, in your test game to get philosophy early, did you build any wonders?

I ran a couple of games with Moscow on plains hill, building Pyramids each time and shifting to representation.

1: Ended up getting 2 engineers. By 300 BC, had Pyramids, G. Lighthouse, G. Library. 2nd city a scientist factory with the GL. Next scientist could be used for philosophy or academy or optics. 2 cities.

2: Got 2 scientists. First used for academy, 2nd for Philosophy. At 460 BC, only had pyramids, but founded Taoism. 3 cities in this case.

The more likely and perhaps ideal outcome is actually 1 engineer, 1 scientist, because the engineer can plant an early wonder in a low-production city.

In each game, I had met everyone through work boats and was 4th in score at 300-400 BC.

I noticed that Philosophy is not needed to go the fast United Nations route, i.e., direct to mass media. Do you think the benefits are worth it?

Research path
BW > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet


Should we do Wheel/Pottery instead of animal husbandry?

And insert Masonry if we want pyramids.

remconius, in your test game to get philosophy early, did you build any wonders?

...

I noticed that Philosophy is not needed to go the fast United Nations route, i.e., direct to mass media. Do you think the benefits are worth it?

Not having ever achieved a diplomacy win - what do we know of tactics to enhance our chances for this? How does this change with the new warlords feature (the name of which I've forgotten) where a defeated opponent can become sub-ordinate to our empire?

I didnt build any wonders, but had spare production capacity.

Thing with religion is that there are 7 religions and 18 civs. That means 11 civs will be without, these can be easily converted to make friends.
One of the added benefits of philosophy is that we get pacifism, and a free prophet for another GP factory. Then we instantly have two cities with +100% GPP.

Masonry for Pyramids should be inserted to unlock the stone, after fishing?

wheel is needed to hook up stone. We only need to synch it when we start pyramids.

Pottery is not needed until we start building cottages. In my games, I didnt need it as cities were working food tiles or mines and assigning specialists.

Animal Husbandry has added benefit of revealing horses, which if we have it, gives another production boost.

Having said that, my suspicion is that the fastest finish time will be a diplomacy one - but I have no skill at achieving one.
Same here, Sapce seems the easier and more obvious, but if we want to be fast we at least have to try to go for diplomacy.

That will be new to me as well, but then again, we can learn from all the new things we try! ;)

So my vote goes to diplomacy, if that fails, then change plans to go for space.

I did a test game with Moscow on plains hill and St.Peter on start.

Got Philosophy in 760 bc. Managed to get several workboats out and meet so many opponents that I could trade mathematics as well. That helped a lot.

I like it. Dont know if I like two cities, too high maintenance... Havent tested though.
My test with 3 cities went very well.
I was a bit later with Philosophy though as I had some problems getting the great scientist. But still it was around 500BC, after trading for math the turn before the GS popped.

The maintenance of 2 cities is not alot higher.
But production really is low... on the test map anyway :)

Another concern I got playing the test game is converting to our religion. Almost all opponents already had their religion, so I hesitated with converting. It has a high impact om relations in the game, so trading would be more difficult and it can give problems for diplo victory. On the other hand, without converting, pacifism is useless!

Haven't tried wonders, but it sounds really nice to do so!
There definately are some nice benefits of building wonders in Moscow, it can be a Great People Farm even without assigning specialistst!

Another option we have to consider.... :D

I also tried 3 cities, very good for GPP (pacifism, artemis +50%). I had one city with 49 GPPpt (2 sci, GL). One city had 21 (2sci) and moscow had 35 (2sci, pyramids and artemis)

Problem with 3 cities is very low production in spice cities. Limited forests that can be used, in the long run they pay off. Lets see what our scout discovers.

With representation from the pyramids, running specialists really pays off. I agree its a risk to relations, but as soon as we start sending out missionaries we can spread taoism across the world...

I think the plan for the initial turns is clear, build worker, chop a settler, Research BW, then masonry to be in line with completion of settler. To start pyramids after settler. The scout should reveal surroundings before we decide where to settle.

I'll play tonight, then we can decide where the first settler will go.

Looking forward to the next set of screenshots, and update.

Anyone else having issues with the HOF mod for the SGOTM or is it just me? I'm trying to load the test games, and get 'Runtime Error'

Anyone else having issues with the HOF mod for the SGOTM or is it just me? I'm trying to load the test games, and get 'Runtime Error'
That is usually caused by not having 2.08 patch installed.. have you?

I have installed HOF-2.08.002.exe, and HOF-2.08.001.exe

Is that what you are referring to, or are you referring to a Warlords patch?

doh! - just found: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3344

That is usually caused by not having 2.08 patch installed.. have you?

You guys are amazing! Are you keeping track of discussions in all threads? Must be quite a time investment...

It is the difference between a casual and almost professional competition. I feel this kind of support really makes SGOTM so much more enjoyable. Thank you for all the preparation and support!

You guys are amazing! Are you keeping track of discussions in all threads? Must be quite a time investment...

It is the difference between a casual and almost professional competition. I feel this kind of support really makes SGOTM so much more enjoyable. Thank you for all the preparation and support!

I have to second this. The support here is as good (or better) than from professional games companies!

On the religion question, it seems true that we will cause some negative relations at first, but in the long run religion will be necessary to have truly great friends that would actually vote for us. We could spread the missionaries before adopting the religion, of course.

I don't have any experience with vassal states, but I guess some teams will use these to boost their votes?

Great people points
I am fully behind the great person strategy.

But it strikes me that Pacifism gives us less benefit than it appears.
Because we already have the +100% bonus, and the percentages only stack, Pacifism is effectively just a further 50%.

For example, let's say 10 base people points. +100% is 10+10 = 20.
Pacifism gives another 100%, or 10 points, so 10+10+10 = 30.
This is helpful, but we'll only get great people 50% faster, rather than 100% faster.

Maybe this is obvious to everyone, but just wanted to clarify it...
Probably still worth it to run pacifism. Depending on the situation, organized religion or theocracy may be useful.

More importantly, DON'T build the Parthenon. For similar reasons it is not worth the time and production.

Have fun, remconius! Give us good scouting news! :)

Summary:
-We seem to be on an island, but it's not small. -Apart from already discovered resources we have access to spice (1 more), gems (6!), rice (2), cows, clams, Fish (3 more), and copper.
-I went for Masonry after BW, maybe I should have gone fishing first (not literally of course).
-St. Petersburg will need to provide some fishing boats, or we swap from the pyramids to make Workboats.
-I dont think there is a need to build two cities in the south, lets go for the single monster GP farm. We have land enough... so it seems.

Remconius: Loaded the save, here we go!

Remconius: First move, settler E, mystery square is also spice!
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0123.jpg

Remconius: Settler NE, More land nearby...
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0124.jpg

Turn 1 (3970 BC)
Remconius: Scout moves, more land...


Turn 2 (3940 BC)
Moscow founded
Moscow begins: Worker
Research begun: Bronze Working

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0125.jpg

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0126.jpg

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Contact made: Chinese Empire

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0127.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0128.jpg

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
Remconius: Worker is useless until we get BW, park him on a hill. Just a fool on the hill.
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Remconius: worker starts chopping. Slavery switch postponed to get Settler quicker

Turn 26 (3220 BC)

Turn 27 (3190 BC)

Turn 28 (3160 BC)

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)

Turn 32 (3040 BC)

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)
Remconius: Tried to avoid the bear, but no luck. Let's pray for our only unit...
Scout loses to: Barbarian Bear (2.46/3)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)
Remconius: To be expected... The hero of this story is no more, and we have a promoted bear on the loose.

Turn 37 (2890 BC)

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Civ4ScreenShot0129.jpg

And who is the guy in our inner lake (see minimap)


And here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Pioneer_Knights_SG003_BC2830_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Roster
-Remconius
-MrWhite (UP now, 30 turns)
-Berserks01 (On deck, 20 turns)
-Strauss
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Let's take it slow in these initial stages. Next person can continue when we decide where to found city 2 and what the next steps are...

Quick question - with the new rules, are the rest of the team allowed to download and open the save, or only the next player?

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
Remconius: Worker is useless until we get BW, park him on a hill. Just a fool on the hill.
Hinduism founded in a distant land

hmm - that's a pity.

Also - the 'REMCONIUS' comments - did you make those by 'talking' and then screenshotting? Also, where do we find the HOF log files?

Well, given the 17 civ's, I'm surpirsed we are on our own on this area.

Final comment - I don't see any 'arctic' areas, so I'm guessing we are close-ish to the equator.

You are allowed to download the save and look at it, but not make any changes.

Yeah worker sat around for 10 turns, but at least we could start with the settler.

Remconius comments are made with alt+e, you can set the name of the user comment in options.

In the Warlords folder under my documents is a folder called autolog, that's where the file goes.

Here is my first attempt at a dotmap:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/SGOTM3dotmap.jpg

City 1: GP monster with lots of food.
City 2: Cows/Gems filler city.
City 3: Fish/Gems
City 4: Clams and double gems
City 5: Copper/Fish
City 6 and 7: Cities have rice and access to lots of coast.

This will give us 8 cities (including Moscow) and a solid base to go for either victory.

Judging from this dotmap, we'll have all cities coastal and with lots of water. Colossus and Great Lighthouse would be great assets. Hmm... :mischief:

That's one heck of a maze you drew there rem :p

Sorry for the lack of posts, I lost internet cuz my router went awol on me since saturday.

Anyway, is city '7' necessary? It's really just that one tile and all sea tile with no food resources. I'd say we can do without it, IMHO.

I'm tempted to say go for a gem city first since the gold will help us tremendously with science, but look at all that jungle....

All my regular/test games have been to build 2-3 cities then build up an army while building some targeted wonders, but all my games are solely war games. But in this case, since we're heading towards space or diplo, I'll have to re-evaluate my style. We should build selected cities to prevent AI invasions and still keep up with research and military.

Hey Berserks,

Good to see you are back. With Strauss on Auto-skip and limited input from Garretsidzaka discussion was only between the 4 Pioneer Knight veterans. It's good to get more fresh views.

You are right, 7 isnt really needed, it could use rice though, to have more yet smaller cities.

Hey, pick up stix! :)

Interesting map.

True, if we want to focus on GPs, then the start spot should be the next city. I think it can run 7 specialists before biology, if everything is farmed.

The two spice city option would only support about 5 specialists. But if we wanted to max out cottage space that would be better. So I'm assuming we'll be farming down there instead of making cottages.

Btw, looks like the peak food/specialist city would be between the cow, rice, fish, and gems to the N of Moscow. Would that mess up the use of space?

Here is the cleared up dotmap (version 2) with power cities:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/sgotm3dotmap2.jpg

This looks better rem. Nicely done.

Btw, Berserks I love your sig!

One is a genious, the other's insane...

Great cartoon!

I far prefer dotmap 2, although, if I read it right, this means that the 'middle gems' will not be used by any city?

Hopefully this dotmap uploads, and makes sense.
.... sigh - upload issues again - this doesn't bode well for my game uploads

The idea was to move city 2 to the north gems, and have a new city that uses the 'middle gems' (just left of rice). Downside is that there is quite a bit of overlap between cities 2,6 and moscow.

Nice new dotmap!


The idea was to move city 2 to the north gems, and have a new city that uses the 'middle gems' (just left of rice). Downside is that there is quite a bit of overlap between cities 2,6 and moscow.

This is kind of like the decision for cities in the south.

If we want another giant specialist city in the north, then we go for the major food spot and abandon the middle gems.
-or-
If we want to maximize commerce in that area, then we squeeze in two cities, as in spots 2 and 3 in remconius's first map, and lay down cottages everywhere.

Let's go for big cities! I never ran a serious specialist based economy. Let's do pacifism and use engineer for artemis....

Hey Berserks,

Good to see you are back. With Strauss on Auto-skip and limited input from Garretsidzaka discussion was only between the 4 Pioneer Knight veterans. It's good to get more fresh views.

You are right, 7 isnt really needed, it could use rice though, to have more yet smaller cities.
I'd also leave city 7 out of the map, since it would probably (for sure on the short term) cost more then it would benefit.
Especially since the rice would not be for city 7 to work, but for the 'cow-city'. But this something we can decide later, when we are so far that we have build or the other cities. :)

Let's go for big cities! I never ran a serious specialist based economy. Let's do pacifism and use engineer for artemis....
I totally agree on this!!
It will be new for me to have an economy based greatly on specialists and Great People. Maybe we can farm everything, so we have lots and lots of specialists? We might not even need any cottages?

As for playing, I can play tomorrow evening if we all agree to build the new city south between the spices.
To remind me, what is the build order?

Probably warrior first, then change to workboat. Might want to chop a forest, but also leave a few in case we want to build something else. Chopping is probably better for St. P. You'll have to switch to slavery though ;)

Moscow should probably also build a workboat during the pyramids. If you can send a warrior round the other side to take care of the bear and discover the rest of the island...

@MrWhite - is that your 'GOT IT'?
(we need to remember to post them 'loud and clear').

Yeah, I prefer the 'super-cities' as well, I merely mentioned the other as a compromise to the 7 city map 1.

What the prospects for study? Given that we are on an island, on our own, if we don't go sailing, soon, we are going to be behind on contacts, which means behind in tech, in my experience.

We dont need sailing to explore. We need two things:
1-workboats
2-open border agreements.

In all the test maps it was very possible to sail all around the world with workboats (just as fast as galleys/triremes, but cheaper). They will be en route for a long time so there is no need for sailing. We can trade this when we get alphabet.

My proposal would be:
Masonry > fishing > Wheel > Pottery > writing > alphabet > Drama
-Maybe wheel first to hook up stone.
-Maybe AH instead of pottery to see horses and work cows.

After writing we can start to explore with workboats and after Alphabet we can trade around for missing techs. Key techs to get from trade are Mysticism, Meditation, mathematics. Then we can use the GS for Philosophy.

Roster Post a descriptive report
-Remconius
-MrWhite (UP Now, 30 turns)
-Berserks01 (On Deck, 20 turns)
-Strauss
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Absent periods
Wanderer: 22 Dec - 2 Jan
Strauss: On skip till return (Dec 8th?)

Victory:
Diplomatic or Space Race
Both need lots of science to get the required tech(s).
Diplomacy needs us to befriend / convert a number of our opponents.
Space Race requires more science and good production. With science lead, production is of secondary concern.

National Wonders plan
Forbidden Palace -
Globe Theater -
Heroic Epic - City 4 (near copper)?
Iron Works -
National Epic - St. Petersburg
Oxford University - (St. Peter)?
Red Cross -
Wall Street -

World Wonders
-Colossus and Great Lighthouse could be very useful.
-Pyramids planned in Moscow
-Great Library in St.Peter (with GE)
-Parthenon in Moscow (with GE)

Research path
wheel > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Alphabet > Drama > Mysticism > Meditation > Mathematics > Philosophy.

Religion
Taoism from GS Philosophy.

Civics
Switch to Slavery to whip library.
Switch to Pacifism upon discovery of Philosophy.

Great People
Upon completion of the library a city should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy.
Let's see how we can get some Great Engineers.

War / Diplomacy plan
Sign OB with everybody to make exploration possible.
Take out 2-3 nearby civs.

Expansion plan
When we traded for sailing (after Alphabet) we can build a galley to act as Ferry.
Exploration should be done with workboats (cheaper and will be underway for a long time)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/sgotm3dotmap2.jpg

St.Petersburg founded on start position to act as high food GP farm. This city will be capital of Taoism, with pacifism can make lots of GPs.
Capital will be high production city with max benefit from Bureaucracy.

Build Order
-Moscow: warrior, Pyramids, lots workboats
-St. Petersburg: warrior, workboat, (workboat), library (max growth to whip library)

Please post your approval / suggestions / criticism!

Moscow: warrior, Pyramids, lots workboats


In my test games I built 3 workboats in Moscow before completing Pyramids. The 2nd workboat went exploring, the 3rd was used for fish. In one game I also built the library before Pyramids and still managed to finish it quickly. With fish, clams, and all hills mined, Moscow quickly becomes a production machine! :D

So, in Moscow, recommend warrior, workboat, pyramids / workboats switching production as needed.

The only danger is if some industrious AI also has access to stone, but I think we'll make it.

@MrWhite - is that your 'GOT IT'?
(we need to remember to post them 'loud and clear').

Yeah, I prefer the 'super-cities' as well, I merely mentioned the other as a compromise to the 7 city map 1.

What the prospects for study? Given that we are on an island, on our own, if we don't go sailing, soon, we are going to be behind on contacts, which means behind in tech, in my experience.
Indeed, it was my GOT IT!! :)
I'll be more clear next time.

After masonry we'll go fishing and then beeline Alphabet.
EDIT: as stated by remconius, we also need the wheel first to get the stone online!

Great People
Upon completion of the library a city should assign 1 scientist and 2 as soon as possible. Growth and production are of secondary concern. 2 scientists will be 12 GPP (18 with pacifism).
1st GS will be used for Academy, 2nd for Philosophy.
Let's see how we can get some Great Engineers.

Especially with the plan of getting a Great Engineer soon, we should not build an Acadamy with the first Great Scientist, but use it for Philosophy. We should make a plan on how, where and when to get Great People?

So, in Moscow, recommend warrior, workboat, pyramids / workboats switching production as needed.
Ok, I'll follow this.
In St Peter I will start with extra warriors, probably 2 (1 defense, 1 for the bears), then maybe a worker or a settler?
Library immediately when possible, but I don't think I will get that far. :)

Probably fishing first to build workboats and then wheel to get stone. As redemption stated we should be able to get the pyramids fast even while getting stone later.

Als we should manage GP points and which GP we are expecting to get at what time from what city. Like Moscow should only use the pyramids to generate GE for a wonder and ST.P can focus on scientist for philosophy.

Als we should manage GP points and which GP we are expecting to get at what time from what city. Like Moscow should only use the pyramids to generate GE for a wonder and ST.P can focus on scientist for philosophy.
I like that idea. But aren't GP points generation are incremental per civ and not per city? So even with 2 cities generating GP points, once a GP is found all cities GP points goes back to 0 right? Or am I wrong?

I like that idea. But aren't GP points generation are incremental per civ and not per city? So even with 2 cities generating GP points, once a GP is found all cities GP points goes back to 0 right? Or am I wrong?
You are wrong, points are calculated per city... when one emerges in that city the points go to 0, but others keep their points.
So, if you need 300 points and in the Science city you have 290 and in the Engineer 240, you could stop using scientists to get the Engineer first.
(i.e. using the whip to build something in the science city and thus using the pop in another way ;)). Then afterwards the Great Scientist should come quickly.

So, if you need 300 points and in the Science city you have 290 and in the Engineer 240, you could stop using scientists to get the Engineer first.


Yep, makes sense. On this plan we guarantee at least one Engineer. I suggest we save him though... for Great Library, because otherwise it will be tough to build, especially in St. Pete.

I don't know how to "guarantee" other engineers, but when we start running scientists in Moscow we will still have a 20-30% chance of 2nd engineer.

For GP cities, Moscow will be a wonder city plus some scientists, so it will produce a mix.

St. Pete will be pure scientists, with Great Library and Natl Epic?

St Petey will rule!!

GL - 2 GPP, 4 scientists - 12 GPP = 14 raw, makes 42 with philosophical and pacifism. :D

Then we have to plan to make sure we use the scientists for the right techs. Ie get the right prereqs and ones that open other techs preferred by the GS.

Let's have Moscow build GE first (150 GPP), then have St.Pete go to 300 for GS. Then Moscow at 450 and hope for GE again.

The link to the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Pioneer_Knights_SG003_BC1900_01.CivWarlordsSave

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2830 BC to 1900 BC:

Turn 39, 2830 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 40, 2800 BC: St. Petersburg has been founded.

Turn 46, 2620 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 52, 2440 BC: Look, some borders!!

Turn 56, 2320 BC: End of the road, but no bears found!
Turn 56, 2320 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.

Turn 61, 2170 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Pioneer Knights adopts Slavery!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 68, 1960 BC: Moscow has grown to size 3

So much to learn again... GP farming was something I've never done in single-player games. Soemtimes I begin to wonder how I ever won a game, with all the things I didn't know :-)

Unfortunately I don't have a site to post pics, so the screenshots are not as they are intended. Nut much to see anyway, but just take a look.

It looks like there is a island we can colonize if we are quick enough!

40-2800BC
Discovered Masonry, start researcing fishing in 9 turns (we need this first if we want to work stone and grow Moscow at the same time).
St Petersburg is founded, start warrior in 22 turns, research at 90%.

42-2740BC
Moscow warrior (with chopped forest) => warrior (2 turns).
Warrior goes in search of the Bears.
Start quarry

44-2680BC
Moscow Warrior => Pyramids (250 turns)

47-2590BC
Mao adopts slavery, so he has bronze working.

49-2530BC
Discover fishing => Th Wheel (13 turns)
Change production in Moscow to workboat at max speed (9 turns)

51-2470BC
St Peterburg size 2
We don't now anyone wealthy, see screenshot 104.

52-2440BC
We see some borders!
(screenshot 106)

56-2320BC
The warrior is at the end of the island, but no bears found.
(screenshot 108)

57-2290BC
St Peter warrior => work boat (22 turns)
Moscow work boat => pyramids (245 turns)

58-2260BC
Unloaded nets on the fish, Moscow grows next turn!

59-2230BC
Moscow size 2, works the fish and the stone. Pyramids in 122 turns.

62-2140BC
Discover The Wheel! Choose Pottery because it is the shorter way to Alphabet.

63-2110BC
St Peter size 3, I want to whip so I change to slavery.

64-2080BC
Whip workboat.

65-2050BC
St Peter workboat => workboat (15 turns).
Start the exploration of the world!!
Stome is hooked, Pyramids in 58 turns!

68-1960BC
Meet the Romans south of St Petersburg.
(screenshot 109)

69-1930BC
Moscow size 3, the Pyramids now in 36 turns.

70-1900BC
We meet the Indians, west of St Petersburg.
(screenshot 110)

Nice turnset, Mr White!!
I notice we score a reasonable distance behind these guys. 35 turns to Pyr? What time does that equal?

After St. Peter's next workboat, what is the plan?

bt, updated roster
Roster Post a descriptive report
-Remconius
-MrWhite
-Berserks01 (UP Now, 20 turns)
-Strauss (On Deck, 10 turns)
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Good stuff mrWhite :goodjob:

You can get a free account for screenshots at photobucket. Easy to upload and even gives you [img] tags you can copy and paste directly into the forum.

Also if you turn on the autolog in the options, you can find the autolog.txt in a warlords subfolder. This gives you the really nice colored turnlog...

I would like to see the explore WB uncover the whole island before going too far. Maybe there is more food and we have another power city. I would even propose the WB to settle on the clams of St.P and have the next one explore. We should also make sure we try to increase visibility in all directions.

A few more dotmaps:

PLAN 1: Current dot map with better lines

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Slide2.jpg


PLAN 2: Little less powerful cities, but one extra city, and 4 more tiles used (including an extra gems tile and plains mine). We are short on mines so I think it helps.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/remcoverheij/Slide1.jpg


Btw, I also noticed Spices give extra food with plantation, so they make excellent resources for st.P.

City 1: Will be +7 food city until we can farm more (with CS)

City 2: Better production town, maybe with a workshop or two.

City 3 and 4: Cottage towns as they will never get irrigation. And two gem mines.

City 5: Main production town after Moscow.

I know I said we want 'near-ideal' cities due to the likely long-term nature of the game, but the plan 2 speaks to me in dark and tempting tones...

Good turnset, pyramids here we come! :egypt:

I like the extra city plan, remco. When do we want to start filling in cities? Before or after Philosophy and religion? Wait until iron working?

If we have iron working when we build the next settler, I think the city priority would be:
1 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 4

Or the city on spot 5 could be built before iron working, but it will need culture to expand borders.

Would be nice to see what is around that stone across the sea near Moscow... possibly a city site and we could keep the stone away from Mao, trading it for our benefit.

Interesting that Gandhi is close by. A future partner? Or an easy victim?

We dont need IW to settle in jungle, but we do need it to make the city valuable.
To get culture in new cities, we'll need a Tao Monastery somewhere to produce missionaries.

The Stone Island is Mao's, see my report, but if the site is good we could snatch it. My suggestion would be that the Explore Workboat check the island and our southern surroundings before fishing clams of St.P. The next workboat can go on a long journey (we need writing anyway to not get blocked.

Ghandi could be an ally, but he is Hindu, might be tricky to convert him.

I still believe in the added benefit of the Parthenon, but also Great Lighthouse and Colossus....

We need to convert to representation upon completion of pyrammids. Our scientists will do 6 beakers and cities will be happier!

Nice turnset, Mr White!!
I notice we score a reasonable distance behind these guys. 35 turns to Pyr? What time does that equal?

After St. Peter's next workboat, what is the plan?

After the workboat, we might want a new settler before we build a library? Or for as long we can't build the library we can start on the settler anyway.

And 35 turns is about 900 years, so at 1000BC we will have the Pyramids.
Off course we can whip to get it faster and as Moscow grows it also will get a little shorter.

I believe there's also a forest we can chop to help it along alittle if we want.
It's too bad we can't include that last 3rd gem within the BFC of city 5, that would've made city 5 a real nice money maker.

Also, wouldn't we be able to farm any tile without water resources nearby with biology?

I would suggest city 5 be our next city as it will secure us copper. We'll need some form of metal to produce a decent defense.

I've got it for 20 turns, btw. Will play sometimes tomorrow.

Good turnset, pyramids here we come! :egypt:

I like the extra city plan, remco. When do we want to start filling in cities? Before or after Philosophy and religion? Wait until iron working?

If we have iron working when we build the next settler, I think the city priority would be:
1 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 4

Or the city on spot 5 could be built before iron working, but it will need culture to expand borders.

Would be nice to see what is around that stone across the sea near Moscow... possibly a city site and we could keep the stone away from Mao, trading it for our benefit.

Interesting that Gandhi is close by. A future partner? Or an easy victim?
We need to discuss what to build in St Peter after the workboat. Another workboat? A settler to grab the copper (city site 5) early? I don't see anyting else we need before we can build a library... Also when we build the 3rd city before Philosophy, we can get Taoism there, so it will expand borders quickly (to get the copper online).

I think it better to beat Gandhi soon, he was far ahead in science in my testgame so he would probably beat me to the UN and / or spaceship.

I think we should get a library as soon as possible, but have Moscow build the first GP (100% GE), then St.P a scientist (100%), then Moscow (GE or Sci).

St.P should assign always have as many scientists as possible, but once it has reached size 4 or 5 it could happily churn out settlers (to avoid growing).

I agree to city 5 being the next one on the list.

We can build farms with biology, but without irrigation they would only produce 3 food instead of 4. As we have all grassland we can build cottages to infinity without losing food surplus.

Somthing else, I was looking at the map trying to optimize each city. If we want to get any kind of production going we need to preserve forests (like true tree lovers:D) and build lumber mills. We can only afford a few workshops as they reduce food, most cities only have 1 food resource...

I'll post a plan later

We need to discuss what to build in St Peter after the workboat. Another workboat? A settler to grab the copper (city site 5) early? I don't see anyting else we need before we can build a library... Also when we build the 3rd city before Philosophy, we can get Taoism there, so it will expand borders quickly (to get the copper online).

In one test game, I had a 3rd city when Philosophy came in, but Taoism still went to St. Pete. Is that partly random? Even if it happens, we could spread the religion to new city and spread the borders.

Let's name our mighty explorer workboat!
I suggest Odyssey, being a traditionalist... :)

I agree to the naming. That is crucial for success of this game.

May I suggest the Enterprise (To go where no man has gone before)

Hi, sorry havent been posting much, been busy with multiple projects.

I think that, since this map looks like alot of islands, pick up sailing soon and drop a settler at the most promising unoccupied island. and we are gonna need at least one worker on each island we take.

who's got the ball right now?

who's got the ball right now?

bt, updated roster
Roster Post a descriptive report
-Remconius
-MrWhite
-Berserks01 (UP Now, 20 turns)
-Strauss (On Deck, 10 turns)
-Redemption438
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Dec 06, 2006 01:13 PM
berserks01 I believe there's also a forest we can chop to help it along alittle if we want.
It's too bad we can't include that last 3rd gem within the BFC of city 5, that would've made city 5 a real nice money maker.

Also, wouldn't we be able to farm any tile without water resources nearby with biology?

I would suggest city 5 be our next city as it will secure us copper. We'll need some form of metal to produce a decent defense.

I've got it for 20 turns, btw. Will play sometimes tomorrow.

Well, it is a quiet turnset like I imagined it would be. Not alot happened.

Turn 3 - Judaism fidl.

Turn 5 - Met Victoria. Then her border expands blocking our workboat from continuing scouting W, so I turn it around hoping to finish circling Ghandis island.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o14/Berzerks/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

Turn 6 - Pottery comes in, starts Writing.

Turn 8 - Met Alex.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o14/Berzerks/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

He's right next to us to the East.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o14/Berzerks/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

Turn 9 - St. Petersburg finishes workboat, starts settler (we don't have writing yet, so no lib to build). Workboat to clams.

Turn 10 - Stonehenge bidl.

Turn 13 - Warrior barb appeared N of Moscow.

Turn 14 - Warrior barb went back into the fog.

Turn 18 - Well, NW is also blocked off by Ghandi, so turned the workboat around again to scout Alex and Mao's island.

We should build some warriors to fog bust so we don't get any suprises from barbs.

Here's the >>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Pioneer_Knights_SG003_BC1300_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Good stuff berserks, eventhough rather uneventful...

*opens the save*

One question:
Saw you built a cottage on the FP. No problem, but given the fact we want this as a GP city we should probably build a farm here and max food.

Also I think the city north of Moscow should get National Epic, it will have more food than St.P after CS and even more after biology due to 8 farms.

Roster Post a descriptive report
-Remconius
-MrWhite
-Berserks01
-Redemption438 (UP Now, 10 turns)
-Strauss (On Deck, 10 turns)
-GarretSidzaka
-Wanderer

Strauss is on autoskip until tomorrow, so I swapped him with Redemption.

One question:
Saw you built a cottage on the FP. No problem, but given the fact we want this as a GP city we should probably build a farm here and max food.

Doh! Sorry about that, it's like a conditioned reflex ... see a flood plain, cottage it :blush:.

Doh! Sorry about that, it's like a conditioned reflex ... see a flood plain, cottage it :blush:.

lol, well, we can use the beakers... :)
But the next player can farm it, the worker doesn't have much to do anyway... as long as we don't have agriculture we might as well use the worker to get some cottages?

BTW good to see we are meeting the neighbours.
As soon as we have writing we can sign open borders and find all they are hiding from us!

Got it!

Will look at the save sometime today.

Seems we can leave the cottage there until the city is maxed out and really needs the extra food...

Plan and questions for my turnset

Writing is coming in 3 turns... fun!
I will sign open borders with everyone.

Tech after writing will be alphabet unless you think we desperately need something else. Hopefully we can survive a while without archery...

Builds:
I would like to switch to Library in St. Pete as soon as writing comes in, finishing the settler after library. Thoughts?
Will chop a riverside forest in St. Pete to accelerate production.

Moves:
We need more breathing space if a barb archer appears. I will take the Moscow warrior N to fogbust and move St. Pete warrior to Moscow, leaving St. Pete unprotected until next warrior is finished.

Will take workboat (Odyssey? Enterprise? :)) to scout E towards Alex and Mao, unless you think it's more important to go off another direction.

I'll probably play tonight, so let me know if there's anything else.

Alphabet is good

Library: Maybe you could do a calculation to see when Moscow would complete the Great Engineer. Then we have to time St.P to have a library and almost have 150 GPP. Then St.P can complete the Great Scientist 25 turns (150GPP) later. If it allows time to complete the Settler first that would have my preference. We'd get more production to make defense.

We'll also need an escort for the settler if he is going to head for Copper.
And we need fogbusters.

My suggestion would be that Moscow after the pyramids spends some time to build workboats (fish and explore) and warriors (defense and fogbust). Or city 3 could do that and have Moscow focus on library.

We also still have the warrior in place at city side 5?
He can go back to the north of Moscow to bust some fog there. Also he can be the escort.

We still would need about 4 warriors to fogbust around Moscow (2) and city 5 (the other 2). When we build more cities we would need less fogbusters so they can be the escort of later settlers. (I'm used to play with few defenders, probably most of us want to build some more warriors or better units after we get the copper online)

I'd say we could also use the whip to get the settler / library soon if we want that. We can play with scientists to get the needed Great People at the right time. I'll try to make a spreadsheet for calculations.

Plan for tech and exploration sounds good to me!

I whipped the library in my test games, but the tricky part is that you have only 2 or 3 people left and have to wait a while before assigning scientists. We should do the maths to see if it's better to whip or wait and assign two scientists immediately.

Alphabet is good

Library: Maybe you could do a calculation to see when Moscow would complete the Great Engineer. Then we have to time St.P to have a library and almost have 150 GPP. Then St.P can complete the Great Scientist 25 turns (150GPP) later. ...


Can you explain this to me? I don't think I really get this. Is the 150 GPP important because the library will influence the GP created? I think i mentioned before I have GP farmed before, so I'm at sea on this one.

Agree to: Alphabet.

If we are not going archery soon, we will need to make sure we have those warriors for defence/fog-busting.

The idea with GP is that the first GP costs 150 GPP. Which ever city reaches it first get a GP based on the GPP collected. The next GP costs 300, and so on.

So Moscow could produce a GE in 48 turns. 10 turns for Pyramids, 38 turns to build up 150 GPP (4GPP per turn).
St.P can build GPP at a rate of 12 with two scientists if it were to get a GP first, Moscow would take a long time to build more pure GE to ge 300.

So my suggestion is build settler first, then library (with 2 chops and whip). Then it should be able to still build up close to 150 GPP (allowing Moscow to get first GP) and then quickly rush to 300 in 15 turns (at 12 per turn). Which would be a Geat Scientist.

agree to fog busting, Moscow should build a WB and 3-4 warriors after pyramids.

am i up yet?

Redemption is up, then Strauss if he is back, then GarretSidzaka.

Redemption posted his got and his plan. The next step is to play and report.

1000 BC report
We built Pyramids in 1060 BC (looks like several other teams did at roughly the same time...).
Great engineer in 35 turns, as is.
Alphabet in 24 turns as is, quicker after libraries.
We have open borders with everyone.
Last in score, but this will change after we get Alphabet and start trading techs.

I moved warriors around to fogbust - we need another warrior for St. Pete.

1270 - movement.

1240 - movement.

1210 - start chopping next to Moscow. (Edit: I did this to speed up Mids by 3 turns, i.e., speeding up great engineer by 3 turns.)
G. Wall bifl (actually Gandhi - he built G. Wall and Stonehenge in same city.)
Gandhi switches to slavery (all AIs have slavery now)
Vicky converts to Hinduism
Alex and Mao are trading partners.
Alex has a trireme investigating our land.
Writing comes in - open borders with everyone.

1180 - not much.

1150 - I feel slightly violated by Alex's trireme.

1120 - Barb warrior appears next to one of our warriors.

1090 - Barb attacks, loses to us.

1060 - Pyramids finished! :cool: Start work boat in Moscow.

Damn... Alex is putting a city on that stone across from Moscow.

1030 - Worker starts chopping at St. Pete.

1000 - Mao has axemen (and biggest score, large island).

Sorry no screenshots - will work on that for next time!

to do
-Switch to representation.
-Settler is finished in one turn. Without a galley, it will take some time to get the settler around to city spot 5.
-grow Moscow - should we use workboat for clams, or to explore?
-I don't think we need to build more than one warrior immediately - can press on with libraries.

The save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Pioneer_Knights_SG003_BC1000_01.CivWarlordsSave