Will do. Although IIRC, the WB can't be used at St. Pete's because the other clam is outside current cultural boundaries. I will still use the WB for the SW city, start a granary and send a worker, too. In this case I suggest WB->worker->settler in St. Pete's so we can chop the settler.


I like the plan, however I would skip the worker in St. Pt. I'd go direct to settler, whip when we can (about 12 turns). That gets us one settler and then we can whip another in Moscow at about the same time. Moscow at size 2 is +7 food, and will grow back to 4 by the time the settler would have been finished had we not whipped. Then I'd of course build a WB to send to blue.

I'd move the settlers to their spots but not found until the blue gets either a WB or at least one worker from the gems available. I'd send the worker up there to clear the jungle in prep so it can be mined immediately. In the yellow case I'd use the worker from the iron to farm the rice in prep for founding yellow. Yellow actually works pretty well with just the rice to get started.

Hope you don't mind all the nit-picking.

The combination of high food and expansive is really huge combined with whipping at the start when we've got so much to build. Being able to whip the gran at size 2 is key. We convert food to hammers at around 2h/f or better. The downside is losing the use of squares as we build back the pop and the unhappy of course. However, St. Pt. is not really losing great squares and even in Moscow it is worth it. The key is having something else to build afterward that allows the city to grow back.

Whipping a city that doesn't have good food, or that would lose the use of really productive squares is of course much worse. So whipping Novgorod for the last piece of the lib may not be so good. Once the fish are in place--maybe a different story.

I think mature cities should rarely be overwhipped--that penalty just snowballs.

I like the plan, however I would skip the worker in St. Pt. I'd go direct to settler, whip when we can (about 12 turns). That gets us one settler and then we can whip another in Moscow at about the same time. Moscow at size 2 is +7 food, and will grow back to 4 by the time the settler would have been finished had we not whipped. Then I'd of course build a WB to send to blue.

How do you feel about leaving the worker near St. Petes to help chop the settler, then sending him to help with the SW city? I'd really like to save the whip for the library there.

I'd move the settlers to their spots but not found until the blue gets either a WB or at least one worker from the gems available. I'd send the worker up there to clear the jungle in prep so it can be mined immediately. In the yellow case I'd use the worker from the iron to farm the rice in prep for founding yellow. Yellow actually works pretty well with just the rice to get started.

I agree getting the settlers out ASAP is important, so it makes sense to spend time discussing it. I think I will still end my turnset after the settler pops & let Grogs found yellow & blue.

So whipping Novgorod for the last piece of the lib may not be so good. Once the fish are in place--maybe a different story.

Most of the time I agree with you. In this case, we might need to whip the last bit of the library in order to work the fish at all. Might not come to that during my set, though since Novgorod will take forever just to get to size 2.

How do you feel about leaving the worker near St. Petes to help chop the settler, then sending him to help with the SW city? I'd really like to save the whip for the library there.

If we send the WB to the island, then the setter can wait as we work the crab, whip in 9 turns and then ideally the iron is ready by the time the city is back to 2 in 9 more turns. So sending the worker 10 turns later leaves time for a couple of chops. I'd wait a turn on the settler and let ST. Pt. grow to 5that will up the build to 7.

Just as long as either the WB or the worker goes with the settler.

BTW need to be careful landing as we could get a barb spawn--maybe the WB will have completed the fog bust there.

I think that is a good plan--I do agree with the importance of getting the lib up and running and your plan I think accomplishes both goals.

Most of the time I agree with you. In this case, we might need to whip the last bit of the library in order to work the fish at all. Might not come to that during my set, though since Novgorod will take forever just to get to size 2.

Have you considered what square to work when the gems come on line?

Most of the time I agree with you. In this case, we might need to whip the last bit of the library in order to work the fish at all. Might not come to that during my set, though since Novgorod will take forever just to get to size 2.

I agree with your assessment here. Novgorod picks up a 5f fish tile and a 5h copper tile + another gem when it expands. It's well worth it to sacrifice some pop to pop the borders and bring those tiles on line sooner.

Might not come to that during my set, though since Novgorod will take forever just to get to size 2.

Novgorod presents some interesting decisions, and I don't pretend to have all the answers.

1) Should we complete the WB or change immediately to lib when possible?
Lib allows the all important cultural expansion sooner, but getting the WB completed a) allows settling the blue city when the settler gets there, and
b)avoids some decay. I think getting the blue city going is pretty important as well so I would vote for completing the WB at the cost of probably 3 turns or so to Nov.

2) when the gems come on line should the gems be worked? Will be 8 turns to growth instead of 16. However, we need hammers more than commerce and we lose 3 hammers for 1f and 5c for 8 turns, then pick up 1h and 6c for the 8 extra turns that we work both tiles. So our trade off is really -16H for
8f and 88C. My guess is that that makes the gems better to work even though it does slow the lib by 2 or 3 turns.

3)In either case the whip calculation is essentially the same. The whip gets us the lib 7-8 turns earlier which allows the fish that much earlier. However, if we then are building a WB for the fish (which I think makes the most sense),
we get a turn back by working the additional hammer for the gems. So we get the fish 6-7 turns earlier. However, 3 turns are lost to working the fish to regrow the city to 2. Additionally the commerce from the gems square is lost for about 10 turns so -60C. So I would put the tradeoff as more like getting Novgorod growing 3-4 turns earlier for around 60C.
I think that is worth it but only just.

MS-I think with the plans you've described I think we'll have pretty nice flow--we can get workers and WB pretty well coordinated with our city building which is definately a challenge given we will shortly double our # of cities.

BTW- good to have you back in action Grogs.

The save is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0715_01.CivWarlordsSave)

The good: Everything went according to plan - but the plan was intterupted because...
The bad: Alex declared on us! He had open borders with Mao & is coming with 2 galleys.

Here are the details:

Turn 0 865 BC
switch Novgorod to WB

Turn 1 850 BC
St Petes WB->WB (just for 1 turn until getting to size 5). WB heads to SW island to fog-bust. Galley comes back. Goofed up and moved warrior by Novgorod W instead of E this puts us at -2 & I'll probably have to turn down research next turn.

Turn 2 835 BC
St. Pete's at size 5, switch to settler. Worker chopping forest N of St. Petes. Research at 70% (+1) writing in 6.

Turn 3 820 BC
St. Pete's culture expands (from Hindu - here I was thinking we would need a library). WB meets Romans (JC, not Augustus) to the South of the SW island. I've included a screenshot. Because of the no-city razing and because of the border expansion of St. Petes onto the western clams I think I will found the SW island city on ungy's spot (N of the jungle). Research back at 80% (writing in 4). Gem mine is finished near Novgorod - switch to work gems. I think the pop is more important than anything else in this decision.

Turn 4 805 BC
Confucianism FIDL! I guess we will miss that one! Seems kind of early. In Moscow, settler pops and I move him to St. Petes where galley will pick him up next turn. Moscow switch to maximize food & build barracks to grow to size 4 before next settler build. WB scouts a little more of JC's territory (heading around the W of the island back up to the clams).

Turn 5 790 BC
galley picks up settler & heads to SW island. workers near Novgorod start chopping for library. research at 70%, writing in 2 turns. Iron mine finished, building road.

Turn 6 775 BC
drop off settler on SW island.

Turn 7 760 BC
writing is in. Go to alphabet at 0% research (+23). Rostov founded 1N of jungle on SW island. Rostov starts granary. WB works clams W of St Petes for Rostov. chopping settler in St. Pete's. Give clams to JC only other civ who would take them is Gandhi and we will crush him soon - JC has the great wall, BTW.

Turn 8 745 BC
Iron is hooked up. worker near Moscow gets ready to chop settler (Moscow has 4 more turns to get to size 5 when we will switch to settler).

Turn 9 730 BC
zzzz

Turn 10 715 BC
Alexander declares war on us! He's got two galleys coming our way! (near Moscow). HELP!!! Grogs, guess it's your turn! Boy, am I glad I didn't pull those workers off the iron like I was thinking at the beginning of the set.

Here are more details:
Turn 111, 835 BC: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 111, 835 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 112, 820 BC: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 112, 820 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 115, 775 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 116, 760 BC: Rostov has been founded.

Turn 118, 730 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Novgorod.
Turn 118, 730 BC: Moscow will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 118, 730 BC: Alexander has declared war on you!

Turn 119, 715 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Moscow!
Turn 119, 715 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Moscow!



I've attached a few screenshots.

I suggest letting Moscow finish the barracks & pop rushing axes there. St. Pete's can switch to axes & pop rush. Also chops are coming both for St. Pete's and Moscow so that should help. I didn't make any moves in 715 BC so we have this whole turn, plus next turn (when Alex will land) at least to prepare.

Interesting, I guess we were too weak for Ceasar to pass up. We need to survive the initial assualt; after that we will be fine. Of course we don't know what is in the galley's, so we have to assume they are full (although we all know they are likely to be empty).

If the land near Moscow on the next turn, we can pop rush one axe. I think an axe upgrade costs 110g, so for another immediate axe we need to find and additional 14g. I don't know if we can manage an additional 14g; I don't have game access right now.

We could also send out the St. Pete warrior as a distraction. If the odds don't look good, we can divert at least one invader, by sacrificing the St. Pete warrior.

Interesting, I guess we were too weak for Ceasar to pass up. We need to survive the initial assualt; after that we will be fine. Of course we don't know what is in the galley's, so we have to assume they are full (although we all know they are likely to be empty).


lm, it is Alexander, not Caesar who declared on us, FYI.

In retrospect I should have given the gems & fish to our rivals, too. I think this is what ungy meant with his suggestion, but somehow I interpreted this as surplus resources only and only gave away the extra clam.

Maybe that would have saved us this war :(

In any case I agree we will likely be able to handle it, but it does delay expansion plans. Hopefully Alex will not go for rostov with any invasion force.

In retrospect I should have given the gems & fish to our rivals, too. I think this is what ungy meant with his suggestion, but somehow I interpreted this as surplus resources only and only gave away the extra clam.

Maybe that would have saved us this war :(


I would have offered fish but definately not gems as those we need. I'm certain that would not have changed anything had he accepted them.

My experience with Alex is he is a very dangerous and somewhat random opponent--I've been attacked when pretty strong and not sharing a border or anything.

Obviously we are in a different game now and need to reassess everything.

I still believe our original REX strategy was correct--at that point we were trying to compete with the other teams for a fast finish and this was extremely difficult to deal with.

I would recommend that Grogs pause his turnset after the troops land for reevaluation.

As bad as this is, it actually could have been worse. We are fortunate that we hadn't whipped our settlers yet and that MS hooked up the iron. We should be able to defend Moscow which might not have been the case w/o the whip we can do now.

The question is what is on those galleys?

Alex took slavery in 2770 so he beelined to BW (started with hunting and fish). The ai tends to overbuild the UU so possibly phlanx. The next turn I think is actually critical.

I don't think we can afford to delay even one turn for the barracks. We have to whip in Moscow now. I think an axe is the best bet as the odds favor axe or phalanx over char. It is also possible there are archers only and maybe we're lucky and a settler or two. This is just EXTREMEY EARLY for this type of attack. Although I have to confess I have very limited experience with this type of map.

There is a decent chance the AI will pillage and land in the jungle with the lead galley and land on the spice cottage with the other. He also might delay landing to pillage the clams (although he doesn't have to). I'm not sure whether to whip in St. Pt. or wait a turn. Galley should be moved to s of the spice to force alex to attack at 10% bonus if he wants to get around there to take out the ST. PT. clams or rostov.

Intermediate goal is to whip a trireme to take these galleys out when they come back with more.

Will post some more thoughts later but like to hear others weigh in. This is really a critical turn and I'm glad you stopped MS.

I agree with Ungy. We need to whip an axe in Moscow and hope Alex has archers and phallanxes on those boats. St. Pete should switch to an axe build as well, we are going to have to whip at least one and probably the trireme there. Moscow can whip a second unit after we see what lands. Best case, one galley is empty and just pillages nets. I doubt he would send a settler into a war zone.

If we open boarders with Mao, we can put the trireme near Nanjing eventually and prevent reinforcements from reaching our island. We just have to hope that we can whip up enough defences to hold on for now.

I don't think we need to whip in Moscow, immediately. If my timing is correct, one current turn (T1) Alex lands his force. T2 we finish the barracks and whip the axe. The axe will be there to defend when on T2. We can easily test this, but I'm positive that the unit is built before the AI attacks. Of couse the axe will not be upgraded, yet. If the axe survives, it will have the upgrades available.

I predict 1 or both gallies will go after St. Petes water resources, so if we whip the trireme first, we will be able to attack the gallies quickly.

Of course if we want any help from St. Pete to help Moscow's defense, we need to whip an axe immediately. Also, if this axe is not needed it can be shipped to the new city (on the island). So maybe immediately whipping an axe in St. Pete is the best move.

I predict 1 or both gallies will go after St. Petes water resources, so if we whip the trireme first, we will be able to attack the gallies quickly.

the problem is we are likely facing 4 units on land. While I agree trireme would be very useful, we are going to be able to upgrade one unit in 2 turns.
We are unlikely to be able to complete our chops. So that leaves us 1 war, 1 upgrade and 2 whips for the next maybe 4 turns.

Additionally the enemy will likely land in between Moscow and St. Pt., forcing us to defend both. Land units are really at a premium for the next 3 turns and I think the trireme can wait for the next whip.

Often times the AI after pillaging will leave naval units to prevent working tiles. That would be ideal. When we whip a trireme we could then pick of any galleys that are blockading like that.

I don't think we need to whip in Moscow, immediately. If my timing is correct, one current turn (T1) Alex lands his force. T2 we finish the barracks and whip the axe. The axe will be there to defend when on T2. We can easily test this, but I'm positive that the unit is built before the AI attacks. Of couse the axe will not be upgraded, yet. If the axe survives, it will have the upgrades available.

It is also my understanding that the axe will be there--however I'm not 100% positive that that that is the case for this version. As it could be a game breaker a test would be worth it.

However, we still need to whip this turn in Moscow. If not Alex could invade directly with 4 units vs. the lone warrior--a sure loss even with the -50% invasion penalty.

One reaon to delay whipping is that by whipping with no hammers invested we get a 50% penalty on one pop. So we could switch to an axe (most likely build) in St. Pt. but not whip immediately for 1)saving 20H, and 2) giving some flexibility as to the build. So if a char lands on the cottage we can change to spear and whip immediately.

Again I would urge a pause after each turn for the next few turns as these could be game breakers.

I If we open boarders with Mao, we can put the trireme near Nanjing eventually and prevent reinforcements from reaching our island. We just have to hope that we can whip up enough defences to hold on for now.
Might make sense but let's delay that as long as possible. Mao likely is out of expansion room (building the GL so early) and if Hattie has lots of land we still have a chance to settle blue and yellow.

It is also my understanding that the axe will be there--however I'm not 100% positive that that that is the case for this version. As it could be a game breaker a test would be worth it.



This is what I remember too. I think a test is prudent, good suggestion.

Might make sense but let's delay that as long as possible. Mao likely is out of expansion room (building the GL so early) and if Hattie has lots of land we still have a chance to settle blue and yellow.

I have found that when the AI is out of free tile to expand into, they expand by force. An open borders would act like a relief valve for Mao. If he has no room, then he may dog-pile on us.

I have found that when the AI is out of free tile to expand into, they expand by force. An open borders would act like a relief valve for Mao. If he has no room, then he may dog-pile on us.

Well I think ATM we have bigger fish to fry but I think highly unlikely Mao DOW's us. This is REALLY early to get attacked by an AI and Mao is not very aggressive.

I have found that when the AI is out of free tile to expand into, they expand by force. An open borders would act like a relief valve for Mao. If he has no room, then he may dog-pile on us.

Its doubtful Mao will dogpile. He's not psycho agressive like Alex and there is really nothing Alex can use to bribe him into joining a war this early in the game. Alex won't have Alphabet or Currency and certainly won't offer Mao a city.

If we assume Mao and Alex have run out of room on their island then we need open boarders with Mao to threaten Alex's territory to get peace eventually but open boarders will let Mao get settlers to our island. I think this is a bigger wildcard with Mao rather than war. We may have to hope Mao settles yellow dot in a good location since this war will hamper our rexing. Likely, either Mao or Hatty will get a city or two on our island. This war probably means we will have to hope the AI chooses reasonable locations.

We know we will want to fight Mao for the Great Lighthouse so I would argue for letting him get a settler to our island. We will want to capture that city and Hatty may prove to be a useful ally. She builds big cities and gets a large shared religion bonus. She could make a useful ally for the final vote (although her pop can be a double edged sword). Mao doesn't get a shared religion bonus (IIRC) and has the GL so he definitely will be attacked. I think this means we should look at letting him found a city on our island rather than Hatty. Ghandi will adopt Free Religion and Julius is hard to get to vote so Hatty is our only obvious, nearby potential ally.

I would say wait for a turn or two because the contents of the galleys are the real question right now. If Alex pops 4 axes or chariots beside Moscow, discussions about Mao are moot. I would argue for the immediate axe whip for this reason as well. We lose a promotion so it is a worse defender but we may need to whip again immediately to get enough numbers to defend. A single axe and warrior will be no match for 4 chariots, axes, or phallanxes even with the hill and cultural defence.

Additionally the enemy will likely land in between Moscow and St. Pt., forcing us to defend both. Land units are really at a premium for the next 3 turns and I think the trireme can wait for the next whip.


I can to the same conclusion in my second paragraph.

If we wait for the whip in St. Pete and Alex immediately lands near Moscow, that axe will be of no consequence. The axe cannot help to protect Moscow (other then send the warrior out as a decoy).

If we want to play ultra safe, we may have to take the first turn whip penalty in St. Pete. I say we take the chance and wait a turn. I still have some confidence that the galley's are not full...maybe empty.

I've come around on switching Moscow to axe, immediately, but wait until the next turn to use the whip. For the same reasons as St. Pete, we avoid the penalty.

I've come around on switching Moscow to axe, immediately, but wait until the next turn to use the whip. For the same reasons as St. Pete, we avoid the penalty.

There is a problem with this. If we don't whip an axe right now in Moscow, Alex can invade Moscow directly. With a single warrior defending the first axe(if he has one) I think is a favorite to win. Since he has 4 units to invade with, we are lost pretty much whatever he has. If he lands 4 units next to Moscow, we likely need to whip another unit the next turn which I think we can do if we work the mines.

I'm not sure how the AI works, but it shouldn't know where St. Pt. is or that there are fishing boats to pillage there. So my guess is either they head to Moscow, or our decoy cottage on the spice causes them to split.

I've never seen an AI launch an amphibious attack. Maybe I should give it a couple of tests in the world builder. It does seem very unlikely, but I'll definitely check it. As ungy said, I know for certain the axe would be there in vanilla, but again it's something I need to check in the WB.

Looking at the power graph, Alex has about twice the power we do. Considering our entire military is 7 warriors and a galley, this seems like a good sign. If I had to guess, I'd say the galleys probably contain either archers or phalanxes. If Alex has metal, he's probably built a lot of phalanxes since the AI's always like them. I also see the possibility he has no metal (and thus archers) which might have motivated him to attack us so early on.

The one thing that really concerns me is Rostov. I simply see no means of defending it. Hopefully Alex will just drive straight forward towards Maskva and ignore it, but right now he could just walk in.

Right now, my preferred move would be to switch to axe in Moscow and St. Petersburg and pop-rush both next turn. If the axe can survive a turn, I can upgrade the warrior in Moscow. If we can get the 3 axes ready and not lose a town, I think we can repel this invasion force. I highly doubt he has much left to send another fleet for a while. That should give us enough time to make sure a follow-on invasion gets pounded. I'll make a couple of trials in the world builder and let you know the results.

I would have offered fish but definately not gems as those we need. I'm certain that would not have changed anything had he accepted them.

phew! I'm glad I didn't screw up too much.

It would be nice to delay the whips if possible to preserve some of our original REX strategy. I like what Grogs is thinking if he believes it can be done safely.

phew! I'm glad I didn't screw up too much.

It would be nice to delay the whips if possible to preserve some of our original REX strategy. I like what Grogs is thinking if he believes it can be done safely.

Nah, don't sweat it ms. Like the others have said, Alex is a psycho. We could have given him every resource we had and he may have still attacked us.

BTW, I conducted my tests. If you rush an axe on turn 1, it will show up before the AI attacks on turn 2. Also, no matter what I gave Alex - I tried 4 axes, 4 modern armor, and even 4 marines - he always landed the troops and THEN attacked. Even with 4 marines or 4 MA, he wouldn't attack directly. BTW, when I tried him with either 4 phalanxes or 2 ph. and 2 archers, he simply WOULD NOT attack a city defended by 2 axes.

I may play around a little with the world builder and power graphs and see if I can guess what Alex may have (total.)

BTW, I conducted my tests. If you rush an axe on turn 1, it will show up before the AI attacks on turn 2. Also, no matter what I gave Alex - I tried 4 axes, 4 modern armor, and even 4 marines - he always landed the troops and THEN attacked. Even with 4 marines or 4 MA, he wouldn't attack directly. BTW, when I tried him with either 4 phalanxes or 2 ph. and 2 archers, he simply WOULD NOT attack a city defended by 2 axes.


Good work running these tests! Very interesting. Somewhat unfortunate that he would make the near suicidal attack against the 2 axe as that is obviously our best bet to dispose of his troops. But important to know.

Does the AI move a galley 2 squares then unload troops? I can't remember.
If we move 2 we then have to click on the land units to unload. I tested in WB as well and the AI did not invade. However, I only gave Moscow 20% culture and he attacked 2 axes with 4 phalanxes (and won). I'm a real rookie at this WB so not sure if I had everything else right.

The one thing that really concerns me is Rostov. I simply see no means of defending it. Hopefully Alex will just drive straight forward towards Maskva and ignore it, but right now he could just walk in.

Does Rostov get razed here? If not, not a big deal I think. Splittiing the force means we can deal with the mainland force and we can cut Rostov off by building a trireme or 2 then retake which might get us peace.

Also not clear to me if Alex knows of Rostov's existence yet.

phew! I'm glad I didn't screw up too much.

It would be nice to delay the whips if possible to preserve some of our original REX strategy. I like what Grogs is thinking if he believes it can be done safely.

There wasn't much you can do. Alex had higher power than us and that can make him declare war regardless of relations. We decided to REX and neglect early military and that ran the risk of an early war. I've never seen the AI declare this early on an islands map so I certainly wasn't pushing to research archery. You hooked up the iron so we should be able to repell this invasion. If we had settled in place and St.Pete's and Moscow were switched, we could be fighting phallanxes with chariots and warriors.

I pushed delaying Mysticism and building libraries because I really didn't think the AI would declare war this early without border pressure. I guess we look like a more inviting target than Mao's protective archers.

Grogs - I think we can block the coast near the spice with our galley. Its unlikely that Alex will attack with his galleys (especially a loaded galley) so we may be able to prevent him from discovering Rostov.

Right now, my preferred move would be to switch to axe in Moscow and St. Petersburg and pop-rush both next turn. If the axe can survive a turn, I can upgrade the warrior in Moscow. If we can get the 3 axes ready and not lose a town, I think we can repel this invasion force. I highly doubt he has much left to send another fleet for a while. That should give us enough time to make sure a follow-on invasion gets pounded. I'll make a couple of trials in the world builder and let you know the results.

I wonder if it makes sense to delay the rush in St. Pt. If he lands all 4 units at Moscow next turn I don't think it plays anyway. I think it will be tough for that unit to get over there unless he lands in the jungle. That gives us some flexibility in case an axe is not the correct build and if it is we save the whip penalty at the cost of a turn. I guess I'm thinking what if there is a char or if only archers we might want a sword instead. And in the unlikely case of no units, we can switch to a trireme. So I'm thinking switch to axe in both but only rush mos. Work max hammers to still grow in Moscow--I think will be tight if we have to whip again next turn with the penalty to get another axe.

I think if we have guessed wrong and there are char on board we are in serious trouble but I don't see any alternatives. It is a close call even if we guess right.

relations. We decided to REX and neglect early military and that ran the risk of an early war. I've never seen the AI declare this early on an islands map so I certainly wasn't pushing to research archery.

I don't think I've seen an AI declare this early w/o a land border and this would be early even with close borders, especially on monarch.

I don't regret our early strategy at all, even if we end up with disaster here. We had decided to play for a medal, and I guarantee that all the medal winners will have followed an aggressive rex strategy. And he might have come for us even if we had a few more units anyway--I don't think it's a pure power calculation.

Grogs - I think we can block the coast near the spice with our galley. Its unlikely that Alex will attack with his galleys (especially a loaded galley) so we may be able to prevent him from discovering Rostov.

Unless he races for it, you can beat him to the choke point s of the spice.
This will also guard the clams at St. Pt. which we desperately need.

Does Rostov get razed here? If not, not a big deal I think. Splittiing the force means we can deal with the mainland force and we can cut Rostov off by building a trireme or 2 then retake which might get us peace.

Also not clear to me if Alex knows of Rostov's existence yet.

nyet. (Sorry - I'm learning Russian and that just seems natural since we're playing Russia.) I think Gyathaar answered this in the maintenance thread. No city razing means just that. No razing, no auto-razing, just no razing period.

Does the AI move a galley 2 squares then unload troops? I can't remember.
If we move 2 we then have to click on the land units to unload. I tested in WB as well and the AI did not invade. However, I only gave Moscow 20% culture and he attacked 2 axes with 4 phalanxes (and won). I'm a real rookie at this WB so not sure if I had everything else right.

Yeah, the AI will move 2 and unload. I think 4 phalanzes v. 2 axes is a pretty even fight. I did notice though that unless he had pretty overwhelming odds, there was a tendency to delay the attack a turn. Why, I don't know, but hopefully he'll do that here.

What I'm thinking on rushing is this: switch Moscow to an axe and then rush next turn. That should cost 1 pop. (grow to 5->drop back to 4) and (if the city isn't taken) I can rush another the next turn. On the 3rd turn, I'll also have enough roubles to upgrade the warrior in Moscow. I've toyed with the idea of rushing in St. Pete immediately, but he won't be able to defend Moscow in any case. I can rush the axe in St. Pete on the 2nd turn (if needed) and upgrade the warrior for a counterattack if Moscow should fall. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

I'm also going to leave the 2 workers chopping (though I'll control them turn-by-turn.) We can certainly use the hammers and it possible Alex may send units after them, which would be good for us.

I'll move the galley to blockade as well.

I don't regret our early strategy at all, even if we end up with disaster here. We had decided to play for a medal, and I guarantee that all the medal winners will have followed an aggressive rex strategy. And he might have come for us even if we had a few more units anyway--I don't think it's a pure power calculation.

I agree. You've got to take chances to win medals. We took a high percentage risk (and one I'd make every game) but we rolled snake eyes. I'd rather be lucky than good, but at the moment, good is all we've got.

What I'm thinking on rushing is this: switch Moscow to an axe and then rush next turn. That should cost 1 pop. (grow to 5->drop back to 4) and (if the city isn't taken) I can rush another the next turn. On the 3rd turn, I'll also have enough roubles to upgrade the warrior in Moscow. I've toyed with the idea of rushing in St. Pete immediately, but he won't be able to defend Moscow in any case. I can rush the axe in St. Pete on the 2nd turn (if needed) and upgrade the warrior for a counterattack if Moscow should fall. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.


It seems like turn 3 we get 3 axes in Moscow whichever path we take. I'm not sure if we quite get there but it seems like if we can rush turns 1 and 2 to get 2 axes out that is worth it. I think turn 2 getting the second axe in Moscow turn 2 is key.

Also if we rush the axe immediately, is he more likely to split the force and pillage the cottage (which I think is better for us)?

As for retaking Moscow, I don't think that happens anytime soon if we lose it.
That is our metal, and it is a hill.

It seems like turn 3 we get 3 axes in Moscow whichever path we take. I'm not sure if we quite get there but it seems like if we can rush turns 1 and 2 to get 2 axes out that is worth it. I think turn 2 getting the second axe in Moscow turn 2 is key.

From what I can see, I don't think we can do it. If we rush this turn, we'll drop to size 3, at which point we can only pop-rush 1 (and we'd need two to rush again.) I haven't run the hard numbers (partly because I don't really know them,) but I don't believe there's any way to get a 2nd axe into Moscow before the 3rd turn.

Also if we rush the axe immediately, is he more likely to split the force and pillage the cottage (which I think is better for us)?

As for retaking Moscow, I don't think that happens anytime soon if we lose it.
That is our metal, and it is a hill.

Hopefully the hill will help us keep it. I'd much rather not lose it. ;)

My vote is to switch to axe in St. Pete and Moscow, but wait to rush until the next turn. I know there is risk involved, but overreacting to the threat will cost us several turns (due to lost population). I know the AI is better with Warlords, but I still think the AI force will be manageble with delaying the pop rush.

I also think we have enough input for Grog to play the next turn. Since we are trying to predict the AI's actions, we will never agree on the best solution. So let's just play the turn; I support whatever King Grog decides.

I will second switching to axe but no rush since it seems the AI won't attack by sea. If Alex doesn't have metal and lands chariots, we can rush a spear for 2 pop. I think the current warrior can upgrade to axe or spear for the same cost so we have a bit of flexibility when we see the enemy. Its probably not worth a 2 pop rush until we see the enemy force.

I'm sure Grogs will play a solid strategy either whipping now or later. A lot will come down to the units in the boats and the rng. We took a calculated risk and I'd do it again so I'll have no complaints about the results of the next turn set. I'll just wish Grogs good luck.

I will second switching to axe but no rush since it seems the AI won't attack by sea. If Alex doesn't have metal and lands chariots, we can rush a spear for 2 pop. I think the current warrior can upgrade to axe or spear for the same cost so we have a bit of flexibility when we see the enemy. Its probably not worth a 2 pop rush until we see the enemy force.


I have seen the AI capture a worker from a boat, but not any attacks against a city. I do not know if the recent patch has adjusted this or not. Right now, Moscow is a sitting duck if we do not whip an Axe this turn.

I understand the rationale for waiting one turn to whip, but, a wrong guess and our chance at a decent finish is gone.

For the sake of "going for the laurels", I am willing to take the risk that they will not attack by boat. So I agree with the plan.

Go for it Grogs!

For the sake of "going for the laurels", I am willing to take the risk that they will not attack by boat. So I agree with the plan.

Go for it Grogs!
I don't have a lot of confidence in my opinion not having done the tests--however, this is a pretty big risk/reward. If we are wrong and lose Moscow w/o much fight we are not certain to win the game. I have seen the old AI do an invasion when the game first came out but can't remember one since.

As for the laurels, I'm afraid that ship sailed with Alex's galleys. Let's do the best we can of course.

Another move we could consider is moving the warrior out of St. Pt. that way if the road is not blocked it could move to Moscow as additional backup.
It would only have a chance agains archers, but there is a decent chance of one or more of those in the boats. Downside: -1 unhappy and lose fort bonus.

I support whatever decision Grogs makes--he's given this a lot of thought.

Let's pause on a turn by turn basis for the next few turns tho.

OK, I played the first turn:

Turn 0, 715 BC:
- Moscow -> axe, St. Pete -> axe
- Rearrange tiles in Moscow -> 9hpt, still grow in 1
- St. Pete -> axe
- Chop for the library in Novgorod
- Let the 2 workers near Moscow keep chopping.
- And I don't see anything else I can do now.

Turn 1, 700 AD:
IBT - Alex razed our fishing boats and lands his mighty invasion force:

2 archers


I uploaded the save in case anyone wants to take a look:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0700_01.CivWarlordsSave

IBT - Alex razed our fishing boats and lands his mighty invasion force:

2 archers


lol - The AI does some amazing things!

I think you can play out the rest of your turn.

OK, I played the first turn:


Turn 1, 700 AD:
IBT - Alex razed our fishing boats and lands his mighty invasion force:

2 archers


:lol:

...and the AI has just been updated. :confused:

I go along with RTB, finish the turn set. I do recommend inserting a Trireme or two in the build order.

IBT - Alex razed our fishing boats

You know, how did he do this? the fish are not on a coast - they are in an ocean square in our territory and Alex doesn't have open borders with us. Am I wrong or shouldn't he not be able to move his galley to that square at all?

Anyway Grogs, I am sure you can easily handle the archers. Building a trireme sounds smart to me and I guess workboats to repair our nets. Any thoughts on city placement? You'll probably get a settler from St. Pete's during your turn set.

You know, how did he do this? the fish are not on a coast - they are in an ocean square in our territory and Alex doesn't have open borders with us. Am I wrong or shouldn't he not be able to move his galley to that square at all?


My understanding is that you can move galleys on any culture square.

I'm still against OB with Mao and trying to settle the yellow and blue. I think Alex has an alternate route to us so we can't block him there anyway.

My understanding is that you can move galleys on any culture square.


You must be right. I was wondering the same thing as ms. I know you can move galleys onto your own ocean tiles, or those with civs you have open borders with. It must be they can move on an ocean tile owned by any other civ. It's probably just not the sort of thing that comes up much other than on archipeligo-type maps, which is why I've never noticed.

Grogs--as for playing out the rest of your set--while we are not going to be knocked out, this will surely be a tricky set and I would encourage a pause if you feel it makes sense.

With a little more thought, I really recommend frequent pauses this set maybe for 24hrs each. There really are a lot of tough decisions, and I know from my experience especially in war it's good to break and think about the big picture.

Some decisions: should we take a small chance of losing Moscow if a good counterattack presents itself? What is a small chance--5%, 1%?

Grogs you have your work cut out here. Now that we survive, obviously we want to cut down the pillaging. Might make sense to change St. Pt. to a sword or wait a turn on the upgrade and upgrade the Moscow war to sword as that allows a much better attack vs. archer in terrain. Although if heads toward St. Pt. they won't be in terrain.

I suspect we likely will end up needing 2 triremes as we may see one of Alex coming our way and we really need to control the sea there and get FB back working.

We should post the galley 2se of St. Pt. to block.

I think there is a good chance there are two settlers on the galleys--they could have been loaded for exploration/settling when something (maybe the closed borders--who knows?) triggered the DOW. It seems likely given the cargo so far that Alex really wasn't prepared for war. If this is so then he doesn't rate to have much in the way of reinforcements coming. Actually if Alex does work his archers north and settle that is not such a bad thing at this point. The only problem is if he is w/o IW he is likely to settle on gems.

Well, I played 2 more turns.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0670_01.CivWarlordsSave

I was able to swat Alex's archers easily (though it didn't seem so at the time) and we now have 3 axes defending the Moscow-St. Pete peninsula. Our only loss was one pillaged road and 2 pillaged fishing nets by Moscow. I also completed a trireme in St. Pete, thanks to overflow from the whip and a forest chop.

Unfortunately, Alex is showing some new teeth. 2 triremes have shown up and he has a fleet of 2 triremes and 2 galleys sitting just North of Nanjing. He'll probably reload his galleys there for a 2nd wave. This presents a bit of a problem. :lol:

What I've got: 1 trireme, 1 galley. Currently, Moscow is at 20/75h on a trireme. There's also a forest chop (30h) due there this turn (as soon as I press the chop button on the worker.) It's producing 10hpt naturally. St. Pete is also working on a trireme, though it's at 0/75 atm. I think it's possible for me to get 3 triremes in the next 3 turns by doing the following:

- Moscow pop-rushes NOW - should produce 90h -> trireme to 110/75.
- Forest chop puts trireme at 140/75 -> ~73h overflow -> 2nd trireme finishes the next turn.
- St. Pete pop-rushes (2 pop) it's trireme next turn.

If someone could verify those numbers (especially the overflow) are correct, that would be great. This would give us a total navy of 4 triremes and a galley, with which I can probably sink his fleet by Nanjing, though I'll probably lose 1-2 triremes in the process. Depending on the condition of the surviving ships, I could possibly move it into Greek territory and do some pillaging of fishing nets to force a peace treaty. Unfortunately, it will also leave both Moscow and St. Pete at size 2 with double pop-rushing penalties. So the cost is high ant there won't be much water left in the well to draw on at that point.

Grogs you have your work cut out here. Now that we survive, obviously we want to cut down the pillaging. Might make sense to change St. Pt. to a sword or wait a turn on the upgrade and upgrade the Moscow war to sword as that allows a much better attack vs. archer in terrain. Although if heads toward St. Pt. they won't be in terrain.

I really wanted to have an axe in both cities so I could counterattack immediately without leaving a city completely undefended. My big mistake (I think) was upgrading the warrior in Moscow. I should have waited until my axes attacked to see if it was necessary, and in which city it was best. BTW, sword isn't an upgrade option for a warrior, just axe & spear.

I suspect we likely will end up needing 2 triremes as we may see one of Alex coming our way and we really need to control the sea there and get FB back working.

That was prophetic. :)

We should post the galley 2se of St. Pt. to block.


Done.

Here's the log for the last 2 turns BTW:

Turn 2, 685 BC:

- IBT 1 archer moves SW, which is basically the smartest move he could make. :( The second pillages the road. A Greek Trireme shows up 1N of Nanjing. Alex's galleys pillage the clams.
- Novgorod grows to size 2
- I upgrade the warrior in Moscow to an axe
- Axe in Moscow attacks SW against archer (87.8%) and wins (3.4/5)
- Axe in St. Pete attacks NE against archer (69.3%) and wins (3.2/5)
- Thank goodness the RNG was in our favor, I was turning blue waiting for those battles to end.
- Alex's invasion force is gone, so I can safely finish the forest chop for St. Pete -> The trireme will finish next turn.
- Our galley fortifies S of the spice, though he won't be able to hold that spot against a trireme.
- I move Rostov onto the 2nd St. Pete clam

Turn 3, 670 BC:

- IBT: Alex moves his galleys 1N of Nanjing. Another trireme shows up.
- IBT: Hatshepsut converts to Confucianism.
- IBT: JC wants OB. I struggle with this, but finally say no.

This would give us a total navy of 4 triremes and a galley, with which I can probably sink his fleet by Nanjing, though I'll probably lose 1-2 triremes in the process. Depending on the condition of the surviving ships, I could possibly move it into Greek territory and do some pillaging of fishing nets to force a peace treaty. Unfortunately, it will also leave both Moscow and St. Pete at size 2 with double pop-rushing penalties. So the cost is high ant there won't be much water left in the well to draw on at that point.


If the numbers pan out, I like this approach. I would hold out on the second St Pete rush until it becomes clear it is needed.

I can not access the save right now. If Alpha is close we might be able to extort a tech or two. If we can get a second gem on-line we might be able to trade for another :) to offset the double whip.

I would avoid the double whip in St. Pete. All else looks great.

I'll be able to check it out a bit later today. Great going Grogs!!!

I think you did right on the OB w/ Caesar--we can surely get at our leisure if we give up on or settle the blue and yellow.

I think I would wait on rushing the trireme in St. Pt. We really need to see what he's up to with his navy before committing. If he keeps it together, he'll be able to land troops I think and we need another land unit. If not, we are likely to get a chance to pick of a galley with what we have. If he really butchers it we may not need to whip for a while--would be better of course.

I'd replace the galley to the s with a trireme--moving it around but keeping that choke point in range and send the galley back for a worker by Nov to bring it to Rostov. I think the timing will be about right for hooking up the iron--whip the gran in 5 turns then I think a unit. Since we see the two triremes, not as much blocking value to the galley and important to hook up the other iron.

I'd take the combat 1 and let the axes heal in place and repair the road.

As for the chop/rush in Moscow, I think your calculation is correct and I like the plan.

Alex might very well separate the navy if the galleys go back for more troops.
We should also keep an eye on the square next to Nanjing for Greek troops.

Good work Grogs! I have a feeling that you will be facing 2 triremes in our territory, I think with 3 triremes and a galley we should be able to sink that fleet with at least a galley and trireme to spare as long as the galleys head back to Greece. So I guess I'm joining the chorus for holding off on the pop rush of the St. Pete's trireme (for now anyway)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0580_01.CivWarlordsSave

I played 6 more and thought I'd pause and give everyone a chance to see before I do something stupid.

The good:

- Alex pulled his fleet home to lick his wounds. I haven't seen him in 5 turns.
- We have 3 triremes and a galley now.

The bad:

- Alex still refuses to talk.
- One of the civs (Victoria) already has Alphabet

Full Log:

- Promote both axes to C1
- Moscow rushes trireme
- Worker finishes chop +30h to Moscow
- Moscow is stagnated, pulling 8hpt
- Galley heads W to pick up a worker for Rostov

Turn 4, 655 BC:

- IBT: Alex's fleet vanishes, probably east
- Moscow finishes trireme, next due in 1 turn
- Worker loaded on galley and sent towards Rostov
- Switch Novgorod to finish WB (4) to (hopefully) help Moscow rebuild quickly at war's end.

Turn 5, 640 BC:

- IBT: Meet Mansa Musa (is trireme is just S. of Egypt.) He is the founder of confucianism
- 3rd trireme finishes in Moscow
- Unload worker in Rostov -> worker begins mining iron
- Switch St. Pete back to settler. I can pop-rush a trireme at any point if I need it.

Turn 6, 625 BC:

- Moscow finishes barracks, begins chariot
- Alex still won't talk

Turn 7, 610 BC:

- IBT: Meet Victoria. Her galley is between Caesar & Ghandi's territories.
- Still no sign of Alex

Turn 8, 595 BC:

- Novgorod finishes WB -> I'm sending it towards Moscow
- Still no sign of Alex.
- Feeling impatient, I send a trireme to scout Athens.
- Rostov grows(2)

Turn 9, 580 BC:



At this point, I see 3 options with Alex:


Turtle up, keep the entire fleet home, and hope he comes to his senses eventually
Send one trireme to tear up some of his fishing nets and maybe convince him we're not worth the trouble
Send the whole fleet, for the same reason


Thoughts? I'm leaning towards pulling the trireme back and going with #1, but I don't know how long Alex will keep at it.

I would tear up the clams. I think this is only 9 turns of war so I think we need one more IBT before Alex will consider talking. I would like to settle the yellow and blue dots quickly and I think everyone would agree that continued fighting is unproductive. If Alex won't agree to peace in the next couple of turns consider other options.

Option 4 is to build a few swords and send our army to try and rush Athens. Even with 50% defence, 6 swords, axes and the chariot might be enough. I don't think we have the production right now to push this option but we may need to go on the offensive since Alex can be very stubborn. CR sword vs Alex's CG Archer is 6 vs 6.45[3(1+.7+.25-.3+.5)] so we might be able to rush his capital with a three swords and the axes. I can't look at the save now, can we rush a barracks and sword in Rostov before Alex builds a new attack stack?

[Edit: corrected my numbers: I was missing the inate city defence bonus]

I would tear up the clams. I think this is only 9 turns of war so I think we need one more IBT before Alex will consider talking. I would like to settle the yellow and blue dots quickly and I think everyone would agree that continued fighting is unproductive. If Alex won't agree to peace in the next couple of turns consider other options.


I agree with the clams and most importantly the priorities. However, I would keep the lead trireme where it is for the rest of the turn and reinforce with the other that can reach. Then if Alex doesn't garrison the clams with a trireme pillage with both next turn. We don't pillage any quicker with the single, and are more likely to get attacked.

I agree with the clams and most importantly the priorities. However, I would keep the lead trireme where it is for the rest of the turn and reinforce with the other that can reach. Then if Alex doesn't garrison the clams with a trireme pillage with both next turn. We don't pillage any quicker with the single, and are more likely to get attacked.

Good point.

It looks like Athens is on a peninsula without roads so we may be able to isolate it with a 2 trireme choke east of Athens.

Grogs-

I think we should switch our building back to development mode. I think either:
1) We can get peace with Alex
2) Our navy can deal with the threat.
3)worst case we get pillaged a bit.

I think there's a good chance he doesn't have metal and if there were in fact settlers on the galleys one explanation for his odd behavior is that he has gone looking other places to settle--maybe he picked up another OB--who knows.

I'd send one axe over to Rostov for defense, keep building the settler in St. Pt. and continue with another one. There is a good chance that Vic will settle on top of our warrior to work the gems and rice. That is not too bad as we can still settle blue on the hill and work the clams and 2 gems. If it looks like we can get both blue and yellow I'd rush the second settler. I'd probably settle blue first if you have to chose--MM or hattie might settle up north by the gems and we could still get yellow.

I'd also pull the warrior off the jungle hill and start farming the rice. We need that for yellow.

I'd switch Moscow to a WB--we can always delay putting it to work and send it off scouting if we get a naval reversal. Keeping the char 1t away for a bit is fine as we can get it if we need it, if not no need to pay maintenance. I think key to get Moscow growing again.

Not sure what to do with Rostov--we might consider a lib next as we need the culture to work the clams. Or else a WB to scout as I think we are likely about 12 turns or so from getting the continent settled and I think then doing OB with everyone we can to get more scouting and contacts.

I'd keep building cash for the rest of your set--should be right for then rushing at 100% to alpha.

Glad you stopped for a look--I think transitions are always tough and there is a tendency when playing to be late. I think a good general policy to stop and reassess more rather than less.

Good point.

It looks like Athens is on a peninsula without roads so we may be able to isolate it with a 2 trireme choke east of Athens.

2 problems I see with maintaining our navy there:
1)we don't know how big his continent is and he could come around the other side
2) we will pay supply for those units--I think just pillage and bring back home.

Option 4 is to build a few swords and send our army to try and rush Athens.


I think this is a mistake. He is just too likely to build another unit or two. We need 2/1 and it takes us a while to get there. I think once we get alpha we can offer him tech to get peace. Better that than build a bunch of units instead of the critical infra we need now

As Alex is so weak and almost certainly a good jumping off point for Mao, I think he will likely be our first target. Payback will be sweet but let's do it on our timetable. We can OB with Mao and do it by land--much better.

I agree that option 4 is probably unrealistic. We'd essentially have to put everything we've got (probably a rush in St. Pete and a cash-upgrade) into taking Athens. We'd capture what's undoubtedly a good city site, but we'd be crippled, perhaps fatally, and have to leave the mainland virtually undefended while we were invading.

I think pillage, sue for peace, and (re)build infrastructure is the way to go. I'd really rather not have to use Rostov or Novgorod at all for the war effort. I went ahead and had Novgorod build its wb for Moscow, but of course there will be a price associated with that when it expands. If we can get the last 2 settlers out, we can start building some more military as well so that the next time we're attacked we won't be caught with our pants down. Moscow/St. Pete are pretty secure for now, but our western cities are quite weakly defended.

Grogs-

I think we should switch our building back to development mode.


I agree, we should continue our REX, while arming up to defend.


I'd send one axe over to Rostov for defense, keep building the settler in St. Pt. and continue with another one.

I'd switch Moscow to a WB--we can always delay putting it to work and send it off scouting if we get a naval reversal. Keeping the char 1t away for a bit is fine as we can get it if we need it, if not no need to pay maintenance. I think key to get Moscow growing again.



Likewise I would send an Axe over to Novgorad, but build Axe->WB->Axe in Moscow to beef up the defenses and have an axe ready to accompany the settler.




There is a good chance that Vic will settle on top of our warrior to work the gems and rice. That is not too bad as we can still settle blue on the hill and work the clams and 2 gems. If it looks like we can get both blue and yellow I'd rush the second settler. I'd probably settle blue first if you have to chose--MM or hattie might settle up north by the gems and we could still get yellow.



I would hold off deciding whether to settle yellow or blue until a turn or two before the settler completes. In anticipation, I would move the galley to a position east of St Pete's as the Settler appears.

Likewise I would send an Axe over to Novgorad, but build Axe->WB->Axe in Moscow to beef up the defenses and have an axe ready to accompany the setter

Why do we need an axe for that? Especially if we go blue. If I were going to build another land unit (which I've already come out against), I'd build a sword anyway.

.

I think pillage, sue for peace, and (re)build infrastructure is the way to go. I'd really rather not have to use Rostov or Novgorod at all for the war effort. I went ahead and had Novgorod build its wb for Moscow, but of course there will be a price associated with that when it expands.
I think it should pretty much have another one built by then--6h/turn and 8 turns for expansion works pretty well.

If we can get the last 2 settlers out, we can start building some more military as well so that the next time we're attacked we won't be caught with our pants down. Moscow/St. Pete are pretty secure for now, but our western cities are quite weakly defended.

Sounds like a good plan but we need to make sure we get enough WB out--we have to meet more AI. I'd put that ahead of beefing up the west. We're a lot stronger militarily and the others aren't psychos. It will still be very early for an AI attack.

I would hold off deciding whether to settle yellow or blue until a turn or two before the settler completes. In anticipation, I would move the galley to a position east of St Pete's as the Settler appears.
Good idea. I think the timing is right with moving an axe to Rostov. We'll learn by then where Vic has settled or where she's heading.

Why do we need an axe for that? Especially if we go blue. If I were going to build another land unit (which I've already come out against), I'd build a sword anyway.

Having an axe, or sword, will increase our strength rating/comparison to complement the warriors we currently have. This will make us less desirable as a target.

I prefer axe over sword in this scenario because of its versatility. A 50% bonus against melee (offense & defense) is more useful than the 10% city attack (offense only) in the next 20-30 turns.

Having an axe, or sword, will increase our strength rating/comparison to complement the warriors we currently have. This will make us less desirable as a target.

This is true, and if I were playing a solo game with the goal to win I would agree. I would also have played more defense earlier--no need to get more cities our first 3 were fine--plenty to win. However, we are playing against 9 other teams and to beat them I think some amount of risk is warranted. Of the AI we have met so far really only JC is a candidate to attack us and again I think the risk/reward is worth it.

I'm sure if we look at the other teams' saves post game we will be one of the strongest teams militarily at this point. We have a huge military for this time.

Sword/axe. The sword would stay in Moscow as Alex seems not to have metal--much better on the counterattack vs. archers.

I think we need to turtle up and get back to our original plan. Maybe send a trireme to pillage the visible resources, but that is it.

I imagine Alex will make one more attempt to invade, but we can easily parry his attack with our current forces. The AI is generally predictable, and we need to play the odds.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0490_01.CivWarlordsSave

OK, I finished the war against Alex finally. I had to pop-rush a trireme in St. Pete before it finished though. :(

Victoria founded Hastings on blue.

We've got a settler ready on our galley in the inner sea.

Novgorod finished the library and Rostov got religion.

I stopped at 15 (after the war was over.)

We need agriculture to farm the rice for yellow.

Here's my full log:

Turn 0, 715 BC:
- Moscow -> axe, St. Pete -> axe
- Rearrange tiles in Moscow -> 9hpt, still grow in 1
- St. Pete -> axe
- Chop for the library in Novgorod
- Let the 2 workers near Moscow keep chopping.
- And I don't see anything else I can do now.

Turn 1, 700 AD:
IBT - Alex razed our fishing boats and lands his mighty invasion force:

2 archers

... submitted game for update ...

- Rush the axe in Moscow
- Rush the axe in St. Pete (2 pop) after putting a trireme in the #2 queue slot
- Move the galley eastward to blockade Alex's galleys (just in case)
- Workers keep chopping the forest.

Turn 2, 685 BC:

- IBT 1 archer moves SW, which is basically the smartest move he could make. :( The second pillages the road. A Greek Trireme shows up 1N of Nanjing. Alex's galleys pillage the clams.
- Novgorod grows to size 2
- I upgrade the warrior in Moscow to an axe
- Axe in Moscow attacks SW against archer (87.8%) and wins (3.4/5)
- Axe in St. Pete attacks NE against archer (69.3%) and wins (3.2/5)
- Thank goodness the RNG was in our favor, I was turning blue waiting for those battles to end.
- Alex's invasion force is gone, so I can safely finish the forest chop for St. Pete -> The trireme will finish next turn.
- Our galley fortifies S of the spice, though he won't be able to hold that spot against a trireme.
- I move Rostov onto the 2nd St. Pete clam

Turn 3, 670 BC:

- IBT: Alex moves his galleys 1N of Nanjing. Another trireme shows up.
- IBT: Hatshepsut converts to Confucianism.
- IBT: JC wants OB. I struggle with this, but finally say no.

... paused to upload ...

- Promote both axes to C1
- Moscow rushes trireme
- Worker finishes chop +30h to Moscow
- Moscow is stagnated, pulling 8hpt
- Galley heads W to pick up a worker for Rostov

Turn 4, 655 BC:

- IBT: Alex's fleet vanishes, probably east
- Moscow finishes trireme, next due in 1 turn
- Worker loaded on galley and sent towards Rostov
- Switch Novgorod to finish WB (4) to (hopefully) help Moscow rebuild quickly at war's end.

Turn 5, 640 BC:

- IBT: Meet Mansa Musa (is trireme is just S. of Egypt.) He is the founder of confucianism
- 3rd trireme finishes in Moscow
- Unload worker in Rostov -> worker begins mining iron
- Switch St. Pete back to settler. I can pop-rush a trireme at any point if I need it.

Turn 6, 625 BC:

- Moscow finishes barracks, begins chariot
- Alex still won't talk

Turn 7, 610 BC:

- IBT: Meet Victoria. Her galley is between Caesar & Ghandi's territories.
- Still no sign of Alex

Turn 8, 595 BC:

- Novgorod finishes WB -> I'm sending it towards Moscow
- Still no sign of Alex.
- Feeling impatient, I send a trireme to scout Athens.
- Rostov grows(2)

Turn 9, 580 BC:

- worker to rice
- Move galley over by St. Pete
- Moscow switches to WB

Turn 10, 565 BC:

- IBT: Victoria wants OB. I decline.
- Victoria lands an archer and a settler on the western tip of our continent.
- Hinduism spreads to Rostov. Yes!
- I pillages Alex's fishing nets.

Turn 11, 550 BC:

- IBT: Alex pop-rushes a trireme in Athens.
- I pillage a 2nd fishing net by Athens.
- Vicky is moving east.
- Mao has Alphabet now too

Turn 12, 535 BC:

- IBT: Alex's trireme disappears. I think he's heading for our lands through Mao. A phalanx appears in Athens.
- Work the fish by Moscow

Turn 13, 520 BC:

- IBT: Alex's fleet returns. His trireme is now 1N of Nanjing, the 2t/2g in Athens.
- St. Pete settler->settler
- Rostov granary -> axe
- Novgorod rushes library (will regrow in 3) fishing boat in queue.

Turn 14, 505 BC:

- Alex has outfoxed me. He's moving his trireme towards St. Pete, which means he can pillage our fishing nets there unless I attack him.
- St. Pete finishes pop-rushing the trireme

Turn 15, 490 BC:

- Victoria founds Hastings on blue.
- Alex moves his trireme SW as expected.
- Alex will (finally!) make peace.
- I'll stop here and let the next player work the reconstruction.

great job managing the war, Grogs! I think you repelled Alex with minimal damage and only a few whips.

Now time to establish the yellow city. Have we decided on the 'include the fish location' with 4 resources but none in the original 9 tiles or one of the gem,cow,rice locations? I think we can trade for Agriculture after we research Alphabet.

Here is the order:

mushroomshirt
Danthor - Up now
RobertTheBruce - On Deck
llib_rm
ungy
Lmtoops
Grogs - Just Played


I believe we are now on ten turn sets.

Danthor, Please post a plan.

Nicely done grogs! You captained the ship during the most challenging set we've had in 3 games by far.

As for the next set- I recommend the following:

Halt production of all military units. Start building WB. We need 4 to work resources. More for scouting. Cancel galley in Nov--it's decayed to 0 anyway. Don't build settler in St. Pt.--I guess might as well leave it in for a while but not sure where we would settle.

OB with everyone immediately. We can settle yellow in 3 turns. Nowhere else to claim so nothing to lose. I guess still settle for the fish--build gran and whip at 2. My carelessness on the farm--of course we're missing Ag. Still the best tile to work tho.

Go for alpha at 100%-- we may need to cut back before getting there but it's close.

MM for commerce and growth. Work the river cottage before the spice--we'll likely plantation that anyway so better to invest the turns in the other. Cottage the other river grass by St. Pt.

St.Pt. needs to switch to lib. We really need to get a GP going.

I'd send triremes out exploring through the OB. Wb might be cheaper but that's what we can spare now. Leave one or 2 for defense.

Let's keep an open mind about hindu--we might not want to stay with it forever. It's good now as we can still get OB with MM and Hat. Trade clam to hat for cow--need to boost relations there.

After landing the settler move an axe over to rostov.

Now time to establish the yellow city. Have we decided on the 'include the fish location' with 4 resources but none in the original 9 tiles or one of the gem,cow,rice locations? I think we can trade for Agriculture after we research Alphabet.

That would be my vote, although I can see the argument for working the cows to get the city moving faster. We could get lucky with a religion spread. Long term those fish are really big.

That would be my vote, although I can see the argument for working the cows to get the city moving faster. We could get lucky with a religion spread. Long term those fish are really big.

That would be my vote as well.

My plan would be to settle the spot 2 north from the rice (2 east from the cows).
I'd make a detour on research to get the 2 missing basic techs (misticism and agriculture) in a few turns. agriculture to work the rice and mist. to get obeliscs in the cities that lack culture growth.
And... rebuild. Not much more I can do on 10 turns.

I'd make a detour on research to get the 2 missing basic techs (misticism and agriculture) in a few turns. agriculture to work the rice and mist. to get obeliscs in the cities that lack culture growth.

I think not worth the detour--when we have alpha we will trade for both as well as masonry. So getting 12 turns earlier or so is not worth it. Ag will give +1 food to one square and myst will let one city (not yet founded) grow culture a little faster.

anyone else care to weigh in?

My plan would be to settle the spot 2 north from the rice (2 east from the cows).
And... rebuild. Not much more I can do on 10 turns.
The settling plan is good--please provide some detail of what you plan to build.

It's a very small detour, 2-3 turns each. Maybe we should only get agriculture, so to start working the rice right now (the only decent tile the new city can use for the moment).

Build: in capital, finish the chariot (1t left) and work boat. Delay trirremes f

My plan would be to settle the spot 2 north from the rice (2 east from the cows).
I'd make a detour on research to get the 2 missing basic techs (misticism and agriculture) in a few turns. agriculture to work the rice and mist. to get obeliscs in the cities that lack culture growth.
And... rebuild. Not much more I can do on 10 turns.

Here are my quick thoughts:

I would definitely avoid researching mysticism. We should be building libraries for border expansion since all cities will have decent commerce (even in rostov we have started a cottage)

I would keep research at 0% and switch St. Pete and Moscow to libraries now. I would chop and pop rush as necessary to finish them as soon as possible & then turn research back on. I think we can move the worker back from rostov to help with chops and with cottaging Moscow.

Novgorod can concentrate on building WB to replace the pillaged nets. especially after the copper is mined that city will be a production workhorse. Rostov should probably also switch to WB, too. Maybe even before the axe is done?

As for city location, I still like 1 SE of the cows, but I think I am out-voted this time. I think with cows and rice, the 1SE location will expand plenty fast & does not need the fish. I'd rather have more commerce in the late game that that location will provide. But I'm OK with the fish spot since that is the consensus. A detour to agriculture may make sense since we won't be able to work fish or cows right away, only rice. In this case, I'd switch back to alphabet at 0% after agriculture comes in.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

A detour to agriculture may make sense since we won't be able to work fish or cows right away, only rice. In this case, I'd switch back to alphabet at 0% after agriculture comes in.

I'm just not wild about researching a tech that we will trade for in 15 turns at the most so that we can get 1 extra food from one more square. That's maybe 8c/f in my book--seems like a bad deal to me.

I would keep research at 0% and switch St. Pete and Moscow to libraries now. I would chop and pop rush as necessary to finish them as soon as possible & then turn research back on.


Good in theory, however, we're a little overdone on the whipping. I think we're looking at 10 or more turns before that is realistic and I think getting alpha sooner rather than later is worth it. Remember that we will pick up some commerce when we go OB and when our cities grow so it is closer than it appears.

Getting alpha sooner rather than later is important. We are looking to trade for math, and that is not a given. We need more contacts.

We also may want to build an obilisk in yellow after the gran--hence useful to get myst earlier rather than later as well as ag and to a lesser extent masonry.

Build: in capital, finish the chariot (1t left) and work boat. Delay trirremes f

the other cities?

Good in theory, however, we're a little overdone on the whipping.

Yes good point. It does look like we have some chops left, though.

well, depends on what we research. I'd go Obeliscs in cities with no culture, or libraries if misticism is for later. There aren't really much options as we don't have much growth/economic techs.

well, depends on what we research. I'd go Obeliscs in cities with no culture, or libraries if misticism is for later. There aren't really much options as we don't have much growth/economic techs.

well you will found a city. That could build either a lib or gran (gran is better)

how many WB do you need and where and when do you build them?

There are only 4 cities (soon 5) so discussing what to build with each is I don't think unreasonable.

What do you think of my OB proposal and why? We currently have none, I'm proposing all.

How many triremes would you send out scouting?

Since all our current cities have culture, culture is only an issue for the new one. It is hard to compete with a gran for an expansive civ as the first build so I don't think you have too much to decide there.

We have a differing opinion on tech again--is of course not as major this time but still relevant. I've presented why I think my path is better--if you still disagree I'd love to see your analysis.

I'm trying to keep this constructive but I guess I think you should post more than a couple of lines for your teammates prior to playing the turn. The rest of us have been putting more effort into planning the turn and I think that makes for a more rewarding experience for everyone.

I think I'd go ahead and research Alphabet ASAP. In this particular case, since we already have 2+ civs with it, we may well want to trade it (probably to someone close to Mao or Vicky who would probably get it soon anyway) right off the bat. Otherwise, I don't think we'll have much to trade with.

I think exploration needs to be key as well. We've got 10 more potential trading partners out there we need to meet, and as such, I think now is the time for OB. We're north of the equator, so I believe I'd start to the south. We can use 1 trireme, maybe 2, but it's a bit of a risk if Alex comes knocking again. We can always build WB's for the purpose later if we need to, but I think we really need to start scouting out our neighbors and meeting the rest of the world. Actually, since we're Hindu, we probably want to explore Ghandi 's territory quickly, so that we can hopefully get some new trade routes and get have Hinduism spread in from his cities.

I'd let Rostov go ahead and finish it's axe, then build the WB. Working the current 2 tiles, it finishes both before it's culture expands. Moscow can switch back to the WB (3 turns.) After that, maybe it should start working on military (swords mainly) since it's our only city with a barracks. A library is in the cards for St. Pete since it has so much food and can easily run 2 scientists. Since Novgorod already has a library and a granary, perhaps it should begin work on a barracks. Another possibility is that once it's grown it can build a spare WB or 2 for exploration.

At the end of the day, I think 2N of the rice is the best spot for our new city. It should start off with a granary build, then library. It will be painfully slow to build in at first, but the city will bring in all sorts of commerce once it expands it's culture and grows.

We're north of the equator, so I believe I'd start to the south.

Why do you think we are north? I would assume south as we have jungle to the N and crabs to the S. I believe they fixed the bug on the resources that told you where you were.

Actually, since we're Hindu, we probably want to explore Ghandi 's territory quickly, so that we can hopefully get some new trade routes and get have Hinduism spread in from his cities.

I thought we get the trade routes from OB, whether we have explored or not.
Actually I would prioritize exploration to the north, as we are most likely to lose OB with our religious antagonists and as I believe we are to the south.

I'd send a warrior over to Mao to explore by land.

I agree that exploration is critical here--there is just a huge difference when you have more AI to trade with and I also agree that we will have to trade alpha.

After that, maybe it should start working on military (swords mainly) since it's our only city with a barracks.

I'd put a lib there as well before building swords--I think a mistake not to build it ever and if we're building it better sooner. We don't have an urgent need for military.

I think our military will come together pretty quick as we have 3 good production cities. Also having lost the blue commerce (for a while) makes me think infra.

Since Novgorod already has a library and a granary, perhaps it should begin work on a barracks. Another possibility is that once it's grown it can build a spare WB or 2 for exploration.


I'm a fan of get your exploration done asap--so I'd build the WB I need for that before the barracks.

Me too, but have so little trirremes (I don't like exploring with Work Boats). Should we risk getting 2 of the current trirremes out and replace them later?

Here are my thoughts:


Culture expansion should be through religion or library. The obilisk approach uses extra beakers & hammers that are needed elsewhere.
Yellow city should build granary->library
Moscow(?) should queue the chariot. We do not need to pay the maintenance cost for it. Plus it is available in one turn if we need it.
We should OB quickly and send either galleys or workboats. The triremes should stay close to home under the premise of "The best defense is a good offense."
Nogorad should build workboat next for exploration.
Reasearch should be alphabet->metal casting. We need to get a great engineer sooner than later and forges make that possible. Forges will also help with hammers and :) when combined with Gems.
IIRC, the latest patch fixed the equator-resource arrow bug.

IIRC, the latest patch fixed the equator-resource arrow bug.

Bugger! Forget I said it then. Well, we know there are civs on the other side of Egypt and India (at least that's where Mali and England came from) so those may be our best options for exploration. Maybe a trireme to explore Mao, which would keep it fairly close to home.

Well, we know there are civs on the other side of Egypt and India (at least that's where Mali and England came from) so those may be our best options for exploration.


I am wondering if we can circumnavigate with workboats. We should consider an East-West exploration route to see if this is possible.

Me too, but have so little trirremes (I don't like exploring with Work Boats). Should we risk getting 2 of the current trirremes out and replace them later?
I would vote yes.

Reasearch should be alphabet->metal casting. We need to get a great engineer sooner than later and forges make that possible. Forges will also help with hammers and :) when combined with Gems.


This might make sense for another maybe even bigger reason. Since MC is more expensive, it can be more easily traded for the important HR and COL as possibly even construction and currency. While it is unlikely we get them all, MC has huge trade value. If we go COL, we have to get a bit lucky to trade for HR, and the others are impossible unless we have alpha to go as well.

Again this really shows how critical it is to get more contacts.

I am wondering if we can circumnavigate with workboats. We should consider an East-West exploration route to see if this is possible.

We might need 3 or 4 boats exploring--if that is possible it would be really a shame to miss it (and if so the AI will likely do it as well so we must hurry).

Me too, but have so little trirremes (I don't like exploring with Work Boats). Should we risk getting 2 of the current trirremes out and replace them later?
I think on this map WB are OK to explore--with so many AI much less chance of barbs.

Maybe a trireme to explore Mao, which would keep it fairly close to home.
Why not a warrior for that? We are a bit short on navy to explore and I think it makes sense to keep the galley around for communication. The warrior might also be able to see some of Alex that a ship wouldn't.

I think on this map WB are OK to explore--with so many AI much less chance of barbs.

it's not barbs I'm worried about. The workboats and trirremes are so slow that when they get far enough most likely we will get declared on, and work boats will die instantly. On the other hand, workboats are cheaper/faster to build.

Anyways, I'll get to a Pc with CivIV within the next 2 hours, so I'll be better informed then.

The workboats and trirremes are so slow that when they get far enough most likely we will get declared on, and work boats will die instantly.

this has not happened to me. Not to say that it couldn't but I don't follow the reasoning. Generally my experience has been that an AI that DOW's me is a neighbor or has sent troops to attack my territory. I've never had an ai attack me to kill a WB.

Ok, it's done.
Highlights: Piramyds built by China. Researched Agroculture. Alphabet will be ready in 6 turns.
Sent 1 trireme east, 1 west and 1 south on a short trip (which is now returning).
1 warrior is scouting China's land.
Met Inca, Aztec, German.
OB with everyone (except the newly met), although commercially is overkill, since we only have 1 trade route per city for now.
The trireme going west met a seemingly dead end, so it is now going a little back to try another route (thorugh India's waters).

save game: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC0325_01.CivWarlordsSave

Autolog:
Research begun: Agricultura
Moscú begins: Barco faenero
San Petersburgo grows: 3
Nóvgorod grows: 2

Turn 135 (475 BC)
Moscú grows: 3

Turn 136 (460 BC)
Yaroslavl founded
Yaroslavl begins: Biblioteca
Yaroslavl begins: Granero
Yaroslavl begins: Biblioteca
Yaroslavl begins: Granero
Yaroslavl begins: Biblioteca
Moscú finishes: Barco faenero

Turn 137 (445 BC)
Tech learned: Agricultura

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Research begun: Alfabeto

Turn 139 (415 BC)
Contact made: Incan Empire
Moscú grows: 4
San Petersburgo grows: 4

Turn 140 (400 BC)
Nóvgorod's borders expand
Nóvgorod finishes: Barco faenero
Rostov finishes: Soldado con hacha

Turn 141 (385 BC)
Nóvgorod begins: Faro
Rostov begins: Barco faenero
Nóvgorod begins: Trirreme

Turn 142 (370 BC)
Rostov grows: 3

Turn 143 (355 BC)
Contact made: German Empire
Moscú grows: 5
Rostov's borders expand

Turn 144 (340 BC)
Contact made: Aztec Empire
Moscú begins: Carro
Nóvgorod grows: 3

Turn 145 (325 BC)



PD: I will be going away on tuesday for the week.

attached a screenshot of the East

Ok, it's done.
Highlights: Piramyds built by China. Researched Agroculture. Alphabet will be ready in 6 turns.

Awesome! Let's get him! Great Lighthouse and Pyramids - right on our doorstep! I think worth it to consider how to build an army to take Mao out as our highest priority. Can we do it now with a unit rush, or must we wait for constuction?

My personal preference would be to finish alpha, get to construction as fast as possible while building up swords to take out Mao.

As I said before, not a huge deal, but did anyone else think it was correct to change our research path to agriculture?

Danthor could you please explain your reasons for this decision?

I have already posted my reasons why I thought it was a mistake--how can I learn if I don't get feedback?

Am I the only one who is annoyed if the team research path is redirected without any anyalsis or explanation other than it is "just two or 3 turns" (that is of course neither)?

Danthor if you are reading the posts which you seem to be this time you would have read that the following teammates had weighed in on the research path in favor of alpha:
grogs, myself, llib_rm. MS had expressed some support but not clear for ag. 2 others had not responded. As we were the majority of opinions expressed (and all strongly) are we not owed some discussion before you redirected the path?

Am I the only one who is annoyed if the team research path is redirected without any anyalsis or explanation other than it is "just two or 3 turns" (that is of course neither)?


ungy, as you mention - I was OK with the switch to agriculture, I think it will help the city grow faster before border expansion. I would have built a granary first in that city however as someone else (you?) suggested.

In any case I agree with what you are saying - I think everyone, including Danthor (& me, too!) should post all the details of their strategy before the turn is played so we can come to a consensus as a team about the best way forward. Danthor I think the problem people are having about your sets comes down to your lack of detail in your pre-turn posts. In many cases you disregard your teammates' advice without explanation. As long as you explain your point of view, I'm sure you will have no trouble with the strategy.

I would like to know why you started a library in the new city rather than the granary. I don't know how the agriculture strategy works without a granary there...

In any case I'm excited about taking out Mao - am I just a crazy warmonger or is this not a good idea?

Well, the things is like this:
In its current state, Yaroslavl is total crap. All the good tiles are in the fat cross so we need to expand its border quickly. Without relying on getting lucky enough to get Hindu spread to it (and we can't train missionaries yet), the only alternative is to build cultural stuff there.
Library is the only cultural building available. A granary would only delay the lib., and since there is barely any production there a pop rush is needed to finish the granary, so why not just rush the lib on the first place.

About agricult.: we needed it now for Yarslavl, and since it was quick, I took it. With the rice we will also avoid annoying some of the leaders nagging with their extra rice for our extra iron (Happened twice in my turnset).

In any case I'm excited about taking out Mao - am I just a crazy warmonger or is this not a good idea?

Wouldn't it be wiser to take out the english city from our island before it strengthtens its position? It totally cuts our territory in half, the bastard :(

Library is the only cultural building available. A granary would only delay the lib., and since there is barely any production there a pop rush is needed to finish the granary, so why not just rush the lib on the first place.


Sounds logical--however, the reason to post these ideas prior to the turn is so others can comment. The reality is that you can rush the lib EARLIER by rushing a gran first AND you have the gran. Work it out for yourself if you don't believe me. If you get religion first, obviously the gran is better. There is no harm at all done here as we can switch to a gran and rush at 2--we would go lib next so it makes absolutely no difference in this case.

I forgot:
IMHO getting the 2 very cheap tech before trading is best because the more "advanced" techs will be ermmm.... "less valuable to trade in the AI eyes", hence cheaper for us (I don't know how to phrase that better at this time lol).

Sounds logical--however, the reason to post these ideas prior to the turn is so others can comment. The reality is that you can rush the lib EARLIER by rushing a gran first AND you have the gran. Work it out for yourself if you don't believe me. If you get religion first, obviously the gran is better. There is no harm at all done here as we can switch to a gran and rush at 2--we would go lib next so it makes absolutely no difference in this case.

Well, I'm no fan of bonus-rushing and using such "techniques", so I unconsciously ignore them. In any case, 2 pop is needed to rush, so we can switch now and still get enough time to rush the granary.

About agricult.: we needed it now for Yarslavl, and since it was quick, I took it. With the rice we will also avoid annoying some of the leaders nagging with their extra rice for our extra iron (Happened twice in my turnset).

Unless I am mistaken, there is no relations penalty for refusing a trade.

I promise I will not comment on Danthor's sets either before or after.
Not worth the aggravation. I'll just treat as a clean start after he plays.

Well, I'm no fan of bonus-rushing and using such "techniques", so I unconsciously ignore them. In any case, 2 pop is needed to rush, so we can switch now and still get enough time to rush the granary.
Has nothing to do with the pop-rush bug from vanilla. It's just that a lib needs at least 4 pop to rush and you get there faster with an expansive civ by building the gran.

As I already stated, because we are short sets this can be corrected without any cost at all.

I forgot:
IMHO getting the 2 very cheap tech before trading is best because the more "advanced" techs will be ermmm.... "less valuable to trade in the AI eyes", hence cheaper for us (I don't know how to phrase that better at this time lol).

Sorry makes no sense at all.

There is a good argument for not trading for cheap techs in a "normal" game setting as there is a lifetime trade limit with each AI--here we have lots to chose from and we can trade the cheapies with AI that won't be around long so it doesn't apply.

Wouldn't it be wiser to take out the english city from our island before it strengthtens its position? It totally cuts our territory in half, the bastard :(

Yeah, you are probably right about getting rid of the english city first & consolidating our island. It's just too good to be true that the best wonder for this map (great lighthouse) and the pyramids (always good!) are built by our nearest neighbor!

Yeah, you are probably right about getting rid of the english city first & consolidating our island. It's just too good to be true that the best wonder for this map (great lighthouse) and the pyramids (always good!) are built by our nearest neighbor!



The English city isn't going anywhere and shouldn't affect our coastal trade routes. I would prefer to let England get out the weed wacker and develop the land before we take it. We should make Mao our first target since he will only get stronger as time progresses. Getting those wonders will be huge.

Well, the things is like this:


Actually, it is like this:

We have all agreed to play as a team, not as a collectiion of individuals. A team means that we have a common set of strategies, tactics, and logistics. That these are rationalized and debated to form a consensus on which is the best/logical approach. That the player has an obligation to follow the consensus or clearly state beforehand as to why the differing approach is better.

Since you do not rationalize any of your moves in your plan, do not change your point of view when shown a superior approach, and make moves which are contrary to the consensus, people are upset with you.

The fact that is has been pointed out on many occasions and you do not change is disrespectful to the rest of us.

I played as I thought it was the best. How would I know you guys adore the freaking granaries so much? :eek: Anyways there's no loss there since it can be changed.

This Sgotm is no fun anymore since the "team" has become obsessed with the ****ing laurels :S


Anyways, if MY turnset was already laid out what's the point of taking turns to play?

I hope you get your stupid laurels, otherwise it's gonna be "it's Danthor's fault, Danthor this, Danthor that".
bleh

I've got computer problems so I'm going to need a skip.

This Sgotm is no fun anymore since the "team" has become obsessed with the ****ing laurels :S

I can't speak for the others but for me it's about the process and not the results. At the start we agreed on a process, and I thought you agreed as well on page 2 of this thread. Was that incorrect?

I hope to learn something from these games, and without discussion that can't happen. It's also no fun to think about a strategy, post it, and then see the next player totally ignore it without any explanation.

As for the results, you didn't hurt us too much with your set and nearly all the sets have had errors but that is not really the point.

Anyways, if MY turnset was already laid out what's the point of taking turns to play?



The point is that we all get the opportunity to be involved in every turn regardless of who plays. That is why I encourage you to become more involved with the discussions. Your point of view seems different than most, and expressing that point of view in a rationale arguement can sway the discussion.

I've got computer problems so I'm going to need a skip.



mushroomshirt
Danthor - Just Played
RobertTheBruce - On Deck
llib_rm - Up now
ungy
Lmtoops
Grogs


It looks like I am up. I will post a plan and try to play Thursday night.

I've got computer problems so I'm going to need a skip.

Just curious - what sort of problems. Having just solved a problem myself, maybe I can help?

In my case I was getting a lot of crashes to the desktop. On the microsoft error reporting dialog box that popped up it said something about storage medium errors. Stupid me I figured microsoft was just blaming the hard drive (don't software engineers always blame the hardware for their bugs?). But it turned out my HDD was dying and it needed replacing. Ever since I've had no problem.

Just curious - what sort of problems. Having just solved a problem myself, maybe I can help?

In my case I was getting a lot of crashes to the desktop. On the microsoft error reporting dialog box that popped up it said something about storage medium errors. Stupid me I figured microsoft was just blaming the hard drive (don't software engineers always blame the hardware for their bugs?). But it turned out my HDD was dying and it needed replacing. Ever since I've had no problem.

I've got a bad HDD and the battery has a problem as well. I have a temporary computer without CIV while the IT department decides if it is worth fixing. It will probably be another week until I get it or a replacement back.

My machine stopped running on the battery and started running a disk check on every boot. After a couple of times finding bad sectors during the boot process, it just gave up. At least it was pretty obvious I needed a good back-up right before it died.

Thoughts for the next set:

I think we will likely want to lose the religion. We've got a lot of trading to do and we are taking major hits for religion and don't think the benefits are worth it.

I'm actually leaning toward attacking Vic but I'm not sure. As I see it, the downside is
1)that we're not really sure how long before she settles, and she is pretty advanced so we won't be able to buy her off with tech.

2) we will take the "you declared on my friend" hit. However, if we do this soon she has only 3 contacts that we have so it is more manageable. We may only take the hit with MM and Gandhi, and those are the two most forgiving.

The upside:
1. the AI don't grow that kind of city too well. We will make it grow fast and it is a good one.

2. There may never be a great time to take Vic--there are a lot of closer and weaker AI's so we may never end up getting it if we don't do it soon.

3. We will be in a period soon where we are building our army to attack Mao, but that is a much bigger project. So a "phony" war for 15-20 turns while we build up won't hurt us much.

4. It does cut us in half--now that isn't too important given OB and we can road her territory. I would rate that barely worth mentioning--far less important than it seems on the surface.

5. She has limited paths to attack--I would think 2 triremes should block here fine--we've built a really strong navy so might as well use it for something.

Trading: might make sense to pause once alpha is in if there is a tough call. Obviously make the big trade first before alpha devalues--likely only math here. I'd trade for the little ones with someone weak like Alex to avoid the WFYABTA later. If we get really lucky, there may be a path to trade for COL or mon if that civ doesn't have math or IW (unlikely).

As for builds:
I'm for a lib in moscow--I know it's not the greatest commerce but it's still the cap and pretty early. We've got a long tech road ahead. Obviously we switch to gran in Yar and whip asap--no harm done there tho.

I'd build no more triremes other than those in construction--Rostov to barracks after WB, Nov to bar after tri (or skip the tri altogether). Not sure what in St.Pt. after lib and when to whip that.

MM--I'd work the river cottage in St. Pt. over the spices one. I'm still for plantationing that later so better to develop the other.

Scout aggressively--esp to see if there is a circumnav possible.

Tech wise I'd mm to hit alpha with the minimum % on the last turn and then go back to 0%. I'd probaly stay at 0 for the rest of the set--not sure what to go for next. Probably constuction assuming we can immediately trade for masonry and math. Mao is protective so I think cats for Beijing ASAP.

2. There may never be a great time to take Vic--there are a lot of closer and weaker AI's so we may never end up getting it if we don't do it soon.


I feel just the opposite. I think that city is ju