If we're going to try and pick up some 'honest' diplo votes, I suggest we beeline MM and build the UN ASAP. We want so see if we'll actually be able to get their votes before we redirect our troops away from Mansa/Hatty/HC.

If we're going to try and pick up some 'honest' diplo votes, I suggest we beeline MM and build the UN ASAP. We want so see if we'll actually be able to get their votes before we redirect our troops away from Mansa/Hatty/HC.
I think we can do some upgrades. Since we are growing Beijing anyway, we don't get the full benefit of the beeline and a few cannon would really speed things up.

Some trade/MM:
Again I don't think we should work eng specs. It's better to work a 2f, 2c tile and whip(or a 3f tile). I'd get the cities on max food and get rid of the specs.


Yeah - sorry about that - I thought I had gotten rid of them :(

As for plans post Gandhi, I'm not sure about Toku. Looking at his lands it's a little difficult getting around by sea and the most convenient cities are on hills. Doable, of course, but I think a little slower and more costly than I would like as he could have some pretty tough defenders.

I like RTB's plan to actually incorporate some diplo here.

I was thinking about skipping Toku too. There is not a very good set-up logistically/geographically for an invasion. I was thinking of skipping right to MM, but if we want to court his votes, then I will hold off and go for Izzy...

I was going to finish up tonight, but I think I should wait until we have some consensus on civics changes vs. upgrades. I think we wait until after upgrades for changing. The eastern army is pretty crappy even with reinforcements coming and can't make the kind of monster headway that the western army can.

As far as our next victims - will definitely be somebody else's problem but I'm OK with Izzy & the RTB plan.

Yeah - sorry about that - I thought I had gotten rid of them

Don't sweat it--you've done a good job of managing a two front war and builds. That's a lot to deal with.

Who is playing next?

Who is playing next?

Well mushroomshirt is finishing up. After that, it should be RTB up and llib_rm on deck.

Haven't heard any other opinions, so I will finish up tonight completing the upgrades & holding off on the civics changes for now (at least my remaining 5 or so turns)

I played four more turns. I think time to pass the torch here.

Summary: Upgrades are pretty far along - maybe time to stop. We are engaged in a mutual military struggle with MM against Frederick.http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_AD1400_01.CivWarlordsSave

Save is here

Details:
Turn 15 1376 continued...
Maximize production in Moscow
Get rid of all engineers except Athens and Nottingham (for culture pop)
Maximize food in Beijing
Switch Moscow and Rostov to cannon
Renegotiate trade deals across the board
Gift MM and Hatty some resources - not sure it makes a difference at this point but do it anyway...
Get MM to declare on Frederick (plus 290 gold) for physics
Liberalism to Saladin for 180g
Wait until next turn for other trades since can't upgrade eastern army this turn...

Turn 16 1382
Philosophy to Izzy for 100g
Electricity to MM for Replaceable parts, economics world map
Education to Washington for 120g
Sci Method to Louis for 190g
Bombard Delhi
Bombard Persepolis

Turn 17 1388
Take Delhi, no losses
Bombard persepolis, load cannon onto galleons to take out persepolis
Move troops toward Bombay (it is on a hill, but still should be able to take it with minimal losses assuming it is weakly defended)

Turn 18 1394
Novgorod, Yar and Athens build macemen, switch to cannon
Bombay has musketman, LB, crossbow some with CGII so detour to upgrade western army to cannon next turn
Attach general to knight get him to medic III. Land troops to attack persepolis next turn

Turn 19 1400
IBT MM asks to declare on Frederick - YES!
Trade Sci method to HC for 290 gold.
Take Persepolis (no losses)
Upgrade Cats and Trebs from western army to Cannon-should be able to take Bombay this way (next set)
I think this is probably a good place to stop. I didn't make it as far as I wanted with India - but at least upgrades are pretty complete. I think we might be able to return to research at this point, but not sure... In any case, probably time to hand over the reins.


Extra details:
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Galleon (4.40) vs Cyrus's Trireme (2.20)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Cyrus's Trireme is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Galleon is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Cyrus's Trireme is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Cyrus's Trireme is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Galleon is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Galleon is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Cyrus's Trireme is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Galleon has defeated Cyrus's Trireme!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (12.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (7.38)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 94.4%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Plot Defense: +28%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (12.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (6.18)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 98.6%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Plot Defense: +28%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (13.20) vs Gandhi's Maceman (9.44)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Combat Odds: 88.0%
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Plot Defense: +28%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Gandhi's Maceman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Maceman!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have captured Lahore!!!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Deal Canceled: Clam to Washington for Gold Per Turn (5)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Deal Canceled: Spices to Huayna Capac for Gold Per Turn (11)
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mansa Musa has declared war on Frederick!
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Kublai Khan has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 10 on the next turn
Turn 286, 1376 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Theocracy!

Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Knight (11.00) vs Cyrus's Immortal (5.40)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Knight is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Cyrus's Immortal is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Cyrus's Immortal is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Knight is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Cyrus's Immortal is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Knight is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Cyrus's Immortal is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Knight has defeated Cyrus's Immortal!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: You have discovered Economics!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: You have discovered Replaceable Parts!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 75%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 93%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 74%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 60%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 50%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Trebuchet has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 26%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Your Trebuchet has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 0%!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 10
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Hastings will grow to size 13 on the next turn
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Shanghai has grown to size 14
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Nanjing will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Athens will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Cyrus adopts Free Market!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Catapult (5.00) vs Short Straw's Grenadier (8.97)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Combat Odds: 6.0%
Turn 287, 1382 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 13 (55/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Catapult is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 13 (42/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Catapult is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Gandhi's Catapult is hit for 29 (13/100HP)

Turn 288, 1388 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Lahore!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (13.20) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (7.20)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (12.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (5.71)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (12.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (6.30)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 98.5%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (14.40) vs Gandhi's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (13.20) vs Gandhi's Pikeman (8.10)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 95.9%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Pikeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Pikeman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: You have captured Delhi!!!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier (14.40) vs Gandhi's Catapult (0.65)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 288, 1388 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Gandhi's Catapult is hit for 40 (0/100HP)
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Short Straw's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Catapult!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Grenadier has destroyed a Catapult!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 65%!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 60%!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 55%!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Mansa Musa has 130 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Rostov will grow to size 11 on the next turn
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Hastings has grown to size 13
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Nanjing has grown to size 7
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Athens has grown to size 16
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Novgorod's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Nottingham's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 288, 1388 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa

Turn 289, 1394 AD: Short Straw's Frigate (8.80) vs Gandhi's Caravel (3.60)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 289, 1394 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Short Straw's Frigate is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Short Straw's Frigate is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Gandhi's Caravel is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Short Straw's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Caravel!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Frigate has destroyed a Caravel!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 50%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 45%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 40%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 35%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ? for Antium.
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Louis XIV has 120 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Huayna Capac has 290 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Rostov has grown to size 11
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Corinth will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Pisae will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Rome will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Cumae will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: The borders of Nottingham have expanded!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in York. Work has now begun on a Culture.
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Francis Bacon (Great Scientist) has been born in Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Hatshepsut adopts Free Market!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Amir Khusro (Great Artist) has been born in Bombay (Gandhi)!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Saladin adopts Free Market!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: St. Thomas Aquinas (Great Prophet) has been born in Paris (Louis XIV)!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Hastings's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 290, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Novgorod!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Deal Canceled: Crab to Frederick for Gold Per Turn (2)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Frederick for Open Borders
Turn 290, 1400 AD: You have declared war on Frederick!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Julius Caesar has declared war on Frederick!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Victoria has declared war on Frederick!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 30%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 25%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 20%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Frigate has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 15%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Persepolis to 3%!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon (12.00) vs Cyrus's Longbowman (9.06)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 73.1%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +1%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon has defeated Cyrus's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon (12.00) vs Cyrus's Longbowman (7.79)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 93.4%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +1%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (2 Units)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (63/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (40/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (17/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon has defeated Cyrus's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon (12.00) vs Cyrus's Longbowman (6.52)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +1%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 24 (48/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 24 (24/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon has defeated Cyrus's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon (12.00) vs Cyrus's Spearman (2.41)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Plot Defense: +1%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 34 (18/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Cyrus's Spearman is hit for 34 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Short Straw's Cannon has defeated Cyrus's Spearman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Cannon has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: You have captured Persepolis!!!



Not sure who is next. Is it Danthor? Haven't heard from him in a while...

A couple more things for the next player...

*There are some ships with goto orders
*There is a cannon with lots of promotions coming its way 2N of Persepolis. This unit got 10/20 experience points from th great general. I figured it was a wast to go too much beyond medicIII on that knight.

Great job mushroomshirt! Its really hard trying to manage two wars and a huge number of cities.

Its definitely Danthor's turn since we skipped him last set. I think we have enough military right now so I would revolt immediately. We can build up some cash during anarchy by conquering a couple of cities and try to get to Mass Media as fast as possible.

Good work ms. You've had some pretty tough turns to play and played them well.

I guess I'm ok with the civics changes. It looks like there's a good chance they'll actually work and get us a couple of votes, assuming we leave HC unmolested.

After that, I think we need to head for Mass Media and the UN full speed. Beijing (or any other city we've got) isn't going to be large enough to build the UN in a single turn, so we want to get started on it as soon as possible. We may get a second engineer from Athens in 22 turns, but I wouldn't expect it.

I know Danthor said he'd be back in March, but I haven't heard anything from him. I'll drop him a PM to check and see, but since we're under a bit of a time crunch (doing OK I think, but can't afford to just let the game sit idle for a week) I think RTB (if available) ought to start getting ready for the next set in the event Danthor isn't back or isn't ready to play yet.

I've been counting up the numbers we need to acheive our victory and here's what I'm coming up with:

Need: 690 votes for diplo. victory

We own: 288
Vassals own: 18 :lol:
Ghandi/Cy/Fred (after capture/capitulation): 86

That brings us up to 392/1114 votes (35.2%) If we're able to secure Mansa and Hatty's votes, we'll have maybe 536 votes (48.1%)

We need 690 for a victory, so somehow we'll need to add another 154 votes. We need to come up with a good plan for acheiving that.

Off hand, I see 6 (more) civs we can attack without upsetting Mansa/Hatty: Tokugawa, Isabella, Kublai Khan, Montezuma, Saladin, or Mao. The easiest way to hit ~154 pop would seem to be either Toku+Louis+Isabella (166) or Monte+Kublai (153.) Because it's so close, we can always add China at the last minute if we need just a couple of extra votes.

Does anyone have thoughts on how long we need to pull off one of these two options? I would guess 40 turns or so, which means our military is beginning to catch up with our tech so I think it's time to get the UN built.

Well mushroomshirt is finishing up. After that, it should be RTB up and llib_rm on deck.

I have been following the messages, but have been too busy to downlaod and comment. I will start to become more active.

Good work ms. You've had some pretty tough turns to play and played them well.

Thanks - they were pretty tough and MM is not really my specialty so hope my mistakes are manageable.

Does anyone have thoughts on how long we need to pull off one of these two options? I would guess 40 turns or so, which means our military is beginning to catch up with our tech so I think it's time to get the UN built.

I agree our military is ready & time for civics change now. Moving by galleon I think each army should be able to take a city approx. every 4 turns. This gives us something in the neighborhood of 20 more cities over the next 2 sets before the UN is built. Seems like a lot of cities to me.

I recommend following someone's suggestions from a few posts back and DOW on our targets early so we have a chance at early capitulation. I have never had any luck at capitulating civs until they are down to their last few crappy cities, but maybe we will get lucky...

I haven't heard anything back from Danthor. We should still have at least one more full or almost full turnset left after this one, so if he shows up we can still give him a chance to play. We've got just over 3 weeks to finish. Again, not panic-time -- we're doing OK -- I just don't want to potentially lose several days waiting on someone and end up in panic mode. Also, I'd like to put this SG to rest and see how some of the other teams have done/are doing. ;) That said, if you're available to play RTB, why don't you start getting your thoughts together. If not, it would be llib_rm up next.

The good news is that we've passed most of the major decision points in the game. The main decisions seem to be when to switch civics and who to beat up on, but we've passed the point where there are 48 things that need to happen during a set and only time to do 10. :lol:

I'll try tp put a plan together tomorrow. I'm going to be out of town this weekend so llib_rm can go if he wants to play this weekend.

So here's my plan.

1. Revolt to Free Market, Organized Religion and Confucianism immediately. This will start building our relationship with Mansa and Hatty before the UN is built and postpone maintenance costs for 4 turns. We can take a few cities to hopefully allow 100% research to finish Radio.

2. Postpone any more upgrades until we are finished research. We have pretty good armies and I will try to save the catapults for upgrade after we are finished research. If someone finishes the Taj Mahal soon it may free up some cash we can trade for to keep our research going quickly toward Mass Media. Otherwise, fund research with conquest gold. I don't think I can finish Mass Media in 20 turns with anarchy but the engineer should be able to build the U.N. in one turn in Beijing at size 15 with Organized Religion.

3. Switch Moscow to build 3 or 4 grenadiers. The eastern army is short of stack defenders and the medic might end up fighting.

4. Proposed attack route: The western army will capitulate Ghandi and head through Louis while the eastern army finishes Cyrus and Fred. I aim to attack Monte simultaneously in the north and south to blunt any counterattack. The eastern army will take the capital and small southern cities while the western army takes the rest of his main island.

The eastern army can then take Isabella. I'm not sure of the best path for the western army. It will have its reinforcements stretched pretty thin by this point. We can either head for Atlanta (without reinforcements) or Kublai (join reinforcements) who are stretched across several islands and won't be able to counter effectively. Reinforcements can either join this attack or try to take Kyoto for a big population burst for the vote. Louis and Monte will add about 120 votes so Louis, Monte, Izzy and a couple of cities in the north should push over the required population.

RTB - seems like a good plan to me.

I think you may be surprised - the western army is very powerful as-is you may find after Monty that you don't need reinforcements & won't necessarily have to double-back to Kublai. In any case you can decide later.

There are a few sets of macemen on the way over to join the eastern army that could selectively get upgraded to grens as necessary without slowing down research too much. Supply lines to the eastern army from our main production centers are already pretty long so upgrading a few may be a good trade off even if you are prioritizing research.

MS-good set. You had a lot going on for each of those turns--you did a good job of keeping things in line on all fronts.

. I don't think I can finish Mass Media in 20 turns with anarchy but the engineer should be able to build the U.N. in one turn in Beijing at size 15 with Organized Religion.

The engineer does NOT get the org religion bonus--so I think we should keep growing Beijing and also send over several workers to MM once Mass Media is in. We can start workshops on the farms and towns and as soon as we've grown for the last time complete those as well as chop the forest. I don't think we can build it in one turn but should be pretty quick. If we're around 20 growing turns from MM we should be able to get Beijing to at least 18 and maybe 19. That'll be around 1250 of the 1500H, another 50 from the chop so I think we should be able to whip turn 2 even with the whipping penalty for wonders. Might as well get a bunch of workers over there later in your set anyway as I could be mistaken about the whip.

Need: 690 votes for diplo. victory

We own: 288
Vassals own: 18 :lol:
Ghandi/Cy/Fred (after capture/capitulation): 86

That brings us up to 392/1114 votes (35.2%) If we're able to secure Mansa and Hatty's votes, we'll have maybe 536 votes (48.1%)

We need 690 for a victory, so somehow we'll need to add another 154 votes. We need to come up with a good plan for acheiving that.

One factor here is that we do some pretty serious pop damage when we capture cities. This will be balanced probably to a large extent by our much higher pop growth than the AI.

4. Proposed attack route: The western army will capitulate Ghandi and head through Louis while the eastern army finishes Cyrus and Fred.

I'm not sure I have a better idea but there are a few complications with Louis.
He has a DP with Toku, and Toku will likely take Karachi and Calcutta.
Louis also has MT but not gunpowder. Toku has gunpowder but is otherwise much more backward. We have to assume I think that Louis will soon have cav. He has no horse but gets it in trade from Toku. We could land and pillage both of Toku's horse on turn 1 of a war--not sure if the diversion is worth it but I think we should scout Louis with the caravel by Izzie to decide.

My guess is that we are stuck with war with Toku/Louis as I don't see how we get the votes w/o them or pissing off our would be allies.

When Gandhi caps we can get incense, and when Cyrus caps we can get silver so that should help the WW.

Some MM--Vic will OB. Yar I think needs a little reworking--we're working an eng and also farming a workshop--that seems like a contradiction. We could switch a farm to a town in Moscow and starve a little bit--add some commerce for a while. We might want to clear the jungle for Vic to let canturbury grow. Not sure if it's worth taking the $ from KK in trade but it seems to be getting harder to find.

I'd also build some LBs (don't need barracks) for garrison duty. I think we need several for indian and persian lands.

The engineer does NOT get the org religion bonus--so I think we should keep growing Beijing and also send over several workers to MM once Mass Media is in. We can start workshops on the farms and towns and as soon as we've grown for the last time complete those as well as chop the forest. I don't think we can build it in one turn but should be pretty quick. If we're around 20 growing turns from MM we should be able to get Beijing to at least 18 and maybe 19. That'll be around 1250 of the 1500H, another 50 from the chop so I think we should be able to whip turn 2 even with the whipping penalty for wonders. Might as well get a bunch of workers over there later in your set anyway as I could be mistaken about the whip.

Do we even get the OR bonus for building the UN? It's different than a normal wonder in a lot of ways, especially pop-rushing. In any case, we have several options for finishing up the UN. The first is obviously pop-rushing. We can also build it by hand - Beijing can steal the workshop from Argos and pull in 18/hpt, or 22hpt if the OR bonus applies to the UN and of course we can make that higher with some workers.

The question is going to be how badly we need the UN once we finish up Mass Media. If we're running at <40% population at that point, it probably makes sense to let Beijing start building the UN manually and use the engineer 10 turns later. I would reserve the pop-rush, as much as possible, for the situation where we're pretty sure we have/almost have the votes and need it right now since it means sacrificing 8-9 votes.

The question is going to be how badly we need the UN once we finish up Mass Media. If we're running at <40% population at that point, it probably makes sense to let Beijing start building the UN manually and use the engineer 10 turns later. I would reserve the pop-rush, as much as possible, for the situation where we're pretty sure we have/almost have the votes and need it right now since it means sacrificing 8-9 votes.
I think there is some advantage to getting it early to do a vote check but not sure if it's worth that whip.

This is off topic but a very useful thread on WFYABTA by Voice of Unreason
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

Also off topic but not too long ago I played the last SGOTM with the handicap that team fubar had--losing the settler to see if I could win.
actually it was pretty easy. I founded hindu, got a really early border pop from Bis (not sure exactly how since he didn't build an early wonder), and got horse in trade. Took him out with a stack of cats and a few HA then I was tech leader and consolidated for a while. Didn't actually play it out but it looked like a lock.

I'm not sure I have a better idea but there are a few complications with Louis.
He has a DP with Toku, and Toku will likely take Karachi and Calcutta.
Louis also has MT but not gunpowder. Toku has gunpowder but is otherwise much more backward. We have to assume I think that Louis will soon have cav. He has no horse but gets it in trade from Toku. We could land and pillage both of Toku's horse on turn 1 of a war--not sure if the diversion is worth it but I think we should scout Louis with the caravel by Izzie to decide.

My guess is that we are stuck with war with Toku/Louis as I don't see how we get the votes w/o them or pissing off our would be allies.

When Gandhi caps we can get incense, and when Cyrus caps we can get silver so that should help the WW.

I missed the DP and I'm glad you caught it. I agree we are stuck attacking Louis and Tokugawa. I wanted to avoid Toku because I think he will be the hardest fight. This leaves the eastern army in an awkward spot. I can't really fight Tokugawa and Monte at the same time. I'll try to get the eastern army through Polynesian to Spain. Finish Louis/Tokugawa the next set and Kublai for enough votes to get over the threshold.

I'll check the boards again this afternoon if there are any more comments before playing.

I played the first ten turns yesterday.

Short Summary:
Ghandi and Cyrus capitulated; Fred is gone. I declared war on Toku which brought Louis into the war. Monte declared war immediately after. I'm not sure if he was bribed or is just dogpiling. The war with Toku is going well, Horses are cut off and Toku's stacks should soon be eliminated. (Ghandi had a great stand in Calcutta and eliminated 4 of Toku's attackers and left 2 wounded for us to clean up.) The eastern army is preparing to attack Tenochtitlan and will slowly work up Monte's core.

The revolts are over and we are building our relationships with Mansa and Hatty.

Long summary:

Turn 0 1400AD:
Move some units on Galleons near Persia. Frigates start bombarding Bombay
Revolt to Organized Religion and Free Markets (3 turns anarchy).

Turn 1 1406AD:
Land first units near Pasargadae (4xLB,Spear)

Turn 2 1412AD:
Bombarding bombay and Pasargadae

IBT:
Horse Archer attacks Persepolis: killed by mace
H.C. finishes Taj Mahal and starts a golden age, unfortunately no one else frees up a lot of gold for trade

Turn 3 1418AD:
Take Pasargadae (no losses) - Cyrus capitulates, demand silver
Take Bombay (lose 1 cannon) - Ghandi capitulates after killing a pike outside bombay, demand incense
Revolt to Confucianism (2 turns anarchy)
Get 140g from Mansa, 100g from Hatty; trade gems to Hatty for 1 gpt
Land first troops at Munich (2xLB,HA)

Turn 4 1424AD:
Split western army in two to attack Satsuma and pillage horses at Nagasaki
Bombard Munich

IBT:
Mao offers Open Borders, I accept

Turn 5 1430AD:
Bombard Munich
Demand 150g from Kublai

Turn 6 1436AD:
Take Munich (2xLB,HA) - No Losses
Land units at Berline (6xLB,lots of boats)

Turn 7 1442AD:
Finish Radio, start Mass Media
Moscow Gren->Gren
Hastings Gren-> LB
Cumae Lighthouse->LB
Bombard Berlin
DOW Tokugawa (and Louis through DP) - Land troops on horses at Nagasaki and beside Satsuma

IBT: Monte declares war on us

Turn 8 1448:
Take Berlin (6xLB) No losses
Pillage Horses at Nagasaki
Attack Satsuma (2LB, Samurai) Lose 1 Cannon
Samurai, Knight, Musket, Elephant vs 2LB, Elephant at Calcutta

IBT Japanese Catapult attacks pillaging stack at Nagasaki and dies

Turn 9 1454:
Take Hamburg (2xLB) Lose Mace - Fred is Gone
Take Nagasaki (LB,Pike) No Losses
Nagoya (LB,Axe, lots of boats) - Attack with scouting grenadier, kill LB

IBT: Three dagger stacks converge on Nagasaki (Knights, Trebuchets, Musket, Elephant, Horse Archers)

Turn 10 1460:
Abandon Nagasaki: I am trying to use this as a honey pot. Hopefully, Toku's trebs and knights will swarm in so I can kill them in the city.
Capture Nagoya (Axe)
Kill Knight and Samura outside of Calcutta
Trade Banking to Mao for 110g



I'm thinking about giving Scientific Method to Hatty to improve relations and trying to get both of them to declare on Monte for Chemistry. Does anyone disagree or have other ideas? I thought about trading for Military Tradition but I don't think we can use a DP to improve our relations since we will be always at war with someone.

Monte, Toku, and Louis are more than enough fighting for now. That should be close to enough votes to win.

RTB - taking on Monte, Toku, and Louis at the same time? You don't screw around do you? :lol:

Seriously though, it looks good. You've cracked a lot of skulls in the past 10 turns. I like what you're doing with Nagasaki. I've tried similar things in the past and I've gotten good results, though the geography isn't great here. I'm wondering if it would be possible to capitulate Toku without taking Kyoto. We'll lose a lot of population if we take it.

For Tenoch, we need to move a couple of frigates up to blockade all of those ships in the city. It's much easier to just sink them when we take the city than to have to do it with our navy.

Trade-wise, we've got a lot of resources. We should look at gifting them to our vassals. This will improve relations, allow them to grow larger cities (since they have few resources to trade now) and we can give them military resources like iron and horses which they will appreciate and may even build a decent unit or two. As I understand it, they can't break away unless we demand a resource and they refuse, so there's no chance of getting stabbed in the back. We should also open borders for the bonus and trade routes.

Bribing Mansa/Hatty into war probably isn't too bad of an idea. Rather than Monte, perhaps we should consider Louis. Since our troops are busy actually fighting with Toku and Monte, we're probably going to be at war with Louis longer than the other two. Once we're closer to Mass Media, we might think about trading him radio for MT. That way we can build a few cossacks for our final wars in case we start running into cavalry. After that, we won't need anymore techs to seal the deal and win the game.

BTW, nice work on the HOF. Top score for a Monarch diplomatic victory. That may come in handy. ;)

RTB-nice set. You had a ton going on and are making great progress.
Good job with Toku--he looks like far and away the toughest nut to crack.

I think I would trade radio for MT to MM. The chance of that giving up the UN is pretty small I think, and we should easily win the sec gen in any case.
For us to lose the UN MM would have to beeline mass media and then pop a GE. I think it's a chance worth taking, especially since I think it doesn't hurt us. For cossacks to do us much good, we really need to make the trade now I think.

I like getting MM and Hat to DOW Monte as well.

Some MM issues:
Knossos is working a coast tile that Beijing needs next turn. London can stop culture. Rome is building wealth. Several cities are working specs, my guess is we should fire them and grow and whip if necessary. Nottingham in particular needs to grow.

Also Gandhi, Cyrus, and Vic will OB.

Trade-wise, we've got a lot of resources. We should look at gifting them to our vassals. This will improve relations, allow them to grow larger cities (since they have few resources to trade now) and we can give them military resources like iron and horses which they will appreciate and may even build a decent unit or two.

Great idea.

BTW, nice work on the HOF. Top score for a Monarch diplomatic victory. That may come in handy. ;)

I saw that, way to milk the score for all it's worth. ;) Great Game!!

As for this game, I agree with milking our good relations as much as possible. You never know if it will make a difference. In other games, I have had other civs abstain for no apparent reason (that I could see).

Bribing MM and Hatty is a great idea. Not sure which civ to DOW (Monte, Luis)...use your best judgement.

Unless Cossack will speed up our victory, I would hold off on trading Radio. I agree it's highly unlikely someone else will get UN, but I don't think getting Cossacks will speed up our victory.

The next ten turns:

1460 IBT:
Monte attacks our stack near Tenochtitlan
kill Cat,Treb,Knight - Lose 2 Cannons and a Trebuchet withdraws

Near Nagasaki kill 3Knights and a Samurai - Lose 1 Cannon
Near Pasargadae Galleon kills Caravel, Trireme kills galleon and pillages whale nets

turn 11 1466AD:
Whip Lighthouse in Pasargadae and London
Whip Cannon Athens
Withdraw Eastern army from Tenochtitlan to Galleons - 2 healthy knights and 2 maces in Tenoch and we are badly damaged

Nagasaki now has Musket,3xKnight,2xElephant,2xHA,2xtreb
kill Musket, 3Knights,2Elephants,2Trebs
leave collateral damaged horse archers

Trade Radio to MM for Mil Trad, constitution and 60 gold

IBT 2 Longbows heading from Kyoto toward Nagasaki

Turn 12 1472:
Osaks (2xLB,Samurai) - No Losses and no more Iron for Toku
Great General appears in Yaroslav'l
Move Cannon to block longbow's path to Nagasaki

Turn 13 1478AD:
Build a military academy in Novgorad with the GG
Destroy 2 LB traveling toward Nagasaki (Lose a Cannon)
Kill HA in Nagasaki - 1 HA left
Land at Tenochtitlan again

IBT: Kill 2HA and lose a cannon at Tenochtitlan

Turn14 1484:
Begin bombarding Tenochtitlan

IBT:
Kill Elephant,Knight, HA at Tenochtitlan

Turn 15 1490:
Move toward Kyoto
Take Kagoshima (LB, 2Pikes) Lose 1 Cannon
Take Nagasaki (LB, Samurai, HA) no losses
Prepare to land Grenadier and cannons to cutoff Tenochtitlan from reinforcements

IBT:
Grenadier kills Trebuchet @Tenochtitlan
2 Cats on horses north of Tenochtitlan

Turn16 1496AD:
Amphibious assault: Cannon and Gren kill catapults and second cannon lands on horses

IBT:
Grenadier kills knight at Tenoch horses
Grenadier kills Trebuchet at Tenoch

Turn 17 1502AD:
Arrive at Kyoto

IBT: Cannon killed by Elephant north of Tenoch

Turn 18 1508AD:
Initial Tenochtitlan assault
Lose 2 cats,grenadier, cannon kill LB,2knights, xbow, jaguar - leaves Xbow,Knight, LB

Bombard Kyoto
Land at Lyons 2LB,Mace,Cavalry
Trade Chemistry to MM for DOW on Louis and 190gold
Hatty still doesn't like us enough to fight anyone

IBT Cavalry kills grenadier at Lyons

Turn 19 1514:
Kyoto (4xLB, Musket, Xbow) No Losses
Tenochtitlan (damaged LB, Xbow, Knight) No Losses
Lyons (2xLB, Mace, Cavalry, Trebuchet) - Kill all except Trebuchet - No Losses

Turn 20 1520:
Capture Lyons - No losses
Tokugawa still won't capitulate

The first cossacks should appear next turn. They should be galleon chained to the west to protect our stacks from Louis' cavalry. War Weariness is getting pretty bad hopefully Toku will surrender soon.

Pretty impressive set, RTB!

Can someone help me understand how to figure out how close we are to being able to get our diplomatic victory?

Does the population %age on the domination victory condition count our vassals too or just us? If we get MM and Hatty's votes, can we tell how much more pop we need for a vote? It seems like with a little more warring while we build the UN and wait for sec gen voting, it seems like we should be in good shape, no? I'm sure there is a more quantitative analysis than this, though.

Good work RTB. That's some tough slogging you've been doing.

We'll be done with MM next turn - that's great, we're almost there with the UN. I think we've got Mansa's vote locked up, and if ungy's numbers are correct, we can probably get Hatty's as well. We might want to go ahead and just gift Hatty with physics to see if we can't get the extra +1 for sharing techs as well. One thing we can be sure of is that we won't be getting any other votes but those two and our vassals.

As for building the UN, we should start chopping the UN by Beijing right away and the other two workers can start building some workshops around Beijing. If we time it right, we can run the culture slider at 20% after we get MM in, steal the last 2 tiles from Shanghai for 3 turns, and grow Beijing to 18 before we use the engineer (1290 h.) With the forest chop and 20+ hpt of production, we should be able to finish it quickly.

With Monte, I think our eastern army is pretty beaten up right now and taking him out is going to be a slow arduous affair. I'm thinking our best course may be to use the reinforcements to grab the 3 small cities to the SE (Xoch, Cali, and Atz) to convince him to sign a cease fire while the rest of the eastern army heals up. The eastern army can then either help with Louis if needed, or grab Polynesian + Isabella's lands. Once Louis is dealt with, we can use both forces to finish off Monte quickly. I think that (Louis+ Monte+ (maybe)Izzy) gives us enough votes, though I wouldn't stop conquering until we see our name in the hall of fame getting an Augustus Caesar. :lol:

BTW, I haven't heard anything from Danthor, so llib_rm you're up next and ungy is on deck.

Pretty impressive set, RTB!

Can someone help me understand how to figure out how close we are to being able to get our diplomatic victory?

Does the population %age on the domination victory condition count our vassals too or just us? If we get MM and Hatty's votes, can we tell how much more pop we need for a vote? It seems like with a little more warring while we build the UN and wait for sec gen voting, it seems like we should be in good shape, no? I'm sure there is a more quantitative analysis than this, though.

Yeah, here you go.

First, both the % on the Victory Conditions Screen and the pop. number you see when you mouse-over our score is our population+1/2 of our vassals population, so it's us (406) + 1/2 of Cy+Ghandi+JC+Vic(0.5 * 56) = 434. For UN purposes, we'll get their full votes, so we're sitting at 462 (40.3%)

Here are how the numbers break down. Right now, we need 711/1147 votes.

Us+Vassals: 462
Mansa+Hatty: 148 -> 610 total (53.2%)
Toku+Louis, remaining: 65 -> 675 total (58.9%)

So assuming we can capitulate Toku+Louis, that puts us 36 population away. If we grabbed Monte's 3 southern cities (12 pop) + polynesian (3) + Isabella (43) that would put us over, as would finishing Monte (64) or taking Kublai Khan (78.) Also, with our supply lines so long, once we've got the situation with Louis/Toku wrapped up, we can send some units that won't reach the front lines after Mao (32) to pad the numbers a bit while our main forces take the last victim.

Yeah, here you go.

First, both the % on the Victory Conditions Screen and the pop. number you see when you mouse-over our score is our population+1/2 of our vassals population, so it's us (406) + 1/2 of Cy+Ghandi+JC+Vic(0.5 * 56) = 434. For UN purposes, we'll get their full votes, so we're sitting at 462 (40.3%)

Here are how the numbers break down. Right now, we need 711/1147 votes.

Us+Vassals: 462
Mansa+Hatty: 148 -> 610 total (53.2%)
Toku+Louis, remaining: 65 -> 675 total (58.9%)

So assuming we can capitulate Toku+Louis, that puts us 36 population away. If we grabbed Monte's 3 southern cities (12 pop) + polynesian (3) + Isabella (43) that would put us over, as would finishing Monte (64) or taking Kublai Khan (78.) Also, with our supply lines so long, once we've got the situation with Louis/Toku wrapped up, we can send some units that won't reach the front lines after Mao (32) to pad the numbers a bit while our main forces take the last victim.

Grogs - thanks for the breakdown. Sounds like we are pretty close!

Great Job RTB.


BTW, I haven't heard anything from Danthor, so llib_rm you're up next and ungy is on deck.


OK, got it. I will post a plan Wednesday and play before the weekend.

Random notes on the game:

The battlle with Tokugawa went well. He had more troops than I expected but a lot of them either died attacking our stack fortified outside Nagasaki or in Nagasaki. Getting started against Monte was a lot harder, he used a combination of seige and knights pretty effectively. I have a few units in a galleon outside Xochicalco which I was planning to use to capture Xoch and prevent Monte from building any more Knights.

I agree with gifting Physics to Hatty and trying to bribe her into a war before we vassalize anyone else. I think Mansa is ours but Hatty we will have to watch.

I switched Rome and a few cities around Rome to wealth. I did this to see what we needed to do to get Mass Media next turn. They should be switched back to longbow production after next turn. A lot of cities picked up unhappiness and will need tile micromanagement when Toku capitulates.

A lot of units are in boats at Lyons since I thought Toku would capitulate after Kyoto fell. I don't know if you want to continue attacking Louis or take all of Toku's main island with them. There are a few cossacks being finished. They can be galleon chained in a couple of turns to protect against cavalry. Landing at Rhiems will sacrifice another grenadier to the cavalry.

There is a galleon with a longbow loaded in Banglore. The longbow should head to Lahore to free the grenadier garrison. The boat is shuttling troops from Rostov to Novgorad (a cossack is almost ready) and Rome to India.

OK, here is the plan:

Wartime priorities:
*) Get Toku to capitulate
*) Deny Monte the horses and rest for final assault.
*) Capture Paris and consolidate forces for Izzy

Research Mass Media->Biology->Communism(?)

Build UN in Bejing, chop & pop with Engineer

Build cossaks & cannons in production centers and theatres in high pop centers.

Gift resources to vassels

Try to draw Hatty into a war.

Micromanage pop growth.

Trade for Democracy(?)

Any thoughts on changing civics after the UN build?

Great work RTB--that was some tough fighting. We're getting close here.

I think we've got Mansa's vote locked up, and if ungy's numbers are correct, we can probably get Hatty's as well. We might want to go ahead and just gift Hatty with physics to see if we can't get the extra +1 for sharing techs as well.
I'm pretty sure about that for normal AI, it is possible that we need higher for the aggressive AI we have here. We should definately gift her physics anyway. I would think we will pick up another +1 religion by the time of the vote.

OK, here is the plan:

Wartime priorities:
*) Get Toku to capitulate
*) Deny Monte the horses and rest for final assault.
*) Capture Paris and consolidate forces for Izzy

Research Mass Media->Biology->Communism(?)

Build UN in Bejing, chop & pop with Engineer

Build cossaks & cannons in production centers and theatres in high pop centers.

Gift resources to vassels

Try to draw Hatty into a war.

Micromanage pop growth.

Trade for Democracy(?)

Any thoughts on changing civics after the UN build?

I'd stick with our civics, we need OR and FM for the vote and nothing else is worth anarchy. As for tech, I think the only useful one is bio, and I think it comes too late. I'd just take gold and upgrade the few remaining cats and mace.

I'd upgrade the warlords to cossacks.

I think we're a little short of healers--i might give a healer promo in Lyon.

I'd take Izumo next--it might be enough to cap Toku and has only one tough defender.

My guess is that Louis will be the holdup, especially if Toku doesn't cap after Izumo. Looks like RTB has set up a chain going west--I'd send our reinforcements there. We could build a road into Canturbury and go from there.

I'd use the workers to MM Beijing. Not sure if we can get another pop growth--WW is getting pretty bad. Probably better to give up on it and focus on production once we get MM. So I'd send the workers to build WS over the towns first then the farms and also mine the hills and switch to working the plains WS. We can run a food deficit for a while as we have 60f stored.

I agree with ungy on the research. Bio would be nice, but I think we gain more population by using the gold for upgrades and conquering more cities. I think that after Mass Media, we'll have all the techs we need (and then some) to win the game. I would only trade for other techs if it was something that could be traded around for $$.

BTW, we want to avoid getting Corporation at all costs. It will give us a net -1 trade routes per city.

After MM we also might want to run the culture slider up a notch or two. Probably only to keep cities from starving and losing pop. though.

Mass Media and chemistry are the only tech we have over Mansa. I suggest we don't trade MM. If we need to improve relations with him a bit to get his vote, we can use it to bribe him into another war in the late game (maybe bribe him to declare on Saladin, declare war ourselves, and never actually send a unit there.)

I do find the improving relations between Mansa/Hatty and HC troubling, but I don't see anything that can be done about it atm.

Hello,
I am not able to finish the turn until early next week. It looks like we are close. Here is the save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_AD1532_01.CivWarlordsSave

...and here are the gory details:

1) 1520AD: Start forest chop near Bejing

2) 1523AD: Capture Xochicalco no losses, Mass Media-> Biology, science @ 0%, Gift resources to vassels, start UN in Bejing

3) 1526AD: Capture Izumo, land near Tlaxcala

IBT Monte counter attacks near Tlaxcala (no deaths, but beat up)

4) 1529AD: Reinforce Tlaxcala, land near paris, march on Tokyo

5) 1532AD: Forest chop in, Pop Eng for UN, Capture Paris, Toku Capitulates

stop

I will not be able to play again until early next week. So I will pass my turn onto Ungy.

Go for it!

I can play Monday--I'll post some thoughts tomorrow.

I guess I'm the closer--just call me Mariano.

Good going llib--getting Toku really simplifies things.

I can play Monday--I'll post some thoughts tomorrow.

I guess I'm the closer--just call me Mariano.

Good going llib--getting Toku really simplifies things.

ungy - you may want to pull the medic III knight up to the front against Monte...

llib - Excellent. Capitulating Toku took our War Weariness from out-of-control down to managable.

ungy - I certainly hope you get to play the role of the closer. :) We need to hope for the best and plan for the worst though, so that means we keep cracking skulls until we see the victory screen.

On the western front, I'd move the forces in Paris against Orleans and the forces in Japan, and maybe some of those in Lyons, against Rheims. We need to take both cities or there will be starvation in Paris.

On the eastern front, keep slogging it out against Monte. I think we're close to breaking his back (probably after we take Tlaxcala and Teo) and after that we should be able to take the entire main continent pretty easily. He'll probably be very stubborn about capitulation like Toku though. :(

In theory, capitulating Louis and capturing the main continent from Monte should be enough to put us over the top on votes, assuming we get Mansa and Hatty's. In case we're not, we should keep on attacking. Once finished with Louis, the western army can send forces to help with Monte, if necessary, then wheel north and take on Kublai Khan (he should still have LB's for defenders.) Once our eastern army finishes Monte, they can move onto Isabella. We can use either chem or MM to bribe Mansa (and hopefully Hatty) into a war with KK to keep the mutual struggle bonus growing.

I think we can leave the small captured cities garrison-less. Izumo and Nagoya are good examples of cities I'm referring to. Probably Hamburg as well.

OK- I've had a look at things and here's a few thoughts.

UN can be whipped for 7 pop. I think that's worth it. We'll get a handle on exactly what we need much earlier that way. It'll still be a few turns before the vote.

Hat is at +9. We picked up another -1 vassal penalty. We may get another +1 religion by the time of the vote, but I think we shouldn't do anything other than vassalizing Monte and Louis that would risk a penalty. Of course, if I can get her into a war I will. Maybe gift her some more tech, I think there is another possible + there. I think attacking Izzie or KK are risks there.

Since I think we are getting close here, I think an aggressive attack philosophy is warranted using damaged units instead of letting them heal.

I think we can take Rheims and Orleans in 4 turns which surely should cap Louis. I'm inclined to use newly built reinforcements to go for Mao. We should be able to take Hangzou in around 5 turns. Go for Tlaxcala and Teo to try and cap Monte. I don't know what's in Teo but I think both should be ours in 4 turns or less as well.

I'll use gold for upgrades if possible--may not be. OB with Toku.

I would think if we can cap Monte and Louis and get Hatties vote we are there. I'm most worried about Hatties vote--I don't know if we'll pick up more - for 2 more vassals. We need them for the vote I think. Again I'm pretty sure about the +8 threshold for normal AI, don't know how aggressive affects it. Another possibilty would be to skip vassaling Monte and just take his cities and pick up some more votes from Mao. We should know a better vote count when we have the sec gen vote.

If I'm not sure what to do here I'll pause after the first vote, otherwise I'll just play through. I'm planning on playing Monday.

I think we can leave the small captured cities garrison-less. Izumo and Nagoya are good examples of cities I'm referring to. Probably Hamburg as well.
agreed. Our enemies are reeling, and as this is a full map it's unlikely they have a boatload of troops just floating around.

necessary, then wheel north and take on Kublai Khan (he should still have LB's for defenders.) Once our eastern army finishes Monte, they can move onto Isabella. We can use either chem or MM to bribe Mansa (and hopefully Hatty) into a war with KK to keep the mutual struggle bonus growing.

We're at +12 with MM, and might pick up more for religion so he's in the bank. My main concern here is Hattie's vote. Realistically anything else we do can only swing a turn or two as we're making good progress militarily. If we blow that we have a major task on our hands, however. I would go for Mao next as he is the only one she is annoyed with and don't want to risk a DOW my friend penalty. Time is on our side with her as the religion will build eventually from +3 to +6. Seems like if we finish Monte on the continent and get Hattie's vote and Hangzou from Mao we have a good margin of comfort on the vote. That is probably 7-8 turns I think. If we miss the vote I'd be more inclined to just keep giving her stuff and hope it improves but I'll definately stop if that happens.

I agree with your plan ungy but you might want to just eliminate Monte rather than capitulating him. I seriously doubt he will capitulate before we take the main continent and there aren't many people or units in his other two cities. Its probably worth a couple of extra turns of war to avoid a possible demerit with Hatty.

Whipping the U.N. sounds good. Beijing can grow back some of the population quickly and it will let us know if we have Hatty's vote.

I agree with your plan ungy but you might want to just eliminate Monte rather than capitulating him. I seriously doubt he will capitulate before we take the main continent and there aren't many people or units in his other two cities. Its probably worth a couple of extra turns of war to avoid a possible demerit with Hatty.

Do you think we should do the same with Louis?
I'm assuming we'll have most of him anyway. But since we're close on this vote it could cost us a cycle if we pass on the cap. I'm thinking the penalty relates to the size of the vassals and not a per. I seem to remember getting a -2 in WGOTM4 taking a single quite large vassal but I don't have that comp anymore. If that is the case, and we just ticked -2 with these really small vassals we're probably OK taking what's left of Louis after the next two cities.

I agree on Monte--I think if we have that much of him we are there anyway so why risk the vote.

We're at +12 with MM, and might pick up more for religion so he's in the bank. My main concern here is Hattie's vote. Realistically anything else we do can only swing a turn or two as we're making good progress militarily. If we blow that we have a major task on our hands, however. I would go for Mao next as he is the only one she is annoyed with and don't want to risk a DOW my friend penalty.

Both Mansa and Hatshepshut are annoyed with KK, which is one reason I suggested him. I don't think there's any chance of getting the declared on our friend penalty at annoyed. I would doubt with cautious even, but I can't say for certain. His two main cities are a 1-turn boat ride from Paris, where our army is now, and his power is the same as Monte's is *after* we've sepnt 10 turns beating up on him. Most importantly, KK has the same population as Hatty and more than Mansa, so just in case we don't get the vote from Hatty, starting on Kublai is a good back-up plan. Hopefully we'll win the game before we have to do any warring against him, but it seems like the most prudent course to take - hope for the best, plan for the worst.

I'm ok with not capitulating Monte. I'd probably try and grab those two cities to the south as well though. That will take 9 votes out of his hands and give us 7 - a 16-vote swing which I think we need. I suspect they're both quite lightly defended and we can grab the barb city afterwards.

As for Louis, who knows, play it by ear I guess. If we don't capitulate Monte, I think we'll be riding pretty close on the votes, and a 12-vote swing for Marseilles and Tours may make a difference. If it looks like we can pick it up quickly elsewhere, I'd just make peace and move on.

I'm not wild about pop-rushing the UN. If you pull citizens off of the zero-hammer tiles and make 9 citizen-specialists, you can finish in 3 turns without losing a single pop in Beijing. Rushing it costs us 7 citizens and only saves 2 turns. If we were 100% certain we'd have the population to win the vote in 6 turns I'd say rush that sucker, but since it's quite possible we'll need every single population point we can lay our hands on, I don't think we should.

Both Mansa and Hatshepshut are annoyed with KK, which is one reason I suggested him.

You are correct--I was looking at it backwards. That is important. I'm sure we're OK at annoyed so KK makes for a good next target.

I still think I should plan to take both French cities before going for KK.

I'm not wild about pop-rushing the UN. If you pull citizens off of the zero-hammer tiles and make 9 citizen-specialists, you can finish in 3 turns without losing a single pop in Beijing. Rushing it costs us 7 citizens and only saves 2 turns. If we were 100% certain we'd have the population to win the vote in 6 turns I'd say rush that sucker, but since it's quite possible we'll need every single population point we can lay our hands on, I don't think we should.
I have to disagree with you here. While I'm not sure we have the votes, and I agree with you that it will be close, I'm for the rush. First off we'll grow back 2 pop so it's down 5. Down 5 to us is the same as capturing a 2 city. It looks to me like in the next 5 turns we'll take 2 Aztec, 2 French and I'm planning on opened up China and take Hangzhou. That's a city every turn of around 10 pop per. Go out another 5 and we surely get at least 2 more Aztec, a China, and one or 2 Mongol. So we're really pretty close and I'd rather get the UN up. We're also growing pretty fast so I'm guessing we'll be better net pop than your earlier calcultion even with the whip.

I guess it just seems like we're in a bit of a gray area on the vote, but we're capturing around say 6-8/turn going out 6 turns and the whip essentially costs us 1 per turn so the risk reward is in our favor pretty dramatically.

I think we will be really close on the vote in around 5 turns. Grogs had us needing to capture 36 pop+Toku+Louis. We've got 5 from Monte, I think we get Tlaxcala and Teo for 23, and I think I can get Louis and Hangzhou. It's possible I get a Mongol city as I think the troops outside Paris can walk to Orleans losing 1 turn and the galleons can take the Japanese army to attack Turfan and likely get it turn 5. So if all goes well that is around 45 pop in 5 turns.

Anyone know exactly when we'll have the vote if we build the UN this turn?

We might be able to MM things a bit--also I think the vote count is at the beginning of the turn (but also not positive).

Anyone know exactly when we'll have the vote if we build the UN this turn?

We might be able to MM things a bit--also I think the vote count is at the beginning of the turn (but also not positive).

It works on a 4 turn cycle. If you pop-rush the UN this turn, the next turn counts as turn 1. On turn 4, the SG vote comes up and the winner is declared on turn 5. On turn 8, you get to propose a resolution, then again on turn 12, etc. Assuming we win the vote on turn 8, our victory gets recorded on turn 9. So 1559 would be our victory date if we get the vote on the first go-round.

As for the voting, it *seems* to be the population at the beginning of the turn after you vote. I've noticed that the number of votes the voting screen says I get often doesn't match what I actually get and I think that's the reason. I can't swear by it though.

Both Mansa and Hatshepshut are annoyed with KK, which is one reason I suggested him.



Last I checked, KK & HC had an alliance.

I'm ok with not capitulating Monte. I'd probably try and grab those two cities to the south as well though. That will take 9 votes out of his hands and give us 7 - a 16-vote swing which I think we need. I suspect they're both quite lightly defended and we can grab the barb city afterwards.


There were six denders 3 muskets and 3 longbows in the southern city. I went north because it was not defended as stronglyl and it was closer to the capital.

UN can be whipped for 7 pop. I think that's worth it. We'll get a handle on exactly what we need much earlier that way. It'll still be a few turns before the vote.



I agree that we need it soon, but the numbers did look correct.

The UN cost 1500
We had 50 invested
So we needed 1450

The Eng was to give 1235
The forest chop gave 36
There are 20/turn normally

This leaves 160 needed, at 7 pop, that comes out to 23 hammers/pop

It works on a 4 turn cycle. If you pop-rush the UN this turn, the next turn counts as turn 1. On turn 4, the SG vote comes up and the winner is declared on turn 5.
I ran a test where I built it turn 0, but the sec gen election was turn 3 and then the 4 turn cycle. So if we rush it here at turn 0 we vote either turn 7 by my test or turn 8. So that means that we have until turn 6 to get the votes. I think we can do that if we get Hat's vote. So I'll rush the UN.

I'm also going to cancel all the GPT deals with AI that won't vote for us and give some more resources to our friends and vassals. Give our enemies a little health and happy slowdown.

Last I checked, KK & HC had an alliance.

I missed this--thanks for pointing it out as it is pretty important. Such a crowded FA screen. I believe that it counts as us DOW'ing both. Both Hat and MM are cautious to KK but no OB. I ran a few tests on old games and didn't get a DOW hit in that situation but I can't be sure.

I would think I could get the votes we need in 6 turns w/o attacking KK.

I'll work on the assumption that I will DOW Mao and not KK and plan to have the votes in 6 turns. If I can get Texcoco I think with Hangzhou that should do it. If the next few turns go badly vs. the Aztecs I'll pause to discuss going for KK/HC.

llib do you have an idea of Monte's strength in Teo?

I missed this--thanks for pointing it out as it is pretty important. Such a crowded FA screen. I believe that it counts as us DOW'ing both. Both Hat and MM are cautious to KK but no OB. I ran a few tests on old games and didn't get a DOW hit in that situation but I can't be sure.

There are a lot of ?'s here unfortunately. It looks like Louis actually got the DOW penalty with MM and Hatty when he declared on us (as part of the defensive pact.) That may actually be profitable if HC takes a DOW penalty from Mansa and Hatty.

On the other hand, Mansa has a DOW penalty from Hatty that's completely puzzling to me. Louis is the only person Mansa has declared on and Hatty is annoyed (-6) with him. Looking back at the 1460 save, it looks like somehow those two hadn't met :eek: in 1460 AD. I'm thinking that the computer gave a default relation score of 0 on the turn Hatty met Louis and the DOW penalties were based on that.

I think it is better to avoid bringing HC into the mix. We could end up getting a nasty surprise and I think we can bring it home without that.

That may actually be profitable if HC takes a DOW penalty from Mansa and Hatty.

I think we're comfortably ahead of HC relations wise so I think our only risk is Hat not liking us enough.

I did another quick vote count. By my math we've got 505 with our votes and our vassals. Mansa+Hatty would bring us to 654. That leaves us 63 short. Make it 66* if we pop-rush the UN. We can get 17 for Orleans+Rheims and 21 for Teo+Tlax and 8 from Hangzhou. That still leaves us 21 away. In order to get there, we can take all 4 cities on Monte's continent and capitulate Louis for 24.

Just in general, you probably need to check out the micromanagement of the cities when you start the set. There are some strange tiles being worked, specs that shouldn't be there (London is a prime example) etc. Also, Kyoto will begin starving the turn it comes out of anarchy, so we need to expand it's borders ASAP. Since we've got the Sistine Chapel now, we can force 8 specs there and it will pop it's borders the turn it comes out of anarchy.

* - Even though it actually costs us 7 pop to pop-rush the UN, it also drops the world population by 7 as well, which would drop the victory threshold from 717 to 713, so it only counts as a loss of 3.

I did another quick vote count. By my math we've got 505 with our votes and our vassals. Mansa+Hatty would bring us to 654. That leaves us 63 short. Make it 66* if we pop-rush the UN. We can get 17 for Orleans+Rheims and 21 for Teo+Tlax and 8 from Hangzhou. That still leaves us 21 away. In order to get there, we can take all 4 cities on Monte's continent and capitulate Louis for 24.
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Hmm this puts us a bit farther away than the last count. Just a double check: We have 39.62% of pop... that is us + 1/2 of vassals.
Us: 424
Vassals: In-28
Per 16
Rome 12
Eng 4
Japan 23
=83 gives 507 --pretty close to Grogs.

using my #that would make for 1175 total pop. We need 62% or 729 votes.

Us + vassals= 507.
MM=66
Hat=83
gets us to 656 or 73 short

this is quite a bit worse tha I thought and 10 worse than Grogs has (which is also worse than I thought).

Just a check on our opposition (by our last maps):

HC 129 by VC or 130 by map so that is close.
Sal 49
Wash 69
louis 26
KK 74 +?
Monte 50
Mao 35
Izzie 43
=475 +iceball
should add to 517

either I'm missing something or our maps are way out of date.

I guess I feel like my decisions are as follows:
to rush or not to rush the UN. If we need the 4 Aztec cities as well as Louis and Hangzou then I think it is very tight but likely just doable turn 6. We could rush next turn to give a turn margin of safety or not rush at all and have two turns of safety.

NOT to attack KK--just don't think it's worth it at this point to get a war with HC that we're not prepared for.

Attack Mao and try and get Chengdu as well.
Use the Japanese force to take Rheims, march the Paris force to Orleans, send the Lyon force with a ship chain to take Tlatelco in around 5-6 turns.
It is possible that this can be done in 6

I'm conflicted on the UN rush, I think I'm likely to get there turn 6 but if I miss I don't want to lose 4 turns. I guess I'm leaning now towards waiting a turn to give a margin of safety on the military ops.

I'm still planning on playing later today--so chime in quick.

ungy - I think you have a good plan. I'd wait a turn or maybe even 2 before rushing the UN. It looks like we need to vassalize Louis and Monte to have a chance in the first election. I'd delay accepting capitulation to see if you can get Hatty to join or even declare war on Isabella to give Hatty another possible target.

Its too bad about Kublai but I agree that we shouldn't declare war. He has some choice targets but we really wouldn't benefit from a war with H.C. Either he takes our poorly defended cities or we land units we can't afford and he m whips himself out of the #1 population position.

Good luck.

OK here goes.

1532 is mostly played. MM to get more pop growth. Cancel gpt trades with enemies. Give more resources to friends. I'll rush UN next turn.

1535rush UN for 5 pop take Tlaxcala lose cannon sink 3 gal, 3 car.
IBT we build UN.

1538 moving forces up.

1541 vote for UN Hmm this is a turn earlier than I thought. We vote 435 out of 1162. Take Teo 6 def no losses. Hat built Broadway sometime--we trade for hit musicals.

Sec gen vote we get 686 out of 1160.

Sal for HC 48
Louis for HC 22
HC for HC 136
KK for HC 89
monte for HC 29
Mao for HC 34
SS for SS 449--I guess we did get to vote the captured city.
Cyrus 14 for us
MM 74 for us
Hat 84 for us
JC 10 for us
Vic 4 for us
tok 23 for us
Gandhi 28 for us
Iz 46 abstain
Wash 70 abstain.

This is good. While I don't think we necessarily have Hat's vote for the big one it's good to get the extra turn here.

We also pop an eng in Athens I'll use it to build Rock'n Roll.

1544 Now it's time for Mao to feel our wrath.

1547 Hangzhou is ours but only size 6 after Mao's whip. We take Rheims and get a GG. Take Tlatelolco. Louis will now cap. Taking a short break to do a vote count and see if we can get by w/o Louis cap as we haven't improved relations any with Hat. We can likely take Orlean this turn but surely next if we miss this turn (but down to 6). Monte has 9 units in Tex but I think I can get it next turn. Pop eng for R&R.

So the next vote--I think our growth probably cancels out the smaller cities we got in capture.

So with 1160 we need 720 votes. We got 686. So we need a pickup of 34 and we have Hangzhou, Orleans, Rheims, Tlatelolco and Tex. That should do it so I'm not going to cap Louis.

1547 take Orleans. Need to go out for a bit --I'll check these #'s but plan to make peace with Louis w/o capping him.

Hey ungy, why do you want peace with Louis? I can't imagine he contributes that much to our war weariness. Why not stay at war, bump up the culture slider a bit, and keep open the options of cap or attacking Marseilles.

Maybe hit singles will give up an additional +1 with Hatty, we can always hope. This looks great ungy; you should be bringing it home soon.

Good work so far ungy.

I'm with RTB on Louis. We're getting 'mutual struggle' bonuses with Mansa and as long as WW is manageable, we should stay at war. We're probably getting as much WW from Monte as Louis, so I doubt making peace will help much. Is Hatty still unwilling to declare on anyone (Mao or Louis or Monte?)

BTW, I think Rock & Roll was a good use for the engineer. A scientist would have been completely useless.

I forgot to mention it (and it's probably too late to be meaningful now) but Toku will trade us wheat, which would help with unhealthy cities we have (Hastings.)

Good work so far ungy.

I'm with RTB on Louis. We're getting 'mutual struggle' bonuses with Mansa and as long as WW is manageable, we should stay at war. We're probably getting as much WW from Monte as Louis, so I doubt making peace will help much. Is Hatty still unwilling to declare on anyone (Mao or Louis or Monte?)

BTW, I think Rock & Roll was a good use for the engineer. A scientist would have been completely useless.

I forgot to mention it (and it's probably too late to be meaningful now) but Toku will trade us wheat, which would help with unhealthy cities we have (Hastings.)
I'll stay at war. Was just worried about him vassaling to someone else and the WW but I guess ideal is he caps to MM.

I did take the wheat, and Hattie will not DOW anyone and our relations have not improved from the +9--I did give her elec and some resources but that didn't help anything.

I'll stay at war. Was just worried about him vassaling to someone else and the WW but I guess ideal is he caps to MM.

I did take the wheat, and Hattie will not DOW anyone and our relations have not improved from the +9--I did give her elec and some resources but that didn't help anything.

Not much more you can do then. 'You gave us techs' and 'you gave us resources' bonuses take a long time to show up. Religion and civics will also continue to increase, but they just take time. I have the feeling that we're very close to going from pleased to friendly (or vice versa - can't remember which is which) with her. When that happens, she'll probably be willing to declare on someone and we'll get the mutual struggle bonus almost immediately.

In any case, good luck. I'm sure you can figure it out. ;)

OK finish 1547. Trade MM to MM for rifling.
IBT we build R&R, Hat emancipation.

1550. Decide to wait on Tex and heal a turn. 10 defs on a hill. Letting armies in France heal up.

Diplo vote 482 out of 1173. Need 727 for victory.

1553. Capture texcoco. Capture Chengdu with a single cossack (85%).

And the vote is........

WE DON"T GET IT!

Louis 6 for HC
HC 142 HC
KK 89HC
SS 495
Cyrus 14 us
MM 74 us
JC 11 us
Vic 4 us
Tok 24 us
Gandhi 32 us
Hat abstains 87
Iz abstains 48
Sal abstains 49
Wash abstains 74
Monte abstains 14
Mao abstains 16

we had 654
So I think we should discuss our strategy from here.

We had enough votes if we could have gotten Hat's. She's still at +9 so we didn't get a religious uptick.

Save is here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_AD1556_01.CivWarlordsSave

So close,
We need another +1 with Hatty.

All I can think is a defensive pact. We can afford the -1 with Mansa but Mao isn't going to talk. Focus every available unit to eliminate Mao quickly. (There is an iceball city east of Chengdu.) We can then sign a cease fire with Monte and Louis and hope for a defensive pact.

I don't see any way to win quickly without Hatty's votes. I guess we can go after Kublai and Isabella but that will get very messy. It probably makes sense to cease fire with Monte since the combination of war weariness and emancipation unhappiness is making some cities starve.

If I'm not mistaken another way to increase the religion bonus is to spread the faith a little more. Since we are OR we can build missionaries and start spreading Confucianism to our cities to increase our population %age that are Hatty's religion.

Maybe this will take a little longer but we can probably do this faster or in parallel with our conquering.

I'm sure we've tried this, but have we gifted hatty gold?

IBT we build R&R, Hat emancipation.


Emancipation, how long until our unhappines forces us to switch civics?

Emancipation, how long until our unhappines forces us to switch civics?
The emancipation penalty is 1 per civ that adopts it. So far that's only -1. Really the WW is much worse, our big cities seem to be around -8 to -10.

If I'm not mistaken another way to increase the religion bonus is to spread the faith a little more. Since we are OR we can build missionaries and start spreading Confucianism to our cities to increase our population %age that are Hatty's religion.

Maybe this will take a little longer but we can probably do this faster or in parallel with our conquering.

I'm sure we've tried this, but have we gifted hatty gold?

I did not know this about the religion spread. We could certainly get a few out there pretty quick.

Actually I haven't gifted any gold--I didn't think that did anything unless they asked but I can try.

Emancipation, how long until our unhappines forces us to switch civics?

Hopefully not for the rest of the game. :lol:

I think the emancipation is still small enough that if we can shed the WW it's no big deal. Worst case, we can always vote for it with the UN and get a 0-anarchy switch.

OK, I did a little reading on the Diplomatic Victory thread in the Strategy forum and it looks like +10 is (I really, really hope) the magic number since there's a hidden -2 with aggressive AI's. In light of us being that close, here's how I think we should proceed:

- Gift Hatty radio this turn, then Chem next turn. In my reading some people have suggested that the rarer a tech is, the more likely we are to get the bonus.

- Wait one turn, then make peace with Monte and Louis. We should try and get their cities at the peace table. I don't know if they will, but it would be a good compromise between capitulating and just making peace. I might cap Louis since his total military is now on par with Vic (who has 2 swords and a pike) but I can't gurantee it's 100% safe, so probably better not to risk it. Actually, if you don't think there's any possibility you would take a cap from either, you can make peace immediately.

At the same time, I'd start staging military for the next invasion. Just in case something disasterous happens (Hat switches to Free Religion) we need to be ready to go.

I see several possibilities, all have problems. We were 73 votes short.

1) the peaceful approach. Make peace with Mao and try and get a DP with Hat. Don't vassalize Monte or Louis. Maybe get lucky with a religion boost.

Downside: we don't know for sure that we only need +1 to get the vote. I'm guessing aggressive AI means we need +2 for everything but not sure. No guarantee we get the DP when we get peace anyway. We DOW'd Mao in 1544 and we really weren't prepared for a wipeout campaign. I think we can likely get peace 2 cycles from now but not next cycle (and also get Guang and Xian).

Hat is now cautious with KK (also Iz) and now has OB with both. So we may jeopardize our relations with Hat if we attack either one. I'm unsure on this, it seems like sometimes we get the DOW on my friend penalty at cautious but not always.

2) a more aggressive approach. This would be trying to get the votes by conquest. Cap monte. Keep the war with Louis to get the bonus with MM since we may take our relations down a notch.

We have three strike forces, all very powerful. Maybe could be split into 4 or 5 against Izzie. I'm sure we could take her very quickly. Finish off Mao.

Then move against KK/HC. If we are close we can handle a short war with little chance of an invasion. We can keep our frigates to watch HC's ports and I think can handle him for a short while. It won't take long to get the city or two we'll need from KK.

I'm not sure but I think there's a decent chance we could take 73 votes in 8 turns which is 2 cycles of votes and pretty sure we can do it in 12. I don't see how we can get peace with Mao any sooner than the 8 turn mark. We moved pretty quickly and our

I think the main risk here is a diplo one, I wish I had a better handle on the DOW my friend penalty. If we knew for sure whether we would take the hit DOW'ing Izzie that would make our decision easier.

I won't play until we get a bit of a consensus on a plan--I know everyone wants to get this finished but we might be pretty close with some others here and also we can learn a bit here about how diplo works.

I did not know this about the religion spread. We could certainly get a few out there pretty quick.

Actually I haven't gifted any gold--I didn't think that did anything unless they asked but I can try.

For the record I don't know the thing about religion spread - it's just something I seemed to notice in my games. I will try to find some references on the forums.

At the same time, I'd start staging military for the next invasion. Just in case something disasterous happens (Hat switches to Free Religion) we need to be ready to go.
Do you like the Iz plan?

I'm thinking it's a little risky to go for MM/HC since HC has frig/rif/cav except when we're pretty sure it's just a couple of turns.

Another alternative is to go for Washington which will take a sure -1 for both Hat and MM and cap him. That will get us enough w/o hat. Settle with Monte but keep louis going for the relations with MM. Looking at our cities, that should get us where we need to be happy wise.

We could build a few missionaries as MS suggests and we'd have maybe 4 turns getting over there to get the other +1 from Hat before we pull the trigger. Then we surely get him in 8 turns but it's hard to see how it happens in only 4.

It appears I am wrong about the religion. Here is a quote I found from the war academy diplomacy article:

We care for brothers and sisters in the faith! with ordinary civilizations, this bonus goes to a +4 max, with some others (often spiritual, like isabella/saladin) this goes to +7 (i have seen this between AIs). the longer a target civ and yourself have been of the same religion (after you have met) the higher the bonus, at the start it is +1. when either one changes religion the bonus is lost and must be rebuild up from the point where you both convert the same religion again (although the bonus appears to rebuild fast). I must warn you that a civilization that founds a new superstition will often change to this new faith, if it doesn't have all of its other cities under its state religion.

For the record I don't know the thing about religion spread - it's just something I seemed to notice in my games. I will try to find some references on the forums.
I just thought it was that each leader had a different religion modifier

I know it takes a while to get all the way there--we haven't moved up on my set (8 turns so far) so if that is not a factor there's a good chance we'll get a bump soon.

It appears I am wrong about the religion. Here is a quote I found from the war academy diplomacy article:
I think there is good chance we'll get a bump soon and I hate to set us back by doing anything that could give us a -.

That gets me leaning in favor of just going for Mao, trying to get peace there which should happen before the vote in 8 turns. Then try and get a DP with Hat. Maybe play for a wipeout on Monte as if this doesn't work we'll DOW Iz after the 8 turn vote and can use all the pop we can get. I think we can settle Louis as we are +15 with MM--even if we lose the whole +3 mutual struggle and take a -1 hit we should still be OK.

I think there is good chance we'll get a bump soon and I hate to set us back by doing anything that could give us a -.

That gets me leaning in favor of just going for Mao, trying to get peace there which should happen before the vote in 8 turns. Then try and get a DP with Hat. Maybe play for a wipeout on Monte as if this doesn't work we'll DOW Iz after the 8 turn vote and can use all the pop we can get. I think we can settle Louis as we are +15 with MM--even if we lose the whole +3 mutual struggle and take a -1 hit we should still be OK.

Sounds like a plan to me. If we can't get the DP we can always go for Washington...

[edit] PS also on the war academy I see that gifting gold to Hatty would just help the "our trade relations are fair and forthright" bonus which I think we already have maxed. Guess this won't help.

There's a lot of good info on AI attitudes here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=204328) Check out the spreadsheets he has linked as well. Too much info really, but it's all in there... if you can decipher it.

One interesting tidbit I found is the min. number of turns before an AI will talk. It's 8 for Mao, 10 for Isabella, and 8 for KK.

Also, the link lists the break-points for various AI attitudes. +3 or higher (after applying invisible mods) corresponds to friendly. Looking through the old saves, Hat was friendly with us at +5 (it was +6 with some other civs.) That should mean the +10 gets her vote.

One interesting tidbit I found is the min. number of turns before an AI will talk. It's 8 for Mao, 10 for Isabella, and 8 for KK.


Very interesting. I don't think that puts us before the next vote unfortunately--but maybe as I think it will be turn 8.

I think my preference is the following here:

1. Make peace ASAP with Mao. Whip/upgrade units--get all available units after him. Might be just as quick to wipe him out and the iceball city is noted.

2. Settle with Louis to help WW. Get city if possible.

3. Use main army to wipe out Monte and prepare for invasion of Iz. Peace with Monte if we get peace with Mao.

4. MM our cities. I've noticed some specs cropping up etc.

I think our chances are pretty good to get the +1 with Hat but seems like it will be a pretty ineffective next few turns militarily.

I'll plan on playing tonight--so comments please

I think you have a very good plan. I don't know if you can take Mao in 4 turns (even with some aggressive whipping) but its worth a shot. Gifting Radio, Mass Media, and Steel to Hatty may help but we are probably just waiting for that additional +1 from religion.

I think you have a very good plan. I don't know if you can take Mao in 4 turns (even with some aggressive whipping) but its worth a shot. Gifting Radio, Mass Media, and Steel to Hatty may help but we are probably just waiting for that additional +1 from religion.

will try on Mao and gift what I can to Hat.

I consulted my crystal ball and the answer is .......unclear, of course.

I think we will need Haddy, hopefully we catch her in a good mood (beginning of the month :rolleyes: )

ungy, your plan looks pretty close to mine, so I think it's fine. If you get a chance to make peace with Mao a turn before the next vote, I'd do so -- just a cease fire so you can redeclare the next turn if you want, not a peace treaty. That way if Hatty is still unwilling, you can go right back at it the next turn.

I think I'd give it 2 more cycles -- a +1 should show up by then (I hope!) In the meantime I'd tidy up the loose ends with Louis/Monte and stage forces for an invasion on Iz & KK. We'll pull that trigger if we have to, but hopefully we won't need to.

If we have to fight some more, I'd favor landing on both KK and Iz at the same time. HC may annoy, but in general the AI's have shown themselves to be quite pathetic on offense this game. As many wars as we've fought, have we even had a ship try to land on our continent since Alex did it in the BC's? We've got hard counters for cavalry and rifles, and we have lots of production in our core, so I would think we could build a small force to deal with anything HC tried to land. A frigate or 2 between our island and his can probably even prevent that. And if we could bribe Mansa (with gold, or just ask nicely) to join us in the war with HC, he'd probably be too distracted to come after us anyway.

In general though, if we have to fight some more, we want to get the pop we need in a blitzkreig-like fashion. If we attack just Iz, we'd have to take every city she owned, while attacking both KK and Iz at the same time means we can take a few large cities from each and pass over the population limit even without Hatty's vote.

OK here we go again:
1556 make peace with Louis for Marseilles (2). Gift Hat Radio no help.
whip a few units and upgrade a few units for Mao, send forces to finish off Monte.

1559 moving up forces. We pop a +1 with Hat!

1562 more assembling forces.

1565 we vote 504 for us for diplo need 744. Take Tlacopan. Take Tianjin (ice city). 7 units on hill in Guangzhou...ugh. But we don't even lose a unit--1st suicide cannon retreats and second wins! We take Xian and Mao is gone.

Peace with Monte for Atza. Oops, we do not have communism and have traded all our tech to MM. I ask as a favor and he says no. So no DP--we have to hope we're there on the relations. We have to hope we are there with Hat.

And the vote is.........Short Straw wins Diplo victory!!

785 needed 746

Louis 4
HC 147
KK 92
SS 524
Cyr 15
MM 78
Hat 91
JC 12
VIc 5
Tok 26
Gandhi 34
Iz 48
Sal 48
Wash 75
Monte 5

1568 that's all folks.

final save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_AD1568_01.CivWarlordsSave

Looking at the competition it looks like we tied team one and peanut should beat us.

Outstanding!!

:band: :banana: :banana: :bounce: :cheers:

Looking at the competition it looks like we tied team one and peanut should beat us.

And of course CFR-W beat us by a couple of centuries. :lol: :eek:

Those guys just amaze me sometimes.

Anyway, nicely done ungy. I think it was a pretty respectable performance on our part regardless of the eventual outcome.

I was reading Peanuts thread and they should beat us, but it's still up in the air. Trying to win new votes without pissing off your current votes can be very tricky.

Yay, ungy! Thanks for bringing it home.

I figured we would be out of the running for sure after Alex declared on us early on. Kind of appropriate that we tied team one since we are the same team now in SGOTM4! I hope you guys who aren't playing will consider lurking over there unless you have read some threads already.

Well done, Short Straw :goodjob:

Great job ungy. Great job bringing home the game.

A tie is incredible! I can't believe the race for 2nd,3rd, and 4th is so close.

Congrats guys! Can't believe it either, we tie for bronze and decide to simply merge the teams. Very strong game, good conquests. You were a bit behind on the diplomacy front, too bad you didn't find out about Ori's spreadsheet earlier in the game.

Congrats guys! Can't believe it either, we tie for bronze and decide to simply merge the teams. Very strong game, good conquests. You were a bit behind on the diplomacy front, too bad you didn't find out about Ori's spreadsheet earlier in the game.
thx. Yeah something bizarrely appropriate about merging the teams and then the tie.

I hope you guys who aren't playing will consider lurking over there unless you have read some threads already.
Well I'll take that as an invite but I really am going to try and take a civ break. Not sure how long that lasts tho.

I thought we played a pretty good game. I thought we were out of the running for medals when Alex attacked us--that really set us back a lot. Mao building the pyramids and lighthouse was just an incredible stroke of luck that got us back in the running I think.

I think a better strategy would have involved more diplomatic planning. Deciding early who the allies were going to be based on leader personalities and religion also taking into account the civics. Then spam missionaries to convert our targets to the faith.

Also might have made sense to try for the pyramids--that might have worked poorly with Alex's attack but others seem to have built it and was huge with the phil.

Be careful trading to avoid the "traded with my worst enemy" penalties--that might have meant avoiding all those early OB that got us so many contacts and waiting for caravels to get them.

This was a fun game, and as usual I learned a lot. It was fun playing with you all (well actually all but one but you guys know that).

Mushroom, RTB, llib--good luck with your new teammates! GO team One Short Straw!

Grogs and LMTOOPS take care and hope our paths cross again.

Nice going guys!!! This was a tough interesting game. Way to bring it on home Ungy. :goodjob:

I thought we played a pretty good game. I thought we were out of the running for medals when Alex attacked us--that really set us back a lot. Mao building the pyramids and lighthouse was just an incredible stroke of luck that got us back in the running I think.

We had some good luck and some bad luck, no doubt about it, but that happens in nearly every game. The best players out there, the ones whose names show up on the medals of GOTM game after GOTM game, are able to roll with the punches and win no matter what lady luck throws their way. We've got several players that are close to that level and I think we did a pretty good job of taking advantage of the good luck aspects (Beijing) and minimizing the damage from the bad luck (Alex) and ending up with a pretty decent victory time.

Congrats guys! Can't believe it either, we tie for bronze and decide to simply merge the teams. Very strong game, good conquests. You were a bit behind on the diplomacy front, too bad you didn't find out about Ori's spreadsheet earlier in the game.

Thanks, Team One. Not sure finding the SS earlier would have made much of a difference since most of us were operating under the assumption that skull-thumping the world and stealing their votes would be faster than playing nice. We really only came to the conclusion that we might get some other people's votes pretty late in the game, so if we had known about the SS earlier, it probably would have just meant a few more turns of biting our nails at the end. :lol: You guys (and especially the CFR's) showed that a 'true' Diplo victory was not only possible, but judging by the 2 CFR teams' results, faster. That's the great thing about (S)GOTM's, you get to compare games and see which strategies work better.

The tie thing is definitely pretty cool considering that our two teams have merged, at least for SGOTM4. I'm still trying to figure out how you miscounted the turns when you said our next vote wasn't until 1568 though. You were right that you guys were guaranteed the bronze laurels, just not