Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

I'm here.

Here's the link to the practice game I PM'd everyone. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/SGOTM3_practice_2_same_settings_and_same_start_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave)

There is definitely the problem on this map that I didn't catch the jungle up to the north (per the general starting location discussion thread). Maybe some other problems, too.

OK, I'm checking in. I installed Warlords, the 2.08 patch, and the HOF Mod this morning, so I'm ready to go tech-wise. Experience-wise, it's zilch for Warlords, but hopefully I can find time to squeeze at least a couple of practice games in before my first turnset comes up. I'll probably want to go near the end of the roster for that reason. If anyone else has any preferences as far as the roster is concerned, i.e., known absences, want to go early or late, or whatever, just let me know and I'll put the roster together.

Been playing a little bit with the practice game. Mostly concentrating on the early game. I guess we will have to decide on a victory condition up front - but in any case I thought I would share my early thoughts.


I was thinking that we will need tech no matter what we do, so I thought I would go fishing->pottery->BW. For builds warrior (really doesn't matter because I lost his shields anyway)->workboat->worker->workboat.

At the time this screenshot was taken I had just finished BW (probably shouldn't have revolted to slavery until I needed to pop rush, but oh well)

I like this since I think it maximizes early commerce.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Practice_SGOTM_screenshot.JPG

Welcome back all!

Thanks for the practice game MS--will play it in the next couple of days.

The game looks interesting--I have not been playing civ much lately and have only one game with the new patch under my belt--a practice for WOTM3 although I plan to play that as well. While I thought the AI improved, at monarch it didn't have nearly enough units and warmongering was not too difficult.

I have very little experience with such a crowded map so I'd like to practice a bit first.

One thing we should decide as a group is if we want to make a more concerted effort to win a laurel. I think that would mean making more effort to plan as a group and the active player would really just execute the plan. That is how CFR plays. That would be my preference, but it's OK if we want a more casual game. I think we should make sure we're on the same wavelength though.

A few general thoughts on the victory conditions:

I don't see how a space race can beat a diplo or even come close. So I think we should plan diplo from the start. Also with 17 AI I think getting a vote without warmongering is unlikely especially with aggressive AI which lowers their relations with us. So I think the game is basically a self vote diplo with maybe a few allies and likely some vassals. No city razing and the need to tech to UN makes it more important than the last two SGOTM to build a strong economy as we will have to keep researching while warmongering and keeping all cities at the same time.

I would expect the AI to be pretty backward but also quick on the wonders as there might not be much expansion room for a few of them (and we have several industious). I think we should track wonders in our practice games in case we want to build one.

A few general thoughts on the victory conditions:

I don't see how a space race can beat a diplo or even come close. So I think we should plan diplo from the start. Also with 17 AI I think getting a vote without warmongering is unlikely especially with aggressive AI which lowers their relations with us. So I think the game is basically a self vote diplo with maybe a few allies and likely some vassals. No city razing and the need to tech to UN makes it more important than the last two SGOTM to build a strong economy as we will have to keep researching while warmongering and keeping all cities at the same time.

I would expect the AI to be pretty backward but also quick on the wonders as there might not be much expansion room for a few of them (and we have several industious). I think we should track wonders in our practice games in case we want to build one.

This is right in line with what RTB PM'd me after the practice game. I am comfortable with this strategy, too. I think warmongering to get a self-vote diplo with a few allies is the highest-percentage play for this SGOTM.

A couple of random questions that come to mind:
1) Will a more aggressive team be able to get a faster diplomatic victory more conventionally? (by courting allies). How hard is this with aggressive AI?
2) How should we best use great people. Since peter is philosophical, we should be able to leverage this. Academy in moscow and 2 great engineers for UN? Can we work a lightbulb strategy like CFR did last game?
3) I don't want to give away anything from WOTM3 spoiler threads, but some players are complaining about vassal states complicating diplo votes. On the face of it I'm against taking any vassals since we may need to pull a biology population boom at the end to get enough votes. Vassal states will count against us for the domination limits (right?) but we won't be able to boom their population like we can our own cities to get our UN vote count up.

1) Will a more aggressive team be able to get a faster diplomatic victory more conventionally? (by courting allies). How hard is this with aggressive AI?


I would think it would be hard to get the vote conventionally in such a large field. We will get a lot of "you declared war on our friend" mods. Also probably get a lot of the "you refused to help us" and "traded with our worst enemy". In a smaller field I've been able to get a couple or three AI to vote for me--often have an ally and do some last minute civic changing to sway a fence sitter. To get the vote without a lot of conquest seems tough especially as I believe you need them pleased before they will vote for you and that's a bit harder with the agg AI.

Another factor is that I don't think a strong team will leave that much to chance. If you are planning on getting several AI to vote for you and then some religions switch (even FR) or some allies go to war unexpectedly you really are up a creek without a paddle. The strong teams will vote themselves in or maybe count on one or two votes at most and have a backup war ready if that plan fails.

2) How should we best use great people. Since peter is philosophical, we should be able to leverage this. Academy in moscow and 2 great engineers for UN? Can we work a lightbulb strategy like CFR did last game?


I think great people use will be very important, although in this case astro is not the end but the beginning of a bunch of expensive techs.

My understanding is that vassals vote for the master--can anyone confirm that?

I don't have too much warlords experience but I didn't think they were worth it in a normal game--too expensive and still have the culture and happy problems. Might make sense later tho. Kind of crimps the strat of leaving your enemy with one or two cities and extorting tech as they rush to be someone elses vassal.

Here's an article on vassal states from the strategy forum. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193747) Doesn't mention votes for diplomatic victory, but does indicate that having a vassal state incurs diplomatic penalties for other civs.

I have been away on business and holidays. I will be out all this week...business. Since I've been busy, I have not bought Warlords.

Things should settle down after next week. Until then, I won't be of any help.

In general, I agree with the approach we are taking. We may be able to find 1 civ that we can ally with, but this is a bit tricky. We have to target a civ that is far away, a civ that aligns with our strategy, and one that will not be #2 in the UN voting. As I said, it is a bit tricky.

Here's an article on vassal states from the strategy forum. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193747) Doesn't mention votes for diplomatic victory, but does indicate that having a vassal state incurs diplomatic penalties for other civs.

I know the manual says you get credit for 50% of the land and population of the vassals, so I would imagine that applies to Diplomatic votes as well.

Overall, I agree that the VC is going to be Diplomatic. I think the SS victory is just a safety valve for teams that aren't able to pull off the Diplo so that they can still win the SGOTM. Even on some stellar games, I've never beaten 1800 for a SS while I've finished by 1600 for a Diplomatic victory before.

One thing with the Diplomatic victories, since they're determined entirely on the basis of population, it's ultimately population we want to maximize. It's probably possible to acheive 64% population with a little over 30% of the land area since the AI never considers things like building cities in the gaps between other cities or razing over towns to build farms.

Short term strategy, since this is an archipelago map, we probably want to consider an attempt at the Great Lighthouse. It's an absolutely huge bonus on a map where we expect most of our cities to be coastal. We probably also want to build a library, pop a great Scientist, and build an Academy as quickly as possible. The speed of our tech pace will determine how quickly we can win this game: There are other factors that can slow us down, but our date of picking up Mass Media determines the absolute earliest we can win.

Just checking in,
Still working on the practice game. I think we should avoid vassals for a diplomatic victory. Civs usually are pretty small before they will submit so there votes aren't that important and the diplomatic penalty with other civs could lose the votes of more important allies.

Switch to the same religion as Izzy or Monte and bribing them into joining wars is probably the easiest way to get one or two solid allies. Theocratic leaders are good allies too since they won't switch to FR.

Hello, Checking in...

I like what I have been reading so far: going for the laurels, plan the game then execute, diplomacy is faster than SS, substantial but balanced warcraft will be required (are you ok with this Danthor? :confused: ), selective religion to gain (+) relationship modifiers.

I will play the practice game soon.

I know the manual says you get credit for 50% of the land and population of the vassals, so I would imagine that applies to Diplomatic votes as well.


I was able to find this one reference on the subject. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/member.php?u=99207) Not sure how reliable it is, but according to the poster all vassals vote for the master in UN elections. Perhaps a test case is in order? I guess if true, it will be a case-by-case thing to accept vassals & get a guaranteed UN vote vs. the diplomatic penalty with the other civs.

Personally I agree that we can better manage our own population to maximize UN votes (with farms / biology) than the AI, so I would be in favor of straight conquest up until the domination limit with vassals only in special circumstances.

I'm here.

Here's the link to the practice game I PM'd everyone. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/SGOTM3_practice_2_same_settings_and_same_start_BC-4000.CivWarlordsSave)

There is definitely the problem on this map that I didn't catch the jungle up to the north (per the general starting location discussion thread). Maybe some other problems, too.

Hi! I tried the save you PMed us but it was for playing with another Civ, not Rusia (Inca IIRC).

Hello all.

I think we should go for a fast religion + Stonehenge to get a great prophet, and build the religion shrine Wonder. Spread the religion as much as possible to get a substancial economical advantage, plus the religious diplo bonuses.
The starting size provides good initial resources for fast research in the first few turnsets to accomplish this.

Glad this is not a Conquest/Domination game :D

Oh, another thing. Has anyone played with so many rivals before?
I don't have the best gaming PC out there and I'm concerned about the mid-late game, whether my machine will be up to it or not (Pentium IV 2Ghz, 512 MB RAM, ATI Radeon 9250)

Oh, another thing. Has anyone played with so many rivals before?
I don't have the best gaming PC out there and I'm concerned about the mid-late game, whether my machine will be up to it or not (Pentium IV 2Ghz, 512 MB RAM, ATI Radeon 9250)

The 512 MB RAM will probably cause a slow game. If you have the movies turned off, the game will not shut down. Originally I had a low end video card and 256 MB RAM, and the game was very, very slow.

I still have the same video card, but upgraded to 1 GB RAM and is fine. Of course, I have the wonder movies turned off.

Danthor, you should consider adding additional RAM. RAM is the cheapest upgrade for a computer, and it makes a world of difference in gaming.

As for this game, feel free to ignore anything I say:

I don't have warlords
I've not played any practice games
I won't have any time to play until the middle of next week

I have very little to offer....right now

I've played a bit of MS's practice game--a real eye opener.

I'm having trouble attaching a save--can't get the paperclip to open. I'd really like some feedback on the position so any other ideas on getting it out here?

Short version: too much commerce and too few hammers.

Also would like to try another practice game if any of you tech savvy guys could make one.

Danthor--welcome back.


Glad this is not a Conquest/Domination game :D

Actually my guess is we will end up conquering somewhere between 8 and 10 civs so will not be a peaceful game.

Did you get a chance to look at our warmongering turns last game to get a feel for how that worked?

We had discussed trying to play a bit more seriously and try for a laurel--if we want to do that it is vital that we're all on board--is that something you are interested in?

Don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is that in a Warmongering time of game, there is a moment in time in which you just stop research and building and just war until the end of the game.
This will not be the case and I'm glad :)

yes, of course.

Well I tried the practice game as well and have reached a point of too few hammers, too little commerce. The game is certainly winnable by diplomacy but I have painted myself in an ugly economic corner.

I won the liberalism race shortly before 1000AD and stopped playing. I eliminated China with elephants and cats and am taking Inca at the end of game. My army is painfully small and I need the Chinese cities to develop to really start a serious army.

I avoided founding a religion and later chose Buddhism to join the largest bloc. I fiddled for too long before researching Metal Casting and lost the race for the Colossus.

Thoughts:
Trade, trade, trade: I ran 100% science for most of the game. Selling techs to backwards civs is very effective. It doesn't show on the trade list so no diplomatic negatives with other civs. Early workboat explorers to meet the neighbours, open borders with everyone until the religious alliances started to form. Its important to decide who will be your friends early.

Hammers are a big problem everywhere
Conquest is very hard because I just don't have much of an army and can't afford losses. The other civs have small garrisons as well. China will eventually have better production than our island but its still a long way from ready. I didn't see any barbs so getting a unit to 10xp was a big priority. The Heroic Epic will be a big boost to the army. I'm not sure if stacking generals to get high xp units or building a 50% bonus academy in a second production city will be a better tactic. Getting the H.E. built in a decent production city has to be a big priority for any warmongering.

I whipped for my initial army so I don't have any large cities outside of the capital at this point of the game. The Chinese cities are busy building courthouses to reduce maintenance costs.

I was going to spam some missionaries after chosing a religion but its very hard. Many civs don't found religions so its easy to pick a couple of allies for religion spread but hammers are very precious.

War WW not much of a problem because the civs are small. I declared on China before most civs met it and H.C. declared on me so I have no war based demerits, there are so many targets due to the huge diversity of religions that DOW demerits shouldn't be a large problem if we select two or three co-religionist allies. We may want to bribe backward allies to join wars.

Technology Alphabet was a big priority and trading techs can be huge. I was trying to trade whenever possible to keep the research level of almost all civilizations high. I sold techs to any civ that had more than 200gold to fund my own research. The extra trade route, tech for cash, and resource for cash deals from Currency were also big tech boosters. Building the great lighthouse or colossus would also help (although merchants and priests aren't desirable for the final tech lightbulbing)

Great People I built an academy first and used a few other scientists for techs or settling. I didn't build the Great Library but the extra gpp would be a big bonus to get Scientific Method, Physics, Biology, and Electricity quickly + Artists for Radio and Mass Media (maybe try for early Music) and an engineer for the UN. I was aiming for the great library, national epic, 2 scientists and an engineer in the capital and we may want to chop/whip a high food gp farm for this since the capital has such poor production.

Civics We should think about what final civics we will want to have when selecting allies. H.C. declared on me after I captured the Pyramids and switched from H.R. to Representation. Elizabeth is one of my Buddhist allies but she will switch to F.R. and possibly be a problem at the end of the game.

Biology isn't going to work very well on the test map. Lots of very narrow continents that can't be irrigated so most food comes from resources. We will have to look at the situation. I think we have to use the great scientist from Physics on Biology before Electricity but I don't think it will give a huge population boom.

Saving the forests around one city: A great engineer was far from guaranteed with my setup. If we capture a city with 6 or 7 forests, we should preserve it for the UN. We can mass chop/buy the UN after turning off research.

Like Danthor, I have a 512Mb RAM. The game is getting painfully slow at 1000AD. Its fine for a SG, playing 10 turns at a time but difficult to continue solo.

Hi! I tried the save you PMed us but it was for playing with another Civ, not Russia (Inca IIRC).

Danthor, are you sure? The incas show up on the contact list because of some editing I had to do with the world builder. It should be for peter unless I attached the wrong save.

RTB, after capturing the pyramids in the test game did you consider a switch to universal sufferage? Maybe that is the way to solve the cash rich, hammer poor problem we expect on this map...

EDIT: I wonder if we should consider settling 2NE now that Gyathaar has put the blue circles on the map. That looks like a much better hammer location & still lots of forests.

Danthor, are you sure? The incas show up on the contact list because of some editing I had to do with the world builder. It should be for peter unless I attached the wrong save.

No, I'm not sure :lol:
Anyways, doesn't matter; I tried this new one and works fine.

My game went like this: settled in place and started researching fishing. Then at size 2, research mysticism faster by using the crabs, and the polytheism to get Hinduism. I built Stonehenge then I stopped cause my gf caught me playing instead of working :crazyeye:

Acidsatyr's a discussion of an immortal game is a great thread and he really shows how to work a specialist economy--I really learned a lot.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=190690

I played MS's practice game to 325 AD. Hammer poor all game--slight tech leader.

Went for lighthouse and missed. That really hurt. In a hammer poor map to dump 90 for the LH (of little use) and 200 for the GLH so early left me way slow.

Some wonder dates: SH 1720, GW 1540, 790 GLH, Or 460, Pyr 115AD!, TOA 140, GLB 335.

I founded conf in 565 and a half dozen of my neighbors took it--presenting me with a problem--who to attack? All my close neighbors are conf.

The AI seemed to get along pretty well as the water helps to separate them so I think warmongering will generate some widespread "you declared on my friend" mods. So in this case having founded a religion and needing to take my co-religionists out I think pretty well forget about any long term allies.

I also didn't explore as well as I should have--sent one wb on a long journey and built a galley which I couldn't send too far as I needed for other things. Should have had another WB or maybe 2 to send off on a long journey even though hammers were tight.

Selling tech to backward civs seems like a major funding source for a long time.

Another blunder: forgot that the new version doesn't display units on ships. Saw a ship but no units and didn't whip settler and lost island spot.

RTB, after capturing the pyramids in the test game did you consider a switch to universal sufferage? Maybe that is the way to solve the cash rich, hammer poor problem we expect on this map...


I didn't have enough developed towns at 1000AD for U.S. to help. It may be a good longer term solution but I had a couple of towns in the capital and none outside. I went Representation for the bonus research and more importantly happiness in large cities. I had whipped pretty harshly and several cities had -2 or -3 from whipping.

I had cottaged less than normal and was running a few scientists for the gpp. The extreme food limitations for most cities didn't match well with a partial specialist economy. I think the conventional wisdom is philisophical leaders benefit more from multiple gp farms. (Nat. Epic city is 3:2 gpp production for philisophical vs 2:1 for non-philisophical so secondary cities don't constantly lose the race to be the next great person city)

It is hard to find many good gp farm spots on this map. Especially when you can't raze cities and resettle in better locations. A single gp farm in a high food spot may be the best idea.

Hey guys. I just wanted to check back in since we're getting close to the saves being posted. I've been pretty well pedal-to-the-metal for the last week and I expect to be for the next 2 as well while I finish up all of the last-minute assignments that seem to pile up at the end of the semester and get ready for term-ends. I may have some time to discuss in the next two weeks (mostly when I just don't feel like studying anymore,) but it won't be anything I can schedule, so I won't be playing any until after the 13th of December.

I will try and keep up on my administrative duties in the meantime, which basically amounts to keeping track of the roster. :p I just threw it together quickly since nobody other than Lmtoops and myself have said much about scheduling. If anyone has any absences or issues with it, we can modify it, but I'd recommend we just play it fluidly, i.e., if you need a skip the next person in the roster plays and you just move back into the roster in the on-deck slot when you're back.

mushroomshirt
Danthor
RobertTheBruce
llib_rm
ungy
Lmtoops
Grogs

Roster looks good to me. I'm OK with going first, but we've got some big decisions to make. Namely:
1) do we settle in place?
2) do we go for the blue circle to the NE?
3) do we explore more?

Personally, I prefer #2. Settling in place is very hammer poor as others have pointed out. I've also found this in my practice games, too. When settling in place it is hard even to build a library without pop rushing! (even with chops)

I like the hills to the NE for some good long term production and there is enough grassland for lots of cottages.

Exploring more is tempting since our scout is fast and our starting island is probably small. There could be a killer city spot somewhere like Gyathaar engineered last time.

Any thoughts?

That starting spot looks pretty mediocre to me. After our experience in the last game, I'm tempted to agree that there's a pretty good chance Gyathaar has created a better spot for us. Hopefully an E-NE move with the scout will reveal that. Losing a couple of turns in exchange for a better city spot isn't a bad trade-off. The only bad thing about the 2nd blue circle is that it means we can never settle a city to claim the 2 clams. From my (very limited) experience on archipelagos, it's important to consider how large your island is and manage city placement. Good city placement means you can fit 3-4 cities on a decent sized island while poor placement may only allow 2.

That starting spot looks pretty mediocre to me. After our experience in the last game, I'm tempted to agree that there's a pretty good chance Gyathaar has created a better spot for us. Hopefully an E-NE move with the scout will reveal that. Losing a couple of turns in exchange for a better city spot isn't a bad trade-off. The only bad thing about the 2nd blue circle is that it means we can never settle a city to claim the 2 clams. From my (very limited) experience on archipelagos, it's important to consider how large your island is and manage city placement. Good city placement means you can fit 3-4 cities on a decent sized island while poor placement may only allow 2.

One thing that maybe I can do is move the scout E-NE, save and post a screen shot for discussion. This way we can still settle in place if the NE blue circle looks terrible. I'd also like to pause for discussion before actually settling Moscow (assuming we decide to move the settler).

It might be slow to pause like this, but I'd rather be safe than sorry in the early game where a little mistake can cost us lots of turns.

Well I checked the status and results page and saves were available tonight. I popped open the save and moved the scout E-NE and there is some good stuff there. Definitely better to settle Moscow 2NE of the start position. Here is a screenshot for discussion... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

I am unclear about the rules so I tried to post the save to the progress and results page. I couldn't do it, but here it is so you all can look at it if you want...

I will pick up once we have some kind of consensus on settling Moscow, initial builds and initial tech path. Also I assume we are playing 20 turns for the first go-round?

PS - it's been a while since I have uploaded images - I seem to remember there was a new and easy way to do it that didn't require image resizing. Can anyone help me out here? Thanks.

PPS - also for some reason I have no blue circles when I select the settler. Anyone know how to get them back?

PPS - also for some reason I have no blue circles when I select the settler. Anyone know how to get them back?
For some reason they dont show up in the first turn when games are created from a worldbuildersave

I'm leaning toward 3NE on the hill. That leaves us the starting position for city 2 (unless some good stuff shows up north). We also get 2 more scouting turns to see if something remarkable shows up.

Possible builds--war, wb, wb, settler

tech fish first.

I definately wouldn't settle in place. I think it is a real liability to be hammer poor in the capital. That is a great spot for a GP farm.

MS any chance you could create another practice game with the map we see here? I really don't think I have too much of a feel for the game with these parameters.

I don't think we have to hurry at all--this rates to be a busy month for most of us so let's not rush things as the early decisions are the biggest.

I'm leaning toward 3NE on the hill. That leaves us the starting position for city 2 (unless some good stuff shows up north). We also get 2 more scouting turns to see if something remarkable shows up.

Possible builds--war, wb, wb, settler

tech fish first.

I definately wouldn't settle in place. I think it is a real liability to be hammer poor in the capital. That is a great spot for a GP farm.

I'll try running some numbers but I think the hill is the best choice. It sacrifices some long term production but getting earlier workboats will really help settler production and whipping. I think two strong military production cities, the capital and Heroic Epic city to be placed later. With 3 plains hills, the 2hammer city and the stone quarry we will 18 base hammers which will make a good catapult farm.

War, wb, wb, worker, settler (chop), wb (for second city) may be a better order. We get a worker production bonus with the 2.08 changes to expansive. If we sacrifice a forest near the capital we can make back most of the turns spent building the worker and only lose a few turns on the settler. The capital will have 4 forests NNW, NW, WW and SSW and health will probably never be a problem. That leaves 3 forests if we want to chop an early wonder.

fishing first then either bronze working or animal husbandry if there are cows or pigs for a higher production city north of the capital. Then we have to decide if we push for masonry/metal casting, worker techs, COL sling for religion, etc.

The starting location will be a good gp farm/science city. I think we can cottage the river squares and run two scientists and an engineer with the seafood. Building a library, forge and National Epic will be hard. We can chop and whip the library and forge but we may want a second science city/gp farm elsewhere with a bit more production.

Stone near the starting location! I'm curious about rushing the Pyramids. Has anyone tried the early Pyramid specialist gambits? Either chopping the oracle for Metal Casting and whipping/chopping the second city for a forge and engineer specialist or can just chop it in the capital. With a high food low production second city, stone, and a philosophical leader, I think it may give a very large tech boost. I didn't record the pyramids date in my test run but wonders seem to go a bit late in warlords games.

The current location can grow quickly to size 4 (IIRC this is the size limit outside the capital) with the one clam in the starting 9 tiles and a floodplain. The forge can then be chopped/whipped and an engineer used for the pyramids. I'll try this if Mushroomshirt can make a test game. (Sorry, I need to learn how to use world builder.)

Early metal casting also sets us up for the Colossus if we find copper. I don't think we will feel much early pressure from the AI. I'm usually not a wonder builder but a couple of early wonders may really jump start our tech. With a hammer poor map, its really important to have superior units when we fight wars.

3 NE looks like a good spot to me. It's defensible (though that's probably not an issue early in this game) gets an extra hammer from the start, and is far enough from the start we can build a city at the original start location later on for a possible GP factory. We should probably take the settler east, then NE to reveal that last land tile on the south of the island. I think the scout should move NW to look to the west off the hill and then either NE-N or NE-NW. That should give us a good view of all the tiles within 5 turns of the start location, which is further than I would consider moving unless there was an incredible site farther north.

As for the stone and wonders, I think Stonehenge, the Great Wall, and the Pyramids are the only ancient wonders it boosts. I really don't see us getting much use out of SH or the GW in this game, so that just leaves the Pyramids. The question is, what would we use them for if we build them? Police State? Republic? We could try and build both the pyramids and Hanging Gardens in Moscow, then run an engineer after MC and pull 14 Great Engineer points per turn. If we keep that pool pure, it probably gurantees us 2, if not 3 GE's by the time we reach Mass Media. That would mean maybe 1 for the UN and another for an earlier wonder (maybe the GL in our 2nd GP city to focus on scientists?) Another possible use for the Pyramids would be a switch to US right after we finish researching MM and then cash-rushing the UN a few turns later (if we could do it fast enough to hold off the 'We demand emancipation' unhappiness.)

As for research, if you open up the science screen and click on Mass Media, you'll see that there are 27 mandatory techs along the path to Mass Media. Obviously, that type of bee-line wouldn't be very efficient, but it gives us a chance to look at the long-term tech path and see what we can skip and trade for later or skip all together.

MS any chance you could create another practice game with the map we see here? I really don't think I have too much of a feel for the game with these parameters.

I don't think we have to hurry at all--this rates to be a busy month for most of us so let's not rush things as the early decisions are the biggest.

Sure, I can make another practice game. It really isn't that hard.

If everyone is thinking 3NE is a good spot, maybe I should move the settler E, NE then move the scout NW or N, NW to reveal the last tile that would be in the fat cross of the potential capital. Then I could build a more accurate test-map that would model our capital and potential GP city exactly. I think I will do this tomorrow (24 hours or so from this post) unless anyone objects - then post the new screenshot and practice game.

Yes, I think that'd be better.

I totally forgot about the Great Wall. Its very cheap with stone and generates great engineer points. We can research masonry early, build the wall and get the much more expensive Pyramids with the first great person. Its a lot less painful to wait for the first gp with a Philosophical leader than it was in SGOTM02.

I doubt we will see many barbs so the Great Wall's unique abilities are pretty useless. (I thought this in GOTM08? IIRC where I was almost destroyed by barbs on snaky islands.) We'll know more as the scout heads north.

Generating engineers is always a pain so getting the GW, Pyramids and Hanging Garden would really help. It delays an academy or shrine but gives us two wonders generating engineer points for future great people. Early representation will also let us work more of the gp farm and capital sites with the extra happiness.

Mushroomshirt - sounds good.

I think the scout and settler moves ms mentions are no-brainers, so yes, I'm in agreement.

I totally forgot about the Great Wall. Its very cheap with stone and generates great engineer points. We can research masonry early, build the wall and get the much more expensive Pyramids with the first great person. Its a lot less painful to wait for the first gp with a Philosophical leader than it was in SGOTM02.

That's an interesting idea. If we finished the Great Wall in 1600 BC, we'd get the first GE in 730 BC and the Pyramids in 715 BC, and the next GE would show up in 160 BC. We definitely need to make the GW a high priority to pull that off, which probably means either chopping it ASAP or chopping a quick settler and focusing on the GW in Moscow. To be competative (by ungy's numbers) we need to build it by turn 80 (1600 BC) or earlier, preferably earlier. GW+Pyramids+HG+Engineer = 18 GE points/turn. The only real downside of the 'pile on the GE's' strategy that I see is it will slow down our GS's (in a 2nd GP city) and probably mean later Academies.

Here's a good long-term thought process for everyone: What do we do with our GP's? If we can (and want to) pull of the GW->Pyramids strategy, we'll probably get 6-9 GP by the modern era (not counting possible freebies.) Let's call it 7, 4 GE's and 3 GS's. What's the best plan of attack for them? 1 GE would build the pyramids and the last probably for the UN. I'm thinking the 2nd builds the GL to kick off the GS city with a vengence. That leaves 1 GE and 3 GS's to play with. Any suggestions? Other than our first GP, I thought we did really poorly on GP management in the last game. There weren't a lot of great things to do with them admittedly, but that was because we didn't do a lot of long-term GP planning IMO.

I totally forgot about the Great Wall. Its very cheap with stone and generates great engineer points. We can research masonry early, build the wall and get the much more expensive Pyramids with the first great person. Its a lot less painful to wait for the first gp with a Philosophical leader than it was in SGOTM02.

I doubt we will see many barbs so the Great Wall's unique abilities are pretty useless. (I thought this in GOTM08? IIRC where I was almost destroyed by barbs on snaky islands.) We'll know more as the scout heads north.

Generating engineers is always a pain so getting the GW, Pyramids and Hanging Garden would really help. It delays an academy or shrine but gives us two wonders generating engineer points for future great people. Early representation will also let us work more of the gp farm and capital sites with the extra happiness.

Mushroomshirt - sounds good.

In 2.08 the GW generates fewer GE points and the pyramids are more expensive (500 hammers I think). If we want the pyramids for the GE points, I think RTB is right and the way to go is to build the GW right away and let the GE points slowly accumulate.

I have not played too many 2.08 games, but from the posts I have read the pyramids should be built much slower here than we are used to.

Everyone probably has seen these, but just in case, here's a link to 2.08 changes... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3344)

In 2.08 the GW generates fewer GE points and the pyramids are more expensive (500 hammers I think). If we want the pyramids for the GE points, I think RTB is right and the way to go is to build the GW right away and let the GE points slowly accumulate.

That makes a big difference. The GW is apparently the only wonder (that I see) that doesn't give 2 GPP per turn, and I just never noticed it. So if we built the GW in 1600 BC, we wouldn't see our first GE until 175 which would mean Pyramids in 160 BC. Are we better off just building the Pyramids then? That doesn't sound like a really competative date and the Pyramids are much more important that the GW.

BTW, I believe the Pyramids were 675h in Vanilla epic, vs. 750 in Warlords.

That makes a big difference. The GW is apparently the only wonder (that I see) that doesn't give 2 GPP per turn, and I just never noticed it. So if we built the GW in 1600 BC, we wouldn't see our first GE until 175 which would mean Pyramids in 160 BC. Are we better off just building the Pyramids then? That doesn't sound like a really competative date and the Pyramids are much more important that the GW.

BTW, I believe the Pyramids were 675h in Vanilla epic, vs. 750 in Warlords.

Haven't done the math, but are you counting Peter's philosophical bonus in generating great people into your calculation?

Haven't done the math, but are you counting Peter's philosophical bonus in generating great people into your calculation?

Yep, GW would give 2 GPP with phil -> GE in 75 turns. That's the same amount of time it took us to pop a GP in the last game. By contrast, a city with a library running 2 (3x2 = 6 gpp each) scientists would produce a GS in 150/12 = 13 turns.

Yep, GW would give 2 GPP with phil -> GE in 75 turns. That's the same amount of time it took us to pop a GP in the last game. By contrast, a city with a library running 2 (3x2 = 6 gpp each) scientists would produce a GS in 150/12 = 13 turns.

Ugh. That's pretty bleak. As I see it we have 3 options

1) We build the great wall as fast as possible & wait the 75 turns for the GE & hope the pyramids aren't completed yet when he pops.
2) We skip the great wall and go for the pyramids and hope we get them.
3) We build libraries & farm scientists for early academy & science boosts

I think the high percentage play is to go for #3 - this path also has the advantage of really using Peter's philosophical trait to pop great people early in the game. If we had an industrial leader, I might think differently.

Later in the game we can run an engineer in our GP farm with the national epic (maybe pacifism, too?) and pop engineers for the UN. Even if we build hanging gardens, pyramids & GW we are only talking about 10 GPP (5+100%), about the same as running one engineer specialist in the GP farm city with national epic (which would be 9 - 3+200%, I think)...

PS - maybe there is another option. We could roll the dice and build the great wall and selectively run scientists in the GW city so that we have 50% chance of popping a GS and 50% chance of popping a GE. That would cut the turns to the great person in half. If we pop an engineer we build pyramids. If we pop a scientist we build an academy & skip the pyramids. If we pop a GE there is no downside, if we pop a GS there is some downside since a pure GS strategy would have popped him about 3x faster.

As for wonders in general, I think it is hard to imagine a worse map for building them other than the stone. 17 AI with limited expansion area means good chance of a really early wonder builds.

That said, I think the most useful would be the great lighthouse. We will likely be able to trade with a large number of AI even after we start warmongering, and it may never go obsolete.

Having stone and being phil would make pyramids an option as well. Pyramids has a lot going for it--I think the great wall at 1 GPP is not worth it. The pyramid-GL strategy has the drawback of limiting our specs elsewhere. Also we have a competitive advantage for pyramids that we don't have for lighthouse and if we get beat we at least get double coin. Of course much will depend on what we see of our surroundings.

I will be away until Wed. night--not sure if I'll be able to read posts.

Assuming we end up settling on the plains hill 3NE:
We might consider working a 1f 2h tile to get 2 warriors out before building wb's. I think we definately work those while we build the first boat. While in general I think hammers less valuable than food, we'll soon be working a 5f and then a 4f tile. Even if we don't have too much scouting to do we'll need them I think anyway pretty soon.

Tech wise I think after fish BW likely makes sense

In 2.08 the GW generates fewer GE points and the pyramids are more expensive (500 hammers I think).[/URL]

Good spot--I had read but forgotten about

Sure, I can make another practice game. It really isn't that hard.

That would be great--I won't be able to get to it till late in the week at earliest but I think would be very useful as it seems like we as a group really have pretty limited experience with this setup. I think those who play should record their wonder dates--more data will help us decide if we want to build one.

I moved the settler and the scout like we talked about. Here's the resulting screenshot.

I don't think I will post the save since I am about to post the practice game and I don't want anyone to accidentally play the real thing instead of the practice game! I had to be really careful myself! The look very similar. Only difference is that the player name is "Short Straw" on the real one and "mushroomshirt" on the practice game.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

Attached is the practice game.

If OK with everyone, I'd like to wait a week or so for everyone to play it and give advice before moving on. These first few turn-sets will be really important if we are going to try hard for a laurel this time.

I bought Warlords, installed the new patch, and installed HOF...so I am good to go.

I played the practice game (very quickly). I built GW, with no problems. I tried building the Pyramids, but missed it by 4t (~660 BC). I know with a bit of micromanagement, and forest chops I could have gotten the Pyramids...no problem. Between the GW and the Pyramid build, I built a settler and a trireme, so there was plenty of time to complete both wonders.

Are we not gonna get an early religion? I think getting an early religion will solidify our economy for the entire game.

Are we not gonna get an early religion? I think getting an early religion will solidify our economy for the entire game.

IMO, Russia doesn't really lend itself to going for an early religion since we don't start with mysticism. We're also going to lose 2 turns of research moving our settler, making it more risky to shoot for Hinduism. I also don't think we want to put Great Prophet points into our GP pool since what we really want are engineers and scientists. I think we're better off letting one of our neighbors found a religion and build a shrine, then take it from them later, much like we did with Memphis last game.

Attached is the practice game.

If OK with everyone, I'd like to wait a week or so for everyone to play it and give advice before moving on. These first few turn-sets will be really important if we are going to try hard for a laurel this time.


Thank you.

I played the first one and was beat to the Pyramids by 10 turns. I will play this one using the Great Wall approach RTB suggested.

oops,
I didn't realize the Great Wall only gave a single gpp. The Pyramids have two advantages.
1> Additional GE points for the Great Library and to stockpile one or two for the UN build.
2> Happiness and research bonus in the early game but the gems reduce the happiness problem significantly after Iron Working.

I think grabbing the GW early will definitely help. Its only one gpp but counts as a source for the type of gp produced in the later game. The gems make the Pyramids a bit less important.

We have two seafood resources in each of the exposed city sites and an expansive leader so we can grow very large cities. The test map had no pre-calendar happiness resources on our island so Representation was a big boost in my test game. With the gems connected we are up to 7pop in the capital after a forge is built. The capital can work the three hills, quarry, 2 seafood, and a grassland, river cottage at size 7 for a good production city (3 grassland hills = 9 hammers + 2 city + 4 quarry = 15 base hammers) with a reasonable bit of commerce. There is a bit of surplus food to eventually add the coastal tiles, other grassland and specialists as the happiness cap expands. The gp farm can work the floodplain, 2 seafood, another cottage and have 2 scientists at size 6.

The gp farm would be better (either more cottages along the river or another specialist+ bonus beakers) with Representation but we will be using the capital for production so it probably won't be approaching size 8 or 9 until we are near Calendar anyway.

Thanks for the practice game, I'll give it a shot this week.

If we are all in agreement that we should settle the capital on the plains hill 3NE from the original start location, I am thinking that I could play one more turn and get some more information about our island from the scout. I am thinking that NE NW is the best move.

From zooming in on the screenshot, I think that there is coast to the west and (maybe) north of the gems and coast 3N of the stone (also 3N and 1E). I'm thinking that the scout move might show that we are alone on an island, which I think probably plays differently from the scenario where we have a neighbor.

Any objections?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/zoom_on_gems.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/zoom_N_stone.JPG

If we are all in agreement that we should settle the capital on the plains hill 3NE from the original start location, I am thinking that I could play one more turn and get some more information about our island from the scout. I am thinking that NE NW is the best move.

From zooming in on the screenshot, I think that there is coast to the west and (maybe) north of the gems and coast 3N of the stone (also 3N and 1E). I'm thinking that the scout move might show that we are alone on an island, which I think probably plays differently from the scenario where we have a neighbor.

Any objections?


No objection here.

Go for it MS--I agree completely that the game plays much differently if we're alone and that will help our planning a lot.

One issue with all the wonder builds is that we likely are in range of other civs with galleys/wb and there may be some nearby islands to settle. We need to get a few WB out scouting as well and often going for a wonder would really delay that. If we do go for a wonder, I think important to be pretty sure we get it. With the stone and a good settler/worker builder in city2 we might be well positioned.

Well, my second test game was pretty short so here are a summary of some important events from my attempts.

Test Game 1 Test Game 2
Religions
Buddhism 3670BC 3640BC
Hinduism 3040BC 3610BC
Judaism 2050BC 2680BC
Confucianism 565BC 460BC
Christianity 175BC

Wonders
Stonehenge 1570BC 1720BC
Great Wall 760BC 1660BC (built)
Pyramids 295BC 820BC
Oracle 1150BC 730BC
G. Lighthouse 850BC 250BC
Parthenon 190BC 220BC
T. of Artemis 115BC 520BC
Colossus 5AD
H. Gardens 70BC 100BC
Great Library 230AD 250BC (built with eng)

With 16 AIs (and many of the early religion hogs like Izzy, Saladin, H.C.) the religions go quickly. Without Mysticism there is really no chance for any religion before Confucianism and even it is founded pretty early.

Wonders can go very quickly as well. I had no chance to get the Pyramids after getting the Great Wall. I'm not sure if I would have even won the race for the Pyramids. I got an engineer which I used for the Great Library in the science city. Several AIs had Literature before me so that was the only way to get the Library for the science city. I didn't try for wonders in the first game

In the second game I was slow to Writing so I didn't have a problem getting the engineer before a scientist.

Fishing 3700BC, BW 3070BC, Masonry 2650BC, Wheel 2350BC, Pottery 2020BC, IW1330BC, AH 985BC, Writing 850BC, Archery 685BC, Alphabet 460BC
(Ag, Myst, Med, Poly, Priest, Sail, Mono, Math by trade)
265BC Lit then Const - researching M.C at 100BC.

I risked IW, AH to try and rush Monty before he got I.W. and jags. That didn't work I took a city by the gems and a second on the other side of the capital. He had spears on a hill in his capital and I decided not to waste my chariots. I tried again with a small stack of cats with chariots and archers to take his capital. It was risky and I failed after losing a couple of 80% battles. We are now locked in permanent war (this is our third - worker steal, gem city, capital attempt) and falling behind our rivals. I have cats and chariots against jags and axes so neither of us can make much headway. I retired.

Building the Pyramids with an engineer from the Great Wall is very unlikely with with the 2gpp/t to 1gpp/t switch in 2.08. The science city creates a race problem as well. With 28gpp/t (4 scientists + great library) in the second city after the G.Lib, the engineer points in the capital are a complete waste. Even if I build a forge and use an engineer specialists, I'm only getting the one engineer from the capital. It just doesn't have enough surplus food to work multiple specialists.

As far as the three options mushroomshirt outlined:
1: Get Pyramids from engineer after G.W. - The Pyramids would have to be built very late. Getting the Great Library in the gp farm with the engineer is more realistic goal if we want to do this.

2: Build the Pyramids: Possible but we will need masonry and wheel very quickly and will have to really focus our research and builds in the capital. We really want the Pyramids built before 1000BC. We would definitely we able to get an engineer for the Great Library.

3: forget engineers and focus on scientists: Definitely the least risk. We just have to focus on developing the science city.


The Great Lighthouse and Hanging Gardens seem to go really early so prioritizing Metal Casting and getting the Colossus may be a good idea if we run out of expansion sites quickly.

We may have to hope some of the desirable early wonders are built by our neighbors.

Mushroomshirt - I would recommend playing a couple of turns, settle the capital, start fishing and warrior (I think this is the consensus) and see if we are isolated and how much room there is north of the capital. the map is pretty crowded so we may need to rush instead of wonder build if we have a close neighbor. Conversely, if we only have two good city sites on the island; we can probably postpone military techs for a science based start with a wonder or get sailing early instead of masonry.

Mushroomshirt - I would recommend playing a couple of turns, settle the capital, start fishing and warrior (I think this is the consensus) and see if we are isolated and how much room there is north of the capital. the map is pretty crowded so we may need to rush instead of wonder build if we have a close neighbor. Conversely, if we only have two good city sites on the island; we can probably postpone military techs for a science based start with a wonder or get sailing early instead of masonry.

If everyone agrees with this I will follow RobertTheBruce's recommendation:
1) Settle the capital 3NE of start location on plains hill
2) research fishing (work maximum commerce square - river grassland I think EDIT:actually can't do this until boarder expansion, will have to work 1F2H0C tile unfortunately)
3) start warrior build
4) Scout the island as much as possible

I will stop play when fishing is in, build a practice game and open it up for discussion again. I agree that the game plays very differently if we are alone - in the 2nd test game we happen to be next to monty so have to war earlier than we would if we were alone. I think this has a big impact on our strategy.

Sound good?

Sound good?


Yes, sounds good.

It is interesting to look at the graphs in the submission page. It looks like CFR and Xteam went for a military build out while Peanut went worker first. It also looks like Fifth Element went for an early wonder.

I played my real test game (mushroom's game).

Great Wall - 1420 BC
Pyramids - 625 BC
Great Engineer - 445 BC (save for Great Library)
Great Library - 55 BC
Great Scientist - 35 AD (bit unlucky here, but the Grt Library messed up the GP points) Built the Academy.

I managed to pop 2 huts, but got 45 gold and 2 barb warriors...no luck

My 2nd city was to the North. Not a good site, but I had to beat the Aztec's to the spot. I made it with 1 turn to spare. An Aztec setter/archer pair were right behind me.

Also not much luck with religion. I did not attempt to find one myself, but I hoped to adopt a useful religion. The only religion that spread to my empire was Judism, but no one I know has it :cry: So I haven't committed didn't adopt Judism. On the good side, I have few negative relations. And lack of happiness has not been a problem since I am running Representitive goverment.

It's now 215AD and I'm about to declare war on Aztecs with 6 chariots and 2 Horse Archers. I should have concentrated more on building military. I don't think my army is large/powerful enough...we shall see.

So I was able to get the Pyramids in 625BC. I still was able to build up my infrastructure, built 2 settlers and 2 workers. I'm 1 or 2 AIs almost beat me, so it was risky. Also, it hampered my military so I am late to war with the Astecs. I had to slow down growth in my capital, but I don't think that hurt much in the long run.

I guess my point is the Pyramids are possible, but is it worth the risk? I say it's worth the risk.

I should have built the Great Library in my southern city. I didn't think about that at the time. After reading some of your posts, I see that I should have built in the southern city. I would have perserved my Grt Engineer points.

The latest save is attached:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/31206/mushroomshirt_AD-0215.CivWarlordsSave

OK- there were no objections so I wen ahead and played up until we finished researching fishing. Here's the turn log (including previous sessions):
1- Session 1: move scout (took screenshot and stopped here - see previous post). Session 2: Moved settler
2 - move scout (took screenshot again & stopped - made second practice game). Session 3: moved settler to plains hill
3 - found Moscow. work stone. research fishing (9). build warrior (6). See stone to SE of Moscow on desert island
4, 5, 6, 7, 8 - move scout see lots of resources and lots of jungle. No AI
9 - build warrior, start another. Fishing in 3 turns
10 - scouting
11 - culture expands. Start working grassland river
12 - fishing comes in. stop for input

Here are the screenshots:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/73082/Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

Haven't thought much about what to do next. Think I'll make a practice game for this and post it now...

EDIT: well, bad news. When trying to create the practice game my always flaky installation of warlords / civ4 decided to persistently crash to desktop. For some reason this happens every couple of months with my machine, but lately it has been happening more frequently. Usually this can only be solved by a reinstallation of the game. In any case the upshot is I can't post the practice game tonight as planned. Hopefully I'll be able to do it in the next day or so.

Lately I have been thinking about reinstalling windows over X-mas / New Years. I have a feeling a ton of crud has built up on my ~3 year old PC that is contributing to my problems. Maybe a memory upgrade is in order, too. I guess what I'm saying is I'll try my best to post the practice game and get through this turn set, but I may just have to submit the save and pass the torch to Danthor prematurely here.

???

I thought we were gonna wait 1 week to play the test game?

???

I thought we were gonna wait 1 week to play the test game?

Sorry Danthor. We probably should have waited a bit more for everyone to comment.

MS posted a few comments and a few of us tried the test games. Our paths were dramatically different for games where we shared an island with another civ or were alone. The maps are pretty crowded.

We now know we are alone on our island. If there was another civ on the island, the Pyramids would be very risky. The only pre-Calendar happiness resource available are gems (lots of gems). Happiness resources have a big influence on building the Pyramids. The larger cities we can grow under Representation are probably as important as the extra beakers from specialists. Building the Pyramids is risky but might be really worthwhile on this map.

Pyramid cons:

1> Where do we get workboats? The second city location can produce additional workboats and a library by whipping after the first clam is connected. Producing that first workboat in St. Petersburg will be a real pain. Additional workers and settlers are a bit easier since we can use the food surplus while we wait for the Pyramids.
We also may need an early galley if the workboats reveal a choice location on a nearby island.

2> This map will require some barb busting. The island is very hammer poor but reasonably big. We are going to need a few warriors to fog bust.

Military resources: We are going to need IW quickly and lots of workers to chop jungle. I thought iron, copper and horses wouldn't appear under jungle on a standard map but that doesn't leave many tiles on this island.

Exploring and beelining to Alphabet (Literature if we have an engineer coming) seem to work very well to accelerate research. With a very high potential commerce/low production home island, we can research very quickly.

???

I thought we were gonna wait 1 week to play the test game?

In a previous post I had recommended moving the scout one more time - RobertTheBruce posted a recommendation of founding moscow and researching up to fishing since that seemed to be the consensus path. I thought I was clear in my next post that I was going to follow RTB's recommendation. I gave everyone a day to object, but I realize that I could have been clearer about this in my post.

I'll try to communicate better in the future.

Incidentally, my computer is pretty hosed. I don't think I will be able to create the test game I promised and will probably have to pass the torch to Danthor at this point. As such I've posted the save to the results page here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Short_Straw_SG003_BC3670_01.CivWarlordsSave). Because my civ will be down for a while, I won't be able to run any practice games but I'll try to keep up on the discussion.

Here's the automatically generated turn log from the submission. For some reason it doesn't quite match my records. ???
Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3670 BC:


Turn 2, 3940 BC: Moscow has been founded.

Turn 9, 3730 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 10, 3700 BC: You have discovered Fishing!



EDIT: PS I must have mis-clicked something - not sure how that icon got to the subject line of my post or even what it means !?!

MS--too bad about your computer.

I played the practice game a bit but because of the neighbor probably not that relevant for this game--
wonders were pretty late: SH 1270, GW 775, Or 700, GLH 595, Col 505, Pyr 340, ToA 280.

I build a dozen chariots and rushed Monte in 730--Tenoch had 3 archers and fell to the last chariot. Took 3 more cities and quit in 280 BC.

I think the next set can be played without too much controversy--I think we want to research BW, build 2 WB (although we should pause and complete the warrior as otherwise we will lose the hammers we've invested). We should switch to work a 1f, 2H tile until boat is completed and then work fish and 1f,2H tile once we grow to 2.

I think building the pyramids would be a mistake. It seems very likely that we have other civs in galley range, and it will be a scramble to colonize our continent as is. I'm sure we will be hammer limited and not tech limited this game. I would rather hurry to IW and build a whole lot of workers and develop the continent. Another risk on building the pyramids is we could run into an engineered capital like we saw the first 2 GOTM's and could get beat. That would really be catastrophic.

If we did want to give it a shot, I would recommend building the GW, then whipping a library, run a scientist and take a chance on the engineer. That would limit our bet and the engineer point could be useful later on.

I think getting an extra wb or preferably 2 out to scout is really important. We need to know if there's something good across from Moscow to settle as well as get contacts.

It looks like our continent extends across from our start location--we could still have an AI with us as well as more city sites.

I would say if we get an opportunity for an early war we should take it. We can always catch up in tech--as phil we can get scientists easily and lightbulb and trade. The gems will help us from crashing the economy anyway.

tech wise not sure what we do after BW. Probably wheel and pottery as we have half price granaries--easy to whip.

I think after the 2nd WB we should build worker then chop settler. The other possibility is settler, WB, worker which gets city 2 going a little faster.

Military resources: We are going to need IW quickly and lots of workers to chop jungle. I thought iron, copper and horses wouldn't appear under jungle on a standard map but that doesn't leave many tiles on this island.


I think it is possible that resources are under jungle on this map as it is may be edited.

Another reason to expand quickly--no city razing means that if we let the AI settle we are stuck with their location.

I think it is possible that resources are under jungle on this map as it is may be edited.

Most likely; it happened in the WOTM with Copper.

I think the next set can be played without too much controversy--I think we want to research BW, build 2 WB (although we should pause and complete the warrior as otherwise we will lose the hammers we've invested). We should switch to work a 1f, 2H tile until boat is completed and then work fish and 1f,2H tile once we grow to 2.


I think we should go Mysticism->Politeism to get a religion.
Also go for Stonehenge would be pretty easy.

@ungy

I agree work boat and Bronze Working for the next turn set. Depending on the food totals, it may make sense to whip the second boat, grow back to size two while finishing the warrior and then starting on a worker. We need a few worker techs to start expanding.

I played the first test game past building the UN and it soured me a bit on the Representation/Great Library combo. I got an engineer for the UN from a captured wonder by running one engineer in the city for a very long time. The Great Library was obsolete by 1100AD because we have to research Scientific Method quickly. Conversely, the Great Lighthouse would be a great wonder to capture since we don't need Corporation and all cities are coastal.

After Education/Liberalism for Astronomy the final research beeline was Printing Press, Scientific Method, Physics, Electricity, Radio, Mass Media. That's ~40,000 beakers after Scientific Method (34,000 after the GS from Physics and a second which popped just as the gpp rate dropped; no trading for gunpowder until after using the GSes). That's more than twice the number of pre-S.M. beakers. Massive cottaging and multiple academies would have paid off more in the end than lightbulbing early techs. I may just not understand Specialist economies very well but researching Radio was brutal. Although, I still finished the UN long before I was ready for a vote.

Hammers are a big problem. Trebuchet/mace/knight was a fine combination for fighting (I eventually traded for Chemistry, M.T., Rifling, and Biology with my allies and Mansa) but I was just too slow expanding. I was finishing a second civ in 1000AD and in 1540 with the UN finished I have the large cities from 4 other civs for a bit over 20% of the world's population. (I've been avoiding garbage cities in the tundra and resource poor islands to stay well below the domination treshold) The 2.08 warlords AI builds big cities so grabbing a significant share of the world's population is hard. Leaving a couple of hated scapegoats with a single garbage island city is good for avoiding trading with our worst enemy demerits as well.

I have a few allies but they are like herding cats. Everyone hates or loves different civs which limits my current targets to the usual nutcases without losing votes. I can probably get to 40% off the population after I eliminate the last nuts (Monty, Alex, Toku) but one of my allies is now the 2nd largest civ and my chosen target won't take any of my cities. Diplomatic victories make me want to tear my hair out.

Ungy, you've won some quick diplomatic victories in the GOTMs. Is it better to research to Democracy for Emancipation and Free Speech before beelining to Mass Media? Grabbing Chemistry with one of the GSes I used on Electricity to make conquest faster rather than going straight for MM would have been better as well. I could stay at 100% research by selling Scientific Method, Physics, and Electricity for cash and technologies but I only had 600 or 700 beakers per turn.

I think we should go Mysticism->Politeism to get a religion.
Also go for Stonehenge would be pretty easy.

I think it's not very realistic to think we could get an early religion playing against 17 AI and us not starting with mysticism, especially as we researched fishing first.

I think our chances of getting confucianism are pretty good and also taoism if we want it.

The problem with stonehenge is we really don't want the prophets.

RTB-

I should say my experience here is pretty limited. I played a couple of GOTM's where I got big pretty quick and decided to go diplo. I had a pretty good idea of where my votes were going to come from before I got to astro.
I think that is really the key piece and I think likely to be most difficult here.

Tech wise I think I went to liberalism, built univ and Oxford at 0% science building up $, then ran at 100% once Oxford was in place and went straight for mass media. I also didn't have too many GP, so I started an engineer early in a non-gp city to get it ready which was possible as I had few GP all game.

I think getting votes will really be the challenge, and we may just need to get 60% of the pop or close to it. Hard to imagine too many allies voting for us by then--I think probably best to try and keep one or two.

So I totally agree that hammers are the limiting factor, and I think we should plan our game accordingly, which to me means expanding faster earlier even if our economy takes a hit. That would also mean building settlers/workers instead of wonders. We can always lightbulb and trade a ton to catch up on tech but the real estate is tough later.

MS--too bad about your computer.


Thanks - I think I can rescue it. Should have 1 or 2 more good years left in it. I hope to be back on-line with civ after Christmas. It's really been performing poorly for me anyway, my whole WOTM2 game was shot because of crashes & a corrupted autosave (not to mention poor city placement!)

As for this SGOTM - I don't see a whole lot of upside to the pyramids but there is a whole lot of opportunity cost if we miss them. There is a lot of commerce on this map once we get to IW for some jungle clearing, so we can build a really strong science base to research to mass media and get a tech lead on our enemies.

I like Danthor's idea of going for early religion - I think it could help with any happiness problems we run into by not getting the pyramids. I think going for Confucianism is our best bet instead of Hindu, though. If we research BW, pottery, writing, CoL I would think we would get it. Caste system could help with great people generation, too.

I like Danthor's idea of going for early religion - I think it could help with any happiness problems we run into by not getting the pyramids. I think going for Confucianism is our best bet instead of Hindu, though. If we research BW, pottery, writing, CoL I would think we would get it. Caste system could help with great people generation, too.

I think we have to rush to IW on this map. Clearing the land for a couple of cities and getting gems is just critical. We need to settle the jungle area or the AI will.

We can solve the mid-game happiness problems with HR. It might make sense to go COL then alpha and trade the rest of the gaps--we might be able to trade COL for monarchy. One problem with founding a religion is that many neighbors take it--then when it's time for conquest we are surrounded by our friends.

As for Caste system, we are not spiritual so switching back and forth is costly. I think with all the food on this map and so little hammers we likely will stay in slavery and whip regularly. While the GP will certainly be useful, the key GP are engineers which caste can't get us.

Religion it's not only about happines, mostly about $$$. Thus we need a great prophet (hence Stonehenge) to build the shrine wonder.

I think our religion will play a role in the game. In my eyes, there are pros & cons between founding and/or accepting a neighbors depending on our mid-game strategy. Sorry for the non-answer, but without understanding what our expected strategy is, it is hard to form an opinion.

As an aside, I have been too busy these last few weeks and expect to remain so for the next while. I will try to keep up and will chime in if I have anything to offer.

Religion it's not only about happines, mostly about $$$. Thus we need a great prophet (hence Stonehenge) to build the shrine wonder.

If we could found one of the early religions I think that would make sense.
However, we are playing against 17 AI and we didn't start with mysticism or even research it first. So our chance of getting Hindu is pretty low and Budd even lower. Both so remote it would be poor strategy to go for them as we really need other techs.

If we found a late religion, spreading it is not so easy without missionaries which are probably not the best use of hammers. The late religion will also be founded in a city other than capital, losing the capital bonus and synergy building bank, etc. So probably not worth building a shrine for a late religion anyway.

I think there is an argument for SH for the culture--it's really pretty cheap if we can hook up stone but not sure about teching that way. I would view the prophet points as useless at best.

I think we have to rush to IW on this map. Clearing the land for a couple of cities and getting gems is just critical. We need to settle the jungle area or the AI will.

So are you proposing BW->IW as the tech path? I suppose this could work, but I would be interested in getting pottery and writing for commerce and research potential. We probably won't have a 3rd settler for a while, & I think it makes sense to settle the second city in the original start location. We'll need an army of workers to chop that jungle so that gives us some time, too.

What about BW->Wheel->Pottery->writing->CoL->IW? I bet we could still get IW by the time we would really need to chop that jungle.

We can solve the mid-game happiness problems with HR. It might make sense to go COL then alpha and trade the rest of the gaps--we might be able to trade COL for monarchy. One problem with founding a religion is that many neighbors take it--then when it's time for conquest we are surrounded by our friends.

Good point on HR. I also like early alphabet on this map, lots of trading opportunities. Declaring on neighbors who share our religion doesn't seem to be any worse than neighbors who don't share our religion plus if we are running theocracy or organized religion, we get civics bonus right away from those conquered cities, so it seems like a good thing to me.

As for Caste system, we are not spiritual so switching back and forth is costly. I think with all the food on this map and so little hammers we likely will stay in slavery and whip regularly. While the GP will certainly be useful, the key GP are engineers which caste can't get us.

You are right about this. Caste system might be useful if we were going for the pyramids & running lots of specialists under representation. But not in the situation we are discussing now.

BTW, there seems to be a decent post IW production city on the isthmus near clams, rice and two gems. Perhaps we should prioritize this site since we are so hammer poor. Also to the NW of our start is a cow and a plains hill that could be accessed pre-IW. This is good for at least some hammers. Maybe we should consider overlapping city cites to share those high-hammer tiles?

So are you proposing BW->IW as the tech path? I suppose this could work, but I would be interested in getting pottery and writing for commerce and research potential. We probably won't have a 3rd settler for a while, & I think it makes sense to settle the second city in the original start location. We'll need an army of workers to chop that jungle so that gives us some time, too.



agree about 2nd city. Not sure about tech path--it doesn't make sense to get IW before we can use it and we really need a 3rd settler (second built one) for that and probably at least 2 workers. Remember a single gem mine is pretty huge for commerce this early. Haven't got time now but maybe figure out how many turns to build 2 settlers, 2 workers, and maybe 4WB (and finish the warrior). I think I would want IW just before the second settler build. I think city 2 can build the second worker or second settler.

My guess is that we will want wheel and pottery and likely myst before IW but I think writing after. I think we rather build other things than lib for a while and COL needs also priest which I think takes us way too long.

Pottery gets us half price granaries, which can be whipped for one pop. We'll want to cottage the floodplains as well. Wheel lets us connect our cities for 2 road builds.

Remember the AI will likely settle that area if we don't. IW will also reveal the resource, which will tell us a lot about our game direction. It may tell us that we need to get sailing and settle another island to get iron.

I think looking at all we need to build really makes me come down against building any wonders.

Maybe we can play the next set if we're agreed on BW and the WB build?

Just play till BW and then leave for discussion. We'll know a bit more about the landscape then and can plan better. Maybe dot map some future cities?

I think build WB with a 1F 2H tile then complete warrior then start another WB.

Maybe we can play the next set if we're agreed on BW and the WB build?

Just play till BW and then leave for discussion. We'll know a bit more about the landscape then and can plan better. Maybe dot map some future cities?

I think build WB with a 1F 2H tile then complete warrior then start another WB.

Danthor is up next, so probably important to see what he thinks. In his last post he was proposing myst->poly, so not sure he is on board with bronze working at this point. What do you think, D?

Dot map sounds like a smart thing. Plus, that's one thing I can help with before my CPU is civ worthy again.

Could people weigh in on this:

play next set researching BW

build WB working 1f2H tile then switch to warrior to avoid losing hammers.

then build another WB

When BW is in pause for discussion as to further tech research.

At that point we will have a better idea of the land and can dot map future cities, plan tech, etc.

Danthor-

I would say if you like the plan above go for it. If you want to try for an early religion (which I assume means hinduism) let's discuss.

Please provide your estimate of how likely we are to get it and how you see the cost/benefits. I think the rest of us think it's too risky to try but I'd be happy if you convinced me otherwise.

It's important that we're on the same page as teammates.

Could people weigh in on this:

play next set researching BW

build WB working 1f2H tile then switch to warrior to avoid losing hammers.

then build another WB

When BW is in pause for discussion as to further tech research.

At that point we will have a better idea of the land and can dot map future cities, plan tech, etc.

I think this is a good plan.

Danthor-

I would say if you like the plan above go for it. If you want to try for an early religion (which I assume means hinduism) let's discuss.

Please provide your estimate of how likely we are to get it and how you see the cost/benefits. I think the rest of us think it's too risky to try but I'd be happy if you convinced me otherwise.

It's important that we're on the same page as teammates.

I'm still for mysticism->Hinduism + Stonehenge.
I the test games I managed to get it (with fish first) but only because I settled in the start spot which was research friendly, so I'm not sure how it would work out in our starting place.
Otherwise I'd take the path to masonry to get that stone quarry running.
what's the rush for BW?

BW lets us use the nearby forests to accelerate growth. We can produce a worker quickly with the new 2.08 expansive bonus and chop the forests near the capital to speed settlers. We will never need the capital forests for health or production so we might as well use the bonus hammers for early expansion. Whipping the first two cities (double seafood) for production will be needed although this isn't an immediate priority.

It also may reveal copper on our island which can change city placement. The map is very hammer poor so fitting a mine and a few hills into the same city will really boost our military.

I am a toss-up on the found a religion / adopt a religion question. Maintenance costs will be a big issue on this map so bonus gold will really help. The problem is spreading the religion. Spending hammers on missionaries is really questionable if we plan to attack 7 or 8 other civs. I originally thought about spreading a religion to gain allies but it may be cheaper to just wait for a prominent religion to spread to us and build or capture the Great Lighthouse to defray maintenance with extra trade routes. Its much easier to select a couple of allies if you are agnostic rather than trying to spread a certain religion.

Fishing, Mysticism, Polytheism is definitely faster than Mysticism, Polytheism because we would have no good tiles to work without Fishing. The quarry has no more production than a mined plains hill so I don't think Masonry is that important. I would definitely prefer a few worker related techs for expansion over a run at an early religion. Isabella, H.C., Saladin, Monty, and Ghandi or Asoka start with Mysticism and will try to found an early religion. We still don't have a lot of commerce so its risky to try for Hinduism. I wouldn't be suprised if Buddhism and Hinduism were both founded within the next 10 to 15 turns.

If we went for Hindu we could get it around 2800. My guess is also like RTB that we would be beaten as 5 AI start with myst. I'll run a few tests to see how that date holds up.

I would like to get playing, as the holidays will be tough for me and we are 2000 years behind the next slowest.

I ran 8 tests, and the two practice games, and I was surprised at how often hindu was founded late. Based on those 10 games, we could beat the AI date in 5 of them, which makes going for hindu not as unrealistic as I originally thought.

I still think that this map the key is REX with iron to work all those juicy gems.

We need a lot of workers, and I still rather focus on fogbusters, a couple of exp wb, and settlers and workers.

The problem I see with religion is:

1. If it really is as high as 50/50 that is still a gamble. We will be disappointed if we lose it, especially if we sink a lot of beakers into poly.

2. I don't think we can afford to build SH for the culture and prophet, as that would delay BW too much. Going for masonry after poly would still get us too late I think to hook up stone in time for SH.

3. The culture expansion is really useful, but the spread is a bit uncertain. So we might have to build obilisks in some cities anyway.

Otherwise I'd take the path to masonry to get that stone quarry running.
what's the rush for BW?

BW is 3 things, not all of which are needed immediately.

1. The game really revolves around military resources. Knowing where they are is critical for planning the game.

2. Slavery. We will need to whip and whip hard all game. Our first 2 cities have excess food and not enough hammers.

3. Chopping. We have 2 hills to chop for early settler.

Masonry gives us a 1f4h tile which is certainly useful but probably not worth researching as it is otherwise not useful other than for wonders we likely can't afford.

AH gives us a better tile for our likely 3rd city in the cows, locates horse.
Wheel is needed, pottery allows cottages +half price granaries (powerful with whipping). Myst for culture expansion, IW to clear jungle. I would take all of those before masonry, and possibly sailing if we need to claim an oversea resource.

BW is 3 things, not all of which are needed immediately.

1. The game really revolves around military resources. Knowing where they are is critical for planning the game.

2. Slavery. We will need to whip and whip hard all game. Our first 2 cities have excess food and not enough hammers.

3. Chopping. We have 2 hills to chop for early settler.

Masonry gives us a 1f4h tile which is certainly useful but probably not worth researching as it is otherwise not useful other than for wonders we likely can't afford.

AH gives us a better tile for our likely 3rd city in the cows, locates horse.
Wheel is needed, pottery allows cottages +half price granaries (powerful with whipping). Myst for culture expansion, IW to clear jungle. I would take all of those before masonry, and possibly sailing if we need to claim an oversea resource.

Here's a thought... Since we don't need bronze immediately (pop is not high enough for slavery, no workers for chopping or settlers to build cities near the copper) and myst is on our tech path too, maybe Danthor can research up to mysticism and stop.

If someone else founds Hinduism, maybe Danthor would agree to research bronze working next. If we finish mysticism and we still have a shot at Hinduism, then we have a debate then about whether to go for it.

Maybe this is a good compromise?

Here's a thought... Since we don't need bronze immediately (pop is not high enough for slavery, no workers for chopping or settlers to build cities near the copper) and myst is on our tech path too, maybe Danthor can research up to mysticism and stop.


Well if we start poly it will no longer make sense to build a worker after WB, War, WB as there will be nothing for it to do.

A map filled with goodies and we won't be able to START a worker in 2900 because we won't have any relevant worker techs.

Another risk with letting the AI expand into the jungle--no city razing means we are stuck with the AI placement forever. The little I've played v. 2.08 I've seen the AI settle on resources a lot--leading to some pretty bad city placement.

I think Danthor and I play civ pretty differently and it will be hard for both of us to be happy with each other's play.

Danthor, I wish you would post more detail of your reasoning, it would help me have more respect for where you are coming from and maybe learn more from you.

I've said all I will about the start here--I think the rest of the team needs to get more involved.

I feel like I had a conflict last game with Danthor that I didn't enjoy and don't want to start this one out that way--this is supposed to be fun.

I've been reading along, but not commenting. So I guess I will add my two cents.

I highly doubt we will get an early religion. We waited a few turns (3?) to find our first city, so we are 3 turns behind any civ. With so many AIs, 2 or more are bound to be Spritual and they will compete for the early religion...not us. Therefore, I think any strategy based on getting an early religion is faulty.

The immediate need for BW is for chopping, therefore speed up our immediate builds (worker, settler, work boat). Also know where or if we have copper is nice to know. I doubt we will use slavery any time soon; slavery benefit will come later.

My vote is to after BW, first.

The immediate need for BW is for chopping, therefore speed up our immediate builds (worker, settler, work boat). Also know where or if we have copper is nice to know. I doubt we will use slavery any time soon; slavery benefit will come later.

But that is contradictory because for chopping you need a worker.
I admit goign for an early religion is risky, and I think mushroomshirts suggestion of researching 1 thing then stop to ponder how things are is very sensible.

I think Danthor and I play civ pretty differently and it will be hard for both of us to be happy with each other's play.

Danthor, I wish you would post more detail of your reasoning, it would help me have more respect for where you are coming from and maybe learn more from you.

I've said all I will about the start here--I think the rest of the team needs to get more involved.

I feel like I had a conflict last game with Danthor that I didn't enjoy and don't want to start this one out that way--this is supposed to be fun.

well, you have to remember this is not a conquest/domination game.
For a diplomatic win we need quite an advanced tech, and for Space Race win even more adavanced techs. We absolutely MUST have a solid economy because won't reach a point of going 0% research as in previous games, and for that I think IMHO that religion is a very powerful option. I don't really care about the relations modifiers because we probably will go to war with our closest neighbours and later acquire free religion civic to get rid of any negative religious modifier, but trust me that having a widespread religion + its shrine is very very nice ;) (I run 100% research all the time after getting a rel.+shrine).
Even if we don't go for a religious start, I don't think BW should be the first tech, because: 1) we don't want to sacrifice pop. so early, 2) we don't have a worker to chop forests. 3) we don't need to know where copper is until we have our 2nd settler (I'm assuming we'll go with the starting spot for 2nd city).

well, you have to remember this is not a conquest/domination game.


The fastest way to diplomacy is through conquest until the population number is assured. Toss in a few of science centers and a great engineer to hurry the United Nations. There are other ways to win diplomacy, but they won't win the laurels.

I think Danthor and I play civ pretty differently and it will be hard for both of us to be happy with each other's play.

I feel like I had a conflict last game with Danthor that I didn't enjoy and don't want to start this one out that way--this is supposed to be fun.

You are not the only one to feel like this. :sad:

OK guys one more set of posts then no more until the set is played I promise.




You are not the only one to feel like this. :sad:

thanks

I played a couple of more starts using MS's test game 3970. I wasn't clear before on the build order and tech but I am now.

I built in both cases 2WB, finish warrior, 2 worker and one settler. Played until 2110.

The path WB, finish warrior (and grow to 2), worker, WB,(grow 3) settler worker was the superior path. There was some MM required around growing to 3. Building the 2nd WB before the worker led to an inferior position but not by too much.

The tech order was clear. BW, Wheel, Pottery. There was not a turn to spare and actually we were a turn late on getting pottery. City 2 has a lot of food and low hammers--hence start granary and whip at pop 2. City 2 will be whipping extensively so the early granary is well worth it.

Also hindu was founded early on both further tests.

well, you have to remember this is not a conquest/domination game.
For a diplomatic win we need quite an advanced tech, and for Space Race win even more adavanced techs. We absolutely MUST have a solid economy because won't reach a point of going 0% research as in previous games


I agree with you completely about building a strong economy. Despite what you might think I am actually an overbuilder. My best GOTM have been diplo, including a 1640 victory in GOTM 10(the immortal one) which may be fastest if it is ever scored.

In the other games, we trashed the economy near the end to finish a few turns faster which we obviously won't do this time.

Space race is a nonissue if we are playing for a laurel--would be way slower.

I think IMHO that religion is a very powerful option. I don't really care about the relations modifiers because we probably will go to war with our closest neighbours and later acquire free religion civic to get rid of any negative religious modifier, but trust me that having a widespread religion + its shrine is very very nice ;) (I run 100% research all the time after getting a rel.+shrine).
Even if we don't go for a religious start, I don't think BW should be the first tech, because: 1) we don't want to sacrifice pop. so early, 2) we don't have a worker to chop forests. 3) we don't need to know where copper is until we have our 2nd settler (I'm assuming we'll go with the starting spot for 2nd city).

I'm not sure I get you about running 100% research and a shrine. If I'm running 100% research it means my empire is not big enough. It's the total beakers not the % that matter. We actually are likely to run a high research rate this game by selling tech to backward AI.

There are two problems with the shrine approach. One is that to spread religion widely we need to build a ton of missionaries. Without that the shrine is about as good as a settled priest. Missionaries are expensive, I'd rather build units and conquer than a 60H unit that will (probably) get us an extra 1g a turn early (and 2-3g/turn later) especially on this map. There is lots of commerce and little hammers.

As for BW, if we go WB, finish warrior, worker (the superior path), we need to research it immediately. Even the WB, finish warrior, WB worker path would not let us start poly.

Also don't underestimate the power of knowledge--we may decide we need sailing to get bronze or rearrange some other priorities based on what we see.

If we went for religion, (which I think a mistake) and got it we still could not get a prophet too easily as we need BW to use workers at all and not enough time to research BW, Mas, Wheel and build stonehenge.

THE POWER OF EARLY EXPANSION

You get exponential growth by building settlers and workers. That is the crux of why it is most important to research early worker techs and get the first few settlers out quickly, even if the land grab isn't urgent. Food is the most critical as it can be converted into hammers. Commerce will catch up as cottages develop and cities grow. As long as we don't tank the economy too bad, nothing is more important than REX, and with all the gems we just don't have to worry.

So what seems like a cheap early wonder is actually not so cheap and a tech detour actually quite costly if it slows the expansion.

Here's a thought... Since we don't need bronze immediately (pop is not high enough for slavery, no workers for chopping or settlers to build cities near the copper) and myst is on our tech path too, maybe Danthor can research up to mysticism and stop.


MS--I have to disagree, although I do appreciate the attempt to try and satisfy everyone. There are three problems with this approach:

1. If we only build one WB then we need BW immediately. Even if we build 2WB (a little worse), we cannot start Poly without losing precious worker turns and would have to build something else.

2. Going for myst (which we need, but much later) and then not following up with poly really only accomplishes keeping Danthor happy in the event that hindu is founded really early. It is more likely to be founded while we are researching poly than before we start. I don't expect Danthor to be too upset in that scenario anyway.

3. My test games showed that we needed pottery ASAP after BW. There was no time to waste on a detour to myst.

If anyone has any other build ideas or tech order, I would encourage you to run some tests with the 3970 practice save and post thoughts. That is adequate for the early game.

I've spent a fair amount of time with this and am really pretty clear that the build order should be: WB, finish War(grow 2), Worker, WB, (MMgrowth to 3),settler.

Tech order for those builds needs to be BW, Wheel, Pot.

City 2 should be founded at start site and start Gran asap.

First worker chops hill forests then builds mine.

I would propose that we vote on the tech and build order for Danthor's set and that if there is a tie Danthor should make the call. But let's get playing.

I've said way more than enough so I will try to hold my tongue until the next set.

MS--I have to disagree, although I do appreciate the attempt to try and satisfy everyone. There are three problems with this approach:


I'm happy to yield to you since you have played the test games & seem to have a sensible strategy. I am handicapped by my lack of civ (until my massive reinstall attempt).

From reading the other team threads from SGOTM1 and 2 - I've realized that we are awfully nice to each other compared to the other teams. Team CFR is not shy about expressing candid opinions about their teammates' strategy or performance. And they are the top team!

The idea that we will get an early religion (buddihism or hinduism) is just crazy; it will not happen. Maybe (with some luck) we could have if we went after it with our first technology, but not after we researched Fishing. It will never happen.

Now don't get me wrong, Fishing was the correct choice. So the immediate question is what tech do we go after next. Of available techs to research, I would throw out Mysticism, Agriculture, Archery, and Animal Husbandry; I don't see any immediate needs for any of these. Ok, AH gives you the horses, which could effect the 2nd city placement...but I think it can wait.

That leaves wheel, sailing, masonry, and bronzeworking. With sailing, we can get a galley and load up the scout for exploration. The problem is our build queue is pretty full, so something has to go. The upside of this is exploration, and possible goody hut.

Wheel has to wait until we have something to connect (such as stone quary). Also wheel leads to pottery, which brings the cottages. Wheel can wait until we hit city size 4.
Masonry is good for the quary (a definite benefit), but that's all.
Bronze Working...we've heard all about the benefits.

So of the possible choices, I would pick BW or Sailing. For the next tech, I choose BW. I think chopping the forests is huge. We should have the worker by the time we get BW.

After BW, we can take 2 weeks argueing about going after sailing. The build order,proposed by Ungy, is fine. If we go after sailing, we will need to build a galley, but that would be after the settler.

Yes I think voting is the best now, we need to get moving.

I vote for either Mysticism (religious path) or Animal Handling (working path).

I vote Bronze Working (working path)

I would vote Bronze Working and warrior, worker build. We will need Animal Husbandry for our third city but not second. Masonry is only good for improving one tile and chopping will help get the settler out for the second city.

I vote bronze working.

Until someone else posts a similarly tested strategy I would also vote to follow ungy's workboat warrior worker build order.

Myself I could see possibly workboat warrior workboat, but I will not stick to this position since I cannot properly counter ungy's plan with a test