Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Wahooo team forum.. cant wait to do this weee :)

Checking in !

Some initial thoughts :
- Peter is Philosophical and Expansive. This means we get cheaper granaries, universities and harbors, and great people.
- scout E and NE seems to reveal most land.
- with a crowded map and agressive AI I guess we shouldn't move too far. If the scout doesn't show us anything, settle in place ?
- we start hunting and mining. Going for fishing and sailing first seems like a good idea : hook up the clams first since there's no other 'quick' resource on land nearby.
- just an idea on strategy : we'll need a strong naval force in all circumstances. If we really focus on this, even inferior land units could be successfully used for both defense and attacK :hmm: .

Checking in too. Agree with fishing and sailing; all the goody huts are overseas. Need to check out our island first in terms of size, neighbours, resources. So maybe fishing while exploring island then decide on immediate expansion/development.

Most importanly expansive trait gives us 50% bonus to hammer production when producing workers. This leads me to think that the forrests should be chopped for workers (as they will give more hammers this way)

It will allso affect slaving where each pop will give 50% more hammers to workers. So Slaving some workers seems like a good idea.

I agree on triemes as we can chain em to move units very fast over large distances - at the same time ofcourse gaining some sea supperiority.

Epic speed means +1 hammer in beginning makes a huge difference in turns to produce, so whenever possible try to settle on plain hills for +1 hammer in city and added defensive bonuses.

Philosphical can be huge, especially with the high food start we have we should really consider some form of teching slingshot with great persons.

More toughts to come later. :)

Steel checking in. Can't talk much though, on my way to work. But, glad to meet all of you!

I say we kick the bejeezus out of the Byzantines, and then the Dutch ... yeah, let's kick the heck out of the Dutch!

What ... this isn't the Civ3 Succession Game of the Month I've signed up for? :shifty:

I am in too...
Pigwill, could you post a roster?

Before getting too far into strategy debates it might be an idea to get a bit more organised as a team. We need a team 'captain' to take the flak from our friendly moderators, keep rosters up to date and generally keep the game moving. Its also theoretically traditional to have a team scribe to write up a game synopsis at the various spoiler points.

I'd be happy to act as captain; I'd be even happier if someone else volunteered!

I'd be happy to act as captain;

:worship: our captain

I'd be even happier if someone else volunteered!

too late :lol:

:agree:
(even when forced to post more than ten characters, I still agree)

About fishing and sailing. Fishing is a must i agree..but id rather have bronze working before sailing as we need to use the food for production (slavery) if we are going to hope to have any fast production at all. Remember food does not get the 50% bonus for buidling workers that hammers will.So if you slave it will be 45 hammers instead of 30. Kinda good bonus.

Also a nice thing about working boats on epic is they are pretty damn nice to use for overflow from slaving :) (Smutz team showed this in the last sgotm)

btw here is a quote from a city growth discussion article on the epic speed :"
2) In epic games the technology speed is still fast enough that it doesn't play the huge role that it will at marathon. Worker-worker-settler is strongly preferred to other build sequences. Trees provide so many hammers that queue swapping is extremely effective, and can be used to put out early warriors, etc. without a large production penalty. You may even want to do a reverse queue swap, putting a warrior in the build queue when you want to get it out quickly and then crediting the overflow to the worker or settler. Remember that the costs are not exact multiples of timber yields, so that you want 200 production going to your second worker+settler, not the 180 you'd get just from cutting four trees (so you will want to have 5 turns of native production applied to units, not growth, to avoid using up too many of your valuable forests.)"

(taken from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154872)

I think bronze pretty soon after fishing will be nice :)

Hey'all,

Tech-wise

After pondering for a couple of minutes, I agree that Fishing should be technology #1 too. I'm a bit of a fan of pumping up the population of cities, so a couple of early Workboats suits my approach rather than stymie population growth with Workers too early. Either Archery or Bronze Working next - we'll almost certainly need something better than Warriors, and it depends upon whether we're happy to gamble on Copper being close.

The Map

What does “Gyathaar-special” mean? I assume it means that they have rolled up a standard map, and then Gyathaar has ‘world builder’-ed it into something whacky? Is this right?

The Roster

I have a ‘sometimes difficult’ personal roster – I can play Civ4 three days a week (Fridays – Sundays) but otherwise it’s not an option (although I can contribute to discussion on the Boards provided I don’t need to check the game itself). Christmas however is coming up, so this won’t be an issue around the end of the year where I’ll be getting some extra time off. Bottom line is that I might have to indulge the roster to either organise the occasional swap with one of you, or otherwise hold up the game for a few days. Sorry about that.

Thanks Pigswill for agreeing to take on the captaincy. :)

Basic SG stuff aka 'ground rules'.

1) Real Life is more important than a game (even Civ).

2) Be nice to each other. No personal comments or criticisms however strongly you feel about someone else's play: keep comments to the game.

3) The more you put in, the more you get from the game.

4) If you can't play your set then let the rest of the team know by posting in the team thread, also helpful if you say when you're next available. If you want to drop out for any reason please post in the thread. Reasons are completely optional.

That's probably all I can think of in terms of ground rules. Comments welcome.

Standard format is 24 hours 'got it', 48 hours play and post. Don't post a got it until you've actually opened the save andsaved it on your machine.

Cam_H is only available weekends. Anyone else got real life restrictions?

I won't be able to play between the 5th and 8th of December - that's the only non-availability I foresee in December.

Can you just spell out the "24h got it, 48h play and post" ? As soon as my turn is up, I have 24h to let you know I'll start playing, right ? And then another 48h to play and post or another 24h to play and post ?

Once the person playing before you in the roster has posted their save and report you have 24 hours to load the save and say you're able to start playing your set by posting a 'got it' message in the thread.
After you've posted 'got it' you then have 48 hours to play your turns and post the save and report from your set.

So, just a bit of availibilty stuff:

I will be much more available Monday through Wendesday, but I can take turns at other times. I just might not be as productive. Also, I will probably (not certainly though) be gone and away from my computer from December 21-24. During that time, I will not be able to play. Also, once January starts, so does school again, and my schedule will change slightly again (to better availibilty on Thursday - Saturday).

I don't mind being scribe, but I don't know a lot of the nifty terms that are often thrown around (such as slingshotting, lightbulbing, or all the other abreviatoins for the techs.), also my spelling can kinda suck sometimes. But, if you don't mind those two things, then I will nominate myself as scribe.

So, just a bit of availibilty stuff:

I will be much more available Monday through Wendesday, but I can take turns at other times. I just might not be as productive. Also, I will probably (not certainly though) be gone and away from my computer from December 21-24. During that time, I will not be able to play. Also, once January starts, so does school again, and my schedule will change slightly again (to better availibilty on Thursday - Saturday).

I don't mind being scribe, but I don't know a lot of the nifty terms that are often thrown around (such as slingshotting, lightbulbing, or all the other abreviatoins for the techs.), also my spelling can kinda suck sometimes. But, if you don't mind those two things, then I will nominate myself as scribe.


everyone is his own scribe as far as I know...
You play your turn, and write your report.
Isn't it so?

In terms of team scribe at a couple of points (eg 500ad, 1700ad) in the game a spoiler thread is opened for teams to report on their progress. The role of the team scribe is to summarise our game for the spoiler thread.

Steel.stiletto: Jargon is unnecesary for summaries (though chances are you'll pick up some of the jargon during thread discussions). I'm not sure if there is a spelling checker available tho that don't matter too much. A willing attitude is all that matters so you've volunteered yourself :thumbsup: :D.

Just contemplating a little more on the roster ... I think that we may need to do a bit of mid-turn consultations in the first round or two, as I suspect that something a bit unusual is planned for this map. I'm not saying that the rostered player should play less, but if there's something weird (like we're trapped behind mountains) we may need a 'pow-wow'.

Captain Pigswill,

What's the turn schedule? 30 on the first two, then 15 from there?

As an aside;

I am also thinking about the value of Stonehenge. With 17 rivals we could end up in a bit of a culture war. Unfortunately Mysticism is not on our 'technology radar', and we are neither Industrious nor seemingly have access to Stone. :undecide:

I said two Work Boats, but maybe there's value in building an extra one or two for exploration? Who knows - we could get a B.C. circumnavigation bonus!

... and it's concerning me that other SGOTM-03 teams are already on their third page of discussion and are posting attachments! What's up there? :dubious:

My initial thoughts on length of turns is that they should be pretty short at the beginning. Maybe stop after the end of each tech discovery, post a screenshot then debate next tech choice depending on whats been uncovered by exploration to that point.

In terms of victory choice its space, diplomacy or diplomation (pseudo diplomatic victory based on conquering enough territory and getting enough pop/vassals to win diplomacy witout needing anyone else's vote). Whichever we go for Isuspect that the first requirement is territory and cities.

Religion is going to be interesting because with all the civs present all the religion fiends will be there so chance of early religion is effectively zero. If we want a religion of our own we'll have to beeline for it, maybe confu or tao. Or else we could simply annex someone's holy city and get a religion that way.

Warlords monarch 2.08 is going to be a tough game (check out WOTM3 for feedback on people's reactions to it!). We can't make specific plans until we know more of the map. We can be sure that if we don't beeline objectives we won't get them and even bee-lining doesn't guarantee success.

Looks like there's a new version of the HoF mod we'll be expected to use.

We don't want a religion of our own.
We want to follow the leading faith.

I'd play "max growth" style, then expand through war (along the coasts to minimize backstabbing possibilities)

About the first turn : I suggest that whoever starts playing first moves the scout. I think E-NE is rather obvious. Any other ideas ? If the scout turns up something exciting, then save and discuss here.
Otherwise, we can decide on the settler : settling in place seems like a very food-rich option. Note that we can't see the tile 2E, also after moving the scout. We could move the settler to find out, but would it change our decision to settle ? Moving the settler eg. NE-NE (or rather E-N and then NE) would give us the forested hills, which seems like a production rich start.
So do we want food or hammers ?
Btw : the current position also seems to provide more money (for beakers).


About navigation : I'd like the movement bonus from circumnavigation, but a galley goes faster than a workboat, and probably we can't do the whole trip without open borders, so I'd like to get our scout in a galley for popping huts (or a warrior for stealing workers...:D ).

Beware!
Stealing workers is a losing move on warlords.
No worker stealing with warriors, unless on a forest hill, with woodsman II...

The game should be kicking off in a couple of days. I'll probably do the honours of getting us started, probably play up to discovery of fishing then hand over to Cam_H for the weekend, then steel.stiletto for early part of the week.
I'd rather start slow with lots of discussion than rush through to 2000bc and then review.
Scout e-ne sounds a good start. First question is whether we're on a small island or the tip of a peninsula.

Due to me doing very bad on some school results ive decided to impose a zero gaming policy for a while, until my grades have improved and my focus on school has been adequate. IM sorry but i wont be able to play in this sgotm. Sorry guys!

Willburn,

Thanks for letting us know ... and best of luck with your grades! :)

Good luck Wilburn. Thanks for letting us know. SGOTM4 is only three months away.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt10000.jpg

Settler still to move. Thoughts?:confused:

Hmmm... some thoughts :
- I wouldn't move up north with the settler : that would take 3 turns to settle and not bring much new. The stone is not needed right away.
- Keeping our first city in the south may also leave more space for a second city north.
- does settling on floodplains hurt our health ? We could consider moving E-E, which is not a floodplain-tile and gives us two different resources in reach in stead of two clams. We loose one spice, though, and one turn.
- seems like our capital will be food-rich, while a second city could focus on production.

PS. Good luck, Willburn !

I'm with Ambiorix in that the two-to-the-East move seems to be advantageous - and Fish are better than Clams too.

It's hard to tell if the proposed tile has access to fresh water.

The eastern coastal jungle-hill looks good for a second site already!

a second city where the scout stands would be good, and settling in place

Settle in place and city#2 on scout hill would give us the fish and stone in city#2 plus 2 clams, 2 spice in city#1.

Going 2 east loses us a spice, 2 forests and a clam and gains us fish and flood plain and whatever's hiding in the darkness. Could then build city#2 on the stone.

I could move settler 1 east to see what's there, then make a decision on 2e or starting point, it would mean losing a turn. Whadja think?

Hold on - I just noticed the fish is not on a coastal square. Will we be able to 'net' it even if it's within our borders ?
If not, then we should stay put I think.
If yes, then I vote for going east, based on the extra food being more important than health from forest - but that's just an opinion.
If nobody knows then I vote for staying put. :ack:

settling in place also allows us to own the "canal" to the western landmass
If we settle in place, we lose a FP,
If we settle 2 east, we lose a turn and 1 seafood.

Since we're not going religious, losing 1 turn isn't a big deal. But the floodplains could be meaningful.
I'd still settle in place, while teching to fishing and building a warrior.

Looking at the map again there are coastal tiles east and south of the fish so 2e would give us coastal/culture bridge to unknown eastern island.

Played my first set (9 turns!). Went 1east with settler, saw spice 2east and moved back to starting point. Settled next turn Working floodplain while building warrior, researching fishing and exploring took the other eight turns.
We've now got fishing.

Next tech? AI recommends BW.

Change build to WB (workboat) or finish warrior?

Dot-mapping challenge?

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt20000.jpg

Slightly closer so you can see yields:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt30000.jpg


Cam-H is UP (play up to c 20 turns? Post screenshot and await discussion after next tech discovered?).

steel.stiletto is on deck.

Ambiorix and cabert any preferences on order?

Save on SGOTM results page.

Suggestion : our third city could go 7N of the capitol, and the second one on the eastern jungle (only rice overlaps with third city) or a bit below on the forest hill (two tiles overlap with capitol).

I'd build a workboat before finishing the warrior.
Techwise : what are our priorities ? I'd say a) get a boat in the water, preferably with our scout on it and b) get a settler out.

I can play this weekend or next weekend, but not in between. So cabert first ?

What ... you play nine turns and I'm up for twenty?

I am going to go with the Workboat unless I'm told otherwise.

Talking point;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/sgotm3_earlydot.jpg

Save on SGOTM results page.

I'm male. I can't find it. Could you show it to me. Found it! (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) ... and we're winning! :)

(Just wait until I try to install the HoF mod ... huh? what? dunno? etc. etc.)

i was doing a dotmap and it looks exactly like cam's.
Only gem city (Z) to the north is one tile south in my version (to get 3 gems!)

I think we need food to build settlers fast (it's a crowded map, right?)
About order, I'd like to play after stiletto, if possible.

My, what pretty colours.

What about next tech?
Sailing to explore?
Bronze for chopping/whipping (and hope we have copper)?
Archery (fall back defense)?
Anything else?

My, what pretty colours.

What about next tech?
Sailing to explore?
Bronze for chopping/whipping (and hope we have copper)?
Archery (fall back defense)?
Anything else?

bronze, then iron
It's full of jungle here

Oh shoot :shifty: - I've already played and didn't go for Bronze ...

I supported the proposal that we pursue Fishing out of the gate, but could see that the second technology could have been one for considerable debate with compelling reasoning going in several directions.

I opted for Sailing. I suspected that we would be alone on the island – later proved to be right, and I acknowledged Ambiorix’s suggestion that we “get a boat in the water, preferably with our scout on it.”

I continued to work the floodplains until the population grew to two, where I could then emphasise :hammers: to get the first Workboat finished.

The Scout was to run into a pride of Lions that was defeated flawlessly.

In 3520BC Hinduism was founded in a distant land.

By 3310BC the Workboat was launched and the closest Clams were harvested.

Sailing comes in at 3220BC, and the game is saved (played 25 16 fairly uneventful turns). I’ve selected Masonry, but the next player can switch to the technology of their choice. I am working the Clams and a floodplains tile to boost the population – but likewise this may be adjusted. OMG – what have I done to our comparative score with other teams? I suspect many have Moscow with a population of three.

Our island home;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/island3220BC.jpg

Load available from here ( http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php).

looking at the new map, cam's initial dotmap fits perfectly
another city with rice clams and 2 gems is possible. and 2 others
one overlapping rice clam city, with fish and more gems.
Did you notice that there is only one source of fresh water on our island?

something else comes to mind : if any area gets settled by Barbarians, we're stuck with their urban planning ! :eek:
We'll have to do some fogbusting I think...

I'm wondering if we should just go for rexing the island; not only do we have barbs to think about but eighteen civs on a standard map means serious competition for territory.

Techwise I'd think about bronzeworking next, chopping and whipping will be useful to speed expansion. If no copper on the island then probably I'd go for archery after BW.

Ambiorix: do you have time for a twenty turn set? If so you'll be up next then steel.stiletto followed by cabert.

I can play sunday morning (about 12h from this post). :sleep:
Before I start : what would be the desired build sequence ?
Worker before settler ? troops first ? Or that galley, since we have sailing ? Or something else ??
(and what does rexing mean ?)
Any other advise before I dive in ? :scan:

I can play sunday morning (about 12h from this post). :sleep:
Before I start : what would be the desired build sequence ?
Worker before settler ? troops first ? Or that galley, since we have sailing ? Or something else ??
(and what does rexing mean ?)
Any other advise before I dive in ? :scan:

build settlers!
galleys can travel settlers too
and we need IW

Rex, short for rapid expansion. Focus on settlers and warriors/archers for garrison. After workboat might be worth building a warrior to let city grow a bit more. If we're going for bronze-working as next tech then worker after warrior to chop some trees for settler(s).

So, I do believe that I'm up. I don't have it yet (I have it now, so this is my GOT IT!), but let me just make sure that I know what I should be doing.

Intended plan:
Research BW
Build a settler
Start a warrior after settler?

Is it really safe to send out an unprotected settler? Or do we have an extra warrior, and I just don't know it? Also, I like the idea of the next city being the one directly north of our position. With a bit of a cultural boost, it can even fogbust the other side of our island a bit (I think).

--EDIT--
Just noticed that we are just two turns away from growth to population three. I am pretty sure that I should just wait for that before I start the settler at least. Right?

There's a partially built Warrior in Moscow's queue. I shoved in the Work Boat as soon as we got Fishing, but he should be about five or six turns away if you work the :hammers:-heavy tiles.

The Scout is our only unit - currently he's in the north section of the island but I was bringing him back for fogbusting.

Cabert makes an excellent point about the lack of fresh water on the island - cities without food resources will grow very slowly. I'm not sure if we shouldn't consider a chain irrigation plan (?).

After Bronze Working, should we think about whipping out a Galley?

Sorry to sound stupid, but what exactly is the point of fresh water? Remember, I normally play at a pretty low level.

Fresh water is needed to irrigate a tile. Fresh water is accessable to most flatland tiles next to fresh water lakes, rivers, and oasis tiles.

You can build farms on select special resources (Corn, Wheat, Rice) but access to fresh water / irrigation will give them an extra :food:.

Farms on non-resourced tiles (e.g. Grassland, Plains) must have access to fresh water / irrigation. Therefore in the early game (non-resource) farms can only be built next to lakes, rivers, and oasis tiles.

Civil Service allows for chain irrigation - connecting irrigation, so rather than (non resource) farms needing to be next to lakes, rivers, or oasis tiles, they can also be irrigated by being connected to an already irrigated farm. That is, an irrigated farm becomes a fresh water source.

Biology allows you to build a farm (on many flatland tiles) without the need to chain irrigate.

Cabert has identified that we only have two rivers - one near Moscow, and another slightly north. We can't irrigate on the left hand side of the island after Civil Service (and before Biology) as we hit hills in the north that can't be irrigated and therefore any irrigation chain will stop there. We can build a farm on the Rice resource, but we can't irrigate it with fresh water. Future cites on the left hand hand side of the island without access to a food resource will grow only slowly and must concentrate on tiles that give 2:food: such as cottaged grasslands and Lighthouse-supported coastal and ocean squares.

... but let me just make sure that I know what I should be doing.

Intended plan:
Research BW
Build a settler
Start a warrior after settler?

Is it really safe to send out an unprotected settler? Or do we have an extra warrior, and I just don't know it? Also, I like the idea of the next city being the one directly north of our position. With a bit of a cultural boost, it can even fogbust the other side of our island a bit (I think).

--EDIT--
Just noticed that we are just two turns away from growth to population three. I am pretty sure that I should just wait for that before I start the settler at least. Right?

If it were me, I'd get the population to three before a Worker or Settler is queued. Whether you feel :hammers: should go to a Warrior or a Workboat is your call, although I don't think either is a really awful choice maybe finishing the Warrior would be better. Tech-wise, Bronze Working does seem to be popular in the group! After Moscow grows to three, it's your call to finish the Warrior, go with a Settler, or go with a Worker. At the moment we have few Worker technologies of much use though.

steel.stiletto: if you play up to the discovery of bronze working then hand over to Ambiorix.
I'd certainly advise completing the warrior and get city up to size3 when we can work clams, floodplain and forest/silk tile (1f,2h,1c). If we build a worker we get 3 bonus hammers from expansive trait =6f/6h so worker builds in 8 turns (90 hammers) and can then chop forests for +30h in 5 turns towards a settler. On the other hand we can generally only chop forests once so might be better to save them for later.
If we build a settler straight away (i.e. after warrior) we get 6f/3h for settler (150h on epic) which will take 13 turns to build and thus get settler out faster so starting to develop second city earlier but we won't have the worker.
My personal inclination would be to build a settler first but other people in the team could argue for worker first. You could also build a workboat while growing to size4, then switch to settler so you could whip 90 hammers towards the settler after we make civics change to slavery. As you can see its getting complicated so whatever you decide to do you can justify it.If this is giving you a headache then just follow your instinct.

While fresh water will become a problem later its really not something to worry about at present particularly because expansive gives you a heath bonus anyway (which is the other benefit of fresh water).

Edit: I've kind of noticed that I'm not really running a very strict roster. I'm trying to be flexible to give everyone a chance to fit in some turns at the beginning. The downside is that its a bit confusing. If anyone (e.g. Ambiorix and steel.stiletto) feels they're being messed about then speak up and I'll try to keep the roster more rigid.

Don't worry Pigswill, I'm fine. The only thing is that I'm travelling for work next week, so I can either play today or next Saturday. So, steel.stiletto : let me know if you finish today !

But where is steel.stiletto?

Edit: twenty four hours later and still no sign, no response to the pm I sent so I'm afraid that steel.stiletto is skipped. Cabert is UP to play from Cam's save (post 44).

Oh gosh guys, I'm so sorry about posting so late. I have no good excuse but just plain busy-ness. I started my turn set at the beginning by letting the city grow to three, then started a settler. I also switched techs at the very beginning to bronze working. Our scout I just had wander around. He got into a fight with a panther, but came out victorious. He now has enough experience to level up, but I didn't know what would be the wise choice to choose, so I didn't use the upgrade yet. There is a lion nearby though, but since I didn't want to risk him dieing, I never left him in a position that he could be attacked in. I most recently got him on the hill, and was going to have him fortify and see if he was attacked, but that's for the next player to do.

We now have bw, and I set the next tech to be archery, although it's not to late to change it at all. Also, I didn't set us to slavery, although I assumed that we would. The next player can do that.

Four or five more turns till the settler!

OK ... sounds like a good turn set. :) We still have our Scout!

No Copper I assume? Sorry, but I'm unable to access file as I'm at work for the next couple of days and several hundred kilometres from my Civ discs.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt30001.jpg

So we have copper on the island. Its a long way to walk but a short boat trip. I only opened the save to get a screenshot so didn't study in any detail at all. Maybe send settler to stone hill as previously discussed then grow capital while building a warrior, galley,settler. Maybe stone hill go for workboat/ warrior.
Techwise archery sounds ok or maybe IW.
We've only got one cow on the island so do we got for AH soon on the off chance we have horses?
We also need to remember that new cities won't grow without culture.
It can't be that long before the first barbarians appear.

Edit: on reflection is it worth interrupting settler build to get galley and warrior and made copper city the first city we settle? It delays getting a second city but increases our chance of settling copper before barbs or AI beat us to it and gives us both ends of the island to expand from. Also gets us galley slightly earlier to go exploring.

Cabert is UP to play from save on results page.
Ambiorix is on deck (but probably won't be able to play before Saturday).

give me a few advice and i'll play tonight (although i should sleep, I really need to!)

got it, but don't know what to do :
Galley is long to build if we don't whip, and we have no worker to chop the forest (boohoo) where i want to send the settler too...

No advice, so followed my own mood.

turn 0: revolt to slavery

turn 1: move the scout to what i thought was a better fogbusting place, but it's not. IW is 28 turns! no way! archery in 8 is much better. I whip another work boat.

turn 2 : I move the scout to a better fogbusting tile, too late already a lion there. I promote him to woodsman for better survival chances. Workboat goes to clam, overflow goes to settler. CTD :cry:
I go back to autosave from 2680BC. Let's hope it's the same turn :mischief:
Hum:blush: , no it was the turn before.
Well, I replay the same 2 turns :(.

Turn 3 : fishing nets on 2nd clams. Settler due in 6. I got for it.
between turns our scout defeats the lion.

turn 4: zzzzz
turn 5 : zzzzzz (i hate slow speeds)
turn 6: zzzzz (Am I really playing a game???)

turn 7: we are not one of the biggest civilization on earth...
scout is healed (wow, something happened)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/74263/Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

turn 8: settler! I move him to the stone site, while moscow starts the next work boat.

turn 9: settler moving, archery in, I start teching to the wheel.

turn 10 : St Petersburg founded on stony fish site. I start an archer. I move the scout to a better fogbusting place.

Turn 11 : trade route in moscow and St Petersburg :). I move the scout to a better fogbusting place.

turn 12: I fortify the scout.

turn 13 : Moscow is back to size 3.

turn 14 : zzzzzz

turn 15 : I whip another workboat in moscow.

turn 16 : I move the workboat to st petersburg and start a lighthouse in Moscow (to let the city grow before going for another settler)

turn 17 : workboat moving. cities growing.

turn 18 : wheel in, teching to pottery (we need writing and libraries! we're philo and have seafood everywhere!). workboat moving, cities growing.

turn 19 : moscow back to size 3. another clam in st petersburg. I let it grow a little more, whipping a worker (50% bonus!) could be good now, but costs 2 pop = better wait for size 4 (and letting unhappiness wear out).

turn 20 : archer! We have a fight competent unit! wow! fireworks and such should be fired... I move the guy to the north (more fogbusting).

Is my turnset over already?
Strange... So little happened...
I'm not sure i didn't play 21 turns. (from my record, it looks like unhappiness from the whipwas only 14 turns, which isn't right. I probably pressed enter somewhere in a zzzzz turn, and didn't take note... The autolog didn't give me the answer).

I just noticed that I moved our archer in this last turn. Not very polite for the next player, sorry.
THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Trash_Team_SG003_BC2080_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Yes - isolated on Epic speed sure is fun! ;) Great turnset Cabert! :goodjob:

What's our thinking on the Stone and Masonry? I'm the last person to get Wonder obsessed, but I'd be interested to know what you guys (any gals?) think.

In terms of research I'm not sure that writing is a huge priority atm though it will be soon. Reason is that I think we need to expand and explore which means settlers, archers, workboats and galleys with libraries down the build list. if we ain't going to build a library for twenty or thirty turns we don't need writing (except of course for open borders). We've got stone city so do we go for stonehenge (mysticism and masonry)? I'd still like to get copper city settled soon.

I'm very pleased about the Settler not getting eaten by wildlife (I was expecting it given my Civ luck of late).

I would really hate to leave the Galley for too many rounds further.

Not being Wonder obsessed 'and everything' - can I mention The Great Lighthouse yet? :shifty:

By the way - we're relatively much more powerful than any of the other SGOTM-3 Warlords competitors! :)

if we go for a wonder let's take the GLighthouse.
Stonehenge? if it's still there when we have masonry and mysticism, take it. But I wouldn't (and didn't!) move out of my path for it.
A library is very cheap, if you chop it and whip it :) + we need some culture.

Been thinking about the roster. Ambiorix and Cam_H are only available weekends, steel.stiletto prefers early week (Mon-Wed); cabert and I are available during the week afaik. So how about:
Ambiorix (weekend)
steel.stiletto (mon-wed)
pigswill (half set, thurs-fri)
Cam-H (weekend)
cabert (mon-wed)
pigswill (half-set thurs-fri).

Hopefully this would fit in ok with real-life and keep the game moving at the same time.

I don't understand your roster, sorry.
Who's next normally?

It should be ambiorix, who was skipped, but he is not there before saturday.
That would mean that you, pigswill, are up. Then (if you play fast), it would be cam_h to play on his saturday (which is everybody else's friday ;)).
I know Cam could play this in a few hours and (launch us into space errr, not yet) give it to ambiorix on his saturday.

It very much depends on playing speed from every one.
Personnaly I can play any day (but not every day) if it's not too long.
Which brings me on the next question :
Do we go with 15 turns from now on?

About strategy, I think we need to discuss a bit more here.
It's not a domination game. It's diplomacy or space.
Meaning we don't need an early rush, we need a good tech pace.
For a philo leader, a good tech pace is better obtained by GScientists + tech trade.

That why we need :
- writing to build libraries
- to settle our island + nearby islands (fogbusting before it is done can be managed by a handful of low power units, like scout or archer)
- alphabet for tech trade
- lighthouses for better seafood (+great ligthouse is really the best we can build on this map!)
- cheap granaries for better whipping

I'm very pleased about the Settler not getting eaten by wildlife (I was expecting it given my Civ luck of late).

I was fogbusting more than 4 tiles away from the settler's path, so no gamble here.
(I'm not a lucky guy)


I would really hate to leave the Galley for too many rounds further.
Why?

Not being Wonder obsessed 'and everything' - can I mention The Great Lighthouse yet? :shifty:

already answered (positively!) above :)
By the way - we're relatively much more powerful than any of the other SGOTM-3 Warlords competitors! :)
That's from just 1 archer :lol: (plus 2 cities, 1 fast growing, + wheel, + BW)

The Great Lighthouse! Great idea! :)

On the roster - I'm very relaxed, so if it hits while I can't play, I'm happy to take 'a rain cheque'.

Please also note that I have long weekends, so it's roughly Thursday - Saturday for most of you guys (and gal{s}?). Christmas will also free up some time.

Agree on Ambiorix to play as soon as possible.

I do like the technology-to-technology stop-and-talk that we've gone with so far, although soon our tech's will take longer, and we will need to discuss broader objectives (e.g. slingshots) - so I'd say 15 (or 20?) from then.

Re. Galley : I'd like to make contact at some point soon - especially if Alphabet is on the cards.

Re. Victory : I've thought a bit about it, and I like Domiplomacy Diplomation ... having a lot of votes.

Re. PowerChart : 'Yes' ... all credit to you Cabert for that Archer. I think he deserves a name.

Re roster. So far we've played:
pigswill, 9 turns
Cam_H 16 turns
steel.stiletto 13 turns (?)
cabert 21 turns.
Ambiorix: not yet played.

So yes, Ambiorix is due to play next. I was going to pinch a few turns before Ambiorix but equally happy not to, particularly as it seems we have some strategy issues to discuss and resolve.So let's got for:
Ambiorix UP
Pigswill On Deck
Cam-H
steel.stiletto
cabert

15 turns per set.

Re roster. So far we've played:
pigswill, 9 turns
Cam_H 16 turns
steel.stiletto 13 turns (?)
cabert 21 turns.
Ambiorix: not yet played.

So yes, Ambiorix is due to play next. I was going to pinch a few turns before Ambiorix but equally happy not to, particularly as it seems we have some strategy issues to discuss and resolve.So let's got for:
Ambiorix UP
Pigswill On Deck
Cam-H
steel.stiletto
cabert

15 turns per set.

WOW, i played double rate????
sorry about that :blush:
I took the game on turn 43, so the total here isn't right...

In terms of strategy my limited experience on 2.08 monarch is that its at least as difficult as vanilla emperor and much tougher than vanilla monarch. If we don't expand and build an army we'll fall behind very quickly.
To build a decent army we need metal(s) and/or horses.

With 18 civs we're competing against the tech fiends for a tech lead, the religious fanatics for religions and the aggressive civs for survival.

Long term the name of the game is diplomacy (?diplomation) or space. In the immediate future its about keeping up.

In terms of teching what about we aim for philosophy via GS slingshot (meditation,CoL, writing for library to produce the GS (philosophical helps here)) and explore so we have a choice of civs to trade philosophy with (picking up alphabet as our first trade obviously)?

Edit. cabert: in terms of turn count its not that big a deal, steel.stiletto didn't post a turn count, maybe Cam_H and I played a few more turns than we thought.

we have an island for us alone = relax ;)

Fear not ... I've won a game on vanilla Emperor. :D

Lost (or gave up in disgust) seven though. :(


maybe Cam_H and I played a few more turns than we thought.
Can't count - can't spell - at least we Australians can play cricket! Hang on ... where's Berkshire?

about win/lose ratio on warlords monarch, i'm about 6 lost 1 win too, but it's 6 times the same game I lost before finally winning it! :lol:

Cam_H: Where's Australia? Is it that penal colony off the coast of New Zealand? Cricket? Isn't that some kind of grasshopper?

Back to the game: traditionally SGs are more succesful than solo games probably because of the improved mm as well as the discussions on strategy and tactics. So we'll see what happens.

Oh ... I'm highly confident we've got this game in the bag. We've got an Archer for Christ's sake! 'Tis but a shoe-in!

Oh ... I'm highly confident we've got this game in the bag. We've got an Archer for Christ's sake! 'Tis but a shoe-in!

:lol:

on a more serious note, we need to fogbust this entire island!
We have 2 cities fogbusting SE and 2 units. One is in place to fogbust NE, the other shall move to the NW and do the rest... what more do we need?
I'd say 2 more units and we're done, or 1 more city + 1 more unit.

I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT A BARBARIAN!

A few thoughts:
We're philo and expansive.
How are we going to leverage those traits?

In my opinion, we'll have better results with scientists than with any other Great People.
If we try to get the earliest possible biology (860AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192940&page=3)would be great but we didn't even start on oracle teching).
The other trait is leverage by poprushing granaries asap, then abusing the whip (workers!), and the +2 health will make the no "fresh water on this island" a lesser problem.

Well either Pigswill or Ambiorix better take this game soon ... or I'll hold our own Archer to ransom!

One more city ... maybe two :mischief: and a Galley f.c.s. would be nice. 3 turns, think one of you two could manage that? ;)

Well either Pigswill or Ambiorix better take this game soon ... or I'll hold our own Archer to ransom!

One more city ... maybe two :mischief: and a Galley f.c.s. would be nice. 3 turns, think one of you two could manage that? ;)

sure, we need to fill this island, but fogbusting with units early is really necessary.
And the scout should be fogbusting in a "no combat" zone, while the archer will move in front to take any strike we have to face. Don't let those barbs build on the copper.
I edited my previous post. What do you think of the leveraging strats I propose?

I'm a big fan of the whip - so no problem there. 50% bonus on Workers - yes please, but Iron Working would be 'aces'.

If we miss The Great Lighthouse ... I swear I'll :wallbash: - but we need (a.) Masonry, and (b.) minimum another city.

'Yes' to the Library in any city with food surplus - that will need Writing.

I'm still awfully keen on the Galley with a Scout b.t.w.

So - we need two Workers, one Settler, one Archer, one Galley, and head towards Writing and Iron Working and Masonry ... and that's our immediate needs!

Iron working will be "cheaper" after we cottaged up Moscow.

Let's go writing for now, and build a lighthouse in moscow to leverage the 2 clams. After we reach size 4, we could whip a worker after 1 just turn of work on it, then go back to lighthouse while growing back.

St Petersburg should build (whip!) another archer very soon, then go for granary (whip!) and library (whip!), then lighthouse too (whip!).
How long should this take?
2/3 turns for archer n°2, then 15 for granary, then 15 for library or lighthouse, then...

I'd say each of us should whip each city once in his turnset :).

All this seems very imperative, but it's only my point of view.
Don't be afraid to say otherwise, team.

You know I think that a lot of this is because we're not used to Epic. So many turns ... such little progress! :shake:

You know I think that a lot of this is because we're not used to Epic. So many turns ... such little progress! :shake:

yep, but 28 turns for IW really was too far.
It should be down a little now that we have a little more commerce. 2 more clams worked, 2 coins for trade routes, 90% instead of 100% makes a grand total of (theory, not game checked)
BEFORE my turnset
13 commerce
13 beakers
One prereq
=>28 turns

AFTER
17 commerce
15,3 beakers
One prereq
Maybe someone out there knows it already?
=> 24 turns...

still a too long time IMHO
Maybe after cottaging moscow's flood plain...

First cabert moans about the incomprehensible roster,so I fix that. Then Cam_H moans about the lack of progress. Goodness me, what a miserable crew!

Seriously the start of the game is always slow. We're not whizzing through by playing long turn-sets so we have time to discuss options and begin to devise a strategy. Yes, it does make for slow progress but getting a solid start is more important imo than getting a quick start and saying 'if only we'd done so and so' later in the game.

First cabert moans about the incomprehensible roster,so I fix that. Then Cam_H moans about the lack of progress. Goodness me, what a miserable crew!

Seriously the start of the game is always slow. We're not whizzing through by playing long turn-sets so we have time to discuss options and begin to devise a strategy. Yes, it does make for slow progress but getting a solid start is more important imo than getting a quick start and saying 'if only we'd done so and so' later in the game.

:goodjob:
I'm just a bit bored today.
Don't be upset, you're a fine captain and the game is going on well IMHO.
It's just ... slow...
What do you think of my leveraging options?
Any better ideas?

Lighthouse in Moscow would surely increase our food supply (and incidentally set us up for Glight). If we're building settler, two workers, at least one archer and a galley that's going to take a number of turns before we think about building a library.
We have to consider that the longer we leave Glight the bigger the chance of losing it. On the other hand I'd rather have metals than Glight (or horses at a pinch so we can capture metals).
So in terms of immediate techs I'd like us to go for AH after pottery, then writing, then debate whether we go for copper city before or after we go for Glight. So build wise that would mean workers, galley and archer(s) before settler.

do you plan to go to war early?
with whom?

Its a big and hostile world out there in the darkness. We have a very nice island but it won't be big enough to win us the game. I think it will probably make sense to think about warring early (once we've found someone to kill) before diplomacy gets too enmeshed. (Though not before we've made an attempt at building the Great Lighthouse).

I don't think we can go to war early because :
1) it takes a lot of ships + troops, and we're not very high on hammers
2) There is no visible neighbour yet.

Cam is insisting on a galley.
That would be a first step in the war direction.

About tech, i'd say finish pottery (granaries!) then go AH, then writing or IWorking, depending on what the galley found.
Is this "not straight to writing" plan ok for you?

Just letting everybody know that I'm in reach of an Internet connection again. I'll play and post on Saturday. (I haven't downloaded the save yet, so I can't say the magical "got it" words yet).
First I'll do some reading up...

For what it's worth, my thoughts are (and I'm not being dictatorial here - do what you want!) :) ;

I really think that after Pottery we need Masonry for a start on The Great Lighthouse and get that Stone Quarry up, but there's some time up our sleeves because of the prerequisite build of a Lighthouse. I am swayed by Cabert's push for Writing as a technology of priority.

Build-wise, I propose;

St. Petersburg : Galley > Lighthouse > The Great Lighthouse > Granary

Moscow : Lighthouse (Whip) > Worker > (Chop) Settler (with the Archer moving anti-clockwise to fog-bust) alternating with Granary (allow growth as whip-weariness wears off) with Archer (Overcome "We fear for our safety")

I'm happy to have these debated or disagreed with.

Okay, I've got it.
I'm leaning towards Cabert's suggestions for St. Petersburg and Cam_H's suggestions for Moscow. I'll prioritise Writing or Masonry (after Pottery) depending on the timing of the builds.
I'll play 15 to 20 turns, depending on where it makes most sense to stop, if that's okay.

If you are going for the whip in Moscow - take the citizen off the Spice Forest and stick them on the Floodplains to save a couple of turns.

Still arguing for military and expansion. However I can sense a builder consensus developing. I'd compromise on pottery, AH, masonry, writing for tech path. Buildwise we only need one lighthouse for the wonder, probably in st pete's. Do we need another workboat first? I seem to recall St Pete having both fish and clams. We need at least one worker soon to start chopping. At least another archer, maybe two. Little point having a library until we have the spare population for scientists so that could wait.
Moscow now size 3? grow to size 4, better off with an archer at the moment than a lighthouse imo (or maybe a workboat if needed for st pete). Maybe go for whip workboat, overflow to worker, build/whip archer, overflow to worker routine. Then maybe a galley?
St Pete set to grow and build lighthouse while growing. Worker can chop or mine while waiting for masonry then quarry and start on great lighthouse.

St. Petersburg needs a border pop for access to the Fish. With the Quarry and the hills it should in time be a good :hammers: base while Moscow is :food: rich and will be :commerce: rich down the track.

Moscow's still suffering from whip weariness and lack of military protection unhappiness. As before, I'd push the population to four, whip out the Lighthouse, and then look at a Worker, or a Warrior (quicker) / Archer (more useful) to off-set "Fear for our safety" penalty. The Worker to chop out the next Settler.

Even though Moscow will have a Lighthouse, I think that St. Petersburg is the right home for The Great Lighthouse. We can also use lilnev's 'whip into Wonder tactic' (build most of a unit and whip it out with the overflow going to the Wonder at 100%).

Personally I'm still keen on getting a Galley because 'who knows' what kind of strange map that we're working with. On a normal random map, maybe not so much of a priority - but there may be massive rewards for early exploration.

I'm still not sure what's the thinking on settling near the Copper next versus settling in an anti-clockwise direction (?).

My thinking on copper city rather than settling anti-clockwise is that 18 civs on a standard map is very crowded. On monarch 2.08 AIs tech fairly fast.
I reckon it won't be very long before galleys (with settler and archer) start turning up at our island. I'd rather fight off trespassers with axes or chariots than rely on archers or wait for cats.

2880BC (turn 0) : move Moscovit from spice to floodplain for faster growth.
2050BC (turn 1) : moving archer and scout counter-clockwise
2020BC (turn 2) : more of the same...
1990BC (turn 3) : and more...
1960BC (turn 4) : guess...
1930BC (turn 5) : uh-oh ! Scout meets barb (I was expecting animals...).
Moscow and St Petersburg have grown and whip a lighthouse and archer.
1900BC (turn 6) : the barb defeats our scout - sorry guys :( . Moscow starts worker, StP starts lighthouse for one turn and switches to granary next turn.
1870BC (turn 7) : we get Pottery. Masonry is 8 turns, Writing 13, IW 22 - decide to take masonry. StP starts granary.
1840BC (turn 8) : our wandering scout sees yellow borders to the north ! See screenshot.
1810BC (turn 9) : archer to hill and we meet Hatshepsut :egypt: (second screenshot) ! Years of peace strengthen our friendship (+1), but she remains cautious. The fish-tile in her cultural border is ocean, but I suppose she can navigate there anyway, right ? That means a galley of hers could reach our island...
1780BC (turn 10) : rumour has it that Judaism is founded somewhere.
1750BC (turn 11) : nothing happens
1720BC (turn 12) : Moscow builds worker, starts on settler
1690BC (turn 13) : Worker starts chopping. Moscow borders expand.
1660BC (turn 14) : nothing happens.

Here's the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Trash_Team_SG003_BC1660_01.CivWarlordsSave).

Some thoughts : masonry will be discovered the next turn. With Egypt in the picture I'm more inclined to get AH next - if only to know whether we're leaving horses for grabs in the north (wouldn't want Egypt to take those).
Moscow is 15 turns away from a settler, but the worker will chop off a couple of turns.
St. Petersburg is 8 turns away from a granary and could whip it. After that (or maybe even before ?) we'll need a galley to transport our settler to the copper site. I do think settling on the copper tile is the highest priority. The settler will need support from an archer since at least one barb is wonderng on the west side of the island. (One archer is already close).

By the way, I see our score is increasing much faster than Hatshepsut's. And compared with the other Warlords teams, we're incredibly strong...

Ambiorix - pleased to see we're doing well against the competition! Masonry next turn :thumbsup:!

Steel Stiletto - seems like you're up according to Pigswill's interesting roster.

If you had the inclination to get Lighthouse > The Great Lighthouse built in St. Petersburg, I wouldn't complain. ;)

Just keep in mind we're building a settler in Moscow. Not building a galley (in either city) implies we're going for a third city to the north ! IF we want to settle the copper, we need a galley...

I know ... I know ...

... it's this Epic game speed ...

... it's killing me!

... I want it all and I want it now! :cry:

Roster (check post 71 after cabert posted :confused: :confused: ).

Pigswill UP
Cam_H on deck
steel.stiletto
cabert
Ambiorix

15 turns per set.

Got it!
Looking at it. Moscow will take 12 turns for a settler (including one chop). AH will take another 13 turns to complete. If St Pete started a galley now it would take 19 turns (less with quarry and a chop). If we whipped St Pete's granary now we could start on galley while SP regrew to pop2. We could wait for granary to be one turn from completion getting bigger overflow into galley, cutting down on unhappy time and growing SP a bit before whipping. Research wise I prefer AH to writing because we don't need writing for anything at the moment (but will do soon).
I'm thinking we get city 3 established on either copper or horses (if available) first then Moscow goes for library and scientists, SP goes for Glight and new city builds some units.

I didn't check the gam but:
- AH before writing is cool (AH is a rereq of writing)
- dont chop too much for settlers before mathematics, i'd rather whip for settlers/workers/building and chop for wonders. Why? because there is a really high penalty for wonder whipping.
- There are good tiles to improve, this is priority IMHO over chopping.
- galley is cool in st pertersburg.
- we need the library in stpertersburg!

My recollection is that St Petersburg is the one with the hills and quarry which are low food tiles while Moscow has much more spare food so its much easier for moscow to support specialists and cottages (and all that spice as well).
Edit: there's also the whip overflow trick for wonders but I agree that chopping after maths is much better for wonders (especially stone wonders) but then St Petersburg has much better natural production anyway.

1630bc. Discover masonry, research AH (12 turns).

1570. Copper archer defeats barb warrior :goodjob:

1510. Alex moves in next door:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt-c0000.jpg

1480bc. A mysterious purple neighbour...
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt-d0000.jpg

1450bc. Whipped slaves = completed gramary in St Petersburg.
Oracle has been built in a distant land...

1360. Whipped slaves = rushed galley in St Petersburg. Potential misery for several turns.

1330bc. Hatty trades a cow for a clam (yes, we've got a cow but we can cancel the deal later).
St Petersburg completes galley and starts a lighthouse.
Moscow completes settler and starts an archer.
Galley moves to pick up settler.

1300bc. galley collects settler.
Stonehenge has been built in a distant land.

1270bc. Animal Husbandry discovered, research writing (11 turns). Yes, we have horses :)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt-e0000.jpg

1210 Settler arrives near copper and horses. Where to settle the city? Do we claim the fish and miss gems or claim the gems and miss the fish?(fish could probably be used by another city). A question for team discussion:
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/pigswill-2006/tt-f0000.jpg

Cam_H is UP (but probably won't be able to play until Thursday). Do we want to complicate the roster (further) and fit in a couple of quick sets before Cam_H?

Save available on Score Page

I've got it. I'll get on with it. :)

Oh! I can see the conundrum ... no food ... or if we try for the Fish we need a border pop and miss the Gems, but at least we secure off the tail of our massive continent.

At the moment I like the Fish + border pop option.

Shame about the Wonders! :(

Where to settle the city?
I vote for settling on the copper hill (in the assumption that gives us copper right away). The fish can be used by a city further north (as indicated in an earlier dot-map).

With neighbours all around us, and landmasses running more or less in parrallel, I'm starting to think this map is like a maze thing : concentric circles, or spirals or something... :hmm:

For the city, I think that we should go like Ambiorix suggested, with the copper hill. That leaves the fish to possibly go with the city that gets the rice, making it a very population happy city (I think?), and it gives us copper now.

1200BC to 880BC

Pre-turn : All looking good.

1180BC (1)

Move the Worker towards the Floodplains near Moscow for Cottaging.
As per instructions and uncertainty on my account, moved Settler to Copper Hill.
Moved western Archer into Jungle for fogbusting.

1150BC (2)

Founded Novgorod on the Copper and commenced on an Axeman.
The Galley moves to the lavender borders and we meet Gandhi. He’s in Organised Religion and is the founder of Hinduism.
The Worker near Moscow begins the Cottage.

1120BC (3)

The Archer in the west defeats a Barbarian Warrior, and decides to heal in Novgorad. He’s up for a promotion.

1090BC (4)

Zzzz.

1060BC (5)

Meet Mao via one of his Triremes. He arrived from the south east.

1030BC (6)

The Great Wall is built in a far away land. An Archer is whipped in Moscow.

1000BC (7)

The Lighthouse in St. Petersburg is built and The Great Lighthouse is queued up.
The Archer whipped in Moscow moves to St. Peterburg.
Drop to 70%:science:

985BC (8)

Zzzz.

970BC (9)

Hatshepsut becomes a Buddhist.

955BC (10)

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/12BC_writing.jpg

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/12BC_ob_egypt.jpg

940BC (11)

Turn down Open Borders request with Mao.

Moscow completes Archer and starts on a Settler. I am aware that there is very good argument for a Library, but I think a few more cities are also necessary. Moscow's suffering whip weariness, and is in no state for another whip to a Library. I'd rather see the food be directed to a Settler or a Worker right at the moment while we're on the happiness cap.

Mansa is the next guy we meet, and is the founder of Buddhism. This is my collection of contacts from this turnset;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/12BC_neighbours.jpg

925BC (12)

I move the Worker towards St. Petersburg and begin a chop on one of the Forested Hills with the view to eventually building a Mine.

Note for Steel Stiletto: In hindsight this should be stopped in the next round as the chop is incomplete to change the order away from a chop and instead to build the Mine - the Forest is worth more being kept there until the Mine is up and we aren't desperate for the :hammers: because we can't complete The Great Lighthouse any earlier with an early chop.

910BC (13)

Raise to 90%:science:

895BC (14)

Turn down Open Borders request with Mansa Musa.
Novgorod builds its Axeman who is sent north to fogbust. Queue up a Worker.

880BC (15)

When everything was going along rather well; he’s my big :smoke: … I allow St. Peterburg’s population to grow before whip-weariness wears off. My apologies for this :blush: – I mis-timed it and forgot about the extra five turns due to Epic speed. I guess all that's happening is that we are feeding a useless citizen instead of filling our Granary foodbox, but still, I admit a daft move.

Our empire squished down to 600 pixels wide;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/12BC_endturn.jpg

We're still the strongest Warlords team for our time. :)

Submission Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php)

... and really sorry again Steel Stiletto for handing over a game with an unhappiness issue.

So to fix up my game ... ;) ... change the Worker from a chop to a mine, consider whether the Archer in Novgorad should move out for more fogbusting, and endure a few turns of whip weariness in St. Petersburg.

Thanks for the ideas for my turn set. I won't be able to play yet though, and it won't really be till Tuesday really that I can, which is enough time that if someone else wanted to mess up the roster a bit, they can go first. Or, we can just have two days of discussion...

About technologies: We are some odd turns away from getting iron working (looks like eleven from the screenshot), and I don't really know what to go for next. Is there anything in specific that you guys recommend?

Also, why turn down open borders? I have never understood that. I know that personally in my games, I always accept open borders. Is it so that you can have better relations with the ones you do have open borders with, or is it maybe to keep our military strength a secret?

My thoughts at this point were that I would like to delay the A.I. from sending up a Galley from the south east and through our lands for a quick drop off to the north of us. At least at this rate they need to go around us and through Egyptian waters - or declare war on us.

Nobody that we have met has made contact with Gandhi, so perhaps the only way to India (west) is by sailing along our coast (?).

I have had the Galley moving around the Egyptian coast, but I could see some value in bringing it back to home for fogbusting reasons or if it would be quicker to move units around our empire by sea rather than by foot.

bring the thing home only if you cannot circumnavigate!
We'll need another galley soon, for whipping out gandhi.

Could build another galley in Moscow after settler finishes, or galley in Novgorod after worker finishes (need that for the hosses to build some chariots) so Moscow can build its library.
Probably easiest to let St Petersburg carry on with Glight without further whipping; when unhappy wears off just work another forest/hill tile.
Tech-wise after IW it depends if we're going for alphabet or going to try the Philosophy slingshot (myst, med, priest, CoL) (Or even alphabet and try and tech-trade towards philosophy slingshot).

steel.stiletto is UP (playing Tuesday)
cabert is on deck.
Unless you all want to swap.

Could build another galley in Moscow after settler finishes, or galley in Novgorod after worker finishes (need that for the hosses to build some chariots) so Moscow can build its library.
Probably easiest to let St Petersburg carry on with Glight without further whipping; when unhappy wears off just work another forest/hill tile.
Tech-wise after IW it depends if we're going for alphabet or going to try the Philosophy slingshot (myst, med, priest, CoL) (Or even alphabet and try and tech-trade towards philosophy slingshot).

steel.stiletto is UP (playing Tuesday)
cabert is on deck.
Unless you all want to swap.

i can play today, if there is a reason to rush

Only reason to 'rush' is that we're still playing short sets and some members of the team (who shall of course remain nameless) keep moaning about 'nothing ever happens on epic'.
Or we could just chat about the map, tech path, military vs civil builds, new dot maps, diplomatic manouvres etc.

Sorry, new person question, but what exactly is a dot map, and how do you make it?

And, what exactly is a slingshot? I see the term thrown around all the time, but I have no clue what it means.

Example of dot map is on post 40. Cam_H has indicated location of a possible city site with a letter and the city radius (also known as Big Fat Cross or BFC) has been lined around. Objective is to see how cities fit together to maximise resources and higher yield tiles without significant overlap. Couple of ways to make it: the clever way using windows paint or similar graphics prog that someone else will have to explain or the easy way by zooming out on the map screen and using far left button so you can mark city location with a sign and draw a new line around the city radius.
Slingshot is a bit of slang. It means acquiring a new technology by i) using a Great Person to research a technology ii)using Oracle to research a technology iii)discovering liberalism to research a technology. You can only research a technology that you've already researched (or got by trade) the prerequisite techs. An example is the Philosophy slingshot. To discover philosophy you must know its prereqs(meditation and code of laws(CoL)). A great scientist will then research philosophy in one turn. Different great people will discover different technologies and each great person type has a different order they discover technologies in (which is where it gets complicated).

(a.) The Galley

I think that it might be valuable to scratch around the coastlines of our rivals a bit further, as the more we meet, the better technology broking we'll be able to engineer when Alphabet comes in. Also, if we're going to eliminate five or so tribes (whatever the number) I'd like a good idea where they are and if we can see their resources. Admittedly resources will show up in pre-war trade talks.

If Gandhi becomes our first target, again I think there's value in checking out what we will be facing in terms of terrain and possible resources.

While we are still a little light-on in terms of fogbusting units, there is a good case to bring that Galley back to cover the north of the island. Certainly when we're ready to invade, we'll need it then.

(b.) Novgorod

When the Worker is done, consideration should be given to building a Mine on the Gems. The Horse Pasture struck me as the most apparent need, but the Gems will add badly needed happiness to Moscow and St. Petersburg.

(c.) Technology

I am split;

Alphabet - the sooner we can get on with technology trading, the better we'll be in terms of catching up with the AI. With The Great Lighthouse and running Moscow as a Science Centre, indeed we could be the technology leaders. I think that it is is preferable to get Priesthood, Polytheism, and Meditation by trade rather than self-researching these.

Metal Casting - with Gems and Forges we can run better cities, and am I allowed to mention The Colossus yet? :shifty: Novgorod with a Forge will become a great unit pump. It also puts Machinery in our sites.

Compass - Harbors' +50% trade route bonus and :health: bonus (a lesser issue for us right now admittedly) would be nice in concert with The Great Lighthouse.

(d.) Epic speed

Only reason to 'rush' is that we're still playing short sets and some members of the team (who shall of course remain nameless) keep moaning about 'nothing ever happens on epic'.
Or we could just chat about the map, tech path, military vs civil builds, new dot maps, diplomatic manouvres etc.

Well, what do you expect - nothing does happen on Epic! :lol:

I guess the thing that really caught me out was whip weariness - please watch this. Until we have the Gems hooked up we won't have any happiness resources for a while. (I'll take this opportunity to apologise again on St. Petersburg's growth!)

(e.) City specialisation

OK - so am I right in thinking that Moscow will become a Science Centre, running Specialist Scientists and pumping out Settlers, while Novgorod is our army pump for an Indian invasion, joined by St. Petersburg as a navy pump after The Great Lighthouse? The next proposed city spot north of St. Petersburg will be food rich once it has a border pop - and can help, if not replace Moscow as the Settler pump to fill up our island. Obviously we are going to need lots and lots of Workers.

a city working gems is short term our best economic move

let me add this little fact : no whipping population that works gems!

I have the same understanding of city priorities as cam_H.
Cabert : do you mean with your post that you'd prefer metal casting over alphabet ? At first sight I'd prefer alphabet.

How far away is Novgorod from pumping out units ? Do we want/need barracks first ? And/or a stable ?? I'd like to get our power graph up a bit...

I guess our first war-victim will be any AI that dares to settle on our island before we filled it up...

I have the same understanding of city priorities as cam_H.
Cabert : do you mean with your post that you'd prefer metal casting over alphabet ? At first sight I'd prefer alphabet.

How far away is Novgorod from pumping out units ? Do we want/need barracks first ? And/or a stable ?? I'd like to get our power graph up a bit...

I guess our first war-victim will be any AI that dares to settle on our island before we filled it up...

No! I want alphabet next tech.
But I want a city working gem mines.
A gem mine is like a mature cottage + production.

We don't want an AI to come fill our island. We can't raze a misplaced city!

I guess no gems till we get IW so probably have time to pasture horses first.
If we want to settle island before AIs turn up then we're probably looking at closed borders all round, Moscow building settlers, Novgorod building archers (fogbuster/garrison) before building barracks for our city raiding axemen. This means that exploring and buildings get put on hold.
But we can't do everything. If we can get our island settled peacefully and build Great Lighthouse then that would be a solid start. I'd really like circumnav bonus but I think settlign the island first is the way to go.

about building workers, may I suggest that every time moscow is size 4 we whip a worker for 2 pop and a lot of overflow?
We have 50% hammer bonus on workers. This bonus doesn't apply to food going to the building, but AFAIK it applies to the whip.

I suspect that to make most use of overflow it may be best to build two workers in succession. However whipping means working fewer tiles so less commerce. I'd rather Moscow built settlers at 4 pop, maybe working two clams, floodplain cottage and maybe a cottage on some spices, leave whipping for workers until we've got settlers built.

Okay, here's my got it. I have the file, have it opened, and am going to play.

Okay, I've gone through eight turns, but now I have a question. I forgot what I'm supposed to do with the worker now. I have no clue, and if it were left up to me, then I'd probably just chop down another forest for the Great Lighthouse. But, that's probably not the best option, so what do you guys think?

Turnset so far:
Turn 108, 880 BC: Nothing much to do, everything is done for me...
Turn 108, 880 BC: Staying with Iron Working though.

Turn 109, 865 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 110, 850 BC: Just exploring the Egyptian coast and sending our axeman to fogbust.
Turn 110, 850 BC: Started work on a mine where that forest was cut down.

Turn 111, 835 BC: Our boat has met with Huayna Capac's Skirmisher right outside of Egypt... There live on the same island maybe?
Turn 111, 835 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

Turn 112, 820 BC: Ouch, I feel sorry for Egypt, there is a barbarian city on their homeland. Oh well, tough luck...
Turn 112, 820 BC: Gonna fortify our axe man in what I think is a good strategic position...

Turn 113, 805 BC: Judaism has spread in Novgorod.

Turn 114, 790 BC: We have the opprotunity to get plus one happiness in Novgorad... For one turn of anarchy.... No thanks.

Turn 116, 760 BC: I'm just exploring and waiting...
Turn 116, 760 BC: *hums a little song*

Can you post a screenshot ?
Some thoughts from the top of my head :
- build a quarry on the stones
- cottage the floodplains east of Moscow.
- is there a worker near Novgorod ? Otherwise ferry him over and connect the horses.
If all that is already done, maybe a simple road to connect our cities, and a path northwards for the next city ?

worker tasks (not seeing the map):
- quarry
- mines
- cottages
- roads

farms come later

Steel Stiletto,

I haven't got the save either, but;

(1.) Novgorod's Worker should pop just as Iron Working is discovered (11 turns) - if :science: needed adjustment, then the Worker can build a road to the Gems.

(2.) I don't think :health: will be a big problem, so I would build a second mine near St. Petersburg and use the forest, but assess whether it's better to chop first, or mine the forested hill directly.

Ambiorix,

The stone has been quarried and the floodplain east of Moscow has a cottage. Novgorod's Worker should pop any turn now.

All,

Isn't Moscow going to build a Library and run two Specialist Scientists? Food excess used for squeezing out Workers? It's got very ordinary :hammers: potential, but I would think that using the food surplus for supporting two specialists and building Settlers and Workers may be better than constantly belting the city with the whip. If I recall, it hasn't got a Granary yet.

Steel.stiletto: if we've got a forested hill near St Pete then put the worker to mine it (rather than chop first) because that way we got the forest bonus until the turn the mine is built.
Tech wise I think the consensus is alphabet after IW.
For the moment I'd rather see Moscow build another settler coz we've still got a few sites to claim. Maybe Novgorod start on a fogbusting/ garrison archer after worker completed?

Okay, so I did some more turns...

Turn 116 (760 BC)
User comment: Deciding to chop another forest.

Turn 117 (745 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 118 (730 BC)
Contact made: German Empire
Moscow begins: Worker
Tech learned: Iron Working
St. Petersburg grows: 5
Novgorod finishes: Worker
User comment: Open borders, because Germany is in the way of my eastward journey.
144192

Turn 119 (715 BC)
Research begun: Alphabet
Novgorod begins: Barracks
User comment: I remember discussion on Novgorod being a military place, so I'm making a barracks. Yay! Also, started on a gem mine because we do have one sad city.

Turn 120 (700 BC)

Turn 121 (685 BC)

Turn 122 (670 BC)
The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
User comment: Oh shoot, I'm sorry guys. We missed it...
Contact made: Aztec Empire
User comment: More open borders, this time with Montezuma, because I do want to get around the world.

And, I've stopped here, because I don't know what to do with the settler. So, I'll leave that for the next person.

No need to apologise! These new-fangled AIs sure are wonder-hogs. We should have got some pocket money out of it. I was wondering if its worth a quick detour to mysticism to erect them monuments (coo, ancient culture).

cabert is UP!
Ambiorix is on deck.

Food for thought ;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/island670bc.jpg

# could settle on the Rice given the food haul from the Clams, while there's room for a junk city on the tile west of the Iron.

b.t.w. Nobody's fault, but nonetheless ... :wallbash:

New target? ;)

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/death_to_mao.jpg

where is china?

They came from the south east - but we haven't seen a border yet.

turn 0: move archer NW, move settler NW
I found china. It's not too far SE.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/74263/foundchina.JPG
I switch StPete to a barracks. Time for axes.
I whip the worker in Moscow. (I know it was only 3 turns but I don't like working unimproved tiles)
I also set research to 100% (we will get some cash for or failure to build the lighthouse of our dreams).
Did you notice that the stone was not connected, and that we did not benefit from the bonus? :mad:

turn 1: I whip the barracks in st pete. No more unhappies. New worker starts a cottage. I send our archer to fogbust north. We need a few more troops.

turn 2 : open borders with greece. Judaism in Rostov :)! yepee! free culture! We are fogbusting all but 4 tiles on our island.

Turn 3 : axeman is st petersburg. I move him northwest.

turn 4: axeman fogbusts 2 more tiles. worker moves.

turn 5 : worker building road. Our galley is still on it's way to circumnavigate

turn 6: the borders of novgorod expand. free culture is great :).
I look for a better fogbusting position: every single tile on our island is visible. :p barbarians.

turn 7: workers working, galley navigating. I MM moscow for granary this turn. not much gained this way, but i was bored.

turn 8: open borders with Rome. Axeman in st petersburg. I start a library there, and MM to avoid growth and having more hammers. granary finished in moscow, I start another settler. the galley found a barbarian city.

turn 9: Mine finished in novgorod. time for a road!

turn 10 : monte asks that we close borders with germany. No sir. He's annoyed. Rostov whips the granary. St pete can whip the library for 2 pop. I switch to a galley (no need to put more hammers in the library now). I switch moscow to a workboat for rostov (we have room for one more pop).

Turn 11 : oups, i miscounted hammers in st pete. We need 3 pop to whip the library (damned slow speed). I switch back to it.

turn 12: Moscow is size 5. still working on the workboat, while growing. St pete whips the library. Alphabet due next turn.

I obviously miscounted my turns, since i'm at tun 137 and I started at turn 122. I'll stop here.

My opinion on the next moves : axemen! If we build one archer and one axe, we have 4 axemen for a strike force. If we manage to bring our galley home we should be able to bring those to a neighbour. China needs to pay.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/74263/how_it_looks_in_445BC.JPG

the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Trash_Team_SG003_BC0445_01.CivWarlordsSave)

Nice progress.

If I remember well our island has 5 tiles in the north where a city would allow ships to cut through. Maybe we need to adjust the city planning a bit for that ?
And how about a second ship going west, to improve our chances of circumnavigation bonus (you don't need to do the journey with one boat) ?

A galley is half built in st petersburg. TRying to go the other way round could be good, since our eastern galley found ice and no way to go further (more options to the north, maybe)

Cabert,

Good trick on spotting China's culture!

The unconnected Stone wasn't an issue for The Great Lighthouse - it would be if we were to go after The Pyramids however ... :shifty: ... which I'm not suggesting.

The Great Lighthouse is in Beijing - I feel we'll need a SoD of at least six Axes, a Spear, and an Archer if we're to belt Mao around. Our Fishing Boats will also be vulnerable, so Triremes to protect them are another consideration.

Ambiorix,

I agree with the thinking on St. Petersburg's Galley heading west.

As for the city in the north, I was quite keen that the city should have access to a food resource (Cows near Rostov) so it could work the three Gem mines - hence the unfortunate large overlap. Following Civil Service this might be overcome through irrigation chained Farms. The dot map however is a proposal only, and I'm very willing to look at alternatives.

I'm not sure where we're going technology wise - Metal Casting, Compass, or Code of Laws (Pigswill's Philosophy slingshot)?

b.t.w. ... what's the turn-logger that you guys are using? I don't know much about those 'fangled' things.

I'm using the built in turn logger in the HOF mod. Just go to the options menu, HOF1 tab, and turn it on. Mine saves it in My Documents\My Games\Warlords\AutoLog. In order for me to add the user comments in the game, I just pushed alt+e. It's automatically formated for the forum, and the only thing I have to do once I finish is add in any screenshots that I want.

Steel,

Thanks for that. The HoF mod is completely new to me thanks to this SGOTM. :)

Okay, I've got it.
I'll play in about 24h from this post, so feel free to share ideas, comments...
Alphabet is up, so we can start trading techs. I suppose the AI will drive hard bargains on this level. Okay to exchange techs even if they're asking for more than they want to give (within limits of course) ?

Edit : if we're going for a slingshot, I'll have to take a crash-course on exactly what to do when - can do, though.
And nobody's talking about the iron source - I suppose with our cities like that it's going to take some time to get them within our borders.

Personally I'd (a.) hold back on trading Alphabet with anyone and (b.) trading anything with Mao - but wait for Cabert's thoughts on this - we diverge enormously on this issue. ;)

It's perhaps a bit premature to comment until we have a good look at what's available. Are you happy to play a turn and present options?

Personally I'd (a.) hold back on trading Alphabet with anyone and (b.) trading anything with Mao - but wait for Cabert's thoughts on this - we diverge enormously on this issue. ;)



we need to trade a lot, including alphabet
wait to trade every other tech before alphabet (i have no way to know what techs are tradeable right now:( )

OK - I'll have a look at what's available. I suppose I could do some obvious trades (like trading a basic tech with a low-scoring AI) and then post back if it gets complicated. I suppose the decision of who to trade with also depends on who we want to keep friendly, which in turn may be related to who has judaism.

Personally I'm in favor of trading Alphabet as well to get the research-speed up) and then go for either Calendar (for spices) or something the AI is less likely to research.

Pigswill ? Steel ? What do you folks think ?

Oh, and isn't there a rule of some sort that you an't trade a tech if you just trade a prerequisite or something like that ??

One of the things to be remembered in tech trading is We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced (WFYABTA) is triggered solely by the number of tech trades thus trading eg masonry, meditation and pottery is exactly the same as trading plastics, composites and fusion. This means that trading one expensive tech for two cheap techs is not good policy in the long term. Problem I'mhaving post patch is working out AI tech priorities, calendar is still a fave, best options might be CoL or construction. My preference would be (as posted ages ago) to go for philosophy slingshot and then trade for medieval techs.
On the other hand settling island is still my number one priority so maybe set moscow to building a settler (or two) while St Pete finishes galley (maybe workers?) and Novgorod continues units.

Do you get a 'trading with the enemy' penalty for tech trading with civs before they become enemies?

My old map;

http://www.users.bigpond.com/c.hills/island670bc.jpg

I've done no convoluted mathematical calculations, but my general plan would be;

Moscow should get a Library as a priority and begin running Specialist Scientists. The Library will almost certainly need a whip to complete, but because of its huge food production, it can pump out Workers or any required Settlers while recoving from whip weariness. If we're to go with Pigswill's Slingshot we might actually have to think about putting some :gp: points towards it.

St. Petersburg is seemingly a good production centre, and should pump out a navy in light of the fact that it hasn't got Barracks while Novgorod does. If there's thoughts about The Great Library or The Colossus - we could do worse than St. Petersburg by mere fact that it has the :hammers: haul to be competitive with the AI - more so The Colossus due to access to Copper. To my mind St. Petersburg shouldn't be concentrating too much on Workers and Settlers as other cities do that better thanks to their relative :food: vs. :hammers: ratios. If food's getting out of control and there's existing whip weariness, pull the citizen off the Clams (and later Fish) and make them a Specialist Scientist which will also help in the :gp: department. Also, I think we should plan to chain fresh water from the bottom of the river to the west of St. Petersburg if we want those Plains between Moscow and St. Petersburg to be self-supporting, albeit neither city is desperate for food given that both have two seafood resources.

Novgorod seems to be our agreed unit pump.

Rostov formerly '&' has three food resources in sight (although the Cows should eventually go to the city in the north), and should be able to pop out one or two Settlers before an army of Workers and possibly act as a Great Person Farm with the National Epic in mind. Look at irrigation chaining from the Rice up to the '%' city.

'%' with three Gem Mines could just possibly, if you think, make a reasonable commerce city ;) with a nice hammer haul 'to boot'. It's a shame that there will be some distance maintenance to endure. It might be too late in the game to get The Colossus from this yet-to-be-built city though.

'#' or 'one-west-on-Rice' could be another commerce hub with excellent Cottaging prospects and the growth coming from the Clam and 'possibly' the Rice ... thoughts on whether 'on the Rice' or 'next to the Rice' is better?

As before, there's room to run a junk city west of our Iron if we want to work that resource - we might benefit from a little hybrid city with a good :hammers: tile and a decent number of Coast tiles. It would be tragic if the A.I. decided to settle on the Iron before St. Peterburg gets a second border pop.

Once our Cows are hooked up, we can cancel that trade deal with Egypt if we wish, but little else seems to be on offer. Nonetheless, I don't see much benefit in helping Egypt's :health: for no gain.

St. Petersburg is seemingly a good production centre, and should pump out a navy in light of the fact that it hasn't got Barracks while Novgorod does.
I whipped a barracks there, don't worry ;)

Oh - 'righty-o' then.

I wasn't worried as such, but trying to get better definition on where our cities were going, 'specialisation-wise'.

You 'whipped' them did you? :rolleyes: Something wrong with actually building something? :lol:

... thoughts on whether 'on the Rice' or 'next to the Rice' is better?
On the rice would create a naval passage which would allow us to move troops north or south without having to care about cultural borders.

Many usefull comments. Philo-slingshot sounds good to me.

Oh - 'righty-o' then.

I wasn't worried as such, but trying to get better definition on where our cities were going, 'specialisation-wise'.

You 'whipped' them did you? :rolleyes: Something wrong with actually building something? :lol:

slow speed and unhappies made me do it. Don't tell my mom, please :lol:

About whipping:
(I know I repeat myself)
Working unimproved tiles is a waste of population. That's why I whip everytime I go out of unhappiness in the early game.
We really need workers, and with our expansive trait, a worker requires 1 turn of hammer + a whip for 2 pop, giving at least 23 hammers overflow. I'd rather whip for workers and build those axemen than the other way round ;).

Well I certainly understand the frustration from the slow speed ... ;)

I'd rather whip for workers and build those axemen than the other way round

So the thinking is that you grow the population to the happiness cap while building Units, when it is at its max you build Workers to the point where whipping becomes a workable proposition (?).

I'm still somewhat swayed by the logic that food-rich cities focus on Workers and Settlers, and hammer-rich cities build Army and Navy, although there's room for the whip in both provided it's not applied recklessly.

OK, so as the game progresses and we build buildings that allow for Specialists, buildings that multiply :commerce: and :hammers:, and have more developed tiles with improved access to resources, we'll be holding back on the whip a little bit?

I'm not questioning that we've used the whip poorly or anything - but I'm just trying to get on the same wavelength as everyone else.

I'm still unsure what everyone is thinking regarding our navy requirements - is four Galleys and two Triremes at minimum what we're shooting for in terms of an off-shore invasion? As before, our Work Boats are vulnerable, and Mao has that Trireme floating around.

in my opinion (but i'm not everyone), we need 2 galleys (and 1 trireme maybe).
If we need more troops over there, we'll make a round trip. It's not THAT far.

I'm not that au fait with Ancient naval warfare I admit.

'The word' is that the A.I. is still pretty terrible in that area, so I'm not sure if we're likely to be confronted by three enemy Triremes as our little force floats across the sea or not.

If it were me - I'd build two Triremes to be safe ... I'm a touch paranoid about the computer and its capacity to know our builds. :shifty:

2 triremes is safer, of course, since a single trireme can block our way if we haven't enough force to storm through!

Hmm.. I'd say three triremes - am I being paranoid ? One to protect fishing grounds and two to protect galleys. I'd rather build a trireme too many than having to build workboats again.
Can triremes be upgraded ?

Hmm.. I'd say three triremes - am I being paranoid ? One to protect fishing grounds and two to protect galleys. I'd rather build a trireme too many than having to build workboats again.
Can triremes be upgraded ?

we don't need to defend at home, we prevent enemy ships to come near our land.
upgrading is a waste most of the time

Can triremes be upgraded ?

The answer's "yes" - they can be upgraded to Caravels and Frigates, although they would need a ton of promotions to make it worthwhile as Cabert 'sort of' suggests. On 'normal' speed; Triremes are 50:hammers: Caravels are 60:hammers: Frigates are 90:hammers:I think we need two. I wouldn't object to a third once the conflict begins, but it's really a bit early to say until we see a bit more of what we are up against and whether there are enemies anywhere near our Fishing Boats.

to ^protect our fishing nets, we would need 6 of those triremes
this is really not possible.
It's easier to manage "interdiction" with 2 triremes using all the coast tiles leading to our land. Of course if an enemy ship is behind our back, we're screwed.