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The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

FIRST! (kinda)... So any preference on order of play? I know I don't want to go first!

We should discuss whether we want have a discussion on who to go first.

;)

Checking in ... it's good to be back with the original VQ ... let's start pouring in all the strategies!

Re: starting location, we should settle right here and there ... too bad abt wasting a floodplains, but if we want to get the other clam resource, we must settle there.

An alternative is to go 1 N, losing the clams and the other southern spices, but preserving a floddplains. Notice also all the resources bubble are pointing northward, and the coastal tiles seems to give a hint of tundra/snow, suggesting we are way south.

A third alternative is to move 1E-1NE, losing all of the clams, but perhaps there be fishes on the eastern coast??

So, before settling, suggest moving scout 1E-1NE to the forested hill, to reveal as much of the north eastern terrain as possible, then we discuss.

Hey Checking in,

Settle in place definatly, the food is just to good... Food = king in the early game.
Get 2 workboats out ASAP, clearly

Uhm, I think Great Lighthouse is important as we will have loads of trade partners early if we
1) Stay in NRS
2) Pick a right Religion
Just wondering tho, are we going to aim for building it ourselves? Or gamble on a neighbour building it (close) and conquer it?

IMHO Diplo is tough with so many opponents... So many people to keep friends with. AI are still bad at landings, so only conquest we may see is if 2 civs are on 1 island. Giving us a clear opponent in the elections and victory votes.

Best chance for (early) victory IMHO is backdoor Diplo...

@Greyfox: The resource indicators (IIRC) have been fixed so to not give away our position on the globe.

@Team: Allways have a scout with a galley for exploring, I was able to pick up some nice GHs on the solo practice game I played while I was sick. Getting 2 galleys out (after we get writing for OBs) is high priority in my book.

I also noticed with trading/selling techs, in particular after finished wonders, there is lots of gold to be made from selling techs. I was able to run 100% at -40 gpt constantly from dealing techs.

Lets go find out how close the practice Island was in comparison to this one :)

Checking in and settling on place seems good. Moving the scout N-NE to hill would be good to see what else is available. With the two sea resources I agree first builds should be workboats so we will need fishing. I like relgion but in this game will be very tricky with 17 civs. We will need fishing first so that means even less likely to get one in the beginning. With our philosophical trait perhaps we could get one later. Definitely capitol will be a GP farm.

namliaM suggested in getting Great Lighthouse and I agree with this type of map. Perhaps early tech path should be fishing, sailing, masonry
We will need a production city so north of capitol is ideal for that but we should try to have coastal cities as much as possible.
Although Peter can build cheap workers he won't have anything to do here until we get some worker techs. We do have mining so getting a second city with some hills would give him something to do but again if forested definitely will need BW. Rather than considering archery so early (warriors will do for a while) after masonry go for BW. That would allow us to do some chopping.

As to victory conditions diplomatic sounds ideal since it is the fastest but with 17 civs also tricky. We have seven religions so if we have seven different blocks so to speak it will be tough.

:salute: from .

Checking in and drawing your attention to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4803002&postcount=6). I'm fine with having 4000BC being turn0.

Your opinions, Team?

I definitely agree on settling on spot. As for the worker ... I assume (!) that our island will be "discovered" soon ... So I'm fine with whereever you wanna go.

namliaM suggested in getting Great Lighthouse and I agree with this type of map.
That would certainly be very, very helpful. I've missed it in my testgame, though. For reasons see next post.

With the two sea resources I agree first builds should be workboats so we will need fishing.
:yup:

I like relgion but in this game will be very tricky with 17 civs. We will need fishing first so that means even less likely to get one in the beginning.
:dubious:

As to victory conditions diplomatic sounds ideal since it is the fastest but with 17 civs also tricky. We have seven religions so if we have seven different blocks so to speak it will be tough.
If we'd have seven different blocks I'd agree ... :mischief: ... !

I find your lack of faith disturbing
:agree:

... to be continued ...

.

Here is the starting spot:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/4000BC.jpg

I think that comes pretty close to what we'll get. Notice that I've set the tile under the fog in yet-to-become-moscow's-BFC to ice since we will not know what we'll find. Better not to count it in!

If you want me to post the report without the spoiler please let me know.

4000 BC:
Moscow is founded on spot.
Oh, and yes! Go for fishing.

First chap we meet: The little General: Napoleon: By border expansion.
Techwise: Fishing is in now, after 8 turns. I go for Mysticism. :rolleyes:

3610 BC:
Buddhism has been FIADL.

3460 BC:
Here comes Mysticism. I go for Poly.

3250 BC:
Ah, our first workboat. Went for one the very turn I've researched fishing. I micromanage Moscow to cut a turn off of Poly.

3160 BC:
Next chap we meet: The Backstabber: Alex.

3040 BC:
Here comes Polytheism. I go for Masonry. Polytheism, huh?
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/hinduism.jpg

The sudden sprawl of faith has urged life to prosper ... or so it is said. And that forest will be important!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/hinduandforest.jpg

2770 BC:
Do you want to know how to build a great wall, Sir? We've researched Masonry. I go for ... Mono.

2740 BC:
Second workboat is ready.

2710 BC:
Moscow's boarders are about to expand (pop #3!).
I cut two turns off of Mono by MM.

2470 BC:
The wealthiest Civs of the world (according to Pliny):
1. Alex
2. thru 8. Unknown.

2380 BC:
Monotheism, and yes, Judaism. I go for BW.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/judaism.jpg

2290 BC:
After two turns of anarchy we have OR and Judaism. Moscow can grow to size 6. Growth to size 5 is due in 4.

2020 BC:
Clam to Alex for Crab.

1900 BC:
BW is in. So late? Yes. I revolt to Slavery and go for Sailing.

1660 BC:
Hello Asoka!

1630 BC:
Hello Biz!

1570 BC:
No Asoka, we won't stop trading with the Greeks. (In a low whispered voice: "A$$hole")

1540 BC:
Judaism has spread in Sparta.

1510 BC:
Sailing >> Wheel.
Hi Lizzy.
Alex converts to Judaism.

1450 BC:
Oops, I forgot to mention:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/Stonehenge.jpg

I go for a settler.

1390 BC:
Lizzy gets OB with us. She might have Writing, hum?

1270 BC:
Wheel >> Priesthood.

1180 BC:
Asoka and us have OB.

1090 BC:
Priesthood >> Writing.
Moscow: Settler >> Oracle.

1030 BC:
Napoleon converts to Hinduism.
St Petersburg is settled and starts a lighthouse.

1000 BC:
Alex and us have OB.

985 BC:
We are not amongst the 8 largest civs of the world. :(
Judaism has spread in Orleans.

910 BC:
Alex converts to Hinduism and cancels the Clam-Crab-Deal.
Moscow has it's 4th (in words: Fourth!) border expansion.
Napoleon has completed the Great Wall.

910 - 670 BC:
A whole lot of stuff happend in these years. But In 670 BC I missed out on the Oracle by six turns. And when I figured that it was due to horrible MM in Moscow I decided to reload an autosave.
880 BC: (the reload from autosave)
First thing to do: MM Moscow from 24 turn until Oracle to 15 without any loss. Stupid.

835 BC:
Writing >> Theology. (A really stupid :smoke: here.)

820 BC:
Hinduism has spread in St. Petersburg. Nice.
So I convert to Hinduism ... And meet Cyrus by LoS. Nice, again. :)

790 BC:
St Petersburg's first border expansion.

775 BC:
Hinduism has spread in London.

760 BC:
And eventually Lizzy converts.
Oracle due in 8.

745 BC:
MM Moscow to reduce the "ETA" of the Oracle from 7 to 6.

715 BC:
And Clam for Crab again, Mr Backstabber.
Oh, Hi Toku. Yes, Peace there shall be.

685 BC:
St Petersburg: Lighthouse >> GLh.
Moscow: Hurry the Oracle for one Pop.

670 BC:
OB with Bizzy.
CoL for free. We've entered the Classical Era.
Moscow: Oracle >> Galley
Confucianism has been founded in St. Petersburg.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/meltingoracleconfucian.jpg

St. John has been born in Moscow. Wait - St. John? What did he believe in? Hum ... He'd research Meditation? Oh, dot! Stupid! --> Switch research from Theology to Meditation!!!

655 BC:
Hey, Jules! Yep, let there be Peace.
The confused missionary fails to spread his faith @ Moscow.

640 BC:
OB with Jules, Naples (oops, Napoleon, I mean, ;)), Cyrus and HC. HC? Yep we've met him back in 700 BC. Sorry folks. Forgot to meniton.

610 BC:
Jules believes in Jahwe. So he says.

580 BC:
Hinduism has spread in Frankfurt, right after Biz converted to Judaism. Bad Luck.

550 BC:
Mediation is in. OK, John, go and baptize!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/gobaptize.jpg

And so is Theology. We've entered the Medieval Era ... @ 550 BC.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/religion4.jpg

And here comes Religion #4. Christanity has been founded in St. Petersburg.
Techwise I head for Pottery.

535 BC:
Christianity has spread in Moscow.
Hinduism has spread in Tiwanaku.

520 BC:
HC converts, eventually.

505 BC:
Hinduism has spread in Arbela.
GLh due in 35 after some MM.

445 BC:
Pottery >> Archery.

430 BC:
ToA has been built IAFAL.

415 BC:
HG have been built IAFAL.

370 BC:
Archery >> AH.
Hinduism has spread in Cuzco.

355 BC:
Hinduism has spread in Canterbury.

340 BC:
Bismarck converts to Hinduism.

325 BC:
Jules cancels OB due to us not being judaic - I assume.
And I start chopping a forest near St Petersburg to help with the GLh.

295 BC:
Hey Asoka, we've been thru this before: We won't stop trading with the Greek. Especially not with our Galley in their territory. :nope:

265 BC:
Hinduism has spread in Knossos.

250 BC:
Another forest has grown near Moscow.

235 BC:
We are not amongst the 8 wealthiest civs in the world. Not yet! ;)

205 BC:
GLh has been built IAFAL.
And that's where I stopped. ... to be continued ...

I find your lack of faith disturbing! ;)

Well, I agree. Getting religions with 18 civs on Monarch is really tight. But possible:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/religions.jpg

5 religions founded.
4 are russian.
2 cities could hold two shrines each.
Now it'd definitely be all about settling and building.
But if you have a look at the percentage of hinduism ... :eek:
Methinx we'd be well in the race for diplo so far. And that's reflected by the diplo screen:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h277/dot_01/112506/relations205bcnew.jpg

-3 ... in total! (Admittedly so far. We'd still have to meet eight other civs. :()

Well, Diplo via religion might be possible. And with two religios wonders Great Prophets and thereby shrines (for a lot of commerce!) and/or DR (and maybe Islam) are possible. So what do you guys think about this? Where would you like to go? Or rather: What would you like to aim for?

Kind regards, .

I'm good too with turn 0 = 4000BC.....

Dot I take it you think we should try for early religion??

namliaM's statement about backdoor diplomatic win is probably the best option so lots of warring. I do really, really like Russian UB but it's kind of late in the game unfortunately.

Looking forward to your comments Dot and of course any one else from the team.

namliaM's statement about backdoor diplomatic win is probably the best option so lots of warring.
Offcourse this capitol means whip again... Tho we wont have the advantage/ability of the "whip bug"... i.e. the SGOTM2 whipping issue(s)

To use the whip effectively preferably we whip at a point where after the whip we immediatly regrow a pop.
i.e. this means at size 5 we want to whip with the foodbar at 24/30 or better with +2 food at size 3. This means that after one turn at size 3 we will go to 26/26 and grow to 4.
This most probably can be timed better as we want to whip just below pop limit and be at pop limit for as long as possible.

Also pre-this thread, we assumed this to be a builder game and it can be... I think. Post liberalism most AI should switch to free religion right? Therefor any negatives from religion should be null and void by the time we get to Radio (right?) for the UN.
My big problem with "real" diplo is keeping everyone happy (enough) we are sure to get demands/requests for tech/war.
By declaring war on 1 AI we are sure to "upset" one or more others. Also the constant giving in to requests to keep AI happy will force us to give things we may not want to give.
We need to deside just about on turn 0 ;) what our goal will be.
1) True diplo
- Get friends and many, make a common enemy... Preferably our (future) oponent in the UN... which will be hard to pick this early
2) Backdoor Diplo
- War war and more war, get a mayority in the UN ourselves
3) Space
- Need quite some productive cities which is hard to do in Archipelago maps.

Each have its own problem(s) ...
1) make sure we get lots of positive modifiers, while avoiding negatives where we can
2) War means slower tech = later UN = to late UN to go for the laurels?
3) Production + loads of tech needed more than diplo = Laurels?

@Dot, I dont like the idea for you to edit those posts. This could lead to misunderstandings/misconceptions and/or people not reading your post(s). due to they are not marked as "new"...

I think I like the idea of 1 workboat first, maybe followed by a settler or a worker. We will have the food... which is nice... Also building a quite expensive early wonder I think we need a second base to
a) keep expanding
b) actually build it if it is a better site than our capitol.

Our capitol will not benifit from any worker techs I think. The biggest benifits are:
1) Workboats (Fishing)
2) Lighthouse (Sailing)
3) Granary + Cottages (Pottery)
4) Chopping (BW)

So I think we need to prioritize these techs early on... No need to pick up Agriculture or AH ASAP.

This capitol will have NO production what so ever unless:
- copper or Iron pops up like in the test game, which IMHO is unlikely
- we keep those forrests

So we need to think about and put the chops to good use and whip hard sometimes to get things build.

One thing I found "disturbing" in Warlords and in the test game in particular was/is the very slow autospread of the Religions.

More random thoughts to follow I expect....

@namliaM - You make very good points and I concur on all of them. No need to extrapolate just that you put some thought into this and are providing the team with sound advice.

This capitol will have NO production what so ever unless:
- copper or Iron pops up like in the test game, which IMHO is unlikely
- we keep those forrests

Yes lots of whipping happening here. Again you have provided us with the best whipping techniques and shall follow them to the T. Second city should be coastal of course but also have the ability to provide ample production.

Build path sounds good with workboat, settler although at some point we should have garrison of some sort. We might think about a warrior or two as definitely will need one to accompany settler. Now if we go for a galley soon then he could be shuttled to a safe coastal spot. Still will need an escort though. If this were SP I might risk it without but we can't afford to loose our first settler.

I like the techpath good approach and getting granary early is great for whipping. I appreciate how you explain the foodbar and would appreciate you explaining again how the overflow works in warlords. I understand 1 pop is worth 45 hammers and is multiplyed by such things as forge/engineer. I went looking thru our last SGOTM but of course that doesn't apply so your expert advice on this is most appreciated and a great guide for the team.

One thing I found "disturbing" in Warlords and in the test game in particular was/is the very slow autospread of the Religions.

I have noticed this too so what's with that. We should be alright without one for a while but it would be nice to deal with happiness/culture. Shall we also consider writing soon after that tech path but don't forget if we want Lighthouse we will need Masonry. We need to time the Masonry research in tune with second city is ready to build it. I take it whipping doesn't work on wonders except as usual with the overflow only?

Ok where's the rest of the team so far we have:
Greyfox, namliaM, Bobrath (fears the first turn bet ya namliaM will take the lead) and Dot who has received an appropiate comment from namliaM re the spam. I was thinking it but going to be a good boy this time around.

We are still needing to hear from Robo Kai, Scowler, and Furrie.

We have a 8 member roster but I suspect Furrie will be OOP a lot since he has been unable to play in SG's for a while.

So here's suggested begin roster:

namliaM (GMT+1)
Bobrath (GMT -5) I think
Greyfox (GMT +8)
Robo Kai (GMT +8)
Furrie (GMT +1)
Cosmichail (GMT -5)
Dot (GMT +1)
Scowler (GMT)

Ok we can change this but I was thinking Dec. 1st being close to the weekend is better for namliaM and I think considering SGOTM02 set us up nicely. Dot and Furrie are opposites as to when they can play. Bobrath/Greyfox tend to play fast so that would put us in the week of Dec. 4th which is better for Furrie and I don't think its matter to Robo. I prefer during the week more so and the next weekend would line up for Dot hopefully or close to it and Scowler I think is flexible.

One more thing let's keep the posts short enough to keep our attention span. I am telling myself this as being a 90-100wpm typist I tend to ramble on. So this is just to remind myself. One last point l would rather see us stop for a while for discussion rather than rush the turns. After reading CFR from start to finish these guys discussed a lot before playing so team participation is mandatory or else. (you get sent to Siberia)

Posts #9 and #10 in this thread are now edited and filled! ;)

@Dot, I dont like the idea for you to edit those posts. This could lead to misunderstandings/misconceptions and/or people not reading your post(s). due to they are not marked as "new"...

I agree namliaM. But I think posting that I have edited them hence not ripping the report apart but providing a new post would do the trick. Wouldn't it?

Regards, .

Oh, and if you want to play with that ~ 4000 BC save ~ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61908/dot_BC-4000_SGOTM3_custom_games_save_postWB.CivWarlordsSa ve) ... Go for it! :D

Personaly I dont thing the Religious route is the way to go... To many Myst starting civs out there to start picking up religions I think.

Signing in.

I don't have much to say at this point (and will probably also be fairly busy over the next couple of days), but so far I think namliaM is presenting a good assessment of possible ways forward.

So here's suggested begin roster:

namliaM (GMT+1)
Bobrath (GMT -5) I think
Greyfox (GMT +8)
Robo Kai (GMT +8)
Furrie (GMT +1)
Cosmichail (GMT -5)
Dot (GMT +1)
Scowler (GMT)

Just a note, although I have yet to put it in my signature: I am flying to Japan for a week starting 3rd Dec ... but as usual, I don't foresee any problem with me accessing the CFC and playing my turns at night in the hotel ...


Personaly I dont thing the Religious route is the way to go... To many Myst starting civs out there to start picking up religions I think.

Actually, dot presented a very good scenario of grabbing religions ... I disagree with anyone saying religions is hard to get with 18 civs ... its actually fairly easy if you set your mind to it. Religious still the key to diplomatic relations like it or not.


@Greyfox: The resource indicators (IIRC) have been fixed so to not give away our position on the globe.

Hmm... yeah, I noticed recently the bubbles seems to be pointing the "wrong way" ... hmm ... why fix something that is not broken? Just by looking at the sun ancient civ would have known where along the latitude they are situated . The so-called fix is definitely counter-reality.


Also pre-this thread, we assumed this to be a builder game and it can be... I think. Post liberalism most AI should switch to free religion right? Therefor any negatives from religion should be null and void by the time we get to Radio (right?) for the UN.

Not really ... AI are algorithms, they excel in calculations. So, they would calculate the benefits of going free religion against a state religion. They choose the former only if there are a lot of different religions spread across its empire.

Re starting position, starting tech and all that, I would really suggest we re-evaluate after making the first scout move. Thus I propose that the first player move that scout, post a screenshot and wait a day or 2 for discussions.

--

I am for trying for religion and dot's test did show it was doable. The only difference (devil's advocate) is that sometimes you pick poly and 90% of the time AI chooses meditation. However (oh here we go) there is a chance the AI or one of them chooses poly. Now if that did happen then we would need to go to monotheism and again divert from other techs that might be needed.

Since in SGOTM a move is permanent and will effect the remainder of the game one has to consider this carefully. I want to thank Dot for the demonstration and very much appreciate it. What concerns me too with wonders is that it takes away from necessary settling. Oracle would have more of a priorty over stonehenge. Of course if we are in a similiar setup as practice GOTM settling might not be such a priorty as much as pangea/or continents.

Another observation about religious/wonder based societies. They tend to be weak military as if you do have a shrine missionaries will be needed to get those civs to our religion. Again if you found like three religions you choose let's say Judaism, the other AI's pick up your other religion like Hindu/or Confucianism/or christianity. What happens a lot to me the AI with buddhism gets everybody to buddhist. I hate having to build missionaries (find it a waste of hammers) and the need to sometimes to send missionaries several times to the same city.

That's my thoughts on it and think it wouldn't hurt to get at least one or even two for the culture balloon. But the warmonger in me says the backdoor may be best since there are so many civs. Find a strong partner get them to our religion and attack a nearby AI for land grab. Monarch warlords does not allow that as easily anymore so that too needs a lot of consideration.

I agree with Greyfox and moving the scout and then again discussing it. We have lots of time to make sure we do it right and with team consensus. Don't get me wrong I am not saying an individual player is doing anything wrong but discussions tend to open up other avenues of thought one person might not think of. Ergo a team can accomplish more than a single player although sometimes one needs to weed through a lot of reading.

We have to consider too that AI settles a lot faster now and grows huge cities early. I noticed that they keep their cities happy with HR and lots of MP's.

Hinduism - Judaism

I am for trying for religion and dot's test did show it was doable. The only difference (devil's advocate) is that sometimes you pick poly and 90% of the time AI chooses meditation.
Before I've set up this test game I've played a couple of turns on different warlords/monarch/archipelago/18civs games. Usually the first religion I've been able to found was Judaism. So I think that I've been quite lucky with grabbing Hinduism. And I've played the same save once before without picking up fishing but going straight for mysticism >> polytheism >> masonry >> monotheism ... And I've only got Judaism. Fishing did the trick commerce-wise, I think!

Stonehenge - Great Lighthouse - Settling

What concerns me too with wonders is that it takes away from necessary settling. Oracle would have more of a priorty over stonehenge.
Yes, definitely! In my test game I wanted to check whether SH would be possible. For the SGOTM I'd drop it though. For being able to have an earlier settler and so to have a higher possibilty for getting the GLh - which is a Must on the archipelago map.
And yes ... in Warlords (with the patch) the AI settle really fast. So I agree that going for both religious wonders is a :nono:. Even if that means postponing Theology. If you look at my maps I'm pretty much cramped in by 205 BC. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61908/dot_BC-0205_missing_the_lighthouse_by_15.CivWarlordsSave) .

Religion & Diplomacy


Also pre-this thread, we assumed this to be a builder game and it can be... I think. Post liberalism most AI should switch to free religion right? Therefor any negatives from religion should be null and void by the time we get to Radio (right?) for the UN.
Not really ... AI are algorithms, they excel in calculations. So, they would calculate the benefits of going free religion against a state religion. They choose the former only if there are a lot of different religions spread across its empire.
Another observation about religious/wonder based societies. They tend to be weak military as if you do have a shrine missionaries will be needed to get those civs to our religion. Again if you found like three religions you choose let's say Judaism, the other AI's pick up your other religion like Hindu/or Confucianism/or christianity. What happens a lot to me the AI with buddhism gets everybody to buddhist. I hate having to build missionaries (find it a waste of hammers) and the need to sometimes to send missionaries several times to the same city.
As I've posted earlier and elsewhere (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4762633&postcount=384) I've been playing 18civ-maps before. And even though I haven't finished the games yet I've made some observations about AI and religion (even though on Vanilla!).


In most cases the AI are still in some state religion when DP's come in. Guess who will form one with you. Heathens or brothers and sisters of the faith?
PA is enabled. And is 'really' enabled by either a long enough period of military cooperation or DP. So that might help to contribute to an earlier victory. Thoughts, folks?
Yes @ GreyFox. If we manage to spread one religion really widely the AI tends to stay in a state religion longer. I've found that, too. But Cosmic is right, too. That would mean that one of our cities has to be more or less only a missionary producer. But here again ...
(50 Hindu cities + the shrine + market + grocer + bank + wall street) = 150 :gold:pt. How many percent does that make? Techslider-wise, I mean?
Getting as many religions as possible would be crucial if we'd go the religious route. I see no other way to actively prevent seven blocks diplo-wise from the start. And yes, we leave out a whole bunch of other important techs. But what about the trade value of CoL and Theology?

Military weakness

And Yes, Cosmic, religious/wonders games really tend to be weak on military ... But even under the patch the AI quite sucks at naval warfare! And with Theocracy we'd be able to produce a couple free-combat1-triremes. :mischief:

Backdoor Diplo

Find a strong partner get them to our religion and attack a nearby AI for land grab. Monarch warlords does not allow that as easily anymore so that too needs a lot of consideration.
Three versions I have to offer:


Early landgrab:
Spread i.e. Hinduism widely. Spare out one or two weak nearby civilizations that might only have one hindu city. While assembling a decent army spread one of your other religions to them widely. To quote GreyFox: "AI are algorithms, they excel in calculations." When they convert wait a few turns for your brothers and sisters of the faith to get quite annoyed with them ... and then - :devil: - bribe them into war, join in willingly (for the maybe-diplo-plus) and grab some land! :p
Late landgrab:
If we'd have enough room to settle war will come anyway sooner or later by some of Izzy's peacefully meditating buddhist nations, wouldn't it? And that would allow us to reduce the number of man that could possibly vote against us in the UN.
Landgrab:
Combine 1. and 2. And really ... settle rather early ourselves since 'no city razing' is enabled!
Wow, what a complex matter! :crazyeye: Curiously waiting for your responses!

With regards from Germany, .

(50 Hindu cities + the shrine + market + grocer + bank + wall street) = 150 :gold:pt. How many percent does that make? Techslider-wise, I mean? I dont think we need to worry about money, from the test game I played. I sold/traded every tech I got after Alpha/Currency to (almost) each and every civ out there. allways running 100% science with a -50 gpt. The key is selling techs, not selling religion.

From a single early tech like CoL I would get well over 500 gold and go over 1500 gold for construction/machinery.

One thing I think I am sure of, what ever we do... We need fishing as tech #1. So we can work those Clams with workboats (4/0/2 fhc). Food early = king.
However fishing first, means losing 88 commerce on the religion chase...
at size 2 we can be working 2 clams or FP + Grass Spice.
Taking into account maybe we have 1 workboat... that is 6/4 (f/c) vs 5/2. This means that we gain 2 commerce per turn. 88/2 = 44 turns.
At size 4 without Fishing we will be working the 2 spice and possibly the a forrest for 3 commerce.
Where size 4 with Fishing, FP + Clams + Spice = 6. That is 88/(6-3) = 29 turns.

In the practice game I had Hinduism founded turn 28 (Spain) and Buddism turn 13 (Inca). No where near the needed 29 turns to get (near) the return on fishing. So if we want to have a (good) shot at Hinduism we want to go for it from the start, skipping fishing.

Despite what I said earlier, I think we should forget abt the early religions. We do not start with Mysticism ... it will be real difficult to grab hindu. I proposed we use the Pracrice game tactics of doing a scientists specialists and go for the philosophy lightbulb.

We should still go fishing first ... who knows, we may get lucky and pop mysticism from a hut :mischief:

I went and I made 4 moscows.... Starting from the practice save 4000 BC, NOT working the Copper this time... As we cannot count on it beeing there.

*Hey where did the Imageshack link go???*

A) Workboats, max food/optimal whipping
Tech path: Fishing, BW, Sailing, Masonry (151 beakers researched)
for a total of 730 beakers. 13 hammers into the Barracks + 11 to be added.
Outline:
Start building barracks, research Fishing
Turn 8 Learn Fishing start workboat
Turn 28 BW in, start sailing
Turn 30 WB #1 => WB
Turn 34 (near size 4) whip WB #2
Turn 35 WB #2, start warrior
Turn 41 1 unhappy face
Turn 42 Warrior => Settler (on size 4), start Masonry
Turn 49 Whip settler, for 2 pop
Turn 50 (what you see)

B) Workboats ASAP/"max" hammers
Same techpath as A. Except masonry has 155 beakers in it. => Total 734.
19 hammers into barracks + 1 to be added.
Settler one turn underway and 1 turn closer to growing.
Start building barracks, research Fishing
Turn 8 Learn fishing, start WB.
Turn 11 Work Plains Spices instead of Grass Spices (-1 fpt/+1hpt)
Turn 25 Finish WB #1, Start warrior
Turn 28 BW in, start WB#2
Turn 29 Whip WB#2
Turn 30 Start Warrior
I forget the timing of the warrior, but no unhappy and work barracks if needed.
Turn 41 Size 4, start Settler.
Turn 42 Sailing => Masonry
Turn 48 Whip settler for 2 pop.

C) Religious Russia
Tech Path: Myst, Poly, Fishing (I think we need this sooner rather than later), Masonry, Mono
No BW => No whipping...
Outline:
Turn 27 Hindu founded, revolt to Hindu
Turn 35 Fishing in Start WB #1
Turn 47 WB #1 finish, Start #2
Turn 49 Judaism founded (SPAIN)
74 beakers into Mono for a total of 674 beakers.
13/45 WB + 5 to be added.
46/75 Barracks.
This is the biggest city and we have +1 :) but we missed Judaism. So no fishing untill Mono? => Even less beakers + much less food?
Even taking out fishing, Spain would have beat me. (74 + 88) = 152 out of 268 for mono.

D) Worker
Outline
Research BW, Start warrior
Turn 11 start Worker
Turn 15 continue Warrior (to prevent decay and have the time to do this)
Turn 16 Continue Worker
Turn 20 BW in Revolt, research Fishing, Sailing, Masonry (108 for a total of 687)
Turn 21 Whip worker for 1 pop,
Turn 22 Finish and start warrior
Turn 42 WB #2 finish.
The worker chopped like mad, cutting down 4 forrests and working on #5 (ignoring the copper like I said). 38/150 produced on the settler, need 2 more turns then whip for 2 pop. Setller is 3 turns late vs B but we have an extra worker. Also lost 4 forrests in the process.

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4134/4moscowsmq9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I think I favour B, maybe if indeed there is copper there... this may change things in favour of D.

About the tech path, If we do go for B, we can skip masonry a bit... and pick up some worker techs?
Next up in Moscow would depend I think... Either whip a Worker (for 2) or whip a Lighthouse (for 2).
After the Lighthouse, offcourse we want to have Masonry so we can start on the Great one.... Keeping the overflow from the barracks, worker and lighthouse destined for the Great one... That is about 60 hammers into TGL.
Lets not forget about Currency (+1 trade route) and Castles! (+1 trade route). Castles come with Engineering.
Mid term teching would seem to be:
Alpha, Currency, CoL, Engineering/CS
Are we still thinking Oracle? TGL is going to demand enough hammers I think... and should deliver more Commerce than 600-700 beakers worth in the long run...

*now on to Alg Ore :)*

Oh allmost forget, do we want to setup a plan for GPs? Seems like in SGOTM2 bulbing techs was quite usefull. This month??
We dont (much) need Astronomy, except for the Observatories... maybe...
Techpath: Semi beeline Education??

@namliaM: Could you post your initial save so I could work with it? Thanx in advance. :)

Oh, and thanx for testing! ;)

.

Here is the spoiler from my last testgame where I didn't go for Stonehenge at all. I still missed out on the GLh in 525BC 595BC with eight turns left. But I've got the Oracle. And Hinduism and Monotheism. The spoiler only contains the first 50 turns, though. To be comparable to your 50, namliaM. ;) And I've removed all turns from the autolog where nothing happend.


Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Moscow founded
Research begun: Fishing
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Tech learned: Fishing
Moscow's borders expand
Contact made: French Empire

Turn 8 (3760 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 16 (3520 BC)
Tech learned: Mysticism

Turn 17 (3490 BC)
Research begun: Polytheism

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Contact made: Greek Empire

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Tech learned: Polytheism
Hinduism founded in Moscow
Hinduism has spread: Moscow

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Research begun: Monotheism

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Moscow grows: 4
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 45 (2650 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 46 (2620 BC)
Research begun: Monotheism
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Le fin!
Kind regards all, .

@namliaM: Could you post your initial save so I could work with it? Thanx in advance. :)

Oh, and thanx for testing! ;)

.

I didnt make my own, I stole the 4000BC safe from the practice game...

Checking in.


Trade routes powerful (ToA, GLighthouse, Compass for Harbors, Currency for +1TRoutes)
Religion powerful (the earlier the better)*
Alphabet weak, but selling techs for money very good**
Colossus good (but TGL better)
Tentative tech route: Bronze, Archery? (if no bronze), Fishing, Sailing (start build Lighthouse in city 2, anti-barbs troops in city 1), Masonry (required for GLH), AH, Writing, Mysticism?, Alpha?, Math, Drama, Philo (lightbulb), Metal Casting, Compass, Currency, Monarchy

*alternate path: Stonehenge+Oracle for CoL slingshot and Priests.
** Because of Aggressive AI, the only thing that will happen when we get Alphabet early (after the initial backfill trades) is a ton of demands that we must cave into to improve relations.

Possible GP order: Great Scientists for Acad., Great Sci for Philo then Great Prophet for Taoist Shrine


Depends on if we decide to found Bud/Hin though... very unlikely since we're guaranteed to have religious leaders like Izzy and Hatty on the map.

After reading CFR from start to finish these guys discussed a lot before playing so team participation is mandatory or else. (you get sent to Siberia)

Ok, at least I learned this during the practice game rather than the actual SGOTM: "If in doubt, ask first."

More talk, less play then.

Trade routes: Dont forget Engineering, I know I did... Castles +1 trade route
TGL, Castles, Currency = 5 traderoutes = 5*2 commerce early on...

I will try and run a test on Bronze first, tho I am betting that the 30+ turns delay on the workboats is going to cost dearly.
Why currency after Compass? And why Currency so late?
I expect with such a low production capitol that that one tile or the Plains tile will contain a production source, i.e. Bronze/Iron/Horses. Tho with a Gythar special you never know.
I think I like Fishing, BW, Sailing as the first techs... We can get galleys out fast => More trade routes faster.
Plus bring a scout for potential GH popping, tho there wont be more than 2 or 3 max.
Plus, meet religious civs faster => Earlier religion?
The biggest plus yet, is the early lighthouse => +2 food for "free" :)

AI are seriously bad at popping huts on foreign islands.

We then want masonry in time to start working on TGL...
Something like (The wheel =>) Pottery after Sailing for the Granary (Growth => more Whip) followed by Writing (OBs) for exploring.
If moscow needs to slow down on growing we can pop down a town across the water and share (one of) the clams for growing that.

We can handle early barbs with Warrior fogbusting I expect, assuming our starting island is not that big...

I think TGL and Oracle is going to be tight and a big drain on our production abilities if we dont find any Marble (soon).
TGL with 2*2 free commerce per city, in say 5 cities... 20 free commerce per turn. 5 turns to 100 commerce, if we translate that commerce into say 70% beakers, thats 70 beakers in 5 turns.
So in 50 turns (after settling town #5 offcourse) we have equalled (700 beakers) the Oracle and doing better.

I think this may well be one game where it pays off to stay neutral for a long while, i.e. stay in NSR due to the great benifit of trade routes.
Also this will allow us to switch to AI religion when the ask us to, giving us a perminant +1 :)
The "brothers and sisters of the fait" is not perminant IIRC.

Currency is that late on the list since we probably won't be researching it (trading it) and that starting on Colossus and GLib as early as possible is better than Currency which we can pick up anytime. Besides, with GLighthouse, we already have 3 trade routes per coastal city and I don't think an additional one will make any more difference, unless we lose GLighthouse and that's when we should pick up Currency earlier.

I wouldn't count on us being on a deserted island like on the practice game. Maybe it will be a bigger snaky island.

All below have been mentioned (in no particular order):
+ TGLighthouse
+ Colossus
+ TGLib
+ Oracle
+ ToA

Geez, where are we going to find all these hammers? Not in our capitol that is for sure...
Do we really want to be aiming to building all these wonders? We will have to prioritize some I think....

I am not counting on anything... I am even taking into account we have one big Pangea...
One thing I think we can be sure of is that we can circumvent the world by galley... I have generated a few maps, and this was allways possible...

Rameses is not on the map so that's one less Oracle-wannabe. HCapac (IND/FIN) is however, on the map and that's a very bad thing.

Capital city has good food and would be doing our settlers, workers. Maybe Lighthouse -> GLighthouse also since it has trees.

Second city (hopefully a production city) can start on the Lighthouse->GLighthouse immediately then ToA. I think we could just forego the Oracle since it's probably a lost cause against HC. Or probably get Metal Casting for free if we actually win.

Third city for military.

Colossus can be built later. GLib must be built in the capital (somehow!)

EDIT: I was looking at the 50 turns tryouts you posted and I'd also pick B (except we should be building a non-great Lighthouse and not Barracks). Even with no copper, Archers would do well in the jungles north of our capital (assuming we're not on the deserted island like in the practice game).

Warriors will do for a while, untill Axemen show up....

Why not build barracks/Lighthouse??

Barracks is the only thing that will hold the hammers from turn 0-8 and survive the Workboat builds (some 20 turns long).
Units start to degrade to soon, IIRC after 10 turns, they start losing 1 hammer/turn. The first workboat takes 16 turns, which would leave only 1 or 2 hammers at the time the 2nd workboat is started on a warrior.

Lighthouse = +2 food = allways good. I recon we can build TGLight in the capitol before city #2 even finish its Lighthouse.
Whip the barracks for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into TGLight
Build the lighthouse, while we grow... whip for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into into GLight
Build some warrior or Granary.... grow to 4
Start worker with the extra food, whip for 2, put 25+ overflow into TGLight

Notice we allready have 80+ hammers now into TGLight... Growing base 2 to base 4 takes 13 turns working the clams and FP. Offcourse this yields (near) no hammers of its own... but whippin' workers and settlers is more efficient than growing them...

I.e. size 4 working 2 clams, FP + Grass Spice.
Whip settler and recover 2 pop = 17 turns
Full build the settler = 19 turns

Offcourse this comes at the cost of some commerce =>
4 turns at size 2 => 4*2 commerce = 8 commerce
4 turns at size 3 => 4*1 commerce = 4 commerce => Total 12
But gets the settler out 10 turns earlier, which in itself pays (nearly) for the 12 commerce loss
and free's up production in the capitol for something else
and allows our new city to produce earlier

By my estimations/calculations... If we want to, we could have settler #2 out by turn 64 and have 26 hammers left over to stick into something else (i.e. Lighthouse -90- or Warrior -22-) inbetween settler #1 and settler #2.

Oh we need a worker too offcourse... So I made attached spreadsheet... and try to calculate... I think I got it right... So in order of build, each time whipping the worker/settler for 2 pop... Keeping moscow more or less at size 4.
+ 8 hammers from the first 8 turns
2 workboats (2nd boat is a 1 pop whip)
Warrior
Settler
26 hammers/Grow to 4
Settler
22 hammers/Grow to 4
Worker
57 hammers/Grow to 4
Worker
57 hammers/Growing towards 4

+ 26 + 22 + 57 + 57 = 162 hammers inbetween the settlers/workers to go someplace
At turn 92.... and we do have now 15 turns of whip angry pop to get over... i.e. hand build worker or settler? Or work forrests/plain spice for a few turns losing commerce gaining hammers. Or grow into angry 6 pop to whip something for 3 pop (TGLight?)

The first 90 hammers IMHO can go into Lighthouse... giving Moscow more food :). Leaving something like 72 hammers for something else...

Meanwhile gathering up a grand total of 1250 commerce/beakers (not counting new cities or trade routes to other civs)

Disclaimer: I sure hope I got this right... I intend to play test this this evening... Will probably find a bug or 2...

Edit, 28 nov 2006, 09:48 local time: Removed V1 spreadsheet after only 2 views...
V2 can be found in post post number 45 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4812938&postcount=45)

Definitely an effective plan namliaM which will need careful consideration by all players including myself. I will look at the zip and do some math too but as usual I am sure you are on the right path. I really do think TGLighthouse is paramount. Also I do like the idea of selling techs as that's what is keeping us going in the practice game too. It seems to me that the AI doesn't do nearly as well on this type of map. That may work to our advantage. I do feel too though that we will need a religion of sorts whether early or late as it will help making friends. I would like to hear more from Bobrath on the game too. Hey Bob you have been nominated team leader (1 vote) but after discussions with other players on the phone some feel that Greyfox could fill that role too. We feel that the team leader should keep the team motivated, regular rosters, make a decision based on consensus and make grumpy comments. Geez who does that sound like. I am sure it doesn't matter to Bob who is team leader (I could be wrong) but I am changing my nomination to Greyfox since I do like "the cut of his jib". And as Frankcor said in another thread just keep it out of sight please. LOL

PS: we need someone to keep these crazy Dutchmans in line. (just two one is Flemish and as namliaM pointed out I am Canadian but hey I love The Netherlands as much as Canada.)

Whip the barracks for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into TGLight

namliaM I am confused about this statement. I tried it out but the overflow goes into the next build and TGLight isn't available until we build lighthouse. Am I missing something? So wouldn't it be better to start with a lighthouse whip that and put overflow into TGL. (then it would be available)

The Glighthouse is 300 hammers so it would take basically 12 rounds of overflow or somewhat less for us to get it. That would have also take into consideration happiness factor and growth. Growth is pretty quick with FP/and two clams but even so wouldn't it take a long time to build the TGL.

I did look at you excel sheet (first sheet) and concur with your timeline. Will get into it more and wow that is a lot of work. Also Robo I want to thank you for the practise SGTOM it helped me understand namliaM methodology.

Lurker Sign-in:

Cosmichail invited me to sign-in here. I'll be paying close attention and taking names. Don't make me kibbitz!

Hi, Robo Kai! Never played with you before. But that ain't hard since I haven't been playing a lot of SG's. Welcome! :goodjob:

More talk, less play then.
Yes! :)

Hey Bob you have been nominated team leader (1 vote) but after discussions with other players on the phone some feel that Greyfox could fill that role too.
Since I've been one of the players on the phone (skype) I hereby declare that I'm fine with both. But if pressed I'd vote for GreyFox due to his rather unique way (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4786110&postcount=32) of straightening things out. ;) No offence meant, bob.

We've also been discussing that it might be good to decide on a few more crucial things than getting caught up in "detail-discussions" - like I, for example, did. :blush:

Things that've been on our mind:

Do we wanna go for a ...

... diplomatic victory, or
... space victory?

Is our priority in playing this SGOTM set to ...

... primarily having a lot of fun?
... gaining experience and raising decent discussions?
... getting the laurels?

Multiple goals are obviously possible here!
Do we want to have our decisions made ...

... purely democratically, or
... mostly democratically with a team leader who can force and/or veto them if needed?



Just asking! My votes would be the following, though:

1. a
2. b thereby a with more b following. Hence: c! (Hopefully!) :mischief:
3. b

Teamleader: GreyFox

And finally, welcome frankcor. Here man, have this: :whipped:! Use it wisely. ;) :p

Regards to all, .

Since I've been one of the players on the phone (skype) I hereby declare that I'm fine with both. But if pressed I'd vote for GreyFox due to his rather unique way (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4786110&postcount=32) of straightening things out. ;) No offence meant, bob.

... and since I am also one of the "phoney" players my vote is also on record, with similar non-offensive intentions towards bob.

As for the rest of dot's post, yes those points have all been on my mind too... Thanks for posting them for me! :p ;)

As for the rest of dot's post, yes those points have all been on my mind too... Thanks for posting them for me! :p ;)
You're welcome. ;)

You mean I don't even have to campaign? Excellent. I vote for GreyFox as well!

That's what I like about you Bob you are easy going and did a great job leading SGOTM02 to victory. Maybe we didn't win any laurels but we did finish the game in the top 10. Of course there is a question of scribe and I am volunteering (I must be nuts) but anyone who is a good writer itching to do this is more than welcome.

I felt that the subject of leader had to be discussed since we are nearing the save very soon. I do agree with Dot's choices and feel that a team leader must have the final say when there is dfference of opinion. Most of us have played together and now understand better our motivations. Robo Kai has put up a practice SGOTM and has demonstrated his skills there in that the game is going quite well. I hope it will is mirrored in this game. namliaM/Dot both have demonstrated different approaches which are worth considering. I suggest everyone take a look at namliaM spreadsheets to see and understand his approach. This looks to me to be quite a bit of work and it is great to see so many players taking such efforts already.

We all acknowledge the Great Lighthouse is very important for this type of map and our success. The question is do we whip it, through use of overflow or we build it in a more productive city. I think we should build it fairly soon as the AI will go for that too. I like the idea of early religion but in order to do any kind of whipping early we will need BW fairly soon. Definitely we are agreed that fishing must be first for any kind of success in teching quickly and quick growth for whipping. Looking forward to starting this soon.

The only player we need to hear from is Furrie but he is OOP until tomorrow I think at which I will leave him a PM to remind him of the thread and to check in.

Having 8 players is imo a strength since it will take the heat off a player if a skip is needed. CFR awoke me to the power of lightbulbing. (lightbulbed Astro very early in bypassing certain techs.) This too has a food rich city may be something worth considering when we get near Mass Media.

OK I stop now don't want to leave long posts and should learn from Bob. Short and sweet......

We've also been discussing that it might be good to decide on a few more crucial things than getting caught up in "detail-discussions" - like I, for example, did.


1. Backdoor diplomatic is the way to go. space takes too long but it is always a backup option.
2. A B & C - Win and learn at the same time. Not bad!
3. b - I'd prefer a leader with an iron fist named "Veto".

good analysis, namliaM. I really appreciate the enthusiams and effort namliaM always put in for SGOTM ... now, if only he does that for Fox04 ... :lol:

So in summary, we should start barracks, switch to WorkBoat when fishing is in, possibly switching back to barracks after the first workboat, and whipping the barracks to get hammer overflow to a second work boat? Or is it better to get the 2nd workboat normally, and whip the barracks for lighthouse?

--

Re: Dot's MCQ (Multiple Choice Question):

1. Right, backdoor is definitely the way to go ... but you will be surprised how fast good player can nab a space win on an archipelago map ... (see kylerean's Epic 2 or 3 report ... launching at 1880)

2. Have fun, learn, don't care much abt winning.

3. Why do we need someone with veto power, unless that someone is one of the 1K3S: Kylerean, Sirian, Sullla, Soren? No, its a SG, I say whoever that is UP has veto power on his turns. He can damn well play as he/she please, but be prepared to be cirticized by Yours Grumpiness :cooool: ... ... (and whipped by frankcor ... by the way, welcome! Time for you to scrutinized my play and send me to the woodshed :lol:).


--

...but be prepared to be criticized by Yours Grumpiness...and whipped by frankcor...
Good enough for me. Not much different from having dictators. :lol:

LOL... Well the fun part allready is out there...

About the workboats... The best thing to do, I think, is
1) Start Barracks, work the FP
2) Switch to WB as soon as Fishing is in, keep working FP
3) Add Plains Spice on size 2
4) Start WB #2 directly after that, work Clams + FP as soon as the first WB has netted them
5) As soon as BW is in, revolt and whip the WB
6) Produce a warrior for MP, working the high foods allways.

Or atleast that is the way I did it... Would be intresting to see if someone can come up with something (near) like this... Which is alternate, but more good for the long term. My plan = 3 cities early (max 13 pop)... but on low pop. Having a reliable religion shot for example ups the happy by 2 (State Religion + Temple) which has 2 cities at pop 13... with way less maintenance...

@Cosmichail. The whipping of the barracks doesnt happen in the first 90 turns. We just put some hammers in, but leave more than 45 hammers to be produced. This way it still needs 2 pop to whip.
Also I said 25+ which is at normal speed, offcourse I mean 40+ per 2 pop whip (whip2 in the spreadsheet).
Yes there were multiple sheets there, but only one worked out to 90+ turns. I tried some alternatives.... but none seemed to work. Also the amount of work involved was not that big... I do this kind of thing for my employement too so... ;)

On the matter of TGLight... I personaly find that wonders depending on buildings i.e. Colossus/TGL (both) come kind off slowish in compared to i.e. Pyramids which can be build off hand.... at any time.
That beeing said... I am unsure how much TGLight costs, in particular at Epic speed. Also I know that whipping wonders carries a penalty, but we can whip for say 3 pop to finish it, guestimation: TGLight should be able to finish prior to turn 150 I think... At which point we should also have (I hope) Writing for some OBs and have meet some neighbours for some nice commerce.

Colossus IMHO, unless we have copper is way over rated...

I (obviously) didnt get to play test last night...

I did some more looking into the excel sheet and found a bug or 2 as to be expected... I guess...

Find attached a better version worked out to turn 101, where we now have 2 the same as in the previous version except now I take i.e. Revolting to slavery into account which I didnt do before.
This 1 turn causes the MP warrior to move back a turn or 2, which catapults into the 2nd worker to be turn 101 instead of turn 92.

Offcourse I will try and shake things up...
Now we/I do (more or less):
2 workboats
Warrior
2 settlers
2 workers
I wonder what will happen if I would interchange the Settler/worker to something like:
2 Workboats
Warrior
Settler
Worker
Settler
Worker
This will (I think) give the lighthouse earlier => more food = better? Offcourse this will delay the second settler some...

Bug: I allready found a small bug in this sheet. It is in the production of the barracks.... in turn 50, but doesnt change either the Lighthouse or Workers...

One thing abt settlers ... you are assuming we have room on the starting island for 3 cities .... looks likely from the map, but may not be valid if most of the northern fogged tiles are coastal.

Abt the workers ... do we need 2 workers so soon? FWICS, you are not researching the necessary workers techs: wheel, pottery, argicultuire.

I would prefer switching back to barracks and let the city grow after the 2 workboats ... it will hasten worker/settler anyway with more foods.

--

Jsut read Gyathaar's post in maintenance thread, and I noticed the blue circles. Now, blue circle is where the computer think its a good site, suggesting that there be resources nearby.

So, chances there are resources to the east and north in the fog, since none of the visible resources is within the BCF of the second blue circle.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg

Just a reminder for myself so I don't have to keep swotching pages:
Peter: Expansive, Philosophical, starts with Hunting and Mining.

I was never good with memorizing such things ...

OOooooh, nice :whipped: Thanks! I'll keep it well oiled. But from the looks of this team, it'll get little use.

What are the odds of that tile in the fog to the east of the city being a food resource? Agriculture or Animal Husbandry may have to be slotted into your research path.

With allready 2 food sources and 2 (calander) luxe sources (tho 2 of 1 ... so only 1 :) :( ) I think the odds are low or even near zero that that tile will contain a food source....
The odds IMHO are slightly better for a hammer source (i.e. stone or even a strategic source like Iron)
The biggest odds are, there is nothing there..... but grassland...

The scout moving East-North east, onto that forrest plains hill will/should reveal all we need to know.

About the 2 settlers Fox... Well I am hoping we have atleast room to make a second city.
Sailing will finish on the turn the warrior finishes... Therefor leaving some 18 turns to have the second city produce a galley if need be.... At 4 food/2 hammers (working i.e. a grass forrest) it will take the second city 17 turns to grow to size 2. Adding 17 * 2 = 34 hammers. A galley = 75, so whip that 1 pop and we have right on time a Galley to transport our (unescorted!) settler.

And the workers.... We have plenty time to get them something to do...

unescorted is a bad thing (TM) ... :nono: there is something called barbies ... but they won't appear in Monarch until like 2600BC. So if our settler moves off before than, it is okay I guess.

I am not convinced on the 2nd worker though. It's better to have the city grow than to waste time building a worker which we don't need right away. There's hardly things for 1 worker to do as it is, let alone 2.

Workers you can never have to many of them I think... And the build was just an example... also trying to get to some comparison of 0, 1 or 2 workboats... And really I find that 2 workboats is the best way I think...

The reason of a city not growing is why I like whipping settlers and workers.
I for one would like to look into a Settler => Lighthouse => Worker
or Lighthouse => Settler => Worker
situation after the initial warrior.

The first settler right now comes unescorted at turn 49 which is OK as we have the scout which can probably fogbust for us.

The second settler is where I am thinking of pulling the lighthouse in... Workboats and Lighthouse are our worker for Moscow, early on!

We could also delay our first settler some turns in favour of the lighthouse, which would then be whiped instead of the settler. The Lighthouse can be whipped at turn 40-ish (from memory) 1 turn after the warrior finishes at with moscow at size 4. This ups the food from the 2 clams from 8 => 10 Who needs a granary? with +9 food per turn at size 3 (2 Clams + FP)

The first settler however will be delayed by some 10 turns... (from memory again)... and will still be unescorted except for the initial scout and warrior.

From the screeny of the starting spot you can be sure there is atleast 3 more tiles hiding in the fog north of the scout. Thus also one can be sure there will atleast be a spot much like the practice game available, not sure about the cow or the fishies tho...

Edit: I dont think there will be enough hiding in the fog to make up for losing those 2 clams....

Edit: I dont think there will be enough hiding in the fog to make up for losing those 2 clams....

I agree we need those resources.

Also I kind of figured that had something to do with your work namliaM. You probably can do that in your sleep. I use spreadsheets too but more for bookkeeping.

The only thing on my mind is the TGlighthouse. Those trade routes on this map really can give us a boost and that AI (new improved) builds it really fast now so I don't think we should delay and do whatever it takes to get it whether the second/third city and whip/chop etc. etc. So getting two workers isn't so bad as we have lots of forests there and since BW will be needed for whipping it would also aid in chopping especially hills in the north as mines will be needed anyways.

As to religion if we go with this plan then that won't happen early. We could eventually put up specialist to aid in that but will need tech path opened up. Now can a scientist give COL or only philosophy? So writing shouldn't be too far off either for scientist in Moscow as we will need GP's to pop certain techs and maybe get us a religion.

Hi team!

It seems to me that most of you kind of agree on not going for one of the early three religions.
I really dislike it but will go with it if y'all think so. :( I'd really like to see us go for a true diplomatic victory rather than backdoor. If that would mean that we'd miss the laurels I'd accept that. I'd rather like that challenge! :groucho: :) Just my $0.02, anyway.

-----------------------------------

Edit:
TGLight should be able to finish prior to turn 150 I think...
From my second testgame:

Turn 127 (595 BC)
dot's comment: Napoleon finishes The Great Lighthouse. Would've been 8 turns to go!End of Edit.
Workers you can never have to many of them I think [...] And really I find that 2 workboats is the best way I think...
:agree:

From the screeny of the starting spot you can be sure there is atleast 3 more tiles hiding in the fog north of the scout. Thus also one can be sure there will atleast be a spot much like the practice game available, not sure about the cow or the fishies tho...
Yes ... I think so, too. But what one can also see from the screeny of the starting spot is that the GSpices should be 2/0/1 rather than 2/1/1. :crazyeye: ;) - Just something I noticed when having a look at the excelsheet. Else, excel-lent sheet! :clap:

OOooooh, nice :whipped: Thanks! I'll keep it well oiled. But from the looks of this team, it'll get little use.
Hopefully true. Maybe these will be of more use for you: :gripe: and :worship:. ... ;) :p

-----------------------------------

Oh, and finally: HOF 2.08.002 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.002.exe). I thought I'd post a link here to make it more comfortable for everyone. It is required for the SGOTM3 as AlanH posted here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4814314&postcount=40). :goodjob:

Regards, .

@Dot

I hear ya on the "dislike". I too would like to see it happen but heres something to think about. If we go that route and we get beat then we will waste that research in the beginning that is vital. In SGOTM once you do something you cannot change it so decisions have to be made that offer the best long term solution.

So if we get Moscow growing and no whipping ability then we have to use turn off growth which personally I refuse to do. Why? I always forget about and wonder why the heck it won't grow now. Yes religion helps to grow what by one and if temple is built another. (happiness of course)

Choosing your first techs is tough but for sure BW will be needed with such a whippable city. In namliaM's plan that is the second tech researched after fishing and speeds up the remaining workboats/settlers/worker etc since there is good growth there. Nothing like Kyoto mind you (well close three very good food resources and who knows what is hidden in that tile to the east.) We also should farm the heck out of Moscow too and use it for GP farm. City to the north could be production center.

If we were starting with mysticism I would feel more confident about getting our first religion early. I just have had too many games where that one time the AI chose polytheism and lost out. DOH.....
I have too had a lot of games where even not starting with mysticism got Hinduism, but it didn't do me any good because AI founds their own but that's because I am warmonger and don't like being weak and usually go for military techs.

Thanx Cosmic.

I hear y'all on hinduism being a bad gamble. Reasons why I'd prefer going that route:


For some strange reason I'd like to have plenty of religions. I can't really tell why. :confused:
Given that we manage to spread an early religion widely it will benefit us as follows:

Espionage benefit.
:commerce: benefit.
Traderoute stability! I've reckoned that the gain from a traderoute rises with time - up to 9 :commerce: is what I've reached. I don't know if it's reset to 1 :commerce: when OB have been cancelled and renegotiated. (:help: anyone?) But if so an early religion contributes to our commerce even without a shrine!
The diplo+ for being brothers and sisters of the faith (until FR).
Thereby maybe getting more DP's.
Having early partners in war if we manage to seperate one of our neighbors (off whom we want to take some land) by faith!
Cultural boost if we don't pick a state religion early.
Cultural boost in FR.
Possibly being the ones in charge to form political blocks if we get a lot of the religions.

I'm sorry to keep bothering you with this. It somehow seems wrong to me to go for diplo without more than one religion. I think I'd give in more easily if we'd go for SpaceRace. :sad:

Regards, .

Hi team!

It seems to me that most of you kind of agree on not going for one of the early three religions.
I really dislike it but will go with it if y'all think so. :( I'd really like to see us go for a true diplomatic victory rather than backdoor. If that would mean that we'd miss the laurels I'd accept that. I'd rather like that challenge! :groucho: :) Just my $0.02, anyway.
It seems to me we have to pick up Fishing as the first tech and start getting out those workboats... This pretty much eliminates the early religions for me anyway... You seem to agree...
To get those 2 boats ASAP we also need to follow it up by BW, this totaly blows our chances of early religion I think. Better to aim for a later one (Taoism?) or none at all and take one on that spreads to us, let the AI care about building shrines.

I too would like the challange of a true diplo game, this can still be true... Cause if we can get one or 2 AI to vote for us, that would really help.
In a normal 7 civ game I find it hard enough to keep folks like Alex from turning on me (either fisicaly or voting) let alone with 18 civs on the map.
At the very least we need to thin the potential way voters and we want/need some more land to control than just 5 cities I think....

Turn 127 (595 BC)
dot's comment: Napoleon finishes The Great Lighthouse. Would've been 8 turns to go
Ouch :mischief:

Yes ... I think so, too. But what one can also see from the screeny of the starting spot is that the GSpices should be 2/0/1 rather than 2/1/1. :crazyeye: ;) - Just something I noticed when having a look at the excelsheet. Else, excel-lent sheet! :clap:
This is a bug in the testgame! The testgame has a forrest on that tile!
*goes back to drawing board*

Oh, and finally: HOF 2.08.002 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.002.exe). Got it!

1 Cause you are a religious junky! You are hereby peanalised and have to play 2 games at Prince without building one Temple or Monastary and you may not addopt a state religion.

2b True nice gold to be had from shrines. But
I) We need to burn GPs to build shrines, I would rather have scientists burn on tech, than Profits on shrines. Let Isabella burn the profits and we will take the shrines from her cold hands.
II) Gold we get (a lot) of from selling techs.
III) From selling techs we also get (temporary?) + modifiers

2c Negative . trade route commerce is a result of a couple of things:
I) Recieving city (our city) size
II) Sending city (AI city) size
III) Distance between the 2 cities.
Not by how long the trade routes have been there.

2d yes + for brothers, but also - for heithens with others. This plan will ONLY work if we can manage to have 1 religion for say >10 civs.
Any civ that founds their own religion, will 75% sure switch to it. So we must hunt atleast 2 of the early 3 (i.e. HinJu) AND be succesfull at it AND be lucky that only one spreads around.
I think this is one game where it can pay of big time if we can manage to stay neutral. i.e. No religion... and pick our opponents and friends carefully once the world has taken shape (i.e. we explored a lot and have OBs with near every AI to fill up those trade routes)

We can still grab atleast 2 religions quite easily: Islam and Taoism. Even Confious maybe if we are lucky!
I think due to the lack of Myst and the need for Fishing and BW we are pretty screwed for any of the 3 early ones...

Just happend on skype!

[20:55:40] dot :

"[20:50:54] Scowler : Think about what limitations there may be for both us and the AI"

a) good spots to settle
b) low production
c) hard to defend if your nation stretches out
d) need a decent fleet, else war is difficult
e) only a few cottages >> TGL IS important

a) Probably quite a few food rich cities around (i.e. capitols, look at the practice game)
b) Low production, for sure... which is why I am not sure we want to be cutting down those forrests
c) Not sure... (F)
d) True which is why it is archipelago
e) Limitted land = limitted opportunity to cottage... Tho on the other hand it is tropical = Jungle = Grassland = Cottage?!

F) AI suck at landing units. i.e. war should not be to hard (defensively). IMHO.
G) On average, in my games the AI have a (much) bigger fleet than I have.

Getting some good productive cities is going to be important that is for sure.

Re: Drawing board... Not that much to go back to... We simply work a normal Grass forrest instead of the Spice. Offcourse this does cost us 1 commerce/turn, but that doesnt kick in untill turn 40. At which time (if we choose to research, Fishing, BW, Sailing) we can have sailing allready.

Dot, can you post your test game(s) I would like to try another map other than the test game....

Gonna reply to your next to last post later namliaM, thanx. The save at 4000BC can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4803752&postcount=15). ;) I've only had that one of which I reported here!

It seems to me we have to pick up Fishing as the first tech and start getting out those workboats... This pretty much eliminates the early religions for me anyway... You seem to agree...
Fishing did the trick commerce-wise, I think!

Nope. I still think that an early religion is possible. And that it actually NEEDS fishing! But I'm no more for an early religion. :eek:

I too would like the challange of a true diplo game, this can still be true... Cause if we can get one or 2 AI to vote for us, that would really help.
In a normal 7 civ game I find it hard enough to keep folks like Alex from turning on me (either fisicaly or voting) let alone with 18 civs on the map.
At the very least we need to thin the potential way voters and we want/need some more land to control than just 5 cities I think....

Nice to hear read that. I agree and think that taking out another civ early would be nice since we probably won't get as many - for you have attacked our friend.

1 Cause you are a religious junky! You are hereby peanalised and have to play 2 games at Prince without building one Temple or Monastary and you may not addopt a state religion.
Religious Junky reporting for duty. :salute: I promise to play at least two games with the given variants by 01/31/07 and post them. :)

2c Negative . trade route commerce is a result of a couple of things:
I) Recieving city (our city) size
II) Sending city (AI city) size
III) Distance between the 2 cities.
Not by how long the trade routes have been there.
I'm firstly pleased and secondly flattered:

I've learned a lot! Thanx. Do you have a link at hand?
Being adressed as (b).(/b). Thank you very much! :D

...
I think this is one game where it can pay of big time if we can manage to stay neutral. i.e. No religion... and pick our opponents and friends carefully once the world has taken shape (i.e. we explored a lot and have OBs with near every AI to fill up those trade routes)
As I've already replied to the third quote in this post I'd actually like to go the "don't pick up a religion" route. I do that in most of my games. I just like to found them! :p ;) :)

Edit: Maybe use the Oracle for Theology, pick no SR but Theocracy to make sure we pick up noone's religion so noone can ask us?

We can still grab atleast 2 religions quite easily: Islam and Taoism. Even Confious maybe if we are lucky!
I think due to the lack of Myst and the need for Fishing and BW we are pretty screwed for any of the 3 early ones...
Maybe even Theology/Christianity for the Sistine Chapel?

Regards, .

Not by how long the trade routes have been there.

In warlords however it depends on how long you have been at peace with the other civ..

@namliaM, dot: I did not say we don't need more workers, ever. I am saying we don't need more than 1 worker in the early game ... there's absolutely nothing a second worker can do, except sit down there and act busy (like what a lot of workers do in real life :lol:)

I have a recent game where I built (only) 1 worker, thinking there should be more than enough for the worker to do ... ended up I was force to divert my research to wheel so that he can do something useful instead of farming all the tiles which I would soon change to cottages. And that is not an archipelago map (it is Terran).

Monarch's happiness limit is not so high that "the fact that city is not growing while building worker/settler" would become useful.

You still need to show me why we need 2 workers prior to turn 100, where growing the city more would mean much more (commerce, whipping, etc).

--

I thought there was a recommended 1 worker per city early game?

We may have noticed in SGOTM3 practice that we seem to be getting by with a "minimal navy". Which may not be a good idea...

In warlords however (the value of trade routes) depends on how long you have been at peace with the other civ..
Ooh, didn't know that! Thanks, Gyathaar!

I thought there was a recommended 1 worker per city early game?

If there is something for the workers to do ... my point is, there isn't until we learn wheel, argiculture, pottery!!!! Till then, we are better off growing and delaying extra workers ...

If we are going for The Greatlighthouse we will have to do it well before 775BC as I noticed in Dot's tryout game nappy got it by turn 127 and in my try out game 775bc. (Robos game) I would like to see us get that as it really would be more effective than colossus and agree that we don't need 2 workers so early.

Going for early religion is a crapshoot with 50% odds according to my tryout using Robo's practice game but worked better with Dots. It may be in Robos game the AI with mys has got better commerce than Dots. Now I know that basing it on two games isn't much but I still believe with so many AI players we may be taking a big risk going for early religion. I would rather take the risk and try to get TGL since that will payoff big until economics.

Just how fast can we do it in capitol with whipping and overflow. I would like to see namliaM come up with excel calculations for that since he is quite good at it. If possible it needs to be built by at least 800BC at the latest or earlier. Show me your magic namliaM. I think if we are on island by ourselves we could take the chance for such a big payoff but somewhat at the expense of expansion. I think it's the only wonder we will ever need.

Uhm peace huh Gyathaar... Funny, but I never check traderoute yields... or basicaly am not aware of them... they are just there... Sorry . dont have a link to trade routes.... just 'common' knowledge I read somewhere.
About the peace. I think we want total annihilation of civs we attack...

Fox, I am not saying we need 2 workers. I just used this to try and work out what the best "plan" was/is. i.e. do we want/need the 2 workboats and what impact does it have if we go religious and delay the workboats.

I also now have a variant in Excel which give me TGLight around turn 100.
We build the workboats, Warrior, Settler, Lighthouse, Barracks and worker.
The 2nd workboat, Settler, Lighthouse (62), barracks (78) and worker (94) all get whipped, Overflows from the latter 3 go into TGLight which finishes it at turn 103 with a 2 pop whip (not sure about the penalty for whipping a wonder tho!)
So we may need to delay it a few turns. but prior to 110 seems very doable, which gives us a 17 turn accoording to Cosmichael and . .
If the land allows us we could exchange the worker for a Settler. This variant I will studdy too.
"I studdied on stealing TGLight." => To "coin" a phrase.

I do think that early on also AI dont have that much navy + what navy they have is slow moving. Therefor we can probably manage with a skeleton navy. Eventually we want a somewhat bigger navy I think....

I have a question about "Magellan's Voyage"... to Circumnavigate the globe, is it possible to, say piece the map of the globe together through buying maps and then get +1 movement doing so?

Yes, Robo, yes. You don't need to actually circumnavigate ... all you need to do is to provide evidence that the globe is ... er, well, a globe (and not a flat piece of land supported by a tower of turtles).

--

Robo, as Greyfox pointed out, your map must show at least one exposed tile for every Longitude column of tiles. You can always tell when the AI is having trouble circumnavigating; they come begging for map trades.

In one SG, we found that we couldn't sail all the way around the world because the route was blocked by ice and land. But we popped a hut and the villagers gave us a map that revealed enough to give us the bonus next turn.

I find myself a little stuck with the first 8 hammers/turns, untill we can start Workboats.
A worker first build doesnt make sence to me...
If we put the hammers into a unit they start to decay pretty soon, IIRC after 10 turns.
The first workboat (hand build) takes 17 turns. So by the time that finish the first 8 hammers are gone allready.
So put the hammers into a building. OK This must be barracks, as it is the only building available.
By the time we get back around to that, i.e. 2 WBs-Warrior-Settler-Lighthouse-Barracks we are talking turn 60 and they are gone again.

But then... If we build a full Warrior first we delay the first workboat 4 turns to turn 31.
The next turn we can whip the second workboat immediatly (3 turn delay).
Fo = Food, Ha = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow. Totals at turn 33.
- Fo Ha Com S
X 15 06 299 2 Warrior - WB - WB
Y 32 09 304 2 Waste 8 - WB - WB - Warrior
We are out a total of 17 food and 5 commerce. We gained 3 hammers, hmz this means we lose 5 of the initial 8 hammers anyway due to lost growing allready....
Then we can start working the settler some turns later (want to grow to 4 first, just to compare for now). Eventually delaying the settler to turn 52 instead of 49.
Plus in this scenario we grow allways a few (3?) turns later. Losing hammers/commerce all game long.
Building the full warrior first seems to delay our game by 3 turns.
My conclusion: Wasting the 8 hammers is better than building anything usefull...

I also tried a few scenarios for the first settler (all starting from Y above):
Fo = Food, Ham = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow, SA = Settler Away.
Totals at turn 55, production after the settler. This is including production that is produced inbetween the builds.
- Fo Ham Com S SA
A 04 017 690 3 46 WB-WB-Settler @ Size 2
B 13 026 715 3 47 WB-WB-Grow 3 turns (add 3 hammers)-Settler @ Size 3
C 07 021 720 3 49 WB-WB-Warroir (=grow to 4)-Settler @ Size 4
D 21 028 722 3 53 WB-WB-Warrior-Grow to 5 (add 10 hammers)-Settler @ Size 5
E 01 031*722 3 56 WB-WB-Warrior-Warrior-Grow to 6 (add 16 hammers)-Settler @ Size 6

* On E I allready deducted the hammers for the settler which is to be build the next turn.

A vs B: B has more of everything, except the settler is 1 turn later.
B vs C: we have an extra warrior in C for MP in Moscow, settler 2 turns later.
C vs D: 13 food, 7 hammers positive for D, but settler 4 turns later.
D vs E: E gains 3 hammers and a Warrior (escort), but losses 20 food and the settler is 3 turns later.

So which is the smarter choice?

Something I noticed, which slipped my mind for some reason... We have a 50% (hammer) bonus on building workers, whipping = hammers.

A worker is something that simply has to be whipped this game ! ! ! ! !

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7416/workerproductionba7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
It kindof works like this:
1) Put 1 turn at size 4 into a worker
Working 2 Clams + Plains Spice forrest + Grass Forrest, Moscow (which allready has a lighthouse) produces 2+5+5+1+2=13 food of which 4*2=8 is eaten. 7 Food surplus into the worker.
1+2+1= 4 hammers + 2 bonus, total 13
2) The next turn we have 13/90 produced on the worker, Whip for 2 pop, adding 135 hammers (2*45 * 150%) total 148
3) Add 7 more (6 food surplus + 1 hammer) to finish it next turn.
155 - 90 = 65 overflow, which go down by beeing devided again by 150%: 65 / 150% = 43.333 hammers overflow into the next project.
4) This appearently gets rounded up, or there is a small rounding issue....

Anyway, for a total of 2 pop (normaly 90 hammers) + 19 food + 5 hammers we get 1 worker and 44 hammers.

:thanx:

Master of Proper Whipping! (MPW(TM))! :thumbsup: ... I've noticed a typo. :p

2+5+5+1+2=13
:dubious:
Regards, .

LOL Notice tho that 13 - 8 = 7...

2+5+5+1+2=13 should offcourse total 15 as is reflected by 13-8= 7.

Only one respons tho ? And no one commenting on the settler options... :sad:

Even got a trademark for that too aye dot. Wow after playing this kind of map on my own I begin to realize the point Scowler is making. Metals are normally hard to come by on this type of map. I think we are going to need to be aggressive in scouting for good settling sites and necessary resources. What I also notice is the lack of luxury resources too although our first screenies show two spices. I really hope that's more land back there.

Regarding metals IW is going to be needed fairly soon as well and the more I think about it early religion just isn't feasible for numerous reasons:

1. We need BW early and good thing we have mining
2. Without iron we are basically screwed so it needs to be prioritized.

Ok we can build maces/grens (with copper) just fine but how the heck do you get the transports safely to the enemy without frigates. (yep they need iron of course everyone knows that) Crossbow/pikes/knights all need iron too. So we should get the tech soon and find it shortly thereafter and settle to get it.

What of the "cossacks". Horses are also hard to find on this type of map and you find you self spread out having to defend different islands which is a logistic nightmare. Having low sea level is going to be a pain since the landmasses are larger giving the AI more room to grow. One thing that worked for me was Angkor Wat and using priests in a food rich city. That does the trick nicely for production problems. Since we do want a religion going after Taoism is a good idea for the wonder Angkor Wat.

Less than 24 hours to the save being available. Who's first namliaM? I think the consensus is just to move the scout save and see what lies over the hill. Looking forward to it..

EDIT: I like B btw namliaM....

Anyone can move the scout and take that needed Screeny I guess.....

I like B too, but I have yet to find an effective way of getting TGL.... Also to get it, it is atleast costing us 1 Settler and 1 Galley... I think...
Well in the end it costs us 300 hammers one way or another...

So far I have tried to do this without chopping the woods, we need those I think for "base" production in Moscow...
Or can we chop Moscow clean and make it a GP farm/cottage city with near no production except offcourse the faithfull :whipped:?

Edit: Please elaborate Cosmic, why B?

I could pick C if I assume Mr. Settler will be :whipped:

I think we don't immediately need a warrior on home base because of its extremely isolated coastal location otherwise I may have picked E....

1 settler and 1 galley could be enough sacrifice to have good commerce in the future, don't you think?

In each of the options, the settler is whipped ASAP.

A+B are whipped for 1 pop
C+D are whipped for 2 pop
E is whipped for 3 pop

Well we need a MP in moscow, to keep the max of pop at 5 (or 4 with -1 for whipping). Otherwise we get another -1 for "We fear for our safety" I think allready at size 3.

The best senario I can think of, is that our closest neighbour has a capitol like 10 tiles from ours. We build 4 cities & add say 5 axemen. Meanwhile our neighbour build TGLight and adds 2 cities or so. The moment he finishes it, we take it from him...

But that is really a crap shoot, as one can never tell which AI will build it and when... It might as well get build on the exact opposit end of the world.

I would like to dive into tech bulbing as well. With cheap Universities we want to beeline Education I think. Both Paper and Education are Scientists bulb, I know that. Paper is pretty cheap and IIRC we wanted to bulb Philo right?
So we want to have a Scientist around when we get CoL (150 GPPs) and one when we get Paper (300 GPPs)?
Then we want a Priest for the shrine I think (450 GPPs) and another Priest possibly to burn on CS.

:crazyeye: In my test game last night the Oracle got build in 1200 BC :crazyeye:
and TGL in turn 109 (I forget the year) where I had 40 hammers to go.

I would actually go for D, simply because of the superior hammer, food, commerce over C ...

Great, now that we each pick one different alphabet, let's roll a dice :lol:

Great, now that we each pick one different alphabet, let's roll a dice :lol:
OK so my work was for nothing? Thanks :mad:

I took the list of tech bulbed by GPs and put them on the CFC tech chart (yes I know slightly outdated).

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/9103/gptechtreehi7.th.jpg (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gptechtreehi7.jpg)

I think/hope it is a little easier to see where you need to be on the tree to bulb a certain tech with a certain GP.

Some intresting things
There are 2 techs that can be bulbed by GPs:
1) Future tech
2) CS

There are 7 techs that can only be bulbed by 1 GP
Military Tradition
Assembly Line
Steel
Flight
Wheel
Artillery
Composites

After researching:
The wheel, Agriculture, Fishing, sailing, Mining, masonry, BW, IW, Compas, Metal Casting, Machinery, Optics

You can use a Scientist to bulb.... Hunting ! Yay !

Hi, Young men ! (ok, better not go that way :p)

I almost forget about the SGOTM, luckily Cos sent me a PM, I geuss this is my PRESENT call ;)

namliaM I liked B because the sooner we have settler the better. The sooner we have a second city for production the better. (don't like to see so many pop being wasted on settler too since we aren't that foodrich in Moscow not like Kyoto) I also am beginning to believe that going for TGL is a crapshoot and wonder about it now.

The question is this: do we put off expansion in very crowded map or risk it for TGL. I say forget it and get cities built and hope we can steal it. Either way stealing it or building it is a risk. (we can compensate with merchants too and pop GM which also pretty effective. Currency in this game will be important)

Much of this debate too is academic until we actually see the rest of the landmass and whether we have metals or horses. I do like your GP popping chart namliaM as we will need it and I do believe Moscow should be a GP farm at first.

Welkom Furrie nou jij ben de jongeman ik ben de oude herr. (oude gekke herr)

EDIT: Of course COL will be needed for GM's for caste system if that is the route we go.

heer, cosmic, heer not herr that is German *goes and cleans the keyboard*

The artist collor really came out bad... but otherwize I hope it comes in handy.
I had this in my mind for a while as I find the GP lists to be painfull to use and I hope this would be easier.

If we are aiming for backdoor diplo, then we are better off having more cities vs having a wonder I guess... I think we can reliably get it if:
1) We whip a worker after the settler (Nice overflow)
2) Clearcut Moscow

So to get on with the roster... Who is picking this up and moving the Scout? I could do it just a few hours after it becomes free.

Guten Abend (oder Tag), die Herren! ;)

Team, what do you think about getting the Oracle in Moscow and building TGL in St. Petersburg? Or the other way round? It seems - and yes, Cosmic, this is academic :p - that we'll have some forests to chop at St. Petersburg (assuming from the already posted screeny).

As for the screeny that is yet to be taken: I think that we could risk

moving the scout, and
settling on spot.
Whoever is first could do that, take a screeny and post it. Maybe namliaM would have time for a wonderful new excel sheet ... Maybe with the TGL/Oracle double? :mischief: And then we could discuss. Personally, I don't think that there'll be a so much better spot that it'd be worth losing one turn early on. Just my $0.02 anyway.

If we build the Oracle we'd have a Great Prophet first. And what do you all think on bulbing Theology then? That proposal hasn't yielded any comments, yet. :sad:

@namliaM: B! Reasons as Cosmic posted!

Regards, .

Waiting for the save is like Christmas, only 24 days earlier!

@namliaM -- keyboard cleaned and must have had German on the brain. This spring will get a chance to get my Dutch back to par.

Yes I do say old chap please do although if it is a matter of just moving the scout I could do it at 12:01am since I am in the same time zone and up at that time. Not my turn though I still think namliaM has the midas touch and should play first.

@Dot what concerns me about wonders is that it will take away from needed expansion. If we are lucky and can get 4 or 5 cities where we are then fine. But and that's a big but what if we don't have metals of any kind. We will be very much dwarfed from doing any kind of military campaigns. We need to make sure as Scowler pointed out to have iron (more important than copper) no 1. Deviating from that will only allow the AI to excel and grab what little resources there will be. Another conundrum too here is the landmass is small and the workers will run out of work quickly. Getting galleys up and running very soon imo is also in the top five. If we can fit oracle/tgl with that I say fine but to be honest on monarch might be difficult.

I remember in SGOTM2 the AI did not go for oracle very soon. (look at CFR thread and it's amazing they got it). That will not be the case here and look at namliaMs results of 109 turns. To build TGL it will mean ignoring everything else. Is it worth it? With Peter's UU horses will be needed which is another toughie again to find on this map. AH is also going to be needed fairly soon so we will know where to find it. One might find that we will need to do quite a bit of scouting to find the necessary resources. Remember Gyathaar conundrum in SGOTM great spot for Osaka but high maintenance. Now maybe here he makes us hunt for the goodies like easter eggs. Why would he make it so easy to have iron/horses on our landmass. This is highly improbable so we need to find out sooner rather than later.

... the Oracle in Moscow and building TGL in St. Petersburg? Oracle got build even earlier than TGL in my test games + it requires Religious techs.... which we arent aiming for? :confused: Right? :confused:

We can allways resort to everyone's UU... The Catapult rush, with some Archers as defence. If we can get a situation where we have Cata vs Defending archers... That is easy!
Even defending LBs soon become pray for Cata... (after 1 or 2 suicide bombers)

I agree with cosmics thoughts on Iron and Horses... But we will get to it when we get to it.
I think on techs, we want to have 1 or 2 Galleys out ASAP?
Opening with Fishing => BW is just a must IMHO.
After that we see what the (little) land brings us. Probably Sailing next tho.
Folowed by something usefull... Uhm... Pottery/Archery/Myst?

We want to get to Alphabet/Math quickly I think. Alpha to start trading, math to trade it for IW and for the chopping bonus :).
Also it leads to Currency which is a nice + allways.

After that pretty much beeline for Education for our cheap Universities.
I would like to check out a beeline to Mass Media for the UN. The faster we can build it, the faster we are to win?
Wow a Beeline really runs around some major techs... No education, No Gunpowder, No MT.

We really want to have atleast a scientist (maybe 2) to burn on Philo. I am not to sure about founding Taoism tho....

I think I like B if we have a smallish Island, C if the scout is away to scout out our larger island.

If I remember correctly only 1 sci is needed for Philo, on any speed.

GLighthouse is a crapshoot yes, but not if we beeline Sailing and Masonry before or after Fishing & Bronze Works (Sailing first to start a non-great lighthouse immediately). We can build it in St. Pete's which hopefully should be a production city while Moscow cranks out the workers/fogbusters. I'd rather have cities, yes, but we're not even sure if we can expand so much before needing to build that first galley/extra warrior to escort the third settler. There seems to be land up there, we don't know how much until scout moves, but I'm willing to bet there should be enough for a third city before we die of maintenance, especially since it seems like we seem to be located at South Africa (in relation with the African continent).

Capturing the GLighthouse? There's no guarantee a nearby civ will build it for us. It could end up halfway around the world.

I was going to take a look at the save but let's leave the move to namliaM. I don't have the newst HOF loaded yet still 001. Will do it tomorrow however have downloaded it. At lot is riding on what the scout finds back there.

Building any wonder (oracle or TGLight) in St. Petes is going to be near impossible.

It is going to be about turn 50 that it is founded. To build TGlight you need 390 hammers. On avarage it gets build at turn 130? (Guestimating pretty late as I had a couple before 110). This means you need atleast 5 hammers/turn on average to even have a realistic shot at TGLight.

This MAY be possible in Moscow, but not in St.Pete IMHO.

On the scientists, I meant Education, not Philo.

OK, here it is... Looks like a great alternate site for Moscow. Either on the suggested spot (2NE) or on the plains hill (3NE). Not sure it is worth "wasting" 2 or 3 turns over...

The 2 lands we can see south we were asuming were Tundra, now look more like Plains to me...

I will try to run some excel simulation later...

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3103/sgotm3startoj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Heh ... seems like there are more than enough land for 3 cities (thus 2 settlers).

I would still settle on site ... unless someone can convince me moving the settler to where the scout currently is is worth the 3 turns delay of starting our research.

--

Question: How do you turn on those blue circels?

The scout site does have more food (due to the fish) alltho we start offcourse in the whole...

It has WAY more production

We lose 1 commerce/turn for working the Fish/Clams vs Clams/Clams
And we lose 1 commerce/turn for the FP
And we lose 1 commerce/turn for the PSpice.

But we have way more early production!
I have not been able to run the Excel sheet, which I will do tonight.
But IIRC at turn 8 we would learn Fishing, on this site it will take 3 turns + 9 = turn 12
On site O (Original) on turn 12 we have 4 hammers into the WB and grow to size 2. Adding 3 hammers/turn into the WB
From turn 12 we can be putting 4 hammers/turn into the WB on site S (Scout).
This means on site S, the first WB is done in 12 turns. (turn 24)
On site O, (45-3)/3 = 14 turns (turn 26).

At this stage (turn 26)
Site S is size 1 with (25-3 + 5=) 27 food
Site O is size 2 with (14 * 2 = ) 28 food

However we do have to delay our second WB a few turns until BW is in.

I really need my sheet for more detailed info... *grmbl*

This just occured to me this morning: Specialist Economy !
Archipelago = high food, low production... Right?
Also with "tropical" we are likely to encounter a lot of jungle = Chopping with IW.
If we indeed go: Fishing, BW, Sailing, Masonry? (TGLight?), (insert a worker tech or 2 here), Writing, Alpha, Math
This means that IW (which is a popular AI tech) is quite a bit away, so we cannot start chopping untill late(r) => No/few land tile to work.

Also we are Philsophical, which kindoff helps with the GPPs.

I just noticed something... about the burning of GPs or Scientists in particular.
The first tech the Sceintist will bulb is Writing. Without writing no libs => No Great Scientist?!:confused:
There is no way to get a great scientist without getting writing first... :confused:

Tu = Turn #
Fo = Food in food bar


Original site | Scout site
Tu Fo Ha Com S | Fo Ha Com S
08 24 08 000 1 | 12 12 072 1 Original wasted 8 hammers, Learns fishing (-88 Commerce)
11 00 03 033 2 | 15 00 014 1 Scout builds Warrior, Learns fishing (-88 commerce)
35 04 11 332 3 | 00 00 263 3 Both cities have 2 Workboats/nets
49 01 19 548 2 | 07 11 458 2 Original produces first settler
50 07 20 562 2 | 07 11 458 2 Scout produces first settler
67 04 54 818 4 | 06 10 687 2 Scout produces second settler
69 04 39 848 2 | 15 18 711 2 Original produces second settler
74 34 45 918 2 | 14 00 770 3 Scout produces Lighthouse
80 00 51 1007 4 | 25 16 860 4 End of comparison

Note: The original site is still to build the Lighthouse!

I will have to have another look to make sure this is right... and maybe try some other variants....
But in this variation it looks like the Original site is out-teching the scout site and the Scout site is outgrowing/outproducing the Original site

A worker first trick on the Scout site won't work either I think. It only takes 13 turns to build a worker... but BW takes 24 turns. => Worker have nothing to do for atleast 11 turns.
Also BW first would delay learning Fishing to about turn 36! Meaning we cannot start building those important workboats untill then or a lighthouse for that matter.
Because we need those workboats, we must do Fishing, BW. Which in turn means we have absolutely nothing to do for any worker(s) untill atleast turn 40-ish. Around turn 40 we start our first settler build... so a worker is even after that.

namliaM: Could you post the save where you've moved the worker so that i can j