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The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-2.08.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Thank you Alan for our very own thread and Gyathaar for another challenge! :goodjob:

Welcome back to those who played SGOTM02: Gator, Brother Bede and rrau. :p

Welcome to our new friends Sanabas and A'AbarachAmadan.

:salute: the X-team.

Some early thoughts:

Let's not wander this time. Plant where we stand and get on with learning how to fish. Then celebrate with fried clams and beer ;)

A crowded archipelago and low sea map suggests neighbors, especially if it is Snaky Continents, so there will be a fight for resources, which we will probably need Iron Working to exploit. And the low sea level means that a workboat circumnavigation bonus is reachable.

Archipelago and tropical climate will put hammers at a premium, while commerce will be more easily come by, which suggests a Diplomatic style victory. The crowded map on the other hand will require very, very close attention to relationship management.

Spaceships on archipelago maps are not a cruising to victory kind of project either. Low hammer counts being the biggest issue, but the other guys are equally hampered.

The Great Lighthouse is a nice wonder on an archipelago. And even nicer is that it doesn't have a resource production multiplier. And as far as I can recall the other nations put a low priority on it.

Thanks for the pm leif and welcome to our past and new members.

I just got Warlords last week so I'm definately looking forward to some team discussion and sharing of ideas. Looking forward to the new challenge.

Great Lighthouse, lots of trade routes, lots of commerce sounds a reasonable way to go. Workboat circumnavigation attmept also sounds good, although if we want great lighthouse, probably better to take a galley with a scout on it, in case of empty islands with huts on them. Huts have been taken off our island for balance, but should still be in the rest of the world, yeah?

Found in place, fishing first up sounds good.

One bonus to space is that our labs give us +50% SS production. Although if we can manage to have enough friends for a diplo win, there are only 12 techs to research beyond the 5th tier with alphabet and monarchy on it. Which is a lot quicker than needing to research to space.

Let's not wander this time. Plant where we stand and get on with learning how to fish. Then celebrate with fried clams and beer
Are you from Cape Cod or something? :p Don't forget the onion rings? :rolleyes:

Been playing a few test games. Don't know if that is a good thing after the last one? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've been staring at the start screenie and it somehow rubs me wrong to settle on that Flood Plain. :mischief: Places near rivers like that are made for summer cottages and lazy days. ;)

I'd like to send that Scout to the east to see if there might be any food bonuses on the other side. :please:

I like the idea of Sanabas for a Galley with a Scout to pop some wayward huts. What is the circumnavigation bonus anyway? :dunno: Never had one before...

In test games, it is important to get some Galleys out to meet folks. I have also found it helpful to grab Alphabet as soon as possible, although Iron Working is nice too as there will be much jungle to chop. And cities to build units in for early warfare. There are a lot of priorities, like all of them... :crazyeye:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I like the idea of Sanabas for a Galley with a Scout to pop some wayward huts. What is the circumnavigation bonus anyway? :dunno: Never had one before...

It's +1 movement for all our boats, same as magellan's voyage in civ3.

In test games, it is important to get some Galleys out to meet folks. I have also found it helpful to grab Alphabet as soon as possible, although Iron Working is nice too as there will be much jungle to chop. And cities to build units in for early warfare. There are a lot of priorities, like all of them... :crazyeye:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, unless the scout shows something really nice to the east, we hardly need a worker to start with, a run to alphabet while a couple of galleys/workboats head out making contacts sounds good to me. Getting to play middleman works even better, but I don't know how feasible that is.

As for the settler, moving at all means we miss out on the sw crabs. If there's food bonuses east, we'll have to rethink, but if there's nothing exciting, I think found in place is the way to go.

Lurker signing in :wavey:
I've played a few starts on 'pelago maps lately. Getting the Circ bonus on Monarch is no prob. I think I'd wait til I got a scout on a galley before starting the run.

GLight and Colossus are excellent wonders, of course.
Religion wise, I think I'd go for CoL. The AI research slower on Pelago, b/c of lack of expansion and fewer contacts. Then again I practically always go for CoL on the way to CS. I may be stuck in that particular habit :lol:

You can use a Great Merchant for CS (need a few turns of research too), but you'll need to either bypass BW or also get MC. Moreover you'll need Maths and Currency, so CS will be late if you do it that way.

The upgrade process likely will start around 10 PM Eastern Time (GMT -5), and is expected to last two or three hours. The forum will be down during the upgrade process but the main site will remain accessible.

In case anyone missed this note. Forum update tonight.

It's too early to be double posting already, but we are Xteam so some things will never change.



Originally Posted by DynamicSpirit
Question: With no city razing on, does that also force us to always accept cities that revolt to us under cultural pressure?

Answered by Gyathaar: Yes.. also newly founded cities wont autoraze

FROM the Pre-game discussion thread

Took a few minutes to create a replica of Gyathhar's starting location so we can play with it a bit. It is attached.

In messing around with test games, research rate will be an issue, as will production. Cottaging those FP's is important. Until we build a lighthouse, those 2 FP's will provide +2 food, same as a clam, only we will see much more commerce out of them over time. :hmm:

Perhaps if someone has a bit of time, we can flush out the start a bit. I set it up as worst case and you'll see what I mean if you give it a shot. Off for work this morning. :sad:

Thanks for the invite. I've never played an SGOTM before. I'm out of the net 3-9 Dec, but at least I'll be in nice warm LA.

Please ignore me if my thoughts if they are anti-team playing style. I know most of y'all have played together.

Below thoughts are how I would generally attack a Diplomacy Fastest Finish. Also, I've never played a game with 17 rivals on the same map (at least not since Civ III), so some of my thinking may be off.

Big plan: If I'm reading it correctly, it is fastest finish and not separated by which of the two victory conditions are available. If so, I'd definately chose Diplomacy as there are far less things to research. Normally I'd ignore religion, just letting it come to me, until I determined who I needed as friendly in the end game. With agressive AI, it will be harder to make them friendly, but capturing / vasseling them works just as well as long as we avoid the land domination limit, which can be a little difficult without razing.

This leads to a counter need. The need for cottages to get to towns for extra research and with the right civic extra hammers. On the other hand, maximizing population and the need for farms. Normally I wouldn't go for biology, but later in the game a decision would have to be made to determine if that was needed, though I'd rather just mess with the AI via combat. Tight city placement along the coasts can eak out a few extra population total.

Trading can be key for a little extra friendliness. I'll trade my last X for any Y even if it only helps the AI to make them more friendly. If I don't need them for my current cities, I'll even give stuff away for free for a while and just cancel the deal when I need the resources back. Ideally I'll trade happy for happy, etc. if no reason to do otherwise.

Initial Start: First, I hate to settle on a wonderful floodplain, but this one looks like it has potential since with so many AI there may be people on the islands we can already see and hopefully not one on ours or forget everything I'm writing about the initial start. I'd recommend moving the scout E/NE to see if we see a better spot. If not, in place is good. Keep in mind the size of the island. I'd rather get three cities if they just fit on the island with the 3 tile minimum. Normally I'd want to chop, but probably wouldn't for this start as we need the hammers for a while.

Probable research if I didn't see anything to change my mind: Fishing, Wheel, Pottery, Sailing, Writing, Alphabet, Trade Fest

If settle in place, start worker and switch to workboat as soon as fishing is complete, manually switching to the 2 hammer tile after expansion for faster WB finish, setting up for in order of completion: workboat, worker, workboat, settler, ?? (probable workboat & galley/scout for multiple exploring - could we really be trading with 17 others after Alphabet?! Imagine the money after Currency!!).

Early Wonders: in capital: Great Library (usually try to get Great Scientists only in a Diplomacy scenario, though a Great Engineer is useful for the UN) and in another Great Lighthouse; also some national ones such as National Epic in the GL city and Heroic Epic in a separate one; capture others (Pyramids a must later on for a little extra speed buying the UN and extra hammers) if possible, though it seems like that may be random with so many AI; if possible The Oracle, but I wouldn't go out of my way for it research wise - if the advance AI will give it to me or no one has Priesthood after doing the Alphabet trades, then it is VERY useful; Temple of Artimis in our capital if we have marble, but only after Great Library, so probably will get beat to it

Mid-game: Next research Literature, Mathmatics (hopefully a trade), then Currency (hopefully first). Trading cheaper techs for money can push us back to 100% science for most of the game; and makes the AI more friendly.

Early City buildings: Libraries for extra research and expansion (wouldn't waste time on obelisks, but there are rare exceptions), Granaries; Barracks as needed

Later city buildings: as available Harbors once someone trades Compass; eventually Forges; Courthouses as needed (balance between building and military expansion; win the balance, win the game - yes, I like the show Heroes)

Next research block: Code of Laws, Civil Service (Civic!!!), Paper, Education; trade for others as available; probably go for Oxford University, but sometimes there are other priorities for the end game, like being ready to capture enough territory and Mass Media isn't 'that' far away

First great scientist to build acaedemy in capital; hold second and later ones to get Astronomy / Scientific Method / Physics (i.e. don't use it for Philosophy, try to trade for that; it takes more than two scientists to get Physics anyway)

Never trade away Education or Philosophy; I'd give anything else first and have given Electricity away instead. Only go for Philosophy if someone gets Education, as really want to get Liberalism first. Hopefully don't finish Liberalism until we have Electricity so we can get the expensive Radio, but AI research will dictate. After I have Ed&Ph, I'll go to one turn away from Lib, which at this level will most likely get us Electricity instead of Radio.

After getting Physics, using the free scientist toward Chemistry, which is good as then we can get Grenadiers, which are good as long as the AI doesn't have Cavalry. At this point it is usually trying to decide how much we need to capture to get voted in and balancing it timing against getting the UN.

And none of this will matter after moving the scout, but I generally try to keep to the main theme. Look forward to your thoughts.

Thanks for the invite. I've never played an SGOTM before. I'm out of the net 3-9 Dec, but at least I'll be in nice warm LA.
First of all, welcome to your first succession game. :thumbsup:
The bad news is, you drew us... :mischief:
Please ignore me if my thoughts if they are anti-team playing style. I know most of y'all have played together.
Everyone's thoughts are important! :rockon:
What we have found is that we often feed off of one another's ideas and can often come to a great solution to a sticky problem. So, please, don't hold back. :D
Personally, I would prefer to hear everyone's ideas before a turn set rather than after. :rolleyes: I think it is important to try to play according to a team plan as much as possible. I think I sometimes lose focus in a Civ IV game because there are so many options to choose from. So, we do need to try and remain focused and help each with that
Big plan: If I'm reading it correctly, it is fastest finish and not separated by which of the two victory conditions are available. If so, I'd definately chose Diplomacy as there are far less things to research. Normally I'd ignore religion, just letting it come to me, until I determined who I needed as friendly in the end game. With agressive AI, it will be harder to make them friendly, but capturing / vasseling them works just as well as long as we avoid the land domination limit, which can be a little difficult without razing.

This leads to a counter need. The need for cottages to get to towns for extra research and with the right civic extra hammers. (snip)
Yes, the laurels go to the earliest date. Anything we do to make it look better but delays the finish is wasted!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I am concerned about tech pace and research rates. We are going to need some cottages but have to watch the hammers too. Can't build an army without some hammers.
Trading can be key for a little extra friendliness. I'll trade my last X for any Y even if it only helps the AI to make them more friendly. If I don't need them for my current cities, I'll even give stuff away for free for a while and just cancel the deal when I need the resources back. Ideally I'll trade happy for happy, etc. if no reason to do otherwise.
Gator PM'ed me a link to an article in the War Academy about trading for domination or conquest wins by Maltz. It is very interesting and here is the link. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/conquest_diplomacy.php).
My other reading has been on City Specialization (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/city_specialization.php) by Excel and on using Great People to rush Tech (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952) by DaveMcW.
Probable research if I didn't see anything to change my mind: Fishing, Wheel, Pottery, Sailing, Writing, Alphabet, Trade Fest

If settle in place, start worker and switch to workboat as soon as fishing is complete, manually switching to the 2 hammer tile after expansion for faster WB finish, setting up for in order of completion: workboat, worker, workboat, settler, ?? (probable workboat & galley/scout for multiple exploring - could we really be trading with 17 others after Alphabet?! Imagine the money after Currency!!).
Seems reasonable. I would also like to see Bronze Working in there somewhere as we have forests to chop and it would be nice to claim a source of metal fairly quickly.
Early Wonders:
We may need to capture what we need. :hammer:
And none of this will matter after moving the scout, but I generally try to keep to the main theme. Look forward to your thoughts.
I agree with this very much. Again, losing focus of your game plan is not a good thing.

In test games, early warmongering is a plus. Whichever civs have the largest islands will, generally, become the most powerful. I think finding them and knowing who can war on who will be important so that we can try to maintain wars between the more powerful ones until we can get ourselves up and running.

When I put together the sample map, I noticed that several civs started with Archers. :rolleyes:

This is way too long... :crazyeye:

Just got back to town. Trying to get my house ready for the market for Monday, but after that, should be ready to go :D

Just got back to town. Trying to get my house ready for the market for Monday, but after that, should be ready to go :D
Good luck!! :thumbsup: Moving is an adventure,,, :rolleyes:

Hope it all works out. :D

I would also like to see Bronze Working in there somewhere as we have forests to chop and it would be nice to claim a source of metal fairly quickly.

We need to be careful about choping. Without many hills we may need the forest just for the hammers.

@A'AbarachAmadan & sanabas - as Leif said all thoughts and comments are welcomed. Especially if I do something dumb :mischief: Our past players have heard me say (write) many times: "I'd rather play smarter than faster". Pausing to ask questions or even posting a partial turnset so others can give advice is encouraged. I know I'll be doing it.

@rrau - Hope the sale goes quick and above your asking price.

I've been playing a test game Leif sent me and here is my progress so far. Game is at 55BC and I have finally met every one. I've been using A'Abarach's game plan since I was on an island to myself. Hammers are definately hard to come by in the capital which makes building a wonder and trying to run a specialist almost impossible. I've been trading for techs but have not been able to pull any gpt yet. Using a galley and a workboat (in opposite directions) I was the first to sail around the world. One GP scientist was used for the Academy.

I've been playing it too. I've been in slavery and it seems the best way to get things built in the capital. Soon, someone will get Democracy and Emancipation, then I'll be in trouble... ;)

I'm at 1220 AD and haven't made a military dent anywhere, just a couple of cities. As usual, started too late and the wrong target, perhaps.

Been focused on trading and have kept up fairly well, although starting to fall behind. Lost the race to Liberalism by 3 turns. :rolleyes:

With no razings allowed, early conquest of any tribes that share the Alpha-island seems like the way to go. The first 2-3 cities the AI found are usually ok, but they'll found worthless cities instead of improving the ones that count.

With no razings allowed, early conquest of any tribes that share the Alpha-island seems like the way to go. The first 2-3 cities the AI found are usually ok, but they'll found worthless cities instead of improving the ones that count.

The 2.08 AI do a better job of city site selection and tend to found fewer and better towns but are more aggressive in their siting.

I've been playing it too. I've been in slavery and it seems the best way to get things built in the capital. Soon, someone will get Democracy and Emancipation, then I'll be in trouble... ;)

I'm at 1220 AD and haven't made a military dent anywhere, just a couple of cities. As usual, started too late and the wrong target, perhaps.

Been focused on trading and have kept up fairly well, although starting to fall behind. Lost the race to Liberalism by 3 turns. :rolleyes:

If you can exploit the sea coast resources slavery is indeed the way to go, but over whipping the capitol may not be, especially if you use the Bureaucracy civic. The whip is better used in the outliers where the reduction in population will also reduce the city maintenance cost.

With no razings allowed, early conquest of any tribes that share the Alpha-island seems like the way to go. The first 2-3 cities the AI found are usually ok, but they'll found worthless cities instead of improving the ones that count.
I agree. I have not played with such a hammer poor capital before. :blush:

Seemed like forever to get anything out of it. With such a capital, it seems that getting additional cities built, up and running is a top priority. I got pretty good research and gold flow out of the capital, but all I had time to build were four Settlers, a couple of Workers, some Work Boats, some Warriors and Archers, Barracks, Library, Marketplace, University and was working on a Bank when I quite. I abandoned work on Triremes and regretted it when the Aztecs ate my nets during their first surprise attacks. Got to get ahead of that and be the attacker, not the defender... :hammer:

Oh, and Theocracy doesn't work very well when you have no state religion... :rolleyes:

If you can exploit the sea coast resources slavery is indeed the way to go, but over whipping the capitol may not be, especially if you use the Bureaucracy civic. The whip is better used in the outliers where the reduction in population will also reduce the city maintenance cost.
crossed. :mischief:

I understand that whipping the capital is not the "best" choice. What alternatives are there to getting the necessities built in a hammer poor capital?
Especially if we will need to do some early warmongering. The only other alternative is to build the capitol in a place with more hammers and use that site as a commerce or Great People production city?

The other interesting problem was losing those food resources with every war as I hadn't built enough naval units, lack of hammers again. :cry:

I understand that whipping the capital is not the "best" choice. What alternatives are there to getting the necessities built in a hammer poor capital?
Especially if we will need to do some early warmongering. The only other alternative is to build the capitol in a place with more hammers and use that site as a commerce or Great People production city?


Commerce city is exactly what I used the capital for in a second attempt at your test game.

Our second city, which needs to come as fast as possible, needs to claim that hammer hill. If it is coastal and has another hill nearby it can become our production city.

Commerce city is exactly what I used the capital for in a second attempt at your test game.
OK, but how have you faired building Marketplaces and the other commerce enhancing structures? Any sneak attacks and a need to quickly build some units? :mischief:
Our second city, which needs to come as fast as possible, needs to claim that hammer hill. If it is coastal and has another hill nearby it can become our production city.
I did not build enough cities at the start. I had three up and running before I got attacked and, playing a trading game, had just hooked up Iron, so barely saved myself.

I think we have to heading out to take on other civs close by, not trying to survive. That requires hammers for units imho.

Take a look at the attachment. Those are our other choices, although the move east has its own set of problems. I think or big decision, should we think about moving the capital, is which way to send the Scout? E and NE seems to be the best from where I sit because I think I see a ghostly image of coastlines to the NW?

EDIT - I'm trying to use those FP's for cottages (in cyan), so I didn't want to get too far away.

crossed. :mischief:

I understand that whipping the capital is not the "best" choice. What alternatives are there to getting the necessities built in a hammer poor capital?
Especially if we will need to do some early warmongering. The only other alternative is to build the capitol in a place with more hammers and use that site as a commerce or Great People production city?

The other interesting problem was losing those food resources with every war as I hadn't built enough naval units, lack of hammers again. :cry:

Commerce city is exactly what I used the capital for in a second attempt at your test game.

Our second city, which needs to come as fast as possible, needs to claim that hammer hill. If it is coastal and has another hill nearby it can become our production city.

Instead of using Bureaucracy get to Code of Laws and use Caste System instead. If the capitol is food rich you can run specialists to make up for the commerce or beaker multiplying buildings that would have been built with forced labor. Reserve the whip for training military when needed. It is an early form of conscription ;)

And find another city site for heavy hammers if there is one.

Instead of using Bureaucracy get to Code of Laws and use Caste System instead. If the capitol is food rich you can run specialists to make up for the commerce or beaker multiplying buildings that would have been built with forced labor. Reserve the whip for training military when needed. It is an early form of conscription ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok, I'm with you so far. ;) Now, about those happy pills to get the city large enough to support all those specialists? :mischief:

Looks like scouting will be very important to finding the city sites we need. Hope there is enough space? I think we will need an early settler, perhaps before a worker? :crazyeye:
So Settler, Work Boat when fishing comes in, then Worker? :hmm:
And find another city site for heavy hammers if there is one.
How about 3 or 4? :p

I'm running into the happiness issue also. Atleast until we get +1 happy for MP duty.

If we share an island than most of this is moot because we will need to be building military to survive.

Looks like scouting will be very important to finding the city sites we need. Hope there is enough space? I think we will need an early settler, perhaps before a worker? :crazyeye:

So Settler, Work Boat when fishing comes in, then Worker? :hmm:

How about 3 or 4? :p

Finally finished the evil COTM03. I had planned and completed a diplomatic victory so hopefully that will help us in this attempt.

One note on the start position in the practice game: the spices to the NW are actually on a grass hills, so that will help us build our initial ship faster.

Obviously the size and composition of our starting island will emphatically shift the early game. If there are no resources, we can beeline for alphabet and ignore most of the early techs. If we find 3 wheat, then we'd probably want Agriculture early.

I was thinking about your idea as follows:

Research: Fishing (3760), BW (3160) - may determine second city site (wanna bet its under jungle, or just not here?), Sailing - if build on coast, will already be connected; if no other reason: The Wheel, Pottery, Writing - build libraries in all cities that need it, Alphabet - Tradefest

Capital: Settler (2860), Workboat (by working the hill), get to size 2, then Worker, Settlers?
Second city: if near plains/forest/hill - the 2d Workboat

Initially only chop forests on hills and replace with mine. Eventually put cottages around capital since happiness will be an issue and it can be the commerce mecca. Save capital forest chops for Great Library.

EDITED AT 1448 26 Nov 06:

Another start option:
If Settler first, it takes 38 turns to get the settler. Alternatively,
Start warrior for first 8 turns while working floodplain. (this production will probably be lost)
Get Fishing in 8 turns.
Start workboat, still working flood plain to size 2 (3 more turns).
Switch to working forest/hill and forest, taking 11 additional turns.
Switch to Settler, working crab and forest/hill, taking 25 turns.
Second option takes 9 turns longer, so has two less turns at total population of 2, but spends most of that time working an improved square which will more than makes up the difference.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok, I'm with you so far. ;) Now, about those happy pills to get the city large enough to support all those specialists? :mischief:

Looks like scouting will be very important to finding the city sites we need. Hope there is enough space? I think we will need an early settler, perhaps before a worker? :crazyeye:
So Settler, Work Boat when fishing comes in, then Worker? :hmm:

How about 3 or 4? :p

I'm running into the happiness issue also. Atleast until we get +1 happy for MP duty.

If we share an island than most of this is moot because we will need to be building military to survive.

Don't forget Hereditary Rule for happiness. Again depending on the resource situation I have been known to use HR from the Pyramids rather than Representation on a happy pill short map, or even spending the beakers to research it.

And piling production into a Settler until we learn how to fish, then switching to a work boat is almost too twitchy for my taste, how about another scout to go in our galley later?, but the settler>workboat shuffle is worth considering, though building a workboat at pop1 while working a FP to support the science is excruciatingly slow until that second citizen arrives.
I'll let the spreadsheet mavens puzzle that one out.

I'll let the spreadsheet mavens puzzle that one out.

Does everyone have Excel? I can post some spreadsheets on alternative starts. That is how I start all my games. :crazyeye: I've actually mapped out general research routes for various victory conditions, but they all change significantly near the beginning depending upon the map and starting techs, but later on get to a 'stardard' route based upon what I'm trying to accomplish.

Actually, rather than strain this old warhorse's eyes trying to decipher the cells in Excel, just lay out the instructions by turn number, and I trust your judgment A'A. And if my bump of perception tells me something is out of whack I am not shy about saying so.

I can following instructions and I can see battle flags just fine but the chicken scratchings of Excel do make my head hurt.

Does everyone have Excel? I can post some spreadsheets on alternative starts. That is how I start all my games. :crazyeye: I've actually mapped out general research routes for various victory conditions, but they all change significantly near the beginning depending upon the map and starting techs, but later on get to a 'stardard' route based upon what I'm trying to accomplish.
Thank you, that would be very helpful for me. :thumbsup:

@Bede - In messing around with this start, I have learned a couple of things.
First, it is important for us to decide, the basic route we want to take up the research tree. It is important because I have followed A'AbarachAmadan (wow, we need to find a shorter nik) :eek: basic outline and gone directly for Alphabet. When I sent a Workboat out, we knew enough folks to have a trade fest. When I waited to send a Galley (in a second attempt) with a Scout, I didn't know enough civs yet and it took too long to find them in order to trade. Soon, I was getting demands for tribute of Alphabet. With a small military, we get declared on, not a good thing, although they don't do much damage because, mostly kill trade opportunities and destroy fishing nets.

As far as Caste, I hope we find some happy pills somewhere because it is hard to run when your nets get messed up and you have red faces in the city screen.

I guess I am too inexperienced yet to know how to handle a low hammer capital. But it looks like I'm about to learn? :D

A'AbarachAmadan (wow, we need to find a shorter nik)


How about A'AA? :cool: :D

As a sidenote: I'll be off computer on yet another business trip (what we call TDY for Temporary Duty in the military) from 27-29 Nov, but will check in on the 30th before we start. I'll run a couple spreadsheets for view.

How about A'AA? :cool: :D
Thanks! :beer: :high5: :rockon:
As a sidenote: I'll be off computer on yet another business trip (what we call TDY for Temporary Duty in the military) from 27-29 Nov, but will check in on the 30th before we start. I'll run a couple spreadsheets for view.
Let's see, Omaha, Air Force? :hmm:

Used to be Army. :D

Does everyone have Excel? I can post some spreadsheets...

I'd like to see them. May help me in understanding and learning more of the basics of the game.

@A'AA - Nice catch on the save I made. :blush: Added the hill under the Spice in the 1a version.

Also, made another while I was at it. I think the version 2 will be difficult. ;)

@Bede - In messing around with this start, I have learned a couple of things.
First, it is important for us to decide, the basic route we want to take up the research tree. It is important because I have followed A'AbarachAmadan (wow, we need to find a shorter nik) :eek: basic outline and gone directly for Alphabet. When I sent a Workboat out, we knew enough folks to have a trade fest. When I waited to send a Galley (in a second attempt) with a Scout, I didn't know enough civs yet and it took too long to find them in order to trade. Soon, I was getting demands for tribute of Alphabet. With a small military, we get declared on, not a good thing, although they don't do much damage because, mostly kill trade opportunities and destroy fishing nets.

As far as Caste, I hope we find some happy pills somewhere because it is hard to run when your nets get messed up and you have red faces in the city screen.

I guess I am too inexperienced yet to know how to handle a low hammer capital. But it looks like I'm about to learn? :D


Two things: a strong military, or at least a numerous one, will cope with precisely the two issues you mention - unhappy citizens if we are a Monarchy, and they will also keep the wolf away from the front door.

And I agree that A'AA's approach is probably sound, but that sometimes "trade fests" can cause more trouble than they are worth. You really need to pick your deals very carefully and make sure you both pay and receive full value for whatever crosses the table. I will usually avoid trading for anything less than Math/Currency/Iron Working type values. The other tech are just not costly enough to justify using up limited trading opportunities.

QUOTE=leif erikson;4807102]Let's see, Omaha, Air Force? :hmm:

Used to be Army. :D[/QUOTE]

Army guy recently arrived USSTRATCOM, which is mostly AF, but we keep them grounded. :mischief:

I couldnt upload an excel sheet, so I copied it into Word. Don't read too much into the spreadsheet as we have no idea what is on the first island. However, assuming it is dirth of resources, it wouldn't be bad to start with 2 workboats and then make the capital a settler/worker producer as it would have 8/turn at size 3 (9 if mine the hill or irrigate the FP, but I'd put a cottage on the FP instead). Then hopefully our next couple cities would be able to do other things, hopefully the second city having a couple hills so it could concentrate on real construction. This, in theory, would initially 'specialize' our first two cities, one with lots of food and one with lots of production.

143151

Playing again with a hill under the Spices, much better! :D
Two things: a strong military, or at least a numerous one, will cope with precisely the two issues you mention - unhappy citizens if we are a Monarchy, and they will also keep the wolf away from the front door.
Again, been testing A'AA's approach and it works. However, it is 80AD and I just got Monarchy and Hereditary Rule.
And I agree that A'AA's approach is probably sound, but that sometimes "trade fests" can cause more trouble than they are worth. You really need to pick your deals very carefully and make sure you both pay and receive full value for whatever crosses the table. I will usually avoid trading for anything less than Math/Currency/Iron Working type values. The other tech are just not costly enough to justify using up limited trading opportunities.
I agree with this but I am finding out that in order to have any kind of good relations, you either trade a tech or the AI will come and demand it, especially Alphabet. I think we need to check with AI's to see what their attitudes to each other are. I have been getting a bunch of :p when trying to trade because I have traded with someone's worst enemy. Can't we all just get along?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Army guy recently arrived USSTRATCOM, which is mostly AF, but we keep them grounded. :mischief:
Thank God someone is there to straighten them out!! Heads are always in the clouds. If you get a chance to ride a fighter, don't turn it down!! :D
Don't read too much into the spreadsheet as we have no idea what is on the first island. However, assuming it is dirth of resources, it wouldn't be bad to start with 2 workboats and then make the capital a settler/worker producer as it would have 8/turn at size 3 (9 if mine the hill or irrigate the FP, but I'd put a cottage on the FP instead). Then hopefully our next couple cities would be able to do other things, hopefully the second city having a couple hills so it could concentrate on real construction. This, in theory, would initially 'specialize' our first two cities, one with lots of food and one with lots of production.
I also tried sticking Bronze Working into the order as you suggested. So, it went Fishing, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Bronze Working and then Alphabet. Didn't seem to lose anything as I got to it first and had time to launch a Galley and Scout into the wilderness. By the time Alphabet came along, I knew 5 or 6 civs instead of 2, and we had Bronze to trade instead of just Alphabet.

And yes, plans change as soon as contact is made with the enemy. Every time!! :scan:

Thanks for the spreadsheet, off to have a look. :thumbsup:

I will usually avoid trading for anything less than Math/Currency/Iron Working type values. The other tech are just not costly enough to justify using up limited trading opportunities.

I usually trade for lower ones, but do try to be very careful. I try not to trade Alphabet until I have to so they don't start spreading everything around. If I can get Math & IW from separate AI for I will. The new AI puts much more emphasis on Alphabet and then trade with each other extensively. I usually pick up all the lower tech by trading other lower techs, trying to spread as few as possible, so I don't have to research them at all. I usually try to build as few early techs as possible so I can just trade. However, doing trade fests right is definately an art and can easily get you in trouble if you let the wrong couple civs get advanced. At this level I'd guess the AI isn't trading even, but I would expect something like at '120' tech to be able to pick up a '100' tech. I've found they will give way too much money for a tech, so Currency is nice.

Break

A note on slavery: One way I've found to use it very effectively is only use it when I need to whip 2 citizens, usually doing it when I reach X+1, reducing me to X-1, which will be my new happiness level for 15 turns.

I also tried sticking Bronze Working into the order as you suggested. So, it went Fishing, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Bronze Working and then Alphabet. Didn't seem to lose anything as I got to it first and had time to launch a Galley and Scout into the wilderness. By the time Alphabet came along, I knew 5 or 6 civs instead of 2, and we had Bronze to trade instead of just Alphabet.

That sounds like a good order. I'd rather wait on Sailing and just trade for it, ideally with Writing or less. Only 5 or 6 civs after Alphabet? Darn, I was hoping for at least 10. :crazyeye:

Another technique I've used, which is sometimes good, sometimes not, is to turn off research after Alphabet and wait until someone trades Polytheism. Then go to 100% for Literature, hopefully get Math in trade, and 100% to Currency. In my last game, after Currency, I never dropped under 90% until I got Mass Media, though I was at -300gpt for a while. :crazyeye:

I couldnt upload an excel sheet, so I copied it into Word.

I've had to zip my Excel files in other SG's just to be able to upload them. I've cut and pasted the word doc back into Excel so I could get the whole thing to print. Word has a nasty habit of cutting off text if the tables are not the right size.

@Leif - thanks for upgrading the save files. I'll give it a shot tomorrow after work.

I kind of like the one Workboat strat. I think I'd spend the the first 8 turns on Worker though, even if I lose some of it, it may still speed the worker?

Here is why I think this. There are two key tasks. One is to get a Clam worked and get the food bonus. The second is to get the Spice Hill chopped and mined. By getting a single Workboat out and then a Settler, the second city may have enough hammers to quickly built the second Workboat while the capitol can start a Library, perhaps using the chop.
EDIT - Forgot the third critical task, get the settler out and the second, hopefully hammer, city built and operational. :blush:

So order would be Fishing, Bronze Working, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Sailing, Alphabet and Literature. Although, Bronze could move a little later in the lineup if we wish.

Sounds like a plan is coming together, until we start, of course. :lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT - You're welcome Gator. Plays a bit easier with the hill there. :D :thumbsup:

I couldnt upload an excel sheet, so I copied it into Word.

143151

If you change the .xls extension to .doc or .zip and upload the spreadsheet will go just fine. Just make sure everybody knows to change the extension back to .xls.

And with leif's test kitchen in full swing just make sure to leave a recipe card for the Warhorse, or even a set of "8X10 color glossies with circles and arrows and a little paragraph on the back of each one..." (I suppose these days that means PowerPoint with animated gifs and a laser pointer) :)

I am surprised no one has mentioned the dreaded "WFYABTA".

And the ideal time to launch an exploring boat is a half dozen turns before Writing so you can negotiate Open Borders with the first guy you meet. And it is truly a royal pain if the first one you meet is Tokugawa, or Isabel of the Inquisition and she got religion and you don't, or not hers.

And with leif's test kitchen in full swing just make sure to leave a recipe card for the Warhorse, or even a set of "8X10 color glossies with circles and arrows and a little paragraph on the back of each one..." (I suppose these days that means PowerPoint with animated gifs and a laser pointer) :)
Kind of forgot to take some screenies. :blush:
But getting a feel for things. ;)
I am surprised no one has mentioned the dreaded "WFYABTA".
You know, that has only happened a couple of times. :p
Most of the refusals to trade have been because I signed Open Borders with someone's worst enemy. Am I tired of hearing that one!! :rolleyes:
And the ideal time to launch an exploring boat is a half dozen turns before Writing so you can negotiate Open Borders with the first guy you meet. And it is truly a royal pain if the first one you meet is Tokugawa, or Isabel of the Inquisition and she got religion and you don't, or not hers.
This actually happened to me on the second trial game. :rolleyes: :high5:
Toku wasn't letting anyone through, the SOB. Between him, Monty and Isabella, I am getting a complex! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I have been very, very careful religion in this game. Each time I have founded a religion, once, or converted, I have regretted the decision. The new AI seems to attack based on religious difference, especially if your power rating is less. I think we will need to watch this closely.

I kind of like the one Workboat strat. I think I'd spend the the first 8 turns on Worker though, even if I lose some of it, it may still speed the worker?

Just checking in before I go TDY. Sounds smart, but I'd run a test of how much we'll lose before doing that. If it is only a few, then worthwhile. I'll try to run one when I return if no one else gets a chance. Also may want it to go to Settler instead if we won't have anything for the worker to do right away. However, could use the worker to chop the hill and put in a mine for a while. ...

Just checking in before I go TDY. Sounds smart, but I'd run a test of how much we'll lose before doing that. If it is only a few, then worthwhile. I'll try to run one when I return if no one else gets a chance. Also may want it to go to Settler instead if we won't have anything for the worker to do right away. However, could use the worker to chop the hill and put in a mine for a while. ...
Hope the trip went well. ;)

Ran two trials so far. :mischief: The only difference between them is building a Settler before the Worker or the Worker before the Settler. Appears to me to be worth going Worker first as the time to build the first city differs only by a turn or two. Here are the logs (I'll add screenies soon :D)

Trial 1:
4000 BC
Scout east and NE. Settler founds Moscow, in place, and starts a Worker. Research begins at 100% on Fishing. The governor wants to work the grass forest as there is a bonus for an Expansive leader when building a worker, so the Worker would be out in 18 turns versus 23 if working the FP. However, with 1 less gold, Fishing is due in 9 turns instead of 8. Keep working the Forest tile.

3970 BC – Meet Shaka, smile at him.

3760 BC – Moscow expands.

3730 BC – We discover Fishing, start Bronze Working at 100%. Change build in Moscow to Work Boat. The Worker has 45 Hammers. MM citizen to FP tile, Work Boat due in 45 turns. Bronze Working changes from 23 turns to 21 turns.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3730BC_Moscow_Worker0000.jpg
3610 BC – We kill a Lion that attacks our Scout. Scout at 0.5/1.

3400 BC – Moscow grows to size 2. We work a FP and a forest tile. Work Boat due in 17 turns, Bronze in 10.

3130 BC – We meet Montezuma and tell him we shall have peace in our time, fat chance with him! Find a GH, pop it and get a Warrior.

3100 BC – Discover Bronze Working, revolt to Slavery, and start The Wheel at 100%. We see two sources of Copper.

3070 BC – We regain control of our Government and find that The Wheel is due in 12 turns.

3010 BC – Moscow grows to size 3. We work the FP, a forest and Spice Hill.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3010BC_Moscow_to_Size_30000.jpg
2920 BC – Moscow produces a Work Boat and we start a Settler. The Worker is now 29 /90 hammers instead of 45/90 hammers. Move Work Boat to Clam south of Moscow and start working it. Citizens are now working FP, Clam and Spice Hill. Settler is now due in 22 turns instead of 25 and The Wheel changed from 6 turns to 5.

We have a little drama going on as a Bear is chasing our Scout and Warrior, as we try to get him back to Moscow.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/2860BC_Bear0000.jpg
2770 BC – We discover The Wheel, start Pottery at 100%, due in 12 turns.

2740 BC – The Bear attacks our Warrior, fortified in a forest, and dies. Our Warrior is now 0.8/2.

2560 BC – Warrior arrives safely in Moscow.

2470 BC – Herodotus has written his History of The Most Powerful Civs and 8-unknowns are listed.

2410 BC – We learn Pottery and start Writing at 100%, due in 16 turns. Shaka adopts Slavery. We see a Wolf off to the NE, no unescorted Settlers that way!

2260 BC – We produce a Settler and go back to our Worker. The Worker has 8 hammers remaining from the original 45. Send Settler off with the Warrior for a Hammer City.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/2260BC_Moscow0000.jpg
2140 BC – Found St. Petersburg and start a Warrior. Reduce research rate to 80%, adds one turn to the completion of Writing.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/2140BC_Our_World0000.jpg
1960 BC – Complete Worker. With Writing due in two turns, start a Warrior. Worker starts a Cottage on the FP.

1900 BC – Discover Writing and start Sailing at 80%, due in 16 turns. We see a Barb Archer3 tiles north of St. Petersburg. Leave Warrior build going in Moscow. Send Moscow Warrior to St. Petersburg.

1810 BC – St. Petersburg grows to size 2. We sign an Open Borders agreement with Shaka. The Warrior reaches St. Petersburg.

1780 BC – Moscow completes Warrior, starts on Library.

1750 BC – Worker completes Cottage.

1720 BC – Move Worker towards Spice Hill. Moscow grew to size 4.

1660 BC – Start chopping Spice Hill’s forest.

1630 AD – St. Petersburg produces a Warrior, start a Barracks.

That completes 79 turns.

And trial 2:
4000 BC – Scout east and NE. Settle on the spot, founding Moscow and start a Worker. Begin researching Fishing, working the forest tile.

3970 BC – Meet Shaka and wave to him across the strait.

3670 BC – Moscow expands.

3730 BC – We learn Fishing and begin research on Bronze Working at 100%. Change production in Moscow to Work Boat, there are, again, 45 hammers towards the Worker. MM citizen to the FP, Bronze due in 21 turns.

3610 BC – Pop the hut and get Agriculture, wish I hadn’t done that.

3400 BC – Moscow grows to size 2, work a FP and a forested Grass tile.

3100 BC – We meet Monty, nasty as ever! :D We learn Bronze Working, revolt to Slavery and start on The Wheel at 100%.

3010 BC – Moscow grows to size 3 and we work the FP, a forested Grass and the Spice Hill tiles.

2920 BC – We complete the Work Boat and continue on the Worker. Work Boat claims the Clam tile south of Moscow. MM citizens so that they work Clam, FP and Spice Hill. The Worker has 29/90 hammers available, due in 8 turns.

2770 BC – We discover The Wheel, start Pottery at 100%, due in 10 turns.

2680 BC – Moscow produces a Worker and starts on a Settler, due in 21 turns. Move Worker to Spice Hill, takes 2 turns. Pottery due in 7 turns.

2620 BC – Hinduism is founded in another land. Worker begins chopping the Spice Hill.

2500 BC – Worker completes chop.

The “Venerable Bede” has completed his History of the Most Advanced Civs and all are Unknown to us.

2470 BC – We learn Pottery and begin researching Writing at 100%, due in 17 turns. Worker begins mining the hill. Notice that Wolf off to the NE. Send our Scout after him.

2290 BC – The Scout kills the Wolf, now 0.9/1. Worker completes the mine and moves to the FP, requires 2-turns.

2260 BC – Worker begins Cottage.

2170 BC – Moscow produces a Settler, begins a Warrior. Judaism is founded in a far away land.

2080 BC – Found the town of St. Petersburg and start a Warrior. Turn science down to 80%, Writing due 1-turn later, now 4 turns.

2050 BC – Cottage completed.

I tried a trial tonight......very hammer poor........have we thought about maybe settling a hammer rich city first and then settle the commerce city second?

The hammers are in the clamshells, folks, so get out the whip.

The worker first and watching the production decay strikes me as a waste of growth cycles and loss of commerce. If you need a filler until Fishing use something that allows the town to grow while waiting. The extra commerce alone will be worth it. That more than 90% loss of the food invested in the worker really bothers me.

The hammers are in the clamshells, folks, so get out the whip.

The worker first and watching the production decay strikes me as a waste of growth cycles and loss of commerce. If you need a filler until Fishing use something that allows the town to grow while waiting. The extra commerce alone will be worth it. That more than 90% loss of the food invested in the worker really bothers me.
Well, that is true. But as you pointed out to me earlier, whipping the capital is not always the best thing to do. I'll try to run through another trial this evening and start with a Warrior as A'AA suggested. Let's see how much difference there is in pop level. We are getting to size 3 now and, without an MP Warrior, size 4 brings on a red face, no?

If using the whip is what we want to do, then during the game we should make this something we discuss before we do it in a turn set.

I was also intrigued by the posts in which you and A'AA were discussing trading and how we can hurt ourselves by trading certain techs or giving some as tribute. With 17 fellow inhabitants in this world, we'll need to figure this out and discuss it in game. When Monty or Issy or Toku or Hannibal come calling and demand Alphabet, I would like to know what to do. In the test games, they do it a lot!! :eek:

EDIT - I just noticed that Gyathaar updated the screenie in the start of our thread to show the blue circles the AI proposes that we settle. There is one to the northeast. :mischief: :D

Well, that is true. But as you pointed out to me earlier, whipping the capital is not always the best thing to do......

If using the whip is what we want to do, then during the game we should make this something we discuss before we do it in a turn set.

I was also intrigued by the posts in which you and A'AA were discussing trading and how we can hurt ourselves by trading certain techs or giving some as tribute. With 17 fellow inhabitants in this world, we'll need to figure this out and discuss it in game. When Monty or Issy or Toku or Hannibal come calling and demand Alphabet, I would like to know what to do. In the test games, they do it a lot!! :eek:.......

EDIT - I just noticed that Gyathaar updated the screenie in the start of our thread to show the blue circles the AI proposes that we settle. There is one to the northeast. :mischief: :D


The best time to whip is when you are 1 over the happy limit, are one turn from growth and can do a 2pop whip. Takes a ton of micromanagement to set it up, though.

And it is in Bureaucracy where whipping the capitol causes the most pain, unless the citizenry are working unimproved fields. But on a seacoast where every 2g is worth 3 there is hardly ever an unimproved field not worth working.

The best way to avoid those kind of demands is a show of strength. Boats in the water and garrisons ashore. And if you have that even if they do demand you can tell them to stuff it with confidence. The biggest problems I have had on these maps come when the military, and that includes the navy, is woefully weak, otherwise it is a non starter. A crowded map makes it tougher because the bozos out there run out of room real soon now.

Religion is the the other big firestarter and the only way I have found to avoid those problems is I haven't found one yet that is reliable.

The best time to whip is when you are 1 over the happy limit, are one turn from growth and can do a 2pop whip. Takes a ton of micromanagement to set it up, though.

And it is in Bureaucracy where whipping the capitol causes the most pain, unless the citizenry are working unimproved fields. But on a seacoast where every 2g is worth 3 there is hardly ever an unimproved field not worth working.
I think we will want to try to get to Bureaucracy fairly soon to enhance the gold flow? The other civics question will be Slavery or Caste?
The best way to avoid those kind of demands is a show of strength.
Yup. The problem is playing aggressively and build orders. We will need Galleys and troops and what has been happening to me, in a trading game, is by the time I have enough boats and troops built, the AI has the next generation of tech so I am attacking Longbows with Swords and Cats. What that means is that the more hammers that go into Triremes, the less are available for unit building. And we will need Triremes to protect our fishing resources.

Of course, all this depends upon who our neighbors are. In the test game, Monty is next door and he is a pain unless we give him regular tribute, and even then, when we become too weak, he's all over us! :eek: :hammer:
Religion is the the other big firestarter and the only way I have found to avoid those problems is I haven't found one yet that is reliable.
I have avoided this by becoming a heathen atheist! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ran a third trial beginning with a Warrior and allowing the pop to grow. Everything does happen faster as Bede predicted. :goodjob:

Here is a summary log:
Trial 3 – Let the population grow.
4000 BC – Scout NE and N. Settler settles in place and strats a Warrior. Research is Fishing at 100%. We work the FP tile.

3970 BC – We meet Shaka and tell him of our wish for peaceful co-existence.

3760 BC – We learn of Fishing and start Bronze Working at 100%. Change production in Moscow to Work Boat. We are 3 turns from growth to size 2.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3760BC_Discover_Fishing0000.jpg
3670 BC – Moscow expands due to culture. Moscow grows to size 2. MM citizen of Moscow to work the FP and Spice Hill, knocks one turn off Bronze’s completion.

3610 BC – Decide not to pop the GH, don’t want to get BW in this trial. Buddhism founded in a far away land.

3340 BC – Wolf shows up again to the NE.

3250 BC – Work Boat completes and we start a Worker. The Warrior is down to 2 hammers of 22. Work Boat works the southern Clam.

This is an interesting decision. If we work the FP and Clam, there are 2 turns until growth to size 3. If we start a Worker or Settler, we will remain at size 2. Decide to go back to a Warrior for 2 turns until the pop grows.

Change Worker to Warrior.

3190 BC – Moscow grows to size 3, change production to Worker, due in 15 turns.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3190BC_Moscow_size_30000.jpg
3160 BC – We learn Bronze Working, revolt to Slavery and start The Wheel at 100%. Our Scout kills a Wolf that attacks it.

3130 BC – Our government is restored.

2920 BC – We meet old sourpuss, Monty, who thinks he’d like to give peace a chance.

2860 BC – We discover The Wheel and start on Pottery at 100%, due in 11 turns.

2800 BC – We produce a Worker, start on a Settler, due in 21 turns. All the Hammers towards a Warrior are gone. Send the Worker to the Spice Hill.

2740 BC – Worker begins chop.

2590 BC – Chop completes and Worker begins mine. MM citizen off of Spice Hill and on to Forest Grass. Saves 2-turns on the Settler.

2530 BC – Learn Pottery and start Writing at 100%, due in 18 turns.
Shaka adopts slavery.

2470 BC – St. Augustine completes his great history of the Most Advanced Civilizations and they are all unknown.

2440 BC – Mine completes. MM citizen off of Forest Grass to mines Spice Hill. Move Worker to FP.

2380 BC – Begin building Cottage on FP.

2290 BC – Moscow produces a Settler and starts on a Warrior as there are 9 turns left until Writing completes.

2260 BC – Judaism is founded in a land far away.

2200 BC – We found the city of St. Petersburg and start a Barracks. Reduce research to 80%, Writing adds 1 turn, due in 7 turns.

2170 BC – Moscow Warrior, start another. Cottage completed.

2140 BC – Worker begins building a road to St. Petersburg.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/2140BC_Our_world0001.jpg

Wanted to make sure everyone saw this.

The Warlords teams use the standard HoF Mod for Windows, version 2.08. This has been updated to HOF_Mod-2.08.002 as of 28 November.



In the games I played, I built a scout first instead of the warrior so that we could use him on the galley later.

Wanted to make sure everyone saw this.
Thanks, loaded and ready!! :D
In the games I played, I built a scout first instead of the warrior so that we could use him on the galley later.
Oops! :eek: Didn't check this. Can the Scout be built in 8 turns? :D

In leif's trial Moscow should now be building another workboat so that at size 3 it can use the other clam for coin and food. And then another settler. St Pete can train the military needed. For the foreseeable future Moscow should do nothing but settlers.

It doesn't have the hammers for anything else, but has lots of food. And if you put the third town on the plain due north Moscow becomes a fishing town. Use the forest chops to the north for boats or buildings in Moscow but give the irrigated grass to Town 3 so it can make use of the hills and forests.

Oops! Didn't check this. Can the Scout be built in 8 turns? Nope, same cost as a warrior, but we could complete it before hammers disappear.

I've made a new test game using the 2.08.002 HOF mod. Also fixed 2 items I noticed in leif's game. It looks like the river cuts across all 3 tiles and that there is coast to the east of the river mouth. Also looks like the spice hill is on a coastal point.

I couldn't replace fog on the save, so a few extra tiles are visible from where the game initially placed units. No additional resources are revealed so this should be OK.

EDIT: Attachment located in post #62

I editted the attachment again to remove a goody hut that was too close to the start location. First time I popped it I got a tech and decided I should remove the hut.

In leif's trial Moscow should now be building another workboat so that at size 3 it can use the other clam for coin and food. And then another settler. St Pete can train the military needed. For the foreseeable future Moscow should do nothing but settlers.

It doesn't have the hammers for anything else, but has lots of food. And if you put the third town on the plain due north Moscow becomes a fishing town. Use the forest chops to the north for boats or buildings in Moscow but give the irrigated grass to Town 3 so it can make use of the hills and forests.
Good points all Bede. I stopped because once we get to this point, what we do will depend upon what the terrain is like. Just testing the scenarios for the start. Of course, if we run into Toku on our island 10 tiles away, I think we'll be switching to military!! :eek: ;) :rolleyes:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I editted the attachment again to remove a goody hut that was too close to the start location. First time I popped it I got a tech and decided I should remove the hut.

:goodjob: I'm downloading now to give it a trial run! :D

Don't bother. It is not at Epic speed. I'm fixing it now.

OK, I've played with the editor enough tonight but I think I finally got it built correctly. Epic speed, Peter the Great, Monarch level, etc...

Rechecking the editor can make your eyes :crazyeye:

Ok, let's give it a try! ;)

While I was sending out invites I pm'd Jove about joining us. I heard back from him tonight and we have added him as an "Official Lurker". Currently his work schedule will limit his time thru December, but he'll try to drop by as time permits. He doesn't have Warlords yet, but he has placed high in some of the 4OTM games.

Welcome to the assylum Jove!! ;) :mischief: :D

Gator, could you make that island a bit smaller? ;)

Gator's save turn log follows:
4000 BC – Scout east and NE. Wow, a little bit different!! :D Settler in place, start a Scout, citizen working the FP. Set research to Fishing at 100%, due in 8 turns.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/4000BC_Gator_start0000.jpg

3880 BC – The Scout’s work is finished. This is a mighty small island!! :eek:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3880BC_Gator_Scout_done0000.jpg

3760 BC – We learn how to go Fishing (now if we would only have Music and a Beer, we’d be all set!) and start Bronze Working at 100%, due in 21 turns. Change production in Moscow to Work Boat, due in 45 turns. Moscow to grow in 3 turns. There are 8 hammers towards a Scout.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3760BC_Gator_Moscow0000.jpg

3670 BC – Moscow grows to size 2. MM citizens to work FP and Spice Hill.

3610 BC – Buddhism is founded in a land far away.

3310 BC – Hinduism is founded in a distant land.

3250 BC – Work Boat completes in Moscow, start a Worker. We are 2 turns from growing to size 3, so we start on the Scout again for 2 turns. The Scout has only 2 hammers remaining of the 8 it had before the Work Boat. Citizens work the Clam and the FP.

3190 BC – Moscow grows to size 3. Change to a Worker, which we will get one turn faster, and work the Clam, FP and Spice Hill.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/3190BC_Gator_Moscow_Worker0000.jpg

3160 BC – We learn Bronze Working and start on The Wheel at 100%, due in 9. Revolt to Slavery. We have copper 2-tiles north and 2-tiles NE of Moscow.

2860 BC – We learn The Wheel and start on Pottery at 100%, due in 11 turns.

2800 BC – We complete a Worker and start a Settler, due in 21 turns. Worker heads for the Spice Hill.

2740 BC – Worker begins chop on Spice Hill.

2590 BC – Chop completed and Worker begins mining.

2530 BC – We learn Pottery and start Writing at 100%, due in 17 turns. Forgot to MM citizen from Spice Hill to Forested Grass, do so now. Goes from Settler in 10 to Settler in 8 turns. Changes Writing from 17 to 18 turns.

2470 BC – St. Augustine writes about The Most Advanced Civs and they are all unknown to us.

2440 BC – Mine completes, change citizen from Forested Grass to Spice Hill. Remains at 5-turns to Settler but Writing is now due in 14 instead of 15.

2410 BC – Worker to FP.

2380 BC - Worker begins Cottage on FP.

2290 BC – Settler completes in Moscow, start a Work Boat, due in 10 turns. Start Settler moving north to claim the copper.

2200 BC – St. Petersburg founded and we start a Warrior.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/2200BC-Gator_St.jpg

2140 BC – Cottage complete, worker begins road to St. Petersburg.

2020 BC – Judaism founded in a distant land.

1990 BC – We discover Writing and start Sailing at 80%. Work Boat completes in Moscow and we start a Settler.

1960 BC – Work Boat claims Clam and we MM citizens to work both Clams, the FP and the Spice Hill. Settler now due in 15 turns, we gained a turn.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/1960BC_Gator_Moscow0000.jpg

1870 BC – St. Petersburg grows to size 2.

1750 BC – Road completed to St. Petersburg. Worker moves to claim Copper.

1720 BC – St. Petersburg Warrior, start a Barracks. Move Warrior to Moscow. Worker begins chop of Copper Hill.

1600 BC – Sailing completes and we start Animal Husbandry at 90%, due in 10 turns. Need it for the Sheep north of St. Petersburg.

1570 BC – Chop completes and we begin mining.

1510 BC – Settler completes. The island will only fit 3 cities. So we start a Galley.

1480 BC – We meet who else but Julius Caesar, who offers us some salad. We trade Clam for Furs and agree to open borders.

1450 BC – Stonehenge was built in a land far away.

1420 BC – We settle Novgorod and start a Library. Reduce research rate to 80%, Animal Husbandry due in 4-turns.

1330 BC – St. Petersburg grows to size 3.

1300 BC – We discover Animal Husbandry and begin studying Alphabet at 80%, due in 28 turns. We now have access to Copper. Worker moves to Sheep and starts a Pasture.

1270 BC – Barracks completes, start an Axeman.

1120 BC – Pasture completes and we road to connect it.

1090 BC – St. Petersburg Axe => Axe. Moscow grows to size 6, turn on the avoid growth button.

1060 BC – Moscow completes Galley, starts a Worker. Galley loads the Scout and we’re off to explore.

1000 BC – The Oracle is built in a land far away.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/1000BC_Gator_Our_World0000.jpg

Are there some good articles out there to read? I can't seem to get the hang of this type of map.......I whip too much and get too much unhappiness or I expand too fast and kill the economy or I keep up in research but get stomped because my military is too weak....I can't seem to find the balance.

Haven't seen much map specific. Been playing Gator's save and am doing OK, not enough military though but better than other games thus far.

I have tried to use the whip very sparingly. :hmm:

Are there some good articles out there to read? I can't seem to get the hang of this type of map.......I whip too much and get too much unhappiness or I expand too fast and kill the economy or I keep up in research but get stomped because my military is too weak....I can't seem to find the balance.

Have you read Excl's article in the War Academy on city specialization.

@rrau, trot on over to Realms Beyond and check out some of the reports on Epic 2 Eastern Gem Dealers.

http://realmsbeyond.net/civ is the home page.

Alan posted this in the maintenance thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4820759&postcount=41)

26-hours from the post time means to me about midnight eastern standard time (GMT -5)

Who should start? I am thinking whoever should move the Scout E and NE and then save and post a screenie and let's see what we have? :hmm:

Who should start? I am thinking whoever should move the Scout E and NE and then save and post a screenie and let's see what we have? :hmm:

I was thinking about starting with our stronger players, something along the lines of this. So many critical decisions come in the early stages, besides I started the last one.

A'AA
Bede
leif
sanabas
rrau
Gator

Is a 30/20/10 turn rotation to start good?

Sounds good to me. :goodjob: :D

EDIT - Maybe you should put me on the bottom? :p

The whole thing may change based on availability. I was mainly trying to get A'AA and Bede up towards the top of the play order.

I was mainly trying to get A'AA and Bede up towards the top of the play order.
:goodjob: :high5: :thumbsup:

Who should start? I am thinking whoever should move the Scout E and NE and then save and post a screenie and let's see what we have? :hmm:

I be back. First time driving in a snow storm in ten years. I definately miss the hot weather climates. That makes absolute sense. I'll go whereever you want me too. I'll be out of the net 3-8 Dec, luckily in LA so I can get some warmth, but could start off. I can do the scout move and post a screenie so we can figure out what to do. That may affect if we build in place and/or what we first research/build.

Since you'll be out 3 thru 8 Dec, it makes perfect sense for you to start.

I'm dying to see what lies out in the fog. :scan: But if it is nothing significant, I think we have pretty much figured how to handle the initial stage of the game, so keep on trucking. But it would still be nice to see the screenie... :mischief:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

@A'AA - Did you read that there is a new HOF Mod version? Version 2.08.002

You can get it HERE. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/announcement.php?f=166&a=437)

Roster
A'AA - up
Bede - on deck
leif
sanabas
rrau
Gator

@A'AA - First player played 40 turns to kick off the last SGOTM, so shoot for 30 or 40 depending on your time. Good luck and take good notes.

Here is the first screenshot.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143403&stc=1&d=1164971539

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143403&stc=1&d=1164971539

First, the spice is a plains/forest, not a grassland/hill, which is the same for initial food/hammers, but... I need to get my eyes checked with blue marble.

Definately need a team vote, as without doing any analysis, my gut tells me to move the settler to where the scout is now. That gets me an extra hammer in my initial capital, a fish which is +1 food over a clam after I get the fishing boat, two hills that give me more hammers initially and to make chopping valuable early; long term total of 4 production tiles. However loss of two turns and floodplains (initial food) in capital.

Other likely options are move 2E, but I don't like as then there are no tiles with two hammers for the initial settler, but would get extra floodplain in long run. Or settle in place.

EDIT: First player played 40 turns to kick off the last SGOTM, so shoot for 30 or 40 depending on your time.
Is it a standard in these to start 40 and then 20 each afterwards?

EDIT2: First thought, without analysis, is if we move, Settler first is now a good option when it really wasn't before. It will take 9 turns to fishing now. It only takes 30 turns, instead of 47, for a settler. Also, 11 turns later we can have our first fishing boat (2 hammer overrun from settler). After the fishing boats we would be able to do a worker as we could have finished BW by that time which could then chop and mine hills.

EDIT3:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/AAbarachAmadan/4000BCScreenshot.jpg

Here is the first screenshot.

To link to an attachment you need to use the [ attach ]attachid[ /attach ] tags (without the spaces)

@A'AA - I see you are valiantly trying to get the screenie to come up.

You could also try the upload file option at the bottom of the page, scroll all the way down. The file upload system is easier to use than it used to be. Works better than attachments in many ways.

If I can help, please tell me how? ;)

To link to an attachment you need to use the [ attach ]attachid[ /attach ] tags (without the spaces)
Hi Gyathaar,

I went looking for a guide to uploading images to the forum but couldn't one. The closest thing I found was in the Civ III SG forum, but it doesn't talk about the new easy upload system nor about the new attachment system.

If it exists, could you please provide a link for A'AA?

to use the upload feature.. click the upload link at top or bottom of page...
select the file to upload, and click the upload button..

find the link of the file you uploaded, rightclick it and select 'copy link location'
paste the link into your post ( inside img tags if it is a picture )

Thanks Gyathaar. :)

Here is the darn screenshot. I hope.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/AAbarachAmadan/4000BCScreenshot.jpg

Hooray!! :goodjob: :goodjob:

Its there! :thumbsup: :high5:

With the terrain being so narrow east to west and the need to take 3-turns to settle where the Scout is, I'm going to suggest what I thought I never would. :eek: :blush: ;)

I'm thinking we should settle in place and use our capital as a commerce center and GP farm and use the second city to start producing things. Second city to Scout's location, unless we find something even better. (I know I'm greedy) :rolleyes:

The work we did when we thought the northern spice was on a hill suggests we don't chop that forest for some time. We need the hammers. An we could build a workshop on the plain N and NE of the Settler, once we have Metal Casting.

It will be interesting to see if the land to the west and south of the settler is connected or not? We have the opportunity to share the clam to the west with a city if we can get there? :hmm:

EDIT - And with Stone, do we think about going for Pyramids? If so, how does that effect where we settle?

My $0.02. :D

I like the idea of moving the settler to where the scout is.

What do you think of eventually settling one tile north of where the settler currently is and cottaging the floodplains and irritating the grass and plains and make it a commerce city? With the two spices and the two flood plain cottages and everything else irrigated, we should be able to pull in lots of specialists under caste system. We'd lose one of the clams there, though, so maybe settling the future town where the settler is now would work. It'd trade food bonuses, but would have more ocean tiles in the city which have less gold.

I think we need both food resources if we're going to build a city for commerce and GP. I'm not so sure of that trade, one food and up to 5 coins for 4 food (which becomes 5 with lighthouse iirc?) and 2 coins? By hiring specialists, I think we can more than make up the coins.

For me the question is 3-turns to settle or start immediately?

If you get a chance, I've been reading the CFR SGOTM02 thread. They did some excellent planning around the use of Great People, although I haven't finished it yet to see exactly what they did. If they pulled it off, the result seems to show the power of using them. I think that is one area we could improve? :D

I'm a fan of found in place and build the second city where the scout is.

I'm a fan of found in place and build the second city where the scout is.
:cool: Any particular reasons why it is better than another alternative? :hmm:

If we decide to found in place, I think getting that second settler out ASAP is important. But we also need to get out a workboat for exploration.

Also, is the 9 turns for fishing 9 turns from founding or 9 turns into the game?

I think cutting 17 turns off of making a settler by moving the three spots more than makes up for the 3 turn delay in founding.

If we decide to found in place, I think getting that second settler out ASAP is important. But we also need to get out a workboat for exploration.

Also, is the 9 turns for fishing 9 turns from founding or 9 turns into the game?

I think cutting 17 turns off of making a settler by moving the three spots more than makes up for the 3 turn delay in founding.
Fishing comes 8 or 9 turns from founding. If we settle in place, research is a bit faster because we can work the FP (+1 Gold), the Clam, once the Work Boat is out, and the Spice Forested Plain (+1 Gold), all yield some gold.

As far as the 17-turns are concerned, that will slow research as there will be no pop growth during that time and the only commerce tiles are in the salt water.

It seems that settling in place provides the most early commerce and settling on the scout provides the best early production. Which is better? I guess that is what we need to decide. :crazyeye:

:cool: Any particular reasons why it is better than another alternative? :hmm:

Not yet. Mostly gut instinct, I'm still learning the game. I don't like taking 3 turns to found our first city, just to get extra shields. Founding in place looks like it will produce a big commerce city, and 2 fishing boats will make for a lot of surplus food for building a settler to grab the stone and be high production. It's a bit of a gamble that we won't need early, quick production, say because a german archer wanders into view, which always made civ3 life interesting. But I'd rather take the quick commerce, as the quicker we get basic stuff researched, the quicker we can put the shields to work on useful stuff.

Thanks Sanabas. :goodjob:

I think it is safe to say that we are all learning. I know I learn better when I understand the rationale for a certain point of view. And, I do enjoy the interchange of ideas. :crazyeye:

Let's see what others have to say... :blush:

Without looking at hard numbers, I'm starting to like the settler move for 2 reasons.

1) Odds are we will lose the 2nd clam from settling in place if and when someone settles the tile SW SW W of our start position.

2) With 17 other civs the move may help protect our second city spot. If we are not alone this could be huge.

I've editted the earlier test game to duplicate what we can currently see. So we can do a little quick testing, unless A'AA has done a worksheet.

I'm going to try the save, will post back shortly.

Not yet. Mostly gut instinct, I'm still learning the game. I don't like taking 3 turns to found our first city, just to get extra shields. Founding in place looks like it will produce a big commerce city, and 2 fishing boats will make for a lot of surplus food for building a settler to grab the stone and be high production. It's a bit of a gamble that we won't need early, quick production, say because a german archer wanders into view, which always made civ3 life interesting. But I'd rather take the quick commerce, as the quicker we get basic stuff researched, the quicker we can put the shields to work on useful stuff.

I'm with the PsiBiunny on this one. That early commerce and food is way too valuable. And unless there is someone else on the island getting to the production site is less critical.

One of the nice things about Warlords is that there are lots of spiffy early Wonders other than Pyramids and Oracle that attract the other guys attention - they really like the Great Wall for instance.

With this layout I would give serious attention to using the capitol as a commerce/worker/settler town and set the second town to a long term project like the Pyramids, and then use a third town as a military depot.
To make that work you grow out the capitol to the limit of its high food/high commerce without paying a whole lot of attention to hammers then set it on a worker/settler cycle until you have all the locations you want or need, then get to building infrastructure in the capitol as needed.

But early food and commerce should never be ignored.

If we do settle in place, what build order are we looking at? We need at least 2 workboats - 1 for food and one to explore, a settler/warrior pair, then another workboat for the second clam.

I'm just trying to figure out how to get the best start we can. ;)

Okay I just ran 2 quick tests. In the first one I settled in place and in the second one I moved the settler. Here are the quick results.

Settle In Place
It took 49 turns to get a work boat and the first settler.
Research completed on Fishing, Wheel, Pottery and Bronze Working.
City is size 3, set to grow in 10 more turns and next work boat due in 14 turns.

GatorLouis: Testing settle in spot vs move
Moscow founded
Moscow begins: Scout
Research begun: Fishing

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)
Tech learned: Fishing
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 8 (3760 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Moscow begins: Work Boat
GatorLouis: Stay on the FP until we grow to size 2, but switch to workboat

Turn 9 (3730 BC)

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)

Turn 19 (3430 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel

Turn 20 (3400 BC)
Research begun: Pottery

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
GatorLouis: mm off 2hammers to our 4fpt clams, growth in 2 turns then I'll start the settler

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
GatorLouis: switch to settler in 22 turns (best speed w/o a 2nd workboat)
GatorLouis:

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Moscow begins: Scout
Moscow begins: Settler

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)
GatorLouis: select BW since it will complete same time as settler

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)

Turn 38 (2860 BC)

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 40 (2800 BC)

Turn 41 (2770 BC)

Turn 42 (2740 BC)

Turn 43 (2710 BC)

Turn 44 (2680 BC)

Turn 45 (2650 BC)

Turn 46 (2620 BC)

Turn 47 (2590 BC)

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 49 (2530 BC)
Research begun: Sailing
Moscow begins: Work Boat


Moving Settler
It took only 44 turns to get a completed scout (or warrior same cost), work boat and settler. This path only wasted 2 (EDIT: actually only 1) hammers inbetween scout and start of work boat.
Research completed on Fishing, Wheel, and Pottery. Bronze Working is due in 15 turns.
City is size 2, set to grow in 5 turns and next work boat due in 14 turns.

GatorLouis: Testing 3 turn settler move

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)
Moscow founded
Moscow begins: Scout
Research begun: Fishing

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)
Moscow's borders expand
Moscow finishes: Scout

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior
GatorLouis: Scout or warrior can be completed prior to Fishing
Tech learned: Fishing

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Moscow begins: Work Boat
GatorLouis: start the work boat
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

Turn 15 (3550 BC)

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 19 (3430 BC)
GatorLouis: a mm tradeoff, working the grass forest lets WB complete 1 turn faster, while working the clams lets Wheel complete 1 turn faster - I stay with the faster workboat

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
Moscow begins: Work Boat
Moscow begins: Settler
GatorLouis: select settler now even though we are size 2, growth is about 12 turns away so no point in waiting

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
Moscow begins: Settler

Turn 26 (3220 BC)
GatorLouis: fishing boat adds 3 fpt to the fish tile, settler will complete in 18 turns

Turn 27 (3190 BC)

Turn 28 (3160 BC)

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)

Turn 32 (3040 BC)

Turn 33 (3010 BC)

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working

Turn 39 (2830 BC)

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
Contact made: English Empire

Turn 41 (2770 BC)

Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
Contact made: German Empire

Turn 45 (2650 BC)
St. Petersburg founded
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat

Turn 46 (2620 BC)

Turn 47 (2590 BC)

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 49 (2530 BC)


Ran the 2nd scenario thru turn 49 for comparison.
Moscow is size 3 with work boat due in only 6 turns
Founded St. Pete in original start location (only way to grab both incenses & both clams), it will grow in 7 turns and has added 5 hammers to a build.
Bronze working is now down to 8 turns. So we are currently 8 turns behind on research but have our 2nd city in place.

By having the second city up and already growing at Turn 49 and by having the 2nd Moscow work boat only 6 turns away from completion I think we should be able to make up the early 8 turn research deficit.

Below is an Excel attachment showing two different approaches, assuming we would use these two spots and city sites 1 & 2, which may change after another scout move, but only way to really compare them for now.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/50863/SWOTM03.rar

One is settle in place, focus on stay, grow and then expansion. The second is focus on move, expansion and then grow. At the end of 60 turns:

Food = same (1 difference at total size of 4)
Production = +22% if move
Commerce = -18% if move
Move already has worker out and about, while stay will get third workboat out sooner.

Total of all three is better under stay as we lose more #'s in commerce, but I always look at percentages.

Bad: If move, capital definately loses lots of commerce and it is generally the good one to make the commerce hub, which would probably be lost.

Good: More early production. Maybe more centered capital, but only slightly.

I ALWAYS like to have my first city on a hills/plain (but never on a grass/hill) for the extra production; I always chose production over commerce early (well, within reason, lots of gold/gems would change my mind). I'd rather be able to expand and war. I just trade my way back to the commerce loss and have the early production to take the early military lead. I often find myself shutting down research, but rarely have nothing to do with my production.

My vote would be move, but that is based upon my playing style.

Ran two tests as Gator did but mine we're different. I made an Excel Spreadsheet which I'll attach below as a zip file.

Trial 1 is the Trial1a map I made a while ago and in it we start a Worker and when Fishing is learned, we change to Work Boat and then to Settler.

Trial 2 is similar except we start with a Worker, change to Work Boat upon discovery of Fishing and then build a Worker and then a Settler.

Trials 3 and 4 use similar build orders but are on two different maps. Trial 3 is the same map as above and trial 4 is one Gator created. Trials 1 thru 4 have a Spice Hill up north instead of a Spice Plains Forest. Anyway, in these 2 trials we settle in place and start on a Warrior so the city grows. Once Fishing is in, we change to a Work Boat, then a Worker and then a Settler.

Trials 5 and 6 are played on Gator's new map of today that shows what A'AA discovered when he moved the Scout.

Trial 5 builds a Settler completely from turn 3 through turn 33 and then starts a Work Boat.

Trial 6 starts a Settler, then upon discovery of Fishing, changes to a Work Boat and then to a Warrior for 2 turns while Moscow grows to size 3, then back to the Settler. I was amazed that the Settler lost so few hammers as compared with the Worker in earlier trials, I think it was only 2 or 3.

I note on the spreadsheet when builds and techs complete.

It should be no surprise that techs finish faster when settling in place but I think we will have a stronger position if we move the Settler and follow the order in Trial 6.

Hope this helps us in our decision. :mischief:

I think I like the move option also.

Let's quit spoiling the game with test files. I appreciate the effort you guys put into them, but I fear the effort is wasted (never one to mince words that TGOM).

The issue before the court is a simple one: commerce vs production. My personal preference says commerce, as I can do a lot with an advanced military. Other preferences are for production, and I can also do a lot with a lot of not so advanced military, especially early in the game. But IMNSHO, commerce will trump troops every time.

A higher quality military means you accomplish the job with fewer troops which means you have more to spend learning how to have an even more advanced military. A lot of people focus on city maintenance costs in these games, especially when diplonomination is the goal. Know what, it isn't the cost of city maintenance that kills your economy, it is the cost of all those troops outside your borders. Capturing a developed city will at least pay for itself, usually. Moving your troops from that newly captured territory on the way to the next target can sink you. Moving fewer troops with the backing of a stronger economy is my preferred way to go.

So I generally trade production for commerce.

In this instance the difference is not great so I am willing to follow the first player's lead without any quibbling.

The great thing about Warlords: there are multiple paths to the same end. :cool:

The issue before the court is a simple one: commerce vs production. My personal preference says commerce, as I can do a lot with an advanced military. Other preferences are for production, and I can also do a lot with a lot of not so advanced military, especially early in the game. But IMNSHO, commerce will trump troops every time.
This is the central issue and the difference is not that great, +/- 20% more or less. On Archipeligo maps, there is much to build to get your military moving. Besides troops, one requires a Galley for every two units to move them and Triremes to protect your fishing gear. In this case, we also need Work Boats and workers, I think this brings me to err on the side of production in this one.
Of course, I could be wrong and often am, but that is how I see it.
In this instance the difference is not great so I am willing to follow the first player's lead without any quibbling.
This is how we have always played as a team. I think we have presented our opinions and have all thought hard about what is best to do. Now it is up to A'AA to digest what we all have said, look at the situation through his experienced eyes, take hold of the mouse and play the first set however he sees fit to do so. Then we can have a look and discuss where we go from there.

Good luck A'AA, we stand behind whatever you decide to do. Good luck!! :thumbsup:

EDIT -
@A'AA - Earlier you asked if it was standard to play a certain number of turns. It is not and it is up to the team to decide. In CIII, we generally have played 20 turns followed by 10 turns each thereafter. In CIV, in the first turns there seems less to do, even though the decisions are still important. So, it looks like you are cleared for 30 to 40 turns. :high5:

In this instance the difference is not great so I am willing to follow the first player's lead without any quibbling.

Either option has its benefits. As Leif said the person with the mouse makes the decisions and the difference is not detrimental. So roll on A'AA.

As for the test games, I've been doing them as a way to learn more about the Civ 4 game in general not specifically this game. Sometimes you wonder about the path not chosen. When I was learning CivIII and C3C I'd frequently save the game at a critical juncture and then play them to a finish under 2 different victory conditions.

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Thanks for the Con gentlemen. Here we are at the beginning of turn 40, 2800BC. Based upon what there is available to do, I’d recommend the next person also do 40 turns. If below is too detailed or not detailed enough let me know.

After putting the kids to bed and debating it again, decided to move the settler.

Capital construction: I did a modified plan 6, starting the settler and speeding the Workboat to get back to the settler quickly. Will be growing fast now and currently building a workboat. Reasoning is new city will be + 4-5 net gain for food and production, while getting to size 2 will only net us +1 in the near term.

Built 2d city on original settler start site. Since it gets +50% for hammer contribution to workers, decided to start it off with a worker, giving it +5 net for now. Worker can do more than size growth in the immediate future.

Scout moved around apparently upside-down horseshoe island, running into a bear on the other side. Avoided it, dancing around from turns 14-17, hoping I might sneak by, and then deciding to leave best alone when it moved so I couldn’t pass to open up the rest of the fog. I usually run from these beasts unless I’ve already been promoted!! I can’t quite tell if the island continues, figure we could use a workboat to check when we explore West.

Research: Obviously Fishing first. With 2 forested hills, decided to go bronze working next, hoping for something lucky, but didn’t get it. Copper on island, but far, far away. In 3010BC, really debated between going Animal Husbandry since I saw the cows or The Wheel, Pottery. Decided on the latter for immediate city connection which should break even by the time Alphabet is found.

We have contact with both Alexander and Mao, who share the island to the South East (with the stone on it).

Recommended Course of Action:

Move scout to 1E of cows and fortify to be fog-buster and early warning in case we need to build military for future barbarians or an unexpected island extension. Also can cover next settler if we build one to move up near cows, though I’d like to be able to chop jungle soon after or first.

Finish researching The Wheel, then do Pottery & Writing. Open borders with all (two). If don’t need them yet and have trade established, could give away fish/clam for free, which may make someone much more friendly early.

When finished, use worker from St. Petersburg to connect cities. Possibly build workboat or warrior next in St. Pete’s. If time available, mine a hill. When writing is available, chop forests around St. Petersburg to speed Library. After Moscow expands there will be 4 forests in St. Pete's city area, though only three of them will be needed as it will slowly building it.

Build workboats in Moscow, warriors inserted as needed for happiness or if barbarians march on the scout. Two more workboats for nets (+ another after St. Pete's expands), then two after that to head East/West, hopefully finding lots of civilizations as well as goin’ aroun’ de globe. If time to build more for N/S exploration, that would be nice also, though I think a second worker would be more important.

After Writing, go for Alphabet. If we find at least 6 civilizations by then, I’d suspect we could trade for at least Archery, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Sailing, Mysticism, Polytheism, Meditation, Masonry, and Iron Working. IW may require an Alphabet trade, but it would be well worth it. Normally as I get close to Alphabet, I set it up for no overrun, on first turn go to 0% science as just getting Mysticism, on second turn get Polytheism, then go back to 100% for Literature to build the Great Library and make up for that commerce we lost. Having two workers built and a settler on the way soon after Alphabet would be good.

Turn 0 (4000 BC)

Turn 1 (3970 BC)

Turn 2 (3940 BC)
Moscow founded
Moscow begins: Settler
Research begun: Fishing

Turn 3 (3910 BC)

Turn 4 (3880 BC)

Turn 5 (3850 BC)

Turn 6 (3820 BC)

Turn 7 (3790 BC)

Turn 8 (3760 BC)

Turn 9 (3730 BC)
Moscow's borders expand
Contact made: Chinese Empire

Turn 10 (3700 BC)
Tech learned: Fishing

Turn 11 (3670 BC)
Research begun: Bronze Working
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 12 (3640 BC)

Turn 13 (3610 BC)

Turn 14 (3580 BC)

Turn 15 (3550 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 16 (3520 BC)

Turn 17 (3490 BC)

Turn 18 (3460 BC)
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 19 (3430 BC)

Turn 20 (3400 BC)

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)

Turn 27 (3190 BC)

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Contact made: Greek Empire

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel

Turn 34 (2980 BC)

Turn 35 (2950 BC)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)

Turn 37 (2890 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
St. Petersburg founded
St. Petersburg begins: Worker

Turn 40 (2800 BC)

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/AAbarachAmadan/SOTM3800BCscreenie.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/AAbarachAmadan/SOTM3800BCscreenie2.jpg

:goodjob: Nice start A'AA!! :high5:

I think we need another little project thrown in for the near future and that is settling here:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM03/SO