Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Civilization IV version 1.61, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 1.61. This is currently HOF_Mod-1.61.008 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

I'm here. As I understand correctly, we will use the special adition of HOF-mod and current version will not be allowed?

Checking in :).
I pray really hard for my machine be capable to handle all those AI's in one game :rolleyes: .
I'm available to play most of the time, except some Fridays and Saturdays, nothing crucial, so won't be picky about the roster.

P.S. As I've already said, kinda hate our starting position :D .

Welcome onboard ladies and gentlemen - and we do have ladies with us this time! We're aiming for the fastest diplomatic victory. I'll outline our general strategy along the lines of our planning at CFR:


Early land grab, then build the infrastructure, with emphasis on research capacity
Try to generate as many Great Scientists as possible, because many of the techs on the way to Mass Media are high on the GS lightbulb list (Castes/Pacifism/Philosophical leader/NatEpic)
Early tech priorities are Bronze Working and Alphabet
Exploration by workboat to get contacts and trading partners with Alphabet
Slavery early on, then Caste System for the rest of the game

This is pre-game discussion. Any and all opinions/suggestions are welcome. Any idea you happen to have, no matter how crazy it may seem, please share with the rest of team. Turning crazy ideas into solid plans is how games are won.

We really need to move that scout before deciding on the position to settle the capital. From the screenshot, all the alternative positions look equally good (or should I say equally bad).

We really need to move that scout before deciding on the position to settle the capital. From the screenshot, all the alternative positions look equally good (or should I say equally bad).

I just think that current position is better than any other we can observe now. By the way, where the scout will have to be moved? Looks like there are only forests to the north of visible line. May be moving it E-NE is not the best way. I consider that NW-NE will be better.

I just think that current position is better than any other we can observe now.
I agree. Crappy indeed. :lol:
Looks like it's a water tile NW-N from scout, so I'm not sure, we can see anything interesting from there that we cannot see from the northern hill. I would prefer to move him E and depending on what we find (nothing, I guess :) ) continue to on one of the hills.

:nuke: I'm here.;)

The alternative city sites are:

E,E or E,NE:

Pros: Gains 2 hills, greatly alleviating our production worries; Gains 1 floodplain.
Cons: Loses 1 clams (v.bad) and 1 spices (tolerable).

What would make us choose this option? To compensate for the lost food, the scout must see either a fish, or 2 non-fish food resources in the east.

This condition fulfilled, it will be an ideal city.

N,N:

Pros: Gains 1 or more hills, 1 floodplain.
Cons: Loses 2 clams, 1 spices.

I'd say the scout must see something really great in the north to make us choose this route. Something like 2 hills and 2 food resources. I think this is unlikely compared to the more realistic condition of finding a fish in the east.

I'm for moving the scout E,NW or E,NE as JCricket proposed.

There is no point in moving the capital E-E, gaining one floodplain vs. loosing a clam doesn't make any sense to me. E-NE is the first thing came to my mind as I saw the screenshot, but it's highly unlikely we will find something eatable near the eastern coast and settling on the spot looks like a reasonable option right now. It also leaves two tiles for possible hidden resources, maybe we'll get lucky. :sad:
I do want to mention religion once again. Having several friends will significantly ease the way to our goal. It would be nice to be a founder an enjoy all the benefits of the shrine, but I can live with somebody's else faith, if it spreads to us early enough to build up solid relationships with the rest of it's followers.

Hi. privet vsem! :)

The alternative city sites are:
I'm for moving the scout E,NW or E,NE as JCricket proposed.
+1

But start position, IMHO isn't good for capital. Without base production we can't use completely effect of bureaucracy. In addition, by chopping we can build only some Work boats (1 to Crab, another 2 to exploration) and Settler. After chopping we can accelerate production only by slavery. So, N or N,EE is best places for capital.

My propose for research:
1. Bronze - to chopping and slavery (without both our production is very slow). We even can't mining hills.
2. Fishing - to ASAP Working boat (as I say, 1st working on Crab, 2nd discovering West)
3. Wheel - to connect our Bronze (I hope, that we find it near place for second city) and for Pottery
4. Pottery - to Cottage FP and to granary (for accelerate production by slavery )
5. Writting - Library and GS in capital.
6. Alphabet - to trade science.

In my test games, in this type of map I have 5-6 contacts by Work Boat when I research Alphabet, so I can trade from AI by:
- Agriculture
- Animal Husbandry
- Mysticism
- Meditation
- Polytheism
- Masonry
- Iron Working

But start position, IMHO isn't good for capital. Without base production we can't use completely effect of bureaucracy. In addition, by chopping we can build only some Work boats (1 to Crab, another 2 to exploration) and Settler. After chopping we can accelerate production only by slavery. So, N or N,EE is best places for capital.
NE-E will be only possible if there is a food resource in a fat cross (fish would be nice :eek: ), otherwise it's not an option, of course. And if you ask me, moving N and grabbing that single hill won't make our capital much better either. It still will be ugly. :sad: So Bureaucracy, imho, isn't something worth rushing for, if at all. Academy will have almost the same effect and is achievable much easier.
I believe, we should consider CL slingshot and try to squeeze Priesthood into research order. With all these industrial leaders on the map the Oracle will be built quite early. Since I have absolutely no experience with similar setting, I don't have even a slightest idea when it's gonna happen. I'll try to run some tests later to get us an approximate date (any observations so far?). Except for this one, your research plan looks fine to me.

Im here :)

research - Bronze working -- ok

moves - scout - East-NW

Sity?

Just please do not move scout e-nw. It's a waste, nw-ne is better anyway. The only two alternatives IMHO is nw-ne and e-ne. Since we'll play epic no need to extremely forcing the time of founding the capital. We can easily delay the foundation by 2-3 turns without any critical losses. Let's explore without halfways.

Just for information. There are new HOF mods released, which will be necessary to play. Check up the SGOTM-3 maintenance thread. Vanilla mod is here (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.009.exe). :rolleyes:

Re. the NW,NE scout move... I agree it isn't a big problem to delay settling for 1-2 turns, and of course we're going to explore our island thoroughly. But I'd like to stress that the immediate goal of our exploration is to find the place for our capital. The NW move won't do any good for finding such a place (see my last post for the rationale). We really need that E first move in order to see any possible food resources off the eastern coast. The second move is up to the player, depending on what is revealed.

I can see that blue marble screenshot was replaced by a regular one (thanks for that, I find BM very confusing :blush: ), and now we have a blue circle NE-NE. Can game recommend a spot without any food resources, or the presence of such in it's fat cross is guarantied? If it means we have a food out there we can move settler E-NE to reveal it and scout NW-NE as CB proposed.

That's possible. What I don't like is the fact we can lose 2 turns if we decide to settle in the original spot after all. If the food resource is not good enough (a lone rice or crabs), or is outside the fat cross, or isn't there at all - this is the risk; but what's the reward?

Reward may be quite large. :) Risk - just 2 turns. I think it the same brain risk which you are always stand for. ;) I agree with J's proposal.

I like good risks for good rewards! In this particular case, what is the possible benefit of exploring NW first?

I believe there is sacred purpose behind trying everything reasonable to avoid mineless capital :D , so imho the risk is justified. 2 turns on epic monarch wouldn't make such a difference anyway.

I've generated 10 maps with similar settings, with GH's and all victories enabled, though, and took №9 & №10 for a test drive just to get the feeling.
Both times The Oracle was built relatively late - 800-900BC. It was possible to get CoL for free and even CC if I had slightly more accurate plan. AI's have enough space for 3-4 descent cities each. 6-7 of them are reachable by a WB right away, another 5-6 after opening borders. Therefore Writing has a huge importance for us. Another interesting thing I've noticed, AI's aren't eager to build wonders but units (aggressive indeed :) ). 4-5 archers in every city don't make me happy. But the general attitude towards HP doesn't seem to be seriously affected by their aggressiveness.

The maps are attached, you're very welcome to test them or to generate some new ones and share your thoughts.

So do you think we're more likely to find those hills by exploring NW instead of E-NE? I can't tell for sure before the savegame is released, but the plains NW of the scout appears to be a coastal tile with water to W, NW, and N (and maybe NE too).

So do you think we're more likely to find those hills by exploring NW instead of E-NE?

No, I think the only hills we will gain (if we gain them) are those we can see right now. But in total we will reveal more tiles by scouting with both settler and scout.

the plains NW of the scout appears to be a coastal tile with water to W, NW, and N (and maybe NE too).

W, NW and N are definitely water tiles, I doubt about NE. The hill N of the scout just doesn't look like a coastal one to me. We should postpone scout moving decision until we determine this.

No, I think the only hills we will gain (if we gain them) are those we can see right now. But in total we will reveal more tiles by scouting with both settler and scout.
Revealing the maximum possible number of tiles on T1 is not a purpose in itself. I think we're in agreement that the only likely city locations are in place and E,NE, right? The factor that would tip the scales in favor of the E,NE spot is the availability of seafood near the E coast. This is what we need to know on T1, nothing more, nothing less. Even though it is possible to reveal a greater number of tiles by delaying the city, these wouldn't influence our settling decision.

As for me the best way for scout: E-NE. First of all me need to find good place for capital, so lets scout go NE - our island have more land only on this direction.

I think, that we can move Settler even 5 turns (but onky if scout find some early-luxure resource (Gold/Silvel/Elephants/Gems) on North), and place near start was stay for second city...

Actually when I'm thinking about it once again, moving scout E will not reveal the entire coast, just 2 out of 4 tiles. 2E and SE-E. 2SE and 2SE-S will remain fogged. Moving settler will reveal one additional tile with possible resource.

In think scout moves E-NE - best path

Moved E (http://pbem.civfanatics.ru/sav/img/1stscoutmv0000.JPG). Opened fish and one more calm. Looks like good place for capital, but now in this case we'll lose all initially visible resources. :lol:

I think that now we must stop and think some more.

About turn:
As for me the best place for capital is 2E+1N from start. 1Fish + 1Spice + 2FP + 2Hills.
---
sorry for mistake

I think that now we must stop and think some more.
About turn:
As for me the best place for capital is 2E from start. 1Fish + 1Spice + 2FP + 2Hills.
You mean E-NE. I agree. It was an initial thought and now it looks like an optimum spot. I think we can move settler there already.

E-NE looks like a nice location. One thing I don't like is that it would prevent us from founding a second city in the south, because the distance would be less than 2 tiles. Why don't we move the scout further NE on top of the plains hill, and see if there is any more hills up north. If there's at least 1, settling on the plains hill will give us a good 2-hammer city center with 2 more hills for production, and leave the starting spot open for our next settler.

Good. I've moved scout NE and settler E-NE. Screen (http://pbem.civfanatics.ru/sav/img/CFR-v-4000BC0000.JPG).

Let's discuss and wait for Dynamic to continue this overresourced spot. :rolleyes:

Looks like Pyramids is not impossible as we think earlier. :king:

BTW, I can not upload the save for 4000BC. System say thet I can not upload a new start file. :lol:

Seems it needed to make end of turn and upload save for the beginning of next turn.

Good. I've moved scout NE and settler E-NE. Screen (http://pbem.civfanatics.ru/sav/img/CFR-v-4000BC0000.JPG).

Let's discuss and wait for Dynamic to continue this overresourced spot. :rolleyes:

Looks like Pyramids is not impossible as we think earlier. :king:
Agree.

About next turns:
I hope, that some more resources are on NW and N - we already have high concentrating near start position and usually concentrating of resources change smoothly non-in discrete. So I propose to scout some more to find the best place for capital (no more than 3-4 turns) and planned place for second city.

Don't we have stone as well? "I be dam'd!" (Though marble would've been completely uber.) This changes things and we're going to have to rethink them from the beginning. How very convenient that we've got time while Dynamic is out of town.

While we're at it, here's the batting order for team CFR-V:
Dynamic
Witan
JCricket
kaiser
Balbes
Cat Behemoth
Bair
Unikum

Well, we have a strong production capital (and if there's metal in one of these hills...), and something very close to a super GP farm in the 2nd city. That much is clear. Research order and build order will have to be replanned from the ground up. Our priority is getting a settler out ASAP.

Btw good scouting CB! :)

If the island proceeds, I would set Settler on N. Then, We have - Stones, a hill, Clam, a wood.:lol: We lose - spices, FP.:( I find it is more. If the island comes to an end, on a place. 2 city to put too a place it is necessary. But on N much more favourable. It is necessary to move a scout. I think N-NE.;)

Of course IMHO it's a must to move the scout first. But it's difficult to say what he have to found to prevent us from building capital 1 tile north from current settler location. :crazyeye:

If there there will be a gold or silver?:lol:

But it's difficult to say what he have to found to prevent us from building capital 1 tile north from current settler location. :crazyeye:
Well, the fact that we have found a better location.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/SGOTM3-CFRV-dotmap4000bc.jpg

Bureaucracy doesn't multiply food they way it does with hammers and commerce. This was the reason our initial location wasn't a very good capital - food rich but production poor. Now that we've got a site (Red) with hills, a quarry, and enough food to work them all, it's going to be a very effective production-specialized capital. We can build the Oracle/Pyramids/Heroic Epic there.

The original location (Yellow) is good for a food-specialized city. With some farms and a lighthouse, it can run +18 food after Calendar, not quite a Madrid but pretty close. With the Great Library and Nat.Epic, it's a natural-born GP farm.

Red is a plains hill, and that extra hammer makes a big difference in the early game for our worker/settler/workboat production.

Yellow gets as many food resources as possible, including all the 3 spices.

Red gets border expansion from the palace, and Yellow from a library. A library is needed in a GP farm city, and is a wasted build in a production city. (If we'd done it the other way around, we'd need a useless building in the 2nd city just for border expansion (Obelisk/Library))

Red as the 1st city covers all the hills so our worker with Mining is immediately useful.

The plan is Gud. Here only, the hill is lost. Besides 2 city will be grinded under GP. And the territory is not necessary to it. We lose the river. And still the place for 3 cities would will be necessary to us, and considering a card of a place on starting island should be a little.

I agree with this plan of sity location only if we don't find anything interesting (like gems/gold/silver) in N and NW. To do this we need 1 or 2 turn:

1st: Scoun NW to hill. And than we can see more (or may be full) nothern territory.

Since we are going (?) to use much of great people it seems that you found the best solution. I like this plan. I hope that low level of commerce will not be critical.

I think place for capital - need next turn, after moves scout.

1st: Scoun NW to hill. And than we can see more (or may be full) nothern territory.

In any case I think N-NW is at least not worse. It's obviously that we'll see the same is from NW hill but there is a chance to see some more and may be fasten a bit our exploration. So, this move may be not better, but may be better and it's exactly not worse.

In any case I think N-NW is at least not worse. It's obviously that we'll see the same is from NW hill but there is a chance to see some more and may be fasten a bit our exploration. So, this move may be not better, but may be better and it's exactly not worse.
True. I also think N-NW is slightly better than NW. Not much thought.
If there's nothing really tempting, I say we should stick to Balbes' plan and settle on the plain hill. But we still have 2 more turns of exploration, so anything can happen. :crazyeye:

OK, I just played:
3970BC - Scout NW, see Gems but it's not usefull before IW. Settler N,NE.
3940BC - Scout E,NW, see Fish. Found Moscow on Plain Hill, start Settler, citizen on Stone. Researching Fishing.
We have only sea's resources so we don't need Worker or argri-techs.
3910BC - Scout NE. O, Rice... but under Jungle...
3880BC - Scout NE, see other Fish.
3850BC - Scout NW,NW, see Cow and other Gems. It looks like our land isn't too bad. :)
3820BC - Scout N,NW, Fish again.
3790BC - Scout SW, double Gems... and Jungles... it's system...
3760BC - Scout SW.
3730BC - Scout SW, see Panther.
3700BC - Scout SW, Moscow borders expand, Forest grown. :)
3670BC - Scout kills Panther during defence, go W,SW. Met Mao (Archer appeared on the other Island SE from Moscow). Learn Fishing, start Bronze Working. Switch production to Work Boat.
3640BC - Scout are healing.
3610BC - Buddism has been founded...
3580BC
3550BC
3520BC
3490BC - Scout NE,SE.
3460BC - Scout SE, see Lion.
3430BC - Scout kills Panther during defence, go SE, choose Jungle promotion.
3400BC - Met Alexander Scout on the same place as Mao. Scout S,SW. Our land looks like horseshoe. :)
3370BC - Scout W.
3340BC - Met Victoria's Archer on the coast of SW island. Scout are healing.
3310BC - Produced Workboat - go to Fish, continue Settler.
3280BC - Fishing Boats created, switch citizen.
3250BC
3220BC - Scout NE,N.
3190BC - Scout NW, see Panther.
3160BC - Scout kills Panther during defence, healing.
3130BC - Forest grows again...
3100BC
3070BC
3040BC
3010BC - Learn Bronze (soutce on SW), start Wheels.
2980BC - Mao adopts Slavery.
2950BC - Hinduism has been founded.
2920BC - Scout NW.
2890BC - Scout W.
2860BC - Settler created, go to SW,SW, start Warrior. Scout fortified. Revolution begins.
2830BC - Adopt Slavery. St.Petersburg founded, start Workboat.
2800BC - Nothing, turn 40.

Later we will wait for Moscow grows to size 2, set 2-d citizen on Forest 2f1h. After Warrior start Workboat and switch citizen to 1f2h. In 2500BC St.Petersburg will grow to 2 and Moscow will be 1 turn before growth to 3. At this moment we need Pop-ruch Workboats in both cities (we will win 2 foods in Moscow by this way).
After Wheel start Pottery, then, may be, Writing.

Our land is big enough and contains many Gems, so we will have food science, but not in Capital... so, may be we don't need Bureaucracy...

If we don't need Bureaucracy than we have to build Pyramids. As I see resources placed very suitable for cities. And it looks like the place for the capital was chosen as the best one.

Just a quick look - may be to train a settler after second boat in capital then Pyramids or Oracle?

Dynamic, great turns! :) As usually :)

Well, as I think, we have some good places in this map, so by help 3d city we connect gems. But this new information about map no change my goal: Writting and Alphabet.

But now, I'm not sure about Oracle. If some Industrial nation have Stone or good production base, than we need to plan Oracle from now. I propose consider nextt science plan:

Polytheism (as way for Literacy)
Priesthood - Oracle
Pottery ? - for some Cottages on FP and Granary (pop-rush). may be skiped.
Writting - Lib and Open Border
Alphabet - for tech trade.

Hm... What now we can do with scout? Start Island was discovered, and it can be used for oher lands. But we need Galey. I don't like do reseach Sailing myself, so:
- let it stay near Islands. may be new cities border allow us contact with new AI
- let it stay on north from capital for view barbarian
- go home and sleep for futher or destroy it.

Polytheism (as way for Literacy)
Priesthood - Oracle
Pottery ? - for some Cottages on FP and Granary (pop-rush). may be skiped.
Writting - Lib and Open Border
Alphabet - for tech trade.

What about Masonry? We'll not build Pyramids? In my case Pyramids have higher priority than Oracle.

- go home and sleep for futher or destroy it.

Uh... We have such expensive army that must destroy part of it? :eek:

Uh... We have such expensive army that must destroy part of it? :eek:

You should have said "all of it"! :lol:
Lets leave him on the western peninsula for fog busting. We don't want barbs' cities in awkward places, we cannot raze them.
I also think Pyramids have higher priority than Oracle and they require only one "optional" tech instead of three. So if I have to make a choice - definitely Pyramids. Although you may call me an incorrigible optimist, but it looks to me, we have fair chances to build them both.

Well, I draw test-map relevant in 2800BC. So lets go test!

I agree, that Pyramids is more important for us than Oracle, but usually Oracle was build eirly than Pyramids.

Dynamic
5.12.2006 0:25

I've played 40 turns, ending in 2800BC. I know it's kind of a long session, but I was reluctant to stop before reaching a significant milestone (T39).

We have 2 cities now. We've finished Fishing and Bronze Working, and are researching The Wheel as a prerequisite for Pottery. We've revolted to Slavery. 3 contacts made. All the early religions are taken already. See CFC for more detail. All right, let's get down to the discussion of our plans. I more or less clear on the next turnset, but less so on the overall strategy.

Balbes
5.12.2006 11:31

For our overall strategy we've got three options, nearly mutually exclusive:

-Settling our island peacefully will get us a OK science rate. We'd better be fast or the AIs will land their settlers and build cities in crappy locations. We'd need a bunch of workers, 8 as a minimum, to clear the jungle. Tying down the entire production capacity of our two cities for a long time, this is a weak point of this plan.

-Concentrating on wonders: The Oracle for Metal Casting, plus the Pyramids. This stifles our expansion, and several techs that we could otherwise get in trades with Alphabet will have to be researched the hard way.

-Concentrating on the army to take our neighbors out early on. This diverts our entire hammer production to troops, leaving nothing for wonders.

Can we hear everybody's opinion on whether it's feasible to build both the Oracle and the Pyramids? Your plan if it's a "yes", and your rationale if it's a "no". Please do take a more active part in the discussion.

Unikum
5.12.2006 12:12

With so many AIs as there are, Alphabet is a good thing to have. Though not all of the AIs will be willing to trade. The Pyramids - building em if you have stone is a no-brainer.

Balbes
5.12.2006 12:14

I'm pretty sure we're going for the Pyramids. I'd like to hear more opinions re. the Oracle.

Witan
5.12.2006 12:51

I think Oracle is a gamble with this kind of a map, and not a good gamble too. With 17 nations, it's very likely that an industrious leader has stone, or at the very least strong hammer output.

Anyway I'd like to go with early exploration, contact making, and the Alphabet. Though it's now evident that our land is better than it seemed at the beginning, the map itself hasn't changed. I think we should be able to trade with the AIs for lots more beakers than we'd get as the free tech from the Oracle.

I couldn't take a look at the save yet so the above is just a speculation however :)

Balbes
5.12.2006 13:52

I think we should be able to trade with the AIs for lots more beakers than we'd get as the free tech from the Oracle.
Our goal is bothtrading for a profit and grabbing the Oracle tech

Witan
5.12.2006 16:07

Ok I've DLed the save, will think/plan in the evening. I'm going to play tomorrow night (19-20 MSK). And, the Oracle and early Alphabet hardly go together well. Or do we take Alpha as the Orfacle tech?

Witan
5.12.2006 19:43

On a second thought I'm not rushing ahead with the turnset. Detailed analysis has raised a number of little questions, (in addition to those in my last post). I think i'll draw a test map to iron out our tactics

Dynamic
5.12.2006 19:50

Yes, we do need a test map very much!
Also let me reiterate that you cannot ever play/replay the real save for testing purposes! regardless of whether it is your turn ir not.
That gets a team kicked out of the competition with extreme prejudice.

Balbes
5.12.2006 20:26

No, the Oracle tech must be Metal Casting. Why so? It'll allow us to build a quick forge in our Oracle+Pyramids city (the capital most likely), and hire an engineer. The 2nd or 3rd great person will be born in that city. If he's an engineer (the better GP for us) - we'll rush the Great Lib, otherwise if he's a Prophet we can lightbulb Philosophy.

Behemoth the Cat
6.12.2006 0:25

For our overall strategy we've got three options, nearly mutually exclusive:

-Settling our island peacefully will get us a OK science rate. We'd better be fast or the AIs will land their settlers and build cities in crappy locations. We'd need a bunch of workers, 8 as a minimum, to clear the jungle. Tying down the entire production capacity of our two cities for a long time, this is a weak point of this plan.

-Concentrating on wonders: The Oracle for Metal Casting, plus the Pyramids. This stifles our expansion, and several techs that we could otherwise get in trades with Alphabet will have to be researched the hard way.

-Concentrating on the army to take our neighbors out early on. This diverts our entire hammer production to troops, leaving nothing for wonders.

Can we hear everybody's opinion on whether it's feasible to build both the Oracle and the Pyramids? Your plan if it's a "yes", and your rationale if it's a "no". Please do take a more active part in the discussion.

I prefer option #1. The Oracle and the Pyramids is a possibility, but it's risky, and may land us very quickly into a situation with no options but #3. So we would be forced to mix them together in any case. As for #3 we're in no big hurry for that. We've got a super UU (unlike that in Warlords), and when the time comes it'll be great for carving up those enemy empires we haven't carved up earlier.

Mixing #1 and #2 would be nice. I believe St.Petersburg is quite capable of pumping out a number of settlers and workers. If we charge it wil this single responsibility (and barbarians aren't a threat for St.Pete), while Moscow chops the Oracle first, and then the Pyramins (we can research Masonry in about the same time it takes us to build the Oracle)...:mischief: Hard to tell if we have enough time. There's quite a lot of forest I think. But if we're going for the Oracle we must start directly and work hard.

PS. Another idea... Maybe we can do it the other way round? The Pyramids first and then the Oracle. This pretty much guarantees us the Pyramids. The Oracle will have to wait and see. Well, if we do this, Masonry is the immediate priority. Maybe it's even worth it interrupting our research on the Wheel. This also makes the Great Engineer more probable, for the GLib.

PPS. But we don't have any workers yet...

Bair
6.12.2006 7:32

i'm opposed to building the oracle - not worth it, with so many neighbors trading is best, i.e. i'm for EARLY alphabet.
pyramids - we need them of course, esp.seeing it that we have stone...

Balbes
5.12.2006 8:57

For the last hour I've been mulling over the Oracle. I've been trying to fit it into our schedule, this way and that way, but couldn't stick it in anywhere. Whatever we do, we rather want to advance along the topmost branch (Alphabet-Currency-Literature-Philosophy) or even the bottom branch (to Iron Working).

Going with the religious branch, we'd have to invest in 3 techs which otherwise we wouldve been guaranteed to get in trades: Mysticism, Meditation and Priesthood. Their combined worth is ~500 beakers. The Oracle gets us 1000 beakers in the form of Metal Casting, but takes 225 hammers to build. Somehow I get the feeling that four Swordsmen will be far more useful.

So, this is how I see it: we research up to the Alphabet via Pottery. Meanwhile our cities erect Granaries. With Writing, we build a library and launch off the circumnavigating workboats. After Alphabet, we try to trade for Masonry. If we can get it - OK begin the Pyramids. If not, research it ourselves, and again the Pyramids as well. If the Oracle is still available after we finish the Pyramids, we can try for it.

Now is a very important point in the game. The next 50 turns will probably determine the winner.

Behemoth the Cat
6.12.2006 9:00

So, this is how I see it: we research up to the Alphabet via Pottery. Meanwhile our cities erect Granaries. With Writing, we build a library and launch off the circumnavigating workboats. After Alphabet, we try to trade for Masonry. If we can get it - OK begin the Pyramids. If not, research it ourselves, and again the Pyramids as well. If the Oracle is still available after we finish the Pyramids, we can try for it.


I think we should research it ourselves. To start the Pyramids build after Alphabet is way too late. Too many civs. Someone is certain to grab them before long.

Balbes
6.12.2006 9:06

"To begin" wasn't the right word to use. We're so rich in forests, we can actually finish the mids in 1-2 turns.

Behemoth the Cat
6.12.2006 9:17

Are you so sure they won't build them before we even get Alphabet? What was the ETA on Alpha? By 1100-1150BC it's really getting shaky.

PS. And that 1-2 turns claim of course isn't realistic :)

Dynamic
6.12.2006 9:23

We need The Wheel to connect stone anyway.
All right. When Witan's map is done, we're going to start testing several scenarios. Knowing the availabilty dates for the technologies we need will make it much easier to plan. And the management of our cities depends on it as well.

Kaizer
6.12.2006 13:27

I'm keeping silent as I can't discuss anything without having seen a screenshot, so um, waiting for the test map.

Witan
6.12.2006 14:13

I'm half finished: here is the complete map (our island only o/c :)). But the units/cities are in their 4000BC state. Please will somebody check the map against the savegame. I hope I'll have time today to recreate the moves Dynamic played. (creating the cities in Worldbuilder isn't quite the right way of doing it. For example Worldbuilder cannot simulate the fact the warrior under construction has 2 hammers invested...)

(save attached)

Dynamic
6.12.2006 21:31

I've used Witan's map for a quick test of the scenario when we "rush" for Alphabet. 1030BC... I was able to trade for almost every tech: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Sailing, Masonry, Iron Working, Mysticism, Polytheism... Mathematics is due in a few turns. Unfortunately Confucianism is already founded. Stonehenge is built and so is the Oracle (Metal Casting). Have contacts with 2/3 of the AIs, but none of tech leaders. The Pyramids go to one of the AIs in <30 turns... To sum it up, it's science efficient but wonder poor. Now, other scenarios should be checked, particularly the "Masonry before Alphabet", as we can postpone the 3rd city - not much use out of it until Alphabet. This risks losing the copper however...
We have 3 cities (5,3,1), a GS in 3 turns, 2 granaries, and 2 libraries.

Unikum
7.12.2006 1:51

I've tested the Wonders scenario. The Pyramids and Oracle are ours by 1000BC. But the cities are empty. I think we should forego the Oracle, and move the Pyramids in front of Alphabet. Agreed re the 3rd city. Am going to test
the no-Oracle scen now.

Unikum
7.12.2006 3:30

The no-Oracle test is in. 925BC we have 2 cities (4 and 3), 2 libs, 1 scouting wb, 2 workers, 1 turn till Pyramids, 1 turn till Alphabet. 1 GS born.

Dynamic
7.12.2006 9:21

The no-Oracle test is in. 925BC we have 2 cities (4 and 3), 2 libs, 1 scouting wb, 2 workers, 1 turn till Pyramids, 1 turn till Alphabet. 1 GS born.

No Granaries then... but this isn't too bad - if we can get the Pyramids in 900BC, this likely guarantees we get them. How much forest is left?

A quick idea without testing: St.Petersburg won't be able to function as a GP farm - takes too long to build GLib and NatEpic - and all or almost all forests chopped already. So it can produce 1-2 GS but Moscow is going to pull ahead after that.

Dynamic
7.12.2006 9:58

Team 5th Element looks like they have founded a religion... Judaism probably...
And our guys seem to have had a religion spread to them, indeed... could be an Obelisk in the second city to...

Balbes
7.12.2006 14:29

A quick idea without testing: St.Petersburg won't be able to function as a GP farm - takes too long to build GLib and NatEpic - and all or almost all forests chopped already.
We're supposed to use a great engineer for the GLib, and the NatEpic isn't very expensive nor is it very urgent - we can simply build it at the pace the city is capable of, especially given that there won't be any other projects there after the granary and library are in place; or we can speed it up with overflow from whipping workers and settlers.
Moscow is going to pull ahead after that.
And just how is it going to pull ahead with only the fish and crabs for food resources?

Balbes
7.12.2006 14:54

A quick idea without testing: St.Petersburg won't be able to function as a GP farm - takes too long to build GLib and NatEpic - and all or almost all forests chopped already.
We're supposed to use a great engineer for the GLib, and the NatEpic isn't very expensive nor is it very urgent - we can simply build it at the pace the city is capable of, especially given that there won't be any other projects there after the granary and library are in place; or we can speed it up with overflow from whipping workers and settlers.
Moscow is going to pull ahead after that.
And just how is it going to pull ahead with only the fish and crabs for food resources?

Moscow gets all the Wonders. St.Peters isn't richer in food. A Great Engineer arrives very late, too late for the GLib.

Balbes
7.12.2006 15:05

Here's our food situation (assuming the various bonuses like the lighthouse and Calendar are already in place)

Moscow: 2 + fish(4) + clams(3) = +9 food, and only that much if we aren't working the 3 mines and the quarry (-4 food). And if we aren't, what's the point of the city of Moscow? Hammers were the point I believe.

St.Petersburg: 2 + fish(4) + clams(3)*2 + spices(1)*3 + farmed floodplain(2) = +13 food, from just the bonus tiles. We can build more farms later if our happiness limit allows.

Witan
7.12.2006 15:42

Couldn't play any tests... Very hard pressed for time.

Still, after a few tries I could recreate Dynamic's turnset on the test map. Contacts are added as well. Hinduism was founded as early as 3550BC, however.

(save attached)

Unikum
7.12.2006 19:32

The no-Oracle test is in. 925BC we have 2 cities (4 and 3), 2 libs, 1 scouting wb, 2 workers, 1 turn till Pyramids, 1 turn till Alphabet. 1 GS born.

No Granaries then... but this isn't too bad - if we can get the Pyramids in 900BC, this likely guarantees we get them. How much forest is left?
Granaries are unnecessary early on with such a food-rich start. I chopped the forest hills (and built mines), and one newly-grown forest outside Moscow city limits, and I think there was one more, the one that can be shared between St.Petes and Moscow. Pretty much as many as I could chop with the 2 workers. I connected the cities right away. All in all, 2 or 3 forests still remain near Moscow.

Moscow gets all the Wonders. St.Peters isn't richer in food. A Great Engineer arrives very late, too late for the GLib.
In St.Petersburg all the forests are still there. I only used the whip. There should be enough for the GLib. An engineer is not an option. Too late.

Balbes
7.12.2006 20:36

If so many forests are remaining, there may have been some suboptimal decisions. I'll be testing this this night. I'll try to synchronize the Pyramids to the moment we assign two scientists in St.Petersburg.

Unikum
7.12.2006 20:36

If so many forests are remaining, there may have been some suboptimal decisions. I'll be testing this this night. I'll try to synchronize the Pyramids to the moment we assign two scientists in St.Petersburg.
I've saved the forests for the GLib. Besides, without any forests, production is really pitiful in St.Petes. And the 2 scientists are already there. You may have missed my mention of a GS already born.

Balbes
7.12.2006 20:49

I mean assigning the 2 scientists earlier than the Pyramids are finished may well be suboptimal. Synchronizing them is better (so far this is only a hunch though).

Unikum
7.12.2006 20:56

At the moment we can remove the scientists again and begin a settler there, for the copper, and we need a galley too. It's a long long wait for the Great Engineer anyway. 300GPP needed.

Balbes
7.12.2006 21:11

Let me elaborate. As I've said the plan is based just on my intuition. We should be regard the scientists in the terms of man-hours, or in this case scientist-turns. 2 scientists producing 3 beakers each for 30 turns, then 2 scientists times 6 beakers each (with the Pyramids) for 30 turns, equals 0 scientists for 15 turns then 2 scientists times 6 beakers for 45 turns. This means we can free up the two citizens for the first 15 turns, and produce something, if it helps us with a faster Pyramids. That something might be a worker. So we break even in beakers but net us an additional worker. We may even get more beakers if those 15 first turns are used efficiently.

Re the forests preserved for the Great Library: hammer production in St.Petersburg is approximately zero, so we have to use either forests or a great engineer to build it. GLib without marble is an "expensive" wonder. 525 hammers. That's 17 forests, and if we don't have that much we can't even settle for 15 or something, because the remaining 60 hammers will take ages. So I'd better think about ways of getting a great engineer, so long as we're not planning for the Oracle anymore.

Dynamic
7.12.2006 21:36

An early GS means an early Academy, and that is 6 beakers per turn minimum.

Unikum
7.12.2006 21:41

In this scenario we don't want an early GS, going for an early GE instead. We can finish The Pyramids even earlier then. However Alphabet will be delayed. I'll test this option today (Early Pyramids for the GE).

Dynamic
7.12.2006 21:45

A purebred engineer arrives very late. 38 turns, if we can't get a forge earlier...

Unikum, could you post your log or what have you?

Balbes
7.12.2006 22:53

I've done some calculations, and an early academy is splendid indeed. A rough estimate tells me that GS-first is more efficient with regards to beakers than GE-first, if this condition is true: the city cannot build the GLib faster than 55 turns. That is exactly the situation we have here. But frankly I don't see a way for us to build the GLib other than with the engineer. Maybe we should consider whether we want the GLib at all.

Dynamic
7.12.2006 22:53

Yes, St.Petes can max out at 6 scientists at city size 12, or even more with irrigation, but this is nowhere in the near future. First of all it needs time to grow, and there's also the happiness problem - we only have 8 without resource trading, or 9 if somehow a forge magically appears there. So, resource trading, or Hereditary Rule maybe. But why don't we use both cities? St.Petes will leverage its specialists, and Moscow its wonders. In Moscow we can run 2 specialists + 2 from the GLib + Pyramids + NatEpic. Well NatEpic can also be assigned to St.Petes, Moscow gets the Heroic then. If we choose our wonders carefully, GPs and GEs will be born. Let's hope for no Artists "thanks" to the Epics... But the GLib will be built much earlier and that is important.

Balbes
7.12.2006 23:13

I do see something in it. Indeed, our Philosophical trait combined with Pacifism do much to negate the ultimate role of the epic. For us, the combined number of specialists in the nation is more important than sticking as many of them as possible into a GP farm city with the eipc. We can go as far as to use three cities, our fish-rice-cows city will have OK food. The thing to watch out for is synchronizing the GPP production so that all of the cities will give birth to a great person close to the end of the game. If a large but still-not-enough GP point pool accumulates somewhere, that's bad.

Unikum
7.12.2006 23:56

The "Early Pyramids" test done. GE due in 17 turns. Log of "Early GS" test to be posted later.

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Moscow begins: Worker
...skip...
Turn 88 (1360 BC)
Moscow finishes: The Pyramids
Turn 89 (1330 BC)
Moscow begins: Library
Turn 91 (1270 BC)
Moscow grows: 6
Turn 92 (1240 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 3
Turn 98 (1060 BC)
Moscow finishes: Library
Moscow begins: Settler
Turn 100 (1000 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 4
Turn 101 (985 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Library
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior
Turn 102 (970 BC)
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat
Turn 104 (940 BC)
Moscow finishes: Settler
Moscow begins: Granary
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat
Turn 105 (925 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Granary
Turn 107 (895 BC)
Moscow grows: 6
Moscow finishes: Granary
Turn 108 (880 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker
St. Petersburg grows: 2
Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Warrior
Turn 109 (865 BC)
Tech learned: Alphabet
St. Petersburg's borders expand

Balbes
8.12.2006 0:11

The thing to watch out for is synchronizing the GPP production so that all of the cities will give birth to a great person close to the end of the game. If a large but still-not-enough GP point pool accumulates somewhere, that's bad.
Having given it a little more consideration... What exactly is the downside of poor synchronization? We'd miss out on 1 GS - almost ready to be born but not yet. However, we'd have 1 GS more to begin with, because our first great people would've been GS,GS instead of GE,GS. So even the worst case simply means breaking even! I'm beginning to think this scenario is just strictly better.

Unikum
8.12.2006 0:17

Summary: everything generally delayed, but a GE is guaranteed for time when we can build the GLib. I didn't go easy on the forests though. None remain near Moscow, the price to be paid for the Pyramids, buildings, and the settler. Same in St.Petes. Granary ready there in 1 turn. Additionally in 5 turns we settle the copper city. I thought it natural for the settler to head there directly. Moscow is size 6, St.Petes size 2, Novgorod at the copper in 5 turns. Moscow is working one cottage, though we can scratch that if we're going for Representation. That will speed things up by 2-3 turns then. I'll play through the early-GS scenario once more and post the log.

Unikum
8.12.2006 2:35

The test is in, here is the log. Somehow building the road slipped my mind. I've played so many of these tests, I thought the road was there already. Only after clearing away all the forest did I realize it wasn't. I built Granaries both in St.Petes and Moscow this time (ready in 2 turns). Add ~1 turn for the road.

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
...skip...
Turn 105 (925 BC)
Tech learned: Alphabet
Moscow finishes: The Pyramids

My MM may have been just a little sloppy but hey this isn't a reload-allowed grand prix.

Behemoth the Cat
8.12.2006 6:40

Turn 88 (1360 BC)
Moscow finishes: The Pyramids
Doesn't this give us a very real & easy shot at the Oracle, too? :yumyum: ???Maybe we can try for it after all? We do run a risk of getting a prophet, but Balbes found a use for him IIRC. And if we get an engineer, we'll get him pretty early for all the nice stuff.

Dynamic
8.12.2006 10:46

Interesting. Much food for thought... I haven't examined the saves yet, so a quick question - where's the Moscow warrior?

Dynamic
8.12.2006 18:02

The last of Unikum's logs is the best option, or so I'm convinced. We should let Unikum play and carry out his plan. Also, a better detailed description of the micromanagement would be in order. Worker moves and stuff... I'm not entirely clear on what the first worker does. The road is pretty high on the list as it gives +2 us per turn for the trade route.

Witan
8.12.2006 18:07

I think we should let the Oracle go. The Lighthouse and Colossus are both much higher priorities.

Dynamic
8.12.2006 18:24

The AIs were snatching the L'house in the tests

No objections to Unikum playing?

Balbes
8.12.2006 18:29

We don't want the Oracle - everybody's in agreement on this I believe. If we're going with the multiple farms plan, the Oracle's more trouble than benefit. One Great Prophet is still acceptable but a string of Great Prophets... The Lighthouse: yes, we want it very much. In the copper city likely. The Colossus: don't want. We aren't financial, and Astronomy is just around the corner.

I say Unikum plays. Fewer than 60 turns, of course :)

Behemoth the Cat
8.12.2006 18:43

Drat. Guessed wrong again :sad:

Hmmm, by the waayyy... Shouldn't we be posting something at CFC too? :rolleyes:

I say Unikum plays. Fewer than 60 turns, of course :)

Why not? The footballguys' first session was like 100 turns or something :lol: Though it may be all the parts of their graph happen to have the same incline.

Balbes
8.12.2006 18:48

Yes we should, but with our teammates' English as poor as it is... I'd take a lively discussion here over a silence at CFC.

I say Unikum plays. Less than 60 turns, of course :)

Why not? The footballguys' first session was like 100 turns or something :lol: Though it may be all the parts of their graph happen to have the same incline.

Yeah, their savegame dates tell just that story. But it's a poor practice. It's important for the team to be able to review, criticize and adjust the strategy.

JCricket
8.12.2006 18:54

Yes we should, but with our teammates' English as poor as it is... I'd take a lively discussion here over a silence at CFC.

Sorry but we have no say in the matter. We took on certain responsibilities when we agreed to the rules of the tournament. And our primary responsibility is to discuss everything related to our game somewhere accessible to the organizers and the other participants.

Unikum
8.12.2006 21:15

I can't, a problem is preventing me from playing. As for discussing things in English, that is fine. Must we also post the logs?

Balbes
8.12.2006 21:34

Something has been eluding my attention: what are we going to do about the settler for the copper city?

Behemoth the Cat
8.12.2006 21:36

I can't, a problem is preventing me from playing. As for discussing things in English, that is fine. Must we also post the logs?

We'll we aren't required to reproduce every bit. Though the results of our testing should get a quick coverage at CFC. Also suggestions conclusions ets to go with them.

Why do you say you cannot play?

Dynamic
8.12.2006 23:22

Unikum is playing now, problem solved.

I played::nuke:
Moscow begins: Work Boat
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat
Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Moscow grows: 2
Scout defeats (0.68/1): Barbarian Panther
Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel
Turn 45 (2650 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
Turn 46 (2620 BC)
Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Turn 49 (2530 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 2
Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Moscow grows: 2
Moscow finishes: Work Boat
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat
Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior
Turn 52 (2440 BC)
Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Turn 54 (2380 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery
Turn 55 (2350 BC)
Research begun: Writing
Turn 56 (2320 BC)
Turn 57 (2290 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land
Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker
St. Petersburg grows: 2
Turn 59 (2230 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior
Turn 60 (2200 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior
Turn 61 (2170 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Granary
Turn 62 (2140 BC)
Turn 63 (2110 BC)
Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Turn 65 (2050 BC)

Road between cities, Moscow-2, St. Petersburg-1. We have on the Warrior in both cities. The scout faces to Moscow, strengthened in jungle. The first echelon of defense.:lol: We have 3 established boats. The Worker, the second Worker through 3 Turn. It was possible to accelerate it slavery, but I think it is necessary to leave its (slavery) on Library. It was originally planned to play till a birth of the second Worker, but there was a question what to do by the first Worker. And so 20 Turn already it there are more was played here and has decided to consult better.
To be continued:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgot...1.Civ4SavedGame (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/CFR_V_SG003_BC2050_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Fine, it looks like I made the wrong selection in Moscow...
In any case we have good developnent.
We have Trade ability with Mao - we need to check it periodically for luxury trading...

Just checked the save. May be it worth to make an unfogging by warriors. Since we'll can't raze cities it will be a lottery to leave territory under barbs control. On the other side - the territory is very unsuitable for unfogging. So the Moscow's borders will expand in 13 turns (or even faster if we'll rush Library earlier) - may be the reason to move the scout 1 tile NW already now?

What will be the next research? I think it will be better to teach Masonry now and than the Alphabet after it.

I'm back. Several civless days are too much for me :).
I'm very much for fog-busting guardians in western part of the island. We'll pay a higher price for barbarians' poor cities than for settlers. If we can avoid such sort of risks, let's do it.
I think we need another productive city ASAP. St. Petersburg can spam settlers and workers after pop-rushing the library.
I'm still not convinced that skipping Oracle is a good idea. We have a philosophical leader and engineer specialist from the forge plus Pyramids' GPP could guarantee us the GL in Peter... Maybe we should consider the Parthenon. It's very expensive without marble resource though.
Masonry and Alphabet are next, imho.

Petersburg can't produce Workers and Settlers nearest times because of 2 citizens as Scientists. And in the future Peter can't make GL because of lack of production. Oracle is out of our mainstream and we can't cach it. Now we must concentrate on Pyramids. We don't need more cities for now - no good places before IW. Potential problem - barbs cities. But we can't build many Warriors - we slow down our development. But - we must do it - we will build 1 or 2 in Moscow after Library.

St.Petersburg don't need Warrior because it will not be size 4 for a long time. So we can use it for fog gazing.

P.S. Sorry, I make mistake... Pop rushing decrease this limit...

In game on a test card barbarians do not build cities. I think it is necessary after pyramids builds soldiers. And 3 city too. The scout can be set already. In test game in 30 % it was killed by barbarians.

What will be the next research? I think it will be better to teach Masonry now and than the Alphabet after it.
+1 :nuke:
I agree.

Yes, Alpha after Masonry. SPb built Granary then Library, then Work Boat for contacts. Moscow built Library, Warrior, Work Boat for contacts, then Pyramids (850BC). Next - several cities start with Bronze, because losing it will be very serious problem. If we force Alpha and Great Scientist we can get it in 985BC and 970BC respectively. Other way we can delay it but produce Work Boat earlier.
Now Worker should build Cottage on FP, then chop Forest for SPb Library, then chop for Moscow. Next Worker should chop for Moscow then build Road and Quarry, then build Mines.

Dynamic
Unikum - just played
Witan - up
JCricket
Kaizer
Balbes
Кот Бегемот
Bair

The discussion log for the 2800-2050BC session is now up (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4856805&postcount=56)

Excellent!

Well, this is my opinion for next session:
2020BC - Worker starts Cottage on FP.
1990BC - SPb grows to 2, set second citizen on FP.
1960BC - Poprush Granary in SPb, Science 100%.
1930BC - Writing, start Masonry. SPb built Granary, start Library. Moscow built Worker, start Library. Worker2 2N.
1900BC - Worker2 are chopping.
1900BC
1870BC
1840BC
1810BC - Worker1 built Cottage.
1780BC - Moscow grows to 3, set citizen on 2f1h Forest(2N1W). Worker1 NW on Forest. Worker2 chop Forest.
1750BC - SPb grows to 2, set second citizen on FP. Worker2 S, start road on Stone.
1720BC
1690BC - Masonry, start Alphabet. Worker2 completes the Road on Stone.
1660BC - Moscow borders expand, Worker2 start Quarry.
1630BC - Moscow grows to 4, poprush Library, set second citizen on Crabs! SPb grows to 3, ubhappy citizen for 1 turn. Worker1 chop Forest.
1600BC - Moscow built Library, start Workboat. SPb 3-d citizen on 2f1h Forest. Worker 1 NE,SE.
1570BC - Worker1 start chopping.
1540BC
1510BC - SPb grows to 4, poprush Library.
1480BC - SPb built Library. Moscow grows to 3. Lets decide about forcing GS.
+30 hammers will be added to Moscow next turn. Warrior or Workboat on next turn.

As Unikum detected, we got 22 gold from Warrior overflow during pop-rush. It's new feature of HOF-mod, very interesting...
So we can set 100% science for a longer time.
After 1480BC we can boost GS in SPb and got it in 970BC. For this purpose we need to set 1 Scientist for 10 turns in SPb, other citizen will work on Cottage. after 10 turns we will replace citizen from Cottage to Crabs and, after growth on the next turn to 3, set second Scientist. We need to delay growth of SPb for prevent unhappy citizen.
Workers build mines and chop Forests near Moscow. After Workboat (send East) Moscow build Warrior for fog gazing (3 turns), then Pyramids in 850BC. SPb builds Workboat (Send West).
Alphabet will be discovered in 1030BC, or even 1060BC. I think we will meet enough civs for trading at that moment and got all techs known by AI (not in single turn of course).
Next stage is building Settlers and colonize our land.

Unikum
9.12.2006, 2:05

I went ahead and played my turns. Now to describe it and upload the save to CFC. The date is 2050BC.

Moscow begins: Work Boat max growth, citizen on fishing net
St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat max growth, citizen on flood plain
Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Moscow grows: 2 citizen on unimproved clams, 2 food 2 commerce
Scout defeats (0.68/1): Barbarian Panther almost unscathed
Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel
Turn 45 (2650 BC)
Research begun: Pottery aiming for Libraries
Turn 46 (2620 BC)
Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Turn 49 (2530 BC)
St. Petersburg grows: 2 for the whip
Turn 50 (2500 BC)
Moscow grows: 2 it was going to grow to 3 and I whipped the turn before
Moscow finishes: Work Boat whipped the wb because there isn't enough good tiles for 3 citizens to work, and improving the clams will speed up the worker (+overfllow from the workboat) - due in 8 turns
St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat whipped, for the same reasons as in Moscow, but here we're building warriors (MP garrison)
Moscow begins: Worker we need them
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior and these guys too
Turn 52 (2440 BC)
Turn 53 (2410 BC)
Turn 54 (2380 BC)
Tech learned: Pottery
Turn 55 (2350 BC)
Research begun: Writing to build the libraries to get us an early GS
Turn 56 (2320 BC)
Turn 57 (2290 BC)
Judaism founded in a distant land we'll want it to spread here
Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Moscow finishes: Worker begins roading towards StP
St. Petersburg grows: 2
Turn 59 (2230 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker we need more of them (10 turns)
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior whipped - for Moscow garrison
Turn 60 (2200 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Warrior another one for StP
St. Petersburg finishes: Warrior ready in one turn thanks to the overflow from the last whip
Turn 61 (2170 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Granary for faster growth
Turn 62 (2140 BC)
Turn 63 (2110 BC)
Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Turn 65 (2050 BC) the road to StP is finished


Our cities are connected. Moscow size 2, StP size 1. Warriors stationed in both. The scout is fortified in jungle off Moscow. The first echelon of defense :lol: 3 workboats were used to improve seafood tiles. This is it for now for the seafood. One worker is ready with another due in 3. We could whip him but I think the whip is best applied to the library. I was going to play till our 2nd worker is built but seeing as the 1st worker has ran out of obvious things to do, and it's been more than 20 turns too, I've decided to stop and ask for advice.

PS. Can somebody with SGOTM experience tell me whether you use your username or the team name when uploading the savefile to CFC? It might be dumb question but it's better to be sure. (Answer: you use your CFC username.)

Our save at CFC: (link)
Edit. Does it look better now? With the comments now in place? Ready to start the nitpicking? :p

Balbes
9.12.2006, 2:08

I've replied via PM but will put it down here as well: When uploading the save, you enter your username for the CFC forums.

Unikum
9.12.2006, 2:29

And - especially in the early game - will the player please comment thoroughly on the micromanagement. Which tiles are worked, what the workers are doing, what and when is pop-rushed, and so on. It makes for good learning material for the spectators, and good nit-picking material for the teammates :)

Behemoth the Cat
9.12.2006, 6:48

IMHO the warriors should head out and begin fogbusting immediately.

Unikum
9.12.2006, 7:45

IMHO the warriors should head out and begin fogbusting immediately.
We haven't got any warriors. The two we've got are our garrisons. And we need those garrisons as we're poprushing. We need to build 2 more then?

Behemoth the Cat
9.12.2006, 8:26

Well, two more would be overkill... The borders will be expanding in 13 turns. Even earlier if we rush the library. Hm, after a look at the situation... Our land stretches a little too far for my liking, and is covered by jungle. Not very good for fogbusting. :( Perhaps we shouldn't after all.

Dynamic
9.12.2006, 22:08

I've ran a test with the warrior before the workboat (after the lib) in Moscow.
Alphabet is done in 1000BC, GS in 985BC, the Pyramids in 875BC (dates are as the log lists them). So, our science is stronger but the Pyramids arrive later...
Our worker should start building a cottage on the flood plain.

Balbes
10.12.2006, 3:10

By the way, can we spare a citizen to work that cottage? Here's a thought that's occured to me. We're rushing to Writing for the culture-generating library, and for open borders. But now we aren't in a hurry to get Alphabet. Yes we should build the library in St.Petersburg, but instead of assigning scientists, we'd better build at least one workboat for scouting, and possibly a settler for the copper.
Barbarians build their cities in the jungle on blue-circle spots, not on random tiles. Our warriors should be uncovering those blue-circle tiles we don't want to become cities, and leave fogged those where we're plannig our future cities at. We might get lucky and milk the barbs for free cities. Unfortunately, out of the 3 spots we want, 2 will be unfogged by our cultural borders on their next expansion.

Balbes
10.12.2006, 3:41

Here's my proposal for our city locations. Everything is pretty obvious I believe. This dotmap grabs as many resource tiles as possible while still ensuring every city has a food resource.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96076/sgotm3-cfrv-dotmap2050bc.jpg

Unikum
10.12.2006, 6:40

I agree on the cities. I think we should begin settling them after the Pyramids are done. Which one will be the first? Probably, Brown first, then Blue and finally Pink.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 10:08

We can work the cottage nearly constantly, the citizen is available. This is how we get to Alphabet faster than in Unikum's origina plan. I agree we don't really have to rush for it, other opportunities should be considered as well... A workboat for scouting East is included in the plan, and we'd do well to fit one for the West, too.
As for the cities, I disagree.
For one, the cities begin with no culture, and the early growth of Pink and Blue will be pretty glacial.
And we lose 2 gem tiles too.
And, we lose the spot for a possible city in the north. Without a successful early war, we may get to have to provide the 6 cities required for Oxford all by ourselves.

At the very beginning I was planning to settle Blue city where Balbes would have it, but later concluded that we need to sacrifice its growth potential and place it 1N of the copper, for immediate access to the copper and gems. Later, farms will allow the city to grow. The now-vacant fish is consumed by Pink city 1S of the cows.
Right away, Pink can use the cows, and rice (after it's farmed). This leaves open a potential city spot 2N of the cows (and switching the cows to that city later on).
I agree on Brown city.

The first one to be built should be the city at the copper. Losing the source of copper will make the game so much harder if we can't find any iron.

Gems are a priority. Money is scarce when aiming for a forceful domination...

Behemoth the Cat
10.12.2006, 10:50

Well Pink won't be that bad. Moscow is about to expand its border over the rice. Hovewer in this particular case, losing the fish seems the better choice over losing two gems.

PS. Really, let's post at CFC more. We're going to make the staff mad at us. The description of our game is absolutely nil!

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 11:33

Plan for the next turnset (20 turns):

2020BC - Worker starts Cottage on FP.
1990BC - SPb grows to 2, set second citizen on FP.
1960BC - Poprush Granary in SPb, Science 100%.
1930BC - Writing, start Masonry. SPb built Granary, start Library. Moscow built Worker, start Library. Worker2 2N.
1900BC - Worker2 are chopping.
1900BC
1870BC
1840BC
1810BC - Worker1 built Cottage.
1780BC - Moscow grows to 3, set citizen on 2f1h Forest(2N1W). Worker1 NW on Forest. Worker2 chop Forest.
1750BC - SPb grows to 2, set second citizen on FP. Worker2 S, start road on Stone.
1720BC
1690BC - Masonry, start Alphabet, 90%. Worker2 complete the Road on Stone.
1660BC - Moscow borders expand, Worker2 start Quarry.
1630BC - Moscow grows to 4, poprush Library, set second citizen on Crabs! SPb grows to 3, ubhappy citizen for 1 turn. Worker1 chop Forest.
1600BC - Moscow built Library, start Workboat (or Warrior). SPb 3-d citizen on 2f1h Forest. Worker 1 NE,SE.
1570BC - Worker1 start chopping.
1540BC
1510BC - SPb grows to 4, poprush Library.
1480BC - SPb built Library. Moscow grows to 3. Lets decide about forcing GS.
+30 hammers will be added to Moscow next turn. Warrior or Workboat on next turn.

And the roster...

Dynamic
Unikum - just played
Witan
JCricket
Kaizer
Balbes
Cat Behemoth
Bair

The earliest Witan can play is tomorrow night.
Who's available to play today? CB, Balbes, J?

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 11:47

I've been testing the save without the HoF mod. In the real save we have 22 gold so our science won't go below 100% on the way to Alphabet.
Still, where did that 22 gold come from? Did I miss something?... :(

Balbes
10.12.2006, 13:36

And, we lose the spot for a possible city in the north. Without a successful early war, we may get to have to provide the 6 cities required for Oxford all by ourselves.
Without a successful early war, we'll lose the competition, no matter where our cities are located.
For one, the cities begin with no culture, and the early growth of Pink and Blue will be pretty glacial.
It is a problem. I can see two solutions:
1. Just go ahead and plop the cities down as quickly as we can. Let them start slowly collecting the hammers for a library.
2. Build them when we have Caste System, and expand with an artist.
we lose 2 gems.
Life is hard, Beavis :)
Btw the fish is a potential +4 food = 2 scientists = 15 beakers. Not so much worse than 2 gems.
but later concluded that we need to sacrifice its growth potential and place it 1N of the copper, for immediate access to the copper and gems. Later, farms will allow the city to grow.
The only alternative for Blue is the plains hill 1NW of the copper. It won't have enough food to work that hill anyway, so, at least, let's get the 2-hammer city center then.
We can't build farms there, for the lack of water.
Whatever you say, a city with no food resources Suxxx. It'll take till the end of the game for it to grow to a reasonable size.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 13:57
Right, irrigating near the copper will take too long... OK this isn't an immediate concern, we should go on thinking it over again. As for the war - I meant if the war's delayed by something.
Pink can get a boost from the rice with Iron Working (I hope to trade for it.)

Ok, who can play today?
CB said he could. Anybody else?

JCricket
10.12.2006, 14:09

I can play, but I don't really understand what I should do, and most importantly, why. :rolleyes:
What is our grand strategy? We're supposed to conquer everyone but we don't know where they are. We may want to think of a backup plan. I'm very unsure of the exact meaning of a world conquest on a 17 agressive AIs map.
We need our 3rd city, and soon. I'm leaning towards Blue. It requires the most settler turns to reach, but that's not a critical detriment I believe. Very importantly, Blue will get us the metal, and bust more of the fog.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 14:38

I can play, but I don't really understand what I should do, and most importantly, why. :rolleyes:
What is our grand strategy? We're supposed to conquer everyone but we don't know where they are. We may want to think of a backup plan. I'm very unsure of the exact meaning of a world conquest on a 17 agressive AIs map.
We need our 3rd city, and soon. I'm leaning towards Blue. It requires the most settler turns to reach, but that's not a critical detriment I believe. Very importantly, Blue will get us the metal, and bust more of the fog.
See above for the plan for the next 20 turns. Our grand strategy depends on what we discover. For the medium term, our goals are: Alphabet, a Great Scientist, the Pyramids, and settling our island after that. The path to a Diplomatic victory cannot become clear until we see more of the map. Generally speaking, our science should be strong, but not excessively so - science is not the only thing required. With Aggressive AIs, getting relations up to Friendly is very hard. So I guess (not sure though) we're going to have to conquer a (major) share of the nations. This will hamstring our science, so wars are better fought near the end of the game.

With the Pyramids, we get +2 happiness, more beakers from our specialists, and a chance of a Great Engineer, whom we can later use for the UN. Though, alternatively, we can rush to Mass Media, and build the UN slowly just as we're conquering, as science won't be of any concern anymore. Really, I just don't have all the answers! I've never played a game with these settings.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 15:31

All is quiet....

Balbes
10.12.2006, 15:44

I can play, but I don't really understand what I should do, and most importantly, why. :rolleyes:
What is our grand strategy?
And what is your opinion? Nobody here is an omniscient and omnipotent champion. So, any and all ideas are welcome and very much needed.

We're supposed to conquer everyone but we don't know where they are. We may want to think of a backup plan.This thing about different plans... If one scenario, in this case "conquering everyone", is clearly superior to the others, even though harder and less likely to succeed. Then we must count on (some of) the rival teams to choose that scenario and implement it successfully. In order to compete, we have no choice but to go with that scenario ourselves.
With Aggressive AIs, getting relations up to Friendly is very hard. So I guess (not sure though) we're going to have to conquer a (major) share of the nations. This will hamstring our science, so wars are better fought near the end of the game.
Our science will only suffer for a while, before recovering for a net profit. I'm certain we should take out the closest neighbors very early as opposed to very late, and use, especially, their capitals.
How exactly will we conduct late-game wars? With Cossacks? But they're off our tech path.

As for our construction plans. In the short term, we want the following
-2 workboats, or better still 3
-2 or so warriors
-a settler would also be nice
-granaries
-libraries
-Pyramids
How are we going to fit all of this into our scedule? Our hammer output is limited.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 15:52

Our research will only suffer for a while, before recovering for a net profit. I'm certain we should take out the closest neighbors very early as opposed to very late, and use, especially, their capitals.
How exactly will we conduct late-game wars? With Cossacks? But they're off our tech path.
I'm not opposed to an early war. Everything will depend on the circumstances: how powerful our neighbors are, how rich is their land, which Wonders they build, how much are they worth as research partners. Alas we can't go for just their capitals, no city razing is on...
And late in the game, if we can develop a tech lead then Maces and Cats, with something anti-cavalry thrown into the mix. As the AIs are numerous, each one will be relatively weak (or so I hope). If we have no tech lead, things can get ugly. We'll have to research a military tech or two. Maybe Chemistry-Biology if we have beakers to spare, for growth and Grenadiers.
As for our construction plans. In the short term, we want the following
-2 workboats, or better still 3
-2 or so warriors
-a settler would also be nice
-granaries
-libraries
-Pyramids
How are we going to fit all of this into our scedule? Our hammer output is limited.
The first scouting workboat will be ready in 1450BC, the 2nd one depends on how much we concentrate on getting the GS, but probably around 1000BC. Extra warriors - we'll get only one, in Moscow after the workboat. Granary and Library in StP as early as 1480BC, even earlier in Moscow (see above). Granary in Moscow will have to wait. The Pyramids in 850BC. Settlers after that. By that time we may be able to trade for Sailing and save our settlers the long trek around the island.

Balbes
10.12.2006, 16:08

The first scouting workboat will be ready in 1450BC, the 2nd one depends on how much we concentrate on getting the GS, but probably around 1000BC.
Will this wb (1450) be a scouting workboat? Isn't it earmarked for the clams off St.Petersburg?
Speaking of StP, what kind of citizen allocation are we going to use? I would think 2 citizens work the clams, and one is a scientist; production is settlers/workers. Assign a 2nd scientist when unhappiness expires. Or move him to the FP cottage.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 16:38

Will this wb (1450) be a scouting workboat? Isn't it earmarked for the clams off St.Petersburg?
Speaking of StP, what kind of citizen allocation are we going to use? I would think 2 citizens work the clams, and one is a scientist; production is settlers/workers. Assign a 2nd scientist when unhappiness expires. Or move him to the FP cottage.
Yes it's the scout workboat. If StP goes for a quick GS, we set one citizen on FP cottage for 10 turns, then move him to Crabs for 1 turn and grow to size3 (unhappines prevented it earlier), then one citizen on crabs and 2 scientists till the GS is born (985BC autolog date).

Balbes
10.12.2006, 16:48

I'm not very sure we really want to rush for the great scientist. A second workboat for scouting, or a faster settler, may be more important than saving several turns on the GS.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 16:57

I'm not very sure we really want to rush for the great scientist. A second workboat for scouting, or a faster settler, may be more important than saving several turns on the GS.
And this is exactly what we need to determine in 1480BC, after the end of the next turnset.
We need more testing.
For the time being I'm not keen on the early settler. This slows down our science, the settler has a long way to go, and our workers are otherwise occupied.

Dynamic
10.12.2006, 20:09

In fact we're getting Alphabet even earlier, in 1030BC. The added income from trade routes, I guess.
I'm still for a quick GS, and no settlers. Before Pyramids, Moscow builds a scout wb to explore east, and a warrior for fogbusting...
Let's continue our discussion tomorrow. Please don't play before that.

Unikum
10.12.2006, 21:30

I'm at loss as to where the money came from. They were already there at the end of the 1st turnset, I think.
I'm going to run a few more tests tonight. I seem to have acquired a taste for them. I think the 3rd city should be delayed until after Alphabet, at least.

Unikum
10.12.2006, 23:57

Here's the test savegame for our current situation. I've added the extra gold. HoF mod included. (attachment)

PS. 2 Dynamic
Did you pop any huts? Though, that'd have given us more gold.

Unikum
11.12.2006, 1:41

There wasn't any extra gold I'm sure! Where did they come from? I don't understand. Could the staff have added it for some reason? Any guesses?

I've been running science at 100% always. Can it be somehow connected to pop-rushing?

Unikum
11.12.2006, 2:04

In the test savegame I gave us 22 gold in 2800, and uploaded it after playing. Now it's become 45 gold. So you should decrease it in WB in city edit mode. So, slavery must be somehow giving extra gold. Or... I'm completely stumped. Will try to track it down.

JCricket
11.12.2006, 2:12

Dynamic- I'm not asking for all the answers, am I? It's just some of those assertions of yours (and other people's) are bristling with what I see as unfounded certainity. I'm not very certain about those matters at all. For one, I doubt that conquest diplomacy is the easier way compared to semi-peaceful diplomacy. Each AI has only a few cities, true; but all of them are heavily defended. Taking out a couple of AIs before they meet many others can minimize the hurt on our foreign relations; however, as we cannot raze cities, we may have to delay this war and it only makes it harder for us.
I'm still convinced we shouldn't have abandoned our plans for the Oracle. CoL+Confucianism, or a forge+engineer+GLib in St.Pete would have done us more good than a very early Alphabet. But this is already a thing of the past, no sense dwelling on it. I had a go at Unikum's latest test save. I built the Blue city just before the Pyramids, chopping forests aroung StP into the settler. The maintenance is 1 coin per turn, not enough to hurt our economy. Or, it may make sense to chop a second workboat instead of the settler. Depends on how the AIs are located, but we won't know that until after we have the workboars :sad: Philosophy and CoL were discovered early, around 700BC and 950BC I think, so we may well miss Taoism. No foreign religions spread to us, this isn't good either.
I fail to see much sense in rushing for the GS before we get the Pyramids, so the citizens are better used pop-rushing the workboat/settler.

Unikum
11.12.2006, 2:23

The investigation is complete. When StP had grown to 2, I poprushed an almost completed warrior. The warrior is 22 hammers and 20 were already invested. So it became 65/22. 45 from slavery + one hammer from StP itself. 44 hammers should overflow then, but we got 22 hammers and 22 gold!!! So that's it. I wonder if it's the same in Warlords with the HOF mod?

Unikum
11.12.2006, 2:47

JCricket
Still I think that early Alphabet will benefit us very much. And will everyone speak up their mind earlier? With more or less detailed plans if at all possible, maybe even with logs of test runs. There's a multitude of possible scenarios for this game. What will we be doing after Alphabet? How long will it take to build the Oracle if we go for it after the Pyramids? Perhaps we could trade for all the techs it requires, after Alphabet, and try to build it? Of course an early GLib would be better still.

Taking out a couple of AIs before they meet many others can minimize the hurt on our foreign relations; however, as we cannot raze cities, we may have to delay this war and it only makes it harder for us.
I disagree here. This way or the other, there will be an "axis of evil" suited for attacking. It might be as many as 4 or 5 same-religion civs. And the other civs can even help us with that. And we can gift cities away to our friends, weakening their economies.

Philosophy and CoL were discovered early, around 700BC and 950BC I think, so we may well miss Taoism.J, did you take a look at that map in Worldbuilder? Look at the German lands. No wonder they are running away in techs and discovering courthouses and philosophy. A capital with 6 gemstones, and corn! Can't fight that. Witan's been at it again with his map design style.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 9:27

I think we should go for Code of Laws after Alphabet, we should be able to get there in time, the test map wasn't your average map. An early GS will provide a healthy boost to our science, allowing us to research expensive techs and trade them for other expensive techs. After that, Literature. If we are able to found an early religion and spread it - that's very good, fewer wars to fight.

Behemoth the Cat
11.12.2006, 9:40

I think we should go for Code of Laws after Alphabet, we should be able to get there in time, the test map wasn't your average map.
You see, I still think it is not optimal. The Oracle would have fetched us it quicker.

Of course it's almost sure to get built before 1000BC :( To build the Oracle, you must begin the Pyramids as soon as you have learned Masonry. That slows down your overall development, naturally.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 10:03

They will build it before 1000BC for sure. And heaps of useless techs are required. Too much risk for too little reward IMHO.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 13:08

I think we should go for Code of Laws after Alphabet, we should be able to get there in time, the test map wasn't your average map.
You see, I still think it is not optimal. The Oracle would have fetched us it quicker.

Do we really want a quick Code of Laws? We cannot assign many scientists anyway, we need the manpower in hammer production. Confucianism seems better avoided, as well. It would make for two religions together with Taoism, and in that kind of setup you always seem to get the wrong religion spread somewhere. It's better to wait for the AIs to discover CoL, and trade for it, meanwhile pushing along the Literature-Philosophy branch.

I'm still convinced we shouldn't have abandoned our plans for the Oracle. CoL+Confucianism, or a forge+engineer+GLib in St.Pete would have done us more good than a very early Alphabet. But this is already a thing of the past, no sense dwelling on it.
Let us arrive at a clear understanding anyway. Learning and improvement are among the principal goals of a game such as this one. So none of the important points should remain murky. I do believe our earlier discussion shows conclusively that Oracle is better avoided?

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 13:31

Literature itself isn't so much of an early priority. Our cities are going to be busy building settlers and workers. Philosoply requires either Drama or CoL anyway. CoL is more useful for the time being, and the earlier we start spreading a religion, the more AIs are likely to adopt it. Additionally, we may have to switch to Castes for a few turns after our cities are settled, to pop the borders quickly, even though we're reluctant to waste the anarchy turns. Well if a religion spreads there it might become unnecessary, but we still need a religion (and converting to thar religion is not required at all).

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 13:55

Pioneer Knights and the Gypsy are showing the telltale jumps in score with the discovery of Alphabet. Pretty late, later than 700BC.

Behemoth the Cat
11.12.2006, 14:14

Let us arrive at a clear understanding anyway. Learning and improvement are among the principal goals of a game such as this one. So none of the important points should remain murky. I do believe our earlier discussion shows conclusively that Oracle is better avoided?
I wouldn't go as far as saying it has been shown conclusively. IMHO the Oracle is good in any scenario. It can't do any harm, that much is certain. The only problem is that probably we'll lose the race to it. Well we can try and chop it in StP, but it's still very risky.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 15:23

Most of the arguments concerning the Oracle were centered on its relative benefits compared to the other options. But there was one about its harm, too. And it was the one that convinced me to forego the Oracle: polluting our GP gene pool with Prophet points. For every Prophet we get instead of a Scientist, we lose 1000 beakers. We could afford that on just a single occasion, because we're going to lightbulb Philosophy with a GS, losing 800 beakers. But the second Prophet already is a pure loss. Therefore, if our Oracle city gives birth to one Great Person and no more till the end of the game, we could afford for the GPerson to be born a prophet. But we have decided that it's better to run 2 or 3 GP farms, the Oracle city included. This makes polluting the pool unacceptable.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 16:08

Literature itself isn't so much of an early priority. Our cities are going to be busy building settlers and workers.
BTW what techs will be available to us to trade to the AIs, for IW and stuff? We don't actually know any techs besides Alphabet itself.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 16:14

Literature itself isn't so much of an early priority. Our cities are going to be busy building settlers and workers.
BTW what techs will be available to us to trade to the AIs, for IW and stuff? We don't actually know any techs besides Alphabet itself.
The techs we've already learned can prove sufficient. There is a lot of AIs, and someone will likely know Iron Working but be missing many of the other techs. In the worst case we can trade Alphabet away. It isn't as crippling as it may sound. By this point in the game, most of the AIs have few contacts with each other, mostly in pairs or triangles; so Alphabet won't spread early and wide. Additionally, when they begin trading among themselves, it will make available some of the otherwise monopoly techs.

JCricket
11.12.2006, 17:03

Most of the arguments concerning the Oracle were centered on its relative benefits compared to the other options. But there was one about its harm, too. And it was the one that convinced me to forego the Oracle: polluting our GP gene pool with Prophet points.
IMHO that is insignificant in the extreme, especially with Castes. What's more, lightbulbing a religion with the first prophet (btw Philosophy is only available with Drama/CoL, and I completely forgot about it in my test run), we can build the shrine with the second prophet - so a big gain instead :p All right, let's see what we can get in trades, and then get down to the planning.

PS. With so many AIs to trade with, we should be able to get everything we need, with spare trading stock left.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 17:17

A shrine is not so great, and can hardly compare to 2500 beakers.

A question re. Dynamic's plan: why does Moscow build a library first instead of a granary?

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 17:28

A question re. Dynamic's plan: why does Moscow build a library first instead of a granary?
In fact it was Unikum's suggestion but I agree with him. The library gains is beakers immediately (3 per turn), while the granary does notning but speed up growth and make us hit the ceiling even faster (4 pop for a long time, 5 afterwards). It does speed up the Pyramids as well, a little, but I think we're doing OK as it is. And it loses us some science, as after the Pyramids we won't quite have the time for a library either.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 20:04

3 beakers/turn doesn't impress me very much. We'd better use the surplus hammers from building a granary instead of a library for a workboat, and have it explore the world - time is also a resource, and there is no way to make up for lost exploration turns. Also, Moscow will grow faster and construct the Pyramids faster, grow quickly again to work all the mines, and then finally build the library.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 20:46

I've ran the test of the GS-less scenario.
It might be better to produce a GE first, after all. Otherwise the GLib takes 35 turns to build...
Here are the principal ideas. We build no libraries, and switch research to Masonry right now. Moscow builds a workboat after the worker, pop-rushes the workboat when 1 turn is left till the quarry is ready, then the Pyramids (985BC). St.Pete whips a granary, then builds a warrior for fogbusting. Then it alternates between a settler and a workboat, as suitable in order to optimize growth/happiness. Just before it would grow to size4, we whip a settler who then proceeds towards the isthmus. Our most useful new city location is there. StP then continues its settler/wb build, aided by a couple of chops/poprushes closer to its finish. This scenario gets us Alphabet around 910BC, and our research is naturally somewhat weaker, but we also get 3 cities and a settler. the GLib is also a sure thing then (around 400BC), with plenty of time for the development of the infrastructure.

For now, worker1 builds a cottage, then runs quickly to the quarry site. Worker2 builds a road to connect the site, then prechops the roaded forest near StP (losing no turns), then helps with the quarry.

JCricket
11.12.2006, 20:55

Yes, I think I like this scenario the best. Tech trading will get us back to par in research.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 20:58

And 2 forests remain near Moscow

Witan
11.12.2006, 20:59

I'm very worried about the fact we haven't a single workboat out exploring by turn 60!

We have tied our strategy to reaching Alphabet early. Then we must get those explorers out early as well! I'm going to try to fit in a workboat in this scenario somehow. A weird shape of the landmass may prevent us from having more than 5-6 contacts when we get to Alphabet. But if we manage to cast off now...

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:02

Having finished the quarry, our workers build 2 mines, then chop the forests in the west. Then, one of them begins a cottage and the other chops the last forest for the Pyramids.

I think we'll be able to just make it in time with regards to exploration, especially given that Alphabet will be slightly delayed

Balbes
11.12.2006, 21:02

Have I undrstood your plan correctly: we don't assign any scientists, working the high-food tiles, and preparing a number of settlers and workers for explosive expansion. So the moment we learn Iron Working, we already have the cities in place, and workers around them, machetes in hand. As for wonders, we build the Pyramids and produce an engineer from the Pyramids alone. Well I think I like this scenario the best.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:05

Although we are sure to miss Confucianism then...

Your understanding is correct.

Behemooth the Cat
11.12.2006, 21:08

Well looks like we're in a complete agreement :)

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:10

If we aren't in a big hurry to play, I can prepare a micromanagement plan, turn for turn (not right now though).

Balbes
11.12.2006, 21:10

We don't need a granary in St.Petersburg then, the city won't be able to grow anyway. And the library is still required, for border expansion.

Witan
11.12.2006, 21:16

Seeing that our development plans have just undergone a slight :) adjustment, I'd like a couple of questions.

-are we fully decided on the dotmap?
I'd prefer to place the copper city right next to the copper. Barbarians can build it in the wrong location, and they sure are going to be generally annoying us, while we have to protect the quarry.

-the order in which we settle our cities
again, having the copper connected is essential, so the copper city is #3

-barbarian galleys
I could find no clues at all as to when and why they appear, but our fisheries are completely without protection

Kaizer
11.12.2006, 21:18

Sorry about my week-long absence, I've been upgrading my PC at home (with some of the nice stuff :) ) As far as I understand, we do have a test map, and Witan is the next to play? i'm reinstalling all Civs today (btw I've got 2-3 copies installed at all times as I play PBEM games requiring different versions, and at several sites. Is this kind of setup compatible with the HOF mod or do I need to deinstall all copies but one?

PS. I'll take a look at our overall situation tomorrow

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:21

The granary in StP is necessary so that the city is able to regrow quickly, why did you say it shouldn't grow? And the effect of library is minimal, we have got enough resources even without expanding the borders.

JCricket
11.12.2006, 21:22


I'm very worried about the fact we haven't a single workboat out exploring by turn 60!
I think we should probably be able to fit at least one workboat into the schedule. Therefore I'm in favor of finishing the research of Writing, and signing Open Borders, (hopefully) allowing us to meet more of the other civs. This needs more testing - Researching Masonry first and then finishing up Writing might indeen be better.
The Great Engineer can be obtained earlier if we run a single scientist with a library there, after the Pyramids. Even if the RNG gods don't favor us and give us a scientist, we won't be at a loss to find a use for him. In StP, the library can wait, at size2 or 3 (clams + floodplain cottage + forested spices) we're doing ok and are not in a hurry for the 2nd clams.

Crossposted with Dynamic :mischief:

Kaizer
11.12.2006, 21:23

Barbarian galleys appear randomly whenever barbarian land units would have appeared but have nowhere to spawn. Usually they appear of small, 1-2 tile islands, not unfogged by any civilization. Just like the usual barb units, they attack right away, or if the odds are too low, wander around. This means if there aren't any smallish islands around, galleys won't be appearing.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 21:24

I admit I posted about no need for a granary without giving it much thought. With Slavery, 1 food = 2.25 hammers, which is better than investing the food directly into a settler. Also, we have 3 high-yield tiles: 2 clams and the floodplain. This means we can grow to 5 and poprush for 2. With +2+2+1 = +5 food, we regain 2 city sizes in 8 turns... so 7 turns remain for us to work on the settler. During the 7 turns we invest +5f+1h * 7 = 42, with the worker costing 90, 48 more hammers are needed, just right for the 2-pop rush, overflowing 40 into the next project. If a settler is next, we invest 42h in 7 turns, 150-82 = 68 still needed, ok for a 2-pop rush. It looks possible to work out a kind of a cycle.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:25

We're dispatching the warrior from Moscow to prevent barbarians from appearing near the copper. Later he will be relieved by a newly-built warrior from St.Pete.

Balbes
11.12.2006, 21:28

The forest spices are unavailable until St.Petersburg's borders expand. So we need them to expand in any case.

Witan
11.12.2006, 21:29

I decided to try and run another test session after all:
St.P chops a workboat (6 turns required), the overflow is put into a granary. As we're building a worker in Moscow, switching to Masonry is obvious, so the worker can have something to do. Then, finish Writing. No Libraries - no good places to build them

JCricket
11.12.2006, 21:32

The forest spices are unavailable until St.Petersburg's borders expand. So we need them to expand in any case.
OK, the screenshot confirms this. Somehow I was thinking they'd end up within Moscow's borders.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:35

We don't need the spices for now

Nor a cycle in St.P, there isn't an awful lot of new city spots.
We haven't decided on a dotmap. There is still time for thinking.

Ok everybody get down to testing :)

Balbes
11.12.2006, 21:36

I'll also run a test of my plan tonight. In St.Petersburg I'll chop the wb and granary, partially chop and partially whip the library, and continue building worker-settler-worker-settler from there. We can compare the completion dates then.

Dynamic
11.12.2006, 21:39

At last...

JCricket
11.12.2006, 22:32

My test run is complete.
Pyramids+Alphabet in 925BC, two workboats out scouting, warrior+settler/city (depending on the location chosen) are done, 3 workers, granaries in both Moscow (5) and St.Pete (2), library in St.Pete.
I'll post the exact build order a little later.
The Great Engineer is born in 565BC (73% chance), GLib a turn later. If we want better probability, we can delay him a little.

Behemoth the Cat
11.12.2006, 23:26

73% is definitely too low... I strongly believe we need at least 95%. Even with 90%, my experiences have been less than pleasant. If we really need that engineer, we can hardly afford to run the scientist for more that 2 or 3 turns.

Unikum
11.12.2006, 23:33

Talk about spamming the thread! Shucks, we should've went for the early Pyramids plan. Masonry first, before all the other techs, if a GE is what we want. But it's too late to speak now. I like J's test run, though I think we'll have to delay the GE for a better probability.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 0:00

Talk about spamming the thread! Shucks, we should've went for the early Pyramids plan. Masonry first, before all the other techs, if a GE is what we want. But it's too late to speak now. Testing the "early Pyramids" is exactly what we're doing now. Just how much earlier do you think we could start? With no roads to connect the stone? With no workers built yet? Now isn't "too late", now is about the earliest possible.

Unikum
12.12.2006, 1:45

Didn't I post a test run getting the pyramids in 13xx? That's what I call early pyramids. We researched them before writing in that test. And built worker-first not workboat-first.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 1:54

I've played out my proposed plan.

1600BC/T80 scouting wb off
1570BC/T81 second scouting wb off
1060BC/T98 Pyramids
giving us a purebred engineer on T136 (435BC)
Moscow is size 5, StP 4.
970BC/T102 library in StP
925BC/T105 Alphabet
880BC/T108 3rd workboat improves clams
865BC/T109 settler ready

We have 3 workers, I've traded for techs and erected lighthouses, can now pump out a worker-settler pair every 10 turns.
Am I a groovy micromanager or what?

Didn't I post a test run getting the pyramids in 13xx? That's what I call early pyramids. We researched them before writing in that test. And built worker-first not workboat-first.
Well, 13xx is just 10 turns earlier, hardly qualifies as "early" (I don't mean to criticize!). And the price to pay is an underdeveloped infrastructure. Investing in the infra first is always the better choice.

JCricket
12.12.2006, 2:07

giving us a purebred engineer on T136 (435BC)
We're 100% to have Literature by then, even if we can't get Polytheism in a trade.
The only thing left to do is decide what do we prioritize, a 3rd city or the GLib. The picture is getting clearer :)

Unikum
12.12.2006, 2:13

What do you mean underdeveloped? It's developed all right, and 10 turns is 10 turns! Or do you mean to say you have all those improvements built by 13xx? Getting the GE 10 turns quicker, and 120 raw beakers from the GLib scientists quicker, and 120 GP points too. Whatever you say 13xx is pretty early for the Pyramids and darn sure earlier than 10xx.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 2:17

What do you mean underdeveloped? It's developed all right, and 10 turns is 10 turns! Or do you mean to say you have all those improvements built by 13xx?
Now, this one is certainly true! I don't have everything built by the 13xx's. I do by the end of the session, which is definitely not the same thing. Well, the workboats starting their exlopration early is the remaining strong point then.

Unikum
12.12.2006, 2:25

Now you see where I'm coming from. Had we decided to head for the early Pyramids and the GLib-from-GE plan, I should have played in a different way. Effectively, I've played my turnset wrong. We should've decided on a strategy and stuck to it. My play was geared for the early Academy. Sigh. Now we're going to have to do more testing. Trying two early workboats and the pyramids now...

Balbes
12.12.2006, 2:40

Let me introduce a proposal. This time, we play our test runs up to the completion of the Great Library. This is the only way to meaningfully compare them. An early academy scenario still might prove to be better.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 5:35

I've played it up to 415BC, building the Great Library at that date. Literature was conveniently researched 2 turns earlier.

Our assets: 3 new cities built. Still size 1 so far. All 3 were settled almost simultaneously. We have 6 workers, who already have finished connected all the cities, and improved a resource near each of them.

As for techs, we know Iron, Sailing, Priesthood. We don't know Metal Casting and Code of Laws yet. Moscow has just finished a barracks and is ready to begin pumping out swordsmen. The overall development of our country has been very well balanced. Everything arrives just in time - techs, buildings, units.

Our raw combined research power is 73 beakers per turn. GS in StP in 8 turns. This GS will build us an academy, meanwhile we research/trade for CoL and Math, and the 2nd GS lightbulbs us Philosophy. Great.

Total beakers generated so far (total beakers in techs we researched, not traded for): 2904

Total hammers generated (with modifiers, so that granary, Pyramids, are half price; including the GLib built by the GE as 525h): 1573

Unikum
12.12.2006, 5:58

I believe any tests that run beoynd Alphabet are pretty much useless. We're going to trade for many of the techs, but we can't know what we'll be able to get and what we won't. Too many of the variables can change wildly, making comparison very hard.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 6:29

Speaking of critically important techs, I was able to trade for Sailing and the Myst-Poly(Literature)-Priesthood branch. The AIs refused to give up IW and CoL. I think this example is quite realistic. If the other test differ significantly, we can just add the necessary techs with Worldbuilder.

And, I'm comparing the total quantity of beakers in techs we did not trade for. I see no problems in treating this as the chief indicator of efficiency of our research.

Unikum
12.12.2006, 6:41

I have played a test game too. Pyramids in 1150. 2 boats scouting since long ago. Granaries in both cities. 2 workers.
PS. I could easily get Iron in a trade for Alphabet. And everyting else in exchange for Writing.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 6:55

That's good speed. I think we'll be using your MM plan if we deciede to go for the pyramids scenario. Can you post a turn-by-turn MM schedule? And for now, will somebody please test the academy scenario?

Unikum
12.12.2006, 7:32

Didn't I test the one with the Academy? Now we have to decide. Both scenarios are OK, but I like the "early" Pyramids better. I like Great Engineers. My favorite Great People, they are.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 7:47

Did you play it through to the completion of the GLib? I'd like to count beakers and hammers, and compare. Yeah it does take 35 turns to build it manually. But it might still be the more efficient choice.

Unikum
12.12.2006, 8:36

I didn't, will try to.

Bair
12.12.2006, 8:48

Btw WHAT are you testing with? a kind of test savegame? give it to me too! :)

Dynamic
12.12.2006, 9:43

Yes, our actions have been less than consistent, alas... nobody but ourselves is to blame, as nobody except Unikum and me was testing, and not very far into the game as well.
With regards to tech trading, we should assume we'll be able to get all the important techs up to and including IW. Though we may have to give Alphabet away in exchange, it's all right.

Unikum
12.12.2006, 10:21

Btw WHAT are you testing with? a kind of test savegame? give it to me too! :)

Dynamic is going to attach it to the first post. If you want it earlier look 3-4 pages back. I had uploaded it.

Witan
12.12.2006, 14:59

The early Academy scenario is risky. Even with its uncertain potential to give us X beakers more, I'm against it. It's true I wasn't planning to include the Pyramids (there was no stone visible at the start), now I'm liking the idea more and more. Foregoing an early Academy and missing the Pyramids won't do at all. So, Pyramids, here we come!

Unikum
12.12.2006, 15:08

We can get em in 1150, real year - or a turn earlier in the numbering scheme of autolog.
I've played out a couple of variations. Do we absolutely need two scouting workboats very early, or will it do to have one, and the other ca.1200? One-turn difference with the Pyramids. Please everyone, get down to testing. There may be even better solutions. I should note I poprush the Pyramids and other stuff too.

Balbes
12.12.2006, 15:35

Foregoing an early Academy and missing the Pyramids won't do at all. So, Pyramids, here we come!
It's impossible to miss the Pyramids, their completion date is the same in both of the scenarios! Their only difference is assigning 2 scientists in StP for a quick GS, versus waiting for a GE.

I should note I poprush the Pyramids and other stuff too.
This would explain how you manage to get them a few turns earlier. I didn't poprush them because it isn't very hammer-efficient. Only if you