Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Civilization IV version 1.61, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 1.61. This is currently HOF_Mod-1.61.008 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

PFC dV Checking in.

To all:

Be sure to subscribe to this thread, and to the SGOTM maintenance thread (or AlanH will come after you! :spank: :whipped: )

Does everyone have the HOF mod .008 installed? Anyone need any info about the mod?

Be careful not to accidentally enter another team's SGOTM 03 thread. I have seen posts where players have done that inadvertantly, so it can happen.

To get acquainted, here is the info about skill and experience from our sign-up posts:

Conquistador 63
2. monarch/emperor
3. yes, since GOTM5
4. yes, SGOTM2 (still in progress)

da_Vinci
2. Level? You mean what I can win at? Noble always, prince most of the time. Monarch would be iffy.
3. Played GOTM 10 (got killed), 11 (won on adventurer) 12 (won on contender)
4. No prior succession games

Ronnie1
2. Monarch
3. yes
4. yes

Joemama
2. Just moved up to monarch.
3. Once, but I died and didn't submit.
4. No.

igelkott
2. Monarch
3. Yes
4. Yes

Confusion
2. can win monarch with a good start
3. Played once, lost on emp.
4. no

Scout214
2. Prince
3. No
4. No

So four of us are new to succession games. We'll be looking to the veterans for guidance.

dV

Hello all, here is the first post to gypsy, I mean gipse, I mean gypsy dominance.

What does everyone think of the starting position? I vote scout one east and discuss. From there I would think scout northeast, but if something looks interseting, maybe south. I like the two clams, but my experience is that good land tiles are hard to come by on this map, and I don't know if I want to build Moscow on one of our two visible floodplains. I would also prefer to have some hammers in the capital BFC.

As far as tech goes, I vote fishing. We will need to hit at least one of the clams and fishing boats make great scouts on this map.

Hello all! I'm Scout214. daVinci and I are longtime friends. He's more proficient at Civ 4 than I am, though.

dV and I have tried two Monarch level 18 player games, with each of us taking a different Peter the Russian position. In the first, I found it important to get more settlers going quickly. My position got strung out in a thin north/south line on one island. The Romans and Aztecs attacked me quickly. I think the game in general has the AI do that to punish humans who neglect to build sufficient military units quickly enough. Otherwise, they leave us alone for a while. In the second game, I got more settlers going faster and went to war repeatedly and briefly to expunge any AI's who plopped cities down on 'my' island. There's one left to hit but otherwise I have about 8 cities on a sizable island.

I also tried one alone. The Japanese and I shared an island. They made four cities far quicker than I could get a second one going. While they gobbled up the copper resource, it turned out that I had iron near my capital. I had gone to war to get their copper city but that was a mistake. I should have waited, gotten the iron, and pursued them in strength instead of piecemeal.

In that case, it behooved me NOT to make settlers fast. Depends on the situation. Our scout will be crucial to ascertain what we need to do based on how big the island is and whether we share it.

In general, my preferences include founding the first city where the settler starts. I hate giving away a turn of scientific research. In this case, though, I'm thinking that 1N may be better. My limited experience of the Monarch setting tells me that the capital city's ability to produce stuff fast is more important than in lower levels of the game. If faced with a hostile AI on the island, that would be especially so. Moving 1N gets us a greater production capacity. City #2 should go to the NE to grab the 3 hammer hill as well, unless the scout finds a reason not.

I tend to refrain from building Warriors at all, but compensate by getting archery fairly quickly. There is seldom a situation in which we'd get attacked so fast that we couldn't have at least one archer done, unless we reseacrh so many other things first that we interminably delay getting that one.

To me it is crucial to identify quickly where the copper, horses and iron are. Getting the appropriate research done to accomplish that is important.

Usually, I delay getting a worker to give the capital time to build some population. Instead, I build a barracks in advance of the archer so that we are always building higher quality troops. Thereafter, getting a worker to do its thing with roads, mines, cottages, farms, etc. is important.

Getting fishing going isn't that big a priority to me. However, in a game of islands we're going to need some galleys faster than usual.

Scout214

Welcome Kings!:D

Now we can get down to some real planning!

Has everyone had a chance to play with "permanent alliances"? I believe it will be the key to victory in this game. I would suggest you try at least a quick setting game with alliances so you begin to get a feel for how they work.

As for our early strategy, city placement will be important on this map. As has been suggested in our earlier discussions, the first move will be to move the scout E-NE to the hill and see what there is to see. The 1st player should then post a screen shot for evaluation and discussion. It will be important for people to try and check to this thread at least daily if we are to be effective as a team. And there is no reason to rush through your turnset, we are not in a hurry! If you have questions or just want some feedback, always feel free to keep the team informed.

I've copied parts of the following posts from the old Gipsy Kings thread because I think they are relevant here.

@All,
I've spent some time looking at Team CFR's SGOTM2 thread, I believe that they won. They really go into detail about their plans, and have some really great debates about their options. I don't believe I have the skill currently to match their tactics. I am going to keep reading however and see how much I can cram in! It makes for some great learning opportunities if any of you are interested.

@R1: it is a good idea to read other sgotm2 threads indeed. I started reading short straw's - I picked them cause they did ok even though they weren't the "best". Dunno why, maybe I thought "the best" would have too much micromanaging for our tastes. In fact, even ss used MM tactics like binary research and the pop-rushing bug. I doubt that "casual players" like our team would bother to do that, but maybe I am just wrong.

I am not a big fan of micro managing at all, what I am interested in, is learning how to effectively raise the scores of my games, while having a great time of course!! The reason I picked CFR, was to see what Obermot was doing in that game. He always finishes very high, and I've tried to implement some of his strategies.

I think we should spend some time discussing which victory type we will employ. There will be some overlap in strategy of course, but I believe the sooner we are able to choose a clear path, things will get easier and be more focused.

Most importantly, as DV said in his opening post, do not look at any of the other team threads or we will be DQ'ed.:sad:
Make sure you have the most current HOF mod, (.008) I believe.
Let's all have fun and give 'em hell!

As far as the opening moves go, since it seems our settler will be headed north, couldn't he move 1E first before heading accross the river? I believe going E then NW will take the same number of moves as just going N or NE and it would reveal the tile 2E of the settlers' current position.

Also, for all of us newbies, what is the best way to post screen shots? Do I need to get a photobucket account or something?

Hi all!

The games that Scout214 refers to are multiplayer games where each of us is playing Peter, with 16 AI (18 total seems to be the max). We hook up by cell phone (free LD, free nights and weekends) to talk while we play, and it's good fun for us old high school buddies.

@Ronnie1: do you know if there is a strategy thread that addresses permanent alliances? Scout214 and I have never chased a diplomatic victory, so that is a new approach to us.

@all: Might be worthwhile to make a list of things we do the same for either victory type, and things that need to be different. For example which of the following are same or different between types:

Early expansion, choice of wonders, choice of religion, size of empire (land, pop), how we respond to AI demands ...

OK, back to the lay of the land. Scout move east, then up the hill NE makes sense. But is that the only move? Let's discuss whether there might be merit to moving the scout NW, then either N, NE, or E to the other hill depending on where the water is.

Where to move the scout depends on what information we most need to make our decision about the settler. I think that there are only a few contingencies.

Settling in place looks workable. Lots of commerce to be had, and lots of food. Lean on the hammers, but there is the hill under the spice NW. If we chop all of the forest, that hill would be the only real hammer source. But perhaps we can make up for that by just pop rushing production in that city.

Settling in place is mated to the idea that we use the other two hills for a production city. Now this is where we need recon from the settler. My understanding is that to efficiently work mined hills, you need some bonus food resource in the same city. Suppose there is no food bonus that can be mated to a city with the two hills. Might we then regret not settling 1N of the settler to get a second hill in our capital (which will have plenty of food)?

If the scout finds a food resorce that can support the two hills in a second city, then settling in place is no problem. So which direction do we want to look? NE, or NW?

Let's gaze into the fog and see just how much or little land we have to work with. The tile north of the hill spice appears to be water. 2N 1W of the scout looks to me like water as well (with a spec of land in the SE corner). 2N of the scout could be forest or water to my eye. 2N 1E of the scout looks like forest (trees across the entire side). 2 NE of the scout could be forest or water. Everything in the eastern fog looks like water, except perhaps 1E of the three-hammer hill.

So we might find that the land we see at the start is all the land that we have! In that case, do we squeeze two cities into the island (then we settle in place, and 2nd either between the hills or 1N of that if there is land), or do we make one best city here and build a galley (and what is that one best city)?

This brings us back to which way to start with the scout. For a while, before I realized that the one spice was on a hill, I contemplated settling 1N 2E to get both hills, fed by farmed flood plains. But with hill under the spice, I think that move is off the table, unless we found two or three seafood off the east coast. So I like the 1 E, 1NE to hill with the scout, as that answers the east coast food question, and a lot of the "are we on a tiny island" question.

If that scout move finds food for the hills, or finds that we are short of land (and if settling in place is clearly the choice for two cities on this island), we can settle in place. If the issues are still iffy, we can move the settler 1N (which ends his move). Then the scout can make a second move, either N or NW of the three hammer hill, or SW-NW to the other hill to finish recon. Then from the forest 1N of start, the settler can found in the forest or back on the flood plain on turn 2 (or turn 1 if you start counting at 0, which the HOF mod does as default [but we can set start to 1]).

And if there is a treasure in the eastern sea (known on first scout move), then 1N 2E founding may be back on the table.

Of course, final decisions will await what we see. But I think this pretty much exhaustively covers the likely scenarios, so we can go in with some pretty good contingency plans.

dV

As far as the opening moves go, since it seems our settler will be headed north, couldn't he move 1E first before heading accross the river? I believe going E then NW will take the same number of moves as just going N or NE and it would reveal the tile 2E of the settlers' current position.

Also, for all of us newbies, what is the best way to post screen shots? Do I need to get a photobucket account or something?
Yes, if we decide to have the settler end 1N, he can get there by E - NW in one turn. Good pickup!

Since we might decide to settle in place depending on what the scout finds, I think we still finish the scout moves before starting any settler moves (forgive me for stating the obvious).

Under the location for typing your reply (and under the post icons) there is a button "manage attachments" that takes you to an attachment upload window. That works within file size and attachment per person limits. For high volume of attachments, photobucket may work better. My Spyware doctor was complaining about something on imageshack (but not photobucket), in case you worry about such things.

dV

hello all, Confusion signing in.

I made a 10 test games: 18 players, standard map. 5 of the test were pangea 5 were continents. I was looking to see where will our closest oponent be and i calculated the averages. The pangea showed that between the closet oponet and us were 5,4 tiles (but there was one extreme were only 3 tiles separated us) and on the continents the average was 6. The bigest distance was 7 tiles. But again this is a custom map so we can expect anything.

About this start: we should definetly go for the sites with higher production because we will need production for the wars that will come and will be needed.


Im GMT+1 and im active at nigh, so you can expect my posts at this time

Edit: Ghaaa!. I just saw that the landform is archipelago so you can scrap my tests.

@Dv and All
Here is a link to an article describing how to get into a Permenant Alliance.
Not all info is relevant to our situation, but well written.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158675

The reason I believe a PA will be key to this game? If it's available, the AI's will do it! What does this mean? Once any 2 civs sign a PA, they immediately share almost everything, the exception being resources. But they will also immediately gift excess resources to their partner if available. So now they share all techs and wonder effects, and probably resources as well. As the old saying goes, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Once 2 AI's have signed a PA, they are obviously going to be strong and teching like crazy. So we would want to get into a PA earlier rather than later, if given the choice. Also, earlier will give more choices as to who we get as a partner.:scan:
If we work backwards from this goal, 2 obvious choices occur first. Which victory type are we going to pursue? The part that is not obvious, which one will give us the best chance for victory. As I said in 1 of the PM's I sent, so far, I have kinda sucked at fast spacerace victories. The earliest one happened to be a randomly generated epic game, standard size map, with you guessed it Peter as the leader, 1936 was the date. The map was mostly 1 continent and only 6 rivals. This would not be a very good finish by SGOTM standards. I have achieved exactly 2 diplomatic victories, but 1 of them was an emperor level game with Bizmark as the leader, in 1824!! Not quite sure how I pulled that one off. My only emperor level win!
Do we need to decide which victory to pursue early on? My gut feeling says yes, but I'm sure my diplo win above was an accident, sort of. I built the UN so I'd be in the vote, the fact that others voted for me was the accidental part.:eek:
I think early on, our main goal should be quick expansion. This will be a crowded map as we've already discussed. Sufficient military and techs to protect the new empire, and try not to upset very many neighbors at the outset. Exploration will be key also, the more civs we know, the faster we research, and more trading opportunities.
A word about Religions! I am not in favor of trying to found any of the early ones, and don't think we should use one early for any reason. Why? Religions make people mad, especially with the aggressive AI trait. We wont know who we will want as our PA for at least a little while, so better not to make enemies early. Lets call this early strategy 1.
Early strategy 2 could go something like this. Try to found and convert as many neighbors as possible. The problem I see with this approach, we don't start with mysticism, and with so many civs in the game, I think the religions will end up widely dispersed anyway. I doubt if any one civ will found more than 2, and it's possible that no one will get more than 1.
Another strategy could involve some serious warmongering early on followed by a late push for diplomacy or spaceship. Not sure if this would be possible or not, but might be fun to try!:lol:
The main thing now is that we have a few days to discuss all the options that people come up with, and it all may go out the window once our scout starts moving around. The only thing I really hope is that real map is better suited than the "FBGTest" start that I downloaded. I was only able to get 4 cities built and capture 1 barb and 1 from the Inca's after they declared on me. I played to about 1150AD and this is how it looked at that point. http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143080&stc=1&d=1164499817
As team CFR showed last game though, there are ways to succeed in any situation.

Hi All,

This will address Ronnie1's description of permanent alliances above. Scout214 and I often play unbalanced team games, in which he and I are a team, and 3 or 4 AI are a team. We always beat 3 on noble, have just been able to beat 4 on noble, and just beat 3 on prince.

Here is what happens: We can both reseach the same tech, and cut the research time almost in half (AI's get to have all 3 or 4 on the same tech!). If we research different techs, we automatically get the benefits of each other's techs. If I build Stonehenge, he gets obelisks in all cities too. Resource benefits are the only thing not shared.

These games are hard because there is almost no opportunity to trade with the other team. Concessions in peace negotiations are about all you can get.

Now the interesting thing of this is that you win as a team. So in SGOTM 3, if there are PA's, do they win as a team? If we become part of a PA, do we win as a team with our AI partner(s).

And how many can be in an alliance? Could it become 9 vs 9, just two teams? :eek: I have some reading to do!

dV

@DV and All,
Only 2 civs per team/alliance in this contest. Once they are established, it is locked in unless 1 of the civs is killed off(not likely). The hard part will be getting the partner that will help you the most. PA's are not available until communism, but the ground work must be in place before then for it to be an early option. Defensive pacts and shared wars are the 2 main factors besides just being on friendly terms with the target civ. It is a huge late game factor, but the early game will ultimately determine the outcome, which civs you attack, trade with, share religion with, and who those civs attack, trade and share with, will determine whether we are admired and trusted, or hated and despised. If diplomacy is the goal, careful attention must be paid, not only to who you say "no" to, but also who you say "yes" to! For these reasons, diplomacy is probably going to be very difficult with this many personalities in the game.
If spaceship is the goal, all you would really be looking for in a PA is a civ with the most cities. More cities = more research = more production etc...
Those civs are pretty easy to identify by mid game, they will be at the top of the graphs, and their curves would be gaining momentum by then. Hopefully we would not have done anything to upset them tremendously by that point!

Hi All,

Ronnie1 posted his screenshot of the "FBGTest" map which is the Culdeus test map I have also played. In this and the next post I am going to describe my game with this to 1559 as I have learned a lot about clawing your way back in Monarch from this game.

Doing this with serial edits so pardon the "under construction". First will upload the screenshots, then the text.

Will post details about each game phase later, but overall:

1. This is almost the worst case scenaro minimal land start that I raised in the "lay of the land" post. Would a second city in the two hills NE of Moscow have made sense? Would Moscow have been better settled 1N?

2. Jungle in the rest of the land made initial progress slow. Expect this on this tropical map.

3. On Ronnie1's screenshot, he is building two wonders. I tried for Oracle and Colossus, got beat to both. We don't have a leader with a wonder bonus, so can we ever win the wonders race? I have none, and doing OK at the end.

Interesting that our founding city placements are virtually identical !!

4. Several cities have low production. I've done a lot of pop rushing to compensate. That makes score lower (less pop), so perhaps score underestimates our position for this reason.

5. Caught up in tech by beelining to Mil Trad (Cossacks) after enabling Caste System (code of laws) to spam scientists. This gave me tradable techs with AI. I used to hate to do asymetric trades (I get less in the deal), but now I figure that a) if you don't trade it for something, soon you'll get nothing for it, and b) if I trade it asymetrically 3 or 4 times, I come out ahead.

6. Cash trades to backward nations. When I needed an infusion of cash, I would find a backward nation with 200 or more gold, and give them an old tech for cash (they almost always throw in world map). Used cash for upgrades and keeping science slider high.

7. Pacificsm civic! Never used this before, but with a small army, the +100% GP rate was quite the boost! Have Moscow now pumping 40 GP points /turn. National epic is in Moscow for +100% GP points. Moscow has academy, 2 sci superspec, about 4 scientists, producing about 100 flasks.

(Still in progress: spoiler notes about each maps game phase)

Abour the 460 BC map: Dead last among those I have met. Started out warrior and fishing, then 3790 got fishing and went to workboat, archery (warrior on hold). Sorry, forgot to log rest of unit builds.
Techs discovered: Fishing 3790; Archery 3460; BW 2920; AH 2470; Myst 2230; IW 1330; Sail 985; Wheel 880; Pottery 745; Writing 595;
Religions founded elsewhere: Bud 3760; Hind 2950; Jud 1600 Conf 480
Wonders elsewhere: Henge 1480; Oracle 865; G Light 745; Mids 520
My next cities: St Pete 2140; Novgorod 775
GP elsewhere: Imhotep in 535 in Egypt (Hatty built Henge)
3730 met Monte. 3220 met Hatty. About the 1559 map:

I am now within 50 points of the leader. I am two techs ahead of Cyrus (Mil Trad and Print Press), four ahead of Khan (add Liberal and Econ), two ahead of Isabella (Nat'ism, Econ ... I guess that means I am ahead by Mil Trad too since Nat is a pre-req), one behind Capac (Rep Parts), two ahead of Caesar (MT, PP), even with Gandhi, four ahead of Hatty (same as Khan), one ahead of Mansa (Liberal), and five or more ahead of the rest)

With the science slider at 0, Moscow still makes 38 flasks, makes 114 at 60%. Big boost coming when I switch to representation. Have 40 GP points per turn there as well.
See next post for long range plans.

dV

Hi all,

Needed a second post for the rest of the screenshots, so here it is.

Posting in the Advisors at 1559:

Just got capability to go to representation, so that is coming next.

Going for steel and cannons, then communism (the PA issue)

Pretty friendly relations, considering "cranky AI". I think that the asymetric trades improve relations, as they are kind of gifts. When I turn down a tribute demand, I often turn around and make some trade or small gift ... maybe that helps too?

I plan on rolling up Monte as fast as possible, then put F Palace up there (and courthouses). Early railroads to connect up the long snake for defense of the "double empire". Find a good PA. Then I'll try a space variant and a diplo variant and see how it goes.

Debating more offense, as I do want to be in control of aluminum for the space race.

Biggest lesson is perhaps to expect to be "behind" early, don't get discouraged, and there are ways to catch up. Since I can still count my Monarch games on one hand, this is a welcome discovery for me.

dV

DV makes some really great points. About the wonder builds, sometimes I'll put some turns into wonders just for the cash. If there aren't alot of build options, or if I'm waiting for a tech for the next build etc... Also, some wonders seem to get ignored by the AI's for some reason. I started this test game with idea of seeing how best to control diplomacy with all the civs in play, and to see how much land I could grab. I've never had everyone on the map before. HC declared on me very early, I think because I wouldn't let him sail past to found cities. I was trying maintain at least a small circle of control around Moscow. I notice 1 glaring difference between DV's game and mine, almost all the civs in his game share 1 religion, that would make diplomacy much easier I think, as it is the single greatest modifier, outside of declaring war I believe. All those civs with the same religion should like each other, that increases world wide trade, an increase in science world wide etc...that would seem to speed up the game pace I believe. Did that happen accidentally, or were people spamming out missionaries?

Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue?

A few thoughs for the discussion:


Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue?

It seems to me it will be faster to build the UN than to have to build all of the spaceship parts. Most of my previous diplomacy has been handled by macemen, so I don't have a ton of diplomatic experience. The hardest part of this that I see is keeping track of 17 other civs' relations at all times so that when you get those demands for tech or to declare war, you know who to appease and who to tell No. I will keep playing my test game later to see if this is as big of an issue as I think it will be.

In the early game, I don't see why we have to decide a victory condition now. A good city for a spaceship victory will be a good city for a diplomatic victory. Early technologies needed for a diplo win will be needed for a space win as well.

As far as wonders go, if we want to prioratize a couple, running engineer specialists (we are philo) to generate a great engineer or two could give us wonders in hammer poor cities.

About the wonder builds, sometimes I'll put some turns into wonders just for the cash. If there aren't alot of build options, or if I'm waiting for a tech for the next build etc... I read a tactic where some players pre-build military, let the prebuilds (1 away from finish) stack up in the city until they get civics that add experience, then pump the prebuilds out one per turn, highly promoted. An interesting way to save troop costs, and to leverage civics. An alternative use for surplus production perhaps ...

I notice 1 glaring difference between DV's game and mine, almost all the civs in his game share 1 religion, that would make diplomacy much easier I think, as it is the single greatest modifier, outside of declaring war I believe. All those civs with the same religion should like each other, that increases world wide trade, an increase in science world wide etc...that would seem to speed up the game pace I believe. Did that happen accidentally, or were people spamming out missionaries? I can only say that when Conf came to me, it was already that popular, so converting was a clear choice. Yes, I am sure that it made my comeback much easier, and might not be the usual case.

Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue? Any reason why we couldn't start aiming for diplo, with space as the fallback? With so many civs, no one will command huge voting blocks in the UN based on own territory (unless we war like hell and ally with the biggest), so the Dip vic will require great relations.

Space always seems to be the AI's back door to victory when I am kicking ass militarily, so it is important to be able to beat them to that if there is no other way (the sword) to stop them.

I have edited in the early game events in my test game (see lessons 1 above), which illustrates when AI was getting to wonders. Mids came late, do we want to go for it? Also, introduces discussion of research order. Archery early or not? Pottery early (we do get cheap granieries)? How fast to writing and alphabet? Skip mysticism?

dV

Hi all,

Sorry for the late check-in, busy RL in the last (and next) few days. Catching up with the reading today, and I have to say this is a real upgrade from GK’s SGOTM2 pre-game discussions. I regret not being able to play the test saves, thanks to dV & R1 for doing that. Also, kudos to Ronnie1 for bringing up the PA issue, although I have nothing more to add about the subject.

Anyway, several PM’s were exchanged between some members of the team before this thread. I may repeat here a few ideas I expressed on them, even though I guess the main issues have already been addressed here. I’ll also add a few thoughts and guesses:
· The closest settings game I played was GOTM8, in the sense it was archipelago/monarch (but 6 opps!). I ended up with a lackluster space race win (1930AD). FYI, fastest space in that game was 1838AD while fastest diplo win was 1460AD. That sure might make one think about which condition could be achieved faster in this game…
· Another thing I recall from that game was that the AI’s were building wonders quite early, probably because they didn’t have much land available to do anything else. In our game (and your test games might have shown this also) the situation might be even worse – 18 civs, many of them industrious…The only wonders I think we might try are the colossus and the great lighthouse, for 2 reasons: they can be very useful in a sea-based map and the AI’s aren’t too good at building them because they have a pre-requisite building (forge and lighthouse, respectively). That said, I have a habit of pursuing Oracle slingshots in my GOTM’s, but I doubt it will be doable this time.
· I am all for moving scout 1E/1NE, posting a screenshot and discussing where to settle with team. If nothing worthwhile shows in the east coast, I am easy either settling in place or 1N (moving 1E 1st as already suggested), but leaning towards the 1N option, and building a warrior, then a fishing boat when available. Tech: fishing followed by BW. The rest will depend on results of early exploration, we’ll have plenty of time to discuss them later.
· Still early to decide, but regarding dV’s last post, I think early pottery (followed by writing, and maybe alphabet if enough civs met early) will be nice. Archery only if no copper/horses nearby. Mysticism (in the path for Oracle) only if no other worker techs needed.
· Regarding pre-built military, it is worthwhile just up to a limited time horizon, because the invested hammers tend to decay fast with time.

Hi All,

I like the idea of shorthand names for the Kings (save a few keystrokes), so I"m happy with dV (or any capitalization variant of that :D). I see R1 has been used for Ronnie1, and C63 seems like a natural for Conquistador 63 (and have I seen that used before?). But I'd rather use members preference (or full name if that is preference), so what do folks think?

Re the last post by Conquistador 63:

I am all for waiting on archery if we can get away with that ... but .... In one test game, I escorted a settler with a warrior, founded St Pete and the warrior defending in the city lost to a barb archer :mad:. I think that the fist barb I saw was an archer. So are you thinking fishing, BW, AH, then if no copper or horse, archery? Unless horse or copper is in the capital, do we still need to wait for an archer to escort the settler, or do we gamble with a warrior?

All of the industrious civs are on the map, and if they also get marble or stone, wonders will be hard to get without great engineers. The option of chasing oracle or GL and/or Colossus would be enhanced, I think by the 1N settling, as we have two hills we can mine early.

Another potential advantage of the 1N settling is the opportunity to work the 1F 2H 1C spice tile at the outset. Or maybe work the 3F 0H 1C FP while we research fishing, then switch to WB and go to the spice for a fast WB. Or do we want to just run max food at the start (production and research will be slower)?

Do we finish the initial warrior before starting the WB, or switch to the WB in the middle? If I have time, I'll run a few trials in the test map and see how that plays.

dV

guys sorry for the low input from me, i've been buisy these days and im very time stresed, i have very litle free time, it should be better in 3-4 days and i will be more active then
cheers

Hi All,
On the research front, I think fishing for sure first if we settle in place and maybe if even if we move. After that, there are so many things to consider. Given our expansive trait and the cheap granaries (they can pop rushed with 2 pop) we should try to get pottery in very early. That will help our growth alot. We start with hunting and mining, if we get fishing first, BW second, we then need either wheel or ag to access pottery. Ag seems to make more sense because it also opens AH, but wheel is cheaper, and if copper is close, horses won't be as needed. It might depend on if we need to start hooking up resources right away. We'll have time to discuss that as we move on. One thing I noticed in the maintenance thread, huts are available off the starting island. We may want to try and get a galley out with our scout aboard and take advantage of that. I know the AI's will get boats out early, especially if they are out of land to settle. The more I think about it, science is probably the key to this game, we'll want to explore all options for maximizing research (not my strong suit), so keep the ideas coming! I know all of Peter's traits will help with this, fast pop growth, cheap harbors for trade on a water map, and cheap universities. It seems we should try to use all of those as much and as soon as possible. Then the only problem is dealing with the swords that show up at the back door.:D

Have you guys noticed the updated starting screenshot? There are blue circles in place (no wonder!) and 2 NE of settler! Also the water tiles in the fog borders seems clearer (at least to me), as the forest row 2N of the scout.

I know there is a never-ending debate about the usefulness of the blue circles, but I still think they add interesting information, and from a few tests in worldbuilder, I believe they take into account resources you can't see because you don't have the tech.

Also, I managed to play the test game yesterday, until ~500BC I guess. Too bad I don't have screenies to post. Btw I settled 1N, worked 1 clam, 1 mine and cottaged the 2 FP and my pop still grew faster than I could whip. Of course the NW spice was not on a hill in that save, so in real game situation can be better.

Good news is that you can get a lot of fair tech trades, if you meet enough civs early (exploring fishing boat and galley). I was dead last (among some 10 civs) until Alpha, then in a couple of turns got some 8/9 techs up to Math and IW, still not giving away Alpha itself (I had to give CoL, which I had researched earlier, though), and suddenly I was leading in tech. The only tech I couldn't get from trade was OR.

Bad news is that the wonder race will be hard, with the limited hammers, we have a penalty for poprushing them.

Suggested techs after fishing and BW: wheel (pre-req for pottery, the other is agri or fishing, which we will already have), pottery, sailing, writing. Then we can go the religious path for Oracle (cheap techs that have a nice value for trade with AI after Alpha anyway if we fail to get it), inserting CoL if we feel like, then Alpha.

Sorry, my bad on the ag or wheel. It also looks like we'll need to update our HOF version to .009.

Hi all,

How does one get into worldbuilder?

Seems like a clear plan is emerging ... Re the tech path, if no copper in sight, AH gets added? or Archery?

Blue circles ... sometimes I have no idea what the CPU is thinking, as it often puts them in places that secure fewer resources. Maybe being on a hill has a bonus in the CPU's mind (for defense).

In any event, what must be out east for the second blue circle to be located with none of the visible resources?

If there is a lot of food on the east coast, making a good city site NE, then do we want the NE to be the capital, or the "in place" (or 1 N) to be the capital?

dV

@DV, ctrl+w to enter worldbuilder.
I still think we just wait and see what is really available (in the east), and then decide on city locations.

The upper right icon which you can use for exiting, saving, loading etc, also has in its list a "enter worldbuilder" option.

The test I was referring to was simply to generate a random start map, then use the above described option and voila, all the world is yours for viewing. You can do this at any point in the game (of course, not official games!!!). I have generated a few starts with the current sgotm settings to get a rough feeling about what the real game might look like. In one of them, the settler had 2 blue circles, one at its starting location with some bonus resources, other a few tiles north for no apparent reason. Entered WB and there were horses and copper next to the 2nd blue circle. Hmmm...

@All, AlanH has made an open request to all vanilla teams about taking on an additional player. There are a number of teams that only have 6 active and we currently have 7. I get the feeling from the pre-game discussion that we are all committed to seeing this through, but that doesn't mean we couldn't take on 1 more, there are some 8 member teams. Looking for feedback!!

I don't see how another member could hurt. Bring on another gypsy!

I have no problem adding a new member.

I think that AlanH wants teams to be 6 to 8 members, higher numbers if more members are first timers to SGOTM (who apparently have higher attrition rates). So he may offer the extra players to the size 6 teams first.

Is everyone OK with the HOF.009 mod? There is an option for setting the first turn to be called turn 1 (otherwise, the default is first turn = turn 0). Seems like we should all agree to use the same setting, so do we prefer first = 0 or first = 1? I have a mild preference for first = 1 but am happy to do either.

Also, is everyone familar with the autolog, and how to set the recording style (text, html or forum)? If you plan to post parts of the autolog as turn reports, then using forum tags probably is best (I think that is default).

The SGOTM reference thread talked about the staff appointing an initial team coordinator (I suppose you know who you are, I'm guessing it was Ronnie1), then the team selecting a captain. Have we made that latter decision (have I missed it)? I think is it natural that is be one of the returnig Gypsy Kings from SGOTM 2, if not already decided.

Probably time to start thinking about the play lineup. My one suggestion here would be that since Scout214 and I are still unproven at monarch level, perhaps not putting us back to back is a good idea. For the start, I'm happy to let the veterans get the Russian bear out of hibernation!

Thanks for the info on worldbuilder. I was trying to get into it on the culdeus map to fix the spice hill, but apparently WB was locked out on that. The button in options did not appear. I could get in either way on a game that I started.

Also, don't mind my rhetorical questions (for example, the ones that we will answer after we move the scout). I like to put the question on the table (before I forget it), even though the answer will wait. ;)

dV

@All,
I kind of took the lead at the end of the last game after the previous 2 leaders lost interest. However, I am not attached to being the leader if someone else would like to be. For the purpose of discussion, leader/captain is basically the same role in my opinion. There was not really a captain for us last game that made any ultimate decisions or anything like that. Everyone gets to express their ideas about how to proceed during the game. I do feel that some sort of a consensus should be reached on some of the major decisions, ie: research path, city placement, strategic planning, wonder builds, declaring war, etc. But if an AI declares on you during your turnset, just fight like hell! :lol: The main role of the leader is to keep up interest in the game and update the roster order after each turnset has been played.
The 1 general rule is that the next player in line has 24 hours to post a "got it" message, so we know the save has been picked up, and then play your turnset within 48 hours and upload the new save. If there are serious issues that arise in the middle of your turnset, you can upload a save of the situation and ask for opinions on how to proceed. Ultimately, each player will play the turnset they are dealt and then we move on.

I have no opinion on the number for the first turn , but we should all do it the same way.

I do have a question about the autolog text file, how do you extract it? I know that a text file is created automatically every time the save file is uploaded to the forum site, but is there a way to extract it any time you want it?

As far as the roster order goes, haven't even thought about it yet. Does anyone have any commitments that need to be considered for the first couple of weeks? If someone has a consideration that affects when they can play at any time, just make a request to change postions with someone else for a turn, or just skip yours if you must. There will be plenty of turns to go around.:D

I kind of took the lead at the end of the last game after the previous 2 leaders lost interest. However, I am not attached to being the leader if someone else would like to be. For the purpose of discussion, leader/captain is basically the same role in my opinion. There was not really a captain for us last game that made any ultimate decisions or anything like that. I thought that you did a great job managing the logistics at the end of SGOTM 2 (based on what I read in the thread) so I'd be happy to see you continue in that role if you are willing. I think that AlanH wants to have at least a designated spokesman/point of contact for each team, even if not as autocratic as a "captain".

Regarding consultations within a turnset, do you think that posting a save or posting some screenshots is the better way to go? It is important that only the designated player make any moves in the turnset, so screenshots are less risky. If we do post a save, by "post" I assume you mean someting different than uploading to the SGOTM site (which should only be done with the end of turnset save, right?).
I have no opinion on the number for the first turn , but we should all do it the same way. I suspect most teams will use the default first turn = 0, so if we do that it will be consistent with the other teams.
I do have a question about the autolog text file, how do you extract it? I know that a text file is created automatically every time the save file is uploaded to the forum site, but is there a way to extract it any time you want it? The autolog in HOF mod creates a file that has nothing to do with uploads to the server. Anytime you play in an HOF mod, it generates an autolog on your C drive. On my computer, it is in MyDocuments/My Games/Sid Meier's Civilization 4/AutoLog/autolog.txt. Default file is autolog.txt. The mod will append all games to this file if you never specify a new name (can do this in options). If you do make new names the default will be the last used file name.

If you have ever played an HOF game, then you should have autologs. If not, you can go to GOTM 12 pregame thread, load Svelte's test map (or Jar Jar Binks' test map for GOTM 13 I suppose), play a few turns and that will generate a log you can look at to get the idea.

You can set how much or little to log in the options menu. I think that alt+e or ctrl+e will open the log during play so you can manually add to it (for example, .008 did not log declarations of war) ... I'll check and edit in the correct keys.

edit: alt+e is supposed to open the autolog for manual additions.

Less than 24 hours until the cosmonaut Anastasi "launch" :goodjob: Go G:king:

dV

@Dv and All,

Regarding consultations within a turnset, do you think that posting a save or posting some screenshots is the better way to go? It is important that only the designated player make any moves in the turnset, so screenshots are less risky. If we do post a save, by "post" I assume you mean someting different than uploading to the SGOTM site (which should only be done with the end of turnset save, right?).

Uploading only the screenshot is safer in all respects. But you can't always get all of the necessary info into a screenshot. You can upload a save at any point, and all team members can download any save at any time. To be very clear, only the person playing "that" turnset can make any moves, negotiations, etc. However, in my understanding, you are allowed to see if rival civs are willing to trade by opening the appropriate diplomacy screen. Just be very careful that you don't break any rules by accident. If you have any question, I would say wait and send a PM to AlanH to ask for specific clarification. I am going to send a copy of this post to Alan and see if he would like to add anything.

Regarding consultations within a turnset, do you think that posting a save or posting some screenshots is the better way to go? It is important that only the designated player make any moves in the turnset, so screenshots are less risky. If we do post a save, by "post" I assume you mean someting different than uploading to the SGOTM site (which should only be done with the end of turnset save, right?).
You can upload to the server at any time, and I would recommend that as the preferred way to do it if you want the other players to look at the save. If you post a save directly to the thread you run a greater risk that someone will find it and try to play forward from it.

Uploading only the screenshot is safer in all respects. But you can't always get all of the necessary info into a screenshot.
True. Just be aware of the danger of looking at someone else's save in mid-turnset and making an irreversible move or change. That's a :nono:.

You can upload a save at any point, and all team members can download any save at any time. To be very clear, only the person playing "that" turnset can make any moves, negotiations, etc. However, in my understanding, you are allowed to see if rival civs are willing to trade by opening the appropriate diplomacy screen. Just be very careful that you don't break any rules by accident.
That's correct. The rule is - look, but don't touch. Don't do anything that would be irreversible if you were playing the set. No deals. No declarations. No fights. No unit moves .....
If you have any question, I would say wait and send a PM to AlanH to ask for specific clarification. I am going to send a copy of this post to Alan and see if he would like to add anything.By all means, but you should be able to use your common sense. Just remember, the objective is that you as a team play every move and turn as a new adventure. No move or deal should have been tried before by any team member.

You can upload to the server at any time, and I would recommend that as the preferred way to do it if you want the other players to look at the save. If you post a save directly to the thread you run a greater risk that someone will find it and try to play forward from it. Interesting ... my thought was that a save uploaded to the server would be more likely to be mistaken for a turnset handoff, and a save posted in the thread would clearly not be a turnset handoff. But per AlanH's instruction, we'll use the server to upload any intra turnset saves that we need to discuss. Maybe an upload to the server before a turnset is completed has some safeguards built in?

This is the allowed/disallowed exploits and strategy thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152399

There are two allowed items here that we might want to use if we want to be competitive with the other teams. Any members already familiar with and using these two allowed exploits?

dV

@All,
Could everyone please check in with a quick I'm here post. The start file will be available in a few hours and I'm getting ready to put the roster order together. Thanks

At my post :scan: :ninja: :sniper:

BTW, per ainwood the pop rushing exploit is fixed in the HOF mod, so the one available exploit is the chop settler/worker exploit. Gist appears to be that if you switch to settler/worker just when the chop hammers come it, then switch back and chop again, you can build the settler/worker just with chop hammers (almost), and keep pop growth and other production between the chop harvests. Might be worth a try!

@Ronnie1: from my perspective, you might as well take the first turnset, move the scout and post a screenshot (can't see a need to post the save so early) for us to discuss.

We should definitely set 4000 BC = turn 0, as there is a display on the progress and results page that is set up that way, and we might as well be consistent with that.

Tick tock tick tock ... Blast Off! :goodjob: Go G:king:

dV

@All,
Nobody has to tell me twice! dV said go so here it is. There is definitely more to discuss.:D

Roster order is as follows, I split the new guys and the old guys for balance, and kind of went by most recent posts.

Ronnie1 - up now
da_Vinci - on deck
Coquistador63 - in the hole
Joemama - waiting
Igelkott - waiting
Confusion - waiting
Scout214 - waiting the most

@All,
Nobody has to tell me twice! dV said go so here it is. You give me too much power! :eek:

I think we have to put a city on the hill where the scout stands now. We'll get 11 food from the fish and clams after lighthouse, which can feed the many production tiles. Stone suddenly puts some wonders back on the table. With a city on that hill, and one where the settler is now, there is only a two tile overlap of the fat crosses if I am seeing right. The city where settler is has mega food potential, so a GP farm and scientist haven?

Question is, which one should be the capital? If we settle first on the hill, we get 2 hammers from the city tile (2/2/1). Playing that out on the culdeus test map, by 3220 I have Fishing, 1 warrior built (he finishes before fishing is done), BW due in 6 turns, WB just done and fishing the (well, it's clams on the culdeus map but it would be the fish on ours), pop is 2 with next due in 11 (on the clams, sooner on the fish).

If I settle in place and pursue the same goals, I get by 3220 WB due in 3, BW due in 3, pop is 3 with next due in 12 (this will shorten after WB goes to work), and still 8 turns away from finishing the warrior.

Seems to me that the extra hammer in the city is helpful and overcomes the time delay of moving to settle. So I am inclined to found Moscow on the hill, warrior while getting fishing, workboat while researching BW, with an eye to settling the original settler start fairly soon as a GP farm and a worker/settler farm. The high production capital can make the WB for the farm, and we can chop and whip other production in that city. Make it a science city.

Of course, we have some time to settle the original settler start, so the second city might go north of Moscow depending on resources, neighbors, etc.

Unless we really want the capital to be where all the food is, and use bureaucacy to boost the science output.

If we move the settler 1 NE, then the scout NW (1N, 1NW), we'll have some sense of that NW coast before committing the settler.

A note on fog gazing: I use a laptop, and usually the screen has the top slightly angled away from me. but if I angle the top slightly towards me, I see more detail at the edges of the fog. I assume that this might also apply to flat panel screens on desktops, but not to CRTs. So for laptop or flat panel, try shifting your viewing angle a bit.

Update edit: I see that CFR-W has completed their first 30 turns and are at a score of 65. CFR-V uploaded after 1 turn (to discuss) and are at score of 13 (so we are tied for first !! :lol: ) Have we decided on number of turns per turnset in the early game?

Also, since first turn will be turn 0, I would suggest that Ronnie1 play 10x + 1 turns to start, so our saves will thereafter have a multiple of 10 as the turn number. The CFR-W save after 30 turns says 3130 29 turns. The progress chart is showing tick marks at 3100 and 30 turns, so adding one turn to the first set seems to be a better fit to the chart (which is set up for first turn = turn 0)

Just to be clear, we save and upload before we hit end turn of our last turn, or after we hit end turn but before doing anything on the now open next turn? My guess is that is is the former. I am checking with AlanH about any rules regarding these last three issues.

dV

A few thoughts:

I think our capital one south of the stone is a great move. I would move the settler E, then NE to head towards the hill site. Along with being a great spot, it also follows the general rule to expand towards the AI. We should be able to plot a city down at the original settler start position at our leisure.

Did anyone else think pyramids when they saw that stone? Since our cities have plenty of food and health, happiness will be the limiting factor on their size. Representation would give happiness as well as boosting the power of specialists. Running specalists is also very conducive to our philosophical trait.

I think for the short term, our tech order should stay at fishing and brozeworking. After that we will have a big decision that will depend alot on what we find during those turns. One of the many options at that point would be to go for masonry, wheel and pyramids.


I am looking forward to seeing what kind of land/neighbors our scout discovers to the north.

Joe

Update edit: I see that CFR-W has completed their first 30 turns and are at a score of 65. CFR-V uploaded after 1 turn (to discuss) and are at score of 13 (so we are tied for first !! :lol: ) Have we decided on number of turns per turnset in the early game?

Also, since first turn will be turn 0, I would suggest that Ronnie1 play 10x + 1 turns to start, so our saves will thereafter have a multiple of 10 as the turn number. The CFR-W save after 30 turns says 3130 29 turns. The progress chart is showing tick marks at 3100 and 30 turns, so adding one turn to the first set seems to be a better fit to the chart (which is set up for first turn = turn 0)

Just to be clear, we save and upload before we hit end turn of our last turn, or after we hit end turn but before doing anything on the now open next turn? My guess is that is is the former. I am checking with AlanH about any rules regarding these last three issues.

dV
None of this is subject to rules, only standards of behaviour that have evolved over many years of SG playing.

There are no rules about how many turns you play in each set. A typical pattern is 20 for the first set, then 10 per set, maybe reducing to 5 in times of extreme warring, but you may upload saves at any time after 4000 BC.

I suggest you think in terms of turns played rather than turn number. At 4000 BC the turns played are zero. If the first player hits 'Next turn' 20 times you will be at turn 20. you will save at end of turn 20, and you will have played 21 turns if you include turn 0. If the next player then hits 'Next turn' 10 times you will have reached turn 30, and so on. If you count the number of times you hit 'Next turn' you get to round turn numbers that line up with the tick marks on the graph, if that's important to you.

Normal SG etiquette is stated in the Reference thread. You should normally play all unit moves during the last turn of your set, and save the game with no units on 'go to' orders. Units that are likely to be on active duty next turn(particularly workers and settlers ) should not be left fortified.

You should agree as a team what you intend to do about diplo activity during the last turn of a set. Historically, in Civ3 SGs, last-turn deals have usually been left to the next player.

But the above is all guidance. As I said, it's all up to you.

Hi all,

I've been away for a few days, but just caught up with the reading. I haven't tested with the new info, but I agree on settling on the 3rd turn (er, turn 2 ;)) on current scout position. Just to be careful, settler 1E then 1 NE en route to the promised land. :)

On turn etiquette, I am with AlanH. On previous game usually we played a turn to the end but did not hit end of turn. But when I picked up the save, if it seemed fit to me, I could go MM and change production or worked tiles in cities. General rule could be 20 turns at first, but say I'm on my 18th turn and an opportunity to steal a worker (and start a war ;) ) arises: of course I'd save right there and pass the turn to next player (with the proper discussion inbetween) to continue.

Go Ronnie1 Go! :run:

I've been away for a few days, but just caught up with the reading. I haven't tested with the new info, but I agree on settling on the 3rd turn (er, turn 2 ;)) on current scout position. Just to be careful, settler 1E then 1 NE en route to the promised land. :)

On turn etiquette, I am with AlanH. On previous game usually we played a turn to the end but did not hit end of turn. But when I picked up the save, if it seemed fit to me, I could go MM and change production or worked tiles in cities. General rule could be 20 turns at first, but say I'm on my 18th turn and an opportunity to steal a worker (and start a war ;) ) arises: of course I'd save right there and pass the turn to next player (with the proper discussion inbetween) to continue.Uploading a completed turn that is still modifiable (end turn not hit yet) makes sense for every reason I can think of (including that new player gets to see the enemy moves in the inter-turn). Just wanted to be sure we were all on the same page.

The reason that I suggested settler 1 NE was that he gets to hill at the same rate, but 1 NE leaves us with the option of settling at original start on turn 2 (completed turn counter will read 1 :D ) if, for some reason that I cannot at present comprehend, we would decide to do that.

What makes 1E, 1 NE more "careful"? Animals this early??? :eek:

@Joemama: Yes, pyramids did come to mind. Can we both pop rush and chop rush pyramids?

@AlanH: if you are still lurking, thanks for the info. :goodjob: I love seeing the "behaviour" (vs. the American "behavior")... so Britishly sophisticated, don't you know! Speaking of which, how would YOU have spelled G_psy? :D

dV

@AlanH: if you are still lurking, thanks for the info. :goodjob: I love seeing the "behaviour" (vs. the American "behavior")... so Britishly sophisticated, don't you know! Speaking of which, how would YOU have spelled G_psy? :D

dV
'Gypsy'. But I'm not allowed to comment on people's spelling.:p

@All,
It looks like we are in favor of founding Moscow in the southern Urals. My concern about that would be the amount of jungle that appears to be in the fat cross early. Although, I suppose we will hit the happy limit before that comes into play. The coastal site will surely be a science city and a settler/worker powerhouse. I'm going to wait to hear from some of the others, and probably play tomorrow PM (GMT-8). Lets go with the 20 turns to start and then probably 10, but as C63 said somtimes natural break points occur that don't necessarily land on a round number.
Are the rest of the Gypsy Kings present somewhere?

Like Ronnie I prefer early expansion. In playing a few Monarch games, it seems to me that it is better to go after no religion. Then we can 'meekly' accept conversion when AI's demand it, to keep them happy while we take over the map!

Now that I see what the scout found, my input is to go 1E and then 1NE and put Moscow there. With the first city exapnsion, we'll have both of the 3 food squares to the west and the fish square to the east. We'll also get both hills to the north. We'll need both food and production to grow quickly. Then place the second city to the NW in the area as yet unexplored. We'd have to waqit longer to get the stone for building Pyramids or Stonehenge, though.

I'm more than willing to defer to everyone else, though. Just my two cents.

Although going 1E,1NE poses the loss of some of the resources, I prefer it because it gives us landed food for population growth. My Monarch games so far have featured AI's coming after me by sea. The first thing they do is attack work boats. If Moscow's food supply depends on them, we could be crippled early.

@All,
It looks like we are in favor of founding Moscow in the southern Urals. My concern about that would be the amount of jungle that appears to be in the fat cross early. Although, I suppose we will hit the happy limit before that comes into play. @Ronnie1: I am only seeing two jungle squares in the fat cross, maybe one more in the fog. Lots of jungle north of the fat cross, which may play into whether city 2 is back southwest or moving north.

dV

@ Scout214: the spirit of this game is exactly to allow all players to bring their ideas into the discussion, like in a brainstorm. Keep them coming! :goodjob:
Settling 1N/1NE as you proposed isn't a bad idea at all, it has even been discussed before in this thread. But my guess is that, in a crowded map like this is supposed to be, either we would have a lot of overlap with a 2nd SW city, or we wouldn't be able to work those SW tiles at all.
You're 100% right about the need to protect our coastal resources sooner rather than later, though.

@ da_Vinci: the E-NE move for the settler is only for clearing more coastal SE fog.

@All,
It looks like we are in favor of founding Moscow in the southern Urals. My concern about that would be the amount of jungle that appears to be in the fat cross early. Although, I suppose we will hit the happy limit before that comes into play. The coastal site will surely be a science city and a settler/worker powerhouse. In the culdeus test map I settled Moscow at the original settler start. Made that a science center with library, several scientist specialists, a couple of scientist superspecialists, an academy. Pure 100% scientist GP points. My thought is that a second or third city should go there with that aim. That site is hammer poor, so feeding specialists seems the natural for that terrain. Being food rich, that site can also eventually pump out workers and settlers quickly, leaving the hammers in Moscow-on-the-hill for units and wonders.

If north of Moscow is all jungle, then maybe we would put our second city on the original settler site? If the resources are in the jungle, then we go jungle of course, but if not, then it will be slow going growing a jungle city. I think Ronnie1 and I both found that to be the case with St Pete in jungle on the culdeus map.

I am seeing Moscow-on-the-hill as our early production city (can be something else later) for units, wonders.

Moscow-on-the-hill will be sea-dependent for its food for the early phases of the game. Later, we could irrigate our way to Moscow from the river. So there is vulnerability to raiders. But I think that giving up the benefits of having two well spaced cities that capture all of the visible resources, and a capital with two hammers from the city tile, is a bigger risk to us overall than the risk of transient loss of the workboats during war.

I'm on deck for the second turnset, and I anticipate a few issues coming up that I'd like the group to start thinking about:

A key decision will be whether we go for oracle or pyramids, if we go for wonders at all. With 17 AI, I don't see how we get both. If some industrious civ gets marble, oracle could be tough. If an industrious civ gets stone, same could be said for 'mids. Seems like we would need to have a second city producing defenders in order to commit Moscow to wonder construction. Allthough if we pop rush and chop rush, maybe we pull it off.

If we go oracle, use it for MC as a leg up for Colossus? Or go for a different tech?

Defense of the realm. I had a nasty experience in one short (for this reason :mad:) test game where my second city, defended by a warrior, was taken by a single barb archer. I would like to have something more than a warrior to escort/garrison the settler/second city. So if there is no readily available copper (or if we have to settle second city to get it), do we grab archery (or AH and pray for nearby horses) before settling, or take the warrior risk?

Pop rushing. I could use to learn optimal approaches to this. Are there general rules, such as only pop rush at happiness limit? or Only pop rush if happiness penalty is one turn block (15 turns is minimal unit on Epic, it appears)? Or only pop rush when it costs 1 pop? Any guidance on this would be appreciated.

Chop rushing. I have wondered if there is any logic to "saving" forest to chop on larger production items. I am not sure that makes any sense. If you are making an axeman, and next want to make a wonder, it might seem to be sensible to save forest chops for the wonder. But if hammer oveflow goes to the next item, then it seems you should chop the axeman. You need A + W hammers total to finish the wonder, so start chopping sooner. Am I right, or are there rule nuances that make me wrong?

Answers to several of the "what to do?" questions will be clearer when we see the save at the end of Ronnie1's turn. I want to have a good sense that the team has thought out these early choices, as we will be living (or dying) with the consequences for quite a while.

I have notice that according to the results page, footballguys are playing quite fast (three cycles done). They are also scoring lower than others for a particular time, so I am quite content to be more deliberate about this early process.

Bulletin: just in from agent Tamborine of the GIA (Gypsallia Intelligence Agency). Media accounts indicate that footballguys have a score growth curve that is becoming flatter (just slightly so) with each successive turnset. Review of SGOTM 1 curves show that by about the same time, the eventual winners were begining to steepen their score growth curves. Does this just represent the crowded, watery map? Or have they run across some hazzard lurking out there in the fog ...

dV

Bulletin: just in from agent Tamborine of the GIA (Gypsallia Intelligence Agency). Media accounts indicate that footballguys have a score growth curve that is becoming flatter (just slightly so) with each successive turnset. Review of SGOTM 1 curves show that by about the same time, the eventual winners were begining to steepen their score growth curves. Does this just represent the crowded, watery map? Or have they run across some hazzard lurking out there in the fog ...

dV

Some wild speculation, but I would guess the early spike for trash team indicates they settled in place. The fact they leveled off after that seems to indicate our proposed capital location will pay off soon.

Some wild speculation, but I would guess the early spike for trash team indicates they settled in place. The fact they leveled off after that seems to indicate our proposed capital location will pay off soon. This chart gazing is rather interesting ...

If you display the chart for culture, out to 3400 BC, everyone who has played that far (8 or so total among W and V) are on the same trajectory, except for trash team! Maybe they are the only ones NOT to settle in place (!), or they are the only ones who did not build some addtional cultural item.

It is really hard to tell since we don't have turn by turn data, but a line that connects only two real data points.

Since (as I understand the scoring), population carries huge weight in the scores, their early high score may be a function of not slowing pop growth to build a worker or settler, or of not pop rushing anything. I am curious as to why they are not keeping up in culture.

Looking at power over the same period, there are only two trajectories, with Fifth Element appearing to be taking the lead (hard to know if someone else is hiding behind them ... oh, except I can delete them, and they are alone). More techs? More units? A second city (how by that time??)?

So with equal power and less culture, Trash Team has the highest score at first turnset handoff? Seems to be ... So maybe they did settle in place, and the early max score is due to pop. But with 2 or 3 extra turns of palace culture compared to settling elsewhere, how have they gotten behind in culture?

Culture is very non-differential so far ... has everyone built no culture buildings, or has everyone built similar ones ...

What we can say for sure is that Team One (W) and CFR-V have not settled in place on turn 1. Score of 13 at year 3970. A good reason to upload the scout move as a screenshot, not a save: its is more covert !! ;)

Peanut (W) won SGOTM 1. They have a nice score trajectory, the same culture trajectory as the rest, and a power curve that is flat to start then catches up all at once.

CFR took the silver in 1, the W team is off well, V team is still thinking (like us). Geezers, the bronze in 1, are starting well.

Looking at just the Vanilla teams, Flying Vanillas are out of the gate fast, as is The Real Ms. Beyond. Geezers in striking distance, while footballguys appear to be losing momentum.

It will be intersting to see where Ronnie1's save puts us on the chart, not to mention where we will be when I get done :eek:

dV

Some wild speculation, but I would guess the early spike for trash team indicates they settled in place. The fact they leveled off after that seems to indicate our proposed capital location will pay off soon.

... or simply that they uploaded an earlier save than everyone else :p

Scout214 and I played more of our multiplayer game on the SGOTM 3 settings, each of us playing Peter. We have clawed our way back into the top five in score, and we have eliminated 3 opponents (I took out Cyrus and Monte, he took out Japan). The first PA in the game was made just before we stopped for the night: Frederick with Mansa (Hoo boy! Now life gets interesting).

Frederick was somewhere in the top 3, with Mansa in the top 10, when this happened. I had just set up a defensive pact with Mansa to try to court him into a PA myself, as he is a tech leader and we were friendly (rather by accident, not by my great management of relations). Luckily, Victoria suddenly decided I am her friend, and we just made a defensive pact (maybe a PA to follow?). Does she like me now because she also fears the other alliance (how smart of the AI if yes)?

This has focused my thinking on the implications of such an event: how can I win if two powers ahead of me in tech pool their resources? We are in the mid 1700 as I recall. My only chance is to find a strong ally. Scout214 an I are not going to ally with each other (if that is even possible) except as a last resort, as we want to learn how to do it with the AI.

It did not seem to take long, after PA became available, for AI to pursue them. So I am thinking that this game cannot be won without being able to court a strong ally. Which just confirms what Ronnie1 said earlier.

Ronnie1 gave us a post that discusses these alliances. Below I have copied in the part key to laying the groundwork for one. It is in the context of a one city challence (only ever have your capital, on deity no less :eek: )

Preparing for defensive pacts and permanent alliance
As early in the game as possible, pick one leader, who's borders are not going to be near yours anytime soon (say by 1200ad) and do anything they ask. Yes! for 4 thousand years you get to be their biatch. Aside of agreeing to their demands (even going to war) the main task here is to always monitor which civ they dislike the most - and dont trade with that civ. Definitely never trade with anyone they are at war with. By 1200 or 1300 ad you want them totally happy with you. This will often require that you spend time using their favorite religion and/or favorite civic. As soon as its available, ask them for a defensive pact. If you somehow upset them and there is a red item or two you may need to give them a gift (trade techs with others for a gift they dont have, or sell techs to others for a cash gift. One decent tech or around 800 gold is usually enough to add +2 or more to your relations at this point

The PA stage can be difficult if you've never got a PA before, so to walk through an example:
Lets say you want a PA with Catherine, because you like the way she shakes her hair at you and her lands are far away from yours.
First, from 4000bc do everything she asks you to do. Wars, trades, giving her tech, doesnt matter - just suck it up for now.
Second, from 4000bc always check to see if she's at war before you trade with someone (this hurts relations real bad and I cant find any trick to having it forgiven).
Third, around 500ad start using hereditary rule (her favorite civic)
Fourth, around 500ad, if available, convert to her religion
Obviously monitor your friendliness and adjust the above as required. Be aware that sometimes civs will drop their religion as soon as they get the free religion civic available around this time - so dont rely too much on the religious element of the modifiers.
Fifth, as soon as available get a defensive pact in place (find a gift to bribe with if its red)
Sixth, after 20 turns or so start checking if a PA is available, and plan to have a gift ready for a final bribe just incase its red (once the PA is signed you will both get all the other parties techs, so any tech gift here isn’t being wasted)
If a third party offers you a defensive pact then don’t take it! If someone declares war on them you’ll declare war automatically on that person and break your DP with your target civ, possibly losing relations – in a worst case scenario you could end up at war with your target, which would be er “strategically sub-optimal, Sir”

Assuming you’ve been nice to the target since the start of the game and are at +10-15 relations you’ll find they agree easily to the DP and PA regardless of how weak or technologically backwards you are – as they like you more than anyone else.

So, you now have a PA. Things to note:
1. You can now ask the AI for any of their resources and they will give them to you. (so dont take their only coal and trade it away!)
2. You can see the ai's cities (check out that growth and production!)
3. You can see what the ai is researching and ask them to change it
4. Your research is added together (makes sense to always research the same thing as them for faster times)
5. Your relations with other AI's has just dropped somewhat. They’re all somewhat miffed that you made a PA with someone else.
6. You probably now have access to bronze, iron, coal and maybe oil for the first time. If you have coal and railroads dont forget to railroad your lumbermills at this point.
7. team projects are now gray if one of you is building it (hint: build the pentagon yourself as soon as available, if your pet AI starts it and allocates to some backwater dump of a city it really sucks if they lose that city in a war)
8. The AI will insist on giving you any spare happiness resources they have, even though you don’t need them. If you refuse they will keep asking until you go insane, so you might as well just take them when offered and be done with it.
At some point we will probably want to be starting an ending every turnset with a list that includes our target PA civ(s) and our "do not trade with" list.

@AlanH; you must enjoy being the fly on everyone's wall (is that a British expression too?). Given the omniscience that provides you, perhaps I should say, the god in everyone's temple! :worship: :worship: :lol: We are happy to have you lurking ... as long as you don't spill any beans to ainwood, civ_steve, et al. ;) :D

dV

... or simply that they uploaded an earlier save than everyone else :p A good point. I think not entirely a function of early or late save in isolation though.

Score and power trends often look like step functions (culture seems to be smoother), and we are trying to approximate step functions by sampling them at a few points in time.

So if the early save by Trash Team came just after a score boosting event, it would make the early interval slope high, and the next interval slope smaller. It is very possible that their turn by turn trend looks more like the rest of the other teams, and their high/low appearance is a timing artifact (timing in relation to step-up events).

All of which makes this early tea leaf reading even less reliable than it was to begin with ! :lol:

dV

There obviously wont be a need for the second city site for at least a few years, and normally, on this type of a map, I would look for a good choke point to close down the closest AI. But since the original site will be such a great site as previously discussed, I would lean towards getting it up running asap. Soon we will be able to crank out (:whipped: ) the workers and settlers needed to fill in the surroundings. I learned 1 very important thing from reading the CFR tread from the last game, as Obermot taught team CFR, "whip till your hands bleed" was the quote if I remember right. They were whipping at least once every 15 turns and sometimes more if the cities had enough food to support it. I'll be playing later this afternoon, I have to leave for a couple hours.

Sounds like whipping is like voting: whip early, whip often. :run: :whipped: (:D)

The whipping tradeoff is population reduction, and potentially less commerce for science (lost hammers are less an issue as whipping gives you hammers).

So I assume the idea is to whip at a high population equilibrium, rather than at a low one? Which would mean whipping would wait for some population threshold in a city?

Or maybe not. I could see whipping a second workboat in Moscow, even at a relatively low population.

dV

A good point. I think not entirely a function of early or late save in isolation though.

Score and power trends often look like step functions (culture seems to be smoother), and we are trying to approximate step functions by sampling them at a few points in time.

So if the early save by Trash Team came just after a score boosting event, it would make the early interval slope high, and the next interval slope smaller. It is very possible that their turn by turn trend looks more like the rest of the other teams, and their high/low appearance is a timing artifact (timing in relation to step-up events).

All of which makes this early tea leaf reading even less reliable than it was to begin with ! :lol:

dV
No tea leaf reading required. Score is mainly related to population and territory. By the time most teams have posted their first save they have (1) built a city, (2) grown a pop point or two and )3) maybe expanded. Their scores will then stagnate until the second city is founded, they discover techs, or some other event occurs to boost their score. So as soon as a team builds its first city it gets the main early score boost, regardless of when they post their first save.

hmm, i vote for the NE-NE position for settling, that would bring in the fish and the clams in to the fat cros aslo we will bring hills for our production and one F.plain will be still in our city, but the best thing about this location is that it has lot of forests so we can build pyramids that will enable us reprezentation for early growth and we will get great engeenier (sp?) 40 turns after we build it.

Neg side is that it will not be on the river and that we will spend one turn to settle

Ater exploring the wilderness for 60 years, a group of adventurers settles a city and names it Moscow. :king: Work is immediately started on mighty warriors, to protect this new empire from all who would try to destroy it. At the same time, the wise ones of Moscow turn their attention to the oceans, and begin searching for ways to harvest the bounty that lies within. A few brave souls are sent to further explore the uncharted wilderness, hoping to discover treasure, in all its forms. Many discoveries are made while treking through the vast jungle, beautifully colored crystals, grains for food and health, and beasts that look as though they might be eaten, or used to help work the fertile soil that surrounds them. And vast oceans, everywhere! The brave scouts headed north, and when they are stopped by those seas, they head west, when the seas show up here as well, south is the only direction they can go. Just when it appeared that they might be free of the jungle, the unthinkable befell these poor brave souls. A mighty black panther appeared out of nowhere, and had 'em for lunch! :cry: Now the warriors of Moscow have taken it upon themselves to begin searching for the beasts hoping to avenge those lost to the jungle.
Meanwhile, the wise souls of Moscow have discovered that with proper training, nets can be used to catch the fish in the oceans, and this will help it to grow. Work was started immediately on a boat to undertake the task. And then, to everyones surprise, travelers from the SE appeared on the horizon. They said they represented a man named Alexander, and peace was declared by each of the new neighbors. The empire is founded and we are not alone!;)

The save is here:http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_BC3400_01.Civ4SavedGame

The session turn log is here:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 4000 BC to 3400 BC:


Turn 2, 3940 BC: Moscow has been founded.

Turn 9, 3730 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 10, 3700 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Gypsy Kings's Scout (2.70)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Combat Odds: 21.1%
Turn 12, 3640 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Gypsy Kings's Scout is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Barbarian's Panther has defeated Gypsy Kings's Scout!
Roster order is

Ronnie1 - just played
da_Vinci - up now
Coquistador63 - on deck
Joemama - in the hole
Igelkott - waiting
Confusion - waiting
Scout214 - still waiting

Hi All,

Prince da_Vinci is preparing to take command of the next phase of Gypsalian glory! What we know of our world is summarized in the maps posted below.

The satellite imagery (not bad for 3400 BC eh?! ;) ) shows us a uniquely configured land mass, giving rise to a possible defensive strategy that allows us to bypass archery (at least for now) even if no copper or horse is nearby. It should be possible to fogbust the northern land to the Panamanian isthmus with two warriors. Unforturnately, the square where the settler originally started appears to be in fog as well, so a third warrior is required to fogbust in the SW. This would suppress barbarian activity and eliminate the risk of barb archers overwhelming our warrior army early on. The warrior at the isthsmus would be well positioned to resume exploring once homeland defenses are more solid.

What do the generals in the pentagram think of this as a mission objective? Particularly C63, who will take over the operation in 2800BC?

The close up map reveals all known units in the game.

How fast can we build the warriors? The current production in Moscow adds 1 pop in 3 turns, workboat in 9 and then a warrior in 5. After the pop increase in 3, WB is six away, cut to 3 if pop works a 1F 2H hill. So we get workboat in 6. Work the clams (1 less food but one more commerce), or the fish with the first WB? Staying on the hill, the warrior comes in 3 more (turn 9) Putting two citizens on hills should get a third warrior out in 4 more. This is turn 13 of the set, and BW should have come in. At this point, I think a post and discussion is in order, as whether we have copper in range or not is a big fork in the road.

After turn 13 of the set, we could push a second workboat out in about 7 turns if we work two hills. At the end of the 20 turn set, we could have three warriors fogbusting the land, two workboats harvesting the sea, and be in a positon to rapidly build worker or settler in the capital. Working the hills does slow pop growth, and perhaps is will be almost as fast to work 1 hill and 1 seafood and work the second hill with the pop 3 citizen. For that idea, WB on the fish makes more sense.

The Moscow alternate production illustrates how working the hill cuts production time in half.

Also, what do we want to research after BW? If no copper, go for AH to look for horses? Maybe just decide in a discussion after BW comes in.

Thought I would discuss this before I start, in case someone has strong feelings about doing something different (like a worker or settler during my turnset).

I expect to play this tomorrow after getting feedback on these issues, and post the result of BW (copper or not?) for discussion. With prompt feedback, I'll be handing this one off on Monday.

If you have not guessed, this is the "I got it" post :D

dV

Sounds like whipping is like voting: whip early, whip often. :run: :whipped: (:D)

This insightful comment is IMO the most relevant advice for the next turn: upon researching BW, convert to slavery and whip whatever we're producing, just remember to have at least 1 hammer already invested to avoid the penalty. 1 workboat= 45h= 1 pop, but that pop will be easily regained by working another fish or clam tile soon.


The whipping tradeoff is population reduction, and potentially less commerce for science (lost hammers are less an issue as whipping gives you hammers).

So I assume the idea is to whip at a high population equilibrium, rather than at a low one? Which would mean whipping would wait for some population threshold in a city?

Or maybe not. I could see whipping a second workboat in Moscow, even at a relatively low population.

dV

Exactly. Ideally we would want to whip close to unhappiness border but the lower the pop, less food is required to grow 1 pop, so there is a trade-off involved. The thing is, in the near future, our most productive tiles will be the ones which are food-rich. Also, in this game (reading it from one of your screenies) it takes 33 food to grow from pop1 to pop2. We get 45h to go from pop2 to pop1. :whipped: Doing the math, we will want to whip each 15 turns, as in the quote Ronnie1 has presented to us a few post above.

Also, fog-busting with a few warriors is the way to go. :)

@Ronnie1: good job and cool write-up. :goodjob:

@Prince da_Vinci et all,
I would say early growth is primary need. From all the strategy articles I've read, we should try to max our city pops ASAP. Given that goal, working the grassland forrest, Moscow will grow to size 2 on turn 23. Then working the other grass forrest for 6F/4H/1C the workboat will be ready on turn 25. Travel WB on turn 26 to fish and switch to either 1 or both 2H hill tiles to speed the warrior to finish in 2 turns. Then go right back to another workboat, working the fish and one hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C. This should move BW up by 1 turn to bring it in on turn 33. Don't switch to slavery until right before we need to rush our first whatever we need to rush first. As soon as the second WB is completed start on a worker. We won't see any barbs until about T50, so we dont need to many early units.

I think we should settle the original site for our second city ASAP. After the worker, I'd go warrior-settler-warrior-WB for new city. Second city start with WB for exploring and then worker. We will need lots of workers to hack through the jungle.

Are we going to go after one of the early wonders? I'd say it's a risky proposition at best. The Industrious AI's dominated the early wonders in all of my test games. The rest of the AI's will pump out early settlers and begin to fill up this map. If we dedicate Moscow to a wonder early, I'm not sure if we'll be able to produce troops when we need them. I suppose we can always switch off of the wonder if we need to. City 2 will produce settlers very fast once it is up to max size.

That brings us back to research. Happiness will be our limiting factor on city size. The closest luxury item is the gems which will be available for mining after Moscow's culture expands on turn 77, if we have Ironworking, very unlikely by then. I say we should go for pottery early so we can use the :whipped: and recover quickly. After BW, The Wheel then Pottery? If we want to go after a wonder, which one? Pyramids are great, but expensive. Great Lighthouse will add mega commerce on a water map like this one. Oracle is a very long shot W/O marble in my opinion. Stonehenge is cheap and will give early culture boost W/O religion. Research path totally alters depending on which way we want to go.

My future city placement ideas!

The article that dV pointed us towards about the whipping bug/technique is really great. What I gathered from it was this; 1) either whip on the first turn after you have at least 1 hammer invested or 2) wait until you have just under a mutiple of 30 hammers remaining to get the most overflow to the next build. Also, the modifiers for the leaders are taken into effect when whipping, if we whip a granary or a harbor we'll get double the hammers per pop point and I think double hammers on the overflow. I need to do some more experimenting but I'm having trouble with worldbuilder right now and may need re-install.

@ Ronnie1: were you working the grassland forest in Moscow when you saved the game? When I first opened it to look around and post the data for the pre-mission discussion, Moscow was working the clams for 2F 2C. But when I opened it again to look at your latest tile working suggestions (no moves etc. and no end turn executions either time, Alan ;) ), Moscow opened working a forest grassland.

So maybe the tiles worked get reshuffled as the saves are loaded by the next player? If so, that is important to know.

About the whipping exploit/bug, if you look at the allowed/disallowed exploit threat in GOTM, the bug part is fixed in HOF mod. The bug used to be that the pop killed was adjusted for the game speed, but the hammers were not, so you could get 60 hammers for 1 pop if you played it right.

dV

It seems like we have a difference of opinion on whether to whip ASAP (C63 advises this) or to get pop to max first (R1 advises this if I have read him right). Do you two want to debate that one? :D

I am inclined to finish the WB and the second warrior while working the clams at 2F 2C. pop 3 comes in 3 turns, and I might work a coastal 1F 2C to speed BW (if I can still finish WB and warrior before BW). Or might rotate tiles each turn (I've got little else to do :lol: ) Goal would be to be able to whip the second WB as soon as slavery is available. but what I could do is post some screens of the situation after BW, which will include the following issues to resolve: what to research next, whip second WB or not, start a settler or a worker, or keep pop growing and build something else.

If human barbs really don't appear until turn 50, then I might hold off on the third warrior for a while, but since original settler start is in fog, I would rather have fog-busted that square (does that also stop generation of animals? Don't need a bear to eat the settler) if that is city 2 (which I agree with due to no jungle to deal with).

I had exactly the same ideas about city sites, with one alternative site for city 3 ... see screenie

I think I have enough consensus about objectives for the next 10 to 13 turns to get started. Will stop to consult when we see the status of copper.

dV

Hi all,

Prince da_Vinci reporting in regarding mission progress (see screenshots) at 2980 (7 turns left in this mission):

Taming the wilderness has been accomplished, and our settlers can roam unimpeded north or south of Moscow as the council sees fit. There is one unbusted fog square in the north. Optimal fogbusting will require one more warrior - do we need to make it?

Harvesting the sea is 50% accomplished. A workboat could be whipped in 2 turns (1 for revolution, 1 to whip) to complete the seafood harvest. Moscow will regrow the pop in 4 turns from now (two after the whip). This seems to be the best next step.

After that, how about a settler? Back to the original settler start makes sense as there is no jungle that needs clearing, but the actual settler movement will be for C63 to execute.

I regret to inform my superiors that there is no copper in sight. We are 1 turn beyond the bronze working discovery (done just to be sure that no copper is correct). I began wheel, as we need that to hook up any resources eventually, but perhaps a switch to AH in search of horses would be worthwhile? Knowing horse locations before committing next settler may be useful.

Good news includes the fact that we are ahead of Alexander in score (73 vs 69). We surpass him in GNP and food production, he has us on MFG goods and power. Of the top 5 cities (we are not one), only one is size 3, rest are size 2).

Also, our score of 73 at 2980 BC appears to put us right with the leaders according to the progress chart (which we have to take with a grain of salt).

To see if it works, here is a post of the autolog:

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel

Turn 34 (2980 BC)Awaiting further instructions ...

dV

@dV, I looked at that spot also, but kind of figured we could work those fish form the other side. Still undecided because of the untimely demise of our poor scout.

On the whipping issue, because of the overflow potential, I would wait until we get pottery to start whipping. Example: If we whip a warrior for 1 pop and have 20H left over, if the next build is a granary/harbor we get 40 towards that build from the overflow and double the number of hammers being worked. So Moscow at say size 4, working 2 mined hills (because the forests were chopped for a settler or wonder;)), now we get 40 form overflow+16= 56H of 90 on the first turn leaving only 3 more turns to complete the build and another great carry over.

@ Ronnie1: were you working the grassland forest in Moscow when you saved the game? When I first opened it to look around and post the data for the pre-mission discussion, Moscow was working the clams for 2F 2C. But when I opened it again to look at your latest tile working suggestions (no moves etc. and no end turn executions either time, Alan ), Moscow opened working a forest grassland.

I thought I left it working the grass forrest, that was my intent. I think I did the calculations right in my earlier post, (grow on T23, work 2 grass forrests and WB complete on T26, work 1 maybe 2 hill forrest(s) for 2 turns to save a turn on the warrior, then work fish and hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C while building second boat and waiting for BW at T33).

I created a new test map of the known land so far and played about 100 turns, I think we can get Stonehenge and maybe the Great Lighthouse as well. After BW, we research Mysticism then Masonry. After the second WB start on a worker, when finished, start chopping a hill forrest while starting WB#3, but use the other allowed exploit of putting the chops into a settler, before the chop is complete switch to the settler, you have to have at least 1 active unit, or clear the worker action at the end of the previous turn, or there is nothing to stop the worker from completing the chop automatically before you can switch. Finish the settler build at that point and start the worker on the stone quarry. After the settler is built, finish the WB#3 and go for Stonehenge. Ooops after looking at my notes, most of that took place between turns 41-65. I actually started SH on T67, right when the quarry got hooked up, and it would only take 12 turns to complete, but I added a chop to it also and finished in 8. Moscow grew to size 4 in the middle of that build and I discovered pottery as well and started on sailing. After SH, I did the warrior pop rush with the over flow into the granary and then built a lighthouse I think(it's getting late:crazyeye: ) chopped and popped another settler and then went after the Great Lighthouse.

Overall research order was Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing. Bed time!:confused:

@dV
We are like 2 ships passing in the night. I say we consider my above post as option1. I would work a hill to speed up the WB and then go imediately for a worker when that is done! Bummer about the copper, but not overly surprised(Alan and Gyathaar at work). A fortified warrior on the northern jungle hill should hold barbs back for a while.

i think that there will be no iron or copper on our island, i think that way because of the victory conditions are peacefull (and this i s a custom map), but im pleased to see 4 gems reasources, they can give us huge bonus to reaserach when we mine them.

we should consider reaserching IV sooner that will alow us to chop that jungle on gems

@dV, I looked at that spot also, but kind of figured we could work those fish form the other side. Still undecided because of the untimely demise of our poor scout. Yes, I think we could work the fish from the west. The alt site does have the cows in the "skinny square" (what you get before the fat cross) if culture for expansion was hard to come by.

On the whipping issue, because of the overflow potential, I would wait until we get pottery to start whipping. I would say that might be best as a general rule, but I think we have a special case here in whipping the second WB in Moscow. I can whip it in 2 (or 3 depending on how you count these things) turns, for just 1 pop, and the pop will be regained in 1 or 2 turns from the whip. Now we have to ask, are we better off having 3 pop without a boat on the clams, or two pop with a boat on the clams (or 4 vs. 3, etc)? The extra pop must feed itself, so if it works 2F there is only one H or C added to our net production (output minus cost), and we are +5 F for pop growth. If it works a 1F 2 H or C, then we are 2 H or C added but at a cost of 1 F (now we are +4 F) for again a net 1 H or C.

With pop 2 working the two improved seafoods, we don't get the 1 added H or C, but we get 2 more food (now +7 F for growth). At +7F, I think the next pop comes in 5 turns (vs. 7 turns if only +5 F). Also, if pop costs 33 F and whip gives 45 H, then 1F = 1.4x H on the New York Whip Exchange. So think of the 2 extra food as potentially 3 extra hammers!

I think this is C63's line of thinking as well. I hope to hear what he thinks before I wrap up the last 7 of my turns. See how whipping the WB at the start, then following your plan above would work out.

I thought I left it working the grass forrest, that was my intent. I think I did the calculations right in my earlier post, (grow on T23, work 2 grass forrests and WB complete on T26, work 1 maybe 2 hill forrest(s) for 2 turns to save a turn on the warrior, then work fish and hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C while building second boat and waiting for BW at T33). I bet you did, and the load of the save moved it. If you had been working the clams, the research would have been further along. So we should examing all cities for tile work selections on each reopening of the game, to be sure our labor plans are not getting scrambled.

I think that my builds came in close to your calculation. I worked commerce tiles a few turns to bring in the BW a turn sooner (so builds were a turn later).

Overall research order was Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing. Bed time!:confused: Did your test map have copper in reach? I am getting concerned that we need a more advanced military unit soon. Fortified warriors in woods hills might stop archers, but not axes (AI or barb).

I would love to fortify on the gem hill that controls the isthmus, but if I do that, I leave unbusted squares closer to home, that could spawn Barbs. With one more warrior, I could completely bust our land to the isthsmus. Do you think that is worth doing (about a three turn diversion to make one more at pop 3)?

In your sequence, could Wheel-Pot come before Myst-Mason?

If you and C63 have a different view on whipping the WB now, that remains unresolved, I am inclined to go his way, partly because that is my preference, and largely because he has the play after me, and ought to get it set up the way he would like it. Hope you don't mind (if that is how it comes to pass) ... ;)

Confusion brings up the issue of when to get iron working. We are going to need it for cities in the north.

Is getting 'henge all that critical, compared to just building libraries for cultural expansion (we are heading there anyway)? If not we can delay mysticism and masonry, perhaps to find that advanced military unit (AH, Archery IW)? Don't get me wrong, I love 'henge on Noble, but on Monarch, do we have greater needs, especially without copper?

So much to do, so little time ... :undecide:

dV

I like SH here because we can get so cheap (8turns w/1chop) not a very big investment of time. Masonry opens up Great Lighthouse which could a reaaly nice since all cities will be coastal for a while. If we "need" better units, I'd be more in favor of IW so we can start to clear jungle. After a little sleep, I looked at my autolog from the test game. I re-loaded a number of times because my note taking was getting pretty poor from lack of sleep last night. Also, the log seems to record actions which I changed. It says I started 3 different builds on the same turn, pretty sure the game only allows 1 for real.
Anyway I digress,
the research order from my test:
Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing-IW-Ag
The build order for Moscow
warrior1-warrior2(switched to WB1 w/fishing)-finish warrior2-WB2-worker1-settler1-StoneHenge-warrior3-Granary-Lighthouse(switch to settler for chop exploit last turn before chop) pop rush settler-finish Lighthouse-Great Lighthouse-Barracks-Library-WB-WB
Build order for St.Petes:
WB-warrior(rush w/overflow into granary)-granary-worker-settler
Novgorod build order:
granary-library

Events:
St Petes founded on T66
Novgorod founded on T93
Stonehenge built on T75
Great Lighthouse built on T131

Assetts:
4 warriors
3 workers
5 WB
3 Granary
2 Library
2 Wonders

Building in progress
Moscow-WB
St Petes-Settler
Novgorod-Library

Improvements
1 Stone quarry
1 Gem mine
all by T136

And I was wrong about the gems near Moscow. They won't be within reach on the next culture expansion. The gems in my test are the ones N of City 3(Novgorod), and I have a road almost built to isthmus. It's a solid plan!

Did your test map have copper in reach? I am getting concerned that we need a more advanced military unit soon. Fortified warriors in woods hills might stop archers, but not axes (AI or barb).

No, when I made it, all I had was my first turnset save. I purposely took out everything I could not see, I can add it in later if I want. I let my scout sit on the spot (NW rice) where the panther killed him, until a barb warrior killed him this time. All I was testing was build times given the resources we could see. The big difference in the real game is, what resources do the AI's have. I didn't touch them in my test map (luck of the draw).

No Iron on my test map either, but I new this because I made it. I don't think barbs will be a big problem on this map because all the AI's have fog busters also. This is the primary benefit of SH, border expansions let us move the fog out with fewer units. The AI's won't start sending anything on galleys until they're out of room to expand by foot. Some early moderate risk taking will pay off big down the road. Stolen quote from SGOTM2 "I do believe that to win, we have to play like a team and discuss every move and try to convince the other team members that what is planned is a good thing to do and not just something that we have to do in order to win." Good solid planning is the key. Remember, this game is sort of like golf, the team who plays fewest turnsets, not the fastest turnsets, will win!

The immediate point, pop size = more tiles worked and/or more ops to rush. Working 1 hill forrest with the fish will double production speed and let the pop grow so the worker on deck will be that much faster.

In your sequence, could Wheel-Pot come before Myst-Mason?
There is no need for wheel now, ie: nothing to hook up at this point. Myst-Mason-Wheel lets us start on the quarry and then hook it up when we want it for Stonehenge or Pyramids.

we should consider reaserching IV sooner that wi