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The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Civilization IV version 1.61, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 1.61. This is currently HOF_Mod-1.61.008 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.008.exe), but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm3_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.

Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.


Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)

Woo-hoo!!! Here we go.
Checking in.
Feel free to post all your thoughts on strategy on how best to win this one. I don't think we will win the laurels (again) - but as there are separate laurels for Vanilla and Warlords we may be in with a chance
@cas: are you ok with playing this one in Vanilla? It seems to be the preferred option. We can play the next one in Warlords if everyone is agreeable (assuming we don't all fall out in this one......)
My thoughts on this one:
- with 17 aggressive AIs, I am inclined to go for Space Race rather than Diplomacy. Diplomacy could give a faster victory but keeping enough AIs on side could be very tricky. With 17 civs the tech rate should be pretty fast
- early expansion (by force if necessary) to claim as much land as poss will be important to prvide the base for our science powerhouse
- early exploration to meet everyone quickly, and early alphabet for tech trading will be vital to get our tech off to a good start
- 'no city razing' seems a key rule to bear in mind when we are warmongering
- Oracle, GLib, GLight and possibly parthenon will be important early wonders on this map
Should be fun!!

Roster (reverse of SGOTM2, as I'm fed up of sorting out Murky's mistakes.... :p ):
Murky
nfora
Mitiu
jpc
cas
LowtherCastle
BP
Approx 20 turns 1st set, 15 turns 2nd set, 10-12 turns thereafter. In the early game play to the next 'decision point' (if it is only 6 or 7 turns you can carry on after group discussion :) )

If no 'got it' is posted for 48h, the next player on the roster may 'get it' If you are away or can't play, arrange for swaps or skips

EDIT: Added in an index of turnsets for reference of anyone foolish enough to try to wade through this thread:Turnset Table of Contents
Turnset 1 (4000bc - 3970bc) p. 5
Turnset 2 (3970bc - 3190bc0 p. 8 (minimally documented)
Turnset 3 (3190bc - 2320bc) p. 12 (minimally doc'ed)
Turnset 4 (2320bc - 1540bc) p. 16
Turnset 5 (1540bc - 985bc) p. 17
Turnset 6 (985bc - 700bc) p. 20
Turnset 7 (700bc - 550bc) p. 21
Turnset 8 (550bc - 385bc) p. 24
Turnset 9 (385bc - 175bc) p. 25
Turnset 10 (175bc - 40bc) p. 27-8
Turnset 11 (40bc - 110ad) p. 29
Turnset 12 (110ad - 200ad) p. 30
Turnset 13 (200ad - 410ad) p. 32
Turnset 14 (410ad - 560ad) p. 34
Turnset 15 (560ad - 695ad) p. 37
Turnset 16 (695ad - 710ad) p. 40
Turnset 17 (710ad - 860ad) p. 43
Turnset 18 (860ad - 965ad) p. 46
Turnset 19 (965ad - 1112ad) p. 49
Turnset 20 (1112ad - 1172ad) p. 50
Turnset 21 (1172ad - 1232ad) p. 51
Turnset 22 (1232ad - 1250ad) p. 52
Turnset 23 (1250ad - 1292ad) p. 53
Turnset 24 (1292ad - 1340ad) p. 55
Turnset 25 (1340ad - 1424ad) p. 58
BP's Cunning Plan p.60
Turnset 26 (1424ad - 1484ad) p. 61
Turnset 27 (1484ad - 1535ad) p. 62
Turnset 28 (1535ad - 1559ad) p. 63
Turnset 29 (1559ad - 1586ad) p. 66
Turnset 30 (1586ad - 1616ad) p. 68
Turnset 31 (1616ad - 1646ad) p. 70
Turnset 32 (1646ad - 1658ad) p. 71
Turnset 33 (1658ad - 1676ad) p. 72
Turnset 34 (1676ad - 1688ad) p. 75

If we are going for space race, land becomes key. Above all else, we must get as much land as possible on a map of this size. A couple of early wars will be essential to our development (by the time maces become obsolete I'd like to see us have 2-3 good cities on any other AI). I've been playing tests with this kind of map, and I've found that there can be a lot of variation in the landmasses. We could be very isolated, or very crowded. Rapid exploration followed by rapid early expansion seems key, assuming we have room for that many good cities. We will need an early production center as well.
The capitol has a good amount of food, but is also fairly commerce rich. I don't think we need to decide what to do with it until we do some more exploring though. (Settle in place btw)

Just checking in.

Not sure of a strategy yet. I think someone did come up with a practice save. I'd like to try that out and see what we can come up with.

Wa hey, this one should be good.

BP can you edit your first post with a turn list, it's easy to refer to then as we know it's always on page one!

I played the save Murky provided and got a SS victory early 1900s. Agree that expansion is vital.

With regard to capital position I would like to see what is to the East first, then NW. I would like to settle somewhere to get the hills in but only if there is seafood to the East. Otherwise settle in place.

BP can you edit your first post with a turn list, it's easy to refer to then as we know it's always on page one!
done
With regard to capital position I would like to see what is to the East first, then NW. I would like to settle somewhere to get the hills in but only if there is seafood to the East. Otherwise settle in place. I agree - also it would be a pity to settle on a flood plain. If our scout moves 1E initially (and then if necessary 1S) it will show us if there is seafood on the east coast. Production from our start is likely to be poor

Wa hey, this one should be good.

BP can you edit your first post with a turn list, it's easy to refer to then as we know it's always on page one!

I played the save Murky provided and got a SS victory early 1900s. Agree that expansion is vital.

With regard to capital position I would like to see what is to the East first, then NW. I would like to settle somewhere to get the hills in but only if there is seafood to the East. Otherwise settle in place.

I'm glad to see that you got it to work.

I think we should go BW->Fishing

Build order: worker->wb>settler/warrior

The initial site won't have great production unless we discover copper or iron nearby. We should try to get writting and a library early for a GS pop. It would also be good to get Alphabet early to begin tech trading.

Just checking in. Vanilla is fine. Haven't really given the map much thought yet, as I'm still quite involved in WOTM-3.

I did look at the start position, and settling in place seems to be right...lose resources or sea access if you move. Diplo would be faster, but only the cheap way by conquest and voting yourself in...not by keeping other civs happy. I don't agree with wasting time/production on any wonders unless we have access to marble or stone with forests for chopping. We should spend our resources expanding, conquesting for AI cities, and meeting as many other civs as possible.

cas

Just checking in. Vanilla is fine. Haven't really given the map much thought yet, as I'm still quite involved in WOTM-3.

I did look at the start position, and settling in place seems to be right...lose resources or sea access if you move. Diplo would be faster, but only the cheap way by conquest and voting yourself in...not by keeping other civs happy. I don't agree with wasting time/production on any wonders unless we have access to marble or stone with forests for chopping. We should spend our resources expanding, conquesting for AI cities, and meeting as many other civs as possible.

cas

If we want to go for a diplomacy win, let's not do it the cheap way. Figuring out how to convince enough AIs to vote for us would be a good way to get better.

If we want to go for a diplomacy win, let's not do it the cheap way. Figuring out how to convince enough AIs to vote for us would be a good way to get better.
Also with no city razing, it will be difficult to get enough votes without pushing us over the domination limit if we go for 'conquest diplomacy'
I wonder if we can manipulate the permanent alliances feature to help us reach either of the victory conditions?

I think Diplomacy is almost impossible with 17 civs to be honest.

I dont even think it's worth considering due to the fact that no city razing is in play. We would have to go to war with too many civs to gain a large enough share of the vote and warring will get us negative diplomacy with other civs.

I really think it would be foolish to try for Diplomacy to be fair, but thats just IMHO!

The no raze option might help break a few people from being so raze happy ;)

Seriously, we should keep all options on the table a the start of game. Once we have more information on the map and our rivals then make a choice. We're going to have capture some cities no matter what goal we aim for.

Just because you can't raze doesn't mean you couldn't achieve diplomacy through domination. Controlling most of the votes might be faster to achieve than the space race.

Mmmm, interesting. I suppose you are right. We should wait and see what the map is like.

We need a clear strategy but this doesn't necessarily mean a pre-determined strategy as you say.

It is not worth discussing which type of victory yet I suppose. We did this in SGOTM2 and I think we got ahead of ourselves thinking wat ifs without concentrating on what we had.

First things first, opening strategy! I think move settler 1E then 1 SE and scout 1E then 1NE then post a screenshot and decide where to settle.

I suppose this means not much more chat for a couple of days! What would be really useful is if we could get a clear idea of what techs GPs will get us. I have started a list but it's pretty hard to follow. Anyone done anything goos with excel?

Mmmm, interesting. I suppose you are right. We should wait and see what the map is like.
We need a clear strategy but this doesn't necessarily mean a pre-determined strategy as you say. I'm not so sure - what could the map reveal that would influence our choice of victory condition? And we have to decide pretty early on, as trading with the wrong civs will greatly influence our chances of Diplo victory. I suggest plan for a SS victory - but if it appears a Diplo victory is do-able and could be brought home early then we can always modify our plans. A domination diplo win is possible I suppose, but we would have to be very careful about tripping the domination limit. Of course we can always gift away cities to improve relations.
It is not worth discussing which type of victory yet I suppose. We did this in SGOTM2 and I think we got ahead of ourselves thinking wat ifs without concentrating on what we had. ... and there was only 1 type of victory possible in SGOTM2

First things first, opening strategy! I think move settler 1E then 1 SE and scout 1E then 1NE then post a screenshot and decide where to settle.I would not be keen to move the settler if it loses us a turn or 2 and we still end up settling in place. Perhaps scout 1E then 1S would give us sufficient info (ie is there fish to the east)

I suppose this means not much more chat for a couple of days! What would be really useful is if we could get a clear idea of what techs GPs will get us. I have started a list but it's pretty hard to follow. Anyone done anything goos with excel?This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952) thread lists them all

The no raze option might help break a few people from being so raze happy ;)
Who, me???? :mischief: I suspect the no raze option will only serve to emphasize the benefits of city razing :)

Who, me???? :mischief: I suspect the no raze option will only serve to emphasize the benefits of city razing :)

There are certainly some pros and cons to razing cities. The pros are that it keeps maintenance cost down and frees up troops for taking other cities. The cons to razing are that you lose whatever population, buildings and resources that city provides. In some cases you might lose something that is not replaceable like a holy shrine or wonder. You might also be giving up a strategic advantage.

Hi team !! :)

Hmmm ... I still belive that a Diplomatic Victory is doable - using our cossacks to spear fear against the other civs may bring us votes from surviving civs - no ? ;)

Regards

using our cossacks to spear fear against the other civs may bring us votes from surviving civs - no ? ;)
Umm - how? What did you have in mind?

Umm - how? What did you have in mind?

Make alliance with 2-3 AIs and start war/eliminate some other. This way I belive that we could have some trustfull allies when the UN vote will came ... :mischief:

However - this will be long after. First time we should think to a plan for the first 20 turns. Should every of us try to wrote such a plan and then the "opening players" try to summarize the suggestion ?

Make alliance with 2-3 AIs and start war/eliminate some other. This way I belive that we could have some trustfull allies when the UN vote will came ... :mischief: Ok, that could work (I presume you don't mean a Permanent Alliance' as that could tip us over the domination limit). If we go for Diplo we need to be quite clear about which civs we ally and trade with

However - this will be long after. First time we should think to a plan for the first 20 turns. Should every of us try to wrote such a plan and then the "opening players" try to summarize the suggestion ?Sounds very sensible. I'm especially interested to hear the experiences of anyone who has played through the test games or a game with similar settings

I'm not so sure - what could the map reveal that would influence our choice of victory condition? And we have to decide pretty early on, as trading with the wrong civs will greatly influence our chances of Diplo victory.

The map is very important, why be diplomatic with someone (which often means sacrificing something) when we need to invade there lands soon because we dont have decent/enough land ourself. If we have crap land then warring is essential, and that may mean that Diplo is not acheivable. Therefore I agree with Murky. We should go with a quick expansion philosophy at first, see what the map is like and then decide what victory is most beneficial. Also what if we have lots of peaceful civs near us and aggressive civs further away? Diplo will be very hard.

... and there was only 1 type of victory possible in SGOTM2

I think I meant strategy not victory.

I would not be keen to move the settler if it loses us a turn or 2 and we still end up settling in place. Perhaps scout 1E then 1S would give us sufficient info (ie is there fish to the east)

Agreed but I think people worry too much about a turn or two at the beginning of a game. I would rather take 3 turns to settle and make sure we have the best spot than risk settling a worse spot for the capital. The capital is obviuosly the most important city we have in the short/medium term.

This thread lists them all

This is the list I have put into excel but I am in the process of putting in the pre-requisites for each tech as this influences it, it takes ages! But hopefully I can finish it and post it for the team soon.


I think taking one turn and posting a screenshot for the first 2-3 turns for city placement may be worth it? Unless it's a no brainer. What do you think?

Also, I have just noticed something. Aggressive AIs. To me that makes Diplo even harder?

Sorry to come across anti-diplo, I am not at all, but I think we should wait and see first! Concentrating on a micro-management type optimum growth strategy will be most beneficial at the moment. Which means optimum city placement for the capital.

I agree about optimum capital city placement being key. And I am not particularly enamoured by the starting location - great food but little early commerce and virtually no production. However it intuitively feels wrong to spend 2-3 turns before settling - the scout would have to see something good on the 1st turn to persuade me to go walkabout with the settler

Screenshots every turn until we settle is probably the way to go

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure aggressive AI would make diplo harder. If AIs declare on us there would be no lasting negative modifiers (no 'you razed our city' minuses!). And with aggressive AI it would be easier to persuade them to declare war on each other - to our advantage.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure aggressive AI would make diplo harder. If AIs declare on us there would be no lasting negative modifiers (no 'you razed our city' minuses!). And with aggressive AI it would be easier to persuade them to declare war on each other - to our advantage.
I had thought agressive Ai only meant they started unhappy with everyone compared to normal. If this is the case it's certainly possible to overcome, especially in the long term.

However it intuitively feels wrong to spend 2-3 turns before settling.

This is my point, is intuition a good enough reason to settle 1-2 turns earlier? I propose a maximum delay of 3 turns to fully assess whats on the east coast. 1 to move, 1 to move back, settle on third. That's 2 turns of wasted city production, it's nothing.

Turn 1: Settler 1E, 1SE Scout 1E, 1NE, we should now be able to see the whole of the East Coast and be able to identify where we put the Capital. Post Screenshot and discuss.

It will take a maximum of 2 turns to get to the ideal spot. It may be a waste of time but who knows! Not much of a risk considering the possible benefits.

EDIT: Actually an even better use of turns would be:

Turn 1: Settler 1E, 1SE Scout 1NW, 1E
Turn 2: Scout 1SE, 1NE Now we have only moved the settler once and can see the East and West Coast. Post Screenshot and discuss.

I had thought agressive Ai only meant they started unhappy with everyone compared to normal. If this is the case it's certainly possible to overcome, especially in the long term.
My understanding is that they are more prone to declare war even when pleased

This is my point, is intuition a good enough reason to settle 1-2 turns earlier? I propose a maximum delay of 3 turns to fully assess whats on the east coast. 1 to move, 1 to move back, settle on third. That's 2 turns of wasted city production, it's nothing.

Turn 1: Settler 1E, 1SE Scout 1E, 1NE, we should now be able to see the whole of the East Coast and be able to identify where we put the Capital. Post Screenshot and discuss.

It will take a maximum of 2 turns to get to the ideal spot. It may be a waste of time but who knows! Not much of a risk considering the possible benefits.

EDIT: Actually an even better use of turns would be:

Turn 1: Settler 1E, 1SE Scout 1NW, 1E
Turn 2: Scout 1SE, 1NE Now we have only moved the settler once and can see the East and West Coast. Post Screenshot and discuss.
Perhaps we should be clear about what things would persuade us to not settle in place. For example if we discovered 1 fish off the east coast would that be sufficient reason to change the capital site from the starting position?

I belive that settling in place ( if not discover in the East something really interesting - like fish or stone/marble ) is still the best alternative for early fast growth and later for a pretty good commerce city. :)
Of course then research should be Fishery -> Bronze Working.

Regards,

P.S. : We're on epic speed now - how many turns will play in a turnset ? :mischief:

I think settling in place might work out ok. We are playing a Philosophical leader and there is a lot of food around in our first city. Getting early GPs could make all the difference. The problem will be early production. Moving SE would be giving up the only natural 2 hammer tile wouldn't it?

We also will need room to settle a 2nd city on our tiny island. My initial thought would be to settle in place and make the next city a production city. We should work to get our GPs out at a fast rate. We might even try a GP based singslot.

Perhaps we should be clear about what things would persuade us to not settle in place. For example if we discovered 1 fish off the east coast would that be sufficient reason to change the capital site from the starting position?

I think so yes. Production and Commerce are vital in your capital when Beaurocracy is in place. If there is seafood to the East I would rather settle 1E, 1NE. That gives us seafood, spice and two hills which will possibly have iron, copper, gems (in future)?

I think settling in place might work out ok. We are playing a Philosophical leader and there is a lot of food around in our first city.

This is the tactic I used in the practice game, I don't think it was the best option.

Dont get me wrong, settle in place looks good. But can someone explain to me the major disadvantage of waiting 2-3 turns to decide. Especially seeing as wonders will be out of the question until city 2-3.

This is the tactic I used in the practice game, I don't think it was the best option.

Dont get me wrong, settle in place looks good. But can someone explain to me the major disadvantage of waiting 2-3 turns to decide. Especially seeing as wonders will be out of the question until city 2-3.

Wonder's aren't as critical if you're doing a GP based slingshot. The problem I see with the site you propose is that we don't know what is under the fog and so far there isn't enough food there. Could be something good or could be nothing at all. Do we want to chance losing 2-3 turns on a risky gamble?

Do we want to chance losing 2-3 turns on a risky gamble?

Again, this is a perception thing "risky gamble". Why is it Risky? And why does 2-3 turns matter in the scheme of things? It's a gamble but a very small one, It will only be 2 turns of delay at most.

Why does 2 turns matter?

We also will need room to settle a 2nd city on our tiny island. My initial thought would be to settle in place and make the next city a production city. We should work to get our GPs out at a fast rate. We might even try a GP based singslot.
We don't really no that we are on a tiny island. This map can churn out some odd landmasses, including short isthmi. Even if it is a small island, it is very likely that there are more within range. Of course, it is a Gyathaar creation though, so one never knows.

Ok. If we move the scout 1E it will reveal all of the east coast tiles except those directly east of the spices and I think will also reveal the land tile 2E of the settler. (red squares on map) That should give us enough info to decide whether to settle on the east coast (1E, 1NE) as JPC suggests. If the scout then moves 1NW it will reveal the hidden west coast tiles plus the forests to the north (blue squares on map). This should then give us maximum information as to whether to decide to settle in place or not without having to move the settler

This is the tactic I used in the practice game, I don't think it was the best option.

Why not? The lack of production?

This map can churn out some odd landmasses, including short isthmi.
Hehe - we can tell you're the Latin scholar!:culture:

Why not? The lack of production?


Hmmm ... I also tried the practice game. :rolleyes:
The main problem seems to be how to generate another first great persons other than great scientists ( via building a library ) ... which are pretty useless in the begining as I could observed. :blush:

Any ideea ? Or maybe I expected too much from the first 3 GP ?

Hehe - we can tell you're the Latin scholar!:culture:
Yeah, about to start Cicero's Pro Archia Poeta in January.

The main problem seems to be how to generate another first great persons other than great scientists ( via building a library ) ... which are pretty useless in the begining as I could observed. :blush:

We could always chase a religion; it may even be a viable strategy in a game where peace is the ultimate goal. It would take some serious effort though, and a beeline to monotheism (mysticism->polytheism->masonry->monotheism->fishing probably), though it is possible we could get Hinduism working the floodplain, then one of the spices at size 2. I'm not sure if this would be worthwhile or not, but aggressively spreading our own religion could work to our advantage in a UN vote.

Hmmm ... I also tried the practice game. :rolleyes:
The main problem seems to be how to generate another first great persons other than great scientists ( via building a library ) ... which are pretty useless in the begining as I could observed. :blush:

Any ideea ? Or maybe I expected too much from the first 3 GP ?

What you do with early Great Scientist is add the 1st one as a super specialist and build an academy with the next one. This gives you a nice boost to your early beaker output without needing to develop cottages.

What you do with early Great Scientist is add the 1st one as a super specialist and build an academy with the next one. This gives you a nice boost to your early beaker output without needing to develop cottages.
By the time we will have libraries to make a great scientist, we probably won't have to worry about that much undeveloped land in our capitol. A GS at that point would probably be best used to lightbulb a tech, either that or it should be saved to lightbulb late-game techs.

By the time we will have libraries to make a great scientist, we probably won't have to worry about that much undeveloped land in our capitol. A GS at that point would probably be best used to lightbulb a tech, either that or it should be saved to lightbulb late-game techs.

I was refering to the strategy of getting writting early so that you can build a library before you start building cottages. It works pretty well sometimes.

We could always chase a religion; it may even be a viable strategy in a game where peace is the ultimate goal. It would take some serious effort though, and a beeline to monotheism (mysticism->polytheism->masonry->monotheism->fishing probably), though it is possible we could get Hinduism working the floodplain, then one of the spices at size 2. I'm not sure if this would be worthwhile or not, but aggressively spreading our own religion could work to our advantage in a UN vote.My concern with this strat is that we will be in competition with all the AI religious nuts like Isabella, Asoka/Gandhi etc - I think our chances of success in bagging an early religion are likely to be slim and beelining will be at the expensive of 'essential' techs such as Fishing and BW. It would give us a chance of the Oracle I suppose but only with a production rich second city

I was refering to the strategy of getting writting early so that you can build a library before you start building cottages. It works pretty well sometimes.That's not a bad plan. Getting an strong tech rate going early has been the key to success in many of my GOTMs (or at least, the GOTMs I was successful at :blush: ). Interesting that you'd use the 1st GS as a superspecialist rather than an academy tho - not sure about the basis for that (but I haven't looked closely at the figures). Saving GS's for optics/compass etc as per CFR in SGOTM2 would be a good use given the importance of early exploration - but we would have to be careful with what techs *not* to research

Interesting that you'd use the 1st GS as a superspecialist rather than an academy tho - not sure about the basis for that (but I haven't looked closely at the figures). Saving GS's for optics/compass etc as per CFR in SGOTM2 would be a good use given the importance of early exploration - but we would have to be careful with what techs *not* to research

Typically the city will produce something like 8 beakers of science before cottages. If you build the academy then you only get +4 science for the GS. If you add the 1st Great Scientist as a SS you get 1 hammer and 6 science.

What you do with early Great Scientist is add the 1st one as a super specialist and build an academy with the next one. This gives you a nice boost to your early beaker output without needing to develop cottages.

Interesting. :cool:
I use the first great scientist to lightbulb Mathematics for faster chop-rush ... :mischief:

Typically the city will produce something like 8 beakers of science before cottages. If you build the academy then you only get +4 science for the GS. If you add the 1st Great Scientist as a SS you get 1 hammer and 6 science.

Yes I saw this in CFRs thread I think? I have also seen people making the mistake of thinking that the academy doubles super scientists beakers which it doesn't. It just doubles base beakers if you like.

With regard to the early scout movement, what you suggest BP will take 2 moves, i.e 1 turn delay in settling. The scout will need to move 1SE first move, then 1N, 1NW but it wont reveal whats east of the spices. This is a compromise with a 2 turn delay in settling which will reveal everything.

I don't want to labour this too much guys but I still haven't got an answer as to why a 2 turn delay in settling is a big deal?

I don't want to labour this too much guys but I still haven't got an answer as to why a 2 turn delay in settling is a big deal?

Well ... we could try this - even that in such position will be probably first time when I didn't settle in first turn. :)

But ... let's me understand something : what exactely do you hope to found in "darked" area in order to settle on another spot ?

1 Seafood square would be enough for me to move capital to get 2 hills, 2FP, 1 spice in. The production will be very useful in the short/medium term.

We could always put a city on the island to the South to get both clams in, this could probably be a good GP farm. It even looks like it could be plains hill.

Aha - you're somehow right about this ...
Hmmm - or there could be a wheat/rice or cow/sheep in the darked W for setling in the forest1 E+1 NE. In fact I'd prefere this because could be better to go for other techs then fishing.

Anyway - who and when will start the game ?

I don't want to labour this too much guys but I still haven't got an answer as to why a 2 turn delay in settling is a big deal?

On any crowded map, early expansion is king. Delaying settling that many turns could mean sacrificing a good site to the AI. We need to find and settle a good production site ASAP for this game to work, regardless of which path we intend to take.

OK, how fast could we pump out a workboat if we settle in place as opposed to moving? If there is seafood near an East site then we could make up workboat production easily by populating either the grasshill for 2 hammers or the plains hill for 3! We would more than make up for the 2 turns lost.

I really dont think 2 turns is an issue, it's not like SGOTM2 where we wandered for ages.

Ok. If we move the scout 1E it will reveal all of the east coast tiles except those directly east of the spices and I think will also reveal the land tile 2E of the settler. (red squares on map) That should give us enough info to decide whether to settle on the east coast (1E, 1NE) as JPC suggests. If the scout then moves 1NW it will reveal the hidden west coast tiles plus the forests to the north (blue squares on map). This should then give us maximum information as to whether to decide to settle in place or not without having to move the settler
With regard to the early scout movement, what you suggest BP will take 2 moves, i.e 1 turn delay in settling. The scout will need to move 1SE first move, then 1N, 1NW but it wont reveal whats east of the spices. This is a compromise with a 2 turn delay in settling which will reveal everything.

1 Seafood square would be enough for me to move capital to get 2 hills, 2FP, 1 spice in. The production will be very useful in the short/medium term.

We could always put a city on the island to the South to get both clams in, this could probably be a good GP farm. It even looks like it could be plains hill.
Moving the scout 1E first will reveal the majority of the east coast tiles (but not as you say, those directly east of the spices. If this reveals seafood, then there are probably good grounds for settling 1E,1NE as you suggest. If not, then rather than going 1NW as I previously suggested (which will reveal more tiles, but none relevant to the proposed city location), the scout can continue its initial move 1S to reveal the coast squares E of the spices. So, we now have enough information to decide whether to move the Settler 1E, 1NE or to settle in place on turn 1

(PS I agree 1E, 1NE looks a better spot *if* there is at least 1 seafood in the fat cross)

OK, sounds cool to me.............Fingers crossed!

I still think we should be 100% sure and wait 1 turn to check out the tile East of the Spices. But am happy with the compromise above. I have just done the calcs and getting those hills in will really help IF there is seafood. We would get a settler out on turn 40 in both scenarios (i.e benefit of hills will enable a workboat first and regain 2 turns lost)so will not lose any turns. IF there is seafood!

I still think we should be 100% sure and wait 1 turn to check out the tile East of the Spices. But am happy with the compromise above. I have just done the calcs and getting those hills in will really help IF there is seafood. We would get a settler out on turn 40 in both scenarios (i.e benefit of hills will enable a workboat first and regain 2 turns lost)so will not lose any turns. IF there is seafood!Remember scouts have 2 MP - so it can move 1E then 1S in the same turn

Hi

I've added LowtherCastle to your team list after consultation with Murky. He should check in shortly, I hope.

Since Gyathaar updated the screenshot with the blue circles, it looks like food to the east may be possible (I am assuming that there would have to be something interesting for a blue circle to pop up over there though).

Thanks for letting me join you. I followed the CFR team last SGOTM and decided I wanted to play, but I missed the sign-up thread by a couple of weeks. Somehow, I didn't think it would happen until December.

This is the first SGOTM ever for my, but I think I'll be able to fit in pretty well. I've played a ton of CIV III and a reasonable amount of CIV. I feel comfortable at Monarch level in CIV, but I still haven't gotten to the point where I can blow the other civs away early on.

I'll study your posts up to now a bit more and throw in my 2 cents.

Welcome !! :)

Thank you, Mîtiu Ioan!

My usual strategy is to focus on developing a juggernaut research engine, so that should align well with this SGOTM. Admittedly, I usually don’t go for Space race or diplo victories, but have had situations where I had to avoid them.

My understanding of a space race strategy is that we want to have a small handful of trading partners (2,3,4?) who have a weaker research engine than we, but who we keep gifting up to our level so they can do some of our research for us. Since we will have to occasionally gift them techs they’ll love the crap out of us and will be dying to elect us as the Secretary General of the UN. In other words, Spacerace and diplo kind of go hand in hand, if we have the better research engine. All the rest of the civs are expendable and we should…expend.

My thinking for this SGOTM is that if we have a well-rounded focus on research, including a healthy dose of land and resource grabbing and some well-cultivated research partners (with about 35% of the land mass:goodjob:), then we’ll have an opportunity for either VC toward the end and my guess is that the diplo become our choice because it comes sooner on the chart and we’ll be in a situation where we know we’ll win the election.

Guess I'm blind but I can't find that test game download you guys were talking about.

General
No city razing? Maybe Gyathaar figured out a brilliant way to make CIV a game of civ building, not crazed warring. Since we're in this for the long haul we may want to develop three centers: palace, Forbidden Palace, and Versailles. Two GEs would be dynamite (Versailles and Oxford).

Peter
Philosophical and expansive. The floodplains are not what we need, but those two traits and the food-rich location should enable us to have large cities (+2 health, half-price granaries) that can afford multiple specialists and produce plenty of leaders. Your discussion on lightbulbing with GLs may be really significant. Maybe we should let someone else build the Parthenon for us.:cool:

Anyone studied how useful Golden Ages are? We could also tried to string together 2-4 of those, including the Taj Mahal.

Victory conditions
As far as Diplo VC, our favorite civic is Police State. Don’t know how significant that is but I suppose that means our natural allies would be Aztecs, China (if their leader is Qin). Mongolia (Ghengis), Spain. PS is high upkeep but indispensable for great warring. Hmmm…let’s me see if I understand this, we want to ally with a bunch of fascists and communists so we can achieve a diplomatic victory…(vbg). (Yes, I know, there are other ways to gain allies, just joshing a bit.)

As for Space ship VC, five other civs also get half-priced universities. If we decide to go spaceship, or even if we don’t, it might be wise to plan for a Great Engineer (forge, pyramids? if we have stone) to rush Oxford University. Combined with the cheap universities and others not emphasizing Paper, hence Education, that would give us a turbo-charged boost toward the modern techs.

Early wonders
Since this is archipelago and no city razing, the Great Lighthouse may have extra high value. Most towns may be coastal and whether we take or build them, the +2 trade routes usually cover maintenance costs immediately. The lighthouse we have to build first will also give this initial town more commerce. Plus, the GL doesn’t get obsoleted for a long time (Corporation).

If we have stone, pyramids would be good for the GEs along with representation, but that may be going astray of our goals.

I think happiness is our biggest problem for the early game. Our starting location and civ traits are begging for explosive growth and a pop-rushing frenzy, but we're going to be slamming violently into a happiness ceiling. We either need to get to hereditary rule ASAP or luck out and find ivory, gold, silver and gems on the nearest desert islands. I'd like to run a couple tests, but I'm wondering if we even need the second workboat early on. Or even the first, considering the floodplain. Maybe there's a cow just N of the SE wines.;) Let's send our scout toward the nearest cow herd and hope he finds it on the first turn. Then send him looking for some gold, silver and gems.

In general prefer to settle on the first turn, but I'm not sure I see the hurry in this case because this starting location is in my view early-game weak (hope one of you can convince me otherwise). The problem with considering the spot E-NE is that we really need to know if there's a water resource E of the wines and the scout won't reveal that on E, but will on E-S. Then we would know for sure whether we want Settler to move. But the blue ring is on NE-NE and I'd like to see the scout go E-NE because that gives a glimpse over that hill into the green grass on the other side. That couldreveal who knows what but it surely will expose a large number of darkness, at least 3 more tiles.

I think the first person needs to scout E and 1) look forwater resources, as discussed, and then 2) check what is revealed E of the NE hill to see if fog-gazing can reveal what's around that corner before deciding whether to scout NE or perhaps NW.

I think we've basically got a good idea how to start the city off, but what about techs? should we try for a religion or not? It would certainly help with LowtherCastle's happiness headache.

The test game mentioned is actually in a different post where we have been practicing our teamwork. Feel free to join in!: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191859

With this many civs getting an early religion would be close to impossible but they should have no problem spreading once all the civs have coastal trade routes.

We might be able to do a CoL slingshot but that also has problems because our lack of production for the Oracle.

If we settle in place our first priority should be settling a good production spot for the 2nd city. If we go with BW first then Fishing we should be in good shape for an early settler. I think expansion will be the key to winning.

With this many civs getting an early religion would be close to impossible but they should have no problem spreading once all the civs have coastal trade routes.

I think you may be overestimating the difficulty in getting a religion with our start. Can anyone run a few tests before we begin, so we can determine whether an early religion is viable with our start?

There are a few test games around in other threads we can use to look at that.
e.g. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4790667&postcount=2
My gut feeling is it will be difficult, and would curtail development of Moscow as we would
a. not be able to learn Sailing and BW for a while
b. not be able to build a worker first to maximise growth and commerce tiles worked

Hi LowtherCastle - and welcome
My usual strategy is to focus on developing a juggernaut research engine, so that should align well with this SGOTM.
...
My understanding of a space race strategy is that we want to have a small handful of trading partners (2,3,4?) who have a weaker research engine than we, but who we keep gifting up to our level so they can do some of our research for us. Since we will have to occasionally gift them techs they’ll love the crap out of us and will be dying to elect us as the Secretary General of the UN. In other words, Spacerace and diplo kind of go hand in hand, if we have the better research engine. All the rest of the civs are expendable and we should…expend.
Sounds a sensible strategy - and as you say it would help both VCs. I would have thought with 17 AIs we would need 4 or even 5 trading partners. The trick will be choosing those that are happy to trade techs (think - Mansa = good; Toku = bad) and who will be happy with each other and so not be pissed off that we trade with all of them. And ones that will not beat us to a SS victory.... We may even be able to persuade 1 into a permanent alliance....

My thinking for this SGOTM is that if we have a well-rounded focus on research, including a healthy dose of land and resource grabbing and some well-cultivated research partners I agree early research is key. This is another arguement against going for one of the early religions as we need to focus on early writing. Early CoL or Philosophy may be eminently doable tho'

Since we're in this for the long haul we may want to develop three centers: palace, Forbidden Palace, and Versailles. Two GEs would be dynamite (Versailles and Oxford). As for Space ship VC, five other civs also get half-priced universities. If we decide to go spaceship, or even if we don’t, it might be wise to plan for a Great Engineer (forge, pyramids? if we have stone) to rush Oxford University. Combined with the cheap universities and others not emphasizing Paper, hence Education, that would give us a turbo-charged boost toward the modern techs.
I'm not convinced Versailles will be the most useful wonder to use a GE on (tho' of course it depends on the size of our empire). Oxford early, in a high commerce city will be v important tho'

Anyone studied how useful Golden Ages are? We could also tried to string together 2-4 of those, including the Taj Mahal.Most useful with multiple cities I think - very good for SS part production

As far as Diplo VC, our favorite civic is Police State. Don’t know how significant that is but I suppose that means our natural allies would be Aztecs, China (if their leader is Qin). Mongolia (Ghengis), Spain. PS is high upkeep but indispensable for great warring. My understanding of 'favorite civic' is that is only relevant to when the AI is playing the leader. So wheras an AI Peter will generally run Police State, there is no compunction for us to do so. If we run Hered Rule instead (say) we will be natural allies with the HR-loving civs

Since this is archipelago and no city razing, the Great Lighthouse may have extra high value. Most towns may be coastal and whether we take or build them, the +2 trade routes usually cover maintenance costs immediately. The lighthouse we have to build first will also give this initial town more commerce.food?
Plus, the GL doesn’t get obsoleted for a long time (Corporation).

In general prefer to settle on the first turn, but I'm not sure I see the hurry in this case because this starting location is in my view early-game weak (hope one of you can convince me otherwise). The problem with considering the spot E-NE is that we really need to know if there's a water resource E of the wines and the scout won't reveal that on E, but will on E-S. Then we would know for sure whether we want Settler to move. But the blue ring is on NE-NE and I'd like to see the scout go E-NE because that gives a glimpse over that hill into the green grass on the other side. That couldreveal who knows what but it surely will expose a large number of darkness, at least 3 more tiles.

I think the first person needs to scout E and 1) look forwater resources, as discussed, and then 2) check what is revealed E of the NE hill to see if fog-gazing can reveal what's around that corner before deciding whether to scout NE or perhaps NW.

Hello and Welcome! Great input first up! Will be good to have a fresh view about.

With regard to above....My sentiments exactly, I usually settle first turn the majority of times, but on this occasion I think we should wait a turn or two to fully examine our options. Especially since the crabs can both be used in a city to the South at some point in the future.

I would really like to find out as much as possible about the East coast and this may mean a 1 or 2 turn delay. I have yet to be convinced why this is so much of an issue.

.................I'm sounding like a broken record and am gonna be chucked off the team in a minute aren't I.:p

Hello and Welcome! Great input first up! Will be good to have a fresh view about. Yes - they're all bored with me droning on ;)
.................I'm sounding like a broken record and am gonna be chucked off the team in a minute aren't I.:pActually, I PMed AlanH about this already :mischief:
Seriously tho', it is very valuable that you do defend your views and give us alternatives to consider.

Here is what we will do for opening strat: 1st player (Murky on the rota, but it can be anyone - whoever posts a 'got it' 1st) opens the save on Friday, moves the scout 1E, posts a screenshot, saves and closes. We can then have a slightly more informed debate on what to do with our settler and how to finish the scout's move (1S, 1NE or 1NW). We can then finish the scout's move, take another screenshot, save again and finalise what to do with the settler. Murky can then play his turns (in the event we agree to do further walkabout before settling, we will repeat this until a Capital-site is chosen).
Any objections?

Originally Posted by LowtherCastle
Since this is archipelago and no city razing, the Great Lighthouse may have extra high value. Most towns may be coastal and whether we take or build them, the +2 trade routes usually cover maintenance costs immediately. The lighthouse we have to build first will also give this initial town more commerce.food?
Plus, the GL doesn’t get obsoleted for a long time (Corporation).

@Big Pig: Yes, sry this wasn't clear. Of course the lighthouse adds a bushel. What I meant is that these coastal tiles then become more useful as commerce-bearing tiles for our research center.

Sorry folks, but I don't know how you get those quotes set off. That's a very nice technique.

Anyway, Big Pig, I think your suggestion for the opening moves till we settle is a great idea. It really keeps us on the same page in these critical stages. Personally, these opening moves are for me the most trying and it's nice to have some company.

If we settle in place our first priority should be settling a good production spot for the 2nd city. If we go with BW first then Fishing we should be in good shape for an early settler. I think expansion will be the key to winning.
And you think we should produce a worker first, right?

That brings up a question I haven't noticed discussed. What about worker theft? Not that I'm clepto or anything, but that might be our best solution to keeping any close neighbors from breathing down our neck. THat would require us to build a warrior first, but the risk might pay off with a free worker. With 17 civs, I would think we'd be able to contact enough for trading even if we have to research sailing ourselves, so alienating a neighbor or even two might pay off handily. Furthermore, we'll be rapidly finding out if there's any copper on our island and we might well have to race someone else to get it.

Especially since the crabs can both be used in a city to the South at some point in the future.
Let's not forget that the island across from the crabs may well be inhabited and that space quickly settled.

Let's not forget that the island across from the crabs may well be inhabited and that space quickly settled.

Oh yes but it will be ours! :devil:

Here is what we will do for opening strat: 1st player (Murky on the rota, but it can be anyone - whoever posts a 'got it' 1st) opens the save on Friday, moves the scout 1E, posts a screenshot, saves and closes. We can then have a slightly more informed debate on what to do with our settler and how to finish the scout's move (1S, 1NE or 1NW). We can then finish the scout's move, take another screenshot, save again and finalise what to do with the settler. Murky can then play his turns (in the event we agree to do further walkabout before settling, we will repeat this until a Capital-site is chosen).
Any objections?

That sounds cool, Murky we will expect the screenshot to be posted at 12:01!

And you think we should produce a worker first, right?
That brings up a question I haven't noticed discussed. What about worker theft? Not that I'm clepto or anything, but that might be our best solution to keeping any close neighbors from breathing down our neck. If this was pangea or continents, then yes. On an archipelago start, chances are we will be alone on an island (not certain, but likely). So, the rate limiting step to a worker steal will be galley production. In this case worker first will be better than warrior first. Also, without raging barbs it will be quite safe for our scout to explore the island without worrying about capital defence

Roster updated - see page 1 of this thread

Some more consensus on general strat would be useful - especially with input from those that have tried out the save games so we know what to expect.

To summarise my thoughts so far:

Starting position and starting techs: To be determined by what the scout sees. Current settler position is relatively weak (good food, mediocre commerce, poor production) so a delay in 2-3 turns *if* we can find a better cpital site is acceptable

General early strategy: Early exploration for exapansion and trade. Early expansion to grab as much land as poss (?aided by early warmongering). Focus on research as much as poss.

Early techs: Guided by resources. Beeline to writing. ?Beeline to CoL (for religion), ?beeline to Alphabet (tech trading)

Early wonders: (will depend on having good production city +/- stone/marble) Oracle, Parthenon, GLight, GLib should all be considered (tho' clearly we will not get them all....). Hanging Gardens may help with GE production

Early Religion: Unlikely to be in the race for the first 3 (and will distract from getting early writing). Confuc or Taoism are possibilities

Early Great PeopleLikely to be GS's. 1st for Academy or superspecialist (depending on how early it pops). Subsequent ones could be used for lightbulbing Compass and Optics (and even Astronomy) as per CFR's SGOTM2 spoiler or Philosophy (for Taoism)

Into the mid-game: Concentrate on tech. Education and Liberalism beeline. Build Univs and Oxford. Create 3-4 close allies by tech gifting to help with sharing research. Warmongering expansion as appropriate

Some more consensus on general strat would be useful - especially with input from those that have tried out the save games so we know what to expect.

To summarise my thoughts so far:

1: Starting position and starting techs: To be determined by what the scout sees. Current settler position is relatively weak (good food, mediocre commerce, poor production) so a delay in 2-3 turns *if* we can find a better cpital site is acceptable

2: General early strategy: Early exploration for exapansion and trade. Early expansion to grab as much land as poss (?aided by early warmongering). Focus on research as much as poss.

3: Early techs: Guided by resources. Beeline to writing. ?Beeline to CoL (for religion), ?beeline to Alphabet (tech trading)

4: Early wonders: (will depend on having good production city +/- stone/marble) Oracle, Parthenon, GLight, GLib should all be considered (tho' clearly we will not get them all....). Hanging Gardens may help with GE production

5: Early Religion: Unlikely to be in the race for the first 3 (and will distract from getting early writing). Confuc or Taoism are possibilities

6: Early Great PeopleLikely to be GS's. 1st for Academy or superspecialist (depending on how early it pops). Subsequent ones could be used for lightbulbing Compass and Optics (and even Astronomy) as per CFR's SGOTM2 spoiler or Philosophy (for Taoism)

7: Into the mid-game: Concentrate on tech. Education and Liberalism beeline. Build Univs and Oxford. Create 3-4 close allies by tech gifting to help with sharing research. Warmongering expansion as appropriate

Beautifully put sir.

My comments:

1: Can I say anymore with out getting a radioactively poisoned letter!
2: Vital.
3: It might be worth considering Fishing or Bronze Working, we need to carefully assess what a worker can do when we build one, I found on the test game this was a little tricky. I always like to build a worker but it may not be worth it, i.e if we settle 1E, 1NE we already have 3P on the forested plains hill, agreed chop rushing a settler which requires a worker is a big benefit!
4: I am rubbish at this side of it, bring on the Cas man! Are we ruling out oracle?
5: Agree.
6: I used the first GS as a super specialist as Murky suggested and it gave me a big boost, well I perceived so anyway didn't do the calcs.
7: Oui D'Accord

I would also like to add 8 & 9 into the list.

8: Get a galley out fairly soon and go for circumnavigate bonus, fairly easy to get on this type of map.
9: Trading is absolutely vital in this game, it gets tedious but trading techs every turn or two really keeps you in the game.

9: Trading is absolutely vital in this game, it gets tedious but trading techs every turn or two really keeps you in the game.
That's funny, for me tech trading is one of the delights of the game. I can hardly wait to get Alphabet each game. Candy in a candy store. Of course, Mechanical Armor against Pikemen is also fun.

The first two religions are out of the question from a quick test game or two. Judaism though may still be possible were we to beeline it.

Don't forget to name our capital Murky Waters. After all, those who don't know history repeat it, and we know what happened to Isabella last time around.

Oh yeah, I guess you're not planning ot settle right off anyway. Still I like the idea of our capital being Murky Waters.

=Isabella

Uh...make that Peter.

Guys, I know it's out of roster order but does anyone else want to make the first move with the settler and post the screenshot for construction? I don't mind doing it.

I am sure I wont muck it up!:)

Folks, last night I had a nightmare. Actually, I was awake and I tried Murky's test game and settled in place. It took me 450 turns to make my first workboat....

So then I decided to try the plains location NE, NE, even without any water resource. I picked that location because with a pop5 limit, the one flood plain farmed and another river grassland farmed was enough to work a couple hills and have reasonable production. I built a worker first and researched agriculture then BW. It worked all right but nothing spectacular, because Murky decided that the rest of the island should be covered with jungle:rolleyes:, and as I tried to work in the hill pigs with AH and thought about IW for the jungle, research started to drag out ad infinitum. I toyed with the idea of a GL gambit as I slept.

This morning I tried it. Same start, worker, Ag and BW. I made two warriors to fog bust so I could live in peace on my desert island without distractions from Barbie. Together with the scout, who seems to fogbust in CIV (anyone know this for sure?), I had the island fogbusted.

After BW I went to fishing, then sailing. I built a settler, who went north to be able to use those two hills when Moscow soon expanded (he wouldn't be able to develp the jungle pigs or the fish for a long while but I wanted more production for a galley), and then lighthouse in Moscow when I could.

I chopped wood only making one farm two tiles from the city and for a hill mine. TImed things pretty well on the LH and then went to masonry. Also timed that well somehow so that the LH fininshed on the same turn as Sailing and started the GL immediately. Finshed it in 1150 BC.

I chopped a couple more to get the GL. I also used the mined copper, but I doubt it would have been a problem if that hadn't existed. Just a another chop and a few more turns. In my second town I made a galley first, IIRC, then a worker.

Anyway, I have attached a save from 50 AD in which I have achieved tech parity, finally, with the half a dozen civs I've met. I had bad luck with my two galleys, went the longest way possible and met most of them just recently, so I couldn't trade until I researched compas, because I wasn't giving up alphabet. (I almost never trade alphabet, unless one guy finally researches it and doeesn't trade to others that turn).

One interesting note, new to me anyway, I made two GMs and haven't made a GS yet. I was a bit stingy on the scientists specialists because I wanted to focus on expansion. Tursn out I was able to use the first GM on Metalworking and the second on Currency. Pretty good boost. I think using the GM for currency at this point ( just cashed in both a turn or two before the save) is worth a lot more than a big trade mission who knows where umpteen turns down the road, when my hobbling galley finally gets there.

Food for thought.

Do notice how each new town immediately has 3 trade routs worth 2 bucks each. My capital is actually pretty feeble research wise and yet my research seems to be staying up with my rivals, I've got parity expansion-wise, only Kubla Kahn has one more city than I, and I'm in great position to take out Rome if I want.

One other interesting detail about this no-razing and domination limits. If I'm not mistaken, the domination count includes only land tile, not coastal tiles as in CIV3. Is that right? Because with all these dinky islands, we can get good cash and population with the GL, a LH, a granary, and a harbor (+50% trade route yield) without using a lot of land tiles. If they happen to have a water resource (or a happiness resource!!!), bingo.

Guys, I know it's out of roster order but does anyone else want to make the first move with the settler and post the screenshot for construction? I don't mind doing it.
I'm content to stay where I am in the order, being new to all this. Plus, I still haven't learned how to do screen shots.

I can play this morning if you want. Do we have a solid plan yet?

Just downloaded the save.

I know what you mean about the test game, I tried it 3 times and getting wonders is very hard.

Things to learn.

1) Early tech strategy should fit in with worker duties, needs to be calculated very carefully to assess growth benefits and idol worker turns.
2) Do not settle 2nd city in a spot that needs lots of worker improvement, settle further away if need be.
3) I got Great Library and that was it for wonders.
4) I also played another save game and the land mass was completely different, therefore don't read too much into it as fractal maps are about as random as you get.

BP shall I take the first scout move and post screenshot for discussion? Murky can then take his turn from then on to keep in line with roster?

He has had a whole 12 hrs 50 mins. Just cos he is on a different timeline and is sleeping is no excuse! JOKE

Low where abouts are you? Give us a little profile. Ours are all on SGOTM2 thread.

Wa hey, post cross over there. The plan is move scout 1E, 1S and post a screenshot for discussion.

Wa hey, post cross over there. The plan is move scout 1E, 1S and post a screenshot for discussion.

Ok, give me a few minutes.

Ok, give me a few minutes.

Youre 12 hours 56 minutes late already and you want a FEW MINUTES!:)

Clear the sleep from your eyes first, no FUBAR antics this morning!!!:goodjob:

Youre 12 hours 56 minutes late already and you want a FEW MINUTES!:)

Clear the sleep from your eyes first, no FUBAR antics this morning!!!:goodjob:

I have a problem guys. It's asking for a version of the HoF mod I don't have. It ends in .009???

Yes you all need to download it, there is a link on the SGOTM maintenance thread. Only takes two seconds, download, install.

Ok, I re-downloaded the save just incase trying open it without the mod might corrupt it or something.

Here is what the scout reveals.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/603/mwsgotm3s10000xx7.jpg

OK, my opinion.

MOVE, MOVE, MOVE!

Settler 1E, 1NE for now.
Scout 1N, 1NW.

Post Screenshot again!

EDIT: As a side note we may be on a small island by the look of it. It may be worth trying to see whats East of the Spices (i.e delay settlers 2nd move if there is anything interesting 1E of spices) to fit two cities on this island. IF its a small island.

OK, my opinion.

MOVE, MOVE, MOVE!

Settler 1E, 1NE for now.
Scout 1N, 1NW.

Post Screenshot again!

EDIT: As a side note we may be on a small island by the look of it. It may be worth trying to see whats East of the Spices (i.e delay settlers 2nd move) to fit two cities on this island. IF its a small island.

Ok. I believe cities cannot be built within 2 squares of each other.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9383/mwsgotm3s20000ld4.jpg

Oh, OK I didn't think you would do it that soon, thought we were gonna wait for feedback. But I am sure that's OK.

I would like to settle 1 N, it has Crabs, Fish and with the luck of the Irish, Iron and Copper! EDIT: Actually can you get Copper and Iron on Forested hills? I know it can appear later but not sure if it will appear straight away?

I am not too bothered about settling cities close to each other, it's better to pick the best spots. We can have a city to the SW and SE by the look of it. Not sure about the North, hopefully it's not coast and we have enough room for another city to utilising the Gems.

We should really wait for the others now mate.

Oh, OK I didn't think you would do it that soon, thought we were gonna wait for feedback. But I am sure that's OK.

I would like to settle 1 N, it has Crabs, Fish and with the luck of the Irish, Iron and Copper!

I am not too bothered about settling cities close to each other, it's better to pick the best spots. We can have a city to the SW and SE by the look of it. Not sure about the North, hopefully it's not coast and we have enough room for another city to utilising the Gems.

We should really wait for the others now mate.

Ok. I had thought that the consesus was move to a better site for production if there is enough food to the east. I'll wait for the others to settle.

I normally don't rename cities in my own games but the capitial can be whatever you guys want.

Settling where the settler is now has higher commerce than 1N but then we lose the crab and the wood.

I think we'd have to settle ontop of the spice to fit in another city if we do 1N.

Guys - don't rush things. I know it is very exciting having a new SGOTM to start but..... We have already wasted 1 scout move by moving 1S after 1E (1E would have revealed the seafood and given us enough of a reason to move the settler 1E, 1NE - which would have revealed the tiles east of the spices - the scout could then have continued the 1st move 1NE or 1NW instead of 1S.)
Anyway, I think the best decision was to move the settler and I think this probably was the consensus. The question now is where do we settle? Both the current spot, 1N and 1N, 1NE have their merits

Guys - don't rush things. I know it is very exciting having a new SGOTM to start but..... We have already wasted 1 scout move by moving 1S after 1E (1E would have revealed the seafood and given us enough of a reason to move the settler 1E, 1NE - which would have revealed the tiles east of the spices - the scout could then have continued the 1st move 1NE or 1NW instead of 1S.)
Anyway, I think the best decision was to move the settler and I think this probably was the consensus. The question now is where do we settle? Both the current spot, 1N and 1N, 1NE have their merits

No I think Murky did move 1E, 1S with Scout, then we saw fish and moved settler. Only one turn has been taken. 30 years per turn at beginning.

We have only moved one turn and can settle 1N this turn. You are right to keep on our backs though BP, I am all excited again!

No I think Murky did move 1E, 1S with Scout, then we saw fish and moved settler. Only one turn has been taken. 30 years per turn at beginning.

We have only moved one turn and can settle 1N this turn. You are right to keep on our backs though BP, I am all excited again!

My point is that 1E would have revealed the seafood - the scout didn't need to go 1S after and could have gone 1NE or 1NW instead. But never mind. I fear it is only a small island and he will soon run out of scouting opportunities.

Siting the capital will be tough if we want to maximise early production and commerce, *and* leave room for other decent cities on the island

I think 1 N.

1N, 1NE will take two turns as we cannot move Scout this turn and we dont know enough about whats there yet to waste a settler turn.

Although it does allow us to get another city in the starting position so it might be worth it. Mmmmm, Decisions, Decisions!

I thought you guys liked settling 1st turn!

My point is that 1E would have revealed the seafood - the scout didn't need to go 1S after and could have gone 1NE or 1NW instead. But never mind. I fear it is only a small island and he will soon run out of scouting opportunities.

Siting the capital will be tough if we want to maximise early production and commerce, *and* leave room for other decent cities on the island

Yes you are right, sorry.

I think 1 N.

1N, 1NE will take two turns as we cannot move Scout this turn and we dont know enough about whats there yet to waste a settler turn.

Although it does allow us to get another city in the starting position so it might be worth it. Mmmmm, Decisions, Decisions!

I thought you guys liked settling 1st turn!

I did like settling 1st turn but now that more is revealed it looks like there might be a better option. Certainly the initial site had great food and good commerce but it was lacking in production. I'm favoring settling on top of the wood because it's going to be a better all-around site than 1N.

I did like settling 1st turn but now that more is revealed it looks like there might be a better option. Certainly the initial site had great food and good commerce but it was lacking in production. I've favoring settling on top of the wood because it's going to be a better all-around site than 1N.

I dont agree there, 1N has Fish, Crab, Spices and 1 FP. It also has the river tiles to the South that will get irrigation/cottaging benefits.

What benefits do you see 1N, 1NE apart from defence bonus?

EDIT: Actually it's a plains hill and will allow the second city to go on the original spot so I think you may be right.

I dont agree there, 1N has Fish, Crab, Spices and 1 FP. It also has the river tiles to the South that will get irrigation/cottaging benefits.

What benefits do you see 1N, 1NE apart from defence bonus?

EDIT: Actually it's a plains hill and will allow the second city to go on the original spot so I think you may be right.

1N would be a nice production site but it will have slow growth before border expansion because a lack of food.

1N NE has some unknown tiles and would cost us another turn before settling. It is lacking in commerce from what I can see.

Settling in place gives us 2 floodplains, 4 river tiles, 2 spices, 1 fish and two forested hills for production. There is also a chance of copper, iron or horses 1N. It can work the floodplain before border exansion.

1) 1N would be a nice production site but it will have slow growth before border expansion because a lack of food.

2) 1N NE has some unknown tiles and would cost us another turn before settling. It is lacking in commerce from what I can see.

3) Settling in place gives us 2 floodplains, 4 river tiles, 2 spices, 1 fish and two forested hills for production. There is also a chance of copper, iron or horses 1N. It can work the floodplain before border exansion.

Good points Murky, I never tend to consider the small cross before settling but those 8 turns can be important.

I am now thinking Option 2 above for the following reasons.

Allows a good commerce city to the South.
Has extra hammer for city spot.
Commerce can be improved by cottaging grassland tiles so is no major issue for me, and the commerce city to the South will more than compensate.
Has Fish AND Crab allowing all hills to be worked along with workshopped plains and cottaged grasslands in the future.
EDIT: In fact I think that because it allows a Commerce city to the South is the most important thing. Science/tech rate is important. We can also chop those forests to help with worker/settler expansion to start with.

Good points Murky, I never tend to consider the small cross before settling but those 8 turns can be important.

I am now thinking Option 2 above for the following reasons.

Allows a good commerce city to the South.
Has extra hammer for city spot.
Commerce can be improved by cottaging grassland tiles so is no major issue for me, and the commerce city to the South will more than compensate.
Has Fish AND Crab allowing all hills to be worked along with workshopped plains and cottaged grasslands in the future.
EDIT: In fact I think that because it allows a Commerce city to the South is the most important thing. Science/tech rate is important. We can also chop those forests to help with worker/settler expansion to start with.

In hindsight then it might have been better to settle on the floodplain then crank out a quick settler for the high production city on the hill.

1N would be a nice production site but it will have slow growth before border expansion because a lack of food.
If we go worker 1st slow initial growth is not an issue.
At present I think I favour 1N 1NE, primarily because as JPC says it allows us a second good commerce city in the south and should have good early production. Commerce from clam and fish will not be too bad.

EDIT: Altho' before BW and the ability to chop production may not be too great - there are a lot of forests up there....

In hindsight then it might have been better to settle on the floodplain then crank out a quick settler for the high production city on the hill.

I don't agree, we would have had to get galleys to transport settlers for quick expansion which doesn't fit in with quick expansion. This way it looks like we can get three cities close to each other which means it's easy to defend with fewer units against aggressive Civs.

Also Beaurocracy benefit applies to both production and commerce so it is better to have both in capital IMHO.

If we go worker 1st slow initial growth is not an issue.
At present I think I favour 1N 1NE, primarily because as JPC says it allows us a second good commerce city in the south and should have good early production. Commerce from clam and fish will not be too bad.

EDIT: Altho' before BW and the ability to chop production may not be too great - there are a lot of forests up there....

If we build worker first and research BW then this isn't an issue.

Anyone else thinking Worker>Worker>Settler. It's the ideal early growth combo for this situation. i.e lots of forests to chop rush. Workboats on the fish and Clams should pick growth up fairly quick and by then we should have those hills mined.

See - http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.php

So we should go 1N 1NE or wait for the others to chime in?

Errm, not sure. If we both say 1N, 1NE and so does BP that's 3/7. We need one more person really to be sure and fair.

Worker>Worker>Settler is looking v.v.Good.

Errm, not sure. If we both say 1N, 1NE and so does BP that's 3/7. We need one more person really to be sure and fair.

Worker>Worker>Settler is looking v.v.Good.

Ok. I have the game minimized on my desktop. It should be ok for a while.

I say 1N 1NE for one simple reason: the spices won't be useful for a while, and I'd rather have the added early production and defense of a plains hill under the capitol.

See - http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.php
I'd like to point out that that is for 1.52. chops aren't as productive anymore.

The concern with worker>worker>settler is that we probably won't have much commerce - so BW for chops and fishing will be a long way off. If we research Fishing first and switch to wb when we can, we can at least work the high food, reasonable commerce water tiles. With both seafoods being worked, growth and worker/settler completion should soon catch up and with a decent tech rate.

@Murky: I would suggest saving and closing. It would be good to get input from everyone for the initial few moves

Ok. So we have enough votes to go 1N 1NE?

Edit: Nevermind. I have saved and closed for now. We should get input from everyone first.

OK, nfora has tipped the scales and that is where we place "Murky Waters" Murky! The honour is all yours.

I usually don't like producing a workboat first but in this instance I think you guys are right. It should only take 12 turns because of the extra hammer and working the Grassland/Hills/Forest square.

Then fish the fish and switch to a worker>settler. Should work well.

Edit - Ahh, we dont know Fishing. This is what I mean about planning the first techs, we dont want to build a worker that has nothing to do so will it be better to start worker>Workboat>complete Worker>Settler while researching fishing first or is it better to complete Worker>Workboat(maybe with help of a chop)>Settler and research BW first.

I'll be away now until Mon pm. Make sure whatever you plan is well thought out! How many turns will it take to learn BW and how many for Fishing on epic? Fishing>BW and start worker>WB>WB>worker seem the best options to me at present but I haven't done the calcs. A worker will not be able to mine forested hills w/o BW and cannot farm or cottage at present

Feel free to skip me in this and the Rome game if I haven't checked in - although I would *hope* we don't rush through 6 turnsets in 3 days.......

This is moving fast, guys. I don't have time right now to figure some thing s out but in about 3 hours I;d like to get back to you. I'm looking at the various combinations of commerce and hammers. The hill site is good because it let's us settle on the original start position, that's for sure. Having to get fishing is also good I think, because if this is very archipelagous, we'll need galleys and I'm also strongly hankering for the GL as you already know. The hill also gives us perhaps a more central position if we have neighbors further north.

But my main thinking revolves around this. What do we want for this first city? Research center? GP center? Production center? Some combination? Settling on the current blue circle would give production to build necessary buildings and a ton of food for a great GP center. It could also function as a decent research center with a lot of cottages, but that would lower the number of spsecialists we could put into it for GP faarming. Settling on that hill strikes me as commerce poor for a research center and less powerful food-wise for a GP center. IN short it looks like a prodcution center of sorts, and if there are only grasslands to the N of it, a less pwerful prod center than the blue circle site.

We could send the settle to that hill for a look-see and decide whether to come back to the blue circle a turn later. I don't think 30 around 4000 bc is critical for our future world domination, especially since we're not going for a religion, as I understand it.

In any case, I see definite questions concerning settling on that hill and would like to get back with you in about 3 hours. If you go ahead before then, no probs with me. It's goig to be a fun ride no matter what because this position is zillions better than that test map and all those forests are going to be fun to chop.

BP is right, the worker will be idle for nearly 10 turns even if we go WB>worker. Therefore Partial Worker>WB>WB>Complete Worker>Warrior while queue switching to get chop hammers towards a settler maybe best option.

Let's not rush.

But my main thinking revolves around this. What do we want for this first city? Research center? GP center? Production center? Some combination? Settling on the current blue circle would give production to build necessary buildings and a ton of food for a great GP center. It could also function as a decent research center with a lot of cottages, but that would lower the number of spsecialists we could put into it for GP faarming. Settling on that hill strikes me as commerce poor for a research center and less powerful food-wise for a GP center. IN short it looks like a prodcution center of sorts, and if there are only grasslands to the N of it, a less pwerful prod center than the blue circle site.

To me it's a production centre, however with the seafood tiles it can easy be a mixture of Production and Commerce once we cottage grasslands. The seafood will easily enable us to work all hills without having to farm the grass tiles which can be cottaged. To me a mixture of a city for the capital is good as the Beaurocracy benefit (50% on P and C) really helps out.

The main issue which I have been trying to calculate in excel is the build sequence, the low commerce means that BW takes a while, but building 2 WBs then finishing Worker will compensate quickly I think. But I haven't managed to confirm it.

But I have managed to confirm that if we build WB>Worker the Worker will be idle for about 10 turns as we wont have BW, due to low initial commerce.

In spite of all this I still think we should settle on the plains hill. The commerce city to the South will be absolutely vital.

Therefore for me it's Fishing>BW>....Pottery>Writing.

Get a settler to the South and start cottaging ASAP!

Hmmm ... guys, what about settling 1 south from actual position, right on the spice ?:rolleyes:

This way we will have for sure space for another city later. :)

Regards

To get a bit off-topic, I see us trying for three wonders: The Great Lighthouse, The Great Library, and The Colossus. On this map, both the lighthouse and the colossus offer very strong advantages, the the first is naturally the more important of the two.

I'm back, folks. Thanks for waiting.

I did some rough estimates. Don't take my numbers for the Gospel. Since we can't see 7 tiles in the hills fat cross and 1 in the plains cross, there's a range of possibilities obvoiusly.

For the hill, pop5, max-hammers range from about 9-14.
For the plains, pop5, max-hammers ranges from 11-13.

Down the road, max-pop for the hills could be +8, or more, = 4+ specialists.
Maxpop for the plains looks to be +13 = 6 specialists and I doubt that will change. Maybe we could irrigate grassland in the fog tile and get to 7. Not considering post biology because that's so late in terms of GPs.

Maxgold for a pop12 hills looks to be between 40-50, base money, assuming 3 trade routes and no Colossus. Maxgold for Plains could go up into the low 60s.

One other key difference, if I'm not confusing myself, is that the hills would be putting a max of 5 prod units to the worker or settler at pop1 for the first 7 turns, whereas the plains only 4 units. In other words, worker in 18 turns instead of 23 turns. WB production will be similarly boosted by one shield, obviously.

In short, prod is roughly a toss-up, gold and food also early on. The hills location eliminates the need for agriculture but forces us to make a WB or two. BOth locations need wbs eventually.

I think you guys are on target with the hills location. Our capital will produce roughly 20 x multipliers less as a research center and will be not be great shakes as a GP producer either, but the location might give us a significantly better start. In any case, if we decide to send the settler to the hill well immediately know how good it is and can still go for either option. No harm done.

If we do go the GL/ maybe Colossus route, we could be creating research by having tons of coastal towns with libraries, which maybe be a lot more powerful than this one town, anyway.

EDIT: Note that if we settle on the plains spot we can still get that south clam by settling on the S wines, if we so choose.

Hmmm ... guys, what about settling 1 south from actual position, right on the spice ?

This way we will have for sure space for another city later.
This again leaves us hammer-poor, but on this vein, if we settle on that blue circle plains tile, we can still settle on the far south wines if we want. That gets us the clam that is otherwise unreachable, if I'm not mistaken.

To get a bit off-topic, I see us trying for three wonders: The Great Lighthouse, The Great Library, and The Colossus. On this map, both the lighthouse and the colossus offer very strong advantages, the the first is naturally the more important of the two.
In that practice run I did, BTW, I didn't even think of going for the colossus, because I wanted to expand rapidly, but I think it would have been in the bag because I got that GE so early and could have grabbed MC right then. The colossus did get built relatively early on though, so we would probably need copper to consider it.

With all those woods, we could maybe get the Great Library too if we go for Literature early enough. Without mrable it might be pretty risky. I wonder if Gyathaar put industrious civs next to marble and expansionist next to copper, etc. We might want to send a galley south to search for marble.

The main issue which I have been trying to calculate in excel is the build sequence, the low commerce means that BW takes a while, but building 2 WBs then finishing Worker will compensate quickly I think. But I haven't managed to confirm it.

But I have managed to confirm that if we build WB>Worker the Worker will be idle for about 10 turns as we wont have BW, due to low initial commerce.
...
Therefore for me it's Fishing>BW>....Pottery>Writing.
This leads to a key issue, I think, in terms of getting the Great LIghthouse, although maybe I' missing something. When I did it, I had to research agriculture in addition to BW fishing and Sailing, and then masonry. BUt on the build sequence I didn't need to build any workboats, so instead I built the three warriors after the worker and fought only one battle with a single warrior and never saw another barb. That fog busting on a deserted island (which may not be the case here) left me free to focus on the wonder then expansion. No worries about barbs or wars. I'm wondering how we're going to work in fogbusting, wbs AND an early wonder. Is it realistic?

Saturday morning now. Just to make my position clear, barring further discussion to the contrary, I agree that we move the settler N, NE to the hill next to the clams, post another screen shot and decide whether to settle there or not.

Saturday morning now. Just to make my position clear, barring further discussion to the contrary, I agree that we move the settler N, NE to the hill next to the clams, post another screen shot and decide whether to settle there or not.

Yes think this is now the general Concensus, I am not sure about your maximum Pop limit though, If we settle on the plains hill we will have Fish and Clams and also fairly soonish we will be able to connect up those Gems for happiness which should make it at least a Pop 6(EDIT: They are a bit further away than I thought but we will still get them sooner). If we settle to the South we wont get the Gems bonus until the 2nd (EDIT: Or even 3rd) city and Spices cannot be worked until calender.

I also agree with nfora and all those forests up North will help with Wonder production.

Murky I think 1N, 1NE it is unless you see anything that may change our minds, however we would have lost 2 turns and personally I don't see any point in wasting anymore. We are already guarenteed an excellent mixed Prod/Comm capital and an excellent Commerce city to the South, which I think we should settle next unless we see Copper anywhere else (As this helps Colussus build).

I am not sure about your maximum Pop limit though,
That was just for purpopses of comparison, WHEN our pop limit is 5. Hopefully, we'll survive long enough to raise that a bit...vbg

Furry Muff, whats "vbg" mean?

I uploaded the file to the progression page.

The next player can take it from here. I won't have time to play much today.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Murky_Waters_SG003_BC3970_01.Civ4SavedGame

Furry Muff, whats "vbg" mean?
very big grin

OK Murky

Just to summarise I have taken a screenshot, Votes as I see it are:

Red Spot - Murky, JP, BP, nfora
Green Spot - Mitiu
Undecided - Cas, Low (EDIT:Actually Low suggested moving to Red spot and posting another screenshot, which is sensible I suppose.)

Is that right? If so I think the next player should be settling 1N, 1NE next turn and founding "Murky Waters".

143589

nfora, are you OK to take your turn yet or would you like a skip?

OK Murky
Green Spot - Mitiu
{...}

Mmmm - I suggested 1 south no 1 north in order to have room for a second production city somewhere in north !! :rolleyes:
But didn't matter - my opinion is anyway in minority for the moment.

I can probably move and take a screenshot. Give me a couple of hours. Consider this my 'gots it' though.

Well this took less time than I had expected it would. I believe that the following screenshot shall speak for itself:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8738/sgotm33970bc1la9.jpg

And the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Murky_Waters_SG003_BC3970_02.Civ4SavedGame) link from the submission page.

Great! Just what we needed: Stone, to confuse the situation even more.... (That is stone isn't it?)

Do we need roads to access that stone or does it travel on the sea (without fishing and sailing)? Representation would be awesome for making GLs and having tons of happiness. Do we have any choice but to go for the Pyramids?

It's stone alright. Stone fits into our plans absolutely nowhere. We could try for the pyramids, but we'd have to sacrifice the great lighthouse. Maybe go for an early stonehenge and follow with the great lighthouse? I'm really not sure.

Well, we have taken 2 turns and I beleive it's time to settle on the Plains hill. Mitiu dont worry about your opinions being in the minority, everyone has that at some time or the other.

Stone settles it for me, we should settle on the red spot nfora and take your turns. I think we agreed to research fishing then BW and part build a worker before building 2 workboats and finishing worker. Unless there is anyother strategy?

I doubt you will get that far with your 20 or so turns anyway.

I'm passing the remainder of my turns on; I only had time to do that little bit this morning. I have one last paper to write before getting ready for exams.

I think we agreed to research fishing then BW and part build a worker before building 2 workboats and finishing worker. Unless there is anyother strategy?
Does anyone know how many hammers, if any, we'll lose on the worker while building the workboats? If it's than a small handful, it might makemore sense to just build a warrior. We're going to need them to fog bust anyway, most likely. THe first wb will take 15 turns. In that time we havne't quite grown to pop2, then with the wb on clams, we grow to pop3 in about 9 turns, I think. That means the second wb will probably take most of 15 turns, right? Don't we start losing hammers after 15 turns?

Two alternatives would be to go:
1) partial wkr - wb - finish wkr - wb,
2) warrior - wb -wb - wkr (poprush with BW at earliest sensible moment - but I have n't done any calcs on pop growth to see how this would coincide with researching BW).

We're going to need them to fog bust anyway, most likely.
I think this is a bit premature. On this kind of map it's very common for one to start on a small island. If this has happened to us here, we could easily be fine with only 1 warrior to fogbust for the foreseeable future; building more would therefore be a waste of hammers.

With stone we actually have a pretty good chance at the pyramids, and as a philosophical leader that could give us a strong advantage in terms of Great Engineers. Perhaps we should now consider whether trying for Pyramids->Colossus would be a more viable strategy (using a GE either to research MC or to build the colossus itself). Though if the Great Lighthouse has yet to be built by the time the Great Engineer comes out, that would probably be a better use for it.

I think this is a bit premature.My thinking on the warrior is just that it would be a waste of hammers, if the partial build on the wkr dissipated while building the 2nd wb, right? Plus, we would in that case also miss out on some growth.
Though if the Great Lighthouse has yet to be built by the time the Great Engineer comes out, that would probably be a better use for it.Great idea! Had forgotten about that possibility. With half-price GLs, we get him, when, after 38 turns? Do you know if we need Wheel to access that stone or will the quarry on the coast do it? In other words, does the coast operate like a river does in terms of connectin up resources?

Ok, I've done a few calcs with my wife pestering me for attention (excuses, excuses). If we are looking at the Pyramids, then i got the following:

Fishing (9 turns) -> BW (22 t) -> Masonry (13 t) -> The Wheel (12 t)

wkr (9 t = 1/2 done) -> wb1 (15 t) -> wb2partial (1 t while pop --> 2) -> wkr (7 t) -> wb2 (14 t **but switch mine chop to settler for 1 turn) -> settler (~11 t) or warrior to let pop grow to 4 then settler

pop2 (25 t) -> pop3 (16 t) -> pop4 (6 t) -> ... pop5 -> (6 t minimum)

In this scenario, if I figured things out right, we can start on the Pyramids some time before 2000 bc with a wkr, 2 wbs, settler, and 1 warrior, and we'll need less than 20 t to finish them. This includes no poprushing. In this calc I worked grassland forest at pop1, until wb1. THen grassforest and clams at pop2, etc. In other words I focused on growth the entire time, not commerce, except for the clams instead of fish because it seemed like hitting the clams with the wb on the same turn saved two turns on growing to pop2, plus the extra buck per turn.

In other words, does the coast operate like a river does in terms of connectin up resources?

I'm fairly certain that coast doesn't function that way.

I think when you have sailing the cities are linked by coast but I'm not sure about resources.

Sounds good Low, you are right about Hammers being wasted, I don't know much about this though. Is it after 15 turns on epic or 23 (i.e 15 x 1.5) that hammers start disappearing? The problem is that getting a worker too early means he is waiting for 7-10 turns doing nothing.

If you put another turn into building it does that give you another 15 turns grace?

Ran a test run with Murky's map altered to the current situation, and found out a number of things.

1. Wkr's production went from 45 to 41 hammers when I finished the 15-turn wb, and went down 1 more hammer next turn as I waited for pop2. Looks like it goes down a hammer a turn starting on the 11th turn. Didn't test the additional grace period, but I think I have in teh past and it's a no go. No grace.

2. Forgot that epic Pyramids cost 675!!!. Finished them in 970bc, but that included the settler, a wb for that city and another warrior, when an barbarcher tortured my warrior on the end of a pole. AI finished Stonehenge in 1210bc and Oracle in 1150bc.

3. No road, no stone. Didn't try sailing without Wheel.

4. Health surprised me. I avoided chopping the forest on hill next to Moscow to keep the health point, but lost it anyway when a chopped the last forest in the outer fat cross. No river, no forest, health was +7 with pyramids, so gems would make happiness +8 but health would be lacking. We would still have plenty of food and could use the reserve happiness point to cover poprushing. Also means we can gleefully mine that hill because no need to save the forest, which would speed up pyramids and other prod somewhat.

5. I wanted to chop forest near start location before settling there and got one done, but then St. Pete commandeered the rest of the chops, meaning that Moscow had no more chops for Great lighthouse. This location is a bit forest-poor, after we settle St. Pete. Just speed up pyramids by skipping the settler and wb for St. Pete? (I think St. Pete can get its builds from poprushing so it doesn't need hammers too much.) This would start the Pyramids a good 16 turns earlier. I'm tempted to test this and see if GLight falls to us too.

6. WB on ocean-fish gives 2 commerce! This was news to me. I worked the clams first because it comes a turn sooner, but I suspect the extra food pays off over the ensuing 22 turns before the next wb.

7. Do we really want the Pyramids? Lot of work and missed expansion. Unless we can get it and GLIght and expand, I'm wondering if it's a priority on this map. Hard for me to decide, because I rarely go for the Mids and don't know how beneficial they really are. Guess when we're up to 5 cracking cities we get a lot of extra research outof it and that's what we want.

8. Barbs appeared in 2680bc, that is, my city showed "we fear for our safety" that turn.