Long-Range Plans

Domination Threshold:

I agree not to panic. Also, I want to verify (because I had the impression from LK's last post that this isn't clear: In order to get a domination victory, we need to exceed both the population and land thresholds. If we have 90% of the population but only 40% of the land, we don't get a domination victory. So, for backdoor domination (our diplo victory condition), we just need 62% of the population to completely control the vote, and as long as we keep our land (water doesn't count) holdings to <50% of the world's total, this will work.

Also, I did a quick test on a similar archipelago map. No one except the founding civ would take a city that I'd captured. So, I think we should grab all cities of any given civ on one island, then if necessary, we can whip the population down to size 1 and give it back to the original owner (assuming they have a city somewhere else).

The Map's Tech Rate It appears the Hagia Sophia got built not long ago. (I was hoping to put that in Moscow, for more GE points.) We have a tech lead, but not much of one. This, honestly, is my largest worry about our current position: pikes behind culture defenses can stop a cossack rampage, and rifles, once the AIs get them, end the era of cossacks altogether. I'm worried that we may not be finished with backdoor domination before this happens.

We're further behind in tech than I'd thought. I think we should gun for cossacks before Astronomy and hope we can cover our galleys with caravels for a while.

Back-Up Plans: One thing I haven't mentioned up to this point is that up to Mass Media, the fastest space race and fastest backdoor domination tech paths look similar. I generally shoot to early Computers, to build laboratories to increase my tech rate, then go back and get Rocketry via the Chemistry-Steel-Artillery path, then Fiber Optics to build the Internet and get the techs on the Assembly Line path. The only wrinkle is that on production-poor maps, sometimes finishing the parts rather than finishing the tech is the limiting factor on space speed. This archipelago is better than usual for production, but if we want to switch to space race, we'll want to consider if we should pursue Assembly Line and Industrialism earlier, prioritizing production over tech.

The other thing I should note is that warring for more production and faster tech is also a typical part of an early space victory.

I think we should go all out for the backdoor domination victory as fast as we can. If we fail, we lose the event.

Religion and Diplomacy: We are about 8 turns away from Liberalism, and we still don't have a state religion. I would much rather pocket the extra happiness, culture (with Free Religion, it doesn't matter what religion is in a city, religion will produce culture; and we also get the culture from any holy cities we capture), and science from Free Religion than bother with a state religion: I remain skeptical that even with the religious bonuses, we're going to have much luck getting AIs to vote for us because of the hidden -4 penalty. Remember, they have to be Friendly with us, and not have better relationships with our diplomatic opponent. If there's one thing I've learned through bitter experience in Civ4, it's that engineering someone to be your diplomatic opponent is a risky gambit: if there's a clear leader in the AIs, it can work, but usually, there are two or three AIs in close competition.

In this game, not only do we have several AIs in close competition, but we have three major religious blocs to deal with. The current crop yield chart, usually a good proxy for population, has Hatshepsut in the lead, with Kublai Khan, Mao Zedong, and Tokugawa close behind. A war or differential growth rates later in the game could change our diplomatic opponent, and I wouldn't count some of the other powers out, either. Beyond this, I suspect that once the AIs develop Liberalism, some of them will switch to Free Religion too. With so many opponents, most of them don't have a self-founded religion; and with competing religious blocs, the AIs who've founded religions will probably make efforts to spread them, and this means AIs with multiple religions and no self-founded religion, and thus a possible incentive to switch to Free Religion.

I like Free Religion. There's still time for the AIs to change their religions before the UN votes. I think we can consider switching to a religion while we're researching Mass Media. By then, we won't want expanding borders in any new cities anyway, so the lack of religious culture will be good. Right now, we want the cities we take to be productive, so Free Religion is better.

If there's no good religion to switch to, we save those anarchy turns and invest them in more conquest.

Who to Kill: I think we need to start making plans for who to kill next. I see four components that should go into deciding who to kill. The most important is geography, in terms of who's close to where our army is, and who we want to eliminate to eliminate culture crush on our cities. The second is relative power ranking: do we go after the strong AIs to slow the map's tech rate or eliminate dangerous enemies, or weak AIs to add them to our empire without much effort? The third is wonders: are there any wonders we want to acquire? The fourth is diplomacy.

I think we should take the rest of the Roman island, then make peace with Caesar while leaving him Ravenna. Who's our next target then? I see a couple of candidates:

Egypt is the score leader and adjacent to our island. It has no useful wonders, is sandwiched between Mali and Inca, and is part of the small Hindu bloc.

Inca has the Great Lighthouse(!) and is reasonably close to us, past Alex, and is in the top third for score. However, it's next to Creative Egypt, and farther than other possible targets.

Japan has the Hagia Sophia and an island to itself, is part of the large Buddhist bloc, and is one of the score leaders. It's past Gandhi, about the same distance away as Inca.

Alex and Mao we've already talked about.

I say take Rome, then take Greece/China, then start with Huayna and work our way up that whole island. If we need to, we can then turn our attention to Gandhi, Victoria and/or Toku.

Next Turnset

The War: I'll keep killing Caesar until he's dead. I plan to hit Neapolis, then Antium if I have time.

I'm hoping that by taking Rome, I grabbed his only iron source. That will prevent crossbows and praetorians. Take the whole continent, but leave him in his island fortress.

Cities: I'm going to finish the market in Novgorod, then have it build military. Why is Yaroslavl' building military without a barracks? I'm going to change that immediately. St. Pete has a huge amount of whipping unhappiness to burn off. I'm going to whip libraries and universities in our Roman cities ASAP: we need to get Oxford started. I think we need to be more sparing with the whip, where possible: our cities need to grow when possible.

Great plan. I wish I'd noticed that Yaroslavl' didn't have a barracks. I whipped the crap out of St Pete because it needed the infrastructure. With all its improvements being farms, the only useful thing for it to do is whip and run specialists. I actually wouldn't have whipped the market so soon if I'd been paying more attention. The next thing this will whip will probably be an observatory. Or maybe some tricky whipping to get overflow into Oxford if we want to build it here.

Next GP: We are due for a GP in 6 turns from St. Pete. This will either be a great artist (20%) or great scientist (80%). A great artist will discover Theology then Divine Right then Nationalism. A great scientist will discover Printing Press, then Astronomy. What do people feel is the appropriate use of our next GP?

I forget if we have a forge there or not. Running an engineer for a few turns would decrease the odds of an artist a little bit. If we are going to pop techs, it's best to wait until the last moment since we get more beakers with more cities and more population. Suggested uses: GA: save for Radio, GS academy in St Pete or Moscow or save to pop Printing Press; GE: Not sure, but this is a long shot. I think a GE will build about 1200/1500 of the UN, so we'll want at least one, but Moscow should give us that next.

Tech: We can go for Liberalism to Astronomy, as per the original plan. France and China already have Paper, which makes me think that we won't be able to sandbag Liberalism to the point of getting Military Tradition with it, but maybe I'm wrong about this. Astronomy will widen our choice of next targets, and increase our tech rate. (Don't forget an observatory in St. Pete will let us hire another scientist there!) I still lean to Astronomy, but do we want to try something else?

Right now, I think we're more behind in military conquest than tech, so I'm now leaning toward Nationalism. (If we happen to get a Great Engineer from St. Pete, we could even rush the Taj, though I think we'd want to discuss that. Maybe even settling in Moscow could be good.

Tech Trading: We need to start trading for other techs here. We're going to need Drama for theaters when we start waging culture wars, Music for Military Tradition, and we need to Feudalism to see how far up the Feudalism-Guilds-Banking line the AI is. Subsidiary to this, is it worth trying for Economics? Does anyone have suggestions for trades I can/should make? I don't know we're going to get worst-enemy penalties for trading with. Another thought: if we get a great artist, is it worth trying to trade for Theology/Divine Right to unblock Nationalism for a lightbulb, or is this too much effort? Alternately, we could trade for Theology and lightbulb Divine Right to make Nationalism cheaper.

I don't have much advice here. On this map, I lean toward holding on to our techs as long as possible so as to slow down the AI's tech rate.

Heroic Epic: We can build the Heroic Epic now. However, I'm inclined to delay it, for two reasons. First, Pisae has marble, so we'll be able to build it at double-speed in not too many more years. Second, I think we ought to look at turning a city into a Heroic Epic/Globe Theater whipping center. The obvious candidate for this is Athens: with three clams, cows, water for irrigation, and nothing else, we can probably whip out a cossack every couple turns, and there's precious little else that city can do.

I like both delaying until marble and building both HE and Globe in Athens.

Any other things people want to raise are appreciated. I might play tonight, if I hear consensus on these issues.

I expect mostly horse archers and longbows from Caesar now. I hope I'm right. Cover those galleys up on the north coast with our caravel or his caravels will sink them. Build lots of cats. Maybe even horse archers for future upgrading to cossacks.

If cities are unhappy, run specialists. The faster we get to cossacks, the better. We might be able to engage Mao with mostly cossacks. I'd recommend taking Sparta, then Athens, then landing somewhere to sweep through China. If he takes Sparta from us, that's fine (but hold Athens!)

Not much else advice I can think of right now.

Oh...Hagia Sophia got built on my turnset. I was saddened. I forgot to mention it.

@ Compromise - I named the ships after Soviet era combatants that I used to have to memorize back in my flying days. For those who don't know: RMBS = Real Ms. Beyond's Ship.

Brilliant! I loved it.

That was excellent execution of the landing. Better than I could have imagined it could have gone. I learned some on your selection of which promotions to attack with at what time.

It went well. I got lucky with a cat win at <3% odds. And another cat withdrawal later, but then got paid back by the RNG when I lost a 95%+ horse archer attack on that accursed crossbow.


How does one delete a sign? For that matter, how do you post one?

Alt-S. Click on an unsigned square to add a sign; click on a signed square to delete the sign. You can't edit the signs, you can only replace them.

Edit - I love the idea of Athens as a HE/GT city.

Me too.

I think Alex has a nice target painted on his chest as our next foe. That gives us a nice stepping stone for the Incas.

I agree, but I think we need to take Mao before Huayna. We're now W(Rome), NW(Real Ms.), and soon N(Greece) of Mao. He'll be itching to attack soon enough and will likely come for us rather than Cyrus, Hatty or Huayna.

I think we should concentrate our attack on his cities closest to his presumed starting position south of Sparta and Athens. If we can use Sparta as bait and then amphibiously land south of Athens and south of Sparta, we can nail him quickly. Using caravels to discover his attack force gathering city will be very helpful (as it was with Rome!).

Domination Threshold Second, consider that we need to get about 60% of the population with 50% of the land.
Uh, please reread the limits I posted.

Just to verify...for a domination victory, we need to exceed both the population and land thresholds, so we're fine if we get loads of population as long as we don't grab (or keep) too much land.

If this misunderstanding isn't the source of LK's objection to trying to get backdoor domination without anyone else's votes, then I guess I simply don't understand why it seems impossible.

... There is another very component important to targets you didn't mention. Where can we pick up new sources of happy / health resources? This IMHO needs to be factored in when looking at targets. I would prefer not to get resources that will expire such as ivory.

Actually, I don't think Ivory will expire before we win (or lose).

...If we get the GS, I want to speed up printing press. The fastest we get the extra income from that, the better.

If we get stuck with an artist, it is hard to call. Divine Right is a complete waste of time IMHO. I would burn the artist on theology to get some value from it.

Agree about the GS; the artist I'd probably just save until Radio

Are we committed to taking out China? If not, I don't want Athens. I forgot who posted it, but they are right that China is going to be trouble if we land on his continent.

I think we should take out Mao next. He makes me nervous as a nearby, aggressive, high-score neighbor. (Well, as nervous as an archipelago AI can be, I guess :) )

agree that if we are going to kill Alex, we might as well kill Mao. Last I saw Mao was Christian though and that might cause some negative modifiers with our Christian friends.

Yes (my vote) on Alex, then Mao. But our "friends" may not stay Christian forever, and if we only declare war once, it's just a one or two diplo point penalty. I like the idea of switching to Free Religion asap, then choosing a religion while we're researching our last few techs if there's anyone we can get votes from by doing so.

I had an unexpectedly late dinner last night and was then too tired to do this game justice, so I'm playing this morning. I plan to do the following things:

1) Try to trade techs we don't have a monopoly on for techs we need. (Drama, Music, the Feudalism-Guilds-Banking line.) I will also look for trades that might raise our happy cap: it's pathetically low at the moment.

2) Use Liberalism to discover Astronomy and get observatories in St. Pete and Moscow.

3) Switch to Free Religion ASAP.

4) Run an engineer in St. Pete until the observatory comes up, at least.

4) If we get a great scientist, I will lightbulb Printing Press and research that to completion, then start on Nationalism. If we get a great artist or engineer, I will stash him for the team to decide what to do, then start Nationalism.

5) Prosecute the war against Rome.

6) Defer building the Heroic Epic until after Pisae and, possibly, Athens is conquered.

If you have comments, post now or forever hold your peace :P.

So are we going to decide whom is responsible for posting for the team in the below thread?


SGOTM 3 - Mid-game Spoiler - 500 AD AND All rivals known or dead

Compromise did a great job with our SGOTM2 spoiler, so if he has the time and the will to do it, I'd nominate him as our scribe.

The Executive Summary and Notes for the Next Player


Because of my laggardness last week and my worries about our overall pace, I played a lot of turns. It is now 1352. It was, in all honesty, a boring turnset, with most things going according to plan.
I reduced Rome to Ravenna and made peace. I kept the losses in the campaign to, I hope, acceptable levels.
I have six galleons full of troops off Alex's coast for the next player. They aren't organized, though.
Mao switched to Vassalage and Theocracy not many years ago. Mao has Guilds, horses, and iron, so knights. Mao also has Astronomy, so we don't have naval superiority--watch out!
We now have Liberalism, Astronomy, Nationalism, Printing Press, Drama, Music, Engineering, Feudalism, and Theocracy. We have 930 gold we can use to deficit-research Military Tradition.
The AI tech pace continues to blister. Several AIs have Divine Right and Guilds, the only techs we can see they have and we don't. On the last interturn, a great merchant was born in London--I suspect, though I don't know for certain, that it was the one from Economics.
We now have virtually complete knowledge of the map.
I tried not to make a hash of the diplomacy.
I have started Oxford in St. Petersburg. It has 65 turns to go to completion. I'm going to suggest we make an effort to speed this up, two ways: run an engineer in addition to scientists, and whip buildings with the intention of sending overflow to Oxford.
I've built some theaters for the Globe, but we need more. I suggest that when we need to start the wonder, whipping some in Roman cities to help start cutting down on the motherland unhappiness.
I switched to Free Religion.
I founded a city on an island west of the Roman one.
There is a one-square island northwest of ours that has two fish, and might be worth colonizing.
There is a barb city further northwest of our main island that might be worth capturing, for silver and sheep.
Lahore has revolted once. Next time, it will flip to us.
I think we have too many workers. All but one are on the Roman island.
I will continue to plead for people to try adjusting the governors to do what you want instead of microing the cities manually. We're about to have a lot more cities, which will mean both more required attention and more chances for suboptimality if one is not paying attention.


The barb city and the two-fish island:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6530/BarbAndIsland0000.jpg

Athens' defenses:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/566/Athens0001.jpg

Sparta's defenses:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/599/SParta0000.jpg

My Log

1172 AD: First, as per all my turns, I bring the cities back under the governor. I wish people would not try to manually micromanage the cities: it's easier and usually more efficient to manage the city using the governor. I reassign the engineer in Moscow and the scientists in St. Pete. St. Pete doesn't need a barracks, it needs a higher happy for the scientists we'll be running soon: I switch it to a Jewish temple. I switch Yaroslavl' to a barracks and turn off emphasize food so it assigns an engineer. I'll let Moscow finish its colosseum.

Mansa has furs and is willing to trade: with markets, that's +2 happy in every city, which is something we can use quite a bit. Mansa is so weak that having a higher happy cap won't make him a threat; and even though he's part of the Hindu bloc, he's very unlikely to be anyone's worst enemy. Thus, I open borders with him and trade gems for furs. Our Civil Service monopoly is long-gone, so I look for trades. Kublai is willing to trade with us, despite being annoyed. He's a Buddhist and strong enough he might someone's worst enemy, so I check the relationships: I'm pretty sure Victoria hates him, but she's a tech leader and won't trade with us anyways, so I don't see any reason not to anger her further. Most of our "friends" (Louis et al.) like Kublai. I trade CS and 150 gold for Feudalism. We have circumnavigation, so our world map is valuable, and we can use the gold for unit upgrades and deficit research, so I sell it off to a bunch of AIs: I start with Huayna (110 gold), Louis (60), and Cyrus (0, but this brings him to Cautious and opens up his willingness to trade Music). I trade Cyrus CS for Music.

Gandhi has nothing and is already pleased with us, Mao is only offering us 10 gold and hates us. I start looking at the offers from the bottom of the list. After a bit of contemplation, I decide to just sell it to everyone with fairly large amounts of money to offer, and hope that I don't rack up too many more WOE penalties. Hatty (270 + her map), Tokugawa (210), Kublai (100), Huayna (60 more), Louis (80 more), Monte (140), Saladin (90), Alex (140), and Mansa (30 gold). At the end of all this trading, we have 1992 gold in the bank, losing -76 per turn at 100% science with eight turns on Liberalism. I think our defense on the home island is a little excessive, so I upgrade two axes to maces and prepare to ship a spear to Caesar's island.

I move some boats around, and end the turn.

1178 AD: Nothing of note happens. I start the army healing, and trade our world map for Gandhi's. Victoria has developed Guilds, but won't trade with us. I try to trade Music with Washington for Theology, but he won't do it.

1184 AD: Frederick demands we cancel with Huayna; I refuse, since Frederick is impotent. Mao demands Philosophy, and I also refuse. I start moving units to Neapolis. Lahore revolts; when it revolts next, it will flip to us. I assign an engineer in Neapolis to decrease the chance of a scientist.

Roman galleys approach our clams at Yaroslavl', I block them.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/121/RomanGalleys0000.jpg

1190 AD: Christianity spreads to Moscow. A Roman galley sinks the RMBS Akula. I counterattack with our caravel and sink one galley, then sink the galley that won with the RBMS Kara. I move more of the army to Neapolis.

I discover a nice island out past the Roman lands that I decide to colonize later.

1196 AD: Caesar offers peace and 110 gold. I refuse.

He hits our stack with a catapult that withdraws, I kill it with a horse archer. I lose a spear and then a mace attacking a horse archer wandering near Neapolis at around 80% and 90% odds in succession. Another mace beats it, finally.

1202 AD: Scientist born in St. Pete, will lightbulb 2493/3588 of Printing Press. I put him to sleep. War weariness is starting to bite: Yaroslavl' has an unhappy citizen. Free Religion is two turns away, and will help with this problem. I bombard most of Neapolis' defenses.

1208 AD: A catapult hits Rome and wins vs. a horse archer at about 30% odds! (Argh!) I capture Neapolis with the loss of a suicide catapult and an unlucky mace, sinking (I think) the rest of Caesar's navy. I send more maces marching to Antium.

1214 AD: A horse archer hits Rome and kills a spear at 25% odds! We discover Liberalism and I choose Astronomy; a catapult suicides against the mace stack heading to Antium. I revolt to Free Religion and select Printing Press as our next tech.

I mass upgrade our galleys to galleons.

1220 AD: Cyrus offers whales for gems. I accept: he's part of the Christian bloc and our happiness problems are critical. Izzy offers 10 gold for a peace treaty; I refuse for the moment. Victoria rushes Angkor Wat with a GE.

RMBS Kanin (now a galleon) sinks a Roman galley. I move the army towards Antium.

I whip Rome's library, but one pop still starves because of motherland unhappiness + war weariness. I start a courthouse figuring the city won't be productive for awhile: next whip should be a library.

1228 AD: I refuse some irrelevant deals.

I put more units on the way to Antium. I move some units away from the area near Gandhi to send to garrison back-ranks cities, ship some workers over to the Roman island since they have nothing to do on our main island now, and send the caravels over to watch Mao and Alex. The RMBS Kara goes around to look at Antium.

I lightbulb Printing Press and start research, due in three turns.

1232 AD: I bombard Antium and move units into position. I kill a horse archer near Rome with a spear.

1238 AD: Our horse archer defeats a Roman horse archer in Rome. Frederick demands Compass; I laugh. Alex demands Astronomy, and I laugh again.

I blast down the remainder of Antium's defenses and send in a suicide cat. A mace wins at ~40% odds, another at ~60% (I guess this must be compensation for those earlier losses), another at ~80%, and then take the city with a catapult, figuring there are no other units in range to retake it (I hope).

1244 AD: Printing Press comes in and I start Nationalism. Antium holds.

I move the army into Antium to heal and guard it with a near-full-health mace, then advance on Cumae. I whip an observatory in Moscow.

I give Philosophy, Paper, and 260 gold to Hatshepsut for Engineering: this tech is off our beeline, but if we're going to be fighting more wars before cossacks, pikes and the +1 road movement will be quite useful. Both Philosophy and Paper were rapidly becoming devalued, and neither of them have any immediate military applications. We need to save up to start Nationalism, so I set science to 0% for the moment.

1250 AD: I whip out a settler in Yaroslavl', for the island off Rome's coast. I bombard Antium's defenses and move more units into position.

1256 AD: A settler, a worker, and a longbow embark the RMBS Kara for the island. I bombard the rest of Cumae's defenses, but it has four CG longbows in it so I defer the attack for a turn so more units can arrive. I move some boats next to Cumae to speed up the process of attacking Pisae.

Neapolis comes out of resistance and I whip a library there; again, one population will starve. I set Moscow to a monastery to increase our tech rate.

1262 AD: Neapolis starts a lighthouse.

I send a suicide cat into Antium. A CR3 mace dies at 93.5%, two CR1 maces dies at 64.2% and 66.7%, then four more maces and some cats win, taking the city. I lose another mace attacking a mace that was guarding the copper and might attack somewhere IBT, but another mace cleans it up. I begin shipping units to Pisae.

1268 AD: Caesar attacks Neapolis with a mace and loses.

I land near Pisae, which is now defended by a single longbow.

I start switching cities building military to longbows for garrisons.

1274 AD: Two of Isabella's galleys appear near our shore from Gandhi's direction. Louis has made peace with her, so I so no reason not to make peace ourselves, and pocket 10 gold in addition.

I pop a hut on the island west of Rome's island and get a bunch of warriors.

I land more troops near Pisae and bombard, while reversing the flow of troops in preparation for killing Greece.

I turn science back to 100%, with Nationalism due in seven turns.

1280 AD: A great engineer is born in Rome.

I finish bombarding Pisae, then maces win all the fights, capturing the city. I dial up Caesar: he offers me Drama, Theology, and his world map for peace. I begin moving troops off the Roman island and to our mainland, except for the Roman garrisons.

We now have a lot of workers on the Roman island. I'm tempted to delete some to save money, but I think I'll wait to hear the team's opinions.

1286 AD: Hatty begs Education. Um, no.

I found Yekaterinburg. The screenshot shows it in 1352 AD:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1035/Yekaterinburg0000.jpg

This is a nice fishing village with some production from the horses and lots of food, and the second border pop will bring in our source of whales, in case Cyrus decides to stop trading with us. (This is always a problem with Aggressive AIs.) It will also be safe from attack until Astronomy, at which point it should be able to provide its own defense if for some strange we're facing an attack from that direction.

1292 AD: Antium and Cumae come out of resistance; I whip a forge in Antium, a granary in Cumae. I shuffle troops towards Greece.

1298 AD: I christen a new RBMS Akula, and make Zim into the mainland shuttle.

1304 AD: Religion spreads in some of the Roman cities. I start bulldozing some immature cottages near Antium to make it into a production city.

1310 AD: Discover Nationalism, start Military Tradition. (Woo! Cossacks!)

Continue building up cities and moving troops.

1316 AD: Washington demands I cancel deals with the French--no way.

1322 AD: Vicky asks for open borders--I refuse for now. Montezuma demands 190 gold, and I laugh at him.

1328 AD: I finally whip an observatory in St. Pete, having burned off most of the previous whipping unhappiness and reached a size where I can afford to whip it again.

1334 AD: Mao adopts Vassalage and Theocracy. I'm guessing he's about to go to war with someone--anyone want to take guesses with who that might be?

1340 AD: Nothing of note.

1346 AD: I whip a university in Neapolis, completing our six.

1352 AD: I start Oxford in St. Pete. 65 turns to completion, sigh.

I finally assemble our six galleons full of troops off Alex's coast.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_AD1352_01.Civ4SavedGame

I'll try to edit in some screenshots later.

The Extremely Long, Extremely Boring Autolog


Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have captured Rome!!!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: You have discovered Music!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Tokugawa adopts Serfdom!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 252, 1172 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 253, 1178 AD: Victoria adopts Theocracy!

Turn 254, 1184 AD: Christianity has spread in Moscow.
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Ling Lun has been born in Paris!
Turn 254, 1184 AD: Louis Pasteur has been born in Beijing!

Turn 255, 1190 AD: Charles Darwin has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 255, 1190 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 256, 1196 AD: Ernest Rutherford has been born in St. Petersburg!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: St. Augustine has been born in Kumbi Saleh!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Gandhi adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Washington adopts Vassalage!

Turn 257, 1202 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Alexander adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: Victoria has made peace with Kublai Khan!

Turn 258, 1208 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (7.50)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Praetorian (4.90)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Julius Caesar's Praetorian is hit for 25 (42/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have captured Neapolis!!!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Spearman) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Sinan has been born in London!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 259, 1214 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond adopts Free Religion!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (32/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Victoria has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Marie Curie has been born in Washington!

Turn 260, 1220 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's RMBS Kanin (Galleon) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Julius Caesar's Galley is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Washington's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 261, 1226 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: St. Patrick has been born in Beshbalik!

Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Spearman) (4.26) vs Julius Caesar's Horse Archer (3.33)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Combat Odds: 76.1%
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Spearman) is hit for 17 (80/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Spearman) is hit for 17 (63/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Spearman) has defeated Julius Caesar's Horse Archer!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: You have constructed a Christian Temple in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer (7.20) vs The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) (6.60)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Combat Odds: 67.4%
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) has defeated Julius Caesar's Horse Archer!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Abu Bakr has been born in Teotihuacan!

Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult)!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (8.10)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 42.2%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 19 (71/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 19 (52/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 19 (33/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 19 (14/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (7.83)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 63.5%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (70/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (50/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (6.48)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 79.5%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (52/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (32/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (12/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Spearman (2.31)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 35 (52/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 35 (17/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) has defeated Julius Caesar's Spearman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Julius Caesar's Catapult (4.45)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 69.2%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 20 (69/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 20 (49/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 20 (29/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 20 (9/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Julius Caesar's Catapult is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) has defeated Julius Caesar's Catapult!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have captured Antium!!!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Shankara has been born in Alexandria!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Albert Einstein has been born in Cuzco!

Turn 264, 1244 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 264, 1244 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.

Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Christian Monastery.
Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have trained a Settler in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Catapult.

Turn 266, 1256 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 266, 1256 AD: You have constructed a Library in Neapolis. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 266, 1256 AD: Pytheas has been born in Kyoto!

Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult (5.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (11.70)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (5.13)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 93.5%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 24 (66/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman)!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (7.02)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 64.2%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (70/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (50/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (6.75)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 66.7%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 21 (69/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (4.95)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 94.4%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 22 (44/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 22 (22/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (5.17)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 97.7%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (46/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (23/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (5.61)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 93.9%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (28/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (8/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Maceman) has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult (5.00) vs Julius Caesar's Spearman (4.40)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 69.7%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 20 (68/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 20 (48/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 20 (28/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 20 (8/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Spearman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult has defeated Julius Caesar's Spearman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (0.63)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: You have captured Cumae!!!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) (9.60) vs Julius Caesar's Maceman (8.00)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 72.8%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman)!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Maceman (1.60)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Maceman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman (8.00) vs The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.80)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Combat Odds: 31.9%
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Julius Caesar's Maceman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Maceman!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Werner Heisenberg has been born in Madras!

Turn 268, 1268 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 268, 1268 AD: The borders of Rome have expanded!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Enrico Fermi has been born in Athens!

Turn 269, 1274 AD: You have made peace with Isabella!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The villagers are hostile!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Wilhelm Schickard has been born in Moscow!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Washington's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman (6.00)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman (5.28)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Combat Odds: 0.1%
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman (5.64) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman is hit for 12 (82/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Longbowman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) (8.80) vs Julius Caesar's Longbowman (6.30)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 84.5%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st wave (Maceman) has defeated Julius Caesar's Longbowman!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Horse Archer (5.45)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 89.3%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Horse Archer!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Julius Caesar's Archer (3.15)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Archer is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Archer is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Archer is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Julius Caesar's Archer is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Julius Caesar's Archer!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have captured Pisae!!!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have made peace with Julius Caesar!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Rosalind Franklin has been born in Berlin!

Turn 271, 1286 AD: Yekaterinburg has been founded.
Turn 271, 1286 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Catapult.

Turn 272, 1292 AD: You have constructed a Christian Monastery in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 272, 1292 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 272, 1292 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Antium. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 272, 1292 AD: Zhou has been captured by the Incan Empire!!!

Turn 273, 1298 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 273, 1298 AD: Buddhism has spread in Rome.
Turn 273, 1298 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Neapolis. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 273, 1298 AD: Judaism has spread in Neapolis.

Turn 274, 1304 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: The borders of Neapolis have expanded!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Neapolis. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Frederick adopts Vassalage!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Frederick adopts Serfdom!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Montezuma adopts Vassalage!

Turn 275, 1310 AD: You have constructed a Jewish Temple in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Theatre.

Turn 276, 1316 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 276, 1316 AD: You have constructed a University in Rome. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 276, 1316 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Pisae. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 277, 1322 AD: The borders of Antium have expanded!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Cyrus adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Louis XIV adopts Theocracy!

Turn 278, 1328 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 6
Turn 278, 1328 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Tokugawa adopts Theocracy!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Vassalage!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Theocracy!

Turn 279, 1334 AD: Saladin has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 279, 1334 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 7
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Rostov will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Taoism has spread in Yekaterinburg.
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Victoria adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Kobo-Daishi has been born in Washington!

Turn 280, 1340 AD: Louis XIV has 460 gold available for trade
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Mao Zedong has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Julius Caesar for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 11
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Rostov has grown to size 12
Turn 280, 1340 AD: You have trained a Horse Archer in Yaroslavl'. Work has now begun on a Pikeman.
Turn 280, 1340 AD: Rome has grown to size 6
Turn 280, 1340 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in Rome. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 280, 1340 AD: The borders of Yekaterinburg have expanded!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 281, 1346 AD: You have constructed a University in Neapolis. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 281, 1346 AD: Zhang Qian has been born in London!

I have more thoughts, but for now I'm going to write some stuff about our cities.

Moscow: is far below its happy cap and has a lot of tiles it's not working. We need to grow it as much as possible. Don't whip it unless it's an emergency. It's finished all its infrastructure so it can and should stay on military.

St. Petersburg: needs to strike a balance between growth, science/great person output, building Oxford, and whipping infrastructure, while not stacking unmanageable unhappiness, to boost its happy cap.

Rostov: doesn't have much production and is one of our key science cities. I think we shouldn't whip it and should keep it building commerce infrastructure.

Novgorod: produces a lot of commerce, but also a lot of production. I snuck in some infrastructure, but we may need it to build military if we go to war with Mao.

Yaroslavl': needs to remain on military for now, as it has no commerce infrastructure. Workshops suck unbelievably at this point in time, enough so I'd almost rather have put cottages there, but maybe they'll be useful later.

Arretium: This city is a junk fishing village, but has some production and a grassland I irrigated. I'd probably just have it build commerce infrastructure while growing.

Neapolis: is specialized as a commerce city/fishing village. I whipped in a library and a university to build Oxford and help push back the Indian culture. It's working on a theater for the same reason.

Rome: has an academy and several mature cottages, so should stay on commerce. I have it building a market for that reason, and I whipped in a library and university for the same.

Antium: has three hills and grasslands copper, so I respecialized as a production city by farming over hamlets. It should get essential infrastructure and a barracks, then probably start building units.

Cumae: has mature cottages, silk, and an academy but no food. I don't know what to do with this city. It can be a decent commerce city/fishing village, but it needs food for that. Maybe we should farm over the silk, or give it a farm from Antium, or both?

Pisae: is a junk fishing village. I wouldn't even have taken it if it wasn't on the main Roman island and had marble. It has no food and never will. We should give it a granary and a lighthouse, then have it start work on a courthouse while growing ad infinitum.

About the Roman territories in general: I think we should consider farming or cottaging over some of the silks. Silk is a terrible commerce resource, giving only +3 from the plantation; cottages have a much better long-run return, and farms could help some of the food-poor cities grow. We don't need the silks for trade (no one has resources they're willing to trade us, anyways), so why not put them to better use?

We should also look at overlapping tile allocation on the Roman continent: I didn't do much adjustment because most of those tiles weren't being worked due to whipping anyways, but moving the tiles around between cities might help get food to appropriate places and commerce to cities with improvements.

Yekaterinburg: is a commerce city. It needs a workboat, a granary, a workboat, and a lighthouse whipped in that order, then should whip and build commerce infrastructure.

In general, don't forget that cities with excess food can add scientists and engineers, particularly if they're near the happy cap. I was focused on whipping the Roman cities down to size, so I wasn't running many scientists there, but in the future we probably want some in the high-food cities.

I see it, and it is in the queue. However, I am not going to play until we have a team consensus for the next war.


I think we have too many workers. All but one are on the Roman island.
I will request that we DON'T delete any of them. I have seen people to rush to get rid of "excess" workers and get trashed from either pillages, or total lack of workers to get lumber mills / rails on-line.

I've only scanned the turnset report, but it looks like a good job, Iainuki. Good suggestions on the cities (and their governors!) too.

I'm all in favor of taking the great AlexMao continent next. Heroic Epic + Globe in Athens sounds like a winner.

And yes, I'd be willing to write our first spoiler, though it may take me a few days to get around to it.

Compromise (just just played)
greggo (where art thou?)
LKendter (UP)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)

I agree that Alex is the next to go, then Mao.

Iainuki, good job with the turnset. I'll take a look if I have more time later.

One member doesn't make a consensus, I will play tomorrow even if I don't hear more voices. I really want civs with health and luxury resources more that raw pop.

Alex has three cities, Sparta and Athens, which we would like to have now. And Thermopyle which would be difficult to support and defend early in a Chinese war. How about go to war with Alex and bring Mao in as an ally after Sparta is captured. Allow Mao to capture Thermopyle. Then we prepare for the Chinese war in earnest.

We need to continue to build our navy. Make sure we escort our ships. we don't need any land troops in Davy Jones' locker.

I'm not sure what "a lot of workers in Roman lands" means. Is that 5 or 20? If it is 20, by all means disband some. If it is five, I'd keep all of them. Somewhere in between, and I'd say that is a judgment call.

I still don't get the manner in which you guys play an SG. One plays five turns, another plays 30. Go figure.

Edit - Lee, Alex will be a strategic war rather than a war for resources. He will be good for island hopping to locations further away.

I also like the one and two tile cities. They add population while keeping our land count down.

Just as a reminder, we are half way through our time limit of three months. We shouldn't have any reason to worry, as we have moved at a very good pace. Other teams who are still in the BC era may have troubles, in my opinion.

On the war front, it's probably the best idea to take Alex and Mao out first. Lee, if you like, you could probably divert troops to the barb city to get silver and sheep. Do you have any other ideas for possible targets to attack next?

I've had a chance to look over Iainuki's post (though not the autolog). I'm amazed at the number of high-odds losses. I guess that happens sometimes.

There were just a few things I wanted to comment on. I liked the tech choices and the trading description. I also thought the settling of that triple-seafood horse island was genius. I'd probably drop a settler and a longbow on the double-seafood island too. Talk about high food-to-land ratios!

Regarding war, I think we should take Sparta and Athens. By adopting Vassalage and Theocracy, Mao is almost assuredly planning to declare war. I think we have a choice to make: Do we let him declare his war (possibly on us, possibly on someone else) or do we preempt his decision and declare on him first.

If he happens to declare on us, at least we wouldn't lose any diplo points with anybody for beating him up. If he declares on someone else, we will get some mutual struggle bonus points, but he'll probably choose a low-power civ whose attitude we don't care about anyway. The problem with letting him declare is that we can't choose the time and place of the encounter.

If we let him declare, then the only way we'll know what he's up to is to have a caravel find his "gathering point" city. On these island maps, I've found that the AI usually picks a single city and puts a bunch of galleons (or whatever the current troop transport vessel is) there and then fills them. You can tell if they are filled because the list will read, starting from the top, something like: Galleon, Maceman, Maceman, Longbow, Galleon, Maceman, Maceman, Galleon, Longbow, Longbow, Longbow. In this case, this means there is one full galleon, one with just two Maces in it, one empty and 3 longbows who will defend the city. When the AI fills all three galleons, it will set off and declare war when the stack reaches its target. (Later, there will be 2 or 3 frigates at the top of the list too who will serve as escorts.)

Using caravels, we should be able to find this city of Mao's. If we do, we can tell how far he is from attacking and--if we continue to watch--watch the task force pull anchor and sail off to the target. (Of course, if it's us, he'll declare quickly and sink our caravel right away, but at least we'll know.)

I think we should take Alex's two cities because that way, if Mao is after us, he'll probably attack those cities first. I hate powerful AIs (meaning in this game I dislike Mao and Hatty most of all). Since he has knights, we might want some pikes.

Just another quick note: the barracks in St Pete was a way to dissipate some whip anger in anticipation of a switch to Nationalism (barracks = 2 happies, IIRC). I suspect we'll want to go with Nationalism because we're about to have a spawling empire and we'll want to garrison all those cities with drafted--rather than attacking--troops. I should have made that note in my turnset report. (Of course, we may want to run Bureaucracy through another war or two.)

Regarding workers: I think 10 might be about the right number. That way, we can quickly chop forests (for granaries, courthouses and libraries) and build farms in newly captured cities. Are we still planning to run a specialist economy in the new cities?

Since I can easily see us deciding that Gandhi's cities need new management, I'd be happy with parking several warriors in Rome awaiting a future western front.

Regarding turnset length: While I was a bit surprised at how many turns Iainuki played, I don't have a problem with it. In game terms, he only did about two operations: finished the Roman war and prepared for the Greek war. Both were pre-approved by the team. (Of course, if Iainuki keeps losing so many 80%+ odds battles, he will be reassigned to logistics-only turnsets!) War is tedious in Civ, and I certainly don't mind someone with the inclination taking on a greater share of the clicking.

One more war point: Do we know where Mao's horse are? We could stop his knight-making fairly quickly with a concentrated assault....

Re: Mao's target. I think the easiest way to decide whether he'll attack you will be a check of the power graph. The AI tends to want 2-3 times as much power as the human target before declaring a planned war. I'm not looking at the saves, but given that you're in war-mode there's a good chance he won't feel far enough ahead.

Re: Alex. Forest directly outside Athens? Off with his head!

Something I forget to mention in my post is that I moved our caravels back to keep watch on all Mao's possible egress points and on Athens. Once we capture Athens, that will free up a caravel to go find Mao's gathering-point city.

Here are my feelings about the next turnset:

1) I think we should definitely take out Sparta and Athens. His main cities are small and quite close to our capital, so should be productive acquisitions. They also occupy a good strategic position, close to the Incan/Egyptian/Malinese island and blocking that channel. I think the question of whether we take Thermopylae is related to whether we want to attack Mao next.

I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.

2) I'm still hesitant about fighting Mao. However, it looks like we may not have a choice: he's all but certain to declare war on someone, and I would say there are very good odds that it's us. If that's what's going to happen, I'd rather pick the time and place than allow him to. I agree with Compromise: taking the Greek cities means that we get to fight him on his island, which is preferable to fighting him on ours. Any more information about Mao's intentions, victim and time, would be good.

3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?

4) If at all possible, try to trade for Guilds before starting Gunpowder research so we get the discount and can upgrade horse archers to cavalry. (You need knights before you can upgrade horse archers to cavalry, IIRC.)

I think that's most of the stuff that's going to come up in the next turnset. I think we want to talk about civics choices (Mercantilism, Free Market, Nationalism--anything else?) and research directions in the near future, but I don't think that's going to come up while you're playing, LKendter. For the moment, our tech path is clear: Military Tradition, then Gunpowder. If we do want to switch to Nationalism, I don't think we should do it yet.

We need to continue to build our navy. Make sure we escort our ships. we don't need any land troops in Davy Jones' locker.

Unfortunately, galleons are our best ships at the moment. Does anyone know if unloaded ships are preferentially selected in a stack? We probably do need more, though--I didn't build any, but I thought we had adequate numbers for the invasion of Greece, which was my focus.

Something I forget to mention in my post is that I moved our caravels back to keep watch on all Mao's possible egress points and on Athens. Once we capture Athens, that will free up a caravel to go find Mao's gathering-point city.

Ah, cool.

1) I think we should definitely take out Sparta and Athens. His main cities are small and quite close to our capital, so should be productive acquisitions. They also occupy a good strategic position, close to the Incan/Egyptian/Malinese island and blocking that channel. I think the question of whether we take Thermopylae is related to whether we want to attack Mao next.

I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.

I guess I don't much of an opinion on the order. Whatever best sets us up to attack Mao, I suppose.

2) I'm still hesitant about fighting Mao. However, it looks like we may not have a choice: he's all but certain to declare war on someone, and I would say there are very good odds that it's us. If that's what's going to happen, I'd rather pick the time and place than allow him to. I agree with Compromise: taking the Greek cities means that we get to fight him on his island, which is preferable to fighting him on ours. Any more information about Mao's intentions, victim and time, would be good.

Must...kill...Mao....

3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?

I haven't looked at the save yet. Do we have a monopoly on Nationalism? I'm thinking that if no industrious/marbled civ can build the Taj, I don't mind doing so. Otherwise, let's sweep to victory.

4) If at all possible, try to trade for Guilds before starting Gunpowder research so we get the discount and can upgrade horse archers to cavalry. (You need knights before you can upgrade horse archers to cavalry, IIRC.)

Hadn't thought about that. Good thinking.

I think that's most of the stuff that's going to come up in the next turnset. I think we want to talk about civics choices (Mercantilism, Free Market, Nationalism--anything else?) and research directions in the near future, but I don't think that's going to come up while you're playing, LKendter. For the moment, our tech path is clear: Military Tradition, then Gunpowder. If we do want to switch to Nationalism, I don't think we should do it yet.

I agree with the delay for Nationalism. It may or may not be worth using since it will cost us population. I lean toward Mercantilism, but only slightly.

3) I think we should talk about building the Taj Mahal. Our empire is a pretty decent size now, we have marble, and a golden age would help us plow through the rest of Military Tradition and Gunpowder, while giving us some production for wars. However, it's still a pretty decent chunk of production, about 525 hammers IIRC. What are other peoples' feelings about this?


I already figured it was started the second we got Nationalism. Especially with marble that is an auto pilot move. I full plan to start this on my turn set - any city preferences? IIRC it gives us ugly artist points. I am at work, and can't check that.

I already figured it was started the second we got Nationalism. Especially with marble that is an auto pilot move. I full plan to start this on my turn set - any city preferences? IIRC it gives us ugly artist points. I am at work, and can't check that.

Perhaps I have always misunderestimated the value of the Taj. Okay, I'm game. How about Novgorod?

Novgorod sounds good for the Taj Mahal to me. It's one of our best production cities, and as long as we don't contaminate St. Pete or Moscow, we should be good. If we want, there's a forest at St. Pete we could chop to speed up the Taj, but I'm not sure that's wise this late in the game. Whipping it when it's time, though, is probably a good call.

I see three courses in attacking Alex: Sparta first, Athens first, or both simultaneously. We have enough forces to overwhelm either of the single cities, especially Athens because it only has three longbows and a pike, IIRC. Taking Athens first lets us get a head start on building the Heroic Epic and the Globe, but has the issue that Alex might get to send out the ships from Sparta on pillaging runs. Sparta first is probably safer, but will make conquering Athens slower because Sparta has actual defenders. Both at the same time is more risky, but with Athens' weaknesss there's good odds we can take it and then move the units from it to Sparta. In any event, if possible, I think we want to park some galleons to blockade Sparta's harbor to prevent pillagers from leaving.
I am against spliting forces at this time. Civ IV penalizes yu for having wounded units. If Alex makes any counter against our landing, the success of the ensuing attack is in jeopardy.

The almost every time in history that dividing forces has been successful has been when there is a major element of surprise.

Unless we have some overwhelming force to land two forces with, let's keep everyone together. We won't be surprising Alex.

While we are guarding against a pillaging force, watch the harbor of Thermopyle as well.

Guys, I took a look at the game. I am totally unwilling to declare war with our current empire shape. Even single city is stripped down to a lone defender with ZERO mobile reserves. There is simply no way I can force myself to declare war with this horrid defense. This is especially true with a lot of the units our obsolete.

Your choices are skip me this round if you want war with Greece now, or let me play 15 turns of rebuilding our military and building up city defenses. We only have two cities on military, and this is totally unacceptable to me for a Greek war when that greatly increases the odds of a war with Mao.

I'd prefer not to skip you, LK. I think you should do what you think is best.

I haven't looked at the save, but I know that when I'm on a rampage, most of my cities have one defender. (But maybe not every last one of them.) After we take care of Alex and Mao, I can't imagine getting sneak attacked for the rest of the game.

Lee, you are an experienced player. If you think it is the best choice to spend some time rebuilding and developing before we continue, then by all means, go ahead! There is no need to skip anyone when there are differences in opinion. We should just trust and respect every player's decisions and opinions. Go ahead and play your turnset the way you see fit, then we'll plan our warpath after that. Heck, a turnset of rebuilding will probably make planning easier for us. :)

It's late and I need to sleep, so I'm going to try to be brief here.

First, there are no ships in Thermopylae, so we don't need to worry about blockading it.

Second, Lee, you and I obviously have very different styles.

Let me explain the logic I've been using. At this point, we have five immediate neighbors: Mao, Alex, Gandhi, and Victoria, and Hatty. If you will look at the power graph, we're above all of them but Hatty and Mao. Vicky, Hatty, and Gandhi are all very pacifistic personalities, in my experience: I can't remember any occasions when I've faced a backstab from them. Hatty shares a land border with Huayna, who she dislikes more than us. None of those powers, except Mao, has "too much on my hands." The only more distant power I fear is Isabella, but she's below us on the power graph, doesn't have enough on her hands, made peace with us not many years ago, and has closer borders with other AIs she dislikes. Even if she were to attack, she would hit Yekaterinburg and the Roman island first, not our core, and we could afford to buy time with space, recapturing cities later. Thus, my assessment of the diplomatic situation is that we should expect a war with Mao soon, once he's built enough troops, but not immediately, because he just switched to Vassalage and Theocracy; and that no one else is going to attack us.

I run a very light defense because units sitting in cities don't do any good. I rely on civics, upgrading, and knowing when the AI's going to attack for defense. Right now, in an emergency situation, I think we could whip, and if necessary, switch to Nationhood and draft, enough units to beat off an offensive. We also have a large cash buffer to upgrade obsolete units into real defenders in an emergency.

I think that a war with Greece is going to be very short. Once we take Sparta and Athens, it's over, and we have adequate forces on hand to do that. My emphasis at this point is speed: we need to be gaining ground. Also, because we're racing against the other teams, I think we need to take some risks to do this. My calculation is that Mao isn't ready to attack now, so we have time to build forces before then, and adding Alex's cities would help us. I'd hoped this was a risk worth taking.

Because this is an archipelago map, we have few cities with any real production. Several of our cities are so slow at building anything that it doesn't really matter what they're building. (Pisae, Arretium, and Cumae, for instance.) If you count strict numbers of cities, the numbers look thin, but if you count hammers, with our two best production cities on military, about half our per-turn hammers are going to build military units. As soon as Antium finishes its lighthouse, I think it should start or whip a barracks, and then go onto military from there; at that point, about 60% of our hammers would be going to military.

I can see an argument for building more units in our mobile reserve, but I strongly feel that we shouldn't be garrisoning our cities with anything more than obsolete units, one per city. We know where the attack is coming from, let's fight Mao on our terms and make sure that it doesn't matter what we're using to police our cities with.

Lurker's comment :

Mao is a weird guy. I've had games where he had something on his hands
for ages and nothing happened. If you increase your military this can be
your situation for ages. Also if you plan to attack him remember the
defensive pacts and later the permanent alliances will soon come into play.

Iainuki's summarizes very well the approach I would lean toward (much more articulately than I could have put it!). But I think it's best to have both his and Lee's techniques on the table for discussion. Good intel can substitute for preparedness.

As this is a succession game, I think the most important thing is the discussion and being open to other's opinions. In the end, though, it is up to the turnset player to decide what to actually do.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the paper-thin defense. Especially if we have some info on what Mao is up to.

I will take my turn tonight. I will declare war on Greece with the provision that I am changing civics to Nationalism turn 1 and I will draft the cities hard if I even think a ship may land.

I will land first to take our Heroic Epic / Globe Theater / draft abuse city. We appear to have agreed on Athens. With building both of those we will quickly have large amount of Russian culture in those cities.


It looks like I am picked a tough match for team members. I totally disagree with the paper thin defenses that two of the other members like. I have been screwed to many times on guessing the diplomatic situation and getting an unexpected war front. I still plan to and thicken our homeland defenses.

I actually think Nationalism is a good compromise and allows some decent resistance in the event of a surprise attack.

Iainuki put it well early on when he said that an unpleasant fact of the "game of the month"-style of competition is that the winning team will probably have attempted a risky strategy and had it pay off. Some teams who attempt a risky strategy will get burned and not win, but playing it safe all the time probably guarantees that we won't finish first.

We may even have not risked enough since we've started our assault on the AIs rather late. But, we'll see. Maybe Kodii is right about many of the other teams, and they won't be able to finish in the 3-month time deadline!

Good luck, LK. Looking forward to reading your turnset report.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_AD1400_01.Civ4SavedGame

1352 AD
We have 12 cities, and just 10 workers. I disagree that we have to many. If anything, we are going to be short when lumber mills and rails arrive. I certainly don't want to work under the assumption that we win the UN vote the first time.

I swap Novgorod to Taj Mahal. If we didn't already decide to save the GE for the UN, I would rush this with him.

Since we let Rome live I am going to push ASAP theaters there. We need to 2 more for the Globe, and the faster we get culture in Roman cities the sooner the draft is a valid option.

Looking at the relationships screen, my big worry is turning out to be true. We have *zero* potential votes from other civs at this time.

I revolt to nationalism. Now I need to get the former Roman cities eligible for the draft.



1358 AD
(IT) I tell Gandhi to shove his demands.


1364 AD
The insanity begins, and I declare war on Greece. Now I need to pray a stray ship of his isn't near former Rome, since the draft doesn't work yet in those cities.


1370 AD
Athens falls at the cost of 2 catapults. Stupid city lacks a barracks, so it will take longer then I want to get Heroic Epic on-line.


1376 AD
(IT) Silly Victoria expects us to cancel deals with the Inca whom like us better.
Then Washington with lousy relations expects astronomy for free. :rotfl:


1382 AD
Well this is a pain I didn't think about. The Chinese borders just totally engulfed Athens.


1388 AD
(IT) The Germans are trash, and Louis at least somewhat likes us. I cancel all deals with Germany.
Mongolia hates us, so I refuse to give him printing press. He then proceeds to declare war on Cyrus.

Well here is a bonus conquest. One tile toward domination is worth another city. :)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7432/lak1217px6.jpg


1394 AD
I really hate binary science. I calculated one turn off, and don't know if I can finish MT with cash on hand.
(IT) Here comes the idiocy. I am so tired of Civs offering worthless divine right in my games.



1400 AD
Of course, the forums have to be down at the moment. Well so much for confirming what the scientist is to be used for.

I give Huayna liberalism to get guilds, and $170. The only thing available now is divine right.

Sparta is captured. It solves the problem of 100% cash for the final turn of MT.


Rather then delay the game another night I am stopping here. I couldn't get to forums to figure out where to head past Greece.


=======================

Summary:



Turn 282, 1352 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 282, 1352 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond adopts Nationhood!
Turn 282, 1352 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 282, 1352 AD: Washington adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 282, 1352 AD: Washington adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Rome. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Neapolis. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Isabella has completed The Spiral Minaret!

Turn 284, 1364 AD: You have declared war on Alexander!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: The borders of Yaroslavl' have expanded!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Antium. Work has now begun on a Theatre.
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Blaise Pascal has been born in Pi-Ramesses!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!

Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 1.8%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult)!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (4.62)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 95.3%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 24 (57/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 24 (33/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 24 (9/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (5.10)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 93.7%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (58/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (35/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (12/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (4.35)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (35/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (12/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.80) vs Alexander's Pikeman (4.41)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Combat Odds: 98.0%
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 26 (55/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 26 (29/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 26 (3/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 285, 1370 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Pikeman!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have captured Athens!!!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on Oxford University.
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have constructed a Observatory in Rostov. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 285, 1370 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Antium. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Wang Xizhi has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Hatshepsut's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 285, 1370 AD: Alexander converts to Christianity!

Turn 286, 1376 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 8 on the next turn
Turn 286, 1376 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Arretium. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 286, 1376 AD: The borders of Cumae have expanded!

Turn 287, 1382 AD: St. Petersburg has grown to size 8
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Neapolis will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Serfdom!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 288, 1388 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Mansa Musa has 580 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Isabella has 280 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Mao Zedong has 240 gold available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Huayna Capac has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 12 on the next turn
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Arretium will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Neapolis has grown to size 4
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Andrei Sakharov has been born in Karakorum!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Montezuma has declared war on Cyrus!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Montezuma adopts Theocracy!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa, Saladin
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Lahore has revolted and joined the Russian Empire!

Turn 289, 1394 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Frederick for Open Borders
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your 1st Wave has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 85%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your 1st Wave has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 60%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your 2nd Wave has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 45%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 30%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 15%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 0%!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Cyrus has 60 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Tokugawa has 190 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Louis XIV has 350 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Huayna Capac has 170 gold available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Victoria has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 289, 1394 AD: St. Petersburg celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Great Scientist has been born in St. Petersburg!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 12
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Rostov will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Arretium has grown to size 3
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Rome will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 289, 1394 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Mecca!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa, Hatshepsut

Turn 290, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Alexander's Maceman (10.00)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 0.9%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 1st Wave has caused collateral damage! (5 Units)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult)!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 1st Wave has died trying to attack a Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult (5.00) vs Alexander's Maceman (9.97)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 2.0%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (5 Units)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 13 (73/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 13 (60/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 13 (47/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman has defeated The Real Ms. Beyond's Catapult!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Maceman (4.79)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 96.2%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 24 (60/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 24 (36/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 24 (12/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (3.88)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 98.9%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 26 (55/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 26 (29/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 26 (3/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman (8.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (6.31)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 80.8%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 21 (60/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 21 (39/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 21 (18/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Maceman has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Alexander's Longbowman (5.10)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 42.0%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 1st Wave has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 18 (63/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 18 (45/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 1st Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 1st Wave has withdrawn from combat with a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) (5.00) vs Alexander's Pikeman (4.96)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 64.1%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 18 (54/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 18 (36/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 18 (18/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Pikeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Catapult) has defeated Alexander's Pikeman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 2nd Wave has destroyed a Pikeman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) (6.60) vs Alexander's Maceman (5.45)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 84.3%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 17 (30/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 17 (13/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Maceman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's 2nd Wave (Horse Archer) has defeated Alexander's Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your 2nd Wave has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Alexander's Longbowman (4.05)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Combat Odds: 96.1%
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (25/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (5/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Alexander's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The Real Ms. Beyond's Horse Archer has defeated Alexander's Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: Your Horse Archer has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: You have captured Sparta!!!

Real life is swamping me today. Looks like a good turnset. Did you keep Lahore? (I didn't know we had the choice to disband it!)

The swamping of Athens in Chinese culture implies that Mao is our next target. Do we have the forces to do it?

And we now have a great scientist to use up, is that right? I recommend saving him until we make a run for Sci Method, Physics, Electricity. It seems to me that we could save money for a long time to do that.

Real life is swamping me today. Looks like a good turnset. Did you keep Lahore?

Yes, I guess my comment wasn't clear enough.

I tink we need a lot more military before we do much of anything else. Please take with with the newbie grain of salt: If this was a personal game, I'd have at least two of my top five cities building military at all times. if we aren't producing a vet unit every three turns or so, we are painting a target on our chest. We need to shuttle those guys over to Greece as soon as they are trained.

More military might be a very good idea, especially against an AI leader like Mao.

Just to throw a little wrench into the works: Should we consider Rome--instead of Athens--for our Globe/Heroic Epic City? It has seafood, pigs, farmable land and an iron mine.

EDIT: Oops. I miscounted the food surplus (I had counted surplus at Athens and total food at Rome). Athens is the better spot. However, if we're concerned about a delay or if we don't want to worry about Mao, Rome is an alternative.

Moscow is on permanent military duty. In fact, in shipped more units over to Greece during my turn. In addition iron island city is also slowing building them. With that city in growth config it is taking it awhile.

This is part of the reason I did agree to hit agree against my better judgement. We need to get our heroic epic city going. Athens should be able to take constant whipping and / or draft after globe theater.

Okay, I've had a bit more of a chance to look at the save. I think we're in pretty good shape. The religious fracturing of the world has kept any band of AIs from getting together and getting too much technological headway. I hope it stays that way. Our tech lead looks great.

There's no way our current military is going to work with Mao. We need cossacks before we take him on. It looks like we're about 10 turns or so--since we need gunpowder too--from starting our buildup.

On the Roman continent, I think Antium and Rome need to be devoted to military. (Why is the former building a library and the latter a marketplace?) Neapolis might be able to fight back some Indian culture with a theater. But maybe not enough to get the 2nd seafood.

If we make peace with Alex as soon as he'll talk, that will likely incur another "war on our friend" with Gandhi and maybe others. We might not get their votes after all.

Our military cities can build catapults until cossacks are available. Other cities should probably build granaries, courthouses, harbors and maybe libraries. Then, they should just pump longbows to serve as city garrisons in newly captured cities. No need for barracks. If they have any kind of food, they can run scientists with a library. Cities with decent production can build a barracks instead of a library and then crank cossacks.

Only well-cottaged AI cities should get much of a commerce infrastructure. The rest just need to reduce their costs via courthouses and harbors, then grow while producing garrison troops.

I think we should grab that northern island and have it build a granary and workboats. With all the religions in the world, it should have one spread to it before too long.

For the tech plan, we have a great scientist and a great engineer. Do we want to use the engineer to rush the Taj or save it for the UN? My original thinking was that we wouldn't build the Taj, but now that we've decided to do so, we should think about when it would be best to do it. We could time the building of the Taj with the discovery of gunpowder. Then, we could build cossacks at a good clip.

The UN is 1500H and an engineer will probably give us ~1200 of that. That's a lot of turns, so we should consider which will slow us down the most: acquiring cities or building the UN.

I suggest stockpiling great scientists and cash after we get MT/gunpowder. Our next techs are Sci Method, Physics(gives GS), Electricity (can burn GS), Radio and Mass Media. The only other techs I can see wanting are Banking/Economics for Free Trade (I've changed my mind, I like FT better than mercantilism) and chemistry for Frigates.

That means that after gunpowder, we don't need any other techs for our military strategy. And the next tech--Sci Method--will hurt us by obsoleting the Great Library. We could literally stockpile cash (our commerce cities should have markets in them and maybe grocers too) until we have enough cash to research all 5 techs at once. Why hurry Sci Method? Any scientists we discover will be happy to hurry our research on Sci Method, Physics and Electricity.

I forgot to look to see where the Great Lighthouse is. Do we know? Is it capturable? We don't plan to get Corporation, so it could last the rest of the game for us.

We should continue to keep an eye out for places where we can plant cities that will have good seafood. Working seafood plus maybe a few farms is a good way to get population without much land. There might be some spots on Mao's island.

It's looking like I might not get another chance to look at the save over the weekend. I hope I saw enough.

EDIT:
Okay, I glanced at the save again: Cuzco (Inca) has the Great Lighthouse. That's now a big priority for me. Two extra trade routes in every city is 4 (base) -6 (w/cheap harbor) gpt per city. That will basically finance our expansion. If, while we're building up our cossack forces, Mao attacks someone else, we should consider leaving him alone and attacking Huayna first instead.

Also, looking at the UN which has no production doubler: Moscow has a max production of 18hpt base, plus 25% for a forge. That's 22hpt. The 1200H a Great Engineer will likely give us is...55T! Wow. I doubt we'll save 55 turns by going to a golden age, so I'm leaning toward saving the great engineer. Switching back to Bureaucracy brings that to 31hpt, saving us about 15T. We could build some workshops at the end to make that a little better. But still, we're looking at around 30T minimum that a single great engineer is going to save us at the end of the game.

I haven't had the time to take a really good look. I think we need to prepare a war as soon as we can get our Cossacks out. Is Mao the consensus? Or would we rather go for the Incans? Because of the steps and choices we have made, we probably have to depend on ourselves to win diplomatically. Remember this:

The AI has three choices: Vote for us, vote for our opponent, abstain.

From the way it sounds, only the really good friends of our opponent will vote for them, we vote for ourselves and everybody else abstains. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen, especially for the Secretary-General vote. We WILL get some votes, especially if an AI hates our opponent.

The actual Diplomatic Victory vote will be different. A lot of AIs will abstain, but theres also the possibility that they'll vote for us if they don't like/hate our opponent and like us. For example, Louis.

The next person to play will probably just build, and tech up to Cossacks. If we continue not to hear from grangerm for a while, I'll play.

Hey, sorry for being MIA. I will be able to play this weekend, though I will be out of town (again!) from Jan 29-Feb 2.

I don't think there's that much to talk about. As people have noted, we aren't ready to wage war on Mao, this turnset should just be getting ready to build some cossacks. Does anyone know if knights being built will automatically convert to cossacks when we get gunpowder? Not a big deal, but we can save a couple turns on a couple cossacks.

I like that the last player started the theatre in Athens. I'm pretty sure we get a turn of production coming out of resistance, so we can whip it w/o the penalty the first turn. It's always a good idea to tell resisting cities what to do even before they come out of resistance (at least I think :)).

I think Mao next is a no brainer. Even if we plan to go after HC next, we should take out northern China to get a better foothold on the continent. The only problem with Mao is that two of his friends are Louis and HC, two of our best friends. They'll surely give us a -1 for declaring.

What about the Forbidden Palace? Have we had any discussions about where/when?

I am in favor of saving our GE for the UN.

According to what I see our next GS will get us Sci. Method, then Physic