What do people think about giving the Mongols a GG when they spawn?

Or maybe spawn a GG already attached to a Keshik (so players don't just do somehting boring like create a military instructor). I think it is definitely historical, makes good use of a new warlords feature, and would help the Mongols out a bit.

Or what about historically spawning great generals in general?

Like in 1798 (or whenever) give France a GG (or a GG attached to a Musketeer when France invents gunpowder). Or give the Spanish a GG Conquistador.

Just a thought.

Yes, Mongols definately need a boost.

Not a bad idea, Ozzy.

List of Great General spawnings:

Egypt: ??
Babylonia: Nebuchadnezzar
India: ??
China: Some classical military leader
Greece: Pyrrhus maybe, or Pericles
Persia: Darius
Rome: Julius Caesar or someone who conquered Middle East
Japan: Any great Shogun
Carthage: When Hannibal is the leader, we have to think about something else.
Vikings: William de Normandie (Norse people controlled Normandy)
Spain: Hernan Cortéz
France: Napoleon Bonaparte
England: Admiral Nelson
Germany: Frederick the Great or Frederick(?) Barbarossa
Russia: Ivan III (unified Russia)
Aztecs: ??
Incas: Someone who conquered Chimú.
Mali: Maybe some great general of Songhai
Mongolia: Babur, Timur, the list is endless.
Ottomans: Suleyman the Great
America: Someone knows more about this than me.

I don't know about giving civs great generals to start to solve the mongol's problem... (I'm for changing the UP to something more like what the Persians have...) But should you start including generals with the civs, thought I'd help you out a bit...

Egypt - since Ramesses II is the leader, maybe use Seti I (Ramesses II's father)

India - there's a bunch you could use but I know know if any would really be considered "Great": Bimbisara, Chandragupta Maurya, Simuka, Kanha, Stakami I, Vashishiputra Satakarni, Vima Takto, Samudragupta, Chandragupta II, Thanesar, Someshvara I... There's just so many...

China - could use Sun Wu (Sun Tzu) or Sun Ping

Rome - could use Scipio Africanus

Japan - I don't know any shoguns, but there are plenty of japanese military leaders to choose from world war II... Iwane Matsui, Tadamichi Kuribayashi, or Mitsuru Ushijima... OR go Great Admiral with Isoroku Yamamoto or Chuichi Nagumo...

Carthage - Maybe Gisgo? or Bostar? I can't remember if those names are right...

England - Could be Oliver Cromwell or Arthur Wellesley if you don't want to use an Admiral...

Aztec - Would have to be Cuitlahuac...

Inca - Maybe Atahualpa?

And America - George Washington, Winfield Scott, Samuel Houston, Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, John Joseph Pershing, Omar Nelson Bradley, Douglas MacArthur, Dwight David Eisenhower, George S. Patton, H. Norman Schwarzkopf... Here's an endless list if I ever saw one...

I didn't choose for America, coz I knew that someone would say "Hey, XXX is better!" and after that someone says "But UUU is even better!"

Good sugestions, NitroJay. I'd like to use victorious generals for every country, so I hope that Japan would get non-WWII GG. Napoleon kinda won, after all he almost unified Europe.

And wasn't Atahualpa the last Inca emperor, and was killed by Spanish? Doesn't sound that great to me...

Well, trying to think of a Great General for the inca's is like trying to find an innocent stripper... I remember something about Atahualpa reuniting the Incas after a civil war... But other than that, I don't know much else... I gave him a maybe anyway...

EDIT: As for America, if you had to choose just one, stick with Washington. No one can argue with the $1 bill...

Washington wasn't all that successful as a general though.

I think Grant, Eisenhower or MacArthur would be better.

Carthage : Hamicar
it's Hannibal's father, who conquered spain for Carthage, or his brother, I not sure. But I think his brother was Hasbrubal.
Anyway, Hannibal's father made him to hate Rome.
Germany : a WWII general would be better I think, Gudurian or so, he is the Blitz Krieg developer for Germany.

see someone can argue with $1 :)

It's a fun game to play, figuring out great generals, but why? In the Mongols case it makes sense. Does any other civ have a gameplay reason for this to occur?

Germany : a WWII general would be better I think, Gudurian or so, he is the Blitz Krieg developer for Germany.

Germany lost WWII, it isn't that great achievement, though blitzkrieg is pretty unique.

It's a fun game to play, figuring out great generals, but why? In the Mongols case it makes sense. Does any other civ have a gameplay reason for this to occur?

I thought about Great People, so nations would be more unique. In that case we could determine which nations are cultural(GA), religious(GP), militaristic(GG), financial(GM) and industrial(GE).

I have been thinking about that too. I suggested earlier to lat the Arabs start with a GP, but giving all civs a Great Person to start with would be nice.

Maybe not at start, but at their Golden Age(either Golden Age in game or in real life).

Eh, I threw some General names out there, but I don't think giving the mongol's (or anyone really) a free GG is really the solution... The UP they have now is just too weird for me. Someone mentioned it before, playing as the mongols is just a "scout around for the biggest city to raze..." I can't imagine the AI even really knowing how to use that, and I prefer the Persian's UP since I can keep the cities I invade...

India - there's a bunch you could use but I know know if any would really be considered "Great": Bimbisara, Chandragupta Maurya, Simuka, Kanha, Stakami I, Vashishiputra Satakarni, Vima Takto, Samudragupta, Chandragupta II, Thanesar, Someshvara I...

Ah good, someone else loves India. :D

I can understand the point of giving newborn civs a great general, when they are just about to start their world conquest. And the Mongol's situation is pretty unique. Genghis clearly was the most succesful great general of history.

But was is the point in giving an established civ a great person for free? They have ample options of getting them anyway.

For the incas, Pachacuti. He transformed the "kingdom" of cuzco into the incan empire.

he was nothing compared to the khan IMHO...

I can understand the point of giving newborn civs a great general, when they are just about to start their world conquest. And the Mongol's situation is pretty unique. Genghis clearly was the most succesful great general of history.

But was is the point in giving an established civ a great person for free? They have ample options of getting them anyway.

Yea I'm not convinced either about giving it to everyone (and I first suggested it). Even my thought at the time wasn't to give it to every civ, but just a few civs with the best conquerors (Alexander, Napoleon, Cortez, Genghis). But maybe that'd be unbalancing, I dunno. Either way I think giving one to the Mongols is a great idea.

It could be tied to the UHV's... If the Mongols conquer China by whatever the date is, they could get a GG, representing Genghis. If Spain is the first one to found a city in the Americas, they could get a GG representing Cortez, with which to crush the aztecs (ha, like that would happen).

McA123, you upgraded the idea greatly.

This list links to post #3, tells when GG's would appear:

Egypt: At the starting moment(may help them surviving barbs).
Babylonia: When Shushan is captured
India: Whole India is under Indian culture.
China: War is won against Japan
Greece: Turkey is under Greek culture
Persia: Mesopotamia is under Persian rule
Rome: Carthage is conquered
Japan: Korea is conquered
Carthage: North Africa/Spain is under Carthage
Vikings: Inverness is conquered/Iceland is Viking/first to found a city in America
Spain: First to found a city in America
France: Conquer city from Spain and Germany(Napoleonic wars).
England: War against Spain is won(Nelson).
Germany: Whole Austria&Prussia is under Germany
Russia: Siberia is colonized
Aztecs: War won against power of old world(requires battles)
Incas: Same as above
Mali: Area of Songhai&Mali&Ghana is Malinese
America: War is won against England.

Hmm... I don't know... I mean, after China conquers Japan or Persia conquers the middle east, I figure the unit experience gained will probably create a great general anyways... I'd like to see it as a reward for completing the first HV maybe... Egypt gets a great artist if they hit the first goal or India gets a great prophet for finishing their first goal, etc... Although I'm afraid by granting so many great people, it might require rebalancing some of the UHVs... (With a great artist, egypts other culture goal would be a little too easy...) Just a thought.

We could also make the GG spawn after the conquest of a specific city. Of course, this would have to be a city near any civs borders. Otherwise, there will be little chance to make the AI actually conquer that city.

Ex :
Egypt: Jerusalem
India: Hanoi/Parsia
China: the japanese capital (I can't remember the name)/Hanoi/Seoul
Greece: Tyr
Persia: Hattusas
Rome: Carthage
Japan: Seoul
Carthage: Gadis/Roma
Vikings: any european city
Spain: Aztec capital/Inca capital
France: Berlin
England: Paris
Germany: Paris/Moscow
Russia: Berlin/Memel
Aztecs: any european cities
Incas: Same as above
Mali: any european city/any egyptian city/any carthaginian city
America: St-John (which is usually founded in every game)

It could be fun to know that say Scipio Africanus will spawn when you conquer Cartago as Rome, but it could lead to wars where the battle plan is always the same. Ex : If Cartago gives me Scipio, I will always invade it first to get the GG and then finish off their other cities with this bonus.
It is also the same thing with giving a GG with a special event (i.e. Hitti-Litti propositions).

I like your proposal, captain beaver.

We could make the cities harder to achieve, so the bonus is hard to get.

Here are changes that I propose:

Babylonia: Jerusalem
Persia: Byzantion
Rome: Thebes(Niwt-rst)
Japan: Beijing
Carthage: Roma
Vikings: London
Russia: Berlin

Of course we have to have other options if for example Byzantion isn't found.

As Hitti-Litti highlights, cities are very specific. More importantly, you tend to get great generals anyway if you fight a lot. In my beta game as the Turks I only had about 5 turns of fighting before my first great general spawned, and about 15 turns after that I got another.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a GG, but I'm thinking that achieving your first UHV goal could result in the spawning of a GP, somehow related to your goal.

Then every UHV goal would give a bonus. Though some nations have pretty easy first goal, like India's Buddha/Hindu goal.

Does it have to be a GG, it can be an other GP, depending on the kind of CIV

I think not, so I'll decide here the type of civs. :smug:

Religious(prophet):
India
Spain
Arabia
Aztecs

Financial(merchant):
Mali
Carthage
America

Militaristic(general):
Mongols
Rome
Persia
Japan?

Scientific(scientist):
China
England
Babylonia?
Russia

Cultural(artist):
Egypt
Babylonia?
France

Industrial(engineer):
Germany
Inca

I'll update the list, but we'll have to think about for example England, France, Aztecs and Inca.

EDit: List updated by SadoMacho's suggestions. I put England to scientific, I think James Watt invented steam power.

England: engineer, they started the industrial revolution
France : artist, it has always been a very cultural leading civ in europe
Inca : there terraces and massive architecture needed a lot of enginering skills, so...
Aztecs : bloodcult -> prophet

EDIT: america : merchant, it is strong on economy, but a lot of scientsit in USA aren't american
Russia : scientist -> look at there UB, look at there space program, without Germany technology and scientists they were much better than USA in the beginning, they had the basis for nuclear fusion.

I like the idea of granting a random Great Person on completion of the first UHV condition, but I don't agree with civ-specific Great People. No civilization has excelled in one area and lagged behind in all the others. As a brief example, it would be mad to leave China, England, Rome, Greece or India out of the 'Engineer' category, but it would be similarly strange to take them out of their current areas.

A random GP would be the best solution, I think. A nice bonus, but not too deterministic.

I would not make it completly random,
it should be with percentages, like in a city,
if you fight many wars, it shloud be more likelt to generate a general, if you have a lot of culture, a artist, a lot of techs, a scientist, a lot of gold,...

That would be preferable, but is it possible to grant a Great Person based on your current output?

Ok, lets take things into account.

Firstly, if anything, the Mongols are too powerful. They start off with a virtually unassailable UU (except with Elephants), and are a very big headache because they randomly raze the entire cities instead of capturing them.

The Mongols almost always get a Great General within five turns anyways, as do most nations who are spawned on a warpath against an existing civilization. I would only be for adding great generals if both sides get them at the time of insurrection, or perhaps each nation recieving a Great General everytime war is declared on them or by them. Giving nations with warmongering abilities and lofty goals the added bonus and reality of having more generals, while smaller isolationist groups would not have as many, but would still have one. In every war on both sides, or on all sides in some cases, there are generals who distinguish themselves.

Have you ever seen Mongols threaten Persia, Arabia and Russia? I have often saw them to conquer China, but stop when advancing to Siberia/Middle East.

Ok, lets take things into account.

Firstly, if anything, the Mongols are too powerful. They start off with a virtually unassailable UU (except with Elephants), and are a very big headache because they randomly raze the entire cities instead of capturing them.
The only times I have seen the Mongols conquer China was when China had already fallen to barbarians. The Keshik is an excellent UU, but the Mongols start with only about 10 of them (without the ressources to build them initially) against the entire Chinese army (which has the UU of building 1.5 times faster their military units). In my personnal experience, China only falls to the Mongols if it is a) barbarian state b) already under attack by India/Japan. Otherwise, all chino-mongols conflict have been lsot by the Mongols. Try a game with the Mongols and you will see it isn't that easy to conquer China by yourself.

Also, what Hitti-Litti says is right. Even if they conquer China, the Mongols have tremendous difficulties when waging war against Persia/Arabs/Russia/India. They have never in my games come even remotely close to their historical size i.e Russia, China, India.