At some point I suspect Rik will give us our starting position to look at, and we should try to spreadsheet out the first 25 turns or so. Based on Rik's past homemade maps, I'm guessing he will give us a very generous start - i.e. one with settler factory potential. When we try to plan the start, one key question will be when will we be able to build a granary - will we research pottery first, or will that come later?

Here are the assigned civs:

SABER - Ottomans (Bronze Working and Masonry)
FREE - Sumeria (Bronze Working and Pottery)
BABE - Iroquois (Pottery and Alphabet)
The Council - Korea (Bronze Working and Alphabet)
GONG - Celts (Pottery and Ceremonial Burial)

There are 3 agricultural civs with Ancient Age UUs. Our early strategy I think will be to survive. Our military should consist of mostly horses, and we should look to build Leo's, but I'm getting way ahead of myself...

I would think our first tech choice would have to be either The Wheel or Pottery. We will certainly need to know where the horses are, but we will also almost certainly want an early granary. Since 3 civs start with Pottery, we could try to trade for it, but based on last game, some civs may be unwilling to part with it for less than extortionate prices. Of course, since 3 civs have it, and we have a Masonry monopoly, we may be able to get a bargain, but if we don't research it ourselves, it makes it tougher to plan the start.

Enough babbling for now...

I think we need to go for Pottery. Judging from the last game, contact with other civs was not made until 30 turns into the game. We can't wait that long while gambling that the civ we do meet will be one of the 3 with pottery.

Also keep in mind that we do not have Alphabet and will not be able to spit out a curragh to do early exploring. If we're not on a single landmass, we cannot expect to meet the civs on other continents (or islands???) until even later.

Not to mention the fact the 3 agricultural civs will be expanding rapidly and we will need to do our best to keep up...

interesting how the civ selection played out. we will have a handful if GONG or BABE is on our continent/island at the start. The Council will be on the same level with us, since there not AGR, but since there traits are so strong in the late game, we will either have to ally with them or kill them before IA. Looks like FREE got a very strong civ in Sumeria, but i don't think their team can match us in skill level, so they might not be able to utilize Sumeria to its extent...

should be an interesting game. :)

I'm going to guess we will be on a pangaea. With 5 civs, I suspect Rik will not divide us into continents with 2 civs on 1 landmass and 3 on the other (or 2, 2, and 1, or anything else "uneven"). I'm sure Rik read the comments in the map discussion and will try to give us what people said they wanted, and I think enough people were opposed to archipelago to make the one island per civ start unlikely. So, I think pangaea is all that's left.

The strength of the teams will depend on who is active and how well they work together. Personally, I'm intimidated by all the teams because I think every team has at least one player who is better than I am, with some teams having several. On Team FREE Kuningas is a very scary player.

I'm shocked by Korea - I can't think of why anyone would prefer Korea to Greece. I guess they are afraid of having a Golden Age too early :dunno:?

I'm going to guess we will be on a pangaea. With 5 civs, I suspect Rik will not divide us into continents with 2 civs on 1 landmass and 3 on the other (or 2, 2, and 1, or anything else "uneven"). I'm sure Rik read the comments in the map discussion and will try to give us what people said they wanted, and I think enough people were opposed to archipelago to make the one island per civ start unlikely. So, I think pangaea is all that's left.

I can agree with that reasoning. So let's start thinking strategies for pangaea maps.

The strength of the teams will depend on who is active and how well they work together. Personally, I'm intimidated by all the teams because I think every team has at least one player who is better than I am, with some teams having several. On Team FREE Kuningas is a very scary player.

Let's not forget that MTDG I was won by MIA due to your MM skills. There may be better overall strategists, but the game was won by excellent planning and foresight. I'm confident that our team will be one of the stronger competitors in this game. That said, I agree that Team FREE would be our biggest threat (GONG and BABE seem to lack team cohesion in planning due to their anarchic ways and my comments on The Council will come in a second) except for the fact that I see Kuningas as their only strong player. A few of the others are good, no doubt - but they are Monarch players. The majority of our team is Monarch-Emperor caliber and constantly improving from the open discussions we hold in our forums.

I'm shocked by Korea - I can't think of why anyone would prefer Korea to Greece. I guess they are afraid of having a Golden Age too early :dunno:
My theory is that with the high level of MIA actives on their team, they were afraid of being labeled as MIA and being targeted for that reason. As a result, they sought out a civ with the same traits - though the weak UU will certainly hurt them.

I want to put one thing into discussion when deciding between Pottery and The Wheel. None of the other teams has The Wheel. As we are scientific, and SGL are ON, should we think about giving it a try early on, or is the risk too high to fall behind with expansion?

SGLs are only a 5% chance even for a scientific civ, and even if we go for The Wheel first, there is no guarantee we will get there first - someone else might research it first and get there before us, or it could be popped from a hut very early. Conversely, there is also a chance that we could get The Wheel first even if we research it second. The other civs might research:

BABE (Iroquois) - maybe the Wheel but probably Writing to try to get Philosophy first.
FREE (Sumeria) - not sure at all. The Wheel, Iron Working, and Alphabet are all reasonable.
The Council (Korea) - The Wheel, Iron Working, and Writing are all good possibilities.
GONG (Celts) - Bronze Working, or maybe The Wheel if they think they can trade for Bronze Working.

Since Pottery is so cheap, if nobody goes for The Wheel first, then we will likely be the first ones there even if we do Pottery first.

I agree with gbno1fan's conclusion that Pottery is probably our best bet first to try to keep up with expansion. I think the main reason to reconsider will be if our start looks like we don't want a granary that fast. We have the Pyramids as a prebuild option right away, so we don't need to complete Pottery until we have almost 60 shields in the bin. If we determine (based on our spreadsheet to be prepared) that we can research both Pottery and The Wheel before reaching the time when we will have 60 shields for a granary, then it definitely makes sense to do The Wheel first.

I'm going to guess we will be on a pangaea. With 5 civs, I suspect Rik will not divide us into continents with 2 civs on 1 landmass and 3 on the other (or 2, 2, and 1, or anything else "uneven"). I'm sure Rik read the comments in the map discussion and will try to give us what people said they wanted, and I think enough people were opposed to archipelago to make the one island per civ start unlikely. So, I think pangaea is all that's left.

if it is pangea and we end up close to the Celts or Iroquois, then we're gonna have to use diplo 'cause both those civs could overrun us early from the AGR trait and early UU.

The strength of the teams will depend on who is active and how well they work together. Personally, I'm intimidated by all the teams because I think every team has at least one player who is better than I am, with some teams having several. On Team FREE Kuningas is a very scary player.

i disagree. i find FREE the weakest team. Yes, Kuningas is an extremely talented civ player (light years better than me), but that's the only amazing player they have. azza is pretty good, but he's not consistent with following through on commitments on CFC (see the PBEM forum for this. he was in over a dozen games at one point, but overload with games and school forced him to quit half of them). vikingruler is ok at civ, not very good. i'm in a PBEM with kingstuart, but the game's still early, so i don't know how good he is. the other names i don't recognize.

BABE may be in anarchy, but they have Whomp, BCLG100, Robi_d, Wotan, and Tubby Rower, all excellent civ players. GONG, even though it's got serious talent in killercane and TimBentley, the rest of the team ranges from mediocre to good.

The team i'm most afraid of is The Council. They are going to be a very secretive team, with very few slip ups. They have IronGold for diplo, who is arguably the best diplomat on any team. They have peter and General_W from MIA, both great strategists. They have Niklas, a great SGer, and they have zyxy, a solid organizer and player. however, they do have donsig, who could be a great deterrent to their success. ;)

if anyone wants to talk into any more detail about the other teams, go ahead and start a thread. i've typed enough for the time being. :)

My thoughts:

We should go for pottery if we get a good start. The fact we face three agricultural civs is a bit concerning, however, we are the only Industrious civ, and that means we have some compensation :) We must strive to take advantage and make sure to pump some workers out.

As for later on:

Sipahi later on could really play to our advantage if it is (indeed) like suspected by Chamnix with pangaea.

As for the other teams:

I think they all have potential, for various reasons:

BABE - Already been said
GONG - Killercane is an excellent war time player I find, and Tim is good
FREE - They are small as of now, and I don't really recognize their names for the most part, but Kuningas is good though and he may be able to pull em along, but he is not a 1 man team either. Team DOUGHNUT from the first MTDG had Kuningas *and* was a stronger team in general, and they didn't win.
Council - Their decision for Korea was somewhat odd, considering how useful the Hoplite might be ESPECIALLY on a pangaea if that's what we get. I didn't take a lot of time to analyze The Council players, but I think they have potential in general.

Summary:

--I think The Council is the strongest team of the other four
--If BABE pulls it together, they could be a serious contender in this
--GONG I am undecided on.. they have some skill, but is it enough?
--FREE should be watched out for, Kuningas can do a lot, and if they get other people, they should be a good match against us

EDIT: I just had a theory as to why Council chose Korea... if they won, they didn't want to be seen as 'copying' the winners of the first game! O.o Maybe?

EDIT: I just had a theory as to why Council chose Korea... if they won, they didn't want to be seen as 'copying' the winners of the first game! O.o Maybe?

That's what I was thinking (and said earlier). Especially since a couple of their key players (General_W and Peter Grimes) had very big roles in the first game.

Oh, now I see where you said it :)

EDIT: Another reason I think The Council is dangerous, is that I just saw they have AutomatedTeller on their team, he's a solid deity player IIRC.

Well pottery is a must considering that we need to keep up with the pace of expansion. This is the real key to the game, we need to keep up the expansion so that we are not left behind. The we go for Alphabet because we need to try and get toward Philosohpy so that we can at least try and get the Republic slingshot.

I am not sure that is so wise. Obviously that is a critical route, one which we all love to use.

But at the same time, Alphabet takes a little while to research. By which time, the commercial civs very well might be getting Writing.

We have human opponents and they mostly will all want to get to Republic, a very powerful trading tool AND government type, no doubt.

If they go Pottery -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy -> Republic in a standard slingshot, then it's POSSIBLE for us to go:

Pottery -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Philosophy -> Map Making

If we can beat them to Philosophy in a very close race for it...

And trade MM for CoL.

It's rather risky though, and I'm not so sure about it, because if one of them beat us to Philosophy after they get CoL, then they win Republic, and we're left with techs they already have... left to hope another civ did not go that route. And by the time we meet these civs, perhaps they will have already traded for Writing/Philosophy/CoL.

In short, it's a lot of assumptions and hoping. I don't like 'Hope-Civ'.

-----

On another note, Iroquois start with both Pottery and Alphabet. Since they don't 'have' to research pottery first, they have the best shot at this, and I'm sure Team BABE knows this.

In fact, any of the agricultural civs could possibly forgo Pottery, in favor of trying to rush faster to Republic slingshot. The wisdom this is debated however.

I'm not sure how far it would put us behind initially, but we *do* start with Masonry and have a monopoly on that to start out. If it's a Pangaea... Pyramids might be seriously worth considering.

However, I don't build wonders usually in my single player games anymore, so I am not certain on the downfalls versus advantages of putting in 400 shields early. We'd be without granaries too long, and have a city tied up, neither of which are good things. However, when push comes to shove, all options must be discussed.

---

What we might want to do (and what to discuss):

--Build the Pyramids assuming it's pangaea

Pros: Allows us to skip pottery and go for the Republic slingshot, or simply go in any direction we want, tech-wise, with good growth potential for our expanding empire.
Cons: This is a very serious decision due to the resources it ties up. It could end up hurting more than it helps.

--Research other techs, and try to make contacts

Pros: On a Pangaea, tech brokering is fast-paced and exciting. If we do it right, it provides a means to get all the other techs in the Ancient Age by trading for the inevitable Alphabet/Writing/Philo/CoL/Republic, with the other two branches of techs. At the same time, we can focus on expanding the empire peacefully.
Cons: Republic is expensive with both AIs and humans (something similar between them :eek:) so we would have to somehow. However, I believe MIA traded for Republic last game, so this is very feasable. Also, there's no guarantees we'd get the right techs first to broker. But if we made good efforts for contacting, someone might not know the others, and therefore give us a good deal!

--Rush to Philosophy and 'hope' we are the first there. Take Map Making as the free tech, unless we are somehow able to acquire Code of Laws via trading or other means, before Philosophy.

Pros: If it succeeds, we are in a good position to tech broker and expand.
Cons: This is risky. Who knows what other civs would do. This is hoping. I dislike hope when trying to win in Civ.

Of these three choices, the first two are the 'best' ones in my opinion. Or maybe we'll come up with something else, who knows? They all have their downfalls, though. I am personally in favor of trying to tech broker and peacefully expanding at the same time (option #2)
---

As for the opening in general, if we get granaries in our cities, use our speedy workers to our advantage, and keep up in techs, we will be fine. If we can get one worker pump, and one settler factory, we'll be in good shape (IMO). We are Scientific so we get a free tech at the new era. This might be enough to boost us to a tech leader in this game, even if we are only 'even' with others going out of the Ancient era.

Priorities in my opinion:

--Keeping reasonably in the 'tech race' (we are scientific after all, this will help :))
--Expansion using our Industrious trait, and hopefully granaries giving us decent factories/pumps
--Exploration for contacts to get in on trading

-Elear

Update: The teams seem to be progressing a bit now. I think you can't possibly count out any team now, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. There's no obvious strong team IMO. Which is a good thing.

-Elear

I agree with Elear that the full slingshot (Code of Laws before Philosophy) is pretty much impossible for us starting without Alphabet. I don’t think anyone will risk going for Code of Laws before Philosophy first, unless they are certain they will still get to Philosophy first, or if they have a partner. That is, the only way someone will get Republic as a free tech is if two civs work together for it – one does Code of Laws and provides it to the other just before they complete Philosophy.

I really think we have no hope of getting Philosophy first unless we meet a commercial civ, and they give/trade us Alphabet and Writing to work together on a sling. Our research will be determined by our contacts once we complete Pottery – if we have no contacts yet, then right now I think we probably should go for the Wheel second, but that could change.

I don’t think we can afford to go for the Pyramids early. Putting 400 shields into a wonder that early puts us way behind in expansion and military, and owning a powerful wonder puts a giant bullseye on our backs – I don’t think that’s a good combination.

Going for the Pyramids eventually may not be bad, but I think we need a granary in our capital first as wasteful as that may seem – we need to expand some first, then we can think about wonders.

Good point about the Pyramids. I agree with you on all points.

Now that you bring it up, I wouldn't be too surprised to see a Philosophy/CoL treaty. One civ does CoL, other does Philosophy -> Republic. Then, by terms of their treaty, Republic is shared. Of course, such an action would probably provoke alliances against them later... depending on how things goes with expansion/power.

There are numerous ways to get a bullseye on your back, I suppose ;)

--Build the Pyramids assuming it's pangaea
In the early game, definitely out the question in my book. Too many shields needed for it to be worth the effort. I agree with Chamnix.

--Research other techs, and try to make contacts
This is a given. Exploration will be key, and a couple of early warriors to head out and meet other civs is a must. We should research The Wheel after Pottery to find the horses - the key resource we need to stay alive in the beginning, and one of the two we need to wage our definitive war in the end.

--Rush to Philosophy and 'hope' we are the first there. Take Map Making as the free tech, unless we are somehow able to acquire Code of Laws via trading or other means, before Philosophy.
In my opinion, this is too great a risk in the early game for a MTDG. There are too many good players on the other teams to allow us to gamble. It is critical that we are rather conservative in the beginning. Once we make it to the Middle Ages we can take more risks.

We should research The Wheel after Pottery to find the horses

I agree with this statement. I would like to make sure we are still around rather than going for a long shot in Tech research.

The other two solutions I put forth for discussion in case anyone liked them. They are risky gambits that we can't afford, though, honestly, as has been said multiple times.

P.S. - And I agree with The Wheel

Seems Gong just got Tone, another solid Deity player who can beat Sid with a good start.

Interesting.

Feel free to invite any strong players you know to join us...

I'll see whether any I know are willing to participate. :)

i agree with the early game tech plan of researching Pottery and then The Wheel. these 2 techs will let us try to stay close to the AGR civs in growth and make sure we have horses early and available for our eventual late game rampage.

I don't have anything startlingly new to add. I concur that the slingshot is not possible for us and also that getting a Granary and locating Horses are the priorities.

Ok, since I'm normally accused of playing the "what if" card in most of my team style games, I'll toss out a couple of yet to be mentioned ideas.

Research:
How about researching Warrior Code? Pro: Archers, no one else likely to go for it so monopoly is likely and an SGL chance. If not WC then how about Alphabet then on to Mathematics for a head start on SoZ with Ancient Cavalry?

Early game plans:
A warrior for scouting, then a pair of spears for defense then a settler then a granary (note that there would be time to research a tech before going for pottery in this path). Against the AI I normally prefer to build veteran units and trust they won't attack until I get a barracks. In this game that's way too risky.

Longer term plans:
An idea for down the road: Assume the map is the United States and we are in LA. Once we meet the guy in NY sign a long term alliance to eliminate the rest of the world and plan research and military goals in tandem. Trade workers on a 1 for 1 basis (lots of them). That removes support costs and allows for a very large work force and with industrious trait, our workers would still be quite productive.

I agree that the Pyramids are better captured than built. Aside from SoZ that's probably the case for all of the AA Wonders (unless the Great Lighthouse is needed to reach other tribes). Getting an SGL of course changes this, with the Pyramids at the top of the list for wonders if we get lucky.

One other question for the team. I've found that my best results have come in games where I chose a goal early and worked directly towards that goal. With that in mind, will it be:

(A) THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE

or

(B) VIOLENCE IS THE LAST REFUGE OF THE INCOMPETENT

Since I'm new to this style of game, I don't really have a feel if option B is viable

It’s great to get lots of different suggestions :). My take on them:

Warrior Code – you are probably right that it is an SGL opportunity and a potentially tradable tech. Archers, I don’t care a lot about since our fate will rest on mounted units, but we need Warrior Code to build horsemen eventually. We may or may not have time for another tech before Pottery – based on your proposed build order we would, but we have to see what terrain our capital has before we can figure out what our build order should be. I think Warrior Code is worth considering, but it will really depend on how soon we want a granary based on our capital’s surroundings.

Alphabet to Mathematics – The Statue of Zeus is worth building, but there is no hurry to get to Mathematics. We have the Pyramids and a Palace as potential prebuilds, so we don’t need Mathematics until we are closing in on 300 shields (300 was the final decision, right?). Since 2 civs start with Alphabet, and we don't need it right away, I don’t think we want to research it first.

Early game plans – I think last game I was too concerned about an early attack (for example, I recommended we go with a 6-turn settler + warrior factory instead of a 4-turn settler factory for a while). We will have to see what we end up with for map size, but last game we had 4 civs on a small map with 60% water – the civs started so far apart that there was absolutely no danger of an early attack on a capital with any real force. Unless we cram 5 civs onto a tiny map, I think we will be OK with just warriors for a while instead of spearmen.

Longer term plans – sounds good, but it is very hard to plan ahead with humans. From what little MP experience I have, it seems you make friends with your neighbors first (you meet them first, after all). If we want a peaceful relationship with our neighbors, then it may tie our hands in dealing with the further civs. This is something that we will have to wing for a while depending on who we meet.

Worker trades – I seem to remember reading somewhere that slaves we get do not have the industrious trait. Someone can try to run tests, or I can try to hunt down the old threads where I think that, but if it is true, then we may not want to trade one for one. Of course, that is a long ways away anyway, since we won’t have unit costs until we are out of Despotism anyway.

We still will have unit cost in Despot if we ave more than four units per city.

i couldn't think of a better place to post it, so i'm posting it in here. with the game starting soon, i think we should hold elections for Term 1. seeing as our constitution gives our UN Rep the power to setup nomination and election threads, lost_civ, you should put up nomination threads whenever you get the chance in the near future. :)

On what has been said recently:

I agree about warrior code, it's a good opportunity but I agree also our fate does not rest with warrior code ;)

As for the early game. We need to keep a mind of defense just in case but I do not expect anyone to try to attack us early. They have priorities of their own. As long as we have a few units around here or there, they won't risk it.

-Elear

Ok, I'll ask the question that most of us rookies have been thinking.

How does this work?

Ok, it's 4000 BC, we've seen the starting location and we've come to a consensus on if we'll move or settle, where the worker should, what we're going to build, what to research and at what rate. Now, what happens from here until 3950 BC?

The elected Sultan will play the move we decide on. The first move will likely be fairly quick... it's usually easy to spot whether the settler moves or not and where to put the worker.

After that, we send off the save and wait for the next round.

So if we're the first team to play, Rik with send the save to our Sultan, he'll enter the team password, settle/move and then save the game and e-mail it to ???, who'll play his team's turn (repeat 3 more times) then it will arrive back to the Sultan who'll post it and we'll start discussing turn 2, right?

How long is the normal cycle from send to recieve again in the early game (say QSC)?

I don't know about your second question, but you are right about the process. :)

It looks like the QSC took a little less than 5 months last game. It may be a little longer since we have 5 teams now instead of 4, but it largely depends on the turnplayers. As I recall, the first couple of turns can go by really quickly, but once civs start meeting each other, people start stalling because it takes time to hammer out agreements.

i couldn't think of a better place to post it, so i'm posting it in here. with the game starting soon, i think we should hold elections for Term 1. seeing as our constitution gives our UN Rep the power to setup nomination and election threads, lost_civ, you should put up nomination threads whenever you get the chance in the near future.

I believe lost_civ is going on vacation starting today. He designated dutchfire to be his replacement for the next week.

So, dutchfire, do you feel like setting up nomination threads?

yes, It's fine with me.

When should I start the polls, any idea when we'll get the first save?

I suggest leaving the nomination threads open another day or so and then holding polls open for 3 days.

If we have an election for sultan and we get the save before we know the turnplayer, we can always find someone to play the first save on an interim basis.

What will our capital be named? Will we have some theme for our town names?

That's a good question.

I'd go for most anything, but if I had an opinion, it'd be to totally make them up as we please.

Well, as we'll probably have a lot of cities as this is civIII, a naming scheme could be good.

Yes, but it's just as easy to make them up. Plus, it gets citizens involved.

Example:

As I play my single player games, rather than use the 'New' names once I've run out, I just start with A and make up random stuff that sounds decent.

-Aebinal
-Aureon
-Aishaa
-Aeburn
-Blagorn
-Birir
-Cethra
-Cenorik

In that manner ;)

Or we can do a naming scheme :mischief:

-Elear

What will our capital be named? Will we have some theme for our town names?

maybe a poll can be done to name our capital, but for the rest of our cities, i would like to use MIA's system, which i thought was very efficient and fair. let each citizen of our team name a city themselves, going in order of when they joined the team. when all team members have named a city, we go down the list again. this way everyone gets input into city names.

Both ideas sound good to me, greekguy. Your suggestions have been tested and used for tens of thousands of years (see Civ3 DGs). They encourage participation and bring a sense of, I dunno, not ownership, but inclusion.

I'll think of the right word after I sign off. :blush:

Community?

But I agree, MIA's system sounds good to me.