Well I dont know if its good place to write there and not to Offtopic. I found that all technologies are called exactly same in editing and in the game, within communism. Its called Utopia in editing. I am not communist, but I found it as unfair, making game with political message...:confused:

To be fair, in most Utopian/Distopian novals I have read (1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, etc...) the common theme is that to achieve a "perfect" society free of crime, poverty, war, etc... civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, land owership, etc... have to be take away because they create too much catylists for conflict. In shot a society where the government owns everything, and everyone has a job, food, and a purpose in life.....

It was called Communism but since patch 1.61 it's utopia - it's very weird and unfair and unneded 1 billion people lives in so called communism - besides it really pissed of moders cause they needed to correct it

To be fair, in most Utopian/Distopian novals I have read (1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, etc...) the common theme is that to achieve a "perfect" society free of crime, poverty, war, etc... civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, land owership, etc... have to be take away because they create too much catylists for conflict. In shot a society where the government owns everything, and everyone has a job, food, and a purpose in life.....

My point is not if communism is utopia...we may talking about it, but not there...my point is that all technologies are same in editing and in the game, also some "bad" as military technologies or fascism...I found it that its not right giving to game secret political message.

It was called Communism but since patch 1.61 it's utopia - it's very weird and unfair and unneded 1 billion people lives in so called communism - besides it really pissed of moders cause they needed to correct it

I suspect the Chinese release of the game may have something to do with it - there were a few other changes around the same time for that reason.

I suspect the Chinese release of the game may have something to do with it - there were a few other changes around the same time for that reason.

Its interesting. It should be nice what were other changes and why its changed. China had some problems with Civ4?

Its interesting. It should be nice what were other changes and why its changed. China had some problems with Civ4?

Yes, as far as I know there were changes made to CIV 4 since the v1.61 patch to make it "approved" by Communist China. That's a very large market share CIV 4 can take, so that's probably why they did it.

I wonder if thats the same reason why for Mao's entry in the Leaders's Files, it says "Chinese Leader"

I wonder if thats the same reason why for Mao's entry in the Leaders's Files, it says "Chinese Leader"
As I understand it, all the variable names that don't match what they relate to are because of this. Utopia, Chinese Leader, Great Dam...

For non-communists who are offended by this, here's a useful justification:

The term "Utopia" comes from the book by Sir Thomas Moore. Traced back to its Greek roots, it appears to mean "Good place", but if pronounced "Oo-topia" it means "No place" and there is a distinct possibility that Moore intended this meaning, or even both meanings, to come accross. The implication is that there is no Utopia. Like communism, it's just a foolish dream.

As I understand it, all the variable names that don't match what they relate to are because of this. Utopia, Chinese Leader, Great Dam...

For non-communists who are offended by this, here's a useful justification:

The term "Utopia" comes from the book by Sir Thomas Moore. Traced back to its Greek roots, it appears to mean "Good place", but if pronounced "Oo-topia" it means "No place" and there is a distinct possibility that Moore intended this meaning, or even both meanings, to come accross. The implication is that there is no Utopia. Like communism, it's just a foolish dream.

Well I realy dont think thats because it.:)

Well I realy dont think thats because it.:)
No, the reason is that China didn't want anything in the game that might be construed as an attack on their government. But if you want, you can see it the way I have and it's not such a political message (come to think of it, it never was a political message anyway).

Well, before the communist manifesto (that one little red book that began all the magic) there was another book called UTOPIA (hint hint). It was the book that gave root to the system communism. UTOPIA.

I believe it's not that big enough of an error (if any) to really warrant a chaning of tech names, there's enough out there to obfuscuate things for modders, we really don't need another (IMO).

I believe it's not that big enough of an error (if any) to really warrant a chaning of tech names, there's enough out there to obfuscuate things for modders, we really don't need another (IMO).
What error? This isn't about an error, it's about appeasing China.

I don't now if it's appeasing China calling this country Utopia - this word doesn't mean anything good and it doesn't make sense if in game it's still communism

i don't know why they did this, but the've made a lot of errors in mods from changing patch from 1.52 to 1.61 - nobody likes changes of the tag names

well i think this conversation is ridiculous. so they called the commie tech "utopia". they made Mao "chinese leader". But deep down, how much of a difference is it? if you start seeing political attacks, rascism and injustice all over the place, over the teen-tiniest of matters, you might as well create your own.

asioasioasio, the reason the tags are different is probably so that in the chinese version of the game, it does say "Utopia" and "Chinese Leader", but in chinese.

asioasioasio, the reason the tags are different is probably so that in the chinese version of the game, it does say "Utopia" and "Chinese Leader", but in chinese.

So its Chinas move? Show that communism is utopia and Mao is not influental now? :crazyeye: It looks that China is moving from left-wing police state to right-wing one:lol:

So its Chinas move? Show that communism is utopia and Mao is not influental now? :crazyeye:
Rather, not mention anything that might be construed as an attack on the Communist government. The safest way to do that is to not explicitly mention anything that connects to the Communist government. Get it?

It looks that China is moving from left-wing police state to right-wing one:lol:
1. What is a left-wing police state?
2. You imply that it is in the process, or that the process began recently.

Well, China has basically lost its communist economic system, and is really more of a free-trade system nowadays.

IMO a left-wing police state is Mao, Stalin, Pol-Pot; a right-wing one is the Apartheid of either South Africa or Palestine, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet.
As far as I know, China is more of a mixed economy nowadays but is indeed globalizing the trade.

IMO a left-wing police state is Mao, Stalin, Pol-Pot; a right-wing one is the Apartheid of either South Africa or Palestine, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet.
Yeah, in the area of censorship, I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference. China is now a right-wing police state rather than a left-wing one (if you ask me, it has been since Mao died) but I'm struggling to see how this wouldn't have happened in its "left-wing" days.

I know that China made reat jump to the right side in economical aspects (less nationalization, more free market and capitalizm), but it's still left-wing totalitarian country (but it doesn't matter - Stallin wasn't better human than hitler - police state, atrocities, totalitarism and censorship never was a good idea (no matter left-wing or right-wing))

I know that China made reat jump to the right side in economical aspects (less nationalization, more free market and capitalizm), but it's still left-wing totalitarian country (but it doesn't matter - Stallin wasn't better human than hitler - police state, atrocities, totalitarism and censorship never was a good idea (no matter left-wing or right-wing))
That makes no sense. If it is right-wing in economic issues, and in social issues it is indistinguishable from a right-wing totalitarian country, why call it a left-wing totalitarianism? Would somebody please explain why there must be a needless label if the alternative is exactly the same?

I only trying find why China wants disrespect Mao. The true is that their leaders are communists.

I only trying find why China wants disrespect Mao.
Consider this: You are the leader of a totalitarian country. A capitalist organisation in the west wants to sell you a game. If you find that said game features references to your country's history and government, are you likely to

a) Take the time to investigate and make sure it's not saying anything bad
b) Rubber stamp it.
c) Refuse it.

It's simply easier for Firaxis to get rid of anything that might be construed as anti-China, even if they aren't. It's not necessarily China asking them to do so, but China's wishes are the reason. Understand?

"One can be right wing or left wing. What one can't be is an idiot." Felipe Gonzalez, Ex-Prime minister of Spain



well ive lost track of the conversation. wasnt it about communism beign TECH_UTOPIA or something??

and by the way, if your going to judge communism you better know what it is.
READ THE MANIFESTO OR THATS ENOUGHT

cuz i can say some crazy stuff about capitalism too but you dont see me whining.

Capitalism has been shown historically as the by far superior economic system, with no communist or socialist state able to compete in any way over a relatively long period of time. The security of socialised economies does not breed creativity and new ideas the way that a laissez faire economy does.

Consider this: You are the leader of a totalitarian country. A capitalist organisation in the west wants to sell you a game. If you find that said game features references to your country's history and government, are you likely to

a) Take the time to investigate and make sure it's not saying anything bad
b) Rubber stamp it.
c) Refuse it.

It's simply easier for Firaxis to get rid of anything that might be construed as anti-China, even if they aren't. It's not necessarily China asking them to do so, but China's wishes are the reason. Understand?

I dont know, I feel that even for China communism=communism, Mao = Mao. What it may change when they call Mao "chinese leader". I cant get it:blush:. I understood point if Firaxis deleted history or Chinese civilization...

I dont know, I feel that even for China communism=communism, Mao = Mao.
Yes, but there is doubtlessly a feeling that when a western corporation like Firaxis starts talking about communism or Mao, they just might be attempting to subvert the government. They aren't, of course, but how would censorship officials in China know that? This is a precaution on Firaxis's part to make sure they're not interpretted as being anti-communist. You can't be anti-communist if you don't mention communism, right?

You can't be anti-communist if you don't mention communism, right?

weird logic indeed - if they want to be political corect for china in first place they would increase the role of state property, and few other things and change the free speach, universal suffrage and few other civics. You didn't convience me why Mao can't be called Mao and communism cannot be called Communism.

I don't think calling it utopia is political correct.

I don't think calling it utopia is political correct.

Politicals are rarely correct.

Capitalism has been shown historically as the by far superior economic system, with no communist or socialist state able to compete in any way over a relatively long period of time. The security of socialised economies does not breed creativity and new ideas the way that a laissez faire economy does.

i am willing to let that one slide. lets not begin to qualify the bad things in comunism in tence of good things in capitalism ok?

weird logic indeed - if they want to be political corect for china in first place they would increase the role of state property, and few other things and change the free speach, universal suffrage and few other civics. You didn't convience me why Mao can't be called Mao and communism cannot be called Communism.
You're not listening! They aren't out to tell the Chinese government what they want to hear, they're trying to not tell them what they don't want to hear. There's a difference. You do not export things from a western capitalism to a communist nation that talks extensively about communism if you want it to get past the censors. They aren't going to take the time to play the game and examine how exactly it might endanger the government, they are too busy. They see "American corporation talking about communism in out country = bad".

I don't think calling it utopia is political correct.
If political correctness is about avoiding controversy, then yes. Utopia is an arbitrary alternative name with fewer negative stereotypes. It remains to be seen if the conection to communism will even be mentioned in the Chinese version of the game. Stop looking at it as calling it utopia, and start to see it as not calling it communism.

Guys, this was hashed out when the patch was released.

Do you remember the other two tag changes? Three Gorges Dam (in China) to GREAT_DAM, and Forbidden Palace (China) to GREAT_PALACE.

And in case that's not convincing enough, it was the same patch wherein they added support for Chinese language.

It's 100% in order to sell it in China because China has certain restrictions on what names and symbols can appear in media, just like in Germany.

Well I dont know if its good place to write there and not to Offtopic. I found that all technologies are called exactly same in editing and in the game, within communism. Its called Utopia in editing. I am not communist, but I found it as unfair, making game with political message...:confused:

cracker, please.

If political correctness is about avoiding controversy, then yes. Utopia is an arbitrary alternative name with fewer negative stereotypes. It remains to be seen if the conection to communism will even be mentioned in the Chinese version of the game. Stop looking at it as calling it utopia, and start to see it as not calling it communism.

Between language versions, the only thing that remains the same are the tags. So TECH_UTOPIA will say "Communism" in English, with a pedia entry for "Communism".

In Chinese, the corresponding entry to TECH_UTOPIA will probably be "People's Republic" or "Great Republic" or "Wonderful Voices of Free Workers" or some such thing.

Between language versions, the only thing that remains the same are the tags. So TECH_UTOPIA will say "Communism" in English, with a pedia entry for "Communism".

In Chinese, the corresponding entry to TECH_UTOPIA will probably be "People's Republic" or "Great Republic" or "Wonderful Voices of Free Workers" or some such thing.
Yes, my post was really speculating on whether it would be something like that (linking it with real world communism) or something completely different.

Ok, so shall we move this to Offtopic or shall we get back to coding?