Hi Guys,

Meanwhile you have tested enough Beta 4 and we have fixed many bugs you have reported for our Pre-Gold release aimed for Sunday 10th December.

This temples should in general make the ancient civs more unique and give them a flavor and help them to match what they once were.

What do you think of the Pagan temples? I sthere anything unbalancing?

Thanks
Houman

1st of all

NO pogan temple should give -1:science:, or atleast should not lower :science: below 0 even with 0% resarch.
As it was in my savegame bug report, i had -1 resarch output and yes i was loosing my masonary progress.

Also Chinese temples that give +1:food: but -1:hammers:. This STILL gives more PRODUCTION. How ? Simple. Lets say that Qin Shi Huangs city has population of 4 and 9:food:, witch means when it grows to 5 population it eighther starves or find a :food: title. Lets say that there is no more :food: titles, only plain/hill/forests witch gives +3:hammers: +1:hammer: (Qin is industrious), so normally this city cannot have population 5 and 5 more :hammers:, but with temple it gets 5th population as well as 4:hammers:.

Another thing, city of population 3 and 6:food: cannot allow it self to start using gold mine whitch gives only 1:food: thus making city starve. But with temple city has enough food to change one worker from plains to a grassland gold mine, not only gaining 1:hammers: but also 6:commerce:

This temples are very well ballance, but need small corections.

More in a minute/hour/day.

interesting...well as you say this combinations are a good thing. The only problem I see here is the research. We should then get rid of -1 research and give something else as -1...

I think that chinese pogan temple should give -1:hammers: and +1:). This way you can have more population in early game. Oratleast make that if all your cities have pogan temple built you get +1:) in every city.

Also Shinto Tori
-1:commerce: +1:health: and +1 xp.
+1 xp is too small. With barracks you get 3 + 3 from trait that 6 xp to melee unit and 3 to archery, So adding 1 from shinto tori wont make much differance (almost none), i say that it should give 2 xp, but no healthiness.

Also in Japanese history Shintoism was never "obsolated", so i say that Shinto Toris should be weaker than other temples (or stronger with stronger disadvantages), but never get obsolated (or even get bonus with Nationhood and Police State, as it was in WW I and WW II peroid).

I give it this.
100 :hammers: cost (if 90 is needed for other ones)
-1:commerce:, (obsolate with industrialism)
-1:health: (as constant clan/family wars were lowereing population) or 25% slower population growth (if possible)
+2 xp obsolate with gunpowder
+1:) for 30xp unit stationing in city (if possible)
-25% withdraw rate when attacking from city title. (obsolate with castle building)
+2 :mad: when being a vassal
+1:) with buddist temple or monastary
+1 :mad: with islamic, christian, jewish, hindu, zoroastrian temple (obsolate with free speach)
+1 :mad: with islamic, christian, jewish, hindu, zoroastrian monastary (oboloate with free speach)
+2 :mad: with islamic, christian, jewish, hindu, zoroastrian cathedral
+2:mad: with pacifism
+1:) when at war (or atleast no war weariness) (obsolate with liberalism)
+1 :mad: with no rice

Almost a wonder ;)
Wonder how many of them will get implanted.

Chooson temple

+1:hammers: +1:culture:
Does not give any disadvantage.

Same with spanish.

I say that every pogan temple should lower a thing that such civ was weak in (Japan wasnt a good in trade, rice was their currency till 1600ad)
About Vikins, i heared that their civilization didnt stand in a hight level, mostly shacks not stone homes. So their temple should give -1:hammers: and -1:health: +1:commerce: becouse they pillaged a lot, or +50%:commerce: from pillaging improvements instead for +1:commerce:.

interesting...well as you say this combinations are a good thing. The only problem I see here is the research. We should then get rid of -1 research and give something else as -1...

As for mogols i would give -1:food: for their nomad lifestyle.

Anaztazioch,

Thanks for your comments and ideas.
Meanwhile, the goal of these Pagan Temples is not to give great bonuses neither a +1 happy face. This is the goal of the 7 "true" religion of the game. So, when you add all bonuses you can see that the total bonus is ALWAYS +2. (Example: +1 hammer and +1 culture to Choson Temple, +2 gold and -1 hammer and +1 culture to Mesoamerican Temple). These temple were added to show : 1) that some religion had existed before the 7 of the game 2) that each people/civ in the game follow a very particular cult, religion,...

I have to add that these Temple are short lived in the game. They usually quickly vanished when a "true" religion arise. They are also a pre requisite to a new wonder not yet added (maybe in the next release).

Hian the Frog.

@ Hian the Frog

Yes i am aware of that hence "Wonder how many of them will get implanted." at the ond of #5),but Shintoism is still a religion in Japan (altough Japan had state religion adopted only when Nationalists and Fascist used it to rise military power and prepare for World Wars, Shintoism was that state religion, not Buddism).

I say that pogan temples should not give +2 but +4 and -2, this way they will make its owners more unique and "force" specific way of early rising of Civ.
+1:hammers +1:culture: is better than
+1:food: +1:commerce: +1:culture: +1:science: -2:hammers:

--------
Also for Carthage.
They were know for their mercenaries, so why naot giving their pogan temples this
+4:commerce: +1:culture: -2:hammers: -1:science: ?
(and making resarch never get below 0)

It's not a problem to have temples with only +1 / +1... in a number of civs, early religion was never that strong a force. Modest pagan temples reflect that.

It's not a problem to have temples with only +1 / +1... in a number of civs, early religion was never that strong a force. Modest pagan temples reflect that.

Endovior,

Thanks. :D
You are right. A +1 hammer bonus can be very powerfull with a Nemeton (Celtic Temple) as a level 3 city with a 4 hammers production for example will produce then 5 hammers per turn. It means a growth of +25 % !! Is that not enough ? :eek:
IMO, our Pagan Temples are well made. Maybe some minor changes to correct some bugs and misunderstood but we will not make them powerfull temples !

At least now. We are loocking for some updates after a few test, but not massive ones !

Hian the Frog.

Nemen temples

+1:hammers:
+1:commerce:
-1:science:

The points is that it lowers the :science:. But to look at this this way - In early stages of the game, 5% of resarch output costs 1:commerce:. I found that i have 80% resarch and 0gold/turn and have 10 turn to complete mining. Now with nemen shrine i loose :science: so now i need 11 turns, but for that 1:commerce: i rise my resarch output to 85% and i need only 9 turns to go !
Also its +1:hamemrs: so i say its a bit unballancing comparing to shrines that dont give :commerce: or even take it !

Nemen temples

+1:hammers:
+1:commerce:
-1:science:

The points is that it lowers the :science:. But to look at this this way - In early stages of the game, 5% of resarch output costs 1:commerce:. I found that i have 80% resarch and 0gold/turn and have 10 turn to complete mining. Now with nemen shrine i loose :science: so now i need 11 turns, but for that 1:commerce: i rise my resarch output to 85% and i need only 9 turns to go !
Also its +1:hamemrs: so i say its a bit unballancing comparing to shrines that dont give :commerce: or even take it !
pagan temples will be adjusted:
no -1:science: but -25% to research
others temples changed too, but I not remember how :) (and now i don't have access to civ)

-25%:science: ?
Dont you think its a bit too much for early game ?
I was thinking more about 10% or 15% max. But we'll se in pre-gold. (wonder if it will be platinium edition ;) with free mousepad add-on :lol:)

+1:commerce: +1:science: -1:food: +1:culture:
You know witch one this is ?
in early game, there is not much luxuary, so less food actually is better. Than both gold and science, makes it a bit too good dont you agree ?
Will check this one out in pre-gold (hopefully tomorrow, or today actually;))

OMG
I just got stuck with low resarch and barelly any money thanks to weakened persian pogan temples.

Dont you want to re-think some pagan temples? For example african (Mali) pagan temple has -20%:science: and +20%:hammers:, while the greek (I think) one has +20%:science: (dont know what else).
Now if you think a bit that means that Greece will get 50% more :science: than Mali if they both have pagan temples. Not to mention that especially in the early game - when pagan temples are used - research is tons more important than production IMO.
Also it doesnt matter what we are talking about 20% is a very serious nerf, and the last thing you want to nerf is your research usually.
Anyhow, you can guess, did I even try to build Statue of Zeus as Mali? :)

Mali has low production in its cities. Often it takes 4 turns to build skirmisher and 5 for axeman, while Greece can build those in 1 or 2 turns (at same staage of game).
AI cant play good as Mali, but i can get it very high, but its much harder than Spain.

Anyway, Ive checked the pagan temples and IMO they are far from balanced. Some temples only give bonuses, and in general it seems that you've made stats that should worth the same and added them randomly so that the end value is the same for all temples. The problem is that +1:health: is by no means equal to +20%:hammers: or :science: and especially not to +1:food:, I dont have to explain that one I think. Or a +20%:gold: bonus doesnt worth enough to lose 1:food: for it when your cities gold output will be around 1-2 maximum, so chances are that +20% wont yield you anything. Actually my main problem is that some temples doesnt give so many bonuses BUT they also dont set you back at any area, so even if the various stats would be about the same value, the temples that doeasnt have negative effects are still better, since at such an early game you simply cannot convert one production area into another (in some cases you cant even later).

(btw, as I remember the mongolian temple is just simply a disaster, you would have to pay me a lot to build it)

Yup, Mongolian and Turkish temples are crap, but without those, Chinese cultural influence can eat you.

The pegan temples are not actually made to be ballanced, but to show they way their civ took. Mongolia is "king" if it comes to warfare (militraistic, power, +1xp from temples), but they were unorganized and not progressive. Mostly their knowledge came from conquest (chinese engeiners etc.).
If you plan to play a "civ builder" not conquerer, i suggest you select differant civ.