Not trying to spark the debate again, but my most recent experience taking a crack at the SE blew up in my face. continents as China w/ industrius/prot.

2nd city founded near stone, got the pyramids at 980bc. decent location but surrounded on all sides by the AI. ended up getting slammed by 2 of them with cats and eles. probably my fault for beelining to machinery w/ a great engineer but the question is:

now that we're looking at 500 hammers is it really worth it to shoot for the pyramids?? had I dropped cottages instead of farms and spent that on axemen and settlers I would have had much more territory and army right about the point where I started to lose against the AI.

just wanted to get some input from our usually SE devotees.. are you having the same success you used to? if so is it to the same advantage as before? thoughts?

NaZ

The patch really nerfed both great early economy options (CS Slingshot and Pyramids/SE) I believe that SE took a big fall though, as CE doesn't rely solely on CS, it can still be very effective without. However, particularly on high difficulty, wonders are really hard to get. Missing the Pyramids will get you some cash, but the wasted time not getting axes/settlers/workers will kill you on Emperor and up.

SE never relied on Piramids. Your mistake is to try and get it by any cost.
General development comes first.

mutineer,

i believe futurehermit would disagree with you on that point. representation is NESSESSARY to keep up with a CE until you make that eventual transition. given my recent experience I'd rather run a CE with a non financial civ than try to take up soo many hammers on the pyramids

NaZ

That is Vannilla civ,
read tread, load my save and look.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192600

Although I agree with Mutineer that an SE doesn't necessarily need Pyramids, I don't think it needed any form of nerfing, such as making Pyramids more expensive. We all know cottage spam is favoured by 99% of civ players. Must we see that go up to 99.99%? Yet another bad decision by the developers?

Pyramids is still very viable, ESPECIALLY with stone + industrious.

I can't see how you lost imo. If you let the AI get construction AND build up an army of catas + elephants and you weren't ready, you need more practice with the SE imo.

Don't bash the strat if you can't pull it off. Don't forget that pyramids also opens up police state, which I'll use to crank out an army if I feel I will need military asap. In fact, if you don't have libraries up and running yet, representation isn't essential. Just hit police state and chop/whip an army. Doesn't take long to get one out with that.

Then, once you have libraries up, switch to representation and fly towards liberalism.

Once I have the pyramids up I routinely hit liberalism first AND have the largest empire after lengthy periods of warring.

SE doesn't rely on pyramids, but it is FAR more powerful with it. That being said, if you're philosophical it can still be powerful without pyramids. Pyramids + philosophical = gg.

On Emperor and above there's no time for wonder building with Warlords. You need a strong military early in the game to succeed.

Well I'm playing post-patch warlords and I can tell you it is possible, especially with industrious/stone. I play monarch/emperor continents normal.

I can count the number of times I've ever started near stone with my hands. Don't even talk about having stone nearby while playing an Industrious leader.

Post-patch, I can tell you, there is a hair's difference between challenge and frustration. Alternatively, you can just warmonger your way to victory. Or you can go down 2-3 levels and trash the AI in every way. How interesting.

Well, stone is situational. But when was pyramids ever viable without industrious and/or stone? With industrious I'll still go for it with a high-production/high-forest start. But that is also same as always. Basically, nothing has changed for me and I haven't noticed any difference in my games. Pyramids is still expensive, like it always was. And if I get it and run a SE I can dominate, same as always.

That being said, I'm playing a lot of napoleon lately. You always want to cottage your capital regardless and I've been going with a worker-pottery opening. Get down a couple early cottages, especially if there is floodplains. Basically, I'll go pottery-mining-bronze-ah-myst (for border-popping)-iron-writing-alphabet. Then I set my research to 0% using scientists for a slow research rate and just go hog-wild with a sword-axe-spear army expanding to the nines. I don't know how effective it will be in the long run cuz I'm just starting but it's much different than I normally play and it's pretty fun. If I find stone nearby, I'll consider the pyramids (always good), but if not I'll go CE and the early cottages are handy (although they conflict with getting production up asap unless on floodplains).

Well, stone is situational. But when was pyramids ever viable without industrious and/or stone?

Exactly. So why make it even more expensive? I never really bother with the wonder, except in OCC, but I still think this is a really dumb change.

That being said, I'm playing a lot of napoleon lately. You always want to cottage your capital regardless and I've been going with a worker-pottery opening. Get down a couple early cottages, especially if there is floodplains. Basically, I'll go pottery-mining-bronze-ah-myst (for border-popping)-iron-writing-alphabet. Then I set my research to 0% using scientists for a slow research rate and just go hog-wild with a sword-axe-spear army expanding to the nines. I don't know how effective it will be in the long run cuz I'm just starting but it's much different than I normally play and it's pretty fun. If I find stone nearby, I'll consider the pyramids (always good), but if not I'll go CE and the early cottages are handy (although they conflict with getting production up asap unless on floodplains).

I don't play Napoleon anymore simply because I'm too comfortable playing as him. Doesn't make for interesting games. Same reason why I don't want to go for an early war or conquer my continent anymore. Not that I play much anymore anyway.

I think, if anything, it is EASIER to get the Pyramids after the patch. Sure, it is 25% more expensive in hammers, but - and this is the major point - the AI will build them SIGNIFICANTLY later than before the patch, if at all. I have been surprised, generally, at how late the pyramids are built in each of my post patch games when I haven't built them myself... granted, I play prince and monarch games, but I believe it is likely the same on higher difficulties. It seems the AI values wonders in general less after the patch, and it also appears that the added cost makes the Pyramids less desirable for the AI

Also, if you consider the approach of getting early metal casting and using a GE from a forge to get the pyramids, that gambit is actually more realistic now, independent of how you get to Metal Casting... of course, if you need to research it, you will lose valuable time with assigned scientists in your largest cities, but the point is, if you DO go for assigning a specialist engineer to get the GE, you are almost assured to get one before the AI builds the pyramids

/Andreas

I think, if anything, it is EASIER to get the Pyramids after the patch. Sure, it is 25% more expensive in hammers, but - and this is the major point - the AI will build them SIGNIFICANTLY later than before the patch, if at all. I have been surprised, generally, at how late the pyramids are built in each of my post patch games when I haven't built them myself... granted, I play prince and monarch games, but I believe it is likely the same on higher difficulties. It seems the AI values wonders in general less after the patch, and it also appears that the added cost makes the Pyramids less desirable for the AI

Also, if you consider the approach of getting early metal casting and using a GE from a forge to get the pyramids, that gambit is actually more realistic now, independent of how you get to Metal Casting... of course, if you need to research it, you will lose valuable time with assigned scientists in your largest cities, but the point is, if you DO go for assigning a specialist engineer to get the GE, you are almost assured to get one before the AI builds the pyramids

Maybe that can happen sometimes. But the AI's decision-making is by no means the same in every game. I don't think Ramesses looks at the increased cost of the Pyramids and thinks "Hey, it's more expensive now. Why should I build it?". The increased cost is worse for you than for the AI, who starts with so many bonuses to help it out early in the game. I dare say it's at least as likely that they build the wonder before you in the long run, if you keep trying it on Monarch and above. I've always followed the safe path and ignored the Pyramids, but I don't find this change sensible at all.

^^^

THAT is interesting. With a philosophical civ, it might be a good idea to have another go for that oracle-mc-GE-pyramids gambit we worked on awhile back. Mmmm....Ghandi....drooool.....

Exactly. So why make it even more expensive? I never really bother with the wonder, except in OCC, but I still think this is a really dumb change.

I don't play Napoleon anymore simply because I'm too comfortable playing as him. Doesn't make for interesting games. Same reason why I don't want to go for an early war or conquer my continent anymore. Not that I play much anymore anyway.

Yeah, I don't know why they made it more expensive either. I think it's still a great wonder though. I really do prefer the SE and not even so much for the economy itself, just because I find that with the CE regrowth after whipping is so slow and I hate that :(

I agree on Nappy. I used to play him all the time in vanilla and now I find myself going to him again. Charismatic is such a powerful trait!!! And I've always had a soft spot for organized. Plus, you gotta love ag-wheel as starting techs. However, that being said, I do get tired of certain civs as well and I also get tired of warring. However, whenever I get tired of warring, I play a cultural game! Then I get a craving for war again :p

Well post patch you do have more time to do oracle-metal casting slingshot and run great engineer for pyramids..Pyramids is getting built later as the extra 100 shields slows the ai build further..Of course you need a financial civ to pull it..

Gandhi is particularly good at getting it..research path being
grow building warrior
bw, whip fast worker,reseasrch agri
worker starts prechopping forsts till agri comes and starts irrigating...
second city get a high food city...get a 2nd worker in between who prechops 3 forests in 2nd city
research wheel,meditation,priesthood
start building oracle and grow 2nd city to unhappiness you should get it to pop 4 by 6 turns after oracle is complete...
basically 3 forests give u 60 shields for forge whipping 2 citizen another 60 ..ur left with 2 pop.one of which is assigned engineer

If u have coastal resource get fishing somewhere between...

Fast workers are tremendous in pre-chopping and final chopping saving around 2 turns per forest...

Then you can start the typical se builds...

well.. the pyramids is the best wonder in the game...and it doesnt go obsolete..

it'd even make sense to me if it took 1000 hammers..

well.. the pyramids is the best wonder in the game...and it doesnt go obsolete..

it'd even make sense to me if it took 1000 hammers..Of course i goes obsolete. it goes obsolete when you have discovered Fascism and democracy.

Hi all, i hope i make some sense in the following post.

I have been playing Civ4 for a few months now mostly on Monarch , on Emperor lately. I've also been experimenting lately with getting Pyramids early, testing on different starting locations (with Ghandi).

As most people here know there are basically 3 methods:

- Build directly
- Oracle metal casting gambit
- Great Wall --> GE-->Pyramids

I never bothered with the first method as it's largely dependend on getting stone and besides why not try to get somewhat more out of it as in the second or third method to compensate for the lack of early expansion. The second method was doable on Monarch but there are quite a few botlenecks (having researched the right techs in time, getting oracle in time, getting the forge up in time, getting pyramids in time and not getting killed by barbs in the meantime) that probably makes it hard on emperor.

Third method is my favorite but is also not 100 % sure, basically you chop the great wall (that has never failed) and research to writing afterwards as soon as you have that tech you build the library assign 1 or 2 specialist and hope for a GE (+/-85 % chance) imo this is neccessary because otherwise without the specialists the GE and pyramids will arive to late . Tried 2 times yesterday on emperor, one time i was beaten to it in 775 BC because i didn't get the library up in time, second time it worked.

I wondered if the following would work: start with polytheism, get hinduism, then start BW and chop GW. then after building GW, researching priesthood and building a cheap temple you can assign a priest to speed up the birthrate. It would certainly make the strategy less one sided as now you get:

Great wall
Pyramids
a Religion

to compensate for the lack of early expansion. Haven't tested this yet.

I have never played a SE without pyramids but i tend to agree with Mutineer that you give up too much by building pyramids.Using the great wall method you generally have one city in 800 bc building a settler instead of some 3 growing cities. Representation is surely a boost to SE but i don't think the extra 3 science accounts for more than 20% of research as most of the techs come in via lightbulbing and trading (up to Education that is). After education you'll probably have to reseach for liberalism (hoping to win the race) , Nationalism and Constitution asap as lightbulbing isn't that strong anymore.
This means that you have too wait with researching Scientific method and Biology which is what i tend to do when having pyramids. Having never tried SE without pyramids i'm not sure about this though.

Played a few game on deity huge map with 18civs as chinese. only time i attempt build pyramid is when i get bronze working and masonry from goody huts and have access to stone. And I only start building it after i had 3rd city. I use chop+whip to finish it. Other 2 city build units.

pyramid gives a huge boost on deity. If you don't get it, you are stuck with a max of 5 pop for your cities till calendar.

hermit,

not bashing at all actually. i know you can pull it off :P

I went back and realized I lost by trying to beeline towards machinery rather than other more useful techs. the fact that I put myself in a losing position is as much to do with lack of micro as it is to lack of time playing as china. I also play a CE nearly every game, and have mixed results from SE games.

I put this out there to get YOUR opinion specifically related to the pyramids. if I had gone the oracle MC route I'd have been in a MUCH better position I believe. there was marble nearby so I could have gone that route. china being non philo though it makes it really tough to pull that off in any reasonable amount of time.

I think I'm going to go back to right before I got the pyramids and give police state a shot. thanks for the suggestion

NaZ

Regarding the pyramids for representation, I am far more concerned with the happiness for my cities allowing them to grow as much as I need so I can whip an army/infrastructure. The extra beakers are a nice boon, but secondary. Gandhi is the best because you can switch back and forth between slavery/caste system. Whip, regrow, starve the cities under caste system to gain the most out of the philosophical trait. The dynamics available allow you to adapt to the climate of the game pretty easily and eventually control that climate.

In every game I play, I try to evaluate if I can run a SE. Only time I don't even think about running it is with a financial leader.

^^Indeed the happiness from representation is nice but in an SE the culture slider does a fine job. I agree about switching between Slavery and Caste system, it feels so flexible.Sometimes though i have a feeling that i return too slavery to often,maybe better to build some workshops instead of farming everything.

my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

NaZ

^^Indeed the happiness from representation is nice but in an SE the culture slider does a fine job. I agree about switching between Slavery and Caste system, it feels so flexible.Sometimes though i have a feeling that i return too slavery to often,maybe better to build some workshops instead of farming everything.

Drama is not usually on my list priorities. In a SE, I usually play a very aggresive role and don't have control over the culture slider for quite some time.

If I'm spiritual, I switch back and forth for a large majority of the game. I think the math has been done here where whipping is in fact, less effective, than natural progressive growth and building. To hell with those diminishing returns, I want it now!


my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

Personally, I haven't had too many problems there. Early on, I've got a city designated as a finance center. Some city needs funds early in an SE, for the reason you state. No doubt I'll find a better one later on, and have no qualms paving over early hamlets and villages if that original cash cow city is better suited for a different task.

It's not even a guarantee I have all my libraries up and going by CoL. I stay focused on units. Barracks are nice, monuments a higher priority if no early religion was founded. Since I'm looking to build the pyramids, I can't afford to be building libraries, I am already preparing for an ancient war. I can whip the library when needed.

Also, what techs are you worried about? You don't need much to fund a SE. Two cities, maybe three. Agriculture, wheel, mining, and BW. Early on, you only need a couple of decent commerce squares to keep research at a decent rate. Besides, the AI is teching faster than you which means most techs you are going for are already cheaper because 1 or more AIs already know them.

I would go into desired number of cities, but that is largely circumstancial. I've pulled off the pyramids and an early war only building two cities. However, as pointed out by futurehermit earlier in the thread, sometimes you start off real isolated and are forced to REX. To me, that is the worst possible scenario because I like an early war when trying to start up a SE.

thats how I ate it actually (ai REXd like crazy surrounding me). I started smack dab in the center of the continent. surrounded by greece, zulu, egypt. early war with egypt took 3 of their cities to capture Iron and a few other resources. zulu and greece attacked simultaneously. greece had a few eles and some cats, zulu had impis,swords, cats. not so good for me :D. new AI is a lot better I think. made the decision to hard build the pyramids a risky one.. even with stone.

NaZ

thats how I ate it actually (ai REXd like crazy surrounding me). I started smack dab in the center of the continent. surrounded by greece, zulu, egypt. early war with egypt took 3 of their cities to capture Iron and a few other resources. zulu and greece attacked simultaneously. greece had a few eles and some cats, zulu had impis,swords, cats. not so good for me :D. new AI is a lot better I think. made the decision to hard build the pyramids a risky one.. even with stone.

NaZ


I went back and read the original post. You were playing as Chinese and went for machinery. Not to rain on your parade, but I'm not a fan of the cho'k's. I think they are too expensive for what they give you. Double bummer as you were beelining for a unit, that could counter very little that was sent your way.

Anyway, I guess another point worth mentioning is with respect to military. Quantity, not quality, in the SE. Once the SE is up and running, I like to stick to military techs but I build the cheap units, scatter them somewhat recklessly, and then upgrade the ones that survive with the spoils of war. I don't build too many expensive units since hammers are usually scarce.

btw, alex and shaka both on your continent is a bad draw, especially when you're the meat in that sandwich.

my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

NaZ

It's all about feel, something that comes with more games played. I usually will run the research slider at 100% until alphabet and then drop it to 0%. There really isn't much you need asap once you hit alphabet (NOTE: I NEVER run caste system in spec econ. 2 scientists/city + GL + representation is sufficient prior to markets/guilds coming online). The exception is literature, which you need for GL. However, the AI tends to put this off so you're usually ok. Please note that I will use the GE from the pyramids on the GL so that I don't have to tie up one of my cities building it (although if I have marble and I high-production city I will consider using the GE asap on the parthenon and then build the GL manually).

Basically, when I go for the pyramids it looks something like this (assuming stone in 2nd city):

-Start with worker
-Worker develops food and hammer tiles
-chop settler at size 2. start pyramids
-settler 2nd city, start worker after monument (if necessary)
-hook up cities, stone when borders pop (if necessary)
-chop pyramids with 2 workers while 2nd city builds 2nd settler.

This will give me 3 total cities + the pyramids.

At that point I will starting cranking military. Situationally, I'll use police state to do this. Once an initial army is produced, I'll start libraries and assigning specialists (going back to representation if police state initially).

Don't worry about falling a bit behind in tech initially since once your econ is up and running, you will start to fly past the AI.

The nice thing about the SE is that you can get conquered cities up and running in no time. All it requires is some food tile upgrades and a chopped library: voila. Can't say the same for cottages.

So, yeah: 1) Pyramids + 2 extra cities; 2) Army asap of swords/axes/spears (mix in swords once you trade alpha for iron); 3) libraries and scientists; 4) Take out closest neighbour setting up libraries as you go; 5) Be first to liberalism with largest empire :D

2 scientists/city + GL + representation is sufficient prior to markets/guilds coming online).
(my bold)

Although you said earlier that SE if fine without Pyramids, you then said here that you don't need Caste System or anything else because the SE has Representation.

What is your position, SE fine on lower levels without Pyramids and difficult if not impossible on say Emperor and above without them?

Alternatively, you could be lucky and have you neighbor AI build them for you. Now you know target #1 for your axes/swords/spears!

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack your position, I just want to know from an expert how to better my game.:)

(my bold)

Although you said earlier that SE if fine without Pyramids, you then said here that you don't need Caste System or anything else because the SE has Representation.

What is your position, SE fine on lower levels without Pyramids and difficult if not impossible on say Emperor and above without them?

Alternatively, you could be lucky and have you neighbor AI build them for you. Now you know target #1 for your axes/swords/spears!

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack your position, I just want to know from an expert how to better my game.:)

Well, I generally play SE with the pyramids. If you don't have pyramids that is still ok (as others have pointed out), especially if you are philosophical. This latter approach is really driven by lightbulbed research as a result of increased #s of GP. If you don't have philosophical or the pyramids I believe you are better off going with CE, but that's just me. If you have both, cha-ching.

This applies to all levels of difficult up to Monarch. Above Monarch, I would say it is very difficult to build pyramids (emperor, sometimes ok, situationally). However, this is because the dynamic of the game changes imo. I don't see higher-level games as "normal" games because the insane AI bonuses alter what the player has to/can do to win.

I will never run caste system because slavery is too powerful to give up and has huge synergy with SE. The exception is if you're spiritual and can zip in and out of slavery and caste system (as others have pointed out). However, even when I'm spiritual I'm usually too lazy to do this (I don't use spiritual to its maximum potential because I'm not a super-anal player when it comes to micromanaging every detail :p ).

So, in short, I didn't mean to sound contradictory. SE without pyramids is still viable, it's just that I personally don't usually go SE without pyramids. Without pyramids you may need caste system to keep up in tech (if that is your goal), but I can't speak to this since I don't usually play this way.

Personally, I haven't had too many problems there. Early on, I've got a city designated as a finance center.

Exactly. I usually have a couple money cities in a SE. I guess you can call it hybrid, I call it covering my back.

This applies to all levels of difficult up to Monarch. Above Monarch, I would say it is very difficult to build pyramids (emperor, sometimes ok, situationally). However, this is because the dynamic of the game changes imo. I don't see higher-level games as "normal" games because the insane AI bonuses alter what the player has to/can do to win.
That's why i was experimenting with the several gambits to pyramids at emperor because i don't think you can finish pyramids in time without stone, especially not while also building a second city. I think it can be pulled of most of the time with one city at emperor level (at huge cost of normal development though). Above Emperor all the gambits will fall flat i think.

Drama is not usually on my list priorities. In a SE, I usually play a very aggresive role and don't have control over the culture slider for quite some time.

If I'm spiritual, I switch back and forth for a large majority of the game. I think the math has been done here where whipping is in fact, less effective, than natural progressive growth and building. To hell with those diminishing returns, I want it now!
SE.

I'm not concerned about the whipping. I'm more of a builder type of player. On average i fight one war in a game to get the number of cities up to 15-20. For the rest of the game i'm peacefullly building infra and developing shrines.

So the concern for me is the research drop when going back to slavery not the whipping itself which i tend to do for oxford university but also for rounds of libraries, theaters, markets etc for underdeveloped cities with no hammers.
whipping is great here but i miss the 10 scientists in my capital and other big cities for 5 turns.

Personally i like drama very much, it gives me the slider, theaters, the LB to philosophy, it's cheap and very tradable (for money) once i have currency because the ai civs don't go for drama early.

^^actually, i've changed my mind on drama as a result of reading some threads on these forums. i used to always put it off, but now i've been going for a sub-1AD lightbulb of philosophy via drama. it's highly effective and, you're right, the ai does not prioritize drama at all so it's a very tradeable tech.

^^actually, i've changed my mind on drama as a result of reading some threads on these forums. i used to always put it off, but now i've been going for a sub-1AD lightbulb of philosophy via drama. it's highly effective and, you're right, the ai does not prioritize drama at all so it's a very tradeable tech.
Indeed, an early philosophy LB is very powerful. I only go for col at this point when confucianism is not founded yet. I need caste system of course but when i have alphabet and literature and the choice is between Col and Drama i find that most of the time using caste system is too early because cities are too small at this point (especially if i've been gambiting to pyramids). If i have marble or an engineer then i go for Col or Drama before literature.

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

I agree that Pyramids are not neccessary for SE. However, the latest patch made Pyramids harder to get. If doubling the power of an SE for half the game is not nerfing, I don't know what is. The Pyramids literally double (if not more) the research power of an SE from the specialists. (Not counting GPs) I think that the Pyramids are not essential but are very important.

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??I'm playing at emperor now and i agree that the cost is indeed too high. I never said that you need Pyramids for SE but it gives a nice boost if you can get it, which usually can be done at Monarch or below. I think an SE is primarily about lightbulbing techs and flexibility though. BTW do you generally go for constitution early?

I agree that Pyramids are not neccessary for SE. However, the latest patch made Pyramids harder to get. If doubling the power of an SE for half the game is not nerfing, I don't know what is. The Pyramids literally double (if not more) the research power of an SE from the specialists. (Not counting GPs) I think that the Pyramids are not essential but are very important.
I don't think Pyramids double research because most of the techs come in with lightbulbing and trading and there are aslo trade routes contibuting independent of representaion. It's dependent on playing style but for me i guess having pyramids speeds up research some 20%.

Pyramids are not necessary for the SE, but they make it much more powerful. While trading and lightbulbing are certainly a huge part of it, pyramids REALLY enhance your standard teching...

How much better is Representation than Hereditary Rule in an early small empire?

HR allows a much larger capital to be run when it produces most of the research and has the best multipliers (academy, library and monastries). It allows other cities to help the capital by sending cheap units to garrison it.

The bonus beakers from Representation are useful but they are mostly spread around the small cities with low multipliers. The +3 happiness is good for most moderate cities but not enough for the capital which has to rely on calendar or religious happiness to grow to its early potential.

How much better is Representation than Hereditary Rule in an early small empire?

HR allows a much larger capital to be run when it produces most of the research and has the best multipliers (academy, library and monastries). It allows other cities to help the capital by sending cheap units to garrison it.

The bonus beakers from Representation are useful but they are mostly spread around the small cities with low multipliers. The +3 happiness is good for most moderate cities but not enough for the capital which has to rely on calendar or religious happiness to grow to its early potential.

I'd say the answer to that question is circumstancial and no doubt both civics have their uses with an early small empire. My preference (with the pyramids built running an SE) is for representation. The +3 happiness will probably extend to all cities (small empire). Rare is the start where ivory, gold, silver, or gems are not available (one of them is almost always close by; if you have zero of those, than calendar is a necessity because plantation happiness will be present in abundance). Throw in religion or a wonder; most civs have some other means of happiness (hammams, charismatic, etc).

So, in the early game in said environment, I have yet to have a problem where I've outgrown my happiness limit (on monarch difficulty, where there is an initial +5 happiness cap). If an early war gets too long, HR is a good idea if the WW starts accumulating (not to mention combating the "we long to join our homeland" penalties from cities conquered). Or, it can be whipped away.

Regarding the bonus beakers, all cities have a small multiplier early on except your one city that might have an academy. If we're running 2 scientists under representation, that's 12 beakers, and with a library that becomes 15. 3 beakers * 5 cities (small early empire) is 15 lost beakers a turn running HR instead of REP (I think that is significant in the early game). Plus you're loading up cities with troops instead of roughing someone up. A healthy garrison is a good thing though. I'm lousy at stocking troops in my cities. They get just enough military to not whine about it....one stinkin' warrior or archer, the dregs of the very early game.

What happens under HR if somone declares war and moves in on your turf. You don't want yourself pillaged so you're pulling troops out to defend good tiles and for each removed soldier, you lose +1 happiness which may lead to using the whip or living with some unhappiness until it can be remedied. I think the same unhappiness occurs under REP, and you can whip it away or deal with it for a short while. If some unhappiness occurs and your city is still growing, it's just an excuse to run another specialist which is actually a boon under representation.

Don't forget that with HR, you have to PAY for your happiness. What do I mean? Each unit costs $$ in maintenance. The +3beakers/specialist shouldn't be underestimated, especially in the crucial early game. Sure, once you get markets, guilds, etc. etc. etc. in the capital you get some nice multipliers, but what about all those critical early game turns, where you just have libraries? Imo it is in those crucial times that the SE really shows what it's made of.

Don't forget that with HR, you have to PAY for your happiness. What do I mean? Each unit costs $$ in maintenance. The +3beakers/specialist shouldn't be underestimated, especially in the crucial early game. Sure, once you get markets, guilds, etc. etc. etc. in the capital you get some nice multipliers, but what about all those critical early game turns, where you just have libraries? Imo it is in those crucial times that the SE really shows what it's made of.The 3 extra beakers/specialist are indeed very nice in the early game but instead of the pyramids i can also get at least 2 workers, one settler and a couple of units which might well be more important at higher levels. But if i see a good possibility of gettting it (stone and extra choppable wood) i still go for it.

The 3 extra beakers/specialist are indeed very nice in the early game but instead of the pyramids i can also get at least 2 workers, one settler and a couple of units which might well be more important at higher levels. But if i see a good possibility of gettting it (stone and extra choppable wood) i still go for it.


Agreed; with stone the effort of making the Pyramids is equivalent to losing the opportunity to found another early city. Without stone it is equivalent to 2 early cities. An Industrious leader is somewhere between.

Ask yourself this when going for the Pyramid gambit, am I better off with 2 cities and the Pyramids or with 4 cities? The so called benefit of free beakers comes at a significant development cost.

Can those 2 extra cities (which should always be well ahead of the same cities founded later in the Pyramid case) produce the same amount of research? Yes, and often much more depending the situation. They also produce more hammers and culture and other benefits like grabbing resources.

Indeed the difference seems to be roughly 2 cities without stone:

I tried 2 different scenarios on Emperor, a gambit with the great wall --> pyramids and a scenario with just normal development.In the first scenario i managed to build pyramids 800 bc but i had only one good city with one worker just building a settler at this time. I had to build a library first to assign a specialist so that the GE for pyramids arrived in time.

In the second scenario i had 3 good cities and 2 workers connecting resources and building mines about 800 bc.

Apart from the fact that the second scenario seems better, the first is not very reliable, i had to reload a few times to get pyramids before the Americans. Also with assigning a scientist to speed up the GE there is a small chance (some 20 %) that you get a GS this would more or less mean game over.

The benefit isn't "so called", it's a benefit. The thing is, with pyramids, you start off smaller, but you end up larger. With a SE with pyramids you are able to expand much larger than you could with a CE and your tech rate will be much faster than a SE without the pyramids.

And don't forget that when you are recovering after building the pyramids, you can use police state to build your army.

If you have stone in your capital or 2nd city imo you should always make a play for the pyramids (unless you have like no forests to chop).

^I agree that the Pyramids are a huge benefit, especially for a largely peaceful style of playing like mine. It's just hard to get it at emperor, i usually went for it on Monarch.

I think the whole pyramids thing is kind of crazy in the sense that it just completely changes the face of a SE. Yes its possible to run one without them but still, its kind of a thorn in ones side to know how many beakers are wasted without them...

I know its slightly stupid to discuss, but I actually think it would be better if they either removed the +3 beakers from representation and/or changed what the pyramids did (free granary in every city anyone? :) ) and just gave some more beakers to the scientist specialist.

Just imagine if there was a wonder that added +2 or +3 commerce to every cottage... it would be just crazy to pass up...

I think the whole pyramids thing is kind of crazy in the sense that it just completely changes the face of a SE. Yes its possible to run one without them but still, its kind of a thorn in ones side to know how many beakers are wasted without them...

I know its slightly stupid to discuss, but I actually think it would be better if they either removed the +3 beakers from representation and/or changed what the pyramids did (free granary in every city anyone? :) ) and just gave some more beakers to the scientist specialist.

Just imagine if there was a wonder that added +2 or +3 commerce to every cottage... it would be just crazy to pass up...

Then representation would be useless...then I would never build pyramids (like stonehenge and obelisks, granaries are easy enough to poprush when whipping away unhappiness)...no one would ever pass up that wonder, I agree. However, as many people point out, pyramids tend to be situational, at least in the highest levels (emperor+), since they are very expensive without industrial and/or especially stone. Plus you start out with a smaller initial empire. It's high-risk, high-reward. I don't think pyramids are unbalanced, but they sure are nice. I'm working on the great wall-GE-free pyramids gambit with gandhi right now and I think I'm going to have something to knock peoples' socks off with :p

Then representation would be useless...then I would never build pyramids (like stonehenge and obelisks, granaries are easy enough to poprush when whipping away unhappiness)...no one would ever pass up that wonder, I agree. However, as many people point out, pyramids tend to be situational, at least in the highest levels (emperor+), since they are very expensive without industrial and/or especially stone. Plus you start out with a smaller initial empire. It's high-risk, high-reward. I don't think pyramids are unbalanced, but they sure are nice. I'm working on the great wall-GE-free pyramids gambit with gandhi right now and I think I'm going to have something :goodjob: to knock peoples' socks off with :pI would be very interested if you can get this gambit to work on emperor with a certain margin of safety :goodjob: .I've also tried it as Ghandi on a not so good start without stone and and only 6 forests. I couldn't really make it work and i really tried hard with different sequences. Keep us posted!

Then representation would be useless...then I would never build pyramids (like stonehenge and obelisks, granaries are easy enough to poprush when whipping away unhappiness)...no one would ever pass up that wonder, I agree. However, as many people point out, pyramids tend to be situational, at least in the highest levels (emperor+), since they are very expensive without industrial and/or especially stone. Plus you start out with a smaller initial empire. It's high-risk, high-reward. I don't think pyramids are unbalanced, but they sure are nice. I'm working on the great wall-GE-free pyramids gambit with gandhi right now and I think I'm going to have something to knock peoples' socks off with :p

Without stone/industrious the pyramids are horribly difficult to get. I once played on the right side of a Great Plains map (just grassland and forests, no stone) and basically had to chop an entire fat cross worth of trees to get them :)

The granary thing is actually what the pyramids used to do in civ1 or civ2, cant remember which..

I do think they are slightly unbalanced in the sense that IMHO the pyramids just blow any other wonder away in power, especially since they become buildable at masonry, which is one of the earliest techs around..

If I'm in the mood to play a specialist game and get beat to the pyramids I'll often start a war just to conquer them..

If I ever see a neighbour builds the pyramids and I'm not going for them (usually when I go for them I know I can get them), I'll make him the first target.

Pyramids' strength depends on running a spec econ (some exceptions). I agree that they are more powerful than most of the other early wonders, although of course oracle can be quite powerful given the right conditions as well.

And I will chop a whole fat cross worth of forests to get the pyramids. I think it's worth it :p I don't think anyone would dispute pyramids are very powerful. But I think you have to pay quite a lot (especially with the recent nerf) to get them.

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

This is very important. A lot of people think that a hamlet is as good as a scientist. Your science slider won't(and shouldn't) be at 100% all game. Realistically you hover around 50% maybe 60%. Plus of course scientists produce GPP. With the pyramids a SE simply blows a CE out of the water in early+mid game.

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

Would you say that smart lightbulbing using GS is the most important part of an SE, rather than the per/turn beakers from the specialists?

I have noticed for myself that with good bulbing its possible to pull of fantastic tech leaps such as early biology etc. Still I've not made my mind up about settling great scientists.. outside of oxford I would say its not very good..

YES, that is the point. Early research in SE is mostly done with bulbing not beakers. Once you get Representation it's different.
Settling scientists is the worst option you can do with them.

Settling scientists is the worst option you can do with them.


Post oxford/observatory I sometimes think of settling in the oxford city, since I can get ~40 beakers/turn with the scientist then and bulbing isnt so very powerful then (i.e. gives only ca 1/4 of the juicy techs).

If GS at that time gives you ~2000 beakers with lbulbing, and settling that scientists gives you ~40 beakers per turn (meaning, takes 50 turns to give you 2000), which one you think is better?

Ok, I agree with that.

Would you say the same logic extends to merchants (i.e. trade mission rather than settle), and engineers (wonders..). I do have a habit of settling my engineers in the ironworks city because with 3 or more settled engineers + ironworks + optionally Heroic epic I can crank out units like theres no tomorrow.

I used to think settling GSs in your super science city is the way to go, but that's just plain wrong (thanks acidsatyr, i've learned a lot from your games). Settling them will theoretically give you more beakers in the long run, but the thing is once you add tech trading to the equation you get WAAAY more beakers from lightbulbing because you then trade that (usually superior) tech to a couple AI civs for a bunch more tech = major saved beakers :D