In my on-going campaign to give more power to the people, and to, in turn, get them more involved, I would like to make the following suggestion as an amendment to the constitution:

I propose that two new cabinet positions be created. These ministers will simply be the representatives of the general public, and have no responsibilities, but to vote on issues put before the cabinet. They will be elected as all ministers are, and their votes will be decided by a poll taken of all citizens. They MUST follow the results of these polls to prevent these positions from becoming politicized. They will also be welcome to make suggestions during the turn chats.

Citizens, please feel free to post your opinions on this.
Cabinet Ministers, please state your position, yea or nay to this proposition, clearly in your reply.

This wouldbeanice thing to implement, but it would turn cabinet votes into citizen votes a n d the citizens vo tes are more_plentiful_than_cabinet_members,_so_it_would_d efeat_the_purpose_of_cabinet_votes.


And_why_two_of_them?

Sorryabout_the_lack_of_spaces,_my_spacebar_is_scre wing_up :(

The citizens would only get two votes in the cabinet. I don't think a few extra polls would really hurt the forum that much.

Two of them to keep the cabinet membership an even number, so as not to deprive the president of his tie-breaking power.

I'm backing up this Idea.

The people should have more power. But it's up to TheDuckOfFlanders if it's a good Idea and if it can be applied to the rules.

Power to the People!

/President Grey Fox

i think it'S a good idear but i think we only need one.

IMHO, a bad idea as now we'll need to wait for these ministers to finish polling the citizenry before they can even vote in the cabinet meetings. Can drag out each cabinet decision by 1-2 days more since those citizen polls need to be put out a certain amt of time so that everyone can have an opportunity to vote in them.

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
IMHO, a bad idea as now we'll need to wait for these ministers to finish polling the citizenry before they can even vote in the cabinet meetings. Can drag out each cabinet decision by 1-2 days more since those citizen polls need to be put out a certain amt of time so that everyone can have an opportunity to vote in them.

Few decisions are made by the entire cabinet. Most are made by one minister. It only goes to a vote if enough people voice disagreement. I don't forsee too many cabinet votes, but I could be wrong. Anyway, 24 hours would have to be enough time for those polls.

Even if not all citizen have voted have time to vote, it will at least give them some power.

i think it should be a 24 hours poll max, this way everyone will have the time to go vote on it.

I agree with this Idea, but like others have said the poll part may take away some time, but so long as we have a reasonable time limit to the poll then I'm for it.

:goodjob:

Originally posted by eyrei
Few decisions are made by the entire cabinet. Most are made by one minister. It only goes to a vote if enough people voice disagreement. I don't forsee too many cabinet votes, but I could be wrong. Anyway, 24 hours would have to be enough time for those polls. If there's a disagreement, why not just post an open poll for the entire citizenry to vote? Is it becos leaders in the govt have more powerful votes than the citizenry?

In the old-format Civ2 demo game, almost everything was voted on by the citizenry with the govt serving almost entirely in an advisory role and as pollsters. In this present game format, seems like almost nothing for the citizenry to do, except to observe and comment. :(

I'm not sure that this is necessary. The cabinet is (except for this term) already elected by the people and responsible to make decisions that the majority of the people want. If a cabinet member doesn't do this he/she can be impeached. Isn't this just creating two cabinet members at-large?

If I'm missing the point here, please explain (in small words - I've got a 2 month old so my brain is sleep deprived).

I do not think this is a good idea. The president and cabinet structure in place seems rational.

It is a good idea to 'get the people' more involved, but there's not much going on now. The only debate of any significance seems to be the one on whether to use dense building or not. That's not enough to fire me into any action.

Knight-Dragon has a good point though. There's not much for us citizen's to do. If this were a true 'democracy' it would be more like K-D's blurb about the other game - citizen's voting on almost everything and the president implementing those descisions.

Right now our main power lies in elections. And to get someone into the presidency we have to put him or her into the cabinet first!:crazyeye:

I don't like this idea.
The people have enough power assuming that the ministers and the president won't overrule the people's decisions all the time.
If we don't like the cabinets decisions we open discussions, that may lead to voting among people that sets a final decision. If this decision is not overruled by the leaders, the people always have their way.
IMHO, the only thing that must become clear is that overruling the people's decisions must be an extremely rare action that should be taken by the cabinet leaders only in special situations.

Originally posted by donsig
Knight-Dragon has a good point though. There's not much for us citizen's to do. If this were a true 'democracy' it would be more like K-D's blurb about the other game - citizen's voting on almost everything and the president implementing those descisions.Aye, but in that game, players dwindled to only a few, due to a mass exodus to the MP democracy game off-forums (they got 3 demo nations in an MP game, fighting each other ;)). That's why we implemented the present format - to speed up the game and to ensure govt carries on even if citizens dwindle. ;)

Aye, but in that game, players dwindled to only a few, due to a mass exodus to the MP democracy game off-forums

That was Civ 2, right? We don't really have to worry about that happening here, do we?

Since this thread is about giving power to the people I am interested to know how all this was started. We have a constitution that provides for elections. Was the initial government 9the crrent one) elected? I got here a couple days after the April 1 start date.

No, not elected. Self-elected, nominated, volunteered, whatever etc. First-come-first-served basis. There's even a thread on it somewhere below. ;) A bit unorthodox but we need to jumpstart the game.

Our first elections in one month's time I think fr startpoint. Ducky'll supervise them.

I am not sure this is such a good idea. In the Civ 2 demo game we originally used citizen polls for everything and it proved to create a huge amount of confusion which resulted in most players leaving the game. This is why Duck decided to implement cabinet votes here and I support his decision.

Why don`t we put this idea on the back burned and see how the current system works out when our civ grows? I can well imagine situations where the people should have more of a voice while simple open polls are to open to momentary mood swings...

I like the idea - why not wait and see if we should try it later????

Originally posted by Shaitan
I'm not sure that this is necessary. The cabinet is (except for this term) already elected by the people and responsible to make decisions that the majority of the people want. If a cabinet member doesn't do this he/she can be impeached. Isn't this just creating two cabinet members at-large?

If I'm missing the point here, please explain (in small words - I've got a 2 month old so my brain is sleep deprived).

I intended that the two new cabinet positions would be non political, by not actually giving them any power, other than the ability to represent the will of the people in cabinet votes, which can often have a drastic impact on the direction of the game. Even though the president and cabinet are normally going to be elected, that does not mean that they agree entirely with the general populace. Think of these two cabinet members as a sort of senate, to balance the power of the executive branch.

Originally posted by eyrei


I intended that the two new cabinet positions would be non political, by not actually giving them any power, other than the ability to represent the will of the people in cabinet votes, which can often have a drastic impact on the direction of the game. Even though the president and cabinet are normally going to be elected, that does not mean that they agree entirely with the general populace. Think of these two cabinet members as a sort of senate, to balance the power of the executive branch.
Gotcha. Well, I still don't see it as necessary but I also don't see any harm in it. At worst they're titular positions and perhaps redundant. At best they'll get more civilians involved in the direct governance of Phoenatica. I'd vote for it.

good idea

If this deccision is made it will just make the voting process even slower. If we leave it up to cabinet we can make faster deccisons whitch is usefull in the early years.

Originally posted by russia1292000
If this deccision is made it will just make the voting process even slower. If we leave it up to cabinet we can make faster deccisons whitch is usefull in the early years.
It shouldn't. It would be the responsibility of these cabinet members to poll and read the populace on a continuous basis. It's actually a lot of work here as these people would need to keep abrest of all aspects of the game and citizen desires whereas the "positioned" cabinet members are only responsible for representing the people's will in their particular area of the government.

in reading these comments, one thing i don't see is some saying "if i'm elected to this position of a pseudo-minister, will i be able to run for the presidency?". seems to me they would.

eyrei is proposing a watchdog cabinet chair to the general public. not one, but two. something that should have been done in this country (usa) many years ago. the domestic leader is proposing a position of strenth, responsibilty, and privilege. many feel that the cabinet positions are to closely guarded, in the sense that they are the gateways to the presidency, and therefore they have no chance of the highest office. this answers that cry. a freelance ministry, answering to the cabinet and to the people, by way of polling. what could be better, as the position is not tied to any department, yet has all the privileges?

personally, i don't believe we need another cabinet position where the minister sits in a bunker 30 miles from the action and just criticizes the action of the people in the trenches. but this is a major contribution to the freedom of the people. this is a monumental opportunity for the "people" to be heard. therefore, the proposal has my full support, and the support of the DOC.

Eyrei, your proposal has a lot of proponents, including several cabinet members. I'd say the idea has more than enough merit to go for a general poll yes/no and then a cabinet vote to change the constitution.

I say yea for more cabinet ministers:goodjob:

Eyrei is currently polling (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19838) for citizen approval/disproval of this measure. Let your voice be heard.