I have never played a Civ game. Never. I have played a few turn based games before, but none of them were of the scope and scale of any Civ game.

I've been intrigued by the whole civilization building aspect, eventually trying to take over the world, and have attempted to do so in various different RTS games. But they're all so fast-paced, where clicks per second is what determines your chances of success or failure.

So I finally broke down, bought CivIV, after hearing (reading in a few different reviews) that it had a good tutorial system. Thinking that I wouldn't be overwhelmed immediately, and I could learn the basics of the game.

SO what happens after installing it, and starting up the tutorial. The first thing Digi-Sid tells me is that the Settler builds cities, and this tile over here looks appropriate for a city. I look at that tile, and compare it to the tile the settlers are currently on, and they're identical. What the... Why is that tile over there appropriate while this tile isn't Digi-Sid? Of course he didn't answer my question at all.

I realize the move was probably to explain the movement system, but if the tutorial is going to say that that specific tile looks appropriate, I want to know why it's appropriate. Then I was hoping the tutorial would tell me that in my own games, what makes an appropriate tile for building your city. What is it I'm supposed to be looking for? Dunno, the tutorial never did tell me...

Later, Digi-Sid tells me I should build an obelisk. Does he tell me why I should build an obelisk? Nope. Does he tell me what benefits it'll offer? Nope. Is an obelisk the only choices for whatever advantage it supposedly offers? Dunno, Digi-Sid never really tutors me on what any of this means.

The tutorial is often extremely misleading as to the actual game play. The research, Digi-Sid tells me, he's turned off so he can explain these other concepts. (of which he never "explains"). Then he turns on the research so he can tutor us about it. However, when playing a real game, and the popups asking about research on the very first turn, well to say the least, I was not prepared for this happening. There's a whole slew of other little basic gameplay mechanics that were not expressed during this tutorial, or was mis-represented.

There was one point in the tutorial, where you pressed End Turn 4 or 5 times ina row to accomplish something. Come on now Digi-Sid, the gameplay is really comprised of 4-5 empty turns? Probably not, but that's how the tutorial tutors beginning players how to play...

I really do want to play this game, but I'm really questioning my ability to. I've read various postings here, read through some of the strategy guides, but they all assume the player wants to jump right in and learn (memorize) each and every ability, each and every technology before actually playing.

I've kind of come to the conclusion that unless you know (or even want to know) every little statistic, every little formula, every little nuance of this game, that you will fail the majority of the time. The reviews all say it's accessible for players who've never played a Civ game before, but honetly, I don't see it. This game is not accessible to complete beginners whatsoever, IMO. I really have no ideas on what to do, and all Digi-Sid did in his tutorial was confuse me even more.

I'd like a tutorial that will actually tutor me, and teach me to play this game. With the modding capabilities of this game, are they advanced enough to build a tutorial scenario? Would anyone want to? Will anyone do it?

Or should I just uninstall, and move on?

First off, welcome to CFC!

The tutorial is rather limited, and that's on purpose. It sounds like you have some experience with turn-based strategy games, so you were expecting more depth from it. I think it's just designed to teach the basic game controls and elements, and I think it does a good job of that, but it's not a strategy tutorial.

The closest thing to the sort of tutorial you're after is probably Sulla's Civilization Walkthrough (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132711). Aside from that, read the game manual and some of the other articles in the War Academy (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/). Within the game itself, there's always the Civilopedia for quick, basic reference. Often, hovering the mouse over certain screen elements will provide additional information that may be handy (for example, in the city screen, you want to build the Hanging Gardens but it's greyed out; you hover over it and discover you have to build an Aqueduct first).

This is a complex game and that's on purpose; it's what its many fans expect, nay, demand. The game attempts to simulate, in a limited way, the entire scope of human history, after all. It does take some time to learn enough of the game elements to feel like you have a handle on things; then you have to start learning strategy and tactics! :crazyeye:

This is all part of the journey. Be patient with the game, and with yourself. Play at the lower difficulty levels at first, which are more forgiving of haphazard decision-making. You'll start noticing that certain cities in certain locations don't grow or become productive, some city build choices don't seem to do much for you, and certain things you do please the AI civs while other things tick them off. Most people learn to play this game through gleaning concepts from boards like this, then attempting to apply those concepts within the game.

Is it worth all the time and effort? The very existence of this site and others like it, and the high activity level here, pretty much indicate that a lot of people think the answer is a resounding "YES!". Ultimately, it's a matter of personal taste and preference, of course, but you have to give the game a chance, and it does require a substantial commitment.

First off, that's a mighty long post for your first! Welcome to CFC though, there's a lot of information here to soak in. :goodjob: :beer:

I agree wholeheartedly about the fact that the tutorial isn't good. If you've played Civ before, you don't need the tutorial since the games are similar, but if you haven't, the tutorial isn't that good. So, what is a good tutorial? I'll link you to a few places that have good walkthroughs and stories to get a feel for the game.

The first, and best in my opinion, is Sullla's Walkthrough (http://www.garath.net/Sullla/civ4intro.html). Sullla was one of the beta testers for Civ4, so he has a good knowledge of the game. However, the reason why I consider this to be the best is because it was written, and published, right before the game was released. Therefore, everyone he was explaining it to was new to the game (just like you). He didn't assume people knew anything more than just some of the hype and screenshots that had been built up. He goes very in-depth with screenshots about religion, war, expansion, great people, and all the basics of the standard Civ4 game. It's a great read (quite long, too), but most importantly, it doesn't make any assumptions about your prior knowledge of Civ4.

Another great source of reading material are Succession Games (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=168&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=views), where teams of players play out a game of Civ by taking a few turns at a time (I sorted that forum by number of views, since the more views a thread has probably indicates quality). In particular, Cuban Isolationists (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492) is a good read, especially since it was started right after the game's release by two beta testers, so, again, they explain a lot of the game and their thoughts along with screenshots.

Now, to the last part of your question. Is there a better automated tutorial, or a tutorial scenario? No, there isn't - just the standard in-game one. I'm not sure if it's a question of whether the game is advanced another to allow it or if people just don't have a desire, but either way, there is none. However, the best source of information and learning is right in front of you. These forums. You can ask questions in this General Discussions forum, read the games played in the Stories & Tales forum, but I think the best part for a beginner who would like some advice and answers to questions would be the Strategies & Tips (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=155) forum.

It's not just to discuss the "latest ways to win in 5 turns while getting 100000 points!" In fact, the best part of this forum is the ability to post a thread with a saved game from your recent game and get comments, or, even to post an entire thread, start your game from the beginning, and get comments and discussion along the way (a la this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=194137) and this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191527) thread as examples), at your own pace.

So, you've got a lot of choices. Personally, I'd give Sullla' walkthrough a read, maybe a SG or two, and then I'd return to Civ4, start up a game, and post a thread about it. Ask your questions about expansion or anything else, get some feedback from some top notch players, and then continue on. It's how a lot of people like you have improved. :)


edit: Sisiutil and I both had basically the same things to say (I just took much longer to write it with all the links to look up).
edit2: Wow! Add Psyringe to that list of crossposters.

I wonder where you read that the in-game tutorial was good - it looks nice, but imho it's too often misleading or unclear to be called good. That said, writing a tutorial for a game as complex as Civ is not an easy task.

To answer your last question: No, don't uninstall and move. You sound as if Civ4 might be what you look for, after you got into it. It's just that the "getting into it" isn't that easy.

As far as tutorials or guides go, have a look at The War Academy (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/) here at CivFanatics. Especially Sisutil's Beginning Strategy Guide (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132757&d=1153111018) looks as if it might be able to help you, although I haven't read it myself and can't really comment on it.

One hint I can give you: Don't expect to understand all game aspects in one go. There are just too many. Instead, choose an easy difficulty level, build up an empire, and from time to time think about what you're doing and how you perhaps could have done it better. It's not uncommon that one needs a couple of games until one understands the usage of Great Persons, for example. And even after playing dozens of games, I still find new ways of doing things. I recommend to find a difficulty level where you can afford doing major blunders (because they will happen) and still have fun playing.

Edit: And here I was wondering why nobody had answered the question yet, when in fact Sisutil and Ginger Ale were already busy typing much better replies than I could have provided. :)

Yup, the ingame tutorial stinks. I had atleast played civ2 & civ3 so I was prepared a bit. But I tried the civ4 tutorial and found that it just plain stinks. I quit the tutorial and began just fumbling thru a few games while at the same time, when not playing the game, I'd read thru these forums. When I had a specific question, I'd search here. There is always someone here who knows the answer, they're good that way. Soon you will be an expert. Don't get discouraged, you'll be an addict soon enough. And if you don't like certain things about the game, there are always mods that change game play.

As for the digi sid telling you to build a certain city in a certain tile, try looking down in the right hand corner of the screen above the minimap. There are toggle buttons there. One of them reveals how good a food source each tile is, one points out the resources better, if any, etc. I didn't know about these until recently and I use them all the time because I have a hard time locating resouces without the toggle on. Digi-sid probably noticed a food source or resource nearby that you had no idea how to find. Also, mouse over each tile and in the lower left there is an explaination of what is on the tile. Some have resources such as oil, and it will have text in red that tells you "needs oil well", inorder to reap the benefits from the oil, you'll need a well on that tile and a road connecting it to your cities. Some resources won't show up until you discover a certain technology.

I wonder where you read that the in-game tutorial was good - it looks nice, but imho it's too often misleading or unclear to be called good. That said, writing a tutorial for a game as complex as Civ is not an easy task.

I really coulda swore I had seen it more than once, but I can only find 1 reference now that states the tutorial was good...

http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/civilizationiv/review.html

"Civ IV is addictive, compelling, and a tribute to the series. There’s even a nice little tutorial dictated by the genius creator himself so all the new kids can get in on this one. It seems there’s actually nothing negative worth saying about the game, but why expect anything less of Sid Meier? It’s brilliant; full-stop; end."

yah, never trust those reviews that say that there is nothing negative. There is always something in a game that is annoying. But thank god for the modders. If you want a review on any civ game now or in the future. Come here and read thru the fanatics posts. They'll give you the truth.

I have never played a Civ game. Never.

I really do want to play this game, but I'm really questioning my ability to. I've read various postings here, read through some of the strategy guides, but they all assume the player wants to jump right in and learn (memorize) each and every ability, each and every technology before actually playing.

Or should I just uninstall, and move on?
i definitely vote no to uninstalling just now.

part of the fun of civ is that you do learn so much by jumping in, not as far as memorizing but in seeing things, learning your style, etc. there's so much flexibility ... the tech tree you can go thru in all kinds of different orders, depending on priorities, and even reach the same tech thru different prereqs. units can change utility by what promotions you pick. of course, the price you pay for the flexibility is complexity, and a higher learning curve. part of what frustrates me is that i don't know who to pick to be 95% of the time, too many choices even before you start the game!!

as far as never before playing civ, that doesn't place you at a disadvantage IMO. i had to re-learn so much since so much has changed. particularly the tech tree memorization that's bothering you, in the old versions you did have to memorize it, the choice of different paths to your goal wasn't there. the civilopedia (can reach it by F12 if you don't want to click that corner button) does have quite a bit of useful information, but i'd have organized it differently if i was in charge. i use it often even past (most of) the learning curve of mechanics. things i still haven't memorized are which units can get what promotions, which ones upgrade to what, which techs obsolete certain things that i don't want to become obsolete yet.

managing your foreign relations and diplomacy is still very very hard for me. some people hate you because you traded with their worst enemy ... up to -4 points before you ever met them, so how were you supposed to know hehe. i'm getting better at that with practice, and the sig i mention in the next paragraph will help you learn that too.

other posters above me have mentioned things to read. some of course make more sense after you've played a bit yourself. one thought for the future...after you have played some, the links in sisiutil's sig can be priceless. i've learned a lot from his ALC - All Leaders Challenge. he's going thru playing as different leaders, in long threads on these boards asking advice from others and sharing what he learns and letting us learn from his mistakes, quite brave of him! and his comments and others in the threads make me laugh.

things that helped me right at the start, or that i wish i'd known at the very beginning (forgive me if you know these already):
- i hit ctrl-t to show the map as a grid (easier to know the radius when i'm going to place a city, or how to best move a unit), ctrl-r to show the resources (some are hard to spot, it can block the view so often i turn it off til a new one will show up).
- instead of going thru the F1 list of all cities, i often hit the insert key which takes you to the city screen of the nearest city. from there, you can use the arrows keys to cycle thru all of your cities if you want to check on them, micromanage, etc.
- learning how to best improve your territory with workers is hard at first, but i never automate my workers. the AI just makes choices i'd not make, altho doing it yourself of course takes micromanagement and time.
- read not only the strategy guides but CFC forums in general (oh wait you knew that one). the search function can be helpful sometimes but not others. don't hesitate to post a question, i've never had anyone yell at me for asking something that's been posted some time ago.
- hitting \ will take you back to the last unit you told to do something. i often need that to cancel the orders i gave that unit when i change my mind.
- save early, save often. the game doesn't crash for me, max of 4 times a day if i play ALL day long, some days not at all, but when it does i like to have a save. sometimes i save at key decision points or when i decide to go for a certain type of victory, so that if i'm in the mood later i can replay the game from that point to see the alternate universe.

i do hope that you enjoy civ4! give it some time, the learning curve definitely takes a while. if after many attempts and reading, you're still frustrated as all get out, then perhaps at that point it would be the time to decide it's not the game for you. that's because the complexity is part of the beauty of it, why it lasts so long and isn't a 'play for a week then move to another game' thing. but if learning the complexity isn't your bag even after giving it a fair shot, that might be a sign.

oh and don't read that KMadCandy hello kitty chick's posts unless you have way too much free time. she rambles on and on!

...........things i still haven't memorized are which units can get what promotions, which ones upgrade to what, which techs obsolete certain things that i don't want to become obsolete yet..........................
......................things that helped me right at the start, or that i wish i'd known at the very
- instead of going thru the F1 list of all cities, i often hit the insert key which takes you to the city screen of the nearest city. from there, you can use the arrows keys to cycle thru all of your cities if you want to check on them, micromanage, etc.................

I still don't completely understand the units promotion either, doesn't bother me though. I haven't seen any benefit from the promoted units, partly because I can never remember where my best units are. I'll learn though.

As for the city thing you mentioned, you learn something new every day. I never new you could hit F1 to list the cities. I never tried the function buttons before.

After you play for awhile and you check the civlopedia, there is one menu in there that shows a list of helpful hints. Some of those ideas are good and helpful.

As for the city thing you mentioned, you learn something new every day. I never new you could hit F1 to list the cities. I never tried the function buttons before.
One thing with that screen it took me ages to discover: if you click on the icon next to the city name at the far left, it opens that city's detailed city screen.

I also like using the city list to sort by city production or research, to find the best candidate to build a wonder or get an academy, for example.

I also like using the city list to sort by city production or research, to find the best candidate to build a wonder or get an academy, for example.
me too, but it only shows some altered form of the base hammers. maybe with your civic bonus or something. so when you actually go into the city, it can have a ton more hammers than show on that list. for science and commerce i think it's accurate, but i never totally take it as gospel for the hammers.

my favorite trick for promotions is to city-raider-fy warriors/axemen/swordsmen/macemen etc. you can upgrade them to musketmen/grenadiers/riflemen, which aren't eligible for CR, but they keep the old promotions. a CR3 rifleman is a thing of beauty and demolition.

me too, but it only shows some altered form of the base hammers. maybe with your civic bonus or something. so when you actually go into the city, it can have a ton more hammers than show on that list. for science and commerce i think it's accurate, but i never totally take it as gospel for the hammers.
Good point, which is why I always go to the city to double-check before making a final decision. ;)

my favorite trick for promotions is to city-raider-fy warriors/axemen/swordsmen/macemen etc. you can upgrade them to musketmen/grenadiers/riflemen, which aren't eligible for CR, but they keep the old promotions. a CR3 rifleman is a thing of beauty and demolition.
One of my favourite tricks as well. CR3 Grenadiers are even better--available with fewer techs and they get a bonus versus Riflemen, which the AI likes to defend with. Considering that CR3 gives Grenadiers another bonus versus gunpowder units, they're awesome. I became convinced of their value in the Qin ALC game.

Though I think we're getting off-topic here...

I've read various postings here, read through some of the strategy guides, but they all assume the player wants to jump right in and learn (memorize) each and every ability, each and every technology before actually playing.
I learned the game by just plunging in and consulting the game manual when I was stumped. I followed the suggestions of the city advisor, agreed with reasonable requests from AI opponents and generally just let the game play out. Its hard to lose at the Settler difficulty level. I did it a few times and moved up in difficulty when I got a more detailed understanding of the game.

I would like to repeat suggestion that you look at Sulla's Walkthrough (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=132711). I found this to be very helpful.

I've kind of come to the conclusion that unless you know (or even want to know) every little statistic, every little formula, every little nuance of this game, that you will fail the majority of the time. ?
Nah, its not that hard. A person can certainly put a lot of brainpower into the game. And these forums have some truly talented and knowledgeable members, many who enjoy playing hard and choose difficulty levels which stack the odds against them. But Noble level is the difficulty level which doesn't give advantages to you or to your AI opponents and I reliably win at it, despite my easygoing casual style of play.

I finally read through Sulla's walkthrough, as many people here suggested, and it was certainly enjoyable and enlightening. I tried another game last night, and grew greatly frustrated. It's the level of forward thinking, got to stop being re-active and become more pro-active. This is where "knowing" what you're doing becomes important. Even reading through Sulla's walkthru, I'd see comments like "I'm going to do this is x number of turns", "teching this will open tech y in 10 turns", etc...

I'm still going to get thru this, even if it kills someone, but it is indeed dang frustrating. I work as a software developer, and knowing various SDKs and APIs isn't nearly as frustrating as knowing all these available tech, units, abilities, number, numbers, numbers... argh, I'm being overrun by numbers...

Sorry, now that I got the outta my system, I will persist...

I finally read through Sulla's walkthrough, as many people here suggested, and it was certainly enjoyable and enlightening. I tried another game last night, and grew greatly frustrated. It's the level of forward thinking, got to stop being re-active and become more pro-active. This is where "knowing" what you're doing becomes important. Even reading through Sulla's walkthru, I'd see comments like "I'm going to do this is x number of turns", "teching this will open tech y in 10 turns", etc...

I'm still going to get thru this, even if it kills someone, but it is indeed dang frustrating. I work as a software developer, and knowing various SDKs and APIs isn't nearly as frustrating as knowing all these available tech, units, abilities, number, numbers, numbers... argh, I'm being overrun by numbers...

Sorry, now that I got the outta my system, I will persist...
You definitely should persist.

I've played Civ1 for years without even knowing how to manage happiness by turning citizens into entertainers, meaning I was stuck on Despotism for the whole game :lol:

It's only in Civ2 that I discovered Happiness management :lol:

Does it matter if I'm using the Warlords expansion as well? I'm assuming the basics of Sulla's walkthru really remains unchanged, right? There could have been different approaches taken, but the overall gameplay kinda remains the same, no?

Also, does playing through any of the scenarios help come to grips with the game any better? Are there any that walk the player through?

:eek: Does it matter if I'm using the Warlords expansion as well? I'm assuming the basics of Sulla's walkthru really remains unchanged, right? There could have been different approaches taken, but the overall gameplay kinda remains the same, no?

Also, does playing through any of the scenarios help come to grips with the game any better? Are there any that walk the player through?
Hmmm, we oughtta get after Sulla to do a Warlords walkthrough, doncha think?

The overall gameplay in Warlords is indeed mostly the same. There are, however, new elements and some subtle rule changes, especially if you've applied the 2.08 patch. There are 3 new wonders, 3 new leader traits (and some of the old leaders' traits have been changed), you now have a unique building as well as a unique unit, and of course you have the Great General. Oh, and the AI is smarter about city placement, economics, and research. :eek:

I don't think the scenarios are especially educational in the way you're looking for. I find they're like the mods--for people who get the basic game mechanics under their belt and want something different. But I don't play them very often, so I could be wrong.

Yes the tutorial stinks, After watching it I also wondered if I had wasted my money.

Play a couple games, come here and look for advice, play again, and so on. You'll be happy you bought CIV4

I'm still going to get thru this, even if it kills someone, but it is indeed dang frustrating. I work as a software developer, and knowing various SDKs and APIs isn't nearly as frustrating as knowing all these available tech, units, abilities, number, numbers, numbers... argh, I'm being overrun by numbers...
Yeah, this is typical when playing Civ4, and it doesn't really get less overwhelming with time, because the more you learn, the more possible decisions come into scope, hence even more figures to examine :-). For me, this is what Civ4 is mainly about. But trust me, you will feel a lot more comfortable after you've got the basics sorted out, which takes at least a few hours of play, however.

I was in quite the same position as you (no previous Civ experience) when I started, and the tutorial didn't help me much, either. I straight jumped into reading the articles in the War Academy, and trying all the things out. I think the first article I read was Sisiutils basic guide, which is really helpful. Of course you have to apply what you have read to your current game, that way you will remember the overwhelming amount of information so much easier. I have found that you can get to standard difficulty (Noble) rather quickly that way.

Start with an easy difficulty, pick a small Pangea map and just don't be afraid to make mistakes. If you're not sure what to do next, or what strategy to pursue, just do as you feel. Reload if it really goes wrong. Take a balanced approach, try out everything, don't neglect your military (but don't overdo it either) and stop founding more cities when your research level approaches 60%. You will improve on your own from there.

Civilization IV is not an easy game, and the learning curve is steep. If the reviews made you believe something else, it's their fault, not yours.

--Sigi