I am a new poster, though I have lurked for a long time (dating back to CIV 3.)
Just got CIV IV a couple of weeks ago. I have played two games in a row on "Noble" now, where Montezuma has been a neighbor. Both times, he declared war on me and refused to make peace, no matter what I did. Both times, I was handily defeating his incursions and eventually started taking out his border cities. Still, no capitulation on his part. This went on for more turns than I could count. Militarily, it wasn't that big a deal because I was fighting him off and winning, albeit rather slowly (this was still in the age of swords and spears). The problem is that it just got incredibly boring. Every turn the same thing-- a couple of small stacks make incursions and I have to track them down and kill them, usually taking some light losses myself. My "friend", in both games (the civ who had the highest opinion of me), steadfastly refused to help both times. Additionally, I was eventually attacked by another civ (though not because of an alliance with Montezuma), so I was having to fight off two civs. Which I did, but it blunted my advances against Montezuma. In the first game I was able to negotiate peace with the second aggressor both times they attacked, but got exasperated and didn't even try in the second. Through all of this, the three of us remained mostly mired in a no-winners war while the fourth civ on the continent lived peaceably and outran us in every category. I remember in Civ 3 that aggresor civs would eventually tire out and accept peace, even if you were only holding your own (though they accepted it quicker if you were threatening their cities), which makes sense from a realism standpoint and from the standpoint of winning the game.

Anyone had a similar experience? Is this a bug that the patch should fix? Is this just the way the AI plays now? Pretty shoddy if you ask me, and just no fun. If I play enough, I suppose I'll get good to the point that I can just crush them, but in the interim it is just plain boring, and frustrating, not to mention unrealistic. Not trying to complain too much, but I invested a lot of time into both of these games, using what had been in previous games (and has been in actual history), solid strategy: Play conservative against an attack, destroy their troops on your own soil, and then invade. But Montezuma just would... not... capitulate. I just gave up on both games because it became clear that the AI for those other civs attacking me was not trying to win, but rather just exhibiting mindless agression.

Thoughts? Advice?

I'm playing a game on monarch where I've been at war with monty for almost the entire game. The most recent war ran from 700 AD to 1450 AD. He would not accept peace. We each had vassals and each of us was trying to eliminate the others vassals. The war I fought with him was my troops in my vassals land defending what was left of Roosevelt. As the map stood, each our vassals were neighbors and monty and I were on opposing ends of the map, both of us with large (13+ cities) civilizations. I took out enough of his vassal to threaten his cities, he conquered most of my vassal. He only accepted peace after I took one of his cities and repelled two enormous stacks of troops.

I've never had a military as large as I have at this point of the game (~125 units at 1500); nor have I had as much fun in war. The death totals are staggering, on both sides. It's one of the weirder games I've played. Basically, I'd say if Monty gets on your bad side early, you're in for the long haul if you can't take him out quickly. He's a psycho. I've never had this much trouble with him, the timing of your post is very ironic for me.

Welcome to the boards.

Welcome to CFC, or at least, your first post!

First off, Montezuma is a nut. The AI leaders in Civ IV have very distinct personalities--it's one of many things I love about the game--and Monty's personality has a definite disorder, possibly several, but the long and short of it is this: most Civ IV vets will tell you that if you see you have Monty as a next-door neighbour, go kill him. ASAP. With extreme prejudice. Because this--i.e. the experience you described--is what he's like. He'll keep coming after you and will NOT give up, not unless you capture and/or raze some of his cities. Sometimes not even then.

(That's another thing to keep in mind: in Civ IV, if the AI declares war, unit losses alone are usually not enough to make it back down. Especially Monty, who builds units like there's no tomorrow. You often have to capture or raze at least one city or more to make them talk peace.)

That being said, there are ways to keep Montezuma (and other civs) off your back. Since you come from Civ III, one of the first new game elements you need to get used to is religion, which you didn't mention in your post. It has a HUGE impact on diplomacy. Basically, leaders who have the same state religion as you will like you, those with a different SR will dislike you. Some of the leaders value religion more highly than others, and are more likely to love their brothers and sisters of the faith and despise any and all heathens. Guess what Monty's like in this regard? Riiiiiight. He's a religious whack-job too; not quite as bad in that regard as Isabella, but given his aggressive tendencies to boot, bad enough.

Now, you can obviously use this to your advantage. Monty starts with Mysticism and has the Spiritual trait for cheap temples, so there's a good chance he'll found a religion. If it spreads to you and if you adopt it as your state religion (so it's the same as his), he'll almost always become "pleased" with you, at least. If you also give in to the few demands for tribute he'll make, he'll probably become your buddy and, potentially, your "pet dog"--a warlike civ you can sic on someone else. I've also had games where Monty did not found a religion and I did, which I spread to him, with the same results.

Now if you get stuck between, say, Hindu Monty and Buddhist Isabella, well, first off, my condolences. Second, in this situation it's probably best to NOT adopt a state religion until you are ready to take on one of the two neighbours. Then you get the one you're not fighting to join in; you'll get big diplomatic bonuses for a "mutual military struggle" as a result.

You can also keep other civs off your back by nursing your power rating. You can check this in the graphs screen--F9, IIRC. Your power rating is based upon the military techs you have discovered, the number of military buildings like barracks and drydocks you have, but, first and foremost, it's based upon the number and type of military units you have (the more advanced, the better). The AI respects power and will usually leave you alone if your power rating is equal to or higher than its own. Be warned that wingnuts like Monty and Isabella have nevertheless been known to come after you even when you have them outclassed. Like I said, they're nuts. But if they do come after you with stacks of Horse Archers when you have Grenadiers and Riflemen, it's relatively easy to beat the living crap out of them. Fun, too. :spank: :hammer: :ar15: :goodjob:

Welcome to the forum pojo95.

I'd say you need to do two things.

First, adopt a stronger early game strategy that gives you a technology advantage over your rivals. This is pretty easy on noble with either The Pyramids (early Representation/Specialist) or the Oracle-Civil Service slingshot. Sometimes, with a good start, you can do both.

Always take out aggressive lunatic rivals early on even if you will take some losses. Do not let nutjobs like Monty go unchecked for too long. Once you can build a strong enough offensive unit such as Axemen get ready for war. You mainly want to use the City Raider promotions so that you can start taking neighboring AI cities with your first stack of doom.

LOL! Gotta love Monty. What would civ4 be without him? We all complain that the AI sucks at war, but then there's Monty... :D

As others have said there's just no dealing with this guy. If you can make him your buddy, as has been mentioned, then great! But, if he's your nearest neighbour, I wouldn't chance it. Find a military resource asap!!! Your research order should immediately move to mining-BW-IW (horses won't cut it imo, although they're better than nothing). Hook up that resource asap (wheel) and then go to war, no matter what it takes. If you can't afford to keep his cities (they are too far away, for example), then raze them to the ground, cripple him.

Gotta love Monty, lol :D

LOL! Gotta love Monty. What would civ4 be without him? We all complain that the AI sucks at war, but then there's Monty... :D

As others have said there's just no dealing with this guy. If you can make him your buddy, as has been mentioned, then great! But, if he's your nearest neighbour, I wouldn't chance it. Find a military resource asap!!! Your research order should immediately move to mining-BW-IW (horses won't cut it imo, although they're better than nothing). Hook up that resource asap (wheel) and then go to war, no matter what it takes. If you can't afford to keep his cities (they are too far away, for example), then raze them to the ground, cripple him.

Gotta love Monty, lol :D

Heh, he definitely adds some spice to the game.

So everyone else has come up with ways to start over and deal with him. But for the current game, the best thing you can do is set up a few pillage stacks (2 or 3 units, mix one fast offensive unit like a horseman with a good def unit, and you can pillage every turn, there's more info in some other threads) and just "walk" through his turf, destroying everything that lets him produce hammers (i.e. so he can't keep building units) and commerce. From what I can tell, the AI includes its own economic status when it decides how well it's doing in a war - it seems to calculate not only how your current power relates to it, but also how fast your and its power scores are increasing or decreasing. I've found that pillaging the AI after you've taken or razed a city or two is usually the straw that breaks the camel archer's back. It seems that once the AI realizes it can't produce units within a few turns anymore, it sues for peace (or accepts it) so it can get back to cranking out units later on.

Granted, he'll probably come back again, but by then you'll hopefully be far enough ahead in tech to have a military advantage over him.

Just got CIV IV a couple of weeks ago. I have played two games in a row on "Noble" now, where Montezuma has been a neighbor. Both times, he declared war on me and refused to make peace, no matter what I did.
Thoughts? Advice?

Well theres article that has excell tables of leader personalities ( i think it was on strategy sub forum but not sure). Check it, helps alot to understand how opponents work. Monty is insane if thought how aggressive he is.

EDIT: article is: Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION IV > Civ4 - Strategy & Tips > Civ4 Strategy Articles Leader personality matrix

If i rememb right monty has army 1/1.3 it will press on if neighbour and .8/1 if you are far. Ie if you have monty close you either have to get more than 130% of his armies to keep him outta your back or nail him. Usually at least on noble you can outtech them and bribe others to attack him or bribe him to attack some other. Then he has hands on something and will leave you alone (but if you seem too weak hell come on anyway). Also if you are at war with someone he could bribe someone to attack you. Better to do that first as its permanent - to relations. Personalities are so good now, they really make the difference.

Remember that walls, military techs and units all count for military power.

-Dracandross

Thanks, all.

Yep. Isabella was the other offender in the one game. Kept coming after me, though she, unlike Monty, would at least make peace for a few turns. For her, it was that I'd "fallen under the sway of a heathen religion." Don't know what it was with Monty--the one time he went from "pleased" to attacking me with no warning.

One phrase I got tired of reading: "There will be no peace, Po." I'll probably go back to that particular game at some point, but it just got tiring--no variation, just the same thing every turn, all the while peaceable Alexander was pulling about an age ahead in Tech while the rest of us were slugging it out and pouring everything into military.

Thanks, all.

Yep. Isabella was the other offender in the one game. Kept coming after me, though she, unlike Monty, would at least make peace for a few turns. For her, it was that I'd "fallen under the sway of a heathen religion." Don't know what it was with Monty--the one time he went from "pleased" to attacking me with no warning.

One phrase I got tired of reading: "There will be no peace, Po." I'll probably go back to that particular game at some point, but it just got tiring--no variation, just the same thing every turn, all the while peaceable Alexander was pulling about an age ahead in Tech while the rest of us were slugging it out and pouring everything into military.Peaceable Alexander, LOL. He's as big a warmonger as Monty in my experience and more dangerous because he's usually more advanced than Monty.

Peaceable Alexander, LOL. He's as big a warmonger as Monty in my experience and more dangerous because he's usually more advanced than Monty.

This is true. Alex is less likely to be religious so he is involved in more AI tech trading than Monty. He also tends to be better liked by the other AIs.

welcome to the game Pojo :lol:
You're learning the personalities in the game the hard way, it seems.
But it's the best way because next time
- you will now better than to choose a different state religion than isa and monte :)
- you will build up an army before being attacked = better looking power graph

Montezuma is a strange neighbour.
The best way to get rid of the nuisance is to tech fast and trade something to him so that he attacks another painful neighbour.
In a recent game, I went for a monarch cultural victory without a single battle. Guess who protected me? right!
dear Aztec nut constantly attacked washington (or FdR?) the whole game, which prevented this fast techer to launch and prevented me to be really involved in a war.
I had to join the war twice, when monte asked me, but I never saw an enemy unit. And since I didn't lose a unit to washington (or FdR), I could sue for peace after a while.
From the mutual struggle (what a fight :lol:) and since i gave him fresh technologies, i had a friendly (=safe) montezuma as neighbour.

Raze his cities. Keep the cities near your civ, then raze as many as you can. Thats the only consistent way Ive forced peace on him. Otherwise, he'll drag it out to the bitter end.

I'm having EXACTLY this sort of experience with Monty in a game I'm currently playing. There must've been some kind of Monty personality time release code in the game that results in this happening to everyone around the same time ;).

Anyway, we got into it probably 200 years ago (it's now about 800 AD). He's sent two waves of attackers. The first wave consisted of a mighty stack of an axeman and an archer. The second was a jaguar and a catapault.

I currently have a stack of 5 conquistadors, 2 maces, and 2 pikes ravaging his lands. This after my first two small waves decimated his food supply (farms, sheep pasture, etc). He's dropped from 3rd to last place, and it's only getting worse for him. My pillage stack is currently resting up in Elizabeth's land, which borders Monty's. Once it is back to full health, it will resume its role of taking out towns in one turn. It also conveniently chips away at his army as they try in vain to shrink my pillagers without reducing their city-defense capacity.

As you can see, this war is having almost no effect on me. I am well-defended at home and am in second place, gaining on Asoka all the time. Yet every time I go for peace, Monty INSISTS that I give him Guilds. Fine with me. It's his loss.

I currently have a stack of 5 conquistadors, 2 maces, and 2 pikes ravaging his lands.

How appropriate historically :D . You are using the right troops to conquer those Aztecs, you just need a GG called Hernan Cortez to lead your troops and you can be assured of victory ;)

Hahahahaha! I didn't even pick up on that!

I'm in no position to mount a significant offensive against him. I'm doing the best I've done yet on Prince, but I'm fairly weak militarily. Asoka and Lizzy have their borders closed to Monty, so the only way he can get to me is with boats. So I'm building a huge fleet to repel any sort of naval invasion. My plan is to keep Monty busy on his turf while I mount a serious effort to beat Asoka in the space race. I think my economy is about to take off (Judaism is spread far and wide, I have the holy city, cottages are growing, HUGE empire, etc), so it should be doable.

One phrase I got tired of reading: "There will be no peace, Po."
If you're seeing that phrase, it's likely that you aren't negotiating for peace. If you ask for peace on the first screen that pops up when you click on the leader's name, you are basically suggesting a peace-for-peace deal that most leaders will reject (especially the more aggressive ones) unless you have conquered a large part of their territory.

What you probably need to do is offer something to sweeten the deal. Go into the trade negotiation screen and ask "What is the price for peace?" (It's usually the second option, I think.) If you have anything Monty wants, that will be the place where he tells you, not on the first screen. It will be something outrageous, but you have to weigh the cost of continuing the war forever.

I find that most leaders will accept a peace treaty if you have taken at least one city of theirs and offer it back to them. That may seem like a bad deal, but remeber that you have done siginificant damage to their city just by conquering it and you can always pillage the countryside to make it even less powerful. So what you do is make peace at any price and use the intervening time to setup for a more permanent victory (if you want to go to war at all).

lol I remember my first game, when I first met Monty, and I saw that huge grin he had on his face. "Hmmm he must be a nice guy" I thought.........in the words of Lex Luthor.....WRONG!!!!

To Ghostbuster:
"Nice guy"...so you failed to notice the human skull he uses as hat-decoration. Thats a dead giveaway.
In the words of Confucius: "Never trust a man (or woman) who decorates his clothing with pieces of dead humans".
(Well if C. didn't say it, I'm sure someone did)

Monty's not always crazy like that, in my latest game i've been running buddism (killed Ghandi for the holy city) all game and he has been running hinduism and he's not attacked me once being only one water tile away, I managed to convert him to buddism and he's been friendly ever since, I want to get him in a permanant alliance once I can, I have no negative modifiers to him now.

Cathy, on the otherhand, has been being a pain in this game, out of nowhere she declared war and landed about 40 knights, 20 catapults and 5 or 10 war elephants on my continent and managed to raise 3 cities before I started tossing around level 3 riflemen I was whipping. As soon as I get a nuke she's a goner.

As far as normal AI behavior goes, you can usually expect:
Tokugawa: Generally a bit behind in techs, prefers to declare wars when you are preocupied with another war, he generally is not well liked and on a continents map I noticed he tends to get put on his own island, like the past 6 games i've had with him he's been alone.
Alexander: Sometimes he'll be your best buddy, sometimes he'll be as agressive and dumb as monty.
Montezuma: He is generally an idiot, he declares war on anyone and everyone and is a religious zealotm he is really annoying and generally his wars get him far behind in techs.
Isabella: Religious zealot to the extreme, if you are her religion she loves you, if not she will declare war frequently.
Cyrus: He's an extremely aggressive settler, he will cram cities anywhere he can if a city of someones is raised. He seldom outright warmongers but this settling is just as annoying.

Those are the ones who cause problems for me.

One way to avoid having Monty as an enemy is to be him. Quite fun if you can enjoy rampaging most of the game.

This thing blew up in my face the other night. I tried to get monty to attack my enemies. He did. Unfortunately he was too good at it and conqured all of us.

Hmmn, I'd never thought about it before, but Monty also has the Civ2 theme music playing in the diplomacy screen-- another warning sign placed there on purpose?

If you're still playing Vanilla Civ4, one thing that helps is having a good stack of units near the border, and use them to mirror Monty's forces. I was able to scare a stack of his Horse Archers away once by marching an equal number of Spearmen two squares away. He still declared war about 25 turns later, but by then I was ready and waiting-- and had researched Construction and gotten Catapults by then. So a show of force has worked for me at least once; at the very least, you have all the defenders you need close at hand, eh?

One aspect of the game nobody has mentioned so far is using the whip. Did you do so in Civ3? It works pretty well in Civ4 too, and can give you enough troops in a hurry to do more than stay even with Monty or Izzy. Ten, twenty, thirty turns of unhappiness contrasted with endless war? I'll take the former every time.

As to the second part of the topic, AI war weariness, you'll have to ask those who can read the code. Myself, I just chalked it up to the AI beelining for Monarchy and Hereditary Rule, and turning cheap troops into "happy pills", as a friend of mine once called those resources and buildings. Never thought too much about it, really-- lots more other AI advantages to worry about.

Hmmm, I never thought monty could be that psychotic. I liked monty back in civIII because of his UU, the 2 movement jaguar (replaces warrior) which enables me to make really early (and successful) wars. He was dabomb back then. But now.... He's just an aggressive psychotic. =(

And Toku likes to isolate himself and be an ass to everyone. He declared war on me when I was in a big war against China

With the warmongering civs, it's just like others have said... get yourself a good stack of units who are ahead in tech or better trained, then go take one of their cities and raze a couple more.

This is what happened when I had Isabella. I actually had my scout spotting her units approaching and moved my stack of axemen I was preparing to intercept them, but the units she had were able to overtake a city of mine that had been just recently founded, then she razed it (I had two archers, she had two axemen and a chariot and sacrificed her chariot to weaken my defenders).

So I saw Toledo nearby and had the perfect plan for revenge. First, my axeman stack wiped out what was left of her units that survived, then intercepted the settler she sent to take the city site she wanted and took that out too. Then off to Toledo, which I easily took with my superstack of axemen with little losses on my side.

I also built two archers and a longbowman (discovered feudalism as I was building the second archer) and a new settler to reclaim my old city site.

I go after another city of Isabella's and she comes to me wanting peace and bribing me with 150 gold. I refuse her offer, go after her city anyway, take it easily (I had catapults now, so I used them to soften the defenses and the rest is history), and only after I razed it (it was too close to Madrid for me to justify keeping it) did I go to her and ask for peace, only asking for 180 gold as well, because I needed to take a breather from war... and yes, she did accept the peace offer.

And I've had Alexander in numerous games and have found he'll respect you if you are good to him in trade offers and you keep your military strong. Do both and he's highly unlikely to target you (at least in vanilla CIV, anyway).

Anyway, the moral of the story is this: Warmongers can be dealt with, you just have to play their game, only play it better and they'll eventually capitulate.