I was curious as to whether or not there were any plans for "flying" units (units that can pass over any terrain, with an advantage to melee units, but a disadvantage to ranged units). I think things like birds with movement points and strength (not like hawks/ravens/parrots), draconic units, and levitating units would be an interesting addition that would add another dimension to the game. Water "creatures", although not much different from boats (they could have a different promotion line, though), would be interesting, as well.

I agree with this... and i don't think it should be too hard. isn't the mechanic already in the original game, what with helicopters and all. in fact, i was under the impression that this was planned for the Griffon for 2.16.

i could see the goblins having a harpy like unit that works like a bomber LOL

I don't really like the way the helicopter/bomber functions... i dont think it would be good for this mod... the way i see flying units they should have the ability to do multiple types of actions. like with a harpy you could attack on one level of flight, bombart on another, and recon on the highest. Maybe this could be done with promotions... i had another plan for this but it is impossible since we dont know how to do mutiple deminsions.

I agree with this... and i don't think it should be too hard. isn't the mechanic already in the original game, what with helicopters and all. in fact, i was under the impression that this was planned for the Griffon for 2.16.

There is a helicopter in the origional game, but it doesn't "fly" in any game mechanic way. We can show something flying and then say it is flying by allowing it to pass over mountains and water (ie: water walking and move impassable). But that really doesn't accomplish the things I think flying should do. I think a flying unit should be able to pass through a tile with non-ranged enemy unit in it. A flying unit shouldn't be able to be attacked by a guy with a club if it doesnt want to be.

All of the weird situations that arise when you consider true flying is what has kept us from doing it so far. Its not hard to do, its just really hard to do well.

Well don't know how to make units move through occupied tiles, but you could simply give air units 100% withdrawal (like Loki) against most ground units.

I was thinking btw that an airship could be a good way to make the archery line more attractive. Rename Bowyers to Ballistics or Way of the Winds or something, and make it a prerequisite for an airship.

Well don't know how to make units move through occupied tiles, but you could simply give air units 100% withdrawal (like Loki) against most ground units.

I was thinking btw that an airship could be a good way to make the archery line more attractive. Rename Bowyers to Ballistics or Way of the Winds or something, and make it a prerequisite for an airship.

That would be really interesting!!! a whole new lighter than air tech line... i can just see White and gold Order and Black and red Veil Airships duking it out above a city... ah, the beauty of it

Let the air wars begin. ;)

http://www.thorgal.idk.com.pl/img/_artykuly/t28_01.JPG http://www.thorgal.idk.com.pl/img/_artykuly/t28_02.JPG

http://www.blougou.com/BD/thorgal/Thorgal2.jpg

Baloons? Nah.
http://www.tabletsofdestiny.com/ff7/highwind.jpg

Isn't that a bit too technologically advanced?

No kidding :lol:

Explain it away with the all powerful "magic." i

seriously, i do think this is a great idea, late game air battles.

The Veil Vs The Order

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/t/thomasberubeg/69678/fakvjtdokn.jpg

i am drawn too the magik card goblin balloon birgade LOL those remind me of airships

That should be the opening screen for FfH!

Did you guys ever play AirBuccaneers (http://ludocraft.oulu.fi/airbuccaneers/)? That's what air combat with balloons should be like.

i had origianlly proposed the idea of fireballs behaving like fighters and meteors behaving like bombers... which i thought would work for balance but i remember keal saying something about not useing the aircraft codes or some such

That should be the opening screen for FfH!

"that" being what?

@thomas.berubeg: I think he means the graphic for the Magic card goblin balloon brigade:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/79246/summer-goblin-balloon-brigade.jpg

Okay, i've never played the "magic" card game so had no idea what they were talking about

Yeah. I just realized he might have meant that crazy order v. veil picture up there too. Anyway.

Yup, I meant that awesome illustration of the Order fighting the Veil... though I'm not sure who's who.

Does it really matter who's who?

There is a helicopter in the origional game, but it doesn't "fly" in any game mechanic way. We can show something flying and then say it is flying by allowing it to pass over mountains and water (ie: water walking and move impassable). But that really doesn't accomplish the things I think flying should do. I think a flying unit should be able to pass through a tile with non-ranged enemy unit in it. A flying unit shouldn't be able to be attacked by a guy with a club if it doesnt want to be.

All of the weird situations that arise when you consider true flying is what has kept us from doing it so far. Its not hard to do, its just really hard to do well.

Could you use something similiar to the summoning mechanic Dives and for Bombing Attacks. That avoid coflict mechanic could be difficult huh?...

.HMM......Unless attacking or being approached from another air enemy perhaps a creature could appear to match the nation in question(just to the program not the player) and have to forgo that mechanic each time it wants to attack....Hence why some creatures tend to circle before attacking (like they are deciding something..ie to activate their Dive or Bombing attack button by forgetful players and Tricked/out manuevered AI's/players. Only the Diving One could be countered by melee units ....this should be possible with different animations. The Way ground units could out manuever a flying creature is to get right under it(Symbolizing a dodge to make the attacker overshoot or at least reposition for attack also this would allow for The bombing if they are underneath yet the diving could have incentives like more damage and such.....The to dive attack must set to Dive would be understandable to most and the bombing from overhead too....Just make the bombs appear as different from the same nation tag to the program even though the flags stay the same on the screen and to other air units too....There could even be a ground unit promotion perhaps for some ground units Repel Airborne and such.

Anyway I am not sure I am being clear on the idea....And Yes, I understand there are the complications you mentioned Kael...Thought I could offer something to your Idea Cocktail Bar...Even though I am sure it is already on it.

If you need this reinterated let me know....I wrote it rather quickly

There is a helicopter in the origional game, but it doesn't "fly" in any game mechanic way. We can show something flying and then say it is flying by allowing it to pass over mountains and water (ie: water walking and move impassable).

Hi guys,

Don't you already have a mechanic where certain units can't attack certain others ("Your law bringer refuses to attack so and so")? So maybe can you have various levels of flight promotion;

Flight 1: Unit can only be attacked by units with the Aerial Combat 1 promotion.
Flight 2: Unit can only be attacked by units with the Aerial Combat 2 promotion.

Aerial Combat I promotion given to some flyers and naval ships, and available to skilled archery units. AerCom II is much harder to come by.

Griffon: Flight I, AerCom I
Hippogriff: Flight I, AerCom II
Goblin Rockdropper: Flight I, Transport 1, Sentry
Darkelven Starshadow: Flight I, Invisible to most units, Transport 1, Can enter rival land

Eagle: (Upgrade to Hawk borrowed from some other thread): AerCom I, "Strafe" mechanic implemented

Order Aership: Flight II, Transport 4, Sentry, whatever..
Luichirp Skycraft: Flight II, Transport 6 (Golems only), Repair
Veil Brimstone Zeplin: Flight II, Channeling III, Sorcery, Fire III

Dimension III + Sorcery = Teleporting Bolts. Grants AerCom 2 promotion to targeted unit for 1 turn.

Air II + Sorcery = Lightning Bolt summoned with AerCom 1
Air III + Sorcery = Thunderstorm summoned with AerCom 2

I'll stop brainstorming now since you're probably about to tell me it's not possible ;)

Cheers
Smak

PS. Actually, I have an irrational dislike of hippogriffs. If any of these ideas are useful to you please apply them to a better creature :)

If a religion of Lugus' Light is implemented btw, I think airships would fit well with them.

I think the biggest issue with using promotions to simulate flight is that it still wouldn't allow flying units to pass over ground units, right?

I think the biggest issue with using promotions to simulate flight is that it still wouldn't allow flying units to pass over ground units, right?

The biggest issue is getting the AI to use them effectivly. Its fairly easy to create unit that follow different rules, its very difficult to get the AI to understand the change. But yes, gettign the flying unti to share a tile with enemy units that cant touch it is hard too.

Its fairly easy to create unit that follow different rules, its very difficult to get the AI to understand the change. But yes, gettign the flying unti to share a tile with enemy units that cant touch it is hard too.

Ah, now I see. Actually, the lack of tile sharing didn't seem like a showstopper to me; maybe I've been dealing with "Helicopter" style flight for long enough in these games that I'm conditioned to accept it :D But if "Airships" are expensive and rare, you won't want to use them to try to control terrain; they'd be hovering offshore or over peaks anyway?

But, the AI. That's too bad.

Out of curiousity, does the AI have a basic idea to build counters if it's getting killed by something specific? Like, stealth? In vanilla it always has enough anti-air, but I guess that's because it just goes ahead and builds a lot of everything.

The biggest issue is getting the AI to use them effectivly.

You could say the same thing about naval transports. Heehee ;)

Dimension III + Sorcery = Teleporting Bolts. Grants AerCom 2 promotion to targeted unit for 1 turn.


But the unit dies at the end of the turn!

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh SPLAT!

But the unit dies at the end of the turn!

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh SPLAT!

Not that it matters, as his idea doesn't work properly, but he said give AirCom 2 promotion, not Flight 2 promotion.

Plus, what about the water creatures idea? Nobody said anything about that.

I agree with the sentiment that if a flying unit wants to get from point A to point B and avoid combat, it would take a SAM-like effect to hurt/stop them, not just a hostile unit.

OT but related, shouldn't certain water-based units (sea creatures) get a "deep dive" ability that prevents them from attacking/getting attacked? Essentially they would be acting like submarines.

OT but related, shouldn't certain water-based units (sea creatures) get a "deep dive" ability that prevents them from attacking/getting attacked? Essentially they would be acting like submarines.
Its not OT in that it has the exact same problem-getting a sub and an enemy frigate to share a space.

since hidden nationality lets units act at war even when at peace, shouldn't it be possible to make units act at peace even when at war?

i.e. hidden nationality lets a unit attack a unit it is at peace with, it seems like it should be possible to make a unit not attack a unit and instead simply move into the same square.

The biggest issue is getting the AI to use them effectivly. Its fairly easy to create unit that follow different rules, its very difficult to get the AI to understand the change. But yes, gettign the flying unti to share a tile with enemy units that cant touch it is hard too.

So Can the AI recognize the difference of targets that :1.It can attack Vs. Targets it can not attack? 2. Targets that can not attack it Vs. Targets that cannot attack it? 3. Favor of Targets it can attack that cannot attack it?( Assuming this is the third and more diffitcult question)

lots of flying threads heh

since hidden nationality lets units act at war even when at peace, shouldn't it be possible to make units act at peace even when at war?

i.e. hidden nationality lets a unit attack a unit it is at peace with, it seems like it should be possible to make a unit not attack a unit and instead simply move into the same square.

though these two types would have to be seperated into two diffrent "ignore civ" rules

hidden nationality can attack and be attacked by all other civs with no regards for war or peace.

thus units that can move onto a square without attacking require a diffrent promotion, not to be mixed with hidden nationality

Considering I've just discoverd this "justified" flying unit thread - I Figured my two coppers best fly in and damage something.

I dont care if its a "gimped" type of flying - I want flying units. If My brain can imagine it, and we have some faux reason that is at least plausible for why units can/cannot attack flyers, or why they can/cannot cross water, then I'll be happy.

I do understand the need/urge to "do it well" - but for the love of all that is winged and featherd - let us find something.
-Qes

Maybe back to good old civ2?
Plain movementcosts, cant be attacked by non flying units?
(Since griffins and dragons dont run on petrolum i think we can take out the has to to end turn in a city)

Alright another stab.

Based on H. Grenadefrenzy's Idea, I'm wondering about a "base anywhere" situation for units.

Most flying units would be able to "base anywhere" litterally on the map. Then they can attack "From that spot" just like divebombing and the like does now.
The big difference is, when where they are based is attacked, and there are no other units defending the Flying unit would simply function like a land unit. That is, it has strength, does damage, its just your average combat. This of course is assuming that it has the most (or least in the case of marksman) strength in the tile.

Think of your griffin. Let us say it has a "range" of 3.

This would mean that it can REbase - to any location allowed by land units, within 6 tiles that turn. On "attack runs" it can attack anything within three tiles (and then return).

This mechanic (while sloppy) uses preexisting AI, and mechanics, that would not have to be altered drastically to produce the desired effects.

For "uber flyers" (world units, expensive airships, flying islands) I think the promotion idea works. Two would be needed. "Airborne" and "Flyer" Airborne would be "permanently in the air - and have dominion over the land below (no movement through the tile). Airborne units can only be attacked by other airborne units, and Flyers. Flyers would use the mechanic above. In this, Flyers can be attacked by ground forces (where they've landed to rest), and flyers can still attack the airborne.

While not the prettiest type of flight, it would add a third level/dimension to the combat tactics employed in FFH (I consider this a heavy plus), and much needed flavor to the world of dark fantasy (high/dark fantasy without fliers seems to be just...well, wrong).

-Qes

EDIT: On the AI - It strikes me that the AI for vanilla is at least aware that it needs an airforce. And I'm sure it has notions of where "hostile threats exist". In this, does the AI not already place its airforce units (base them) close to the areas in which it expects to be attacked or attack from? If so - it should follow that the Flyers an AI produces would/could be found along the boarders of AI nations, especially in times of hostility - considering any/all tiles are options for basing. Then, would it be difficult to incentivize the AI to attack hostile units (instead of rebasing) as often as possible? I know a conditional would eventually need to be added so that based units that are going to get killed arn't ignored - but this may be a first step

Alright another stab.

Based on H. Grenadefrenzy's Idea, I'm wondering about a "base anywhere" situation for units.

Most flying units would be able to "base anywhere" litterally on the map. Then they can attack "From that spot" just like divebombing and the like does now.
The big difference is, when where they are based is attacked, and there are no other units defending the Flying unit would simply function like a land unit. That is, it has strength, does damage, its just your average combat. This of course is assuming that it has the most (or least in the case of marksman) strength in the tile.

Think of your griffin. Let us say it has a "range" of 3.

This would mean that it can REbase - to any location allowed by land units, within 6 tiles that turn. On "attack runs" it can attack anything within three tiles (and then return).

This mechanic (while sloppy) uses preexisting AI, and mechanics, that would not have to be altered drastically to produce the desired effects.

For "uber flyers" (world units, expensive airships, flying islands) I think the promotion idea works. Two would be needed. "Airborne" and "Flyer" Airborne would be "permanently in the air - and have dominion over the land below (no movement through the tile). Airborne units can only be attacked by other airborne units, and Flyers. Flyers would use the mechanic above. In this, Flyers can be attacked by ground forces (where they've landed to rest), and flyers can still attack the airborne.

While not the prettiest type of flight, it would add a third level/dimension to the combat tactics employed in FFH (I consider this a heavy plus), and much needed flavor to the world of dark fantasy (high/dark fantasy without fliers seems to be just...well, wrong).

-Qes
so pretty much- the ai only needs to figure out good spots to rebase to(where it won't get attacked very much) and then can attack using an option similar to bombard(with 100%withdrawl of course)

so pretty much- the ai only needs to figure out good spots to rebase to(where it won't get attacked very much) and then can attack using an option similar to bombard(with 100%withdrawl of course)

Well couldnt the "bombing" functions simply be renamed? They're odds should be adjusted accordingly, since the flyers are actually swooping down and mixing it up instead of simply droping things from above.

I mean, in a perfect world, the flyers would be able to engage in actual combat instead of a "bombing" run. One would select a unit within the range, and your flyer would engage in combat with it over the defended tile. The art team would have nightmares and visions about this im sure - but still.

%s should be 100 for pillaing "strategic bombing" for flyers as well.

-Qes

EDIT: To specifically address the question - "what is 'good' spots for basing" for an AI, I think that the mere pressence of units along a boarder, and perhaps scripts that mimic land units could be brought under consideration. I mean, the best bases would be the best defenseable with the maximum range.

I think some flyers (not all) should be able to access Peaks. These would be ideal - also perhaps the peaks should give flyers +2 or +4 range (1 or 2 attacking radius). Again, this is not for ALL flyers - just those accustomed to being able to perch, or exist on uneven terrain.

The AI would most likely consider range first - get the flyers in range to attack, then its considerations should be defensive in nature - because after all, they're still just basic units like the footsoldiers.

Well couldnt the "bombing" functions simply be renamed? They're odds should be adjusted accordingly, since the flyers are actually swooping down and mixing it up instead of simply droping things from above.

I mean, in a perfect world, the flyers would be able to engage in actual combat instead of a "bombing" run. One would select a unit within the range, and your flyer would engage in combat with it over the defended tile. The art team would have nightmares and visions about this im sure - but still.

%s should be 100 for pillaing "strategic bombing" for flyers as well.
bombing functions never had attack odds before, as far as i know, and they don't have proper attack animations either.
well... theres still a bunch of problems-but it seems more feasible than my psuedo/mismash for flight

(the attack odds shouldn't be that hard to add, compared to getting the ai to understand the combat)

bombing functions never had attack odds before, as far as i know, and they don't have proper attack animations either.
well... theres still a bunch of problems-but it seems more feasible than my psuedo/mismash for flight

If there is a way (which it strikes me there isnt, or this would have been thought of already) to turn bombing into combat and odds, then it works.

Because this has not been brought up (to my knowledge) it strikes me that its not possible. SO, baring that, I think that perhaps I could live with flyers having "hit and run" tactics instead of full combat.
-Qes

If there is a way (which it strikes me there isnt, or this would have been thought of already) to turn bombing into combat and odds, then it works.

Because this has not been brought up (to my knowledge) it strikes me that its not possible. SO, baring that, I think that perhaps I could live with flyers having "hit and run" tactics instead of full combat.
-Qes
its certainly possible,its just that no one has done it before cuz you need the whole "anchalada" to make it worthwhile, and by that i mean you need to add a whole ai and graphical change along with the fundamental mechanic you've added

its certainly possible,its just that no one has done it before cuz you need the whole "anchalada" to make it worthwhile, and by that i mean you need to add a whole ai and graphical change along with the fundamental mechanic you've added

Well, is that entirely necessary?

There is already code (i hope) in which the AI will bomb the bejesus out of things it identifys in vanilla civ. It already rebases airplanes.

By the same token, the AI should be able to think of moving the units to their proper destinations, and "bombing the bejesus" out of them as per normal.

Its just that the unwary AI will be attacking instead of bombing, and as long as a few adjustments are made, the AI wouldn't be able to tell the difference, the consequence being that it looks like real combat, when its really just air superiority to the AI.
-Qes

Well, is that entirely necessary?

There is already code (i hope) in which the AI will bomb the bejesus out of things it identifys in vanilla civ. It already rebases airplanes.

bombing isn't the same as attacking(the flying unit is nearly guarenteed to be damaged)
airplanes are always based on to a city or an aircraft carrier in vanilla
(the ai doesn't have the logic to rebase to a tile without either of these)
unless you want the ai to be restricted defensively in large land wars.


By the same token, the AI should be able to think of moving the units to their proper destinations, and "bombing the bejesus" out of them as per normal.

this should work just fine...(the ai will be able to kill units though, so whatever triggers death animations will need to be fixed)

Its just that the unwary AI will be attacking instead of bombing, and as long as a few adjustments are made, the AI wouldn't be able to tell the difference, the consequence being that it looks like real combat, when its really just air superiority to the AI.
-Qes
hopefully!

bombing isn't the same as attacking(the flying unit is nearly guarenteed to be damaged)
airplanes are always based on to a city or an aircraft carrier in vanilla
(the ai doesn't have the logic to rebase to a tile without either of these)
unless you want the ai to be restricted defensively in large land wars.

Does it think in cities and aircraft carriers? Or does it see valid and invalid tiles?

If its valid and invalid tiles, then it'll move the best distance in the direction It wants the airforce to head, would it not? If it thinks in cities and carriers - this is obviously a problem.


this should work just fine...(the ai will be able to kill units though, so whatever triggers death animations will need to be fixed)

Well yeah, But art is secondary to me at the moment, I'd be ok (for now) with bomb sounds and animations as long as the principle works first.

-Qes

rebase could require some improvement, like an Aerie for griffons, a cave for wyvern riders, etc.. the AI could probably understand that much, maybe. The vanilla interception mission could even be used - just renamed to something like Patrol.

Flying units are one of the things I wanted to try and mod in, using converted/resized NWN models.. no time to actually do it though :(

And yea, Beef, AirBuccaneers rocked!

rebase could require some improvement, like an Aerie for griffons, a cave for wyvern riders, etc.. the AI could probably understand that much, maybe. The vanilla interception mission could even be used - just renamed to something like Patrol.

Flying units are one of the things I wanted to try and mod in, using converted/resized NWN models.. no time to actually do it though :(

And yea, Beef, AirBuccaneers rocked!

I want to avoid "building requirements" for rebasing - perhaps for construction, but not rebasing.

Idealy, to produce the results we've been talking about, the "every space is a base" option is the best - at least for flyers. I'm thinking that Airborne units, should only recognize cities as "bases" there by preventing them from making it "unattackable" to ground units, AND making them more vulnerable to attack - the city clearly has a way to "get to the unit in the sky" and therefor, any invading armies would also have that access.

This wouldn't be too tricky. Technically the "airborne" would be a ground unit with water walking, and would be "unattackable" which represents its lofty heights. - but then how to make it soft in cities? Give it massive city negaters. Then if its attacked by shadows/assassins in a city (making those who spent the time building them cry) its an act of sabotague(sp?) more than actual combat.

That was all thinking..er.. out loud.

All tiles = bases.
Flyers use vanilla AI (with minor modification) for use. (Rebase & Attack)
Airborne = Ground Waterwalking units (mechanically) and can only be attacked by flyers or other Airborne. - Can pass all terrain.

Is this possible? Mehopes?
-Qes

I mentioned the tile improvements in the case that the AI is focused on points such as carriers and cities, it might be possible to make it understand that these improvements are carriers.. while it might not be possible to make it understand that every tile is.

Who knows though, maybe it would work.

I mentioned the tile improvements in the case that the AI is focused on points such as carriers and cities, it might be possible to make it understand that these improvements are carriers.. while it might not be possible to make it understand that every tile is.

Who knows though, maybe it would work.

But how do we get the AI to understand that?

They could be improvements that the AI valued just above irregation expansion outside of city radii. Workers always look to expand irregation when there isnt anything else to improve - if it could be worked in that they built "airbases" instead, that might function very well. The only consequence is that then flyers would never be based within a cities radius, with the exception of the city tile itself - which makes for a great deal of tactical sense anyway.

Could the AI be tought to value the "airbase" improvements as much as expanding irregation? And if they were plausible for all features and terrains, then we may have a "perimeter" system worked out naturally. Especially if, as you said, the improvements can be the same to the AI as carriers.

One glaring weakness - how would or could flyers rebase to islands off the coast, wild places that have never been cultivated? Do we want to restrict flyers to "improved lands and cities?" That seems to break down the flavor a bit.

Still, something will be better than nothing.
-Qes

Semi-random on-topic thoughts:

What actual roadblocks are there with the Civ4 non-modable code that can't be overcome with the custom code? I coudln't find

Has adding a "flying" promotion been determined as insufficient to handle the support code? I don't know the code, but with all the other magic you have been able to do, I figure adding checks for flying creatures would be fairly straight forward.

IMO, a flying created can be prompted whether it wants to attack a stack that it encounters, unless both have flying (similar to prompt when you try to attack someone you aren't at war with).

I could also see a spell that summons a "windstorm" that essentially acts as a guardsman/defender vs archer/flyer units, and

Semi-random on-topic thoughts:

What actual roadblocks are there with the Civ4 non-modable code that can't be overcome with the custom code? I coudln't find

Has adding a "flying" promotion been determined as insufficient to handle the support code? I don't know the code, but with all the other magic you have been able to do, I figure adding checks for flying creatures would be fairly straight forward.

IMO, a flying created can be prompted whether it wants to attack a stack that it encounters, unless both have flying (similar to prompt when you try to attack someone you aren't at war with).

I could also see a spell that summons a "windstorm" that essentially acts as a guardsman/defender vs archer/flyer units, and


If the forum gnomes stole the rest of your post, I recomend geting "Gnomeaway" its essential for forum community postings.

Also, while the "flight" mechanic seems fairly straight forward - kael has said (i believe) that its much trickier than it first appears, and has pushed it back continually because they couldnt figure out how to do it "right".

I've been one of the major voices advocating for "bad" as being acceptable in opposition to "none". But he's got a signifcant point if flying units actually detracts from the game, simply because their mechanics are too inconsistant or frustrating.

I feel like were making theoretical progress, but until someone actually takes one of the many ideas weve been tossing around and starts to troubleshoot and problem solve, we're never going to get anywhere.

I'm a lover not a programer. So I'm not of any use in this. I can however use what logics I have to try to HELP the programers envision their goals.

Wait... Does that make me a FFH cheerleader? Maybe now I can become president.
-Qes