Hey all,

Still learning the Vanilla game here; I've recently become hooked on mines :blush: . Between the fact that they produce a lot of hammers and there's a chance of discovering something in the tile later on all I build is cottages and mines (and a farm when needed).

Am I missing something with the windmills / watermills / workshops here?

'Cake

Key to breaking the habit : realizing that the most important resource is food.

A big part of the solution is realizing how powerful the whip is, and how 1 food can easily be turned into 2 hammers or more. See the article about the whip for more detail.

Am I missing something with the windmills / watermills / workshops here?


Well, yes.

And so did I. I almost never build those improvements, until I came across this article in the war academy:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/eval_production.php

Well, yes.

And so did I. I almost never build those improvements, until I came across this article in the war academy:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/eval_production.php

good article but I dont see the point he wants to make. Plus if you ask me, the game is already decided when you get biology. and whats the big difference between a basic 59 hammers or 62 ? Its not only about production because I would never place a city by the sea then. I usually place only my second and third city wherever I want...all the others will depend on the position of other civs.

for the original Poster I think in the early game, any improvments are better than none...since windmills only come later I would build mines from the start.
If you see a city not having a 20 population replace a mine by a windmill. It also depends on which civics you run. some gives bonus to certain improvements

Windmills, watermills, and workshops are definite improvements you want to build, especially watermills. However, they only really become effective later in the game (e.g., workshops post-State property). So, early on, yes you want to maximize food (without avoiding cottages--assuming default cottage economy). This means building cities in locations that have multiple (2+) surplus food tiles (seafood, grains, herdables, etc.).

Hammers are very important, especially very early on, so I think you are on the mark there. However, later in the game watermills become superior hammer-producing tiles and windmills become nice on hills with workshops putting out nice amounts of hammers as well. You should try and specialize your cities with watermills, mines, workshops, farms, and surplus food tiles in your production cities; mature cottages, windmills, etc. in your commerce cities.

good article but I dont see the point he wants to make. Plus if you ask me, the game is already decided when you get biology. and whats the big difference between a basic 59 hammers or 62 ? Its not only about production because I would never place a city by the sea then. I usually place only my second and third city wherever I want...all the others will depend on the position of other civs.

for the original Poster I think in the early game, any improvments are better than none...since windmills only come later I would build mines from the start.
If you see a city not having a 20 population replace a mine by a windmill. It also depends on which civics you run. some gives bonus to certain improvements

I agree, workshops/watermills become effective quite late, but not everyone aims for the early conquest/dominion victories. A few workshop powered cities can be quite nice in a modern age war.

Im not saying you should always get that kind of city in your game, just posted it to explain how they(workshops, etc.) can be used, as the original poster didnt seem to know what to do with them.

As a side note, I dont think that city is exlusive to inland sites, sure you cant get 63(or whatever) production on coast, but its still nice to have a good production city without any hills with access to sea.

And you dont need biology as long as you pick city-cites that have 40 food in the big fat cross.

well we're not even talking of towns under democracy here...I think I maybe built 4 workshop since I have civ 4...and i change windmills vs mine/watermills in the modern era to stabillize the population of the cities to 20...

Workshops are great.

I use them on plains tiles in my production cities (farming grasslands for mines, etc.).

They really come into their own post-state property but are still respectable post-guilds (iirc).

Watermills can be really great.

i say its not only about production...what does it gives to produce knight in 4 turns if I can produce a tank in 10...Well I play against the AI and tech is what always saved me...

I'm certainly not suggesting to avoid research. But even with uber research, you still need some production cities, do you not? If you say yes (which you should imo) then you can/should definitely consider workshops because they make nice improvements for your plains tiles in those cities (imo).

While I've come to like workshops and watermills for production, they aren't early game production. Mines are.

Mine is very simple: hills have F1P1 (grassland) / P2 (plains), mine adds two hammers. Railroad adds one more, but that's by no means early tech. Mining is tier 1 tech, with BW (for chopping forests) and IW (for removing jungle) coming soon as well. That means that post-railroad mine is FP=5 (early game mine FP=4), which is the highest FP you can get from non-resource tile in any case. Same value can be gained from other improvements, but they're late - for me often later than railroad (I tend to priorize that somewhat).

Watermill comes at Machinery. Situational, as it depends on river layout. Adds exactly one hammer.. Of course when the techs come rolling, you get second hammer from Rep Parts (FP=4 then) and one food from running State Property (tech Communism) for total FP=5. Added bonus is commerce, but that's not a big deal when talking about production city.

Workshop comes with Metal Casting. Quite useless: trade one food for one hammer - I don't think FP=2 tiles are really worth working unless for commerce you might get from the tile. At Guilds, get another hammer. At Chemistry, another hammer again. And running State Property, one food (replaces the lost food). A plains workshop is F=1 P=4 with State Property, exactly the same as post-railroad grassland hill mine.

So, how do I want my hammers? From the hills, please :) They are available early on, and nothing will beat them. However, the choice isn't always there. Sometimes you just need to squeeze hammers out of flatland tiles. In those cases, watermills and workshops are fine. However, those hammers mature late in the game, so it's best if the production city has some high food tiles (a food bonus or two, or maybe floodplains) coupled with a few hills (for early game hammers). When it reaches a size at which it needs to squeeze hammers from the flatlands, having excess food is necessary for workshops, or having rivers for watermills.

One improvement many seem to overlook is lumbermill. Lumbermill has the same FP as the rest, maturing to final FP at railroads (like mines do), not dependant on civics. I try to keep forests around for health anyway (unless I have health-excessive start), and again it's rare to have enough happiness for the city to reach high size early on, so Rep Parts aren't THAT far.

Bonus feature on the mines is of course the chance of popping a resource. Popping happymetals lowers the production, but rare is the day when I scorn at gold.. And popping extra iron or any other strategic good adds to the production.

Of course resources change things. Plains elephant workshop is high hammers, and plains horse is high hammers in the early game as well. Still, plains hill iron mines are my favourites for production. Iron (instead of eg. copper) mainly because it's needed throughout the game where copper becomes a wonder booster at some point (no mid to late game unit needs copper, many need iron). And plains hill resource mine is simply most hammers any tile can yield.

One improvement many seem to overlook is lumbermill. Lumbermill has the same FP as the rest, maturing to final FP at railroads (like mines do), not dependant on civics. I try to keep forests around for health anyway (unless I have health-excessive start), and again it's rare to have enough happiness for the city to reach high size early on, so Rep Parts aren't THAT far.


Yeah, Ive started keeping a couple around as well for health reasons. They also make a nice hammer boost if you need to chop them for something in the late game...u.n., space race.

so whats the conclusion?

im confused..
what should i use in what situation?

i say its not only about production...what does it gives to produce knight in 4 turns if I can produce a tank in 10...Well I play against the AI and tech is what always saved me...

I'm certainly not suggesting to avoid research. But even with uber research, you still need some production cities, do you not? If you say yes (which you should imo) then you can/should definitely consider workshops because they make nice improvements for your plains tiles in those cities (imo).

I agree with futurehermit. Even if you go for peaceful victory like cultural, you need at least one good production city to keep your power rating high enough so the AI wont attack you. Of course in this case you can propably make the city with just hills, but if you want/need to go to war, workshops are great post-state property.

Plus, we are not aiming for knights in 4 turns, but battleships in 2.


so whats the conclusion?

im confused..
what should i use in what situation?

The conclusion is that every improvement has its place in the game, you just need to learn which will penefint your plans and work best with the terrain you have.

Hills are good and last for the whole game, no doubt about that, and you can easily play the game without workshops.

Post-state property workshops are like mines on flatlands, so you can have a great production city without any hills.

Watermills are also good and even better post-state property as then they work like early farms.

so whats the conclusion?

im confused..
what should i use in what situation?

Cottage spam never hurts. Build enough farms to hit pop 20, then build enough windmills to hit pop 20, then build cottages on every other tile, even grassy hills. Then, if you have anything left over, put a mine on it. If you can't put a mine on it, put a watermill on it.

Some people prefer to specialize their cities, but that's not necessary. Simply switch to Universal Sufferage, Free Speech, Free Religion, Emancipation and Free Market. You'll probably hit #1 in production, GNP, and trade. This route lends itself to either Space Race or Cultural. You can also do Diplomatic, since you'll be the first to Mass Media, and thus easily build the U.N. You can still get Conquest or Domination, of course. Without ever building a single workshop in your entire empire, you should still be able to pump out tanks, gunships, and marines in just 1-3 turns each, from any city in your empire.

If you want to specialize your cities, you might choose to put windmills and cottages around your commerce cities, then build craploads of workshops and watermills around all the others. This only really works in State Property. Universal Sufferage and Free Speech become much less attractive, so maybe you want to stick with Hereditary Rule or Police State. Most people go with Slavery, Bureauracry and Theocracy, under this model. It's great for warmongers who win through domination or conquest. There isn't much call for anyone to have this much production, unless they're using Epic or Marathon speed. These speeds make the game much, much easier to win, effectively reducing the difficulty level by one (epic) or two (marathon).

Maybe you want a specialist economy. In that case, you pretty much want to farm everything and make as many scientists as possible. Obviously, this only works under Representation, and most people build the Pyramids in order to get access to Representation early. Or you could declare war on whoever built it, as their defenses will probably be a bit poor. Mercantilism, Caste System, Bureauracy and Pacifism are quite popular under this model.

Enlightened leaders often prefer to eschew the "distasteful" civics, such as Slavery or Police State. They will often choose Representation, Bureaucracy, Emancipation, Environmentalism, and Free Religion. Their cities will sport large amounts of lumbermills (for health and happiness), ample farms (for specialists), and a good amount of mines (for production).

Your choice of civics affects which improvements you build, and vice versa. If you want to run Slavery, make sure you have enough food to continually grow back those people you whip. If you want to run Universal Sufferage, then don't whip away your population. You need those cottages worked.

Your traits also affect which improvements you build. If you're financial, you probably want to make sure you're building windmills on coastal hills. Watermills might also be somewhat useful, too, even if you're not under State Property. Workshops might not be as attractive, seeing as how you could be building cottages on those tiles. Also, you end up building more coastal cities, seeing as how you get three commerce from coastal tiles.

Sometimes, I let a city languish at size 7, if it's just a resource grab. There's no reason to grow that city to size 15, if I'm only going to be working tundra, ocean, or non-fresh farms. This is also often a problem if the city is surrounded by desert, ice, or peaks.

Obviously, if you're playing marathon, deity games, your strategy will be different than if you're playing quick, noble games. I find marathon to be a crutch, so I usually stick to normal or epic. I usually stick to the middle difficulty levels, such as Prince or Monarch. Monarch is a real pain with the Better AI, though!

Of course mines are good production and come earlier. I'm not disputing that at all.

What I am saying is that if, in your production cities, you have non-river plains tiles (as many good production cities do), those are tiles you should target for workshops. Plain and simple. River plains should get watermills. Hills = mines. Grasslands = farms.

So, the question becomes, what sites do you seek out for production cities?

The ones that will give you the most total production of course :)

...
Duh! It's so obvious!

Well you asked a question with an obvious answer :)

One improvement many seem to overlook is lumbermill. Lumbermill has the same FP as the rest, maturing to final FP at railroads (like mines do), not dependant on civics. I try to keep forests around for health anyway (unless I have health-excessive start), and again it's rare to have enough happiness for the city to reach high size early on, so Rep Parts aren't THAT far.


Agreed! Lumbermills also tend to came around about the time i'm finally able to build cities on tundra/astronomy islands and have/will soon have biology on hand. Imho, they're excellent choices for production on those places.

As in general, all grassland and plains tiles (flat and hills equally) are post-bio running state property FP=5, and the city tile itself has F2P1 for FP=3, any city that has only grassland and plains tiles and no resources at all can reach FP=103, although you need F=40 so you end up with P=63. Getting F=40 depends simply on being able to chain irrigate into the fat cross for irrigated post-bio farms (except for 20 flat grass tiles where 20 workshops do the job).

So, almost any city can be made a production city late in the game.

However, we need production way earlier than that. Having simply 20 grassland tiles doesn't make a production city early on. It'll make superb cottage cheese though, which is why you almost never see those 20 workshop cities in the endgame either - scrapping 20 full grown towns for workshops is just too painful to think about :)

When I think about cities early in the game, I first consider their food potential "now" and "post Civili Service (chain irrigation). See what's the maximum food surplus for the city with only the resources improved. That's the amount of food I can use for whatever the city is going to be.. If the food surplus is very large, I consider GP farm. If the food surplus is high and the city has lots of hills, I consider early production (plains hills are great for hammers but you need that food surplus for them). If it has minor food surplus and lots of cottable tiles (flatlands and grassland hills), I start counting how many cots I can run there, how many farms do I need extra, and if it might become a good commerce city.

Oh yes, I mostly run CE, as SE requires more micromanagement. I hate that :) One reason I have hard time moving to Monarch, I can be lazy and weedy and still get off the hook on Prince, but on Monarch I just can't do that, have to actually concentrate on the game :crazyeye:

So, a city that has some hills and some food surplus. If I can get the city to maybe size 8-10 pre-CS with 15+ base hammers, it's probably production city. Then I consider the long term: can it grow to 12-14 pre-bio pre-sp while consistently getting more hammers out of every citizen? If not, have to think about it still - maybe it's not good midgame production city, only early game and late game one? But if yes, then it'll make a midgame production city as well, and as noted, anything can be made production in the late game.

And as said, resources definitelly affect this. A city with pigs, corn, and copper, with half a dozen hills? Definitelly production.

Looks like we have come to a consensus about workshop and watermills...

lumbermills weren't really talked about in this thread...and windmills...?

Windmills are for when you don't have the food. As they provide +1 food, that makes grassland hill F2 (self sufficient), and you only need one farm per plains hill windmill (early/mid game) or one per two (post-bio).

I don't usually use windmills (I don't much like improvements that are all over the FPC map - I want either hammers or commerce per city as I do specialize them) except in the above mentioned case of low food cities. This does allow me to settle those regions of hills though while knowing the cities can still grow to respectable sizes, and yes - working a dozen windmills is definitelly better than not working the tiles at all. Sometimes you want to run specialists instead, but it's always worth a thought.

Windmills add commerce as well as food to hills and can be a nice improvement for commerce cities at times (although cottages on grasslands hills are also good, depending on how much food is available).

Lumbermills are GREAT for forested-tundra. Can't think of a better upgrade there at all. For that reason I'll rarely, if ever, chop these forests.