Ok,

So everyone knows my preoccupation with the pyramids.

But, the thing is: as soon as you go emperor+ pyramids becomes next to impossible and usually suicidal (getting overrun by barbs, etc.).

But if I told you it would be possible to get:

1) The Great Wall

2) The Pyramids

3) 3 total cities

4) By 1200 BC

5) On emperor skill level

6) WITHOUT STONE

Would you believe me???

BELIEVE IT :D (Check out the attached save)

Ok, so I'm going to post the strategy here and you can experiment with it, refine it, etc.

It does require 3 things:

1) Must play as Gandhi (may be possible with other phil leaders, i'm not sure)

2) Must have a handful of forests in capital with ok production capability (doesn't have to be great!)

3) Must get a bit lucky

Ok, so here's the strategy :D

1) Start by researching polyth to found hinduism (build a warrior). In my three attempts at this, I founded it every time, so it is possible on emperor. Of course it is possible to get beat to it, so this is where some luck is required (more on this below).

2) Then research bronze (build a worker--improve mines if possible; prechop forests).

3) Then research masonry (build a warrior, hopefully grow to size three).

4) Then research priesthood (start on great wall growing to size 4)

5) Chop great wall. Once it is chopped you no longer fear a barb invasion!!! (start building temple, CHOP IT IF AT ALL POSSIBLE).

6) Ok, this is where the magic happens. Once temple comes in, START WORKING A PRIEST. The extra gp pts will help you pop a great person prior to 1000BC thus allowing you to nab the pyramids!!! Without these extra gp pts your gp will come far too late to have any hope for pyramids at this skill level. Of course it requires a bit of luck since you're polluting the gp pool. I don't know the technical details of how the process works, but I can tell you that the odds start off at around 80% GE, 20% GP once you start working the priest and ends up around 60% GE, 40% GP when you pop the GP. The three times I tried this strat I got a GE every time :D

7) Now, you'll notice you still only have 1 city though. The nice thing is now you don't have to worry about barbs attacking new cities you're going to try and get up and running :D Your capital is at size 4 so use a combination of chops (if you have any forests left) and one 2-pop pop-rush to get two settlers out asap. I managed 1200BC in the save game I posted. The dates will of course be a bit variable, depending on # of forests + production capabilities of capital, but it is certainly possible!

With 3 cities, pyramids, and the great wall prior to 1000BC I would argue you are in excellent position to compete with the AI on emperor. You can use police state to crank your initial army of axes/chariots/swords (after hopefully trading for IW once you beeline to alphabet) and of course representation to run your powerful SE once you get your libraries up and running and your initial army pumped out.

The most, most exciting part about this strategy is that gandhi is the ultra powerful spiritual-philosophical. Philosophical of course is to the SE what financial is to the CE. Spiritual is amazing because it allows you to go between police state-representation, slavery-caste system, and OR-pacificism without any anarchy :D :D :D

And you'll notice that starting off with polytheism is not all bad since it is a prerequisite for literature (use your 2nd GE--don't work a priest anymore you want a GE next for sure--on the GL) and also for CoL (which you'll want to get asap for caste system and to unlock a philosophy lightbulb with your first GS!).

Ok, but what about if you don't found hinduism? I haven't tried this yet, but you can try for judaism. You're researching masonry and polyth anyways, so go for monoth. It would just be a matter if 1) you manage to found judaism; 2) you can get priesthood and your temple up and running in time. You could try experimenting with priesthood first (so you can go temple right away after founding judaism) and monoth first (so you can try and ensure monoth). Monoth opens up organized religion, so that isn't all bad either. Nice early production bonus for your barracks, libraries, etc.

And, what if you get a great prophet instead of a GE? Well, that sucks :( But hey, you can use him on the hinduism shrine and you can use that extra $$$ to help you in the rebuilding effort (so not all is lost!). The shrine also allows you to work extra priests so go for another early priest and go for an early theology lightbulb!

Good luck and let me know how it goes :D :D :D

I tried something similar in my games. Interesting strategy. But it doesn't work on immortal. And it is very expensive on Emperor as well. If you know you'r allone on island, you may try this, otherwise, all those shields and time are to be invested in early expension in my opinion.
Lots of things can go wrong, you said it yourself: not founding religion, not having bronze, horses in your capital, having aggresive civ near you, not getting GE from great people pool, etc,etc
But if danger is your middle name...

Danger is my middle name :D

I don't play on immortal, so that is ok. I understand that in the upper-upper skill levels you have to focus on certain openings only.

It's just that I previously had always included emperor in that equation. But now I believe that, at least with Gandhi, it is possible to ensure (with a bit of luck) getting pyramids without stone--which is what I was trying to achieve. Whether or not it puts you in too deep a hole to recover from remains to be seen. However, I think you should be ok. You don't have to fear barbs so as long as you don't have Monty next door it's just a matter of securing copper/horses/iron then using police state to crank out an army to recover with--not to mention recovering technologically using representation once libraries are up and running!

EDIT: Also, you don't need copper or horses in your capital imo. This is because you DO NOT HAVE TO FEAR BARBS :D All you need is a military resource claimable in your 2nd city spot so that you can start cranking units if you have an aggressive civ nearby. If you have peaceful neighbours all you need is a military resource in your 3rd city spot so that you have something to attack them with once you're ready to use police state to start cranking an army out.

*******

Ok, so I tried another game.

Guess what I got? 3 forests and no mines. So you say, now this for sure will not work?

Well, with some luck it is still possible (not by 1000BC though).

I managed 3 cities and pyramids by 500BC (still respectable considering the super low-hammer start).

I have attached the save (note that the horses in the capital came too late to be any use to the strategy ;) )

P.S., I hope people will try and play these games and see if they can get wins and report back on how things went for them :D I will try and post a judaism opening tomorrow (if I can pull it off)

I thought Ghandi was industrius, not philosophical?

He is philosophical in Warlords.

This would not work with Raging Barbarians on Monarch, I can tell you that much.. I've timed trying to choprush the Great Wall and without stone it is almost certain that two or more barb warriors/archers will get at you before that wall is chopped, so youll need defenders... If the barbs slow your wall chopping down by even 10 turns you are probably going down since they will then literally swarm you..

Does anyone know the date at which barbs start crossing your borders? I've noticed that barb warriors/archers will generally avoid crossing your borders at first (though I think they will if there is a target of opportunity such as a worker next to them). Is there a script or something that tells them to start attacking at a certain date or is it just my dumb luck that they wander off in some other direction?

On higher level any strategy could be used. Trick is to choise exec one for each given situation.

This probably could work on Deity, if you have stone in fat cross. And you do not need religion, any GP hiring building will do.
Library, for example.
You would need to put out fogbusters on start and be a bit lucky in food department, but the only conditions would be:
1) stone in fat cross.
2) philosofical
3) AI not next door.

Tech you would need would be masonry/bronse working.

This would not work with Raging Barbarians on Monarch, I can tell you that much.. I've timed trying to choprush the Great Wall and without stone it is almost certain that two or more barb warriors/archers will get at you before that wall is chopped, so youll need defenders... If the barbs slow your wall chopping down by even 10 turns you are probably going down since they will then literally swarm you..

Does anyone know the date at which barbs start crossing your borders? I've noticed that barb warriors/archers will generally avoid crossing your borders at first (though I think they will if there is a target of opportunity such as a worker next to them). Is there a script or something that tells them to start attacking at a certain date or is it just my dumb luck that they wander off in some other direction?

Well, I don't care to play with raging barbarians since that's not a default setting anyways. I don't care so much about getting this strat to work in any situation, but moreso just to get it to work on emperor with normal settings.

@ mutineer, while that's true, I'm trying to develop a strat to ensure pyramids WITHOUT stone :)

Ok, here is a Judaism Variant save. 3 cities + pyramids 875BC. Founded Judaism before researching priesthood and temple (even though I also founded hinduism--I was just going for JV no matter what). It could be faster given the right start.

In this save Kublai is right on our doorstep, and Shaka is on our continent as well, so it should be interesting :D

I think the JV might be the way to go anyways.

Having OR means your buildings will be built faster during the recovery period.

Having Police State means your military will be build faster during the recovery period.

Chop/pop-rush workers/settlers/workboats.

I also think this opening really maximizes the synergy of Gandhi's starting traits, techs, and uu:

Traits:

Spiritual--Making use of cheaper temple early and opening multiple early civics (Rep, PS, OR, Slavery); switching between Rep-PS, OR-Pac, and Slavery-CasteS quite early in the game really capitalizes on no anarchy.

Philosophical--Running powerful SE with pyramids

Mysticism--Founding early religion

Mining--Bronze of course

IMHO getting judaism with gandhi has no luck part.
It's the only one starting with mysticism and mining AFAIK = bonus to reasearch masonry = easy to get judaism.
I have the feeling this is true at any level and any circumstance (except totally screwed starting position)

It's the only one starting with mysticism and mining AFAIK

Wang Kon also does, and he's Financial. I don't think he prioritizes religious techs much, though.

Yeah, I think Judaism is doable every time so as long as you don't get a totally screwed production start, it should be doable most games :D :D :D

Woot! "Guaranteed" pyramids with no stone on emperor! My dream has come true :D

Spiritual is amazing because it allows you to go between police state-representation, slavery-caste system, and OR-pacificism without any anarchy

Amen brother. Wish more people would realize. Right after I play a game with a spiritual civ then play a game with a non-spiritual I think "Damn I wish I was spiritual"

^^^very true

*******

Ok, I've played around with this a bit more. Here's what I've found:

-Like Acidsatyr said, if you have an aggressor as a neighbour and they declare war on you, you're screwed :lol:

-If you CANNOT get your other two cities out by 1000BC you risk getting totally boxed in + even if you get them out (but especially if you don't), if you don't get a military resource (copper/horses/iron) you're also screwed.

If you start to get boxed in though, but you DO have a military resource (especially a metal), then I think you're actually in good shape because you should be able to take those cities and start expanding your empire :D

So, it certainly is a gamble, no doubt about it and it probably won't work every time (like any strat imo), but it's nice to know it's possible and I think if you can pull it off, it could be pretty powerful :D

I hope people report on some of the games I posted, that would make for some good discussion :D

Well done!. I also came up with the idea of using a temple and a priest but that was after i lost faith in the whole project so i have never tried it.

It's still a gambit though, summing up:

- failing to found a religion, this chance is very small, i only once missed hinduism out of 10 games or so (i usually go for an early religion if i see no happiness resources nearby), judaism will do in that case.

- Failing to build the Great Wall in time, happened to me sometimes with poor
starting locations, it's immediately game over when that happens you get slaughtered.

- Building GW but having a neighbour declare war (Acidsatyr). This has also happened to me with Ragnar (1000 BC or so) who was quite far away and i even had a few axes. I wonder if Ai's declare war faster when you have 2 wonders (don't think so really), or is Ragnar just extremely aggressive,i know we had an argument over religion.

- Getting boxed in but that can always be a problem, 3 cities at 1200 bc as in your first sample is expansion enough.

- The biggest problem i saw and the reason i didn't try is the mixing of Gp points. I think that you were really lucky to get the GE 3 times. On the other hand getting the prophet at this time and an early shrine is not bad either so you can still be well placed in this case. you have a reasonable chance at a GE later which will be good for GL or Angor wat.

I think it's a very good gambit with a good starting loc. Can you post your 4000 bc saves, see what they looked like?

futurehermit,

awesome strat.. going to have to give it a shot. have you tried it as egypt yet?? the obelisk is cheaper than a temple and lets you run 2 priests right away.. even w/o religion if I remember correctly. would make up for the fact that ramsses is ind rather than phi. industrius would help more I think because you could get the wall and an obelisk before you would without ind. and the 2 priests would be equivelant gpp from phi. but more hammers :D

give it a shot let me know what you think?

NaZ

i tried an emperor game with this gambit.
starting location was cool (loads of forests, wheat on a river, sheep, deers in a forest), and I had no problem getting the GW without stone, and no problem getting hinduism.
problem was I got a GP! To avoid having a second source of prophets, I settled him and I built the oracle while waiting for my second Great Person, since I had marble somewhat far from the capital but close enough to have it at this time...
took Metal Casting, rushed a forge, hired an engineer, and had better luck with the second great person , welcome the pyramids.
I also got the Great Library, and had a nice tech lead.
Only problem was I had only 2 cities... Nice productive ones, but still only 2.
So I attacked Stalin, took his nearest city and waited for healing.
My, what a stack he sent towards me!
He couldn't take back his city, but went for another one.
Back to 2 cities for 200 years...

Not a winning game, but the gambit went well :mischief:

futurehermit,

awesome strat.. going to have to give it a shot. have you tried it as egypt yet?? the obelisk is cheaper than a temple and lets you run 2 priests right away.. even w/o religion if I remember correctly. would make up for the fact that ramsses is ind rather than phi. industrius would help more I think because you could get the wall and an obelisk before you would without ind. and the 2 priests would be equivelant gpp from phi. but more hammers :D

give it a shot let me know what you think?

NaZ

you won't have a good chance for the Great engineer (1/3 only!) + beware of the starting techs: egypt isn't the best client for early religions

Industrious civs probably have a better chance by just building the pyramids normally, running 2 gp's off a library or Egyptian obelisk unfortunately makes it less likely to get an engineer. Most of the cute GP tricks really need philosophical to be viable at high levels.

Ok, i gave it another try (Epic speed), got the usual ice/tundra start with lots of seafood (anybody else who often get that start with Ghandi?) and also lots of forests. Still very difficult, look at the timeline:

polytheism researched in 3310

bronze working researched in 2500, worker ready It's 15 turns to masonry from here, in this time the worker can build a mine and prechop 2 forests (60 hammers) . capital is at 3, builds monument and whips it when there is one turn left,45 hammers. so when masonry is researched we have 105 hammers ,we live in the year 2050 and still have 375-105 =270 hammers to go . from this point on i got 8 H/turn from city and chop one forest every 5 turns for an average of 6H/turn. so GW takes 270/14 * 30 year ~~ 600 year to complete from this point (actually longer because i started to lose some of the 8H/T due to chopping)

I was duly beaten to GW in 1480.

So i tried again: this time i built monument and barracks while researching poly and bw taking them of the queue once they were one step from completion, i was just able to finish the first worker when i discovered bw. i whipped monument and barracks for a total of 90H at this moment so i immediately had a second worker. This worked, i now had GW in 1510 (i made some small mistakes could have been 1600 ithink). Exciting but very unnatural. my empire is really in a sorry state capital full of buildings but whipped down to size 1. Next whip is the temple and settlers will not be built before 1000bc.due to building monument and barracks i haven't got very much warriors either.

The point is that researching the techs took too long so it seems to me that an early commerce tile or a river would be very useful and almost essential. Every turn to accelerate the speed of poly and especially bw is important.

I can pull this off pretty consistently now.

My build:

Research: Polyth-Bronze-Masonry-Agriculture-Priesthood

Production: Warrior-Warrior-Worker-Warrior-GW-Temple

I've found there is time to sneak agriculture in there while the GW is being built meaning you can get down a farm (great if a farmable resource in capital BFC) to help work mines and also to regrow after whipping of GW or Temple (or if you have nice production and don't need to whip either, whipping settler after).

****

However, although I love this strat and the idea of getting early pyramids, I'm starting to change my mind about pyramids, mainly because I want to start playing consistently on emperor and I just feel like, as acidsatyr has said, that I would be better off just putting focus on early expansion. It just seems to me that expansion is MOST important and the SE can still be very competitive even without pyramids :)

I always play on Marathon speed. Think this might work for me?

However, although I love this strat and the idea of getting early pyramids, I'm starting to change my mind about pyramids, mainly because I want to start playing consistently on emperor and I just feel like, as acidsatyr has said, that I would be better off just putting focus on early expansion. It just seems to me that expansion is MOST important and the SE can still be very competitive even without pyramids :)

I don't know if the Se can be competitive without pyramids, but I know for sure that with the GE for pyramids strat
I had very limited expansion,
and so very limited production capacity
and so a very limited army,
which may not be enough to kill my neighbour.

I'll give it another try (good feeling to have 4 wonders in an "emperor " game by 200 AD), and maybe try the old "3 cities while oracling Metal casting, whip forge, run engineer, GE builds pyramids" to compare.

However, although I love this strat and the idea of getting early pyramids, I'm starting to change my mind about pyramids, mainly because I want to start playing consistently on emperor and I just feel like, as acidsatyr has said, that I would be better off just putting focus on early expansion. It just seems to me that expansion is MOST important and the SE can still be very competitive even without pyramids :)
Agreed i usually found hinduism for happiness as Ghandi if i have no luxury resource nearby but even this is risky because i can't always research bronzeworking and Animal husbandry (if i miss out on copper) in time. It's seems you have to play a very basic expansion/units opening on Emperor to be save. Happiness has to come later it seems.

As for the Se, Pyramids are at it's best pre alphabet for the happiness and the extra research to alphabet and after education to get to liberalism early.
Also resarcing constitution takes time without pyramids (Acidsatyr's idea to lightbulb this with a GM seems like a great idea to me, didn't know this was possible).Between Alphabet and liberalism the Se rocks with or without pyramids.

I don't know if the Se can be competitive without pyramids, but I know for sure that with the GE for pyramids strat
I had very limited expansion,
and so very limited production capacity
and so a very limited army,
which may not be enough to kill my neighbour.

I'll give it another try (good feeling to have 4 wonders in an "emperor " game by 200 AD), and maybe try the old "3 cities while oracling Metal casting, whip forge, run engineer, GE builds pyramids" to compare.
I also tried this one but it is much more difficult than the GW gambit. I found that i just couldn't research the techs in time. Also you'll have to build units against barbs in this case.

yeah, the great thing about the GW gambit is no worrying about barbs :D

hermit,

wanted to give you some feedback after giving the strat a shot with egypt.

researched mining, bronze, masonry, mysticism, poly, AH, writing, alpha, lit

built warrior, worker, warrior, great wall, obelisk, settler, settler

ran 2 priests, turned them off to let the wonder finish the gp pool. popped an engineer got pyramids at 940bc with 2 cities up.

no religion on the whole continent until I founded taoism.. but didnt need the religion to run the priests!!!

was able to continue expanding while pulling off your strat, very cool and the chariots helped me in an early war with the romans.

give it a shot let me know what you think and how to fine tune it

NaZ

why did you research poly at that time?

why no wheel? wouldn't you want to hook up horses/bronze/(stone?) asap?

what were the odds of you popping that GE? it sounds great, but if the odds are low then you can't count on it with egypt most games. with gandhi i'm looking at 60/40, which is not great odds, but better than 50/50 i'll take anyday.

not having to rely on founding a religion is good imo (although it does give you a fall-back option of building a shrine with your gp if you don't get a ge).

war chariots are an insane complement to this strategy however (to recover from initial lack of expansion). so if we could get it to work consistently, that would be great. plus, obviously, industrious really helps build the GW initially, another bonus.

however, no philosophical :(

^^ egypt starts with the wheel!
but researching AH would be needed to get the horses

oops, my bad, forgot about that!!!

****

i played around with this strat with stalin. bronze-masonry-anhusb-writing.

chopped great wall (industrious) and then a library and ran 2 scientists. nearly 50-50 chance GE and GS and got a GS at 1200BC. so same timing for gp as with gandhi. slightly worse odds of getting GE, but the nice thing is i would rather have a GS than a GE. you can lightbulb math early and trade that, keeping a monopoly on alphabet for as long as possible. however, you still end up in a hole expansion-wise, so if you don't have copper nearby, you could be hard pressed to expand quick enough to recover. but, stalin is aggressive, so that would help during this recovery period.


EDIT: PS, Stalin has cossacks so if you want to go for a miltrad liberalism sling that could make for a nice early domination win. and of course he also has research institutes helping late-game space race push.

hermit,

time for a recap of game 2, and I'll include a couple of saves for you to look over. mind you this is only a prince game, but your micro should be able to pull it off at emperor.

smarter research path this time, (egypt starts with wheel btw)

mining (from hut on like 2nd turn), bronze, (hut popped masonry whee) ah, poly, mono, priesthood, writing, alpha, lit
founded judaism :D


warrior, worker, wall, obelisk, chariot, settler, chariot chariot chariot
(running police state of cource)

ran 2 priests in capitol, engineer popped turn after 850bc with 52% odds from priest microing.

I got lucky in that regard.. city 2 to the southeast had stone available. saladin was not well protected and my chariots took his cities out.. kept them for myself. his capitol became the great library's location and my gp farm from 3 different 5 food spots :D

so my feedback. the early prophets add hammers and gold to help keep research at 100% harder to do without the tech popps but hence why I could deviate and pick up other techs. starting with agri and wheel is a huge boon, your worker can start farming right away and hooking up resources.

what I did notice is I have to be mindful not to let the chance of a prophet go over 50%, turn them off until engineer pulls ahead then run them etc. I've popped at 50% or better twice now.

and the chariots make it easy to run someone else over :D

games attached

NaZ

Good idea about microing the priests, I didn't really consider that.

Would you be willing to try your start a couple times on emperor?

You don't need to play the game out, and with the GW, you won't have to worry about early barb slaughter.

I'm just curious about how it works at a higher skill level.

Let me know.

Playing with priests to boost the GPP rate is a dangerous game. I've done this on occasion and had Great Prophets pop at <15% (don't remember the exact number but it was 15 when I turned the priest specialist off). This can work if you have a good use for the other GP, (I always try to found a religion or two if possible) but in this strategy it seems like it might be disastrous.

Not disastrous, assuming we found an early religion. Worst case scenario, you can always use him to lightbulb theology for early theocracy to help your recovery expansion.

hermit,

other way around friend. I don't even play at monarch yet post patch because I always get my ass whooped. try the strat out per my suggestions, tweak it a bit and get back to me, I'll run it your way to see if we can pull off similar effects. I've been using priests with an engineer under a forge to speed up great engineer production :D the obelisk rocks towards a SE hehe thats why they took away phi from egypt.

NaZ

^^^once i'm finished playing around with gandhi then i'll take a crack at it with egypt.

what happened with this thread?

NaZ

Holidays :p

Ok, I tried this out with Egypt. It definitely can work...although it requires some luck to get the GE instead of GP. If it works, you will have to try and recover expansion via conquest, so hopefully you have horses nearby for access to the UU.

I managed to get a settler out BEFORE chopping GW, which I think is a good idea.

good to hear you had some success with it! I've played like 5 games with it so far.. only 1 I didn't get the engineer. most important thing is to make sure you dont run priests until after the wall is up.. throws off the percentages. and make sure to turn them off so there are points left to get before the GE could spawn.. helps the % a bit.

getting a prophet early could result in a good tech pop if you plan it right.. but the cost could really hurt.

horses are more important than stone when settling the 2nd city I think

any more feedback hermit?

naz

Not much. I don't know what more to say really. Emperor+ you need to expand quickly or die pretty much. Pyramids are a great boost, but are very costly in hammers. This gambit gives you a shot at it and takes care of barbs to boot. If I play as Egypt, especially Rameses AND I see horses nearby (research AnHusb 1st) AND the capital seems suited to it (decent # of forests) then I will definitely consider doing this. It's a gambit, so it's situation specific, for sure, but it's nice to have in one' bag o' tricks to pull out when the situation calls for it.

The best tech you're going to get with a GP is theology. You have to weigh that against a shrine. If you found a religion, I would think the shrine would be the way to go.

I've been fooling around with this with Hatty a bit. Since she's creative I tried a cheap library and using scientists instead. It works as well. The nice thing is that a GS > GP, so at least you can bulb philosophy post-math/CoL if you get a GS instead of GE.

ooh a non religious path to the same goal?? I'll have to give that a shot. engineers kinda make it wasteful to be industrious.. but teching upwards like that is killer. since you can hop to writing after AH or pottery (and have pre-reqs for either) that would make for a super early library. and rather than running priests there would be a beaker boost as well.

I'll give it a shot, seems like a damn good backup plan for if you miss the engineer.

NaZ

hermit!!

not to just bump this but the thread has re-peaked my interest in trying the SE. any more feedback on your strat?? about to give hatty a run to see how that works out.. but not industrious would make it more difficult perhaps to land the wall and the GL?? thoughts??

NaZ

well just wanted to follow up with a midgame report from germany.

went with frederick for phi/org

peaceful rex with lots of turf, got the wall up with the whip, overflow in to library, ran 2 scientists and popped an engineer at 66% to get the pyramids at like 900bc. next was an engineer, used it on the GL, next was a scientist I used to pop a tech... then another engineer which I used on the gardens. its early AD, and I'm about to start laying waste to isabella as she always annoys me. poor girl is about to face swords and cats vs her stupid archers.. not going to be pretty for her :D


NaZ

nice to hear :) what skill level were you playing on? my final conclusion with this strat is that it's something you should have in your arsenal and pull it out when the situation calls for it :D

past few tries were at prince level. I think I'm about ready to step up to monarch but I keep getting bored in the midgame so I haven't finished a game in a while.

its tough to pull off the wall in a timely fashion without chopping a bunch of forests, and I've found it better to follow your lead and get the settlers out after the wall is up

I've found that running the scientsts is better in the long run, the capitol ends up being a sci / eng gp farm w/ the wall,pyramids,great library, forge, 2 scientists and an engineer. roughly 40% eng 60% sci on any spawn and either are welcome at just about any time in the game

NaZ

agreed, very nice.

I did this on emproer with oracle instead of priest and it worked great. Getting Great wall, oracle, pyramids, Toa(with next GE) and GL in capital for a quite insane amount of GPP without running specialists. This was on Emperor. Also as Peter not as Ghandi so i didnt even have myst. I did however have marble in capital and loads of production. The fact that my second city had 2 gold mines and 2 deers(stealing a deer on plainsforest from capital). This allowed me to rex quite a bit seeing as there were no nearby neighbours and I was using Great wall to avoid barbs without having any guard from setlers frequently settling next to barb archers. I caputred a couple barb cities and went straight for the stars with biggest amount of land without ever having fougth a war(cept a lategame one against ghengis since i didnt have much def...).