One of the techniques I like to use on prince level is to get biology as the free tech from liberalism. This is of course much harder on monarch and probably impossible above that, but still, assuming that one pulls it off on prince/monarch at a relatively early date (my best so far is 780 AD on prince, 1030 AD on monarch) what is the best use of it?

I used to make the mistake of overgrowing my cities and running a very high culture slider, but my economy tends to stagnate after this.

So basically I'm wondering if anyone else knows how to play this slingshot to its full potential.. Should one run slavery/theocracy and whip enormous amounts of grenadiers immediately or fall back on caste system/pacifism? Should one start cottaging like crazy, utilizing the fact that cottage cities can now grow well with a farm or two?

My own inclination is that this slingshot is absolutely best for a diplo win since one can hold massive amounts of population, and bulbing will ge mass media somewhat quickly... I've never pulled of an early space race (1600s) with this strateg, since the effort of the slingshot tends to hold back my early expansion, leading to a smaller empire and in the long run hurting my science..

The main purpose in slingshotting liberalism to biology is to maximize your end-game score. If you are in a position to delay liberalism that long, the game obviously isn't challenging. Simply get close to the domination limit then start farming like crazy and watch your score start going up by leaps and bounds. To top it all off, you can even build a very late hanging gardens to score tens of thousands of extra points. Biology will typically play no role whatsoever in any sort of fastest finish.

The main purpose in slingshotting liberalism to biology is to maximize your end-game score. If you are in a position to delay liberalism that long, the game obviously isn't challenging. Simply get close to the domination limit then start farming like crazy and watch your score start going up by leaps and bounds. To top it all off, you can even build a very late hanging gardens to score tens of thousands of extra points. Biology will typically play no role whatsoever in any sort of fastest finish.

On monarch its pretty late, I agree, generally due to the need to defend oneself.. But supposing one could pull it off at a similar date as on prince (like I noted above its possible at least at 780 AD, possibly earlier), whats the best way to leverage any advantage gotten from it?

I have noticed a massive rise in score when I get biology with a large empire, but the point was that for this early biology one probably wont have such a very large empire, because that kind of slingshot requires a heavily cottaged capital pumping every last commerce into beakers together with a dedicated GP farm pumping GS, i.e. no time to expand.

Personally I do agree that expand, expand, expand is the order of the day, one will finish much earlier that way, but the tech boom comes later that way, because of all the cost of early expansion.

One of the techniques I like to use on prince level is to get biology as the free tech from liberalism. This is of course much harder on monarch and probably impossible above that, but still, assuming that one pulls it off on prince/monarch at a relatively early date (my best so far is 780 AD on prince, 1030 AD on monarch) what is the best use of it?

I used to make the mistake of overgrowing my cities and running a very high culture slider, but my economy tends to stagnate after this.

So basically I'm wondering if anyone else knows how to play this slingshot to its full potential.. Should one run slavery/theocracy and whip enormous amounts of grenadiers immediately or fall back on caste system/pacifism? Should one start cottaging like crazy, utilizing the fact that cottage cities can now grow well with a farm or two?

My own inclination is that this slingshot is absolutely best for a diplo win since one can hold massive amounts of population, and bulbing will ge mass media somewhat quickly... I've never pulled of an early space race (1600s) with this strateg, since the effort of the slingshot tends to hold back my early expansion, leading to a smaller empire and in the long run hurting my science..

Biology slingshot??
aren't you talking of chemistry (grenadiers)??

the only use for biology slingshot is for the supersize me challenge...

You guys are completely wrong.

Biology slingshot = SE heaven.

@ OP: Please post your build/strategy. I'd like to try it out.

right!
DaveMcW made all of us sick with a 860 AD biology in challenge n°8 : super size me. Having biology even earlier is really astounishing.
I'd like to see it too.
oracle i suppose?
do you go for alphabet or leave it out?
do you trade like crazy or leave most trades out to be first to liberalism?
do you totally beeline?
do you OCC? or refrain to 3 cities?

For the 780 AD biology date my I did very limited tech trading up until biology. The trick was to have only three cities (one captured btw. so it was not planned). Difficulty was prince, barbarians on, inland sea map. Leader: Elizabeth (yep)

Capital was rivers/floodplains -> heavily cottaged
Other city GP farm -> founded CoL there so sent missionary to capital, then switched to Confucianism/pacifism.

Did not build pyramids.
Did build oracle (bureaucracy, ca 500 BC)
Got great library in capital(had marble in second city). This was a bit unfortunate since I was farming GSs in the other city, really.
Did not run representation (since I didnt have pyramids), research came from 5 cottaged river tiles in capital + all the GS I managed to pop. Ran HL.

Bulbed: Philosophy, Education, Printing Press, Chemistry, Scientific Method

Here's the fun part. Some turns after I got biology Louis XIV attacks. I had no defended except 2 chariots. At this point, he is coming at me with archers/swordmen. Haha, good luck, Louis...

I generally play at small map size (which would affect research times I guess) so I dont know if this is doable on a large/huge map...

Lightbulbs are the key to making this work. But, I would tend to use the free tech to push myself towards Constitution asap if I was running heavy specialists without pyramids. With pyramids it's worth considering biology but it's hard to pull off at high levels - best to research liberalism until 1 turn remaining, then switch research and keep checking to see if anyone else has acquired both liberalism prereqs (because they will always go for it if they have.)

That being said I took radio as the liberalism free tech in one of the GOTMs, I can't remember if that was on warlord or prince :p However I had a runaway tech lead anyway and just wanted to get the max beakers possible for the space race.

That being said I took radio as the liberalism free tech in one of the GOTMs, I can't remember if that was on warlord or prince :p However I had a runaway tech lead anyway and just wanted to get the max beakers possible for the space race.

you guys just make me feel stupid. My best tech from liberalism is still astronomy after 1 year of cIV :cry:

you guys just make me feel stupid. My best tech from liberalism is still astronomy after 1 year of cIV :cry:
In a OCC I routinely get Electricity from it. I guess the key point (that has already been made above by others) is that you need many specialists and few cities. Both of which holds true for a tech heavy OCC strategy.

@frob: You built the Oracle in 500BC?? Or did you build it earlier and switched to Bureaucracy in 500BC? I can hardly believe you can still build the Oracle that late on any level above Noble.

--Sigi

Biology slingshot = SE heaven.
True as that may be, I'm not sure its entirely relevent to the topic. If you can manage a biology slingshot, you're certainly not participating in a competitive game. As such, your main goal is likely to win as quickly as possible or achieve as high a score as possible (If this is not the case, then why even inquire as to the best use?). I already said that a Biology slingshot was a very effective method of maximizing score, but let's look at the fastest finishes.

Domination - You were better off getting liberalism much earlier (if at all) to give you an immediate military advantage (cavalry, for instance).

Conquest - See Domination.

Diplomatic - You were likely better off using liberalism to grab one of the techs on the way to Mass Media (electricity is a favorite).

Cultural - Liberalism is possibly the single most important tech in a cultural victory. There is absolutely no justifiable reason to delay it.

Space Race - This is the only one where I could see some potential synergy. If (and only if) you were running a heavily specialist-based economy which you aren't transitioning to cottages, a Biology slingshot may help you launch your ship faster. It's quite possible, though, that some other tech (Democracy, for instance) could have been a bigger help. It's debatable, though, whether a specialist economy will ever launch a faster spaceship than a cottaged economy. This is the one victory condition where I think a cottage economy has a sizable speed advantage.

Its true, I did have space race in the back of my mind.. However, if one is holding biology in the 8th century one also has chemistry.. Steel is researchable, and one can whip like a maniac and easily recover. There is some military advantage.

Chemistry is pretty easy to get ca 300-400 AD with the same strategy, but since printing press and sci/meth can be bulbed directly, if one has two GS available its a pretty short step to get biology.

Would you say Liberalism for chemistry is a good move?

Would you say Liberalism for chemistry is a good move?
It is a very strong move in aggressive games. If you can pull it off, another very strong move is to use a great scientist to nab chemistry and then use liberalism to get steel. If you can bring cannons to bear that early in the game, you are unstoppable.

In a OCC I routinely get Electricity from it. I guess the key point (that has already been made above by others) is that you need many specialists and few cities. Both of which holds true for a tech heavy OCC strategy.

@frob: You built the Oracle in 500BC?? Or did you build it earlier and switched to Bureaucracy in 500BC? I can hardly believe you can still build the Oracle that late on any level above Noble.

--Sigi

Between 1000BC - 500 BC I think it was, a bit earlier than 500 BC but not so much. The oracle comes in ca 500 BC for the AI on prince, ca 1000 BC on monarch, I've noticed.

What holds back oracle construction is the need to have CoL and Math ready and researched when completing in order to get Bureaucracy..

Bureaucracy is essential to the strategy I use since the capital cottages must be able to fill the gaps left by bulbing.

Does anyone have a surefire way to get Bureaucracy from oracle on Monarch? I tend to get CoL on monarch which forces me to research Bureaucracy..

Does anyone have a surefire way to get Bureaucracy from oracle on Monarch? I tend to get CoL on monarch which forces me to research Bureaucracy..
Not surefire, but the most efficient method is to beeline Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > CoL. Get the library up as quickly as possible and start running 2 scientists. You want a great scientist to pop before you finish the oracle so it can lightbulb mathematics. That's pretty much the absolute fastest way to CS now.

The biology slotshot can help with diplomatic. The bigger your cities are, the more votes you have. You can also trade it to your voting bloc so that they have more votes. Its also a great tech to gift to the ai because they wont have it when you slingshot it.

In a OCC I routinely get Electricity from it. I guess the key point (that has already been made above by others) is that you need many specialists and few cities. Both of which holds true for a tech heavy OCC strategy.

@frob: You built the Oracle in 500BC?? Or did you build it earlier and switched to Bureaucracy in 500BC? I can hardly believe you can still build the Oracle that late on any level above Noble.

--Sigi
It's possible. Sometimes, the AI just has a brain fart. I've seen Stonehenge hang around into the ADs!:eek: And Buddhism founded by....SHAKA...when there was Asoka, Izzie, and Monty. I guess they all went for Hinduism and forgot Meditation was even an option. Sometimes, for completely random reasons, some wonders and religions just kinda get forgotten...then again, there was the time when I heard the Oracle was built around ~2300BC, and keep in mind I play Prince...that was crazy, I was actually planning a slingshot too:cry: Oh well...

you guys just make me feel stupid. My best tech from liberalism is still astronomy after 1 year of cIV :cry:

You and me both :rolleyes:

But futurehermit's right - if there's any reason to try a lib-bio slingshot, and any game that could benefit from it, it's a specialist economy style game.