View Full Version : Double Your Pleasure


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Isak
Jun 08, 2002, 12:01 PM
jbrice78: No problem - sorry if we haven't made it clear that this is why we haven't been patching in a while - I would update the DyP site with a bit of info on what can be expected, but I can't get access to the ftp :( ..... Bernskov, where are you???:confused: :confused:

Matthew: Oooh - could you send me a savegame? I would love to find out what happened.

Kal-el
Jun 08, 2002, 12:08 PM
I think Bernskov said he is in the process of moving house, so he is unavailable for a while.

bernskov
Jun 08, 2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Isak
I would update the DyP site with a bit of info on what can be expected, but I can't get access to the ftp :( ..... Bernskov, where are you???

I am here.
I am just having some major problems with your employer Tele Denmark Communications (TDC)

I still have no Internet at home, but you can access the webpage via ftp, just replace the ftp://FTP.xxx.xxx with ftp://CIV3.xxx.xxx

that should get you going.
My mail is not working because the S**t-Heads at TDC do not allow for incomming port 25
I am so pissed...
Send E-mails at bernskov@hotmail.com if needed.

Civ Broker
Jun 09, 2002, 08:54 AM
I am having difficulty getting the "DYP_v033.zip." to unload. I downloaded all of the files for the modem install (without apparent difficulty), and followed the instructions to install. I got as far as double clicking the "dyp_join.bat"file and then double-clicked the new "DYP_v033.zip" and got the following WinZip error message.

"Error (c:/program files/infogrames interactive/civilization III/ civdyp/dyp_v033.zip): Missing 1457664 bytes is zip file (attempting to process anyway)". I then clicked OK and got the following WinZip error message.
"The WinZip wizard cannot open file; it does not appear to be a valid archive."

Can you give any suggestions? Can't wait to get started with this mod.


Thanks,
Civ Broker

Kal-el
Jun 09, 2002, 03:34 PM
I know its not a real solution to the problem but it is a work around for now. Try downloading one of the full versions. I know it is a lot to download at once but I think you will find it well worth it. We (by this I mean Isak) will have to try and fix this issue.

Sorry for the hassle.

sjeng
Jun 10, 2002, 03:01 PM
Are you sure that there hasn't occured a simple error while downloading?
You could just try to download it a second time and most zip-programs have a repair function. Good luck

Kal-el
Jun 10, 2002, 09:47 PM
In the latest testing Isak was able to produce a Great Leader, so that means we will be able to keep the extra combat experience level.

We expect to release the latest and greatest version of the mod by the end of this week. Hopefully this next release will include an earth map for you all to play on.

GIDustin
Jun 10, 2002, 11:44 PM
Just letting you all know I am still alive :p

With finals over, I can now start working on this mod again, however it seems mostly finished (until the release of the Civ3 Expansion)

I have been spending the last coupla weeks trying to find a way to increase performance of my web server as people have been hammering it for leaderheads and units. I am about to give up! :p

This thread has grown about 8 or 9 pages since I was last here and I dont have enough time to read it all.

Well, Lemme know if you need any help with the mod. PM or email is the best way in case I miss a post.

GIDustin

Morbius
Jun 11, 2002, 03:58 AM
im already looking forward to seeing the end of the week.

Kal-el
Jun 12, 2002, 10:58 AM
CB,

Did you get it to work for you?

Q.Fabius
Jun 12, 2002, 05:47 PM
kal-el, thank you. you've made a wonderful game better, this is the first time i've sent a missive here but thus am i moved, keep up the splended work.
:goodjob:
one point, i was able to build bazzars before i had a temple, should this be so?:confused:
vale

Kal-el
Jun 12, 2002, 05:53 PM
I am glad you like it.

bazaar and temple: the two are not connected. the bazaar is a later version of the marketplace.

Hawk2112
Jun 13, 2002, 12:47 PM
Can anyone help me with getting Civ 3 working well with XP? I upgraded from Win98SE and now Civ 3 is running slower than a snail race. I actually have better performance with my old AMD K6/2 400 Win98 notebook than with my AMD Duron 950 XP desktop. :eek:

I'm playing Civ 3 with DYP, 256X256 huge maps. I know that's kind of extreme, but they ran like lightning with Win98 :confused:

I know this silly thing is set up right, as processor and graphics intensive 3D games, like The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Medal of Honor: Allied Assault work beautifully, yet Civ 3, a more 2D game has the same performance I came to expect with my Commodore 64! :ar15:

Isak
Jun 13, 2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Hawk2112
Can anyone help me with getting Civ 3 working well with XP? I upgraded from Win98SE and now Civ 3 is running slower than a snail race.Did you install XP on top of win98? If you did, that might be part of the problem - I know MS say this can be done without problems, but they've been saying that since Win95-98 upgrades were released and they weren't right then, so I don't believe they are right, now. I'm sure all the MS parts are updated correctly, but all the other little utilities we like to cram on our harddrives are more doubtful IMO.
Did you try re-installing Civ3 ?(only applies if you upgraded - i.e. didn't format the harddrive before installing XP)

Other things to try could be:
- Checking or disabling Memory resident programs
- Updating or Downgrading video card drivers. :confused: I know - which one should you choose. I don't know, some say one some the other. I have almost the same config as you except I'm running win98, and I had to downgrade my drivers when I installed Civ3. I haven't tried any of the newer NVIDIA drivers though, so whatever problems there were with the one I tried, could have been fixed. OTOH, my problems with the newer drivers could be because NVIDIA aren't really supporting win98 anymore.
- Accept it :) Don't mean to be cheeky, but the slowness of the late game is a known problem, and Firaxis official solution to it was to reduce the standard map sizes. I've seen some huge games with more than 2000 units in them :eek: - I doubt these will ever be really slow...

I guess you should also check out the Technical Forum - I've browsed through it a lot during the last few months, but I may have missed some things that were not so generally applicable, but may hold true for your configuration, so just to be sure...

Also feel free to email me if you've got further info or questions - adress is at the DyP site. I know this silly thing is set up right, as processor and graphics intensive 3D games, like The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Medal of Honor: Allied Assault work beautifully, That's no guarantee I'm afraid. They can be, and were most likely written for other drivers, versions of Direct X, using memory in a different way, etc..:(
yet Civ 3, a more 2D game has the same performance I came to expect with my Commodore 64! :ar15: What do you mean - the C64 was/is lightning fast.....once the game has loaded anyway :D

Morbius
Jun 14, 2002, 03:10 AM
indeed, never underestimate a C64 system.

Hawk2112
Jun 14, 2002, 10:38 AM
I did a clean install of XP. I'm using NTFS for my file system. I dunno. As far as drivers, I'm using the latest, greatest Nvidia drivers for my GeForce 2MX400, Soundblaster 16 PCI, and Via 4-in-1. I guess I just have to live with it, as I'm quite addicted to DyP :lol: .

To all those who I offended with my C64 comment, forgive me. I was speaking of the drive loads, not once the game was loaded;)

Morbius
Jun 14, 2002, 06:48 PM
in that case you are forgiven.

-------------------------

its been the lucky days, the days when playing games always meant to enter another world, the days when ....

does anybody know this game ? another world ( i played it on an amiga 500)

Jandor
Jun 15, 2002, 04:54 AM
Double your PLeasure should mean, double your unique units :)

lets have a second UU for all civs :)

hawqeye
Jun 15, 2002, 11:07 AM
This is an ambitious mod that so far is well put together. The last version that I played was version .40 and played until 2050 and still had plenty to go without much for war at the time. I think that this should be one of the mods that is included in the Expansion Pack because it does add at least double to the game. This mod has inspired me to try to create a mod myself, so I wanted to say thanks and cannot wait until the first full release.

Kal-el
Jun 15, 2002, 11:59 AM
jandor,

the problem with adding extra UU's is the lack of artwork available. We still are missing animations for some of the general units.

If and when we do add a second set of UUs I want it to be something that goes in as one package. I still complaints that certain units are borrowing other units animations. Come on guys, do you think I don't know? Do you think its not something high on my wishlist? believe me I am trying to get the local artists to put together DyP units, but they have their own agendas too and I don't want to push them to hard. Don't want to get on their bad sides.

A suggestion to all of you. Let the Forum artists know which units you would like to see. The more voices calling for the missing DyP units the more likely they are to put them together. If you see a unit suggestion or request by me on the main creation forum, you can bet its something I would like to add to the Mod. Make a comment on that thread, add your voice to mine. If my requests don't get any support from the rest of you the artists have no reason to think that this is a unit that the fans really want and will work on something else "more worhtwhile".

"help me, help you!" ;)

would it be helpful if I posted here every time I post a unit request?

Jandor
Jun 16, 2002, 03:10 AM
Here are some good unit animations you can use,

Long Swordsman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23271)

Crusader (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23144)

bshirt
Jun 16, 2002, 09:05 AM
Kal-el;

Well, what's the scoop on the new release? Running a bit behind schedule?

Sure am enjoying the latest version. Just took a while to get used to the no mining of grasslands. I like it now though!

Isak
Jun 16, 2002, 09:27 AM
bshirt: Only slightly - things keep popping up, and we don't want to release another patch immediately after this big one (if we can avoid it that is).

I think it is pretty safe to assume it will be out within less than 12 hours. (hope I don't break my back on that statement ;) )

jbrice78
Jun 16, 2002, 09:52 AM
Can anyone post the following two files for me from this mod;

....Civilization III\Art\City Screen\buildings-Large.pxc
....Civilization III\Art\City Screen\buildings-small.pxc

I know there large files but I'd really appreciate it.

kingjoshi
Jun 16, 2002, 09:55 AM
jbrice:

For which Version of the mod?

jbrice78
Jun 16, 2002, 09:57 AM
V.47

kingjoshi
Jun 16, 2002, 10:02 AM
Here are the files from the v0.40 -> v0.45 patch, since the v0.46 and v0.47 do not contain art files.

bshirt
Jun 16, 2002, 01:25 PM
Isak;

Great!

Excellent news, thank you.

Kal-el
Jun 16, 2002, 06:04 PM
the new world map is available, it is DyP v.0.75 compatible.

you can get it here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25017

Kal-el
Jun 16, 2002, 06:07 PM
Here is the Changelog from the latest update v.0.75. As you can see it is quite extensive, hence the delay in releasing it.

Isak should have it available shortly.

Change Log
06/14/02
------------------------------------
v.0.7.5
-----------------------------------
*Misc
- Edit: Diplomats can now steal world maps
- Edit: Civilization colors have been changed.
*Units
- Edit: Armies can now pillage tile improvements
- Edit: Previous Tank unit renamed Armor
- Added: New Tank unit (ADM: 14/14/2; requires Oil, Rubber, Iron; Avail. with Combustion, Upgrade to Armor)
- Added: Clan unit - initial settler which only requires 1 population to build, upgrades to Settler.
- Added: Shaman unit - initial settler unit for religious civs which only requires 1 population to build, upgrades to Missionary.
- Edit: Settler is now available with Masonry.
- Edit: Missionary is now available with Masonry.
***Note: the above 4 changes have been implemented as a workaround in an attempt to help AI growth.
- Edit: The Brave unit now uses Archer artwork instead. (To prevent the surprise attack effect)
- Added: Steam Frigate Unit (A/D/M 7/6/4 - S/R/F 8/1/2 - HP 3 - Transport 1 - Cost 17 - Tech Steam Power - Resources Iron, Coal, Timber)
- Edit: Corvette, Frigate, Man-O-War: Now upgrade to Steam Frigate.
- Edit: Ironclad stats changed (A/D/M 5/5/3 - S/R/F 6/1/2 - HP 3 - sink in ocean)
- Edit: SpecOps now require Oil in addition to Rubber
- Edit: Brave unit has been changed (ADM=2/1/1 Bombard=3/1/1, upgrades to Longbowman)
- Edit: Removed Immobile flag for Air Bombard units and Air Transports, enabling free roaming for these units
- Edit: Air Bombard units can no longer be loaded on carriers
- Added: Advanced Fighter unit (ADM=18/12/0, Bombard=18/7/2, Op. Range 7, Available with Stealth)
- Added: Bi-Plane unit (ADM=4/2/0, Bombard=6/3/1, Op. Range 3, Available with Flight
- Added: Strategic Bomber unit (ADM=0/10/8, Bombard=24/8/4, Op. Range 8, Available with Rocketry)
- Added: Air Ship unit (ADM=0/3/4, Bombard=12/2/2, Op.Range 2, Available with The Corporation)
- Edit: Air Units have been reworked, changes mainly to ADM ratings, Bombard ratings and Tech Requirements
- Edit: Humvee - Movement rate reduced to 4 but now treats all terrain as roads
- Added: Jeep Unit (ADM=8/10/4, Bombard=8/10/4, Transport 1, All terrain as roads, available with Motorized Transportation)
- Added: Tank Unit (ADM=14/14/2, Bombard=8/10/4, Wheeled, Available with Combustion, upgrades to Armor)
- Edit: Renamed orginal Tank unit Armor
- Edit: Grunt, Marine and Paratrooper ADM ratings increased.
- Edit: New movement rates for Wonder Builder units (Merchant=1, Caravan=2, Freight=3)
- Added: Unit animations for Crusader (Cavalier unit)
- Added: Unit animations for Merchant (Trading Cart unit)
- Added: Unit animations for Longswordsman (Teutonic Knight)
- Added: Unit animations for Barbarian Rider (Arabian Horseman)
- Fixed: Explorer can now be loaded onto transport
- Fixed: Scout can now be loaded onto transport
- Edit: Changed costs for Dragoon, Cossack, Cavalry and Humvee
*Terrain
- Edit: Floodplains changed to 3/0/0 (was 4/0/0)
*Resources
- Edit: Gold and Silver now share Icons (meaning you need to right click the tile to discover which of the two you have discovered)
- Edit: Rice now appears on Flood Plains
- Edit: Coffee now appears on Hills
- Added: Pigs resource added (bonus, gives 2/0/0 - appear on Plains, Grassland and Hills)
- Edit: Removed Appearance/Disappearance ratios for Luxuries
- Fixed: Tobacco now flagged to appear (on plains and grassland; was none)
- Edit: Stone and Marble resources removed.
- Added: Natives resource added (Strategic, gives 0/2/0 - can appear on all land tiles)
- Edit: Incense is now a strategic resource (was luxury)
- Added: Olive Oil resource added (Luxury, gives 1/0/1 - appears on Grassland and Forest)
- Edit: Rice switched to providing 2 food (was 3)
- Edit: Terrain for most resources have been reworked.
*Improvements
- Edit: Skyscraper no longer gives a bonus to Production.
- Edit: University now requires Academy to be built (was: Library)
- Edit: Port now requires Harbor to be built.
- Edit: Stock Market has been renamed to Stock Exchange and now requires a Bank to be built.
- Edit: Sewage Treatment Plant has been renamed Sewer System
- Edit: Maintenance costs of many improvements increased.
- Edit: Hollywood no longer gives +2 happy in all cities, and only gives +2 happy in this city (was: +4)
- Edit: Civil Rights Movement no longer gives 2 happy in all cities.
- Edit: Circus Maximus no longer gives 2 happy in all cities.
- Edit: United Nations wonder no longer requires Atomic Weapons Test to be built
- Edit: Eiffel Tower now makes one happy on continent
- Edit: Spirit of St. Louis wonder now also gives +1 ship movement (again)
- Edit: Electricity Improvement is now available to all civs, not just the builder of Energy Grid Wonder
- Edit: Human Genome Project now requires that a Research Lab has been built in the city.
- Edit: East India Company now requires that a Port has been built in the city.
- Edit: Wall Street now requires 3 x Stock Stock Exchange instead of 5 x Bank.
- Edit: SETI Program now requires that a Research Lab has been built in the city.
- Edit: Theory of Evolution now requires that a University has been built in the city.
- Edit: Smith's Trading Co. now requires that a Bazaar has been built in the city.
- Edit: Newton's University now requires that a University has been built in the city.
- Edit: Copernicus Observatory now requires that a Library has been built in the city.
- Edit: Magellan's Voyage now requires flax, and that a Port has been built in the city.
- Edit: Great Lighthouse now requires that a Harbor has been built in the city.
- Edit: The Oracle now requires that a Shrine has been built in the city.
- Edit: Great Library now requires that a Library has been built in the city.
- Edit: Holy City requires Incense to be present within city radius.
- Edit: JS Bach's Cathedral and the Sistine Chapel now require Incense
- Edit: Nuclear Plant makes 2 Content citizens Unhappy.
- Edit: Factory, Manufacturing Plant, Coal Plant, Offshore Platform and Steel Mill now make 1 Content citizen Unhappy.
- Edit: Cathedral now requires Temple and Incense
- Edit: Forge now requires Iron
- Added Local History Museum Improvement, (Available with Marxism, gives +50% Science)
- Added Multi-Cultural Center Improvement, (Available with Civil Liberties, adds happiness)
- Added: High School Improvement (Available with Atomic Theory, gives +50% Science)
- Added: Airforce Base Improvement (Available with Flight, allows Veteran Air Units, Air Power)
- Edit: Airport no longer allows Veteran Air Units, cost decreased to 30, maint. decreased to 2
- Added National History Museum Small Wonder (Available with City Planning, adds science and happy people in city where built)
*Governments
- Edit: Reduced Draft Rate for most governments
- Edit: Changed Military Police Effect for most governments
- Edit: Changed Worker Rate for Despotism to 1 (was 2)
*Techs
- Edit: Socialism now requires Unionization and Civil Liberties
- Edit: Costs of all Industrial and Modern Techs have been reduced.
- Edit: Nationalism no longer enable trade embargoes (were already enabled by Trade)
- Edit: Magnetism no longer enables trade over Ocean tiles (was already enabled by Navigation)
- Future Tech cost increased to 600
- Advanced Warfare now also requires Stealth
- Plastics now also requires Ecology

Isak
Jun 16, 2002, 06:41 PM
It's here - get it at the site.

From version 0.47 to 0.75 - It's a small step for a mathematician but a giant leap for the DyP mod.

6 mb of files - so far only available as a single file patch.

A full one-file install will be available soon - and a site update is not too unlikely either - but now I must sleep... sorry.

Enjoy - and please don't find any bugs within the next 9 hours ;)

Exsanguination
Jun 16, 2002, 06:45 PM
mmm... I asked this before but don't think it got answered: Can you install Dyp and play it as a scenario rather than as a standard game? (meaning: if I choose to play a "new game", I'll play a standard, default civ3 game; if I wanted to do some Dyp, I'd choose "load scenario", and load it).

Kal-el
Jun 16, 2002, 06:50 PM
Unfortunately not at this time.

there is a mod utility out there that is supposed make it easy to switch between mods, and once the new Firaxis patch comes out that should be easier to do.

GIDustin
Jun 16, 2002, 11:46 PM
Also: Make sure you check out the Addons Page (http://civ3.bernskov.com/addon.asp) for my new Wonder Splash Images. A must have for all those unfamiliar with the effects of all wonders.

Kal-el: If any wonder effect changes, lemme know so I can make a patch for that.

GIDustin

Morbius
Jun 17, 2002, 04:31 AM
that sounds great :)

i hope the game doesnt crash anymore ... repeatedly :(
if it does i will inform isak and send him once again the important safe files.

Morbius
Jun 17, 2002, 04:31 AM
that sounds great :)

i hope the game doesnt crash anymore ... repeatedly :(
if it does i will inform isak and send him once again the important safe files.

bernskov
Jun 17, 2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Isak
It's here - get it at the site.

From version 0.47 to 0.75 -
Enjoy - and please don't find any bugs within the next 9 hours ;)

"Current version 0.4.7 - Last updated 13th May 2002"

Please correct this on the webpage

Isak
Jun 17, 2002, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by bernskov


"Current version 0.4.7 - Last updated 13th May 2002"

Please correct this on the webpage I know, I know ;) I will update it and release the full install tonight when I get back from work....

I need money too, you see :eek:

Isak
Jun 17, 2002, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by bernskov


"Current version 0.4.7 - Last updated 13th May 2002"

Please correct this on the webpage I know, I know ;) I will update it and release the full install tonight when I get back from work....

I need money too, you see :eek:

Morbius
Jun 17, 2002, 11:39 AM
some things that i noticed, some questions i have:

- skyscrapers still give +25% prod according to the civilopedia

- some governmental types are not described in the civilopedia

- the basilica is called shrine in the civilopedia

- the tribe unit is not described, too.

-the shaman unit cannot be build, only the missionary unit. perhaps because the shaman unit automatically 'upgrades' to the missionary unit?


umm -- im not complaining, just trying to be helpful :)

Kal-el
Jun 17, 2002, 12:27 PM
The civilopedia has yet to be completed. That is the next project on the list.

The Shaman can not be built after Masonry is discovered. The unit is only meant to help the AI that gets stuck in a bad starting position. It was a last minute addition and its properties are still under debate.

Morbius
Jun 17, 2002, 01:44 PM
okay, ic.
i think its a good idea, tho :)

Kal-el
Jun 17, 2002, 06:45 PM
Isak has updated the website with the latest edition of the mod. v0.76 which includes the fixed bic that now allows you to build the Shaman.

Hopefully there won't be any need to update for a while. :D

Morbius
Jun 18, 2002, 03:06 PM
okay, now you can build the shaman, but very soon the shaman will automatically upgrade to the missionary, thus forbidding most cities to build 'settler' units from then on.
this 'upgrade' is more like a curse, IMHO.
is this intended?

Morbius
Jun 18, 2002, 03:07 PM
argh -- lag.
sorry about this unnecessary post.

Kal-el
Jun 18, 2002, 03:18 PM
Morbius,

Your concerns are unfounded (this time ;)) only the religious civs build the Shaman, everybody else builds the Clan unit. The clan then upgrades to the settler at the same point that the Shaman upgrades to the Missionary.

The curse, as with all curses, was only in the mind.

Morbius
Jun 18, 2002, 03:41 PM
okay ...

i took the babylonians. there was no area with 3+ food around, but i played anyway because of the shaman unit.

i founded 2 or 3 more cities with the shaman unit because it only needs one food.
then i discovered masonry (i think) and suddenly i was no longer allowed to build the shaman unit.

i was only allowed to build the missionary, which i couldnt due to no 3+food area near any of my cities.

my expansion was therefore stopped.
not developing the tech would have been much, much better for me, as it replaced the shaman unit with the more food consuming missionary.
being able to build both would perhaps be better ... ?

thats what i meant. :)

Isak
Jun 18, 2002, 04:23 PM
Kal-El has already pointed out that a new patch has been made available at the DyP site, but there have also been other updates at the site - go check it out following the link in my signature.

Other updates:

Kal-Els world map has been updated with more horses and saltpeter.

RobOs Smiley resources have been updated to version 0.76

A spreadsheet with all data from the BIC has been added for (at least) easier reference - it is in the Addons section.

The Known Bugs list has been updated.

Edit: Specified the types of resources added in Kal-El's World Map

Isak
Jun 18, 2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Morbius
my expansion was therefore stopped.
not developing the tech would have been much, much better for me, as it replaced the shaman unit with the more food consuming missionary.
being able to build both would perhaps be better ... ? I understand your frustration, but this was in fact intended - we had to add the Shaman and Clan to give the AI a fair chance of establishing a few cities, and in order to avoid giving human players too much of an advantage we had to let the upgrade to Missionary/Settler be given by an early and useful tech - we chose Masonry. If we had picked a less useful tech it would be too easy for the human player to spread out all over the place before finally deciding to research this tech.

This way you have to carefully consider for how long you can live without the benefits of Masonry.

But note - the Shaman and Clan is currently only a workaround - if we are allowed to change the production of the center tile in a city with the next Firaxis patch, it is very likely the Shaman/Clan will be removed - though a few of the team members have already grown very fond of the little fellars :)

Kal-el
Jun 18, 2002, 04:35 PM
right, but now you know.

Clan and Shaman units FAQ:
Q. Why were the Clan and Shaman units added to the Mod?

A. Due to the increase in food consumption from 2 to 3 food per citizen, some of the AI were unable to grow beyond a city size 2 and were therefore unable to produce their first settler, limiting them to one city. To compensate for the AI's inability to select a decent starting location it was decided that a new 1 population settler unit was necessary.

Q. Why do the Clan and the Shaman, who only cost one population, "upgrade" to the Settler and the Missionary, who cost two population points?

A. Remember the Clan and the Shaman are there to help the AI get past the initial growth hurdle. This was the cornerstone of the units, and we tried to keep this goal in focus as we developed them for the mod. To this end they are not available very long. We wanted the game return to normal as soon as possible. Also although the Settler and the Missionary cost more in population they cost less in shields.

Q. Why did you choose Masonry?

A. This was the hardest decision to make regarding this unit and the one we spent the most time discussing. The main goal was to prevent the human player from taking advantage of these obviously very useful units while at the same time allowing enough time for a civ to build at least one of the units. To do this we needed to select a tech that was both useful yet not so significant that you would hurt yourself more by not aquiring it. Some other suggestions were Boatbuilding, Seafaring, Domestication and Iron Working. All were determined to be too far down the tech tree to prevent the human player from taking advantage of them.

Q. So how do I use these units?

A. The first and most important thing to remember is that food is of the utmost importance to your growth and expansion. Therefore, even if you can build a Clan or Shaman unit you should still try and settle in a location that will allow you to grow beyond size 2 because you will not be able to build them forever. Take advantage of the new units, but remember that you can't build the Pyramids, the Sphinx, or the Obelisk without Masonry. The Pyramids and Obelisk are keys to Rapid expansion and the Sphinx (aftter you build the Riddle of the Sphinx) increases the chance of Great Leaders appearing.

So, how do you use the new units? Carefully. You must choose your own adventure. How long can you hold off researching Masonry? Be careful, a friendly tribe may just reveal those secrets to you, spoiling your plans.

So now you really know. Any other questions? I know we added a lot to the latest version so I am sure there are other things that people want clarified.

jbrice78
Jun 18, 2002, 05:39 PM
I know that many people don't try and pllay a game with civ specific ablilites removed, but I tried it. To my suprise I could build the tribe, barb.war, and the barb.rider at the rate of one per turn. So I have made some adjustments to the bic file to correct this problem.

jbrice78
Jun 18, 2002, 05:48 PM
Sorry that last file didn't have the updated shaman info. This is the fully updated bic file.

Isak
Jun 18, 2002, 05:52 PM
:confused:

In DyP v.0.76 The Tribe is flagged as being unavailable to all civs and Barb.Rider and Barb.Warrior are flagged as being available to the Barbarian civ only......so I don't understand how you could build it.

Do you mean there is a bug in the mod or..?

Looking at your bic, the only thing I can see changed is that they are now part of the upgrade chain.

Please let me know...you know I hate a bug more than the next guy.. ;)

Edit:Ok - I think I get it now - didn't think disabling Civ Specific abilities would override the units set for Barbarians only, but then - Civ3 never seizes to amaze me ;)

Well it's a personal preference of course, but I can't really recommend disabling Civ Specific abilities, as this will also make all Trait Specific units available to all civs, making early progress a bit too easy IMHO - but I guess we will eventually have to think about this once Play The World is released. Thanks for spotting this. :goodjob:

jbrice78
Jun 18, 2002, 06:07 PM
Its not really a bug. When you play a game without civ attributes applied. All those rules making a unit civ specific become mute. So I made it impossible to build those unit. By, as you said making them upgrade to basic units.

cricket
Jun 18, 2002, 07:13 PM
Something very strange is going on with the Wonder splashes.

I build the Riddle of the Sphinx and I get the screen for the SDI wonder. I build the Taj Mahal I get the Theory of Evolution Splash.

Oracle and Chichenitza are fine.

And when I choose aerial view from the city screen I see the great lighthouse icon but it's actually a library and the shrine icon is the pentagon.

I am playing the world map (BTW :love: the map!) if that makes any difference.

Cricket

Isak
Jun 19, 2002, 01:06 AM
Wondersplashes - We made a last-minute rearranging of the buildings, and I forgot this meant I had to update the Pediaicons.txt :blush: - this will be fixed very soon. Thanks cricket :goodjob:

City View: It is currently not really possible to do anything about this - it's one of those Hardcoded Art issues we will need Firaxis to fix - Pesoloco is currently enquiring about it. Check outthis thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18807)

Jbrice: Yeah I figured it out after a bit of thinking :) I never played without the civ specific abilities on, so I had actually forgotten that the possibility exists. I'll check your bic tonight to see what the implications are if playing with civ specific abilities on.

Morbius
Jun 19, 2002, 01:30 AM
thanx alot, isak and kal-el, for clearifying the way the settler upgrades work and why.
finally i understand :)

i just wonder whether there will be enough time for the AI to build a shaman or clan unit in higher difficulty levels, since they research very fast in the beginning, it seems.

but hey, ill just play and see. and you tested it, so i wont speculate to much before actually experiencing problems :)

RobO
Jun 19, 2002, 02:10 AM
We did a few tests of the clan/shaman, and got acceptable results, but only time will tell if they work as intended.

Tell us if you have any problem, Morbius. <Hint> Isak loves to get those savegames </Hint>

GIDustin
Jun 19, 2002, 10:32 AM
if you re-arranged the the buildings, then you will (in addition to pediaicons.txt), need to re-arrange the buildings in the "buildings-large.pcx" and "buildings-small.pcx".

Have fun :p

GIDustin

Quiet Sound
Jun 19, 2002, 10:39 AM
Great mod. Glad I finally found one I like enough to keep.
I really liked the increase in food consumption and the requirement of getting a Middle Age tech to be able to irrigate.

I changed a lot of things in the official game, but your mod is very close to what I think Civ3 should have been from the begining. The only change I made in it was to suit my personal preferences for submarines, that is to make them an equivilent of the privateer.
I have no clue how realistic it is but I gave submarines a hidden nationality, the bombardment capability (think WW2 era subs with a deck gun), and the ability to transport 2 ground units, namely spies/secret agents. This way, if I'm feeling bored I can raid AI shipping and coastal cities. However, I have not yet seen the AI do the same, but then I've never seen the AI use submarines period.

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 03:14 AM
<Deleted>

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 03:14 AM
<Deleted>

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 03:15 AM
<Deleted>

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 03:16 AM
Here is an edited list of all the improvements and wonders. It's quite long :D
I hope it is pretty much self-explanatory. Happiness effects are this city / all cities

I can't post it - will try splitting it on two.


Palaces....................Cost Mnt Cult Happy Effects // Requirements
Palace......................100..2....2........Cen tre of empire, Vet Ground Units
Forbidden Palace............200..2....2........Less corruption, Vet Ground Units // 8 cities (std world)
Summer Palace.............. 240..2....2........Less Corruption, Vet ground units
Winter Palace.............. 280..2....2........Less Corruption, Vet ground units

Improvements.............. Cost Mnt Cult Happy Effects // Requirements
Academy.................... 100..2....1........+50%Sci // Library
Airforce Base.............. 400..4............ Air Def...Vet air units
Airport.................... 300..3............ Allow air trade
Amusement Park..............350..3....2.. 2/.. none
Aqueduct....................110..2............ Allow city size 2
Bank........................240..3............ +50%Tax // Marketplace
Barracks.................... 40..1............ Vet ground units
Basilica.................... 50..1....2.. 1/.. none
Bazaar......................200..1....1........+50 %Tax +50%Lux More happy faces from luxuries // Marketplace
Casino......................410..4....2.. 2/.. +50%Tax
Cathedral.................. 240..3....3.. 3/.. none // Temple, Incense
Coal Plant..................270..4...... -1/.. +50%Prod..Replaces any power plant // Factory,Coal
Coastal Fortress............ 60..1............ Naval Def...// Iron,Saltpeter,Coastal
Colosseum.................. 150..2....2.. 2/.. none
Computer Network............600..4............ +50%Sci
Courthouse..................100..3............ Resist propaganda,Less corruption
District Courthouse........ 320..4............ Less Corruption // 3 Courthouses, Near Water
Drug Store..................190..2........1/.. none
Electricity................ 300..1............ +25%Prod..Given to Creator of National Energy Grid
Factory.................... 420..4...... -1/.. +50%Prod..// Iron
Fishery.................... 180..2............ Plus 1 food water tiles // Harbor
Forge...................... 120..1............ +25%Prod..// Iron
Granary......................50..1............ 2x city growth
Guild Hall..................340..2....1........+50%Tax+2 5%Prod
Harbor...................... 20..1............ Plus 1 food water tiles // Coastal
High School................ 270..1............ +50%Sci
Hospital....................240..4....1.. 1/.. +25%Prod
Hydro Plant................ 480..5............ +50%Prod..Replaces any power plant // Factory,Needs river
Labor Union................ 430..4........1/.. +25%Prod..// Guildhall
Library......................90..3....3........+50 %Sci
Local History Museum........370..3....3........+50%Sci
Manufacturing Plant........ 800..4...... -1/.. +50%Prod..// Factory
Marketplace................ 110..2....1........+50%Tax +50%Lux
Mass Transit System........ 500..3............ No pop pollution // Rubber
Mill........................190..2............ +25%Prod..// Must be on River
Modern Farm................ 500..3............ +25%Prod..// Granary
Movie Palace................300..2....1.. 2/.. +50%Lux Less War Weariness
Multi-Cultural Center...... 340..2....2.. 2/.. none // Natives
Newspaper.................. 240..3............ Resist propaganda
Nuclear Plant.............. 600..6...... -2/.. +100%Prod..Replaces any power plant,Can explode // Factory,Uranium,Needs water
Obelisk......................50...... 1........Given to builder of Pyramids
Offshore Platform.......... 600..4...... -1/.. +1 shield water tiles // Coastal
Opera House................ 340..3....2.. 2/.. none
Park........................ 50..5....1.. 1/.. Reduces Bldg. Pollution
Performing Arts Center......550..2....3.. 2/.. none
Police Station..............270..2............ Less corruption,Less war weariness
Port........................ 40..1....1........+50%Tax Allow sea trade // Coastal, Harbor
Prison......................320..5............ Less Corruption // Courthouse
Radio Tower................ 320..3............ Resist Propaganda // Newspaper
Recycling Center............460..3............ Less building pollution
Research Lab................500..3....2........+50%Sci // University
SAM Missile Battery........ 190..4............ Air Def...// Aluminum
Sewer System................280..4............ Allow city size 3
Shipyard.................... 50..1............ Vet sea units // Timber, Coastal
Shrine...................... 20.......... 1/.. none
Skyscraper..................580..4....1........+50 %Tax +50%Lux
Slave Market................120..2...... -1/.. +25%Prod..// Natives
Solar Plant................ 800..4............ +50%Prod..Replaces any power plant // Factory
Steel Mill..................480..3...... -1/.. +50%Prod..// Forge
Stock Exchange..............250..4............ +50%Tax // Bank
Superhighways.............. 530..4............ +50%Tax +50%Lux
Supermarket................ 250..2........1/.. +50%Tax +50%Lux
Television Station..........420..3........2/.. none
Temple...................... 70..1....2.. 1/.. none // Incense
Theater......................80..1....2.. 1/.. none
Toll House.................. 40..1............ +50%Tax
Town Clock..................280..2............ +25%Prod
University..................300..4....4........+50 %Sci // Academy
Walls........................30..1............ Land Def.
Wind Farm.................. 600..3............ +50%Prod..// Wind Mill
Wind Mill.................. 200..2............ +25%Prod
Civil Liberties..................1........1/.. +25%Prod..Given to Creator of Civil Rights Movement // Civil Rights Movement
Genetic Tailoring..............................+25%Prod..G iven to creator of Human Genome Project // Human Genome Project
Wealth........................................ Capitalisation

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 03:17 AM
Must have hit a size restriction. here's the rest:


Wonders....................Cost Cult Happy Effects // Requirements
Arc De Triomphe............1000.. 3........Less War Weariness in all cities
Big Ben.................... 700.. 2........Free Town Clock in all cities
Chichen Itza................520.. 2........Free Courthouse in all cities on Continent // Natives, Obs: Juris Prudence
Circus Maximus..............280.. 5........Double effect of Colosseum // 4x Colosseum
Civil Rights Movement......1500.. 4.. 2/.. Free Civil Liberties all cities
The Colossus................200.. 3........+1 trade each trade producing tile in city // Copper, Coastal, Obs by: Flight
Copernicus's Observatory....560.. 4........+100%Sci // Library
Cure for Cancer............2300.. 3.. 2/2..none
Disneyland................ 1500..12..10/1..none
East India Company..........600.. 2........+50%Tax +50%Lux +1 ship movement,..// Port
Edison’s Workshop..........1300.. 3........+100%Sci
Eiffel Tower.............. 1000.. 4.. 2/1..Reduces Propaganda
Emancipation Proclamation..1200.. 3..../2..Makes obsolete Slave Markets
Empire State Building......1250.. 3........+50%Tax +50%Lux..+1 Trade in each trade producing tile // 5x Skyscraper
Energy Grid................1700.. 2..../1..Puts Electricty Improvement in all cities // 5x Factory, Copper
Great Buddha................700.. 6........Double effect of Temple
The Great Library.......... 400.. 6........Gain any tech owned by 2 civs // Library, Obs by: Education
The Great Lighthouse........390.. 2........Safe sea travel,+1 ship movement // Harbor, Coastal,Obs by: Magnetism
Great Opera House..........1300..10.. 4/1..none
The Great Wall..............200.. 2........2x strength vs barbarians,2x city defense // Obs by: Military Tradition
Gutenberg’s Bible.......... 600.. 3..../1..+50%Sci
The Hanging Gardens........ 390.. 4.. 3/1..Continental mood effect // Obs by: Steam Power
Hollywood..................1050..10.. 2/.. +50%Lux Less War Weariness in all cities, Free Movie Palace All cities
Hoover Dam................ 1500.. 2........Free Hydro Plant all cities on continent // Needs river
Human Genome Project...... 2500.. 3........Free Geneetic Tailoring all cities // Research Lab
JS Bach's Cathedral........ 840.. 6.. 2/2..Continental mood effects // Incense
Las Vegas..................1400.. 8.. 2/1..+50%Tax +50%Lux..+1 Trade in each trade producing tile // 4x Casino
Leonardo's Workshop........ 840.. 2........Halves unit upgrade cost
Longevity..................2400.. 3........City growth is 2 citizens instead of 1
Magellan's Voyage.......... 600.. 3........+1 ship movement // Port, Flax, Coastal
The Manhattan Project......1750.. 2........All civs can build nucs // Atomic Wpns Test, Uranium
Newton's University........ 600.. 6........+100%Sci // University
The Oracle..................320.. 4........Give Shrine in Each city // Shrine, Obs by: Theology
The Pyramids................320.. 4........Free Obelisk in all cities // Natives
SETI program.............. 2200.. 3........+100%Sci // Research Lab
Shakespeare's Theater...... 560.. 8.. 8/.. none
Sistine Chapel..............840.. 6........2x happiness from Cathedral // Incense
Smith's Trading Company.... 900.. 3........Pays maint for trade bldgs // Bazaar
The Sphinx..................320.. 3........Less War Weariness in all cities, Allows..Riddle of the Sphinx
Spirit of Saint Louis......1100.. 2..../1..+50%Lux..+1 Trade in each trade producing tile, +1 ship movement
Statue of Liberty..........1000.. 4........Less War Weariness in all cities
Stonehenge..................400.. 2........Free Grananry in all cities
Sun Tzu's Art of War........840.. 2........Free Barracks all cities on continent // Barracks
Supreme Court.............. 450.. 1........Less Corruption // 3x District Courthouse
Taj Mahal.................. 240.. 6.. 2/1..none
Theory of Evolution........ 960.. 3........2 free advances // University
The United Nations........ 2000.. 4........Allows diplomatic victory
Universal Suffrage........ 1600.. 4........Less war weariness all cities
World News Network..........600.. 2........Less Propaganda, Newspaper in all cities // 5xTelevision Station
World Wide Web............ 1800.. 2........+100%Sci Gain any advances owned by 2 civs // The Internet

Small Wonders..............Cost Mnt Cult Happy Effects // Requirements
Apollo Program............ 1150...... 2........Build spaceship // Aluminum
Atomic Weapons Test........1250...... 1........Required for Manhattan Project // Uranium
Battlefield Medicine........800...... 1........Healing in enemy territory // 3x Hospital
Central Bank................600...... 1........+50%Tax Treasury earns 5% // 5x Bank
E-Bank.................... 1000...... 2........Treasury earns 5%
Heroic Epic................ 200...... 4........Leaders More Likely
Holy City.................. 280...... 5.. 2/.. Less Corruption in that City // Incense (must be in city), Temple
Intelligence Agency........ 900...... 1........Allow spying
The Internet................800...... 2..../1..+50%Tax +50%Sci +50%Lux // 5x Computer Network
Iron Works..................500...... 2........+100%Prod..// Iron,Coal (must be in city)
Military Academy............640...... 1........Armies without leader // Victorious army
National Constitution...... 450...... 2........Less Corruption
National Gallery............600...... 4..../1..Leaders More Likely
National Health Care........450...... 1.. 2/2..none // 5x Hospital
National History Museum.... 900...... 4.. 2/.. +50%Sci // 3x Local History Museums
National Library............420...... 4..../1..+50%Sci Leaders More Likely // 3 universities
National Monument.......... 600...... 4........Leaders More Likely, Less War Weariness
National Sports League......540...... 3..../1..Less War Weariness // 5x Colosseum
The Pentagon................800...... 1........Larger armies // 3 armies
Riddle of the Sphinx.......................... Leaders More Likely // The Sphinx
Strategic Missile Defense..1200...... 1........Missile attack success down 75% // 5x SAM Missile Battery
Wall Street................ 500...... 2........Treasury earns 5% // 3xStock Exchange
War Memorial................600...... 3........Leaders More Likely // Victorious Army

Spaceship Parts............Cost Requirements
SS Cockpit..................640 Aluminum
SS Docking Bay..............340 Aluminum
SS Engine..................1200 Aluminum
SS Exterior Casing..........800 Aluminum,Rubber
SS Fuel Cells.............. 320 Uranium
SS Life Support System......640 Aluminum
SS Planetary Party Lounge.. 320 Aluminum
SS Stasis Chamber.......... 640 Aluminum
SS Storage/Supply.......... 300 Aluminum
SS Thrusters................640 Aluminum

Morbius
Jun 20, 2002, 07:54 AM
thx alot, thats very interesting.

RobO
Jun 20, 2002, 10:10 AM
Good. And if you stumble over any discrepancies between this and the bic, do let us know.

bernskov
Jun 21, 2002, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by RobO
Here is an edited list of all the improvements and wonders. It's quite long :D
I hope it is pretty much self-explanatory. Happiness effects are this city / all cities

I can't post it - will try splitting it on two.



Could either you or Isak post this on the webserver given that it is quite vital information

WhteDrgn
Jun 21, 2002, 01:57 PM
Great mod, noticed a small bug though.

a) You have default captured unit set to Colonist, which is fairly advanced for an empire to recieve if they capture a worker/settler type unit before they develop colonist.

b) Because of the build city capabilities added to the advanced workers (like Colonist), capturing one results in the party getting two units. So if the enemy empire recaptures the two colonists, they suddenly have 4, where there was only 1 to begin with.

You might just bypass this all be adding in some sort of prisoner unit that becomes the default, so that re-capturing that unit, doesn't mushroom the buildable colonists in game.

Kal-el
Jun 21, 2002, 02:03 PM
actually that is a mistake. it should still be set to worker. thanks for spotting that. I had noticed it but was not thinking clearly and was trying to figure out why the units were converting to colonists. Thanks for pointing out where I was going wrong.

GIDustin
Jun 21, 2002, 02:05 PM
RobO:

I saw your post regarding the extra experience level. Did his advice work? Did script.txt fix that problem?

Just curious as I may add a level to my mod.

GIDustin

Isak
Jun 21, 2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by WhteDrgn
Great mod, noticed a small bug though. :blush::blush::blush:
I would like to join in the chorus - thanks for pointing this out - it will be fixed in the next patch, which is bound to be coming out real soon... unless you all keep up finding bugs, that is ;)
...the time we've spent trying to figure this out...sheesh....I'm going to bed.....

Morbius
Jun 21, 2002, 05:08 PM
i might have found a bug as well.
i was able to build 'electricity' (at least it appeared in the list), tho i didnt build the -- umm -- energy grid (was that the name?).
i didnt build the small wonder that might be necessary according to the civilopedia before you should be able to build elecrticity.

Isak
Jun 21, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Morbius
i might have found a bug as well. Sorry this may be missing from the documentation, but we changed Electricity so it can now be built by everyone - seemed a bit unlikely only one civ was ever going to have electricity.

It is still granted for free when you build the Energy Grid (that is the name alright ;) )

RobO
Jun 22, 2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by GIDustin
RobO:

I saw your post regarding the extra experience level. Did his advice work? Did script.txt fix that problem?

Just curious as I may add a level to my mod.

GIDustin

Check this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=341016#post341016

Morbius
Jun 22, 2002, 01:56 PM
alright :)
but now i might have found a bug. :)

the first tank, the tank that you get before you discovered mobile warfare, i think -- that tank has the graphics of a 'leader'. not on the map, but in the build list for example. and at the military advisor list too, i think.

another one:

after clicking on jeep in the building list, the jeep icon in the lower right, just above the number of shields needed and already gathered, the jeep icon looks kinda blurred. its sort of a graphical problem -- at least on my computer.

Kal-el
Jun 22, 2002, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Morbius
alright :)
but now i might have found a bug. :)

the first tank, the tank that you get before you discovered mobile warfare, i think -- that tank has the graphics of a 'leader'. not on the map, but in the build list for example. and at the military advisor list too, i think.


I will take a look at this. It is a units_32 issue.

Isak
Jun 22, 2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el


I will take a look at this. It is a units_32 issue. Don't worry Fearless Leader, I have fixed it already :) Thanks for spotting it Morbius - now remember to play the game once in a while too ;)
For all you who like to manually patch your DyP mod, just change the Icon for the Tank to #74 in the BIC.

Greeko
Jun 23, 2002, 12:00 AM
The mod sounds wonderful. Its great what you are doing to this marvelous game. i will tell you of any bugs i find.

Morbius
Jun 23, 2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Isak
now remember to play the game once in a while too ;)


i discovered the bug while playing the game, dont worry :)

another bug:

i think it was the radar station that also looked like some kinda leader in the build list.

sjeng
Jun 24, 2002, 12:14 AM
Haya,

The new version looks good, but some of the bugs here sound very familiar :)
btw, the crossbowman is still the untransparent version in the city screen where you can select what to build. The image is actual larger as the button that he is on :)
I got the idea that cities are revolting sooner with the new version. Is that coincidence (or my illusion) or is that really the case?

Grtnx

Morbius
Jun 24, 2002, 04:52 AM
mine never revolted :P

RobO
Jun 24, 2002, 05:04 AM
sjeng, I think your are imagining things. Not the revolts ofc. :D but the change in frequency. The MP limits were changed, but I'm pretty sure it was increased for Despotism.

shirleyrocks
Jun 24, 2002, 11:58 PM
Hi guys...incredible mod. I just downloaded it tonight. The scope is amazing. It's an entirely different game. Congratulations on all your work. I have found a couple of bugs I thought I'd point out...

1) A Japanese archer attacks and captures my American settler. The settler changes into 2 Japanese colonists. I then attack and capture these Japanese colonists with a horseman. Each colonist changes into 2 more colonists. The end result of the original American settler...4 American colonists.

2) Civilopedia error...'Marble' is stated as a prerequisite in the Basilica entry. It appears as though you have previously removed Marble from the game.

Thanks again for all your work. I'm having a great time playing!

sjeng
Jun 25, 2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by RobO
but I'm pretty sure it was increased for Despotism.
Hmmmm, the cities revolted in the beginning, when I had depotism and couldn't built anything to keep them quit. :nya:
Well, If I notice a structural behaviour, I'll let you know

RobO
Jun 25, 2002, 01:30 AM
shirleyrocks, the colonist issue has been solved and will be fixed in the next patch - which is due at the whim of Isak, our release manager. You'll find a workaround on the previous page (basically, change the captured unit to Worker in the general setings).

Isak is also busy with the Civilopedia (when he's not busy with other important stuff, like squashing bugs or watching the World Cup), and he might be able to tell you when it's ready for publishing.

Isak
Jun 25, 2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by RobO
will be fixed in the next patch - which is due at the whim of Isak, our release manager. Now this is entirely untrue - I have a very solid deadline, which was last friday, so now I'm only waiting for a Time Warp to take me back there ("..it's just a step to the left....") ;)

No, seriously, we have just added in some more units, and I'm almost finished with the Building effects in the civilopedia (which are my top-priority at the moment) so it won't be long, trust me..:)

Nder
Jun 25, 2002, 10:29 AM
This is a really cool mod.

Kal-el
Jun 25, 2002, 11:01 AM
we have added animations for the Champion (formerly known as the Brave, more to come on the name change later) and changed the animation for the Samurai. The original Samurai animations will now be used for the 'Bushi' which is just a color unit for the Asian civs so that they are not building European Longsworsmen. The Bushi has the same stats, etc. as the Longswordsmen. He is the first of many color units that will eventually be added to the mod, but first we'll try and work the bugs out of the thing.

Known issues in 0.76:
Default Captured unit is Colonist - Should be Worker - Fixed
Warrior Does not Upgrade to Swordsman - Fixed
Legionary Does not Upgrade to Swordsman - Fixed
Civilopedia errors, too many to count - on going project :D

WhteDrgn
Jun 25, 2002, 12:34 PM
Hmm, just noticed something. This would probably be classed a civilopedia error, but if not, it might need fixing the other way.

Holy City small wonder, with the currect version of the mod, requires an incense within the city radius in order to be built. (Similar to un-moded Iron Works). The Pedia just lists it requiring a temple, and incense in general, not exactly within the city radius.

So, clarification?

Kal-el
Jun 25, 2002, 12:34 PM
Needs it within city Radius.

Kal-el
Jun 26, 2002, 11:40 AM
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/colonial_musketman.jpg

Ok everybody, I just posted a new unit request on the main creation forum. I need you all to go here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25822) and add your 2 cents to my request. The more people voice their desire for the unit the more likely somebody will pick it up and run with it. At least that is what I am hoping.

This guy would be used for the Musketman instead of having to double up with the Arquebusier animations. I think we would all like to see fewer units sharing animations. I know I would.

Hawk2112
Jun 26, 2002, 12:49 PM
Some time ago I had posted that I was having major speed issues with DyP and Windoze XP. Since the release of the .76, I'm back to my usual warp speed with my rediculously large maps :crazyeye: That, and installing the latest Beta Detonator drivers for my GeForce seem to have solved all problems. I dunno what caused the slow down to begin with, but I am a firm believer in a very philosophical method of dealing with this. If it ain't broke, I ain't gonna try to fix it! :mwaha:

sjeng
Jun 27, 2002, 12:10 AM
Kal-el, , I humbly served as you requested, great leader :frog: I hope the units will be added soon.
I looked at the possibility to create a unit myself, but concluded that there was no way I could learn to do that in the available time ( besides my artistic incapabilities :D )

Ave

Armand Enshalar
Jun 27, 2002, 07:59 AM
I installed DYP but the Tech tree is messed up. I reinstalled CIV3 and patch but hadn't had the time to try DYP again, what do I do wrong?

Isak
Jun 27, 2002, 01:30 PM
Armand: Did you start it as a scenario? That would mess up the tech tree - just start it as a new game, and the tech tree is perfect (at least we think it is at the moment :) )

Ganja
Jun 29, 2002, 09:01 AM
Firstly - I have upped the thread in the strategy section, so anyone playing this mod who has some useful strategy tips please post.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23380

Secondly - Is an new update expected anytime soon? I'm moved to a new city soon and wont have the internet for a while so I'll be relying on Civ3 and this mod to occupy some of my time. Hopefully a new update will be released soon for me to download fixing a few of the newly found bugs. :)

Thanks for making this game more challenging

Kal-el
Jun 29, 2002, 10:20 AM
A new update should be out soon. Isak is trying to finish the game play section of the civilopedia entries before we release the next patch. the biggest change to the bic will be changing the default captured unit to the worker instead of the colonist. other than that it is mostly aesthetics.

KKJ
Jun 30, 2002, 02:43 AM
I made it! I've read through all 43 pages of this thread! It has been quite interesting to read but I have one question that I've haven't been able to find an answer to:

Does this thing work for the Macintosh version of Civ 3 as well?

I hope you forgive me if this is a very stupid question. My only excuse is that my ordered copy of Civ 3 hasn't arrived yet (it was supposed to drop into my mailbox 3 weeks ago :mad: ).

RobO
Jun 30, 2002, 06:53 AM
I don't think any of the people working on the mod uses a Mac. But I don't see why not. Anybody tried it?

RobO
Jun 30, 2002, 07:04 AM
Have you ever wondered when or why you should build Gutenbergs Bible? Or just what the difference between Harbor, Port and Shipyard is? Or wether there is a difference between toll house, marketplace and Bazaar?

RobO's annotated build queue is the answer to your problems :D

I have annotated the build queue for improvements/wonders. I have managed to cram a lot of useful information into very little space without cluttering the picture. I have shown the general effect in addition to culture, maintenance and pollution and have also marked those builds that are prerequisites for others.

The info is designed to provide an overview, not show all details. This suites my style of play. Yours may differ ofc.

It is compatible with 0.77 (which you donøt have yet :crazyeye: ) but also works fine for 0.75 and 0.76 as the differences are minimal.

Sorry, no screenshot yet but you will get one eventually.

RobO
Jun 30, 2002, 02:22 PM
I can't seem to edit the previous post :mad:

Anyway, here are some shots:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_01.jpg http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_02.jpg http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_03.jpg

Greeko
Jun 30, 2002, 03:22 PM
REQUEST: Can you make the blast radius of the Nuclear Missles/ICBM'S bigger? (maybe make it 5 by 5 blast radius instead of 3 by 3?)

Morbius
Jun 30, 2002, 04:39 PM
RobO, the idea is pretty good.

kingjoshi
Jun 30, 2002, 10:38 PM
I don't know if it's a bug, but when Santa Barbara had a population of 3, there was still a "We love the Chief" day Celebration. I thought the city size had to be at least 5 :confused:

kingjoshi
Jun 30, 2002, 10:46 PM
RobO,

I like the idea, but I have to get used to all the symbols. Personally, something like Nemo's units and building list works for me. But obviously not compatible with the Mod so this is well appreciated :)

sjeng
Jul 01, 2002, 12:23 AM
The mod is great, but I noticed that the holes between historical units is filled. Perhaps it is a good idea to put more units behind the current ones; future warfare :D
I looked at the possibility to make my own units, but without succes; I don't seem to have a talent for it. But i was thinking about bizarre things like a hoovercrafted stealth tank etc :)

RobO
Jul 01, 2002, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by kingjoshi
RobO,

I like the idea, but I have to get used to all the symbols. Personally, something like Nemo's units and building list works for me. But obviously not compatible with the Mod so this is well appreciated :)

Kingjoshi, I obviously made the mod to suit my own taste. I'm not adverse to accepting suggestions, however.

Some of the symbols are intuitive, some are not. I might eventually get to copying some symbols from the city icon pcx file and downsizing them, but I have an annoying paint problem: When I paste a selection from one file to another, the selection is modified. I don't know why, but then I'm not a paint wizard. I'll try to find a way around it.

Isak
Jul 01, 2002, 05:16 PM
Well, what a surprise - we actually beat Firaxis to it.... yes it's true. this means:
Version 0.77 is out !!!
as always, get hold of your copy at the DyP website (http://civ3.bernskov.com)

Changelog for version 0.77:
- Edit: Horseman now upgrades to Knight.
- Edit: Spy now has no resource requirements but cost 70 shields.
- Fixed: Furs no longer use Olive Oil icon in City Screen Luxuries box.
- Edit: High School now gives 2 culture (was: 0)
- Edit: Naval mine is now mobile and can be used to actively attack
- Fixed: Naval Mine and Land Mine no longer have bombard capabilities (this was an error)
- Edit: Civilopedia effects descriptions for Improvements (buildings and wonders) are now supposed to be correct ;-)
- Edit: Elephant Rider now has new animations
- Edit: Barbarian Warrior has been renamed Barbarian Raider and can now make amphibious assault.
- Edit: Attack value for the Chariot has been lowered to 1.
- Edit: The cost of an Egyptian War Chariot has risen to 30 shields.
- Edit: The Archer now has new animations.
- Edit: The Ranger now uses the original Archer animations.
- Edit: Samurai unit now has attack of 7
- Edit: The Japanese can no longer build Knights
- Fixed: Rome can now build Longswordsmen (this was a bug in 0.7.6)
- Edit: Longswordsman is no longer available to Babylon, China, India, Japan and Persia
- Added: Bushi unit - same stats as longswordsman - available to Babylon, China, India, Persia and Japan - using the animations for the original Samurai
- Edit: The Samurai now uses different animations
- Edit: The Brave unit has been renamed to Champion.
- FIXED: Purple square around resources has been fixed
- Added: Unit Graphics for Humvee, Steam Frigate, Trireme
- Edit: Workers now upgrade to Serf's (to fix upgrade chain)
- Edit: Clan now upgrades to Settler
- Edit: Shaman now upgrades to Missionary
- Edit: Swordsmen now upgrade to Legionary
- Edit: When you capture an enemy unit, it will now be a Worker, not a Colonist

Morbius
Jul 02, 2002, 03:53 AM
great job :)

the civilopedia entry for the missionary is a little messed up, though.

Isak
Jul 02, 2002, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Morbius
great job :)

the civilopedia entry for the missionary is a little messed up, though. lol

...and probably most other units too.. ;)

Sorry, but I have only gotten around to finish the Improvements and Wonders, but Units are next in my list of Civilopedia priorities.

RobO
Jul 02, 2002, 06:19 AM
The reference sheet is now available on The DyP website (http://civ3.bernskov.com/) in a version that is compatible with v0.77

Be aware that the download of the previous version also stated that it was for v0.77 - it wasn't. This one is :)

Morbius
Jul 02, 2002, 07:38 AM
isak, i should have read properly. my fault -- hehe :)

WhteDrgn
Jul 02, 2002, 11:52 AM
Um, hehe... Good job, one little thing, yep Furs no longer use the Olive Oil in the screen, but somehow, probably accidently, Olive Oil now uses the Fur Icon on the main map, and Fur uses the Olive Oil :) Quick and easy fix for those who edit their own .bic file... just change the Olive Oil Icon from 14 to 21, and Fur to 14 from 21.

RobO
Jul 02, 2002, 01:43 PM
have updated my annotated build queue with graphical icons instead of the letters I used previously. I'm really pleased with the result, but I'm still not quite satisfied with a few of the icons. Suggestions are very much appreciated.

I would like to update the following:
- The food (growth) icon doesn't look quite right to me.
- I lack a good icon for espionage/diplomat effects (including propaganda reduction) - currently I'm using Y.
- The expansion icon (+) could probably be improved, but I'm not quite sure how.

I have no need to change the $ and V icons.

buildings_small.pcx has a somewhat restricted colour selection in the pallette (I haven't tried to change it, I'm not sure if that has any sideeffects), and the icons need to be 5-6 pixels wide and up to ca. 7 high.

Screenshots:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_04.jpghttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_05.jpg http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_06.jpg http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Annotated_Dyp_07.jpg

Isak
Jul 02, 2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by WhteDrgn
Furs no longer use the Olive Oil in the screen, but somehow, probably accidently, Olive Oil now uses the Fur Icon on the main map, and Fur uses the Olive Oil :)Bloody H***...... I thought I had fixed this again, but I guess I was wrong - oh well, another update in the near future wasn't too unlikely anyway.

For now, just fix it like WhteDrgn says - thanks for the tip, btw. :goodjob:

Morbius
Jul 02, 2002, 05:47 PM
i think i experienced a weird thing:

one of my cities without any connection to the mainland had been build on ore. it had therefore access to ore and could build pikemen.
the rest of my realm that also had 2 or 3 other sources of ore (connected with roads) allegdly had no access -- no pikes.
not until i established a road to the isolated cities, then i could build pikes everywhere ...

... im confused.

sumthinelse
Jul 03, 2002, 01:59 AM
If I install DyP will current saved games work? And if I use my original civ3mod.bic, will games and scenarios start the same (so I will still be able to play GOTM for example)?

RobO
Jul 03, 2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by sumthinelse
If I install DyP will current saved games work? And if I use my original civ3mod.bic, will games and scenarios start the same (so I will still be able to play GOTM for example)?
Sorry, no to both. Too many changes.
You need to be able to switch the data files (Art and Text directories IIRC) btw. the original install and DyP, as well as civ3mod.bic. It can be done by a simple, but tedious, copy/rename exercise if you have the disk space.
I don't think the mod manager works - I haven't tried it myself but I seem to recall someone else did so. I have no need - I only play DyP :)
I think Kingjoshi made a rudimentary mod changer that did the job, but I don't have it here. I haven't used that one either :(

Isak
Jul 03, 2002, 02:28 AM
Hello sumthinelse - glad to see RobO's little PR trick worked :D

Generally, since all rules are now stored in the save-file your games would still be playable, but the graphics would be mixed-up. There are a few ways to make sure you have a back-up, so you can always go back and forth between different Mods (if the original game can be called a Mod, that is)

1. One way is to copy your entire CIV3 directory to another location so you have that as back-up. Once you want to switch back you can either delete the civ3 dir and then copy your back-up to that location (or edit the registry key in HKEY_Local_Machine\Software\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III to switch between the two directories where you now have Civ3 installed. The key is called "Install_Path".)

2. A lot more user-friendly way, is to use Kingjoshi's Mod Manager (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24447) which will automatically make back-ups and help you switch back and forth between different "versions" of the game. I highly recommend this (yes, another PR trick, but it's okay, I think, as no-one is making any money ;) )

And if you have any problems (that goes for all of you) just send me an email at isak@privat.dk and I'll take a look at it once the kid has been tucked in ...:) If you have probs with the Mod Manager, Kingjoshi would probably be a safer bet to contact for help, though.

Edit: Darn, RobO beat me to it..... :o

sumthinelse
Jul 03, 2002, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Isak
Hello sumthinelse - glad to see RobO's little PR trick worked :D


2. A lot more user-friendly way, is to use Kingjoshi's Mod Manager (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24447) which will automatically make back-ups and help you switch back and forth between different "versions" of the game. I highly recommend this (yes, another PR trick, but it's okay, I think, as no-one is making any money ;) )


Edit: Darn, RobO beat me to it..... :o

Yes, I don't mind xcopying the civ3 tree. What I really want is to be able keep both trees and to start the .exe in either one. Will the Mod Manager allow me to start either one without copying files or changing the registry every time I want to switch?

I don't really play GOTM. I just want to be able to exchange saved games with other players without getting strange results, either from me playing their games or they playing mine.

Isak
Jul 03, 2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by sumthinelse


Yes, I don't mind xcopying the civ3 tree. What I really want is to be able keep both trees and to start the .exe in either one. Will the Mod Manager allow me to start either one without copying files or changing the registry every time I want to switch?
Not really, but it will back-up all files that will be overwritten by the Mod you install - and once you wish to switch back, all you need to do is open the Mod Manager again, and revert the original files. It really is rather easy, and hasn't given me any bugs yet.

kingjoshi
Jul 03, 2002, 12:18 PM
I'm updating my program again. It now allows for a validation process which checks to see if the all the files that were installed with the mod are still there. I'm also going to add a "Check Compatibility" feature that allows you to compare two mods and see what files are duplicates. The extension of that would be to keep track of all the mods installed and then to check the compatibility of any single mod with all the ones installed so far. I got the ideas off of Civ3ModLoader, but that program didn't work for me either.

sumthinelse:
The only ways I can think of which would allow to switch between mods are:

1) two different complete Civ3 folders.

2) install and uninstall mods right before playing.

If you did the first one, you could create a batch file that changes the windows registry and then starts Civ3.exe. That's the only way I can think of that would make is a simple process with this method.

If you did the second method, you would just go through the process of moving the files again and again. As long as they're on the same drive, that shouldn't be a problem because the files themselves shouldn't be moved, but only the location in the windows' filesystem.

If you can think of a better or different way, then I would consider implementing it. let me know.

RobO
Jul 03, 2002, 12:51 PM
How about having two different Civ3 folders and renaming one or both (if necessary) before starting Civ3? Effectively, you would install, patch, copy and then install the mod.

kingjoshi
Jul 03, 2002, 01:12 PM
yeah, that works :)

Thinking about too many things at once and the simple things can escape your mind, or you think about it and forget it real quickly and it gets replaced by other stuff. geesh.

Higher Game
Jul 05, 2002, 02:59 AM
I just finished my first DyP game. I was wiped out before the industrial ages. :(

I think the Aztec warrior needs a little nerfing. Otherwise, the game seems very balanced. But I was wondering how you could play mods in multiplayer. How can you do this?

And a suggestion for leader rushing, which is too powerful for the more expensive wonders. Why not make the leader worth 1000 shields, so he will give 200 shields when disbanded? I would also think 1000 shields should be a good price for the commercial merchant. What do you think?

RobO
Jul 05, 2002, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Higher Game
Why not make the leader worth 1000 shields, so he will give 200 shields when disbanded?

That's a good suggestion, but is it really possible? Would it allow you to build leaders? But then I can't imagine why you would want to build them.

medwynn
Jul 05, 2002, 09:11 AM
Stunning!

I've just downloaded v0.77 and am currently somewhere in the 1300's. I just :love: the early struggles to find food and resources - I've always felt that the early game is too neglected, with time flying by and nothing achieved. Now there's a sense of satisfaction in getting a city up and running.

I also noticed the furs/olive oil problem, but I see I've been beaten to reporting that one!

Great work guys - Keep it going! :goodjob: :beer:

kingjoshi
Jul 05, 2002, 09:18 AM
Higher Game:

I've also thought about the shield and production issue. The caravan and merchants are expensive because they can hurry ANYTHING. I would like a unit that I can build that takes a lot of shields and would be basically used for transfering production. Especially with a lot of movement.

But there are so many units already in the game and you can still build many small units and continue to transfer them. The only way to speed up a wonder is to hurry the whole thing, which I think is a flaw in the game. So, though the current situation with the Mod is not ideal, it is adequate and still better than the way Civ3 was shipped.

Just by thoughts... :)

Kal-el
Jul 05, 2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Higher Game
And a suggestion for leader rushing, which is too powerful for the more expensive wonders. Why not make the leader worth 1000 shields, so he will give 200 shields when disbanded? I would also think 1000 shields should be a good price for the commercial merchant. What do you think?

That is a great idea, but ...

If I understand you, you are suggesting that leaders no longer have the finish improvement flag ticked.

Assuming that is true, I don't think it will work because in doing that the AI Strategy "Leader" flag is lost so the AI will probably have no idea what to do with the thing. Of course they probably don't know what to do with the Merchant line of units either. It would be an interesting experiment. Would you be willing to test your theory and let me know if you see the AI using the leaders properly? If it works I would be willing to consider it. Though 200 shields won't buy anything nowadays. I would probably make them cost even more, and of course they would not be buildable by any civ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medwynn,

Glad you like the mod. Keep on playing. Have you played it on the Earth Map? I need some more feedback on that, specificaly with resource placement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking of the Map. I noticed an error in timber placement. there wasn't any in Eastern Asia. So I fixed that and posted a new version on the maps forum. I also made Greenland even less hospitable. It hasn't been updated on the website yet, but I am sure Isak is working on it. :D (among other things)

konrai
Jul 05, 2002, 11:55 AM
I am haveing a problem with playing this mod admitidly i am still a newby at this but i downloaded al the bits and put them together but all i can get into is the startup screen. I have no idea what i am doing wrong i would really love to play this as i looks really neat but i need some help anyone got any idea?
Thanks

RobO
Jul 05, 2002, 01:13 PM
This is more Isaks line of business, but i can give it try.
Are you trying to play is as a scenario? You're suppsoed to play is as if it was the original game, not as a scenario.

kingjoshi
Jul 05, 2002, 05:54 PM
Hey Konrai, you can check out my ModManager program and see if that helps any. but if you copied over everything and started a new game, I can't see what the problem might be.

The thread is at: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24447

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 01:37 AM
Or check out the (very short) troubleshooting guide (http://civ3.bernskov.com/installguide.asp) at the bottom of the install section on the DyP Site.

If that doesn't help, just send me an email, and I'll look into it. :)

1297ad
Jul 06, 2002, 03:01 AM
Does anyone have any strategy tips for this mod? It's totally awesome, seemed to work great, but only played it a few hrs...the learning curve is steep!:king: It's like playing a different game, altogether...w/o a manual...:cry:

RobO
Jul 06, 2002, 03:24 AM
1297ad, you can find some startup tips here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=23380&goto=newpost

It's not a lot, but the startup phase is probably the most difficult one to get used to, as it's very different from the original game.

Higher Game
Jul 06, 2002, 05:05 AM
Just finished my second game of DyP. It kinda burned out by the Industrial Ages, and I think I know why. It was the AI's production.

I played builder style to get used to the mod. The AI gets extremely weak after the middle ages, where it is at its peak. The AI apparently doesn't go crazy with the production type buildings like I did.

The issue is that the modern military units are very expensive. The AI focuses on making its army before production, but it progresses slowly because it has low production anyway.

Apparently, all of the new productive buildings are in DyP because you are now forced to irrigate grassland. However, you can't take full advantage of hills or forests until you get railroads or the 2nd sea improvement, forgot its name. This really restricts production, and you can see its impact in the middle ages.

However, I took advantage of the high trade and rushed built all of the necessary productive buildings after hitting economics. The AI doesn't do this. As a result, I went from the 3rd place civ to controlling half of the world in 2 or 3 dozen turns. They just couldn't keep up with me!

I would suggest making the productive buildings cheaper and the bonuses higher. I mean, just look at the guild hall! Or the skyscraper. Or the mill and wind mill. Or the slave market. Then the factory and coal plant. With low production, you are forced to rush this stuff, but the AI doesn't. The translates into a tremendoes late game edge.

Also, while combat is balanced early on, "super units" hurt the game a bit. I fought 1 AI with only 3 dragoons against about 20 of mine. As I said earlier, stuff is too expensive!

Tech progression is perfect in regent. You actually are in the industrial ages at about its real time. However, the increased cost of stuff makes it difficult to take advantage of it. The game plays a little more smoothly in monarch+ because the AI shares techs liberally. In regent, I was using armor and infantry before Germany discovered knights!

As for buildings, I like the idea of the obelisk and cultural buildings, although cultural victory becomes too easy to get. I do not like the idea of a maintenence free temple that requires no resources and only needs 10 production. Ahhhhh!!! The barbarian rider should be 3/3/2. An attack of 4 is too steep.

Government types are screwed up. I have to be honest. Egalitarisnism, needed for Democracy, is too important. I mean, you even get some military support and police benefits in Democracy!

Workers work far too slowly in Despotism and too quickly in Democracy. Social Democracy is ok because it comes late in the game. But I don't think some government types should be so freakishly better than others. Despotism is horrible, and the AI isn't bright enough to get out of it sometimes. The government types need re-evaluating.

Now, as for leaders.... I recently read in a thread that a Firaxis guy said that additional heroic epics (that you can get in a mod) do NOT stack benefits in making new leaders. If this is true, you should change many of the wonders you have. I think some of the leader making wonders should go obsolete and correspond to the era. Heroic Epic for ancient, and National Monument (I think) for modern. Too many leader wonders.

And there is no way the AI would be bright enough to use disbandable leaders. That simply would not work. I would just recommend leaders be for making armies only. With production tightly capped and improvements overpriced, leaders would become too much of a factor, mainly because the AI doesn't know how to use them properly. :(

DyP is great for half of the game, but it screws up later on. I guess that is ok, because its is then just like the real game! :goodjob: Modern units have too many hps and the combat is too predictable with 12/3/3 Cavalry. It is also too long. Cheaper units, buildings, wonders, would help the mod a lot. Silly units like the Dragoon and Cavalry should be looked at again. DyP really helps naval combat a lot, I like that. Overall, it was a satisfying game. Keep it up! :)

konrai
Jul 06, 2002, 06:15 AM
Thanks for the replys but I seem to be having a new problem now. I dasically gave up on figureing out what I did wrong with settign the mod up mabey i'll try again another time. Now after uninstalling everrything including the full game I resarted my computer and went to intall it again. Well it won't start:( It was running fine befor i tryied to enstall the dyp mod. When I try and get it to start I get a screen that says I need to put the CD in and start again well I have done that about 25 times and i have now installed and uninstaled it about the same # of times! Please help I can't even play the game i had going:(( And I was kicking butt !!!!! HELP!!! Also i downloaded the dil thingy that it said i was missing but still nada.

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 06:37 AM
Thanks for the input Higher Game.:goodjob: We've never gotten a whole lot of input on the later stages of the game, so overall, you're probably (that is: Undoubtedly) right that a lot of stuff needs balancing. I'll let Our Fearless Leader go into detail (or perhaps add a few more comments later when I have more time :) ) but I've got a few comments.

Originally posted by Higher Game
I would suggest making the productive buildings cheaper and the bonuses higher. I mean, just look at the guild hall! Or the skyscraper. Or the mill and wind mill. Or the slave market. Then the factory and coal plant. With low production, you are forced to rush this stuff, but the AI doesn't. The translates into a tremendoes late game edge. I'm not sure lowering cost of buildings would improve on the situation. Apparently the AI doesn't even build a lot of improvements in the regular game, so I don't think it's high costs that's detaining it. Lowering the costs would then only unbalance it even more. Perhaps lowering the cost of Units instead, would be a solution, but I think we need to do a lot more testing (and perhaps string up Soren Johnson until he reveals the inner secrets of the AI to us ... )
Tech progression is perfect in regent. You actually are in the industrial ages at about its real time. However, the increased cost of stuff makes it difficult to take advantage of it. The game plays a little more smoothly in monarch+ because the AI shares techs liberally. In regent, I was using armor and infantry before Germany discovered knights! Don't think we'll ever lose this syndrome - some civs will always be lagging behind terribly - like in real life I guess.
As for buildings, I like the idea of the obelisk and cultural buildings, although cultural victory becomes too easy to get. I do not like the idea of a maintenence free temple that requires no resources and only needs 10 production. Do you mean the Shrine? Actually the Shrine doesn't give any cultural bonus, and only costs 10 if you're playing as a Religious civ. Ahhhhh!!! The barbarian rider should be 3/3/2. An attack of 4 is too steep.Being a viking myself, I love the fact that the so-called barbarians are now a force you will have to fear for a long time, rather than the push-overs in the regular game. Government types are screwed up. I have to be honest. Egalitarisnism, needed for Democracy, is too important. I mean, you even get some military support and police benefits in Democracy!It is not supposed to portray modern democracy, but the democracy present in the ancient city states of Greece for example - check the civilopedia blurb. (yes, this one is in, and is correct, I think ;)) The government types need re-evaluating.No doubt about that - they are the favored subject of discussion between RobO and Kal-El, while I try to just stay out of their way, while the debate rages ;). Don't think we've managed to release a new version yet, where governments hadn't been changed in one way or another. Now, as for leaders.... I recently read in a thread that a Firaxis guy said that additional heroic epics (that you can get in a mod) do NOT stack benefits in making new leaders. If this is true, you should change many of the wonders you have. It is true - I asked Mike B. this question and the answer was clear - they will not work. So we will change them in an upcoming patch, but we're waiting for Firaxis to release the new editor, hoping it will give us wonderful new stuff to use these wonders for :rolleyes: - Anyway, the many leader wonders were originally added because most people complained they could play several games without ever seeing a leader, so it was hoped that having several wonders with the effect of the Heroic Epic, would increase the chance. I think some of the leader making wonders should go obsolete and correspond to the era. Would be nice, but unfortunately small wonders cannot become obsolete with the current editor. And there is no way the AI would be bright enough to use disbandable leaders. That simply would not work. I would just recommend leaders be for making armies only. With production tightly capped and improvements overpriced, leaders would become too much of a factor, mainly because the AI doesn't know how to use them properly. :(Exactly how many leaders do you guys get in each game?? I've played about 30-40 full games (not all DyP) and seen maybe 5-6 in total - I fail to see how the Finish Improvement flags can be so unbalancing :confused:
DyP is great for half of the game, but it screws up later on. Don't worry, we're working hard to screw it back in place (please don't ban me for that PH76 ;)) and if you continue to play DyP, we'd really love to get more comments like these. Thanks.

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by konrai
When I try and get it to start I get a screen that says I need to put the CD in and start again well I have done that about 25 times and i have now installed and uninstaled it about the same # of times! Sorry, doesn't really sound like the DyP mod is your problem. This message is the Copy protection scheme which is in the Civ3.exe file. The DyP mod doesn't overwrite this. It could either be due to a corrupt install, or a bad cd. Also i downloaded the dil thingy that it said i was missing but still nada. Do you remember which DLL file it was - sounds more like a Windows problem.

Still, feel free to mail me directly. I've installed (and re-installed, and re-installed, and...) Civ3 and DyP more than most people, so.... ;)

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 06, 2002, 08:33 AM
Great job on the mod, guys! I've played 3 games to the late Industrial Ages - early Modern Ages and have enjoyed playing the mod so far.

There's a few minor problems, though, such as certain units not upgrading to other units, so they can still be built, even when they are obveously obsolete for the time period. For example, since the Privateer does not upgrade to any other unit, I can still build it in a time period where I can build Battleships and Carriers! It would be nice to keep all of the obsolete units upgrading to more modern ones, so you won't end up with a large list of units in your build screen, that you will never even build.

Also, another small problem, is that when I went to check the information on the Communist and Fascist governments, nothing came up. After exploring around in the civ3mod.bic file, I found that one of you accidently entered 'GOVT_Communist' and 'GOVT_Fascist' in the government's civilopedia entries. All you need to do is change the 't' to an 'm' at the end of each of the government names, and it'll be fixed, though.

As for movement along roads, why only 2? This isn't very realistic, if you ask me. From what I have learned about history, I know that the Romans used roads to quickly move their legions around their empire to guard against barbarian attacks. Roads helped the legions get to where they were to guard much more quickly than they would have without roads. So, why not have the movement along roads be 3, or even 4? It's really a pain in the arse to move troops around your lands (with roads) on a huge map without railroads!

Lastly, the citizens eating 3 food instead of the normal 2 really hurts the civilizations who don't start out with very good land. I haven't tested this (because I changed it back to 2 after my first, unfinished game), but it would probably even make it so that only the cities with a large amount of food coming in (and therefore, low production) can grow out past 10. Just a small annoyance.

I've been testing the tech rate for huge maps (Regent difficulty) to try and get it so that you discover the correct technologies somewhere around the (historically) accurate time period. I just keep on raising it and raising it, but I haven't managed to slow the AI enough to stay back discovering the correct technologies during the (historically) accurate time. I think it's the Expansionist civilizations gaining technologies from the "goody huts" (especially on the World Map) that does this.

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Randy24242424
It would be nice to keep all of the obsolete units upgrading to more modern ones, so you won't end up with a large list of units in your build screen, that you will never even build.True, that has been bothering me a bit too - I'll see if I can convince Our Fearless Leader. His idea was to make it historically correct so that once you develop modern ships, your ol Privateers and Galleons would be useless and would have to be scrapped. But we don't really need more things cluttering up the build list IMHO. ;)Also, another small problem, is that when I went to check the information on the Communist and Fascist governments, nothing came up. Thanks, it will be fixed along with the rest of the missing civilopedia entries ..soon, I promise... :)As for movement along roads, why only 2? This isn't very realistic, if you ask me. From what I have learned about history, I know that the Romans used roads to quickly move their legions around their empire to guard against barbarian attacks. Roads helped the legions get to where they were to guard much more quickly than they would have without roads. Don't think this will ever be historically correct, whichever system we choose. Personally I would like to slow down railroads too, but that is not possible at the moment. The Legionaires still move twice as fast on roads as they would have if not on roads. I don't really think anyone would be able to move 3 times as fast just because he was using a road - I know for sure, I am not able to, anyway ;)Lastly, the citizens eating 3 food instead of the normal 2 really hurts the civilizations who don't start out with very good land. I haven't tested this (because I changed it back to 2 after my first, unfinished game) :eek: ooooh, don't tell me you changed it - no offense, but it isn't really Double Your Pleasure then - this is a cornerstone of the mod and everything else is (or will be) balanced carefully around this. It is supposed to make early growth harder, but the situation gets to normal (well, almost normal) once you discover Crop Rotation.I've been testing the tech rate for huge maps (Regent difficulty) to try and get it so that you discover the correct technologies somewhere around the (historically) accurate time period. I just keep on raising it and raising it, but I haven't managed to slow the AI enough to stay back discovering the correct technologies during the (historically) accurate time. I think it's the Expansionist civilizations gaining technologies from the "goody huts" (especially on the World Map) that does this. Well it's a bit hard to know for sure since the AI hasn't been hindered by the 3 Food Consumption thingie, but the AI to AI trade levels might still be adjusted a bit, I guess. In the games I've played, I've usually followed an almost correct historical timeline tech-wise, and this appears to be what most people experience ... but, give us more feedback, it's the only way we'll ever know (since we hardly have time to play the thing ourselves :D )

Thanks for the input - keep it coming.:goodjob:

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 06, 2002, 12:52 PM
True, that has been bothering me a bit too - I'll see if I can convince Our Fearless Leader. His idea was to make it historically correct so that once you develop modern ships, your ol Privateers and Galleons would be useless and would have to be scrapped. But we don't really need more things cluttering up the build list IMHO. ;)

Well, I'd rather have it that way, too. But is there really any other way (right now) to make it so that you can't build a unit once you've discovered a certain technology, without having it upgrade to some other unit?

Don't think this will ever be historically correct, whichever system we choose. Personally I would like to slow down railroads too, but that is not possible at the moment. The Legionaires still move twice as fast on roads as they would have if not on roads. I don't really think anyone would be able to move 3 times as fast just because he was using a road - I know for sure, I am not able to, anyway ;)

Well, just imagine walking into a forest without roads or anything to help you find your way through. Then imagine having a road help guide you through. See what I mean? :)

:eek: ooooh, don't tell me you changed it - no offense, but it isn't really Double Your Pleasure then - this is a cornerstone of the mod and everything else is (or will be) balanced carefully around this. It is supposed to make early growth harder, but the situation gets to normal (well, almost normal) once you discover Crop Rotation.

Ah-hah...I see. I'll set that back, then. Maybe that will also help slow the rate at which the AI will be discovering technologies. Oh boy, now I have to restart a game I've been playing for a couple few hours now! :cry:

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Randy24242424
Well, I'd rather have it that way, too. But is there really any other way (right now) to make it so that you can't build a unit once you've discovered a certain technology, without having it upgrade to some other unit? No, don't think so. It would be so nice to make units, improvements etc disappear from the build list based on the Age, or at least the discovery of a certain tech (if anyone from Firaxis is reading this...it is a hint ;))Well, just imagine walking into a forest without roads or anything to help you find your way through. Then imagine having a road help guide you through. See what I mean? :)Sure, for Forests, Jungles and Mountains it would make sense, perhaps, but not for Plains, Grassland and Hills, IMHO. So the effects even out, in the long run..:p

RobO
Jul 06, 2002, 01:42 PM
Higher Game and Randy24242424

This is outstanding :goodjob:

AFAIK we havent had so much constructive feedback in such a short time before.

Keep it up :goodjob:

Kal-el
Jul 06, 2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
Just finished my second game of DyP.First let me say, Thank you. Thank you for playing the mod and thank you for the great feedback!
It kinda burned out by the Industrial Ages, ... .We'll see what we can do to fix that.
... and I think I know why. It was the AI's production
I played builder style to get used to the mod. The AI gets extremely weak after the middle ages, where it is at its peak. The AI apparently doesn't go crazy with the production type buildings like I did.
We wil try and address this in the next patch. But as Isak said, the AI seems to place a premium on building its military. I will have to take a look at the AI governors and see what I can come up with. I think the problem may be that only the Industrious civs are flagged to build production buildings often. We will try it with everybody having that flag and see what happens.
The issue is that the modern military units are very expensive. The AI focuses on making its army before production, but it progresses slowly because it has low production anyway.
...
I would suggest making the productive buildings cheaper and the bonuses higher. I mean, just look at the guild hall! Or the skyscraper. Or the mill and wind mill. Or the slave market. Then the factory and coal plant. With low production, you are forced to rush this stuff, but the AI doesn't. The translates into a tremendoes late game edge.I agree with Isak, that lowering the cost would only increase the players advantage over the AI. But we are actually working on adjusting the costs of the earlier imporvements down, so this may help in the earlier stages.
Also, while combat is balanced early on, "super units" hurt the game a bit. I fought 1 AI with only 3 dragoons against about 20 of mine. As I said earlier, stuff is too expensive!Please clarify "Super Units".
Tech progression is perfect in regent. You actually are in the industrial ages at about its real time. However, the increased cost of stuff makes it difficult to take advantage of it. The game plays a little more smoothly in monarch+ because the AI shares techs liberally. In regent, I was using armor and infantry before Germany discovered knights!Hmmm, this sounds a lot like recent U.S. military actions. High Tech army versus stone age civilization. Seriously though, if the AI is still trading techs as liberally as before, as I know they are, they should not be too far behind you if at all in the tech race.
Ahhhhh!!! The barbarian rider should be 3/3/2. An attack of 4 is too steep. Barbarians were a problem for civilized nations until the advent of useful gunpowder weapons. Even the most powerful empires feared the raging barbarian hoardes. The next patch will make the Great Wall a bit more potent, so if you are really having problems with the old Barbs you may want to put a higher priority on this one.
Government types are screwed up. I have to be honest. Egalitarisnism, needed for Democracy, is too important. I mean, you even get some military support and police benefits in Democracy!I am not sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that leaving despotism behind for a higher form of government is too important? :)
Workers work far too slowly in Despotism and too quickly in Democracy. Social Democracy is ok because it comes late in the game. But I don't think some government types should be so freakishly better than others. Despotism is horrible, and the AI isn't bright enough to get out of it sometimes. The government types need re-evaluating.Despotism IS horrible. You are right. But I will look into doing something about getting them to switch out of it as soon as they can. Which governments do you think are freakishly better than others. I tried to balance them against the other forms that are available at or around that same time. i.e. republic, democracy, monarchy and theocracy are supposed to balance against each other. Communism, fascism, federal republic and social democracy are meant to balance against each other, and anarchy and despotism are supposed to be avoided if at all possible. You may be pleased to know, and you may want to adjust in your own bic, that Federal Republic and Social Democracy will both have High War Weariness in the next release.
Now, as for leaders.... I recently read in a thread that a Firaxis guy said that additional heroic epics (that you can get in a mod) do NOT stack benefits in making new leaders. If this is true, you should change many of the wonders you have.You don't know how disappointed I was when I read that. Ask RobO, he can attest. But we pick ourselves up and we move on. I have come up with a, IMHO, beautiful solution to that problem and an even better use for those wonders. Hopefully we don't run into a similar problem. :D
I think some of the leader making wonders should go obsolete and correspond to the era. Heroic Epic for ancient, and National Monument (I think) for modern. Too many leader wonders.I have been lobbying for the ability to make improvements and small wonders obsolete since the inception of this mod. Hasn't happened yet. Keep your fingers crossed.
DyP is great for half of the game, but it screws up later on. I guess that is ok, because its is then just like the real game! :goodjob: :( shoot I was hoping to make it better than the original.:(
Modern units have too many hps and the combat is too predictable with 12/3/3 Cavalry.Too predicatble! First people are complaing about spearmen killing tanks and now its too predictable! Ah me! ;) Ok, I'll take a look at it. You know you should stack some defensive units with those Dragoons. There are clear offensive units and then there are units that need to go along with them so that 3 dragoons can't wipe out 20 dragoons. Won't see that happen if there are some musketmen stacked with them.
It is also too long.Thats what she said. bu dum bum.:D
But seriously folks, are you talking about the combat or the mod.
Cheaper units, buildings, wonders, would help the mod a lot. Silly units like the Dragoon and Cavalry should be looked at again.Why are the Dragoon and the Cavalry silly? Do they make you laugh? Are they some painted face clown there to amuse you? Sorry, why do you think they are silly?
DyP really helps naval combat a lot, I like that.Cool, that was one definitely one of the things we were aiming for.
Overall, it was a satisfying game. Keep it up! :) We aim to please. Thanks again for the response.

Randy, I will get to your comments later. :)

Higher Game
Jul 06, 2002, 03:09 PM
Sorry for not clarifying. Combat lasts too long. Have a 10 hp unit attack another 10 hp unit. Repeat 20x. Also, I think there might be a defence factor in attacking. In a scenario when my cavalry attacked an infantry.

12/3/3 cavalry (I think, not checking)
8/10 infantry

Cavalry injures infantry. Infantry injures cavalry. And so on. The 12 attack is a little too steep, but not much. It should be 10/5/3. Infantry is perfect as it is.

The tank has a little too much defence. It should be a little more vulnerable, but not much. As for "super units." The Crusader is available early on, and has a lot of power for its time. 8 attack against a pikeman's 4 defence is very steep. The AI isn't bright enough to figure out how weak it is on the defence. So it should be a little weaker. And the AI can't afford the high cost of the super units, so that is why it only had 3. I think there should be more emphasis on the whole war, instead of a few battles that could deside the whole thing. In total, almost all of the units should be slightly weakened but reduced in cost.

The barbs are ok at regent. However, it is just silly to allow them to sack your cities. This is actually more efficient than fighting back. Please tell me there is some way you could make them better. In my current game, I leave science as high as possible because gold doesn't last long.

I like the idea of mining forests. This is how I got production, although not much until I made railroads. The workers only make enough food to feed themselves, and you need a surplus to set some on hills/forest! To solve this problem, why not make crop rotation take 3x as long to finish but give +2 food? It would allow more production. Industrial civs should get faster workers, but not much faster. 2x speed is too much, so they should work at 1.5x speed.

As for governments, despotism is horrible. But if it really is that bad, why are there so many in this world? Military support should be higher in despotism. I think 2 per town, 6 per city, and 12 for metro should be fine. There should be a huge military advantage for going this route, although monarchy should be slightly better. Democracy's workers are too fast, especially because democracy is available so early. The Greek democracy wasn't nearly as powerful as the democracy here.

The wonders are ok, but the ones that influence the whole empire needs to be checked again. Sun Tzu's barracks are ok. But Big Ben's clock towers? I think this goes a little overboard. For the cost of making 3 towers normally, you get towers in every one of your cities without maintenence. That's huge.

And leaders are too powerful because they were never designed to rush a 2000 shield wonder in a single turn. They are more common than you think, especially in huge maps. They should be army leaders because that is what they really are for.

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
Sorry for not clarifying. Combat lasts too long. Have a 10 hp unit attack another 10 hp unit. Repeat 20x.Do you mean the actual process of a battle takes too long to watch..:confused: - hmm. Well if that's it, I guess unchecking "Animate Battles" in the preferences would solve that problem. Not to say you might not have a point about the units, however.The barbs are ok at regent. However, it is just silly to allow them to sack your cities. This is actually more efficient than fighting back. That's what people used to do ... hide outside the city or in dungeons and let the barbarians raid the town. Actually I think it provides the incentive to build Walls - something I never did in original Civ3, but actually consider doing everytime I settle on the edge of civilization now. And like Kal-El said, the Great Wall will soon be very important if you're overrun by the Barbs.As for governments, despotism is horrible. But if it really is that bad, why are there so many in this world? A wild guess: Because it's great for the Despot ;)The wonders are ok, but the ones that influence the whole empire needs to be checked again. Sun Tzu's barracks are ok. But Big Ben's clock towers? I think this goes a little overboard. For the cost of making 3 towers normally, you get towers in every one of your cities without maintenence. That's huge.I may lean a bit towards agreeing with you here, but I'm gonna conduct a thorough analysis of the Buildings one of these days, and I really don't want to make any final statements before that (of course, by that time Kal-El and RobO have probably changed everything around...:rolleyes: )And leaders are too powerful because they were never designed to rush a 2000 shield wonder in a single turn. They are more common than you think, especially in huge maps. They should be army leaders because that is what they really are for. I agree that there may be a problem when used on the later wonders, but what do you mean when you say: "that is what they really are for" ? - They have the ability to rush improvements in the original too, and some of the leader names (which I threw at RobO in a similar discussion a few days ago) are: George Washington, Lenin, Stalin, Charles DeGaulle....I don't associate these people with Military leadership. That said, we can of course make them act as we want to in the mod, but I personally would not like the Hurry Improvement ability removed - it sort of spoils the point of leaders, if I don't get to choose what to use them for, IMO.

kingjoshi
Jul 06, 2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
As for governments, despotism is horrible. But if it really is that bad, why are there so many in this world? Military support should be higher in despotism. I think 2 per town, 6 per city, and 12 for metro should be fine. There should be a huge military advantage for going this route, although monarchy should be slightly better. Democracy's workers are too fast, especially because democracy is available so early. The Greek democracy wasn't nearly as powerful as the democracy here.

I agree that Despotism is undervalued in this mod. One of my major problems with Civ3 and the mod as well is the governments system. It's probably because I'm an idealist and tend to make things political and philosophical. This game is supposed to blend real history with a "What could've happened' type of thing.

The fact is, Dictatorship and totalitarianism is the MOST EFFECTIVE type of government. That's why all militaries work that way. However, their drawback in government is when people are not happy, then revolutions should be MUCH more likely and violent. However, if there was a benevolent ruler who took care of this people, they would not complain and I dare say, that government would be more effective than this crap in the US. Granted, the US is better than most countries and has made long strides, but compared to idealism :), it leaves a lot to be desired.

It's not what government system you have by name, it's how it really works that matters. (I still don't understand why the word democracy has taken the meaning it has since there was already a word for it, Republic!). China is the most populated nation in the world with a messed up one party system. It definitely isn't communistic (far from it) and though it's considered a republic (The People's Republic of China), who do you really get to choose from? So, regardless of the fact you elect people, very few consider it "democratic". Unfortunately, The US is not much better with only being able to select from two parties (realistically). It's definitely corrupted with Gore, Bush, Clinton, where they get their money, who sponsors them, etc. So it's not as though the American public gets a whole bunch of good options either. India is the largest "democracy" in some sense, but their bereaucracy is MUCH worse than the US and their level of corruption is magnitudes worse. I barely want to touch on the only Hindu Kingdom in the world, my native land, where there is a civil war with the Maoists fighting to bring down the King and the current political system, even though Half the legislatures are Communists!

Regardless of the "name" or "form" of government, what matters more is how the people respond to that government and what actually happens. How the government deals with their people, how they protect them, encourage them and help them succeed. I didn't major in history or politics (Computer Science actually), but I can see that a lot of people who did and then spread their "knowledge" don't know what they're talking about.

And though the programmers of Civ3 would like to be realistic or somewhat so, their main goal is to make the game enjoyable, regardless of realism. They also program with their biases of governments, so that must also be factored.

Seriously, is the level of corruption in India so much lower than the Soviets because of the style of government? Is the corruption is Russia so much lower because of their form of government has changed (granted, some improvements have been made, but there have been drawbacks as well). Is the war weariness of the US so much lower than if we had been a monarchy? Take Isreal for example. Their war weariness is not low, and for good reason.

The programmers also decided to make "Republic" the classic definition, but not the same for "Democracy". Even in the stupid "Pledge of Allegiance," which should drop "Under God," it says this nation is a republic. sighs...

Sorry for the rant, but just had to get that off my chest...

Since we have to deal with this system for governments, I'll actually post "constructive criticism" in a later post on governments. Mostly, I've just played and tried not to think about it :)

Originally posted by Higher Game
And leaders are too powerful because they were never designed to rush a 2000 shield wonder in a single turn. They are more common than you think, especially in huge maps. They should be army leaders because that is what they really are for.

I never seem to get many throughout the course of a game, even when I play with Militaristic civs. Obviously, since it's random, some players will get better "luck" than others.

I think that leaders should keep their ability to do both, keep the caravans, merchants, etc, and also add a unit that only builds armies. just a thought.

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by kingjoshi
The fact is, Dictatorship and totalitarianism is the MOST EFFECTIVE type of government. That's why all militaries work that way. However, their drawback in government is when people are not happy, then revolutions should be MUCH more likely and violent. However, if there was a benevolent ruler who took care of this people, they would not complain and I dare say, that government would be more effective than this crap in the US. :eek: ooooh, I think you boys should lay off on the Machiavelli for a while and read some nice stories instead....;)

Problem with Despotism is, especially if you're a benevolent ruler, you won't be able to make everybody happy all the time, and people (especially subjects) are very demanding, so it is inevitable some sort of negative reaction will come, whichever road you choose. If you're not a benevolent ruler you will of course just kill all opposition, but that doesn't really help growth and production all that much, and of course it also affects happiness in a negative direction furthermore. Actually the Despot's greatest enemy is: his subjects. Which is why Tyranny only works for relatively small countries. The more subjects you have, the more soldiers you will need to contain riots, stop mass-migrations etc. And the more soldiers you amass, the harder it will be to retain power, as all your lieutenants and captains will of course want to sit on the throne themselves. That is why dictators are apparently most often shot by fellow countrymen under the guise of a so-called revolution.(I still don't understand why the word democracy has taken the meaning it has since there was already a word for it, Republic!).I'm not a major in History or Politics either but I do have a copy of the Oxford Dictionary ;) and the subtle difference according to this is: The President. Democracies have no President, or any other kind of semi-leader figure. In other words, to paraphrase good old George Orwell, no one is "more equal than others".The programmers also decided to make "Republic" the classic definition, but not the same for "Democracy". Even in the stupid "Pledge of Allegiance," which should drop "Under God," it says this nation is a republic. sighs... And indeed it is - see above :D. The R.U.S.A :p

kingjoshi
Jul 06, 2002, 05:35 PM
Propaganda is such a wonderful thing. I say that in jest, but there is a bit of truth to it. Many in the Soviet public did believe in Communism. Many in Hitler's reign did buy into what he was saying. The same is true for the public here (US) with capitalism and many other ideas. True, you can't please everyone, but if you "are a benevolent ruler" and you hold a good enough majority, then you don't have to "kill off" the minority. They will be considered fools by the public or the public will lynch them for you. Not that the second is a good thing, but if you only care about your power, then it works. Also, if you seem to have a rational logic for the laws you enact or the projects you mandate, then the public can be swayed to think it is good, maybe even rational or logical :) Also, there are many marketing and pyschological manuvers you must pull. But every politcian (regardless of form of government or how sucecssful they are) realize that. The successful politicians have learned a lot of tricks while attaining power and retaining it. Most governments don't have a great PR group probably, but it's also very important to have a good PR department, especially when talking to reporters for Newspapers, Radio and other forms of media. The media can dissipate knowledge and truth, but also propaganda, and sometimes they coincide.

There will always be rebels and people that don't like government or government officials. JFK was shot. Lincoln was shot. Reagon was shot at. Even Gandhi was shot at, by a Hindu no less. So lets not assume that assinations are particular to Dictatorships. Monarchies lasted for a long time, not only because people believed they were descendants of god :) True, the feeling of helplessness has something to do with it, but it's the same reason the voting levels aren't high in many countries today, even with democracy in the US. You only have to keep people happy to a certain level. Where the cons of a revolution outweigh the benefits of the status quo.

Some assume that's one purpose of welfare. that the poor will be satisfied enough not to do too much about it. To a degree, regardless of the intentions, it does do that.

True, other military officials can pose a problem. But you just have to make sure that no particular one gains more popularity than you. Probably easier said than done, who knows. However, Castro has stayed in power quite a while. Throw enough bones to the generals and captains, and they will be happy too. Just as in the US, congressman always seem to add stupid little things to bills that help little towns, that always is a favor to some representative's district that helps them get reelected But that isn't beneficial for the country. A local optimum is no global optimum. You just have to have enough national/global advances where people have a general favoral opinion of you and your policies and enough small things that those particular people love you. There are a lot of things to consider, as with any form of government, but doesn't mean it couldn't be done or that it's such a disadvantagious.

And surely, the laws you enact (economical and political) have a as much, if not greater role, in the success of the country than the form of government ruling at the time.

well, I guess that's 4 cents now. back to playing civ3 :)

Isak
Jul 06, 2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by kingjoshi
There will always be rebels and people that don't like government or government officials. JFK was shot. Lincoln was shot. Reagon was shot at. Even Gandhi was shot at, by a Hindu no less. So lets not assume that assinations are particular to Dictatorships.Oh, I never did actually - but the difference is, when your shot at as the dictator, you can be sure someone is waiting in the wing to assume power. The guys who shot JFK, Lincoln, and Reagan (though he missed) were not potential usurpers of the power. There might have been political motives behind the shootings (though probably not in Reagans case, AFAIK) but there was not an army of rebels waiting to move in and introduce a new regime. A dictator is so much easier to remove, as he is dependent on so many factors (troops) and the men who command these troops. True, other military officials can pose a problem. But you just have to make sure that no particular one gains more popularity than you. Probably easier said than done, who knows.This is the difficult part - how do you stay more popular in the eyes of the troops when they go to war and you just remain in the capital, behind safe walls. The Roman emperors in the later years were faced with this very often, as the Praetorian Guard would ever so often kill the emperor only to put one of their own on the throne (and then in turn kill him when he started to refuse them their excessive pay).

But before we stray too far, lets just agree that how to stay in power for the longest time, is really not the interesting part of a governments discussion, since Firaxis have ensured that, if all things are equal, and we don't do stupid things, we can rule all the way to the beginning of the 21st century, without worrying about usurpers and assassinations, or even the smuttyness of wars.

The point is, how well does a specific type of Government let you develop your country in the way you want it to develop. And IMHO despotism as a tool to develop your country, is inferior in all aspects, - like I stated earlier, It's great for the Despot (if he learns to dodge the bullets ;) ) but never for the country. It is perhaps not as inferior in the military aspects, as in the other aspects (growth, wealth, production, etc.).... but it s**cks big time, and should continue to do so. :p

Kal-el
Jul 06, 2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by kingjoshi
I agree that Despotism is undervalued in this mod. ... The fact is, Dictatorship and totalitarianism is the MOST EFFECTIVE type of government.Most effective for what? That is the question you need to ask yourself. Most effective in the short term, while under the rule of a benevelonet despot, maybe, and thats a big maybe. But we are dealing with a game where the early turns take hundreds of years. Not many rulers last that long, even if they aren't killed off by scheming rivals. You have to look at it as a whole. If you are in a despotism for thousands of years chances are you are going to have more bad leaders than good. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that. Dictatorships may be the most effective way to get an immediate project completed but in the long haul the amount of unhappiness and discontent that they create slows down production and growth.
... However, their drawback in government is when people are not happy, then revolutions should be MUCH more likely and violent. However, if there was a benevolent ruler who took care of this people, they would not complain ...Thats my point.
It's not what government system you have by name, it's how it really works that matters. (I still don't understand why the word democracy has taken the meaning it has since there was already a word for it, Republic!).There is a difference, subtle but distinct. A republic is a government made up of representatives voted in by all the people who had the right to vote. In Rome, the classic republic, there was a senate, the senate then voted two consuls to lead the senate in its debates and to act as heads of state. This is before Julius Caeser and the line of emperors. The senate then determined the course of the republic without the input from the people.

Athens on the other hand was a classic democracy in which all the people who had the right to vote, which wasn't everybody, mostly just the wealthy landowners, voted on every specific issue. Very inefficient form of government, but the people were generally happy and Athens is known for its advancements in philosophy and art.

How does this relate to the mod. Well, I can see your point on the work rate for democracies being a bit too high, 3 is a lot for an early government and the increased rate cap and lowered corruption should be enough to distinguish it. That will be changed.

China is the most populated nation in the world with a messed up one party system. It definitely isn't communistic (far from it)ah, but it is a communist country (though its slowly moving away from that), it is just not a marxist/socialist country. China is a Totalitarian state. Totalitarianism is a one party system in which the state dominates every aspect of everyday life. Totalitarianism has taken on many forms throughout history, starting with the earliest despots all the way up to modern day China. Communism is not so much a politcal form as it is an economic model. Where as we in the "Free World" live under a capitalist model where cost is based on the market, the communits model is a state run economy in which everything is supposed to be free. The cold war really messed up peoples understanding of communism.
and though it's considered a republic (The People's Republic of China), who do you really get to choose from? So, regardless of the fact you elect people, very few consider it "democratic". That doesn't make it any less of a republic, by technical definition. If the people "vote" for their representatives it is a republic. And it isn't democratic thats why they don't claim to be a democracy and why the students in Tiennamen were slaughtered protesting for democracy.
Regardless of the "name" or "form" of government, what matters more is how the people respond to that government and what actually happens. How the government deals with their people, how they protect them, encourage them and help them succeed. I didn't major in history or politics (Computer Science actually), but I can see that a lot of people who did and then spread their "knowledge" don't know what they're talking about.I was a political science major, with a minor in history and a law degree. you are right, how the government deals with their people, how they protect them, encourage them and help them succeed is very important. And youi will see much more of the encouragement and helping to succeed under a government that is founded on basic principles of human equality and justice, a government in which the lowest of its citizens can rise to become one of the greatest leaders in history. You don't see that a lot under a despot. Usually they are pretty concerned with keeping their position. Not that the people in power in a Federal Republic such as the US are not concerned with keeping their positions but certain things like term limits prevent them from staying on too long. Again I point to the fact that the game has to represent the form of government over the long term, not just for one leaders tenure.

Seriously, is the level of corruption in India so much lower than the Soviets because of the style of government?[quote]I don't know what the level of corruption is like in India, but I can tell you this, the level of corruption in the former Soviet Union was directly related to the form of government. "From each according to his talents, to each according to his needs" doesn't really foster that entreprenuerial spirit. People in the Soviet Union were better off do as little as possible in order to get whatever the state could offer. There is an old saying in Russia, "the blade of grass that stands the tallest is the first to be cut down." No sense sticking your neck out, it will only get you into trouble.

[quote]Is the corruption is Russia so much lower because of their form of government has changed (granted, some improvements have been made, but there have been drawbacks as well).Other institutions like a free press, something you don't see in a totalitarian state, also lead to lowered corrruption and higher production.

Even in the stupid "Pledge of Allegiance," which should drop "Under God," it says this nation is a republic. sighs... how is the "Pledge of Allegiance" stupid? You may not agree with the usage of Under God, but that doesn't make the Pledge STUPID!!! And while the "Under God" phraseaology may have been added in later, it is not inaccurate. The Country was founded "Under God" the founding fathers were almost to a man devout men, who believed strongly in a Supreme being. Granted they were mostly Christian, but I am pretty sure that Jews believe in God, they call him Yahweh, Muslims believe in God, they call him Allah, Hindus believe in gods, the only people who do not believe in a god are aethiests, and aetheism can just asa easily be considered a religion, so explain to me now, why in this Great Democratic Republic of hours why we should remove "Under God" from the "Pledge of Allegiance" and explain to me why students in our public schools should not pledge their allegiance to this country that is providing them with all their freedoms. And explain to me why any discussion of religion should be banned from our public shools and public buildings. Isn't that then a State sponsored support of aetheism?

The First Amendment of the US Constitution reads as follows: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof; ...at the time that was written several states including Massachusettes had a State religion. The amendment did not prohibit this it only prohibited Congress, the federal government, from cdecalring a national religion. This was mainly in response to the Anglican Church, alsoi known as the Church of England. The founding fathers didn't want a Church of the United States.

I am not sorry for the rant. I am sorry for people who don't understand the Constitution and swallow anything that they are told without doing some actual inquiry into the subject matter.

Sorry again Randy, I will get to your comments later. :) I promise.:D

Kal-el
Jul 06, 2002, 06:12 PM
George Washington was a great military hero. He lead the Continental Army using a very sound strategy, the only one that was reasonable given the enemy he was facing. He lead the Continentals on a series of tactical retreats that wore away at the British army's and the British peoples' resolve to fight (there's that pesky war weariness thing again) Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that point.

Kal-el
Jul 06, 2002, 06:26 PM
Also, Reagan was shot.

John Hinckley Jr. shot U.S. president Ronald Reagan on March 30, 1981 as Reagan departed the Washington D.C. Hilton Hotel after making a speech. Reagan was severely wounded along with three other men. Hinckley was subdued and arrested on the spot. It turned out Hinckley was obsessed with actress Jodie Foster and had been trying to impress her. Foster had starred with Robert DeNiro in Taxi Driver, a 1977 movie about a crazed loner stalking a presidential candidate. Hinckley had reportedly seen the movie more than a dozen times. Hinckley was tried for the crime in 1982 and found not guilty by reason of insanity.

Kal-el
Jul 06, 2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Randy24242424
There's a few minor problems, though, such as certain units not upgrading to other units, so they can still be built, even when they are obveously obsolete for the time period. For example, since the Privateer does not upgrade to any other unit, I can still build it in a time period where I can build Battleships and Carriers!The problem is that there is nothing for the privateer to logically upgrade to. They were just scrapped for the most part. I suppose they could upgrade to the steam frigate.


As for movement along roads, why only 2? This isn't very realistic, if you ask me. From what I have learned about history, I know that the Romans used roads to quickly move their legions around their empire to guard against barbarian attacks. Roads helped the legions get to where they were to guard much more quickly than they would have without roads. So, why not have the movement along roads be 3, or even 4? It's really a pain in the arse to move troops around your lands (with roads) on a huge map without railroads!I think you are just used to the 3 movement of regular civ. If civ had always been 2 and I switched it to 3 I imagine people would be like hold on there buckeroo, thats moving aweful fast now ain't it. I know thats how I feel if I ever play with 3 movement on roads now. It takes a little getting used to, but so does the whole mod. Try not to think of it as civ3.

You have to look at it from an over all game balance perspective. Is it reasonable for units that treat all terrain as roads to actually travel three times further than a unit with similar movement rate but minus the bonus flag? I don't think so. And I have added more units that have that ability. Think of the advantage the Ranger would have over the scout if he could travel 3 tiles per turn no matter what. It would be rediculous. Really, I think it just takes some getting used to. And obviously the railroad movement rate is completely screwed up and always has been.

Lastly, the citizens eating 3 food instead of the normal 2 really hurts the civilizations who don't start out with very good land. I haven't tested this (because I changed it back to 2 after my first, unfinished game), but it would probably even make it so that only the cities with a large amount of food coming in (and therefore, low production) can grow out past 10. Just a small annoyance.As Isak said, you're really not playing DyP then. So many other aspects of the game revolve around this particular change. I have no concept as to how the mod would play out without this feature, but I can tell you it wouldn't play the way it was supposed to.

Thanks for the feedback. Let me know how that tech thing works for you now that you have the food levels set straight.

kingjoshi
Jul 06, 2002, 07:06 PM
You believe the strength of the government should be what would generally happen over the long haul. I believe the strength of Despotism should be somewhat flexible in how I rule over a long period of time. So, Civ3 programmers probably did it right by making the power inbetween :) So we'll leave that at that. I see your point, I hope you see mine.

Originally posted by Kal-el
Most effective for what? That is the question you need to ask yourself. Most effective in the short term, while under the rule of a benevelonet despot, maybe, and thats a big maybe. But we are dealing with a game where the early turns take hundreds of years. Not many rulers last that long, even if they aren't killed off by scheming rivals. You have to look at it as a whole. If you are in a despotism for thousands of years chances are you are going to have more bad leaders than good. Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that. Dictatorships may be the most effective way to get an immediate project completed but in the long haul the amount of unhappiness and discontent that they create slows down production and growth.

Most effective in the sense that it gives people direction. That's one of the most immortant thing in a person's life. Everyone needs goals, motives, etc. Today, consummerism has people wanting the best techs, go watch movies, etc. A certain amount is healthy. I fear that many has gone overboard. Maybe my concern is out of touch, but I still fear that consumerism has made people lose touch with some important things. 9/11 was an unfortunate occurence which did help that aspect of society. People (kids) to be firefighters, policemen and serve the country and community. Most know that teachers get undervalued and so do the service men and women. Hopefully, kids will aspire to those professions again.

Governments can use propaganda. They can tell kids that those professions are great and important and make kids want to be astronuats and scientists as well, not just entertainers and become rich, though a certain portion of the population must aspire for that as well.

Originally posted by Kal-el
There is a difference, subtle but distinct. A republic is a government made up of representatives voted in by all the people who had the right to vote. In Rome, the classic republic, there was a senate, the senate then voted two consuls to lead the senate in its debates and to act as heads of state. This is before Julius Caeser and the line of emperors. The senate then determined the course of the republic without the input from the people.

Athens on the other hand was a classic democracy in which all the people who had the right to vote, which wasn't everybody, mostly just the wealthy landowners, voted on every specific issue. Very inefficient form of government, but the people were generally happy and Athens is known for its advancements in philosophy and art.

How does this relate to the mod. Well, I can see your point on the work rate for democracies being a bit too high, 3 is a lot for an early government and the increased rate cap and lowered corruption should be enough to distinguish it. That will be changed.

I know the distinction and no country could remain a pure democracy with today's population. That's why I just brought up the issue in the first place, because there is now a distinction between "pure democracy" and "democracy". If the US had a "pure democracy", even just for the presidental elections, Al Gore would've been president instead of George Bush. A small distinction by definition, but could've made one hell of a difference in global scale. (Kyoto Treaty, Star Wars, etc..)

Originally posted by Kal-el
ah, but it is a communist country (though its slowly moving away from that), it is just not a marxist/socialist country. China is a Totalitarian state. Totalitarianism is a one party system in which the state dominates every aspect of everyday life. Totalitarianism has taken on many forms throughout history, starting with the earliest despots all the way up to modern day China. Communism is not so much a politcal form as it is an economic model. Where as we in the "Free World" live under a capitalist model where cost is based on the market, the communits model is a state run economy in which everything is supposed to be free. The cold war really messed up peoples understanding of communism.
That doesn't make it any less of a republic, by technical definition. If the people "vote" for their representatives it is a republic. And it isn't democratic thats why they don't claim to be a democracy and why the students in Tiennamen were slaughtered protesting for democracy.

I know that Capitalism and Communism are forms of economic systems. Nepal had the first democratic Communist country. At the same time, being a Hindu Kingdom. Under Civ2/3, it was a Monarchy (king has military power), republic (people vote for legislatures in parliament and representatives), fundamentalist (90+ % Hindu with a Hindu king, where killing a cow is against the law), and Communist.

In China, the ruling party has embraced the entrepreneurs and capitalistlic ideas. I find some of it very unfortunate. China is now under the World Trade Ogranization I believe. So it's while there are communistic remnants, it's changed. considerably.

China obviously isn't a "pure democracy". Since they can vote for different people under the same party, it's a republic. But since there isn't two parties, it's not a democracy? When did two or more parties get thrown into the term democracy?

Originally posted by Kal-el
[B]I was a political science major, with a minor in history and a law degree. you are right, how the government deals with their people, how they protect them, encourage them and help them succeed is very important. And youi will see much more of the encouragement and helping to succeed under a government that is founded on basic principles of human equality and justice, a government in which the lowest of its citizens can rise to become one of the greatest leaders in history. You don't see that a lot under a despot. Usually they are pretty concerned with keeping their position. Not that the people in power in a Federal Republic such as the US are not concerned with keeping their positions but certain things like term limits prevent them from staying on too long. Again I point to the fact that the game has to represent the form of government over the long term, not just for one leaders tenure.

Noted. Difference in opinions.

Originally posted by Kal-el
Other institutions like a free press, something you don't see in a totalitarian state, also lead to lowered corrruption and higher production.

I'll study history before I make more comments on this I guess. I don't see the connection. I'm not saying free press is bad or anything, by no means. I'm just saying, propaganda done well should be able to offset it, especially if you allow wiggle room for press, but not freedom to the extent in the US or other nations.

Originally posted by Kal-el
is the "Pledge of Allegiance" stupid? You may not agree with the usage of Under God, but that doesn't make the Pledge STUPID!!! And while the "Under God" phraseaology may have been added in later, it is not inaccurate. The Country was founded "Under God" the founding fathers were almost to a man devout men, who believed strongly in a Supreme being. Granted they were mostly Christian, but I am pretty sure that Jews believe in God, they call him Yahweh, Muslims believe in God, they call him Allah, Hindus believe in gods, the only people who do not believe in a god are aethiests, and aetheism can just asa easily be considered a religion, so explain to me now, why in this Great Democratic Republic of hours why we should remove "Under God" from the "Pledge of Allegiance" and explain to me why students in our public schools should not pledge their allegiance to this country that is providing them with all their freedoms. And explain to me why any discussion of religion should be banned from our public shools and public buildings. Isn't that then a State sponsored support of aetheism?

First, one of the things that makes the nation great is the IDEAS under which it was founded. NOT THE FLAG. the Pledge is to the flag! The ideas of equality, liberty, rule of the people, by the people, for the people. Kids should be taught to understand that and the privelages here (and elsewhere. too many americans think it's unique to the US). They should be willing to Stand for those ideals and others. not the flag.

True, many Founding fathers were Christians. many were deists and called themselves Christian, which resembles Christianity today in little to no way! They would have had severe conflicts with Fundamentalist Christians today and many in general I believe. The Age of Reason has passed. Hopefully, it'll come again.

Students do have the privelage to say the Pledge in class. Teachers do not have the privelage of FORCING students to say the pledge. That has already been decided by the Supreme Court. Also, the pledge fails the Lemming test (I think that's what it's called) when the purpose of the words "Under God" is influence people for religion. How would the pledge sound if everyday you or a child (who is highly impressionable) had to stand and hear (if not repeat) other students say, "One Nation NOT under god" or "One Nation, under no particular god" ? People made a big deal over the conservative rightists in France getting 17% of the vote. half the people in the US Congress might fall underneath that category and people here don't notice it :( George Bush Sr. makes a comment that Atheists can't be American citizens and no one (besides atheists) notices. And that's during his presidency!


Originally posted by Kal-el
First Amendment of the US Constitution reads as follows: at the time that was written several states including Massachusettes had a State religion. The amendment did not prohibit this it only prohibited Congress, the federal government, from cdecalring a national religion. This was mainly in response to the Anglican Church, alsoi known as the Church of England. The founding fathers didn't want a Church of the United States.

I am not sorry for the rant. I am sorry for people who don't understand the Constitution and swallow anything that they are told without doing some actual inquiry into the subject matter.

Sorry again Randy, I will get to your comments later. :) I promise.:D

Yes, the second amendment says people have the right to bear arms and form a militia ... The "right" to a gun is not to hunt or protect from robbers. It's to protect the people from the government! So, if the government has tanks, the militia MUST have equal access to such equipment. INCLUDING nuclear weapons. But no one talks about that because it's a ridiculous idea. But it's in the Constitution! The right to form a militia in case the people must protect themselves from the government.

The founding fathers are held too high on a pedastal. Granted, many did wonderful things, but I dislike any human put too high on a pedastal and people don't want to question what those people did or said. Like the allowing slaves and talking about equality but it only meant white males. They had their faults too. Some were even hypocrites.

Some didn't mind imposing religion on their state, but didn't want religion imposed on their state by the national government. However, if the ruling religion fell from majority then they would've rebelled for sure. But people didn't move back then like they do now. I mean, yeah, Colonists imply movement :), but you know what I mean :)

So, one of the great things about the Constitution (though the Declaraton of Independance is a much better document, imo) is its flexibility. If we can't have a national religion, the state religion doesn't make much sense either. Eventually, National "rights' did trickle down to the people all over the nation.

I'm not sorry for my opinions, but I'm sorry that I went off-topic when this is supposed to be about the great DYP mod, which I'm about to return to :)

Greeko
Jul 06, 2002, 08:09 PM
Version 0.77 has some good updates. Here are my complaints..

Don't get mad if I am wrong but didn't the Manhattan Project occur before the Nuclear Weapons Test? Please change the mod so that when Manhattan Project is built you can do/make Nuclear Weapons Test. Instead of the vice versa.

Edit:
---AND---

I have not read thru this whole thing so i dont know if this has been aleady posted. For me the civlopedia icons for the steam Frigate are messed up or are not there.

---AND---

I don't know if this was an error or not but the Secret Agent upgrades into an Explorer. In my opinion by the time you get the Secret Agent, you probably would not want an Explorer over the Secret Agent.

---AND---

It seems to me that the Airports aren't working properly. I have Airports in all of cities connected to resources or on other continents and then roads to the other cities. But the game only lets me upgrade units in the city with the resources. I'm not real sure on this one...

---AND---

The Governers always give me an "ERROR IN CIV3.EXE" everytime I try do anything with the Governors. That definitely needs to be fixed.

If any of these have been posted before forgive me. :)

kingjoshi
Jul 07, 2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Greeko
Don't get mad if I am wrong but didn't the Manhattan Project occur before the Nuclear Weapons Test? Please change the mod so that when Manhattan Project is built you can do/make Nuclear Weapons Test. Instead of the vice versa.

Edit:
---AND---

I have not read thru this whole thing so i dont know if this has been aleady posted. For me the civlopedia icons for the steam boat/ship are messed up or are not there.

---AND---

I don't know if this was an error or not but the Secret Agent upgrades into an Explorer. In my opinion by the time you get the Secret Agent, you probably would not want an Explorer over the Secret Agent.

In the Excel reference file (http://civ3.bernskov.com/dyp.files/DyP_Ref_v077.zip), the Secret Agent doesn't upgrade to anything, so that must be a mistake.

The Civilopedia got an upgrade I believe in this version. It's still not complete though. Isak has been working hard on it. However, I got used to checking the excel file for just about everything :)

I guess the names could (maybe should) be switched, but the main issue is that once the wonder gets built, then EVERY CIV can built nukes, which is a limitation we can do nothing about currently. I hope they change that in the next patch/editor, but I doubt it. We were hassling the Firaxians at the chat session, but they wouldn't budge on this, IIRC.

Isak
Jul 07, 2002, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el
George Washington was a great military hero. He definitely was, but it is not what we primarily associate him with when we think of him as a great leader, is it? I'm not an american, of course, so I'm perhaps biased, but I primarily think of him as a Founding Father, even though I know he was in the military for almost 40 years before taking office as the first president of the U.S.A.

Anyway, to prevent another extensive debate (I love them but I guess some people think the thread is already quite long ;)), let me just point out that I merely wanted to say that Great Leaders in Civ3 were never meant solely as military leaders. Not by Firaxis, and hopefully not by DyP either :)

Greeko: I will look into it today (just woke up) - It sounds like bugs though :) If you have a savegame with the Airport thingie, please send me one atisak@privat.dk

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 07, 2002, 06:56 AM
Greeko: Are you sure that it's not that you don't have Barracks in the cities you're trying to upgrade the units in? Remember, you need a Barracks (and the resources/technology, of course) to upgrade your land units, a Shipyard for your naval units, and an Airforce Base (isn't that what it's called? I forgot :\) to upgrade air units.

As for the Manhattan Project/Nuclear Weapons Test, can't you make it so that once someone completes the Manhattan Project (Great Wonder), they can (if they have the correct technology/resources) build a Nuclear Weapons Test (Small Wonder), which will allow only their civilization to build nuclear weapons?

Morbius
Jul 07, 2002, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Isak
... some of the leader names (which I threw at RobO in a similar discussion a few days ago) are: George Washington, Lenin, Stalin, Charles DeGaulle....I don't associate these people with Military leadership.

charles de gaulle was a general too. and due to his writings about tank warfare (though ignored by his own government/military), he is today considered as having been a pioneer of modern tank warfare.

not as much as guderian, but still ...

:)

Higher Game
Jul 07, 2002, 10:39 AM
Let's talk game balance, not accuracy in historic terms. No one is capable of blasting through a major project in a year. How long did it take to build the pyramids? Not in a year, not at all.

And if leaders emerge from combat, they are ALL most certainly designed for a military fole. But making a wonder is more significant in the mod. They are stronger and they cost more. They shouldn't be instantly rushed. That is why I suggest leaders be for a military role only.

Government types would be much better if Civ 3 had a system like AC. I have no doubt that they will be balanced when this mod beta is over. Anyway, you really have to take a look at the worker speed issue, because improving the land has much greater importance in this mod than in the actual game. I would just observe industrious civs (like Persia) simply crush the others. The main issue is the abilities (or rather, lack of) of the AI. You can't load up with improvements that the AI won't make!

Despotic governments can force the population into labor camps (Stalin, Mao, etc) to increase production. Some government types deserve bonuses to balance them out. For example, a modern social democracy shouldn't be able to get away with slave markets, but a communist or despotic government should. Workers shouldn't be so slow when they have guns pointed at them.

In fact, a despotic government should actually have faster workers but less growth and high corruption. Can you make cities in a despotism require more food to grow? I'm afraid I already know the answer. :( I hope the new editor will help...

Isak
Jul 07, 2002, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Morbius
charles de gaulle was a general too. Lol - yes he was, but again - do we call him General DeGaulle or President DeGaulle when we speak of him today?
Originally posted by Higher Game
And if leaders emerge from combat, they are ALL most certainly designed for a military fole. But making a wonder is more significant in the mod. They are stronger and they cost more. They shouldn't be instantly rushed. That is why I suggest leaders be for a military role only.Well, I think it's dumb that leaders only come from combat - Kal-El tried to alleviate this a bit by making non-warlike wonders improve the chances of leader appearance, but.. well, we all know where that idea went...:(
Anyway, the discussion is moot - as Kal-El pointed out previously, if we remove the "Finish Improvements" flag, we won't be able to select the "Leader" AI Strategy flag, and thus the AI presumably won't know what to do with them anymore.Government types would be much better if Civ 3 had a system like AC.I won't argue with that...
Despotic governments can force the population into labor camps (Stalin, Mao, etc) to increase production. Some government types deserve bonuses to balance them out. For example, a modern social democracy shouldn't be able to get away with slave markets, but a communist or despotic government should. Indeed - it would be nice if the Government requirements for improvements worked properly.Workers shouldn't be so slow when they have guns pointed at them.For short term labor, pointing guns or using whips has great effect, but the question any Despot using this kind of motivation eventually finds the answer to is: For how long will an under-fed, beat-up, demoralized human being be more effective than a well-fed, healthy and mentally stable one? Not for very long, IMO.

Higher Game
Jul 07, 2002, 12:38 PM
However, you have to assume that fresh workers will be added to the force and weak ones will be sent to the showers. There is always room for one more. Workers should be faster in despotism and you know it.

Isak
Jul 07, 2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
However, you have to assume that fresh workers will be added to the force and weak ones will be sent to the showers. OK, if there was a way to create negative growth in despotism, I guess I would accept this....There is always room for one more. Workers should be faster in despotism and you know it. No, but it is a popular delusion :D. Workers are cheaper in despotism, but that's all...

Higher Game
Jul 07, 2002, 01:17 PM
In democracy, workers need social security, pensions, etc. Theres health care, decent pay, luxuries, and insurence. And lawsuits. ;)

In communism, they are practically slaves. No freedom and no rights. They are only given what they need to live and work more. Eygpt built the pyramids with this kind of mind set. It couldn't have been done in a democracy. No way. There should be higher military support in despotism/communism to reflect the ability of these governments to work their people harder.

Just look at the Chinese sweat shops. They might make $1 a day. Cheap workers and repressive governments go hand in hand. Capitalists are lazier. Look at the weight loss ads you see all the time...

Weaker workers should be a disadvantage of democracy and stronger workers should be an advantage of repressive governments. It would balance the game more.

As for industrial civs, I think a 20% reduction in cost in productive buildings would be good enough. Or the ability to make factories with earlier tech.

RobO
Jul 07, 2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
Let's talk game balance, not accuracy in historic terms. No one is capable of blasting through a major project in a year. How long did it take to build the pyramids? Not in a year, not at all.

And if leaders emerge from combat, they are ALL most certainly designed for a military fole. But making a wonder is more significant in the mod. They are stronger and they cost more. They shouldn't be instantly rushed. That is why I suggest leaders be for a military role only.
I couldn't agree more. :goodjob:
If only Isak ans Kal-el would listem to reason instead of repeating the same old arguments. :slay:

I don't buy that talk about AI behaviour - I have never seen them use a leader to rushbuild, I strongly suspect they always create armies.

Isak
Jul 07, 2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
In democracy, workers need social security, pensions, etc. Theres health care, decent pay, luxuries, and insurence. And lawsuits. ;)You just won't give it a rest, will you? ;)
Now you're using my point - Labor under Despotism is cheaper, but not more effective. In communism, they are practically slaves. No freedom and no rights. They are only given what they need to live and work more. Eygpt built the pyramids with this kind of mind set. It couldn't have been done in a democracy. No way.Of course it could have been done, but would have cost a heck of lot more, so it probably never would have been considered. However, you forget that this is already implemented in the game, via the Pop Rush ability - you get to hurry improvements by killing off your population. If we were to give workers any special benefits under a Despotism (and if we could in fact do this) I would suggest making a Despot Worker, costing half as many shields to build, but also costing 2 or 3 population. And I would still object to making it more effective than under Democracy or any other kind of government. Despots build fast because they can afford to use twice as many workers and don't care how many die along the way.
There should be higher military support in despotism/communism to reflect the ability of these governments to work their people harder.I actually think it should be the other way around - the one thing a Despot cannot neglect is to pay off his military, and pay them big time. If he doesn't he soon finds himself to be about 12" shorter.Just look at the Chinese sweat shops. They might make $1 a day. Cheap workers and repressive governments go hand in hand. Capitalists are lazier. Look at the weight loss ads you see all the time...LOL - are you saying Democracy is fattening?? :D That's a new one, I must admit. I think other factors play a larger part - Chocolate Breakfast Cereals, for example.... :rolleyes:As for industrial civs, I think a 20% reduction in cost in productive buildings would be good enough. Or the ability to make factories with earlier tech. I'm not trying to disagree with you on everything, Higher Game, I promise ;) - but I haven't seen the Industrious civs being excessively dominant yet. Send me some savegames of this, and I will take a look at it though.
Originally posted by RobO
If only Isak ans Kal-el would listem to reason instead of repeating the same old argumentsI only repeat myself because you guys have such a hard time understanding I am right :rolleyes:I don't buy that talk about AI behaviour - I have never seen them use a leader to rushbuild, I strongly suspect they always create armies.There is only the one flag for leaders, so the point is they wouldn't know to use them to create armies either. Besides, the fact that we haven't seen it doesn't really go very far to prove that they don't. AI production is after all one of the hardest things to gather info about.

Morbius
Jul 07, 2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Isak
Lol - yes he was, but again - do we call him General DeGaulle or President DeGaulle when we speak of him today?



hmmm, believe it or not, GENERAL de Gaulle is what the French call him. :)

so we might consider doing the same.

i never heard him being named presidente, actually :)

the same applies for germans -- its either simply de gaulle or GENERAL de gaulle. anything else would be very unusual IMHO.

it might be different in other countries and/or languages, tho.


----

correction: i think president is also sometimes used in german. sometimes ... ;) general is more common nonetheless :P

Pirateiam
Jul 07, 2002, 02:56 PM
First I would like to thank you guys for putting this mod together. I had already shelved Civ 3 and had not played in months when by chance I came across your website with the MOD. From what I have seen I believe Firaxis should hire a few of you to do work on thier expansion package.... but that will not happen (Sid Mier use to have a good team but lately I have been questioning thier quality of work). Anyways that subject is for another thread as for the mod package.

So far most of the issues I have come across have been addressed in other posts but here are a few I have found.

Game: Regent level, Kal El's 180X1080 ver 1.5
8 AI's
Me - German

I won around 1700's majority control

1.) It seems that the AI does not build a Navy at all. Could this be a resource issue (flax) ....but they seemed to have all the resources needed.

2.) Since I used CPT real Civ placement all Civs were on the Europe/Asia/Africa/ Continent and Only I tried to colonize America ( see above as part of the problem) I think the problem is the 180x180 map is too big, maybe I just need to add more AI's. the game was more of a lets see who can colonize the most than it was a balanced game. On these same lines does anybody have a smaller world map with DYP resources available. (please do not tell me to use the Firaxis standard map because whoever did that map needs to take some Geography and historical resource classes)

3.) Tech advances, Tech advances, Tech advances!!! No new problem here same problem as the original. I had Panzer tanks by around 1400 AD with AI keeping up with me more or less. The problem is is as soon as I have built a few units like the swordsman (cool new unit) I have to upgrade them. What I want is a longer time to use some of these new units. The tech advance are just too quick so I am trying somethin after this post. I will start a new game with the scenario edit changed to minimal research time set at 8 turns instead of 3. Does anyone think this will help? Has anyone tried this? Will this only hinder me in tech advances or will it slow the AI down? I just want a game (at Regent level) that has knights and swordsman in the middle ages not tanks and bombers lol ;) .

I started to write down some of the bugs like missing info in the CIVpedia and icons incorrect etc... but most have been addressed, but if you want the list I can post it for you. You guys have done great job so far and if you need any help with anythhing let me know ( Iam Software Engineer, mostly PLC machine type programming but I can hack a little) .

Higher Game
Jul 07, 2002, 02:58 PM
Despotism shouldn't be as horribly weak as it is currently implemented. There has to be SOME benefit to be a bad guy.:whipped:

As it is, pop rushing is ok in Civ 3 but it is weak in DyP because growth is slower. Despots need a break here.

Isak
Jul 07, 2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Morbius
hmmm, believe it or not, GENERAL de Gaulle is what the French call him. :)
:mad:
Either my control of the english language is slipping away, or people are just bent on disagreeing with me today.

Now, he may be called The General, but his achievements as a soldier are still not what we primarily associate with DeGaulle. He is primarily thought of as the former President of France. It is his achievements as a political figure which has given him respect (if that is the correct word for it) outside and certainly, (as you pointed out earlier) within France. In fact, he may have earned the title of General in the military, but it was his work as a politician, which ensured that the title stuck even when he became the President. :p

The same goes for Lenin and Stalin - they both played key roles in the October uprising of 1917, but we still think of them as Political figures, before we think of them as soldiers.

Getting back to Civ3 - if the Finish Improvement flag was to be removed, what would the point be of having a Leader Unit anyway?? Why not just let Army Units appear from combat?

Pirateiam: The fact that you had only 8 civ's on a large map may have played an important part in getting Panzer's around 1400. I used to see this happen very often with regular Civ3, but haven't seen it with DyP yet - but we are still in the process of balancing and need your input, so thanks. OTOH, maybe you're just getting too good for Regent level ;)

Higher Game: Despotism is the default govt. It is supposed to be weak to make sure you have the incentive to discover better forms of government.

And, IMHO a Despot who needs a break, isn't going to be a Despot for very long, cause he hasn't learned the first lesson in the Tyrant's Handbook...... "You don't wait until something is offered to you. You go out and take it yourself." :p

RobO
Jul 08, 2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Isak
There is only the one flag for leaders, so the point is they wouldn't know to use them to create armies either.
First off, there is no problem gamewise with having Leaders that cannot hurry improvements. The two abilities are set separately and independently in the editor.
Getting back to Civ3 - if the Finish Improvement flag was to be removed, what would the point be of having a Leader Unit anyway?? Why not just let Army Units appear from combat?
But it wouldn't have the same feel and I think the Leader by himself is a lot faster than an army. Could be wrong.
The whole army/leader thingy is a broken feature anyway, but it is even more broken when you add the ability to finish improvements.

kingjoshi
Jul 08, 2002, 03:44 AM
Damn! I had this long post and accidently closed the browser, so here I go again.

Pirateiam: Damn, you make me feel pathetic. I'm in the 1500s and only learning Education. Some others have learned Chemistry and Music Theory. People keep attacking me too. And I took some cities from the Persians but after a few turns, it reverted to them. I hate that aspect of Civ3 and think that needs to be redone.

Everyone:
Capitalism has done well over the centuries (quite an understatement and I morally hate capitalism and am close to a marxist!). People shouldn't question whether workers work faster when happy or depressed. People will work with a gun pointed to their head, but only fast enough to not get shot. And they could be sabotaging the project or rebel.

This time around, I'm not going to post about the similarities of communism and tyranny and slavery with Capitalism and Working conditions during the early 1900s with free market. As long as there are people, there will be greed. And long as there are people, you will find some smarter ones than others, and some of those smart ones will be wicked and take advantage of others, regardless of government type. By the way, a lot of sweatshops and stuff in China are run by PRIVATE enterprises. And though many uses bribery of government officials to keep from getting arrested and etc., it's private companies from international firms that outsource to them and keep them in business and make the "entrepreneur" wealthy. In my post that I lost, I went into more detail, but you guys don't want to hear me complain about that.

Back to DYP.

Despotism should get 3 units per town/city/metro as a compromise. Isak, as you pointed out, to stay in power, a despot must pay his solders and generals. That should be *inherent* to the government system. That's why the increased is valid and desparately needed.

Republic has an advantage over democracy in everything except corruption and rate cap, assuming worker rate decreases to 2. If I recall correctly, Kal-el realized that if we do use "pure Democracy" in the Greek sense, they surely can't have that kind of work rate if they keep having to vote all the time. So, to balance the two, war weariness should be swtiched so Republic is 2 and Democracy is 1. However, one could argue that both the Greeks and Romans were quite warlike.

Monarchy also gets shafted and it gets harder to balance them unless we make more changes to the other governments, or at least that what it appears to me. I mean, if we raised the free units for despotism, then Monarchy and Despotism will be very similar.

Another thing, the Hurry type for Monarchy should be Population and not Gold. Pyramids and the Great Wall were built by slaves under the order of people with Divine Right. People were not paid off, but many died to build those "wonders". If I recall correctly, in China, people used to refer the Great wall as the Million deaths or something similar.

This leads me to another point. Those wonders should only be allowed to be built under tyranny type governments. Granted, a contracter would build a Pyramid to be a tomb for a person who paid enough. But seriously, come on. Some wonders only get done when ruthless, self-serving people are at the helm.

Finally, leaders. Connecting leaders to Armies makes sense. Leaders (such as ruthless people with diving righs) also got great wonders built. Whether it makes sense to rush any building is questionable. However, since there is no way to built separate parts for a wonder and put them together, or build them in one place and send them to another (e.g., Statue of Liberty), then rushing makes some sense. Now, my understanding was that leaders rushing is a bonus for those that are of the military mind. In my current game, I just took about 20 turns, hurried a merchant and then built Leonardo's Workshop. If commercial civs get a bonus, then it makes sense that military do as well. And really, few great wonders could be built WITHOUT a leader.

well, that's enough for now. I'll return to playing and then post again later today. I guess I need sleep sometime as well...

RobO
Jul 08, 2002, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by kingjoshi
Despotism should get 3 units per town/city/metro as a compromise. Isak, as you pointed out, to stay in power, a despot must pay his solders and generals. That should be *inherent* to the government system. That's why the increased is valid and desparately needed.
The current limits are set to balance out the economy. Giving Despotism 3 units per city would decrease the maintenance costs too much and would have to be balanced out by other costs.
Republic has an advantage over democracy in everything except corruption and rate cap, assuming worker rate decreases to 2.
That seems to me to be a significant difference.
Monarchy also gets shafted and it gets harder to balance them unless we make more changes to the other governments, or at least that what it appears to me. I mean, if we raised the free units for despotism, then Monarchy and Despotism will be very similar.
I don't agree. Monarchy has no war weariness, less unit maintenance than Democracy and a higher rate cap than Republic.
Another thing, the Hurry type for Monarchy should be Population and not Gold. Pyramids and the Great Wall were built by slaves under the order of people with Divine Right. People were not paid off, but many died to build those "wonders". If I recall correctly, in China, people used to refer the Great wall as the Million deaths or something similar.
This leads me to another point. Those wonders should only be allowed to be built under tyranny type governments. Granted, a contracter would build a Pyramid to be a tomb for a person who paid enough. But seriously, come on. Some wonders only get done when ruthless, self-serving people are at the helm.
There are other ways to build things, but this does raise a point. Your comparison may be unfair.

Kal-el, could you please list a few historical examples of governments that you think fall into the categories Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy? It would help immensely to focus the discussion.

kingjoshi
Jul 08, 2002, 05:51 AM
by Kal-el:
How does this relate to the mod. Well, I can see your point on the work rate for democracies being a bit too high, 3 is a lot for an early government and the increased rate cap and lowered corruption should be enough to distinguish it. That will be changed.

by RobO:
That seems to me to be a significant difference.

Let's say the corruption level balances with the unit advantage. Assuming worker rate are equal, then Republic has a 2 to 1 advantage on Military police. Rate cap is an advantage, but you can still change it to anything on any turn, and though it may be cheating to some degree, you can easily forget and not cheat purposely and change the rate to a level that is allowed. However, I guess the AI doesn't do that. I don't know how the AI handles these rates, so I cant comment I guess. So maybe the war weariness should be the same :)

by RobO:
The current limits are set to balance out the economy. Giving Despotism 3 units per city would decrease the maintenance costs too much and would have to be balanced out by other costs.

I fail to see what's balanced. It seems the intent and accomplishment is to put despotism at too low a level.


I don't agree. Monarchy has no war weariness, less unit maintenance than Democracy and a higher rate cap than Republic.

My mistake. I failed to consider unit cost.


There are other ways to build things, but this does raise a point. Your comparison may be unfair.

Kal-el, could you please list a few historical examples of governments that you think fall into the categories Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy? It would help immensely to focus the discussion.

Unfortunately, leaders only come from combat with Civ3, but there are other types (Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr.) that make strides and make wonders. And even a CEO of a company is a leader in a sense and must have a focus vision and make the company cohesive, etc. But I still think it would make sense (in terms of realism) to have certain wonders (and maybe improvments) only allowed under certain governments.

Can you really imagine hollywood in a theocracy? Maybe nothing but the 700 club and religious movies. Or Universal Suffrage under Despotism, or theocracy (given womens' rights in Arab Muslim world today).

These wonders could be few in number, but it might make the game more interesting. Or more unbalanced. But I'm assuming it'd be more realistic and interesting.

And as far as I know, most governments in history fall under the tyrannical and religious rule type. Greece and Rome are known because they are the exceptions.

There are few "civilizations" but many "kingdoms" and such. I believe the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs were all under religious rule. The North American tribes can't be considered a civilization, I don't think, even though the Iriqous are in the game. I don't know how the chief came to be.

Northern Africa had Egypt and the pharoah and religious rule. the Nubians, who also built pyramids (good ole TLC) were of divine rule. The Zulus and the tribes in Africa were of hereditary rule.

India and that region had kings. China has had an Emperor. Japan also had an emperor. All of divine rule.

Moslem rulers have been (and most Arab Muslims states still are) of the tyrannical rule. And since their "Sultans" and "Sheiks" they also have some religious authortity I believe. Even one of the early splits in Islam was because of an argument about who should be Caliph (a religious leader of Islam after Muhammad).

Monarchy in England changed with the Magna Carta in 1215. But it was still mostly Monarchy and feudalism anyway. the US revolution was big and then the French revolution. So history has little of republics and Democracy. Even though I know the technical difference, I can't think of what the difference in modern times is though (between Republic and democracy).

The US started as a Federal Republic with the Articles of Confederation but that failed miserably and that's why the Constitution gave the federal Government more powers. It seems that Social Democracy is the only form of government (among the free ones) used today.

Anyone feel free to correct me when I'm wrong. Most of the wonders don't belong to or depend upon the government type (Copernicus was prosecuted by the Church but still made discoveries). Emancipation Proclimation happened because Democracy allows slavery, did in Ancient Greece and early US. But a few do.

Greece built the Panthenon and Rome had the great Colisseum. Great works in their own right, but I don't think they're on the scale of the Pyramids in Giza or the Great Wall in China or Chichen Itza for the Mayans. The Taj Mahal in India may be comparable, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what "The Great Buddha" is refering to. There were the two statues in Afghanistan the Taliban destroyed. But Buddhism doesn't have a god, (an Atheist religion!). There are also many large Buddhist temples around Southeast Asia. The Chinese partially adopted Buddhism and kept their Emporer, same with the Japanese. Thailand is a buddhist nation with a history of Kings I believe. So I still hold to the notion that most great monuments were built by a ruler of the non free government types.

okay, back to the game.

RobO
Jul 08, 2002, 06:24 AM
On balancing and unit maintenance:
Some time ago (around 0.4 IIRC) we discovered that the income level was too high. So, we increased the unit and improvement maintenance costs. One of those changes was to decrease the number of units you can have in despotism without paying maintenance. I fail to see the problem with that. Consider it bribes to the commanders if you like. Or privileges to the soldiers. I'm pretty sure it's hard to get soldiers to work without compensation for a despot, whose rule is highly dependent on military support. Also, the cost per unit is 1 in despotism and higher in most other forms of government.

Pirateiam
Jul 08, 2002, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kingjoshi
[B]
Pirateiam: Damn, you make me feel pathetic. I'm in the 1500s and only learning Education. Some others have learned Chemistry and Music Theory. People keep attacking me too. And I took some cities from the Persians but after a few turns, it reverted to them. I hate that aspect of Civ3 and think that needs to be redone.

"Pyramids and the Great Wall were built by slaves under the order of people with Divine Right. People were not paid off, but many died to build those "wonders". If I recall correctly, in China, people used to refer the Great wall as the Million deaths or something similar."

Kingjoshi

1.) I think I know part of the reason why I was so far along in tech in the last game. It was what Isak said I had too few Civs (8) in that game with Kal Els huge map. So I tried a another game (I am in between work projects so i have lots of time too test this mod :D) with every CIV except Rome and Babylon. I changed the minimal tech research time from 3 to 8 and I also changed the AI trade rate to 102. So far I am going at the exact tech advancement speed I want (right along the correct timeline) but..... The AI is way way behind me yet we all have comparable empires (I am GREEK). Here is what I think is happening
a.) I moved the AI trade rate too far and the AI has too actually research the tech instead of whoring it from other AI's. Since it takes a minimal 8 turns for each tech the AI starts to fall behind because it never builds the infrastructure for research quit like a human does.

2.) As for the culture flippping (reverting back to thier nation). One strategy that seems to work well for me is to first do everything you can to stop them resisting (even starve some of them if you have to) Once the resistence is over rush build either an obolesk (dyp) or a liabrary, you have to get some culture in the capured city as soon as possible. This seems to work for me most of the time.

The Pyramids were not built by slaves. This is a myth perpetuated by Hollywood. Archeological digs have proven that the Pyramids were built by thier own people ( I am not saying there were not a few slaves but not the majority) in between harvests. In fact they even had building guilds and such.

Well I am off to try another dyb game. this time I will put the AI trade slider back to default for regent and try a minimal 6 turn research. By the way has anyone tried this before and I am wasting my time? Thanks again for a great mod it brings life back into it. ( I had given up on CIV 3 months ago)

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 08, 2002, 09:01 AM
Pirateiam: I've been testing around with how to slow down the tech advances. Right now, on the World Map (Monarch level), I (and the other leading civs right now) have gotten Feudalism at around 500 BC. I have the minimum tech rate at 8. :(

It seems to have helped slow down the tech rate drastically, but I still need to bring it up a little more. I'm fairly sure that it slows not only your but the AI's technology research. The biggest problem is that the AI shares all of its technologies pretty much as soon as it gets it, and all of the civilizations are researching different technologies, so you go through the technologies pretty quickly. One way to help slow the rate at which the technologies are being discovered, of course, is to start a world war. :D

As for the AI not building any naval units, I haven't had any problems with this. They may not build large fleets like I sometimes do, but I've run into a couple ships here and there in the games I've played. It might just have been that the civs you selected didn't have the 'Build Naval' (is that right?) flag checked for them, so they concentrated on whatever other flag was checked for them (Air, Land). Try the World Map with all civilizations. It's fun. :)

My testing with slowing the tech rate down is going to be slowed for a bit. I just got Warcraft III. :) It has a great story, and the movies look pretty realistic.

kingjoshi
Jul 08, 2002, 01:51 PM
by Pirateiam:
The Pyramids were not built by slaves. This is a myth perpetuated by Hollywood. Archeological digs have proven that the Pyramids were built by thier own people ( I am not saying there were not a few slaves but not the majority) in between harvests. In fact they even had building guilds and such.

thanks for pointing that out. I pictured that mostly Nubians and own lower Egyptian slaves built it. However, I don't know how much of a choice they had in building it :) I mean, the pharoah wanted it built so he has to get people from somewhere :) likewise, I don't know if we could consider the Chinese that built it slaves, but the soldiers that got stranded in the western part of China watching out for Mongols weren't there by choice. They probably weren't soldiers by choice. And considering what people and families must go through to survive in some places around the world, I don't know how far from slavery they are.

I read a book by Upton Sinclair called "Jungle" written in 1906 that was a fictional book that described a family and their struggles that was typical of the time. It's very saddening. Though they came from another country to the US for a better life, their struggles showed that "freedom" has always been for a few. Slowly, times change.

I played on a random map with the Greeks and got stuck in the middle of nowhere (tundra all around me) so I had to move my settler for 10+ turns. I caught up with others, but even with no tech rules changed and with 16 civs, the tech advance was much slower than both Randy's and Pirateiam's games. Maybe I just suck...

Kal-el
Jul 08, 2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by RobO
Kal-el, could you please list a few historical examples of governments that you think fall into the categories Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy? It would help immensely to focus the discussion.
Despotism: This government includes most of your early governments, including those that had kings and queens, i.e. Egypt, Babylon, Persia, etc.

Republic: The Roman Republic is the only example that I can think of. The republic converted back to a Despotism under the Caesars.

Democarcy: Athens and the Iroquois Nation are the most notable Democracies that I can think of.

Monarchy: This represents the Divine Right of Kings type monarchy that was prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages, this is not your earlier form of Monarchy. I am considering moving this into the Middle Ages to reduce confusion.

Theocracy: The most notable theocracy would be the Taliban or the Vatican, but there were several periods throughout history were a civilization was ruled by its religious leaders.

Communism: think USSR or Red China

Fascism: Think Italy under Mousolini, not so much Nazism.

Federal Republic: Think USA

Social Democracy: Think most of Europe today.

Originally posted by kingjoshi
Unfortunately, leaders only come from combat with Civ3, but there are other types (Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr.) that make strides and make wonders. And even a CEO of a company is a leader in a sense and must have a focus vision and make the company cohesive, etc.[quote]
Yes, please think of leaders as more than just military leaders. even though they can only come about through military conquest, that was not Sid's original intent and it is not the intent of the mod. Unfortunatley there is nothing I can do to change the way that leaders are produced. But they should be thought of as political, cultural and any other type of important leader type youi can think of. To help represent this I would like for people to submit lists of historically important people from each civilization that can be used as non-military leaders.
[quote]But I still think it would make sense (in terms of realism) to have certain wonders (and maybe improvments) only allowed under certain governments.[quote]Unfortunately, if we try and limit an improvement or wonder, it can only be limited to one form of government. It is not possible to limit it to several forms of govenment or restrict it from only a few.
[quote]The US started as a Federal Republic with the Articles of Confederation but that failed miserably and that's why the Constitution gave the federal Government more powers. It seems that Social Democracy is the only form of government (among the free ones) used today.The US is still a Federal Republic. We still have 50 independant and sovereign States, though much of the state sovereignty was lost after the Civil War, the US still retains its original federal system. Contrary to what you might think, the Constitution is a strong barrier to Federal Government intervention in State affairs. And we are a republic. The US legislative body, congress, is directly elected by the people of the various states. The two separate houses of Congress, The House of Representative and the Senate, then vote and pass individual legislation without direct input from their constituents. Congress is voted in to make what we hope are the decisions that we as the people of the United States hope that they would make.

Higher Game
Jul 08, 2002, 03:24 PM
Rome was still quite powerful after going back to despotism. You shouldn't be hurt so bad by staying in despotism.

The draft should be available in monarchy. When you believe your king is sent from God, you would die to serve him. Same with theocracy.

Soldiers have to be payed in a republic. There should be more disadvantages to builders. As if despots already have it bad, you need to become a republic to build the many new improvements added in DyP. Pop rushing simply cannot work. Gold is easier to get and it costs much less to rush buy improvements. Face it! Being a "good guy" is too overpowered. Greece was never a huge military power, and it was lucky to have its culture spread. It just got lucky at battles like Thermopylae, and it never had the muscle Rome did.

Despots should be slightly bad off, but monarchy should be about = to republic. Communism should be = to social democracy. The governments shouldn't be that different in the game, for both balance and usefulness to the AI.

kingjoshi
Jul 08, 2002, 04:19 PM
by Kal-el
Despotism: This government includes most of your early governments, including those that had kings and queens, i.e. Egypt, Babylon, Persia, etc.

Republic: The Roman Republic is the only example that I can think of. The republic converted back to a Despotism under the Caesars.

Democarcy: Athens and the Iroquois Nation are the most notable Democracies that I can think of.

Monarchy: This represents the Divine Right of Kings type monarchy that was prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages, this is not your earlier form of Monarchy. I am considering moving this into the Middle Ages to reduce confusion.

Theocracy: The most notable theocracy would be the Taliban or the Vatican, but there were several periods throughout history were a civilization was ruled by its religious leaders.

Communism: think USSR or Red China

Fascism: Think Italy under Mousolini, not so much Nazism.

Federal Republic: Think USA

Social Democracy: Think most of Europe today.


There are so few examples of most of these types of governments, especially in terms of history, that we're forced to over-generalize. Despotism and Monarchy being the exceptions.

Isn't Monarchy and Despotism the main forms of government from the fall of Rome to the creation of the US almost all over the world?

What significance would the magna carta have in your assessment to Monarchy in the middle ages?

by Kal-el
The US is still a Federal Republic. We still have 50 independant and sovereign States, though much of the state sovereignty was lost after the Civil War, the US still retains its original federal system. Contrary to what you might think, the Constitution is a strong barrier to Federal Government intervention in State affairs. And we are a republic. The US legislative body, congress, is directly elected by the people of the various states. The two separate houses of Congress, The House of Representative and the Senate, then vote and pass individual legislation without direct input from their constituents. Congress is voted in to make what we hope are the decisions that we as the people of the United States hope that they would make.

I was comparing the Constitution to the Articles of Confederation. The difference is noticable. Granted, the 10th amendment and the power of each state. But I guess the US is viewed more as "America" than "United States". And I think that's by not just people outside of here, but also by most Americans (United Statian just doesn't sound right :) ). Maybe I make the bad assumption that most "democracies" are broken down into territories of some sort. Maybe they do but don't have "statehood" status or a governer. Maybe I need to learn more about foreign democracies for better comparisons. I just imagined that since the US "sort of" copied the House of Lords and House of Commons and the like, that Great Britain would be quite similar (though they have a prime minister elected by the parliament and a monarch).

by Higher Game
The draft should be available in monarchy. When you believe your king is sent from God, you would die to serve him. Same with theocracy.

I thought of that as well (in the post that got erased) and noticed that Monarchy and Despotism do get 1 draft each, whereas Republic and Democracy do not (in the excel file). However, I would assume that as many people would fight and die for their democracy as they would their king. Though more would fight for "aggresion" under monarchy and probably more would fight for "defense" in democracy. However, I agree that despotism should be made better.

beorhtwulf
Jul 08, 2002, 04:33 PM
Well, since somebody on the DyP team foolishly thanked people for input.... ;)

I've played several v.7x games on huge/monarch/16 civs. I've generally stopped in the middle ages, so my comments are only on the early game. I've played some warlike games, some builder, a bunch of different civs. The tech rate seems to track history pretty well, though civs that are not in the tech loop generally fall behind.

You've said you're rebalancing things for the next release, but let me give some suggestions. Obelisks seem too expensive. They're the same price as basilicae, which provide double the culture and a smiley besides. In the early game they're prohibitively expensive for most cities, and then they're obsolete. Similarly horse archers, three times the cost of elephant riders and only marginally more effective.

I also tend to think barbarians are too strong. In the early (pre-iron) game, they seem invincible (i.e., I can't even take a hit point off them with any unit I can build). Granted it's an incentive to build walls, but if you can't clear them out at all you've basically lost the game. I set the Raider to 2/1/1 and the Rider to 3/2/2, which I think is powerful but not invincible.

I really like both the 3 food/pop and the 2x road movement. Re the roads, sea travel was faster than overland until the development of railroads. Don't change it.

As to governments -- and I'll try to avoid philosophy here -- I think the basic idea of one primitive government succeeded by three intermediate forms, one peaceful, one warlike, and one mixed, is basically good. If anything I think Monarchy comes too late. I think of Monarchy as being basically Despotism with a better bureaucracy: similar in spirit but more efficient. Realism aside, if Monarchy is a medieval tech, then you are forced to a peaceful govt in late antiquity, which penalizes warriors. If Despotism is brought up to the same overall effectiveness as Rep/Dem to compensate, then warriors are set from the start, while builders have to research a bunch of techs before they can get any momentum.

It is a good point about pop rush being less effective in DyP because of the slower growth rate. Maybe the shields/citizen rate could be increased a bit to compensate?

This advice is of course worth what you paid for it, and if you ignore it I can always just change settings myself.

Kudos again for a great mod!

Beorhtwulf

Isak
Jul 08, 2002, 05:02 PM
Drafting: Remember that drafting in Civ3 makes people unhappy. It is not meant to represent voluntarily agreeing to fight for "King and Country" - unless you mean, voluntarily at gun-point.

Beorhtwulf: Yes yes, more input, keep it coming :D

The Basilica/Obelisk/Temple costs are changed in the next version - the new costs should make a bit more sense ;)

Horse Archer/Elephant Rider: You may have a point - lets wait for OFL's verdict.

Govt's: Some good observations. I don't think I'll get shot for revealing that there is a new early government in the works already. (Our Fearless Leader is, after all, a benevolent leader... isn't that true, Kal-El....??)

Pop Rush: I like the fact that it is painful to the ruler - it should be a last resort, not "the way we do things around here" in my opinion - that is one of my biggest gripes with Civ3. Of course, if the AI can't handle it, we may have to do something - but lets see what's in the nice patch we will surely be getting from Firaxis one of these days.. :scan:

Editing the BIC yourself: If you do that, we'll send a couple of them nasty Barbarians over to your house, one of these days..... ;)

Kal-el
Jul 08, 2002, 05:39 PM
Americans are known as both Americans and with the United States we are referred to as citizens of our State of residence. Most people I know are extremely proud of their states and in fact there are rivalries, sometimes heated, between the individual states. usually those rivalries are played out on the football field or the baseball diamond, but not always.

The 10th Amendment is HUGE! It is one of the most important clauses in the Constitution. The United States Federal Governemnt is a governemnt of enumerated powers. that means if its not inthe Constitution it doens't have the authority to do it. The 10th Amendment, which almost didn't make it into the constitution because the founding fathers thought it was self evident, re-emphasizes this fact, by restating that all powers not specifically granted the federal government are reserved to the States themselves.

The distinction between a federal system and other forms of government is that a federal system is a government of a union of states in which sovereignty is divided between a central authority and component state authorities. Substantial power over matters affecting the people as a whole, such as external affairs, commerce, coinage, and the maintenance of military forces, are usually granted to the central government. Varieties of federation include the Swiss, where the federative principle is carried into the executive branch of government; the Australian, which closely reflects American states' rights and judicial doctrines; and the Canadian, which reverses common federative practice and allots residuary rights to the dominion government. Other examples of federal governments are the German Empire of 1871 and the present state of Germany, modern Russia, Mexico, South Africa, and India.

beorhtwulf,
the horse archer will be lowered to 90 shields. It is an alternative to the knight. Knight: 6/3/2 cost 90. Horse Archer: 4/2/3 3/1/1 cost 90.

Monarchy will stay in the Ancient Age, but that whole era's tech tree will be reworked to incorporate the new government. (Isak, can I see you for a moment ... :whipped: :))

As for barbarians I am reluctant to change them right now. I personally haven't found them to be prohibitively dangerous.

Don't worry about the food and the roads. They will stay like that for as long as I am in charge. (hope there's no revolution, better keep my people appeased.)

Obelisks do not become obsolete.

beorhtwulf
Jul 08, 2002, 05:55 PM
Isak: get the icon numbers right, and I won't edit the BIC. ;) Those arctic olive groves were kinda weird.

Kal-el: By 'obsolete' I meant "no longer worth building 'cuz for 50 shields I could have a Basilica instead" rather than "no longer available" -- sorry. But Isak says it's already addressed, so never mind.

kingjoshi
Jul 08, 2002, 06:25 PM
by Kal-el
Americans are known as both Americans and with the United States we are referred to as citizens of our State of residence. Most people I know are extremely proud of their states and in fact there are rivalries, sometimes heated, between the individual states. usually those rivalries are played out on the football field or the baseball diamond, but not always.

First, thanks for some new information. However, as to the point above, there are different states and regions etc, and sometimes cultures differ. People in NY, Cali and Texas seem to be the biggest in terms of being "proud" of their state. As a Buckeye fan and always hating the "Damn state up North", I have some first hand knowledge of this. But it's so small. It's one thing to call a game the Civil War "Oregon vs Oregon State in College Football" and other rivalries, but we have to keep that in perspective. Off the field, to most people in the country, it's not much. Granted, people have their affinities, but the pride in city, state or region is so minute compared to National Pride (and sometimes arrogance). Maybe it's because I've lived near college campuses my whole life and met so many out of staters who came from elsewhere and then plan to go somewhere else (not home state).

Most amendments to the Consitution, and clauses of the constitution are huge :) And as you've stated, states rights took a beating during the civil war. I mean, if you have independant states, one would assume that if many decided to leave a federation, they should have the right. That is more evident with a vote in Quebec I guess. As I mentioned before, I assumed that France, UK and most other European countries were similar. I always hear of UK being Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England, and so I probably made a bad assumption...

Tiefling
Jul 09, 2002, 09:25 AM
kingjoshi: The UK is moving in the direction of a Federal system, with a recent government white paper announcing the intention for Regional Assemblies in the various parts of England, to parallel the existing Scottish Parliament and Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies. I'm not sure that this is mirrored in other European states - if anything, the EU is moving slowly in the direction of becoming a single federal republic. I've not heard of any serious devolution movement in France, for example. (Although I'm sure there's someone on these boards who knows the answer better.)

Perhaps Civ3/DyP should have a Constitutional Monarchy government type, to reflect countries like the UK, Sweden, etc? I'm not sure what precise characteristics such a government should have. I'd tentatively suggest medium war-weariness, efficient workers, rushing by payment, excellent resistance to propaganda. I'm not sure about the military side of things, though.

Thoughts from a DyP fan and former lurker.

Pirateiam
Jul 09, 2002, 09:37 AM
Just ended my dyp game in the year 1300. I am still fiddling with trying to slow tech rate down. I was playing Kal Els map with all CIV's at regent level. I had changed the min tech research time to 6 instead of 3. Still did not slow it down (only the human player I think). By 1300 I was part way in Industial era. I also think that the minimal research slider only corresponds to the human player since I had the most powerful CIV with 70% of wonders and pretty much all the science wonders ( I was Greek) and I was always behind 3 to 4 techs and would have to buy them from the AI players. I only needed 30% science level to keep every tech to the minimal 6 turns. After trying many things I have come to the conclusion that all research techs need to be increased by at least 35%. What do the MOD designers think?
By the way the biggest reason this bothers me is the fact that you guys made all these cool new units but I never get to use half of them because they are obsolete too quickly :(.

Isak
Jul 09, 2002, 09:55 AM
Pirateiam: Could you possibly send me a few savegames - preferrably 3-4 spread out over the entire period. I need to check how the AI has performed in your games, to find out what it is we need to balance. TIA :) Just email them to me at isak@privat.dk

Pirateiam
Jul 09, 2002, 10:52 AM
Isak,

I just sent you a few saves. Unfortunately they were were all close to the same time. I will restart another game and save through out the game time (every 30 turns?) so you can look at how the MOD works over time. I will play at regent level as the greeks and will not war monger so as to let all the CIVs develop. I will go back to your origianl MOD without changing any of the sliders this time. I will try to complete the whole game then you can see how it goes through the whole game ( I do not know how many complete games you guys have tested with the new MOD patch)
I have lots of time to test this MOD (VACATION YEAH) so if you want me to try anything specific let me know.

Morbius
Jul 09, 2002, 04:04 PM
a constitutional monarchy might be a good idea.
i generally think that having more different forms of government would be nice. it might kinda add to strategy.

hmm, i just finished another game, and im a bit worried:

in no game ever did i see an AI controlled warship. not a single warship -- never ever.
can it be coincidence? i played games with several islands, but apart from some occasional transports, i didnt see any ships ... neither ancient ones nor modern ones.

sebanaj
Jul 09, 2002, 04:15 PM
and it crashed when starting the game, and also crashed the game every time i tried to start a new game, even with no scenario.


I had to reinstall .76 version of the mod to make it work.

Kal-el
Jul 09, 2002, 04:23 PM
we are currently discussing new forms of government that might be added to the mod. the problem comes in distinguishing them from one another.

not sure what to do about the lack of navy. we can't set the governor to build everything often. we are going to set the governors of all the civs to build 'build' improvements often in hopes that this will increase their industrial might which will in turn allow them to build more units and more improvements more quickly.

Kal-el
Jul 09, 2002, 04:30 PM
here is what i have put together based on the above discussion.

new form of default government: Chiefdom

3 new techs:
Urbanization
Caste System
Autocracy

Rename Divine Right Feudalism (Feudalism has been renamed Vassalage)

The rest you can see from the image

Kal-el
Jul 09, 2002, 04:34 PM
the above image is just a rough draft. the final screen will look fit in with the other images.

beorhtwulf
Jul 09, 2002, 06:11 PM
So has Monarchy (the govt) been eliminated, moved to the middle ages, or am I just not seeing it?

Hawk2112
Jul 09, 2002, 11:57 PM
I'm seeing here a lot of people saying that they are having tech too quickly. :confused: I am playing 256X256 maps, with 8 civs (well, only 4 now other than mine....hey I got hungry! :D ) on the lowest level, and I am in the year 1988 and I still haven't gotten nukes. I adjusted the map size, but not the tech number. Perhaps dialing that back a bit will help with tech too soon. :beer:

Dingocat85
Jul 10, 2002, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Isak
Pirateiam: Could you possibly send me a few savegames - preferrably 3-4 spread out over the entire period. I need to check how the AI has performed in your games, to find out what it is we need to balance. TIA :) Just email them to me at isak@privat.dk

While we're on a roll here, I've got my own savegame (attatched to this post), whose 'AI's are rather odd. Two of them, at least - the Japanese, and the Zulu.

I have Rights of Passage with both the Japanese & Zulu. They're both polite with me.
I have left activated on this turn (1485 AD) two Spearmen:

Spearman One is sitting in Zulu territory. Spearman Two is activated on a Longboat, poised to enter Japanese territory. I just activated the Zulu-dwelling Spearman to show you where he was - just fortify him, he's cool where he is :cool: . But move the other Spearman into Japanese territory. While the AI's doing its turn, notice:
(1) the Spearman with the Zulu, is completely ignored.
(2) the Japanese send in a horse archer, & declare war.

The thing is, As long as no land units enter Japanese territory, theres no War.

Any ideas? Is this my fault, or the AI's? :confused:

Regards,
Dingocat85

PS: Post #950, Woohoo! :D

Dingocat85
Jul 10, 2002, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by Isak
Pirateiam: Could you possibly send me a few savegames - preferrably 3-4 spread out over the entire period. I need to check how the AI has performed in your games, to find out what it is we need to balance. TIA :) Just email them to me at isak@privat.dk

While we're on a roll here, I've got my own savegame (attatched to this post), whose 'AI's are rather odd. Two of them, at least - the Japanese, and the Zulu.

I have Rights of Passage with both the Japanese & Zulu. They're both polite with me.
I have left activated on this turn (1485 AD) two Spearmen:

Spearman One is sitting in Zulu territory. He's just activated so you can see where he is - he's cool where he is :cool: , just fortify him.
Spearman Two is activated on a Longboat, poised to enter Japanese territory. Move this guy into Japanese territory. While the AI's doing its turn, notice:
(1) the Spearman with the Zulu, is completely ignored.
(2) the Japanese send in a horse archer, & declare war on the other guy.

The thing is, As long as no land units enter Japanese territory, theres no War.

Any ideas? Is this my fault, or the AI's? :confused:

Regards,
Dingocat85

PS: Post #950, Woohoo! :D

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 10, 2002, 10:25 AM
Well, now that we're giving savegames to show our problems... :D

Here's a savegame at 30 AD (I was hoping for 10 AD, but wasn't watching the date. Oops!). This is on Kal-El's World Map v1.5.

For some strange reason, the Japanese are in Ireland. This seems to happen in 1/2 of my games. I have no idea what it is that is causing this. I might use that Reveal Map feature in Civ3MultiTool on a few World Map games just to watch what the Japanese are doing for this to happen.

Also, you can see that the main leading civs (me being one of them) are researching technologies a bit ahead of the historically accurate time period. I think the reasons for this are:

1) There's only one era of technologies to cover a large part of the game (Ancient Times), 4000 B.C. to about 1000 AD (is that right?). Is there some way to make the technologies just in the Ancient Times cost more, to slow it down a bit?
and 2) The difficulty I'm playing on. I play on Monarch difficulty, so the AI is getting more and larger cities faster (and therefore technology/gold) than the AI would on a lower difficulty.

The savegame is attached to this post.

Also, I believe one big problem in this mod is that there are so many buildings, which is good, but many of them cost so much that they take a very long time to build. I think that some building costs need to be lowered a bit, so you can keep up with the upgrades you're getting from technologies, and afford to stop building improvements/wonders and make an army.

I lowered the cost of the Obelisk to 2 (same as Harbor), which I think is fair. I also lowered the Barbarian Rider's stats to 3/3/2, so Pikemen have an even larger chance of defeating them. It just wasn't fair. :)

Edit: Oh yes, I forgot to add this! The Air Ship's defense should be lowered to 1, or even 0. If I remember correctly, the Air Ships had practically no way to defend themselves when up in the air (against other airplanes, that is), and were fairly easy targets for the airplanes of that time. And they weren't really used for bombing, mostly scouting.

Kal-el
Jul 10, 2002, 10:29 AM
beorhtwulf,

Monarchy is still available in the Ancient Age, just changed the name from Divine Right to Feudalism.

Despotism is now available with Autocracy.

Morbius
Jul 10, 2002, 11:04 AM
airships were used for bombing in WWI.
Paris suffered regular raids during March 1915, and London experienced its first attack in May 1915.

those zeppelins could take lots and lots of bullets before they were going down, so lowering the defense might not be a good idea.
they were pretty vulnerable to the heavier guns, firing from the ground, tho ... hmmmm

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 10, 2002, 01:05 PM
Okay, well, maybe they were used for bombing. It makes sense, they're high up in the air, somewhat hard to shoot down...

But I remember watching a TV show about Manfred von Richtofen, and when they talked about the airplanes running across enemy air ships, the air ships were pretty much easy targets for the airplanes (that is, if the airplane was armed). Anyways, I think the Defense attribute represents the unit's ability to fight off the enemy, and not just take a beating from it and survive. I can't really picture an air ship shooting down an air plane. :)

Morbius
Jul 10, 2002, 01:42 PM
actually, i was wondering whether the zeppelins had machin gun platforms or something ... i guess ive once read it somewhere, but im not sure anymore ...

Pirateiam
Jul 10, 2002, 02:59 PM
Well so far my test game has been pretty interesting. It is the year 1100 AD. I lead the scoring by 300 to 400 with Egypt right behind me ( I am Greek). Right now most of the Civs are about half way through the Industrial age. The only remaining lands to colonize are parts of the South American continent and Australia. One good thing that I have seen is for some reason this game I have seen much more AI fleet activity ( there are 4 of us from Europe all colonizing South America at the same time, which should get interesting soon). I had flagged this issue before and I think it has to do with the flax resource. Very few wars so far I have only been in two both started by the AI. I have tried to remain passive so as to watch the AI perform. The problem with too fast of tech really comes down to a missing time period. Why did Firaxis jump from the Middle ages to the Industrial age skipping one of the most important ages???? Ok I bet all of you guys can guess what it was…… Yep the Renaissance or the Enlightenment, the period that got us to the Industrial age. Does anyone know if the upcoming editor patch will allow us to add eras? If not I think DYP should really think about increasing the late ancient techs and early industrial age techs to compensate. Isak - I have over 20 saves so far and will hopefully finidh this game tonight and will e-mail you the saves and a list of bugs, typos, missing or incorrect wonder graphics etc…. I will then start a random map as you asked and try that. One thing would you guys mind if I edited a bunch of the techs to increase rate and try that after the random test? As to Japan having weird starting places that is a CPT issue. Most maps did not allow Japan the ability to start on there home Island so I do not think the CPT sets them up in the right place.

Kal-el
Jul 10, 2002, 03:47 PM
First a question for those of you who are still burning through the tech tree at an alarming rate: Has DyP at least slowed this down a little compared to the origianl game?

The ancient age seems to represent the Copper Age 5000 to 2000 BC, the Bronze Age 2000 BC to 0 AD and the Dark Ages 0 to 900 AD. Thats roughly 6000 years of history crammed into the first era.

The middle ages represents what we consider the middle ages 900-1350 AD, the Renaisance 1350 to 1600 AD and the Age of Enlightenment 1600 to 1800. So that's 900 years in the second era.

The Industrial age is roughly 1800 to 1950. Doing the math thats 150 years in the third era.

And then the modern era is supposed to go from 1950 to 2050. So 100 years.

From what i have heard, it will not be possible to add eras.

As for Japan, I have played as the Japanese and started on the Islands.

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 04:01 PM
Obelisks have no maintenence. Free buildings should be very expensive, and wonders that grant free buildings (Big Ben, Sun Tzu, etc) should be very hard to obtain. I like the idea of requiring a resource to make a wonder, but it would be even better to require a certain # of resources.

For example, a normal civ could make a 6/2/2 knight but someone with 4 iron should make a 6/3/2 knight. Or you should require a lot of copper to make Big Ben. That kind of stuff.

Governments shouldn't be based off of what we have today. There should be 3 main types of governments. One should be military based, one should be building based, and another should be trade based. Governments that incorportate too much of one or a combination of them tend to be too powerful. Also, a government should never go obsolete. Social Democracy is comes after regular Democracy, but some would argue that ordinary Democracy is better. The early governments should be very different but the later ones shouldn't be worlds different from their earlier forms.

For example, Communism and Despotism shouldn't be much different. Democracy shouldn't be much different from Social Democracy. Monarchy should be between Despotism and Democracy. Theocracy is too similar to the overpowered Civ 2 Fundamentalism. Theocracy needs a change, really.

Also, DyP needs less freak units like the Crusader or the Cavalry. Industrial and Modern units have too many hps, and this makes combat very long. I do like watching the battles, though. So I think that units should have less hps and less cost, to reflect smaller groups of soldiers. As is, 1 Cavalry could represent 100,000 soldiers. That is why they should be cheaper and have less hps.

BTW, I just came back from a trip to north GA. I haven't played DyP for about a week, so be easy on me. ;)

Morbius
Jul 10, 2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Higher Game
As is, 1 Cavalry could represent 100,000 soldiers. That is why they should be cheaper and have less hps.

100k? and then they should be cheaper? wow.

i like to call each of my units a division, since a really large empire might have a few hundred units at most, or am i wrong?

several hundred divisions (division means roughly 10,000 soldiers) does is a very large army (several million soldiers).

but dozens of millions of soldiers .... that would be exaggerated IMO.

so saying one unit consists of 100,000 soldiers would mean making it more expansive, since you shouldnt be allowed to have some 50 million soldiers IMHO.

btw, i think they are expensive enough.

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 04:38 PM
Hey, 100,000 soldiers is HUGE. Considering it takes 1 gold to pay off a unit, I would think Civ 3 had just a few thousand soldiers in mind per unit. If a spearman can beat a tank, I would think it represents an army of spearmen fighting a single tank. Tanks are very expensive, so there might only be 1 or 2 in a major battle.

I just want units to be cheaper and weaker to represent the fact that 100,000 men are divided into many, many smaller denominations. Some units cost as much as small wonders. It's too much.

Also, having cheaper and weaker units would weaken the military support feature. Because trade is more common in DyP (1 in grassland BEFORE roads!) I think military support should be slightly weaker. I think despotic governments should have more support and the units become weaker to make it more difficult for a peaceful government to become a military machine. You just don't see Democracies conquering the world.

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 04:41 PM
To put it more clearly, I meant that the power and price of the units suggests that they represent an extremely large group of people. I just want this to be changed because it gets silly by the modern age, when you look at the cost of units and what they are capable of doing.

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 10, 2002, 05:57 PM
Alright...here's a few more small things I've found in the game...

For some strange reason, the Universal Suffrage wonder is called Universal_Suffrage. That needs to be fixed. There are a few units who have graphics that are messed up in the civilopedia. They are the Air Ship, Barbarian Rider, Jeep, and Steam Frigate.

Also, Morbius mentioned the word Zeppelin in an earlier post when talking about Air Ships, and that got me to thinking, wouldn't Zeppelin be a better name for the Air Ship? Air Ship just sounds silly.

When you look at the information for the Energy Grid wonder (Effects part), you'll notice that the code for a link that is supposed to be there did not work. I think it's either that you forgot to put a '$' in front of the word LINk when doing that. But it could've just been that you didn't capitalize the 'k' in LINk. I'm not sure.

The Bomber line of airplanes have too much defense. I know the WW2 bombers could defend themselves against fighters to some degree, but people always knew that the bombers didn't have much of a chance of getting back to the airfield without air support from fighters (that is, if there will be enemy fighters/AA guns). Maybe lower the bomber's defense so that they can fight off very obsolete fighters, but also not stand much of a chance against more modern fighters? That would make things better, in my opinion.

Lastly, I mentioned having obsolete units (especially naval units) upgrade into more modern units. I'll put down how I have them upgrading right now, just as a recommendation. :)

Unit / Upgrades to

Brig / Corvette
Corvette / Steam Frigate
Frigate / Steam Frigate
Man-O-War / Steam Frigate
Steam Frigate / Destroyer
Privateer / Destroyer
Iron Clad / Destroyer
Jet Fighter / Advanced Fighter
F-15 / Advanced Fighter

That's all. Just what I have it set to. :)

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 06:48 PM
It would be a good idea to have SOME dead ends on the unit tree! Having a horseman upgrade to a hum-vee (or whatever) is ridiculous. Gold is noticibly easier to get, with grassland having 1 natural gold and additional bank improvements. I mean, theres the toll house, bazaar, marketplace, bank, stock exchange, guild hall, skyscraper, you see a pattern here? Currency is easy to get here, just making the despotic government EVEN WEAKER.

Pop rushing needs a boost, especially in a modern government like communism. Units should hit a dead end in upgrading because gold is so plentiful. Steam frigates would be an example. And, of course, pop rushing should become stronger later on.

A size 1 city has 10,000 population, I think, but a size 12 has 500,000 people. I'm just guessing, but the city size is a representation of the population growing to certain goals. I mean, rushing an improvement from size 12 to 11 should have more power than rushing from 2 to 1.

I seriously doubt if the editor would allow this. ;) Making communism stronger by getting more shields per pop rush (which makes since. Rushing nuclear plant guys will give more than rushing mill workers. Duh!) Is there a way to make pop rushing stronger because gold is so easy to get? DyP is such an immense mod I doubt if we really will finish balancing it. :)

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 06:49 PM
Yay! Made warlord.

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 10, 2002, 07:13 PM
It would be a good idea to have SOME dead ends on the unit tree!

Well, I just want the build list to be cleaner, and there are a LOT of units available with this mod. I hate having a bunch of obsolete units that don't stand a chance against the more modern units taking up room in the build list...

Having a horseman upgrade to a hum-vee (or whatever) is ridiculous.

I haven't suggested units upgrading across entire eras.

Now, if they allow you to make units obsolete when you research a certain technology, then that would be a much better alternative than to just having them upgrade to another unit. But that's all you can do right now...

Rushing nuclear plant guys will give more than rushing mill workers. Duh!)

Why? The "mill workers" do much more manual labor than the "nuclear plant guys" do...

Higher Game
Jul 10, 2002, 07:52 PM
Exactly! You would have to REALLY have to work the nuclear plant guys hard enough to kill them! The benefits should be greater!

A serious flaw with Civ 3 (and currently DyP) is that gold rules over pop rushing in long term usefulness. You should be able to rush more after the workers start working in factories, power plants, and manufacturing plants. It only makes sense.

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 10, 2002, 09:19 PM
Take a second to think about it. If you do more manual labor, you're most likely healthier than you would be if you were just sitting down all day (if your diet and everything is good enough). So, the healthier "mill workers" would be able to work longer and harder than the "nuclear plant guys". And, especially under Communism, if you don't work as long and hard as the person in charge there wants you to, you'll most likely find yourself with a big hole in your head. ;)

RobO
Jul 11, 2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Randy24242424
Well, I just want the build list to be cleaner, and there are a LOT of units available with this mod. I hate having a bunch of obsolete units that don't stand a chance against the more modern units taking up room in the build list...
I haven't suggested units upgrading across entire eras.
Now, if they allow you to make units obsolete when you research a certain technology, then that would be a much better alternative than to just having them upgrade to another unit. But that's all you can do right now..

Actually, if you set e.g. the Steam Frigate to upgrade to the Destroyer and uncheck the "Upgrade Unit" checkbox, then the Steam Frigate should simply disappear from the build list when Destroyer appears. I'm even pretty sure it works ;)

RobO
Jul 11, 2002, 01:17 AM
Randy24242424 and Pirateiam, I'm impressed by your testing efforts. The next release is approaching (Isak willing ;) ) and if you would like to join the testing team then just send me an email at robert.olesen@get2net.dk.

The reward? Everlasting fame, a quote in the readme (I think, Kal_el and Isak maintains that one) and a sneak preview of the next version.

What are you waiting for?

Other volunteers are ofc. also welcome :D

Pirateiam
Jul 12, 2002, 07:13 PM
Well I finished a full game of DyP Kal's 180x180 last night wow that took a long time and boy does it slow down some later in the game. I won on a dipomatic vote. I have over 30 saves and a bug list. I will E-mail some of the saves and the bug list to Isak. Just a few quick thoughts. The Secret agent unit cannot be made. I had all requirements but it never showed in the build order. Also what the heck does the radar unit do for you??? Only thing you could do with it is airdrop it in enemy territory and watch it be destroyed lol. Over all it was fun and this MOD has losts of potential but..... It needs major balancing. There are just too many positive (happiness and shield increase) buildings to build. I had cities with constant "King is great" celebrations and I mean 3.7 million pop with everyone happy (soemthing like 16 out of 20 of my cities where constantly celebrating. The biggest problem is that the AI did not build like I did and therefore after the middle ages I was able to build every single wonder. Just greased everyones palms while I built the UN wonder and everyone loved me. I think the AI is struggling with all the new buidlings. One thought that Isak had is that Kals map had too many goodies on it so I am off to try a random map. Oh yeah, RobO sure I will join the team and I will e-mail you shortly.

RobO
Jul 13, 2002, 01:02 AM
Thanks a lot, Pirateiam. We don't get a lot of playthrough testings, so this is very much appreciated.
I'm curious about the tech advancement rate in the earth map versus a random map, so I'm glad you're starting a random map. Kal-el is planning to add ca. 15 new techs to slow down the tech advancement, and it has me a bit worried. I like the techs, though, so we can always adjust the cost if necessary.

Isak
Jul 13, 2002, 02:36 AM
Trying to catch up with everything after a week as a victim of Forced Labor ;)

Originally posted by Morbius
in no game ever did i see an AI controlled warship. not a single warship -- never ever.That's been reported in some of the earlier versions of the mod too - back then it turned out to have nothing to do with resources, so I'm quite puzzled about it. I have a feeling the AI doesn't always build a lot of ships in regular Civ3, but until I have proof, I can assure you this thing is being investigated - i'll update the Known Bugs List (http://civ3.bernskov.com/bugs.asp) list with it later tonight.

Sebanaj: Did you get v.0.77 to work?

Dingocat85: Thnx for the save - I will look into that a.s.a.p.

Randy242424: Thnx for the save - you may want to know the Obelisk will cost 40 shields in the next version (at least that's what's currently planned). About the Air Ship, you may have a point about the defense value - that's Kal-El's decision however so I can't make any promises :)
Also, thnx for the bug reports

Pirateiam: Looking forward to all those saves :goodjob:

Higher Game: Unfortunately there's no way to make Improvements or anything else require a specific amount of resources. The game only cares whether you have the resources or not - it doesn't check the amount :(
Pop rushing will get a slight boost in the next version, and Gold Rushing (?) will get a slight knock down the ladder. There's no way to change the effectiveness over the course of a game though, but since cost of improvements rise, the effectiveness naturally decreases over time, as you will have to rush more and more to finish improvments.

Phew - think I tied up all loose ends now - if I missed any, plz post again or email me. Also be sure to check out the Known Bugs list (link above) and email me if you think I've missed something.

pap1723
Jul 13, 2002, 04:09 AM
There is a way to make sure that you have at least 2 or 3 of a resource. Just when it says resource needed can't you put 2 oil and 1 iron and then will it not require 2 oil?
or will it still be only 1?

Pap

Isak
Jul 13, 2002, 04:23 AM
Pap: We haven't really checked, but I'm almost sure it will have no effect - I will test it though (unless someone beats me to it...hint, hint ;) )

medwynn
Jul 13, 2002, 04:50 AM
Isak. I've played through an entire game until retirement as the Japanese at Cheiftain level on a hugh map with 16 civs. I very deliberately stayed out of any wars. Would you like me to e-mail you a selection of saved games?

Next time I play I'm going to take time out to note down anything that occurs to me. This time I just wanted to see how it played out.

KingJoshi. Excellent mod swapper - works like a dream!

IXIRandyIXI
Jul 13, 2002, 08:13 AM
Well, I just played a game through to the late Industrial Ages, and then it kept freezing on this one turn for some reason. :( I think the AI got mad at me for "cleaning up the map" after 5,200 years of peace. Anyways, I have a few more things I've found...

When you look in the Build List and look for the Fishery, you don't see the image for it, just the word Fishery. Is this osmething already known and is going to be fixed?

Also, I checked and saw that the Knight and Indian War Elephant got a HP bonus of 3, while the Chinese Rider only got a HP bonus of 2. They all can be built at the same time from the same technology, so I think that's a little unfair for the Chinese Rider.

Atomic Theory gives you the ability to make High Schools, but I was thinking, wouldn't Public School be a better name for it? It's much more general, and I don't think there are any Preschools, Middle Schools, etc. in this mod... :)

Dark_Magician
Jul 13, 2002, 08:52 AM
There's a problem with AI (version 0.7.7). Clearly it doesn't know how to develop after middle age. It managed, due to a decent gold harvest get some good techs and buy units at good rate, but cities stayed at size 5, when mine were at reasonable 17. Difficulty was regent though.

I haven't tried such people-sensitive government type like democracy, but in federation having war with everyone for like 500 years didn't seem to bother citizens at all. Maybe because of abundancy of wonders?

The idea of having land mines seems to be great idea. Even though a few mines I had were virtually avoided by the enemy, it is good that they spent time avoiding them. I decided not to place more, because was afraid mines are accountable in the army budget (?).

There were no means of transporting trucks (I guess they are good land carries for some units) to colonies overseas. Looks like a transport doen't fit in another transport. I think it would create a dangerous loop of some kind.

Air transportation (by airport) didn't work.

Caravans were unclear. I remember, although vaguelly building caravans years ago in civ 2. This time, since no help was provided I didn't build any. Gold didn't seem a problem though. I also suspect AI didn't know how to use them.

Absence of entires in civilopediae seems one point where least work required compared to the beneficial effects.

Another good point was increased cost of units.
It is really boring to move some 40 atrillery pieces and 20 tanks at deity in regular civ 3, given absence of advanced interface support. Here some 5 panzers, given their ability to bombard (a controversial issue. It eliminates the need for artillery. Something should be done to make artillery more useful. Maybe making subtle distinction between firing at units and sieging cities. Also autodefending against attacks) can easily take a middle size city.

Introduction of full-capable air transport was also a bright idea.

Increased movement rate for air units is controvercial, since it decreases strategic moment, which means no planing of units in advance is necessary. It took a nerve sometimes in a normal situation to decide where to concentrate air units in situation of several fronts, because they could only be used after enemy makes a turn (same whith artillery, except they were changed to lesser degree). This needs to be thought of. Maybe changing it by allowing extra movement when moving between airports (or airbases?), which would then serve as infrastructure?

engineers are funny :goodjob:

Isak
Jul 13, 2002, 09:21 AM
Medwynn: Sure, go ahead and send them to me :)

Randy242424: Please send me a savegame with the crash, if you still have one.

About fishery :confused: it shows up fine in my build-list. Of course I'm not running 0.77 at the moment, but we haven't consciously fixed this to the best of my knowledge, so i assume it should show up in 0.77 too. It is true however that some buildings do not show up in the Build Button (not the list), but check the Known Bugs list on the DyP site for details on that.

High School vs. Public School: True, it is a bit Ameri-centric :) Changing the name will mean that I have to rearrange the buildings (again) so I would say that I'm in favor of changing, but it's not a very high priority ;)

Dark_Magician: Thanks for the input. I'd like a save-game with the mini-city problem, if you have one (or two). Email adress is isak@privat.dk

Happiness, Transports and Land Mines are still undergoing testing - you're right, were not sure about what the Transports and Land Mines can really do.

Caravans are simply means of transporting production - you can build them in one city and then disband them in another to help finish an improvement quicker.

Not sure what you mean about the civilopedia entries - if you're saying they require more work, you're right :)

kingjoshi
Jul 13, 2002, 01:29 PM
medwynn:

Thanks! That's the first comment on my program since version 0.3 and the first comment in over a month! There have been 44 downloads (of version 0.3), but I have no idea if people used it or what they think of it. I really appreciate the feedback! :)

Higher Game
Jul 13, 2002, 08:44 PM
Finally back! AOL was giving me issues with my account, but I managed to get it back. Anyway, I already brought up this issue in an e-mail to Kal-El, but I'm posting it here too.

If an AI isn't on a sea square and doesn't have a bonus food tile, it cannot grow beyond size 2. The AI aims for masonry early and this hurts its expansion. Please move the tech for the 2 pop settler up a bit because the AI cannot handle it so early. The AI has a tendency to research the upper part of the tech tree first and the lower part later. Attaching the 2 pop settler to egalitarianism would weaken democracy, and make rushing to it less effective. I normally rush to democracy and it almost always pays off big. There should be a penalty too.

Secondly, I saw a commercial AI with 2 cities making a merchant in its capitol. The merchant really must be moved forward for it to be fair.

These 2 issues are the reason why many AI's are little 2 or 3 city civs. I tested this on a random map, but I will play the DyP world map sometime and see how it plays.

RobO
Jul 14, 2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Higher Game
If an AI isn't on a sea square and doesn't have a bonus food tile, it cannot grow beyond size 2. The AI aims for masonry early and this hurts its expansion. Please move the tech for the 2 pop settler up a bit because the AI cannot handle it so early. The AI has a tendency to research the upper part of the tech tree first and the lower part later. Attaching the 2 pop settler to egalitarianism would weaken democracy, and make rushing to it less effective. I normally rush to democracy and it almost always pays off big. There should be a penalty too.
All this is in the process of being changed dramatically. We're adding a new defaukt government with tile penalty to go with the 1pop settlers, and introducing the 2pop settlers along with Despotism. I think you will like it. I certainly do. Theres an early preview of the changed ancient tech advisor a bit earlier in the thread.

The main penalty in Democracy is high war weariness. And also high unit maintenance. If you're in a peaceful situation then Democracy should be preferable.
Secondly, I saw a commercial AI with 2 cities making a merchant in its capitol. The merchant really must be moved forward for it to be fair.
Sorry, I may be a bit dense. What is "forward"? Later in the tech tree? The real issue is then that the commercial civs might need to have another special.

bshirt
Jul 14, 2002, 08:09 AM
I've played about four games of DYP on huge random maps with about ten to twelve opponents at the Monarch level.

As several others have stated, the AI, for some reason, simply peters out about half way through the game.

I've never had an AI civ attack with anything more than one or two armored units a turn. However, the AI certainly will attack in numbers earlier in the game with calvery and such, making it much, much more dangerous and fun (to give credit where credit is due, Civ3's AI is lightyears better than Civ2's IMO).

Why is this?

Is that the Civ3 hard coded AI procedure maybe?

On the other hand, I too am starting to have armored units available usually around 1930 or something, which is a HUGE improvement over the original game, where I could crank them out in the 1400's. lol!

This mod still has a ways to go, but nevertheless is already a massive improvement over the original game. Firaxis would be well served to consider hiring some of the DYP staff on a contractual basis it seems to me.

Micaelis Rex
Jul 14, 2002, 10:53 AM
Hi everyone. First I wanted to congratulate the DYP team on a great mod:). It really adds so much more depth and strategy to the game. With the added techs, the reasearch rate has become historical.

Sorry if these questions are dumb but:

I was wondering why won't the AI trade anything for flax (not even 1 gold). Perhaps its just in my case but has anyone else had this problem?

Wouldn't all of the added cultural stuff make it really easy to win the game that way? I havn't finished a game yet but my capitol will pass 20000 culture well before the game is over.

Keep up the good work guys.

-Mike:)

RobO
Jul 14, 2002, 12:05 PM
bshirt, I think the AI develops problems because it doesn't understand that it must build the production-boosting improvements. I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Mike23, the culture issue remains to be solved. I don't think the culture win limit is editable. You should eb able to disable a cultural win, however <G>

Kal-el
Jul 14, 2002, 03:12 PM
We are trying to fix the AI build problem by setting all AI civs to build production-boosting buildings often inthe Governor section of the bic. This should really help.

If anyone wants to try this before we get the next releaseout and post their findings that would be helpful.

Thanks,

kal-el

Higher Game
Jul 14, 2002, 06:37 PM
I mean, the merchant should come from a Middle Ages tech because that is when they really appeared. Maybe a little after feudalism. I don't like seeing the AI try to play OCC and lose so horribly.

Greeko
Jul 15, 2002, 12:37 AM
I know yall guys are workin but can i ask questions? WIll new patches from firaxis mess up yalls mod? I was wondering if the production queue will be available in the final version of this mod. Speaking of final version, may I ask what would be your deadline or if not a deadline what is the estimated date you guys think that this mod will be completed by?

RobO
Jul 15, 2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Greeko
I know yall guys are workin but can i ask questions?
Why, sure :D
WIll new patches from firaxis mess up yalls mod?
Probably, I just wish I knew how.
I was wondering if the production queue will be available in the final version of this mod.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean :confused:
Speaking of final version, may I ask what would be your deadline or if not a deadline what is the estimated date you guys think that this mod will be completed by?
I suppose you mean version 1, cause it definitely won't be completed by then. There will be (a few) error corrections and new ideas for soem time after that. I have no idea. Isak is much better at throwing out deadlines, though they are rarely useful ;)

curswine
Jul 15, 2002, 09:24 AM
hi great mod i'm making tweaks on it like adding different civs and changing units.

But (there is always a but) i have a problem when playing any game when i get to around the mid modern era (around steath, smart weapons area) it always crashes can you please help me

JohnnyBuck9
Jul 15, 2002, 11:08 AM
:( Can someone please help me with Great Wonders. Perhaps the Civolpedia enteries are not all up-to-speed on this yet but I have the required Tech advance and still don't get the Great Wonder in the City build list.
Other Civs are happily constructing them and I have the lead in Techs!
Is there a list of what is required if it is different than the Civolpedia states?
I can build some of them, but not nearlly all.
Thanks much.

jb.

Kal-el
Jul 15, 2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Higher Game
I mean, the merchant should come from a Middle Ages tech because that is when they really appeared. Maybe a little after feudalism. I don't like seeing the AI try to play OCC and lose so horribly.

Merchants were around long before the Middle Ages. Trade was prevalent throughout the Mediterranean during the classical period. Athens built its empire on trade, and caravans crossed the western sahara on a regular trade route bring gold from the south to the north for salt. Egypt had a large trading empire as did most early great civilizations.

As far as OCC goes, I think there are plenty of other problems that the AI wil face besides the Merchant. Food is the one that comes to mind.

Originally posted by JohnnyBuck9
Can someone please help me with Great Wonders. Perhaps the Civolpedia enteries are not all up-to-speed on this yet but I have the required Tech advance and still don't get the Great Wonder in the City build list.
Other Civs are happily constructing them and I have the lead in Techs!
Is there a list of what is required if it is different than the Civolpedia states?
I can build some of them, but not nearlly all.
Thanks much.
Tell me which ones you can't build and maybe I can be of more help to you. Help me, help you. :)

RobO
Jul 15, 2002, 11:19 AM
JohnnyBuck9, it should be in the readme+changelog, but there's a lot of stuff in there. There's also the spreadsheet, available from the DyP site (see my sig), but you may not be able to use it (It's Excel).

Many wonders have prerequisites.

kingjoshi
Jul 15, 2002, 11:22 AM
hey Johnny,

There is an Excel file that is a complete reference (as of v0.77). Since I'm having trouble connecting to the DYP website, I'll post the file here. If you don't have excel, let me know and I can try to save the file as html or something.

kingjoshi
Jul 15, 2002, 11:22 AM
D'oh, RobO beat me to it! :)

RobO
Jul 15, 2002, 11:31 AM
Actually, I can make a text file as well for the improvements if you need it.

JohnnyBuck9
Jul 15, 2002, 11:42 AM
Just what I needed. Thanks very much for the quick responses!
Now I can get back to kicking some butt!
Later ... jb.

Kal-el
Jul 15, 2002, 11:47 AM
I have updated the world map. I have added some more flax to hopefully increase AI navies. The final solution may lie in the governors, but that test will have to wait.

version 1.6 of the DyP Earth Map is now available.

kingjoshi
Jul 15, 2002, 11:52 AM
Kal-el,

There seems to be a lot of resources in your map. Is that to recreate how it actually is, game issues, mixture? In some ways, it helps recreate the slow growth and then rapid expansion, in some ways there seems to be too many.