View Full Version : Double Your Pleasure


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Isak
Aug 12, 2002, 03:16 PM
KDan: You can learn some more from using Gramphos' SaveGame editor (in his multitool, found in the Utilities section).

Please, also send me a savegame - I would like to check some of these issues myself - the email addy is here (isak@privat.dk)

Dingocat85
Aug 12, 2002, 04:34 PM
IMHO, seems like we've got some more begging to do to Firaxis :rolleyes:

It doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to put a line of code on certain buildings (COUGHextrapalacesCOUGH) , where you can only build them if you have X or more # of cities. Like the way you get forbidden palaces at around 7 cities..but to get the *next* palace, you'd need, say, 7 more cities?

On another subject...
The story behind Missionaries/Shamans is they can move over Mountains & Jungles via religious zealosness (zelocity? zelocitude?) . But in the Middle Ages, Fanatics fight as well as Knights out of religious zeal. The way I see it: Knights are horse-riders with the latest Weapons of their times [/I]. Fanatics don't have as "modern" weaponry, but they sure are eager to fight for a cause.

Therefore, from my calculations... :scan:
I think fanatics should have reduced attack (to 4, maybe even 3?), and either A) treat all terrain as roads, or B) movement rate of 2, and can attack multiple times in a single turn. Remember that fanatics are lots more eager to fight, they don't turn down a fight :aargh3:

Yes, with me giving so many ideas for new units, you've gotta feel: :cry: :whipped: . But we know what you do all day: :rocket2: :beer:

note to self: stop having so much fun with smilies... :rotfl:

Oh yeah, one last thing.. I'm playing as the Americans, and my Settler (whatever the guy you get with Dynasticism is called) can move over mountains and jungles. I compared this to one of my catapults, which couldn't move over mountains/jungles...any ideas? :confused: I'll send a SAV, if you'd like to look at it.

Regards,
Dingocat85

Kal-el
Aug 12, 2002, 04:54 PM
*Chiefdom will no longer be able to support a larger army than Despotism. This only makes sense.

*It is impossible to require a minimum distance between palaces.

*The max number of resources a unit can require is 3

*Some later units after synthetic materials do not/will not require resources that can be manufactured

*I can only do what the editor will allow, I have tried to come up with numerous work arounds, but those usually end up making the game to easy for the human player or too difficult for the AI

*The expansionist trait is very powerful, IMO one of the most powerful. You start out with farming, and as you all know city location is key. You also start with a Ranger who can explore just a bit faster than the scout. While other civs have to build a scout you are already out discovering the world around you. This allows you to find prime locations for your next settlement and to find those goody huts before your opponents. Also remember that you won't get any barbarians from those goody huts. And even though the scout and the ranger can defend themselves now, the Barbarian Raider is tougher in DyP so not having to worry about them is a definite advantage. Of course if you chicken out and remove barbarians from the game the Expansionist trait takes a hit in value, but why would you do a thing like that. ;)

*It makes more sense for the serf to be associated with the Industrious trait than with the Expansionist trait. The team discussed possible alterations to the Serf a while back and decided that this was the best way to go about it. Isak, can you explain to the class why 2 movement is better than half cost? you put it much better than I could.

*Clay is very important, but also rather abundant.

*Units with ranged attack weapons archers on up have the bombardment ability. I am contemplating removing the range for most of those units.

*Missionaries are actually the same as Settlers, IIRC, just by a different name. The are in effect a flavor unit for the religious civs.

*Secret-Agents: Their attack rating is minimal but yes they can "bribe" workers to come over to your side. It should be extremely difficult for them to take a city, but if they do think of it like the old Civ2 spies who could cause a city to switch over to your side.

*It is not possible to change the game so that the more of resources you have the faster you can build the units that require them OR Have units that require more of the same resource to build

*Rory, I will have to address your other resource comments later

If I missed something email me and I will post a response here later.

Kal-el
Aug 12, 2002, 04:59 PM
Good Idea on the Fanatic, I will look at it more closely when I get home.

GIDustin
Aug 12, 2002, 06:38 PM
On the download page of your website, under the following section:


------TROUBLESHOOTING

General

You tell your visitors that if they have problems, they should reinstall with the 1.21f patch. This will fix no problems whatsoever as the lastest is 1.29f. :p

Just thought I would let you know as one webmaster to another.

GIDustin

RobO
Aug 12, 2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
*It makes more sense for the serf to be associated with the Industrious trait than with the Expansionist trait. The team discussed possible alterations to the Serf a while back and decided that this was the best way to go about it. Isak, can you explain to the class why 2 movement is better than half cost? you put it much better than I could.
I can give it a try.

The Worker costs 10 shields, and it does not get any cheaper than that. Shield costs are set in the editor in increments of 10 shields, so the worker costs 1 in the editor.

So, the only way to make the serf cheaper is to increase the shield cost of the worker to 20. Increasing pop cost is out of the question.

And frankly I don't remember why we chose not to do so. :o
Perhaps because the pop cost of the worker is much more important than the shield cost, so that a half price in shields is in fact not a very useful advantage. But that's my personal opinion.

Rory_20_uk
Aug 13, 2002, 02:08 AM
Wow! Thanks Kal el for that terriffic reply! It is a herculean amount of work that you must have done there!
Just a few more things that I found yesterday:
The unpset that the slavemarket causes does not give a reason
The bonus that gives shrine causes the shrines to dissapear when the Great Wonder is obsolete
Possilby seafaring boats too late? I was stuck on an island with no way off - and as the only rescourse of copper went, I was idly waiting for the computer AI to find me. Possibly longships could be able to rtransverse the ocean - after all, they did find America :)
Fair point on the clay. It is rather common.

disorganizer
Aug 13, 2002, 02:09 AM
Was my proposal of desert not being settlable until irigiation missed or did i miss the reply?

Anyway:
at the moment desert is settlable, which should not be. I think desert should be irrigated before they can be settled (any thoughts on this?)

RobO
Aug 13, 2002, 02:49 AM
disorganizer, I think the desert issue fell through the cracks.

I have given this some thought, but have not had the opportunity to share them. So here they come:

I think you should be allowed to settle on a desert square if it is on a coast. In the game, Desert does not provide any food (except for the city tile itself) so to provide a city of a size greater than 1 you need access to water (oasis/coast/lake) or other terrain. I think that's fair. Unfortnately there is no way to differentiate in the editor between desert with and without access to water so I think the current setting is a reasonable compromise.

Kal-el
Aug 13, 2002, 08:20 AM
sorry, disorganizer, I thought I had responded to that point. Desert shall remain settlable. Tundra will no longer be settlable. It will still be possible to settle on Tundra if it is a forested Tundra, as the game reads the tile as Forest and not as the underlying Tundra. It is not possible to place forest on Desert or restrict cities to Irrigated Desert or Desert with Oasis. Any city that is built in the Desert prior to Crop Rotation, or without an Oasis or without being on the Coast is doomed to stagnation until Crop Rotation.

I just realized why I thought I had responded to your question, because I did respond to it, but over at the map thread where you posted it as well. Here is what I said there: Unfortunately it is an all or nothing affair. Either you can build on the terrain or you can not. The reason that you can build on a forested tundra even though you can not build on a regular tundra is that the game reads the tile as a forest tile. I think it is realistic that people build in the desert, it will only give small towns, but it is not unrealistic.

Granted people settle in "Tundra" regions as well, but in Civ3 we can not distinguish between true Tundra and uninhabitable frozen wastelands, except through the use of the forest work-around.

hope that helps,

sealman
Aug 13, 2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el
[B...

*I can only do what the editor will allow, ....

[/B]

By the looks of your avitar, I would say you are superman and can do anything. :) Keep up the good work, this is the best mod I have found. I would rate the thread but I already did:goodjob:

Anglophile
Aug 13, 2002, 10:27 AM
Kal-el, thank you for all the input; you answered a couple of my questions before I asked them (e.g. forested tundra being settleable(?)). I do agree with the length of time it takes to get to ocean-faring vessels being an issue and have toyed with the idea of unchecking the sink in ocean box for longboats. If one reads the Civilopedia entry for longboats, it sounds like they should be ocean-faring (cost me two of them first time I played DyP .795). On the other hand, the current R&D/unit system actually matches historical development pretty well so I have so far resisted the temptation and just beeline for the key techs through the middle ages.

I have moved on to 0.84 and do indeed find that it is less easy than .795. I am in first place at 250 BC and pretty dominant on my large European continent but haven't yet met the AIs in 2-4 place so don't really know what my lead is. My development has definitely been slower and all the AIs I have met have developed a reasonable amount, although none have expanded aggressively. The most distinctive difference for me is that my city development is much less advanced, most production going to settlers, workers, and units - and my army is just barely strong and numerous enough. The game will definitely be more challenging than the 0.795 one. Suspect that the extra layers that the DyP provides that add to the pleasure of the human player will inevitably reduce the ability of the AI to compete. Well if worst comes to worst, I can always edit the cheats, give tham all domestication to start with, etc since I recognize that the editor gives you guys few ways of accelerating the AI's development, especially in building infrastructure.

I'll provide more feedback and ask some more questions when I get back home (now in one of the less scenic parts of Mexico, north of Monclova north of Monterrey, then Denver then Montreal/Ottawa) and can play again.

Kal-el
Aug 13, 2002, 11:27 AM
I think the solution to the “sink in ocean” problem is to allow Caravel to safely traverse the oceans but keep longboats as they are. In their current state and on the earth map it is possible, though slightly risky to cross from Europe to North America. You can look forward to an additional wonder, Erikson’s Voyage, which will be available with Boat Building (a prerequisite for Seafaring), which will give a +1 movement point over water, which should help you get across those treacherous oceans.

See page 63 for a rough preview of the new ancient age science advisor screen. Meant to run from 4000BC to about 1000AD.

KDan
Aug 13, 2002, 01:39 PM
Isak - Save file is attached

Here's the list of stuff in America's city (I'll go through the trouble of typing them all up just for you :-) ) Bear in mind that the year is 1814 and I am sailing through the industrial age, with most of my towns crumbling under improvements, from stock exchanges to hospitals to factories to everything I can build that is any use, and the Americans are the next best thing on the map after me at the moment (still stronger than me militarily afaict).

Albuquerque:
Academy, Aqueduct, Barracks, Basilica, Library, Theater,

Atlanta:
Academy, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Theater

Boston:
Academy, Barracks, Colosseum, Library, Marketplace, University, JS Bach, Heroic Epic

Buffalo:
Forbidden Palace, Academy, Aqueduct, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Theater, University

Chicago:
Academy, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Theater,

Cincinnati:
Academy, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Theater, University

Cleveland:
Academy, Aqueduct, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Obelisk, Theater

Dallas:
Academy, Barracks, Basilica, Colosseum, Library, Obelisk, Theater

etc....

They're all pretty much like that. Not much to look at for such an advanced stage of the game. Maybe there's some way to over-motivate the AI to build more buildings? Perhaps you can make all the units unappealing to the AI and all the buildings look like great stuff? Otherwise only Firaxis can do that...

Daniel

Isak
Aug 13, 2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by RobO

I can give it a try.

The Worker costs 10 shields, and it does not get any cheaper than that. Shield costs are set in the editor in increments of 10 shields, so the worker costs 1 in the editor.

So, the only way to make the serf cheaper is to increase the shield cost of the worker to 20. Increasing pop cost is out of the question.

And frankly I don't remember why we chose not to do so. :o
Perhaps because the pop cost of the worker is much more important than the shield cost, so that a half price in shields is in fact not a very useful advantage. But that's my personal opinion. Maybe it was because I disagreed so intensely ;)

Our original debate was over whether or not the Industrious Trait was more powerful than the other ones due to the fact that they got the Serf, and subsequently whether giving Serf's 2 movement or making them half price, would be the best choice for a "special ability"

I saw it this way (quoting from our discussion):I'm not so sure the alledged efficiency of the Industrious civs is actually true - but if we want to make a change, I think that making Serf's half-price would give Industrious civs even more of an edge. The movement bonus is only profitable when the Serf's are idle, I.e. not actually working on a tile improvement, whereas half price would make them twice as effective in improving tiles. I don't know what workers do most when human players control them - move around or improve tiles - but I'm sure the AI is ruthlessly effective when it comes to making sure that it's workers are never moving around idly for too long. I was then asked why I thought that half price would make them twice as effective and this is my reply:Well, I can't find exactly how much of a bonus Industrious workers get, but let's say it's 25% faster just for the sake of argument. That would mean that industrious civ's workforce would be 2,5 times faster than non-industrious civs, given that for 20 shields they would get 2 serfs each working at 1,25 the speed of non-industrious workers. In other words, a tile improvement costing 20 turns for non-industrious civs, would take 8 turns for an industrious civ.RobO later informed me that the bonus is actually 100%, so a 20 turn tile improvement would only take them 5 turns (using two workers).

So in my humble opinion, giving 2 movement is less of an advantage, and thus the best choice.

I know that this doesn't factor in pop cost - of course in order to work that fast, the Industrious civ would have to give up one Population to build the extra Serf, but in my opinion this is not much of a disadvantage since that 1 Pop is not lost, but can be joined to a city should the need arise. Actually, it is an advantage before you reach Dynasticism, as it will allow the city building the Serf to grow once again, artificially inflating your population (though you shouldn't let them join cities again, until you're in Despotism).

I don't mind starting up the discussion again, but to tell you the truth, I have still not seen hard evidence that the AI Industrious Civs are better than the others. I agree with Kal-El on the Expansionist trait too (and I play with it all the time ;) - The Iroquois rule! )

KDan - thanks for the save (and for typing up the improvements :goodjob: ) , will take a look at it now.

GIDustin: Thanks for the heads up - to tell you the truth, I haven't had many bug or crash reports these last few days, so I was just trying to make things more interesting for myself ;)
So, how are the unique Tech Icons coming along :p

Edit: Fixed a bad smiley (I'm such a perfectionist)...

Kal-el
Aug 13, 2002, 03:49 PM
KDan,

thats very interesting. I told them to build cultural improvements and they are, but I also told them to build production improvements and they are not. Unless this is being played with the alterations that I asked some people to make in order to test Soren's fix in 1.29. Either way it is interesting and useful.

thanks,

FrantzX
Aug 13, 2002, 09:44 PM
How is the AI with this mod?

kingjoshi
Aug 13, 2002, 09:59 PM
I played a recent game (man, it's been a while since I played anything) and in that game, I only had few buildings, but I was still able to produce cavalry, infantry and then tanks at a good rate. I had enough "second capitals" that my production was sufficient and I was the strongest militarily (I think I remember writing about this). So, I don't know how much of the other stuff (buildings) is necessary. If the AI played smart (which it doesn't), then it could attack and keep you weak while you build those other buildings. however, If it let you live and you had high production in all your cities, you could make a comeback. I think this allows for more variations on how you want to play and that's a good thing. Unfortunately, the AI still doesn't take advantage of oppurtunities it has and as someone else said (I think Isak), the more complexity we add, the harder it becomes for the AI. However, I still think the AI plays well with this mod, though it might be easier than the original. But I can't be too sure since I keep getting better and I only play with the mod :)

Rory_20_uk
Aug 14, 2002, 02:07 AM
In the game that I was recently playing I was on a big continent eventually by myself, but there was only one scource of copper, and when this dissapeared, it would mean that I was completely unable to leave the isle unless I was found by the Ai and could trade for copper later, or when I had advanced to ironclads.
Now, this may be realsitic, but could it be possilbe to make there be foe example a different type of Longboat (as was thecase in real life) that could not attack, but could transverse ocen squares.

Panzer_IV
Aug 14, 2002, 06:21 AM
In the game that I was recently playing I was on a big continent eventually by myself, but there was only one scource of copper, and when this dissapeared, it would mean that I was completely unable to leave the isle unless I was found by the Ai and could trade for copper later, or when I had advanced to ironclads.
Now, this may be realsitic, but could it be possilbe to make there be foe example a different type of Longboat (as was thecase in real life) that could not attack, but could transverse ocen squares.

While I understand it made things a bit more difficult for you in that game, I personally would rather Kal-el doesn't make another Longboat that doesn't require copper. Copper seems to be the poor man's resource now, it's easy in the mod to do without it. If anything, I think it's importance should be increased.

About your issue, I've played games where the very next turn after I discover Steam Power, the only source of Coal available to me exhausts itself. The resource fluctuation is just a part of the game, and it makes it more interesting in my opinion. You could always edit your own maps for the scenerio if you wish, to make sure you have plenty of resources available to your starting location.

Panzer

p.s. This Mod is the only version of Civilization III that I play any more. Thanks Kal-el/Isak/RobO/etc. for making it so good.

dos
Aug 14, 2002, 07:55 AM
I agree that you shouldnt be able to cross oceans easily. Its way more fun to suddenly discover those three other civs out there at the same time and realize that they have way more land and tech and resources then you. The 'culture chock' is half the fun and makes the game more challenging.

And like they said in the first civ manual. You shouldnt be able to win every game :(

To go to another topic, what about beefing up the modern armor?
The tanks attack is 22, and modern armor only goes up to 24. I reckon it should be at least 32. This would give you something to crack open citys with more easily, making for a much more offensive game. As the saying goes, "The best defence is a good offence".

(Thanx for the correction in the next post. There I go believing everyting I read again :) )

(On the other hand a seperate unit could otherwise be a nice idea. Stats 48/1/1. Super on the attack but slow to get there and no defence or bombardment. Maybe the 'Sonic Tank' )
:p

Richard;) ;) :)

Kal-el
Aug 14, 2002, 10:03 AM
Actually:
Tank 14/14/2
Armor 22/12/3
Modern Armor 30/14/4

But I am looking into the unit stats due to the talk about the Super Cavalry. :)

Kal-el
Aug 14, 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by thestonesfan
Hey guys...first time poster here. I don't want to nitpick and this issue has probably been already addressed before, but in my build list there is a Worker icon where the Warrior one should be. I check the units_32 file and it looks right. Any suggestions?

Sorry Stonesfan,

I missed your post and only saw it now. Which version of the mod are you playing with? And has anyone else noticed this problem?

Wasn't deliberately ignoring you. :)

bernskov
Aug 15, 2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by GIDustin
You tell your visitors that if they have problems, they should reinstall with the 1.21f patch. This will fix no problems whatsoever as the lastest is 1.29f. :p

Just thought I would let you know as one webmaster to another.

GIDustin

Just a litle glitch.
It has been fixed now.

TnX

bernskov
Aug 15, 2002, 01:00 AM
We have crossed the 15000 visitors mark.
>------

Summary Period: 117 Days

Daily Unique:
Average 130
Highest Day 302 / 20 Jul, Sat, 2002

Totals:
Unique Visitors 15286
Visits incl. Reloads 50788

>------

Thank you all for making this a succesfull mod

dos
Aug 15, 2002, 01:16 AM
Go DyP! Maybe you should think of changing it to TyP. :love:

Question: The airfield unit does not seem to do anything? It also shoot of its machinegun incessantly forcing me to disband its irritating ass. Am I mistreating it or is there something wrong?

Also, why cant the gunship rebase? Is this planned? The p-228 radar (is that right?) has a range of 1 in real life but 4 according to civilopedia. Whos in error?

Richard

p.s. Great work with the Air transports!

thestonesfan
Aug 15, 2002, 05:27 AM
Kal-El - version .84

It's not a big deal, I just thought it was funny because in the editor, they matched up, but on the in-game queue, they were off.

Since then I have deleted and re-installed the game though, but I have yet to try it again. Nothing to bust your brain over.

IMO, they ought to hire some of you guys for Civ4. As consultants if nothing else. Of course, they could just read these forums and avoid paying you a salary. But please, keep it up!!

sealman
Aug 15, 2002, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by bernskov

Thank you all for making this a succesfull mod

Wrong. It is you guys who make this a succesful mod. We are the ones who are increasing your traffic.:p

Morbius
Aug 15, 2002, 06:46 AM
we are the ones looking up in awe and wonder at the creators of DyP.

RobO
Aug 15, 2002, 07:09 AM
Hmm, this is getting to be embarassing :blush:

Frankly, Kal-el is the proper focus for all this praise. It was his idea from the start, and he still provides by far the most of the innovations. The rest of us mainly provide feedback along with a few ideas and ofc. keep the wheels running so that y'all are actually able to download, install and play this thing without too many errors.

dog
Aug 15, 2002, 09:30 AM
Wow, this is a long thread!:eek:

Are there unit graphics in this mod that are not available in Lab Monkey's unit library?? :confused: Some of the "teasers" on the DyP web site look unfamiliar to me.

thanks

KDan
Aug 15, 2002, 03:25 PM
Kal-El:
----
Actually:
Tank 14/14/2
Armor 22/12/3
Modern Armor 30/14/4
----

0.84, checked the civilopedia and it says 24 attack for modern armor (and stats as you said for the others). Also just 3 movement.

Daniel

Shaka Brown
Aug 15, 2002, 04:01 PM
how bout the new civs when u plannin on makin em

Kal-el
Aug 15, 2002, 04:26 PM
they are in discussion right now. :)

Sioux
Mayan
Incan
Polynesian
Polish
Abyssinian
Songhi
Tibetan
Thai

I know I said no more European Civs, but I had a revelation about the reason why there are so few civs in the Americas and Africa, and so many in Europe. The more civs in contact with each other the faster those civs will move along the tech tree. Basic, yes. But it is why in order to have a more historically accurate development there can not be an equal number of civs in each area.

I am adding 3 civs to the Americas, the Inca will hopefully be pretty isolated in South America with all the jungle there. The Maya and the Aztecs will be in close contact with each other and can help each other move along the tech tree. The Sioux are added to North America and while I am not planning on removing the American Civ, I suggest not playing with them, or if you do, not playing with one of the other North American civs.

The Polish got the nod over the Portuguese based simply on geography. I want to be able to play the map with all 32 civs (33 minus Americans) and it would be too tight to squeeze both the Portuguese and the Spanish in the Iberian Peninsula. Once we are done with the first batch of civs I may consider adding more for those people who would rather play with the Portuguese, the Dutch or anybody else. Please don’t bombard me with requests right now for those other Civs. We will get to them eventually, but for now I would just like some constructive feedback on the selected civs.

I bent to the pressure and changed from the Nubians to the Abyssinians in East Africa. I hope all you Abyssinian fans are happy. The Songhai fill a space in the Western Sahara.

The Tibetans and the Thai will help give some more competition to Asia.

And then there are the Polynesians. They will start in Hawaii and will have an Outrigger UU in replace of the Canoe. They will probably be the most challenging civ to play. I can’t wait to give them a try.

That should be enough to get the ball rolling. :D

bshirt
Aug 15, 2002, 05:01 PM
This mod is worse than heroin. :-)

dog
Aug 15, 2002, 07:42 PM
Are there unit graphics in this mod that are not available in Lab Monkey's unit library?? :confused: Some of the "teasers" on the DyP web site look unfamiliar to me.

thanks:scan:

Shaka Brown
Aug 16, 2002, 02:32 AM
U sure ya dont work for firaxis man cus if ya do ya dang goood at your job keep workin this is a truly great project


:goodjob: keep up the good work

thestonesfan
Aug 16, 2002, 06:25 AM
So how does a game on an earth map go? I've never played one since I always figured the scale would be too wacky, and isolated Civs like the Aztecs and Zulus would be superpowers while scrunched Civs like the English and Germans would be nobodys. I need a little historical accuracy.

I know this would be a Civ4 issue and probably impossible to tackle, but wouldn't Colonialism be cool to implement? Like the case of America in the real world. A civ sending settlers to a remote continent with the possibility of them someday becoming independent. And, along those lines, civil war. I guess it might end up being something new to worry about while playing the game that no one would want.

Another thing I'd like to see would be the ability to divide your nation into different provinces or territories, with the effect of happier citizens and more effective government. For example, if you take over several cities in a war, they could form a province. There would have to be a whole new layer of Diplomacy as you interact with your provincial leaders, but I doubt anyone would object to that. Imagine the fun of secret meetings with George Washington, as his disillusioned colony struggles to free itself of the English yoke.

Sorry for all the Civ4 theorizing. But there is a boatload of potential there.

thestonesfan
Aug 16, 2002, 06:55 AM
Is there any kind of Musket Infantry anyone has made? Or an older style Destroyer?

thestonesfan
Aug 16, 2002, 07:41 AM
Ok, one final thing and I'll shut up...giving ranged units (Longbowmen, Infantry, etc) bombard ability...everyone's thoughts??

Anglophile
Aug 16, 2002, 08:01 AM
I think that ranged units should (and do in this and other mods I've played) have ranged attacks as it best represents how they really worked - by whittling down the opposing attackers before the hand-to-hand started. The most realistic stats for ranged archers would be low attack and defence values but a good ranged attack. In other words, they need to be part of a stack as they will suck on their own. CTP, that much maligned civ variant, actually portrayed that pretty well. They also had a good looking musketman but am unsure whether such units can be imported to Civ3.

Kal-el
Aug 16, 2002, 10:46 AM
Shaka Brown,

lol, I am sure that I don’t work for Firaxis. But if they asked me to, I would be there in a heartbeat. ;) I am glad you like the mod though. :D

TheStonesFan,

I prefer to play on an earth map, and my choices of new civs to add was based on the presumption of playing on a world map. The thing about the isolated civs becoming superpowers is a tricky one. If the rules are set up properly and the right number of civs are played with it can theoretically be set up that the game plays out very historically accurate. That is what I am aiming for with this mod.

By setting up the rules properly, I am not suggesting handicapping the Aztecs, Zulus, etc by limiting their AI in anyway. They would play by the same rules as the rest of the civs, but their initial historical starting locations should create a situation that mirrors their actual progression. If you randomized the start locations and the Germans started where the Aztec start they would face the same challenge that the Aztec face. While these isolated civs may be able to grow more rapidly than others, and I am working on ways to limit their growth, their isolation should slow down their technological development. It is true that the Eurasian civs will have much more competition for space, but those civs will also have many more opportunities for technology trading, which should push them past the isolated civs. This technology advantage should outweigh the land advantage when the two cultures meet.

Things are still being balanced. And the current settings of the map need some alterations to better create this disparity in starting locations, but my goal is create as historically accurate, yet fun, and playable a game as possible. What this will mean is that playing as the Sioux, the Iroquois, the Aztecs, the Mayan, the Inca, the Zulu, and especially the Polynesians should pose a greater challenge than playing as one of the Eurasian Civs. I am including the Northern African Civs among the Eurasian Civs due to their initial proximity. Of course certain of the Eurasian civs will pose a greater challenge. The Island Civs such as the English, Celts and Japanese will be more difficult to play than the Russians who have vast tracts of land to expand into and have the advantage of early contact with both the Euro Civs and the Asian Civs.

The Polynesians are a civ that I am very excited about adding to the game. I am looking forward to the challenge of creating a successful empire in the South Pacific.

J C Woodman
Aug 16, 2002, 10:56 AM
Hello all, First... LOVE THIS MOD!!!!:love: :D :love: :D :love:
I do have a couple o ??'s but let me lay the ground work...
I loaded the DYP v-.80 about a week ago, and right off I began loading a plethora of the new units not already added to DYP (ie Grenadier, Iron Frig, Battlewagon,WW1 Bipes, etc). This was time consuming but went well in the end. I also loaded the Zulu v-4 updated unit_32 file and re-matched all the units in the editor. I then saved it within the editor and selected that scenario from the menu and...
Now... I have been playing the same huge map, 16 civ Monarch game for the whole week (good god the Huge map games take time) and generaly all has been great! This weekend I intend to fix a few errors w/ the units, (Fallschirmjager appeared a wee bit early... 10 AD :lol: that caused some havoc!) and then I want to update to the latest DYP version. Now here is the problem, can I load the latest DYP and expect it to effect the Editor mod I based on DYP, or :cry: will I have to re-add all those units to the new DYP version? Have you guys added any other new units to DYP since v-.80? I love the new units I found on the New unit graphics thread and most are very solid, (Love the Sith knight and Giant Spiders for a little color!). Thanks for the Mod it wack's LWC
:spank: and I love it!:beer: :goodjob:

thestonesfan
Aug 16, 2002, 11:37 AM
Hey JC, any chance of turning your avatar into a unit??

I did some thinking on ranged attack for regular units.

Ranged Attack

In the real world, the advantage of wielding a bow as opposed to a sword is rather obvious; it grants a skilled user the ability to kill from a safe distance. On the other hand, if someone is hacking at you with a sword, a bow won’t be much help. In Civ, this is represented by a high attack rating and low defense rating. But is this the best way to represent the effect of ranged warfare? The system is seemingly reversed with the introduction of gun units, as infantry, with the exception of the Marine, always have a higher defense rating. Why then, is a Rifleman, charging at another Rifleman, at such a disadvantage in relation to a Swordsman charging an Archer? The answer is simple. The combat system is a tad screwed up.

Say a mad Swordsman is bearing down on me, an Archer, with a defense skill of 1. His attack skill of 3 will easily result in my bloody death. In the Civ3 world, that is. In real life, I would simply load up an arrow while he’s recklessly closing the distance, and then shoot him before he got to me. Conversely, back in the Civ3 world, say I’m charging him instead. My attack skill of 2 and a little luck results in a glorious victory. Uh oh, now I’m back in the real world. I’m running at him, trying vainly to reach behind my back into my bouncing quiver to grab an arrow. Finally, I get one, I even manage to shoot it, but because I’m running, I nail a sparrow 10 yards overhead. The Swordsman calmly dispatches me while I struggle to prepare the next shot.

That’s one way to look at it, if you judge all attacks as equal. Of course, they aren’t. Me, being the skilled Archer that I am, won’t recklessly charge the Swordsman the way he would me. I’ll charge to just within range, and stop to take a proper aim before I shoot at him. But with my primitive bow, I don’t have much range, so it’s feasible that I would have to run into his square at substantial personal risk. And, if the Swordsman decides to charge at me, he will be quite close before I could get a respectable shot off. So the system, as far as a Swordsman vs. an Archer is concerned, is not terrible. But it could be changed a little.

Now I’m part of a company of fellow Archers, and we’re garrisoned inside a city, expecting an attack. We’ll be ready, so the first wave of attackers will be running headlong into a hail of arrows. This is a powerful obstacle, but once we have to reload, we are virtually defenseless. How do we represent this in the Civ3 world? Simple, give the Archer a bombard value and a range of 0. When being attacked within our square, we get a shot off and significantly weaken the attacker. But, since our primitive bows have meager ranges and we assume the invaders are smart enough to camp out of range, we’ll have to leave the safety of the city for an attack of our own. So, the modified Archer, with attack/defense/move (A/D/M) stats of 2/1/1 and bombard/range/fire rate (B/R/F) stats of 3/0/1, will behave a little more realistically. So I guess I’m for giving them bombard ability.




How the Longbowman Got the Shaft…

Combat in the Middle Ages is badly represented in Civ3; read a little on the subject and you’ll see what I mean. In the game, the Knight dominates the battlefield until gunpowder is invented, and is still the main offensive unit until Cavalry comes along. This was entirely not the case in reality. Sure, Knights are cool, and they were the dominant force on the battlefield for a time, but they quickly fell out of favor once more powerful bows and skilled, anti-cavalry Pikemen were employed on the battlefield. However, in the game, the use of Longbowmen is likely to be nonexistent.

Longbowmen were used almost exclusively as bombardment troops, in tandem with the defensive prowess of Pikemen. A “charge” of Longbowmen, as an attack is represented in the game, is ludicrous. The bows were massive and required great strength to draw. In practice, you could not charge into an enemy force, halt, anchor yourself, notch an arrow, draw the bow, and let fly with much of an effect. So an attack skill equal to that of a charging Knight is off the mark. The solution? An A/D/M of 1/1/1 and a B/R/F of 8/1/2. That would make them too good to ignore. Very powerful, yet very vulnerable unsupported.

So I suppose one could ask, “why not just leave them with a high attack?” You could. It would, in a way, represent the fact that a company of Longbowmen could do significant damage letting loose a volley of arrows. After all, an attack doesn’t necessarily mean a charge. But the original way, when you attack with a unit of Longbowmen, you would either kill the enemy, or be killed yourself. This is not realistic. A Longbowman would shoot from a distance, and they could not kill everything they shot at, but they would be in no danger of being killed themselves. Until they had to stop and reload. So to use Longbowmen effectively, one would need Knights for the killing charge, and Pikemen to defend.

Thus, the Knight is not the most powerful unit, but supporting cavalry to the main offense of the Longbowman, and we have more realistic model of medieval warfare. The fact that the Archer, with an attack of 2, would be better at close range fighting might bother someone, but their smaller, compact bows would no doubt be quicker to load and easier to carry.

As far as the necessity of a Medieval form of infantry, I do agree some type of advanced swordsman is missing. Foot soldiers of the Middle Ages, though used less and less from the fall of the Roman Empire until the advent of gunpowder, were still an important part of the battlefield and totally ignored by Civ3.

Kal-el
Aug 16, 2002, 11:50 AM
yeah, thats how I looked at it. Hence the bombardment ability for the missile weapons units.

J C Woodman
Aug 16, 2002, 12:12 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thestonesfan
[B]Hey JC, any chance of turning your avatar into a unit??

Well I plucked this as my Avatar from the provided list, so I thought it was a civ3 or civ 2 unit... In fact I think it's the Min. man for civ 3. I agree though cool loking unit.

As to the other... I have edited many of the DYP units to my taste, toughening some, downgrading others, I just cant leave well enough (or superb!:D ) alone. Since you are fairly new to the site look up the new unit graphics thread for a WIDE variety of ad on units, most seem to work very well w/ DYP.

thestonesfan
Aug 16, 2002, 12:53 PM
I've gone through the unit list and downloaded the ones I thought I could squeeze in, but didn't find a Minute Man. I'll check again.

J C Woodman
Aug 16, 2002, 01:08 PM
I thought that the Min. Man was a UU for the Americans but I could be totaly wrong...:crazyeye: But then again that may have been another mod or such:rolleyes:

Kal-el
Aug 16, 2002, 02:11 PM
dog,

to be honest I don't know if there are any units in this mod that aren't available elsewhere. There may be a couple, but I have lost track of which AoK units are on this forum and which ones I got via other sources. ;)

JC,

The image that you are using as your avatar was designed by animepornstar and was originally going to be used as a UU for the swedish civilization he/she was designing. AFAIK he never completed the unit, it never got beyond a 3D preview. Its a shame it never got finished.

As for having the minute man as the american UU, I don't think that is such a good idea. The UU can start a Golden Age and the US golden age was not in 1776. Our Golden Age was probably during the 1950's when the rest of the world was realing from the horrors of WWII. Over hear the country was booming.

Morbius
Aug 16, 2002, 06:18 PM
english longbowmen could fire up to 15 arrows a minute. they didnt need much time to 'reload'.

they were capable fighters with the short sword, and they were protected by chain mail, normally.

english longbowmen started training at the age of 7, and only the best were later allowed to serve in military units, the rest became hunters, normally.
starting that early with military training means you can spare some time for other weapons as well.

they were sometimes even used to indeed charge into the enemy. and not without success, since their melee skill was superior to that of most rather untrained infantry units.

im only talking about the ENGLISH longbowmen, of course.

Greeko
Aug 16, 2002, 06:41 PM
Can someone make a Offensive Powered Armor and a Defensive one?

Morbius
Aug 17, 2002, 06:51 AM
some more armors/panzers/tanks, name it would also be something id like to see, tho i understand that it might be unbalancing the game if the focus was too much on tank warfare ... or wouldnt it? :)

Shaka Brown
Aug 17, 2002, 06:54 AM
Its a conspiracy i tells ya no man can do this allz alone
no man but sid meier AKA kal el

O yeah on a more serious note can u tell me where you got the chariot archer cus when i try to install it says it that charitarcherdeath.flc is corrupt so so far ive just been usin chariotdeath.flc so that tha game dosent crash :p

KDan
Aug 17, 2002, 07:56 AM
No more tanks... more futuristic infantry in battlemechs :-) You can nick most of the graphics from Ctp, too. They had a fairly nice genetic age/diamond age tech tree/unit bunch :-)

Don't bother importing the Leviathans tho... :-P

Daniel

zulu9812
Aug 17, 2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Morbius
english longbowmen could fire up to 15 arrows a minute. they didnt need much time to 'reload'.

they were capable fighters with the short sword, and they were protected by chain mail, normally.

english longbowmen started training at the age of 7, and only the best were later allowed to serve in military units, the rest became hunters, normally.
starting that early with military training means you can spare some time for other weapons as well.

they were sometimes even used to indeed charge into the enemy. and not without success, since their melee skill was superior to that of most rather untrained infantry units.

im only talking about the ENGLISH longbowmen, of course.

Weren't they actually Welsh? :p

Morbius
Aug 17, 2002, 12:00 PM
that is a good question that i cannot give you the answer to.
but on second thought, it might have been a purely rethorical question to reveal the fact that i merely possess a certain half-knowledge about the issue, for which i can only salute you.

thestonesfan
Aug 17, 2002, 12:20 PM
Well, whatever the case, they are portrayed badly in the game.

Isak
Aug 17, 2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Shaka Brown
O yeah on a more serious note can u tell me where you got the chariot archer cus when i try to install it says it that charitarcherdeath.flc is corrupt so so far ive just been usin chariotdeath.flc so that tha game dosent crash :p You should try to download the mod again - there may be more corrupt files in the Zip/Exe you've got. And I think the Chariot Archer is one of the AOK files not found on the board, but you could check out the Units forum, I may be wrong.. :)

Kal-el
Aug 17, 2002, 03:38 PM
I am not doing this alone. Believe me, if I didn't have help from others, most notably Isak and RobO, but others too, this mod would still be in v.4.

tmarcl
Aug 17, 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Shaka Brown
[B]Its a conspiracy i tells ya no man can do this allz alone
no man but sid meier AKA kal el


Hmm...I see the connection. Sid Meier's initials are SM. Kal-El is the birthname of...Superman! Yes! It's true! They *are* one and the same!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Marc

Morbius
Aug 17, 2002, 04:43 PM
dont laugh, it makes sense. -- it might be true, who knows. it makes sense ... it makes sense ...

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 17, 2002, 05:47 PM
Just some thoughts

first i wish you could do a double irragation like in the old game.

one for the original irragation for when you first learn it

then one for farming

also studies a little on first crop demestications.

middle easta frica was wheat europe was barley. asia rice. north america as corn. south anericas first and their staple for the incans and such was beans. i think beans should be added as a hills jungle kind of food maybe? int he world map can be added to south america.

also think camles for mid asia and arabia and llamas for south america would be important as well.

add camels to desert lands.

and llamas to mountain

also you need something to make weaving mor eimpoartnat.

have sheep you find dure demestication be able to provide wool also add cotton as a crop.

have if you have both wool and silk and cotton. you be able to add a production bonus with weaving called jumping betty. which was important invention that made amss producing cloth possible.
or have a fashion district. when you have all three something that adds culture and happiness.

just some quick ideas.

Dingocat85
Aug 17, 2002, 07:46 PM
1) I think one of the big reasons the AI lags in the later game, is because it *flocks* to Theocracy. In every game I can think of, once they have the Tech, all AI governments switch to Theocracy...for the rest of the game :eek:
The result? The AI gains a tile-penalty (something in Theocracy that's not in the Civilopedia, btw) for the rest of the game, acquires loads of money that they can only use to buy techs at ridiculous prices with (from me :lol: ), and every once in a while "hurries a city to death" - IOW, the citizens get so disgruntled from hurried production, AND since their city-tile is only producing 2 food, the AI makes every citizen an entertainer - and the city starves to death.
IMHO, this can be solved by making the AI *like* later governments more than Theocracy - in the same way the AI is made to *hate* Chiefdom.

2) The Civilopedia (CP from now on) says Sun Tzu's GW requires barracks - this is not true.

3) Calvary can't be upgraded to Humvee! But strangely enough, all lower horse-units (dragoon, horseman, etc.) can be upgraded...

4) On the subject of the Humvee - the CP doesn't mention they treat all terrain as roads.

5) The way I see it, Airports enable planes to fly back & forth between two destinations.Airfield bases, on the other hand, are like Airplane factories - like an Airplane barracks, in a sense. Airports should take the 'airlift' ability away from Airfield bases, leaving Airfield bases with only the abilites to A) repair planes in one turn, and B) make veteran air units.

6) The first ironclad battle in the world was fought during the US Civil War - the Ironclad USS Monitor (and three Steam Frigates), vs. the Ironclad CSS Virginia. To sum it up, the CSS Virginia destroyed one steam frigate and crippled two others without a scratch from the Steam Firgate's fire. Finally, the USS Monitor started firing upon the CSS Virginia - their shots bounced off each other's hulls, and they finally retreated after 4 1/2 hours - the only damage on either boat being a few dents here & there.

Dyp makes steam frigates in every way better than Ironclads. Besides making the Ironclad stronger than Steam Frigates, I have two ideas:

.........A) Ironclads weren't built to travel for long voyages - maybe
they should be limited to just Coast & Ocean travel (if
possible), as opposed to Steam Frigate's ability to travel
overseas.

........B) The first Ironclad prototypes took an extensive time to
build. Steam Power should [not] let players build
Ironclads, but instead enable each civ to build a SW in
cities with a Shipyard - maybe called Ironclads studies -
that enables production of Ironclads.

7) Dyp made the Roman Legionary 10 shields more expensive than other Swordsmen, for a grand total of 40 shields, and stats of 3 att / 2 def / 1 mov. Elephant riders, however, have 3 att. / 3 def. / 2 mov... and also cost 40 shields :confused: . At the least, legionaries' price should drop back down to 30, and elephants stary at 40. Training a legion of men seems easier than taming a whole unit's worth of elephants, anyway...

Othersise, great mod. Keep up the good work! :D

Greeko
Aug 17, 2002, 10:10 PM
The colors of my civ and another civ flashes on my units and also the AI civ units. Does anyone have this problem with Version .84?

Anarch
Aug 18, 2002, 03:24 AM
Is this mode finished or what? Does it work smoohtly without any problems? :rolleyes:

KDan
Aug 18, 2002, 03:46 AM
It works smoothly, but like everything alive in the world (including civ3) is always a work in progress.

Daniel

Morbius
Aug 18, 2002, 04:04 AM
dingocat, good points about ironclads and theocracy. i agree.
a roman legion should be a bit more powerful perhaps. 3/3/2?
they could outmarch any other army (including cavalry, which is not very difficult, since cavalry marches slower than infantry. the only speed advantage exists when charging or maneuvering on the battle field, but their overland-travel speed is rather low).

to my knowledge its impossible to defend with either cavalry or elephants.

elephants have 3/3/2 ATM. perhaps 4/1/2 would be better?

Dingocat85
Aug 18, 2002, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Greeko
The colors of my civ and another civ flashes on my units and also the AI civ units. Does anyone have this problem with Version .84?

IIRC It's not a Dyp problem - that happened to me when I was running stuff other than Civ3 in the background - way back when I played *regular* Civ3 :eek: :rolleyes: . I suggest restarting the comp, opening everything other than Civ3 that you want to open, and *then* starting Civ3.

Higher Game
Aug 18, 2002, 12:32 PM
Elephant riders are way too powerful...

disorganizer
Aug 18, 2002, 01:41 PM
just a stupid question:
could it be the ai is a bit slow on huge maps with dyp?

Isak
Aug 18, 2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Greeko
The colors of my civ and another civ flashes on my units and also the AI civ units. Does anyone have this problem with Version .84? Like Dingocat85 says, this may be a Civ3 problem, not a mod bug, but I know I won't sleep 'till I find out so could you tell me which Civs this happens to and when it happens (just a few examples, so I can try to recreate it)

Also feel free to send me a savegame, but please include some instructions on where I should look for the glitches, or what to do to reproduce them.

Disorganizer: I think the AI is it's usual cunning self, even when playing on big maps, but since the chance of AI survival is slightly decreased, I encourage you to play with the maximum number of civs on any big map. We're still balancing the later stages of the game, and eventually the AI should be quite able to compete, but even then, due to the Food requirements, a few Civs will be destined for early extermination, so in order to minimize the effect of that, you should make sure there are a lot of civs ready to pick up the challenge if one goes down, so to speak.

Matthew
Aug 18, 2002, 02:41 PM
Is there any way that we could have more starting races without having larger maps? This would then lead to lots of combat early on (in the BCs) as territory is fought over, with bigger campaigns coming later on when civs are more established.

Greeko
Aug 18, 2002, 03:03 PM
I sent a savegame. It isn't the one with the original problem but i made one that had the same rules. I tried to do this as fast as possible so i cheated. :eek: Look at the units inside the AI cities, They flash my civ color and their civ color. :confused: Since 2 AI civs are doing this I think every AI civ in this save will have this problem. My units color (if you can tell) is flashing lighter and darker for some reason. Thnx in advance

bshirt
Aug 18, 2002, 04:48 PM
Dingocat;

Very true. Tha AI "always" slowly kills itself w/ Therocracy every time.

The AI now, due to DYP and/or Firaxis improvements, plays a much, much tougher early to mid game which is fun. However, by the 1800's, the AI slowly self destructs with Therocracy. To a large degree, this ruins the 2nd half of the game.

I'll bet RobO, Isak or Kal-El will fix this soon though.

Rory_20_uk
Aug 18, 2002, 05:19 PM
Greetings all! I hope that you all have not spent too many lonely nights wondering where I was - suffice that I was safe :D
I see that the posts are still ploughing on at the same phenominal rate! I would like to say again relating back to the old debate over the Poles in the mod that the Polish-Latvian empire was more when Poland was a power to be reckoned with.
And here are some more lil' bugs that I came across:

- When the longboat sinks, the animation is of a galley. IS this intentional?
- Is it correct that district courthouses do not require courthouses to build?
- When great wonders such as the Oracle become obselete the shrines dissapear as well. Is this intended? It's damned annoying :)


Good to be back online!

dog
Aug 18, 2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
dog,

to be honest I don't know if there are any units in this mod that aren't available elsewhere. There may be a couple, but I have lost track of which AoK units are on this forum and which ones I got via other sources. ;)

Thanks for the answer Kal-el. I've been looking over the first couple of pages of this thread (I'd need a week's vacation to read the whole thing! :eek: ) and I think the AoK units that you have which have not been posted elsewhere are the Elephant Rider, Elephant Archer (tho jimmyh made this one also), and the Chariot Archer. Could any good soul post these units?? Pretty please :love: ? If I wasn't on dial-up I'd d/l the whole mod and sort thru it but 23mb is a long time d/ling for me. :(

Other possible units not posted elsewhere: Corvette (is this unique animation?)
Jeep (unsure what you might be using for this)
Crusader (I think this might be another AoK unit not posted elsewhere)
Merchant (maybe another AoK unit like the horse with cart??)
Samurai (sounds like you have different anim for this unit...AoK??)
Champion :confused:

and from the DyP website previews: Freight :confused:
Caravan :confused:
Fanatic (is this the standard Immortals anim or something else?)

If these units have unique animation then the whole CivFanatics modding community would be ecstatic to see them added to Lab Monkey's library. Especially me! :D

Thanks in advance. :cool:

Bamspeedy
Aug 18, 2002, 07:36 PM
Well, I've been playing this mod. First mod I've ever tried. I'm using version .84 and the 180X180 world map for this mod and playing the Americans with 16 civs. I built a few rangers and they grabbed huts to get me over half way through the ancient era, so I entered the middle ages before 0 A.D.

I'm slipping back to my builder style of play rather than the ICS style I had been doing with the normal rules. I'm trying to build every improvement in every city. I CAN'T KEEP UP! With this mod I was having flashbacks to CTP I & II. I never run out of stuff to build. I haven't built a military at all, just 6 free defenders I got from culture flips. Learning techs every 3 turns.

France is very rich. I could sell them a bunch of techs for 7700+ gold and another 100+ gold/turn. Persia built up infrastructure quite nicely, everyone else just had the heroic epic in their capital and was building a caravan.

And one mistake I have found. The civlopedia says Social Democracy has minimal corruption. It really is communal. I was quite surprised when my super-science city lost a few gold.

Dog - some units don't have their own animation yet. This is still a work in process. Some units do have their own animation, but others don't. The engineer is pretty cool to watch him in action, he has his own graphic and different animations for what he is doing. The ranger is just the archer unit, labelled differently. The fanatic looks kinda like a stormtrooper (from Star Wars) to me, haven't seen the fanatic fight yet, though.

Kal-el
Aug 18, 2002, 07:56 PM
Rory,

I was too lazy to try and convert the longboat death animation. So it just uses the galley.

The District Courthouse should require a Courthouse.

Any improvement that is given by a wonder dissapears when that wonder becomes obsolete. The wonder is only giving you the effect of the improvement not actually placing the improvement in all your cities. Take as an example the Chichen Itza. It gives the effects of Courthouses in all your cities but doesn't put courthouses in all your cities. Courthouses reduce corruption, but the Chichen Itza was a temple to the gods at which human asacrifices were performed. The Chichen Itza scares the populace into behaving themselves, or however you want to think of it. :)

Dingocat, et al.,

So Theocracy is the Culprit? If it is that would be great!!! It would be an easy solution to the AI ineptitude. Could some of you test the mod with Theocracy Disabled. Just go into the editor and set the Prerequisite to Advanced Warfare, or in the alternative, set the corruption value to problematic. I would appreciate feedback on both possible solutions.

The problem with setting the civs to hate theocracy is that then none of them will ever move into it. This may be a good thing. :sheepish: I will probably have to rebalance Theocracy.

on to your other points:
2) Sun Tzu should require barracks

3) no horse units should be able to upgrade to the Humvee

4) Ok, that should be fixed in the next edition

5) There are two flags that have been divided between the Airport and the Airforce Base. The Airforce base has the "Veteran Air Units" Flag ticked and the Airport has the "Allows Air Trade" flag ticked. There is no flag that enables airlift. The division of the Airport and the Harbor, while a great idea, the desired effect may not be truly achievable given the limitations of hard-coded aspects of the game. We may have to recombine those particular improvements.

6A) Ironclads are currently set to sink in Ocean, they should probably be set to sink in Sea as well. If they are given this additional restriction I may be inclined to up their stats to 6/7/3. How does that sit with you.

6B) Unfortunately it is not currently possible ot set improvements as prerequisites for units. Oh that it were so, the possiblities that would open up before us.

7) Good point. I guess the best solution to that issue would be to raise the cost of the elephant rider to 5 and drop the Legionary and the Immortal back to 3.

Mathew,

You can set the number of civs in the editor on the World Sizes page. They are currently set to the defaults, but can be set to anything your heart desires.

Choaticwanderer,

I wish we could have double irragation like Civ2 too. To bad we can't.

Its also a shame that the game does not allow for the transplantation of resources. That would allow for a more accurate placement of resources. The current resources in v0.84 are the same as those prior to to 1.29f at which time we could only have 36 viewable icons. I actually had 37 resources because Gold and Silver Shared the Same Icon.

Camels are on the list of future resources. Llamas was up for debate prior to 1.29 but didn't make the cut at that time. I am still debating whether they should be included. They were only found in the Andes until very recently but may be included as a possible luxury resource.

Weaving gives you silks, having access to an additional luxury resource seems pretty valuable. But what do you suggest to make it a more valuable tech?

Cotton will also be added as a luxury resource along with cocoa.

The commerce point from the sheep represents the sale of the wool.

The fashion district idea, believe it or not, was something we had looked at early on in the mod, but decided against it.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments.

Please test the Theocracy settings.

Kal-el
Aug 18, 2002, 08:16 PM
Dog,

Corvette - Just using the Privateer, but would love to have this altered to remove the skull and crossbones.
Jeep - Got nothing for this yet, currently using the HumVee but hoping the PTW WWII Unit Set includes a Jeep
Crusader - I think this unit is availble in the Unit Forum
Merchant - Nothing new here yet
Samurai - Don't think this is on the forums, but I haven't been given permission to post it here, only been given permission to post it with the mod.
Champion - See Samurai

Freight - Nothing new here, but Pesoloco is working on it
Caravan - I think this is available on the forum
Fanatic - This is a piss poor conversion that I did of the immortal. I haven't posted it on the forum due to the low quality.

crom
Aug 18, 2002, 09:23 PM
Hi I just downloaded your mod v 0.84 with patch 1.29f. And at the beginning of the game when you adjust your science level to less than 50% (not sure on exact number, at work right now) and you are low on cash, the game will put the science back to 50% every turn, until I built a warrior. Does this have to do with the rate cap or something? but why would building a warrior stop this.
Has this happened to anyone else? this happened both times for me. I was playing Americans, monarchy level, huge map

RobO
Aug 19, 2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by crom
Hi I just downloaded your mod v 0.84 with patch 1.29f. And at the beginning of the game when you adjust your science level to less than 50% (not sure on exact number, at work right now) and you are low on cash, the game will put the science back to 50% every turn, until I built a warrior. Does this have to do with the rate cap or something? but why would building a warrior stop this.
Has this happened to anyone else? this happened both times for me. I was playing Americans, monarchy level, huge map
The rate cap issue is explained here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=393805#post393805)
But the rate cap of chiefdom in 0.84 is 60%, not 50%. It was 50% in some of the earlier versions.
I don't think the warrior made the difference - It is more likely that your city limits expanded a the same time as you built the warrior, causing a redistribution of your worker and thus more commerce income.

RobO
Aug 19, 2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el
6A) Ironclads are currently set to sink in Ocean, they should probably be set to sink in Sea as well. If they are given this additional restriction I may be inclined to up their stats to 6/7/3. How does that sit with you.

Unfortunately, once you get Magnetism (or is it Navigaton?) all ships can cross oceans with impunity :mad:
Even canoes :rolleyes:

So it seems that the only way to limit the effectiveness of the Ironclad is to reduce the movement to 2.

dog
Aug 19, 2002, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el
Dog,

Corvette - Just using the Privateer, but would love to have this altered to remove the skull and crossbones.
Jeep - Got nothing for this yet, currently using the HumVee but hoping the PTW WWII Unit Set includes a Jeep
Crusader - I think this unit is availble in the Unit Forum
Merchant - Nothing new here yet
Samurai - Don't think this is on the forums, but I haven't been given permission to post it here, only been given permission to post it with the mod.
Champion - See Samurai

Freight - Nothing new here, but Pesoloco is working on it
Caravan - I think this is available on the forum
Fanatic - This is a piss poor conversion that I did of the immortal. I haven't posted it on the forum due to the low quality.

Well, I went ahead and d/l'd the whole thing as I slept last night. I see several new unit animations (Villager/Champion, New Samurai, Monk, Missionary, Elephant Rider, Chariot Archer, Cavalier, Cart, New Archer...maybe a couple more). I won't post them though on the forum tho if you don't want me to. Thanks for all your hard work. :goodjob:

Xstar
Aug 19, 2002, 07:29 AM
Hello!

I installed Civ 3 1.29f and then I installed the latest version of Double Your Pleasure.

Ok, now I started a normal game, regent difficulty, playing the russians. Created the capital moscow in a pretty good place with some olive oil nearby. Ok, so I immediately start losing money. I disband my warrior. After 10 turns, moscow grows. Then it stops. My worker can not irrigate (or farm) or do anything. I automate him and he sits in the city. All i can do is sit with my little capital and wait for new techs to be researched for like 4 000 years. If I try to build a settler (or clan you call it) its not possible as moscow only is of the size 2.

Ok, thats bad, so I try another game. Same thing there. What the hell is wrong? Aren't you supposed to be able to play this game on regent difficulty?

Please help!

RobO
Aug 19, 2002, 09:12 AM
Xstar, the settler only requires 1 pop at start.

You should stop losing money once your city grows, and disbanding a warior doesn't make any difference - Chiefdom has no unit maintenance.

Your worker can build roads once you get "The Wheel". Until then, I usually use him as an explorer.

Are you sure you are playing version 0.84?

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 19, 2002, 02:11 PM
at this point rival civs never study weaving i found civs all the way into tanks still not knowing weaving LOL

need to make it worth while for civs to learn it. i guess a luiery silk sint worth it. and since 9 out of ten times i have no silk in my lands it isnt worth it for me either

though it seems a land can trade silk if you discover it. even if they ahve no weeaving ability.

this seems like a big will check it again. but i believe it was on the lsit of luxeries they could trade at the same time as weaving was something i could trade them.

also is their anyway to fix the timber in graslands?

it seems that the comp cuts down forest that contain the luxery timber. but the timber survives. even though thier isnt any woods. same with silk.

these are both prob civ 3 problems in general but i think a forest or jungle only good should vanishes if you remove the forest or jungle

also it seems i can upgrade to units like swordman and riflemen. though the city isnt conected to any other city with either iron or salt peter.

this is weird i jsut build a warrior then upgrade it upward with out any benifits. will again test this mroe to be sure. but this happened witha couple of jungle cities with no roads to any of place even other civs.


thats all for now

curswine
Aug 20, 2002, 02:53 AM
are you sure that city didn't have a harbour? they will be importing the luxury so that could be why it upgraded

Jeystone
Aug 20, 2002, 03:24 AM
Is it a bug or wot.

A Terime carries 1 and upgrades to a Carvel that carries 3
A Carvel upgrades to a Galleon that ony carries 2??

;)

Bamspeedy
Aug 20, 2002, 02:05 PM
Caravans

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if anyone has tested whether or not taking caravans out of the game would actually help the AI. Does the AI actually use caravans efficiently? The AI loves to build them I have noticed, but how does the AI use them? Does it save them only for wonders? And the problem is that the AI builds the caravan without any improvements in the caravan building city!

I like to build mills, forges, factories, etc. in the city that I want to be building a caravan so I can complete it faster. The AI sets caravan building as a top priority before all the production improvements, thus taking forever to build a caravan.

With 16 civs on the 180 X 180 map, the tech rate is way too fast for all civs not on North America. With all the civs over in europe and asia each having contact with each other and researching different tech paths, they blaze through the tech tree at an alarming rate. I was America and got more than half the ancient era techs from goody huts and researching the ones i didn't have at the minimum turns (fastest rate), and when I met the first european civ I was still alot of techs behind (on CHIEFTAIN of all levels :confused:!!)

One way to stop the mass exodus to Siberia having Siberia look like a checkerboard with little size 1 towns of all diffent european civs is to get rid of all the forests and leave it all tundra. I made everything east of the Ural Mountains, tundra. Of course, then the map isn't the prettiest, but you prevent the AI settler diarrhea going to Siberia, Although you do still get the checkerboard of AI cities south of there in the area about where Mongolia is. I did the same thing to parts of Canada and Greenland. I allow a few forest or hill squares to allow a couple of cities, but not having that whole area fill up with AI cities.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 20, 2002, 03:00 PM
Yeah curswine

it was middle of jungle no coast line.

it had no roads to it because it was too young and i hadnt got workers at that moment to waiste sending them through the jungle to build roads.

i thought maybe it was connected to a rival civ that i had conected in another way but that wasnt the case either.

so im not sure.

this of course only started later after riflemen but before airplanes and stuff

so not sure.


also im working with this mod to make more ancient races and working forward.

im working on the Mayan civ. but i wonder if i should include the city chechen Itza with their being a wonder named that.

also does anyone make leader pics. like to make some for me????

anyway thanks

Isak
Aug 20, 2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by ChaoticWanderer
Yeah curswine

it was middle of jungle no coast line.

it had no roads to it because it was too young and i hadnt got workers at that moment to waiste sending them through the jungle to build roads.If you've still got a savegame, please send it to me, and I will check it out.

Morbius
Aug 20, 2002, 06:22 PM
not sure, but i thought any great wonder should produce culture ... that doesnt work.
i am in possession of a city that was not originally mine. i conquered it, it deposed my governor, and i took it back.

there are no more resisting folks, but 0 culture is produced per turn, tho the great buddha, the great library, and another wonder are in there.
i didnt build any of them.

i have a safe game that i could email if that would help ...

Bamspeedy
Aug 20, 2002, 06:34 PM
You don't get culture from captured wonders. Only the civ that built the wonder gets the culture while he owns it. It's a civ3 thing, nothing to do with the modpack.

Anton
Aug 21, 2002, 01:26 AM
I'd just like to reiterate 2 previously mentioned possible bugs that I too have been experiencing.

At the start of the game I'll set my Science to 60% and leave luxury level at 0%. I'll build some improvements and have to decrease my science level to pay for the maintenance. Every turn, however, my science rate will automatically return to 60% meaning I have to manually decrease it again.

I'm not surer how long it lasts for but it has happened in at least 3 games.

It also seems that a city needs to built near a food resource for it to grow past a population of 2 under chiefdom or despotism. Non food resource squares only give 2 food which can only support a city with a population of 2 then zero growth is reached. This means you can never had a considerably large city whilst waging a war under chiefdom in the early ages. I understand that this may be intentional though.

I'm using the 0.84 mod. Other than what I mentioned above this is an excellent mod.

Thank you for taking the time to create such an improvement.

Edit: I just realised another slight problem which is probably just personal thing. I'm playing on a huge map with 6 other Civs and have just discovered Steam Engine. I currnetly occupy the largest continent in the world which is over 50% of all the land mass yet somehow there is only 1 coal deposit on the enitre continent and its in the middle of the jungle.

I would have thought coal would be a more widespread resource due to its extensive overuse during the Industrial Age.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 21, 2002, 02:15 AM
sorry no saved game deleted it when i upgraded to 8.4.

also got two civs done in ancient age will be doing more research on adding more later.

still need some more leader faces if anyone has or can make some.



also i have been wonderng if you guys have turned down the amount of resoruces because as of now i am getting very little in the way of survival.

i had to go to war to get iron and be the agressor.

i usually go for the diplomtic route. this lack of any good items i found only three known sources anyware near me and they were still over 50 turns from my start. plus i only saw one copper.

jsut wondering if you guys turned it down because their is way to little in the way of resources

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Anton
At the start of the game I'll set my Science to 60% and leave luxury level at 0%. I'll build some improvements and have to decrease my science level to pay for the maintenance. Every turn, however, my science rate will automatically return to 60% meaning I have to manually decrease it again.Check out the Strategy guide thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=393805#post393805) for the explanation of the rate cap.It also seems that a city needs to built near a food resource for it to grow past a population of 2 under chiefdom or despotism. Non food resource squares only give 2 food which can only support a city with a population of 2 then zero growth is reached. This means you can never had a considerably large city whilst waging a war under chiefdom in the early ages. I understand that this may be intentional though.It is intentional - we want to limit the size of cities early on, and we also want to make sure that supporting a large empire under Chiefdom is virtually impossible.I just realised another slight problem which is probably just personal thing. I'm playing on a huge map with 6 other Civs and have just discovered Steam Engine. I currnetly occupy the largest continent in the world which is over 50% of all the land mass yet somehow there is only 1 coal deposit on the enitre continent and its in the middle of the jungle.

I would have thought coal would be a more widespread resource due to its extensive overuse during the Industrial Age. As far as I can remember we haven't changed the appearance ratios for Coal (or most of the other "old" resources), but by adding in more resource types, I guess each resource is a bit less likely to appear - but not much. I think you just got unlucky - I've had the same thing happen to me in regular Civ3, not with coal though but with horses (and as I play as the Iroquois 9 out of 10 times, no horses is a real stinker :mad: ).

It's just part of the game - part of the incentive to make you wanna go and poof some of the other civs out of existence, so you can get your hands on their real estate ;)

I think that answer applies to your question too, ChaoticWanderer.

Anton
Aug 21, 2002, 06:30 AM
Thanks Isak. It all makes sense now.

Anyone have any ideas on the timeframe for the next update?

Dingocat85
Aug 21, 2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by RobO


Unfortunately, once you get Magnetism (or is it Navigaton?) all ships can cross oceans with impunity :mad:
Even canoes :rolleyes:

Here's a slightly crazy idea..why not eliminate the Navigation and Astronomy bonuses? I don't mean delete the Technologies from the game..but disable the 'everyone can cross seas' and 'everyone can cross oceans' features. Instead, canoes/galleys/triremes can only traverse coasts, all ships developed after Astronomy (except the Longboat, of course) can traverse oceans, and all ships developed after Navigation (except the Ironclad) can traverse seas.
There are two advantages I see in doing this:
...........1) It forces players to have to upgrade their ships in order to traverse more dangerous waters, as in real life...no more seeing the AI in the Modern Age sending its brilliant military force in a canoe :lol:
...........2) This enables later ships, i.e. the Ironclad, to effectively have the 'sink in oceans' attribute, without having it be cancelled out by the 'everyone can cross oceans' bonus found in Navigation.
(Ok, maybe we can let everyship cross Seas with Navigation, but certainly don't let everyship cross Oceans with Navigation. I'm thinking we let everyship cross oceans much later, maybe with the invention of Radar, or Sattelites?)

Originally posted by Kal-el
3) no horse units should be able to upgrade to the Humvee

Funny, in every version of Dyp I can remember, I've clicked through the 'Horseman Knight [upgrades to] etc, etc...' upgrade chain, and it's always ended @ Humvee:confused:


Ironclads are currently set to sink in Ocean, they should probably be set to sink in Sea as well. If they are given this additional restriction I may be inclined to up their stats to 6/7/3. How does that sit with you.

Ehh..6/7/3 still doesn't seem fair to the Ironclad. IMHO, even though Ironclads were Iron-plated wooden ships, it still made them much stronger on the defense (it is iron, after all), and slightly stronger offensively - iron ships can hold bigger guns better than wodden ships, b/c of the added stability of iron.
IMHO, except for transport capacity, speed (maybe even speed), and ocean-faring ability, Ironclads and Steam Frigates should have their current stats switched :eek:


6B) Unfortunately it is not currently possible ot set improvements as prerequisites for units. Oh that it were so, the possiblities that would open up before us.


Hear me out Kal-el, for I have a plan ;)

It [U]is possible to make a unit appear with the construction of a Wonder - think Manhattan Project. But what if we were to do that same sort of thing - with a Small Wonder? :cool:

IMHO - upon the discovery of Steam Power, a new Small Wonder will be available. This SW can only be constructed in cities with a Shipyard, and access to Iron - let's call this SW 'Ironclad Development' for now. Upon completion of 'Ironclad Development', the Civ that built it can build Ironclads.

In exemplum: The Americans build 'Ironclad Development' first - now, only they can build Ironclads. Next, the English build 'Ironclad Development' - now only the English & Americans can build Ironclads - etc, etc.

Two last comments, concerning the world map:

1) Early Middle-age Europe was plagued with Barbarian Invasions - think the Huns & Avars, who both used Horse Archers. Why not make the Barbarian Rider upgrade to Horse Archer?
2) I admittedly haven't checked :blush: - but can Eurasians cross into the Americas via the Aleutian Islands? there would have to be some Ocean, of course, but I could see them as an *alternate* way to get there.

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Dingocat85


Here's a slightly crazy idea..why not eliminate the Navigation and Astronomy bonuses? I don't mean delete the Technologies from the game..but disable the 'everyone can cross seas' and 'everyone can cross oceans' features. That's not a bad idea actually - a novel thought (to me anyway) - of course OFL has the final word, and at the moment I can't figure out if this would have unwanted consequences, but still...:goodjob:
Funny, in every version of Dyp I can remember, I've clicked through the 'Horseman Knight [upgrades to] etc, etc...' upgrade chain, and it's always ended @ Humvee:confused:You're right, it has been like that for a long time, and still (as of v.0.84) is - I think OFL meant that it was going to be changed though. It [U]is possible to make a unit appear with the construction of a Wonder - think Manhattan Project. But what if we were to do that same sort of thing - with a Small Wonder? :cool: That unfortunately is not possible - the Allows ALL Civs To Build Nuclear Devices flag only exists for Great Wonders - and it can only be used once in each mod :( 1) Early Middle-age Europe was plagued with Barbarian Invasions - think the Huns & Avars, who both used Horse Archers. Why not make the Barbarian Rider upgrade to Horse Archer?Would be nice, but unfortunately Barbarians can't upgrade their units and we are only able to set 2 units as being Barbarian units (3 including the Sea Unit)

Morbius
Aug 21, 2002, 05:03 PM
just wondering ... in case you want german cities to have their original german names, i could provide you with the necessary data.
there are still a coupla mistakes, actually.
like 'nuremberg' or ' cologne' or even the leader 'richtoffen' (has to be richthofen)
just in case ... :)

Kal-el
Aug 21, 2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Dingocat85
Here's a slightly crazy idea..why not eliminate the Navigation and Astronomy bonuses? I don't mean delete the Technologies from the game..but disable the 'everyone can cross seas' and 'everyone can cross oceans' features. Instead, canoes/galleys/triremes can only traverse coasts, all ships developed after Astronomy (except the Longboat, of course) can traverse oceans, and all ships developed after Navigation (except the Ironclad) can traverse seas. ...

The flags are actually "Allows Trade over Seas" and "Allows Trade over Oceans". To not check those flags would be to disable the ability to trade across the seas and oceans. Something I think most people would prefere to retain over the annoying ability of earlier ships to eventually be able to cross safely. Its a good idea, but won't work. :(

Kal-el
Aug 21, 2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Jeystone
Is it a bug or wot.

A Terime carries 1 and upgrades to a Carvel that carries 3
A Carvel upgrades to a Galleon that ony carries 2??

;)

The Galleon carries 4. You may be looking at the galley which only carries 2.

Regarding the Trader/Cravan/Merchant/Freight units:

It would be a real shame to lose these units altogether. RobO has suggested and I think he may be right, that it may be necessary to push them back to the industrial era. That of course means that the Commercial Civs need a new TSU. Any thoughts on a possible alternative TSU for the commercial civs?

I would also like to see what happens with the Theocracy test before we make any decision on the Merchant Class of Units. Is anyone testing the Modified Theocracy solution?

Thanks for being patient everybody. The next release of the mod might take a while. If we get some good info on Theocracy we may be able to release a patch that fixes theocracy and also might include a few extras that we are working on for the next release. Right now I am hoping to have it ready somewhere around mid September. Redoing the tech tree is taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and now that I am working full time instead of going to school I have less time for working on the mod.

Morbius,

Sure, that would be great. The more accurate the better. Sendme the info via email. Thanks.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 21, 2002, 10:21 PM
ok i have mayan and phonecian civs built and working wrking on info for incan.

need info if anyone kind find them. on mayan leaders and generals. and phonecians got a few but would like more to make it better.

when i got a few civs will send it to someone if they want the civs to see if they fit into what you guys are building

now onto the Commercial unit

i never ever have built the commercial unit before because it always seemed a waiste of money and time.

i think something like a marco polo type character.

a explorer like charcter thts 0/0 and has the ability to make a colony jsut an idea. this wuld help commercial races grab luxeries faster.

GIDustin
Aug 21, 2002, 11:09 PM
Remember:

Since the Trireme only has a transport of one, the AI will NOT use it to expand as they ALWAYS defend their settlers. AI only uses ships with transport of AT LEAST 2 to expand.

I dont know if you would like to change your mod now, but I am smart enough to use 2 triremes, the AI however is not.

GIDustin

RobO
Aug 22, 2002, 12:01 AM
I'm playing a game with Theocracy effectively disabled (comes with Space Flight), but it takes me so long to get anywhere that others could well beat me to it. Any takers?

RobO
Aug 22, 2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by GIDustin
Remember:
Since the Trireme only has a transport of one, the AI will NOT use it to expand as they ALWAYS defend their settlers. AI only uses ships with transport of AT LEAST 2 to expand.
I dont know if you would like to change your mod now, but I am smart enough to use 2 triremes, the AI however is not.
I think that's acceptable. It is a warship, not a freighter.

Harrier
Aug 22, 2002, 08:21 AM
City sizes.

I've played two DYP games so far. One at chieftain and the other Warlord. Ive noticed that AI cities appear to grow at half the rate of mine.

Taking a snapshot at the year 2050.

Chieftain

My top 3 cities: 23, 20, 20 size.
AI cites: 12, 12, 11.

Warlord

My top 3 cities: 15, 15, 15 size.
AI cites: 7, 7, 6.

I dont know if this happens at higher levels yet. If it does may I suggest a small change to help the AI city growth.

Increase town size to 8 or 9.
Increase City size to 16 or 18.

Move the improvements Aqueduct and Sewer further back in the Tech tree.

In my warlord game I was initially well behind militarally, and lost most battles and had to sue for peace and pay bribes, until my cities began to outgrow the AIs, then more production and science income allowed me to catch up and overtake the AI players.

Its a pity there are only three city levels allowed, I was originally going to suggest adding two more city growth improvements in population steps of 4 or 5, until I looked at the editor.

i.e.

Size, Represents, Needs.

1 - 4 Hamlet nothing
5 - 9 Village Stone Works
10 - 14 Town Aqueduct
15 - 19 City Sewer System
20 + Metropolis Water Treatment Plant

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 08:49 AM
Remember that the Trireme is the Battleship of its day, while the galley is the transport ship. The galley can load 2 units so the AI should be able to use the Galley to colonize.

ChaoticWanderer,

Could you send me the stats that you are implementing for these civs? I would like to take a look at them.

The "Marco Polo" unit is an interesting idea.

RobO,

Why don't you post the save and hopefully somone will pick it up.

Harrier,

Have you tested the modified Theocracy settings? If not, please do and let me know how things turn out. It is crucial that I get some good feedback on this issue. Soren thinks it is probably the reason for the AI difficulties, I just want to make sure. I would like to keep Theocracy in the mod, in some modified form.

Thanks everybody.

curswine
Aug 22, 2002, 09:54 AM
I've just kind off blended this mod with abbamouse's/mice's 14 civs mod and am playing a good game at the moment as the hittites and have contacted the babylonians, zulus, persians and the morrocans just thought i'd let you know

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 09:59 AM
For the good of the mod, I am asking everybody to go to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30045&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=1) and vote that the Aborigine and Hebrews be removed from the list of seven civs Sween32 is making Leaderheads for and replace it with either the Mali, Sioux, or Siamese or even the Mayan.

Xstar
Aug 22, 2002, 10:04 AM
Hey Kal-El,

great mod! Especially like that you can have a big civilization before 0 AD, which is impossible with regular Civ... But I really, really miss a little but vital function. When you choose what a city is supposed to build, like a... hospital... and you don't know what the hospital is good for, there is no button to go to the civiliopedia like there was in Civ 2. Instead you have to close all windows and go to the civiliopedia manually and look it up yourself. Can't you include something better?

Xstar
Aug 22, 2002, 10:14 AM
Hey Kal-El,

great mod! Especially like that you can have a big civilization before 0 AD, which is impossible with regular Civ... But I really, really miss a little but vital function. When you choose what a city is supposed to build, like a... hospital... and you don't know what the hospital is good for, there is no button to go to the civiliopedia like there was in Civ 2. Instead you have to close all windows and go to the civiliopedia manually and look it up yourself. Can't you include something better?

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 11:22 AM
I have opened up a new thread for people to vote for which civs they would like to see added.

This poll does not affect which civs will be added to the next edition of DyP as those have already been decided, but it does affect the Sween32's priorities on which leaderheads to create. So in order to get good leaderheads for the new DyP civs please go and vote here, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=30380

The DyP civs will be:
Abyssinian/Ethiopian
Inca
Polish
Polynesian
Sioux/Dakota
Siamese
Tibetan

Others to follow in later editions:
Mayans
Mali
Dutch
Portuguese
and more

but I want to get those first ones in first. The others will come in time.

KDan
Aug 22, 2002, 12:04 PM
Hebrews sound like a civ that should be included. They have had a pretty big influence on the world, I'd say...

Would be nice, but unfortunately Barbarians can't upgrade their units and we are only able to set 2 units as being Barbarian units (3 including the Sea Unit)
Why not dump the barbarian sea unit? It's pretty useless anyway, not even the mild hassle that the ground ones are. It would give the barbarians a better punch to have horse archers.

On the marco polo idea, it shoud probably also be able to make roads very slowly or something like that...

Daniel

Isak
Aug 22, 2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by KDan
Why not dump the barbarian sea unit? It's pretty useless anyway, not even the mild hassle that the ground ones are. It would give the barbarians a better punch to have horse archers.
Only if the Horse Archers can swim - the game will put them in the Ocean :D

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 12:12 PM
You can't dump the barbararian sea unit.

I am not suggesting that the Hebrews not be included, just that they are not going to be included in the next release of the mod. Eventually I imagine that the mod will have many more civs than the 31 playable. But for now I am setting my sights on just adding 7.

I don't think the "Marco Polo" unit should be able to build roads, I think it would mess up the already confused AI. You can't differentiate between work speeds either. I know that Slaves work slower and industrious civs work faster, those are hardcoded into the game. You can not flag certain units to work faster or slower than others. The only way for the modder to influence work rate is through the govenment settings and with one tech that can be flagged to double work rate.

thestonesfan
Aug 22, 2002, 12:30 PM
The Hebrews never had a very powerful civilization, though.

daftpunk89
Aug 22, 2002, 12:51 PM
The Double Your Pleasure MOd screwed up the game!!! The fish icon became wine, the whales became coffee beans, the tanks became camels, the fighters and bombers became infantry, half the icons for buildings disappeared, the marines became wagons, the gold was green and a lot more!!! Please try to fix this or tell me how to fix it. Thanks

Isak
Aug 22, 2002, 01:09 PM
Daftpunk89: Easy - reinstall Civ3

The DyP mod overwrites files, so you can not play Regular Civ3 until you have reinstalled the game, unless you've kept a backup of the original files.

Check out KingJoshi's Mod Manager (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24447) for a relatively simple way to handle install and uninstalling of mods.

And - next time maybe read through just a bit of the Readme before installing - or are you just trying to live up to your nick :p

thestonesfan
Aug 22, 2002, 01:33 PM
For the next Civ game, I move for giving Barbarians the ability to become real civilizations. Like Pinocchio became a real boy.

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 01:37 PM
for Civ4, that would be great!

RobO
Aug 22, 2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
The "Marco Polo" unit is an interesting idea.
But you need a road to the colony to make use of it :(

RobO,
Why don't you post the save and hopefully somone will pick it up.

I'd love to complete it myself, but I guess it's more important to get some proper feedback. I'm pretty well ahead by now.
It's based on the 0.85beta used by the test team (that is, if they're doing anything about it - is there anybody out there :confused: ) with the addition that Theocracy is moved from Fundalism till very late in the Tech tree. It will be interesting to see if the Ai switches to Theocracy once they get it.
Whoever plays it - please save several times along the way and send the saves to Isak so we can monitor the AI progress.

daftpunk89
Aug 22, 2002, 01:59 PM
What program do you use to make resources (PCX files) or units?

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 22, 2002, 02:17 PM
ok here are the two civs added at this point. im still working on testing and seeing how the ai uses them so far the look good.

still need more leaders for both races though

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by RobO

But you need a road to the colony to make use of it :(

True, but having a zero pop unit that can colonize might be a good advantage. The problem is getting the AI to handle it properly.

daftpunk89
Aug 22, 2002, 02:34 PM
Hey anyone, can u please tell me what program is used to make new resources???

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 02:35 PM
any art program that can save as pcx.

daftpunk89
Aug 22, 2002, 02:45 PM
which one do u use?

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 02:51 PM
I use both PSP and AdobePhotoshop

daftpunk89
Aug 22, 2002, 03:11 PM
hey Kal-El, do u have ICQ? If so, what's ur ICQ number?

Bamspeedy
Aug 22, 2002, 04:27 PM
I've played two DYP games so far. One at chieftain and the other Warlord. Ive noticed that AI cities appear to grow at half the rate of mine.

This is the cost factor. This is what makes the levels harder/easier. On chieftain and warlord, it takes the AI longer to grow in population and longer to build stuff. On regent everything is equal. Monarch and above, the AI grows faster and builds faster than you. Before 1.29f, the AI would also research slower than you on chieftain-warlord and faster than you on monarch-deity. But with 1.29f, the human is handicapped (harder for you) in research on higher levels, and given bonuses (easier for you) on the lower levels, so the AI supposedly researches about the same on all levels. Cost Factors:

Chieftain - 200% (It takes the AI twice as long to grow, build stuff).
Warlord - 120%
Regent - 100% (Everything is equal)
Monarch - 90%
Emperor - 80%
Deity - 60% (The AI only need 60 shields to match your 100 shields).

Also, starting at Monarch and levels above this, the AI starts getting more free units at the start of the game.
- - - - -- - - - - - - - -

yeah, I think moving the merchant/caravan units until later in the game would be a better idea. It would be good where they are now, if the AI knew how to change production from caravan to wonder, and if they built some other infrastructure before building these. Right now, they will spend 750 shields on building a caravan, and want to use this to rush a 400 shield wonder :rolleyes:. I took them out of the game, and while it is a pity that when the cascading of wonders stops, they have to waste all those shields on something stupid like a settler, that's better than having the AI spend the next 100+ turns building a caravan, only to want to build yet another one after that. An 8-shield city should not be building a 750 shield item!

I doubled the tech rate on the 180 X180 world map and that seems to help slow things alot better, so the AI isn't getting into the middle ages before 0 A.D.

Theocracy: Although it may be nice to have this in the game for historical purposes, the bad part of this, and communism with standard civ3 rules is the pop rushing. The AI does not use pop-rushing effectively. And late in the game, there aren't alot of things to poprush without whipping a massive number of citizens, which leads to massive unhappiness. Whipping governments should only be in the ancient era when you have some cheap stuff to build. I stay in chiefdom until I get democracy, then switch to a much later government that has paid labor. I totally skip any forced labor governments.

Kal-el
Aug 22, 2002, 04:33 PM
daftpunk89,

I do not ICQ, only MSN.

Bamspeedy,

I am from Wisconsin too! Born in Milwaukee and raised in Green Bay. Go Packers!!! :D

Could everybody test the game without Throcracy?

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 22, 2002, 04:47 PM
ok well i added a few more cities and leaders for the phoenicians....

but still looking for mroe cities before i add the incans.

also changed the capital of phoenica again LOL because of new evidence

if anyone has any incan cities or a site that may fgive me mroe info would be appreciated

Dingocat85
Aug 23, 2002, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el

The DyP civs will be:
Abyssinian/Ethiopian
Inca
Polish
Polynesian
Sioux/Dakota
Siamese
Tibetan

Others to follow in later editions:
Mayans
Mali
Dutch
Portuguese


I was just looking @ the Barbarian Civ in the Editor..and I noticed that 'mayan', 'incan', 'polynesian', and 'mongol' are all possible names for Barbarian "cities". If they're not deleted/replaced, sooner of later you're going to be playing as the Incans, staving off an Incan barbarian uprising :lol:

IIRC, the Mongols are a PtW Civ, so their Barbarian-city should also be deleted/replaced.

daftpunk89
Aug 23, 2002, 07:06 AM
Kal-el, what's your MSN address then?

Harrier
Aug 23, 2002, 07:53 AM
The DyP civs will be:
Abyssinian/Ethiopian
Inca
Polish
Polynesian
Sioux/Dakota
Siamese
Tibetan

I think you said in an earlier post that you were looking forward to a Pacific conflict hence the reason for adding Polynesians.

To achieve this, I think you should also add the Aborigines.

As Europe is already crowded I would remove the Polish to be able to add another Pacific civ.

Kal-el
Aug 23, 2002, 10:20 AM
Harrier,

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Aborigines are still in the Stone Age!!! I do not intend to ever add the Aborigines to the mod myself. Which is not to say that somebody can't make an Aborigine Civ and we can place it in the Add-On page of the Website, but for me they don't qualify.

With Siam, Japan, and Polynesia fighting for space things should be more interesting in the South Pacific. And its not so much that I am looking forward to a Pacific conflict (there's an oxy moron) but the challenge of playing as the Polynesians, and attempting to survive the clash of cultures once the outside world makes it over to my corner of the map.

I assume that Siam and Japan will push into the South Pacific since the Continent will be mostly filled by India, Tibet, China (new Starting position will be Nanjing rather than Canton), Mongolia and Korea.

I agree that Europe is very crowded, but Poland fits nicely between Germany and Russia and gives Russia some necessary competition for land. That will be interesting to see those Euros fighting for space. :)

Dingocat,

I am sorry but I don't have a lot of time to chat these days. But feel free to email me.

bshirt
Aug 23, 2002, 10:43 AM
KAL-EL;

Well, I tried to remove Therocracy but my civ.edit file won't come up. Somehow I must have screwed it up. I never used it before though.....weird.

gunning1
Aug 23, 2002, 12:31 PM
Looks great, but I just can't get it to download. Well, when I do download it, it doesn't work.

curswine
Aug 23, 2002, 01:19 PM
Yeah I know how hard it is to play as the polynesians on a world map I am at this moment.

So far the Portuguese, Germans and Swedes bustling for control in europe, the hittites are controlling asia, Mali has conquered africa and the inuits and aztecs north america leaving me with control of indonesia, australia and the pacific islands and maybe madagascar but it is a great game a real challenge

KDan
Aug 23, 2002, 02:01 PM
Kind of a rant but...

England, Deity mode, normal settings on your world map:
AIs trade and expand so fast I find myself soon so outdistanced tech-wise (and of course with the 60 rate cap I can't even try paying for tech and screwing research) that it's pointless to continue the game. I mean, the *****es built the great library before I even got dynasticism... and I was beelining for it!! Now there's some suckage...

But then...
Same mode, but edited the deity settings. Made the AI trade rate 100 so that AIs trade just like humans. Screwed them out of their free unit supports and their massive free starting army, so that basically they start exactly like me and are treated like normal players, and well, you know what? The poor bastards are lagging behind tech-wise, I've colonised spain and part of northern europe and a bit of northern africa and they only have 3 or 4 cities apiece (fair enough, it's europe... I guess that doesn't help... but I just traded maps with the chinese and they only have 3 cities too. Same for the Indians).

So... well, I guess this is just a pointless annoyed rant, but I'm tired of playing against cheats... it can't possibly be that friggin' hard to make an AI that can play civ without cheating all the time. I mean, look at games like warcraft 3... the AI doesn't need to cheat there to kick your ass (and cleanly too)... it is actually muzzled and held down in the single-player campaign to make it more playable - otherwise most people wouldn't make it past the first few missions. Civ ain't a RTS you say? Well, let's have a look at chess then... pretty friggin' complex turn-based game if you ask me, yet they can make AIs which easily hold a candle to very good human players without any cheating.

So I guess this is just one more useless rant at developers of the civ series in general... why have they got it so ingrained in their heads that to make the AI better you gotta give it cheats? It completely spoils the game for me. I'll be glad when they come up with PtW - assuming it is actually practical to arrange games of civ with several human players, for which I have severe doubts about the logistics. Then I'll finally be able to measure myself against some players which don't cheat and have more intelligence, artificial or not, than the AI (Amoeba Intelligence?). Civ1 was the very first game I bought, and I bought every game in the series, including the cpts (both 1 and 2...) but I'm definitely not touching civ4 unless I read in every review that they finally made an AI that can win without cheating.

(/rant... sorry for putting it here... keep up the good work on the mod, at least it kept me playing for a little while longer and I'll be using it with PtW for sure)

Daniel

Kal-el
Aug 23, 2002, 02:31 PM
I know I said the next release wasn't going to be coming out for another month or so, well, things change and since I haven't been getting any good feedback on the Theocracy issue and since we had already sent out v0.85 to the test team, we will be releasing v.0.86 within the next day or two. Version 0.86 will address the Theocracy problem and also the problem of being able to have a larger army in Chiefdom than in Despotism.

The new techs are still a ways off. But this should help increase the AI's ability to put up a fight in the latter stages of the game. You should hopefully see more AI cities and more improvements in those cities. That should in turn lead to a more challenging game.

Isak
Aug 23, 2002, 02:35 PM
[Counter-Rant]

Originally posted by KDan
Kind of a rant but...
You're right - we all get a free monthly rant on CFC, I think ;)
So... well, I guess this is just a pointless annoyed rant, but I'm tired of playing against cheats... it can't possibly be that friggin' hard to make an AI that can play civ without cheating all the time.I disagree - I believe it is not only hard, but completely impossible - the only thing that might make it possible would be Extra-Terrestial-Super-Funky-Monster Computers.I mean, look at games like warcraft 3... the AI doesn't need to cheat there to kick your ass (and cleanly too)... it is actually muzzled and held down in the single-player campaign to make it more playable - otherwise most people wouldn't make it past the first few missions. I haven't tried WC3 yet, but in RTS, in general, as a human being you are limited by the speed with which you can move the mouse around in the interface. If you want to build something, you have to locate the right button, click it, select what you want to build, confirm that you will build it, and then it starts building. Likewise if you want to change the orders of units, you have to locate them, select them, change the order and confirm - lots and lots of clicking. Do you think the AI delays itself in order to "simulate" this searching and clicking? - I don't think so - it carries out all production and changes the units' go-to orders in miliseconds. Personally, I don't se why that is not cheating...
Civ ain't a RTS you say? Well, let's have a look at chess then... pretty friggin' complex turn-based game if you ask me, yet they can make AIs which easily hold a candle to very good human players without any cheating. True -after only some 40 years of research and prototyping, they finally managed to beat one of the best chess players in the world - so since Civ1 was released in 1991, we will only have to wait 30 more years for that super-sharp Civ-AI to come :D
But, Chess is not a good comparison - there are only 64 tiles, and 32 units and no deviations from this rule whatsoever - the scope of Chess is much, much, much smaller than Civ3. If you don't believe me, try this: Calculate, in how many different ways you can place the Units on the Civ3 map.

It can't be done, because you don't know how many map tiles there are and you don't know how many units there will be - it is possible to do so for Chess, though.

And, another thing - the Chess AI calculates many (hundred?) steps ahead in order to determine the best possible move - something that no human being is capable of. Why is that not cheating?

So don't give up on Civ3 just because it is cheating - it cheats in everybody else's game as well, so if you want to measure how well you are doing, you could just check out the Highscore thread or try out the Game Of The Month.

[/Counter Rant]

Ps. And don't worry about the Tech rates -we will eventually make them work just right - and your input is much appreciated :)

gunning1
Aug 23, 2002, 02:40 PM
Hey, Kal-el I downloaded versions .80, and .84. I tried to play, but nothing else was different. And yes I did install them in order. I need some help.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 23, 2002, 02:46 PM
oh for anyone else wnating to use those two sims.

i didnt send the art folders.

theya re jsut renamed art folders.

so easy to do

just copy and rename jaguar warrior to quetzal Warrior change the isp as well

and copy and rename galley to phoenician galley

anyway was thinking about that may confuse someone. though the civs were for kal'el and i doubt the confused him *LOL*

Guardian-Azure
Aug 23, 2002, 03:43 PM
... all I have to say is, if you don't think the AI cheats in any RTS game, then you're quite nieve.

Warcraft, Starcraft, Total Annihilation, Command and Conquer, Dune, all of these considered some of the best RTS's of all time. The AI will cheat every single game. Mainly is that, the AI is given information, and it has a command for that information is given. There is no room for improvization. It's all scripted. Even the most advanced AI we argueable have (In Black and White) is scripted. Just to a very large detail. And with that scripting, it has one very large disadvantage. We think, learn, and can change what we're doing in an instant. While the AI can't see ahead and predict what we will do, we can certainly predict what it can do, because we LEARN what the AI will do in certain situations.

In command and conquer it is common knowledge that the computer can have no power, destroyed ore refineries, and it will still crank out tanks at an abnormal rate.

In Starcraft, if the computer AI is zerg, the second you reach a certain over-all score, the ai will rush you with 8 zerglings. No matter what, but we know that it generally won't rush untill you reach that score, so we use that time to prepare an intricate defense with the use of buildings and a few units. And we will completely destroy that rush. Because we know how to out-think the AI.

But those are all real-time, where we have the movement penalty of clicking the mouse, scrolling the screen, pressing hotkeys, placing buildings, commanding units. Now, take Civ, all those disadvantages against us are removed. It is a Turn-Based Strategy. Once you take that main advantage away from the AI, we now have as much time as we want to think, predict, feint, etc... So how do we give the AI a fighting chance? Extra gold, starting units etc... but even then, there are players on these boards that can absolutly destroy the AI on diety level. I personally can not, I've never been a very good Civ. Player. And never really taken the time to become one, because I don't care. I have fun on monarch level, and thats enough for me.

But if we didn't give the AI any advantage... it would kinda be a dull game wouldn't it? Especially since there isn't any multi-player for civ3 yet... but hey. Just my thoughts... and I would think game creators and very good players would agree with me. In C&C, and SC, the AI is too easy to me. I'll destroy them. And thats on the hardest difficulty, on easy its just funny to watch them play. I often would think my friends 4 year old brother could play better than that.

KDan
Aug 23, 2002, 05:05 PM
Ok, maybe my rant was a bit unfair on some points - fair enough about the click rate aspect of rts... still, I would think that scripting the AI so that it is far more able to deal with various situations - eg the starting build order/exploration method/etc, so that it can start itself up as fast as the best player without getting free offensive units, free defensive units, free settlers, free workers etc... - would be more of a 'work a bit more on this' issue rather than a 'have a genial new idea and write a computing phd thesis on it cause it's that good' kind of idea...

Sure, the specific scripts would not do very well in a mod like this one - but that's why you do things more like Ctp did and allow people to write their own AI scripts...

I don't see anything wrong with thinking many moves in advance - in chess that's what all good players do, though they usually don't think as far as a computer can. But an International Master (or even a Grand Master) will have many different possible scenarios in mind, many moves ahead, even when playing 20 people in simultaneous games while blindfolded (that's why they're so damn good :-P). It wouldn't hurt the civ ai to think 2 moves ahead for once :-) Of course, in civ, moves are not definite - the outcome of a fight is undefined - but probabilities can still be worked out. And when the AI attacks, it should do so with a force that it knows will have a high probability of being strong enough to wipe out the defence. Dropping 3 knights on my railroads when all my cities have tanks in them definitely doesn't qualify, but how many times does that happen?

Kal-el - this game I'm playing, assuming I'll play it longer - has theocracy turned into "Virtual Democracy" which comes with Advanced Warfare, some sort of evil mofo government I decided to add cause I get tired with war weariness crap in the end game, and with worker speeds and all that (so I gave it worker rate 10, no war weariness, minimal corruption, 5 gold per unit support though to balance it out a tiny bit... >:-) ) I also removed the merchant units, so I'll see how it plays out. Atm the AI is lagging behind in tech, but I'm being reasonably generous with my tech donations to the AI fund so that they have half a chance of catching up... I'll have a look later on to see what govs they choose and what sort of stuff they're building, and I'll let you know - assuming I get that far and don't get bored before.

Daniel

Isak
Aug 23, 2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by KDan
Ok, maybe my rant was a bit unfair on some points - fair enough about the click rate aspect of rts... still, I would think that scripting the AI so that it is far more able to deal with various situations - eg the starting build order/exploration method/etc, so that it can start itself up as fast as the best player without getting free offensive units, free defensive units, free settlers, free workers etc... - would be more of a 'work a bit more on this' issue rather than a 'have a genial new idea and write a computing phd thesis on it cause it's that good' kind of idea...Sure, some things could be improved - but for every aspect you want the AI to consider and calculate, more processing time is needed, so you will be waiting longer between turns. Also, computer AI programmers work under the same conditions as the people who write up the Tax laws - every time a loop-hole is closed, two new ones appear :) Sure, the specific scripts would not do very well in a mod like this one - but that's why you do things more like Ctp did and allow people to write their own AI scripts...That would have been brilliant, I can't argue with that. But again, would we really have been able to fare much better?I don't see anything wrong with thinking many moves in advance - in chess that's what all good players do, though they usually don't think as far as a computer can. Pardon, but that is a bit of an understatement - according to the IBM - Deep Blue Website (http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/meet/html/d.3.html) the current version of that super-computer is "capable of calculating 100-200 billions moves within three minutes, which is the time allotted to each player's move in classical chess. " - Now I wonder if Gary Kasparov is even able to calculate a fraction of that, given as much as a week. Dropping 3 knights on my railroads when all my cities have tanks in them definitely doesn't qualify, but how many times does that happen?If you're hogging all the Iron, it doesn't really have much of a choice, does it? ;)

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 23, 2002, 06:02 PM
HELP

Seems i have a small problem with my new civs when they talk to me they will jsut use.
civ#1 instead of any saying.

cant see where i can fix this small problem. doe anyone know?

FINSIHED MY THIRD CIV AND GOT THE RESEARCH FOR MY FOURTH BUT WANT TO FIX THIS PROBLEM BEFORE I ADVANCE

Harrier
Aug 23, 2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el


I have said it before and I will say it again, the Aborigines are still in the Stone Age!!!


I agree with you on this point. I was thinking more of game play than historical fact. But see below.


Originally posted by Kal-el


With Siam, Japan, and Polynesia fighting for space things should be more interesting in the South Pacific.


I'd overlooked the addition of Siam (Thai's). and Polynesia as an effect on the game.

Thinking about my choices, I realized I had based them on previous games I had played on Marla's Map - using
normal rules, not a mod. As China and Rome, in both cases the Pacific and most of South America had been left
untouched by the AI. Even as the Romans I colonized most of the Pacific and South America (Inca's and Mayan's
should stop that). That's the problem with an Earth Map - you know where land is before you find it and after a few
games you know the places the computer ignores.

I've not yet played a full game on your Earth map - so I can not comment yet on the AI ignoring parts of the map.

Morbius
Aug 23, 2002, 06:27 PM
dyp world map, 0.84, the egypt theocracy that im at war with, prefers to rush their cities to total annihilation when my cavs and tanks come close.
they get an additional unit of infantry and the cities are just gone, rushed to death in exchange.

this has to be stopped, i think. its ridiculous -- they lost over half of their cities that way.

Guardian-Azure
Aug 23, 2002, 08:29 PM
Okay Kal-El, your not online, and my email is being buggy. So I'm posting it here.

I've played through my game with being an extremely pacifist, non-major world power, keeping myself as low as I possibly can in anything, and trying to stay on the good side of all the other AI players.

I play on the Monarch Level, huge map, most civs had their own continent, but 2 continents did have 2 civs on it. Which I thought was good, would let me compare this.

I was trying to attempt to see if the AI will not goto theocracy if there wasn't a substantial war threat. So I kept myself on a small island, limited my power, spent the money I would recieve. And I kept in the bottom 3 spots for total score as best as I could.

I was successful in doing my part. And the AI civs that had to compete with land, did so, and stayed in their theocracy gov't. Now, all but one civ who happened to stay in anarchy (I'm guessing a rival civ kept the propaganda going, and then forced all the workers changed to entertainers, then city dropping in size, allowing workers, anarchy, entertainers etc...) But all the other civs still stayed in theocracy.

So that was a bit of a failure at an attempt to see what the AI would choose of the human player didn't pose any threat.

I'm still playing my game where you get theocracy when you get advanced warfare. With the corruption set to problematic.

The AI have been switching gov't a lot more often thats for sure. Some are being forced to switch through war, or lack of luxery etc... quite interesting to see how this will play out further as the only gov't available at the moment is Chiefdom/Monarchy/Republic/Despotism.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 23, 2002, 10:58 PM
ok im gonna add the addition of my newest civ additions

but i ran into a problem with the game.

it seems that as i was going into the jungles and do exploring i started to see silk before i got weaving. then when i got weaving my comp performed a crash. im not sure if this is from this problem. but it happened right after irtraded for weaving with silk allready on the map.

im not sure if it mapped out silk when the comp discovered it then went to do it again and ran into a problem or what. but thats what i got

thier are four civs on this. special units

mayan change copy jaguare warrior into quetzal warrior
phoenician copy galley into phoenician galley
inca copy jaguare warrior into sky warrior
and portuguese coppy caraval into portuguese explorer.

anyway this isnt perfect yet still working on everything
but seems to be working other then the crash mentioned before

RobO
Aug 24, 2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by gunning1
Hey, Kal-el I downloaded versions .80, and .84. I tried to play, but nothing else was different. And yes I did install them in order. I need some help.
This is usually in Isaks ballpark, but I don't know why he isn't picking it up.

There are two standard answers to this one :)

1. Are you installing it in the right place? If you unzip to your Civ3 directory or are using the exe files to install in that directory then you should be fine.

2. Uninstall and reinstall Civ3, then install DyP on top of that. Remember to also uninstall any Civ patches you have installed.

RobO
Aug 24, 2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Morbius
dyp world map, 0.84, the egypt theocracy that im at war with, prefers to rush their cities to total annihilation when my cavs and tanks come close.
they get an additional unit of infantry and the cities are just gone, rushed to death in exchange.

this has to be stopped, i think. its ridiculous -- they lost over half of their cities that way.
We're working on it :D

Dingocat85
Aug 24, 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Kal-el
since I haven't been getting any good feedback on the Theocracy issue...

It usually takes me a day or two just to get to Theocracy, and about 5 days to run the rest of the game..on top of this, I always play just one game at a time, start-finish. So on top of finishing up my old game, it'd usually take me about 1.5 weeks to get a test done w/out Theocracy.

But that's not all..

Being the complete idiot I am, I had not the slightest idea how to mod Civ3. Then I saw this program in the Civ3folder called civ3edit..:rolleyes: With some guesswork, I figured out how to make Theocracy available w/ Advanced Warfare.

If there's more out there like me, either we don't know how to play a game w/out Theocracy, or we haven't finished ouor current game yet.

But what you're doing seems allright..like the Chiefdom tile-penalty debate (when instead of asking people to edit Chiefdom themselves, you released a new patch).., you're making the change yourself, and seeing how it works out :goodjob:

KDan
Aug 24, 2002, 01:34 AM
Pardon, but that is a bit of an understatement - according to the IBM - Deep Blue Website the current version of that super-computer is "capable of calculating 100-200 billions moves within three minutes, which is the time allotted to each player's move in classical chess. " - Now I wonder if Gary Kasparov is even able to calculate a fraction of that, given as much as a week.
The only reason why Deep Blue has to calculate that many moves is because he lacks the very developped heuristics that an experienced chess player has, which is both a good and bad thing. It means it might find a move that no chess player would even begin to consider and discover that it's the optimal move, or it means that it has to go through all the crap, no-future moves as well as the good ones because it doesn't have that sense of heuristics.

If you're hogging all the Iron, it doesn't really have much of a choice, does it?
I wasn't though, that's the thing. And anyway, does cavalry need iron? Cavalry is one damn sight more powerful than knights, even against tanks... though I still dispute the wisdom of dumping it well in view of my entire tank army on a railroad...

Anyway, enough ranting from me... back to that game... :-)

Daniel

bshirt
Aug 24, 2002, 09:01 AM
RobO;

"We're working on it "

Thank goodness.

I play at the Monarch level on huge maps. Usually around twelve civs. Using DYP .84, the game is tighter than a flea's ass. I'll be hanging on for dear life until around the early 1800's which then results in the AI self destructing massively with Therocracy.

I'd love it if you guys simply removed that form of government. Used long term equals suicide for the AI & I sure wouldn't use it for any extended time.

Can't wait for you folks to do your magic for this....:)

Thanks!

Bamspeedy
Aug 24, 2002, 09:02 AM
I am from Wisconsin too! Born in Milwaukee and raised in Green Bay. Go Packers!!!

I'm from the La Crosse area. Packers rule! :cool:

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I did some testing with tech rates and AI to AI trading...

On chieftain, 180x180 world map with 16 civs, I set AI to AI trading at 100 and I doubled the tech rate to 480. A couple civs reached the middle ages around 1000-1100 A.D. Isn't 1000 A.D. when you were hoping the middle ages would start? However, a bunch of civs were far from getting to the middle ages. I think I should have set the AI to AI trading a little higher, to allow a little faster tech speed. Of course, though I'm in the industrial age :p.

But if the middle ages doesn't start until 1000 A.D., wouldn't you have major problems getting to the modern era before 2050 A.D.? I'm not sure, but slower tech rate would give the human and AI more time to build the improvements and actually use the ancient era units. And having time to actually build libraries, temples, forges, etc. might give the AI some more boost for later in the game, but the human should still easily win because he is more efficient with his cities. Expansionist civs are the ones that can really throw off the tech speed if they get alot of goody huts.

Isak
Aug 24, 2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by RobO

This is usually in Isaks ballpark, but I don't know why he isn't picking it up.Sorry Gunning1 - I guess I missed your post somewhere in the excitement of an AI discussion :blush:

If you're still having problems, please just send me an email (isak@privat.dk) and we'll figure out what goes wrong.

Guardian-Azure
Aug 24, 2002, 10:10 AM
generally the midieval ages are represented from the 500 ad. to the 1500's.

Then the modern world from 1500 - XXXX

But anyway, I don't think reaching the middle ages by the 11th century would pose any problem for working your way up the ladder. Usually by then I can have enough cities to transform my civ into the trading empire of the world. Get a specific science city, and put all improvements/wonders I can to boost science growth in that city, and eventually I can get techs every 5-9 turns. Take that with trading techs with other civs and only going for the ones I feel are truly usefull... you could jump into the lead. Ofcourse, I tend to sacrifice most of my military spending on that... units cost money, and I need money to rush improvements, or trade techs with other civs.

RobO
Aug 24, 2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Guardian-Azure
generally the midieval ages are represented from the 500 ad. to the 1500's.

Then the modern world from 1500 - XXXX
In DyP, the dividing years are more like 1000AD and 1800AD.
Kal-el is a lot better at explaining the reason behind this than I am.

In fact, if you look at the original Civ3 you'll find that tht dividing line betweeh the second and third age cannot easily be dated in historical terms. There are techs on both side of the line that conflict with each other if you put them on a timeline.

Guardian-Azure
Aug 24, 2002, 01:40 PM
Yea, I can understand the 1000 thing.

I generally speak in terms of 3 main eras... Ancient-Midieval-Modern...

So I kinda have a larger time thing for it.

But I was really trying to explain why making it to the Space Race if need be wouldn't be too hard by 2050

Exsanguination
Aug 24, 2002, 01:54 PM
Waiver: I've never played DyP and haven't read much of the thread. But I do keep up every now and then just out of curiosity.

First off, great job guys :goodjob:. It's amazing what you guys have done and that you just keep making it better.

But I was just wondering, when are you going to implement the new civs (or have they already been put in and I just didn't notice)? I'm eager to check out how it works out and to try out some new civs.

Also, just curious, did Firaxis even consider putting this mod into PTW? If so, did you give it to them? I know its kinda like the anti-civ3 mod, but still, this is just too big to ignore.

Great job guys keep it up :).

Kal-el
Aug 24, 2002, 04:40 PM
Exsanguination,

We are working out the details of the new civs, and waiting for animated leaderheads to go along with them. Fortunately there are some good leaderhead creators developing on the boards.

Firaxis has v0.83 of the mod, but as we all know that particular rendition has some fatal gameplay issues. Barry tells me they are using it to test the Mod Swapper aspect of PTW. I don't know if they intend on adding it to the PTW package, but I will send them a copy of the next version as soon as we get it put together.

Thanks for the kind words,

Kal-el

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 24, 2002, 05:55 PM
* smacks self in head*

well figured out my crash problem had to do with me not putting leader faces on the portuguese... i swear i did that *SIGH*

of course these leader heads are jsut for wait until i can get some to purposelyt represent the nations is working on stats of abyssians and polynessians.

abyssians are easy. i am gonna go with a queen for them since they have had important ones. and another female ruler wouldnt hurt. polynessians are a bit tougher but working on it

Isak
Aug 24, 2002, 06:05 PM
CW:

About the Polynesian Leader and Leaderhead - you may want to check out this post on the What Civs are missing from Civ3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=448735#post448735) thread

GIDustin
Aug 24, 2002, 06:29 PM
How did you get on Civ3.com's Fansites page? I emailed them, but they havent added my site yet.

Maybe my site doesnt have enough Civ 3 related content . . .

:p

I hope your mod comes with the PTW expansion, but what would be even better is if the version that comes with PTW was a mod FOR PTW, i.e. having all 31 civs included and all the changes that PTW makes.

That, however, is impossible unless they release the game to Kal-El before they release it in stores.


GIDustin

emalherbe
Aug 24, 2002, 07:14 PM
I've been playing Civ3 with DYP now for months. I simply can't imagine the game without it. Good work guys!!! :goodjob:

I probably won't be able to get the expansion pack here in South Africa (I had to let someone import the game for me in the first place) - so I hope that you'll keep on bringing out a DYP for the "classic" version. :p

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 25, 2002, 12:09 AM
yeah isak thanks for that thread intresting. but i think if your gonna go with hawaiian Monarchs

why would we choose a leader that ruled for two years and was the last monarch over The first hawaiian King King Kamehameha?

plus their are older monarchies in the polynesian chain f islands we may want to look into but thats jsut my thoughts on that.

now should have abyssia up tomorrow so will have 5 civs.

good news played a full 6 hours of rt straight with no crashes LOL and got all the special units out and moving so it seems to be working.

still got that weird bug with incan and mayan where they dont talk im not sure if this is because they use the same face? maybe something for me to check on.

anyway. if anyone has a specific race. that hasnt been lsited as being released and i ahvent done. give me a shout. i love doing the research.

Isak
Aug 25, 2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by ChaoticWanderer
why would we choose a leader that ruled for two years and was the last monarch over The first hawaiian King King Kamehameha?Because their will soon be an animated leaderhead for her.:crazyeyes:

Well, I confessed this on the thread, and I can confess It here to - I have absolutely very little knowledge of Polynesia and even less knowledge of their rulers, so I wouldn't be the right person to ask. Still got that weird bug with incan and mayan where they dont talk im not sure if this is because they use the same face? maybe something for me to check on.It could be something relating to the Diplomacy.txt. You can send it to me if you like, and I'll have a look.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 25, 2002, 12:47 AM
it hought it had something to do with the diplomacy text as well but my portuguese civ using the head of wilhelm talked to me just fine and used words while the incans just said things like

#angry

LOL

Isak
Aug 25, 2002, 03:21 AM
Ok CW, check out this Diplomacy Editor (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26034) by our main man Pesoloco :cool:

KDan
Aug 25, 2002, 05:28 AM
Thoughts about the man-o-war.

I know this would not be 100% historically accurate, but I was thinking that the best way to make the man-o-war unit be useful and reflect that period of English history, where it built a very large fleet, would be to make it cheaper than most ships of the time. And so I did, and the result is that I now have a good fleet of a dozen men-o-war, which aren't stronger than the normal man-o-war but cost me less to build so that I could afford the time to build them...

So I was thinking perhaps that could be a good change to make to the mod, to make the man-o-war a worthy unit. It would basically allow you to build a strong fleet in that period, at less cost than other civs, and result, for the english civ, in likely total domination of the seas around that era. At the same time, to make it more worthwhile to build all those men-o-war, I seriously think they should be upgrade-able. This might not make much sense historically but the practical result would be that the english, so long as they actually do build their man-o-war fleet and have enough money, will keep a strong numerous fleet until... well, until it's sacrificed somehow (in reality, during ww2).

Any thoughts?

Update on the running game:
No one is in theocracy (would be hard since it's been replaced by virtual democracy hehehe), and no one is building merchants (another impossibility...), but looking at the savegame they're still far behind in terms of buildings, as before. Now that I've secured top dog position (despite an empire that's rather limited in size, which is nice, for once), as soon as I'm at peace with everyone I'll give them all all my techs, all my maps, and all my communications with everyone and see what happens, as they are, for now, quite behind. Do keep in mind they started without extra units... but still, I was quite generous with my tech until they all started banding together to attack me (at which point I needed tech superiority to beat them into submission...).

Bah, looks like I can't attach the saved game because it's too big.

Daniel

Uziel
Aug 25, 2002, 07:34 AM
hi

i dont know whether it has been posted before but:

you might be aware that the biggest german pc-magazine "gamestar" ( www.gamestar.de ) is making a mod-special where they collect all the good mods. since your mod is the best i've seen so far, why dont you send it to them so they can put it on their cd?? -> cd@gamestar.de
i believe that they'd surely include it

soul assassin

Bamspeedy
Aug 25, 2002, 11:17 AM
The District Courthouse should require a Courthouse.

This is a bug from Firaxis or we aren't comprehending the rules correctly. Any improvement/wonder that uses the '#of building required' flag has this problem. Once 3 courthouses are built a district courthouse can be built in any city, even one without a courthouse. Same problem with the National Library. Once 3 universities are built, any city, with or without a university can build the National Library.

I think we should just note in the civlopedia that you need the minimum number of improvements built in cities then the wonder/improvement can be built in any city, so people aren't confused by this little problem/bug. Example: When you have 3 universities built in your empire you can build the National Library. And just leave out the part that says something like: The city that is building the National Library also must have a university in it.

Isak
Aug 25, 2002, 11:29 AM
Bamspeedy:

:confused:

Are you sure about that? We heard the exact opposite about 30-40 pages ago, and I haven't really checked since then. That's why I stated specifically in the Civilopedia (back when I was the one in charge of that) that improvement xx (e.g. Courthouse) had to be in the city wanting to build improvement yy (District Courthouse).

Bamspeedy
Aug 25, 2002, 12:00 PM
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/courthouse.jpg

Isak
Aug 25, 2002, 12:40 PM
Now, how do I know you didn't manipulate that image :crazyeye:

Sorry, thanks for the tip Bamspeedy :goodjob:

Rory, I guess that means more work for you ;)

Ganja
Aug 25, 2002, 02:20 PM
Let me ask something to clear my mind. I just started a new game, version 0.84, I have chosen to be the indians. I selected Chiefdom level as I haven't played this mod since version 0.77 so I wanted too see just how much better it could get. I established my first Delhi on some grasslands with no resource symbols except for Elephants and Horses with range once my city borders had expanded. The city was expecting growth to a size 3 after a few turns so i decided to build a Shaman to found new cities in further of reaches. The Shaman took a population of 1, so i decided to build another. I has soon established 3 cities with these producing another new shaman in each. Soon into the game I had 6 cities coming on well under Despotism rule. I climbed the Technological tree and soon was able to build missionaries, but when I looked they would cost 2 popluation points to build one. So why would I choose to build a missionary instead of a Shaman, who are cheaper and cost only 1 population point to produce? Whats the resoning of this in the mod?
Thanks for clearing my mind with an answer should I get one :)

KDan
Aug 25, 2002, 02:23 PM
Another idea for a very useful and worthwhile unit:

Scout ship... a very fast, very weak ship with a big radar range (if possible). Better yet if it can be a bit like the protoss detectors in SC and invisible (I saw the option in the editor). The idea is that you should be able to build up your scout ship network and after that you don't need to wander your ships around so much to follow enemy ship movements.

Another good possibility would be a sonar buoy, that you can load onto other ships, that has no defense or attack or movement, but a large range of vision.

All these should be available reasonably early (once radar is discovered) as they are immensely useful...

Here's a better idea even... buoys are invisible but don't detect invisible, and don't move and have large range of normal vision. They have no defense and can be captured by offensive units, just like canoes can.
Scout ships are highly mobile (like 10 mov or something) and able to detect invisible units like the sonar buoys. They have no attack, though, and only 1 defense (basically they should not be able to capture buoys, only to locate them).

Any thoughts anyone?

Daniel

Morbius
Aug 25, 2002, 02:26 PM
its to slow expansion.
certain technological advancements can also cause disadvantages.

Ganja
Aug 25, 2002, 02:50 PM
Here's another question.
From Despotism I went to democracy. I was building barracks under the new Democracy in Bangalore which would be completed in the next 40 turns. Under Despotism they were ready in 13 turns. The only advantage democracy had over despotism was the fact my income increased from +7 per turn to +27 per turn. Reading the civlopedia it said democracy increased production, despotism had a worser effect.

Also I asked a question about the shamans Vs missionaries on the bottom of the last page...dont forget about it now its not visible on this page :)

Isak
Aug 25, 2002, 03:34 PM
Ganja:

Morbius already answered your question, but I guess you didn't notice :)

The AI didn't expand properly with a 2-pop requirement for the first Settler-type unit, so we decided to help it a bit by making an early "cheap" unit which is only available for a limited time - for the human player, this is of course an advantage which you have to make the best of as it will go away once you discover Dynasticism.

About Democracy, the Civilopedia is outdated, as that record was written before we introduced the Chiefdom government, which kind of took the place of Despotism. Now Democracy and Despotism have the same worker rates, but Democracy has lower corruption and a trade bonus. It also uses Paid Labor rather than Forced Labor for rushing improvements. Note that we are talking about ancient democracy here, not the modern one.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 25, 2002, 03:43 PM
Ok first Isak Thanks for the link is downloading as we speak

second on the view of scout ships.

i have made two better siling ships int he form of civ units
phoenicians get a galley that can travel seas

and portuguese get a ship like magellans caravals basicaly a fast moving caraval that can go anywhere. but doesnt carry alot.

now ran into a small problem with the abyssinians its not lack of info... its too much info

so it hought i would ask you guys what i should include.

first and fremost the leader.

i thought at first queen yodit which was important in form f forming the mroe modern abyssian nation

then there was king Ezana which was the msot important ruler as to due with size

now abyssinia has three names ancient was aksum middle to modern was abbysinia present is ethiopia

now Aksum was the msot powerful controaling ethiopia somalia djibiti and parts of yeman across the red sea. i would make them religious and commercial.

religious as to being the constent importaence of the bible and christianity int heir culture *kings of abbysinian beclared themself dirrect decendents of the queen of sheba*

and commercial because the controal all traffic throught he red sea to india for a long time

now though my questions are.

what ruler? queen yodit or king ezana
and what name. aksum abbysinian or ethiopian

and what captial? ancient ok aksum? middle ages had many or modern of addis ababa

and cities? i am thinking of listing them oldest to modern. but should i jsut ist modern? or lsit the ancient as well.

and also when to start the coutry? most powerful in ancient times but also important in middle ages.

well your thoughts on this would be helpful since this is for you *LOL*

will wait for imput before i implement it

Ganja
Aug 25, 2002, 03:52 PM
Moribus & Isak - thanks for clearing that up, I have sometime on my hands as of now :) so I'll keep playing the mod. I wasnt sure what Moribus had meant with his two line reply, I didnt know it was as an answer to my question, apologies.

s2mo4
Aug 25, 2002, 05:22 PM
I've been playing through a nice .84 game as the Egyptians and have reached around 1750 A.D. I will post some notes I've taken along the way regarding game play, but this one got me to chuckle a bit. (Now maybe this is related to the Theocracy bug, but I haven't been following the thread here closely.)

A few turns ago I get the message "The rampaging Germans have destroyed the Germans," or something like that. Maybe it was the late hour, but I had this wonderful vision...

"Herr General Rommel, you must proceed to attack the Babylonians."

"Ja, Herr Bismark, Vee shall take no prisoners."

"First infantry line, five paces forward."
"Second infantry line, two paces forward/"
"First infantry line, about face."
"Fire!"

Anyway, I'm not sure if this type of thing has been reported yet. Maybe it was only funny if you were there.

RobO
Aug 25, 2002, 10:56 PM
LOL, s2m04

Yes, I've seen that happen also. I think it's because the AI decides that it's most efficient option is to disband it's only city while building a worker unit :rolleyes:
Thus, it ends up destroying itself. Unhappiness is a possible cause too, caused by hurrying a build, as the center tile only produces 2 food in chiefdom.

In the next version you won't be able to hurry builds in chiefdom.

s2mo4
Aug 25, 2002, 11:36 PM
No, the real funny thing about this was that Germany was in the number 3 slot in a 14 civ game at around 1700 when the AI decided that implosion was necessary.

When I have a chance, I will go back to the save games and see what was going on in the Germany cities. I probably will find an excessive construction of Beer Halls and the small wonder of Sauerkraut.

RobO
Aug 25, 2002, 11:55 PM
s2m04, please send that save game to Isak. He'd love to examine it and we need every bit of help in figuring out how to placate the AI.

Bamspeedy
Aug 26, 2002, 01:43 AM
Thus, it ends up destroying itself. Unhappiness is a possible cause too, caused by hurrying a build, as the center tile only produces 2 food in chiefdom.

This is also a problem trying to KEEP a city that you captured. The 1 citizen is unhappy so he becomes an entertainer. Next turn, he starves to death and the city vanishes into thin air! :rolleyes:

Have you guys had any second thoughts on the colors to choose for each civ? I'm playing the 180X180 map and Greece, Rome, and Germany are really difficult to differentiate. They all start real close together and the sky blue, light grey, dark grey all are pretty close in color I can't tell where any borders start/end unless I take a real close look.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 26, 2002, 03:31 AM
ok found out something....

ai has no idea what the do with sea going special units.

in last long game the phoenicians. had many port towns.

yet they ahd produced none of their special galleys

i went to trade area since i ahd extra timber but timber trade didnt come up.

so im sure they had timber.

they were crushed at the end of a land i think sending sea units would have helped. maybe it was jsut this time willt ry and see what else happens. but its jsut weird they wouldnt send ships to sea when they needed more land

KDan
Aug 26, 2002, 03:44 AM
Chaotic Wanderer... that's actually something I've noticed with sea units in general... and I'm not really sure it's linked to DyP, either... someone do a normal game on archipelago to check maybe?

It's been a while since I've seen the AI build any number of naval units at all... Occasionally I see a trireme or a canoe or something stupid and backwards like that. Yet I distinctly remember games, a long time ago (on a different patch, without DyP) where I was actually impressed and annoyed with the fact that the AI had a big lead on the sea, and kept on bombing my shores with 20+ ships that took ages and made lots of annoying noise (and were woefully ineffective at destroying my improvements, too). So what happened to all those navies???

About the Abyssinians:

I reckon you keep them called "Abyssinians", because that is the name everyone will remember and it is more of a "tribe" than the "Ethiopians". No one's heard of Aksum, so you should make that their capital city - spread some culture around :-) Start with the most ancient city names you find, then progressively, as you move through the list, go towards more recent city names - but don't repeat a city (eg if you have Aksum don't have Adis Abeba).

Good luck with it all, keep up the good work, I want some new civs to kill >:-)

Daniel

RobO
Aug 26, 2002, 03:45 AM
ChaoticWanderer, the AI in Civ3 is not very good at using sea units :(

You might try using the editor to tick the "Naval unit" box in the build preference list for the Phoenicians (on the Civilizations page IIRC). Who knows, it might just help a little.

Morbius
Aug 26, 2002, 06:22 AM
im only playing with one conected land mass, cause civs that are on other continents are irrelevant. they are too dumb to come over and attack me.
but i remeber that it had once worked (i think it was the standard civ3).
they did come over and they were landing several units per turn (i was at war with about 5 civs on another continent).
civ3 is somehow capable of using naval units. warships and transports, i think.
but i cant offer a solution, no idea how. sorry.

edit:

as an afterthought, i think i can even remember big naval battles with civ3. im not entirely sure, but like 95% that it was civ3.
dozens of ships on my side, and even more on the AIs side ...
destroyers, battleships etc.

FaIaChad
Aug 26, 2002, 06:47 AM
Just wondering, dos the DYP mod make it so your invisible units are actually invisible. Becuase I had a few units that I mad invisible and I would run around cuasing havic everywhere,and only everyonce and a while they would get attacked.


It could just be that they were to conserend ith the 2 nations I got to go to war with them on there continent.I just dropped off a few of my new spec ops I built. I made Spe Ops for every single nation as a UU. Well 8 nations.

KDan
Aug 26, 2002, 07:38 AM
Morbius: I remember struggling to get my navy going too... I was building destroyers but the AI had so many ships (of an earlier, wooden hull type, but still strong enough) that I couldn't leave my destroyer out of my town or it would get wiped out (even if it took a couple of AI ships with it). Was a tough job to get rid of those AI ships...

Haven't seen that for a while, though.

Daniel

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 26, 2002, 07:46 AM
this post is a mistake

sorry

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 26, 2002, 07:50 AM
Ok i have finished 5 civs for the game i have the art files the diplomacy file fix. and the civ link zipped but its too big to post here *SIGH* anyone have any ideas?

not sure it works perfectly yet but this is for this games leaders testers mostly. i may have to e-mail to whoever through yahoo i think it will let me on that file size not sure though.

well i can try if someone would send me their e-mail adress to whoever gets this

likes the abbyssinian special unit just wish i had a better graphic for it *SIGH*

and it is a true unit of theirs found it in a large article it was intresting ok my brain is dry so ill be back later.

Kal-el
Aug 26, 2002, 08:40 AM
I think that the problem may be that the Age of Sail navies all require, IIRC, 3 resources to build, and the AI doesn't know to collect those resources. I am betting that is what is causing the problem.

We shall see.

dos
Aug 26, 2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by KDan
Morbius: I remember struggling to get my navy going too... I was building destroyers but the AI had so many ships (of an earlier, wooden hull type, but still strong enough) that I couldn't leave my destroyer out of my town or it would get wiped out (even if it took a couple of AI ships with it). Was a tough job to get rid of those AI ships...

Haven't seen that for a while, though.

Daniel

I'm playing v0.83, huge map, islands. There are three large civs, Myself, the Persians and the babylonians. I'm spread accross various island chains while they ocupy the the two largest islands.

Persia has about 95 battleships, and they all seem to move in unison. Babylon has one canoe. Were all equally developed in science and have about the same number of cities. Very Strange.
(Yes, they are all Theocracys :nuke: )

I have however seen that not all nations develope equally. The Japanese started on a small island (7 citys) but never spread to two large islands very close by, while the romans rapidly spread over their 6 island chain. Once Caravels could travers the oceans only Persia and America spread over any other islands while Japan and Babylon stayed at home.

The only constant was that Persia had money, while Babylon always seemed broke. Persia had about 150000 gold pieces, 180
Mobile Infantry and that 95 ship fleet. Babylon no money, almost no roads or such and 75 grunts,75 infantry. All civs are not created equal.

To talk about another topic, are their any plans to flesh out the modern era? The tech advances and units seem a bit sparce compared to previous eras. The mobile infantry(MI) is a very cool unit but it is a bit unbalanced compared with previous units.

Units that need upgrading I think are:

Radar artilliry 0(18),0,3 range 3, rof 1, air defence:
The bombard value is the same as mobile, and with only one shot its not worth your while to drag them along. How about another mech unit? Mech artilliry 0(30),0,4, range 4, rof 3, cant cross mountains and jungle except over roads, no air defence.

Also

Battleship has little health compared to MI, a larger cousin might be an option. 30(45),20,8; rof 1; carrier ability?;

Helicopter (is very cool) but its 6 movement makes it slow compared to the 8 MI can achive over land. How about a Dropship (from starship troopers fame) Same basic stats except maybe can carry 3 units and move 6 (all as if roads). Maybe a cross between the gunship and the helicopter?

In the same vein a larger Airplane unit would also be usefull. Only move 4 but can carry say 8 units. Itle save a lot of time in moveing your armies in.

Also need larger bomber as Strategic bomber cant really damage MI.

Making these units very expensive and not allowing you to upgrade to them could also make for more military fun. The current ability to upgrade grunts to MI means you can go from 150 pretty useless defensive units to 150 Army from HELLL in one round.

Cheaper and more powerfull version of Penguin missile could also give more combat options.

A more powerfull secret agent would be nice.
Hacker Team 12(18),6,6 (move as road) abilty to paradrop?

I also love the idea of sonar mines. How about giving them the ability to paradrop, but no movement? They should not then be captured but should rather be destoyed. You can drop in a mine
into the ocean or land but not move it? (Dont know if naval units can paradrop)

Lastly, the APC unit cant be loaded on an Airplane, meaning I leave it behind every time. The humvee however can. Whats the rationale?

Richard

p.s I launched a blitzkrieg against Babylon with my MI army and wiped out their civilization in three rounds. My airplanes flew in every unit from all my citys but victory was achieved. Nothing really killed my units, except for a 1 to 1 kill ration when my MI attacked a city with a Mechanized infantry or MI unit defending.
(MI attack 30 = 20 defence + city bonus). I rolled in about 40 tanks and 20 radar artilliry, but the pace of attack was so fast that I parked the artilliry and used the tanks to just hold the citys.

I like the offensive game much more, but using more units will make it even more fun I think.

Edit Yes, Is suffer from an everything afliction, as in Build Everything, Research Everything, Destroy Everything. My Blitzkrieg against the Babylonians suceeded, but I lost in the next turn because Persias culture was now so much more then mine and and Babylon wasn't keeping them from a culture victory anymore. :lol:

KDan
Aug 26, 2002, 01:36 PM
God, I've never even gotten all the way to that last MI unit... always quit (after asserting there was not a challenger left anywhere in sight) before I got to the end of the tech tree...

Daniel

Morbius
Aug 26, 2002, 04:47 PM
same here, ive been sort of constantly playing since ... 0.47 or earlier. 0.3? dunno ... but ive never ever had or seen the mobile infantry.
all games have been won or decided (sometimes lost) before.
but thats fine. you dont always have to discover every tech, it would be boring otherwise, wouldnt it? :)

Isak
Aug 26, 2002, 05:03 PM
I don't think I ever got beyond the industrial age in regular Civ3 myself. :)

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 26, 2002, 08:14 PM
ok willt ry this one last time

this is only the scenario and diplomacy files


un zip stick the civ file in sceanrios and stick the new diplomacy file in text

then copy and rename the following files

art and INI Jaguar warrior = Quatzel warrior
art and INI Jaguar warrior = Sky warrior
art and INI galley = Phoenician Galley
art and ini = caraval = portugese explorer
art and ini spearman = javalineer

ok i have a file with these renamed already but its too big to post here so unless anyone knows somewhere else i can post it or where i can send it this is the best i can do

bernskov
Aug 26, 2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by GIDustin
How did you get on Civ3.com's Fansites page? I emailed them, but they havent added my site yet.

Maybe my site doesnt have enough Civ 3 related content . . .

:p
GIDustin

I did...
It took me several attemps and some begging :-)

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 27, 2002, 10:17 AM
ok a quick update on my last post

dont change spearman to javalineer change it to javelineer

sorry

Kal-el
Aug 27, 2002, 11:04 AM
ChaoticWanderer,

Please email me so we can talk about your suggestions for additional civs.

Just click the link above to send an email through the forums, thanks.

canabliss
Aug 28, 2002, 08:14 AM
hello all
im a new poster here at cfc and just found this mod, DAMN, this is what i was hoping to get when i bought the game.my compliments to the creator(s) on a great mod.:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Tsang
Aug 28, 2002, 11:00 AM
Kal-el,

The DYP mod is great! Thanks for all the hard work. I have just played to the 2nd age, but it really adds a lot of detail and content to the game. I like the extra units a lot too so far.

It really breathed new life into Civ3 for me. It includes a lot of the things I liked about CTP.

The barbarian hordes are a neat and new challenge. These guys have been causing me endless woes.  The seem to be reactive too. (they got mad and killed my worker when I built a road next to ther homes.)

Nice job with all the resources. They add a lot of spice (unintentional pun).

A few questions (perhaps anyone can answer):

1) I am playing on your website’s earth map (which I like a lot too)

Playing as the Americans (I love being an isolationist) my civ has had mostly negative income, with a very modest number of units / structures until I switched to monarchy. Is that intended, or just a product of the map? (I liked the challenge of having to struggle for every gold, and gold really limiting the number of units I could have.)


2) The 2nd government type that can be researched (forgot what it is called… It is the symbol of the fist)… Is it any better than the default type? Some of the fields are blank in its description. The only difference I see is the max slider setting of 60 (vs 50?) Any other differences?

3) Any way to destroy / terraform the native villages?



On a funny note, I think I just built a road through one of the native villages…

“Ok move those mud huts people… an imperial road must be built through here… you will be compensated with 1 dead pig each and some tobacco.”

KDan
Aug 28, 2002, 11:34 AM
Tsang:

1 and 2) All this govt stuff is probably going to change in 0.84, but the reason why it was hard for you to break even is probably because you built a fair amount of high-maintenance buildings such as libraries while you were in Chiefdom, which has free army support (Kal-el is thinking of changing that I believe). Despotism is not meant to support a big army, so you get shafted when you switch to that, because you had a big army and a lot of buildings but probably few roads because of having had to wait to get the Wheel before building them.

Anyway, I think that's a good thing... it means you have to watch your budget. If you don't need a barracks, don't build it. If you don't absolutely need that library, stay away from it.

Despotism is, however, better than Chiefdom because it does not have a tile penalty. Tile penalty means that squares which would normally produce more than 3 of a resource produce one less - ie a 4-food square would produce only 3. Given the 3-food-per-pop requirement in DyP, this means that under chiefdom many of your cities cannot move past size 2. Before Dynasticism, you can still build settlers with them cause they only cost 1 pop, but after dynasticism they cost 2 pops so you need to switch to despotism to be able to grow beyond 2 and build settlers in most of your cities.

3) No, they're strategic resources, necessary to build slave markets and multi-cultural centres.

Daniel

Morbius
Aug 28, 2002, 01:27 PM
i hope nobody's sick enough to build slave markets ...
there are the huts and the strategic resource native villages. big difference.

the first government type is rather ineffective, you should change to despotism as soon as you can afford it.
the exact differences will probably be in the next update (in the civilopedia) or have a look in the editor.

Kal-el
Aug 28, 2002, 01:32 PM
Morbius,

I agree that slavery is an awful thing, but it played a major role in almost every culture for most of history. I am hoping that PtW will allow us to make improvements obsolete.

sealman
Aug 28, 2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
Morbius,

I agree that slavery is an awful thing, but it played a major role in almost every culture for most of history. I am hoping that PtW will allow us to make improvements obsolete.

should not be too hard for Firaxis to make this possible. After all, it is avialable with wonders.

Kal-el
Aug 28, 2002, 04:45 PM
I have been told it is on their wish list of things they hope to include. I guess we just have to wait and see. Keep your fingers crossed.

Isak
Aug 28, 2002, 05:16 PM
But never mind that, here comes the DyP patch to version 0.86.

It is as always available at the DyP Website (http://civ3.bernskov.com) hosted by Bernskov - and soon I guess it will be on GIDustins server too.

So annihilate the last few civs in the game you are currently playing and get the patch. :D

Here's the Changelog:

Double Your Pleasure
by Kal-el
Change Log
08/29/02

Note - the Civilopedia entries are now nearing completion - you can start trusting most of the entries now. Some are still blank though, and should of course not be trusted ;-)
Also we are currently working on balancing the Money and Tech issues - they are probably still not perfect, but we want them to be, so your input is much appreciated. Either email us or go to the discussion at CivFanatics.com.
-------------------------------------
v.0.8.6
-------------------------------------
Added: New artwork for SpecOps unit (using Balou's Modern Infantry)
Edit: Theocracy now has Rampant Corruption and No Tile Penalty.
Edit: Chiefdom: Free Units set to 3 for each civ plus 2/2/2 for town/city/metropolis
Edit: Despotism: Free Units set to 2 for each civ plus 2/3/3 for town/city/metropolis
Edit: Production cannot be hurried under Chiefdom
Edit: Communism: Rush-building now costs gold instead of population.
Edit: Most AI governor settings changed again to make the AI build more improvements.
Edit: Tech rates for all map-sizes increased by 20%
Edit: Caravan and Merchant have changed names, so Caravan is available at start for Commercial civs and Merchangt is available with Guilds.
Edit: Caravan (the commercial TSU) now has 2 movement, cost 20, can build colony and cannot hurry wonders. It does not upgrade, and is made obsolete when Merchant becomes available.
Edit: Saltpeter is no longer required to build Brig, Corvette, Frigate, Man-O-War and Privateer
Edit: Steam Frigate no longer requires Timber
Edit: All Artillery units had their bombardment values increased.
Edit: Most naval units (save those that sink in Sea and the Longboat, Brig and Caravel) had movement decreased but now treat all terrain as roads.
Edit: Naval units had their bombardment values increased (rather dramatically)
Edit: Air units had bombardment values increased (also rather dramatically)
Edit: Grunt unit is now ADM 12/12/2 (was: 14/10/2)
Edit: Mobile Infantry ADM is now 30/18/5
Edit: Elephant rider is now ADM 4/4/2, and cost increased to 60 shields.
Edit: Dragoon ADM is now 9/3/3 (was: 10/3/3)
Edit: Cossack ADM is now 9/4/3 (was: 10/4/3)
Edit: Cavalry ADM is now 11/3/3 (was: 12/3/3)
Edit: Tank ADM is now 14/12/2 (was: 12/12/2)
Edit: Armor ADM is now 22/14/3 (was: 22/12/3)
Edit: Panzer ADM is now 22/14/4 (was: 22/12/4)
Edit: Humvee ADM is now 14/14/5 (was: 14/14/4)
Edit: APC ADM is now 16/16/5 (was: 16/16/4)
Edit: Mech Infantry ADM now 14/22/5 (was: 14/20/4)
Fixed: Greece is now allowed to build Pikemen.
Edit: Brig, Corvette, Trireme can no longer carry units.
Edit: Steam Frigate now carries 2 units (was: 1)
Edit: Sea now costs 2 movement points
Edit: Ocean now costs 3 movement points

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 28, 2002, 10:50 PM
Cool upoaded the change i changed my civs over. to work on the new sims and kind of tweeked the naval SPECIAL UNITS

im gonna down laod the scenario file since all the rest is the same.

Kal'el i sent you an e-mail hope it sent. actually sent to because not sure if the other sent.

also if you want to conntact me on msn its razmlj@hotmail.com


hey i accidently put the wrong file on here so im changing it over

Morbius
Aug 29, 2002, 05:18 AM
looks great. :)
just one question, why do a lot of units upgrade to units that cannot be built by that particular civilisation?
like legionnairy to bushi to longswordman (i think). why not directly to longswordman ??
just curious.

Danners
Aug 29, 2002, 06:51 AM
Wow, i am very impressed. This is my first post, although i have been a long time viewer (and downloader, actually).

Just one question, is there a World Map available for this mod instead of a random map?*

Great work though. This'll keep me up all night, again..

* hold on, clearly i'm not very clever. I found it.

thestonesfan
Aug 29, 2002, 06:57 AM
Morbius - On the upgrading thing, I believe that's how it's set up originally. I don't know why though.

pesoloco
Aug 29, 2002, 07:23 AM
I posted a new editor : Civ III Great Books Editor in the Utilities section. (see link in my signature)

This editor allows you to change the message that pops up that rates the top 8 civs.

I used it to add a bunch of historians.
Since this mod is "double your pleasure" you may want to double the historians/authors too :)

I added to mine:
Josephus
Shakespeare
Aristotle
Plato
Henry Thoreau
Homer
Virgil

Tsang
Aug 29, 2002, 08:27 AM
Kdan,

Thanks.

This was my approximate set-up with chiefdom government.

2 cites, each with a granary. 2 rangers, 2 warriors, and one serf (total) I was at 50% research (or whatever the max allowable value is).

I was loosing a gold or two a turn (my cities were optimized for maximum income.) I got around it by building things like barracks then selling them immediately.

The deficit continued until I had about 4 or five cities and did not get dramatically better until I switched to Monarchy (I did not try switching to despotism)

Arguably, I could have turned down my research, but this was not necessary in non-modded games.

Like I said, I liked the economic struggle. If a wandering tribe set down roots, and some how had a money based governmental budget, they would have a lot of problems too.

I just wanted to mention it. I think I just have to lower the research spending. Won’t be an issue at all with the increase in research rates with .86

Ganja
Aug 29, 2002, 10:08 AM
Can someone clarify these questions for me ?

1. I just installed version 0.86 and had a look around the civ3mod.bic and noticed all the civ's dislike chiefdom as their shunned government setting. Is this intentional ?

2. Would changing them affect the game in some strange way?

3. What shunned government would each civ have ? (In your opinion of course). Eg : America with it's hate of communism.

Thanks for any help :)

Kal-el
Aug 29, 2002, 10:20 AM
The reason for that was to try and make sure the AI got out of Chiefdom as soon as possible. According to Soren this actually has little effect on the AI, and is just an "all things being equal" sort of thing. But I figured a little extra push to get out of chiefdom couldn't hurt.

I would be interested to hear the results of your experiment.

Kal-el
Aug 29, 2002, 10:52 AM
Tsang,

Welcome to the thread! Glad you like the mod. The difference between Chiefdom and Despotism has been increased with the release of v.0.86.

Just a reminder, if you haven't already, rate the thread, please give it a five!! :D This goes for all of you! :D:D

And another request:
If you haven't already, please go to the which civs to be added (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30380)
thread and vote for the DyP Elite 7 civs.
Abyssinia
Inca
Polynesia
Poland
Siam
Sioux
Tibet

Sween32 is going to be looking at the results of this poll to help him determine which leaderheads he is going to make next. If you've seen his work you can see why I am interested in having him do the leaderheads for this mod.

We will be adding in more civs after these initial seven, so if your favorite civ isn't on the above list don't worry. We will get to it.

Thanks for your help,

Kal-el

Isak
Aug 29, 2002, 12:11 PM
The v.0.86 reference sheet (in Microsoft Excel format) has been uploaded to the DyP Site and so has an updated version of RobO's Annotated Build List Add-on.

Sorry about the delay.

And while you're there, notice the nice little touch Bernskov added to the Images in the top-right corner - if you don't get it, just keep clicking on the links - :cool:

Pesoloco - You just keep coming up with nifty utilities. Keep it up :goodjob: (but don't forget to do graphics too :D )

Danners
Aug 29, 2002, 02:52 PM
Few little problems...

1) the city view screen seems all messed up. The pictures don't represent the actual improvements. Like.. i built a Marketplace and it had a pic of the Great Wall, other such things.. the Shrine has a pic of the Pentagon.

2) I achieved a cultural victory and there was a load error. Pediaicons.txt missing line "Love_race_Romans", no idea why. I don't know how to fix it.

Anyone else have these difficulties, and/or know how to fix it?

Micaelis Rex
Aug 29, 2002, 03:57 PM
There is no way to "mod" the way that the city view looks. Only Firaxis could make that possible.

I don't play with culture (way too easy to win), so I can't help you on that one.

GIDustin
Aug 29, 2002, 04:10 PM
This thread is too big. Anyone who just signs up at CFC will not want to read all 87 pages. :) Perhaps start a new thread where the first post summarizes this whole thread? I mave been busy and havent been able to keep up with the progress of this mod, and many pages have built up since then. I want to try it out when it is completely done (if it gets to that stage).

GIDustin

Kal-el: Who was making those buildings (most "stolen" from Sim City)? I need some buildings and their aerial view for my MTG mod and I know that the person made some for you too.

Isak
Aug 29, 2002, 04:24 PM
GIDustin: Yeah, the thread is huge - The plan currently is that once we have version 1.00 ready, we will ask Big T if we can open a new thread and sort of wipe the slate clean.
Actually there is already one more thread, in the General Creation forum called Double Your Pleasure (Mod Under Construction) or something like that.... :rolleyes:

I think the person you are looking for is Nightstorm who did a lot of the graphics back in april and may - he hasn't really been around lately, as he is busy with other-worldly affairs, apparently :cry:

Danners: I'll take a look at the cultural victory bug - I really thought I had that under control, as that part of the mod has not been modified consciously, but I guess I messed up somewhere - sorry :blush:

Kal-el
Aug 29, 2002, 04:25 PM
GIDustin,

NightStorm was the one doing those building views.

I agree this thread is getting a bit cumbersome.
(did he say getting cumbersome, the thing is 87 pages long, I'd say it is cumbersome!)
<oh, boy now he's talking to himself, must be too many sleepless nights thinking of ways to improve on the mod>

(get your sleep on your own time, can't you see we're busy here)
{you're just upset because Siam is losing out to the Mayans and the Mali in the poll}
[So what if I am]
<I sure wish people would go vote for Siam, can't wait to see Yul Brynner in the Diplomacy Screen>

It may be a good idea to start a new thread. I was hoping to hold off until we get to version 1.0 though. Aren't you curious to see how long this thing can get? [I know I am :)]

[b]edit:too much time talking to myself, Isak beat me to the answer. :)

Isak
Aug 29, 2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
edit:too much time talking to myself, Isak beat me to the answer. :) LOL

But I sure wasn't as funny :cool:

Ok, I don't really think we should abandon this thread until we reach post #2000 - I'm sure CFC will throw a party in our honor once we reach that magic number :D

....BYOB style party, of course. ;)

And one on-topic thing: _Siam Rules_ :goodjob: Go Siam.

Ok, so it wasn't entirely on topic, but at least it was more on topic than the first part of my post.... gee, I wonder how this thread ever grew to this size :rolleyes:

bshirt
Aug 29, 2002, 04:53 PM
Isak!

WooHOO!

So, with .86 you took the tile penalty out of Therocracy? That just might fix the problem. At the very least, it certainly will improve the AI situation dramatically.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Kal-el
Aug 29, 2002, 04:57 PM
That was the plan, hopefully it will work. Soren figured that was what was causing the problem, so I figure he would probably know. :) Thanks to those of you who pointed out the Theocracy issue. Let me know if the AI is still floundering.

Isak
Aug 29, 2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Danners
2) I achieved a cultural victory and there was a load error. Pediaicons.txt missing line "Love_race_Romans", no idea why. I don't know how to fix it.

Anyone else have these difficulties, and/or know how to fix it? Looks like, for once it wasn't something I did - this error is in the patch 1.29f pediaicons.txt apparently - I sent an email to MikeB in case he wasn't aware of the problem. The bug will still be fixed in the next version of PtW - for now, you can fix it by opening the Pediaicons.txt and finding the entry that says:

# Small loved Icons
#LOVED_RACE_ROMANS (Cultural Victory Winner)
art\leaderheads\CE_CULTB.pcx

and edit it so it looks like this:

# Small loved Icons (Cultural Victory Winner)
#LOVED_RACE_ROMANS
art\leaderheads\CE_CULTB.pcx

notice that I only moved the label :)

Bshirt - yes, OFL decided that of course, and RobO argued the pro's and cons - but I did the actual unchecking of the box in the editor - thanks for noticing, it's appreciated :D

Kal-el
Aug 29, 2002, 05:16 PM
What a great team we have! :D

I can't wait to hear what you all think of the new version of the mod. We are hoping that this is as close to complete as it gets without adding in all the new techs.

GIDustin
Aug 29, 2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Kal-el
What a great team we have! :D

I can't wait to hear what you all think of the new version of the mod. We are hoping that this is as close to complete as it gets without adding in all the new techs.

Your adding MORE techs? You gotta be kidding.

GIDustin

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 30, 2002, 12:07 AM
had a crash during the middle ages i was so far ahead of everyone it wasnt even funny i had talked to all the races more then once and it worked fine then i got a message saying one of them i have talked to before wnated to speak with me and it crashed.

the leader heads are fine and i have talked to them before so i dont know what happened

Danners
Aug 30, 2002, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by Isak
Looks like, for once it wasn't something I did - this error is in the patch 1.29f pediaicons.txt apparently - I sent an email to MikeB in case he wasn't aware of the problem. The bug will still be fixed in the next version of PtW - for now, you can fix it by opening the Pediaicons.txt and finding the entry that says:

# Small loved Icons
#LOVED_RACE_ROMANS (Cultural Victory Winner)
art\leaderheads\CE_CULTB.pcx

and edit it so it looks like this:

# Small loved Icons (Cultural Victory Winner)
#LOVED_RACE_ROMANS
art\leaderheads\CE_CULTB.pcx

notice that I only moved the label :)

Good man, thanks a lot!

it did seem easy to win with Cultural Victory, first time i have done it though.. i would much preferred to keep on going though.

sealman
Aug 30, 2002, 09:00 AM
Maybe when you guys get version 1.0 finished, you can talk TF into giving you your own sub-forum in the C&C forum. It seems that this is the best mod out there (my opinion of course) and seems to be the one that gets the most updates.

Keep up the work and add in the Poles so that I do not have to merge 2 mods (I voted and will accept your final determiniation since you are the guys doing the work)
:)

Kal-el
Aug 30, 2002, 05:18 PM
ChaoticWanderer,

The crash you are refering to, is that in relation to your own version of the mod, or the one that the DyP team has released?

canabliss
Aug 30, 2002, 05:41 PM
hey guys
im playing 0.86 and it runs smooth for me, no crashes or oddities that i can find but i do have one suggestion for you.

i noticed while playing that marines upgrade to grunts. the problem with this is that once you get to grunts, you end up having no units that can attack from the sea untill you get to special ops. i think it would make more sense if marines upgraded to special ops. i was sad to find out the last island city of my enemy was safe from me because i had already made it to grunts in the tech tree and couldnt attack from the sea untill i got special ops.

other than that. the mod is awesome! keep up the great work

bshirt
Aug 30, 2002, 06:17 PM
.86 is running as smooth.....I'm in the 1700's and the AI is mostly into Theocracy and they're "not" self destructing.

YES!

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 30, 2002, 06:47 PM
my bug is a graphics bug but i dont understand what is causing it. since my graphics are copied of other races and are exact of the races i ahve replaid a few times and when it comes up it shows the leader face but its all messed up

Morbius
Aug 31, 2002, 04:48 AM
i think i might have found a tech tree bug.

it says i need 'radio' in order to discover 'civil liberties' (but i dont need advanced flight).

canabliss
Aug 31, 2002, 08:48 AM
in the civlopedia it says you need atomic testing to be able to build the manhatten pro., but once i built the apollo pro. i was able to build manhatten

also gunships dont seem to have the stack movment command working for them, no idea why

KDan
Aug 31, 2002, 09:04 AM
Just thought of something... to fix the whole silly 'tundra colonisation' problem... is it really realistic to have engineers planting forests in tundra? I don't think so, honestly... how about removing the ability of workers to plant forests in tundra... then given that tundra is not habitable in DyP, it would mean that tundra would remain so - with the exception of the few bits that might bear some forest. This would mean you could turn most of Greenland on the DyP Earth map into flat tundra, and not worry about the AI colonising it stupidly (not that it has in my games so far...).

You could also put more resources in those areas then, which would mean that a ****ty little town growing from only one square of forest and some sea would be very worthwhile as it would be the only way to access all those resources...

Just a thought :-)

Oh, and I agree on the marines->grunt upgrade path comment... marines should go straight to spec ops - actually they should not even upgrade to spec ops, but simply coexist as a cheaper alternative.

Also, why the urge to include theocracy? I would say, dump theocracy as it is a fairly useless, self-destructive government (like in the real world...). The AI has troubles enough as it is... providing it with the option to hurt itself by switching to theocracy is not useful. Also think realism - why would a democractic nation turn to theocracy in times of war? It's not realistic at all. Imagine the US getting attacked by canada and turning into a theocracy to defend itself better???? Surely not :-P Democratic governments that respect civil rights have consistently outproduced and out-warred despotic governments. There is simply no reason for the inclusion of theocracy in the mod - unless you go for the CtP option of giving it a hugely cheap 'fanatical terrorist' unit that can suicide-bomb cities and units (and do them a lot of damage), and a more expensive suitcase nuke terrorist that can be built without access to uranium.

Otherwise I see no point to theocracy in this game.

Other comments I can think of, for govts:
Fascism is a hugely corrupt government. It should be as bad as chiefdom, but have a high draft limit and very large military police limit (say 5). Also if you really want to include it you should also have a cheap but effective fascist unit like in CtP to counterbalance a much higher self-destructive rate (which it should have). I can't really understand why fascism should be included, as to be honest (and historically accurate) it is more akin to thug-led anarchy than to an actual modern form of government, and is probably more than adequately represented by despotism or even chiefdom.


Sorry for the long post... just had a lot of ideas together that needed expressing :-) Hope they help someway.

Daniel

Isak
Aug 31, 2002, 11:36 AM
Canabliss & Morbius: Thanks - both of them are bugs alright. The Manhattan Project can of course be fixed by setting it to the correct requirement (Atomic Weap. Test)
- the other one can be fixed by opening up your favourite graphics software and... uhm... well, nevermind - let's just say it can't be fixed right now.

It will be fixed once the new tech's are added in, since we have to redo the tech-screens anyway.

ChaoticWanderer: Can you send me a savegame (and the Mod) - I'll try to take a look, as I think this could be one of the "bug-types" i'm trying to gather info on - the other ones I have seen have all happened before the Diplomacy screen comes up, but it's still close enough that I think this could be one of these bugs (which btw. also occurs in regular Civ3, so no need to scrap your DyP mod files over this ;) )

KDan: I think you're right about Theocracy - no fun in having all these govt's if Theocracy is the only one the AI uses. I don't think we're going to scrap it right away though - I think it's just a matter of making it more balanced. We removed the Tile Penalty, to keep the AI from starving itself, but naturally this has not done much to make the AI shy away from Theocracy :)

I personally like the idea of a cheap unit only available under Theocracy being it's primary benefit. (I'm also a huge CtP fan :cool: ) - let's hope it's possible in PtW.

And keep the posts coming, regardless of their length - the core members of the team 'round here, are not exactly known for brevity themselves :D - All input is appreciated, even if we have to spend all night reading it.

ChaoticWanderer
Aug 31, 2002, 12:17 PM
thats when it happens is right before the deplomacy window opens.

it will say someone wants tot alk if you say yes it crashes and sometimes it crashes like if someone was about to send you a demand.

but of the one time after i crashed and i restarted the auto save it asked me to talk again and is aid yes this time the window opened and the leader head was all distorted and weird looking.

i forgot to cut the auto save out of the game DUH was going to but machine crashed but it will hapen again and when it does will send it to you

lloydy
Aug 31, 2002, 01:09 PM
I have a small bug with the Caravan playing as the English in 0.86. The caravan will build a colony with the Button on the toolbar but hitting B won't work...