I've played several games now, and I have never reserached Drama. I usually don't even trade for it. The AI seems to get it early, so the free Bard would have some expensive trade offs. The theatres are expensive (200 or 300 I think) and their effect is duplicated by the Gambling House (and you get gold to boot).

Out side of a cultural victory, is there any reason to research Drama or build a theatre?

Theaters provide happiness which can be very important, esp at higher difficulty levels.

Plus since my favorite civ is Balseraph, that means CULTURE, CULTURE, CULTURE!!

Theatres provide +1 happy from dye. +1 Happy per 10% on the culture slider, Cost - 300.

Gambling House - +3 gold, +10% city maint., +1 Happy 10% on the gold slider, Cost - 200.

Pagan Temple - +1 Happy from Incense, Cost - 100.

Other Temples - +1 Happy from (depends on religion), Cost - 120

Brewery - +1 Happy form Corn, Rice, Wheat, Cost - 140.

Carnival - +1 Happy, Cost 120.

Hunting Lodge - +1 Happy from Fur, +1 Health from Deer, Cost - 100.

Inn - +1 Trade Route, +25% Trade Route yield, +1 Happy from Wine, Heals units an extra 25% Damage per turn, Cost 250

Jeweler - +1 Happy & +5% Gold from Gold, Gems and Pearls, Cost 120.

Public Baths - +3 Happy, -1 Health, Cost 150

Theaters provide equal or less benefit for more cost in hammers. In fact, many of these (Pagan Temple, Brewery, Carnival, Hunting Lodge, Inn) come just as quickly on the Tech Tree as Drama and you don't have to research a dead end tech to get it.

That's hardly a fair comparison. You ignore the culture from the theater but leave the gold from the gambling house?

Theaters provide culture which can be really important- especially on border cities. During peace time, I am always pushing my neighbors borders back with culture. I don't usually go for culture victories, but it has happened, the border push can be useful to steal resources/ starve enemy production. Plus they don't carry the maintenance penalty.

It's all a choice- like how I never build the guilds because I don't want the 10% penalty except maybe in one city. Even then I usually skip that tech until late in the game because I would rather sneak around more forcefully- IE with leveled up stooges :)

It is a choice. I wish it was a harder choice, though. Theatres are the most expensive building in the game (am I right about 300 hammers?). At that cost, there are just too many better choices. An Obelisk, for instance accomplishes the same culture benefit (-1 gold/turn) for one fifth the hammer cost.

I'm just wondering if the Theatre is just a niche building for culture mongers. Do you use them a lot when not playing the Balseraphs?

in games with more AIs than the size dictates, theatres are vital. there aren't many buildings that add base culture, except wonders, the only two i can think of off the top of my head are obelisks and theatres, each giving you a bard specialist spot. that means double your base culture by building theatres, and it rewards you with happiness for shifting the culture slider. in packed maps culture becomes very important.

the cost is pretty heavy, but its manageable.

It is a choice. I wish it was a harder choice, though. Theatres are the most expensive building in the game (am I right about 300 hammers?). At that cost, there are just too many better choices. An Obelisk, for instance accomplishes the same culture benefit (-1 gold/turn) for one fifth the hammer cost.

I'm just wondering if the Theatre is just a niche building for culture mongers. Do you use them a lot when not playing the Balseraphs?

Not sure about the cost- but I remember they are not cheap. I might not prioritize the tech if I'm not actively trying to push culture, but I always research it, at which point theaters become mandatory- if not priority- buildings in my cities.

I could go for a bit lower cost. I'm a big fan of culture and extending my borders, but drama doesn't usually seem worth the cost lately.
I'd lower either the theater or drama cost by like 15% or so.

I'd prefer if instead of every 10% culture giving a flat one extra happiness face, we went back to the old civ system of x culture/luxuries = one happy face*. This would make Drama enabling the culture slider much more important IMO. As it is, the only game I've researched Drama was too with the Balseraphs, and only because my first GP was a bard...

*Say ten culture per happy face? Though then the Liberty civic should probably be toned down.

@ Maniac-If you can do it in python, I think it would be cool... It would take some balancing, but it would be much better. Other solution would be adding (much) more culture happiness modifiers (on hippodrome, tavern)
Other malus on culture slider is that 1 culture is generally worth less than 1 gold/science, and on top of that, there are more moddifiers on gold/science than on culture. Perhaps culture from buildings should be reduced across the board, but culture % moddifiers increased.

1 month ago I started making balancing changes to FfH, one of them was reducing cost of theaters to 200, and adding +1 happy (And dont forget they give +1 happy under consumption)

Perhaps culture from buildings should be reduced across the board, but culture % moddifiers increased.Very few buildings give culture, most do give % modifiers.
Other malus on culture slider is that 1 culture is generally worth less than 1 gold/scienceI disagree, sometimes. Iow, culture is more situational. On most border cities, I am more concerned with getting 1 or 2 culture/turn more than 1 or 2 science or gold /turn more.
Then again, if you have significantly higher than a foe, the extra won't help, unlike science or money.

Very few buildings give culture, most do give % modifiers.
I disagree, sometimes. Iow, culture is more situational. On most border cities, I am more concerned with getting 1 or 2 culture/turn more than 1 or 2 science or gold /turn more.

But the problem is you usually have most culture in your core cities (due to wonders and culture slider should you use that) where you need that culture the least... :sad:

Anyway, I'd love to implement this with python, and I think it's possible (there is some line to check how much culture a city is producing I believe) but I don't know how to - the only way I can write events is by using and copying examples of already written events. ;)

I build Theaters to get the specialists, so that I can get a great Artist. Nothing kills the enemy faster then dropping the culture bomb. And since you get happiness while expanding culture, you get a double benefit, rather then getting money and happiness from the Gambling Houses.

I can think of a few cases in which Drama would be very useful:

1) A very long war, leading to a great deal of war unhappiness. Assuming you have Theatres in your core cities, each 10% invested in Culture would boost happiness by +2.

2) Anytime I have the Kuriotates as my neighbour.

3) When a valued ally has mana nodes bordering my territory, and I do not want to sour our friendship (and trade) with war.

In Vanilla civ, I build Theaters all the time. The +1 happy and the extra base culture are all extremely effective for the cost, both for expanding borders as well as keeping core cities happy. In FfH, a Theater is the absolute last priority for me, unless I am going for a cultural victory or should find myself in a difficult cultural border war, both of which are very rare occurrences. The effect is simply not worth the cost.

I do tend to research Drama in FfH for a couple of reasons. The Great Bard is very useful, and having access to the culture slider is very important in some situations (long wars, culture wars, expanding borders). Access to Theaters is not one of those reasons.

I'm not sure the best way to make Theaters attractive, but at the very least I think the cost should be reduced to 200 or the effect should be much more noticeable.

I can think of a few cases in which Drama would be very useful:

1) A very long war, leading to a great deal of war unhappiness. Assuming you have Theatres in your core cities, each 10% invested in Culture would boost happiness by +2.

Yes, but in those situations I would usually prefer to get 3 1/3 Swordsmen and run the culture slider higher. That would help me get the war over quicker.

3) When a valued ally has mana nodes bordering my territory, and I do not want to sour our friendship (and trade) with war.

That, and cultural victory, are about the only times I consider Theaters attractive. However, there are so many other cultural % buildings that are so much cheaper, that the Theater still generally ends up being a last priority. You might be better off, for example, building a temple and then building culture in the city.

Lol, Schmoe. You ever experience +20:mad: from War Unhappiness? :p

But I do agree with you: Theatres could come a little cheaper.

Lol, Schmoe. You ever experience +20:mad: from War Unhappiness? :p

But I do agree with you: Theatres could come a little cheaper.

Holy Moly! That's a lot of unhappy people. It's Vietnam all over again. :lol:

To answer the question, no, never have had that much war weariness. Maybe I'm not warring enough :crazyeye:

How about adding a diplomatic modifier for researching drama? Something like:

"+2: Your antics amuse us."

I think that would be flavourful.

How about adding a diplomatic modifier for researching drama? Something like:

"+2: Your antics amuse us."

I think that would be flavourful.

Clever thinking. :) Perhaps not for every leader, but for a few?

lets take a heavy heavy expansionistic approach to what you guys are debateing. if i have dye i am gonna pull +1 happy from my theatres. on top of that if i set my culture at say 20% now for an additional +2 happy. i am now pulling +3 happy in said city. on top of that 20% of my transient income is now devoted to culture so that once i pull 5 coin in a city it will start to generate 1 culture. i now no longer need to bother with any other sort of culture modifires.

if i was looking at quick expansion trying to cover surface area thats more then likely how i would do it. unless of course i had the leader trait. keep in mind though if your taking cites quickly and those cities dont have the hammers for an obelisk or culture build , setting the slider down a notch is a wonderful way to get a culture pop on your border cities.