GOTM 14: Napoleonhttp://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/leaders/leaders0018.jpg

This game MUST be played in patch version 1.61. We will NOT accept any games played under any other patch versions, and you can't play it in warlords!

Further, it MUST be played using HOF mod version 1.61.010. (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.010.exe) (Different release from last month!)




Game settings:
Civilization: France (Leader: Napoleon ; Traits: Aggressive, Industrious)
Rivals: 6
Difficulty: Emperor
Map: Archepelago
Mapsize: Standard
Climate: Tropical
Water level: high
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal
Options: normal.
Victory Conditions: all enabled

Napoleon:
Napoleon is Aggressive and Industrious; starting with The Wheel and Agriculture. Aggressive allows a free combat 1 promotion for melee & gunpowder units, and double production speed of barracks and drydocks. Industrious allows +50% wonder production, as well as double production speed of forges.

Unique unit: Musketeer:
The Musketeer replaces the standard Musketman. The cost and strength of the unit is the same, however it has two movement points, instead of one for the musketman.

The starting screenshot is here (click for a bigger version!)
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm14small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/gotm14large.jpg)

Adventurer Class bonuses:

Start with a workboat and knowledge of mining.



Challenger Class Equalisers:

All other civilizations begin with an extra random technology.
The crabs to the north of the settler are removed.

I was planning to stick to Warlords from now on, but the combination of Emperor/normal speed/standard map/high water is pretty appealing.

Two other thoughts:

1. Musketeers aren't so useful on an archipelago map.

2. That's the stiffest Challenger penalty I've seen! I like the 1-crab start, in abstract, but I think it will make the games pretty incomparable with the normal start.

Hey, it's the WOTM04 starting position repeated for a GOTM :mischief:

(And yes, I'm a sad git who's sitting here reading civ forums at 2am on xmas morning. I have an excuse. I have flu and can't do anything else ;) )

Merry xmas everyone!

Awesome !
High difficulty and reasonable map size.
Finally a game that can be finished without quitting your job and abandoning all friends (well at least not for so long :crazyeye: )

@ DynamicSpirit - you're not the only one, feel better soon !

I was planning to stick to Warlords from now on, but the combination of Emperor/normal speed/standard map/high water is pretty appealing.

Two other thoughts:

1. Musketeers aren't so useful on an archipelago map.
Actually, Musketeers aren't so useful '.' :mischief:


2. That's the stiffest Challenger penalty I've seen! I like the 1-crab start, in abstract, but I think it will make the games pretty incomparable with the normal start.
We're only getting a few challenger-class entries each month, so I figured that might as well make it a bit different.

I think I'm in for a rough time, as I'm on contender this time around...at least with those crabs we can mine that gold fairly quickly(once we research fishing and mining that is). That may be where my research goes, fishing then mining. Most likely I'll then go for BW, but it'll depend on whether I want to attempt some early wonders with that industrious trait.

There is another map option in Archipelago games. Is it Archipelago / Archipelago again?

I always like scouting, even with such a nice starting position. So warrior goes south to see if we miss something by settling in place.

Since it's 'pelago and high seas, we'll need to optimize city placement to squeeze in as many cities as possible. Doubtful I'll move if I don't spot more resources, though.

I'll definitely try for Colossus in this game. Maybe also GLight; if we can't get early contacts, at least we keep it from the AI.

There is another map option in Archipelago games. Is it Archipelago / Archipelago again?

There are three altogether. Apart from ordinary 'pelago, there are Snaky Continents and Tiny Islands.
Relevant question :cool:

There is another map option in Archipelago games. Is it Archipelago / Archipelago again?
Yes, it is that again.

Yay, an archi map! Err...emporer. No fresh water. So-so leader and not very useful UU. Hmmm.

North seems to be boreal forest type, so probably not much good land up there ? I wonder if the island extends south very far. I spy land to the east...probably another island unless we have a funky shape.

Will move the warrior SE and probably settle in place. Fishing -> mining -> BW I guess. If I can fit 9 cities I will try a quick culture win. I always get nervous and keep researching to cavalry/rifle or further...maybe this time I will get brave and stop at nationalism. Pray I don't get invaded. :p

cas

Chellenger penalty seems steep, well, we will see.

Further, it MUST be played using HOF mod version 1.61.0010. (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.0010.exe) (Different release from last month!)



This link has one zero too many in it
Should be
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.010.exe
instead of
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mods/HOF-1.61.0010.exe

Interesting set-up. We start with Agriculture but there's no fresh water. We have Crabs and Gold nearby but have to research Fishing and Mining before we can use them. The map is tropical but there's frozen-looking terrain visible, so we must be very far north. Not much habitable looking land around to settle on so we may need Sailing early in order to get some city sites. All in all, this has the feel of a difficult game, at least in the early stages.

I'm considering to go with the challenger bonus, 'cos this will be my first emperor game.
Can we use the workboat after the first turn or must we wait until fishing is researched?
Hopefully we have access to some AI with just a galley and use the aggresive trait.
Is anybody planning on using the second WB as an explorer?

I'm considering to go with the challenger bonus, 'cos this will be my first emperor game.

I think you mean "adventurer bonus".

If you get a free workboat, you should be able to use it right away to improve the clams tile, but you won't be able to work the clams tile until you discover Fishing. So, for all practical purposes, it won't do you any good before then (you could explore with it, for a few turns).

Can we use the workboat after the first turn or must we wait until fishing is researched?
...
Is anybody planning on using the second WB as an explorer?
You need fishing first, so you can use the firsth WB to explore a bit. I will use my third WB to explore, and build a fourth if necessary.

I ran a test game and managed to build four cities... This will be an interesting experience indeed.

You need fishing first, so you can use the firsth WB to explore a bit. I will use my third WB to explore, and build a fourth if necessary.

I ran a test game and managed to build four cities... This will be an interesting experience indeed.

Me ditto on the workboats. The first two will turn Paris into a poprushing centre, then I'll quickly build a third to explore with. The gold will probably see only intermittant use early in my game, since working a zero-food gold tile makes poprushing rather harder.

Unless one or two AIs are very conveniently placed, early wars are likely to be quite difficult on this map, which would make for an interesting challenge since in my experience on emperor level, early wars are all but essential to get very far. The likely rapid science pace by all civs on a sea-map combined with the slowness with which galleys move, and this being on normal speed will add to the difficulties in warring. Throw in that the relative lack of land squares is likely to make happiness resources harder than normal to find and - definitely will be an interesting experience.

Me ditto on the workboats. The first two will turn Paris into a poprushing centre, then I'll quickly build a third to explore with. The gold will probably see only intermittant use early in my game, since working a zero-food gold tile makes poprushing rather harder.

It seems to me that there's enough food to work the gold almost all the time. Even without lighthouses, you can work both clams and the gold hill for +4 fpt, which is +40 food in 10 turns, which is quite enough to replace poprushing losses. Of course, you may not work it for the first couple of turns when recovering from a poprush, but I think it should be worked most turns.

(Of course, that's after the gold is available---just getting to Mining, and building a worker, may not happen all that fast.)

I think you mean "adventurer bonus".

If you get a free workboat, you should be able to use it right away to improve the clams tile, but you won't be able to work the clams tile until you discover Fishing. So, for all practical purposes, it won't do you any good before then (you could explore with it, for a few turns).

of course :)

other question: it will take 12 turns or so to research fishing+mining.
So if we start with WB, (WB) and then worker, it will take a while before the gold becomes available. Is there time to research AH before BW? We might get lucky and see some horses nearby.

On another note: I did a random testgame and also got gold+crab in the startlocation. Only wonder I managed was SH. Oracle was built around 1300BC, the others at or before 750BC. The tech pace was mind blowing.
At one point the AI just gave Education to me...
I guess Monarch-strategies won't work on Emperor and I can forget about doing the CoL slingshot for sure.

Is there time to research AH before BW? We might get lucky and see some horses nearby.

Would you rather learn AH, or Pottery?

I guess it depends on whether you have horses in your fat cross, or not.

of course :)

other question: it will take 12 turns or so to research fishing+mining.
So if we start with WB, (WB) and then worker, it will take a while before the gold becomes available. Is there time to research AH before BW? We might get lucky and see some horses nearby.

On another note: I did a random testgame and also got gold+crab in the startlocation. Only wonder I managed was SH. Oracle was built around 1300BC, the others at or before 750BC. The tech pace was mind blowing.
At one point the AI just gave Education to me...
I guess Monarch-strategies won't work on Emperor and I can forget about doing the CoL slingshot for sure.
In my test game, I got the Oracle 1440 BC, which is not 100% safe. The rest was by AI: SH was 1280 BC, Pyramids 850 BC, Hanging Gardens 325 BC, Great Library 350 BC and Colossus 600 AD. I will try to keep up with the research pace, which means that I will go for the Oracle. This is not very novel, but if you calculate the value of the free tech compared to the cost in hammers, the ratio is too big to ignore IMO.
Potential build queue (depending on map as usual): worker, WB when possible, continue worker, WB, WB, WB(?), settler, oracle. Research queue: Fishing, Mining, Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, Writing, Code of Laws + CS/Phil or BW + Metal Casting.
In my simplified world, this start enables me to go for culture, diplomatic or SS. Highest speed possible in tech, at the cost of expansion/production. I have no experience in such games though, so I don't know if this is wise or not :confused:

My ambition would be for Colossus. Maybe having taken only Metal Casting from Oracle. If there are to be a lot of sea squares that we must work, the extra cash will be very useful in keeping in the tech race.

After playing a few test games, I'm not too sure about the Colossus. I mean: it can be done, but there's other things you'll need to sacrifice to get it so might not be worth it.
Each game have played out differently, the only thing I stuck to, was first 3 techs: Fishing --> Mining --> BW
and the build order: Warrior, switch to 2 workboats when Fishing came in, followed by growth to size 4 (while finishing warrior) and Worker --> Settler.

In one game I founded Judaism (!) cause the AI was so slow with Buddha and Hindu I took a shot. In another, I built the Oracle and got CoL first.

The game that I'm expecting will turn out to be closest to this GOTM (wild speculation) had me sharing a small 'pelago with Lizzy. She settled like crazy, but didn't get metals until it was too late and I landed axes and swords on her. After invading and finishing her off, I had deficit at 0% sci for some turns before I stabilized my economy. I didn't found any religions and built no wonders, but got religion from Lizzy.

Hmm. I've been playing lots of Terra maps lately. This will be a good change for me, I think. One step up in difficulty from my normal game, but that should be do-able, too. Can't wait.

Could someone provide us with a test map? That would be great! Thx in advance!

This could be a triple-whammy map. First, its a step up in difficulty. Second, Napoleon is rather ill-suited to the map. And third, we may be stuck with very little land to work. In my random maps, that is certainly what I found. Most of the other Civs got some sizable land mass to work with. France was stuck with very little land and was resource poor for the first part of the game.

I left map-finder running and tonight I'll see if there are any interesting maps to play.

Very interesting game. I have only played 3 archipelago maps. In the second one, I had 7 cities and zero luxuries resources. Researching alphabet took me ten centuries. Only when I traded a luxury from another civ, I got some economy going, with which I could come out of the hole. I won a difficult diplomacy victory.

I have no defined plan for this one. I will simply focus on a military victory (I need to learn how to wage naval wars) and I will keep my options open. As usual I don't plan to found religions and I won't I build the Oracle.

In my longest-played test game, I did manage to build the Colossus. It certainly isn't a great commerce generator, but it helped a bit. It may have helped generate more Great People. In that game, I was resource poor, and behind in tech because of the slow growth. I think researching to Astronomy with alacrity might be the key. Have some galleys ready to upgrade and settling parties ready to go, then colonize the best lands not easily reached and trade Astronomy to catch up on tech.

Could someone provide us with a test map? That would be great! Thx in advance!


Yes, please... Give me something to do this week-end! :)

I've made a bunch of random maps with map-finder that have two or more fishing resources, 1 or more gold, and two or more forests in the fat cross. I was using them to get a general feel for playing maps of this type. But, I had the climate set to temperate rather than tropical. They probably aren't much use to anyone. I'll try to cook something up, but don't hold your breath. I'll probably end up doing something else tonight.

A few thoughts

I played an archipelago map last week-end, and the main difficulty was the lack of ressources (either food or luxury). An islandic city with no food ressources takes ages to grow and is pretty useless before a long time.

No luxury meant that monarchy was a key tech: an happy face per warrior is nice.

I have the feeling that we are up north, so i would beline to sailing and try to grab some better land in the south.

If the colossus is not that usefull, the great lighthouse is definitively needed here. Great merchand points are also good. Last game, i ran a 100% science economy for centuries thx to three great merchands (2 farmed ones and one got through being the first to whatever tech).

What is funny on these maps is that wars can be pretty fast. Find the poorly defended cities and take them at the same time in one turn.

EDIT: an additionnal comment: map intelligence is very important, especially considering the high sea level setting. There are very few good city spots (i played a couple test maps yesterday), and the AIs are grabing them pretty fast. I am wondering whether blockading them could be a good idea (though it would be inconsistent with the Great Lighthouse strategy).

A question, sorry I am a bit confused.
When saves will be avalible?

I have attached a map that has two crabs and one gold, but it is not identical to the screenshot.

Here is another test start, somewhat similar to the real one.

145073

I mean when game itself will start?

I mean when game itself will start?Next year. That is, Jan 1.

Next year. That is, Jan 1.

And I'm looking forward to it more than any other recent GOTM. If the map is typical of high-sea archipelago maps then this is going to be a fascinating map to play on. (It is a bit of an 'if' though as we've had two recent GOTMs - WOTM01 and GOTM12 - that weren't typical of their maptypes).

I just hope we aren't isolated in a way that requires astronomy to expand. Expansion and warfare using galleys can be intertaining.

The last gotm A/A map required only galleys to reach all the land masses. Is that circumstance standard for A/A maps? If not, does anyone have a feel for the likelihood of that being the case on this kind of map?

The last gotm A/A map required only galleys to reach all the land masses. Is that circumstance standard for A/A maps? If not, does anyone have a feel for the likelihood of that being the case on this kind of map?

I think the likelihood on a randomly generated map would be close to zero.

With high water level, it's very unlikely you can reach all major land masses with galleys, even with cultural bridges.

Funny thing about both saves: I founded Hindu by beelining while building a settler.

After quite a few tests, here's my thoughts: if you build a settler first, you won't need worker techs or fishing in the first 30 turns anyway. In my test games, I can usually get CoL from the Oracle by going Fishing --> Mining and up the religion techs to Priest and Writing. I'll have 2-3 cities by then (3 more often than 2). There are fewer huts out there for the AI to pop Poly. All this makes me think I'll probably gamble for Hindu while slow building my first settler.

I prefer to build the Oracle in my second city since the capitol will be my early settler/worker pump. And also because I will only need one GP priest for this game, so might as well concentrate the points.

After getting Writing, I'll pick BW so I can whip or chop for some last minute hammers in the Oracle city

I have had only two test games (out of ~10) in which I was really close to the nearest AI. In all other games, I was isolated. This makes GLib+HE+a couple of scientists; lighbulbing up to Astro, extremely powerful.

I prefer to build the Oracle in my second city since the capitol will be my early settler/worker pump.What if you need a galley for your second city?

What if you need a galley for your second city?

That has only happened once in testing, but even then you'll know on the first turn, so can always switch back to Fishing --> Sailing.
On the gotm map, there's room for at least one more city on our starting island, N NW NW of the start.

So when is the starting save available?

I think I'll send the warrior to one tile south. Probably the settle to one tile south two, I wager.

If no chance to irrigate, and need to conserve forest for production, then probably no need to build workers until Mining/Metal Casting. Fishing/workboats will be top priority, followed by all religions up to Judaism. Then sailing-lighthouse, and early wonders (use that IND)---stonehenge/oracle (especially Stonehenge because of probable lower production on this map). Though if, pop3 arrives well before a workboat, might switch to a worker to mine that gold for faster research (probably work both seafood, and the gold mine @ pop3 to win the religion race). Colossus will probably be especially good on this map, better than the lighthouse.

Given the probable isolation of this map, it will be a great boon to have most of the religions and very early wonders, since the other civs won't be able to spread them quickly. Hopefully their own unhappiness will hamper them, slowing their tech. Definitely don't give out anything to the AI that will help their tech, to make a Domination possible.

The capital will exist to produce wonders. Settlers/workers will come out of a second city hopefully.

Edit: created a hypothetical scenario from the pre-game (attached). Added two 'dilemmas' of possible city locations (iron to the north and incense/fish to south). I figure there are 2-3 city locations in the first island.

In my first run, working the 2x crabs and then finally the gold (w/o mine) with the 3rd pop did net me a beeline for Monotheism and founding all 3 religions, but I completely lost out on stonehenge, oracle(metal-casting and Colossus), Great Lighthouse. Possible mistake--building a worker and settler combo, and maybe founding monotheism to early; Possibly should have chop-rushed to get the Oracle.
Research path: Fishing->Meditation->Polytheism->Mining->Masonry->Monotheism and then to whatever was convenient to build.
Oh and settled one tile west to save the plains. Grassland is just seafood or soon to be plains, in this scenario, except a cottage or too; hammers are more rare than gold.

Definitely don't convert to a religion or civic until you're in unhappiness in this scenario.

EDIT EDIT: Ran thru this some more and definitely it Meditation is a fluke. It's 99% impossible in this scenario. You also have to decide your first wonder: Oracle or Stonehenge or Parthenon; second wonder: Colossus or Great Lighthouse.

My best build/research order was (absolutely no chop-rushing until the forests spread): Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up)

@fish work 2x crabs with 2pop; @2 pop start building a worker--use him to mine the gold; after the worker, build one workboat for one crab; @priesthood build Oracle working only one crab, the mine, and the forests (they should spread); convert to slavery and religion; whip a forge; lighthouse (to counter the sickness from the forge with more food); now.... you could build Colossus right away and be pretty sure to get it, but one more gambit is to go straight to Great Lightouse, and then Colossus (didn't test it).
A Stonehenge/Parthenon gambit at this point is probably impossible.

At that point stop the wonder-addiction and start settling and then galley settling. (from the retire score, you're near last place with not quite 400 points).


EDIT EDIT EDIT: OOPS I played this on Monarch :*(

After quite a few tests, here's my thoughts: if you build a settler first, you won't need worker techs or fishing in the first 30 turns anyway. In my test games, I can usually get CoL from the Oracle by going Fishing --> Mining and up the religion techs to Priest and Writing. I'll have 2-3 cities by then (3 more often than 2). There are fewer huts out there for the AI to pop Poly. All this makes me think I'll probably gamble for Hindu while slow building my first settler.

1. Can you get your 2nd city to be the Hindu holy city? Or is that too much to hope for?

2. Why do you want COL? Why not try to use the Oracle for Metal Casting? Below, you suggest that you have time to research Writing+BW before finishing the Oracle, so you can certainly research BW+Pottery, in less time.

If no chance to irrigate, and need to conserve forest for production, then probably no need to build workers until Mining/Metal Casting. Fishing/workboats will be top priority, followed by all religions up to Judaism.

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

So when is the starting save available?

1 January, 2007, right after the server's clock strikes midnight, CST to welcome the New Year. (If ainwood uploads it in time, that is :mischief: )

1. Can you get your 2nd city to be the Hindu holy city? Or is that too much to hope for?

2. Why do you want COL? Why not try to use the Oracle for Metal Casting? Below, you suggest that you have time to research Writing+BW before finishing the Oracle, so you can certainly research BW+Pottery, in less time.

1. Well, I have never been able to found Hindu in my second city on emperor. It usually takes 25 turns to get the first settler out (unless your capitol is on a plain hill or a special (4 f+h) resource is available). I believe Myst + Hindu is around 21 turns. I tested delaying Poly in a test game, but the AI got it 2 turns before the settler popped.
EDIT: of course, all that makes building Oracle in the capitol, getting the shrine there and then turning city #2 or #3 into the GP pump more of an option ;)

2. Ah yes, if I get Hindu, I will definitely sling to MC instead of CoL. ;) :santa with a pimp's beard: :lol: I've always thought the benefits of early religion would outweigh the offset of grabbing a tech that is not on the path to Astro, but I could be wrong there. EDIT: I probably am, come to think of it. Time to go test some more, I guess :cool: :D
Only problem is, I'll need CoL for CS sooner or later...

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

Buddha is a :nono: even if you go for it off the bat. The AI has it invariably in 3680 or 3640 BC.
Fishing --> Myst --> Hindu --> Masonry --> Mono landed me Juda in one game, but I only went for Juda cause Hindu was extrordinarily slow in that particular game.
Suffice to say, I didn't get Hindu in that game, so I don't think it's possible to get Hindu if you go for Fishing first.

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

I've gamed it and now I agree. Polytheism is possible if you surrender Meditation without a fight.

1. Well, I have never been able to found Hindu in my second city on emperor. It usually takes 25 turns to get the first settler out (unless your capitol is on a plain hill or a special (4 f+h) resource is available). I believe Myst + Hindu is around 21 turns.

You could settle on the gold hill. :crazyeye:

You could settle on the gold hill. :crazyeye:

:lol: Oh, I'm a weak soul. You almost tempted me :nono:

Settling on the gold hill would be reasonable, if there's a fish offshore. But, unfortunately, you can't know before moving, so it seems an unreasonable choice.

Besides, 1 turn to move, 20 turns to build settler, 3 turns to move it to the 2nd city site, might still be too long.

Yes, that's 24 turns and Poly was founded on turn 22 or 23 in the test. Maybe it would work in some games when the AI is slow, but I feel it's enough of a gamble as it is :eek:

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle. Don't remember the exact items. Popping into WorldBuilder showed that there was plenty of room for expansion.

In my test maps, there are usually several civs that get sizable land masses. France is always stuck on a smallish bit of land. A smashing-good start might be nice for a change.

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle.

Shouldn´t there be bronze-working in your tech-order, or how will you get to the wonders first without chops ?


In my test maps, there are usually several civs that get sizable land masses. France is always stuck on a smallish bit of land. A smashing-good start might be nice for a change.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but doesn't the frosting on the northern trees indicate that we are way in the north on a tropical map ? And if that is true, we are probably alone on a tiny piece of land that soon fades into ice.

In 5 tests for these settings, here's when the AI reached things:
------------ Earliest Median
Religions:
Buddhism: 3680 3680
Hinduism: 3600 3120
Judaism 2640 2360
Confucianism: 1000 900
Christianity: 900 600
Taoism: 400 375BC

Wonders:
Stonehenge 1960 1520
The Oracle 1240 1040
Great Light. 550 425
Pyramids 1400! 150BC
Parthenon 800 150
TH Gardens 150AD 450AD
Great Library 560AD 720AD
They only built the Colossus before The Great Library (when I stopped) in 2/5 games, didn't record the dates though.

The earlier it's possible to found Buddhism on that map is 3320, so that's impossible. You can found Hinduism in 3160(actually 3200 if you use the gold and don't grow), so that's definitely possible, since that's before their median.

You can certainly guarantee Stonehenge, since it's possible to get as early as 2720. Others aren't quite as easy to calculate, but all should be possible (we are industrious, after all).

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle. .

That will found Hinduism in 3000 and Judaism in 2200, which would have only gotten Hinduism 1/5 times and Judaism 2/5 times in my games (although there was intersection, so in one game it would have gotten both). You get Stonehenge in a fairly safe 1960 though.

Thank you for posting the relatively similar starts earlier in this thread. Normally I'm all for opening and playing the real thing and seeing where it takes me first time out, but for this level, REALLY wanted a taste of what it might be like on GOTM day.

Between the starts and re-reading some of the succession threads (like Merz02 for example), I found I was able to survive! Not sure if a victory is at hand, but living to see my "actual birthday", if not winning by that point, is always a goal!

Settling on the gold hill would be reasonable, if there's a fish offshore. But, unfortunately, you can't know before moving, so it seems an unreasonable choice.

Besides, 1 turn to move, 20 turns to build settler, 3 turns to move it to the 2nd city site, might still be too long.1. Warrior SE and you see the tile E of the gold hill. Of course, you still might not see a possible fish in the fat cross.

2. That's the stiffest Challenger penalty I've seen! I like the 1-crab start, in abstract, but I think it will make the games pretty incomparable with the normal start.You think this might mean there's more seafood E of the Gold hill? Just a thought.

Playing with both the games from Gnejs and Erkon (Thanks for posting!) I was able to get Oracle by 1600 BC with a bit of micromanaging- still leaving two forests in the fat cross of Paris (health may be a problem). Had two cities at the time. Oracle could be obtained even earlier if MetalCasting were the free tech and went for Med instead of Poly, but needed to wait to get Writing and wanted the whip to cost 1 pop vs 2. I'm thinking about cultural win if either stone is nearby or the Pyr get built by a nearby civ. The two test games were quite a nice contrast in that one (Erkon's) left you isolated and the other by Gnejs had Cyrus breathing right down your neck with the Hindu city next to Paris.

Went Fish/Mine/BW/Pot/Myst/Poly/Priest/Writing/Sail
Built WB/Warrior/WB/Worker/Settler/Warrior/Oracle
Heavy use of whipping and fast grow back due to a *good* case of crabs in Paris ;)

Next techs and strategies depend on level of isolation; Orleans will work on galley ASAP.

Looks like a fun game. I thought I'd need to use the Adventurer bonuses, but this start seem pretty decent as long as a war-like civ isn't withing quick galley landing distance.

In Gnejs's test game, the islands are all galley accessible and they fill up fast with rival civs who like to stomp (Cyrus, Fred, Julius C.).

Just have to wait one.. more.. day to start the real one.

1. Warrior SE and you see the tile E of the gold hill. Of course, you still might not see a possible fish in the fat cross.

Seeing a 3rd crabs 1E of gold hill isn't useful information, because you'll get that tile in your fat cross whether you settle in place or on gold hill. What would be useful is to know if there are any fish 2E from gold hill, where they would be in the fat cross only if you move. Without some benefit like that, moving onto the gold hill, and giving up the extra commerce from the gold mine, seems very hard to justify.

You think this might mean there's more seafood E of the Gold hill? Just a thought.

No. I think it just means what Ainwood said: they are trying to create more of a distinction between the contender and challenger start.

Interesting set-up. We start with Agriculture but there's no fresh water. We have Crabs and Gold nearby but have to research Fishing and Mining before we can use them. The map is tropical but there's frozen-looking terrain visible, so we must be very far north. Not much habitable looking land around to settle on so we may need Sailing early in order to get some city sites. All in all, this has the feel of a difficult game, at least in the early stages.

My thoughts exactly. I can live with the slow visible resource start (what choice do you have anyway) but a hammer-poor capitol is a deal-breaker. Looks a lot like the GOTM 13 start but potentially even lower production. Will be less painful though (with the wonder bonus) to move the capitol if needed.

I'm not tracking the discussion about settling on the gold hill. Seems like almost certain suicide to me.

I'm not tracking the discussion about settling on the gold hill. Seems like almost certain suicide to me.

I don't know what you mean by "tracking". What I wrote was that, if there happened to be a fish resource 2E of the gold hill, then the extra value of getting the fish into your fat cross, plus the extra hammer from settling on gold hill, would roughly offset the loss of commerce from the gold mine, and the loss of one turn. This doesn't seem too hard to understand (you don't have to agree with it).

I also don't know what you mean by "suicide". Certainly the game can be won either way. I could settle just about anywhere and win, if that's the only goal.

Sorry, that was unclear and flippant. Your posts always deserve thoughtful review and respect.

I had blinders on regarding the hammer-poor appearance of the starting site. In my tunnel vision I wasn't even considering food or gold, only moving the settler 1 tile north or south to maybe add a couple of hammer tiles. It seemed "suicide" to move to the gold hill production-wise, not from a whole game perspective. Now that I study it, moving to the gold hill could include hammers in the darkened tiles due east and due south. As you say, it would be roughly revenue neutral and could have a bonus food so it could indeed be a very good idea all the way around.

Now north, south and east are options. I usually just settle in place before I give myself a headache or put my foot in my mouth!

I'm not seriously thinking about moving the settler onto the hill, anyway. But I do agree that losing the hammers from that hill might be pretty inconvenient. I don't mind getting most of my production from slavery, but, it's nice to have some hammers!

It will be my second GOTM but i'll try. My first one was victorious, may be this one will become successful too. I wonder how long can i withstand? The set-up looks pretty difficult :crazyeye:

Thanks to
Erkon (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4924199&postcount=34) and Gnejs (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4924207&postcount=35) for the practice maps.

This is a bit late, but I'm still playing test games (join my thanks to everyone else's for those) myself, so if anyone is in the same boat... (Sorry, horrible pun in this game...)

I'm beginning to think (from playing the test games) that the gold and crabs are a snare for the unwary.

A couple of people were talking about getting Polytheism, Monotheism and the Oracle, with the gist of the conversation being that it was a waste of time to try, because the delay caused by researching Fishing and/or Mining made it impossible.

I would agree Fishing and/or Mining make the others impossible, but after playing a few test scenarios, I'm getting more and more inclined to think you should just play your usual strategy, researching Fishing somewhat earlier than usual. (I assume Mining is pretty early on everybody's list.)

In my tests, if I did NOT try for either Mining or Fishing, I could get both Hinduism and Judaism. I missed the Oracle by about 6 turns. When I tried researching Priest after Hinduism, it cost me Judaism (again, by about 6 turns). While I did succeed in building Oracle, I built it TOO early - I had to settle for Monarchy.

On the occasions when I built Fishing first, I lost out on Hinduism, Monotheism, AND Oracle.

The gold and crabs aren't going anywhere, and the two commerce you get off each one isn't going to give you an overwhelming addition to the 9 you're already getting out of your capital. They ARE nice, but disrupting an already-working strategy to get the oh-so-wonderful goodies looks like a losing strategy to me, hence my comment about them being a snare.

Where I've gotten stuck in this type of game is what to do about the AI's huge advantages. The usual rule (which I'm honestly just beginning to master) is "Attack early and often", taking advantage of the AI's infelicities in the military realm.

Defending should be easier (if you're not on the same island with somebody), but attack is going to be murder.

At Emperor, every AI is going to be outteching AND outproducing me. Even on a land game, it's hard to get enough forces together to reliably take a city against those advantages. If I have to build transports and spend the time to move units relatively long distances, it's going to be a looong uphill battle.


Oh, one side note. One thing I discovered when playing the test maps: always send your galleys out "pregnant" (i.e. with at least one settler). If you discover somplace decent, by the time you come back and get a settler, the good spot will be long gone. (Apologies to anyone for whom I'm stating the obvious. It was an obvious-in-hindsight discovery for me.)

I was able to do all right getting fishing first (in test games), getting Stonehenge + CoL with Oracle and founding the religion, or getting Pyramids (but not both of the last two). Only built one fishing boat though, so you have enough surplus to use the gold and still grow, two early on isn't worth the turns, since you just get too much surplus. But yeah, this game really netralizes human advantages. Firstly, we make much smarter terrain improvements, but with so much water, there isn't much to gain there, and as you said, war is hard. Cultural victory is basically a cheap way of bypassing comp advantages, but even that's hard, since religions spread so poorly on archiepelago.

Could it be worth it to move the settler west before settling to connect the eastern and western "oceans"? This is good for the future navy movements. However, the advantage would depend on how small the island is. If its a very long north-south island it might be worth it. Anyway, there is not much to loose by moving one west before settling.

Hmm... I didn't even start my GOTM13 yet and GOTM14 takes such a short time to complete...

I think my tactic will simply be a conquest victory. Nothing fancy, just amassing many military units and go win battles. Start in place, mining, fishing, sailing, bronze/iron working or maybe go with mass archery or horses if resources permit me to.

I don't like sea maps much and musketeers are only good when beelined for and even then they aren't that great. At least they'll have +1 strength for free. That does save us some time leveling them to get the higher promotions.

Just finished GOTM 13 so only starting to look at this one.

If there is fish 2E, would the blue circle be on the hill? Also, looks like 3E is land ... are fish less likely to be on coast? They often seem to be 2 away from land, but maybe that is not a true pattern.

Moving settler west may be inferior, as that sacrifies a grass cottage for a plains cottage. Founding on the plain would seem to be the best use of the plains tile. Moving SW would be justified by a resource in the south. Or am I missing something?

dV

Please do not post in the pre-game threads once you have started the game

Please do not post in the pre-game threads once you have started the game

Could it be worth it to move the settler west before settling to connect the eastern and western "oceans"? This is good for the future navy movements. However, the advantage would depend on how small the island is. If its a very long north-south island it might be worth it. Anyway, there is not much to loose by moving one west before settling.
Not finding marathon to my taste, I will try this one. I think your point is a good one; I'll move the Warrior towards the South to get a feel if the Island stops just out of sight or keeps going. If it keeps going I'll probably settle to the West to connect the 2 sides; could be very important strategically and it gets all visible resources within the fat cross.

Quick question: are permanent alliances allowed in GOTMs?

Sorry Alan, I didn't realise that my posts could be seen as spoilers (I didn't give away any location of resources or civs to meet and so forth). I wish everyone good luck and lots of fun for this GOTM.

KingdomBrunel , I do not think in this particular GOTM they are.
If there any unstandart options checked in it will be stated in description of particular GOTM.

Ok, thanks. I misunderstood, thought that permanent alliances were enabled by default, and that I wasn't seeing them due to not having met some unknown criteria. Alliances being disabled by default makes things much clearer.

Thanks again

I'm new to the GotM. Is there a particular time of the month at which the first spoiler thread is usually posted? The initial post dates for the last few first spoilers vary a bit, so I can't be sure.

The intention is for the two spoilers to be opened five and ten days after the game starts respectively. It doesn't always happen, as it's a manual process and depends on whether the game designer is available at that time.

Thanks, Alan.

I will sit on my comments until Ainwood returns to us, then. :mischief:

Speaking about start, why isn't anyone considering building a worker while waiting for fishing? There'd be not much land to trod with High Sea Archi Archi, starting warrior should be enough IMO. Then if you set citizen on gold hill while building a boat you get it in 10 turns and no hammers decay on prebuilded worker - then finish him and mine gold soon, also good for building senond boat at pop 2.

I've just spent the last 30 seconds mentally composing in my head a reply explaining why I wasn't considering building a worker first for WOTM05... Then it clicked :lol:

Actually for GOTM14 I for one did decide before the start of the game that I intended to probably build a worker while waiting for fishing then swap to a workboat. Unfortunately spoiler conditions prevent me from revealing whether I actually followed through on my intentions... ;)