Hello The Council,

Here is a screenshot of your starting location. Please note the following things:

There is y-wrapping. That means units can move from the bottom of the screen and appear at the top.

The screenshot is at 4050 BC because when creating PBEM saves, you must use the first turn to assign passwords. Creating this turn before 4000 BC was made so that the game does indeed start at 4000 BC.

You have 48 hours to play this first save.

Please post in the Turn Tracker in the main forum when sent.

You are to send all saves to Team SABER (all team emails are in the Team Info thread in the main forum).

So, good luck, and don't forget to have fun! :)

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/406/koreafk8.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=koreafk8.jpg)

:woohoo:

Initial thoughts:

GREAT start for us. On a river. Commerce. Easy food - Floodplains, Bonus Grasslands, and even a COW!!!

Too bad we're not quite coastal, but that can be taken care of with the second or third city.

Commerce, commerce, commerce will be the motif of our game. This start is very nice, indeed :yup:


On the other hand, it would be foolish to assume that the other teams have equally profitable starts.

Yes lots of nice tiles to work with there, settling in place gives us an easy four turn settler factory.

I assume we would not want to consider any move greater than 1 tile, that would make the only reasonable move 1 north. The disadvantages of this would be losing the cow until the first culture expansion and also losing a turn to move, the gain would be space to put a city on the grass tile east of the sugar and possibly another extra city in the first tier.

Nice start. Can't really see the benefit of moving, since getting to the coast in one move would mean settling on the cow or the sugar.

A settler factory is always nice, should that be our pri?
Commerce suits us nicely!
Beware of the neighbours though...agressive ones I am sure.
Get Iron..... soon. :)
Get that dingy out to meet up.

:drool: And here we go. :bounce:

Looks like settling in place, worker to the cow, citizen works the cow.
Irrigating the cow first gets it ready with 12 food in the bin, so growth optimized for turn 5. But then we should road it to gain commerce.
1st warrior would be ready in turn 4. 2nd in turn 7.

Anybody like to do the spread sheet? :hmm:

I think a settler factory should be our priority. I'm not sure what spreadsheet you're talking about - so I can't volunteer for that.

If we make two warriors first do they both go exploring? What about our research - what's first? DO we need a granary for a settler factory?

Can anyone make a map with our starting position so we can run simulations? (I've made neither maps nor spreadsheets. :( )

Decisions to make:

Settle in place or move coastal?
First research?
First build?
First worker move and action?

we are on emperor, right? so only 1 content.

I think settling in place makes sense - moving coastal puts us either on the cow or the sugar, or takes 2 turns.

move worker to cow and irrigate, then road.

First research: with a granary, we can get a 4 turn settler factory. We can easily get it - 2 BG's and a sugar on plains makes 8 shields at size 5 (cow, FP, 2 BG, sugar) and 6 at 4 - and that will help a lot with expansion - and one of our advantages is that we have less corruption.

However, we can get an 8 turn settler factory easily, without a granary, and make an all out play for the slingshot.

what will our opponents do?

Iroquois: either writing or the wheel. My guess is the wheel.
Celts: BW-> IW? Or mysticism and drive to monarchy? Don't know.. my guess is a drive to monarchy - they are the only religious civ in the game, so will easily get monopolies on good techs.
Ottomans: IW? Pottery?
Sumeria: IW? hmm...

First build is obviously a warrior.

I am thinking writing is our first research. with 3 agri civs, pottery will be cheap later, and we are going to pop out at least 1 settler before a granary, anyway.

Settle in place.

Writing gives curraghs, right? (hint, hint!)

We have the ability to build curraghs now - they come with alphabet. not sure how alphabet has anything to do with boats, but there you go...

No need to go for the beach, warriors are more important than curraghs (with Alpha btw), remember they make just two tiles for non-seafaring civs.

Against AI oponents I'd go for Pottery first, but the pbem-experienced players might convince me of Writing. I'd think in Multiplayer Pottery is rated higher (especially if you know your trading partner desperately needs it) and it is THE crucial tech for early expansion. If we don't meet a rival in time or that rival is mean, we are dust early. :old:
So I'd say: Pottery first. Then Writing - by then we should have met others to do further planning.

My spread-sheet tells me we would need Pottery by turn 23 - easy to research, tough to trade for in time.
This spread sheet I got here at work is not the one I'm used to - at home I can do better calculations if nobody else is faster. :hmm:

My plan (turns in brackets):
warrior(4)-warrior(7)-worker (10, on growth to 3)- granary(23) - workers / settlers

I don't think we should seriously consider settling on the sugar or the cow (not that anyone was really suggesting that)

If we were going to move at all, I agree with Aigburth that 1 North is the only reasonable move. Even then, before we moved there, we'd want to send our worker that direction, just to take a peek at what resources might be available there.
However, once you factor in the delay we'd suffer by not being able to work the cow till after the cultural expansion, it's hard to imagine that it'd be worthwhile to move north. The early game is so critical.

Bottom line: My vote is to settle in place.

As for the research path – we're already going to be in a bit of a hole when it comes to expansion… 3 of our 4 opponents are Agricultural, and the 4th (the Ottomans) are industrious, giving them a boost to early development also.
If we delay too long on pottery, it may be a very long time before we can dig out of our settler-producing deficit.

Bottom line: My vote would be pottery, then writing.

I also like Paul#42's build plan quite a lot! :thumbsup:

Seems we got the game already!

I would definitely argue for settling in place, none of the alternatives are the least bit tempting. Getting the extra 1st-tier town by moving 1N is the only real pro we're giving up on, but the price would be too high IMO.

With no MP experience, I like Paul would argue Pottery first. An 8-turn factory is no substitute for a 4-turner, and the faster we get it up and running the better. Paul's build sequence looks like what I would have proposed too (haven't checked the numbers though).

I agree with Pottery first, at 100%.

I also agree with settling in place. A curragh would have been nice, but is not worth the walk.

I have attached a test start if you want to try out some opening plays. My attempt sofar (f = food surplus produced/in bin/needed, s= shields produced/in bin/needed, c = commerce produced/in bin/needed):

turn 0: settle in place. Emphasize production on. Research pottery at 100%. [citizen on the] cow. w[orker to the] cow. f 3/0/20, s 2/0/10, c 4/0/60.
turn 1: cow. w I (i.e., worker irrigates). f 3/3/20, s 2/2/10, c 4/4/60.
turn 2: cow. f 3/6/20, s 2/4/10, c 4/8/60.
turn 3: cow. f 3/9/20, s 2/6/10, c 4/12/60.
turn 4: cow. f 4/12/20, s 2/8/10, c 4/16/60.
turn 5: warrior done (MP), build warrior. cow. w R. f 4/16/20, s 2(+2)/0/10, c 4/20/60.
turn 6: cow, sugar. f 4/0/20, s 3/4/10, c 5/24/60.
turn 7: cow, sugar. f 4/4/20, s 3/7/10, c 5/29/60.
turn 8: warrior done (expl), build rax. cow, sugar. w to sugar. f 4/8/20, s 3/0/40, c 6/35/60.
turn 9: cow, sugar. w M. f 4/12/20, s 3/3/40, c 6/41/60.
turn 10: culture expansion. cow, river sugar. f 4/16/20, s 3(+2)/6/40, c 7/47/60.
turn 11: lux 10%, sci 70%. cow, river sugar, sugar. f 4/0/20, s 4/11/40, c 7(=6 sci+1 tax)/54/60.
turn 12: pott -> writing. switch build to granary. sci 90%. cow, river sugar, sugar. f 4/4/20, s 4/15/60, c 7/0/240.
turn 13: cow, river sugar, sugar. f 4/8/20, s 4/19/60, c 7/7/240.
turn 14: cow, river sugar, sugar. f 4/12/20, s 5/23/60, c 7/14/240.
turn 15: cow, river sugar, sugar. w R. f 4/16/20, s 5(+2)/28/60, c 7/21/240.
turn 16: lux 20%. cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg. f 4/0/20, s 6/35/60, c 7/28/240.
turn 17: cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg. f 4/4/20, s 6/41/60, c 8/35/240.
turn 18: cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg. w to FP. f 4/8/20, s 6/47/60, c 8/43/240.
turn 19: cow, river sugar, sugar, river forest. w I. f 3/12/20, s 7/53/60, c 8/51/240.
turn 20: granary -> spear. cow, river sugar, sugar, river forest. f 3/15/20, s 7/0/20, c 8/59/240.
turn 21: cow, river sugar, sugar, river forest. f 3/18/20, s 7(+1)/7/20, c 8/67/240.
turn 22: lux 30%. cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg, fp. f 5/10/20, s 6/15/20, c 8/75/240.
turn 23: spear (MP) -> settler. lux 20%, sci 80%. cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg, fp. w R. f 5/15/20, s 6(+2)/0/30, c 9/83/240.
turn 24: cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg, fp, lake. f 5/10/20, s 6/8/30, c 10/92/240.
turn 25: cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg, fp, lake. f 5/15/20, s 6(+3 [growing to city size])/14/30, c 13/102/240.
turn 26: lux 30%. cow, river sugar, sugar, river bg, fp, lake, river grass. w to bg. f 5/10/40, s 7/23/30, c 11/113/240.
turn 27: first settler built.

I am not very happy with this scheme yet, the first settler takes a bit too long IMO, and Seoul grows too big.

:wow:, I did not fog-gaze the sugar on the river yet! In that case we indeed don't need the worker before the granary.

Defintely we should settle on the spot. N is even worse than on the cow, all those river crossings would kill us. :mischief:

I'll crunch some numbers, be back in a minute... :mischief:

edit:
I'm back, it was slightly longer then a minute :blush:

Right now I favor the worker-before-granary-approach. We get the first settler two(?) turns later but more commerce and better improved land.
I'm still looking for a single shield to complete the granary on turn 23 (edit) :blush: but I sure will find it... :hmm:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/52381/council_start.JPG



I attached the Excel spread sheet, IIRC it was designed by AlanH, sorry if I'm wrong about that.
edit: Thanks to Offa for providing the civ-community with such a nice tool. :goodjob:

We've got 48 hours (from the time of the post in the turn tracker thread) to play our turn. That's about 42 hours from this post so we can relax, breathe and make our plans.
If we settle in place and move our worker to the cow our turn player still needs to know (my current guess):

A) The name of our capital city (The Chamber)
B) Which tile to work (the cow)
C) Which tech to research (pottery or writing)
D) What the slider should be set at (100% science)
E) Not mandatory but a name for our worker (zyxy is our most senior member according to the sign up thread)

Finally, we need to be clear on what screenies we want.

Have I forgotten anything for this first turn? Once we agree on these things we can play and send.

A) The name of our capital city (The Chamber)
B) Which tile to work (the cow)
C) Which tech to research (pottery or writing)
D) What the slider should be set at (100% science)
E) Not mandatory but a name for our worker (zyxy is our most senior member according to the sign up thread)


A) The Chamber
B) Irrigate the Cow
C) Pottery
D) 100% Sci
E) zyxy
F) City work on building a warrior

:thumbsup:

I'd like to see screenshot of at least the city screen, world map, and the F-11 screen - set the benchmarks for future reference and record everything for posterity's sake :D

Pottery ok. 100 % ok.
Settle in place ok.
Work the cow, ok.
Are we sure about two warriors before the granary/worker?

The spread sheet is designed by Offa. And we can easily get that extra shield by mining the BG before roading it. Sheet looks good. :thumbsup:

As to donsig's questions, your own answers look good and it should IMO be Pottery, at least if we wish to go after this spread sheet.

I'd also like to see a screen shot of the world after the worker moves to the cow if the player thinks there is anything there that might change peoples minds about whether to settle in place (like 3 silks in forest that would be *just* outside our fat cross)

and I'm fine with pottery, too.

I'd also like to see a screen shot of the world after the worker moves to the cow if the player thinks there is anything there that might change peoples minds about whether to settle in place (like 3 silks in forest that would be *just* outside our fat cross)

Then we'd need to move that worker soon and take a look. Back in the first game I would open the save (and sometimes made a move or two) and take screenies when we got the save. Then when I played the save I would make those same moves before doing anything elese. I could also just fire up the game at home, move the worker, post a screenie and leave the game running while we decide on the rest of our move. Seems like a waste of electricity though.

Actually, thinking about it again, I'm not sure I can think of anything that would cause us to want to move. Maybe 2 cows that can be reached by a move north? seems unlikely ;)

A screenie after the worker move would be nice.
The placement of the first city is, uhm... well, important.

Not that I expect any major lures in the fog.

Are we sure about two warriors before the granary/worker?

It's a trade-off - we won't gain much if we don't build the second warrior, the granary is built at the same size as with one warrior - but two turns earlier resulting in 2g extra upkeep without gain. The second warrior we would also want for exploration or MP (to lower luxury -> raise commerce).
As we already found out, our town will grow too big during granary build phase - we should try to keep lux <50%.

The worker delays the granary by 1-2 turns, growth by 2. But he provides roads (commerce) and the floodplain in time. Only drawback is the 1g upkeep we have to pay for the settler (unit #5) while he is on his way - but with a road network that should just take 2-3 turns.

A screenie after the worker move would be nice.
The placement of the first city is, uhm... well, important.

Not that I expect any major lures in the fog.

Well, should we move the worker to the cow and post the screenshot? Once we move the worker there, he's there even if we decide to move the settler. If we don't do a pre-screenie what should the DP look for once the worker moves? What could there be in the fog to cause the DP to stop and post a screenie for the Council to reconsider the decision to settle in place?

That spreadsheet is great. Can we add a column for adjusting the lux rate? I tried using the spreadsheet on the test map and of course Seoul rioted cause I moved the warrior out to simulate exploring. The spreadsheet can be a great instruction sheet for the DP, but like I said we need a lux rate reminder.

What about naming the worker? zyxy that's your call.

Anyone heard from fe?

@donsig: You posted 7xxx posts here and did not know Offa's spread sheet!??! :eek: There are many unknown areas (or areas of the unknowing :D ) in civilvania... :crazyeye:

However that spread sheet is just a planning tool. We will have to watch commerce and luxuries on our own, the chance of making mistakes would be much to high otherwise. And: A fool with a tool is still a fool. :D

Note: Even the Science column is not automated, I put the values there manually - just till turn 20 or so. Corresponding reliable they are... :rolleyes:
and: change "sea" to "lake" please. Old German mistake, that. :blush:

Don't rely too much on that plan but validate it every single turn against the "reality" :old:

I'd also be very surprised to find our worker discovering something that would change our plan for turn 0. I'd like to approximate its chance to 0.0001%. I trust you to stop in such a case and wait for our input. In all other 100% (rounded) cases I would just:

0. (optional) check F7, F8, F11 to discover cheats early on - and see if our first rival settled in place. ;)
1. rename, move the worker,
2. settle in place, name the town,
3. work the cow,
4. set science to 100%,
5. set research to pottery and
6. post screenshot and save.

yup - if you see something when you move the worker that may change your mind that would cause a reason to move,then post something. But it would have to be more compelling than i can think of...

Forgive me for asking something that I could look up (if I took the time ;)), but who is our Turnplayer?

I presume DP refers to the turnplayer, right?

there were 2 nominations, myself and donsig - I said I was happy to let donsig be the first, and no one said anything else, so I am assuming it is donsig.

It was my understanding that it was donsig also... but it's getting kinda late! AutoTeller - if you've got the chance, I personally would like to see you just go ahead and play this first save.

The other teams must be dying with anticipation!

:salute:

If donsig has not said he will take it by the time I get home, I will take it (probably around 7 or 8 pm Eastern)

I thought we had 48 hours, no? At least that's what donsig said a few posts back.

EDIT: 48 it is, GA's first post in this thread says as much. So no rush.

I get to name the first worker? Well, he will be called zyxy of course! I am looking forward to irrigating that cow already ;)...

Paul's spreadsheet looks good to me.

I presume DP refers to the turnplayer, right?

You are correct. IN the democracy games we call the turnplayer the Designated Player.

Well, I think we're all set with the first turn. Only thing that might upset the apple cart is something unusual after we move the worker to the cow. I'll fire up the game and post a screenie - I can leave the game up for about three hours before ending our turn.

I'll start a new thread and will post a link here.

I'm on aim (donsigw) is any one wants to chat about the turn.

EDIT: I'm back on aim - I was chatting with someone else and missed your invitation General!!!

Preturn information thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199869)

It has begun!

You all have a couple hours to veto settlig in place. I'll leave the game on and will finalize the turn around 10 pm eastern US time.

Played turns thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4943378#post4943378)

Okay, I've updated the spread sheet, I also added commerce till Writing (240?) in 2390 BC.
Worker moves after turn 23 depend on directions we want to settle.

Criticism and hints are always welcome :rolleyes:

And remember: No plan survives the enemy contact :old:

In case anything surprising appeared inside our city borders (Did not see any pictures yet :( ), I would revise that sheet.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/52381/startplan_Council.jpg

Settler first szenario
edit: I'm doing some simulation on a warrior-warrior-settler-granary sequence. We could get a settler in turn 15 right on growth to size 4.
I think the granary could be ready by turn 29 at size 4 (but again I have to optimize worker moves to find some missing shields ;) )
Just in case we find a site nearby which is even more appealing or our opponents are so close that we have to grab land or luxuries.

Paul#42, thanks for the spreadsheet, it looks very good to me! One little optimization: it is of course better to work the riverside sugar than the other one, so from the culture expansion until we road this other sugar tile we should work the riverside one.

In the settler first scenarion, perhaps a few more shields could be found by skipping the road on the bg and immediately move worker 1 to the riverside sugar after mining the bg? Or by working the bg from turn 14 onwards?

I would be surprised if we were close to another civ, but we'll see. Another good reason to do settler before granary would be an abundance of food rich lands near our capital.

Which brings up another question: do we use the first warrior for exploration and the second for MP/defense, or the other way around? And shall we explore near or far? My preference would be to explore with the first warrior, initially nearby to find 1 or 2 city spots, and let him travel farther from home after that.

:agree: top priority for our first warrior is to scout the near-by land for settling our Core. We're going to expand slower than our rivals, so it needs to be a top quality expansion! :goodjob:

After the immediate vicinity is nailed down, then he can go looking for trouble.

My 2 cents!

I would not be against using both our warriors for scouting initially. The second should scout close to home to be able to get back if barbies show up. We should still be able to make Pottery in good time with a slightly higher lux rate, no?

Two scouts is fine with me, but one of them should remain close to the capital, against barbs and rivals. We will easily get pottery in time.

Odd... the city screen for turn 5 (in Donsigs counting, i.e., starting at 1) shows we already received the benefit of the irrigation, one turn before we would have received it were this a SP game.

IIRC MP games have peculiarities like this. I wonder what else we find...

Anyway, this probably means that we can further optimize our spreadsheet. Paul, could you do that?

@Donsig: nothing changes for the next few turns. When the town grows, we start working the cow and the riverside sugar. After roading the cow, we mine the bg. And please don't forget to change the lux slider :).

@Donsig: ...And please don't forget to change the lux slider :).

That will be the important thing to remember! Since I'm taking screenshots every turn I should notice the :( and correct it. I was a bit :confused: about the amount of food we had, too. There seemed no way to take advantage of it last turn through micromanagement. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Should we start a "Turn Instructions" thread where things like "put citizen on cow" are posted?

That could make it easier for the turnplayer to locate the necessary instructions for each turn.

I'm just a little nervous that something important - Check the Lux slider, for example - could get lost if only posted in a discussion thread.

Odd... the city screen for turn 5 (in Donsigs counting, i.e., starting at 1) shows we already received the benefit of the irrigation, one turn before we would have received it were this a SP game.

IIRC MP games have peculiarities like this. I wonder what else we find...

Anyway, this probably means that we can further optimize our spreadsheet. Paul, could you do that?

:eek:
Well for this first growth we could not have changed anything, roading first would find us one food short in turn 7 (turn 6 in my spread sheet)...

It does not occur to me that there are chances to profit from that and I'm not sure if I already understood that completely. :ack:
But I can look up the rules and re-check the plan...

Can anybody confirm, this effect works for Food, shields and commerce? :hmm:

But we still can't travel the roads a turn before they are built, can we? :confused: :rolleyes:

I was perusing the general discussions forum, and found this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201727

in it, I found this paragraph:


Agreed that catapults don't have promotions - but Hwach'a do. I'm just playing Korea for the first time myself and was surprised to find that Hwach'a have regular/veteran/elite status and so far i've got 2 MGL's from them. It's quite a handy bonus because you don't lose any (unless you get careless). However because I initially started building them in towns without barracks they started as regulars so it was a while before they reached elite level.


How cool is this? we can get MGL's from our Hwach'a!! Won't that be a nasty surprise for our foes... turn a stack of cannon/cav into armies, before even attacking!

ooooh. Nice! That's great! :D

Makes them a bit more useful... can get the MGL without seriously risking an elite unit! :thumbsup:

Excellent find A.T. - very useful to know.

:eek:
Well for this first growth we could not have changed anything, roading first would find us one food short in turn 7 (turn 6 in my spread sheet)...

True.

It does not occur to me that there are chances to profit from that and I'm not sure if I already understood that completely. :ack:
But I can look up the rules and re-check the plan... It may be that we gain benefits from all improvements one turn early. I.e., it seems our worker's actions finish just before our turn comes up (instead of after the turn), and before food etc are calculated. (The worker is then frozen for one turn.) This would mean we could at least gain shields (calculated after food) and possibly also commerce (calculated before food, but perhaps still after the worker action).

Can anybody confirm, this effect works for Food, shields and commerce? :hmm:

But we still can't travel the roads a turn before they are built, can we? :confused: :rolleyes:

I could run a test, but not before the weekend probably. And I think that, yes, we can travel the roads one turn before they are complete, just as we can use the irrigation one turn early.

You guys are really getting beyond my comprehension when you start talking about travelling roads before they are built.

Not sure how may people noticed but Donsig was able to move the lux slider down to 10% last turn due to the extra commerce from the road, this was a turn early meaning we also get the gold early!

very cool!!