Hello Team SABER,

Here is a screenshot of your starting location. Please note the following things:

There is y-wrapping. That means units can move from the bottom of the screen and appear at the top.

The screenshot is at 4050 BC because when creating PBEM saves, you must use the first turn to assign passwords. Creating this turn before 4000 BC was made so that the game does indeed start at 4000 BC.

You have 48 hours to play this first save.

Please post in the Turn Tracker in the main forum when sent.

You are to send all saves to Team FREE (all team emails are in the Team Info thread in the main forum).

So, good luck, and don't forget to have fun! :)

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1424/ottomansoy3.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ottomansoy3.jpg)

Looks like an interesting start. Here are my suggestions for turn 1:

-settle in place
-send worker to work cow
-start building a warrior in Baldric

Thanks, Ginger Ale! Quick question for anyone who knows... is that cow on bonus grassland?

I agree with greekguy. Just make sure we start research on our chosen Tech.

Thanks, Ginger Ale! Quick question for anyone who knows... is that cow on bonus grassland?

No, it's not.

GA is correct. That is not a bonus grassland. It seems the mod that RM is using places the food/shield count beside a resource (maybe it's a second mod). Here's a closer look -

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/14268/ADJ_MTDG_SM.jpg

PS - I concur with greekguy.

Ther also appears to another bonus resource to the south-south west of our starting point and we also got some nice flood plains.

I agree - there are not a lot of choices for turn 1. There is no reason to move the settler. The worker definitely should improve the cow first so he should move there. The cow dominates all tiles in our immediate 9, so the citizen must work the cow. And since we will be at 2 spt, there is no reason to build wealth first - so setting to warrior makes sense, and we can always change it if something appears later...

Thinking ahead a little bit - we have an easy 4-turn settler factory from what we already see. I believe that is a flood plains wheat to the S-SW of our settler - if it is, then we have a 4-turn warrior plus settler factory available.

Questions we have to think about:

1. To barracks or not to barracks? Assuming we have a warrior + settler factory running, do we build a barracks to make all those warriors veterans? My inclination is no - building a barracks will delay our settlers too long, and our primary military will be mounted so most of our warriors are destined for disbanding after they serve their purpose as MP and explorers. I don't see us upgrading that many to swords.

2. Which came first - the settler or the granary? If that is indeed a flood plains wheat, I would like to see a settler first to get a second town to pump workers ASAP. This unfortunately has to be decided fairly quickly because if we want a granary first, then we need to research Pottery; if we are going settler first, then we could consider the Warrior Code first gambit, but it will depend on base tech costs for this map.

3. How many warriors can dance on the head of a pin? Little poetic licence there - what I mean is how many warriors do we build before our first settler/start the granary. Personally, I am comfortable with just one, but I don't know if everyone feels as good about that sort of aggressive play.

We definitely need to build a warrior at the start but my leaning would be that we build a settler afterwards so that we can get our second city up and running and then we we go for a Granary. In any case we go for Pottery as the first tech and then we decide afterwards.

I'm guessing that's a sugar resource S-SW of the Settler, not wheat. I personally would build a Settler. I take this chance all the time with a Cattle start. Then I let the second city build the first warrior (and second). I say just build Settlers in Baldric until we find a second Settler factory.

GA is correct. That is not a bonus grassland. It seems the mod that RM is using places the food/shield count beside a resource (maybe it's a second mod). Here's a closer look -

PS - I concur with greekguy.

Those are my screenshots, thus my graphics mods as well. The first one that shows the food/shield count of a tile is just an option that you can turn on in your Preferences (labeled "Show Food/Shields on Tile" or something). The second is the resource one that shows the food/shield/gold of each resource.

The whole reason I know it's not a bonus resource is because I looked it up in the editor file of the map, so no need to try and deduce it from the screenshot!

Interesting.

My thoughts for the night:

1 - I believe that's a sugar bonus, not a wheat. It is too green to be a wheat.

2 - I'm disappointed by the mountain to the N-NW. That is the only reason I see that we may want to consider moving SW. We would still have the floods (after our first expansion which wouldn't matter since we'll work the cow first).

3 - I will draw up a spreadsheet tomorrow - unless Chamnix beats me to it - morning to determine the optimal build order for Baldric.

1 - Based on Ginger_Ale's explanation, I agree that that is sugar, not wheat since it apparently gives one extra commerce and one extra food. In a computer generated map, that would be plains then instead of flood plains. Hopefully, either that is an abnormal flood plains sugar, or there is another food bonus just out of sight, or different teams have different starts this game - if none of those is true, then I think the best we can do is a 4-turn settler factory while the agricultural civs can do a 4-turn warrior + settler factory, and we will be in a world of hurt before the game even gets going.

2 - I don't think the mountain is a good enough reason to move. We would be wasting a turn and settling on a BG, and the mountain is not bad long term - once we are out of despotism our capital will have an excess of food and the production from the mountain will be very welcom.

3 - Go for it :). I thought about doing something, but I think our first move is obvious enough, and I won't be doing much until we see our entire fat cross in case there are more goodies.

Incidentally, I think Warrior Code first should be considered. If the Base Cost for techs is 30 again, then we should be able to do Warrior Code and Pottery within about 28 turns (or maybe less). Delaying Pottery until we have a contact could save us some gold.

Unfortunately, we can't see enough to plan for sure. Personally, I would like us to decide to settle in place. When we get the save, someone should post a screenie of our fat cross, then we can decide Warrior Code vs. Pottery.

x and y wrapping is on?
That should make an interesting game.

Our fat cross has got as far as I can see: 1 cow grassland, 1 mountain, 3 grassland forests, 3 bonus grasslands, 1 normal grassland, 1 hill, 2 flood plains, 1 plain, 7 unknown squares, one of them containing a resource?

So how are we going to improve these squares? Roads of course, but will we mine or irrigate?

With my own civIII days long gone, I'll just ask questions here:

1. Is it possible to figure out how much land area (and sea area?) there is on this map, so we can guess how close we are to the other teams. This might be important to decide if we want to go on a military route early on, or not.

2. We can't settle the settler, save the game, go back to the forums and then decide on tech, can we? So we could try to have a chat/let CH post a screenshot while playing.

3. Won't those floodplains kill our citizens? It has been a while since a last played, but I remember being annoyed by citizens being killed almost every other turn in a city filled with floodplains.

4. I see quite a lot of forest around, should we chop them for extra hammers? If so, when?

1: I don't think you can do that legally. There are tools to do that, but they are (hopefully) banned. It's up to the admins to decide whether that information is yours to have or not.

2: You cannot. In a PBEM saving a game means you cannot load it and continue where you left off. What you can do is take a screenshot, leave the save open and discuss the situation and once decided play on. That means leaving the PC powered up and Civ loaded till the turn is played.

3: Floodplains (as well as jungle) can give disease.

4: not my task to answer :)

Rik is right that we cannot save midturn, but I would like to think that it would be legal to decide where we are settling, settle, post a screenshot, and then remake the move after the team has time to discuss it. Technically, it is reloading, but MIA did that (with admin approval) last game when we inspected KISS' cities, then talked about them before attacking. We could certainly accomplish the same thing if we have a turnplayer who can devote his computer to running civ in the background, but why make him do that? It is RegentMan's/Ginger_Ale's call though...

Floodplains can give disease, but it is generally not that common. If it happens, it sucks, but we will have to work the flood plains sometimes to get 5 fpt from what we can see.

We can chop the forests whenever it is convenient, and the shields are most useful. We may want to leave at least one forest standing to give the governor a place to put the extra citizen on growth, but the others can come down whenever it is advantageous.

As far as mining/irrigating, there are not a lot of choices in despotism. The cow should be irrigated. Grassland without resources must be mined. Flood plains can only be irrigated. Mainly we have to come up with the most efficient order to do things in, but that is tough until we see the other tiles our capital will have available.

1: I don't think you can do that legally. There are tools to do that, but they are (hopefully) banned. It's up to the admins to decide whether that information is yours to have or not.

Can't you see how much % of the domination limit you've got after settling? That way you could work it out right?

Sure, that's fine. It won't be 100% accurate, but it will be a rough estimate.

I just sent a PM to RegentMan and Ginger_Ale:

Hi guys,

I think SABER has agreed to settle in place, but we are still undecided on tech path, and in part it will depend on the unseen tiles that will be revealed upon settling, and in part it will depend on the tech costs that won't be known until after settling.

I'm wondering if it would be OK for someone to build the city once we get the save, then post the relevant information so we can talk about it before classical_hero plays for real as long as he still settles in place.

Thanks!!

Chamnix

The response:

If you could have classical_hero keep the game running in the background, so he's not loading/saving the game, that would be best. Another team has asked about doing something like this and I instructed them to do this and it worked fine. Get back to us if you can't do this.

I hope this won't be a problem considering the geographic differences within our team.

Hmmm. Let's see...

Perth - Wednesday, 2:34pm
Amsterdam - Wednesday, 6:34am
Trenton - Wednesday,12:34am
Chicago - Tuesday,11:34pm
Los Angeles - Tuesday, 9:34pm

Oh, and btw, I'll withdraw my suggestions about the opening save. I've played a couple of long starts on Emperor, and although my initial growth pretty much matches what can be done with a granary in the Capital ( I chose a couple of great maps), my overall rating in each world is middle of the road at best.

I keep hearing this voice say that I will just be lurking for a while, so I'll just reitre to the corner quietly....

We're going to get the next save today/tomorrow.
I've got a holiday so I could easilly be online anywhere between 8.00 and 21.00 local time if I know in time. That's between 7.00 and 20.00 GMT. If Classical can post today when he'll wants to play, I'll check, and I'll probably be there. (Not that I'm that usefull though :p)

1. Is it possible to figure out how much land area (and sea area?) there is on this map, so we can guess how close we are to the other teams. This might be important to decide if we want to go on a military route early on, or not.

We can use mapstat/civassist right? That displays the domination limit in the territory view right?

We are allowed to use them, but I don't think they show the domination limit until you have a certain percentage of the map uncovered already.

I'm really starting to think that it is probably not that important for us to be able to play the first turn as a team unless something unexpected pops up. The worker should move to the cow first. Unless he sees something notable, then the settler can settle in place. If he does see something, then classical_hero can always post and ask opinions - I'm sure someone will be around.

For tech costs, the easiest thing to do is put the slider to 100% - we should be getting 4 bpt (3 from the center tile, 1 from the cow). Take a look at how long it takes to research The Wheel (base cost =4). However many turns the Wheel takes is the Cost Factor. As long as it is no more than 30, then we should be able to research Warrior Code first if that is what gbno1fan decides. If for some reason it takes longer (playing a standard map instead of small?), then he may want to consult about the decision.

2: You cannot. In a PBEM saving a game means you cannot load it and continue where you left off. What you can do is take a screenshot, leave the save open and discuss the situation and once decided play on. That means leaving the PC powered up and Civ loaded till the turn is played.



could you not download it play it take the screen shot, then just download it again?

Technically yes, assuming you played all moves and did all actions in the same order...however, we would prefer you to not do that, since that is playing the save twice. The method Rik described is the best way.

Hmmm. Let's see...

Perth - Wednesday, 2:34pm
Amsterdam - Wednesday, 6:34am
Trenton - Wednesday,12:34am
Chicago - Tuesday,11:34pm
Los Angeles - Tuesday, 9:34pm

But at that time I would be at work. But do not forget that we do not have to play the save for 48 hours, so I could open it ASAP and then get a screenshot here and wait for what is going to happen. I think that should solve any problems we might have.

But at that time I would be at work. But do not forget that we do not have to play the save for 48 hours, so I could open it ASAP and then get a screenshot here and wait for what is going to happen. I think that should solve any problems we might have.
Sorry, but I wasn't tryng to schedule any turn session, I was just posting the different time zone locations at the time I was making the post. I was posting the current times in the different cities.

As long as it is possible for classical_hero to leave civ running on his computer, then we don't have a problem. We just didn't know if that would be possible for you.

We have received the save, and I look forward to Classical Hero's posting of a screenshot when he has the chance.

Thank you, CH, for keeping your computer running for us (as long as that's possible).

I like settling in place, irrigate cow to start. What about the wheel for an early tech, although pottery sounds good at least 2 other teams start with that. That has to be a sugar to the sw, a sugar on plains is the same as a bg with an extra commerce.

Let's just try to keep Cyc's screenshot thread screenshots only.

We seem to be in the corner of the donut, some calculations done with paint:
The world is about 3.1 times as wide and 2,7 times as high as the initial zoom-out screenshot by Cyc.

I like settling in place, irrigate cow to start. What about the wheel for an early tech, although pottery sounds good at least 2 other teams start with that.

The problem with the Wheel first is that if we can't trade for Pottery, then it leaves us without a granary for too long. I agree the cow should definitely be worked first, but I believe we can road first, then irrigate - either way we grow to size 2 in 6 turns, so we might as well pick up the 3 extra beakers.

This is kind of dumb...

We can't open they save and discuss it after the Sultan has made the moves? What good is having the save if you can't look at it while the other teams have it? This must be a MTDG standard, but I don't see it's benfit. There must be some other way of stopping people from cheating....

The problem is Civ 3 multiplayer doesn't let you save mid-turn. Classical_Hero could settle the town and move the worker, then "save", but if you loaded that save, you would be asked for the password for Team FREE, and there is no way you could open it from SABER's point of view.

I think if you really wanted to see the "post-play" save, then I believe you are allowed to load the pre-play save, and exactly duplicate what classical_hero did. It is generally not even recommended to do that because if you don't duplicate his moves exactly, then you may get information that we are not entitled to.

Sorry, my man. That's still a dumb way of doing it. Suppose our Sultan in Term 5 says he (or she) followed the instructions, but didn't? There is no way to check any of their 25 moves (est. guess). This is beyond funny. We are held captive in our own game.

We only get to play this game for a couple of minutes, once every 4 to 5 days...

That is one reason that screenshots from the sultan are critical - we can use those to discuss our next move.

It is also why we elect our Sultans and hold them accountable for their actions. If we open the next turn and find a bunch of units in the wrong spot, we can question the Sultan.

Sorry, my man. That's still a dumb way of doing it. Suppose our Sultan in Term 5 says he (or she) followed the instructions, but didn't? There is no way to check any of their 25 moves (est. guess). This is beyond funny. We are held captive in our own game.

We only get to play this game for a couple of minutes, once every 4 to 5 days...

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you, but the Civ 3 game engine doesn't let you do anything else. As soon as the Sultan hits save, Civ 3 assumes SABER is done, and it is FREE's turn. There is unfortunately nothing we can do about it.

The game should pick up in pace significantly so we will be playing more than once every 4 or 5 days. Also, once we meet other civs, there should be lots of diplomacy to discuss between turns.

Sorry, my man. That's still a dumb way of doing it. Suppose our Sultan in Term 5 says he (or she) followed the instructions, but didn't? There is no way to check any of their 25 moves (est. guess). This is beyond funny. We are held captive in our own game.

We only get to play this game for a couple of minutes, once every 4 to 5 days...
AS GB states, it is important that I do my job well. I will need to show every move that I make, even down to the citizens that I move so that people can get the exact result of my play. Generally there has been no problems whenever someone has played the save.

I'm not saying this is anyone's fault but Sid's. None of you could have been responsible for this bozo move, except someone from the Civ3 camp.