View Full Version : [IDEA} [Vanilla 1.61] little "v" vassals


GoodGame
Jan 02, 2007, 09:33 AM
Just a Single Player mod idea for us that aren't buying Warlords real soon :goodjob:

A vassalization victory, a holy empire, and councils.
I'd call this the "Little V" mod.

1. Vassalization Victory
----Basically a way to encourage the AI to surrender to you for a Domination victory without the tedium of erasing all their archer cities with your longbowmen and war elephants. The vassals have a nominal existence in the game, but their cities can be conquered. The player gains some minor benefits from the vassal in compensation for protecting the vassal. Rather than you getting their cities and land, they surrender their victory points to you. They no longer gain victory points or do research, and this vassalization is irreversible (they'll never revolt, but the game will be hardcoded so you can't attack them either) but they will still grow population, trade goods, and give you access to the strategic resources (iron, coal, aluminum,...)


Vassalization Effects:
The players gets a permament Open Borders agreement with the Vassal.

The player does not get direct use of the Vassals land (determined by culture borders).

The vassals slider bars will be set to 100% Gold, unless they knew Drama or Construction at the time of vassalization---in which case the sliders will be set to 80% Gold and 20% Culture (to support any possible theatres/coliseums)

Vassal's Wonders's effects are NOT transferred to the player. Same for National wonders (these won't even count). All Wonders's GPP will be reset to zero.
(This may be programming intensive--alternatively all Wonders will be 'razed' if that solution is easier to implement)


Vassal's population, :mad: (anger), and culture can still grow during the game. The vassal won't produce slider bar Culture, but cities's buildings, wonders, and religions will still produce their culture.
Potentially the vassal can steal tiles and from the player by culture; The vassal can never culture flip a player's city. If the vassal cultre flips another AI's city, than that city goes to the player, and not the vassal.
The vassal will produce food, and therefore grow population, including angry population; The vassal's cities will be set to City Govenor with emphasis on Gold coins, and Avoid Growth.
Vassals never feel unhappiness caused by war. They do feel it caused by Universal Suffrage in the neighborhood.


The vassal stops conducting diplomacy with everyone but the player; All previous deals are automatically canceled; No diplomatic reactions from those deal cancellations are transferred
(although a -1 modifier for something like "You refused to give us tribute" might be appropriate, though renamed to "You stole our supplier" :) )

The vassal will only trade luxuries (except ivory) that it has excess of, but it automatically gives all strategic resources to the player (e.g. iron, copper, elephants, horses, coal, etc..) including duplicates. Luxuries are traded in the diplomacy menu.

Any victory points the vassal acquired prior to vassalization are transferred to the player by some means to be decided.
(perhaps at a reduced rate? Or perhaps a fresh, one-time point assessment at the start of the vassalization is transferred to the player? Have to analyze cases of this to see which is the most fair, balanced way)

The vassals land percentages and pop percentages are transferred to the player for Domination victory scoring purposes, turn by turn.

Any techs they have get transferred to you; They stop producing research for the rest of the game.

The vassal retains most military units, which are then fortified in vassal cities but stops producing units. Nukes, Workers, naval craft, and non-fighter aircraft are gifted to the player that owns the vassal. Vassal's units will only defend in city for the rest of the game (never attack, not even to repel invaders), and no experience points/promotions will be awarded. Units that the vassal can afford will be disbanded proportionally (disbanding ones from the cities with the most units).

Trade routes between individual cities of the vassal and the player, or other AI, are not allowed.

Once Currency is attained, the vassal cities produce Wealth (the only thing that vassals will ever produce) which is transferred to the player's capital at a reduced rate (I'm thinking the player gets 50% of all vassal Wealth----so in effect, 1/4 of the hammers that the vassal produces each turn); This gift will happen every turn and is treated as one trade route.
(potentially it can be bumped for being to minor?)

The vassal doesn't produce anymore great people (all vassal cities's GPP are permamently set to zero) and can't run specialists; In the case of the Mercantilism civic and similar free specialist events, the vassal doesn't get any free specialists.
(At the start of vassalization, a fraction of the sum of all GPP earned in the vassal cities prior to vassalization is transfered to the player's capital, before the vassal's GPP's are permamently set to zero?)

Vassals adopt the civics of their owner, except Mercantilism is always replaced by Decentralization, and Vassalage and Theocracy/Organized Religion are downgraded to Hereditary Rule and Paganism.

Vassals can only be attacked by AI at war with the players (i.e. Vassal = the player for international diplomacy). Vassal cities can be captured at which point they lose vassal status (of course). If re-captured by the player, they do not regain vassal status, but treated as normal cities.
(This is potentially exploitable by the player---should be analyzed later).





Vassalization
Mechanics/Causation:

1. AI may be on Friendly terms with the player (meaning you probably have to share religions, be nice). Perhaps a criteria here is the "Holy Empire" post #2, with the vassalisation being automatic if HE is a member for say 50 turns, and still be on Friendly terms. This would be a partial Diplomatic victory in away, one civ at a time.

OR

2. Player may have forced enemy AI to request peace treaty to end it's player vs. AI war.
I suspect this should involve more detail---AI might have the same religion (or even be a "Holy Empire" member--see post #3). Or the AI might measure it's current unit type (e.g. archer, longbowmen) vs. that of the opponent, and also see if it has researched any better units that aren't in production; If the comparison is unfavorable, the AI might agree to be a vassal. And possibly, the player must be in the Vassalage civic to force the AI to agree to be a vassal?


CRITERIA?


Overall, this might be expanded to an AI vs AI action, and possibly even multiplayer.


Currently I have zero modding skills---so consider this a request if you would (though I may develop it here later).

NikNaks
Jan 02, 2007, 10:01 AM
Sorry, but requests and ideas go in the main C&C forum. ;)

GoodGame
Jan 02, 2007, 10:08 AM
2. Holy Empire:

Sort of a spin on the Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne.
This might be a criteria for 'friendly' vassalization also.
This would be a unique wonder that any player could build, one per religion.

At the least, it acts as an automatic UN-type Wonder, but there's really only three resolution, make Holy War, make peace with our brothers, Send Levy (gift units) to the the HRE---here after known as the HE (since every religion can have a Holy Empire).

Requirements:

Builder owns the GP-built (religion wonder) specific to their current religion.
Builder actually has to be converted to that religion (at least for the turn that the HE power is exercised).
Builder must then build the HE wonder and control it in one of his cities.
Builder must know either Theocracy or Divine Right prior to building the HE wonder
(note each religion may have a HE wonder, and one player may even have multiple HE wonders, but only one is in effect)
Builder must be actively in either, or both civics: Vassalage & Theocracy
(EDIT: Requiring both to be active would maybe balance this wonder against being too powerful, since the two civics are quite expensive warmonger civics).


Applies:
All other players with that same religion are then automatically subject (i.e. are HE member civs) to the HRE effects, until they convert to Free Religion civic, or some other religion.

HE Actions:
About every 10 turns the HE can make one proclamation, as UN-style option. One option is to Abstain (make no proclamation). Other proclamations:

Declare Holy War----All civs subject to the HE must declare war on the target (select a civ from menu).

Make Peace----------All civs subject to the HE must sign peace (or be at peace) with the target (select a civ from menu).

Send Levy-----------All civs subject to the HE must gift a unit, within 5 turns, to the HE. Note that the HE-owning civ doesn't have to have Open Borders with its member civs.

Send Tribute (for any HE member civ that knows Currency)---on the next turn the HE member receives a pop-up window every turn---"send 150 gold tribute to HE?" until that player complies. (AI will view this as a tribute demand).
Effects of not complying with a HE proclamation within 2 turns of the 10 turn proclamation cycle:
2 unhappiness in each religion-converted city of that HE-member
(while the civ's state religion is the HE religion)

HE-owner receives a one-time popup of the refusal on the 3rd turn from the proclamation turn (delayed in the case of the Send Levy proclamation to 6 turns). At that time HE can immediately declare Holy War on the refusing civ; This is the only time a Declare Holy War is allowed outside of the normal 10-turn proclamation cycle.




Note: A major exploit/strategy would be for a Spiritual civ to build multiple HE wonders and flip repeatedly to manipulate the politics of the game world (or to just raise a great levy). But any HE wars declared are annuled with each religious flip of the player. However, demanding impossible levies may be a good way to cause unhappiness in rivals's cities (e.g. by not having Open Borders).

Also, perhaps the Send Levy should be an automated request?

Thoughts on how AI should view this in diplomacy?
If the AI is the HE-owner, I think it should view proclamation refusals as a declaration of war (-4?).

If the AI is an HE-subject, I think the AI should automatically bump up to +7 in the We care for people of our Religion, even if not enough time has passed for this in the unmodded Vanilla.

If the AI is an HE-subject, I think it should view Send Levy and Send Tribute proclamations as Tribute Demands (-1 for arrogant demand)


EDIT: Probably also for a civ subject to the HE (by religion) to convert to another religion---the effect would be an immediate declaration of war against the HE-owning civ.

Also requests for the all the HE (including the HE-owner) to convert to the same Government/Religious civic might be added.

EDIT EDIT: And possibly to do: Facism and Communism variants of the Holy Empire wonder/Vassalisation win. Imagine a Big Man Facism wonder (world facist empire---Axis (of evil)? )), or a Socialist Council Republic wonder (world communist empire), or a Democratic Treaty Organization (NATO empire wonder). In these the 'religion' that binds would actually be the civic of the civ's involved, and perhaps like post #5 (below) a national wonder (attached to the civic's tech) would be involved to make civ's 'signatories' to the larger wonder.

National wonders: Facism's (Police State) national wonder might be a less powerful Mount Rushmore (but with free Drafts), called "Reich-land"; Communism's (State Property) might be a toned down blend of CIV3-esque KGB with Civ4 Kremlin "World Worker's Council"; and Democracy's (Universal Suffrage/Emancipation) might be the Democratic Treaty Organization (reduced hammer cost for all land/air/sea units).

GoodGame
Jan 02, 2007, 10:09 AM
I envisioned this as a mod component,

but if need be, MODERATOR, can you please move this to the main category?

GoodGame
Jan 02, 2007, 10:13 AM
3. Councils/Treaties (inter-civ collectivization by National Wonders)

A UN-style alternative to Vassalization, the UN, and a Holy Empire. These would be National wonders, which allow a UN-style interaction with other civs that have also built these national wonders.

Tech-dependent----all participants must have the same tech----Feudalism, Constitution, and/or Democracy

I see this as single player, and they might be fun in multiplayer (but council conventions should be space d out a lot cause of lag--maybe every 10 turns).

1. Feudalism's national wonder would be War Council (+2 culture and +2 promotions in the city where built). The basic wonder effects in parenthesis are always active. For all civs with this national wonder, and the Vassalage civic active, every 10 turns (and whenever a civ completes this national wonder), the council convenes. At that time, any civ can ask the council to declare a great war on one target civ (menu) (Edit: it can't be a member of the War council, unless that member declared war on any other member of the War council; When a member joins the council by building the national wonder, it automatically declares peace with all other members of the council, initially). A Declare War option is presented to each member civ.

Note there is no Council Secretary (unlike the UN)---this is a pluralist request, and all members can choose one target. Refusing the War Council's request to declare war, is an automatic act of war on all the members of the War council (but peace may be asked for normally on the next turn on a civ to civ basis) and the member civ that refused is barred from the council for 10 turns. Accepting the request leads to each member of the War Council requesting one city (and only one) of the target-----so if that city is conquered by the members of the War Council, it is transferred to the player that requested it. All civ's that except the target agree to 10 turns of war versus the target (no peace is possible before those 10 turns are over).
Note the War council never asks for peace as a whole, except from civ's newly joining the council, so watch out!
Aggressive AIs would favor building this wonder. All other AI lacking a current UU (either too late or not yet researched) would view joining the War Council as favorable (i.e. would build this Wonder and call on the Council for assistance). Other AIs would shun it (too expensive).

#2. At Nationalism/Constitution and Economics (both required) a Treaty Bureau national wonder (+2 culture, +2 trade routes in the city where it is built) would exist. <A civ in Mercantilism civic does not get the trade routes benefits of this wonder.> It is similar to the War Council, but would govern Treaties. Building it guarantees, automatically, Trade routes, without Open Borders agreements, to all other civs with this national wonder (Question: should civics in Mercantilism get normal trade routes this way at say a 50% penalty?).

Every 5 turns this council convenes, with the option being to Cancel Treaties (Embargo) versus target (a non Trade Bureau civ), and any member can request it (there is no leader). A second option is to Punish Trade Bureau member (against a civ with the Trade Bureau wonder, of course) for some gold cost (basically a fine, and the money paid just deleted )----this requires a unaminous vote of member civs, and again, any member can request it. Refusing an embargo declared by the Bureau would be to be barred from the from all of the trade route benefits of the Trade Bureau wonder for 10 turns.
All AI's would potentially build this.
How would AI's vote, and choose to penalize? This is a lot of leverage if for a civ to blockade a non-Trade Bureau member that it is at war with, so that's an obvious use. Perhaps the AI would use it whenever it felt "Annoyed" or probably just "Furious" against a civ.

#3. At Democracy, a Universal League (+50% culture in city that built it, +25% gold, civ builds UN at 1/2 cost when available) a prototype of UN is available. A civ only gets its benefits when at the Representation or Universal Suffrage (possibly Hereditary rule also) civic. Every 5 turns the league convenes. Similar to war council, but the options are only to Declare Peace with a target (menu), and any member can call for it (there is no secretary). Refusing to be at peace when the Leaque requests causes a loss of all the benefits of this wonder).
Aggressive AI's would shun this wonder, except perhaps the Incans (Financial). Creative, Organized, Spiritual and Financial AI's would tend to build it. It would get used in rather obvious self-defense by a civ unable to broker peace on their own. An AI might also use it if Furious/Annoyed at another civ that was at war with anyone (just spite).

#4 At Democracy+Scientific Method, the International Research Council (+50% culture, +%25 light bulbs in the city where it is built). All civs that build it can pool research on a tech (as like in multiplayer team mode). The catch: civs only pool research with civs that have voted the same way (and have a IRC). The counsel meets to decide / collect votes every 10 turns. In single player mode, a Pleased AI will tend to vote the same way as the player, and a Cautious AI will occasionally vote the same way as the player; Civs Cautious to Friendly (AI) to the UN Secretary will always vote the same way as the civ that is the UN Secretary (if the UN has been built) <I.e. they will always pool with the UN Secretary>. The vote results aren't known ahead of time, and changing to research what a pool is researching won't gain one access to the pool until the next vote.
Other requirements: Civ cannot be at war with ANY of the members of the IRC (i.e. It can not be at war with any civs that have the IRC national wonder built); If they are, it loses all the benefits of the IRC (including the city-specific ones).
Most AI's would build this, although an AGG civ might not always build it. If a test for "active warmongering" is possible, then such an AI wouldn't build this.

GoodGame
Jan 02, 2007, 11:07 AM
Any ideas on how such a mod(s) would effect game balance?

Vassalisation is kind of a cheap win, but with the Holy Empire wonders it can evolve to a new victory type, a kind of a diplomatic/domination hybrid win without a popular vote.
Is this is welcome/awful?

The nationalist wonder based Councils could give UN-menus ad nauseum but also give some incentive (the wonder benefits) for inter-civ cooperation (aggression/trade/peaceful building).
Like it/ Hate?


Any tips on how involved programming this mod(s) would be?