Following Kizor's question about civ-specific Apollo programs, I'd like to get everybody's thoughts on unique national wonders for each civ. The idea is to come up with new names for the generalized wonders for every civilization, e.g., America could have Harvard Univeristy instead of Oxford, the French would have the Sorbonne, etc. This would add a bit of flavor to the game without necessarily changing the functions of national wonders (though that could be done later).

Just brainstorming, I came up with a few ideas:

America
Forbidden Palace--Independence Hall
Heroic Epic--War Memorial
Hermitage--Smithsonian Institute
Oxford University--Harvard University
Scotland Yard--Central Intelligence Agency
Palace--U.S. Capitol (Yes, the palace is also a national wonder!)

France
Heroic Epic--Arc de Triomphe
Hermitage--The Louvre
Oxford University--Sorbonne
Scotland Yard--Interpol
West Point--Foreign Legion

Rome
Globe Theatre--Theatre of Pompey
Heroic Epic--Triumphal Arch
National Epic--The Aeneid
Hermitage--The Pantheon
Mt. Rushmore--Trajan's Column
Palace--Senate

So what do you think about this idea? Good? Bad? You're the one with the votes. ;)

EDIT: Sorry about the mistake in the first poll option. It should read Make (as in make brand-new wonders) or give each civ unique wonders (for existing national wonders), to include the option of making additional national wonder types beyond the 13 already in the game.

Following Kizor's question about civ-specific Apollo programs, I'd like to get everybody's thoughts on unique national wonders for each civ. The idea is to come up with new names for the generalized wonders for every civilization, e.g., America could have Harvard Univeristy instead of Oxford, the French would have the Sorbonne, etc. This would add a bit of flavor to the game without necessarily changing the functions of national wonders (though that could be done later).

Just brainstorming, I came up with a few ideas:

America
Forbidden Palace--Independence Hall
Heroic Epic--War Memorial
Hermitage--Smithsonian Institute
Oxford University--Harvard University
Scotland Yard--Central Intelligence Agency
Palace--U.S. Capitol (Yes, the palace is also a national wonder!)

France
Heroic Epic--Arc de Triomphe
Hermitage--The Louvre
Oxford University--Sorbonne
Scotland Yard--Interpol
West Point--Foreign Legion

Rome
Globe Theatre--Theatre of Pompey
Heroic Epic--Triumphal Arch
National Epic--The Aeneid
Hermitage--The Pantheon
Mt. Rushmore--Trajan's Column
Palace--Senate

So what do you think about this idea? Good? Bad? You're the one with the votes. ;)

EDIT: Sorry about the mistake in the first poll option. It should read "Make or give each civ unique wonders," which includes the option of making additional national wonder types beyond the 13 already in the game.

heh...in Total realism for warlords, we already have this national wonders:
[SIZE=2]France
Heroic Epic--Arc de Triomphe
Hermitage--The Louvre

[SIZE=2]German
Heroic Epic--Brandenburg
Hermitage--SemperOpera

:)

These art assets would be better used to create new wonders of the World with new effects (idealy by use of new code)

its pretty cool i guess i wouldnt mind seing Civ Culture specific buildings like asian culture, european, american etc
like asia could have forbidden palace while european has Versailles and America PYramids or something i relaly dont kno

heh...in Total realism for warlords, we already have this national wonders:
[SIZE=2]France
Heroic Epic--Arc de Triomphe
Hermitage--The Louvre

[SIZE=2]German
Heroic Epic--Brandenburg
Hermitage--SemperOpera

:)

Fair enough, but that's only two. The ultimate aim here would be to give unique names to all or most of the existing wonders, and possibly create new abilities for the unique ones. I would prefer to make this optional though because I like to create more flavor without making any real gameplay changes, which is a big part of Total Realism. I do like the diversity and uniqueness that is in your mod, though.

I have always been a fan of Unique National Wonders. However There are a few Civs you may be hard pressed to find a number of said National Wonders for. Specifically Mali, or Mongolia to name a few.

I'd prefer changing the names of the specific places (like Oxford University, or Mount Rushmore) to generic names (like Ironworks or National Epic). I think that's really more what the national wonders are supposed to be about. As it is, it looks like they made some underpowered world wonders and then just changed them to national wonders.

I have always been a fan of Unique National Wonders. However There are a few Civs you may be hard pressed to find a number of said National Wonders for. Specifically Mali, or Mongolia to name a few.

This is of course one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, though it's not insurmountable. We could get around this to some extent by a cultural rather than civ breakdown, but we'd lose some variety in the process. I had a similar problem while trying to find names for my great people mod--just how many Mongolian Great Scientists were out there anyway? But it's really not impossible, it just takes some hunting.

In the original Apollo thread someone suggested using general names like "Carthaginian University," but that kind of puts us back to the original problem. There is one solution: create a certain number of specific wonders per civ, say three or four, and they could be any of the national wonders.

Just throwing out ideas.

I'd prefer changing the names of the specific places (like Oxford University, or Mount Rushmore) to generic names (like Ironworks or National Epic).

I agree, it doesn't make all that much sense to mod the ironworks wonder and a few of the others, though I would like to see works like the Aeneid or Homer's Odyssey as epics.

I have always been a fan of Unique National Wonders. However There are a few Civs you may be hard pressed to find a number of said National Wonders for. Specifically Mali, or Mongolia to name a few.

I agree. I wanted to do Unique National Wonders for my mod project, but didn't for the very reason you mentioned.


As far as the game goes... I don't like how Mt. Rushmore is a World Wonder. It never made sense to me, really.

What about the Forbidden Palaceand Versailles?

In history they were used as Palaces, but firaxis used them as some sort of local government :confused:

It really depends on if you think Civ4 should attempt to follow real history or allow you to create your own. Firaxis is definitly in the "create your own" mindset and part of the charm of the design is that you can have the French found Hinduism and build the pyramids. In their mind each world created is an alternate storyline.

But building a game that more accuratly depicts history is just as viable, and may be more enjoyable to some players.

So I dont think there is a right or wrong answer to your question (should their be civ specific wonders), it just depends on what kind of game you want to make (and ultimatly play).

I'm always in favor of unique flavor units and buildings for civs. That is, the wonders could have Civ-specific names but their function remain the same.

Iagree with Dryhad - National Wonders should have generic names imo

and don't forget to main problem with unique buildings:
if unit need some building as prereq to built (like spy), you are in trouble, because in XML you can set only building type, not building class as prereq - in this case you need set ALL unique buildings as prereq (there is OR operator) - but you are limited in number. you can use TheLopez mod for more building prereq, but still limited with number (and this also look strange in civpedia - too much buildings as prereq). you can also create new unique unit which need this unique building (ie civ specific spy) 0 but in this case you will have too much units

and don't forget to main problem with unique buildings:
if unit need some building as prereq to built (like spy), you are in trouble, because in XML you can set only building type, not building class as prereq - in this case you need set ALL unique buildings as prereq (there is OR operator) - but you are limited in number. you can use TheLopez mod for more building prereq, but still limited with number (and this also look strange in civpedia - too much buildings as prereq). you can also create new unique unit which need this unique building (ie civ specific spy) 0 but in this case you will have too much units

Why?

If I rename 'Scotland Yard' into 'Intelligence Service' and add CIA and KGB as UB for the US and Russia, they could build Spies as in the vanilla game.

I've checked it - Mexico have right
<PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_SCOTLAND_YARD</PrereqBuilding>
not BUILDINGCLASS_SCOTLAND_YARD
it needs changes in python and/or sdk or adding more unique units

I've checked it - Mexico have right
<PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_SCOTLAND_YARD</PrereqBuilding>
not BUILDINGCLASS_SCOTLAND_YARD
it needs changes in python and/or sdk or adding more unique units

:eek:

True, but that's not a real problem:

Only spies depend on a NW. I think there are just a few Civs which deserve a UB for scotland yard.

:eek:

True, but that's not a real problem:

Only spies depend on a NW. I think there are just a few Civs which deserve a UB for scotland yard.

yes and no:
if you will have unique building (scotland yard) for each civ (18 or more), you need:
1. all 18 buildings as prereq for spy (impossible - game engine limit)
or 2. you need create 18 different spy unit (possible but this is non-systematic solution)
best solution:
3. update SDK to use Buildingclass instead of building type

also remember that if you want implement this in mod, where you can have other building-depend units (like assassin depend on castle etc..) you ecounter same problem again...

this does not mean that i don't like this - in our TR for Warlords we using same idea - it is just attention for possible problems

I don't think it's vital, but it'd be a good flavor mod to have civ-specific national wonders. To me, if the detail is that great though, it's a scenario focusing on a specific age---e.g. Age of Enlightment. Too much detail in what is mainly an abstract, 6000 year game is kind of anachronistic to me. Some rulesets focus on following historical accuracy (e.g. Rhye's), while other focus on the more abstract 'feel' of developing a fresh civ (like Vanilla); Both are valid to me, but it's hard to do both at the same time.
:) Heck, should the CIV's even start with names, or should they evolve their own with the Alphabet? :)

But back to the topic:

How about National Cathedrals then? Notre Dame would be changed to a national wonder (France).

How about national Great walls? Hadrian's wall for Rome; Manifest destiny for America; Maginot line (France); Atlantic Wall (Germany).

The French Palace would be Versailles. Would Rome's be the Senate (Senatorium?)? Germany's would be the Reichstag.

@ Kael:
I agree with you, there isn't really a right or wrong answer to this question. I just wanted to see if enough people were interested to justify making a mod. I must admit I have usually fallen in the realism category, though I do like to change the historical timeline a bit. I don't know; there comes a point when it just doesn't seem familiar anymore, though I suppose that's the intent behind the game. If the French found Taoism, build wonders like Angor Wat and the Great Wall, can it be said that they are really still French? Is being "French" an essential or accidental property? (Whoa, I'll leave that one for the "wise-men" of civ!) It could go either way. That's what makes it interesting, and that's one of the things that gives the game its replayability. But I don't know that giving everybody unique wonders necessarily takes away from that.

@ Exel:
I agree, and this is what I was originally thinking--just change the name, not the function. One further idea: even though it would be time-consuming, it would add an extra layer of flavor if each unique wonder had its own art.


There have been a lot of interesting ideas posted here. I must say I didn't even think about the spy and Scotland Yard issue, though that's certainly not a mod-killer. In the worst case scenario, we'd just have to leave it as is.

@ GoodGame:
One other thing--no numbers should appear in the game until you discover mathematics. ;) Actually, you raise an interesting point about the names. I've always wanted to see the civ names evolve over time, e.g. Babylon becomes Iraq by modernity, Rome becomes Italy, etc.

I've posted some ideas about unique national wonders in Kristopherb's bank of ideas.

Gaius, did you plan to continue on this?

I do, indeed. Several of us were discussing this in the RFC forum for implementation there. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=212365
I am still working on getting a good list for each civ, and preferably artwork too, but that's harder to come by. We still aren't sure whether it would be better to implement unique names/art only, or actually change the effects for each civ's NWs. It has lots of possibilities.

Just so I know if it is worth it to update my Ethnic Wonders mod or only my Diverse Citystyles mod. ;)

In case you didn't know, hrochland released some new stuff for the Incans and Vikings. :)

Wouldn't the White House work better for America's Palace?

Great Idea, BTW. I was just thinking that it would be cool if some things like the Jefferson Memorial, Washington Memorial, Lincoln Memorial, Capitol Hill, and the White House were included as buildings in Civ for America. Then the Arc de Triumph was the next thing to pop in my head once I realized you would have to do this with all the civs in the game. :goodjob:

Here's my Suggestion

Germany
Globe Theatre - Bayreuth Festspielhaus
Scotland Yard - Abwehr
West Point - Großer Generalstab

Russia
Forbidden Palace - Winter Palace
Heroic Epic - The Motherland Calls (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Mutter_Heimat.jpg)
West Point - Frunze Military Academy (its located in Central Asia, but it was a Russian school)
Globe Theatre - Bolshoi Theatre
Oxford University - Moscow State University (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Moskau_Uni.jpg)

Japan
Heroic Epic - Yasukuni Shrine
Palace - Kyoto Gosho
Forbidden City - Edo Castle

Thanks for the suggestions, Park. I'll have to wait until after BtS to implement this (finally!) because one of the new features is "custom art for each civ" so you can have civ-specific unit graphics without having to add them all individually in XML. I'm hoping a similar thing will work for buildings.

Thanks for the suggestions, Park. I'll have to wait until after BtS to implement this (finally!) because one of the new features is "custom art for each civ" so you can have civ-specific unit graphics without having to add them all individually in XML. I'm hoping a similar thing will work for buildings.

Yes, but in this case, you're looking to add new names along with them... so it would kind of require that they all have their own separate XMLs.

I hadn't seen this thread until now, so here's my two cents... I think civ-specific national wonders for all current national wonders is excessive, but civ-specific Forbidden Palaces seems like a good option... this is the one I plan to implement.