View Full Version : OSG 13 - Today is a Good Day to Die


dathon78
Jan 05, 2007, 09:47 AM
It was a pleasant, ordinary afternoon. A bright-eyed, intrepid gamer decided that a nice game of MoO would be the perfect way to spend it. Not wanting to be lazy, the valiant gamer chose to champion the cause of the perennially weak Mrrshan in their noble attempt to bring order to the galaxy. But not wanting to ruin the congenial atmosphere of the day, decided to limit the difficulty level to Hard.

However, the brave gamer was not the only one bored that fateful day.

For unbeknownst to him, the nefarious demons of the nation of Pseudo Random Numbers were also looking for relief from their ennui. And so as they cast their mischievous gaze on our hero, a cruel smile played across their lips. Into his game generator they slipped, to work their terrible curses.

Opponents were changed.
Planets moved.
Environments altered.

Until they sat back to watch with glee at the look of horror spreading across the gamer's face at what he saw before him. Our hero could almost hear their maniacal laughter echoing in his ears as his mouse hovered over the reload button.

But he hesitated.

A surge of righteous anger and determination swelled inside him. He would not be defeated by these minions of chance. No, he would gather a party of other brave adventurers and set out to conquer what the demons had produced. And he swore by the Guardian that one day, one day soon, the Mrrshan would triumph and the galaxy would bow before their mighty paws!!!

Alright, enough of that. :lol:

I apologize to those who's first language is not English, but the situation seemed to call for an over-flowering entrance.

So here is the starting situation:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/52773/osg13_start_map.JPG

We are up against probably the 5 hardest opponents in the game. The only planet in immediate range is size 90, but it's poor. Everything else is dead or worse, or 6 parsecs away. The red circle is Orion, and judging by the arrival of a scout at the Dead world, the Silicoids are at one of the two yellow circles. This is Hard difficulty instead of Impossible, but frankly I doubt that's enough to save us. But hey, one cannot attain great glory, without great risk
:hatsoff: :bowdown: :worship:

Even though we will, in all likelihood, be scraped off the boots of one of these opponents :lol:

No variant rules. We are going to need every trick, tactic, and ounce of cunning to pull ourselves out of this mess.

Roster is as follows:
dathon78
Stup
Zed
Olorin
Liq
IamI3rian (welcome!)

Standard play/post rules apply, but as we have a somewhat large roster at 6, please try to keep the game moving along so nobody gets bored. That goes double for me :spank:

Let the bloodbath commence!

dathon78
Jan 05, 2007, 10:12 AM
Ok, as usual, our situation hasn't changed too much after the first 20 turns. I've attached the latest pic of our situation. The three new planets are a small but rich tundra 5 parcsecs to the N, a size 90 jungle 6 parsec away in the SW corner, and size 75 ocean 6 parsecs to the SE. The toxic and radiated are both rich, and the Dead is a size 65.

Thrax, our poor world, is growing pop and researching; Fierias should come online at full capacity in 9 or so turns.

On the research front, I opened:
Construction: RW 80% (only choice)
Planetology: Controlled Barren (only choice - ouchie)
Propulsion: Range 4 (only choice)

Oh well, at least I can't be blamed for making poor tech decisions :lol: I set barren and propulsion equal prioirty with a one turn shot from Fierias at the beginning to boost the growth rate; they are both at about 2/3.

We need to :please: that Range 6 and Controlled Dead are both in our tree, or this is going to be rough. I would suggest that the next couple leaders consider a substantial LR fleet to guard our hostile worlds from Silicoid advancement. I chased a scout away from the Tundra, so I'm betting their homeworld is where the finger pointer is below, or at least in that cluster. There's undoubtedly a homeworld (or two) in that cluster in yellows in range of the ocean world, we'll want to protect that as well if we can.

Roster:
dathon --> played
Stup --> UP NOW
Zed --> on deck
Olorin
Liq
IamI3rian

Good luck! :thumbsup:

StuporMan
Jan 05, 2007, 01:25 PM
As Fieras gets maxed out I shift production from industry to research, we land Controlled Barren quite quickly at 19% (No beaker dropping this time!). In our tree was Controlled Dead and Death spores, I choose spores naturally, oh no wait I misclicked. I guess we will have to get controlled dead first now. Planetology set to Very High priority so we can get those spores faster, despite my blunder. ;)

We also get ranked as the 2rd most productive race behind Meklar, and just behind us are Silicoid then Klacks. Hmm, that is about right. We will drop from our spot shortly, however. At this point I also decide that Trax is not a very significant source of research, and so shift it to half and half between research and Pop to get it ready to push population when we can finally colonize again.

Silicoids report getting 6 systems in 2327. Ok so it took them 27 whole turns to reach the first breakpoint, so we should be in good shape. :eek:

A few turns later range 4 comes in (I really prioritized Dead colony). We have the choice of Nuke engines or Range 6. I misclick again so we are researching Range 6. I am really off my game after the break. ;) Priorities set back to even with Prop and Planet. We have a little light in the Planet bulb already now. I also design a LR Laser ship with 2 lasers and a BC 1, thanks to the propulsion tech. I start production of a few to guard our claims against our Rocky Neighbors. I plan on building 4, 2 for each Hostile planet near Silicoid Space.

Fleet rankings come out and we are not last, the honor goes to the Silicoids? Hmm, wonder what is going on here. Humans are ranked 1 which is a good indication they are boxed in. Klackon and Psilon follow after.

In 2337, Fieras maxes out factories at 99 pop (not to shabby timing). Trax is also at 89 pop and due to max out pop next turn. I change it from +1 pop a turn to +1 fact per turn and the rest to research.

We explore Anraq (Blue to our East) and Talas (Blue to our South), and they are Radiated 10, and Desert 50 respectively. I note at this point I neglected to send a LR las to the East (Doh!). I queue one up for next turn and send it to Exis (the Oceanic world to our east).

And so as my time as Emperor ends, I leave you with a sad heart and 2 more technologies. The future looks bright, as we are nearing breakthroughs in 2 scientific fields and have as of yet had no contact with another race in over 2 decades. May Emperor Zed lead us into a new age of prosperity!

Stuporman

dathon78
Jan 05, 2007, 02:28 PM
Looks good! Thank the kitten gods that those techs were there. I'm a little worried about the Silicoids surprise-poaching up North, since their usual escorts are large ships, but as long as that doesn't happen we should be in decent shape. Or, well, as decent as can be expected under the circumstances :rolleyes:

dathon

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 05, 2007, 04:20 PM
We seem to be doing as well as we could be. Range 4 was actually the best thing for the first rung of propulsion since it's the cheapest way to advance. And R6 being in the tree was very important. We could have gotten a little luckier with planetology if IT10 had been a choice, but Barren is cheap enough, and gets us to Dead soon.

I would suggest putting R6 as a higher priority than Dead and try to get that Ocean planet before someone else does. The rich Tundra would be great for the second colony ship if Dead comes in fast enough, since the Jungle 90 is safe for a little while in the corner.

If we can manage to take the Ocean, Tundra, Dead, Desert and Jungle that will all be in Range 6; that will give us a decent start of 6 planets. If we can also grab a few more planets in the South and East, we could be in decent shape.

Zed-F
Jan 07, 2007, 07:36 AM
Ok, got it.

Zed-F
Jan 07, 2007, 10:15 PM
Hm, didn't get to this today... perhaps tomorrow!

IamI3rian
Jan 08, 2007, 07:15 PM
Hey sorry guys, had a pretty heavy work load this week. Tried to get on yesterday, but my brother and some of our friends wanted to go out to the bar to watch the Giants game(:cry: ... so close)

Anyway, I grabbed the save to get a better idea what was going on. If we can only hold one of the two contested (?) planets, I hope we go for the ocean, to use as an outpost (at least) in the east. I figure there's a PRETTY good chance that those yellows a bit further east hold at least 2 AI's.

Based on the fleet strength of the humans, if they didn't get any range tech yet, and the red star was uncolonizable, they could be an OPE on the far eastern yellow. I'd almost bet on it.

In other news, the possibility of there being a runaway AI exists most perdominantly, in my eyes, in the north east. If only one of those two yellows up there is a homeworld, it really doesn't matter much if it's the klackons, meklars or the psilons. We're in a position to keep the 'coids in check, and (if I'm right) those two AI's to the east will keep themselves in check. If they're aggressive militarists, the humans might even enter the picture a bit later, to take a few worlds over there.

I'd say that it's not as bad a start as originally thought. We've got a pretty decent quadrant, and no AI's in it, to bother us. The only problem we're gonna have is expanding out of it.

Question: Is there an IRC channel where everyone hangs out?. If so I'd love to hear where...

Question2: : Says the four best races are out there, I was wondering which one was the outsider '5th (?) best'

IamI3rian
Jan 08, 2007, 11:14 PM
dual posts I see

dathon78
Jan 09, 2007, 08:08 AM
Question2: : Says the four best races are out there, I was wondering which one was the outsider '5th (?) best'

The answer is I can't count :lol: I would say that these are the FIVE toughest opponents out there. While this mistake is still in the post at RB, I changed it when I started this thread in the post.

dathon

P.S. Zed, do you need a skip?

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 09, 2007, 01:39 PM
Zed: I can take my turn tonight if you need a skip, or a swap.

dathon78
Jan 09, 2007, 03:45 PM
Olorin: It's 4 days since Stup posted. Go ahead and take the turns tonight even if we don't hear from Zed.

dathon

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 09, 2007, 10:49 PM
Still no word...I'll start working on this turn.

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 10, 2007, 12:42 AM
Pre-turn: I check over our potential colonies. We have a Dead at range 3, a Tundra rich at 5, a Jungle and Ocean at 6, and a Desert at 7 (Jungle will bring it in range).

Dead bases are much further along than range 6, so I will ignore my earlier post and go for the Dead first. That will be the only one I can get until range 6 comes in. Range 6 will allow me to send the next two colonies to the Ocean and the Tundra. I'll decide which order depending on how much alien activity is seen around them.

2340: I put the Poor world back on total research, and pump out another LR Las for the Ocean.

2341: Put everything I can into tech. I'd like a better defense fleet at the Ocean and Tundra, but I think it's better to try to get the tech pushed through and colonize them faster.

2342: Dead bases are at 1%. Silicoids arrive at Tundra, escorted by 4 mediums. Their colony ship flees. I have 2 LR Las's and a scout. They launch missiles, I duck behind an asteroid. Unfortunately they stay after their 2-rack is done. My first Las is at 2 HP from the missile and goes down after 2 rounds of heavy laser. I get him down to 1 ship but lose the battle.

Silicoids(Aggressive, Technologist) make contact from the Tundra. That means they have at least Range 5. They can reach both Trax and the Dead planet we are guarding. I set up a 50 BC trade agreement, but they are tight-fisted about their tech.

2343: I design a laser popgun to reinforce the Dead world.

2345: Silicoid colony ship spotted heading to Dead world. It is alone but will arrive before any popguns. Hopefully it is unarmed.

2346: Silicoids turn tail, but they'll be back with escorts. Dead up to 7%, Range 6 at 1%.

2349: Dead bases come in. Spores or Improved Eco, I take Eco, but put all tech spending over to Propulsion. Dead colony ship designed and started. 5 turns to build.

2352: Range 6 comes in. Nuclear, Sub-Light, or Range 7. I go with Sub-Lights. I rearrange priorities a bit. Trax puts half it's budget to building one Las per turn, the rest to tech. Fierias goes all out for the Colony, since we need several now. I keep the first colony ship as the dead base because the Silicoids have visited it once already. There has been no activity near the Ocean. I equal the tech spending to see what else is out there.

2353: ECM1: only choice; FF2: only choice; Gatling: only choice. I focus most of the research into RW80%. Silicoid fleet spotted going towards Dead world. 1 of the unarmed colonies with 2 mediums. This will be an easy win. We have 2 LR Las and 12 Las defending.

2354: Colony ship built and sent to Dead. Designed a standard colony ship which only costs 414 compared to the Dead at 636.

2356: Silicoid fleet turned away. The mediums didn't even stick around after firing their missiles. A scout found 4 Klackon popguns NE of the Ocean at the the small red star.

2357: Colony ship finished and sent to Ocean. 3 years until the Jungle Colony ship is ready.

2358: Rhilus founded. Pop sent from Trax. Scout reaches Yellow in nebula, finds Xengara, Arid Fertile 105. Silicoids have their 9th world 2 parsecs away. Xengara is very tempting, but it's really sticking our necks out. I decide to send one of the LR Las from Rhilus to see if I can delay the Silicoids from taking it, but it may be too late by the time it reaches it.

2360: Colony ship for the Jungle world arrives. We chase two Meklar unarmed colships off a no planets east of the Ocean. The Ocean will be colonized in 3 turns, Jungle in 6. I have Trax pumping eco to be ready to populate both of them. I've got a Dead Colony in the shipyard to use for the Barren down south, but it may not be in danger, and you might want to pump up our defense fleet for a few turns before sending out more colony ships.

Summary.
The battle at Paladia may well have been a turning point. A little better luck and we might have held onto a rich Tundra. Still, if we can keep Rhilus, the Silicoids will need more range to reach the two Ultra-riches near Fierias. Our scouts have seen both the Klacks and Meks east of the Ocean, but no colonies yet. There are some scouts coming in behind the colship to use in that direction. The Silicoids still haven't come to Xengara yet, our LR Las is 4T out. I doubt we can hold it, but maybe we can slow down the rockheads by forcing them to escort a colship there.

I don't know what to think at this point. Losing Paladia was a big blow. I wish we had a couple more ships there, but oh well. We're at 3 worlds now, with another 2 en route. Then there are a Desert and a Barren along the bottom edge that will be uncontested. We should be at 7 worlds by the end of the century, and we might get lucky and nab something else near the Ocean.

Having the Silicoids control 10 planets is both a good and a bad thing. The good part is that of our opponents, they are the weakest, and being Silicoids, many of their worlds are likely small hostiles. They are also a race that loses power with time due to their bad tech skills. I'd be much more worried if the Psilons or Klackons were in their position. The part I don't like is the Silicoid proximity to those two Ultra-riches. If they have range 6, they are already capable of reaching Simius.

Zed-F
Jan 10, 2007, 06:27 AM
Hey guys, sorry about that. got wrapped up in stuff over the last couple of days and haven't been able to get online much at all. The skip was the right call! :) I'll catch the game next time I'm up.

dathon78
Jan 10, 2007, 08:34 AM
Ouchie at losing the Tundra world :cry: Not only did we lose an equivalent size 50 production world, that puts us at a significant strategic disadvantage to the rocks.

We only had two ships there??? :nono: No way that was going to hold. We actually got lucky that the Rocks are using medium's; their usual MO is to send large's, which we would never be able to fend off at our current fleet levels. I usually assign 10 LR lasers to a planet I really want to keep. Yes it's a significant investment, but if you are going to make it, better to be sure that you have the planet.

Oh well, guess that's just one more planet we'll have to come back and take later :) Good luck Emperor Liq!

Roster:
dathon
Stup
Zed --> skipped
Olorin --> played
Liq --> UP NOW
Iam3Irian --> on deck (you mentioned that you were busy, let us know if you need a skip when your turn comes)

dathon

IamI3rian
Jan 10, 2007, 06:43 PM
I should definitely be able to take my turns. Saturday is the only day I'll be REALLY busy til next week, and I'm off sunday.

As for ten LR lasers, that seems a bit excessive as the cats. Besides, I think that if we did pump out enough to hold Paladia, we might not have arrived in time (and we still might not have) to hold onto the eastern ocean Exis. I REALLY think that Exis is the better planet to shoot for, as it might even get us contact with both the Klackons and the Meks.

Considering that we saw both the Meks and Klacks, I'm led to believe that the Psilons are the ones who are positioned in the north east, and, as usual, are the race to watch out for.

Xengara, the north eastern Nebula bound Fertile 105, ought to be the next target for colonizing, in my opinion. We'd need to keep the brains and the rocks from getting such a big planet. Does fertile increase the pop rate of the 'coids? If so we should REALLY try to get it, but I don't recall. At range 6, those lasers orbiting Rhilus could be diverted and replaced, to better hold it. That would still leave the LR laser there, to fend off rock scouts. The dead col in the shipyard could be built as a standard and arrive fairly soon, I figure.

Great turns Olorin. Good choice on sub-lights too :)

Good luck Emperor Liq!

p.s. Sucks not to have hand lasers in the tree. Cheap way to get closer to good missile tech, and a gropo advantage never hurts either.

Edit: I thought about it, and we should definitely consider placing a defensive fleet at Simius. That would give the 'coids not only a UR but they'd have access to all our other worlds. Olorin mentioned this, I just want to reiterate its importance.

Dathon: Are you SURE this isn't the setting 'No way in Hell'? It's just a hard game right?

Liquidated
Jan 11, 2007, 12:43 AM
a bit swamped so expect turns tomorrow.

man can;t we ever play the brains? lol.

Cheers!
-Liq

dathon78
Jan 15, 2007, 07:42 AM
Ok, looks like Liq is MIA; IamI3rian, you're up!

dathon

IamI3rian
Jan 15, 2007, 01:01 PM
Gotcha. I'll take these turns when I get home from work tonight. Liq, if you happen to show up before that, feel free to take 'em.

Liquidated
Jan 16, 2007, 03:15 PM
ug yeah liq is mia trying to get dosbox stable on new pc

meh

allow a liq a swap please gonna reinstall everything which is never fun.

Cheers!
-Liq

IamI3rian
Jan 17, 2007, 01:38 AM
Halfway through my turns, I'll finsh tomorrow (17th) sorry for the delay.

Lookie that, almost 12 hours exactly ;)

IamI3rian
Jan 17, 2007, 01:35 PM
How very interesting. First, I took the liberty of deciding to shorten the turns taken to 10. Seemed mine lasted long enough.

Preturn: Send all lasers at Rhilus to Xengara (fertile nebula bound 105) to 'Hold' it til Next Colship is built. Send one LR LASER from Exis to NE red Star to scout (Which I later learn is a Meklar colony Phyco). I notice that Fieras will build the next colship in 3 turns, so I divert the one going to Rha up to Xengara.

2361: Turn Eco at Thrax to +1 pop. +2 Seems a bit of a waste

2362: Next Turn

2363: Settled Exis. Contact with Ruthless Diplomat Meklars?!?! That could get messy with their excellent computer tech. They clearly had an alliance with someone to settle their easternmost colony. Took screenie of the map. I still don't see HOW we got Exis from the Meks. They can clearly reach it, and it's much closer to them then it is to us. Better to be lucky and all that :) Send Colship from Fieras to Rha. Send 20 Colonists to Exis. Start trade with the Meks at 75 BC's a year. Send out scouts.

2364: Scouted Phyco. Meks had 2 colships there, Arrid 65 at 50 pop 47 facts. Continue scouting

2365: Scout gets to meklon. Pop 96, 400 Facts 14 Missile bases. and 1 large warship (jax FWIW) and another colship

2366: Meks 'attack' Exis with an unarmed colship. Scouts get to crypto SE of Exis Hostile Toxic 20. Continue Scouting, try to up the trade with the sillys. They can only handle 75 BC's a year. Not worth it.

2367: Scouts get to Tauri. No planets. Fierras finishes Colship 2 turns early, and is set to research. 3% RIW80, ECMI is almost a full bulb

2368: Humans are east of Meklon. Sol 100 Pop 200 Facts. 4 Colships, 5 Mediums Defend. Scout Kakata NE of Xengara Hostile Tundra 20.

GNN announcement Major Industrial Accident!!! It's ok though, it's on Sol. Poor Humans. RIW80 10% ECM 5%

2369: North of Sol are Klackons! Kholdan Pop 39 200 Facts. 2 Large ships and 21 fighters with 7 missile bases. Colonize Xengara and Rha. GNN announces that Sol is cleaned up. Contact with Klacks Trade set to a measley 25BC's a year. Erratic Technologists eh? Send 20 Million Colonists from Thrax to Xengara. Colship sent out to Talas. Continue Scouting

2370: ECM Jammer comes in, as does RIW80%. ECM mark II and IRCIII are the options. I go for robotic control. Improved industrial Tech 8 is the only choice for construction.

Summary: Managed to get 3 more planets, and one more on the way out. Next Ruler needs to work on sending out colonists to Rha, and Talas, when it's settled. Also, we're starting to get to the point where expansion is done with. Still no sign of the Psilons, which is almost NEVER a good thing. I've attached a copy of the map at 2370, for those of us who would like to see that. Might be a good idea to get Imp Ind Tech 8 Before anything else. I didn't fuss with the tech sliders at all, I leave that to the next emperor.

P.S. I STILL can't manage to upload useful pics, as those are too small. Oh well, it happens.

dathon78
Jan 17, 2007, 01:48 PM
Got it... blah blah message too short...

dathon78
Jan 17, 2007, 02:15 PM
And now for the fastest turn around in SG history...

Took Fierias off of research, leaving only the Poor. This wasn't enough muscle for IIT8, so I finished off Class II and Gats, choosing Hyper-X over Fusion Bombs and Ion Cannon, and getting saddled with Class III. Research is back whole hog into IIT8 now that Fierias can devote some to research.

Settled the desert world, colonists on the way to it and Rha.

Built some fighters for Xengara (13 was NOT going to cut it, and we can't afford to lose that world to the rocks), a col ship for the southern Barren world, and the last col ship for the Tundra NE of Xengara is in progress. That's probably a pipe dream, but what the heck, we did land Exis, so who knows.

Found Sol East of Meklon, and Mentar in the closest yellow in the NE corner. Those Psilons have some room to expand, assuming there's any good real estate up there, though the blue next to their homeworld is radiated. Relations are climbing steadily, and the neurotic bugs have everybody in the east distracted, so we have a bit of breathing room there, but just a bit. Looks like we weren't the only ones screwed in the land lottery.

Next emperor will want to think about fortifying Exis, and starting us out of the tech hole. Looks like this might not be as hard as I thought. If those Psilons get some territory going in the corner though... :eek:

dathon

Roster:
dathon --> played
Stup --> UP NOW
Zed --> on deck
Olorin
Liq
Iam3Irian

StuporMan
Jan 17, 2007, 02:33 PM
You managed to download and play a turnset in under 45 minutes from it being posted. Next time don't take so long ;)

At any rate I have the save, but am unable to look at it until tomorrow (no I can't try and get a turnset up in under an hour like dathon, and with the mistakes I make taking much longer you would not want me to).

StuporMan

IamI3rian
Jan 17, 2007, 02:53 PM
Nicely done dathon, good idea on defending Xengara. I think you made the right choice on getting gats out of the way. Those Hyper-X's are gonna come in handy for defense soon, I figure.

We had a great tech selection too, all the good early techs were available. Anyway, the real reason for this post is to ask about the GNN event I got. Does that leave Sol radiated? If so, that might've been a good thing for the humans, as they can't be invaded for a while. Unless of course that ALSO leaves Sol hostile. Either way, I'm glad it wasn't Fierias :)

Edit: I also noticed that we can cram a shield and a computer onto the same design we are using for fighters. Puts the cost up from 11 to 18 though. Is that worth it? We can scrap the scouts (the two we start with) or the normal colony ship to make room for them.

Zed-F
Jan 17, 2007, 08:52 PM
Yep, Sol is now Radiated. It can be cleaned up with Atmospheric Terraforming and will actually get larger than it started out as if it is.

IamI3ian, I noticed you didn't trade with Silicoids... was that a first contact thing? We've found over the last several SGs that the best trade agreement is the one for 25BC/year. The money isn't important, since it takes so long for trade agreements to become profitable anyway and the AI is prone to breaking them as your empire expands unless you exercise enemy-of-my-enemy diplomacy. What is important is the relations boost trading gives, and a minimal trade agreement is helpful in that regard. Dathon mentioned relations climbing steadily, so hopefully we do have a 25BC/turn agreement with them we can keep going.

As far as redesigning a laser boat, I wouldn't bother until we can fit a better weapon on them. Definitely not the computer since we are kitties and have ample innate gunnery. Computers and shields are expensive without significant miniaturization, and shield I is good for blunting lasers a bit but not much else; if the enemy has better weapons than lasers, you might as well not bother and just pump out more hulls for the same money. (This gives you more offense and more defense, as opposed to just one or the other.)

dathon78
Jan 18, 2007, 07:39 AM
You managed to download and play a turnset in under 45 minutes from it being posted. Next time don't take so long

Sometimes the stars align just right :lol: Had some down time, which is why I was checking here in the first place, then thought, "yeah, it's the beginning, not a lot going on, I can do this!" It's funnier because I'm usually the one delaying when my turn is up :)

so hopefully we do have a 25BC/turn agreement with them we can keep going.

When I inherited the turns, we had trade agreements with all races in contact . Not minimum in all cases, so they are costing us, but they are there :) Bugs are their usual erratic selves, though, so we'll probably end up fighting them at some point. Good news there is that they are already into it with the Meklars and Humans.

dathon

StuporMan
Jan 18, 2007, 07:41 AM
Silicoids decided to probe our defenses. Chased away an unescorted Colship from the Tundra in the NE, it did not try to fight indicating they are still lacking weapons on the current design. They also appear to be sending ships at > 5 parsecs. They may have fuel reserves on board. You may notice we have ships moving between Xengara and Kakata (NE Tundra), this is due to shuffling laser ships to take out the Colony ship I saw inbound. Forunately, I had decided to send a few earlier to help hold that planet. Xengara has enough production to pump lasers should we need it, but should be left pumping industry if we can let it. Also note, Xengara should always be defended by ships not just missile bases, since the Nebula negates all shielding (I have made that mistake before and it is not pretty). In my pentultimate turn, we chase the unescorted rock ship away from Simius (ultra rich toxic) further confirming that they are unarmed (I send a few lasers to defend just in case). We need to be sure not to lose the two Ultra rich planets near us to the Rocks, as this would not only give them access to our entire core, but also good planets with high production values.

After We settled Xendalla (South Tundra) I noticed we could design a Long Range Colony ship to get Aurora (Steppe 50 Poor) to the SE. Since we are so close to getting a tech at this point (25%), I leave this to our next leader.

Pretty boring turnset, aside from the probes from the rocks. We have a new planet and some more industry all over. Don't forget about the Dead colony headed to Xengara and due next turn. At this point it looks like Kakata is ours for the taking, and should put us in contact with the Brains.

I have shifted around production to balance research and industry a bit as we started getting 6 or more factories per turn on a planet, we can't fall too far behind the rocks or we will appear an easy target. Next leader feel free to change that at your discretion.

I have also sent an updated map as I ran across a Psilon colony in the far NE.

Stup

IamI3rian
Jan 18, 2007, 09:57 PM
Yeah, we had 50 BC/year going with the 'coids. I was merely looking to upgrade it a bit. At only 75 BC/year, it wasn't worth it. 100+ and I think I woulda gone for it, as it should have matured almost fully by the now. At least I hope so anyway, the whole trading formula makes my brain bleed. I thought I read somewhere that as a rough estimate it takes about 10 turns before it starts turning a profit, and about 10 more til it's at full effect. I don't remember though, if that only applies to new trades, or upgraded ones. Or both maybe.

I heartily second the idea of defending those UR planets in our first ring. Much better for no one to have them, then for the 'coids to get their grubby rocksicles on them.

The reason I was curious about the fighter design is because I'm a bit nervous about having only popguns to defend.

One more thing on the industrial accident. That reduces the population by half right? So Sol is now a pretty small planet? Does that still leave the factories intact? Poor poor Humans. They just can't catch a break.

My biggest request though, is a spy or two in the enemy empires. I'd probably feel better knowing that the rocks and the bugs don't have anything much better than we do.

vmxa
Jan 18, 2007, 10:43 PM
If you increase a trade, it will set the scale back towards the negative side a bit (porportional).

The formula for growth is d200 roll + your current relations value with partner + 25 this results is divided by 60. The chance of an increase is -1% to +5% per turn.

Zed-F
Jan 18, 2007, 11:15 PM
Ok, I have the savefile, but can't play tonight.

IamI3rian
Jan 19, 2007, 12:57 AM
Thanks again vmxa, I always appreciate your help. Only thing is though, what's the number that your current relations value corresponds to? Is it from 0-12(ish) based on the colour levels? That would seem to make sense.

You say this result is divided by 60, but then what happens with the final number? Or, maybe I mean to ask what exactly that number calculates? ::brain bleeds::

Also, I assume the chance is cumulative, as -1% would indicate, thus, I wonder if it resets if the trade value increases, and by how much ( a percentage of the increase perhaps?) that it does increase.

Is this all in the strat guide? I think I'm gonna grab a copy from Ebay, if it is. Thanks alot for your help

dathon78
Jan 19, 2007, 07:57 AM
IIRC, relations are on a scale of 0 - 100; that's how many "clicks" there are on the relations bar.

EVERYTHING is in that strat guide, so it would definitely be worthwhile to pick up if you want to understand the game better.

My general rule of thumb for trade is to start trade at minimal with everybody at the earliest opportunity, and only raise it if:

1)My partner can support doubling or better our current agreement
2)I have no intention of attacking this race for awhile
3)I don't think that they have any intention of attacking ME for quite awhile.

dathon

vmxa
Jan 19, 2007, 08:02 AM
Yes it is straight from the guide. Unfortunetly my scanner crapped out or I could scan in some of the info. It is very complex.

The amount of trade establish runs from -30 to 100 (max profit percentage). The -30% is the cost of start up. This is applied to any increase in the trade. So you will suffer that hit for adding more.

It is offset by any current profitability you may have. So 75BC gets -30% of that or -22BC. Then the d200 is rolled to get a number. That is used to add to your current relationship. EX: you are -20 for unease. It is then your roll, say 140, it is then 140 -20 +25 = 145/60 for 2.4, which rounds down to 2.

That is what you profit percent will be that turn. That means you would be at -28 that turn, from the -30 start point. There is a table that shows the expectations based on your relationship.

When increasing the current trade you take that -30 hit, but it calculates the current route as well and its profit will be offset by the new figures loss, so the hit is less.

EX: 100bc making +8, bump 50. The +8% is avg with the -30 and the size of the 100 is twice that of the 50 so the effect is the 100 now become +16 and added to the -30 it becomes -14.

Thisis divided by 3 for the 1/3 sized 50 trade and the new avg profit is now -4.6, rounded to -4. So the new trade of 150 is now -4% or -6BC.

Very complex as you can see. So the increase or even decrease is going to be affected by the relation. Harmony would expect to do +2 to +5 about 30% of the time, but a Feud would have about 60% of 0 and only 30% at +1, no shot of more than +2.

StuporMan
Jan 19, 2007, 08:22 AM
While we are talking about game mechanics already. I have noticed that secondary characteristics on opponents often seem to indicate a bonus to that area of research in terms of available tech options in the related category and possibly in reduction of tech costs.

It is known that certain races get bonuses and or penalties to certain research categories, but these seem to be different than that. For example, the Meklar have an inherent weakness in Planetology, but a Meklar with an Ecologist trait seem to get better/more choices in the planetology field. Or the Klackons getting very good choices in Propulsion even though they are poor in the field if their leader has the Expansionist trait.

This is difficult to quantify as the traits also seem to affect tech priorities and resource allocation, but it seems to be even more exaggerated than that. (IE a non-runaway Meklar leading in the Planetology category). I have only empirical data supporting this theory at this point, but it would help explain those times when you pick a race and have excellent selections in the categories they are supposed to be bad at (I also believe traits are rolled for the player).

Does anyone else have hard info on this theory or have noticed this effect before?

StuporMan

IamI3rian
Jan 19, 2007, 02:09 PM
Thanks vmxa, that happened to make quite a bit of sense to me. Helpful that guide is. I think I will definitely have to pick up a copy. dathon also brings up a good point, as I figure that the 'coids are our first target, so increasing the trade might not have been the best idea even if it doubled.

As for Stup's observations, I've got very little to add. Never occured to me that traits would be more than just decision making differences. I've also played less than 20 games so far, so I'm not exactly a treasure trove of observations.

As far as rolling traits up for the player, if they affect nothing but Role Playing choices then it would be a moot piont. If however, there ARE more tech choices, or better ones then I would be VERY interested in seeing how they affect the player's tech trees.

As for 'better' choices, this seems VERY viable as there are plenty of techs worth more to the AI than their tech level would indicate. Inertial stablizers for example. Unfortunately, the best way to study this would seem to me to be to take a peep at the code, something I can't do.

vmxa
Jan 19, 2007, 09:32 PM
I think that there is no such thing as personality traits and the Limited Research List. It is not mentioned any place in the guide, so to me it does not exist.

The list is not even impacted by the Racial traits, let alone any personality such as being Xeno. The list is generated at the time the universe is created. The leaders can change personalities and can even be replaced.

It sounds good, but it is not correct.

IamI3rian
Jan 19, 2007, 10:36 PM
Well, I trust vmxa's answer, even if he is a Klackon. The only explanation I can offer is that it only seems that way from the increased funding the trait causes. He adds a compelling arguement with the fact that leaders can be replaced.

Would be nice though. Add a bit more depth to the game. Incidentally vxma, how come you don't take part in the OSG's?

vmxa
Jan 19, 2007, 10:45 PM
I can barely keep up with the Civ3 SG and a Civ4 demo game I have going now. I am not able to visit this site at work either, so I have a hard time even reading all the threads I want to nowadays.

I try to stay up with the RB games though.

Zed-F
Jan 20, 2007, 09:33 AM
Preturn: Not sure why we are putting everything into IIT8, as we don't need it for regular LR colony ships. Are we hoping for LR Dead colony ships or something? Anyway, now that it's up into percentages we don't need to be pumping so much funds into it. I equalize research, with a small emphasis on computers, planetology, and propulsion.

We've discovered Aurora, which is at range 9, and can build LR colony ships, yet don't have one in construction or enroute. I put Fierias back on shipbuilding. Many of our planets are not yet maxed out yet are building tech, so I fix that as well, growing pop and building factories as necessary. I look around and find a lot of our scouts guarding worlds that are in range for our laser boats, rather than scouting. I start moving the ones I can up towards unexplored territory. I also build a round of scouts at Xengara.

2392: IIT8 comes in, and I start on Battle Suits next, with the full range of options available. IIT8 does not allow LR Dead bases so I'm not sure what the rush to get it was all about. Silicoids settle Crius in the north.

2393: Silicoids settle Gaius in the north and now span 12 systems. We didn't get scouts up north fast enough to push back their unarmed colony ships. Crius at least was in range for scouts from Xengara.

2395: Settle Kakata, get contact with the 5PE Honorable Industrialist Psilons, get a 40BC/annum trade agreement going with them. They are allied with the Meklars and at war with the Klackons, who are currently the weakest race other than the Humans. If we wanted to be really nasty we could make a play for Kholdan, which is within range 6 of Xengara so our warships (such as they are) could in fact reach it; we'd probably make some friends as a result, too. But I imagine this will have to wait until Xengara and Exis (our two closest worlds) mature a bit more.

This also triggers the vote. Everyone abstains but the Silicoids, with 8 votes, and us, with 6. Note that the Silicoids currently have greater than 1/3 of the total votes (21), but we don't.

2399: Talas becomes poor. Sucky, but at least it's a backline world and not likely to be doing much other than research or coming under heavy threat anyway.

2400: There is a Silicoid colony ship that looks to be heading to Anraq (though it just vanished off Xengara's sensors) and a Meklar huge ship that might be heading for Kakata! We don't have a vote this turn as someone recently wiped out the Klackon colony, leaving them with just their homeworld and putting the galaxy just under the vote threshold.

I did not start spying going as we are not really ready to attack anyone yet, but Xengara should max next turn so we could start thinking about building a fleet there, either for local defense or to pester someone with. However, we still have crap for weapons and no speed, so it might be better to wait for sublight engines to come in... unless the Meks really are making a play for Kakata, of course. You could try to bluff them off, or else start building a fleet next turn from Xengara to push them away... it will likely take a lot of laser boats to put a dent in that huge, though.

The save is attached.

Roster:
dathon
Stup
Zed --> just played
Olorin --> UP NOW
Liq --> On Deck
Iam3Irian

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 21, 2007, 12:57 AM
I've got it. I'll get the turns done tomorrow.

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 21, 2007, 09:01 PM
Pretty uneventful turnset:

I was worried about the Meklar Huge near Kakata, so I offered them a NAP (we are not contesting any habitable worlds with them. Turns out they were using a Psilon alliance to send it to the far north.

Opened up spying on all the races. Silicoids have a huge lead, even the Psilons are trailing by quite a bit.

Silicoids took Anraq. They arrived with an armed colship one turn before the Lasers Zed sent over arrived. Not wanting to start a war with laser popguns, I didn't invade. I did beef up the garrisons at the Ultra Riches, as well as our front line worlds. Missile bases were also added at Fieras, Exis, Rhilus and Xengara.

I found Tundra between the Meks and Psilons, but LR Dead still not possible.

Aurora was founded near in 2407, colonists on the way from Trax and Exis (via presending from Trax). Aurora got us contact with Humans. They have two worlds, and are way behind in production and tech. We can't even trade with them, their economy is so small. I did swap them IIT8 for a Deep Space Scanner. I figured it wouldn't hurt us much since they are unlikely to be founding new worlds, and DSS gives us a nice boost in computers and revealed a lot more about fleet movements.

2409 saw Hyper-Xs arrive. I went for Mass Driver next rather than Fus Bomb or Ion Cannon because it was the only one that would let us advance (so much for Mrrshan being weapon specialists).

2410 we got RC3. I went for Imp. Scanner over ECM2 or 3. I've set most of our worlds to refit, with some of the Poor or backline worlds keeping some tech spending alive.

Ideas:
Our next priority should be to stand up the new factories everywhere, and then get a real fleet started. Sub-light engines are getting close, so hopefully by the time the new factories are finished, we can build some Warp 3 Hyper-X boats. The Silicoids already have PS5, so we should focus our initial aggression on the Humans or Klacks (Klacks preferably because they are at war with everyone else, and because their homeworld didn't get irradiated like Sol). Meks would also be a possibility, but watch out for their alliances. We don't want to get into it with the Psilons or Silicoids yet.

One interesting strategy would be to ask the Coids to join us in a war with the Meks. It would give us good relations with the Coids, but we would be able to snatch most or all of the Mek planets due to our proximity and faster ships. It should also force the Psilons to declare on us and the Silicoids, and having the Psilons at war with the Silicoids would be a good thing. We would probably be able to make peace with the Psilons after eliminating the Meks, and line up whoever is left into an anti-Silicoid alliance.

dathon78
Jan 22, 2007, 07:40 AM
Good set of turns! I would have stopped for Fusion bombs before the Mass Drivers; once somebody gets a Class V planetary, their planets will be immune to our weapons, even the Hyper X's. I think that will be a major factor in who we go after. Keep checking those spies! Good choice on the Human tech trade.

Alright Liq, you're up! IamI3rian, you're on deck.

dathon

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 22, 2007, 10:39 AM
I passed on the fusions because if we got them now, they would be too big to fit on a bomber. I'd rather get the next tier first, and then go back for them when they will have been miniaturized a bit. Plus there's always a chance that we'll steal or capture the tech in the meantime.

dathon78
Jan 22, 2007, 01:26 PM
It's a toss-up without a clear answer; could go either way. I would have been tempted to pick them up because with the cats, we don't need to worry about fitting a computer on board at this point, so we might have been able to pack a few on some mediums, and get the job done that way. I really think we want to be attacking now, while the AI's are still very stunted by their bad land draw, and I feel a little uneasy that we may be seeing some Class V's soon that would put us cooling our heels for awhile, as we will have to research them anyways. That said, if the shields don't show up (and there's a chance of that with the stunted AI's not being able to research them) your choice will definitely be the stronger. But that's the fun of these games; seeing different choices than we might make, and debating the possible outcomes :) I tend to play it conservative and cautious, probably too much so at times, so I like to see the more aggressive choices, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. Either way, I think we are in good shape.

dathon

StuporMan
Jan 22, 2007, 01:50 PM
In this case I feel Mass Drivers were the more correct choice due mainly to this being a Hard variant and not Impossible. On Impossible, I feel that getting the bombs earlier would be the correct choice. With the difficulty setting the way it is, I think we are still a good turnset or two away from anyone getting a planetary shield and then it would only be the rocks. Once we get our factories filled out, going back and getting fusions to put on our speed 3+ smalls would take very little time.

Moving up the tree also has the potential to reveal Antimatter bombs or Stingers (or both). As I am sure we all know, either of these can be a make or break tech. Another advantage is that we are currently picketing two rich planets we cannot colonize that reside in the middle of our core. Bombers are ineffective at repelling fleets, which is what we will need until we can get Radiated tech.

On Impossible, from our position we would need firepower yesterday in order to gain a vote blocking position. And to nab some more useful techs from our fleshy neighbors. The relations bonus from enemy of enemy politicking would also be necessary to keep the rocks from assimilating our gains.

StuporMan

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 22, 2007, 02:00 PM
Having had the advantage of seeing the AI techs, I'm not at all worried about the Humans, Klacks or Meks picking up PS5 before we can take them out with Hyper-X boats. They are at FF2 right now, so they need to finish research on FF3 or PDS, and then research the PS5, if it's even in their tree. The Meks might be able to reach FF3 + PS5 before we get MD + FusBomb, but the Humans and Klacks don't have the economy (they are already behind us in tech).

The Silicoids already have it, and we wouldn't be able to take them on using Medium Fus Bombers with speed 2. The Psilons will probably get PS5 before we can go back for the bombs, but they are geographically the worst race to attack, and the only decent choice of an ally against the Silicoids.

I think our best move is to take Kholdan. We need to keep an eye on Phyco too, since the Meks and Klacks have been trading it back and forth. If the Klacks take it again, we should try to take it from them. That would knock the Meks back to a 2PE, with their colony way too far from Meklon for them to support each other. Once the Bugs are gone, we can take the Human colony and glass Sol (it's radiated). By then, we will hopefully have enough missile boats to challenge the Meklar Huges.

Zed-F
Jan 22, 2007, 02:08 PM
If the Klacks do recolonize Phyco, then we can potentially take Kholdan from the bugs without triggering xenocide race relations penalties. Let someone else piss everyone off by wiping out the bugs. ;)

Also, we probably don't need fusion bombs yet; nuclear bombs will work well against anyone we are likely to fight in the short term, and coming back for fusion bombs later is rarely a problem. I just wish we could have progressed by getting something better than mass driver. It might be worth considering going back for Ion Cannons to give us a decent fighter weapon.

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 22, 2007, 03:15 PM
I'd like to have Ion Cannons as well. The good news is that the Meks and Psilons both have them, so we might be able to steal or pointy-stick the tech rather than having to go back for it. The Meks are even behind us in computer tech, so we could start espionage now, but for sure we should when we go to war with them.

We could steal from the Klacks or Humans easily, but they don't have anything worth stealing except maybe Hand Lasers.

IamI3rian
Jan 22, 2007, 07:04 PM
I agree with passing on the bombs. While they would definitely help our offense, I'm much more worried about our ability to defend our worlds. If it comes down to us v the 'coids right now, we'd be murdered. While they grow half as fast as we do, we've got no bonus to gropo. They've got quite the little soldier rocks, with PDS, hand lasers, and battle suits. We need to keep them away from our planets, not worry about glassing theirs. Not yet anyway. :satan: They're definitely something to come back and pick up though, but I'd much rather have those stingers, if we get them. Even the ion cannons would be nice.

I think zed's right about letting someone else finish off the Klacks. Would be much better for us to take Kholdan than it would for us to get Phyco. Besides, we can always take Phyco from whoever gets it :)

I like Olorin's idea of trying to get the 'coids with us to attack the Meks and, the even MORE brilliant follow up of making peace with the Brains, to form a coalition against the Rocks. At this stage, it certainly seems like we're gonna need some help.

As far as espionage is concerned, my wish list is RC4 from the rocks, and ARS from the brains. That duralloy the Meks have would be pretty sweet too. I tend to play pretty theft heavy though. Call it lucky (or the Meklar computer excellence :))

Anyway, I'm having a blast with this! So glad I came out of Lurkerville to actually play a round with you guys. I'm in for the long haul I think, as this is clearly my favorite video game, and I see myself playing a few thousand more games before I finally get tired of it.

vmxa- I see. Well, maybe when that's all out of the way, or during the next RB game, I'll be able to see how much better you are than me :thumbsup:

Just to clarify:

Roster:
dathon
Stup
Zed
Olorin --> just played
Liq --> UP NOW
I3rian --> on deck

I hope Liq can take his turns this time. I'm pretty eager to play, but the more the merrier, and I know how terrible it is having a comp that doesn't do what you tell it to.

dathon78
Jan 22, 2007, 08:01 PM
I tend to play pretty theft heavy though

Keep in mind that we cannot steal a tech that is above our highest tech level. Also keep in mind that the Psilons run maximum security sweeps every few turns as a matter of course. Other than that, go nuts :) Of course noting that spying on the rocks could bring them down on our heads.

dathon

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 22, 2007, 11:16 PM
I would advise not wasting money trying to spy on the rocks. They already have RC4...they totally outclass us in espionage. The Humans and Klacks should be pushovers in spying, and we don't care if they catch us anyway. The Meks should be doable now that we have RC3, but it might take multiple spies to pry loose the good stuff. Sub-lights are around the corner, a Level 12 tech, which would allow either Duralloy or Ion Cannons to be stolen.

The Psilons are Honorable Industrialists this time around, which might make it easier to spy on them, but the Honorable is worrisome. Getting caught would be bad, especially since they are the only potentially effective ally against the rocks.

I'd go ahead and spy on the Humans and Meks. Humans have Hand Lasers and Meks have range 5 and Hyper-V which we could nab now, and Ion Cannons and Duralloy which can be taken once we get Sub-lights. The Klacks only have range 5, which isn't worth spending money on (as we'll either get it from the Meks on a lower level steal, or by invading Kholdan). I'd lay off the Psilons for now. We should wait until we arrange a mutual war with the Rocks, and have the enemy of my enemy diplomacy going to give us a cushion against getting caught. We REALLY don't want to face both the Brains and the Rocks allied against us. A bit more time would allow us to catch up to the Brains in computers too. Besides ARS and BC3, they don't have anything we can't get from the Meks anyway.

Liquidated
Jan 23, 2007, 10:50 AM
ok well work been kicking me but finally got dosbox and my pc to make up last night... er this morning er wait, just now.. :mad:

I'll catch up with the game today and play some moo finally after I collapse in a heap of sleep deprivation... sigh.

Allow me to test the swear filters of this fine forum....


Cheers!
-Liq

Liquidated
Jan 24, 2007, 09:33 PM
meh ok I see mass factories being built so not much to do here... Finally tweaked dosbox so it's effing stable, used an old moo screen to match my frameskip and cpu cycles from before lol.

uneventful stuff until 2414 where our scout makes it to jinga (50 Steppe) in the extreme SE at a range of 5. An unescorted psilon colony is headed there due in 2 or 3 turns so if it's unarmed I'll blitz a colony over

GNN Fleet strength comes in and order is
Sillys
Mechs
Psilon
Us
Klacks
Humans

we are moving up! blink

Since nothing better to report I'll go into details!

Rhilus hits max 195 factories leave it on research for now as we really need a round of techs
Xengara hits max 315 factories I build a few bases on it since it's so exposed
Fierias hits max 300 factories leave research
Xendalla hits max 90 factories leave research
Exis hits max 225 factories put into bases for a few.

Psilon colony ship was armed and chases scout off of jinga... send scout back over to harry it. Glad I didn;t waste time on a colony.

Gorra is 35 tundra at 8 range in the far east just north of jinga and east of sol. No redesire to even see if we can send a colony there as it's too far and too small.

population hits aurira and it tries to spam a few factories... p0 poor

Sillys send an armed colony to argus and colonize it meh nothing could be done, too far away

Trax is full pop... no place to shuffle off tropps so place 50% into factories.

and liq's turns are done after seemingly beatting the next turn button senseless lol

No research but Force/planet and prop are all in low %'s with constructtion about 3/4ths bulb

we are popular, everyone likes us, we are popular

I turn off all base spending so one doesn;t run away unawares

Techs will be in next round with major upgrades from sublight drives and eco restoration.


Time to build a new fleet soon, btw kitties own with gatlings, even the pathetic lasers.


Btw the humans still do not have enough production to fund a single 25 BC traderoute...

Cheers!
-Liq

dathon78
Jan 24, 2007, 09:39 PM
Good work Liq; glad you could make it :)

IamI3rian, you're up. I'll be out of town this weekend, so if you can't get this by Friday morning, let me know, and I'll take my turns ahead of you.

dathon

IamI3rian
Jan 25, 2007, 02:50 AM
If you can get them up by 6 eastern time tomorrow night (thursday) feel free to switch with me, otherwise, I'll be taking them when I get home after work then. I haven't even had time to read Liq's turns yet. I don't want to hold up the game at all, but I don't want us to both end up playing the same turnset either... that would get messy I think :)

StuporMan
Jan 25, 2007, 07:46 AM
I took a peek at the save, and things look fairly good.

Humans have fusion bombs, so we might want to switch from hide to espionage since we have a comp advantage. We can perhaps pick up this tech cheaply while researching up the tree.

Heres hoping for a Radiated draw next in planetology, we really need to get some of those planets settled to defend against the rocks taking them (they will send some heavy escorts sooner or later). If we don't get Radiated, then I don't know what we are going to do. This is one of the few times I am actually rooting for Radiated over Soil (but I would definitely take both)!

Oh I also just noticed that Crypto (Toxic between Exis and Aurora) probably needs some real defenders. No one is sending unarmed colony ships anymore, so we may just want to scrap our current scouts and use popguns instead. This might can wait till sublights come in, but we definitely need to be sure to limit Rock expansion since they already are pretty significant runaways.

StuporMan

dathon78
Jan 25, 2007, 09:04 AM
IamI3rian - Go ahead and play your turns tonight; I should have some time tomorrow to pick up the game.

dathon

IamI3rian
Jan 25, 2007, 08:01 PM
used an old moo screen to match my frameskip and cpu cycles from before lol.

Brilliant :)

Sorry I ran a bit late, didn't realize I had to work a little tonight. Anyway, got it now, and I'm playing my ten out presently.

Edit: Incidentally, I had to preform a disk recovery recently (kinda like a reformat without LOSING files, just returning them to the original format) and I don't seem to be getting DOS sound anymore. I use Windows ME (yeah I know) it's all I have, but it DID work. I can't seem to remember what I did to get the sound working... anyone have any ideas? Not a super big deal, but I was fond of the music.

Edit2: Fixed it, comp was just being ghetto

IamI3rian
Jan 25, 2007, 10:02 PM
Preturn: Set human spy to espionage. Send Las's from Exis to Crypto to try to hold the planet.

2421: Plague event hits Kakata. :( Also Kakata gets max factories this turn, so it's not ALL bad. Propulsion at 13% I make a placeholder huge ship, to try to pump some faster fighters later. Also, spend reserve to try to fix that plague. Scrap the scouts for BC's

2422: Shuffle some lasers to Simius and Esper. I won't let the sillys get them.

2423: Class III Deflectors and Enhanced Eco restoration comes in.
Planetary Shield V <--- I pick this
Class IV deflector

Death Spores
Soil Enrichment <--- I pick this
Bio Toxin Antidote

2424: Shift Spending to emphasize soil and Imp. scanner. propulsion at 21%

2425: VOTE 25 votes us versus sillys. They have 10 votes. We only get klackon vote (1 vote) all others abstain, we had 7 votes.

2426: Spies infiltrate humans.. Comp Cons and Weap. Go for weap, and get hand lasers :( Battle suits come in

ARS
Reduced Ind Waste 60% <--- I pick this
Imp Industrial 6

I hope I made the right pick here
GNN says hyboria (psilon world) will go super nova

I manage to spot a new silly huge too... that doesn't bode well

2427: Silly colships hit Simius and Esper. Both retreat. Sub Lights come in

Nuclear engines
Dotomite (range 7) <--- I pick this
Energy Pulsar
Fusion drives (speed 4)

I design a new fighter. only costs 3 BC's for a mark I. I thought about leaving it off, but honestly, we need to roll that 4 damage as much as possible to even do damage to lots of ships. cost is 17 each.

2428: 233 new las 3 pump out. (woulda been 283 without the comps... maybe a bad choice on my part) switch ship building worlds to tech. 2 clicks to silly spies. I wanna see what they have.

2429: Imp. Scanner comes in.
Ecm mark 2, 3, 4
IRC IV <--- I pick this
Battle computer V

Everyone is headed to Crypto. I send 60 shiny new las 3's to help defend. I also see that Kakata is dying (duh) so I send colonists from Xengara to man (cat?) the factories.

2430: Nothing happens, I change nothing.

Next emperor should maybe make a play for Phyco. Now we've got a fleet (such as it is), and I really don't see the meks or the klacks being able to stop us. (sure wish we had a better weapon though :() Might wanna try to trade some tech around. Can't let those sillys get TOO far ahead.

Kakata is still plagued, still trying to spy on humans and sillys. There's a LOT going on in the east.

Roster:
dathon -->UP NOW
Stup --> On Deck
Zed
Olorin
Liq
I3rian --> Just Played

Good luck Emperor dathon!

p.s. Check me out, I can FINALLY make a decent screen shot :)

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 25, 2007, 11:25 PM
We could also look into building some medium with Hyper-X missiles. They should be enough to knock out missile bases from anyone who doesn't have a planetary shield yet. They would also help defend against larger enemy ships that aren't easily whittled down by lasers.

Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to design a large hull with a Battle Scanner. Mostly to take a look at enemy ship stats, but outfitted with a computer and a stack of gatlings, it wouldn't be bad at defending the ultra-riches (Comp+Scanner+Cats= decent damage even with gatlings)

IamI3rian
Jan 26, 2007, 12:03 AM
Yeah, I thought about Hyper-X's too. With a 5 shot rack it costs 68 BC's. I decided against actually building any, because I thought that they would be pretty ineffective (not that the las 3's are top of the line). In fact, I think it's still sitting in the design window of the save file. Didn't think about using them to take down bases though. I guess I wasn't thinking along those lines.

Battle scanner crossed my mind too, but I didn't consider throwing on some gatling lasers and using it to defend Simius and Esper. Great idea. Clearly I still have a lot to learn. I just wrote it off as a waste, until we'd get a better beam weapon, or even ARS from research or the brains. I gotta remember that cats can hit stuff pretty well, and manage to do damage even with outdated weapons.

Liquidated
Jan 26, 2007, 12:53 AM
oh my the damage this collection of moo cows have wroth with medium missile boats.... shudder. :D


oh and reduced waste 60% is such a vital tech... good pick.

Cheers!
-Liq

StuporMan
Jan 26, 2007, 06:00 AM
Good Turnset IamI3rian. The only decision I would have made differently would have been to research Fusion drives (speed 4) instead of Range 7. I am not saying Range 7 was a mistake, but Speed 4 allows you to bomb a planet one turn earlier (turn 3). If we manage to pick up IS from someone, that means we are bombing on turn 2. It also moves us up the tree. Range 7, puts us in range of more of our weaker opponents planets. This is good as it allows us to pick where we will attack, and is fairly cheap. A toss up really.

Umm, did anyone notice that neither Radiated nor Toxic showed up in our tree. So much for the theory that you are guaranteed one or the other. That does not bode well for preventing the Rocks from taking the rich hostile worlds in our territory. Eventually they will send a bigger fleet than we can defend against and they will take them from us. Decent bombs are looking more and more appealing.

Hopefully we will get another spy penetration on Human weapons soon to get Fusion Bombs online.

StuporMan

Zed-F
Jan 26, 2007, 06:08 AM
I can't say I agree, Liq -- we just got Enhanced Eco, so Reduced Waste is rather superfluous. Reduced Waste 60% doesn't advance us in the tree; our only new tech to research was IIT 6.

Similarly, Dotomite Crystals (Range 7) was available already last time around (we chose Sublights instead) so picking it now won't advance us in the tree. Besides, I believe we already have range 6. I would have gone with Fusion Engines, which are very important for enabling move 3+ bombers, and for general strategic speed -- move 3 transports being that much better than move 2 transports.

The other tech choices all look good to me, except I'm not quite sure what kind of battle computer we are running. I don't think we've researched a new one yet, have we? We should perhaps pick one up next.

dathon78
Jan 26, 2007, 09:47 AM
Pre-turn
I have to agree with Zed's analysis on the tech situation, but nothing to be done for that now. Set 20% each to RCIV, ClassV, Soil, and Drivers, leaving 10% each to RW60% and Rng7. I like to arrange tech in 5-click (10%) increments for easier bookkeeping except in the opening stages. Why are we not spying on the Meklar's? They are behind in computer tech, and have both Ion Cannons and NPG's!:drool: Nothing ultimately came of my increased spying there, but I did try. Silly's have a fleet inbound to Simius, 4 large's and a colony, so I guess we'll see how those laser 3 fighters work out. Last thing, I don't think 5 bases is enough for Xengara since it is in a nebula, so I bumped up some spending there.

Turnset
This was the turn of events. The plague ended after my first turn. Hyboria, a Psilon world, got destroyed by a Supernova :eek: It's a back-line world out of sensor range, no idea what happened there. The Klack's got 1300 from the merchant event in 2438, and promptly used those funds to declare war on us.

On the war front, I did not go after Phyco. It only had 26 factories beginning of my turn, we only had 80 fighters, and the Klacks had both ships and troops inbound, so I felt that a move would have been premature.

The Silly Mako and col ships carry NPG's, and they can do some significant damage to fighter stacks. Through some maneuvering, we never lost any las3's, but we're almost out of regular lasers. The rocks were massing an enormous fleet at Neptunus, but decided to send it on a 13-turn expedition to their backlines at the end of my turns. Whew! They ended up making two plays for Simius, though, so they are definitely interested.

I designed a missile boat, Sublights, maneuver 2, 5-rack Hyper-X, Mk I computer, and a scanner. I didn't see the utility of Class II shields, ECM I, or Titanium II armor.

On the tech front, Drivers and Class V's hit on my turn. I went back for the bombs, but went light on the spending in the hopes of stealing. No such luck though, and bulb is almost full. I chose Class V shields after the planetary's, we have some shields going up and border line worlds.

Post-turn
I've been building and massing missile boats at Exis in preparation for taking Phyco. We now have 35 boats and 165 fighters, more than enough to take and hold the planet. The Meklar's are fielding medium warp 2 boats with 2 neutron blasters, no specials, and only attack lvl 1. Phyco is up to 47 factories, but the Meklar's are currently allied with the Psilons, so your call when we should go.

Soil should pop on the next turn set, Fusion bombs if we're lucky. Only option for weapon's advancement after that is fusion beams, so not too bad there. The rocks have some huge's running around near the border that will have to be watched. I stopped factory construction at Trax to boost research while constructing our fleet.

Good luck Stup! :goodjob:

Roster:
dathon --> Just Played
Stup -->UP NOW
Zed --> On Deck
Olorin
Liq
I3rian

Liquidated
Jan 26, 2007, 11:31 AM
and liq quarrels with zed! neither is correct of course but I'll place forth Liq's view... tables are never pretty on these forums.


eco..................100%...80%...60%...40%...20%
At start 1/2.......50........40.......30.....20......10
improved 1/3.....33........27.......20.....13......7
enhanced 1/5.....20........16.......12.....8........4
advanced 1/10...10........8.........6.......4........2
Complete 1/20....5.........4.........3.......2........1

Ok here's the deal, at start of game half of all industry is consumed by waste management with two ways to combat it, eco and reduced waste.

the sweet point in total management for least effort is enhanced 1/5 + 60% which reduces total waste management to a mere 12%

Now zed and liq are both right about the wisdom of going for waste 60% and both are incorrect. You pick! The only right answer being the informed answer, where both zed and liq are dead on the money.

I'm assuming we didn;t have 80% already so the jump is from 20% to 12%, for what I see as relatively minimal effort. that difference makes the entire empire run much smoother and literally that savings translates directly into more tech, making up for lost time a bit later on.

Keep in mind with those two tech, it's safe to now skip all other waste management skills other than the no waste at all end game tech (which an osg will never see lol).


So all that said, zed and liq can politely disagree, which is what these thar SG's are all about!

Cheers!
-Liq

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 26, 2007, 12:03 PM
Instead of taking Phyco, we could zip a Las 3 over to Kholdan and see how many bases they have. If we want to take on the Meks, we could go straight for Meklon, and let the Bugs and Bots keep fighting over Phyco.

If we decide to take on the Meklars, we should first recruit the Silicoids to declare on them. That way, the Psilons will get pissed at both of us. After we take Meklon and Phyco, we can make nice with the Meklars and Psilons and we end up with everybody vs. the Rocks.

I would advise taking out Kholdan first though. While we would like to end up with a coalition against the Rocks, we need to give ourselves enough time to develop better weapons. We'll soon have fusion bombs, but not the speed to make them effective. We want to be able to start glassing the Rock hostile worlds that are on or within our borders as soon as we finish with the Meks. Otherwise the Rocks will have too much time to start absorbing Psilon worlds.

dathon78
Jan 26, 2007, 12:37 PM
I'm assuming we didn;t have 80% already so the jump is from 20% to 12%

Nope, we had 80%, so the jump was from 16% to 12%. The beauty of this game is that a lot of choices are situational, not rote. I believe that 60% was absolutely the WRONG call for these reasons:

1) We are the Mrrshan, meaning construction tech is EXPENSIVE.
2) Construction is the most critical tech for shipbuilding, as it determines how many toys a vessel can have.
3) This map situation has us saddled with several poor/small worlds with low factory production. Most of our production will be coming from population instead of factories. We would actually be further ahead advancing our planetology tech to increase the pop bonus rather than making industry more efficient to advance our economy.

The thing that really hurt about 60% is that it doesn't advance us up the tree. We are slow there anyway being poor in construction, and this puts us even further behind. This is a perennial problem for the cats, who need to use that military edge before their opponents' production bonuses snow them under. What good is having good gunners manning ships with too few guns/engines/shields/etc?

For industry-heavy races like the Meklars, that 4% might be worth it, but even then, I would be tempted to continue up the tree, hoping for 40% or 20%. Keeping that construction tech level climbing is just too critical to detour in most cases. The only reason I usually do so is if I need a gropo tech I've skipped, or have drawn no clean up in the planetology tree.

dathon

dathon78
Jan 26, 2007, 12:41 PM
Argh, hit the reply key too fast.

@Olorin -- I doubt we have enough to take Meklon at this point. The Meklars are fielding Hyper V's, and have Class IV shields now. Our ships will take a round of fire before they are even in range, and I'm guessing the Borg have around 20 bases on their planet. Kholdan might be doable, the bugs only having Nukes and Class II, but would still probably need to wait 10 turns for enough missile boats. Probably 15 bases there.

My suggestion would be to take Phyco on the next turn set, and keep building the boats. After that planet is secure, we should have enough ships for a strike on Kholdan, and after that, we should have enough for Meklon.

dathon

StuporMan
Jan 26, 2007, 01:56 PM
Well I staggered through a quick turnset, but it was productive.

Steal Fusion Bbomb from humans early on and switch to Fusion Beam. Design a fusion bomber, decide to go for full manuever 3 as it increases defense and only cost 1 bc. I dial back spending on Humans as they have no more useful techs. Humans choose unwisely (based on spying). I would have taught them a lesson with our new toys, but we can't land on Sol (their only planet at the time more later).

Soil Enrichment falls, switch to Atmospheric as it is the only one that moves us forward (and it is a flat killer tech with soil enrichment). Planetology spending increased everywhere to get this through (extra pop is super necessary for us now).

Steal NPGs from Meklar near end of turnset, next leader can make an NPG fighter. Xengara builds shield, and I am not 100% sure that it is within the nebula as normally shields get major discounts in nebula (in my experience they have been free).

Vote comes up, Psilons and Meklar abstain, rest vote coids. 29 votes total, we had 8 (2 shy of 1/3 threshold). I forget how many the rocks had but it was >= 12. Our front world colonies now all have shield V, Less poor Trax and Fieras (yes It is in range of coids).

Interesting turn of events though, Cygni alternated between Humans and Klacks this turnset. I believe we have a spud here! Phyco has been held by borg entire turnset and they have kindly done the hard work of building 100 factories for us to use. We have the advantage in gropo with battle suits and hand lasers (they have durralloy so it is a small margin), and since I shifted production from missiles to small bombers shortly after getting bombers we have a good base killing fleet (meaning we can quickly go to capture both Phyco AND Meklon in one fell swoop). Achieving this may give us the necessary votes to get us to 1/3.

A word of warning, Rocks have a death fleet building at Neptunis. It has 5 huges (6 in 4 turns), and 12 assorted larges. To make matters worse, they have AMB, Stingers, Stabilizers (only nuke engines thankfully), and a massive gropo advantage (fusion r, PDS, Battle suits, Andrium armor). We are in trouble if they decide to pick on us. We probably want to get in a joint war with the Psilon's against someone to build relations (they are already pretty good as I got the pleased with trade event). Then cash that in for a war against the Rocks once we mop up the smalls. Psilons now tech equals of Rocks according to status menu, so they can probably stand up fairly well.

StuporMan

IamI3rian
Jan 26, 2007, 02:19 PM
Well, I appologize for not considering advancing the tree in my tech choices. That was the primary reason I chose as I did, as otherwise (with the exception of range and speed, which I thought was more or less a toss up) I think I made the right choices. The advancement of the tree is more important though, than a slight economic boost, so I clearly blundered there.

Nicely done Stup, ya damn theif. Managed to get a good gun AND a good bomb :).

I'm amazed that the psilons were unable to stop the super nova. Truely, when it came up, I figured it would've ended in a few turns. I'm happy with the missile boat design, as incorperating scanners was a great decision.

Zed, I believe we only had a BC mark I during my set, but I figured that more factories was a better choice, since we're slowly falling behind in production levels.

Interestingly, I've never had to deal with sillys with such a gropo lead. Very strange group of rocks, these. Anyway, next time I have a decision to make, I'll try to consider everything it impacts, as I really think I shoulda thought about advancing the tree too. I'm having a blast with this osg. Great way to learn stuff :)

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 26, 2007, 02:50 PM
Good turnset!

Finally, we are going to be able to go on offense. It's tempting now that we have fusion bombs to try to take out a few Silicoid worlds. Anraq for one still has no bases, so it would be easy to glass. Unfortunately, that Silicoid fleet likely could take out any one of our planets, even with our entire fleet for defense. We might consider asking the Psilons to go to war with the Rocks now, and when the Rocks commit their FoD somewhere, we can glass Anraq. The recent Rock colonies near Psilon space are also undefended, so the Brains should be able to turn Silicoid worlds into spuds to fight over, rather than losing their own. If the FoD comes after one of the Ultra-rich worlds, we need to get our missile boats there and destroy any colony ships they bring along, then retreat. We can't hope to win against that many Huges.

I loaded the save to take a look, and noticed a pretty big Meklar fleet about to hit Kholdan. This might be a good opportunity to take out Kholdan, because their defenses will be weakened or destroyed by the Meklar fleet.

dathon78
Jan 26, 2007, 03:34 PM
IamI3rian -- don't worry about it :) Nobody's angry; just having a debate on the choices. We've all definitely made sub-optimal moves in the past, and will again in the future.

dathon

IamI3rian
Jan 26, 2007, 11:08 PM
I know no one's mad, there really were way worse things I coulda done. I'm also glad that the choices were pointed out as being bad, as that's the only way to find out that they were (even if Liq agrees at least a little with the reduced 60% choice). I'm just a bit upset with myself, for not thinking about advancing the tree. That's really a big part of deciding what to research. If that even REMOTELY entered my mind, I would've made different choices.

I dunno, I've won with the darlocks on impossible medium before, and once with the meks on impossible small. I think what's so frustrating about this game is the fact that it's 'only' hard, and easily one of the hardest games I've played. (Not to mention being taunted by the RNG with 2! Ultra riches in our first ring, and STILL not being able to settle them, :mad: ) Seems like every decision is a maker or breaker.

For example, since my turnset the Hyper-X ships seemed to be our most important ship. If I built those (which I thought of doing, and even designed one) instead of the Las 3's we would have 58 more, BUT I wouldn't have put the scanner on them. They certainly will remain useful longer than laser popguns, especially considering that we've stolen NPG's from the Meks (Meks Techs if you will :lol: ). Without that steal though, I think redesigning the Las 1 was a good move. At least in the short term.

Again, IIT 6, combined with the upcoming RC IV might have also been the way to go, even NOT considering the tree advance. I dunno, I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but the important thing is I LOVE playing MoO and OSG's are the best way to play anything, ever :). I've learned more playing this game, than I think I did any other way, except maybe, from reading Sirian's battle reports all those ages ago.

Incidentally, can someone explain to me EXACTLY how tech advancement works. It's the last tech that we would have access to per box, (in the manual I mean) like personal deflector shield if we didn't have class 3, right? Then, when that advance (personal shield for example) is learned, that opens up all techs we have access to in the next box right? Or is it just the next sinlge tech we have access to?

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 27, 2007, 12:07 AM
Tech choices:

Before the game starts, it determines what techs are in your tree, and which are not. You will have at least one choice out of every box (every 5 levels). When you are given a choice of what to research, the options will be everything in your tree that is from one box higher than your highest tech of that category + all the lower techs that you didn't learn yet. The exception is that the level 1 techs you get to start with don't give you access to the level 6-10 box.

Example: First choice in computers will be between ECM1, DSS, or BC2 (minus any that didn't make it into your tree). No matter which of those you choose, the next choice will also include items from the next box, ECM2, RC3, or BC3. ECM2, RC3, or BC3 would open up the next level. If for example, you started by researching ECM1, and then the only 2nd tier computer tech available was ECM2 so you chose to get BC2 next, then when you finished, your choices left would only be DSS or ECM2. In this case, where ECM2 is the only tech in the 2nd tier, you MUST research it to advance in the tree.

Actually, there is a way around having to research from a particular tier. If you capture or steal a tech that is in a higher tier than you have gotten to so far, that tech will open up the next tier (and lower tiers) for you.

Most of the time, you want to research a tech that is going to advance you in the tech tree. Occasionally, there will be times when you want to get multiple techs from the same tier (as happened here when we got Hyper-X and later went back for Fusion Bombs). Another common example is the third tier in planetology. If Enhanced Eco or IT30 are available, they are usually chosen over Toxic bases. But when you finish them, if you find Radiated is not in your tree, you'll likely want to get Toxic instead.

Most of the time, advancing the tree is a major factor in tech choices, especially in fields like computers where skipping a level of BC or two can be fixed by researching a higher level one later. Other techs are not made obsolete by higher versions, and are worth waiting to advance the tree, or going back for. Fusion bombs are a good example of a tech that is good to go back for. If you get them the first chance, they will be too big to fit into a small ship, and you're still at 2nd tier techs, so you won't have the engines needed to make a fast bomber yet. Since either NPG or Hyper-X are more immediately useful from that tier, you'll often see us skip fusion bombs for them and come back and get them later (if we don't steal them first).

IamI3rian
Jan 27, 2007, 12:22 AM
Thanks Olorin. I appreciate the detailed explanation. Yeah, I knew how it was formed, but not precisely how learning techs affected the next choice you got. That really helped. Apparently I was confused on a few things.

Which means in my example, that learning EITHER class 3 or personal shields would advance the tree.

Can't remember where I read the skip trick, but I've used it quite a few times. Those small fusion bombers are SO nice for glassing planets, sometimes into the early middle game (though hopefully by then you've got SOMETHING better).

Zed-F
Jan 27, 2007, 08:58 AM
Preturn: I notice that we are spending over 15% of our economy on ship maintenance... that's a bit high for my taste. I halt shipbuilding. I'd design a NPG fighter, but I'm not really happy with any design I can come up with, and would like to see if we can develop or capture/steal any tech that will help. Since I'm not planning to build any more ships right now anyway, I can afford to wait. I try to place a spy in Psilon territory as our view of what they have is 41 years out of date. I cut down on espionage expenditures otherwise to help our struggling economy. I send our fleet gathered at Exis off to Kholdan.

Early turns: The Klackon fleet and the fleet the Meks sent to Kholdan largely wipe one another out, leaving only the Klackon bases behind to defend their planet. The Meks gain air superiority for one round and send in a bunch of troops, but they have no gropo tech. Our own fleet arrives shortly thereafter to wipe out the Klackon missle bases, which it does with no losses (the bases targeted our bombers, which retreated while the missle boats wiped the bases.) Meanwhile, the Silicoids send a massive fleet at one of the ultra riches we've been guarding, Simius. Our 150 laser-3 fleet guarding there doesn't even manage to last long enough to pop the colony ship before getting vaped by 5 huges and a dozen larges. The huges seemed to be mostly armed with NPGs and didn't seem to have much trouble hitting our laser fighters. So one of our two back-yard ultra riches is now in Silicoid hands. I find out later that the Psilons have Toxic bases, but that's their highest planetology tech, so they won't trade it for now.

Late turns: We finished RC IV during my turns and are close to finishing Reduced Waste 60% and Dotomite Crystals (both in percentages.) I chose Advanced Scanners next because I think we can acquire a decent computer from the Meks, and soon we will reach a tech bracket where we can't choose anything other than BC or ECM, so going back for the expensive BC V didn't seem to make sense. Thanks to our non-aggression pact with the Meks, their troop transport headed to Kholdan get through and take out about half the planet's defenders. Our own transports arrive shortly thereafter and finish the job; we capture range 5 from the Klacks. Later on we manage to steal Stabilizers from the Meks, and I can finally design a NPG fighter that seems reasonable. The Meks are unhappy with our espionage attempts, however. They've also allied with the Silicoids, so I ask the Psilons to declare on the Meks, who we plan to target next. They agree, for the price of Stabilizers, which I accede to. By the end of my turns, the Psilons are also at war with the Silicoids and the Humans (also Mek allies.)

Summary: Overall, things are looking a bit unstable. Kholdan is maxed on pop but not factories, so I set it to build Soil this turn while it continues to work on factories. Our ship maintenance is back under 10% so now that we have a decent NPG design we can start building them if desired. The Meks have a fair amount of shipping heading to Meklon but I still think that we can take them out once Kholdan is relatively secure, especially if we build some NPGs to supplement our laser-3s (or perhaps leave the laser-3s at Kholdan to cover it until we can build a shield and some bases, and replace them with new NPG builds.) Note that the Meks might decide to send a fleet off to pester the Psilons, which would be an ideal time to make a play for Meklon and Phyco.

Roster:
dathon
Stup
Zed --> just played
Olorin --> UP NOW
Liq --> On Deck
Iam3Irian

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 27, 2007, 06:24 PM
Pre-turn: Lots of factory construction going on, good size fleet at Kholdan to make mischief. We still have those warp 1 las's around, I end up scrapping them when a few replacements are built to hold claims.

2460: Launch all bombers and about 20 each of Las 3 and X3 to Phyco, it is starting to build bases, but has little fleet defense.

2461: Range 7 comes in I choose Fusion drives over nuclear and pulsar.

2462: Phyco bases destroyed with no losses, Mek ships retreat. 47 Cat troops arrive vs. 65 Meks...4 Meks survive.

2463: 27 more Cats storm Phyco. 5 Meks kill 7 Cats. We find neutron blaster and ion cannon. Because Rocks will soon declare war to help Mek allies, I take initiative and send bombers to Keeta, Argus, Artemis, Anraq and Simius. I send some groups off now to coordinate my assault. All these planets have no bases, and either no fleet or only a few Barracudas.

2464: RW60% comes in ARS or IIT6* (to advance tree).

2465: Rocks send large fleet to Esper (other UR by Fieras). Includes 4 colony ships, so I won't waste ships trying to stop them. We can always bomb it later.

2466: Simius destroyed. Argus, Keeta, Anraq bombed. I found out that the Barracudas have 3 AM bombs, Spd 2, no shield. Worthless as defenders, but build lots of bases if they come our way! I accept peace from the Humans.

2467: Artemis destroyed. Argus, Keeta, and Anraq whittled down. I underestimate how many bombers were needed. I'm sending all spare bombers out to help. Rocks send fleet at Phyco (5 Huge, 14 Large). Phyco changes to tech as it's a lost cause. Meklar fleet is heading to Kholdan, which just finished shield. They are slow, so several bases will be up, and most of the Phyco fleet is transferred to help (if we can destroy Mek fleet here, Meklon will be easy pickings).

2468: Anraq destroyed. I pull bombers off Argus because Psilons are coming to take over attack (Argus is Tundra).

2469: Keeta destroyed. Scout Neptunis (Rock staging planet). It has 40 pop and only 7 bases. Many of our worlds max factories. Rhilus has one Rock Huge inbound. It's at max factories, so it puts everything into bases (including reserves). I begin evacuating Phyco (dumb planet finished soil enrichment with eco spillover).

2470: Mek fleet somehow magically turned around from Kholdan w/o a fight. Could it be cause I threatened them earlier? Rock fleet leaves Esper to go refound Simius. I send some bombers to take care of Esper.

Post-turn:
Managed to capture Phyco, stand up Kholdan, and glass 4 Silicoid worlds. Phyco will likely be destroyed next turn, but we did get two weapon tech from it. Also 3/4 of pop is on it's way to Kholdan. This will allow Kholdan to send troops at Meklon and have some replaced quickly. The Meklar fleet is headed back to Meklon, but they take 4T, and ours only needs 2 :lol:

I don't know if we have enough firepower to take out the Meklar Huge, but we might be able to seize Meklon before it gets back. We'd loot some tech, and force the Meklars to decide between destroying Meklon or trying to invade from their colony 10 parsecs away. We might even be able to knock out the Huge with our X3's. Kholdan can also build two rounds of ships, and still get them to Meklon before their fleet arrives.

Rock targets:
Neptunis is a tempting target with only 7 bases; if you can catch it without a fleet. This would disrupt the Silicoid staging of their fleets.

Paladia is probably a better target. It's that Rich Tundra they got from us during expansion, which is defended only by 9 bases, and 100+ Barracudas. But the ships are only bombers, so with a big enough fleet, we can smash the bases, and maybe even take it on the ground. It would be a treasure trove of tech if we pulled it off.

Another thought is that if we can take out both Neptunis and Paladia, as well as whatever weed colonies they found in our core, we might be able to trap one of their fleets outside of fuel range. They still have only R6, pushing them back might get those UR planets safely out of range.

Liquidated
Jan 27, 2007, 07:08 PM
I am just leaving for dinner out etc and will most likely not be in any sort shape to play turns tonight...:cheers:

Nope! no car keys tonight baby!


got the save and all, looks lots more exciting than my last turn set!

Cheers!
-Liq

IamI3rian
Jan 27, 2007, 11:11 PM
I just grabbed the save to check out all the chaos that Olorin managed to cause to the Silly war machine. The first thing I noticed was that we've made a LOT of progress since my last set.

The second thing I noticed was that incoming Silly huge on it's way to Rhilus. Unless they refitted the Kracken, it was the first huge they had when I took my first turn set. 13 X3's and 13 bases _should_ make short work of it. Of course, that's only if they didn't refit it since I saw it.

I would be QUITE a bit more worried about what the SoD headed to Simius is gonna do after they refound the colony. Being THAT close to Fierias, which only has 4 bases up, is a pretty scary thought. They also have about 300 baracudas North of Rhilus. Here's to hoping those are amazingly outdated Krackens, and not shiny new BC 6, inertial stabalized, Class 5 shielded and Andrium hulled stinger missile platforms.

Edit: Incidentally, I went back to my notes (yeah I'm a dork) and I found that in 2426 (40 or so turns ago) there was in fact, a different hull design of a 'Coid huge ship. The SECOND huge hull, was NOT the Kracken 'pic' or the Kracken tech, it was more advanced (based on time of 'first sight'). I didn't take _extensive_ notes though, (but I happen to play almost exclusively with that shipset) and I've been known to confuse ships which LOOK like the one they use as a MAKO (not in this case as notes include Mako sightings) for a huge. It could've been just a large they built, that was quickly scrapped, but I'm PRETTY sure (say my notes) that it was another huge design.

The same name, and hull is a bit 'throw-offish' but I'm still not convinced that it's refitted (i.e. scrapped and rebuilt) or a more advanced version, as I specifically remember, and confirm in my notes (yeah I'm STILL a dork) that it was the same ship. (the 'panther' according to the 'pic' with the software piracy check answers) Uh.... /end Edit.

We can build a medium hull with inertial stabalizers, and a Heavy Blast cannon for 90 BC's each... is that worth it? A more modern attack than our Las 3 is needed, and I'm not sure the NPG fighter is gonna be able to go it alone... thoughts?

Class 3 shields, inertial stabalizers, 2 ion cannons, and a Nuke bomb (for moving after attacking) will cost only 97 BC's on the same hull... more mobile, more durable, and about the same damage over all... Or is the NPG fighter still the best choice?

With the sillys having class 5 shields open, that's -2 from our overall damage with the NPG, on a modern ship. The pellet gun is 2-5 so it's 0-3 per hit. We're the cats , so it's not gonna be 0 as often as 3, but that's only 7 (or so) NPG fighters, compared to 1 medium hulled fighter. 10-70. I think the NPG fighter is definitely a 'must-have,' but wouldn't something with a little more punch be in order too? Maybe those BC"s would be better spent on building mroe X3's... Such hard choices to make I suppose.

I certainly don't envy Liq, and his 'exciting' turn set.

OlorinStormcrow
Jan 28, 2007, 02:33 AM
I considered putting together a more advanced ship, but held off as tech was coming in from both research and ground assault. What I'd really like is to steal the Repulsor beam from the Meks, and trade the Psilons for ARS, and put some Huge ARS ships into the field. We could outfit them with Heavy blast cannons, and if the Rocks are still favoring the short range beams, too bad for them.

A medium or large design with nothing beyond a repulsor beam would also be a good move. It could ward off those hordes of AM bombers the Silicoids have, and allow our missile bases to chew them up. A Huge would be preferable though, since the Sillys are bound to escort their bombers with some hefty firepower.

I still think we need to make an attempt at Paladia and Neptunis. We really need to create a buffer zone so that our "front line" doesn't consist of 90% of our empire. Kakata will probably fall, but Xengara and Rhilus may be able to build enough bases to hold their own. Especially if we can take Paladia on the ground and steal a better missile tech.

Tech trading with the Psilons is also an option. They were willing to trade when I checked, but they wanted Soil, RC3 or 4, or RW60% and I wasn't sure if I wanted to hand them that much economy. Then again, strengthening the Psilons at this point might not be a bad thing, and if we manage to get Repulsors from the Meks, ARS would be a very nice tech. The Psilons also have Armored Exoskeletons and BC3 as trading options. The least damaging option to give them would probably be RW60%, as they only have 2 factories/pop, so their production would rise much less than for any of the other techs.

StuporMan
Jan 29, 2007, 10:58 AM
Things sure seem to be getting interesting now. Good job all.

I am currently out of town attending a funeral for my wife's grandmother. I will not be back until Friday, so if my turnset comes up before then, feel free to skip me.

StuporMan

dathon78
Jan 29, 2007, 12:19 PM
Well, we've stirred the hornet's nest now :lol:

Good luck to ya Liq! When you get sober that is :mischief:

dathon

Liquidated
Jan 30, 2007, 02:06 AM
man my loss, sorry isp just crashed the weekend and got to re register the modem again, meh just skip liq don;t enough stalling to get fired as emp! :cry:

Cheers!
-Liq

dathon78
Jan 30, 2007, 07:50 AM
@Stup -- Somehow I missed your post earlier. My condolences on your loss.

IamI3rian is up. Lead us to victory!

dathon

Zed-F
Jan 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
I agree with the sentiment of trying to acquire repulsors, ARS, and/or better tech in general before fielding a beam-oriented ship. I've never been that fond of medium hulls as a beam platform; they are not built to take a sustained pounding like large/huge ships are, and are also not built to be super-dodgy and waste most enemy damage on overkill like fighters are. To me that means that mediums are best used as missle platforms or for certain specials.

IamI3rian
Jan 30, 2007, 06:57 PM
I just got in from work, and I'm gonna take a nap. I've re read the last few posts (Sorry to hear the bad news Stup) and I think it's probably better to wait. ARS + Repulsors is gonna be a great combo. Definitely more effective than the medium ion ships. We'll see what I can do to help out our tech levels. In the meantime, I'm gonna hit the sack. I should be up around 12 latest (eastern time) to play out my set.

EDIT: Sorry guys, real life interfered (sp) yet again last night. It's 6:15 pm eastern time wednesday, and I'm starting to take my set now.

IamI3rian
Jan 31, 2007, 08:17 PM
It's a good thing I keep notes. During combat in my second turn, comp crashed. Almost everything happened the exact same. A silly huge Kracken didn't attack Kakata the second time. All in all, a decent recovery I'd say. Sorry in advance for long report. I tried to shorten it as best I could.

Preturn: I didn't really understand how we were supposed to beat the Meklar fleet to Meklon. I didn't understand (well I kinda did) evacuating Phyco. Sent them to a full Kholdan. Anyway, I send the ships parked at Phyco to Kholdan, in preperation of invading Meklon. Send fleet from Kholdan to Meklon to try to scout the planet, before the bad guys arrive.

2471: Silly's attack (now defenseless) Phyco, destroying it. 18 intruders coming at Exis... so I up the bases construction there. Kracken headed to Kakata (the first time, it didn't go after the recovery.) I send Hyp X's there (both times) and increase defensive spending on Xengara. (Meks catch 2 spies)

2472: Combat at Rhilus.... ERROR (blue screen of death crash mentioned in opening statements) MUST START OVER FROM 2470. (Same things occur except the Kracken heading to Kakata in 2471.) 2 shots from our 19 bases at Rhilus total the Silly Kracken. Meklon scouted, and bases destroyed. (75 pop there, of max 100) Lost some Fusion bombers, but that's all. Esper (silly colony) destroyed (again) Head to Simius with bombers, trying to trap the silly SoD. Send 62 Million Cats from Kholdan to Meklon.

2473: Send help to Kakata from Xengara. 8 Silly Whales incoming. Kakata will have 7 bases and 15 Hyp X's when they arrive. 118 baracudas still guard Paladia. (they don't leave til my last turn) Start making NPG fighters.

2474: Combat at Meklon. We win, but lose more bombers (due to hugely outdated Las 3's interestingly enough). Silly Spies destroy 4 Kholdan missile bases. 62 Cats v 69 Bots on Meklon. 2 Cats Survive! 347 factories captured at Meklon! New tech Found:
Hyper V's
ECM Jammer Mark II
Class IV Deflectors (not bad)
Repulsor Beam!!!
ARS!!!
Duralloy Armor!!!
Contact lost with Meks. Send 30 Kholdan colonists to Meklon. Rhilus builds NPG fighters to help in the north. Neptunis is undefended, so I make a play for it. 1 Kracken, 3 Whales, 9 Baracudas headed to Kakata. Fusion Beam at 1% I design two huge ARS Repulsor Ships. Please redesign them if needed, I'm not particularly adept at designing ships like this with repulsors. Fierias begins building ARS 3.0 (huge ship name)

2475: VOTE 26 total votes, Sillys have 11 only Psilons vote for us (3 votes). We have 9 votes (abstain). Sillys end up with 14. I start to get a bad feeling about Kakata. Set Rha from researching to ship buliding (Hyp X's)

2476: No losses at Kakata. Neptunis has a total of 10 shields on it's bases. 5+5 I believe. Attack fails, but one base is destroyed. Lost all bombers. I cancel all spying this year too, to help boost research.

2477: Kakata attacked again, successful defense. KLACKS ARE ELIMINATED! By the Meks. We've got contact with them again. New 'coid Huge ship at Neptunis. They are amassing a big SoD there.

2478: Anraq destroyed (again) Huge SoD headed to Kakata. Meklon begins building it's shield. More colonists sent from Kholdan.

2479: Unknown spies strike Exis 17 facts destroyed. New Rock large (called Polaris) at Paladia.

2480: Simius destroyed (again) Meks ask for peace. I agree. Nothing else is done this turn. Next emperor has some things to take care of.

Meklon spending will finish the shield. Kholdan is set to industry, after regrowing their pop. Kakata is going to be attacked next year by the 'coid SoD. I'm not sure it will hold. Sent bombers to Esper, I think the Rocks will finally be out of our back yard.

PALADIA is undefended this turn. I strongly suggest that it's attacked. There is a Psilon Colship headed to Phyco. A small fleet from Meklon should keep them from it.

Not shown in the fleet screenshots (my bad) is the 'coid colship. It's armed with 1 5 shot stinger rack, and 2 2 shot racks. We could REALLY use a better missile.

Zed-F
Jan 31, 2007, 10:48 PM
Sounds like a pretty productive turn, IamI3rian! Sounds like we have momentum on our side now... hopefully fusion engines and fusion beams will come in soon. If we have a whole round of tech due soon it will be a good time for a redesign.

dathon --> UP NOW
Stup --> On Deck
Zed
Olorin
Liq
IamI3rian --> just played

OlorinStormcrow
Feb 01, 2007, 03:21 AM
Nice round. Really good news on the techs gained from Meklon!

I looked at your ARS designs. They were good. I'd change a few things though. We only have BC1, so I'd trade the IS for a scanner. I'd also knock the maneuver down to 2, since 3 doesn't add to combat speed. Combat speed 2 is fine for a Repulsor ship.

Which beams to use is a trickier question. With the changes I made above, I could choose between 32 heavy ions (3-15) or 18 heavy blasters (3-24). We are mostly worried about the Silicoids, who have Shield 5 and Comp 6. So we're looking at -2-10 vs. -2-19 against their most advanced designs. Since our comp level is at 2 (with scanner) + 4 for being Mrrshan only gets us even with the Silicoids on comps, so we're not going to be hitting max damage too much. An average hit would be 4 vs. 8.5 after shields. This would argue for mounting the heavy blasters, because they take up slightly less than twice the space of heavy ions. With better computers, the heavy ions might be a better buy, since we'd be hitting in the upper end of the damage range, and while this would be almost even between ions and blasters at Shield 5, against ships with less shielding, the ions come out ahead.

Where can we get better comps? Well the Psilons have BC3 that would be up for trade, and the Meklars have BC4. We'd probably have to be willing to part with Soil Enrichment, RC, RW60% or something comparable. I'd consider giving either Soil or RW60% to the Meks (Soil so that they can improve the planets for us before we take them, RW b/c they already have RW80%). It's a tougher call with the Psilons, they have a lot more planets, and we don't want to conquer them soon, so boosting their economy is more dangerous. Plus they would only trade us BC3, which is not as nice as BC4 from the Meks. Then again, the Psilons have some nice construction tech that would help us fit more goodies onto our new ship.

I think that we could get by with a BC1 ARS ship (only because we're the Cats), but I'd feel alot better trading for a better comp before building any of them. It would have been great if we could have gotten a better computer from Meklon, but ARS + Repulsor + FF4 + Duralloy was already hitting the jackpot for ship construction.

Once we get one of these ARS ships covering our front-line worlds, we will not need to worry nearly so much about getting glassed by a large stack of Barracudas.

We should try to take down Paladia if possible, but at this point, I would recommend glassing it rather than a ground assault. This Silly's have PDS, Andrium armor, and Fusion rifles. Getting enough troops to Paladia would be very difficult until we close the ground combat gap. I'd advise looking to restart the war with the Meklars once the Silicoid front is stabilized. We know we can take them on the ground, and they still have quite a few nice computer techs to take. We'd also finally have more planets than the Silicoids. Plus, the Meklars can probably be handled using only Kholdan, Meklon and Exis to build a fleet and produce troops.

dathon78
Feb 01, 2007, 08:15 AM
Got it. Report to follow soon.

dathon78
Feb 01, 2007, 09:58 AM
Pre Game

I agree with the current discussions that ships should wait a bit. I scrap the 3.1, but keep the ARS 3.0 to preserve Fieras's investment. My intention is to steal a computer from the Meklar's from Cygni, so I send our attack fleet at Meklon to do just that. I think we have enough ships for defense now, so all planets go on research, save border worlds who go on bases. Xengara in particular needs about twice as many bases if the rocks come calling.

Preparation For the Storm...

Kakata had BARELY enough bases to survive the Silicoid assault. That huge Monitor class ship was NASTY (see pic). Cost me all the NPG's, half the Hyper X boats, and 6 out of 9 bases to take it out, but the planet held.

Cygni turned out to be a size 40 minimal, with only 13 pop and 22 factories. :( Deeming it not worth the trouble, I steer the fleet back to Meklon for defense. Went ahead and traded Soil to the Meklar's for BCIV.

Humans declared war on us about two turns in, and the Psilons went and backstabbed us on my final turn :eek: No idea what happened there, they had no alliances (at war with EVERYBODY now), we were trading, at Peaceful, and they are Honorable. Maybe we were framed for espionage?

On the tech front, I managed to pop all but propulsion, which should go next turn or so:
Fusion Beam --> Omega V over Megabolt and Ion Stream
IIT6 --> Armored Exo, only choice
Class V --> Class VI, only choice
Scanners --> RC V over BC V and ECM VI. We have a good enough computer, and BC V doesn't advance us.
Atmos Terra --> IT +50
All our hostile planets set to terraform.

Post Turn

Once those Fusion Drives pop, a decent Huge ARS can probably be made. Now, as for armament, I did a little analysis. Most Silly designs are running around with defense 2-3, and with BCIV + Scanner, we are at AR +9, meaning we are running +6 to +7. IIRC, +6 should give us about 10% on our weapons. At our CURRENT tech level (this will probably change when Fusion Drives hit, but not by too much), we can field 14 Heavy Fusions, 18 Heavy Blast, or 31 Heavy Ions. +10% weapons range is ~+2 to min damage. So for a def3 ship, here's the average damage for a variety of shield levels:

Weapon.....................Shield 0..........Shield 3..........Shield 5
Fusion 14/6-30..............252...............210............. ..182
Blast 18/5-24................261...............207........... ....171
Ion 31/5-15..................310..............217.......... ......155

Heavy Blast Cannons should not even be considered. The Ion's win for shieldless ships (Barracuda's) and for Shield 3 ships (all current Silicoid designs, and probably Psilon as well). However, their edge isn't that large once you get to shield lvl3, and drops off quite a bit if anybody upgrades to Class V. My recommendation would therefore be the Heavy Fusions.

On the tactical side, there are Silly fleets inbound to Kholdan and Kakata, but nothing that the bases can't handle. I've re-directed the pop guns at Meklon to Kholdan to maybe bait the Whales to stay and get blown up by our bases. There are now 134 of those Barracuda-class bombers at Neptunus. If they go for Kakata, it's toast, otherwise, I think our other worlds can handle them, but I would keep an eye on them.

Spying is at 2% on the Humans to try and nab BCII or IIT9. All tech levels can help, but your choice if you want to continue there. We could probably also steal comp tech from the Meklar, and low-level tech from the rocks with our current computer levels.

ROSTER:
dathon --> just played
Stup --> UP NOW
Zed --> On Deck
Olorin
Liq
IamI3rian

Stup said he would be back this Friday, I'm inclined to wait for him, but your call Zed if we don't hear from him by Saturday. I might be out of town again, so you make the call.

dathon

Zed-F
Feb 01, 2007, 10:42 AM
There's nothing that says we can't put a mix of beams on the ships too, though I'd predominantly go with Fusion Beams. I would probably put on a mix of Heavy Fusions and Fusions, actually -- note that if an enemy ship moves into the repulsor beam range, we have enough initiative to get off a shot with whatever weapons we haven't yet fired that turn, which would include any one-space weapons we mount, before we push them back out of range. Something like 8-10 heavy fusion and 12-18 fusion will probably do more total damage than just 14 heavy fusions would. Or we can go with a mix of heavy fusions and regular ion cannons if we're worried about a lot of shieldless ships.

StuporMan
Feb 01, 2007, 02:45 PM
I am back in town now.

Thank you for the condolences, my wife and I appreciate your support.

I have lots to do but I should be able to get caught up on this thread and get a turnset in tomorrow one way or another.

StuporMan

IamI3rian
Feb 01, 2007, 09:30 PM
Nice turns dathon. I'm impressed that you managed to hold Kakata (at least for the time being.) I was convinced that it was gonna go during your set, and likely during the SoD attack with the monitor. Good choice on the bombs, we need to crack those 'coid shield 10 bases. As for the Psilons, I thought you always get the 'you were framed' message when that happens... did they mention WHY they were so pissy?

As for ship design, I'm glad I wasn't TOTALLY oblivious. Had the right idea for the most part. Didn't realize we could fire before repulsing a ship. Good stuff to know (thanks Zed). Is that a function of initiative, like because we're the cats, or is it a total initiative thing, including all bonuses? I've never fired before repulsing before (favoring Meks and Bears myself). Either way, I wasn't really expecting my ship to be built, it was mostly a placeholder. Seeing the numbers, I'm inclined to agree with the fusion beams. At the price of those ARS hulls, we don't want them going 'obsolete' any time soon. Once we pop one of these newfangled fusion ships, the silly's should just go ahead and vote for us. No way they can take Kakata, our weakest world near them with that thing in orbit.

Does getting the armored Exo's put us in any kind of gropo shape, for attacking the rocks? It would be GREAT to get some tech for taking Paladia, but I suppose if we still have to glass it, that's the next best thing.

I do wonder what the future holds. If the psilons and the 'coids make nice, we could still be in a galaxy of trouble.

dathon78
Feb 02, 2007, 09:13 AM
I'll admit, I shouldn't have been able to keep Kakata. I used a little bit of tactical screen cheese to outmaneuver the AI. Basically, if the AI can retreat a ship from a barrage of missiles, it will. So, if you have missiles that don't cover the length of the tactical screen (like our Hyper X's), you can keep incoming ships at the back of the screen while the bases knock them down. Here's how it works:

I positioned our boats right in front of the planet. That is not close enough to hit the furthest row. As the Monitor and Whale class ships advanced, I fired ONE volley at them. They retreated to the back rows to wait and avoid the missiles. I could do this a total of 5 times (3 times for the Monitor, twice for the Whales). All the while, Kakata's bases are hitting the Monitor. What they SHOULD have done, is charge through the missile volleys; the Whales have enough hit points to survive several volleys, and enough speed to catch my boats and destroy them with all those NPG's, and then the Monitor could advance and destroy the planet. The NPG's were sunk drawing Stinger missile fire and protecting the missile boats from the other large stack. Lost half the boats by drawing the Monitor in a zig-zag approach to the planet to buy another volley from the bases, and even then, they still got off a round (or two? don't remember) of bombs before it sunk, at which point the whales retreated. Never would work against a human, but worked here :)

Rock's still have Fusion Rifles and PDS, but the only way to even that advantage is to take it from them, so I vote to invade. Will require some coordination from backline worlds, but a planet or two should see us with the tech we need to decisively win.

If the Silly's come out with a 2-beam or lots o' missiles design, they can counter our ARS. Not likely, but I have seen it happen before.

We did not get a framed message, but I'm not convinced you get one every time. Sometimes when the AI catches you spying they call to complain, other times they don't (you can tell if their relations drops after a successful steal), and I suspect being framed works the same way. We got the "We knew all along you were a threat, so we will strike first" message. I suppose we also might have crossed one of the "you're getting too big" thresholds and the hit to relations was enough to set them off.

dathon

IamI3rian
Feb 02, 2007, 09:38 AM
I've used the missile 'trick' before, but not on purpose. The simple math of how far the missiles go, and how fast the AI ships move, in relation to the missiles is apparently above my head. I usually end up moving the missile ships too close to them to avoid return fire, and get higher casualties than I probably should. Never occured to me to use the AI's fear of missiles to smash them with the bases :) Brilliant idea, whoever thought that up, though I suspect it's been around for years.

Zed-F
Feb 02, 2007, 10:17 AM
Didn't realize we could fire before repulsing a ship. Good stuff to know (thanks Zed). Is that a function of initiative, like because we're the cats, or is it a total initiative thing, including all bonuses? I've never fired before repulsing before (favoring Meks and Bears myself).
It's a function of total initiative. I'm not sure of the exact mechanics, but you can see the same thing in operation whenever the AI moves a stack next to one of your stacks that has not yet fired. If your stack has high initiative relative to your opponents, you'll often fire first before your opponent can. This is why it's often good to put a battle scanner on your ARS/Repulsor ships; not only is it a cheap +1 computer and lets you know what designs the AI is using, but it also gives you a big +4 initiative. You'll want a good battle computer as well.

Never occured to me to use the AI's fear of missiles to smash them with the bases Brilliant idea, whoever thought that up, though I suspect it's been around for years.
Yep, it has. I suspect a lot of different people thought of it independently as well.
Rock's still have Fusion Rifles and PDS, but the only way to even that advantage is to take it from them, so I vote to invade.
Yeah, I'll have to concur once we get Exoskeleton. Now that we have Soil and Atmos, we should have enough pop to be able to coordinate the huge invasion forces we'll need to take those first few worlds until we can acquire enough tech to reduce the casualty rate. Not sure how our computer tech compares to theirs, but espionage might help there as well.

StuporMan
Feb 02, 2007, 10:55 AM
Preturn: Tweak our poor planets to build factories (our IIT is good enough to build 4 or so fact per turn + 100+ tech). I also trade spying on Humans (down to 1 click to preserve our current 2 until they get caught), for spying on Meklar, Rock, and Brains (gotta see what they have).

First turn fusion drives fall, Choices Nuke, Pulsar, Range 9.

I decide to let Brains build Phyco for us, so we can take it and their juicy techs a few turns later with all the cheap pop we have in the area. I notice rocks gained another armour tech. That bodes ill for ground attacks as even with Exoskellies we will be -20 or more behind. I redesign the ARS ship, adding fusion drives and 14/7 heavy/regular fusion beams (speed 2). Resume building at Fieras (3 turns).

Xengara has an insane amount of bases (54) I dial it back to 1 per year.

Steal IIT9 from brains, I was hoping for Exos vs outdated computer tech. Only changes to their tree are IT +40, Andrium armour, Hard beams and a few weapons techs we already have. Late in the turnset they also pick up cloning. Rocks retake Phyco (dangit brains protect your gains!). Rocks also make a play at Mentar with their bomber FOD, Brains easily destroy it for us. Brains slowly losing ground to Rocks based on gropo differences. There are 3 spud worlds to our East. Their recent discovery of cloning will hopefully boost their ability to fend them off.

Psilons are making a heavy play for Kakata. They have 2 fleets inbound, each with an army of smalls of unknown configuration (named seekers, likely fusion bombs). Group 1 has 144 group 2 has 272 and each has a colship. Our first ARS huge is on its way and should arrive in time to meet the first group of brains. There are currently 3 more in production at Fieras, Meklon, and Kholdan.

Rocks have upgraded their colships to hold stingers so be wary of them. Their polaris model also holds stingers w/ antimissiles, these can prove deadly to bases in numbers. On the good side, I bombed out the hostile worlds in our backyard. They are all now currently unoccupied. We also have a full bulb on Omegas.


In other news, the Quake event hits coids at Helos for 26 pop and 406 fact (couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of rocks! or at a better time, it hit just before the vote!)

Silly 12, +1 humans, +3 Psilons, +2 Meks
Us 12

We can block the vote easily now. And that will only get better when we get some terraforming.

Edit:
We should probably make a play for Jinga (Psilon world in far SE). It is isolated and they only have hyper X + class 4 shields. It should be easy pickings for one of our new ARS that are due off the line shortly. Just make sure to send plenty of troops as they have a gropo advantage (+10 I believe).

StuporMan

Zed-F
Feb 02, 2007, 07:54 PM
Ok, got it. Will try to play tonight or tomorrow.

Zed-F
Feb 02, 2007, 11:28 PM
Preturn: I look around at the state of the galaxy and things look pretty good overall. Unfortunately our tech situation relative to the Silicoids is a bit weak. Most of our ship designs are pretty out of date as well. And our research distribution looks pretty wacky... that's easily fixed, though. I even out research except for a slight emphasis on computers and planetology. I find that this is the best general purpose research allocation except in the earliest part of the game. Sure we need Omega-V bombs... but there's a lot of other things we need too. Even when you're researching something that seems useless, like range 9 fuel cells, don't forget that making progress in every tree is important too.

So, having done that, I decide my objective for the turn is to try to make some progress toward evening things up with the Silicoids. I decide that the best way to do this is to capture a couple planets for tech. The Psilons are an easy target, with their weak shields, but we can't really get too much off them that's useful -- Andrium armour, Exoskeletons, Toxic bases, and that's about it. Bleh. I decide to go for a juicier target -- Paladia. It's conveniently near several of our worlds, it doesn't have a ton of bases up, it's a relatively small world, and it's rich. Plus the Silicoids have good RC tech, so it has a lot of factories; we'll get some good tech for taking it. The Psilons on the other hand, are stuck with RC II -- only their biggest worlds have enough factories to be worth capturing, from a tech point of view. But we already have a lot of shipbuilding points invested at Meklon and Kholdan, so we might as well use them to good effect on the Psilon frontier. Here, I pick Mentar for my target. We'll need a strong world near Psilon territory to be able to stage future invasions, and like all homeworlds it's a juicy target with lots of potential to be a powerhouse.

I scrap our existing bombers, our NPGs, and our las-3s as obsolete and not enough left to be worth preserving. Instead I design two new bombers, FusB 4.0 and FusB 4.1. The former is more expensive but has BC IV, whereas the latter is less expensive and has BC I, but the main reason for having two types of bomber is to force the AI to shoot at one stack while the other goes in to wipe out the bases. Even though the Silicoids have shield 11, they have little ECM, so our bombers will hit regularily and, with BC IV, have enough of a accuracy advantage to push the average damage on a fusion bomb up from 12.5 to about 16 or so. Research in our empire grinds to a vitual halt as I start shipbuilding nearly everywhere; I plan to build two more ARS 4.0 at Fierias and Meklon but otherwise build mainly bombers.

Silicoid Front: In the west, I build a fleet of about 200 bombers and one ARS 4.0, which concentrates at Trax. Once it's ready to go, I coordinate an invasion force of nearly 400 cats in two waves to take Paladia. This is a serious hit to our economy, but the invasion force outnumbers the rocks at Paladia by 6:1, so I feel confident. Before I can send the fleet in, I notice that the rocks have just researched Planetary Shield X -- this makes it all the more imperative that we strike now, while our bombers can still do damage through the Silicoids' shielding.

I send in the ships, timed to arrive with the first wave of troops. The Silicoids have very little shipping guarding Paladia, and what there is is obsolete; I mainly have to worry about the bases. Our bombers can only manage to kill 2-3 bases per turn, but the Silicoids only have 9 bases, and can't kill our bombers fast enough to stop them. We lose 50 bombers but take out the planetary defenses. Our first wave of troops lands... 231 cats manage to kill 53 rocks, leaving 12 behind. Fortunately I have another wave of about 155 cats incoming, and the next turn they finish the job, with enough left to fill the planet. We capture Class VI deflectors, Terraforming +40, BC VI, Stinger Missles, Nuclear Engines, and the big one, Tritanium Armor -- the Silicoids highest level construction tech, and a big boost to our construction level, as well as a boost to our gropo capabilities. No fusion rifles or PDS, but I'm not complaining; the terraforming is nice too since we didn't have any, and Stingers are always handy. With the capture of shield VI, we start researching Cloaking.

Psilon Front: In the east, our ARS and hyper-X boats easily brush off the Psilon attacks at Kakata; they are all small ion cannon fighters, which don't pose a threat to either our bases or our ARS. I build a new fleet of 1 ARS and nearly 300 bombers; I can build so many bombers largely because I converted a mostly-built ARS at Kholdan. I send these, along with half the hyper-X boats from Kakata, to Mentar, and coordinate an invasion of about 150 cats at Mentar, which had about 75 pop at the time. Our cats win with about 40 remaining, but Mentar only has 150 factories (must have got bombed at some point) and we only pick up ECM III. Plus, of course, a nice planet, but one in serious need of development. It'll be some time before we can use this world as a troop base for further conquests in the area.

Late turns: Nothing much other than rebuilding our population from the attacks on Paladia and Mentar, terraforming and building infrastructure everywhere, and trying to stand up Paladia and Mentar. We also got a couple minor tech thefts during my turn, but nothing to write home about. Paladia is nearly done maxing out; it has its Class V shield and a single base, and will need more. I'd use it as a source of reserve funds from here on out, at least until we're ready for another round of shipbuilding. Mentar has still got a long way to go, and many of our other worlds are also still working on new factories to go with their increased populations. There are a few smallish fleets coming in at Mentar, and some silicoid troop transports at Paladia, but nothing serious. Mentar is still pretty vulnerable if someone does come knocking, though. Additionally, you can probably consider our current bomber fleet as obsolete against the Silicoids, now that they have Class X shields, but they are still good against the Psilons. Most of our bombers are concentrated at Kakata, though I left a few back around Exis for spud-patrol duty to knock out Silicoid colonization attempts in our back yard. We'll need to wait for a better bomb before we can seriously consider going after the Silicoids; armoured exoskeleton would be nice too, but not strictly necessary as this turn's results should demonstrate. Omega V bomb is now in the %ages, so hopefully we won't have to wait too long before thinking about going on the offensive again.

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147124&stc=1&d=1170480540

Roster:
dathon
Stup
Zed --> just played
Olorin --> UP NOW
Liq --> On Deck
Iam3Irian

OlorinStormcrow
Feb 03, 2007, 12:08 AM
Got it. I'll post my turn by tomorrow night.

OlorinStormcrow
Feb 03, 2007, 03:53 AM
Pre-turn: I look through Silicoid space, and I find that Crius has no bases yet. I also see that the Humans are on Phyco, seems high time they were gone.

I task the Kakata fleet with taking Crius, but send the bombers east to take down some lightly defended Psilon and Silicoid worlds. I also move the bombers from around Exis to Meklon, and build a few more to augment them for an attack on Sol.

Turn:
In the South and East, I focus on glassing enemy worlds that don't have fleet support and few bases. Sol, Keeta, Artemis, Argus, Crypto, Ukko, Hyboria, and Cygni are all eventually glassed. At the end of the set, I brought one of our ARS ships down to join with the smaller bomber fleet, and took Gorra from the Meklars, picking up BC5. Somewhere during the turn, the Psilons genocided the Humans on Phyco.

In the North, I send an invasion to Crius. In 2514, 224 Cats killed 60 Rocks (33 Cats left) and took it. Troops arriving next turn filled the planet. We stole:
Planetary Shield X
Range 8
Battle Computer 3
Personal Deflector Shield :goodjob:
Imp. Terraforming +30

Meanwhile, a lot of planets finished maxing out pop and factories, and several had to repop after the Crius invasion. We discovered Omega-Vs, I picked Auto-blaster next over Megabolt and Ion stream from old tier, and Pulson missile or tachyon beam from new tier.

I designed a medium bomber:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k186/OlorinStormcrow/omega4.jpg

The shield 2 was decided because of the 54 hit points. Silicoid bases are firing stinger missile, 15 damage per shot. It would take 4 missile hits to kill each bomber. With shield 2, 4 x (15-2) = 52. So they need an extra hit to kill each bomber. I added the ECM because there wasn't room for an extra bomb, or battle scanner. Even so, once I started building them, I started to see why medium bombers just don't work. Even Paladia could only build a handful each turn. Then I took a closer look at Silicoid space, and saw that many of their worlds still only have Shield 5. I switched back to building Fusion bombers, which will still work against those worlds. I am favoring the 4.0 design because they hit for more points due to better comp.

Post-turn:
Our defenses are solid. Rocks haven't even tried to retake Paladia, and did not bother Kakata or Xengara during my turn. They do have ships inbound to Trax, the poor world near the border with no bases or shield. I redirected a new ARS there to handle it. Mentar is mostly stood up. It got a PS5 up and 2 bases, then the PS10 came in, so they are still in shield mode. Crius is working toward a shield, they've finished Atmospheric terra and have a good number of factories. Gorra was just taken this turn.

Here's the map:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k186/OlorinStormcrow/2520map.jpg

We have the Psilons down to four worlds, and with the Kakata bombers now with the Mentar fleet, we can think about taking one of the bigger ones. The Meklars are basically finished as well. They only have one real colony left. We could easily wipe out one or both AIs at our leisure. The Rocks have a couple weed colonies just started up again, but I've collected a good bomber fleet at Rhilus ready to go.

You'll probably want to build a new design, either a stinger missile boat to replace the HyperX's, or a new Huge design. Keep in mind that most of the new Silicoid models have anti-missile rockets. An ARS Huge with tritanium armor would be very durable, and loaded up with combat speed and Omega V's, it could be the bomber we need to crack the PS10 planets. Feel free to scrap the Omega 4.0 if you need the design slots.

I'd recommend just glassing Jinga and Toranor in the SE corner. The loss of Jinga will limit the Psilon range, and even if we took it, I doubt we could stand it up in time to really contribute to the end of the war. Same goes for Toranor. And if the Meklars are genocided, and Jinga gone, then Gorra would be out of range of everyone, freeing up that fleet from defense duty. Some of the last three Psilon colonies might be worth taking, since they are pretty large, and getting Toxic bases would still be nice at this point. It's really disappointing that we never got to use those UR right next door to Fieras.

Good luck Liq!

Zed-F
Feb 03, 2007, 06:36 AM
A large or huge bomber will work, but is expensive. On the plus side, we have the tech to build one now, though it would be nice if we could miniaturize the Omega bombs first. If we can take another good Silicoids world or two, we stand a decent chance at acquiring Antimatter bombs, which ought to fit on a small at this point.

StuporMan
Feb 03, 2007, 09:58 AM
Jinga may be useful to capture, even though it may not contribute to the war effort. Jinga has over 100 factories IIRC which means we will get 1-2 techs if we take it. This could yield Armoured Exos or Toxic colony which both make taking some more silicoid worlds an easier proposition. Toxic also opens up an ultra rich in our back yard and they never take long to stand up.

I think autoblasters were a good call on weapons tech. It moves us up the tree more cheaply to get Omegas miniaturized. I probably would have made the decision to go with pulsons to further our missile tech, but with stingers that is not necessary. As an aside, I thought tritanium would be enough to miniaturize omegas to a small. What tech do we need before these can roll off the assembly line (remember we also need/want combat speed 4)?

Two very good turnsets after my weedy performance.

StuporMan

Zed-F
Feb 03, 2007, 11:09 AM
Tritanium is a construction tech, which gives us more room on our ships but doesn't miniaturize weapons. In order to make Omegas smaller, we need more weapons tech.

OlorinStormcrow
Feb 03, 2007, 01:43 PM
I thought about the Pulsons, but they are only 5 more damage than stingers, and wouldn't be effective vs. Silicoid bases. I figured that advancing faster and beefing up or beam power for ship to ship combat were better than a small increase in missile tech.

Rather than taking Jinga, I'd say glass it with a small fleet, and send the Mentar fleet out to take one of the other three Psilon worlds. They are all better than Jinga, and they are close enough to Silicoid space to be useful for ship building once they are stood up. We'd get the tech from them just as easily as Jinga. All we really need to get from the Psilons is Cloning and Toxic bases. Our bulb is almost full on Exoskeletons, so getting them through conquest is not crucial.

Hopefully we can take out another Silicoid world before they all have PS10 and get AM bombs off it. Those should fit on a small, and it would be game over at that point.

dathon78
Feb 03, 2007, 04:10 PM
Excellent work guys; I hear the band for our honor banquet warming up :band:

dathon
Stup
Zed
Olorin --> just played
Liq --> UP NOW
Iam3Irian --> On Deck

StuporMan
Feb 04, 2007, 02:36 PM
A quick note, if the Psilon ambassador is not recalled we may can negotiate peace with them. This will allow us to potentially trade for all their techs but cloning (top tier). Likewise, if we give them something like RC 4, they will improve their planets and we will get a substantial relations boost. If we decide their worlds are better off in our hands we can always take them (and any of their remaining techs) later. :mwaha:

StuporMan

Zed-F
Feb 05, 2007, 07:35 AM
Liq, are you out there?

If we don't hear from Liq today, Iam3Irian, you might as well grab it.

IamI3rian
Feb 05, 2007, 09:21 AM
Will do, but I'm working til 11 tonight. I'll come check out wha'ts up over here, when I get done.

Tuesday Feb 6, 5:37 pm eastern: Got it, I'll play after naptime :)

IamI3rian
Feb 07, 2007, 01:33 AM
Not tons of time, so a SUPER short report:

Preturn: set up attack on Jinga.

2521: Meklon and Kholdan finish Shields.

2522: Mentar Sheilded

2523: Nothing to note, but I botched attack at Jinga, and 8 brains survived. DOH!

2524: Psilons ask for peace :)

2525: Spies hit on Psilons. Comp/Planet/Weapon... I steal Toxic :) Capture Jinga, Get Andrium armor, and cloning. I begin assaulting Kronos.

2526: Silly's ask for Peace :lol: Send more cats to Kronos... it's a uh... peace envoy, yeah.

2527: Silly Spies pop, Planet/Weapon, I choose planet and get Terraforming +20 WE COLONIZE SIMIUS!

2728: Silly Spies pop again, all but construction. Choose comp, get ECM IV. Terraforming +50 comes in.
Bio Toxin antidote
Terraforming +60
Complete eco restoration <--- this one

Got slaughtered at Kronos, didn't quite coordinate the attack right. Again :( .Start terraforming the empire.

2729: Spies on Sillys again. Weapons picked, got anti missile rockets. Spies on Psilons, chose weapons, got Megabolt cannon. knocked Kronos down to around 30 rocks.

2730: Range 9 comes in Auto blaster comes in

Ion Stream projector
Pulsons
Tachyon Beam
Hand Phasors <--- this one

Energy Pulsar
Star Gates
Ion Drives <--- this one

Left everything else as it was, Hope it looks good, sorry about the short report (or you're welcome, whichever :)) and FINALLY, sorry about botching ALL invasions I attempted. Good Luck and remember, paper beats rock... er something.
p.s. somewhere in there everyone else finished shields too. I had another blue screen crash that set me back 4 turns... Stupid comp. I need to restart MUCH more than I do. Incidentally, the STUPID crash is what made me use all my time replaying those turns Grrrr....

dathon --> UP NOW
Stup --> on deck
Zed
Olorin
Liq --> missing?
I3rian --> just played

dathon78
Feb 07, 2007, 09:17 AM
I inherited the save file in pretty good shape. Fiddled with a few sliders to max out some worlds next turn, and we're off.

On the war front, the troops en-route to Kronos were handily defeated. However, with the help of some shiny new battle suits, a whopping 150 cats came in to avenge their deaths and take the planet. I also invaded and held Toranor and Phyco in the East. Why? Because I could :mwaha: That, and I wanted to set us up for a domination win on the next council vote on Stup's turn, and those planets added greatly to our population. I also put in motion a plan to greatly decrease our opponents population, but I'm getting ahead of myself... :satan:

Pulled ten techs this turn from theft, spoils, and research, including Armored Exo and Fusion Rifles. However, the key was anti-matter bombs, stolen from the Psilons. With which I designed a new bomber. 2 anti-matter bombs, Fusion Drives, Stabilizer, Cloaking Device, BC IV. Didn't even bother building factories at a lot of our worlds with RC V. We now have two swarms of 800+ bombers at Kakata and Rhilus, poised to glass the Silicoids into oblivion :nuke:

Fleets incoming at Mentar and Kronos, but nothing the bases can't handle, though I would leave Mentar with the current def spending before they arrive. Other than that, our worlds are maxing pop. Teach those rocks who's boss, Stup, and allow us to claim our rightful place as rulers of the Galaxy, and the Evil Pseudo Random Number Demons!

dathon

OlorinStormcrow
Feb 07, 2007, 05:13 PM
Looks like the fat lady is warming up. Well fought game everyone! Coming back from that bad a start with the Cats is quite an accomplishment.

StuporMan
Feb 08, 2007, 05:13 AM
Yes, I think the most difficult part in this next turnset will be to leave enough planets colonized to allow a vote! I will try to get out victory knocked out today.

Stup

StuporMan
Feb 08, 2007, 07:48 AM
Well, I failed in my task to keep enough planets around to have a vote in 2550.

Instead, I decided to make future generations remember me as StuporMan the GlassMaker! :nuke: :king: :nuke:

Within 5 turns it is all over. Our new antimatter bomber proves too much for Rock defenses and the Brains get splattered by our older fusion bomber designs, both empires ending in the last turn. Now all former Brain - Rock coalition planets are part of the glass-frontier of our empire!

Congratulations all on a hard earned victory!

In your face PRNG!

StuporMan

dathon78
Feb 08, 2007, 08:03 AM
Well, I failed in my task to keep enough planets around to have a vote in 2550.

Heh, after I posted the save I went on my own glass-making spree with similar results. Man was it fun :mwaha:

Congratulations all on a hard-earned victory!

IamI3rian
Feb 08, 2007, 09:42 AM
Nicely done all. That was so much fun, and really hard :). Go Kitties!

Zed-F
Feb 08, 2007, 10:08 AM
Good job, everyone. Who's making the next game? :)

dathon78
Feb 08, 2007, 02:14 PM
I'll start a discussion thread over at RB

StuporMan
Feb 08, 2007, 02:21 PM
Too late:

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1806

Or Not, here is Dathon's URL:

ttp://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1807