Welcome to Aabra01. This is a Training Day Game. It's going to be played at Emperor, but is open to players of any skill level of Emperor and below. If you're out there lurking and wishing you could get beyond Warlord, come on in! We don't care what skill level you're at; just be candid about your skill level and come ready to learn.

Post #2 will be reserved for an informational post. Any important announcements or decisions will be posted there from time to time. I will also post the roster there, but please bear in mind that I will not update it after every turnset to show who's just played, who's up, who's on deck, etc. I will try to update it for long-term skips and the like.

Post #3 will contain the opening save.

The Story:
At this point, I've read most of the War Academy articles, followed several games played by "local experts," and gone through (or am going through) two TDGs myself. Here's what I've learned: if I really want to play at the higher levels (demigod or above), I have to learn to squeeze every last schilling, every last morsel and every last shield out of a peasantry that is, somehow, kept smiling while wars rage all around them.

What I've learned from all that I've seen is that micromanagement is the key to turning a one-shield bonus in 4000 BC into a spaceship before 2050 AD. Worker turns, efficient movement, which tiles to work, how to minimize waste – these are the things I must learn if I ever want to change my "Civ 3 Skill Level" in my profile from "Regent" to "Demigod." In other words, micromanagement is the key, and it is the primary focus of this TDG. The Grumpy Old Monk has kindly agreed to help us with these skills.

At this time, I expect turnsets to be 20 turns in the Ancient Age, 10 in the Medieval and Industrial Ages, and 5 in the Modern Age. This, of course, can be adjusted if necessary.

As to timelines, I don't see the usual "24 to get and 48 to play" as being feasible, simply because of the nature of this beast. How about 48 to grab, 96 after that to play? I'm open to suggestions here.

So what are my guidelines?

Rule #1 of Aabra01: We're all friends here. We will learn as much from our mistakes as from our successes. Criticism of your turnset or questioning your decisions is not a personal attack. Don't use it as one, don't take it as one.

Rule #2: Detailed logs. We can't spot mistakes unless we can see what's been done. Granted, we can't all be CommandoBob, but the whole team needs to be able to make sense of your turnset.

Rule #3: There are no stupid questions. If you're in the middle of your turnset and either: (a) realize that you're in over your head; or (b) have hit a crossroads that needs a group decision, stop and ask.

Rule #4: When in doubt on cheats, exploits or bugs, consult. If you can find someone online to ask, great. In the absence of that, I like to use GOTM rules as a guide. They are always accessible, even if no other team members are online. If they need modification or if we decide not to use one of those rules, I'll put it in the informational post once a decision has been reached. GOTM rules can be found here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/rules.php

Rule #5: Have fun. I hope everyone enjoys this one and learns lots.

Bede's Rules: I don't expect any conflict between Bede's rules and the GOTM, but if there is one, please follow Bede's rules:
I am going to add a couple of items dealing with standards of play to your rule set, if I may. The GOTM rules address many exploits of mechanics but miss some of the more subtle issues of game design.

1) No false peace treaties. Pointy stick research is a long and honorable tradition but breaking a peace treaty secured with technology and installment payments before the treaty has run its course will not be allowed. Any treaty secured by gold per turn or resources on our side must be honored for the full twenty turns.

2) "The trading reputation is golden" say LKendter, and so it is. That means no deliberate act on the player's part that will cause the premature end of any deal involving gold per turn or resources from our side. Losing the "Trade Rep" has consequences that will affect the entire course of the game, and not for the better. Being unable, ever again, to buy tech for gold per turn or resources, or supplying resources for a lump sum payment, changes the dynamics of the game so much that what had been a game of building, diplomacy and warfare, becomes a game of war or rumors of war, unending. I can play that sort of game, at Deity, and win, but I don't like to; it takes way too many options off the table.

Unfortunately the game does not recognize the difference between random events and player actions when considering the impact of a broken trade route. So volcanic eruptions can destroy a road and break a deal, barbarian galleys appearing on a coastline can break a trade route, war not involving the two principals in a deal can break a trade route, and the demise of one of the parties to a deal can break a trade route. So when considering a resources or gold per turn deal for cold cash, World Maps, or technology, look around carefully and make sure those risks are minimal

3) RoP rape is not a permitted tactic, nor will the use of RoP's or scouts to deny a resource to an opponent by parking a unit on it before it can be roaded.

4) No worker automation, ever, and limit the use of go-to orders to situations that are detailed in the notes to the save. It is really annoying to press enter on the first turn of a set and have little figures scampering all over the landscape. It is even more annoying to chase them down and turn them off.

The Statistics:
Version: Civ III Conquests
Level: Emperor
Civ: Random, 1st start rolled
Victory Condition: Space Shuttle, but all victory conditions will be left on.
Opponents: random
Barbarians: restless
Land mass: continent
Water: 70%
Map size: standard
Age: 4 Billion
Climate: normal
Temperature: temperate
Max Players: 6

To answer two questions that will no doubt arise:

1) Why spaceship victory? To learn the game from start to finish.
2) Why a random civ? To keep us from cherry-picking.
3) Why the first roll? See #2, and to teach us to MM with whatever start we draw.

Current Roster:
Trainer: Bede

The Rest of Us:
Aabraxan
Mr_2_You
Elephantium
Phaedo
CoolioVonHoolio
Cyllus

Holding for open slots:
SimpleMonkey
sercer88

Here it is. We will be (drum roll):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/4000BC.JPG


The Byzantines . . . Ummmm, ok. Seafaring and scientific with the dromon. Never once have I played them. This will be interesting.

And the save is below:

If you wish to work on micro, I'd advise against playing 20 turns each even in the ancient age. Will lurk, might toss in a thing or two from time to time.

This looks like fun!

TGOM checking in.

Gotta go check the save to refresh my memory of what Theodora brings to the party.

Would join, as I would also like to get past Regent and to the *cues dramatic music* higher levels, but sadly, my Conquests disk doesn't work (on 1.22 patch, at least) :( . Besides, even if it didn't, I have too little time to play much anyway. :(

I'll join.

I'm in Aabra. TGOM as a trainer is a nice incentive:)

Peanut Lover checking in ;)

...and thanks for picking up on my post in the other thread, Aabraxan! :D

Just what I'm looking for Aabra, would love to join. I'm pretty new to the boards, read most of the articles yet Micro-managing still eludes me. I play comfortably on Emporer where I can play pretty loose without clear game ending goals yet still pull it out, unfortunatley usually with late game war, which I'm getting bored with. I doubt I could move up to DG without fulling understanding mm skills though.

"Lurker Hotel? I'll take the Penthouse suite please."

Good luck, Guys.

if there any room, i would like to join. I used to be able to beat a good emp game, but i havent played for about 5-6 months and would like to catch up a bit, and brush the dust off.

Any room for a DG player who needs to learn the level of mircromanaging needed to get to Deity? If not, just lurking for TGOM's advice will be well worth it.

Byz are my favorite civ, and I've taken them to wins a lot, so that might be a plus or a minus.

And CVH, don't we have a game as Germany to finish?? :hammer2:

Wow. This filled up a lot faster than I expected. Signups now exceed open slots by two. That puts me in the untenable position of having to tell a few of you that you can't play. Unfortunately, I just think 8 people is too many for a TDG. In keeping with my original number of 6, Cyllus took the last open slot. That said, I would certainly invite and encourage the others to join Bucephalus in the lurker's gallery. I will make a note in the roster as to who has asked to join. In the event someone drops out or is otherwise stricken from the rolls, invitations will be extended in the order that signups were received. That's the only fair way I can think of to do this.

Thank you so much for your interest. The roster is now closed.

@Bede -- what do you think of the length of turnsets? Beorn commented that 20's too long for MMing work. I'd like your input before proceeding.

Didn't even see the pic and civ we landed with, must have scrolled right by it. I've never played any civ with Seafaring, just doesn't suit my playstyle. Those Dromons have pounded my coastal cities early in past games, looks like I'll learn a lot from this SG :) Also could be an Island start which I've never drawn. Anxious to get rolling :D

I am going to add a couple of items dealing with standards of play to your rule set, if I may. The GOTM rules address many exploits of mechanics but miss some of the more subtle issues of game design.

1) No false peace treaties. Pointy stick research is a long and honorable tradition but breaking a peace treaty secured with technology and installment payments before the treaty has run its course will not be allowed. Any treaty secured by gold per turn or resources on our side must be honored for the full twenty turns.

2) "The trading reputation is golden" say LKendter, and so it is. That means no deliberate act on the player's part that will cause the premature end of any deal involving gold per turn or resources from our side. Losing the "Trade Rep" has consequences that will affect the entire course of the game, and not for the better. Being unable, ever again, to buy tech for gold per turn or resources, or supplying resources for a lump sum payment, changes the dynamics of the game so much that what had been a game of building, diplomacy and warfare, becomes a game of war or rumors of war, unending. I can play that sort of game, at Deity, and win, but I don't like to; it takes way too many options off the table.

Unfortunately the game does not recognize the difference between random events and player actions when considering the impact of a broken trade route. So volcanic eruptions can destroy a road and break a deal, barbarian galleys appearing on a coastline can break a trade route, war not involving the two principals in a deal can break a trade route, and the demise of one of the parties to a deal can break a trade route. So when considering a resources or gold per turn deal for cold cash, World Maps, or technology, look around carefully and make sure those risks are minimal

3) RoP rape is not a permitted tactic, nor will the use of RoP's or scouts to deny a resource to an opponent by parking a unit on it before it can be roaded.

4) No worker automation, ever, and limit the use of go-to orders to situations that are detailed in the notes to the save. It is really annoying to press enter on the first turn of a set and have little figures scampering all over the landscape. It is even more annoying to chase them down and turn them off.

Now that is off my chest.

@Aabraxan - 20 turns for the first player and ten after that are pretty standard. Too much can happen in twenty turns for a trainer to keep up with, especially since everyone's play style is unfamiliar to me.

I am also going to ask that, especially in the early going at least until the end of the Ancient Age, that whenever a technology trade comes up, that the turn player stop and post a save along with a description of the deal on offer. There are many things to consider in the early trade meetings between nations (who knows what, who knows who, what are the benefits and so on) and I want everybody to have a chance to comment.

Now on to the game -

Theodora starts with Alphabet (good) and Bronze Working (so-so). BTW don't train a spearman, ever. This is not Always War and we won't need the protection until we can train even better units.

Our start position is bland and that is the charitable assessment. Only one visible bonus grass and a lake instead of a river and at least one of the capitol's fields is a desert. Lots of trees to chop, though, so that will help with the early need for shields.

So how about a rundown of opening moves from everybody? Research path and goals, first three worker actions, first build, what field worked, what is most important output (food, gold, shields) at this stage are the things I want considered.

@Aabraxan - 20 turns for the first player and ten after that are pretty standard. Too much can happen in twenty turns for a trainer to keep up with, especially since everyone's play style is unfamiliar to me.


there is a lot to learn in the first 20 moves of the game. what do you think about all players playing the first 20 turns and then we select the best one to go with from there?



So how about a rundown of opening moves from everybody? Research path and goals, first three worker actions, first build, what field worked, what is most important output (food, gold, shields) at this stage are the things I want considered.


this is a great idea. unfortunately, i won;t be able to post my plans until tomorrow. perhaps i'll dream about it tonight!

there is a lot to learn in the first 20 moves of the game. what do you think about all players playing the first 20 turns and then we select the best one to go with from there?


This is customary for most TDG's, and is a pretty good idea. Everyone learns something in the first 20 turns because everyone plays the first 20 turns. And comments on them.

I'm good with the new rule additions, Bede. When I get freed up from RL, I'll copy them into the OP so that we've got one ruleset that everyone can refer to.

As to opening moves, unfortunately, RL blindsided me yesterday, so I'll be tied up for a couple of days. Here are my thoughts.

1) Plant our capital where we stand.
2) Food is probably most important right now, but we don't have any bonuses (bonii?) to capitalize on. So move worker to BG and begin mining. That will speed up #3.
3) Warrior build first, so he can get out and explore. We need to find good land and luxes.
4) Since we begin with Alpha, we're well-positioned to pull off the Republic slingshot. I'd immediately start with Writing with an eye to beelining that and trading along the way for other AA techs.

commenting on 3 and 4, starting with Alpha also enables you to make Curraghs, which are great for exlporing, especially on worlds with multiple continents (suicide curraghs).

Opening moves:

Move the worker to the BG
Settler where we are and make sure our citizen is working that BG (although it should be the default)
Start building a dinghy
As much as I love the Phil slingshot, I am inclined to be rather militaristic these days and would thus go for IW. Knowing where the iron is and early swords could go a long way towards securing the foundation we need for our civ.
Up that science slider to 100%

That's all I can think of at the moment for that first turn.
Question:
Are we allowed to see who we are facing (through the space race screen)?

As there will need to be discussion over the research path I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. As we are going for space, we want to focus on tech. The Phil slingshot does seem to address this most directly. However, at emperor we can still get the slingshot (although possibly not the republic gambit) with researching IW first. Moreover, if we end up being able to trade for writing for IW, we would still be online for the Rep sling with an effective unit as well.

We don't have any resources that we can immediately see. This doesn't really tell us much as there is so much we don't see but we are going to want/need resources and this will probably mean military conflict. The faster we get strong, the faster we get big. If we get big and efficient, the space race should be in the bag.

Having said all this. If we indeed do decide to go for writing. I would like to see us do the Rep sling to get as early a switch as possible.

Good, though conventional, thinking, so far.

If I were to consider Phaedo's way of Joy through Strength and an assiduous application of the pointy stick acquisition method to the knowledge inventories and land holdings of the neighbors an early Monarchy followed by a beeline to Communism for the end-game offers an interesting way to win.

I will reserve further comment until others have posted their thoughts.

It's true that it is conventional. Of course that is not necessarily a bad thing. The question is whether it is conventional because we don't know any other options or because the conventional approach has been judged as the most effective. Towards that end, it is probably helpful if we include our reasoning behind the choices we are advocating.

So here is how I see the situation. Our free techs give us two 2nd tier research possibilities. We will be able to get a number of 1st tier techs for a 2nd tier one. If we are going to ignore those advantages that's fine, but it should be for some purpose. Iron is the most important strategic resource for a long time in the game. Knowing where it is is important. I figure, the earlier we know where it is, the faster we can plan to secure it. Of course, the Phil gambit gets us free tech. As we are going for space, free tech seems to directly work towards that goal. Just to be clear, I am not necessarily lobbying for a "Joy of strength" policy (nice phrase Bede). However we will be in conflict with nearby civs and I just figure, the faster we secure our base, the faster we win. After we have the base, we wouldn't really need war at all.

Other options that could be possible are:
A quick archer rush (I personally have never tried this); a beeline to Monarchy for both government and trading benefits; and focusing on improvement techs (writing for Libs, currency for markets, etc), which would also have trade benefits.

Now, all the regular concerns aside, the purpose of this game is to focus on MMing right? I don't know if warmongering is the best way to focus on this really. Players tend to focus on the war and forget the management. A more peaceful approach may be more beneficial to our purpose. However, we do want to get big enough that specialist farms come into play. Once those farms are at size 5 or 6, I'm fine. I would like to know better about the actual growth and specialist assignment. This means we need an empire that is big enough to have a number of corrupt towns. We are going to need to expand and that will mean war.

At the end of the day, I don't care what path we decide to pursue. However, I REALLY care that the team is clear on the plan and how we intend to impliment it. It would also be nice if we could keep in mind the purpose of the TDG. Winning should be secondary (and will happen anyway if we are able to create a technically advanced and economically robust empire). Our goal is to learn better MMing skills, not merely win:)

Knowing where it is is important. I figure, the earlier we know where it is, the faster we can plan to secure it. Of course, the Phil gambit gets us free tech. As we are going for space, free tech seems to directly work towards that goal.

Now, all the regular concerns aside, the purpose of this game is to focus on MMing right? I don't know if warmongering is the best way to focus on this really. Players tend to focus on the war and forget the management. A more peaceful approach may be more beneficial to our purpose. However, we do want to get big enough that specialist farms come into play.Towards the space goal of the game, strictly speaking of that aspect, I find it most effective to go for the earliest republic you can possibly get, then get early pottery and literature, and trade those around. Make sure everyone gets its share of techs, and that the 2-3 faster researching civs get the gold feed from the smaller ones buying their techs. Research techs the AI doesn't go for, and cross your fingers that the AI wil research the other ones - they LOVE feudalism, nationalism, rocketry, gunpowder ...

Work peacefully towards knights, in a very very builder fashion, and mass knights whenever you can - around the time you would start universities as well. Do a lot of both the latter, conquer land (grasslands and flood plains), turn these into specialist farms. Conquer pyramids if you can. With these, you should be able to keep a steady but low military output and keep expanding for more and more beaker farms. Note that it is very very common to miss Copernicus' and Newton's even if you do a little prebuild. Get GOOD prebuilds for these wonders, they are worth it.

This is the strategy I found most effective for space. I challenged it on several aspects, notably the time at which you start conquering and the time you start your GA. Your GA is best used at the entrance of the MA, when you get knights and universities, or at the entrance of the IA, when techs are most expensive. Modern techs pose no problems because you have plenty of beaker farms by then. Starting to conquer earlier is too early, and cavalries can backfire two ways:
1- you get cavalries really early but you need to research the top techs as well and it takes a long time
2- you hit the IA with very few to no beaker farms and you hit several techs with a no-good beaker output.

And towards the MM training goal of the game, anything goes, really. Working on MM workss whatever you do, so long as you put the effort to work on the MM. Tautological on the sides here, but if you do it, you indeed do it.

Beorn, just curious from whom you got the quote on space race strategy. It's interesting to me, especially from the standpoint of the problem with going for cavalry early...something I've just recently begun to try.

Oh I just wrote it, I just thought it was long and the last paragraph was most appropriate, so I spoilered it. The AI's go for the lower research path most of the time, so you're double-crossing the techs if you race through to cavalries as well yourself. It also means you don't have to rely on AI-luck to get these universities your F6 guy craves for. It certainly makes the difference between a 1350-1450 launch and a 1150-1250 launch.

Note that for any VC besides SS and Diplo, I'd go cavalries early, with very obvious motivations, and I don't see any further counter-argument, to someone just saying "let's get cavs and get the job done" with space in mind, than just my personnal experience. Depending on the situation, cavalries early just might be better in many games.

Oh I just wrote it, I just thought it was long and the last paragraph was most appropriate, so I spoilered it. The AI's go for the lower research path most of the time, so you're double-crossing the techs if you race through to cavalries as well yourself. It also means you don't have to rely on AI-luck to get these universities your F6 guy craves for. It certainly makes the difference between a 1350-1450 launch and a 1150-1250 launch.

Note that for any VC besides SS and Diplo, I'd go cavalries early, with very obvious motivations, and I don't see any further counter-argument, to someone just saying "let's get cavs and get the job done" with space in mind, than just my personnal experience. Depending on the situation, cavalries early just might be better in many games.
I guess I've learned the game backwards from most people, starting with diplo and space, and just now focusing on domination. It does take a very different strategy, and your comments helped me understand the WHY of what I'm beginning to do. Thank you.

First off thanks Bede and any other lurkers/helpers for taking the time :)

I'd like to not use the Spaceship screen to find out what other civs we have out there. I don't view it as an exploit. I just personally like to find them on my own, should be fairly easy with this civ.

Research: After thinking too much about what to research I'm leaning toward going for Map Making first and even trying to get TGL. Writing asap then trade it for Pottery hopefully and get going on Map Making. With the TGL we'd almost certainly find the other continents with little (if any) losses to our exploring fleet. Also we could be settle on most of the Islands. I have yet to complete the Republic whip through any Emporer games and have given up on it (can it even be done I wonder?) After Map Making I'd go Lit then head for Republic. The AI seems to research Map Making and Lit towards the end of thier AA techs so we may be able to trade enough to get the cheap techs especially if we're the only ones who know every civ which by that point we could.

Opening Moves: Settle where we stand, coastal near the lake, send the worker to the BG to road then mine, then it'd matter what we see. We may need to irrigate from the lake North or West. That'd matter a lot as to what to do when the BG is taken care of.

Build Orders: Warrior to explore - Curragh - Warrior to fortify - Curragh. Of course this is tentative, who knows what will progress by that time. I would like to be able to trade as much as possible when we get techs.

Can we also stop the play to ask what to do when our gut says build a spearman now? :crazyeye: I've never heard the "don't build any spearmen, ever" rule. Barbs are restless aren't they?

I have yet to complete the Republic whip through any Emporer games and have given up on it (can it even be done I wonder?)

Can we also stop the play to ask what to do when our gut says build a spearman now? :crazyeye: I've never heard the "don't build any spearmen, ever" rule. Barbs are restless aren't they?

You can do the Rep slingshot at emperor, you just have to make sure to max your gold production (road before mine with the workers for example). You can certainly get a 1st or 2nd tier tech and still make it to Phil first.

As for spears, why bother. Give me some archers anyday. They cut down attacking Barbs and will take out any barb threat quite nicely. Don't wait for the barbs to attack you. Take them out first.:)

Personally, I would bypass IW and go straight up the tree to Republic. With a fleet of dinky boats out there, you should be able to max out your trade opportunities for other techs. IW is a high priority for the AI, so you can be sure that someone else is going to get it right soon. Trade for it and invest the beakers elsewhere. Or take it through pointy-stick reasearch. Better investment is in a path that the AI ignores. At this level you can afford to snag Code of Laws before Philo, while at DG you can't. At Deity I presume that you won't be beating the AI to any techs for quite a while.

As far as pointy-stick research goes, at this level you could go with an early, early military rush. Beating down just two AI cities with concentrated forces can get you a whole nest of techs. The danger is of course missing out on other priorites, mainly expansion.

Theodora has the capacity to become a research monster and queen of the tech tree by the early MA. Combine that with some significant takeover of your neighbors' territory, and you can take the victory condition of your choice.

EDIT: Agree totally with Beorn about the desirability of Cops and Newtons, especially if you can get them in the same city. Appropriate timing for prebuilds is crucial. As Theodora is scientific, you also have good odds for popping an SGL here and there. Just don't make that a necessary part of your strategy.

It seems that most of the gang has been heard from, including the peanut gallery. (Howdy BeF and nice analysis, there, and a big hug for Harriet, good to have you along for the ride. Listen closely to the lady with the cat, guys, she asks great questions.)

My assessment goes this way:

The visible land is gold and food poor, as there are no riversides to work and no food bonuses. The only 2g field is the lake, fortunately it doesn't require worker turns to get there. And there is only one visible bonus grass. Taken altogether that means a fast research start is not in the cards, and we are going to have to watch the commerce, population growth (and early happiness) closely. Can't let any gold coins get away and can't lose any food.

We do not start with Pottery, but have Alphabet, which means we can acquire Pottery and some cash easily if we get out there and meet the neighbors.

The Republic slingshot is probably out of reach with this start, not enough early commerce. That does not mean we should ignore the Philosophy gambit entirely, but going for Iron first (as Phaedo suggests and I concur) will require some canny trading and smart neighbors and a little different approach if we want to try for the Republic through Philosophy. And the issue with the Republic slingshot is not Philosophy first, it is learning Code of Laws before Philosophy. But Mapmaking is a good consolation prize, especially for a Seafaring nation.

In a longer term view, the critical phase of the game is the Middle Ages, as Beorn pointed out. The jump in tech costs at that point when the realm is not really ready for it can be painful. That will be eased somewhat by the Scientific trait (free tech on age change and cheap libraries) but will still be felt. The ideal situation to be in is 20 cities (Five strong core towns and 15 specialist farms) on the ground before the age change.

Here is how I would manage the opening -

Settle in place and start a dinghy. Citizen assigned to the bonus grass. Science to 100% on Iron Working. Worker to the bonus grass to build a road (commerce first) then a mine. The dinghy should set sail about turn 8. The mini map puts us in the middle of the continent, so either north or south will work. After the dinghy a warrior for MP duty. We will need to keep a gimlet eye on unit and building costs so I wouldn't build a fourth unit or a building until the commerce will support the maintenance. Second citizen should work the lake (2f2c), and the worker should be cutting a road through the forest NW. I want to save the trees for either a granary (when we learn Pottery) or the first settler but having the road there will make the chop go faster.

You get one content citizen at Emperor, so the second will be unhappy, watch for the growth turn and adjust the slider accordingly. The MP warrior should appear about the same time or shortly after, but setting the second citizen to working the 2g lake will keep the entertainment cost down to 10% instead of 20%.

Managing the forest chops is going to be important to get the best output. It takes 6 turns and the yield is 10 shields. Keep those numbers in mind.

@Cyllus - the Republic slingshot at Emperor is eminently achievable. You need a high commerce start. Riverside with at least one food bonus on the river. You also need Alphabet as a starting tech and the ability to drive science at 100% till you get there. Active trading is the third leg of the stool. Mostly for cash to feed the scientists while the slider keeps the people happy.

And Phaedo is right about the benefits of active defense. Spears have their role in Always War. Any other games they are as useful as temples.

Xposted with SimpleMonkey - howdy and welcome to the peanut gallery. While I agree with your assessment in general the commerce poor start makes the Republic slingshot chancier.

And now that I think about the detour through Iron Working (thanks for rattling the old brain SM) is not the best choice. Setting the research path to Writing at 100% makes better sense.

I'm learning already:D. I guess I didn't really assess the start position very well when I was planning. Thanks for the analysis from everyone

Research: Since we start with Alphabet, I'd say we have a good chance at pulling off the Republic slingshot. OTOH, I *always* go for that in my games, so I'd like to at least discuss some other options.

(Edit: Make that "we might have a chance at the Republic slingshot", based on Bede's comments.)

That said, I would research Writing at 100%.

Worker actions: The obvious first step is to road and mine the BG, but I'm not sure what to do after that. It kind of depends on the squares available from culture expansion.

The only choice for first tile worked is between the lake and the BG. The lake speeds our research, the BG speeds our production.

Based on food available, it will take 20 turns before our first Settler can be built. I see no reason to grow further before making any settlers; we won't have the food available to pump them out any faster. Given that, our options are:
* Citizen works the lake first and the BG second. Build the settler from the beginning, 10 shields in at size 1, then 20 shields in at size 2, settler production knocks us back to size 1. This is the worst choice and assumes no help from the worker.
1. Citizen works the BG first and the lake second. Build a warrior, then the settler. With two SPT, the Warrior is done in 5 and the settler in 15 to hit our 20 turn target. Again, this ignores the worker's contribution.
2. Two warriors, then a settler. If we road first, the mine should be done at turn 10, giving 3 SPT. That's a 10-turn settler, done at turn 20 when we grow to size 3.
3. Mine first, then road. The mine finishes at turn 6 for 3 SPT. Make a curragh first thing, and it finishes on turn 7. Make a warrior second, and he finishes on turn 11 (two shields wasted, ugh).
4. Make a warrior first, curragh second. Warrior finishes on turn 5, curragh finishes on turn 11 - again, two shields wasted.
Then we get our Settler at turn 21.

Right now, I'm going to suggest going option 4. The curragh is three times faster than the warrior for exploring, giving us a very quick look at our coastline and potentially early AI contacts. On the downside, the curragh can't pop goody huts or kill barbs.

Overall, food is the most important output for the early game. With lots of shields available, our food is the only thing that limits our settler production.

Managing the forest chops is going to be important to get the best output. It takes 6 turns and the yield is 10 shields. Keep those numbers in mind.
Big hug returned to Bede from your "perennial student", and first question. ;) On forests, isn't it 6 turns to road, but only 4 to chop? :mischief:

Harriet is right on the chopping. so 4 turns to chop and 10 shields.

Elephantium is no Dumbo. His option 4 with a switch in the build order - curragh first then warrior would be my preferred opening. Getting a 3 move boat sailing the coastlines is worth more than the MP. A settler at turn 21 will be just about right. Managing the odd shield right now is less important than managing the odd gold piece so roading first then mining or any other action is the way to go.

Spears are useful if you don't have iron. But other than that, they aren't useful for much (Hoplites and NuMercs are, though)

Harriet is right on the chopping. so 4 turns to chop and 10 shields.

Elephantium is no Dumbo. His option 4 with a switch in the build order - curragh first then warrior would be my preferred opening. Getting a 3 move boat sailing the coastlines is worth more than the MP. A settler at turn 21 will be just about right. Managing the odd shield right now is less important than managing the odd gold piece so roading first then mining or any other action is the way to go.

Thanks :D

Building the road first changes the outcome a bit, though - curragh will finish on turn 8. That gives us 4/10 shields for the Warrior when the mine opens, meaning the warrior finishes on turn 12. Unless we pick up another shield somehow, our settler will finish on turn 22.

seeing as i've read everyone's initial plans, this might sound repetitive:

1)settle in place, set science 100% towards iron working
2)begin road to bonus grass
3)build warrior=>warrior=>settler

Thanks :D

Building the road first changes the outcome a bit, though - curragh will finish on turn 8. That gives us 4/10 shields for the Warrior when the mine opens, meaning the warrior finishes on turn 12. Unless we pick up another shield somehow, our settler will finish on turn 22.

Just to make sure, but does your plan account for the shield on the production phase ("emphasize production" in the governor screen and the newly hatched citizen will work the forest for the inter-turn production phase) when we grow to three? If it does, good, you don't training wheels when it comes to micromanagement, if it doesn't then there is the shield you were looking for.

Comment to mr_2: two warriors will limit our exploratory wanderings to one slow (1 tile per move) wanderer. Seafaring curraghs are turbocharged at three tiles per move. The road to the stars is paved with contacts, so you need to meet them early and often. :)

Guys, Galleys move 3 squares. Curraghs move 2 squares!

Dude. Seafaring.

Seafaring civ get +1 to ship movement, that was why I suggested getting TGL to give our Dromon 5 movement. Of course that'd be secondary to any expansion so probably not even worth going for unless we have a powerhouse shield generator that we could afford to put shields into. I really don't see the point in researching IW ourselves. The AI go for that asap, every time. We can certainly trade for it with Writing while the AI research every cheap tech first.

:crazyeye: Right, the Seafaring trait. Silly me.

I really don't see the point in researching IW ourselves. The AI go for that asap, every time. We can certainly trade for it with Writing while the AI research every cheap tech first.

I really don't have strong feelings about what we research first, but there is value to self-researching IW. First, we already have BW (which many AI won't and we would know how many do have it if we check the space screen). Second, if we go for the Phil sling, what are we going to trade for IW? It would have to be Writing or something higher and that would put our slingshot in jeopardy as we would be trading an AI up to parity on our own track, especially if we are starting with a low currency position in the beginning.

Just to make sure, but does your plan account for the shield on the production phase ("emphasize production" in the governor screen and the newly hatched citizen will work the forest for the inter-turn production phase) when we grow to three?

Err, no, it doesn't. How exactly does the shield-on-production phase system work?

Actually, a general primer on the game's interturn functioning would be helpful for me.

Edit: Something else occurred to me. A strategy I've been enamored of lately is building my first 3 or so cities in a CxC pattern around my capital (specifically, settle the corner spots that don't get filled by the culture expansion), then abandoning them at the end of the expansion phase. To my thinking, the advantage of this is that I get extra production up and running a couple of turns sooner - which has a ripple effect far into the game.

What does the rest of the team think about this trick?

Wait.. what does "in cue" mean? does that mean im up? or just waiting...

Err, no, it doesn't. How exactly does the shield-on-production phase system work?

Actually, a general primer on the game's interturn functioning would be helpful for me.

The game calculates food BEFORE shields.

1. If you look in the City screen and see that you are producing enough food to grow a new citizen on the next turn, and

2. If your build (curragh, settler, warrior) appears to be 1 or 2 shields short of building that next turn, and

3. If you have your City Governor set on "emphasize production",

Your new citizen will be born on the inter-turn. The Governor will place it on the highest production tile available (usually forest or mined hill), and THEN the shields will be calculated and include that additional high-shield tile.

So, if your build appears to be 2 shields short and there is a forest not being worked YET by a citizen, that is where your new citizen will magically come up with the apparently missing shields.

This is also a big part of how a "settler factory" works, but it usually happens twice during the build period, and I'm sure Bede could explain it much better than I.

Wait.. what does "in cue" mean? does that mean im up? or just waiting...

It was poor wording on my part. Call it "holding for an open slot."

Harriet's explanation is spot on.

As I understand it, the inter-turn calculations start with food (growth), then commerce (research), and finish with shields (production).

To get the extra shield(s) you have to have the city governor set to "emphasize production" TO do that you open the screen, select the governor button and check the box marked "Emphasize Production" and uncheck all the rest including the box "Manage citizen moods".

Generally you will want to reassign the new citizen to a more appropriate field once you have the game back.

And that is precisely how a "settler factory" works. They require management, though, as you have to reassign the growth citizen from shields to food every two turns to keep it in phase.

Can we also stop the play to ask what to do when our gut says build a spearman now? . . . . Barbs are restless aren't they?

If it wasn't clear from my opening post, absolutely. This game is not about speed. And yes, Barbs are restless.

Edit: Something else occurred to me. A strategy I've been enamored of lately is building my first 3 or so cities in a CxC pattern around my capital (specifically, settle the corner spots that don't get filled by the culture expansion), then abandoning them at the end of the expansion phase. To my thinking, the advantage of this is that I get extra production up and running a couple of turns sooner - which has a ripple effect far into the game.

What does the rest of the team think about this trick?


Strikes me as a waste of 90 shields as well as worker turns developing lands on the far side of the capitol's cultural boundary. Take two more steps and make a permanent town.

Much can be said about settlement pattern in the core and beyond. Much depends on the nature of the ground available and the food resources found there. I can't comment on an appropriate pattern for this situation until we know more of the surroundings. It will be something in between ICS and OCP is all I can say at the moment. (Acronym test for the lurkers ;))

I suggested mining the BG first and am beginning to see why that's a mistake here. I've done a few calculations in my head and I'd just like to be sure I've got the math straight on what we get out of the BG. If we mine first, we get the dinghy in 7, but no gold until turn 11. If we road first, we get the dingy in 8, but an additional 6 gold in the bargain. Is that right?

I think you are right by mu calculations Aabra. But remember the city square will give us 1gpt towards research. So assuming we keep the citizen on the BG from the get go (although Elephantium's suggestion of going for the lake for the three turns it takes to road the BG is much better), If we mine first, we get the currah with a total of 7g going towards our research. If we road first, by turn 7 we don't yet get the dinghy but we will have had 11g go towards research moving up to 14g next turn when we build the dinghy. A total of 6 more gold to our research. Remeber that we are gong for the slingshot so gold is at a premium for us. I think if we were going for an early military rush (maybe if we were the sumerians orMayians for example), or if we wanted a gran as fast as possible, getting the extra shield earlier would be more important to us.

Bede, isn't commerce before anything in the turn (not counting the ending of Anarchy, that is)?

@choxorn, I don't think so but then I have been wrong before but I'm not sure it matters. What I do know for sure is that food comes before shields, which does.

The plan appears to take shape. Settle in place, put the citizen to fishing. If we do that it doesn't matter whether we road or mine the grass first as we will get the second citizen after the worker finishes roading and mining the bonus grass. We will have met one of the first criteria of successful micromanagement - always have the citizens working the highest yield fields. The lake is output 4 (2g2f) the unimproved bonus grass is output 3 (2f1s). We will also meet one of my favorite goals as well, which is to have fields fully improved when there is a citizen to work them.

As I said before the odd gold piece should take precedence over the odd shield, for this situation. Phaedo is correct when he says the an early military rush would alter those priorities.

And the consensus opinion seems to be that Writing comes before anything else. I would not hoard either Writing or Alphabet when the opportunity arises to trade them. It would be really optimal if someone would research Code of Laws for us, and we trade Philosophy for it the instant we learn Philosophy. To make that work someone else in the world will have to know how to write.

And a reminder - be alert and ready to adjust the sliders on or just before the growth turn if we don't have an MP in place. Losing a turn of commerce to either a clown or a riot will put us out of the hunt. It is that close. You get one content citizen at this level so the first new citizen will put us over the edge and the game will make that next citizen a clown on growth regardless of what your governor setting may be.

I'm pretty sure food comes first, then commerce (and techs), then shields last (along with the wonder prebuild cascade trick). My .02 with mister monk.

@Bede -- With regard to trades and writing, you did say that you still want everyone to save and post before making early trades, though, right?

Yes please. If a trade comes up on the AI's turn take a picture of the offer then refuse it then save the game and post. I would like an opportunity to look at the screen and suggest some variablesw to consider before proceeding.

My comment was only in preparation for what some might think a "wrong" move in the future.

And a reminder - be alert and ready to adjust the sliders on or just before the growth turn if we don't have an MP in place. Losing a turn of commerce to either a clown or a riot will put us out of the hunt. It is that close. You get one content citizen at this level so the first new citizen will put us over the edge and the game will make that next citizen a clown on growth regardless of what your governor setting may be.
I thought that the riot didn't happen until one turn after growth- but maybe that's not so on C3C... I don't know...

Just ran a little test - when you start with one "content" citizen in the growth phase the governor makes a clown out of the second citizen regardless of the governor settings. If you set the slider to 10% lux one turn prior you still get a clown and if you set it to 20% you get a new content citizen assigned to a high food high production square again regardless of the governor settings and you will lose beakers. If you leave the science alone and manually reassign the citizens to the lake and the now mined/roaded bonus grass you will keep up the pace of beaker collection.

The point of all this is that you get no "grace period" when you have only two citizens and the first one is merely content. And it is better for the science rate if you reset the slider on the turn after and then reassign the citizens accordingly. And by working the lake and now roaded and mined grassland you can keep the slider at 10% rather than 20% and still have two content citizens and a curragh on turn 11.

With such a mediocre start, I'd have thought that acquiring WC relatively early might be desirable. If you've started near to an AA aggressor like Shaka or Monty, Archers could make all the difference.

Bede said
It would be really optimal if someone would research Code of Laws for us, and we trade Philosophy for it the instant we learn Philosophy. To make that work someone else in the world will have to know how to write.


How can one learn Philo then trade it for CoL before the screen prompting one to chose it's next tech? When the screen prompts us to chose a tech Rep won't be an option as we don't know CoL yet.

I've seen reference to being able to open F sceens while looking a trade option or one of your advisors but I don't know how to do it, just pressing F anything doesn't override a screen for me.

Another thing that happens to me when trying fot Rep sligshot on Emp is if I'm near an aggressive civ, they'll demand CoL then beat me to Philo. Although more often than not a civ on another continent knows it before anyone on my own. I'm not strongly against going for the slingshot it's just that when I miss it on Emp I find myself stuck behind until the Late MA or even early IA.

Guide to trading Philo for CoL, then getting Rep as free tech:
1. When you get Philo, hit "What's the big picture?"
2. Go to F4 screen.
3. You can contact an AI by clicking repeatedly on their picture (e.g., if I wanted to contact Temujin of the Mongols, I could click on his picture a few times- 2 or 3- and I would contact him.)
4. Do this until you find an AI that has CoL.
5. Trade to get CoL.
6. Go back to F6 screen and select Republic.
7. Voila! The game gives you Republic as your free tech.
That's how it works.

Good luck finding an AI who researches CoL first boys ! That's the tricky part about the CoL trade prouesse.

Wow . . . Given that exactly zero turns have been played, there's an awful lot to digest here.

Are we ready to kick this off?

Wow . . . Given that exactly zero turns have been played, there's an awful lot to digest here.

Are we ready to kick this off?

Ready when you are. How about an order of go and then away we go!

Good luck finding an AI who researches CoL first boys ! That's the tricky part about the CoL trade prouesse.

Certainement, but not impossible.

Ready when you are. How about an order of go and then away we go!

Very well.

GO!



(or did you mean a roster?)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Regarding the CoL issue when going for the Philo slingshot to Republic: even if you can't hit on an AI who's got CoL and is also willing to trade it on that interturn, you can still pick up something like maths that will hand you Currency or Construction, also techs with a high trade value. Not as nice, admittedly, but still enough to quite possibly boot you out of the AA and on to glory.

I don't know that Bede will concur with this, but my rule of thumb regarding trades (in addition to asking the three questions) is to never trade with the first civ I meet. Better to wait until at least one other neighbor is nearby, for obvious reasons.

Oh, and yeah, I will be interested to see this game actually start. :lol:

So, is it like my game where only the first person plays?

Or others where everyone plays the set?

I'm familiar with both.

. . . .
Oh, and yeah, I will be interested to see this game actually start. :lol:

So, is it like my game where only the first person plays?

Or others where everyone plays the set?

First person plays the start and I'm playing it now. Just checking in to review Bede's posts before the first pop growth.

I thought we were all going to play the first turnset, post reports, and compare notes...

@Elephantium: Here's what Bede initially said:

@Aabraxan - 20 turns for the first player and ten after that are pretty standard. Too much can happen in twenty turns for a trainer to keep up with, especially since everyone's play style is unfamiliar to me.

Mr_2_You said the same thing about everyone playing the first 20, but I don't think Bede ever responded. Either way is fine with me, but reviewing 20 turns from each of 6 players might be a bit much. Let's let TGOM weigh in, eh?

Bede?

I believe this to be the roster:
Current Roster:
Trainer: Bede

The Rest of Us:
Aabraxan (UP, Playing)
Mr_2_You (On deck)
Elephantium
Phaedo
D'Artagnan59
Cyllus

Holding for open slots:
CoolioVonHoolio
SimpleMonkey

Well, I played through the first 20 turns already. I'll post results after Aabraxan updates again - I chanced to meet two rival civs, and I don't want to be tossing out spoilers if we started exploring in a different direction.

Reviewing all those turn sets will give me a headache, especially as the opening moves have been pretty well nailed down, so I wouldn't expect a hap'worth o' difference among them.

And I concur with the SimpleMonk(ey), as an honorary TGOMonk(ey) on not trading on the first meet.

Just to make sure, but does your plan account for the shield on the production phase ("emphasize production" in the governor screen and the newly hatched citizen will work the forest for the inter-turn production phase) when we grow to three? If it does, good, you don't training wheels when it comes to micromanagement, if it doesn't then there is the shield you were looking for.
I'm pretty sure the governor would choose a 2 food/0 shield tile over a 1 food/2 shield tile when there's a 2f surplus, even when emphasize production is on (I think my notes from when I was trying to figure out exactly how the governor worked confirms it, although I gave up because he wasn't being consistent. My best guess is that food, shields, and gold are given a value, with food>shields>gold, and emphasizing increases those values (while keeping the same hierarchy), with any food beyond 5fpt (not counting the new citizen's consumption I think) or food when the city can't grow (i.e. lacks aqueduct/river or hospital/Shakespeare's) not being counted.).

By the way, the interturn order is gold, happiness, food, shields, culture.

Just ran a little test - when you start with one "content" citizen in the growth phase the governor makes a clown out of the second citizen regardless of the governor settings. If you set the slider to 10% lux one turn prior you still get a clown and if you set it to 20% you get a new content citizen assigned to a high food high production square again regardless of the governor settings and you will lose beakers. If you leave the science alone and manually reassign the citizens to the lake and the now mined/roaded bonus grass you will keep up the pace of beaker collection.
Actually the new citizen worked a tile and got the shields and gold (check the shields before and after), then the city's borders expanded, so the governor reallocated the citizens. (2fpt I assume, so that growth and culture expansion occurred on the same turn)

Thanks for the turn order Mr. Bentley :hatsoff::thanx:
I think the governor has a thing against 1fpt growth, so it will try to stay away from it whatever the emphasis is on, but on the other hand if you have a 2+ fpt growth from the tiles it will work on the best shield or commerce tile, accordingly.

Lurking
Good Luck Y'all. The ol monk is an excellent teacher who took the blind rats, including yours truly, from monarch to dg in no time (anyone seen BlackJAC?). Since then I haven't learned a thing but to keep having fun.

Mr_2_You, would you mind trading slots with me for this rotation? I'm leaving for vacation this Friday morning, so the alternative would be to skip me for the first round.

Oh, I'll be back on the 20th, so I can join in on the fun again that night :D

Mr_2_You, would you mind trading slots with me for this rotation?


sure, i'm flexible.

Aabra, could I be the official "Roster person"? I'm somewhat organized and will be able to keep track of it.

Aabra, could I be the official "Roster person"? I'm somewhat organized and will be able to keep track of it.

Well, I've never seen an SG with an official roster person, but I think that'd be fine.

Team, please welcome Choxorn, who shall be Clerk of the Roster. It will be his job to keep track of turns, trades and skips, and to ensure that a current roster is regularly posted for reference. :clap::clap: :clap:

Chox, expect a PM from me in the near future as regards your newly-assigned duties. Welcome aboard.

Aabra01: Training for Mid-Level Micromanagers

Step 1: Re-read all the prior post.
Step 2:Try to digest all the analysis so far.
Step 3: Sit amazed at how much information there is. Wow. It's a lot.
Step 4: Fire up all relevant programs.

And away we go:

Turn 0: 4000 BC
Reassess to be sure I didn't miss anything in the map. Nope, our start is still the Boring Byzantine start.
Turn on Grid.
Move worker to BG.
Settle in place -- CONSTANTINOPLE is founded.
Compare working the BG with working the pond.
Spot some tobacco to the west.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/01_Constantinople.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/02_Constantinople.JPG

Work the pond.
Writing in 40 at 100%
Go back to Constantinople and set "emphasize production" to the exclusion of other settings.

IBT: z z z . . .
(not a huge surprise here)

Turn 1: 3950 BC
Start road.
Growth in 9, dinghy in 14, writing in 39.

IBT: zzz. . .

Turn 2: 3900 BC
zzz. . .

IBT:zzz. . .

Turn 3: 3850
zzz........


IBT:
Road completed. Begin mine, 6 turns.

Turn 4: 3800 BC
Zoom to Constantinople to compare working pond w/ working roaded BG.
Working pond is $0, 6 beakers, and 0 smilies at 100% research:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/03_Constantinople.JPG

Working BG is 0/5/0, but cuts the curragh by 5 turns.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/04_Constantinople.JPG

Puzzle a bit, re-read some posts. Leave citizen on pond. The odd gold is worth more than the odd shield, right, Bede?

Growth in 6. I'll have to re-read some more posts before then.

IBT:zzz . . .

Turn 5: 3750 BC
zzz . . .

IBT:zzz

Turn 6: 3700
zzz

IBT:

Turn 7: 3650
zzz

IBT:zzzz . . .


Turn 8:3550 BC
zzz. . . . .(everthing is going according to my master plan. nobody will suspect the sleeping empire)

Seriously, growth in 1. Reread Bede's post on happiness (post #60). Frankly, I'm not sure I understand it, but it looks like he means "don't monkey with the sliders until the new citizen is in place." So I don't.

IBT: Culture Expands! I see incense to the south!

Turn 9: 3500 BC
Mine finished.
Zoom to Constantinople.
We have a clown. Bede, did I misunderstand your post?
Assign clown to lake.
Go to F1.
10% lux gets me 1 happy, 1 unhappy. According to the civilopedia, this should be OK.
Send worker 1 E to begin road on forest.
Writing in 30, curragh in 1 (0 overrun), growth in 10.
Treasury 10, +0.

IBT:
Our first boat is produced.
Begin Warrior (despite what picture says)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/05_Constantinople.JPG
Builds:
constantinople curragh ==> warrior (4)

Turn 10: 3450 BC
Wow, I get to move a military unit. How exciting! There's desert and incense to the south.Hills to the north. I see something that can either be a coastline or a river delta to the south. South it is.
Worker begins road in forest NW of Constantinople. The road is nine turns out. That seems like an awfully long way. Based on what the map has revealed, normally, I'd go ahead and move worker to the other BG. But I'm going to stick with the plan and road the forest. This road is 4 turns now, or 4 turns later. But if I don't road the forest now, then units are two moves getting to the BG later, rather than being on it in one. So if I build another worker to road the BG, I can either be 4 or 5 turns getting the BG roaded.
Road the forest it is.

Zoom.
I could work the forest and get the warrior in 2, but growth is not for another 9 turns, so I don't need the MP. Moving to the forest delays growth by 9 turns and cuts science by 1 beaker and happiness by 1 smilie. Keep fishin', buddy.

IBT: zzz

Turn 11: 3400 BC:
Curragh moves one tile south. I spy sugar.
Curragh moves two more tiles south. I spy a fish and a goodie hut.

IBT:zzz

Turn 12:3350 BC
Turn the corner at the southeast edge of our continent. There's an island to the east.

IBT:
We build our first glorious Byzantine warrior.

Build:
constantinople: warrior ==> curragh (5)

Turn 13: 3300 BC
Frankly, I wasn't sure about the second curragh. But if our path to the stars is paved with contacts and trading, I need to send a boat north. We're allowed one more unit before we start paying costs (total 3 &allowed 4)
We now have a happy laborer and a content one, so I adjust science back to 100%, for writing in 22.
Explore further south. There's an island to the south of us, too.

IBT:zzz

Turn 14: 3250
I spy with my little eye grapes on the isle to our south.

IBT:zzz

Turn 15: 3200
Road to forest finished.
Move worker to NW BG. He'll begin road.
Zoom to const. Tinker with tiles. Working the mined BG and pond still looks best. Any combination with the forest may shave a turn off of the boat, but it cuts into growth or science.

IBT:zzz

Turn 16: 3100 BC
Begin roading the BG to the NW.
Continue mapping continent. Still no contacts.

IBT:zzz

Turn 17: 3050 BC
continue exploring.

IBT:
Finish second curragh.

Build:
Constantinople curragh ==> settler (8)

Turn 18: 3000 BC
Lux to 10%.
Send curragh 2 north, immediately spot a cow. (Should have gone this way in the first place).
Send curragh 1 north. Spot some jungle.
Move citizen to roaded jungle. Pop growth goes from 10 to 20, settler goes from 8 to 6, science goes from 6 to 7.
Writing in 17.

IBT: zzz

Turn 19: 3750
Finish road, begin mine.
Zoom to Const to assess terrain/citizen assignments.
If I work:
==> Roaded & Mined BG, Pond, and roaded forest, I get gross F/S/C=7/5/8, with 7 beakers, 5 shields, 7 food (for +1 fpt), growth in 19 and a settler in 5.

==> Roaded & Mined BG, Pond, and roaded grass, I get gross F/S/C=8/4/8, with 7 beakers, 4 shields, 8 food (+2 fpt), growth in 10 and a settler in 7.

==>Roaded & Mined BG, roaded forest and Roaded grass, I get gross F/S/C=7/6/7, with 6 beakers, 6 shields, 7 food (+1 fpt), growth in 19 and a settler in 5.

After a fair amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth, I decide the second option is best. My reasoning: It shaves 9 turns off growth and gets the settler in 7. It has the highest gross commerce, tied with #1, same with beakers. The settler will take two turns longer, but allow two citizens two more turns of working before they become a settler, working rather than wandering and costing us gold. It also has the shortest time between new settler production and the next pop growth. Admittedly, it has the absolute lowest shield count, but we're at maximum units right now. I should have thought of that before building the second curragh, but did not.

Way to the south, down by the grapes, I finally spy a border. Curragh #2 is about 6 turns away. I'll send him on around the northern end of our continent. Curragh #1 is only 5 turns away, but I hate to backtrack. At any rate, both will be sent to continue on their journeys, mapping the contours of our land. It appears we may have a large island/subcontinent all to ourselves at the moment.

IBT:zzz

Turn 20: 2900 BC
Curragh #2: Off the eastern seas, I can make out the edge of anoher island or maybe it's part of the same landmass I've seen in the south.
Spot more incense to the north.
Curragh #1: I see another border on a landmass across the western sea from our land. I don't know who it is yet. As this is the last turn of my set, someone will have to tell me who they are.

State of the Empire:
1 City
1 Worker
1 warrior
2 curraghs
0 contacts
0 New techs learned.
10 gold
+0 gpt
Research 90%
Lux 10%
Writing in 15

Constantinople:
Size 3, growth in 9
Settler in 6.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/06_Constaninople.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/07_Constantinople.JPG

And, for once, I remember to attach the save:

We have a clown. Bede, did I misunderstand your post?
Don't worry, he still gave you the shields for the turn.

Don't worry, he still gave you the shields for the turn.

Good to know, and thanks for the information. I just wasn't sure that I had understood Bede correctly. By the way, in the even nobody's welcomed you to the Lurker's Gallery, Welcome!

Well, I've never seen an SG with an official roster person, but I think that'd be fine.

I know, but with all the info in the first 4 pages, someone needs to help organize! Thx for the welcome, BTW. :goodjob:

Admittedly, it has the absolute lowest shield count, but we're at maximum units right now. I should have thought of that before building the second curragh, but did not.

Yes, you probably should have built the settler first, but configured it so that there were the fewest possible wasted turns.


I don't know who it is yet. As this is the last turn of my set, someone will have to tell me who they are.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/06_Constaninople.JPG


The Pink civ can be either France, Arabia, or the Inca. The Purples can be the Iroqouis, India, the Vikings, Portugal, or the Inca (their secondary color is purple).

EDIT: Oops, almost forgot:
Roster:
Trainer: Bede

The Rest of Us:
Aabraxan: Just Played
Elephantium: UP
Mr_2_You: On deck
Phaedo
D'Artagnan59
Cyllus

Good job Aabra:goodjob: . You certainly did as well as I could have:) . It was also very nicely documented.
Personally, I like the second dinghy build. We may lose 3 or 4 gold while the new settler moves but we gat a better chance at early contacts. We have 10 gold and can afford the deficit.

I guess I was way off with my idea about the city square only producing 1g:blush: . That three gold is nice. Why is that? 2g for the city square and 1g for fresh H2O?

Since I play my solo games on Monarch level and I've forgotten so much about Emperor openings, I have a very basic question at this point.

If the settler build continues as is, it will drop the population back to size 1 when the settler is produced, and that means a long recovery time back to productive size with little gold being provided for research.

OTOH, if the build is changed to another warrior (produced next turn), growth AND settler production will occur at the same time in another 8 turns, leaving a productive population of 2. Meanwhile the new warrior can explore and help protect against barbs (who should be showing up any moment). Gold would be at a negative -1 (assuming research is left at 90%), but will recover when the 2nd town is planted.

I feel like I should already know the answer, but I don't. :blush: Which way works better and why?

I don't know which one is better, but the -1gpt would continue until we get the second town planted and we only have 10gold at the moment. I don't think we could afford to run on deficit that long at the current research rate. We would have to drop the science slider or lose a unit. I don't think either is "better" per se but given our builds and our goal of the Phil gambit, I would say the way it stands now is our best bet but you would have to do the math to figure out if lowering the slider but keeping an extra pop would end up with more beakers than dropping to pop1 for 10 turns.

I guess I was way off with my idea about the city square only producing 1g:blush: . That three gold is nice. Why is that? 2g for the city square and 1g for fresh H2O?



I don't often play sea-faring civs, but I think they get one gold for a coastal position.

I don't often play sea-faring civs, but I think they get one gold for a coastal position.

That makes sense. Thanks Buce:D

I feel like I should already know the answer, but I don't. Which way works better and why?
Usually it's better to produce settler exactly on growth, but I'm not sure what will be better in this game. If you will meet other civilization soon, probably you will be able to get some gold to pay for that additional warrior.

Nice start :thumbsup:

We don't need that second warrior as the home MP can provide settler escort. But, a pop1 capitol is will decrease the research rate even more. I think we can afford the deficit for the 10 turns needed before the second town is planted.

And, as Smart says, the odds are good we will have some cash in hand from canny dealings.

I really should have this copied down somewhere (so now I did). I always search for it at CDZ. This is the production of the city tile:
Food :
• basic value : 2
• if civ = agricultural : +1

Shields :
• basic value : this of terrain
• if city size = city : +1
• if city size = metropolis : +3 if civ = industrious, +2 otherwise
• if no shield so far : +1
• if golden age = on : +1
• if mobilisation = on & city production = military unit : +1

Commerce :
• basic value : this of terrain, river bonus applying
• if city size = village : +1
• if city size = city : +4 if civ = commercial, +2 otherwise
• if city size = metropolis : +6 if civ = commercial, +3 otherwise
• if city = capital : at least 4
• if civ = seafearing & city = coastal : +1
• if government = republic/democracy : +1
• if golden age = on : +1

To all three :
if government = despotism, for shields and commerce, and for food if city not by fresh water : -1 if value > 2

Thank you TimB, that's fantastic! :D

First time I've ever seen that all organized in one place. Very helpful!!! Thanks, Tim. :goodjob:

:thanx: :clap:

solid turnset aabraxan.

one of the disadvantages of the 'explore by sea' route is that we have a fair amount of fog around our capitol and we have to decide where to position our next city.

here is my first ever dot map!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/06_Constaninople.alt.JPG

red dot - we get a cow advantage and maybe something else depending of whats in the fog. downside is that it will share two grassland tiles with the capitol. however. if the city expands early enough, we can switch usage of those tiles between the two cities.

pink dot - we get incense and sugar, but we'll have to do some irrigating (probably from the capitol southward) to get much growth.

blue dot - might be marsh, i dunno.

You should probably send the MP to explore in the direction that the Settler is going.

If the settler build continues as is, it will drop the population back to size 1 when the settler is produced, and that means a long recovery time back to productive size with little gold being provided for research.

OTOH, if the build is changed to another warrior (produced next turn), growth AND settler production will occur at the same time in another 8 turns, leaving a productive population of 2. Meanwhile the new warrior can explore and help protect against barbs (who should be showing up any moment). Gold would be at a negative -1 (assuming research is left at 90%), but will recover when the 2nd town is planted.

I feel like I should already know the answer, but I don't. Which way works better and why?

Gmaharriet makes a good point here and one with which I wrestled. I hated the thought of Constantinople dropping to size one. Still hate it. Pop-1 towns take forever to grow and just aren't very productive. OTOH, we need more cities. This isn't called the growth phase for nothin'. I considered the switch to a warrior, which would be good for exploring, but, as Bede points out, we won't need a second MP. The first warrior can escort the settler and Constantinople will be fine w/o an MP while it's size one. On the other side of the equation, I didn't want Constantinople to grow to size 4. At size 3, no luxes hooked up, we have to run 10% to get 1 happy, 1 content, & 1 unhappy. I didn't want to have to increase to 20% if it was not absolutely necessary.

Nice start :thumbsup:

We don't need that second warrior as the home MP can provide settler escort. But, a pop1 capitol is will decrease the research rate even more. I think we can afford the deficit for the 10 turns needed before the second town is planted.

So it sounds like a switch is in order.

solid turnset aabraxan.

one of the disadvantages of the 'explore by sea' route is that we have a fair amount of fog around our capitol and we have to decide where to position our next city.

No question. The second curragh was a gamble in terms of contacts, and we still need that fog busted. I haven't had a chance to assess your dotmap, but congrats on having made your first one. Even if we don't wind up using it, it's good experience and gives the team reference points for discussion.

red dot - we get a cow advantage and maybe something else depending of whats in the fog. downside is that it will share two grassland tiles with the capitol. however. if the city expands early enough, we can switch usage of those tiles between the two cities.

I don't have a problem with sharing two tiles with the capitol. They're two tiles on the very edges of the fat cross, so there are plenty of other tiles that can be worked without too much crowding. And yeah, we can switch off the tiles between the cites as necessary. You're right about the fog. I sure do like cows, though.

pink dot - we get incense and sugar, but we'll have to do some irrigating (probably from the capitol southward) to get much growth.

I like the pink dot. Sugar is not the powerhouse that a cow can be but it's a good solid resource. IIRC, +1 food, +1 commerce. And that incense might let us drop the lux slider to 0% again. That'd be nice.

blue dot - might be marsh, i dunno.

I don't think it's marsh, but I do think it's right up against the jungle.

I don't think it's marsh, but I do think it's right up against the jungle.



Think long term; underneath all that jungle/marsh is good quality grassland.

Think long term; underneath all that jungle/marsh is good quality grassland.

Just as important, there may be rubber in that jungle.

Just as important, there may be rubber in that jungle.

assuming we make it that long!

assuming we make it that long!

Come on Mr_2, let's have more confidence than that! It should read:

assuming they make it that long!

:D

Plains cows with water are the most powerful field in the early game. How are we going to get water to those cows? That is the question to answer

Plains cows with water are the most powerful field in the early game. How are we going to get water to those cows? That is the question to answer

By connecting the dots?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/94355/Aabra01_JPEG_07_irrigated.JPG

Could also save roading (for now) one of the grassland tiles by planting a town on the hill SW of the cow, which would act as a conduit for water running through the town. You'd also get the seafaring commerce bonus for founding on the coastal hill, defensive value of town being on a hill, and defending reinforcement from the capitol in 1 turn with movement via road to the town.

That would leave the other grassland tile free to be mined.

Could also save roading (for now) one of the grassland tiles by planting a town on the hill SW of the cow, which would act as a conduit for water running through the town. You'd also get the seafaring commerce bonus for founding on the coastal hill, defensive value of town being on a hill, and defending reinforcement from the capitol in 1 turn with movement via road to the town.

That would leave the other grassland tile free to be mined.

I considered that, but could not remember if a town on a hill would act as a conduit or not. Thanks.

Never thought of using a town that way GMHarriet, not sure I would in this case as we don't know what's N of that hill but definately a start I'll try to remember.

I'd probably go with Aabrax' way. Irrigation only takes what 4 turns? Less than the turns needed to make a Settler at this point. Another thing I've never actually checked but always mean to. If we were to continue with the Settler build wouldn't we lose the extra food and be put down to a 1 town with zero food stored?

Never thought of using a town that way GMHarriet, not sure I would in this case as we don't know what's N of that hill but definately a start I'll try to remember.

I'd probably go with Aabrax' way. Irrigation only takes what 4 turns? Less than the turns needed to make a Settler at this point. Another thing I've never actually checked but always mean to. If we were to continue with the Settler build wouldn't we lose the extra food and be put down to a 1 town with zero food stored?

Don't overlook worker turns that have to be invested in roading. Assuming that our worker goes "road-irrigate-road-irrigate-road-irrigate" (my plan), that's a total of 21 turns (3+4+3+4+3+4) before that cow is fully roaded and irrigated. Gma's plan, on the other hand, only requires 14 turns to achieve the same result: (3+4+3+4). Once the settler plunks down on the hill, the hill is considered roaded (right?) and acts as a conduit for the water. The settler should be finished 6 turns from now, unless the build is changed. In any event, as long as the settler can settle on the hill before 10 turns elapses (road-irrigate-road or 3+4+3), we don't lose any worker turns waiting for the settler to become a city/conduit. In other words, skip the middle step of my plan.

And all that in addition to the other beneficial effects that gma mentioned.

Caveat: Everybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of the above analysis.

I don't have time to do a dot map or anything as I'm am getting ready to head for work but the hill as a city location by the cow is nice. If we settled 1 south of the cow it could be a monster producer with the hills and the whale.

More later:)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/06_Constaninople.alt.JPG

My comments on the dot map as presented are in the drawing.

The half BFC in red shows the biggest reason I am not a proponent of red dot.

AAbraxan's dot connecting irrigation makes yellow a viable spot though without knowing what is northwest of it I can't say whether it is a good spot. With what I know now orange is the strongest, especially since we can bring water to the cows through the streets of the town. And once the cows have water it is possible to replace the irrigation on the grass field.

The added gold from roading fields to the second town site will be lost to corruption. It is far more important to get the cows watered and worked. So my sequence would be irrigate-move-irrigate, then road the cows, then back to mine and then road the grass lands.

And switching to a warrior will not keep Byzantium at pop2. The mine will finish before the settler in any case. If you train a warrior then a settler the city will drop to pop1 but grow back to 2 on the very next turn. If you don't train a warrior the town will drop to pop1 and take longer to get back to pop2.

If you choose the closer site (orange), you shouldn't have to reduce the research rate, as you can reduce the entertainment rate to zero once the settler is trained.

Settling 1SE of the orange dot makes the whale available too, which makes up for the lack of nearby food on the long run, and it makes the irrigation task one tile shorter to the cow than from the red dot's. On the other hand, it will require you to clear a lot of forest for constantinople early on, since it will eat away a few food tiles...

Make sure you think outside the dot maps when you look at them and do not hesitate to propose new things - they might not be as good, and Phaedo's idea may not be, but it is good to discuss city placement.

Edit: sorry for that, didn't read properly :blush:

Settling 1SE of the orange dot makes the whale available too, which makes up for the lack of nearby food on the long run, and it makes the irrigation task one tile shorter to the cow than from the red dot's. On the other hand, it will require you to clear a lot of forest for constantinople early on, since it will eat away a few food tiles...


That suggestion seems somehow familiar:mischief: . It's a good point about the forests though. Of course, once we get pottery, we will want to chop those forests anyway won't we.

what does BFC mean?

what does BFC mean?

I assume he means "big fat cross." The "fat cross" is the shape of all of the squares in the city radius. I may be wrong, though.

I have a blind spot when it comes to whales - and some will tell you I am just plain blind when it comes to planning city placements - but 1S of the cow herd is an excellent spot. Three food and two shields from the cows and the whales gives us two hills to work. Good eye.

My blind spot about comes from watching too many games where players chase whales at the cost of culture in corrupt towns. In a first ring city corruption is not as much of an issue though.

And Aa's explication of BFC is spot on.

Assuming that our worker goes "road-irrigate-road-irrigate-road-irrigate" (my plan), that's a total of 21 turns (3+4+3+4+3+4) before that cow is fully roaded and irrigated. Gma's plan, on the other hand, only requires 14 turns to achieve the same result: (3+4+3+4).
You're forgetting the fact that the worker uses a movement point when it moves to the new square. :p Really, your plan is 24, gma's is 16. :D

You're forgetting the fact that the worker uses a movement point when it moves to the new square. :p Really, your plan is 24, gma's is 16. :D

You're absolutely right. I totally overlooked movement turns.

I think Boern's suggestion of placing the new town on the grass tile S of the cow is a good one. I too missed spotting the whale, and that grass tile would give almost all the same advantages as the hill placement, with the single exception of the hilltop defensive bonus for the town. It would still allow irrigation to pass through the town and defensive reinforcement from the capitol in one turn as well as eliminating the need for another roaded and irrigated tile, and you'd still get the seafaring commerce bonus.

Perhaps, if you decide to train a warrior before the settler, the warrior could have a look at what's on the other side of the hill before a final decision is made on city placement. If there should happen to be a lux or another cow back there, it might affect your decision. Otherwise, the whale sounds great.

Got it. Looks like Aabraxan played 22 turns by mistake (2900 instead of 3000 BC).

My "shadow turns" had the following results.

Built Curragh and Warrior.
Settler due in 3 turns.
7 beakers, 1 happy face.
Writing due in 17 turns.
Met two civs (one almost by accident).
Road on 2nd BG due next turn.
Growth due in 20.


Specifics are beneath the spoiler tag.


Turn 0 (4000 BC):

Settle in place, making Warrior.
Worker to BG, citizen on lake.
Science 100%, Writing in 40.

Turn 1 (3950 BC):

Begin roading the BG

Turn 2 (3900 BC):
Turn 3 (3850 BC):
Turn 4 (3800 BC):

Road completes. Begin mine.

Turn 5 (3750 BC):
Turn 6 (3700 BC):
Turn 7 (3650 BC):
Turn 8 (3600 BC):
Turn 9 (3550 BC):

lux slider to 20% per Bede's guidance.

Turn 10 (3500 BC):

Culture expansion and growth: Citizens working the two BGs now in our territory.
Citizen 1 goes back to his fishing boat. Citizen 2 delves into our mine.
Lux slider to 10%: we have one happy and one unhappy citizen.
Curragh in 1 turn, no shields wasted!

Hey, we have Incense to our south!

Turn 11 (3450 BC):

Curragh sails north; city starts building a Warrior (due in 3 with MMing).
Worker starts roading a forest tile.

Turn 12 (3400 BC):
Turn 13 (3350 BC):

Curragh spots two Inuit Barbarians to our north - about 9-10 turns' worth constant travel to get to our city. We also see another landmass to the east, across one tile of sea.
MM: Lux slider to 20%, citizen to 2nd BG to net 4 shields this turn.

Turn 14 (3300 BC):

Citizen back to lake, Settler in 10. Science to 100%, our Warrior is doing MP duty.

Turn 15 (3250 BC):

The island to the northeast looks like it's probably a very small island, so the curragh sails north again.

Turn 16 (3200 BC):
Turn 17 (3150 BC):

Road completes. Worker to second BG.

Turn 18 (3100 BC):

We meet the Aztecs. They're up Pottery, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial. They also have two Workers for sale, but we have nothing with which we could trade.
Worker starts roading the 2nd BG.

Turn 19 (3050 BC):

We meet India (Curragh spots one of their warriors on the coast). They are also up Pottery, WC, and CB.
Lux to 20%, preparing for growth.

Turn 20 (3000 BC):

We get our 3rd citizen. We're working the two BGs and the lake by default. I move a citizen to the roaded forest, if we work the other BG next turn, we'll have the Settler done in 2 turns.

With respect to training a warrior before finishing the settler: Are we sure we want to do that? Growing from size 1 to size 2 takes 10 turns with the food we have. Growing from size 2 to size 3 also takes 10 turns - and it requires clowns/etc. to get there.

Granted, we can train more units faster at size 2/3, but that will only put us over our unit limit again.

We'll get more gold, too, I suppose. Still, the prospect of wasting nearly all the shields for Turn 23 hurts.

But training a warrior before the settler leaves more food in the bin when the when the settler completes and we grow from 1 to 2 in one turn. And having that second warrior means the MP can stay where he is so the lux impost actually goes to zero at size 2.

Then India was the Purple civ?

But training a warrior before the settler leaves more food in the bin when the when the settler completes and we grow from 1 to 2 in one turn. And having that second warrior means the MP can stay where he is so the lux impost actually goes to zero at size 2.

You have a point. Still, I don't like the idea of wasting three shields.

In other news, I made a dotmap, too.

If it weren't for Red's whale, I'd vote for Yellow (cows, coast, hill, BFC).
Green is a solid place to put a city (incense, coast).
Either teal or blue would make a good city location (coast, makes a "belt" across the continent, so the other civs are semi-cut off from the southern peninsula).

Would a third curragh be worthwhile? That wouldn't waste shields, and the settler's completion would drop us to size 2 instead of size 1. OTOH, the extra luxes necessary might hurt.

Got it. Looks like Aabraxan played 22 turns by mistake (2900 instead of 3000 BC).

You'd think that I'd have figured out how to count to 20 by the time I got to my age. . . :blush: Sorry, team. I'll take an 8-turn set next go-round to put things back on track.

I like the red dot myself. I'm not too worried about losing the hill defence. If that town comes under so much pressure that it needs the hill we will really be in trouble. Hard to argue with green (and do you see BOTH of those spices?:D). As for blue or teal, it's quite hard to say without seeing more.

The lack if vis causes me to support the warrior build as well. Although another dinghy build shouldn't be too far off IMO. Let's just make sure that we are roaded to the red spot by the time the settler comes along. I could be wrong but I think we will be down to 0gold when we actually found the city. We should also send the warrior out before the settler rather than n escort. It can protect it just as well running interference as it can moving with it.

@Boern I was just trying to be funny I hope it didn't come off as petty

I have a blind spot when it comes to whales - and some will tell you I am just plain blind when it comes to planning city placements - but 1S of the cow herd is an excellent spot. Three food and two shields from the cows and the whales gives us two hills to work. Good eye.

My blind spot about comes from watching too many games where players chase whales at the cost of culture in corrupt towns. In a first ring city corruption is not as much of an issue though.


Of course, that whale's out of reach until you get Literature. Unless Bede would like to build a temple for the culture expansion. :mischief: Seriously though, 1S of the cow is ultimately where you want that city.

I've been holding back from responding because never go CxxC for the first ring of cities yet that seems to be the overwhelming consensus here, thus probably the right choice. What happens later when we have so much overlap? I gess that's whree the intese MMing comesinto play :eek: So my MMing skills are so far behind because I avoid them I guess lol. Seems plantin cities in the best places is far more important than avoiding too much overlap.

I think red 1S of the cow is the first choice. After that, I think green so that we can grab the incense and the sugar. Naturally, that may change once a warrior has busted some of the fog.

@ Phaedo -- spices? Do you mean incense?

@ Cyllus -- I usually allow my capital CxxxC space, then switch to CxxC after that, so I've got some of the same problem.

Yes I did:blush:

I've been holding back from responding because never go CxxC for the first ring of cities yet that seems to be the overwhelming consensus here, thus probably the right choice. What happens later when we have so much overlap? I gess that's whree the intese MMing comesinto play :eek: So my MMing skills are so far behind because I avoid them I guess lol. Seems plantin cities in the best places is far more important than avoiding too much overlap.

The only problem I've encountered in going for CxxC placement is that your core may ultimately be hampered in getting up to 100spt in each city. In good terrain I can still manage it, but sometimes not until manufacturing plants make their appearance. I would think it more important to get every usable tile working ASAP. Having space to become a metropolis is not a concern for most of the game.

The AI almost always goes for CxxxC placement or even more spread out than that. Rule of thumb -- if the AI does it, it's usually better to do the opposite.

Of course, that whale's out of reach until you get Literature. Unless Bede would like to build a temple for the culture expansion. :mischief:


not to mention we'll need a harbor to take full advantage of the whale's +1/+1/+2 bonuses.

Really, Simple Monkey? The AI doesn't commit suicide, so does that mean it's better to commit suicide? :lol:

Really, Simple Monkey? The AI doesn't commit suicide, so does that mean it's better to commit suicide? :lol:

Are you sure of that? Have you ever seen an AI 1CC declare on your own powerful civ? I'd call that suicide. :p

I mean it doesn't disband units or buildings or abandon cities. Ever. This can end up being a bad thing for a 1CC AI on a low difficulty level, because their 1 city might have enough buildings to put them in a -gpt, and when they run out, all their units are disbanded. Leaving them undefended for a powerful civ to kill them. :evil:

who is the turn manager again and whose turn is it?

Choxorn is our turn manager. According to the roster he posted here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4967604&postcount=87

Elepantium is up and you are on deck.

What's the word, Elephantium?

Of course, that whale's out of reach until you get Literature. Unless Bede would like to build a temple for the culture expansion. :mischief: Seriously though, 1S of the cow is ultimately where you want that city.


Trying to bait TGOM are you?

The only problem I've encountered in going for CxxC placement is that your core may ultimately be hampered in getting up to 100spt in each city. In good terrain I can still manage it, but sometimes not until manufacturing plants make their appearance. I would think it more important to get every usable tile working ASAP. Having space to become a metropolis is not a concern for most of the game.

The AI almost always goes for CxxxC placement or even more spread out than that. Rule of thumb -- if the AI does it, it's usually better to do the opposite.

SimpleMonkey has it right. What we have right now is a need to get powerful fields in use to overcome the lack of resources. And growing past pop12 is almost an objective to be avoided. That 100spt is nice but not necessary at Emperor and can get real costly in terms of keeping the people smiling.

Or you could get the temple, wait 5 turns for expansion, then sell it. :mischief:
Mr 2 You: If we are getting forgetful of the roster:

Aabraxan: Just Played
Elephantium: UP, Playing (hurry up!)
Mr 2 You: On deck
Phaedo
D'artagnan59
Cyllus

OK, so we have our next couple of cities planned. What are your plans for the worker Mr_2?

@choxon, remember he switched with Elephantium because he's away

I believe Chox's roster takes the switch into account. Also, I haven't seen a "Got It" from Elephantium, so I don't know if he's playing yet or not.

Got it. Looks like Aabraxan played 22 turns by mistake (2900 instead of 3000 BC).


Looks like Tusker got it

Looks like Tusker got it

i know he played his own first 20 turns and posted results, but i didn't see a 'got it' either. if he's does have it, great! but if he doesn't and leaves for his weekend retreat without letting us know, i'm going to e-strangle him.

Overlooked that.

Edit: Cross-post w/ Mr_2.

@ Mr_2. Look at what Bede quoted. First two words.

For the benefit of the doubting Thomases in the crowd, I'd like to reaffirm that I have

GOT IT

and will post turnset results before I leave for the airport tomorrow morning.

Given that Bede posted your clear, if overlooked, "Got it," I don't think we doubt it any more. :) Anyway, have fun on vacation.

I need a quick hint: Do we road or irrigate the tile NE of the lake first?

I need a quick hint: Do we road or irrigate the tile NE of the lake first?

Whatever gets you the most in return - here irrigating that very tile gives nothing, so roading first gives you something. You'll want to do both anyways. Sometimes it depends on what you'll be doing: if you're making an archer and you do 5spt without a tile mined, road it first, 6spt won't make it happen faster. Roading often is like that: if the other gives you nothing, road is quicker and gives you gold, at least.

As for the cow though, that's another story...

@Phaedo: don't hold a thought about it, it was all legitimate. Gma didn't notice it either though ;) :lol:

Well, we need to irrigate it to get water to the cow in the next tile...but roading it has a chance to get the settler to its destination one turn faster (3 turns to road, settler due in 2 turns, worker hasn't moved yet this turn).

On one hand, we don't want to cross that square without roading it. On the other hand, we can get the cow irrigated (and City 2 growing faster!) 3 turns sooner if we irrigate and run.

It's not something I would normally do, but our slow start in this game is making me consider it.

Edit: In the absence of any further discussion so far, I'll road first.

Arg. I was ready to post, but I closed the window by mistake instead of getting back to the reply screen from the manage attachments page :(

The gist of it is: Lots of exploration, met the Aztecs (north, close), Inca (northwest, medium), and Indians (far north). All three have a significant tech lead - we have nothing to trade to them, they either have all 1st tier techs or lack only one.

Worker finished mining and started a road to the site of our new city. A warrior was produced - and started exploring - and our Settler will be at the new city site next turn. Also, I set our MP exploring - though this may have been a mistake. Comments?

We have 3 gold and are at -2 gpt, Writing due in 8.

Checking in and Good Luck to you all.
Point about a City on a Hill does NOT provide an irrigation conduit. :(

On one hand, we don't want to cross that square without roading it. . . . .Edit: In the absence of any further discussion so far, I'll road first.

Normally, I never, ever cross a square without roading it. But go back and read Bede's posts. I'm pretty sure he said that water-move-water might be the way to go.

Checking in and Good Luck to you all.
Point about a City on a Hill does NOT provide an irrigation conduit. :(


I thought I had read somewhere that a city on a hill does not provide a conduit, but I've never tested it. How sure are you of this? (Not to question your knowledge, but just to question your knowledge . . . )

I thought I had read somewhere that a city on a hill does not provide a conduit, but I've never tested it. How sure are you of this? (Not to question your knowledge, but just to question your knowledge . . . )



I will confirm it for you; it definitely does act as a conduit.

I will confirm it for you; it definitely does act as a conduit.

I have much to learn, but the city water conduit is something I've play-tested...even made a major part of city planning on a relatively arid map. Just trust us. ;) :p

since i'm up next, i'm going to need a decision on a few things:

1) city placement - i've read a bunch of posts, where is the city going? on the hill sw of the cow? on the grass south of the cow?

2)we've got a warrior due in 10 turns, do we need another warrior? should i bring back one of our explorer warriors?

3)given we're behind on tech, are we still going for the republic slingshot?

i won't be playing my turnset until tonight (friday night, playing civ). we've all day to discuss it but at the end of it, i'll need some final answers please.


oh, with pop growth next turn should i increase the lux slider on this turn or wait until next turn? sounds like i won't lose production if i wait....

Here's my thinking on these things, but I'd like input from others as well:

1) city placement - i've read a bunch of posts, where is the city going? on the hill sw of the cow? on the grass south of the cow?

1 south of the cow (on the grass). That will eventually let us grab the whale and we know that the grassland will act as a water conduit for irrigation. There's some debate as to whether the hill will do the same.

2)we've got a warrior due in 10 turns, do we need another warrior? should i bring back one of our explorer warriors?

Frankly, I don't really know. We've got 2 out exploring and I think they should keep busting fog, but I'm concerned about unit costs.

3)given we're behind on tech, are we still going for the republic slingshot?

I think so.

oh, with pop growth next turn should i increase the lux slider on this turn or wait until next turn? sounds like i won't lose production if i wait....

I didn't increase it for mine and it looks like I got a clown, but got the shields for the turn, too. So I think it's OK to wait until growth. Just don't wait until the turn after that.

I won't have an opportunity to look at the save in detail until after 6:00PM EST (-5 GMT).

My read of the consensus is 1S of the cow for city 2. Once the town goes down you can build lots more warriors, however I wouldn't other than for MP duty (2 per town for max benefit in despotism).

using the capitol MP for exploration concerns me a little. keeping him in the capitol at size 1-3 means no lux tax needed and only 10% at size 3.

And I did suggest water move water the cows then road the cows. That will be the first field worked by the new town, so better to have the gold there early. Also the one gold from the road will go to corruption anyway, so there is no gain until there are two citizens working.

We've got 2 (warriors) out exploring and I think they should keep busting fog, but I'm concerned about unit costs.


we are about to pop up another city, so the support issue will drop by the wayside... i was just wondering if something else might be more beneficial.

but I'm concerned about unit costs.



Your second city will shortly take care of that problem.

we are about to pop up another city, so the support issue will drop by the wayside... i was just wondering if something else might be more beneficial.



Your second city will shortly take care of that problem.

Once the town goes down you can build lots more warriors, . . .

I guess it'd help if I'd quit thinking that we're already a republic, huh? I keep thinking in those terms, not despotism terms. I spend so much of my time in republic in my other games, that's just what naturally comes to mind.

Wow, 164 (165 counting this one) posts and the game is only at 2550 BC!!! This is a lot of discussion. :eek:
@Elephant: I notice the Purple civ appears not to have been met. I wonder who it is (Iroqouis, Vikings, Portugese are possible). If France is in this game, they will have a different color than pink (since Inca has Pink).

Oh, and Roster:

Elephantium: Just Played (Have a nice trip, BTW!)
Mr_2_You: UP, Got it, will play tonight
Phaedo: On deck
D'artagnan
Cyllus
Aabraxan: Our leader :p

My read of the consensus is 1S of the cow for city 2. Once the town goes down you can build lots more warriors, however I wouldn't other than for MP duty (2 per town for max benefit in despotism).


acknowledged.

Looking at the save this is what I come up with:

Constantinople has 1 CONTENT citizen so will riot next turn if you don't up the lux slider
Move the warrior back. In 2 turns we can have him back home and move the lux slider back to 0
We need 1 food for growth and are now producing 2. Switch to the forest before hitting return to get the extra shields. However, I'm not sure what the next build should be. If we go for a warrior, the extra shields are well worth it. Another worker would do us a world of good although it would hurt our growth. The Aztecs are CLOSE and we don't have great growth potential. This is an important build so make sure you discuss it before barreling ahead. If you are impatient to play, do what I did in Cbob's AW game and play Tusker's set again yourself to get a feel of the game and see what you can do (BTW, great nick Bede, Elephantium is such a pain to type and "Tusker" is much cooler that Dumbo:) )


The square S of the cow is our best bet at the moment IMO. The thing is, both of our city locations need improvement. If we ignore the improvements we will be hamstrung. I really don't have the experience to make a definate call, but my gut says "build a worker." The only military units we can build are warriors (useless other than MP duty and busting fog) and we don't have the food capacity to build an effective force even if we had the techs. After a good round of trading, we might be able to be in a position to be threatening but only if we have the production capacity and that will take some land improvement.

I think your question about the Rep slingshot is a good one Mr_2. The other civs we have met already have the 1st tier techs so at least one is already researching writing. We will get it first though. Our shot at the Rep sling is gone but we can probably still get Phil first and should. I suggest that when we get writing, trade with whomever will give us masonry first and hopefully we can get at least one other 1st tier tech for it too (the AIs that gives us the best offers ought to be researching IW for the record). In order of importance, I would put masonary (b/c it's expensive), WC, wheel and then pottery. With some jumping between civs you coulds get all of them if you are lucky (India is down the wheel at the moment. That won't last, but you should probably trade with them last regardless as they will be furthest behind). When we get Phil, I say we go for math. That will give us the units we need for a proper army even if we don't have iron (even if we do, we won't know about it for a long time). If we have cats and archers we will be in a position to take on our neighbours. As we are outclassed in the tech race, some early pointy stick research will do us wonders. As a last thought, try all the possible trades you can think of (i.e. tech + various amounts of gold etc.) with ALL civs before posting. Regardless, pause and post at turn 8. If you have all the possible trade options, not only will you help the team decesion immesurably, you will have learned a lot about the trading process ;)

Also:

@ choxon:goodjob: you are far more organized than I am. Want to organize my curriculum for me:)

We should look to getting a city on that hill that the northern warrior is on. It would be a nice defence against the enevidable pressure from the Aztecs

The only real comment I have relates to exploration patterns.

When looking at the mini map it is apparent that there is a big land mass north of us and it is likely the two curraghs will meet in the north soon. I would have headed the most westerly one across the strait to the tip of land that is sticking up on that corner, rather than continuing around to the north.

I don't know when the border appeared but even if there had not been a border showing there when the curragh passed it would have been a better move to cross the strait and check out the land mass. Anytime you can get to another land mass you should seize the opportunity. It may only have been an island but it might have led to an even bigger continent to the west.

Moving out the MP was a high risk move. Anytime you have to reduce the research slider when you can keep the spending up by parking an MP in town you should do so.

Regarding Phaedo's comments I would train at least one more warrior for MP duty in the new city, and then one more before starting a second worker.

As for his trading priorities I am afraid he has them backward. I would make sure of gold first, then pottery, then whatever else may be going. Masonry is not all that big a deal, and warrior code is more useful anyway.

As for the Philosophy tech, it won't come up in your ten, but I certainly wouldn't go for mathematics. Map Making is more expensive and far more useful to us.

As for his trading priorities I am afraid he has them backward. I would make sure of gold first, then pottery, then whatever else may be going. Masonry is not all that big a deal, and warrior code is more useful anyway.

As for the Philosophy tech, it won't come up in your ten, but I certainly wouldn't go for mathematics. Map Making is more expensive and far more useful to us.

I'm easy whichever way we go, but don't blame me when the Aztecs come demanding at our doorstep and we have to wait to the MA to deal with them:mischief:

"Lurker Hotel? I'll take the Penthouse suite please."

Good luck, Guys.
Oh, pfft. Just because you're Alexander the Great's steed doesent merit you the penthouse suite. :rolleyes: ;)

Good luck all. Thanks to Bede (and Bucephalus) I can now comfortably play Emperor. :)

PARTIAL TURNSET

preflight -

i move the worker off the lake to the forests as someone (phaedo?) mentioned. our warrior is now due in 4

turns, population => 2 next turn.

2510bc - turn1
constantinople grows to 2, we have one content and one unhappy. looks like i have to mess with the lux slider

since our MP is out of town. at 10% we have one happy, one unhappy. i have to drop the science slider further

because we're running -2gpt and only have 1 gold in the bank. we now get writing in 7 turns, running -1gpt.

i start our warriordood back to constantinople. we need him there and can live with a single wandering warrior

for now.

our worker finishes roading, i start it irrigating.
our settler moves into place, we'll have a new city next turn.

writing in 8, -1gpt, 1g in treas

IBT - a volcano erupts waaaaay far away.


2470bc - turn2

found city of adrianople, citizen works cow for 2f2s, starts building warrior
our warriordood makes it back to constantinople, i fortify him. set lux back to 0% (2 contents)and science to

100%, we get writing in 4 turns now.


writing in 4, 0gpt, 0g in treas

IBT- nada


2430bc - turn3
constantinople finishes warrior, builds settler. we grow to size 3 in 8 turns and the settler will be finished

in 10 or fewer turns.

i turn our northern curragh around, it is now heading east.

writing in 3, 0gpt, 0g in treas

IBT - nada


2390bc - turn4

warrior and curraghs move.
no other changes

writing in 2, 0gpt, 0g in treas


IBT - aztec archerdood moves southward. exploring.

2350bc - turn 5
our worker finishes irrigating, move to cow to irrigate
warrior and curraghs move.

i can take science to 80% and still get writing next turn sooooo...

writing in 1, 1gpt, og in treas

IBT - we get writing


2310bc - turn6
since we can write, do we want to build embassies? NO, we have 1 gp.
adrianople finishes warrior, builds warrior. i know we need a worker, but the city won't grow before the worker

is ready.

tech trade time----!
monty will give pottery, wheel, ceremonial burial, warrior code and 5gp (he won't give up masonry too)
incadood will give same techs as monty plus 20gp (he won't give up masonry either)
gandhi will give us wc, cb, pottery, and masonry for writing.

i could trade with incadood, trade writing to monty for 60 gp and masonry and india gets left in the cold.


and here is the save so you can evaluate the deals for yourselveshttp://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/Aabra01_2310BC_mr2.SAV


so let me know you think and i'll finish my turnset.

a quick look for you:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/2310bc.JPG

Wouldn't it have been better to build Adrianople one tile NW? :)

Where it is will get the whale:).

First thing I did when looking at the save was his enter just to quickly check how many turns it would take our curraghs to get down to that purple border (14 turns... that's long) then reloaded to look at the trade ops.

The Warrior fortified in Adrianople can be moved out to break some fog to get better idea for our 3rd settlement, as could 1 of the Warriors in Constantanople, we don't need the MP presence for happiness atm. We need more info on our immediate surroundings, and definately need to contact that purple civ.

If Constantanople works the 2BGs the settler will be done in 5 and the city will grow in 5.

As for the trade ops.
Since Monty has more gold, get his 60 gold and whatever else he'll give up, CB, Wheel, Pottery, 60g.
Then get Inca's 48g and what he'll give up. If he won't give you everything then leave him Masonry, he'll surely give WC and 48g I would think.
Then go to Ghandi and get Masonry, we'll still be up the wheel on Ghandi... I'd actually offer the wheel and cash for Masonry and hold on to Writing.
We don't need 108g sitting in the bank for Inca or Aztec to demand. (Ghandi never scares me, if he'd ever demand writing I'd tell him to hit the road. w/out writing he wouldn't have anything to get inca and aztec into a dogpile).

We'll more than likely get Philo first if those 3 don't have IW yet (they always research that asap after the first tier).

Yes I have more lol. Both curraghs take 14 turns to get to purple civ. I'd actally take the Western Curragh down there as I doubt there's a hidden civ in those mountains. This would leave the Eastern Curragh to look at those 2 land masses to the east of Constantanople.

Can you dig that? I know I can! ;)

(BTW, great nick Bede, Elephantium is such a pain to type and "Tusker" is much cooler that Dumbo:) )

"Ivory" might be a god name too... also, D'arty is a nice nickname for D'artagnan.


@ choxon:goodjob: you are far more organized than I am. Want to organize my curriculum for me:)

Don't make me laugh! :lol: Darn it, you made me! :lol:


writing in 8, -1gpt, 1g in treas

writing in 4, 0gpt, 0g in treas

writing in 3, 0gpt, 0g in treas

writing in 2, 0gpt, 0g in treas

writing in 1, 1gpt, og in treas

This isn't nesscecary- only note when you change slider or something happens to turns. ;)


2310bc - turn6
since we can write, do we want to build embassies? NO, we have 1 gp.

Yes, you might want to do something about that... Or...


Our Treasury is running Dangerously low!
Later...
Our Deficit has forced us to disband Warrior (I forget this message, I've only seen it once :lol:)!

Later...

The Aztecs have declared war on us!

Later...

Sir, the Aztecs have captured Constantinople! They will pay dearly for this atrocity!


You have lost! You have suffered a humiliating conquest defeat. Time Spent:

Okay, that probably won't happen, but be careful!


tech trade time----!
monty will give pottery, wheel, ceremonial burial, warrior code and 5gp (he won't give up masonry too)
incadood will give same techs as monty plus 20gp (he won't give up masonry either)
gandhi will give us wc, cb, pottery, and masonry for writing.

i could trade with incadood, trade writing to monty for 60 gp and masonry and india gets left in the cold.
Good Idea IMO. But Cyllus has a good point too...

I'm pretty sure you can bring us to tech parity with one round of clever trading. I looked at the save and here's what I came up with:

Aztecs:
Wheel, WC, Masonry & 32 gold for writing

Incas:
Wheel, WC, Pottery, CB & 20 gold for writing. (But we're "getting close to a deal" on Wheel, WC, & Masonry for writing).

India:
Pottery, Masonry, CB & WC for Writing. (Edited to correct the mistake that Chox caught.)

So, here's how I'd handle it. Go to Incas first. You can get everything but Masonry from them +20 gold. Then go to Aztecs. Trade Writing to them for Masonry + as much gold as you can get. (Since you've traded it to the Incas at that point, two things happen: (1) Writing is devalued; and (2) they have fewer techs with which to bargain. I think the net result will be that you can get more of their gold than the 32 listed above.) You'll already have all of their other techs, so I think you may be able to clean them out. India won't have anything left to offer you at that time, but I'd be prepared to trade them Writing for a pittance in a turn or two just so that we get the trade before another AI sells it to them.

And if you do wind up with a bunch of gold in the bank, I say build us an embassy. Dealer's choice as to civ.

@ansar -- And Adrianople's current location also gets us water to the cow faster. I haven't playtested the "conduit on the hill" theory, but there's some debate as to whether it works.

India:
Pottery, Masonry, CB & WC for Masonry.

Masonry for Masonry? I didn't know you could trade a tech that both civs already had. :D

any advice on the builds?

Well, there aren't a lot of choices right now. It's pretty much warriors, workers, settlers and rafts. Obviously, that will change once trades are made. Looking at Bede's post, make sure MP duty is covered, then maybe a second worker?

The builds look good to me long as you send the warriors fog busting. Adrianopol's straight West and Constantanople's Southwest.
You could keep Adrianopol's fortified and switch that build to curragh to go East :crazyeye: but I'd leave them as they are for now. We can pump another curragh out soon enough.

In order to resolve the debate over whether or not water will pass through a town on a hill, I played the 2250bc save through to 2350bc. I won't upload it yet, as I moved the curraghs somewhat differently and it would contain spoiler info, but when you're ready and if you want, I will post it. All you would have to do is press "enter" and your worker would be ready to irrigate the cow with water passing through Adrianople...which I placed on the hill. It really does work. :)

Wouldn't it have been better to build Adrianople one tile NW? :)


Where it is will get the whale:).

Actually, Ansar has a valid point; in it's current position Adrianapole can work 6 land tiles of it's own + 3 shared with Constantinople. Positioned 1NW would give it 10 land tiles + 2 shared, and land tiles are much more versatile than coastal/sea tiles. The Whale doesn't really compensate for that disparity.

If you offer Writing first to India, they will give everything that they have; Aztecs will then give Wheel + gold; Inca will then give all their gold.

Net result = All 1st tier techs + gold in exchange for Writing.

Writing is so valued that almost any way you play it will net you all the gold plus all the techs. And don't be giving anything away to anybody. If Gandhi only has a pittance and no other trade bait he won't be getting Writing from anybody.

And the time to turn the slider down is when we can't afford to keep it at 100%.

Two exploring warriors is plenty! Any additional need to stay at home for the MP duty.

And once we have pottery one town builds a granary and the other builds a settler, after a warrior or two and a worker (one worker per town is the rule of Bede)

Be nice to have some archers out there, too.

Don't sweat the neighbors. They won't come calling with intent to pillage until they run out of room to settle and barbarian villages to visit.

@Builds: Spears/Archers (Spears are NOT completely useless!) as temp defense might be good idea, swords later. It might keep Monty and Pacha from sending a horde of Jags/Chasquis your way.

@Builds: Spears/Archers (Spears are NOT completely useless!) as temp defense might be good idea, swords later. It might keep Monty and Pacha from sending a horde of Jags/Chasquis your way.
:nope:

Warriors work just as well as Spears. The AI just looks at what units you have, not at the quality. Plus, building spears is unnecessary at this stage of the game. So is archers (unless you are going for a Archer Rush, which you guys arent.)

So is archers (unless you are going for a Archer Rush, which you guys arent.)

The reason for archers at this stage would be for killing barbs. At Emperor level you don't want to attack barbs with only warriors. I don't recall exactly how much stronger barbs have become, but seems like I recall Bede once calling them "Imperial Barbs" at this level.

The reason for archers at this stage would be for killing barbs. At Emperor level you don't want to attack barbs with only warriors. I don't recall exactly how much stronger barbs have become, but seems like I recall Bede once calling them "Imperial Barbs" at this level.
Oh, my bad.

I usually play with No Barbs in Emperor or above.

rest of turnset

2310bc - turn6

tech trade time----!
monty will give pottery, wheel, ceremonial burial, warrior code and 5gp (he won't give up masonry too)
incadood will give same techs as monty plus 20gp (he won't give up masonry either)
gandhi will give us wc, cb, pottery, and masonry for writing.


i'll spare the details, but i got all the gold and all the techs. gandhi got one hell of a deal, but it wasn't a giveaway. he still needs the wheel.


as pointed out earlier, i shift the workers around so that constatinople will grow and produce a settler in 5

turns. i wasn't sure about this move before because we were trying to maximize gold, right?

adrianople gets switched to a granary.
i build embassies with the incas and aztecs. 6gp shy to build india's.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/cuzco.JPG

the aztec screenie got flubbed, they had a single defender and no resources or luxes.


IBT - NADA

2270bc - turn7

curragh movement.

IBT - NADA

2230bc - turn8

exploration.
no new techs

IBT - zip

2190bc - turn9

exploration
no new techs

2150bc - turn10

worker finishes irrigating cow, begin road
exploration
no new techs

notes to the next player:
both of our cities will grow next turn.
we have two warriordoods and two curraghs out exploring.
there is a goody hut yet to be popped.



here be the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/Aabra01_2150BC_mr_2_you.SAV

I never said spears were useful. I just said they weren't completely useless. There's a difference. There's a few cases where the might be a little bit useful. Like say, if you fight a really early war and your opponent has units with 2 movement points (Like the Aztecs and Inca). You might want a few for defense, since they can attack the cities before you can get them (unless they have to cross hills/mountains/other terrain that costs more that one movement point, or you have thick enough borders to stop them)- And archers aren't quite as good as spears on defense (swords are, but you need to get IW and Iron first- that could take a while). Or if you want to upgrade them to pikes (also kind of useless) and later muskets, rifles, etc. Or if you were attacked by enemy Tanks... :spear: :lol:
Just my $0.02 (I've always wanted to say that :D).
EDIT: (Sees Mr 2 You's post) Want End of Turn Screenie! :hammer:

Oh, and...
Roster:
Mr 2 You: Just Played
Phaedo: UP!
D'arty: On Deck
Cyllus
Aabraxan: Still learning from this game (Hopefully I'll learn too)
Tusker: Away 'til the 20th (Have a nice trip!)

Important note to next player - no popping villages with warriors at Emperor and above. There are three things that can happen and two of them are bad. That is not good odds in my book. You don't want three barbarian warriors running loose.

Now if you pop the village with a settler by building a town and any border overlap with the your existing cultural borders is on the side of the town furthest from the village you will not get yokels when the village vaporizes.

But it has to look like this: existing border - new town - village

If the village is between the overlapping borders then you run the risk of getting yokels.

And if the village is in no man's land between the old border and the new town's border you won't get yokels. But if you build towns that far apart I'll want to talk to you later!

I got it. I probably won't be able to get to it today. opefully tomorrow. I'll look at the save and state my indentions for discussion in a bit:)

So who can tell me why I like this spot for the settler?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/City3.jpg

And humor TGOM and set up your preferences this way

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/Prefs.jpg

And turn off the g-d music!

Now back to the game

Pay a little closer attention to commerce. One simple move will shave two turns off Philosophy. It slows down the build but since anything will build except troops is going to cost us something but in this case it's better late than soon.

So who can tell me why I like this spot for the settler?


3 BGs, tobacco and it's coastal? Looks like a good spot to me. It has access to a hill so it will be able to produce once we get out of despotism, lots of grass to grow and it cuts the southern part of the peninsula giving us a natural zone of control. The forests for chops don't hurt either and it can be reinforced from the capital in one turn. What did I miss?

If we put the Adrianople citizen on the roaded grass until the cow gets a road and put the slider up to 100% Phil goes down to 18 turns (from 23)

TGOM, why are "Ask for build orders after unit construction" and "Always build previously built unit" On? I thought you only needed the first one!

@choxorn, because I am lazy. If I am training troops it's easier just to hit enter, but I want the choice in case I change my mind. But I don't want to sort through the choices since I don't often change it.

@Phaedo, got it in one, or was that two? :)

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong save:(. So the settler is due next turn. That gives us 4 more allowable units. Adrianople is on a gran (do we want one there now? What about a rax?). We can also build archers and we need at least one more worker. Any thoughts on the builds? Personally, I'm tempted to put a rax in Adrianople, start chopping the forests to speed up a gran build inthe capital (the forest would give us more grass which should quickly give us 5 turn growth in the capital) and starting a worker with the new city. Now, city improvements will cut into our research funds so I'd like TGOM to sign off on the builds before I change anything. What does the rest of the team think?

Well, no comments. I'm not sure what to do. I can play now or wait about 24 hours. I guess I'll wait for a bit and check back. I don't want to commit us to a course that the team disagrees with.

Granaries are always nice. Barracks are not high on the list, yet.

Pay a little closer attention to commerce. One simple move will shave two turns off Philosophy. It slows down the build but since anything will build except troops is going to cost us something but in this case it's better late than soon.

what simple move in which city are you talking about? isn't growth more imporatant than research or commerce at this stage ofthe game?

Kommerce is King when you are trying to get to Philosophy first. And while you are working towards Republic. Once those two goals are accomplished then growth takes precedence - hence, granaries.

Is this still open for play?

@sercer88 -- No, the roster's closed, but you're welcome to lurk. In fact, we've got two players listed as "holding for open slots," but I'd be glad to add you to that list if you'd like.

Welcome Sercer! And...
Roster:
Trainer:Bede

Players:
Mr_2_You: Just Played
Phaedo: UP, Got it
D'Artagnan59: On Deck
Cyllus
Aabraxan: Mr. President (This is getting really old)
Elephantium: On Vacation until Saturday

Holding for open slots:
CoolioVonHoolio
SimpleMonkey
Sercer88

Is it alright if I am on the hold list? I've never played an SG or TDG, so I might do REALLY bad, not to mention the fact that I don't like the thought of writing down every single thing I do. So if at all possible, I would like to play a no larger than standard size map.

Is it alright if I am on the hold list? I've never played an SG or TDG, so I might do REALLY bad, not to mention the fact that I don't like the thought of writing down every single thing I do. So if at all possible, I would like to play a no larger than standard size map.

sercer, Here is what Aabra wrote in the very first post of this game:

"Welcome to Aabra01. This is a Training Day Game. It's going to be played at Emperor, but is open to players of any skill level of Emperor and below. If you're out there lurking and wishing you could get beyond Warlord, come on in! We don't care what skill level you're at; just be candid about your skill level and come ready to learn."

If the roster weren't already full, that would include you, so you're eligible for the hold list. However, you'd have to be prepared to write down (not ALL) enough of what you do for the other players to understand what's going on. I believe this game IS on a standard size map.

So far as being REALLY BAD, the whole purpose of a training game is to make all the players LESS bad. :D You'll learn a lot more from playing a game like this than from any amount of reading and playing by yourself. I know that I was REALLY BAD when I first got into one of Bede's training games, and I became a lot better. Hmmmm, come to think of it, I could still use some more training myself...a LOT more. I still play at mostly Monarch. :mischief:

So the plan is to improve our infrastruscture as much as possible in10 turns. I am worries that our military is weak but I'm going to suck it up.

2150BC T0

OK, I changed the Adrian citizen and changed the build to a settler. I wanted a worker but it would waste 2 shields. It may actually be better to waste the shields. I'm not really sure. We have cash in the bank . I mixed a drink and thought about it and decided that wsting the shields is the way to go. We will have 3 cities, only 1 worker and we need to chop forests. I may get blasted for it after but decide to do it anyway (blast away:D)

IBT An Incan scout moves near our northern warrior. The Incans are building the pyramids and Constantinople (not Istambul:)) builds its settler and switches to a gran (in 10)

2110BC T1
N warrior goes N nd S warrior goes S (I want to bust as much fog as possible while still being able to make it to the new city before it grows)
The settler moves W to the spot near the jungle.
I decide to take the Eastern raft back south (it can reach an unexplored island in 7 where it would take the Western one 10 just to get to the tip of our sub continent)


IBT Adrian builds a worker and starts another (it'll finish the same turn it grows). I figure we will make up the gold through Constantinople's and the new city's growth.

2070BC T2
New worker moves to the roaded forest for a chop
The settler moves west. There is tobacco on our proposed city location. If we moved to the hill we would lose a tobacco and a BG. We could settle on the BG, get both tobacco and still be coastal. As we have decided to max gold at the expense of shields I guess we should do the latter. We get the same grass so it is a trade of a gold for a shield. We would also get a forest chop rather than jungle. I'm going to do it and I hope it is the right decesion for this game. I would probably take the extra BG if I was playing solo.
It is all jungle around there BTW. I thought it was forest. On the up side, it does look like there is a river running through the jungle.
warriors and boats do their things

IBT Zzzz

2030BC T3
worker finishes roading the cow. Now the worker would finish in 3 with growth in 6. Change to a warrior as that can't hurt and the southern one can open up our sub-continent. This worker will go chop as I am going to build another worker after the warrior so we won't need the irrigated grass for a while.
Other worker starts chop.

IBT An aztec archer moves to the hill near the jungle

1990BC T4
It looks like both the Aztecs and Incas have IW. I'm getting a bit nervous to tell the truth.
worker moves for a new chop.
Found Caesar's Ghost and put the citizen on a tobacco (Phil in 12)


IBT Zzzz

1950BC T5
Southern warrior finds spices in the South. That give us 3 possible luxes

IBT Zzzz

1910BC T6
The S warrior finds a Barb fort. It is 10 turns from CG

IBT Zzzz

1870BC T7
worker finished chop and the gran is in 11. Heads to road the tobacco
I must have forgotten to change Adrian's build as it is waiting for growth for another worker to be built (sorry:mad: )

IBT Aztecs start the pyramids

1830BC T8
Eastern boat starts exploring the island

IBT Zzzz

1790BC T9
Adrian finishes its worker and I start an archer (in preparation for the barbs). It can be easily changed
chop is finished and both workers start roading. The newly built workerstarts mining the irrigated grass
The southern warrior is heading back to the north
Change CG's build to a boat to explore the southern island (we can shuffle the warriors for MP duty and keep the people happy if the southern warrior heads straight for CG). The warrior will take 7 turns to get there. Adrian will grow in 7. When CG grows in 5, the roads will be finished and Constantinople's warrior can head over while being replaced by Adrian's. When Adrian grows we will probably have to turn the lux slider up for 1 turn then the new warrior will arrive in CG and everyone can shift. The build can be changed back to have the warrior build with CG's growth if TGOM doesn't want to move the slider.

IBT Zzzz

1750BC T10
Boats and warriors move

I don't know. I made some iffy calls and some mistakes. Hope it dosesn't mess things up. I feel so much more comfortable working towards being strong militarily, I am quite a bit out of my comfort zone here.

Photobucket is down for maintenance so no screenies, sorry

To be honest, I'm quite nervous about the way things are going. The Aztecs have 5 cities and you know they are building military. The archer that I saw briefly was a vetran. They are fast running out of room and we will be their first target. Moreover, they have the best land near us and they can build swords. we have all of 5 rWarriors and no raxes. We don't have very good land to grow so I would feel much more comfortable if we were stronger militarily. In fact, I would think that an earlyish successful war with the Aztecs would put us in the best position. The problem is that we are in no way prepared or preparing for war. Maybe this feeling is just because I have been playing warmongering games recently but I forsee trouble in our future. It would be nice to have at least 1 rax in a productive city so that when we get IW from trades we will be ready to get strong quickly. Maybe I'm being paraniod though:)

It would probably be a good idea if there was general agreement on how to respond to an AI demand, since it's not possible to save the game and ask when the diplo screen is open.

If - as I suspect you will - you adopt a policy of appeasement, aside from the obvious point of not accumulating excess gold, it may also be an idea to hook-up only one source of each luxury for the time being

To be honest, I'm quite nervous about the way things are going.


wasn't someone complaining that phaedo01 wasn't challenging enough? ;)

i question the logic behind changing the granary to a worker in adrianople. upon finishing the granary, we would have been able to pump out workers/settlers more quickly while maintaining productivity in the capitol (maybe even building a baracks there). i know we need more workers, but i think our efforts were handicapped by making the switch.


also, we're building another boat? we've already got two floating around. wouldn't an archer or worker be better for us?

My $0.02:

Looking at Phaedo's turnlog (I haven't looked at the save) makes me think that it's time to build some military. A few archers might keep the Aztecs off our backs for a little while.

That said, I also think that if they come demanding in the near future, appeasement might be the better part of valor right now. I hate to say that, because I really & truly hate giving in to AI demands, but that might be the best way to survive the short run, so that we can prevail in the long run.

I hate to say that, because I really & truly hate giving in to AI demands,

i think we all realize that peaceful coexistance with the aztecs is almost impossible. if they come demanding, they will pay for it in the long run.

Is it alright if I am on the hold list? I've never played an SG or TDG, so I might do REALLY bad, not to mention the fact that I don't like the thought of writing down every single thing I do. So if at all possible, I would like to play a no larger than standard size map.

Sure, it's alright. I have put you on the Hold List. You're third out and if I wind up extending invitations, they'll be handed out in the order that requests to join were received.

As gmaharriet pointed out, I opened this game to any skill level of Emperor and below. I don't care if you play badly. I have made some absolutely monumental mistakes in the TDGs in which I've participated and I'll be the first to say so. The whole point of TDGs is to improve.

And we are playing on a standard-sized map.

Can anyone else download save and take screenie?

Roster:

Phaedo: Just Played
D'arty: UP
Cyllus: On Deck
Aabraxan
Tusker: Still on vacation
Mr 2 You

I have also made huge mistakes in SG's- that weren't TDG's!!! :lol: But, I've learned, and I can play pretty well on lower levels right now (I'm playing my first Regent game right now and I'm keeping up with the AI :D) I would still like to play a TDG sometime, rather than follow one, but I don't see that happening unless I start one myself (And I am not the best SG host in the world), as everyone else puts them on C3C. :mad:

Some pics for joo

Here's the West side of the Island
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Aabras_1.JPG


Here's our land
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Aabra_2.JPG


And here's our immediate Empire!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Aabras_3.JPG


We have Philo in 6, my main objective would still be to contact that southern civ to broaden our trade ops, that said i'd still change the Curragh build :lol: to rax and archer to granary to get our frst 2 cities pumping settlers/workers asap. Best to grab as much land as possible. Aztec still has a good chunk of land to settle and by the time they do we will be able to trade incense to them to keep them very happy, with them happy it won't matter much if Inca demands. We can tell him to get lost and he'll have to slowly cross those jungle tiles with 1 or 2 units at a time (Remember the AI is still stupid when it comes to war tactics). I think we're still in good position atm.

wasn't someone complaining that phaedo01 wasn't challenging enough? ;)

Fair enough. It's not that seems more challenging, I am just uncomfortable with the way things are going. I know we will be safe enough and we are researching well, but it just feels like we should have been thinking about taking a swipe at the AI earlier. At the end of the day, I suspect it's a style issue.

i question the logic behind changing the granary to a worker in adrianople. upon finishing the granary, we would have been able to pump out workers/settlers more quickly while maintaining productivity in the capitol (maybe even building a baracks there). i know we need more workers, but i think our efforts were handicapped by making the switch.

I understand the concern. We did get 20 extra shields towards a gran in the capital because of the workers. Adrian will also be producing 5spt when it grows and in a turn or two we will be able to reinforce our small empire. Granted, I wish I didn't muddle the final worker build but I'd rather the capital grow faster than Adrian.


also, we're building another boat? we've already got two floating around. wouldn't an archer or worker be better for us?

I hate building regular units and we don't have raxes. The build ca be switched easily enough but we still haven't met the southern civ and the eastern boat will take quite a while to even reach there. Finally, 3 boats for suicides gives us a fair chane of making it to another continent. The earlier we do that, the better trading position we will be in.

Cyllus, adding the minimap in one of the screenies would have been helpful... :)

A few archers might keep the Aztecs off our backs for a little while.

That said, I also think that if they come demanding in the near future, appeasement might be the better part of valor right now. I hate to say that, because I really & truly hate giving in to AI demands, but that might be the best way to survive the short run, so that we can prevail in the long run.


Caving in to AI demands at this stage is the best way to survive and it is the only way to survive at Demi-god or above. Their turn will come, as someone has already pointed out. That is why it is a good plan to limit the gold in the kitty to what is needed to finance the next research project or two and to keep a paper cutout military presence.

Going to fire up the save and see what other commentary I might have.

The only real comment I have relates to exploration patterns.

When looking at the mini map it is apparent that there is a big land mass north of us and it is likely the two curraghs will meet in the north soon. I would have headed the most westerly one across the strait to the tip of land that is sticking up on that corner, rather than continuing around to the north.

I don't know when the border appeared but even if there had not been a border showing there when the curragh passed it would have been a better move to cross the strait and check out the land mass. Anytime you can get to another land mass you should seize the opportunity. It may only have been an island but it might have led to an even bigger continent to the west.



I am tempted to rant here, but I am not going to.

The curraghs are so far out of position it hardly bears comment.

There is a fat juicy border sitting unattended and the curraghs are chasing each other's tails back across waters already, for the most part, covered.

This will prove to be the most expensive, and avoidable, error in this game.

Had the westernmost one turned south when I pointed this out, the purple people would have been met by the time Philosophy came in, and probably one other nation. As it stands we are now nearly as many turns out to make that contact.

Worker actions also appear "less than optimal". The worker cutting a grassland road should have been cutting trees instead at Constantinople. That would have had the granary on line and there would be more progress towards a barracks.

It is gratifying to see three towns and three workers though.

Next steps: you will know the location of iron soon enough. Get a barracks in both Adrianople and Constantinople and get MPs in place, then start training an assault force. Use the new town as a settler farm for now. To get the commerce we need we are going to have to get into the river banks in Monte's lands. Getting to space on the commerce potential of roads and coastal cities alone will be tough.

I would research Literature after you choose the free tech from Philosophy.

I would research Literature after you choose the free tech from Philosophy.

are we going for the great library? :sad:

Not for the GL but for regular Libs to speed research if I'm not mistaken.

I should have turned the western boat around, my bad.:sad: . The workers just finished chops. We get the gran in 5 right? Wouldn't the chop come in after the gran?

Not for the GL but for regular Libs to speed research if I'm not mistaken.

I should have turned the western boat around, my bad.:sad: . The workers just finished chops. We get the gran in 5 right? Wouldn't the chop come in after the gran?

Correct on Literature.

I never could count axe strokes. I would have had the citizen fishing in the lake for the commerce so the granary build drops to 17, or something like that.. But it's better to save at least one stand of trees for bookshelves.;)

The workers just finished chops. We get the gran in 5 right? Wouldn't the chop come in after the gran?

Would that have been so bad? The shields are counted on the interturn right? If the chop comes in on the turn after the granary is finished (but not on the interturn before the gran is actually finished), that's a 10-shield jump on a rax, isn't it?

The chop is counted at the end of your turn, upon pressing enter (like all worker jobs that aren't overworked), way before the production, so if you had hit 50 shields on that inter-turn, the granary would've been perfect. On a 60 shields mark, this is a chop wasted.

So if we have 10 shields remaining on a build at the end of the turn and the chop finishes up, the chop completes it before the interturn phase? Am I understanding that correctly?

Argh, my brain hurts! :crazyeye:

I would have had the citizen fishing in the lake for the commerce so the granary build drops to 17, or something like that.. But it's better to save at least one stand of trees for bookshelves.;)

I love the bookshelves line:D

You are right Bede. I checked out both options when I got home from work (disbanded all other units to avoid spoilage)
In both scenarios, the gran gets built in 1675 but if I had changed the citizen and chopped instead of roading, we would have had 4 more beakers towards research with 3 woodlots left for your bookshelves:) . I didn't even think of that, I just figured we would waste shields.

As for the axe strokes. It seemed to only take 4 turns. I thought clearing took 6. Does anyone happen to know how long it takes to chop forests and jungles and clear marshes? Also, our wood is shared between CG and Constantinpole. If we chop in a shared square that doesn't have a citizen working it, where will it go? Can we choose the destination by say, placing a citizen on it the turn before the chop is finished?

@Aabra, while you are right that if we built a rax after the gran a late chop wouldn't be wasted (whereas an early chop might waste shields i.e we only need 4 more to complete but the chop comes in and we waste 6), I think roading first is more efficient. The rax will take a number of turns so we still have time for a chop to add to it (definately something to consider as we have 4 wood lots at the moment). By roading we get the benefit of the roads (read: money and movement) while we chop rather than having to wait until after the chop for them. Putting 10 shields in the bank doesn't really give us any immediate benefit where roads do.

@Mr 2, I think the worker build was the better move despite wasting the 2 shields but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Why don't you replay my set for yourself (without opening up any more of the fog) and see what you come up with. I would be interested in the results.

For learning and discussion purposes, I am wondering what people thought of both that issue and the different city location. I agonized over both of them and I stand by my decesions but I also feel I may have overlooked something.

I also have a question Bede, you mentioned that Maps are more helpful than something else (I think Math was my suggestion but let's throw in CoL too). Is this because it is more vluable (meaning requires more beakers) or because it is more valued by the AI (gameplay issues)?

Just for the record, I'm not lobbying for Math but my reasoning was to get cats. We don't have horses so if we don't have iron either we could still take an effective swipe at the Aztecs with cats and archers.

IAs for the axe strokes. It seemed to only take 4 turns. I thought clearing took 6. Does anyone happen to know how long it takes to chop forests and jungles and clear marshes? Also, our wood is shared between CG and Constantinpole. If we chop in a shared square that doesn't have a citizen working it, where will it go? Can we choose the destination by say, placing a citizen on it the turn before the chop is finished?
IIRC it was 6 turns (edit: apparently it was 10) in vanilla/PTW and changed to 4 turns in C3C. If the forest has multiple candidate cities, it will search in the order (from the forest) NE, E, SE...N, NNE, NENE...NNW. You can choose the destination by changing the other city(ies) to a wonder or palace.

TimB, you are truely a wealth of information. Thanks tons:worship:

how long are we giving for an 'i got it'?

@Aabra, while you are right that if we built a rax after the gran a late chop wouldn't be wasted (whereas an early chop might waste shields i.e we only need 4 more to complete but the chop comes in and we waste 6), I think roading first is more efficient. The rax will take a number of turns so we still have time for a chop to add to it (definately something to consider as we have 4 wood lots at the moment). By roading we get the benefit of the roads (read: money and movement) while we chop rather than having to wait until after the chop for them. Putting 10 shields in the bank doesn't really give us any immediate benefit where roads do.

While an immediate benefit is nice, it's more important to me that we simply avoid wasting the shields. Shields going to the granary - great. Shields going to the rax - great. Shields going down the pipes - not so great.

For learning and discussion purposes, I am wondering what people thought of both that issue and the different city location. I agonized over both of them and I stand by my decesions but I also feel I may have overlooked something.

I like the improved city location. When Bede made his dotmap, the tobacco couldn't be seen because of fog. I think the revelation of tobacco changes the analysis a bit. Had the tile been plain grassland, I would have said that settling where you did was a mistake. But tobacco is +1 commerce and that's what we're looking for. What I don't know right now is the corruption level of CG. That additional gold may get eaten up. Can we make up for it with more roads and the fact that CG will have 2 roaded tobaccos? I don't know.

IIRC it was 6 turns in vanilla/PTW and changed to 4 turns in C3C. If the forest has multiple candidate cities, it will search in the order (from the forest) NE, E, SE...N, NNE, NENE...NNW. You can choose the destination by changing the other city(ies) to a wonder or palace.

While Tim is absolutely right on where the chop will go and number of turns (for a non-industrial civ) in C3C, vanilla/PTW was 10 turns :eek: for a forest chop.

If you want more info on how forests and jungles work, here's a link to Cracker's Opening Moves article in the War Academy. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/cracker/civ3_starts/forestry.htm Note that it was written in 2002 for vanilla/PTW, and so it contains the "10 to chop" as well as an error in where the forest shield benefit goes. I'm not sure whether the error regarding where the chop goes is actually an error or was a vanilla Civ difference. There's nothing in the article about swamps because they didn't exist in vanilla.

IIRC it was 6 turns in vanilla/PTW and changed to 4 turns in C3C.
Tim, it was 10 turns in vanilla/PTW... ;)
how long are we giving for an 'i got it'?
Give D'arty 3 days. I know for a fact that he's also up in SM4 EDIT: TLM01, and I also know he's a bit busy right now.

how long are we giving for an 'i got it'?

A little longer. On the first page, I said:

As to timelines, I don't see the usual "24 to get and 48 to play" as being feasible, simply because of the nature of this beast. How about 48 to grab, 96 after that to play? I'm open to suggestions here.

By my calculations, we're at about 30 hours since Phaedo's post.

I am a little late on this opinion, but, I will point this out.

CG's city location, I think, would have been better in the long run, if it were next to the ocean. For one, the city square would recieve an extra commerce, making up for the tobacco we settled on. Also, it's a sea city, I think a sea city has a whole bunch of commerce, and they are especially good once a harbor has been built. Sure, it won't have awesome production, but, I think the commerce benefit would have been better.

CG's city location, I think, would have been better in the long run, if it were next to the ocean.

It is on the ocean. Note that it's building a curragh, which can't be done in landlocked cities.

@Mr 2, I think the worker build was the better move despite wasting the 2 shields but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Why don't you replay my set for yourself (without opening up any more of the fog) and see what you come up with. I would be interested in the results.

For learning and discussion purposes, I am wondering what people thought of both that issue and the different city location. I agonized over both of them and I stand by my decesions but I also feel I may have overlooked something.


Workers are always good, especially since they don't cost anything (yet) while buildings do. If you want to get analytical about it try to plan buildings to come on line when the commerce is there to pay for them.

The game adds all the commerce from a city, subtracts corruption, subtracts maintenance for buildings, applies building multipliers (distributed according to the slider settings), adds anything remaining and any gold per turn inflows from other nations to the empire's cash flow then subtracts unit costs and gold per turn outflows to other nations to derive the total imperial income. It is important to remember that any cash inflows from other nations do not get added to the science or entertainment budgets, nor are they multiplied by multiplier buildings. But they do get applied to empire wide costs like troop maintenance or gold per turn outflows.



I also have a question Bede, you mentioned that Maps are more helpful than something else (I think Math was my suggestion but let's throw in CoL too). Is this because it is more vluable (meaning requires more beakers) or because it is more valued by the AI (gameplay issues)?

Just for the record, I'm not lobbying for Math but my reasoning was to get cats. We don't have horses so if we don't have iron either we could still take an effective swipe at the Aztecs with cats and archers.

My choice of maps is based on two considerations: 1) beaker value; 2) availability of harbors. The two commerce per coastal field with no worker turns invested is hard to overlook. The AI valuation, better stated, the AI willingness to research it for themselves, is pretty low, IIRC.

The other choice, of course, would be Literature, and is something to consider as well as Code of Laws or Mathematics.

It is on the ocean. Note that it's building a curragh, which can't be done in landlocked cities.

Ahah! I now see the error of my ways:blush: Mea culpa. But really, that city doesn't LOOK like it is on the ocean

It's hard to tell from the screenshots. I had to look a couple of times to be sure that it really is on the coast before I posted that. But Bede makes an excellent point about harbors generating commerce without investing worker-turns. Putting it on the tobacco would not have opened up any additional sea squares, though.

If it weren't coastal, I think the new spot would have definately been a bad call. If we had settled on the tobacco we would have lost the bonus. We risk some disease with either spot.

@Bede, thanks, I was just curious to the reasoning behind the comment:)

As far as research goes, I am happy with taking our trainer's suggestions. I mau moan and groan a bit because it is not my typical style of play but I'm here to learn so no worries. Being dragged out of the cave into the light is never comfortable;)

I need a skip.

After-school activities (drama), homework, skip me please.

Done. I believe Cyllus is now up.

Choxorn -- A roster, if you please?

Okay:

Phaedo: Just Played
D'arty: Skipped
Cyllus: UP (Also up in n's religousSG, or will be as soon as I post my set :rolleyes:)
Aabra: On Deck
Tusker: On Vacation until Saturday
Mr 2 You

:nope:

Warriors work just as well as Spears. The AI just looks at what units you have, not at the quality.

Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere a long ago that the AI looks at your overall "military strenght", not the number of your units. I also remember reading that the attack strenght of your troops weighs more than the defense strenght, I believe it was 50% more. This would make the quality of your troops more important than the numbers.

E.g. a sword - attack strength 3, defense strength 2. Its "combined strength" (or whatever you want to call it) would be 150% * 3 + 100% * 2 = 6.5 for a 30 shield unit. That's much more than 3 warriors would have although they cost the same amount of shields.

If this is true it would mean quality before quantity if your goal is to deter the AI from attacking you.

If the forest has multiple candidate cities, it will search in the order (from the forest) NE, E, SE...N, NNE, NENE...NNW.

Here's a gif I found somewhere on these forums a couple of years ago and saved on my hard drive. It might be easier to understand from a picture.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9406/2smallou8.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I have one question which isn't really related to this game but since this is a training game it might be of use for everybody. There are some very knowledgeable people posting here :)

When bombarding a square with improvements (road and/or irrigation/mine) and no enemy troops, what defines the odds of hitting the target and pillaging the improvement? Is this related to the era (e.g. catapults would hit at a good rate during the ancient age and mediocre rate at medieval age), the overall military strength of the civs or what?

This has been bugging me for a long time :confused:

According to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=39577), improvements have a defense value which doesn't seem to be exactly determined, but certainly somewhere between 10 and 20 (16, probably). I wonder if terrain bonuses matter and whether it might vary between improvements, so maybe I'll test that and get a better value for the defense value. AFAIK the only thing thing changed from that thread to C3C is what units choose to attack (e.g. artillery units will go for units before citizens; before it could be units, citizens, or buildings).

deleted. x-post with an expert.

@ Salarakas & Ansar -- I have repeatedly read that offensive units count for more in the AI's assessment of your military strength than defensive units. I've never seen numbers put to it the way Sal did, though.

Also, Sal, thanks for the pic. I've seen this explained a couple of times, and I understand the theory, but the pic is very helpful.