Dear Saggioun the Wise & all Innoviates,

Greetings from the golden halls of Epsilon Eridani! The Leader of
Epsilon Team sends you his warm regards.

Our humble scout, "Dark Puma" has caught sight of your Mighty Warrior,
Discoverer ... we are very pleased to meet you, and look forward to
mutual cooperation with your glorious people.

We are a naturally peaceful people, and if you'll agree, we believe
there is much we can learn and trade together. We see that we have no
immediate opportunities for trade, but if you're interested, we'd like
to offer you the chance to catch up in technology by purchasing some
technology from us at a steep discount.

But we don't want to jump the gun too much! What are your interests in
a relationship with Epsilon? We stand ready to sign a peace deal if
you'd like to start there?

We eagerly await your reply.

Sincerely Yours,
Foreign Minister General_W
Epsilon Team!

P.S. Please let me know if there is someone you'd like me to PM
directly, of if your team e-mail is best. Thanks!


And the message I sent along with the save.
Greetings Team Epsilon
I must say that it was a pleasure to finally meet your team.
We are always interested in new technologies, and co-operation with other civilizations, so our foreign ministry will most likely contact you soon.
Dutchfire

They are pretty much ahead of us.

I see they have a well developed foreign ministry... I'll respond to them later tonight. I guess we will start out friendly to get whatever info?

Yeah, we can't hurt them now anyway, so stay nice as long as possible, until we're ready (together with Aloha and Piffle) to destroy them totally. With the lead they've got already, all we can do is try to destroy them together.
I suggest we make a non-aggresion deal with them for the moment though. Try to get as much out of them as possible.

The message I sent Epsilon:Dear Epsilon,

I am the Foreign Minister of the Team Innovia, and on behalf of all Innovians I greet you and all Epsilonians in friendship.

We've heard much about your nation. Some decades ago a man came with something he called a "television" and showed us a "broadcoast" of what we now recognize as your nation. ;)

We Innovians are a peaceful people and have no wish of any bloodshed, so naturally we agree to your peace proposal. Not only that, but we also look forward to possible trades with you. We are willing to hear and discuss any proposals you might have.

As our name implies we are very interested in this aspect of life that's called innovation. We also see that you have done well in this area and your offer of selling some of that knowledge to us is most welcome.
To be more specific, we are interested in hearing what you would want in return for Currency?

We have a lot of possibilities to discuss and maybe it would be best if we could arrange a chat. Would that be possible? I'm in GMT +1.

Best regards,
Theoden,
Foreign Minister of Innovia

PS. You have probably guessed it since I'm responding via PM, but PM will be the best way to contact me as I will see a message sooner that way. :)



And they've now responded:
Dear Theoden & All Innovators,

Thank you for your warm letter – it was very well received by The Leader, may he live forever. He has pledged his word to peace with your people.

Now to the matter of trading knowledge! We must confess, our dear Leader is a bit reluctant to let go of Currency so soon – but in the interest of building a strong relationship, we have devised a couple scenarios that we hope you will find acceptable.

Currency Trade A)
We send you currency right away on our next turn. You only pay 70% of the beaker cost in gold!
Currency = 400:science: = 280:gold: Innovia price. – payable in 14gpt for 20 turns.


Currency Trade B)
We send you currency half-way though your payment program. You only pay 60% of the beaker cost in gold!
Currency = 400:science: = 240:gold: Innovia price. – payable in 12gpt for 20 turns. Currency transfers after 10th gold payment is received


We hope one of those is acceptable – if not, we’d be happy to hear your counter proposal.

Also – if we could interest you in some of our other technologies… The Leader is prepared to make you a very special offer on Monotheism(100 :science: ) for just 40 gold. (payable over 10 to 15 turns) or even Iron Working(200:science: ) for just 80 gold (payable over 10 to 20 turns) – either one we’d be happy to transfer right now, and let you pay along with your payment for currency –or pay before you pay for currency. Whatever you’d like to do.

Any or all of this interest you?

Sadly, I’m at -8 gmt, so it may be hard for us to catch up over IM – you can get all my different address from my CivFantatics profile. Maybe we’ll get lucky!

In the meantime, PM works well for me also.

Looking forward to hearing back from you and arranging some mutually profitable deals!

Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of The Leader
Epsilon Team!
Seems like they are running a tech broker agency. :p

Their offer sounds reasonable, but we'd have to lower the science rate to do it so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

If we are going to take it, could someone calculate which deal is best for us taking into account the extra commerce we'll get by acquiring currency earlier?

Those are good prices but we simply can not do it. If we buy technology from them we will never catch up. The only way to close the gap is to trade with the other teams.

I agree, paying cash for techs is not a good idea, especially GPT terms.

Perhaps we could work something out with the other teams, Aloha and Piffle and perhaps even Loco.
280 bucks/4=70 gold, still a lot.
Certainly counting the library bonus and the discount because they know it, that makes about 30% too I guess.

Chat with General W (Epsilon):
Opgiv aldrig din adgangskode eller dit kreditkortnummer i en samtale via onlinemeddelelser.

Mikkel siger:
Hi Josh/General W, do you have time to talk?
Josh siger:
yeah - I am... on the phone though - can you give me 5?
Mikkel siger:
sure
Josh siger:
ok - Goodevening to you!
Mikkel siger:
good afternoon to you
Josh siger:
I hope you're feeling better today?
Mikkel siger:
yes, I felt better during the day and a few headache pills did the job
Josh siger:
lol - glad to hear it
Josh siger:
so - what's the update from the land of Innovia?
Mikkel siger:
well, we happened to have layn a few bricks which were supposed to be a big library but we got a hnadul of coins instead
Josh siger:
lol - oh man!
Josh siger:
I hope you weren't too far along?
Mikkel siger:
not at all, your industrious trait really took the lead there
Josh siger:
yeah - certainly helps
Mikkel siger:
I guess you are planning a mass wonder strategy?
Josh siger:
lol - well, we've found that in general the wonders in Civ4 aren't as exciting as in Civ3.
Josh siger:
but certainly can help. obviously
Mikkel siger:
well, thats right theres nothing like civ3's leo's or pyramids
Josh siger:
exactly
Josh siger:
so - we've noticed that you've really become the kings of trading!
Mikkel siger:
yeah, I think we were the first to aplhabet
Mikkel siger:
and our name implies that we are fond of techs
Josh siger:
- indeed! ... after this last turn, I think the only technology we're up on you is Currency now.
Josh siger:
Are you still interested in that, or you working another angle?
Mikkel siger:
you tech lead was prety big actually
Josh siger:
(yeah - Oracle helped with that... but all things are temporary... obviously!)
Mikkel siger:
there didn't seem to be anywhere near a majority positive towards it so probably not
Josh siger:
Any sense of why not?
Mikkel siger:
we'd rather crack up the science rate than spend gold to buy techs
Mikkel siger:
i think that was the reason
Josh siger:
hmmm. ok. I know you're not the whole team... but if the gold price is low enough, it's more cost effective than researching it yourself, yes?
Mikkel siger:
speaking for myself... yes, if the gold discount outweighs the fact that we have more science multiplier buildings then it would be more cost effective for us
Josh siger:
We're willing to haggle on the price of Currency, if you think that would help... you can't possibly have science multiplers above 30-40% can you?
Mikkel siger:
however there's also the general rule of not funding the leaders (no pun intended) research more than neccesary no matter how friendly they are
Josh siger:
lol - fair enough
Mikkel siger:
But of course if the price is low enough they might be convinced
Josh siger:
(on phone again...)
Mikkel siger:
are you still alive?
Josh siger:
hey -
Josh siger:
sorry - I got off the phone and you were gone
Mikkel siger:
that's just my crappy internet connection in function
Mikkel siger:
it logs me off once in a while
Josh siger:
ah - I see. no worries
Josh siger:
I was just asking you ... what kind of low price are we talking about here?

Mikkel siger:
probably something like 40% of the price with payments coming over five turns... but I don't expect you to accept that
Josh siger:
well...
Josh siger:
that's not completly undoable.
Josh siger:
concern on our end would be that we sell it so cheap, then you turn around to your trading partners and make a mint.
Josh siger:
(pun intented )
Mikkel siger:
that's certainly a valid concern
Mikkel siger:
but I think we'd be willing to agree to a trading restriction
Mikkel siger:
so that we wont sell it on
Josh siger:
ok - then it's possible we could have a deal
Josh siger:
40% of beaker price... how long do you think your team would go for a trading moratorium on Currency?
Mikkel siger:
moratorium? (whats that)
Josh siger:
ah... a restriction. (too fancy for my own good)
Josh siger:
ie - you won't trade or sell Currency to anyone else for X number of turns
Mikkel siger:
pretty long I guess... 40 turns?
Josh siger:
yeah - that would totally do it. Think your team would agree to that?
Mikkel siger:
certainly not everyone but I think there might be a majority, at least I would take it if I was in total charge
Josh siger:
ok - I've been runing the Foriegn Ministry a bit like a dictator lately... ... but baring some last minute democracy... I can mostly assure you our team would agree to that deal
Mikkel siger:
nah, I'm more like the UN vs the world when it comes to actual influence
Josh siger:
LOL - you're in bad shape then
Josh siger:
would you like a formal letter proposing this deal?
Mikkel siger:
no, it's just called democracy
Mikkel siger:
well, I can propose it to the team and if they agree we'll make the formal agreement
Josh siger:
ok. Sounds good to me.
Josh siger:
40% of Currency would be just 160 gold
Josh siger:
LOL - ouch
Mikkel siger:
but you don't lose anything
Mikkel siger:
and if you sell it everyone for that price you've earned 160% of its cost
Josh siger:
but if you're not going to be trading it elsewhere, I still think our team would go for it - just to keep trading with our Friends
Mikkel siger:
yeah, when you're #1 in score making friends is very important I reckon
Josh siger:
yeah - we're willing to make some crazy deals if it (hopefully) buys us some good will
Josh siger:
you WILL love us after this, yes?
Josh siger:

Mikkel siger:
personally I will
Josh siger:
lol - I'll take that
Mikkel siger:
but I could put it up for a team vote...
Mikkel siger:

Mikkel siger:
1:love 'em 2: hate 'em 3: abstain
Josh siger:
lol ...er... I'm not totally sure I'd want to see the outcome of that vote!
Josh siger:
how about you just get them to agree to steal our lunch money on currency, and we'll just assume it's because you love us?
Mikkel siger:
that's the best arrangement for everybody I think
Josh siger:
ok. I think we could have a deal here. Just let me know. We can transfer currency as soon as we have an agreed deal.
Mikkel siger:
I will propose it as soon as we're finished talking
Josh siger:
great. I'll post this chat in our forum so people will start getting ready to yell at me if necessary
Josh siger:
It's been a pleasure talking - thanks for saying hi. Hope I didn't keep you up too late.
Mikkel siger:
it's 1am but it's saturday tomorrow so no problem. and a pleasure to talk you
Josh siger:
IM me anytime. or PM works fine also. Hope you sleep well, and we'll talk more soon!
Mikkel siger:
thank you. and have a good workday (whatever is left of it, and if you are actually working)
Josh siger:
(Home sick... so it was a good time for me - you broke the boredom)
Mikkel siger:
thatso you're also sick? lol. but I'm glad I broke your boredom


In short, I've managed to get a very good offer of buying currency that I think we should accept:
We pay 40% of the price (160g) over 5 turns (we can afford that right?)
We won't trade it to any third part within 40 turns

I know the money will help Epsilon a bit but this offer is just too good...

I have not had time to read the chat yet, but not only do I not want to buy technology from Epsilon, the fact that we cant trade it to other teams for more techs significantly reduces its value.

Ok, so now I've looked over the chat. Kudos to Theo, your really made for diplomacy, but I still oppose buying techs.

My thinking is that we can do the research ourselves then trade with some other team and we've just doubled our effort, so a 50% discount might just compensates for the fact that we can't trade. But Currency is already 6% cheaper just because Epsilon already has it. So buying it at 40% amounts to about a 4% discount according to me.

Concider also that most of our beakers are produced in Wheelville which gets +25% from the Library, the Monastary boosts beakers in Ploughland by 10% and our scientists also give us beakers. Our gold gets no bonuses though so it seems to me that gold is more valuable than beakers right now.

I'd tell them that Innovians don't have to pay for it.

I also don't like it. And 40 turns is a ridiculously long time, I would not go any longer than 20 (and even that's pushing it). Personally I'm not keen at all on funding the tech leader's research, it's the last thing a sensible strategist does. Also, consider that if they're willing to trade with us, then they'll be willing to trade with someone else. If they arrange a simultaneous trade-out of a tech to other parties, then they make a bundle at everyone else's expense.

Finally, there's the fact that they are misleading by way of beaker costs. Almost every tech is NOT worth the amount of beakers it says, for the reason of multipliers. For each prerequisite (arrow leading to it) that you have satisfied, an additional 20% bonus to tech rate is applied to the tech you are researching. So for instance, in the case of Currency, as it has one prerequisite it does NOT take 400 beakers of research to complete; it takes 334 beakers. Techs with even more prerequisites are worth even less; for instance, Writing (with the prerequisites of Priesthood, Animal Husbandry, and Pottery all completed) will only require 62.5% of the beakers to research as it states as its 'cost'.

I'm certain that Epsilon are aware of this, and are trying to bank in on other teams' possible lack of knowledge of it. Either way, I vote absolutely for one thing: we do not trade with Epsilon while they hold the tech lead, and especially not in gold-for-tech deals.

EDIT: Good point about the additional multiplier for them already having it, 1889... I'd forgotten about that as well. Realistically, Currency will take us about 300 beakers to research ourselves, maybe less. Epsilon's deals are nowhere near as sweet as they are sugar-coating them to sound like.

Good reasoning there. I was aware of the research bonuses but I didn't know they were that high.

I don't think General_W knew it either though, so telling him might convince him of an even lower price. Theoretically what would we settle for? Something like paying 20% of the 'cost' and not being able to trade it for the next 10 turns? Or perhaps even lower; I'd just like to make a counteroffer to keep relations open so we're able to get information from them.

They may be offended if our conter-offer is too good, but if we make a reasonable counter-offer that they accept then it would be hard for us to turn it down. How about you just tell them that your sorry but your team mates were too thick and refused to listen to reason. Its like good cop bad cop and I think it will come in very handy.

They may be offended if our conter-offer is too good, but if we make a reasonable counter-offer that they accept then it would be hard for us to turn it down. How about you just tell them that your sorry but your team mates were too thick and refused to listen to reason. Its like good cop bad cop and I think it will come in very handy.
I'll try that, playing the good foreign minister who is constantly overruled by his teammates. :p I think it'll work since I already presented myself to him as not having the power to do trades without the peoples consent.

This was in our box when I went to get the save. Still considering what to do with Feudalism, but probably not this.

Greetings to our friends at Innovia!

Congratulations on your recent discovery of Feudalism. Truly, the
peasants must be kept in line, and you are setting a most excellent
example for the entire world!

Would you be interested in trading your knowledge for some of our research?

Option #1) You give Feudalism (700:science: ) and we'll give you Drama
(300:science: ) and Theology (500:science: )

Option #2) You give Feudalism (700:science: ) and we'll give you
Philosophy (800:science: )

What do you say?
We eagerly await your reply.

Foreign Minister General W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

I don't think the deal is that bad. We would be able to sell philosophy to Aloha for Theology and Drama afterwards. Off course we'd have to clear that with aloha first...

Option #1 sucks, Theology and Drama are both dead end techs.
Option #2, Do we really need Philosophy? Pacifism isn't great, we don't have the production to get Angkor Wat and Taoism has been founded. All it does is lead to Nationalism, a very expensive tech that we won't be getting anyway.

We can get those techs from Piffle also.

Monotheism (171) and Feudalism (1001) for Philosophy (1144)

Maybe Music (858) for Paper (858)

Then maybe Philosophy to Aloha for Drama and Theology as you say.

(This post is repeated in the Piffle thread)

Wow, this stuff is intense :P If my say counts for anything, I vote no to epsilon! In real life I am taking a very enlightening economics course and when it come to progress and benefit, trading with epsilon is a great idea. But since this is not about progress and is instead about relative competition, this trade is worse for us than we gain (I think, I have no numbers :P ) Maybe we should invest more in our long term economy with some fresh cottages!

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier Dutch. Those are good points but I do want Theology when we build units for the war.

Theology is good for Theocracy. Philosophy is good for leading to Liberalism and Nationalism (Taj Mahal). But in our circumstances, I think that those options are not worth Feudalism.

By the way, as an aside, the Taj Mahal might be a nice wonder to prepare for later, especially since we have marble (right?).

I just had a conversation with General_W from epsilon.
Josh says:
Hey Theoden - General_W from Civfanatics here - you got a second? (If you're busy - no big deal! just ignore me )
Mikkel says:
yes, I'm here and have time to talk...
Josh says:
Hey - great. Hope life is treating you well?
Mikkel says:
I'd say it does.
Josh says:
Glad to hear it! - I just wanted to quickly touch bases with you over our recent letter about Feudalism for Philosophy
Mikkel says:
yes, I'll just check the team forum for the discussion
Josh says:
Ok - thank you sir!
Mikkel says:
it seems the team is a bit negative about trading with you
Mikkel says:
even though the beaker difference favours us
Josh says:
I see. I feared as much. Is it because we're ahead of you by a few techs?
Mikkel says:
yes, and just the fact that our teams are "competing" for techs
Mikkel says:
and that we can get the techs elsewhere
Josh says:
ok. I see. I appreciate the heads-up.
Josh says:
just so I know...
Josh says:
if we were to sweeten the offer - would it make any difference? Or is Epsilon just on the enemy list for the time being?
Mikkel says:
well, I can certainly propose it. If you have the cheapest tech offers on the market i don't find it impossible
Josh says:
ok - if I'm asking for too much info, just say so... but it'd help if you could give me some idea of how much better than 100 beakers in your favor the offer would have to be?
Mikkel says:
but you leader position has been weakened and if you drop a little more behind i'm sure your trade posiblities would be better
Josh says:
lol - well, I was just going to make the point, that your buddies over at Aloha seem to be pulling ahead of you, gaining on us, and apparntly not sharing the wealth so much with you...
Mikkel says:
It's hard to say without just copying our discussion thread here, but I suppose something like 200 beakers cheaper might do it
Mikkel says:
although I know that deal would seem bad for you
Josh says:
hmmmm.
Josh says:
yeah. but not imposible. We'd really rather make friends than enemies.
Mikkel says:
bur Aloha isn't so far ahead in points, and we'll catch up on tem eventually hopefully
Mikkel says:
i understand that reasoning... clearly you are the prime target so you need friends
Josh says:
would you value gold over beakers? like 40 gold along with the 100 beaker advantage of philosophy? or does it need to be closer to 200 beakers in advantage?
Mikkel says:
considering the bonus we get for research (because you know the tech and we know prerequisites etc.) gold is worth more
Mikkel says:
so perhaps 100 gold?
Mikkel says:
yes, I know im pushing it now...
Josh says:
LOL
Josh says:
yeah - I don't see anyway we're agreeing to 100 beaker and 100 gold your way for Feudalism
Josh says:
Do you already have a Drama deal with Aloha?
Josh says:
we might be willing to do Drama and Philosophy for Feudalism... that's 400 beakers in your favor...
Mikkel says:
I don't think so, not any tech dealsat the moment
Mikkel says:
That sounds very tempting
Mikkel says:
I'll certainly pass that offer on to the team
Mikkel says:
Well, as usual I'm the only on the team who's enthusiastic about trading with you, but hope the others can be convinced...
Josh says:
ok. I haven't passed that by my team yet... but our constitution gives me quite a bit of power over diplomacy for Epsilon.
Josh says:
yeah... I'd ask you just to pass on to your team my comment that we may be the leader, but if you can take us for hundereds of beakers every time... it's only good for you.
Mikkel says:
you have a constitution? with lots of redundant beraucracy?
Josh says:
lol - our Constitution is pretty vast - but I think we avoid being overly beuracratic... but other may disagree - lol
Mikkel says:
well, some of our economic experts seem to have figured that it would actually benefit you unless the deal is hugely in our favour
Josh says:
Really? I understand that on the GPT deals... which is why we haven't offered you any more of those
Mikkel says:
well, i think Piffle's organisation would be shocking for you?
Josh says:
If it's much like KISS - then yeah... that's be a shocker for me to try to deal with
Mikkel says:
that wasn't because of the GPT, just because of the total benefits it would give to the different parties including trading the techs on etc.
Josh says:
Sure. But that works both ways. It's not a good analysis if you only look at our side. We pretty much expect you to profit a second time on Philosophy in trades to Aloha or Loco.
Josh says:
Ditto for Drama.
Josh says:
you have an easier time trading - as this conversation has proved, I would think.
Mikkel says:
indeed we have
Josh says:
obviously I'm biased, but I'd go so far as to say the secondary trade market drives up the value of any trade you make with us even MORE than the initial value in your favor.
Mikkel says:
but we only agree to deals if it's fair from our perspective...
Josh says:
of course.
Mikkel says:
our "think-tanks" seem to think you gain most form the secondary trade market
Josh says:
Do they think other teams like dealing with the leader more than you?
Mikkel says:
but think of it this way.. theoretically if you the first to every tech and sold it for just 25% of the beakers, then you'd get the full cost back... which is why we and maybe other teams are refusing to buy techs for even 40% of the value
Mikkel says:
but I actually can't say much about the other teams willingness to trade... but shouldn't you know that yourself?
Josh says:
Yeah – I suppose that'd be true. But that's an enormous "IF" that I can tell you is certainly NOT true. And even in that analysis – it's still only ½ of the picture. Any team we trade with is getting ahead in beakers also… at the very least blunting our gain in terms of a lead.
Josh says:
I see what you're saying – but it's really unfair to only look at 1 side of the picture, and discount the gain that the other trading partner is getting.
Josh says:
That's like saying I rob the grocer every time I go to the supermarket because he doesn't get any food from me. You're ignoring the fact that I paid cash for that food!
Mikkel says:
of course, but the nature of this game (only one winner) means that one team with just 50% more power than any other team would likely win
Mikkel says:
but of course i see your point
Josh says:
Agreed – and hence our willingness to make really good deals.
Josh says:
thanks... Do offer that Drama and Philo deal to your team (400 in your favor... 200 more than you asked! You're a killer negotiator )
Mikkel says:
so even though other teams gain power from the trades you are effectively spreading that power out... divide and conquer... and you play it well
Mikkel says:
yes, ill offer the deal
Josh says:
And as my parting shot at our competition, I don't know if you watch these things, but in addition to closing the tech gap to just about 2-3 techs, Aloha passed us significantly in GDP last turn.
Mikkel says:
(I am a tough nogotiater indeed, you won't get an easy dela here)
Mikkel says:
yes, you are losing your lead a bit which will probably improve relations
Josh says:
I'll grant you that you last statement is accurate. We can benefit by spreading the power out. But I'd still argue it's not THAT dramatic – and especially not dramatic when you can also trade in the secondary market, and even further less dramatic we you consider that each team is so reluctant to deal with us… giving us worse deals on each trade than you give the other teams.
Josh says:
*refering to the divide and conquer*
Mikkel says:
you are absolutely right. it comes down to the question of proportions - how much of a discount you have to trade at. and if teams weren't reluctant you'd be running away now. but the reluctancy is now at a high enough level that you won't run away with the game
Mikkel says:
so you'll have to accept making bad deals and try to benefit from it anyway
Josh says:
yes. So I'd just ask for a little understanding - and a less extreme position on what's a fair trade. Wouldn't be earning my salary if I didn't try to bring the fences down between our people a little bit
Mikkel says:
well, remember that I've always mentioned that I don't expect you to accept our deals
Josh says:
Oh yes - I appreciate your honesty - you're just doing your job
Mikkel says:
and I certainly understand... if I were in your situation I probably wouldn't accept the same deals
Mikkel says:
I'd negotiate hard and long
Mikkel says:
and everything I say is based on the teams opinion. i don't have the same powers as you
Josh says:
lol - well. I'll be posting this chat in our forum. See if I can get team support for the Drama/Philo for Feudalism deal.
Josh says:
I have power... but we also have elections
Mikkel says:
elections.. bah we don't need those
Mikkel says:
I am the foreign minister unless there is a revolution
Josh says:
I'm beginning to get the picture... no constitution.... no elections.... what kind of police state you running over there at Innovia? LOL
Mikkel says:
it's no police state damnit.. lol.. more of a good example of a working anachistic-ish direct democracy
Mikkel says:
anyone is free to grab the save and play for instance
Josh says:
surrrrre. is that what they're calling it these says?
Josh says:
*these days
Josh says:
oh - that's kind of cool - no problems with strategic continuity that way?
Mikkel says:
well, we don't have corruption.. elected politicians are always corrupt
Josh says:
Hey now!
Mikkel says:
well it's mostly one person who grabs it most of the time so we have a sort of informal president
Mikkel says:
don't say that you've never accidentally found some governmet money in your own pocket
Josh says:
All of it was well deserved, and fully legal I can assure you!
Josh says:
and there's no proof of that besides
Mikkel says:
*saves negotiation and posts it publicly*
Josh says:
ok sir - it's really been great talking to you - I enjoy it... even as you try to rob me blind.
Josh says:
*ouch!*
Mikkel says:
I have your confessoin here..lol
Josh says:
please get back to me on what your team says about the deal. IM or e-mail or PM is fine. I stay on top of all of it.
Mikkel says:
I will
Mikkel says:
And have a good day
Josh says:
good deal. I've got to get back to work here.... you too! have a great (night?)
Mikkel says:
yes, thank you I'll be going to bed now while you work
Josh says:
lol - time zone differences always strike me as humorous for some reason. Sleep well, and thanks for staying up to chat.
Mikkel says:
no problem.

Summary: After hard and long negotiations I managed to make them offer philosophy AND drama for feudalism. That's 1200 beakers for 700 beakers if I'm not mistaken. I think this would be worth considering.

Wow Theo your tough. I'm beginning to see your point that catagorically locking Epsilon out isn't such a good strategy,It will be a good play for us to warm up to them a bit.

This deal will really stink if Piffle accepts what we already offered them so what do we do about that?

Otherwize I'd go for it. I see also these techs will be available for both teams to trade so we may need to work out some deals ahead of time. Still we have to see if they approve it though. I'd be suprised if they accept it.

Interesting. This new deal of Philosophy and Drama for Feudalism sounds much better. If it's still possible, I say we go for it. :)

So depending on what Piffle responds, there wouldn't be heavy opposition to accepting the offer?

In fact I'd prefer the Epsilon deal.

Great news. The deal got pretty much accepted in a chat I just had with General_W:
Mikkel says:
Hi, General_W Do you have time to talk?
Josh says:
sure - I may be a bit spotty - couple things in the air - but go ahead
Mikkel says:
ok, basically my team is positive about the deal we discussed the other day and willing to accept it
Josh says:
ok - that's good news!
Mikkel says:
how is epsilons opinion?
Josh says:
well - not super enthusiastic... as we're giving away a lot, of course. But I didn't get a tidal wave of negative. Our president has yet to officially weigh in, but it looks likely to go through
Josh says:
you want to make the offer on your turn?
Mikkel says:
that would be fine with us
Josh says:
ok - I'll notify the team that we're going ahead with the deal. Unless confirmation that it's going to happen brings down the wrath on me... we should be set
Mikkel says:
thats great!
Josh says:
Thanks for getting back to me - I was starting to think the deal was dead.
Mikkel says:
no not at all. we just had some.... complications
Josh says:
oh - business call - gotta go. If I'm not off the phone before you leave - have a great night.
Josh says:
don't suppose you can say what kind of complications? (so I can try to avoid them in the future?)
Mikkel says:
nothing you can avoid.. complicatoins with possible deals from other teams at the same time... and now ive already said too much
Josh says:
ok - fair enough
Josh says:
thanks again
Mikkel says:
no problem. good night and thanks for the deal

I said that we will offer the deal next turn.

I'll make sure it gets sent. I don't think we have a trade restriction on these techs so maybe we should make som other offers while feudalism is hot. I wont get to it for another 4-5 hours.

Dear Innovia,
I know you're not going to like this much, but I regret to tell you
that our team has voted overwhelmingly not to extended our Open
Borders deal for another 10 turns.

For what it's worth, I wanted to extended the deal one more time to
make things a bit more equal in terms of territory explored… but 'the
people' have spoken.

We're open to renegotiation of some kind of an OB deal (maybe one that
doesn't allow any units to cross?) if you have any interest in that.

To the Health and Wealth of both our peoples,
- General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

Now what? Tell Loco about the Epsilonian troop build-up?

We could ask for some finacial compensation to make up for the fact that we didn't get much use out of the OB, then we can renew the OB without alowing troops to enter each others borders.

Keep in mind that they have caravels that can sail into our territory regardless so this type of OB could prevent that, but don't tell them.

I don't think I'd tell loco about the troop build up. I don't think it can do much good and it may back fire on us.

The Chat of Great Relief and Prosperous Deals, pt. 1:
Mikkel siger:
Hi, GeneralW
Josh siger:
Hey Theoden!
Josh siger:
How's life?
Mikkel siger:
ah, a deep question... without getting into endless detail i will just say it's damn good
Josh siger:
LOL a fine answer
Mikkel siger:
and how about you? how's the newborn?
Josh siger:
She's doing great. Keeping her parents up at night... but at least she's cute
Mikkel siger:
lol.. that's good to hear
Josh siger:
Hey - I think I just sent a letter not too long about about the Silks/Whales deal. Is that still on the table?
Mikkel siger:
yes, I saw your letter... the offer is still on the table
Josh siger:
ok. good deal
Mikkel siger:
our president just the offer in-game before I could contact you
Mikkel siger:
I know, we're aoffering a health resource for a happy, so enjoy our generousity
Josh siger:
no problem... but the way our team constitution is, the President can't just accept those deals.
Josh siger:
uhmm... I think Silk is a happy resource
Josh siger:
not to look down on your generosity!
Josh siger:

Mikkel siger:
oh, right I completely messed that one up
Mikkel siger:
anyway, I think it's a good deal for us both
Josh siger:
I agree. There was no argument from the team at all
Mikkel siger:
I wonder... what was you reasoning for closing the borders? switching to mercantilism soon?
Josh siger:
No - I still feel kinda bad about that. Our team has just taken a real hardline stance on trying to keep our map secure.
Josh siger:
I think we sent a letter offering a no-units OB deal... but didn't hear back (we assumed you were just justifiably annoyed)
Mikkel siger:
I don't know if we'll agree with that... but personally I'd say you gotta take the good with the bad in an OB-deal... just out of curiosity though, would a no-unit agreement include your otherwise intruder-capable caravels?
Josh siger:
That could certainly be negotiated. Now that CircumNav is done, we'd probably agree to that.
Mikkel siger:
which reminds me... as you'll notice if you've opened up the latest save we have switched to mercantilism, so there is little reason to open the borders as we'll just give you trade and nothing in return
Josh siger:
oh yeah... :blush: - I did notice that
Josh siger:
guess it's a moot point now! lol
Josh siger:
If you decide to take advantage of the spiritual trait and switch to something more open, let us know, and we can probably look at a no-units no-caravels OB deal at that point.
Mikkel siger:
I'll remember that
Josh siger:
We noticed you passed us in the power graph! ! :wow: I hope Epsilon isn't the target of hordes of angry camel archers?
Mikkel siger:
*looks out window* I don't know what you're talking about... and that's definitely not a horde of camels in the background
Josh siger:
lol
Josh siger:
ok - coy answer. I can cope with that, I guess.
Mikkel siger:
Seriously, we're happy to be number one in power
Mikkel siger:
it makes villain nations think twice before attacking
Josh siger:
yeah - believe me, as long time score leader, we understand paranoia.
Mikkel siger:
regarding power and the current situation i have an offer... since you feel bad about cancelling the OB, there has been a desire within my team to reestablish our friendship by making a non-aggression pact for a number of turns
Mikkel siger:
this could also help with the paranoia that both of us feels...
Josh siger:
yeah - I like the sound of that. (and this is going to sound suspicious) but I've got an early business lunch I've got to go to - can we pick this up when I get bck?
Josh siger:
before I go, let me say that I think we can totally draft something that will be agreeable.
Mikkel siger:
sure
Mikkel siger:
i may be eating dinner when you come back though, but some point later tonight...
Josh siger:
yeah - no problem. If I miss you, I'll just go ahead and start drafting a letter to send in our forums anyway.
Mikkel siger:
sounds good
Josh siger:
before I run - did you have a turn number in mind?
Mikkel siger:
to be honest, i don't
Josh siger:
ok - not a problem. We'll cook something up.
Josh siger:
Thanks for saying hi. Talk to you more at some point I'm sure! Enjoy dinner.
Mikkel siger:
see you
The Chat of Great Relief and Prosperous Deals, pt. 2 (not much of interest, just diplomatic niceties):
Mikkel siger:
Hi again, I'm back
Josh siger:
hey - dinner was good I trust?
Mikkel siger:
Again, a deep question... so I'll just say very delicious.
Josh siger:
lol - never realized I was such a deep person
Josh siger:
Well - I posted our chat for discussion, and it's already starting.
Mikkel siger:
i posted it too, but no discussion so far
Josh siger:
Did you have anything else you wanted to add?
Josh siger:
(already starting = 1 post)
Mikkel siger:
no, I don't think there was anything else at the moment
Josh siger:
Ok. no problem. Once the team starts to get a concensus, I'll let you know what sakes loose.
Mikkel siger:
what are the turn numbers you have thought about, if any? realisitically, what would you agree to?
Josh siger:
well, probably not too long. Based on the one comment so far, we don't think a naval invasion by either of us is realistic for quite a while, and don't really want to get soo nailed down that we can't respond to potential international developments.
Mikkel siger:
astronomy is right around the corner though
Josh siger:
IE - if one of us developed an ally, and the other attacked them.
Mikkel siger:
yeah, I don't think a one-on-one war between us is in anyone's interest except our enemies
Josh siger:
exactly
Josh siger:
We'll see what the rest of the team says, but we may just end up going with a mutual understanding that invading eachother is really counter-productive for both of us.
Josh siger:
I mean, I hope it doesn't come to blows, both our nations are prospering from peace... but sometimes a theat of violence helps keep the peace.
Josh siger:
Bussiness confrence call - gotta run here. sorry. I'll keep you posted.
Mikkel siger:
no problem
Mikkel siger:
but I think the idea of the non-aggression pact was to avoid wars even in the case of alliances
Mikkel siger:
I'm sure that no unprovoked war will arise anytime soon

That's really awsome, just curious why you didn't mention 1250 AD though?

I didn't want to stir the pot and reveal that we have been talking with Piffle and received 'too much' information about their deals.

Fair enough.

Sounds quite promising. I'll have to check up on the save at some stage soon, I haven't got into this in a while. :)

Should we contact them again about the non-aggresion treaty?

I contacted General_W and he sent Epsilon's official response: :(
Dear Innovia,

I regret to inform you that the ruling council of Epsilon has voted against signing any kind of non-aggression pact with you.

Your recent military buildup is a matter of grave concern, and we cannot in good faith offer to tie our own hands.

Please understand, we enjoy our peaceful relations with you and sincerely hope they continue.

All the Best,

Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!
So the deal didn't work out...

And the related chat that I finished just now:
Mikkel says:
Hi, General
Josh says:
Hey there all is well I trust?
Mikkel says:
yup, it's weekend = extremely well
Josh says:

Josh says:
still friday morning here. Almost lunchtime
Mikkel says:
and Evangeline is still fine I trust?
Josh says:
yeah - little bit of a runny nose thing. But nothing bad. Humidifer is helping a lot
Josh says:
Hey - I know I owe Innovia a letter. It's actually been written, I just haven't sent it.
Josh says:
let me double check the forum here....
Mikkel says:
yep, that was what I was getting at... the big letter
Josh says:
ok - everyone has approved the final draft (all the real actives anyway) you want it in PM or to Innovia gmail?
Mikkel says:
PM works fine
Josh says:
gotta warn you. It's not what you want to hear, I'm afraid
Mikkel says:
hum... i'll look at it before i comment
Josh says:
yeah.
Josh says:
ok. sent.
Mikkel says:
well, i'm sorry to hear that response, but at least i tried
Josh says:
yeah. I hate being the bearer of sad news.
Mikkel says:
although, if you suspect a military buildup wouldn't it be a good idea to ensure that you aren't the target of it?
Josh says:
lol - no doubt. But I think my team feels ok about it because we've got a decent army and an ocean between us.
Josh says:
This game is reaching the point where the longstanding peace just can't possibly hold much longer, and the team concensus is that we need to be ready to act.
Mikkel says:
sure you do.... and since we offered you a non-aggressoin pact we probably won't attack you right away
Mikkel says:
so you think the first war might come soon?
Josh says:
well - I don't think this game is going to a space race or cultural victory, if that's what you mean! LOL
Mikkel says:
surely not cultural, but why not space?
Mikkel says:
I thought you were heading for space with that economic buildup (or whatever you're doing there overseas)
Josh says:
Yeah, I can't say I'd be disapointed if it went to a space race... and maybe it will. But just from PBEM experiance, if anyone is far enough ahead to think they can do it, they're going to have a world war on their hands.
Josh says:
Human nature I suppose
Mikkel says:
good point, although DaveMcW managed to pull off one such space race victory in the pitboss game despite a world war, and he is on your team IIRC
Josh says:
That's true! Sadly dave is no longer in our official government - but he's still active.
Josh says:
but even in your example... there's still a war going on
Josh says:
Truthfully, I think we're all very supprised and pleased that the peace has lasted this long.
Josh says:
I hope our recent trade of silks gives you some peace of mind that we're not planning an invasion or anything rash.
Mikkel says:
that must be because it benefits everyone strong enough to make a war
Josh says:
(kudos on the silk trades, btw... what's that? 3 resources for 1! very nice)
Mikkel says:
no, I don't think you would invade *us* first... someone else though, i don't know
Mikkel says:
yes, our great surplus of silks have served us well on the global market
Josh says:

Mikkel says:
How big is your official government actually?
Josh says:
5 Main position - President, Domestic Minister, Defense Minister, Foreign Minister, and Department of Nomenclature
Mikkel says:
Nomenclature?
Josh says:
Naming stuff
Mikkel says:
wow, you must have a lot of activtity with 5 official positions
Mikkel says:
ah, i see... we just do the naming things anarchisticly
Josh says:
lol - well, I've been pretty happy with it. I'd say we've got about 7 very actives, and 2-3 semi-actives, and then a few that just pop up every now and then.
Josh says:
How about your actives?
Mikkel says:
3 very actives who manage the day to day stuff, a few who are moderately active and 3-4 people who pop in once a month for a comment
Mikkel says:
but we've just sent messages to all the old members who are no longer active... will hopefully get more people involved
Josh says:
sounds good. I think have a lot of official positions helps keep some people active.
Josh says:
but that's just my opinion... I wrote much of our Constitution. lol
Mikkel says:
yeah, we tried it but it just didn't work out... the only official position is mine as foreign minister & UN rep
Mikkel says:
constitution? what's that?
Josh says:

Josh says:
ours hit the text limit for a single post! LOL
Mikkel says:
So, how much time do you spend on bureaucracy?
Josh says:
Not much really. Mostly it's just who manages which threads, and who is responsible to post updates. Our team stays pretty well informed with multiple people posting updates about what happened on each turn
Josh says:
don't even really need to open the save to stay fully informed.
Josh says:
depends if you consider that bureaucracy or not, I guess.
Josh says:
My foreign updates take quite a bit of my time.
Mikkel says:
In comparison, I guess we're lazy and uninformed then though we do post a lot of screenshots
Josh says:
lol - nah. To each their own.
Mikkel says:
maybe, if we had more active members... but as it is now the current system is most effective
Josh says:
yeah. It's good to be flexible.
Josh says:
Any fun plans for the weekend?
Mikkel says:
nah, just catching up on stuff that needs to be done
Mikkel says:
how about you? I suppose you can't go much out with the newborn an' all?
Josh says:
not too much. But we've got 2 sets of grandparents in town... so lots of ready-made babysitting for when she's a bit older
Josh says:
My wife and I are kind of homebodies anymore now. We've gotten lamer as we've gotten older. LOL
Mikkel says:
lol, hopefully you'll stop getting lamer at some point
Josh says:
I'd better, or I'll be in big trouble!
Josh says:
hey - I gotta run to lunch here. Always a pleasure talking with you. Sorry I didn't have the best news.
Mikkel says:
well, you can't get lucky every time... have a good lunch.
Josh says:
thanks. talk to you later
Mikkel says:
see you

Hmm, which means that they're probably still at least considering the option (not necessarily having decided yet) of attacking us first. You know, take down the biggest and most powerful threat first. We should probably beef up our homeland defence, especially on the coast near them. Do we have Caravels yet? We urgently need them to start scouting the waters. Even though they are no match for Galleons, we can still get a warning ahead of time if they're coming.

Will we be generating a Great Scientist anytime soon? We may want to heavily consider the option of using him to obtain Astronomy, for both defensive and offensive purposes.

We'll have optics in 5 turns, then Chowder can build caravels in 1 turn. The first caravel should be used to protect our invasion fleet, the second can patrol the western ocean.

Next GP is 5 turns away I think, but scientists don't rush Astro. We can try and get a merchant, but don't know if that will be any better.

:confused: Are you sure Scientists don't rush Astronomy? I know for certain that they do in Warlords; not so sure if they changed it though, so it could be different in Civ4 vanilla I guess.

Sorry, yes they do but Printing Press and Education would have to researched first.

Ah, OK. So we would have had to not have Paper in order to be able to do the rush of Astronomy, correct?

Ah, OK. So we would have had to not have Paper in order to be able to do the rush of Astronomy, correct?

Yep
Sad to hear that they don't want lasting peace.

One hell of a bump...

Shall we contact Epsilon with a peace offer, saying we'll vote for them/do what they want?

Finishing Radio and researching Mass Media will take 16 turns at current rates and with the GA. Building the UN will take about 25 or so without an engineer, although we have about a 60% of getting an engineer in Chowderton.

Even if we sink what we can see right now I would expect to be taking serious damage from Epsilon in 3-4 turns. Basically war with Epsilon wrecks our plans. My main concern is the beat Piffle and hold on to second place so I would be fine with capitulating to Epsilon.

We can gift them our artist as a sign of submission perhaps.

draft :


Dear Leader, dear Epsilonians,

Our lookouts have spotted considerable troop build-ups in the seas surrounding our territory. We fear that you didn't bring those soldiers there for a summer cruise. However, we would like to avoid the unnecessary bloodshed on both sides that would be caused by a war.

We acknowledge your superior military and economical position in this game, and we don't plan on threatening your superiority. Although we can't win anymore, we would hate to see our beautiful homeland wasted by war. We are willing to help you win this game faster, as long as our nation isn't hit by your forces. One plan we have is to build the UN and vote for you for a diplomatic victory. Together we have more than 60% of the vote. We would also refrain from any military action against you, or anyone else and we wouldn't build spaceship parts.

We are hoping for a peaceful end to this affair,

Yours sincerely,
Team Innovia


Feel free to amend this letter.
I think we should hurry sending it though, preferably before they play the save.

Dear Leader, dear Epsilonians,

We are in the proces of sending a letter to you, we expect to have it with you today. Perhaps you could hold playing the save until you receive the offer?

Team Innovia

I sent this.

I like your proposed letter, it sounds good to me.

the letter is fine by me. :)

Leter sent and they haven't played the save yet.

erik zegt:
hi
Joshua zegt:
hey there got the note from Innovia... I assume that's what you wanted to talk about?
erik zegt:
indeed
Joshua zegt:
lol - I can't believe you'd think that The Leader, may he live forever, means you any harm!! :mischief:
Joshua zegt:
The Leader welcomes all his children into his embrace.
Joshua zegt:
ok - honestly... we're just starting discussion of your note now.
erik zegt:
we have some Locopotamian refugees who are telling other stories
Joshua zegt:
ROFLOL
Joshua zegt:
oh man. We are kind of the bad-guy team aren't we?
erik zegt:
well, I've got to admit that our treatment of Loco wasn't always optimal either
Joshua zegt:
lol - good point. You're kind of living in a glass house on that one.
erik zegt:
and I believe there's some bad blood between Piffle and Aloha as well
erik zegt:
that's why we believe there has been enough war already
Joshua zegt:
well - one question we're having already is how would we know we're safe from a last minute UN backstab?
erik zegt:
you have >40% of the vote
erik zegt:
I believe you've got 44% of the population right now, and 60% is needed
Joshua zegt:
we do? (haven't looked at the Demo screen in a bit, I'll confess)
Joshua zegt:
ok - well if that true it'll be better... but what if you change your mind and we've given you all a lot of time to prepare?
Joshua zegt:
not that we're planning to attack you, or anything I mean.
erik zegt:
lol
erik zegt:
well, tbh, I guess you'd still be better prepared, and could still beat us easily then
erik zegt:
besides, we're not looking at a really long time here, IIRC only radio and mass media is needed now to get to the UN, and then it has to be built, that could happen quite quickly
Joshua zegt:
ok - well, I'll post this chat.
Joshua zegt:
I guess it doesn't hurt to tell you that I'm open to the idea.
Joshua zegt:
we'll see what The Leader, in his infinite wisdom, has to say about all this.
erik zegt:
great, well, I guess we'll see it in a couple of days
Joshua zegt:
lol - or sooner. Epsilon isn't nearly as democratic as The Council
erik zegt:
I don't think any team in any mtdg is as democratic as the council
Joshua zegt:
lol - probably true.
Joshua zegt:
so - just to confirm... your team is willing to sign a document saying you'd vote for us in the UN election in exchange for a promise of peace?
erik zegt:
yes, we are
Joshua zegt:
ok - on a personal note - I can't say I blame you.
Joshua zegt:
guess we can spare Memphus a bit of a tounge lashing for not hiding those boats better.
erik zegt:
we'd like to finish second in this game, and start a new game
erik zegt:
I don't think he could have hid them, you're not the only ones who are patrolling the seas


Chat with General W of the Council (emoticons showing sarcasm in the first couple of lines are sadly missing)

Fingers crossed then, if they give us a guarantee of peace we can put far more effort into science and with a bit of luck wrap this game up in 15 turns.

Well, General W is usually much more enthusiastic and peace-minded than the rest of his team in chats, so it wouldn't surprise me if the answer is something like "sorry, for reasons we cannot reveal, the majority of the team has chosen to declare war on you". If they do promise peace, I think we can trust them to keep it, so we can always hope they'll accept.

What happened to Port Tropicana?


:cry: We'll have to fight

I take it that is one of our cities :(

Damn, twice this has happened!

No response to my query in the turn report thread so I didn't think anyone would care if I transmitted my proposal to Epsilon.

This is my own idea, Team Innovia has not yet voted on it.

Speaking strictly off the record you do seem like the team most likely to win. So my idea is: rather than whip Piffle every turn until you launch a space ship how about building the UN? That way this game could have a nice clean finish in just a few more turns. If Piffle really can't find anyone to play maybe one of your team members could defect just until we finish this up.

-1889

I'd hate to just throw the towel and give up the game to them, but I don't mind voting for them as UN secretary so count me as a yes-vote for that idea.

Seems fine to me.

Seems fine to me.

:stupid: .