The History of the civilizations in Warhammer(most of them):

http://www.civfanatics.net/warhammer/files/HISTORY_OF_WARHAMMER.doc

(T)= got diplotext

The Civs

Notes:
-Traits will be changed in future releases-suggestions welcome. What kind of traits you'd like to see in Warhammer?

Human Civs:

Amazons

Serpentine

Araby

Leader:Jaffar (T)

Bretonnia

Leader1:King Louen Leoncoeur (T)
Leader2:Gilles le Breton (T)

Cathay

Leader:Emperor Wu (T)

Empire

Leader1:Emperor Magnus (T)
Leader2:Emperor Karl Franz (T)
Leader3:Sigmar(?)

Estalia

Leader:Highpriest Jose'Paul (T)

Ind

Leader:Moghul King Akabar (T)

Kislev

Leader1:Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar (T)
Leader2:Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen (T)

Nippon

Leader:Emperor Takagura (T)

Norse

Leader: Ragnar Lodbrok (T)

The Kurgan

Warlord Vardeck Crom the Conqueror (T)

The Hung

Leung Kwok the blessed (T)

Tilea

Leader1:Lorenzo Lupo (T)
Leader2:Luccini and Lucan (T)
Leader3: Borgio the Besieger

Other races

Chaos Dwarfs

Astragoth

Darkelves

Leader1:Malekith the Witchking (T)
Leader2:Morathi the Hag Queen (T)

Dwarfs

Leader1:Thorgrim Grudgebearer (T)
Leader2:Baragor (T)

Ogre Lords

Leader:Greaseus Goldtooth (T)

The Greenskin Hordes

Leader1:Grimgor Ironhide (T)
Leader2:Azhag the Slaughterer (T)
Leader3:Skarsnik (T)

Highelves

Leader1:Caledor (T)
Leader2:Finubar (T)

Hobgoblin Hegemony

Hobgobla Khan

Tombkings

Leader:Settra the Imperishable (T)

Lhamia

Leader:Neferata


Lizardmen

Leader1:The Venerable Lord Kroak(T)
Leader2:Tehenhauin(still need art) (T)


Beasts of Chaos

Morghur (or another Beastmanshaman) (T)

Skaven

Clan Eshin
Clan Pestilense
Clan Moulder

Sylvanians

Leader1:Vlad von Carstein (T)
Leader2: Mannfred von Carstein

Woodelves

Leader1:Ariel (T)
Leader2:Orion (T)

Reserve me this

First of all, id like to ask if these traits are concrete.
because personally i dont like many of the combinations, and frankly, giving both leaders of a civ th SAME traits needs to change :)
so if you like ill start a new trait thread, or we can discuss it here.

First of all, id like to ask if these traits are concrete.
because personally i dont like many of the combinations, and frankly, giving both leaders of a civ th SAME traits needs to change :)
so if you like ill start a new trait thread, or we can discuss it here.
Those traits listed are still those of version 0.65. I'm waiting for concrete critics;)
This thread has been started to discuss this and hopefully get some communitymembers involved but there's not much happening around here currently...
Maybe I just release a crappy, untested, construction site kind of the mod - bad feedback still is better than no feedback at all.

i re thought the idea of having civ specific traits, and i think it might be better if we represent the civ specific traits as buildings and wonders rather than traits. so here are my ideas:

Aggressive :
Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.
Creative:
+2 culture per city. Double production speed of Theater, Coliseum.
Expansive :
+2 health per city. Double production speed of granary and harbor.
Financial :
+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce. Double production speed of Bank.
Industrious :
Wonder production increased 50 percent. Double production speed of Forge.
Organized :
Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of lighthouse and courthouse.
Philosophical :
Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of University.
Spiritual :
No anarchy.
Double production speed of the Temples.
50% faster production of religious based units
Charismatic :
+1 happiness per city
-25% XP needed for unit promotions
+1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower
Imperialistic :
+100% Great General emergence
50% faster production of settlers
Protective :
Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically
Double production speed of Walls and Castle
Arcane :
+1 Magic commerce per city
Free Dispel I promotion to all magical units
Double production speed of Libraries and Mage Guilds
Elementalist :
Free ‘Elemental Avitar’ promotion to all elemental units. (giving them all the ability to summon lesser elementals)
50% faster Elementalist production time.
Summoner :
Free ‘Permanent Summon’ and ‘Combat I’ to all summoned units.
Agricultural :
+1 food on plots with 2food. 50% faster production of Workers, and farms.
Barbaric :
Civ not at war with barbarians.
Hidden:
Civ boarders are clouded in black fog, hiding it from rival civs.
Vengeful :
All units gain +50% EXP when the Civ is at war.
All cities suffer 50% less war wariness.
Greenskins :
Units suffer from Animosity etc.


Human Civs:

Amazons(not in yet)

Araby

Leader:Jaffar (Elementalist, Philosophical, Spiritual)

Bretonnia

Leader1:King Louen Leoncoeur(Organised, Spiritual, Charismatic)
Leader2:Gilles le Breton(Spiritual, Expansive, Charismatic)

Cathay

Leader:Emperor Wu(Agricultural, Imperialistic, Philisophical)

Empire

Leader1:Emperor Magnus(Imperialistic, Philosophical, Spiritual)
Leader2:Emperor Karl Franz(Imperialistic, Industrious, Financial)

Estalia

Leader:Highpriest Jose'Paul(Spiritual, Seafaring, Organised)

Ind

Leader:Moghul King Akabar(Spiritual, Organized, Agricultural)

Kislev

Leader1:Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar(Aggressive, Expansive, Charismatic)
Leader2:Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen(Elementalist, Arcane, Protective)

Nippon

Leader:Emperor Takagura(Agricultural, Organized, Industrious)

Norse

Leader:Ragnar(Aggressive, Seafaring, Barbaric)

Tilea

Leader1:Marco Columbo(Financial, Seafaring, Expansive)
Leader2:Luccini and Lucan(Spiritual, Industrious, Charismatic)


Ungols(not in yet)

Leader:Toghrul(?) (Aggressive, Expansive, Spiritual)


Other races


Chaos

Leader:Archaon, Lord of the End Times(Hidden, Aggressive, Summoner, Expansive)

Chaos Dwarfs(not in yet)

Darkelves

Leader1:Malekith the Witchking(Seafaring, Arcane, Aggressive)
Leader2:Morathi the Hag Queen(Aggressive, Arcane, Summoner)

Dwarfs

Leader1:Thorgrim Grudgebearer(Industrious, Financial, Vengeful)
Leader2:Baragor(Industrious, Aggressive, Protective)

Ogre Lords(not in yet)

Leader:Greaseus Goldtooth (Financial, Aggressive, Organised)

Orcs

Leader1:Grimgor Ironhide( Expansive, Aggressive, Greenskins)
Leader2:Azhag the Slaughterer(Aggressive, Greenskins, Barbaric)

Gobbos(not in yet)

Leader1:Grom the Paunch (Aggressive, Charismatic, Greenskins)
Leader2:Skarsnik (Arcane, Expansive, Greenskins)

Highelves

Leader1:Aenarion(Protective, Arcane, Creative)
Leader2:Finubar(Creative, Seafaring, Financial)

Hobgoblin Hegemony

Leader:???

Tombkings

Leader1:Settra the Imperishable(Arcane, Organized, Vengeful)
Leader2:Khalida Neferher(Arcane, Vengeful, Aggressive)

Lizardmen(not playable yet)

Leader1:Mazdamundi (Arcane, Creative, Philosophical)
Leader2:Tenehuini (Spiritual, Arcane, Charismatic)

Skaven(not in yet)

Sylvanians

Leader:Vlad von Carstein(Aggressive, Organised, Summoner)

Woodelves

Leader1:Ariel(Protective, Arcane, Philosophical)
Leader2:Orion(Protective, Aggressive, Vengeful)


Here is a list of the number of times each trait was used (i know a lot of it is unbalanced :p):
Aggressive (14)
Creative (3)
Expansive (6)
Financial (4)
Industrious (5)
Organized (7)
Philosophical (5)
Spiritual (8)
Charismatic (6)
Imperialistic (3)
Protective (5)
Arcane (10)
Elementalist (2)
Summoner (3)
Agricultural (3)
Barbaric (2)
Hidden (1)
Vengeful (4)
Greenskins (4)

There are so many "aggressive" Leaders. Maybe we split "aggressive"?

-Horseman: free Mobility1 for mounted units, double production speed for stable.

-Aggressive as it was

-Raider free promotion Raider1

:eek: great idea chamaedrys! hows this?:


Aggressive :
Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.
Raider:
free promotion Raider1 promotion for all units.
Horsemaster:
free Mobility1 promotion for mounted units
double production speed for stable.Creative:
+2 culture per city. Double production speed of Theater, Coliseum.
Expansive :
+2 health per city. Double production speed of granary and harbor.
Financial :
+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce. Double production speed of Bank.
Industrious :
Wonder production increased 50 percent. Double production speed of Forge.
Organized :
Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of lighthouse and courthouse.
Philosophical :
Great People birth rate increased 100 percent. Double production speed of University.
Spiritual :
No anarchy.
Double production speed of the Temples.
50% faster production of religious based units
Charismatic :
+1 happiness per city
-25% XP needed for unit promotions
+1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower
Imperialistic :
+100% Great General emergence
50% faster production of settlers
Protective :
Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically
Double production speed of Walls and Castle
Arcane :
+1 Magic commerce per city
Free Dispel I promotion to all magical units
Double production speed of Libraries and Mage Guilds
Elementalist :
Free ‘Elemental Avitar’ promotion to all elemental units. (giving them all the ability to summon lesser elementals)
50% faster Elementalist production time.
Summoner :
Free ‘Permanent Summon’ and ‘Combat I’ to all summoned units.
Agricultural :
+1 food on plots with 2food. 50% faster production of Workers, and farms.
Barbaric :
Civ not at war with barbarians.
Hidden:
Civ boarders are clouded in black fog, hiding it from rival civs.
Vengeful :
All units gain +50% EXP when the Civ is at war.
All cities suffer 50% less war wariness.
Greenskins :
Units suffer from Animosity etc.



Human Civs:

Amazons(not in yet)

Araby

Leader:Jaffar (Elementalist, Philosophical, Spiritual)

Bretonnia

Leader1:King Louen Leoncoeur(Organised, Spiritual, Charismatic)
Leader2:Gilles le Breton(Spiritual, Expansive, Charismatic)

Cathay

Leader:Emperor Wu(Agricultural, Imperialistic, Philisophical)

Empire

Leader1:Emperor Magnus(Imperialistic, Philosophical, Spiritual)
Leader2:Emperor Karl Franz(Imperialistic, Industrious, Financial)

Estalia

Leader:Highpriest Jose'Paul(Spiritual, Seafaring, Organised)

Ind

Leader:Moghul King Akabar(Spiritual, Organized, Agricultural)

Kislev

Leader1:Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar(Aggressive, Expansive, Charismatic)
Leader2:Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen(Elementalist, Arcane, Protective)

Nippon

Leader:Emperor Takagura(Agricultural, Organized, Industrious)

Norse

Leader:Ragnar(Raider, Seafaring, Barbaric)

Tilea

Leader1:Marco Columbo(Financial, Seafaring, Expansive)
Leader2:Luccini and Lucan(Spiritual, Industrious, Charismatic)


Ungols(not in yet)

Leader:Toghrul(?) (Horsemaster, Expansive, Spiritual)


Other races


Chaos

Leader:Archaon, Lord of the End Times(Hidden, Aggressive, Summoner, Expansive)

Chaos Dwarfs(not in yet)

Darkelves

Leader1:Malekith the Witchking(Seafaring, Arcane, Aggressive)
Leader2:Morathi the Hag Queen(Aggressive, Arcane, Summoner)

Dwarfs

Leader1:Thorgrim Grudgebearer(Industrious, Financial, Vengeful)
Leader2:Baragor(Industrious, Aggressive, Protective)

Ogre Lords(not in yet)

Leader:Greaseus Goldtooth (Financial, Raider, Organised)

Orcs

Leader1:Grimgor Ironhide( Expansive, Aggressive, Greenskins)
Leader2:Azhag the Slaughterer(Raider, Greenskins, Barbaric)

Gobbos(not in yet)

Leader1:Grom the Paunch (Aggressive, Charismatic, Greenskins)
Leader2:Skarsnik (Arcane, Expansive, Greenskins)

Highelves

Leader1:Aenarion(Protective, Arcane, Creative)
Leader2:Finubar(Creative, Seafaring, Financial)

Hobgoblin Hegemony

Leader1:??? (Horsemaster, Raider, Greenskins)
Leader2:??? (Horsemaster, Barbaric, Greenskins)

Tombkings

Leader1:Settra the Imperishable(Arcane, Organized, Vengeful)
Leader2:Khalida Neferher(Arcane, Vengeful, Aggressive)

Lizardmen(not playable yet)

Leader1:Mazdamundi (Arcane, Creative, Philosophical)
Leader2:Tenehuini (Spiritual, Arcane, Charismatic)

Skaven(not in yet)

Sylvanians

Leader:Vlad von Carstein(Aggressive, Organised, Summoner)

Woodelves

Leader1:Ariel(Protective, Arcane, Philosophical)
Leader2:Orion(Protective, Aggressive, Vengeful)

Hmmm... *Jumps in at the deep end, and sees if he is kicked out, or if there is actually acid instead of water*


All good if I make suggestions for a race that's not playable yet? Yes? No? Well... Here goes...

Lizardmen(not playable yet)

Leader1:Mazdamundi [Spiritual, Arcane]
Leader2:Tenehuini(still need art) [Spiritual, Vengeful]



Justification for the first... Mazdamundi is, of course, the Mage-Priest of Mage-Priests, and the Slann being the Spirtual and Arcane leaders of the Lizardmen (Well... THE leaders really), it would make sense.


As for Tenehuini... Spiritual. He is the Prophet of Sotek, after all. And Vengeful because he has a -serious- gripe against the Skaven... And anything esle that ain't Lizardmen more like than not.

hey Celeborn:)

dont worry, any suggestion is welcome, for current and future civs :p

why didnt i think of mazdamundi being spiritual :confused: that really DOES make sense, although id like to stick to 3 traits (more fun :p) so how about Spiritual, Arcane, philosophical (because most of the time the slann sit there contemplating the words of the old ones )

indeed i also never thought of Tenehuini as vengeful... what would you say to Spiritual, vengeful and charismatic?

Hmmm... Well if three traits, then for Mazdamundi I would have suggested [Arcane, Spiritual, Philosophical].

As for ze old Tenehuini... Spiritual, Vengeful, and then either charismatic (Playing of his Prophet of Sotek angle and the fact that thousands of Skinks started following him) or even Aggressive, as the Red Crested Skinks are a much more aggressive spawning of skinks.

Come to think of it... Any Lizardmen leader would HAVE to be spiritual :P

After all... They wouldn't be changing systems if it wasn't part of the Old Ones' Plan. And if it's part of the Great Plan, then it has to be done. So no dissent and no anarchy :P

OO time to start it :D

Mazdamundi: Let me just point out the Slann are the nominal heads of the Lizardmen.. they are not puppets they just dont really take an interest in whats going on... dont forget what seem to be the worst problem for us.. might seem to be fairly mild to them (if they were aware of it..) dont forget the oldest Slann are 8,000 years which is older than any elf alive... and even when there dead they still hold to there bodies...

The real day to day power (really year to year power) are the high ranking skink priests.. Saruas are not really capable of thinking about anything other than killling and well the rest of the stuff Lizardmen have probably dont think a great deal about anything..

Spiritual.. well the slann wouldnt fight each other... but they do quite often disagree with what the Old Ones actually said or meant.. there subordinates probably fight... but i agree that Spiritual is about right

Tenehuini is not a natrual creature... because Sotek is actually a god not an old one...

Sotek is the skink anti-skaven god.. he is vengince incarnate.. i woudlnt say he is Charismatic i dont think he needed to raise an army.. he was born as he was and the Slaan Mages "gave" him the troops he needed (more like the red crested Skinks just did what they had been made for) i would lean to agressive.. lizardmen armies tend to defend there cities and the area around them he went on a full offensive against the Skaven.. and won :D

8000 years? Pfft! That the -youngest- Slann :P

Spiritual.. well the slann wouldnt fight each other... but they do quite often disagree with what the Old Ones actually said or meant.. there subordinates probably fight... but i agree that Spiritual is about right

And the Dwarven Empire is -still- reeling from when various Slann come to various conclusions of when and where the continents should be shifted.


Tenehuini was a natural born Skink as any other... Remember he was on of the Skink priest of his temple city when the Slann there fell ill and gave the Sacred Plaque to him. And where I thing Charismatic would fit him is that... Well, the Skinks where the worst hit by the newly found Clan Pestilence... So a skink that preached about a new god that would kill the rat-men and drive them from Lustria could come across as Charismatic...


But... To be honest, I do think Aggressive would fit better.

Sotek allready existed.. exactly what he existed as was never said.. but in the very small amount written about him it does state that he existed prior to the Skaven Invasion (i really cant be bothered spelling Pesitlens every time..) as to what capacity...

You cannot honestly tell me that he was not selected for a special reason.. you dont become the Avatar of a god without some sort of vetting.. Skinks are created not born are they not...

And it wouldnt matter if he was charismatic or not.. Red Crested Skinks where created to follow him they couldnt do anything else... that is what they were created to do and that is what they had to do... needless to say it didnt matter what any of the other skinks or any other lizardmen did.. he had an army specially made for him :D

Agressive would be better :P Charastimatic gives them -25XP :( which doesnt really suit them... skinks can learn... Sauras dont really learn...

3rd Generation Slann are the oldest Slann in the world aged around 8,000 years

Slann do not fight each other i wouldnt be surprised if there subordinates stuffed up on occasion and took something a Slann said of hand as law.. dont forget the words of a Slann are law and are utterly binding...

And yes the Slann destroyed many of the Dwarven Cities... and lets not forget who sealed the Southern Gates and who held the Northern Gates in check until the silly elves decided to finish it...

I have another Lizardmen person on side!!! bugger off elves :P

Shouldn't really be turning this into a lore discussion... But...

>_>

<_<


In regards to Slann age... 2nd Generation is the oldest. Mazdamundi and 7 other Slann in the world are of this generation.

Now... Timeline time (Dates ripped from Lizardmen Army book)

The Polar Warp Gates went critical at -c5,600 (Pre-comet, ie Birth of Sigmar). No slann where spawned after this, because one the Old Ones vanished (During or slightly after this event) the slann spawning pools went dormant/dead. We are now sitting some where past 2520 (The date when Albion's mists cleared, and Mazdamundi and Kroq-Gar went forth and whooped everybody and took the Island back).

So... -c5,600 to 2520 gives us just over 8000 years for the youngest Slann.

As for Sotek... Quoted word for word from the Rise of Sotek box-out on page 15.

Sotek reigns as the great serpent-god of the Lizardmen, and every temple-city venerates his supreme divinity with a blood-soaked pyramid. Some believe that this foremost deity is one of the Old Ones returned, though many see him as a wholly different entity from the creators of the Lizardmen.

His coming was predicted in the Prophecy of Sotek, brought to light in Caqua by the renowned skink prophet Tehenhauin, sometimes known as Tenehuini. The blood god's appearance into the world would be signalled but the appearance of a two-tailed comet in the heavens representing his forked tongue. The growth of the Cult of Sotek started amongst the Skinks, who offered up thousands of rat-spawn in bloody sacrifices in his name, before spreading across all the Lizardmen lands. It is said that sacrifices caused swarms of snakes and serpents to overwhelm the Skaven tunnels under Lustria, forcing Clan Pestilens to abandon them. Myths speak of Sotek himself, in the form of a gigantic serpent, ridding Lustria of the Skaven and pursuing them to the Coast. He then plunged into the ocean, emerging even mightier in the Southlands. From there he slithered into the depths of the earth in his relentless pursuit of the Skaven and now lurks there still, feeding endlessly on rat-spawn and protecting his people from the Skaven menace.

The appearance in the skies of the twin-tailed comet is recieved with rejoicing and blood sacrifices of thanks among the Lizardmen, for they know that it heralds the reawakening of Sotek, who will strike down their foes with his furious anger.



Also... If you say that skinks can learn where saurus can not, then Charismatic would be perfect. It's 25% less experience needed. So you get the second level up at say 4xp, instead of 5. Also... If you have acces to the Lustria source book, read through the Rise of Sotek section. The way the action of Tenehuini are described, I'd say he was rather the charismatic skink. ;)


Ignore the name and the signature... I'm a Lizard player through and through. :D

:lol: gotta love the lizards :p im also a lizardman player, after woodelves of course ;) oh, and khemri.

so what do you guys think then? charismatic or aggressive for tenehuinni? ive heard a fair bit of support for both, so im happy with either.

Well i got served.. badly but we have found our lizardmen guru...

lets have a look at who knows what

AH knows Rats

PH knows Elves

CE knows Lizards

and Me well i know the Empire and Kislev

I know everyone will say but i know this and i know that... well for the moment we should be looking at what we know back to front so write down what you know really well..

Me: i know: Empire, Kislev, Ungols and the Human part of Chaos
Me: i sorta know: Brettonia, Chaos Dwarves, Lizardmen (which doesnt matter anyways we have a person who knows them)
Special Interest: general fluff, the Empire and Kislev and Magic
WFRP experience: nil
General Info: I have been playing the Empire and Kislev for quite a while i have a go at quite a few other teams.. Chaos Dwarves, Lizards and a few others...

With a format like that... please write what your general level of WFRP (Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing)experience is and maybe a general bit of info

This way we can divide up the work on the Civlopedia...

We really need a Stunties person, someone who knows enough to bluff some Amazon info and some Vampire Counts info...

Fluff Answers:

Skinks can learn, Sotek is a god not an old one proper, the twin tailed comet is an old one device of some sort because it holds special significane to an number of civs, Lizards, The Empire and Cathay tell me if you can think of any others, i dont tend to think of any lizardmen as being terribly charismatic.. from what i have read they [Skinks] tend to maintan a fairly even disposition

So you agree that the Slann only really take an active interest when the going is really really tough? and the rest of the time the Skinks pretty much run the show? and the Slann appear at least to me to have no real crystal clear idea of what the old ones are doing, ordering or wanting namely because there missing a heck of alot of stuff...?

As for the timeline its about 4-8 odd years from the time of Albion ish... i wouldnt trust the imperial system for anything.. the Empire doesnt even know when Sigmar dissapeared there is about -20 to 20 year give which means that its about 20 years fast or slow.. and i wouldnt be surprised if the Church of Sigmar just choose a year arbitarily for the birth of Sigmar...

Im not sure if anyone else has noticed by GW cant seem to decide on alot of dates... they seem to shift every know and then as they progress the storyline and rewrite history/"add new content"... the date of the Old Ones leaving the world used to be alot shorter at some stage (im not 100% sure but i do remeber that)... and i really do not want to go sifting through all my Warhammer junk (so if anyone remebers of the top of there head please do tell)

Correct me if im wrong... (waiting for them OO)

I know alot of woodelves and khemri, some High elves, Dark elves, and Lizardmen. and some smaller tid bits from heaps of other races (not stunties though :p )

I think greenskin would be better as a civ-wide unit-promotion on all units, which need to be civ-specific anyhow as they are a different race than humans.
Greenskin civics and techs can be greenskin only through a free "greenskin_racialtrait_tech" that is offlimits to all other civs.

Welp... I can provide info for the Lizards. I also have access to the Army books of Woodelves, Vampire Counts, Khemri, Hordes of Chaos (And Storm of Choas), Ogre Kingdoms (Which is another race that holds the twin-tailed comet in a high regard... The Coming of the Great Maw) and then of course Lizards and Lustria.


And yeah, though I sadly don;t have my 5th ed Lizard book anymore, I do know that the dates have been shited a bit. It's a side effect of a "living lore".


Also, if I may give my two cents. I would suggest instead of "Sylvanians" you'd actually have "Vampire Counts", with possibly Manfred and/or Neferata as leaders. Though Vlad -is- much cooler than Manfred.

Also, if I may give my two cents. I would suggest instead of "Sylvanians" you'd actually have "Vampire Counts", with possibly Manfred and/or Neferata as leaders. Though Vlad -is- much cooler than Manfred.
Yeah already thought about that and actually probably will do it as soon we get to flavorizing the vampirecivs. Long way to go until then but having more than one bloodline in the game is what I'm aiming at for sure. We'd need to find a way to diverse buildable units depending on the Leader you choose. But first we have to finish the basic setup of the game before we get into such details;)

So... Question... Are you planning on basing a fair amount of things on the scripting in FfH (ie, magic, vampirism, etc), or going for a more "from scratch" plan?

The spell system is certainly very usefull, nice and versatile.
A bit complex though. :(

Hmmm... But as most of the magic system (ie, how things interact between themselves) is in place, would it not simply be a matter (not saying it's a simple matter :P ) of changing values?

I ask, because I seriously don't know... Scripting is beyond my scope of knowledge. Really, I'm more of a design/ideas person ;)

yes.
I could simply copy their files and delete the spells for now, but where is the fun in that.
as it is, I have truncated their entire spellsystem into a one function (two actually!) mechanism...that does not work. :( :confused:

If the purpose is to get a functioning mod to have a go at, sould that be done first? And then later you can have some more fun messing around with the system to get it to work better ;)



Though... The "mana node" system wouldn't fit in the Warhammer world... Though how you would represent the winds of magic in the FfH magic system is (currently[ie. some kind of an idea is bound to come sooner or later]) beyond me.

that is the thing.
mana is totally un-warhammer.

thus we were thinking of an entire new commerce: magic, representing the portion of the winds a civ can harness.

at first, just want to use the spellsystem for dynamic-promotions
(to be used by special abilities, items and actions.)

however as I dont know what im doing, i have to disect the ffe2 code.

I would suggest a building acting like an airport (interms of "air commerce" and not teleportation) to generate said "magic commerce" (if you can implement it). Though that would work more for a ley-line based magic system and not quite for the Winds of Magic. Though it may be the best way to represent the winds.

I was planning to use the FFH armageddoncounter. Since it can be raised and lowered by actions, buildings etc. it's a nice flexible way to simulate the dynamic of the winds of magic. Better than a commerce that only goes one way(up in time).
But this is really that complicated we'll probably need several months to implemend it unless we find a way to clone Kael:D.

I was planning to use the FFH armageddoncounter. Since it can be raised and lowered by actions, buildings etc. it's a nice flexible way to simulate the dynamic of the winds of magic. Better than a commerce that only goes one way(up in time).
But this is really that complicated we'll probably need several months to implemend it unless we find a way to clone Kael:D.


Hmmm... The advance and decline of the Realms of Chaos, which see with them shifts the winds of magic...


As Chaos advances, magic become more powerfull, but also more unstable. With it's decline, vice versa.

The Hobgoblin leader would be Hobgobla Khan.

Surely Ariel/Orion should be Protective/Aggressive? Or have they transmogrifed them to irrecognizability since my WHFB days?

Hmmm... The advance and decline of the Realms of Chaos, which see with them shifts the winds of magic...


As Chaos advances, magic become more powerfull, but also more unstable. With it's decline, vice versa.

Negativ effects from spell miscasts would be cool to have as well:)

I was planning to use the FFH armageddoncounter. Since it can be raised and lowered by actions, buildings etc. it's a nice flexible way to simulate the dynamic of the winds of magic. Better than a commerce that only goes one way(up in time).
But this is really that complicated we'll probably need several months to implemend it unless we find a way to clone Kael:D.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all turns out! I played WHFB and WFRP ages ago, and I really thought the world and civilizations were great.

When I started thinking about the Winds of Magic, the armaggedon counter from FFH was the first thing that jumped into my mind. This way, from turn to turn the amount of "magic" that you have available can vary. You can still do all sorts of things with it, too, from leader traits that make a greater percentage of the magic available to you, to buildings that harness greater amounts of magic from the winds, to special resources that affect the winds worldwide, to scripted events that can affect the winds for a few turns (think of a goody hut/cave that unleashes wild magic, doubling the Winds of Magic for the next 5 turns).

Why not do what they do in FFH; have your palace give you "mana" (winds here)? That way, you can customize it to race. You can even combine this with an armageddon counter type deal where different winds are stronger at certain levels (I.E. Life magic would be better at lower armageddon levels, metal near the center, and death near the end, etc...) The problem with that is that good races would need more help when the counter is high to fight the tides of evil, and vice versa. That dosn't make much sense conceptually since the more evil in the world the weaker the good winds would be, etc...

As for VC; I like how it was done in CivIII warhammer; Sylvania was generic VC, Lhamia was somewhere inbetween TK and Sylvania, with units from both. Blood Dragons can have some elven/empire influences, and Strigoi can have Norsca/Kislev/Chaos influence. Necrarch are kind of the oddball out, and I really don't know much about them, though they might have some more southerly influence since that is where they originated.

I know a some about Chaos Dwarves, and some of Ogres, and alittle of everything really. Any help I can render would be my pleasure.

Edit: Greasus should be Financial/Expansive, but thats only greasus and his tribe. Skrag would be Expansive/Spiritual, and thats the combo I would pick that best represents the Ogres. No anarchy dosn't make much sense in that they are in constant civil strife, but they are united at least nominally Religiously, and are a very religious race.

I agree with the sentiment that Greenskins shouldn't be a trait, and rather a promotion their units start with.

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all turns out! I played WHFB and WFRP ages ago, and I really thought the world and civilizations were great.

When I started thinking about the Winds of Magic, the armaggedon counter from FFH was the first thing that jumped into my mind. This way, from turn to turn the amount of "magic" that you have available can vary. You can still do all sorts of things with it, too, from leader traits that make a greater percentage of the magic available to you, to buildings that harness greater amounts of magic from the winds, to special resources that affect the winds worldwide, to scripted events that can affect the winds for a few turns (think of a goody hut/cave that unleashes wild magic, doubling the Winds of Magic for the next 5 turns).
Warpstone indeed should have an effect on the counter. The arcane trait might be good to use magic more economically and efficiently.
I like the idea with the goody hut as well.

Why not do what they do in FFH; have your palace give you "mana" (winds here)? That way, you can customize it to race. You can even combine this with an armageddon counter type deal where different winds are stronger at certain levels (I.E. Life magic would be better at lower armageddon levels, metal near the center, and death near the end, etc...) The problem with that is that good races would need more help when the counter is high to fight the tides of evil, and vice versa. That dosn't make much sense conceptually since the more evil in the world the weaker the good winds would be, etc...

As for VC; I like how it was done in CivIII warhammer; Sylvania was generic VC, Lhamia was somewhere inbetween TK and Sylvania, with units from both. Blood Dragons can have some elven/empire influences, and Strigoi can have Norsca/Kislev/Chaos influence. Necrarch are kind of the oddball out, and I really don't know much about them, though they might have some more southerly influence since that is where they originated.

I know a some about Chaos Dwarves, and some of Ogres, and alittle of everything really. Any help I can render would be my pleasure.

Edit: Greasus should be Financial/Expansive, but thats only greasus and his tribe. Skrag would be Expansive/Spiritual, and thats the combo I would pick that best represents the Ogres. No anarchy dosn't make much sense in that they are in constant civil strife, but they are united at least nominally Religiously, and are a very religious race.

I agree with the sentiment that Greenskins shouldn't be a trait, and rather a promotion their units start with.
I don't think that mana nodes fit well into the wh world. And diversifying the winds of magic into different colored winds would become to complicated imo. It's already complicated enough to implement and balance it with a single magic counter.;)

I wasn't talking about nodes; in FFH, each races palace gives you automatically a few kinds of mana as a resource. If possible, you could make these winds non-tradeable resources, and potentially make wonders that give you acess to other winds. That way you can customize it for each race, and still keep it felling like winds.

You could also have certain religious buildings give acess to other winds.

k gotcha;)

So... Say like... The Colleges of Magic in Altdorf?

being me... :O all im going to say to this is simplicity...

And this is for the VC part...

Sylvania and Lhamia are the only viable vampire counts to call a civ... and in my eyes they are rather weak choices but never the less they fill a role that is needed :O

Blood Dragons last time i checked are single heroes who run around killing people e.g challenging people to duels over bridges then resurecting them if they where a good fight etc... not really civ material...

and if i remeber correctly.. Blood Dragons are pretty widespread... there are mentions of Blood Dragons pretty much everywhere... i dont see them as being Elves or even having Elven influences.. they are Blood Dragons... doesnt matter how they dress

Strigoi... are monsters... complete utter monsters civilization... no... a step above animals (cockroaches lets say) yes... not really worth a civ...

Necarch... well if they were not mixed in with the proper VC... then yeah i guess they could have had there own civilization.. if you streched it...

But those 3 would make for interesting Barbs, Mercs... :O rather than just having generic Dogs of War... or a mix of them... i dont see why Blood Dragons wouldnt fight for a nation if the price was right the same for the rest of them vampire non civs... maybe not Strigoi.. but it would be awesome if they ran around as barbs killing wild animals and units and creating ghouls and undead wolves and bats and the like... would be an interesting idea :O

(we need help i didnt say that though :O fleshing out on Ogres and the like would be... write some civlopedia entries :D)

As for civilizations and traits i think it could be like that:

1. The empire
_Emperor Magnus the pious (Fanatic, philosophical)
_Emperor Karl Franz (Creative, Imperialistic)
(_Sigmar: Charismatic, Warbringer)

2.The Kingdom of Bretonnia
_King Louen Leoncoeur (Agricultural, Creative)
_The fay Enchanteress (Agricultural, Arcane)
(_Gilles le Breton: Charismatic, Fanatic)

3. The City states of Tilea
_Warlord Borgio the Besieger (Agressive, Financial)
_Merchant prince Lorenzo Lupo (Financial, Seafaring)
(_ Lucan and Luccina: Charismatic, Industrious)

4. The kingdoms of Estalia
_Highpriest Jose'Paul (Fanatic,philosophical, Seafaring)

5. The kingdom of Kislev
_Tzar Boris Ursus, the Red Tzar(Aggressive, Expansive)
_Tzarina Katarin the Icequeen(Elementalists, Protective)

6. The Araby Sultanate
_ Sultan Jaffar (Imperialistic, Elementalist, Seafaring)

7. The Nippon Shogunate
_Emperor Takagura (Organized, Spiritual, Protective)

8. The Grand Empire of Cathay
_Celestial Emperor Wu (Agricultural, Imperialistic, Expansive)

9. The Kingdom of Ind
_Moghul King Akabar (Elementalist, Expansive, Spiritual)

10. The Tribes of Norsca
_Jarl Erik the Lost (Warbringer, Plunderer, Seafaring)

11. The Kurgan Tribes
_Warlord Vardeck Crom the Conqueror (Warbringer, Plunderer)
_Lord Archaon the Everchosen (Charismatic, Warbringer)

12. The Hungs Tribes
_Warlord Leung Kwok the blessed (Warbringer, plunderer, Nomad)

13. The Vampires Counties
_Lord Vlad Von Carstein (Arcane, Agressive)
_Neferata, the Queen of Mysteries (Arcane, Charismatic)
_ King Ushoran (Nomad, Hidden) (he is the first Strigoi vampire before the mutated into the beast they are today)
_W'soran (Arcane, Summoner) (first Necrarch vampire)
_Abhorash (Warbringer, Agressive) (First Blood Dragon vampire)

I'm not sure if Ushoran, W'soran and Abhorash should be in but it could put variety and represent the 5 bloodlines (The 5 Leaders could be able to train every types of vampires but with bonus or a unique unit for their own bloodline)

14. The Kingdoms of Khemri
_ Priest King settra the Imperishable (Imperialistic, Summoner)
_Prince Tutankhanut (Charismatic, Agricultural)


15. Karak Ankor
_ HighKing Thorgrim Grudgebearer (Dwarf, Industrious, Financial)
_Slayer King Ungrim Ironfist (Dwarf, Industrious, Warbringer)
(_Grombrindal: Dwarf, Charismatic, Agressive)

16. Zorn Uzkul
_ HighPriest Astragoth (Dwarf, Arcane, Slavers, organized)

17. Ulthuan
_Phoenix King Finubar the Traveller (Elf, Seafaring, philosophical)
_Phoenix King Caledor the First (Elf, Arcane, Philosophical )
(_Aenarion: Elf, Charismatic,agressive )

18. Nagarroth
_Witch King Malekith (Elf, Slavers,Warbringer)
_Hag Queen Morathi (Elf, Slavers, Summoner)

19. Athel Loren
_King in the Woods Orion (Elf, Hidden, Warbringer)
_ Queen Ariel (Elf, Hidden, Summoner)

20. Greenskin Hordes
_Warboss Grimgor Ironhide (Greenskin, Warbringer, Nomad)
_Warboss Azhag the Slaughterer (Greenskin, Agressive, Organized)
_Warlod Snarsnik (Greenskin, Arcane, Expansive)

21. The ogre Kingdoms
_Overtyrant Greasus Tribestealer Drakecrush Hoardmaster Goldtooth the Shockingly Obese (And it's the real full name lol , proably better to simply call him Overtyrant Greasus Goldtooth) (Agressive, Plunderer, Financial)

22. The Followers of the Old Ones
_Venerable Lord Kroak (Lizardman, Arcan, Philosophical)
_Lord Mazdamundi (Lizardman, Arcan, Organized)
_Prophet Tehenhauin (Lizardman,Fanatic , expansive)

23. The Children of Chaos
_Gorthor the Beastlord (Agressive, Hidden, Plunderer)
_Morghur the Master of Skulls (Agressive, Hidden, Arcan)

24. Albion
_Great Oracle Daghda ( Fanatic, Arcan, agressive)

25. The Under Empire
_Council of 13 ( Hidden, Fanatic, Expansive

There are the races and traits i'm thinking of

For the Traits Greenskins, elves, dwarves, fanatic and warbringer, must think of what they do exactly

Some decisions I made considering your post so far:

-I'm going to include Kurgan and Hung and remove hordes of chaos.
-I won't include other bloodlines than the von Carsteins as playable civs. Other vampires might show up as barbs or maybe minor nations but with the exception of the Carsteins they mostly only infiltrate civilization or behave like barbs towards civs they certainly don't build a civilization. (Lhamia is a special case but since Lhamia actually was a part of Nehekhara I probably won't make them a seperate civ and later Lhamians also only try to take control of civilizations from the inside - the silver pinnacle wherever that is isn't what I'd call a civilization by itself)
-I'm considering more Leaderheads as well(Sigmar, Fay Enchantress etc. but I'm not entirly settled on that yet)

I updated the first pages about it(things might still change;) )

Good name for an Amazon Leader anyone?

Also good pictures for new Leaderheads are again required. Links help a lot!

I don't think amazon should be in: they are only a few hundred women reclused on a tiny island of Lustria, they just want to be left alone. (perhaps make them a barb city)

In fact Amazons where in the old civ III warhammer mod because long long ago (like 20 years) in the first editions of warhammer the background was "in progress" and the amazon had an empire like the ungols (and the brettonian had canons : / ).

The old old background is kinda sucky because it was made at a time where warhammer had not found his true actual "design and flavor" IMHO.

Albion (the cavemen with giants Albion of the new canon fluf) would be more interesting.

And for the von carstein having the only vampire "civilisation" i think you are right (make lahmia barb city ?) and the vampire civ could always be able to build others bloodlines vampires units (specialized units).

http://nwvault.ign.com

Look there under Portraits - lots and lots of user created pictures availiable for use.

Also, what about Mannfred von Carstein as well for the Vampires?

hmm...

I was brainstorming last night about how to make wandering civs work.
(trait NOMAD)
The best idea I came up with, was reusing the barbarian scenario, at least some of the mechanisms.
A cool way to do greenskins, may be by tribe-unit-cities with spawning powers as well as special tech-upgrade options etc. Recruitmentpoint bonusses for having ork settlements etc in 'cityradius'.
develloping WAAGH!! may spawn a warlord-unit, and convert all ork settlements into basic units.
(stage1:settle> stage 2: waagh!> stage3: capture cities> reset to stage 1)

Movable 'cities' may however be an interesting but useless/difficult idea to accomplish. Unless Orks are prevented from building real cities otherwise... and only capture them from others.

This still needs alot of thought. :)



As I was thinking of different playstiles, I also thought of an alternative play-flavour for the ARCANE trait.
A penalty on culture production, but using magic as a quick way to grab land and ward-stones etc to hold it against culture using civs or rivalling arcanes.
Still need to think on how to actually accomplish a workable/dynamic system.
Could be combined with the 'changing lands' by magic taint idea.

time for lasagna. :p

Or maybe also the protectionist trait. (I was thinking of the woodelves primarily.)
Cannot attack outside of cultural borders... unless Kurnous is abroad on a Wildhunt.
This 'wild hunt' could be in the form of a Great General(Orion), which allows units on his/her tile to attack. And who is around for only several turns..... hmm but... Khurnous is said to be awakened each year...? Maybe just a chance of him being reborn each year? % Depending on the number of WildRider units?

im still pretty sure AH that comps dont know how to use the nomad huts... i was thinking something along those lines ages ago... and if my memory holds so were you...

Protectionist would be interesting... :D

@Solwen
About Amazons there's recent ressources on the german lustria campain. Unfortunatly I didn't find anything similar in english language yet:
http://www.games-workshop.de/warhammer/erweiterungen/lustria/index.shtm

I want the Amazons for balance reasons. The big continent in the west is just too empty without them. Albion will just be too small even on the largest maps you could create for civ to bother about however interesting it might be by flavor.

@Mr Square
Yes Mannfred would be a possibility;)

@AH
I could imagine to use some of the Mongol scenarios mechanics for civs like the Hobgoblin Hegemony(only if understood by the AI). The barbscenario might be a little too radical.

Since one turn in civ normally represents several years by design it makes no sense restrict woodelves ability to attack to orions wild hunt. Also this would bind the player to a luckychance mechanic where I think he must be able to decide based on his own strategy.

Yes i was thinking that the west would be too empty and that lizardmen and dark elves would have a too big advantage.

On your "rye and fall of civilisations" style warhammer map perhaps make the the land between nagaroth and lustria filled with barbarians and danger (the warhammer equivalents of usa and north mexico are really dangerous places in warhammer filled with beast haunted swarms and petrified woods).

The amazons all come from the norse colony "Skegi" in Lustria so to add another civ to the west perhaps create a "new worlder" civilisation that englobes the amazons and all the people who have settled on the lustria shore (norse from skeggi, pygmans from the jungle, tilean and estalians pirates , colonists, mercenaries, adventurers, deshonoured knights from all the old world). They have cities (cadavo, skeggi, Dalmark Burg etc...)

With times they formed their own "civilisation" mixing the cultures and habits of their own countries adapted to Lustria. I think they could be (or not) an alternative and a very funny and flavorfull civ to play (in fact they could be like the rye and fall of civilization America, taking population from the unhappy cities of the old world).

And again it's new and canon fluf :)

The amazons were encountered by the Norse from Skeggi. They don't come from there. The backgroundmaterial I linked above states that they fought on various sides of Newworlders - who btw all fight each other so I don't think they'd make up nicely for a new civ. In fact I'd like the oldworldcivs venture to the new world in competion to each other for rare ressources and artefacts like in the campaign. They will encounter pygmans and monstrosities of course as barbs but two civs there will certainly put up for more resistance than one. If there's only the lizards they won't have a civ that competes with them for wonders related to the oldones as no other poeple worship them but lizards and amazons.
The german article says amazons to live in various old ruined templecities of the lizardmen and allthough there were war between them mostly they let each other in peace or even cooperate - indeed it's not that detailed info like a normal armybook gives but clearly amazons form a civilization in the jungle(I didn't decide yet if minor or full but I think it could be fun playing them and gives an opportunity for us to make up some stuff).
Also think of all the sexy models we could put into the game!;)

The Newworlders dont get along... there just extensions of the nations that they represent.. :O

The Imperial Colonies are protectorates of the Emperor...

The Amazons from memory do just live in ruinned temple cities... but i think that would be allright to incorperate as a major civilization..

Here would be my break down of the New World...

Dark Elves: Limited really to the coast for the most part... with the Black Forest and some other "slightly" dangerous zones capable of being cleared/and/or inhabbited sparsely... and pretty much everything else absolutely utterly dangerous... nothing short of an army sort of thing...

There appear to be 3 possible Lizardmen Civilizations.. The Southlands Lizardmen.. the Lustrian proper Lizardmen and the what would be Mexico part of the Lizardmen Empire... which are limited to respectively...

Southlands... The Southlands running below an axis drawn at the equator roughly..

Lizardmen proper... running south of the Amazon River not quite extending over the Spine of Sotek except for Xhotl (ruined) which is in the lower third of it.

Mexican Lizardmen... running pretty much in mexico...

Amazoniana: in between the Amazon river as the natrual boundry to the Southern Lizardmen and running South of the Mexican Lizardmen... and extending over the Spine of Sotek to probably the last third of it...

Oh and i'd love to get my hands on the Rhye's version of the world map for playtesting :D

The only similarity to Rhyes Worldmap currently is that it has an enlarged old world as Rhye's map got an enlarged Europe. It's not scripted at all yet nor is it finished. It's for the BTS version and will only work with that version so you will have to wait until I got the mod converted. I'd say it's about 20 % done until a possible release but on wednesday I will be on vacation till the end of this month. So in short. Don't expect anything till 30th of August;)

If youre worrying about the people in the West having a too easy time, look at the map of the Chaos Wastes in the Beastmen army book (can't find a pic, sorry). Its a map with the north pole (or the Chaos Gate) in the center, and it seems that there are loads and loads of barbarian tribes in the north of Naggaroth that could be used as good means of harassing any Dark Elf players.

I know about the tribes of chaos in the north thats a given i think :)

Pleo... the 30th... :eek: will be waiting intently ;)

Updated list to include all Leaders and major civs. Minor civs excluded. All Leaders marked with (T) already got basic diplotext. Allthough some of it might need to be polished it's more important to get basic texts for the others first.

I know about the tribes of chaos in the north thats a given i think :)

Pleo... the 30th... :eek: will be waiting intently ;)

Yeah, I was aware that you all knew about em - theres just a detailed map with the names of all the tribes in the BoC book :)

How about enabling 4 seperate 'instances' of chaotic civs for example?
This may promote chaos infighting. And lower chances of an early victory on Chaos.

I thought about 4 deity specific chaos civs, but this is not compatable with the current Religions ideas.


Plus active chaos gates to spawn hordes of barbaric chaotics. ;)
(Similar spawning grounds for other critters might be a very good idea, coupled to the 'capture creature and use it to makle building required to build monster units'. As the spider,etc in FFH)

keeping chaos alive:
Maybe we need to have a scripted check for 'chaotic civ alive' and then add starting horde+settlers for random chaos civ.
Each Choas civ could have a Chaos Champion as its ruler.


OK never mind the Chaos.
How about the Arcane trait?
-Do you guys think it has merrit?
-Any ideas as to implementation?
The thing I am most concerned about is: Given that cities produce less culture, or culture based on the winds of magic. I want to give ARCANE a way to hold borders against 'might/culture', this would be in the form of 'investitute lands' spells to grab lands and 'wardStones' to hold lands.
Problem is: if culture is forced around wardstones, enemy culture will probably flow around them to invade the lands beyond. Like isolated cities if a neighbouring culture is much more advanced.

ps I agree with ploep on the wildhunt.

Check the list there are 7 factions of chaos:

Norsca
Kurgan
Hung
Beastmen
Chaos Dwarfs(Hashut)
Dark Elves(Slaanesh)
Skaven(Hornet Rat)

Frankly AH your suggestion about the arcane trait seems very complicated and I'm not sure what you want to gain.

Sorry.
What I mean is to severely reduce the amount of culture ARCANE civs derive from the normal culture buildings/specialists.
Compensating this by giving them special spells and improvements to hold/gain lands.
My aim is to create a new style of playing for magic-oriented leaders.

Wardstones may have special unittype exclusion powers. (No chaos-units allowed in tiles directly adjacent to Highelven-wardstone) (Opposing mages would be able to convert/subvert/destroy an enemy ward)


edit: maybe this reduction in culture should be limited to protectionist leaders....


Protectionist/expensionist mutually exclusive? Or would that mean a small protectionist civ that raids and burns it's neighbours?

thinking:... Maybe if I can copy the culture mechanism for magic influence, they can run in tandem...

Still not sure where's the gain. also i.e. Highelves not gaining culture by libraries, theaters while others do looks strange to me. In general replacing a working mechanic with another working not different in principle doesn't make sense to me.
I'm positive on wards but I'm sure that could work without having to touch the whole commercemechanic.
Anyway we should switch this discussion to the magicthread as you did. It's idle talk here as long we don't have magic implemented yet.

Better steer away from the are High Elves really cultured arguement Masada :P

Cause personally i dont think they have really grown in a meaningful way for a long time... consider it a cultural plataue...

But i tend to agree with you... drawbacks are desirable... but making the mod so complex its bewildering is not what were after...

Wards would be interesting :D

@ Ploe: Err yes , naked macho women with axe ... you landed a hit :) Yes amazons could be a very good idea (perhaps mix them with the indigenous/pygmans/canibals of lustria ?

@ Ploe: Err yes , naked macho women with axe ... you landed a hit :) Yes amazons could be a very good idea (perhaps mix them with the indigenous/pygmans/canibals of lustria ?
Yeah sure they need some slaveunits after all and this gives an opportunity to use some of all that awesome nativeart that's developed;)

@slaves:
yes!
warhammer really should have slaves and such. Captured slaves as workers, but civ-native slaves are also used as cannonfodder in battle.
Not sure how levies could be usefull there now, maybe redesign the bombard damage to hit hard only one random unit in a stack, but HARD.
Or somehow incorporate a 'look out sir' mechanism.


@culture penalty:
not just elves, all ARCANE leaders.
So Elven civs choosing a leader without ARCANE would not have this negative culture modifier, but also lack the arcane boni for magic.
Also some High Elven religious buildings could have a good culture bonus to compensate for this 'shortcoming'.

The reasoning behind the culture penalty for mage-kings is:
Mages tend to focus on personal power, not the power of their underlings.
(one-man culture)
Their empires tend to grow fast, but eventually need powerfull magical artefacts/spells to keep their ground vs military might/popular cultures.

All i have to say... is the slave song

SLAVE SLAVE SLAVE SLAVE SLAVE DOWN :lol:

Crazy warrior women FTW :lol:

Updated first post. Ungols are out(Hungs do the job). I'm thinking about Lhamians again. We need a civ to balance the Tombkings in the southlands.

Okay so.... at a guess...

We have Araby... occupying the Western Edge... who's cities conflict with the Tombkings... almost up to the river... so they run from lets say from the upper third of the Eastern Coast to the Middle of the Northen Coast...

We have the Tomb kings now running from the other half of the North to well south... on both sides of the Doom Mountains running as far south as the Southern Lizardmen

So in the balance of powers we end up with...

Araby taking probably East of that major river (Tombkings are better placed to hold a city or two closest to it... assuming there Capitol is along that River)... and running South along the West coast as far as its worth putting cities on... and maybe moving inland... but that presents a problem... for one Tombkings are probably closer (assuming Araby's starting city is between that ridge of mountains and the coast in the East) to the Southern Equatorial zone.... so in a given game

They probably control from... just past that River- South to the Bay of Medes (big indent in the Southern buldge where Araby is) - and South as far the as the Lizards allow - and with no checks to the north they can take what they want of what would be the Suez, Isreal, Palanstine, Jordon etc... giving them the larger part of the Southlands and the middle east

(this is without knowing exactly what the terrain is... but at a guess... they steamroll Araby)

Putting Lhamia in will probably block the actual Tombkings from going to far south (and assuming that the Doom Mountains are unbroken) that would funnel Lhamia north and south... North presents a problem that Mountain range appears to be unbroken in the map it would need to be allwoing Lhamia to move into the Broken lands to stop the Tombkings moving to far north...and south presents some problems if the mountains are unbroken then Lhamia is forced to attack the Lizardmen to survive... in which case they are probably forced into a S shape... blocked by the Sea on the Eastern side and on the Western side they would be blocked by Mountains...

So with the Geographic problems in mind... we need to examine the possibilities...

Having Lhamia there will probably be a counter balance... but how effective a counter balance i have no idea... i have a sneaking feeling they will on be able to go North and South... and going North they will run into mountains, the sea or Tombking cities.... and going south Jungle and Lizardmen...

Suggestions:

Shuffle the Doom Mountains a bit West in the North to give a gap for Lhamia to burst north out of... this will offset the Tombkings... and limit the expansion into Isreal/Palastine with terrain or something...

Dont worry about the South Lizardmen will stop that (assuming Lizardmen are in the Southlands as well... can i hear two Lizardmen settlers at game start? :D Dual Empire anyone?)

that way it should balance out the problems... each faction should end up with a quarter of the continent barring any great problem... each side has a limit placed on expansion :D

Araby limits: Lizardmen in the South, Tombkings in the East, the Sea in the West (Crusade possible? blocked out of expanding... hello Estalia)

Lizardmen (Southlands ones): Araby in the East, Tombkings in the Middle, Lhamia in the West and the Sea on the other sides

Tombkings: Caught between Araby on the East, Lizardmen in the South, the Sea in the North, Lhamia in the East as well as Mountains

Lhamia: Mountains in the east, terrain in the North around Isreal/Palastine/Jordon, Tombkings in the east as well (if theres a pass or two), Lizardmen in the South

any questions :lol:

(seeing the map would help... but secrets are secrets ;) and yes i can and will prove this all :lol: )

Are there any leaders that don't have diplomatic text done for them. I'd quite like to do that

Any Leader who doesn't have a (T) in the list above still needs text. Civs that have no text at all have higher priority.

Updated list

Could you PM me the Vlad Von Carstein diplomatic text because i'm working on Manfredd?(It might be the other way around though. I can't remember

Check out this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174256
or just look at the warhammerdiplotext in the Warlords mod. Apart from recent texts posted here the text is the same;)