After long time of being away from Civ3 I decided to start my own SG, which will be played on Deity lever and on Huge map with 16 civs on it, for more fun.
I want to try this warmongering variant - we must eliminate all civs one by one, not like in Always War game, but in order how we met them, or according to 'Shift-D' list. In other words, it's AW with only one civ at the same time - when we will meet first civ, we must fight with them until their (or our :mischief:) death. Then declare on second, then third, and so on until all 15 civs will be razed to the ground :devil:

Always war rules against current opponents are applied, standart SG rules about exploits, reputation, and other things - are applied too, I think it's not needed to post them here.

I'm thinking about 6 players in a roster and 24/48 playing rules, but if somebody will need an extension or skip, it's ok. On huge map turnsets might be too long, so it will be better if firstly everybody will play their first turnset with 20 turns, and then we will change this number to 10.

Now you all can sign up and discuss everything ;)

Roster:

Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob
adz106
Cyllus


Map:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2060/sm4startoneou4.jpg


Save: SM4-StartTwo.SAV (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145768&d=1168541478)

Smart, just an FYI, this is an already existing variant called "Non-Oscillating War" (or NOW). Non-Oscillating War (NOW): The first civ met must have war declared on them during initial diplomacy. Each later civ met gets added, in order, to a list. When the first AI civ on the list is eliminated, war must be declared on the second. As each is eliminated, the next must be declared on before the end of the turn. Other wars are allowed, and alliances are encouraged. Sandbagging or not finishing off a defeated foe simply to not go to war with the next one on the list is illegal. When two or more civs are met simultaneously (via contact sale, perhaps), it is player’s choice which order to declare on them.
Is this Vanilla, PTW, or C3C?

Thanks for that quote, I remember that I saw this variant somewhere, but forgot how it was called :crazyeye:
It's C3C.

Smart !!

I took it as a new year's resolution not to join SG's, for various personnal reasons, but if I had to break my vow it would have been here ;)

Monarchy, deity, huge ... this is going to be a rough tech ride. But it can't be worse than DG AW large ;) Looking forward to see how this one unfolds. Best of luck, what little you'll need :thumbsup:

I'm glad to see you here, even in the Lurker Hotel ;)
I hope other civs will help us, don't forget that we still can trade and make alliances :) I'm not sure about goverment, but maybe later in game we will be able to change it from Monarchy to something better - IIRC game counts war weariness for every civ separately, so if one will get destroyed, all WW points will be lost. But this works only if we be able to make wars without much loss and conquer civs faster then everybody will become unhappy...

sounds very interesting...sign me up...

Thanks for first entry, you're added.
If somebody is afraid of difficulty level and wars, don't worry, with team real difficulty of the game will be around one level less, so Emperor and DG players are wellcome too ;)

lurk me up smart

After long time of being away from Civ3 I decided to start my own SG, which will be played on Deity lever and on Huge map with 16 civs on it, for more fun.
I've always wanted a Diety lever. :D It should help with my prayer life.

I've not played C3C at Diety, but have at Emperor (SGOTM and TDGs). I'd love to join and learn and destroy AIs.

What map setting? On Pangea it would be easier to have the AI's dogpile on the current foe-of-the-moment, while Continents would allow a slight breathing spell after cleansing the starting landmass.

I'd like to sign up if you still have spots available.

I've always wanted a Diety lever. :D It should help with my prayer life.

I've not played C3C at Diety, but have at Emperor (SGOTM and TDGs). I'd love to join and learn and destroy AIs.

What map setting? On Pangea it would be easier to have the AI's dogpile on the current foe-of-the-moment, while Continents would allow a slight breathing spell after cleansing the starting landmass.

You are wellcome, I started to think that nobody likes Deity level and this game will not be filled fast :)
On continents it's really boring to transport tons of units to other landmass later in game and at the same time micromanage all cities on Huge map, so it will be played on pangea.

I'd like to sign up if you still have spots available.
I'll add you, but can you tell us something about yourself? What difficulty level are you usually playing?
___
Since we got some signups, I want to discuss our civilization choise. Celts are nice for early wars and growth - their agriculrural trait will allow us to make 4-turner settler factory in towns with food bonuce, UU stats are not bad, with fast movement they can be used even in Middle Ages, pillaging armies are good too. Other variants are civs with MA unique unit as Knight or Cavalry replacement - Ottomans,India, China, mb some others... But on Huge map with increased research time and on Deity level we may fall behind in techs, so I'm not sure if those civs will be able to use all their power :rolleyes:

I'll join.

Reserving my spot in the lurkers' gallery. Good luck, team!

I'll take that last spot, would space me out from Cammandobob perfectly as he's only an Emporer goon like myself atm.

Ok, sign up is closed now, good luck to all who have joined! :)

I'd like to sign up if you still have spots available.
Welcome to the forum.
[party]
:dance:

I see you've been lurking around for a while before taking the plunge with your first post. Don't feel bad, I did the same thing. (Except that I tried to make a big splash with my first post, a strategy article on a city naming convention. Instead, I only made a small ripple. :lol: )

Welcome to the forum.
[party]
:dance:

I see you've been lurking around for a while before taking the plunge with your first post. Don't feel bad, I did the same thing. (Except that I tried to make a big splash with my first post, a strategy article on a city naming convention. Instead, I only made a small ripple. :lol: )

My bad, I didn't knew that, haven't looked at join date :mischief:
Wellcome to CFC and this game [party]

Does somebody have any suggestions? If no, I will roll few starts tomorrow.

*checks in to Lurker's Hotel*

Does somebody have any suggestions? If no, I will roll few starts tomorrow.
Don't know enough about this level to make suggestions, so I'll just follow the lead of others.

since we have to fight right from the start, a Civ with a strong UU might help...your choice

By the way, do we need to declare immediately without initial trading (if it's possible in the first place)?

and finally, this game is conquests, right?

since we have to fight right from the start, a Civ with a strong UU might help...your choice
I thought so too - I'll chose Celts, also I had successful AW experience with them.

By the way, do we need to declare immediately without initial trading (if it's possible in the first place)?

I don't see why we should ban initial trading, it's pangea and probably we will meet every civ in Ancient Ages, so we will be able to make initial trading only one time with first civ - or they will have to be destroyed before second contact :crazyeye:

and finally, this game is conquests, right?
Of course.

The trading part didn't make much sense... You're probably going to want the militaristic trait- Zulu, anybody? :mischief:

Defensive unique unit and ultra-early GA isn't good. And you're wrong about trading part :mischief:

Smart,

Sorry for taking long to respond. I usually play demi-god level on large pangaea or continents. I have a couple deity wins when I get good enough starts.

I don't post much just do a lot of reading, but I wanted to try a succession game on a hard level to see what bad habits i have that are holding me back. I don't play anything lower than emperor and those games are cakewalks.

Given the nature of the game I think your suggestion of celts is good. Although AA uu's are typically not ideal we're gonna be at war extremely early and it could really facilitate our cause having either mounted warriors or GS. Hopefully we can avoid a despotic GA.

Lurker:

Actually having an AA special unit is almost mandatory in AWDG or higher games. If you do not kick off an early GA, you will not be able to survive, unless you get a favorable location, where you do not face several civs at once.

Something like a huge map wit less than optimal civs, could let you get away with no AA unit, maybe.

@vmxa: this is NOW, not AW. It's only AW with one civ at a time, which isn't that hard, except with the first civ or two.
Well, if you want an early offensive UU...
Aztecs!!!! :devil:
[sarcasm mode activated] Or the Americans. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm mode off]

Well, if you want an early offensive UU...
Aztecs!!!!
You're probably going to want the militaristic trait- Zulu, anybody?
Well, we don't want ultra-early UU to get GA with 3 cities producing warriors ;)
Also UU must be effective during lond time, not just 20-30 turns like Jaguar warrior or what you suggested. Celts are pretty good for this kind of games and Gallic Swordsman can be used even in middle ages.

I was busy today and couldn't roll the map, I'll do it tomorrow...

Then the Romans would work well, too, as would the Persians- these two also have sword UUs, though Celts has best sword UU IMO, however, Rome has Mil trait. It depends on which you want.

I've been playing solo games as the Romans lately. I know militaristic isn't all that highly regarded, and the Legionary isn't a spectacular unit. It's a decent, solid one, though, and I've decided that I like the commercial trait a lot.

I would have to go along with what smart said about the jaguar warriors being more or less worthless. They are obsolete from turn one because any civ that has bronze working is impossible to take over with them.

Speed kills, and having the ability to retreat cuts losses by atleast 50% so any two MP unit is much better than even the 3/3 legion of rome in my opinion. I would say the GS is the best ancient age UU but I'd prefer to have mounted warriors because you can upgrade them through the ages.

On a side note I think the agri trait is must for higher difficulty REX'ing so I see two choices, celts or iroquois. Either will do just fine. Commercial is one of my favorite traits as well, but I think it's a better trait for a builder game where you're going for economic superiority. In this case I think being religious will be better because we'll be getting our research by pounding the AI and our money from capturing their cities.

I think you need something that can make a quick difference on the field. The first war will inevitably drag, and I almost wish for you to drag it along with your despotism. This way you buy more time and build up.
Not having an early UU would help for that, and powerful knight UU's, such as the jumbo, rider and ansar, would make the job much much easier henceforth. It is not AW, so you can still build up, trade, etc. and I do think knights early are an option.

Iroquois and Celts always remain good options for any variant on any map though.

it'e either Iro's or Celts. They are both agri, which is great...

I've been playing solo games as the Romans lately. I know militaristic isn't all that highly regarded, and the Legionary isn't a spectacular unit. It's a decent, solid one, though, and I've decided that I like the commercial trait a lot.

It's a NOW, so Mil trait is worth more than normally. I agree, though, Celts and Iros Rocks!!!!!!!
Commenting on what Beorn Said, if early MA UU, Vikings! A 6 attack Berserker might will help.

Ok I rolled few starts with Iroqous, I think they will be better for this game - comercial trait and starting with Alphabet gives more advantage then religious, also we will be able to upgrade UU to Knight and then to Cavalry.
I looked for river and food bonuces with at least 2 extra food make 4-turner settler factory and got two starts - first one have nice production potential and much forest to chop, second one is really unique - we have 5 wines (already moved settler SW from worker's wine), they gives 3 food each when irrigated and can be MM'ed between towns.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2060/sm4startoneou4.jpg

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8473/sm4starttwoai5.jpg

Just some thoughts...

The second start worries me with that tundra showing on the west corner, but it looks like from the position of the start that we might be able to have our backs covered by the ocean and only have one front to cover during war.

What type of city placement are we going for? I think if we're going for CxxC in the core it may have been better to settle in place so the second city could get on that river to the west. Looks like lots of grassland to the north and east though which could be really nice.

First start looks good but I think I'll vote for two because of the luxury and overall map position. I think the first puts us in the middle of several AI's and grassland is more powerful than plains in imo.

The extra commerce from wines is also a useful bonus, although the tundra is unfortunate. The second start will be even stronger when out of despotism (5 3f/1s tiles, since keeping them irrigated would be food overload at that point I think). I'd go for the food (should be two 4-turn settler factories) and luxury of the second start over the production of the first. Moving the settler S and the next city E of the worker, with another city to the north, may be a possibility. I see no good way to have three cities on a river sharing the wines.

First start looks good but I think I'll vote for two because of the luxury and overall map position. I think the first puts us in the middle of several AI's and grassland is more powerful than plains in imo.
Well, I think position doesn't matter because we are going to be at war only with one civ at the same time, unless we will need to fight with somebody else. But anyway second start is better with all those food and luxuries to export.

think if we're going for CxxC in the core it may have been better to settle in place so the second city could get on that river to the west.
Settling in place will let us loose bonuce from the wines, so we would have to move anyway. I moved the settler SW to see if this start worth playing, else I could just exit and roll next one...
Better move would have been NE, but who knew that :) I rolled around 15 starts before getting this, so I couldn't fog-gaze all of them...

I'd go for the food (should be two 4-turn settler factories) and luxury of the second start over the production of the first. Moving the settler S and the next city E of the worker, with another city to the north, may be a possibility. I see no good way to have three cities on a river sharing the wines.
Yes, we will even have one extra wines for third city, because 4-turner needs only 2 extra food + 1 from our trait. So it will be two 4-turners and one 6-turner, if we will manage our workers to build all mines at right time for requiered SF productivity.

*Looks at starts. Rubs eyes when sees 2nd Start*
FIVE WINES!!!!!!??????? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :wow:

I definetily need to subscribe to this thread. :cooool:

Welcome back Smart! and good luck everyone! :)

Smart,

When I mentioned being surrounded by several AI's I was thinking it would be bad for two reasons. The first as you mentioned, getting into an unwanted war with a second party. Secondly, on higher levels during expansion the AI has a wonderful tendency to launch settlers away from their core and plop them right where you want to put them. So I was thinking 2 would be better from an expansion point as well.

Did we decide where we are going to drop this first settler yet? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think we can make even one 4-turn settler factory with start 2. If we mine both BG's plus irrigate 2 wines that puts us at size 4 with 5spt, assuming we find TWO other BG's or one BG and a forest when we plot the settler we'll still only have 2*5+2+2*7+2 which puts us at 28 shields. So if we want a 4 turn SF we need to go with start 1 or keep rolling until we get a cattle or wheat because we can't do it with two wines.

We're also looking at a lot more worker turns to get a 5-turn SF up and running for start two vs. a 4-turn with start 1 because we can irrigate vs. mine and we have the forests.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think we can make even one 4-turn settler factory with start 2. If we mine both BG's plus irrigate 2 wines that puts us at size 4 with 5spt, assuming we find TWO other BG's or one BG and a forest when we plot the settler we'll still only have 2*5+2+2*7+2 which puts us at 28 shields.
The factory can start at size 5.

Good Point I forgot the granary doesn't wear off till 7. I usually run them 4-6. That's why I only have 5 posts. ;)

Ok I got it, first turns will be played tomorrow.

Good Point I forgot the granary doesn't wear off till 7. I usually run them 4-6. That's why I only have 5 posts. ;)

There is a good article in War Academy about it: http://civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/settler_factory.php

Turn 0 - 4000 BC
Worker irrigates wines, settler was already moved.

Turn 1 - 3950 BC
Moved settler S and found 3 more BGs, very good for both settler factories.

Turn 2 - 3900 BC
Niagara Falls was founded, building warrior.
On huge map tech cost is very high and we have no chances for philosophy, also we need to survive vs first attack - with only warriors it's impossible.
Researching Bronze Working at max rate.

Turn 4 - 3800 BC
Roading irrigated wines.

Turn 7 - 3650 BC
Starting next warrior, moving worker to bg to road it.

Turn 11 - 3450 BC
Warrior is built, wines are connected, building mine on bg.
Since we will have 4 extra food in second town, better will be to build settler before granary, it will be done exactly on growth from size 3 to 4.
I want to see the place for second town and I sent warrior to the mountain.

Turn 12 - 3400 BC
We got cultural expansion and I see more wines and more bg's! :crazyeye:
But SW from capital there is tundra and nothing more...
I found a goody hut but I won't pop it with a warrior because chances for something good on Deity are very low and we don't need to lose worker or get pillaged.

Turn 15 - 3250 BC
Capital grows to size 3.

Turn 17 - 3150 BC
Mine is built, MMing capital for extra commerce instrad of shield, settler will be done on growth anyway because we have forest tile and "emphasize production" in governor screen is turned on (it gives 2 free shields on every growth)
Moving worker to second wines for irrigation.

Turn 20 - 3000 BC
Settler is built, i'll leave it in capital for next player. Starting building granary.
Will we use CxxC for every city or CxxxC for first ring and then CxxC? On huge map there will be very much free space I think...
Moving warrior to 3NE, we can build city there or 1N1NW from warrior.


http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9962/sm43000bcyw8.jpg

ok got it, but where do we want to settle next?

Try east of Niagra Falls with the river and wines.
Or you could settle next to goody hut so that it can't pop barbs... :mischief:

NNW of warrior seems too loose, I would go for where the warrior stands.

If you wish to maximize your wines, I'd go with warrior spot, tundra next to the west most wines, then tundra next to the stray wines SE

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/SM4_2590BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
I feel a little uneasy in a game we have to declare war on the first opponent and we play settler gambits
send the settler to that warrior spot

1.2950BC
found Grand River and research drop to 9

2.2900BC
move warrior north and spot dark red borders :eek:, looks like Byz, but they aren't in the game

3.2850BC
move warrior back to delay meeting them

4.2800BC
start mining BG and Grand river, we will need units when they rush to us

5.2750BC
Niagara Falls grows, work BG as well now

6.2710BC
zzz

7.2670BC
whoever that is popped another border just north of us
swap capital to rax

8.2630BC
lower science to 30%

IT we get BW, set research to WC

9.2590BC
I stop here for us to make decisions
capital is on rax, but could still be changed to a granary
I think we need an archer rush, WC would take 18 turns currently

the borders are very close !!!!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/sm42590.jpg

IIRC the color is sometime allocated to Babs...that would be brilliant...

If Byz aren't in game, it can be Japan (that's bad) or Carthage (that's worse- beware Numidian Mercenaries!!), so I would delay contact until you have, oh say, 10-15 archers. BTW, Babs are Red or a very very dark blue color that I don't know the name of (Navy Blue?).

I think delaying contant is a pipe dream, since they will approach us and not the other way round. I am surprised that on a hyge map, we get this

What ever happened to Salamanca?

If we will be able to build granary and then rax before WC it's ok. Else lets continue working on rax and then - spears? We haven't other military units to build :rolleyes:

What ever happened to Salamanca?
When you ask settler to build city and immediatly cancel request, next time it will offer you other name... It's bug, but I forgot about it :mischief:

@ThERat: I meant go in some other direction and hope that you run into the Americans/Spanish/Portugese before Dark Red finds you. :mischief:

It could be Carthage if Russia is in the game or Japan if Aztecs or Celts are in the game. I'm guessing that's red's third city. If we manage to find somebody else before red finds us, they're not going to be very far either. Got it. I'll go with Smart's suggestion I think.

2590(0): There's Aztecs but no Russia, so it looks like our neighbor is Japan
Do some calculation and determine granary and rax would finish before WC, so switch Niagara to granary; I might change my mind though
I feel like Japan will be coming soon, so I won't go looking for another civ

IBT: Japanese warrior on mountain NW of Niagara Falls (switch back to rax)

2550(1): sell them alphabet for WC, 45g; declare war
No mountains or hills in our territory, so no IW. Masonry in 19 is only tech that will help soonish.
Japan's to the SE too?!

IBT: Good, the warrior fortified
Niagara rax->archer

2510(2): zzz

2470(3): zzz

2430(4): Niagara archer->archer

2390(5): zzz

IBT: Here they come; warrior on mountain moves in; a warrior comes from the north onto wines.

2350(6): zzz

IBT: Both move N of Niagara

2310(7): archer kills one

IBT: Barb moves in from SW. Because we didn't have enough to worry about apparently. Japanese warrior fortifies.
Grand River rax->archer
London builds Colossus

2270(8): archer dies attacking warrior, but takes off 1hp

IBT: warrior runs away
Niagara archer->archer

2230(9): archer promotes attacking warrior

IBT: barb warrior moves next to worker

2190(10): cover worker with warrior
I'll play one more turn to even it up

IBT: barb fortifies
2 Japanese warriors appear in east

2150(11): zzz

Notes: Not sure why Japan hasn't sent more units than they have. They start with 12 warriors; they currently have 7 cities.

Tim, they have the militaristic trait- they start with 4 archers and 8 warriors, not 12 warriors.

Which leaves me wondering: will you pull a warrior scout or two before the end of the "barely surviving" part, or after sheer survival is no longer an issue?

Tim, they have the militaristic trait- they start with 4 archers and 8 warriors, not 12 warriors.
Japan starts with the wheel, not warrior code.

D'oh! Well, you still don't want a bunch of AA units bearing down on you. BTW, I bet one of those cities was popped from a hut.

this will be very tough. A deity civ with so many cities. How ar we going to fight them? We simply need 4 cities and an army to stop them. Maybe we should go for horses...it's not as if we would waste the GA anyway in this sort of situation and HBR is some ways anyway

We got very tough start even with all those wines :eek:
Going for horses with only few cities is not really good now, defensive war for getting leaders in walled towns probably will be better. With all their cities and deity units, archer rush is too late I think :rolleyes:
Are they coming only to Grand River? There are hills NE from us where we may find iron, also it will drag their attention and let them suicide there.

Are they coming only to Grand River?
They're going for whatever looks less defended at the time, it looks like.

Roster:

Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob - UP
adz106 - on deck
Cyllus

:bump:

Oops, my bad.

I'll get it at home.

My internet has been down since thursday I'll catch up and post some thoughts.

RL issues took all my time this evening, so I only got a quick glance at the save. Not wanting to mess things up, here is what I see and what I plan to do (Japan permitting).

Current Empire

Masonry 10 turns; 52 gold -2 gpt 0.7.3

At war with Japan.

Niagara Falls (5) grows in 3, rArcher in 2.
Grand Rivers (4) grows in 2, vArcher in 2.

Need Masonry to build Walls. :eek:

Plans

Worker finishes the mine, then roads, then mines the BG 1W of Niagara Falls, then roads that tile.

Niagara Falls, completes rArcher, follows with an rSpear, then rArcher?

Grand River, completes vArcher, followed by vSpear, then vArcher?

We wait for Japan to attack, while we build up to kill Japanese units when they get close to our cities.

I'll have to second that it looks like we have a pretty rough start after all. Japan is one of the 2-3 civs I really didn't want to have as our first neighbor. This could be ugly until we get MW's.:crazyeye:

Seems that's your only options at this point Commando, and hope Japans stack isn't totally outrageous :eek:

Hit Enter.

Japan comes calling.

Guy in white turns yellow and runs away.

Niagara Falls vArcher -> vSpear, 4 turns.

[I] 1 2110 BC

Fortify Archers and await the onlsaught. Three Japanese units are visible, 2 rWarriors and 1 rSpear. Both warriors are together, the spear is alone.
Worker builds road.


Grand River vArcher -> vSpear, 5 turns.

[I] 2 2070 BC

Two rWarriors are due east of Niagara Falls, which has only one defender.
Wake our Warrior and move into city.
Send vArcher from Grand River to Niagara Falls, but he stops after crossing the river.

At 90% science we learn Masonry in 6, not 7 turns, and still only run at -2 gpt.
That will be OK this turn, but Niagara Falls grows and will become cranky next turn.


We lose our Archer in Niagara Falls to an rWarrior attacking across a riiver (0 of 1).
And Niagara Falls shuts down with the loss of the Archer (and reducing the luxury rate, my bad).

[I] 3 2030 BC

Increase the happy slider to 20% and all is well.
Move vArcher into Niagara Falls and fortify.
Fortify rWarrior.
Three Warriors 1E of Niagara Falls (1 cWarrior, 1 rWarrior and 1 vWarrior).
Two east of Niagara Falls are five rWarriors.


vArcher kills a Warrior and promotes (1 of 2).
rWarrior kills a Warrior (2 of 3).
Our people love us and want to decorate our cave. We keep the cave, but have them put in a fancy walkway.
Barbarian Horsey appears on the mountain NW of our capital.

[I] 4 1990 BC

Road is done, but Barb Horse is a problem.
Five warriors due east of Niagra Falls, which is protected by an rWarrior and eArcher 2/5.
Move Worker to be due South of Niagara Falls, hoping that some Warriors will notice it and move to try to capture it.
Wake eArcher in Grand River, and move across the river, weakening Grand River and, like the Worker, hope to draw some Warrior attention.

The World 1990 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1990BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg



Our warrior kills two, promotes to veteran, is killed by the third and a fourth Japanese warrior kills the weakened eArcher (3 of 6).

Bad News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1990BC_NiagaraFallsTrimmed.jpg

[I] 5 1950 BC

Move eArcher back into Grand River.
Masonry is now 10 turns away.
Move our worker SE. Hope to be able to circle around to Grand River.
Whip a vSpear in Grand River. Next turn is too late.

The World 1950 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1950BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg



Barb Horse dies to a Japanese warrior.

Grand River vSpear -> vSpear, 7 turns.

Bablylon builds the Oracle in Babylon.

[I] 6 1910 BC

Fortify eArcher. No nearby, safe targets, just an rSpear across the river.
Worker moves SE again, away from Japanese warrior.

The World 1910 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1910BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg



Five warriors gather around Grand River, all on our side of the river.

[I] 7 1870 BC

Worker moves northeast.
Japan will make peace for 30 of our 30 gold.
All of those warriors are regular.
We'll count their corpses.

The World 1870 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1870BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg




No attacks! Units move around but ignore us.

[I] 8 1830 BC

Seven Japanese units around Grand River. Five rWarriors, 1 cWarrior and 1 rSpear.
And even with six warriors, two of them are across the river.

Worker NE.

The World 1830 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1830BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg



The warriors head south, I think trying to capture our worker. Unless there is a barbarian encampment in the fog.

[I] 9 1790 BC

Grand River grows to size 5, Masonry in 3 turns.

Worker NE.

The World 1790 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1790BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg




Our worker was captured.

[I] 10 1750 BC

Grand River decreases to size 4. Masonry now in 4 turns.

The World 1750 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1750BC_TheWorldTrimmed.jpg



[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_1750BC.SAV).

Normally I don't do screen shots of the world each turn, but here each turn could have been the last turn, so I did.

And in 1870 BC, I thought the world was going to end. Five warriors were crowded around our second and last city, with only three defenders inside. It was looking a bit grim. Maybe, just maybe, asking about peace kept Japan from attacking. Doubtful, I will admit.

Looking back, I should have moved the worker east instead of northeast in 1790. That would have put the worker inside Japanese territory for a turn or so, but we might have been able to keep the worker. Well, keep it for a few more turns, anyway.

Now What?
Do we want to change how we play this game? If we continue at war with Japan, it looks like we'll be part of the history books.

Or we could modify our rules a bit. Allow one twenty turn peace treaty with Japan, and then we declare war again and proceed as we had planned.

Or, we could just roll a new start and begin SM4a or have a new thread for SM5.

Smart, I'll follow your lead, whatever you decide to do.

Ouch. I think meeting our first civ in 2550 BC was just too much.

this game was suppsed to be on a huge map, thus you don't expect to meet the first opponent that fast...reroll the game

Do we want to change how we play this game? If we continue at war with Japan, it looks like we'll be part of the history books.
Or, we could just roll a new start and begin SM4a or have a new thread for SM5.
Yes, with loss of capital and big deity civ around us on huge map - winning is impossible... New thread isn't needed, also we already have second start on page 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4973369&postcount=36), lets try it.
Who want to play first 20 turns?

I'll give it a try tonight and post the save. After reading commando Bob's post, the only thing I can think of is that maybe if you could've whipped that spear in niagra falls to have when they sent their stack across the river that may have made a huge difference instead of having all warriors.

4000BC – Settle Salamanca, MM laborer to work the wheat instead of forest, start warrior, research 100% at BW

3950BC – Irrigate wheat, warrior in 4, growth in 6, BW in 49

3900BC – zzzzz

3850BC – zzzz, warrior in 2, growth in 4, BW in 47

3800BC – zzzz

3750BC – worker finishes irrigating, begins road. Fortify warrior, start on second warrior complete in 5, growth in 1.

3700BC – Salamanca grows, warrior in 2, growth in 7 after switching laborer to second wheat. BW in 44.

3650BC – zzzzz

3600BC – Second warrior done, start on 3rd warrior to send with settler. Worker finishes road move worker to second wheat. Warrior in 4, growth in 3. BW in 34.

3550BC – start roading the second wheat to get commerce for BW. Warrior in 3 growth in 2. Warrior will complete in 2 with the jump in pop.

3500BC – Borders Expand, looks OK. Change laborer back to second wheat since it changed to forest on the expansion. No interest popping that goody hut at this point.

3450BC – Third warrior complete, growth in 7, warrior in 2, BW in 26

3400BC – Worker completes road, starts irrigation. BW drops to 21

3350BC – 4th warrior complete, Contact with France. Growth in 5, settler in 6. BW in 18(not sure how it went down 3 turns) at -1 gpt. France has BW and Masonry, won’t trade either for our 10 gold. Declare war.

3300BC – French warrior fortifies where the goody hut was, probably waiting for reinforcements, this is going to be interesting. Keep science at 100% at -1 gpt in 17 instead of 90% and 20. We’re going to need spearmen asap. Growth in 4 settler in 5.

3250BC – no changes, growth in 3, settler in 4.

3200BC – worker finishes irrigation, growth in 1, settler in 3. Move worker to start road to second city on top of hill. Hopefully this can be a good leader factory. move two warriors out of Niagra Falls to cover the worker

3150BC – Salamanca grows to size 4, worker starts road along river. Growth in 7, settler in 2. Fortify both warriors on worker. Luxuries to 10%, science down to 80%. BW in 16, 0 gpt, 6 gold.

3100BC – no changes

3050BC – two French warriors come into view on top of the hill next to where I was going to put the second city (1 regular, 1 vet). Fortify settler in Niagra Falls till the road is done next turn. Growth in 4, warrior in 3. BW in 17 at -1 gpt, 0% luxury.

3000BC – 5 rwarriors come onto the hill. Not twenty turns into the game we have 8 french warriors within our capital borders. I moved the worker down to start a road down to the furs and the other spot I think we should settle. There is a settler in Niagra Falls, maybe start it down towards the fur city instead of the hill.

I was going to build a granary before the settler or 3rd and 4th warrior, I’m glad I didn’t. I wanted to build a settler instead of the 4th warrior but it was one turn before growth so we're over the unit limit now, we need to get that second city founded.

How do I put the screen shots directly into the text? I just attached them at the end since I couldn't figure out how to do it.

Here's the save...

3350BC – 4th warrior complete, Contact with France. Growth in 5, settler in 6. BW in 18(not sure how it went down 3 turns) at -1 gpt. France has BW and Masonry, won’t trade either for our 10 gold. Declare war.
Wow. This early contact is just insane.

How do I put the screen shots directly into the text? I just attached them at the end since I couldn't figure out how to do it.
I use Photobucket to host my pictures. It is a free signup.

(Nitty gritty details - feel free to ignore)
After I get my images like I want them on the PC (resized, text and dots and whatnot added) I upload them to Photobucket. Photobucket generates the IMAGE tags we use here on the forum to indicate images. I just copy and paste their generated tags into my post (well, actually, into Notepad first and then I copy Notepad into the post).

Photobucket and ImageShack were/are forum recommended places to host images. Don't know why I selected Photobucket; maybe 'cos I worked at Radio Shack at one time and didn't like the name association. Anyway, you can have subdirectories of images at Photobucket, which I use to keep my images separated by SG/thread.

I'll give it a try tonight and post the save. After reading commando Bob's post, the only thing I can think of is that maybe if you could've whipped that spear in niagra falls to have when they sent their stack across the river that may have made a huge difference instead of having all warriors.
Good point.

I don't often use whipping, and so I didn't think about until after the attack on Niagara Falls.

Oh, again early contact... France isn't so bad - it's not militaristic civ and they have no techs that lets them start with archers or spears. But will we be able to survive on this kind of start? :eek:

BW in 18(not sure how it went down 3 turns) at -1 gpt. France has BW and Masonry, won’t trade either for our 10 gold.
It's because they have this tech too and now it will not be a monopoly tech. In this case tech value is decreased.

Also, at the start food worth much more then commerce or shields, so it's better to irrigate food bonuces before roading them :)

Adz, why was the city sometimes called Salamanca and sometimes called Niagara Falls? ;) Yes, contact that soon is freaky. Someone should run the summary replay of the first game to see how close exactly Japan was. If this one also fails, do it again!

Are we going to continue this game on current start? If so, Cyllus is UP
Else I'll roll new start and play first 30 turns to see if it worth playing.

Well I'll play my turn set right now and we'll see what happens.

Preturn: ok there are EIGHT French warriors approaching… 7 regular, 1 vet. May as well roll now Smart... :scared:

1 – 2950 B.C. – France is willing to negotiate… obviously they don’t understand what our variance is, idiots. Worker starts road toward new city location.

IBT Vet French warrior attacks, wins, and promotes to Elite, regular attacks and loses. 3 Incan warriors come into view! Doesn’t help for alliance but we’ll see what he has for techs.
Hurray Incas :cheers:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_2_Inca_into_view_.JPG

2 – 2900 B.C. – We get some magnificent stairs added to our Palace… That should help! :twitch:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_1_Palace_.JPG
Inca knows BW/Masonry/CB. Trade alpha for BW/Masonry and 10gs.
Salmanca Warrior>warrior for now.
Science to WC in 29
Attack French stack, takes 2 of ours to kill their Elite, no promotion. Up lux slider in case we are left with 1 MP.

IBT OK are you listening? Stack of 6 regulars attack, plus 1 more regular from across the river… We fully survive :spear: and now have 2 warrior Elites and 1 Regular.
French Free Picture
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_3_French_free_zone_.JPG

3 – 2850 B.C. – Switch Salmanca to barracks.

IBT nothing

4 – 2800 B.C. – road finishes, start irrigation. Move Settler and Elite Warrior to new home.

IBT Zulu warrior comes into the picture.

5 – 2750 B.C. – Build Niagara Falls, start Warrior. (learn that it’s spelled Niagara and not Niagra, fantastic). Trade Masonry and Alpha to Zulu for WC, CB, and 35g. Inca has nothing for us to trade WC for.
Debate Writing or Math. IW and the Wheel could be a waste of time if we have no horses or iron. So do we want cats or alliances… I reluctantly go with writing in 50 no matter how you cut it.

IBT nothing

6 – 2710 B.C . - nothing

IBT 3 French regular warriors come into view.

7 – 2670 B.C. - Salmanca grows, up lux slider. Irrigation for Niagra finished move worker to furs across river. Still see no need to whip, we may even get another Settler out of here eventually :drool:

IBT French move in closer

8 – 2590 B.C. – Salmanca Barracks>Arhcer, Niagara Warrior>Barracks. Bring Elite Warrior from Niagara to Salmanca. Sure am glad that even on Diety the AI seem stupid when it comes to battle.
Kill one of the regulars with elite leaving one still in the forest. start road on furs, due in 6.

IBT 2 more French warriors come into view, 1 reg and 1 elite.

9 – 2550 leave 2 warriors alone in the forest since one fortified the turn before.

IBT 1 reg war attacks and loses to our elite.

10 – nothing. Vet Archer due in 1.

Our Glorious Civilization
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_4_final_pic_.JPG

We have way too much money but nothing to spend it on
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_5_We_re_rich_.JPG

The Inca and Zulu roll through the corners of our view in stacks of 5 warriors, then return promoted. I hoped someone was warring with France but it's probably just barbs :( Zulu won't part with the Wheel for our cash, Inca doesn't know it yet. Another city or 2 on these rivers and we may be able to go on the offensive if France doesn't start a dogpile by then :vomit:

The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smarts_War_Cyllus_2510_BC.SAV

Good turnset, nice result :goodjob:
Got it.

Btw, it's better to chop forest first, and only then road it, because by roading forest worker will waste 2 more turns :)

Pre-turn: we have so much gold and we are doing lone-scientist research? :eek: Set up science to 90%, with next city research time will be dropped.
MM in Salamanca - one irrigated tile wasn't used...
Switched archer to spear - we need some defence against those warriors.

IBT: Salamanca Spear -> Archer

Turn 1 - 2470 BC: Nothing...

IBT: Spear wins against elite warrior, 1 hp left. Our elite warrior defeats regular warrior.

Turn 2 - 2430 BC: Salamanca has grown and as I said Writing was dropped to 37 turns.

Turn 3 - 2390 BC: Forgot to launch CA2, riot in Salamanca :blush:
Lux slider to 20%.

Turn 4 - 2350 BC: Lux is connected, lux slider goes back to 10%
If I will chop that forest now, it would be wasted, because barraks will be ready in 4 turns anyway. Moved worker to plains for irrigation.

IBT: Salamanca Archer -> Settler

Turn 5 - 2310 BC: Sent reg warrior to explore hills, maybe there we will settle our third city.

IBT: There are big stacks of Incan warriors around us and France doesn't send units anymore, looks like they are at war with somebody else too.

Turn 6 - 2270 BC: Warrior has found red borders near that hill.

Turn 7 - 2230 BC: Nothing...

IBT: French warrior attacked our warrior on hill, we won and warrior was promoted to veteran.
Niagara Falls Barracs -> Archer

Turn 8 - 2190 BC: Moved warrior and now I see Tours - french town with one citizen. I hope it will be ours soon :p

IBT: Salamanca Settler -> Granary

Turn 9 - 2150 BC: Killed warrior with an archer. Moved settler and spear in direction to french hills. We can settle N or NE from where the spear stays.
Somebody played 11 turns before me and this is turn 40 in the game, so I'll stop here.


Map:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6905/sm42150bc8tg.jpg


Roster:

Smart - just played
ThERat - UP
TimBentley - on deck
CommandoBob
adz106
Cyllus


Save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/72619/SM4_2150BC.SAV

ok got it, will play now..playing while having a flu should be even better :lol:

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/SM4_1750BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
I think we should go after France before building a granary, we can do that later
lux down to 0%, science to 100%

1.2110BC
capital grows and research drops to 27 turns

2.2070BC
found Grand River, starts a wall

3.2030BC
French spear comes closer, but this is no threat really

4.1990BC
we get 2 more archers, go for spear and worker, we need more of those

5.1950BC
Zulu have writing now, it's usually better at this level to do pointy stick research and trade with extra money

6.1910BC
we get a worker, another archer is needed

IT we defeat an archer that attacks our warrior out of Lyons

7.1870BC
duh, Inca also have writing now

8.1830BC
decide to attack Lyons, defeat 2 spears and autoraze the city to weaken the French
lose an archer against a reg spear on flat

IT we defeat an archer with ours that promotes elite
Incas start Zeus, so there is some ivory around

9.1790AD
pull back our archers

10.1750AD
get another archer, start settler
warrior covers furs...we have another 10 turns for writing..IMHO we should do min research and go for trades
we should go for iron, as we have plenty of hills around

next player watch out, there are some archers north of Grand River (which can't be seen now)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/smart1750.jpg

Got it. Should play tonight I think.

Don't forget to put in another road on the plains south of the river (1SW of the worker). You don't want to have a river crossing slowing down your movement. Other than that, good use of territory to put the hurt on Joan. :thumbsup:

I think a road north of the river would be more useful.

Tim's absolutely correct. A southern riverside road still entails a river crossing going from Salamance to Grand River. I didn't take the time to see that. I was mostly considering keeping the worker out of harm's way. Go north.

Oh, and kill Joan, too. :hammer:

Hey were the Brown dudes in Cyllus's set the Inca? And who were the "red" border in Smart's set?

And who were the "red" border in Smart's set?
It was french town, which is razed now :)

Then why did you say Red, and not Pink?

The Incan were green I thought, could have been brown I guess (I use the colorblind settings usually, some of these coors are close to each other, maybe it's not turned on). Yeah I should have chopped before roading, no excuse for that. Why did we road the other side of that river? We'll need to get support to Grand River in one turn, although it seems we're almost on the offensive already :devil:

Inca are normally Pink, with their secondary color being Purple. However, the French have Pink and you guys have Purple. So they have to pick a new color, starting from the top of the list in the editor and going down. Obviously, White (at the top) is taken by barbs. Going down the list: Red-Orange-Yellow-Green-Light Blue-Blue-Pink-Purple-Brown. You already know, of course, about the Pink and Purple civs. Also, you've seen the Zulu, who are Yellow, unless Egypt/Mongols are in game, in which case they are Black. So what color were the Zulu?

So what color were the Zulu?
Yellow.

1750(0): I could do this later, but MM Salamanca for an extra shield (in retrospect, I think the spearman and/or barb messed things up so there were too many shields)

IBT: Zulu start Pyramids
Barb horses from the west, French archers from the north

1725(1): warrior has to cover worker from spearman

IBT: One barb heads to a wheat, the other runs away
Niagara spear->archer

1700(2): warrior kills barb horse
archer doesn't even manage to harm spear
archer kills archer

IBT: archer dies attacking Grand River
Indian warriors walk into view

1675(3): India is up the wheel, IW, myst, and math

IBT: archer dies attacking Grand River
spear pillages road
Salamanca settler->archer
Tiwanaku (Inca) builds colossus

1650(4): India now has 360g and learned writing
lose archer, kill archer by Grand River

IBT: Grand River rax->spear
France, Inca start ToA

1625(5): moving the warrior/worker team to a new tile was a mistake, as an improved tile can be pillaged :sad:

IBT: It was indeed pillaged
4 archers heading towards Grand River
Niagara archer->archer
India starts ToA

1600(6): Found Allegheny in the southwest by deer, spot a cow and coast, start on rax

IBT: Inca demand 22g, I give in
Zimbabwe builds Pyramids
Inca, India start ToA

1575(7): zzz

IBT: spear in Grand River kills 3 archers
Salamanca archer->archer

1550(8): zzz

IBT: another archer dies attacking Grand River
learn writing

1525(9): the fastest unknown tech would be philosophy in 20 turns, that won't help; go for lit at min
kill last archer by Grand River

IBT: Niagara archer->worker (I finally feel secure with our military)
Grand River spear->archer

1500(10): With Salamanca's expanded borders, I see an ivory to the northwest

Notes: Those spearmen are annoying, especially since the RNG was slightly unfavorable. If you move the warrior from the furs back into Niagara so lux can go to 0%, the spears will probably head south again
I see a brown border to the west

Just looking at the log and the screen shot, getting a feel for what needs to be done.

Two Pink Units, one of them a Spear, 1SW of Grand River. These need to go away. Hopefully they will attack and die.

The vArcher 1NE of Salamanca is protecting a worker, yes?

Need to move the rWarrior 1SE of Niagara Falls back into the city, to keep the people under control.

Worker needs to connect Allegheny, then irrigate (to make use of the connected furs when the city grows to size 2).

Need to reconnect Grand River with Salamanca.

After Salamanca builds the rArcher, start a settler and build 2NE-1E from Salamanca. The settler build would start at size 4 and might go to size 6. This city site is on a plains tile, with the Ivory 1N of it. Would have the worker from Niagara Falls build a road for the settler to walk on, unless Grand River has not been reconnected, which is the higher priority.

Build barracks in Niagara Falls after the worker? Or a library prebuild? With two barracks, I think we only want to build vUnits from now on, unless we want some Scouting Warriors.

I will try to play tonight.

Is it too soon to get the Gray and the Yellow to dogpile on France?

Two Pink Units, one of them a Spear, 1SW of Grand River. These need to go away. Hopefully they will attack and die.
Both spears, actually.

The vArcher 1NE of Salamanca is protecting a worker, yes?
Yes. I don't remember whether it started roading yet.

Build barracks in Niagara Falls after the worker?
Niagara already has a barracks.

Is it too soon to get the Gray and the Yellow to dogpile on France?
I think MAs probably would cost too much at this time, especially since we need embassies first.

Wake rWarrior 1SE of Niagara Falls and move into the city.
Drop luxury slider to 0%, now +18 gpt.

We have met France (war) and Zulu, India and Inca.

Worker 1NE of Salamanca is building a road, completes in 2 turns.

Hit Enter.

Pink and then Brown units come out of the fog between Grand River and Avignon.
French Spears head south.
French Archers move 1N of Grand River.

Salamanca vArcher -> settler, 5 turns.

[I] 1 1475 BC

Pink guys are Arabs.
Brown guys are Inca.

Talk to the Grand Caliph. He has 193 gold and knows The Wheel, Iron Working, Mysticism and Mathematics. So does everybody else.
We have 67 gold.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we win (1 of 1).

Worker roads between Allegheny and Salamanca.


Arabs and Incas move into fog.

French Spears head south again.
French rArcher moves onto the hill 1NE of Grand River.
French rArcher 1N of Grand River does not attack or move.

Niagara Falls worker -> vSpear, 4 turns.

[I] 2 1450 BC

Could attack French units from Grand River, but would rather have them attack us. We are on a hill. They are two units in two different tiles. Don't think we could win both battles, in a forest and on a hill.
Begin to irrigate the new road.
New worker heads north.


Both French rArchers move to the hill 1NW of Grand River.
French Spears leave our lands.
Incas have learned Map Making.
Arabs come into view again, heading norht out of the fog.

[I] 3 1425 BC

Salamaca grows to five, raise the happy slider to 10% to keep the city quiet.
Wake eWarrior SE of the capital and move north across the river, to join the worker and vArcher, planning to attack the French Archers in open ground.


Incas have begun The Great Lighthouse.
More Arabs are visible in the east.

A French Archer attacks Grand River and dies (2 of 2).
The French Spears move onto the Fur at Niagara Falls.

Allegheny is connected.

[I] 4 1400 BC

Shuffle a vArcher to Niagara Falls.
French Spears are across the river and our only attacker is an rWarrior.
Hate not being able to attack with good odds.
I expect them to pillage our furs, though they could just be moving west through our territory.


One French Spear pillages the furs and Salamanca shuts down. Hire a geek for one turn. Other cities are okay.
Second French Spear moves 1SW onto improved plains, still across the river.

Grand River vArcher -> vArcher, 5 turns.

Zulu are building The Temple of Artemis.

[I] 5 1375 BC

Raise the happy slider to 20%, fire the geek. When Salamaca is restored to order it should complete the settler.
Niagara Falls vSpear -> vArcher, still 2 turns.

Everyone knows Map Making.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we are redlined but win (3 of 3).
North side is clear of any Frenchies.
Shuffle a second vArcher to Niagara Falls.

In Niagara Falls we have a vArcher and a rWarrior that can attack the rSpear across the river.
Checked the Civopedia; rivers do NOT give a defensive bonus.

vArcher vs. rSpear, Spear wins and promotes (3 of 4).
If the Spear were redlined I would attack with the Warrior, but to do so now is suicide.
Move rWarrior onto improved plains SW of Niagara Falls and fortify.

Spot a greyish-blue border to our southeast.


Salamanca settler -> vArcher, 4 turns. Salmanca grows to size 4 in 4 turns, also.
Niagara Falls vArcher -> worker, 2 turns.

Zulus are building The Great Lighthouse.

French rArchers appear, one north of Grand River near the ruins and the other east of Grand River, coming from Avignon.
Wounded French Spear heads home but the other Spear takes his place, 1S of Niagara Falls.

[I] 6 1350 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rSpear, Spear wins (3 of 5).
vArcher vs. French rSpear 1/3, Archer wins (4 of 6).

Move the rWarrior 1SW of Niagara Falls SE to join the victorious and wounded Archer.
Wake vWarrior in Grand River to protect our worker. This leaves 5 units in Grand River, 2 Spears and 3 Archers.

Niagara Falls has only 1 MP, so leave lux slider at 20%.

Have an Archer exploring north, see 3 Ivory.


India tresspasses from the west with 4 rWarriors, all around Allegheny.
Up north, near the Ivory, both Inca and French settler pairs show up.
French Archers move adjacent to Grand River, 1N and 1NE.

[I] 7 1325 BC

Move settler to city location, 3NE of Salamanca, which is 1S of an Ivory.
Wake the vSpear in Salamanca and move to join the settler.
Worker irrigates the plain behind the settler (2NE of Salamanca).
Move eWarrior from Salamanca to Allegheny.
Move vWarrior into Salamanca (the one protecting the worker NE of the city).

Up north our exploring Archer has a problem. Attacking the French settler pair is very attractive, except that the other two attacks on French Spears have resulted in 1 win and 2 losses. We would capture two slaves if we won, but a French Archer is also on hand and would surely attack us on the IBT.
I think I'll let the Incas and the French sort this out on their own.
North vArcher moves 1S towards the new city.

Wake vSpear in NF and send to Salamanca.
Move Spear and Warrior back into NF.
Drop lux slider to 10% and all is well.



Indian warriors bypass Allegheny, seem interested in our unprotected worker next to Allegheny.
French Archer from the north moves towards the unprotected irrigating worker near our new city.
French Archers near Grand River bypass the city, heading towards our now unprotected irrigating worker.

Two French rArchers and one rWarrior appear 2N of Grand River.

France builds Dijon north of our new city, yet unbuilt. We can still build, but the Incas lost out.
Niagara Falls worker -> vSpear, 4 turns.

Incas are building the Mausoleum of Mausollos.
Incas learned Philosophy (MapStat) and sold it to the Zulus. The Zulus were the richest, now the Incas are. We are the second richest.

[I] 8 1300 BC

Plains irrigated next to Allegheny. Move that worker to the forest 1N of Salamanca. Will either road or chop this forest.
Build Ivory City 3NE of Salamanca, grows in 20, walls in 7.

Minor Skirmishes
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die, putting 1HP on the Frechie (4 of 7).
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die again (!) and do just as much damage (4 of 8).
vArcher vs. French rArcher, we die again (!!) and this time we redline the Frenchie just before it promotes to Elite. (4 of 9).
eArcher vs. French rArcher 2/3, we are redlined but win (5 of 10).

Wanted to kill the French Archers on the hill before they could get to our worker. Lost two Archers instead for one dead and one wounded Frenchies.
Move vSpear out of Grand River to protect the worker. With no easy prey, the lone French Archer should retreat northward and away.

Fortify units in cities. Leave new worker in Niagara Falls unmoved.

[IBT]

Call it quits at this point.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_1300BC.SAV).

Our World 1300 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/1300BC_TheWorldTrimmedDotted.jpg

With Indians in our interior and the French coming on strong, and having lost four archers (we have two left), I thought it was time to pass the game on.

I am tempted to ignore the Indians and I might if there were only one or two units marching through our lands. But there are four Warriors near Allegheny and they seemed to be interested in our worker. That worker is now rather far away but the Indian warriors are still next to Allegheny (they have not had a chance to move). They could attack.

The Indian issue and the Archer losses are what caused me to end the turns early. Either I just had bad RNG or combat at Diety is different from the lower levels. We can dance around the French; I am not too worried about them, though we need to attack soon.

Random Notes and Thoughts
The worker in the forest north of Salamanca I had planned to make a road in the forest or else chop the forest and then make the road. This will make east-west movement a bit faster since we can bypass Salamanca when going from Ivory City to Grand Rapids.

I considered waking the worker next to Grand Rapids and have him join to Salamanca but decided against that. Seemed to be a bit too desperate for the times. Irrigation completes in 2.

I did not move the new worker in Niagara Falls. Don't want him to be a draw to the French spear nearby or the Indian warriors. His best move could be to the forest between Salamanca and NF.

Allegheny completes barracks this IBT.

NF is building a spear just for defense. Salamanca and Grand Rapids are building vArchers, both due in 2.

Ivory City is building walls for the extra defense. May not be the best build. Feel free to change it. Barracks takes 14 turns; an rSpear takes 7 turns.

I believe you are having a case of BRNGL: Bad Random Number Generator Luck. Welcome to the club, Commando Bob! :( :rolleyes:

I believe you are having a case of BRNGL: Bad Random Number Generator Luck. Welcome to the club, Commando Bob! :( :rolleyes:
Well, BRNGL, a surprise move by the Indians and it being my first Diety C3C game all conspired together to scare me into stopping at 8 turns. It seemed our position was worse at the end of eight turns than before we started. I didn't want to play two more turns and have things degrade even more.

(Well, okay, maybe I listened too much to my own fears. :D I'll get over it. Just didn't want to ruin the game, which seemed very possible after turn 8.)

The Indians may just be wandering about going barb hunting.

A unit with attack 3 would be nice and avoid losing to spears (CommandoBob actually had better luck against them than I did). However, iron working would cost 161g and 12gpt (377g assuming 1gpt=18g) and we may not have any iron. The wheel would cost 159g and 6gpt(267g), and I estimate that horseback riding would cost 293g (That's assuming a resource increases the price the same as on regent, since I haven't done any difficulty testing. I'm pretty sure a UU wouldn't be worth more than a normal unit.).

I agree about India - on Deity most of civs will walk through your territory without fear, because they have big advantage at the start. Four warriors won't declare war probably, but we can move one spear to Allegheny, this will turn their chances to zero.

With all those hills around, chances for iron are really high, for UU we would need two techs instead of one... Also we aren't ready for GA, but if things are realy worst then we may trigger it even now...
We can take that french town near Ivory City if we have some free archers, but I didn't looked at the save yet... Also, what about sending 1-2 reg warriors for exploring? There are many unmet civs and if we will be boxed by our rivals, it would be hard to find them...

I'll play 12 turns and post later tonight. Gotta love the RNG.

Turns 68-79

1300BC – switch Ivory City to a rax, Grand River to walls. We’re going to have to lay low with a good defensive position till we can build up an offense again. Worker in NF 1 NW to irrigate.

IBT – French spearmen heals and moves onto irrigation SW of NF. 1 warrior and two archers move next to grand river.

1275 BC – Allegheny rax > archer, attack with archer in NF and win (1 hp left). Fortify redlined elite archer in GR, move regular spearmen off of worker into GR and also fortify.

Move worker near Salamanca west, other worker starts irrigation.

IBT – Zulu are building the great wall, Cuzco complete ToA, Bombay completes the great lighthouse….Both regular archers lose to our elite spear, warrior fortifies.

1250 BC– GR completes walls > archer, Salamanca archer > Settler. Worker finishes irrigation for GR moves SW to start a road to the next city, other worker starts irrigation for Salamanca. Take out rarcher near Ivory City with varcher from Salamanca. MM tiles so that Salamanca is growth in 5, settler in 5. (French losses so far 4, Iroquois 0)

IBT – rwarrior loses to our elite spear, Zulu and Inca are building the MM, Inca are building the GW (losses 5-0)

1225 BC – archer out of woods into Ivory city, fortify archer in NF. Worker starts road by Salamanca, other worker behind Ivory City to chop for rax.

IBT – rarcher loses our espearmen (6-0)

1200 BC – NF spearmen >archer, fortify wounded archer in Ivory City. Worker starts chopping forest move spearmen to new city location.

IBT – Inca complete SoZ, rarcher loses to our espear (7-0)

1175 BC – worker finishes irrigation for NF, starts road.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear (8-0)

1150 BC – GR archer > archer, worker finishes irrigation for Salamanca, starts road. Other worker moves SW to put a road down to the new city.

IBT – racher loses to espear, rarcher loses to vspear. (10-0) Zulu are now building the GW also. Zimbabwe completes the MM.

1125 BC – Salamanca settler > archer. We can buy IW from the zulu for 8gpt and 275g. I decide to wait since France is putting little heat on us at the moment.

IBT – worker hacks forest by Ivory City, two rarchers lose to espear without taking a single hit point off of it. (12-0)

1100 BC – NF archer > spear, Allegheny archer > archer. Worker by IC irrigates, both archers move to Salamanca. Worker by NF moves onto furs to chop forest.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear (13-0)

1075BC – one archer moves toward new city for more security, other fortifies in Salamanca so it can go to IC or GR if needed. Worker by Salamanca moves to Allegheny to chop forest. Begin chopping fur forest.

IBT – rarcher loses to espear, rarcher loses to vspear (15-0)

1050 BC – Grand River archer > archer, Ivory City rax > archer. Fortify archer in GR, chop forest by Allegheny. Worker finishes road to new city, starts irrigation. Oil Springs founded.

IBT – no attacks although several rarchers are approaching GR.

1025 BC – Salamanca grows….

IBT – the archers now look like they’ve had enough of our espear and are moving along the hilltops without attacking. We’ll need to come up with a strategy to handle that but we have enough military to do it.

1000 BC – NF spear >archer and end of my turn.

Current military stats

Spearmen – 6 (1 elite, 5 veterans)
Archers – 7 (1 elite, 6 regulars)
Warriors – 4 (2 elite, 1 vet, 1 reg)
Workers – 4

Here’s the screenshot of the last turn and the save. Workers will be done hacking forest in 1 and 2 turns. I think we should try to put another city by the coast before someone else does or move toward the French and put one right by that lake. We could use some more workers as well.

I should've built another archer in Salamanca before setting it to another settler but I screwed up. It can still be changed without much loss I'll leave that up to who's next. We're definitely going to need more cities if we're going to have enough power to go on the offensive.

excellent turns and kill ratio (it's not even a ratio). If we manage to get an army, we should be able to attack. I would buy iron sooner or later, we need it

We can buy IW from the zulu for 8gpt and 275g.
Last I checked India had a better price (aggression is a larger factor in trading prices than I would have guessed).

I was doing some thinking about what research path we should pursue. I think we may want to reconsider IW and go for wheel/HR. Since all of our cities are on plains an early golden will still double our production I believe. We are a long way off of whatever government we're going for and I think we're essentially wasting a lot of shields dinking around with these archers.

If I'm right we still get the commerce bonus on any tile not next to a river correct?

Also if we wait to long we could lose the advantage of the MW. I feel like we could break this open right now if we started pumping MW's.

First of all, I want to say that it was really good turnset, now there is almost no danger :goodjob:
Since our main military will contain fast moving units with upgrade path MW -> Knight -> Cavalry, IW and swords probably would be a little waste... Of course we can't wait for goverment change, but more cities will increase GA advantage. We already have a good defense, so we can build some settlers before those civs will fill all free land. And yes, commerce on tiles without river and all shields will be doubled even in Despotism.
Buying those techs and triggering GA sounds like a good plan, during those 20 turns we will be able to cripple France.

Aighty then, "got it", can play tonight.

I take it we're 1. defending
2. expanding
3. trying to get Mounted Warriors?

Should we soon be using pointy stick research also? How else are we going to catch up in this thing. We'd need to go to war with another civ that we could sign peace with before finishing off France right? *boggle* Can we even finish France off in time that we don't declar on Inca and face muskets :lol:

About the government changes, if I may eavesdrop and give an opinion, don't hurry it too much, count unit supports before you go for it and make sure it will not hurt your military production. Prepare for increasing unit costs because your military will grow faster than your empire.

On a mid-long term run, if you make core cities into larger, more knight-able manufactures, make sure you "pass the puck" of settler making status since having a settler pump will give you much more unit support - and economy overall - than a size 7+ city. Balancing both of those will be crucial for your long-term research and trade potential. Making settlers at the odd occasion when cities grow will not be good enough.

X-post: pointy stick research requires peace talks, which can only be achieved in this variant if you declare war to another front, and this is not an option when defending is still #1 on the list ;)

Well after you get past the must-be-in-defense mode, fight a short war against one of the other AI, collect tech for peace.

Only had a chance to look at the save, the wrold is up Philo on Inda and will trade it to us. Going to try to get The Wheel/HBR/and Philo firs thing. Will ge to this tonight for sure. Last night I had to go out late (ok I didn't *have* to...). My better half wants to watch a movie :sleep: Hopefully it doen't suck. Will get to this afterwards.

While you're at it, look at the save in n's SG! :sheep: [pimp]

:lol: Will do Chox.

Only had a chance to look at the save, the wrold is up Philo on Inda and will trade it to us. Going to try to get The Wheel/HBR/and Philo firs thing. Will ge to this tonight for sure. Last night I had to go out late (ok I didn't *have* to...). My better half wants to watch a movie :sleep: Hopefully it doen't suck. Will get to this afterwards.

I looked at save, India doesn't have Philosophy, so we may trade it first, and then offer it to India for The Wheel and maybe other techs. Reselling techs is the key for scientific lead at this difficulty level.

Preturn:
Trades and Techs: If we don’t take advantage of MWs now, when will we?
Notice we are behind Every visible tech besides Lit which we have due in 29 (19 at 100% research, too long). Inca is the only civ with CoL and we can’t afford it.
Inca, Zulu, and Persia, are up Philo and CoL on India
Purchase Philo from Zulu for 386g and 2gpt.
Purchase The Wheel and 2g from India for 15gpt
We do have Horses between Oil Springs and Salmanca.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Horses.JPG
Trade Philo and 2gpt to India for HBR and 3g
Our Treasury before trades 387g 19gpt, and now 6g +1gpt
End result, Philo, Wheel, HBR for 381g and 18gpt. Hope I did the right thing, what else to do with this money :)
France does not have HBR or Math

Notes:
Strange, we are UP writing on France… Enough ogling, nothing we can do to take advantage of this.
Oil Springs is right up against the Indian border. Horses are in Oil Springs immediate borders. Only having read and not played Diety level games I take it this will eventually flip, maybe pointy stick research award goes to India? (they have 14 cities).
France has 13 cities remaining.

Wake Grand River E-Archer and kill French R-Archer in a 2 stack. (1-0)
Change Salmanca to MW in 1. Settler was due in 2, growth in 7
Change Niagara Falls to Settler, grows in 5 due in 5.
Change Grand River to MW.
HIT ENTER

IBT
France requests an audience, they just keep doing that!?
India started MoM of course

1 – 975 B.C.
Salmanca MW->MW
Allegheny Archer->MW
Attack another 2 stack of French R-Archers with our Elite and win (2-0)
Chop gives Niagra shields, Settler now in 3, growth in 3
Attack 2 stack of R-Archer with V-Archer, win (3-0)

IBT
France is coming hard with Archers

2 – 950 B.C.
Attack 3 stack R-Archer with V-Archer and win (4-0)
Attack solo R-Archer with E-Warrior and win (5-0)

IBT
Two R-Archers attack Grand river and lose to E-spear (7-0)
Notice French Archer been fortified in Incan land to heal up (does this mean ROP? I really don’t know, would assume yes)

3 – 925 B.C.
Attack 2 stack R-Archer with V-Archer and win (8-0)
Mm some due builds to net +4gpt for a turn

IBT
R-Archer attacks Grand River and loses to E-Spear… now known as BIFF
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Biff_is_Born.JPG

4 – 900 B.C.
Niagra Falls Settler->MW
Grand River MW->MW
Bring GL to Salmanca to make an army, only 2 MW atm to put in it. 2 more due in 2 turns. I could mm Salmanca to get it in 1 but we would run at –gpt so I don’t.
Attack R-Archer with V-Archer and lose (8-1) then finish him off with E-Archer (9-1)

IBT
Zulu attacks Inca!
BEFORE
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Zulu_war_Inca.JPG
AFTER
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Zulu_war_Inca_2.JPG

5 – 875 B.C.
Attack 2 stack R-Archer with V-Archer and win (10-1)
Take a 2 stack R-Archers out with E-Archer and V-Archer (12-1)
Move settler to Ivory city. Going to attack Dijon first in stead of Avignon. The French just come too fierce with Archers to extend our army that far yet.
This game is too much for my feeble brain… Too much to think about :eek:
Mm build that are due next turn for gpt again

IBT
Zulu moving in force across us toward Inca

6 – 850 B.C.
Salmanca MW->MW
Allegheny MW->MW
Ivory City Archer->Spear
Kill R-Archer with V-Archer (13-1)

IBT
Zulu completes Great Wall

7 – 825 B.C.
Attack Dijon with Army and of course
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Golden_Age.JPG
Raze Dijon (16-1)
Kill R-Archer with V-Archer (17-1)
Move Settler toward new home with escorts.

IBT
People want to build Heroic Epic… Want Want Want! It’s all they do is Want!
Inca hooks us up
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Incan_Embassy.JPG

8 – 800 B.C.
Actually uneventful.

IBT
Also uneventful

9 – 775 B.C.
Grand River MW->MW
Ivory City Spear->MW
France caught up to the rest of the world in tech, this means cats and horses and a greater need to attack Avignon next for sure (they have horses there)
Settle Flatbush
Clear our lands with the Army and a V-MV (21-1)
Spend 41g on Embassy with India, put it in SPoiler because it's big, and not everyone cares to see em.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Dehli_Embassy.JPG

IBT
Inca Demands our gold lol, all 7 of it. We cave.

10 – 750 B.C.
Salmanca MW->MW
Niagara Falls MW->Worker
Allegheny MW->MW

That’s all Folks!
There’s a Spear near Alegheny, he’s going to Fortify there to free up the Archer or E-Warrior.
You have 8 MW and a MW Army (fortified in Grand River 5/14) to start off, Homeland Security consists of 7 Spears and 7 Archers. There are a couple Warriors, 2 Elite even. They just kind of flounder around. There is a R-Warrior that sat in a town my whole set, really wanted to disband him but I spared his life and deemed him Leach-boy.
17 turns left on GA. Lit in 19 at +28gpt. Tech still cost a bunch, nobody will budge.
Of course we need Settlers and Workers as always.

The Final Pic
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Smart_6_next_final_pic_.JPG

The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/SM4_Cyllus_750_BC.SAV

Side Note about RNG, the way the AI trickles troops in it's quite simple to keep it well in the human's favor. Don't get so down on it :goodjob:

wow, most excellent turn :goodjob:

getting us a few key techs, a MW army, the GA...but where is France???

By the way, once we took out France, who will be the next target? It should be in order how we met them...anyone kept track?

I guess I'm up... I'll try to play today or tomorrow.
Inca was the second civ that we met (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5008273&postcount=86)

France is to our North and Northeast and probably out of room to grow pressed up against the North Shore.

The Hit List:

France (met in 3350 BC) WAR, not dead yet
Incas (met in 2950 BC)
Zulus (met in 2750 BC)
India (met by 1675 BC)
Arabs (met in 1475 BC)

Minimap... :scan:

By the way, are we the only ones having ivory now? If that would be the case, Zeus would be terrific

Probably yes, judging from the fact that 4 ivories are outside ivory city and flatbush.

The Incas built SoZ in 1200 BC in Macchu Picchu (or something like that).

Unfortunately right, Incan Ancient Cavalry taking on Impi all over our lands atm.

Indeed, now that I look:

1200 BC...
IBT – Inca complete SoZ, rarcher loses to our espear (7-0)

Pre-turn: Moved one citizen in Flatbush and in Grand river to grassland for faster growth (1 food per turn is too low). Switched Grand River to settler since it have only 2 improved tiles anyway.

IBT: Arabia declared war on Inca. More Zulu units are coming to our territory...
French archer redlined our MW and it retried.
Oil Springs: Barraks -> MW.

Turn 1 - 730 BC: Attacked 2hp archer on plains with elite archer and... elite archer took only 1 hp from him :mad: [0-1].
Finished that archer with veteran MW [1-1].
Everybody except India are in Middle Ages and their goverment is Monarchy.

IBT: Niagara Falls: Worker -> MW.

Turn 2 - 710 BC: Spearman and 2 archers moved to the hill, I have to attack them since there are 3 workers around.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9269/sm43workersiw2.png

Killed spearman and two archers with army on that hill [4-1]
Attacked archer on other hill and promoted MW to elite [5-1]

IBT: Salamanca: MW -> MW; Grand River: Settler -> MW.

Turn 3 - 690 BC: Disbanded regular warrior in Niagara Falls since it is just a waste of 2 gpt. Also there would be huge waste of shields in that city without 2 shields from disband - now MW will be done in 3 turns instead of 4.
Killed Spearmen on hill with Army, one MW was promoted to elite. Killed 2 more archers with army and veteran MW. One more archer was killed by our archer, and other by MW [10-1]
Moved settler, army and some units to cleared hill, I'm going to attack Avignon and build city there. Three more MW's will be healed in one turn in Grand River.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7881/sm4settlerdq9.png

IBT: Warrior won vs archer, promoted to elite [11-1].
Ivory City and Allegheny: MW -> MW.

Turn 4 - 670 BC:
Killed archer on hill E from stack and moved all units there. I can see 2 french swords... Killed 3 more archers [15-1]

IBT: Arabia wanted 25 gold - Ok... French swordsman killed our spear [15-2]

Turn 5 - 650 BC: MW retried attacking spear. Other MW killed french sword and promoted to elite. Other MW died and redlined french sword [16-3]

IBT: MW and warrior were killed [16-5]. Salamanca, Niagara Falls: MW -> MW.

Turn 6 - 630 BC: Killed spear, 2 archers, sword without any loss [20-5].
There are too much Zulu units in our territory and they are Annoyed - I decided to build embassy in their capital. They are in Golden Age too:

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/1743/sm4zimbabwexj4.jpg

IBT: Lost one MW, Oil Springs have built one more MW [20-6]

Turn 7 - 610 BC: Killed two archers near Flatbush, lost one archer [22-7]. Killed spear and swordsman near Avignon [24-7].
Built new town on hill, fortified Army there for healing.

IBT: Grand River, Allegheny: MW -> MW.

Turn 8 - 590 BC: Lost archer redlining sword [24-8]. Moving some units, in two turns I will be able to attack Avignon.

IBT: Zulu demanded 25 gold. Salamanca and Ivory City have produced MW's.

Turn 9 - 570 BC: Almost nothing...

IBT:: France And Zululand have signed MA against Inca. French Sword killed our archer [24-9]. Our gpt deals expired and now our income is 63 gpt.

Turn 10: Attacking Avignon! Killed 2 swords and 2 spears, and razed the city. We got 3 slaves. I didn't moved other units, next player will be able to do it. We can attack those swords on mountain with army, or move slaves not directly to Great Lake.
With our power and MWs we can start playing offensive :woohoo:


http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/9103/sm4550bczw6.jpg


Save: SM4_550BC.SAV (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/72619/SM4_550BC.SAV)

ok, got it, let's hope we can expand

OMG!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS A LOT OF IMPIS IN ZIMBABWE!!!!!!!!!! :eek:
On a side note, Inca appear to be the Rogue State. The might be destroyed before you kill France. :lol: In which case, you'll have to fight the Zulu... :sad:
On another side note, you should probably send a MW out to explore. That is a very small world map.

played 4 turns last night and 3 this morning...will finish tonight...just a quick update.

Bought lit and traded for 2 more techs hoping to open up some trading opportunities, which never happened. The AI is in the MA and sending maces, defending with pikes :(

However, managed to take 2 French cities and planted another. I will keep the French cities for now, the flip risk is pretty low and maybe we can eliminate them beforehand.

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/SM4_350BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
swap Grand River to settler, we want to grab that dye lux
see that Inca have no lit, get it from India for 10gpt and 130gold
then get mysticism and maths for lit +25gpt

had hoped that someone is down a tech but no :(
spent so much money
defeat 3 swords

IT lose exposed MW to a spear

1.530BC
move towards Cherbourgh

2.510BC
Arabs finish Hanging Gardens, French come with more units, they are no pushover with 12 cities
RnG sems to hate me as we retreat a MW and hen lose another aginst a 2hp spear on flat

3.490BC
the AI continue to lose units against each other and France brings in more stuff, Civs start Sun Tzu, so we have to face pikes soon
take Cherbourgh, but redline army...kill 4 swords that climbed that mountain

4.470BC
avenge a sword that took out a MW, pretty quiet now, army healing

5.450BC
first French mace is sighted
move troops east and heal

6.430BC
move next to Marseilles, on a hill with pikes...

IT Inca's get some break as Arabs sign peace
Zulu finish the GL...

7.410BC
need to increase lux to 10%
take out 3 units and mamange to take Marseilles, keep it for now as to be able to bring back our army.
we snatch slaves as well

IT The war at our doorstep continues
GA is over

8.390BC
found Gimme horses to get us another source
have to attack some more units

9.370BC
nothing much, move units forward, defeat a spear

IT good news as India and inca sign alliance against France

10.350BC
defeat a sword next to Marseilles, move out army and spot Paris
defeat 4 spears there losing no unit and we capture it for now
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/smart350.jpg

we should try and get currency once the other deals expire...

our empire for now
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/smart350b.jpg

I probably won't be able to play before Friday, so if CommandoBob can play by then, I'll take a swap.

Excellent! :goodjob: So many cities were taken and even Paris :eek:

Hmm. If I count right, France started 13 tiles from you.
What are all those Arab warriors doing next to Paris? :shifty:

Got it. Playing now.

350(0): an extra shield in Salamanca for MW in one turn
an extra gold in ivory city

IBT: India, Zulu sign MA against Incas
As in every IBT, Inca and Zulu fight
mace redlines MW on mountain (1-0)
Salamanca MW->MW
Zulu start Leo's

330(1): kill a mace (2-0)

IBT: lose redlined MW on mountain (2-1)
mace retreats MW
Paris flips with 2 units inside
Niagara MW->MW
Great Lake cat->cat
France starts Sun Tzu's

310(2): kill pike to capture (that was a mistake) Paris (3-1)

IBT: Arabia, India sign MA against France
Ivory MW->MW
France starts Sun Tzu's
Ulundi builds Sun Tzu's

290(3): it takes 2 MW to kill a 2hp mace (4-2)
We now have trade routes with India, Zulu, and Arabia
I'd prefer ivory not to be demanded; buy currency from India for ivory, 11gpt, 369g

IBT: Salamanca MW->MW
Cherbourg cat->cat

270(4): kill spear by Marseilles (5-2)

IBT: Arabia, India sign MA against Inca
Allegheny temple->settler
Oil Springs settler->MW

250(5): army kills pike in Rheims losing ~2hp, kills pike going down to 2hp (7-2)

IBT: archer, mace kill MWs, mace retreats MW (7-4)
Niagara MW->MW
Marseilles flips to France

230(6): kill 2 archers, mace (10-4)

IBT: Inca get MGL
archer retreats MW
Salamanca MW->MW
Ivory MW->settler
Great Lake cat->cat

210(7): zzz

IBT: mace dies (11-4)
Paris flips
Flatbush MW->MW
Gimme horses cat->cat
Zulu starts Knights Templar

190(8): Marseilles is now Indian
it takes two MWs to kill spear and raze Paris (12-5), another settler on the way
kill two pikes, spear to raze Rheims (15-5)

IBT: Allegheny settler->MW
Inca start Knights Templar

170(9): kill settler pairs with pike, spear (17-5)

IBT: France, India sign peace
India, Inca sign peace
Salamanca MW->market
Niagara MW->MW

150(10): zzz

Notes: the settler can settle in place or 1 NW I suppose
I've left some military unmoved so you can send them where you wish
Lux tax is actually at 10% as opposed to screenshot

Here is the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/46178/SM4_150BC.SAV).

Just out of curiousity, how many cities do the Inca have left? How many cities does France have left?

Got it for Turnset 12.

Polytheism in 32 turns (8.1.1)
33 gold, +29 gpt

Salamanca (7) grows in 3, market in 10.
Niagara Falls (5) grows in 9, vMounted Warrior (vMW) in 4.
Grand River (3) grows in 7, library in 2.
Allegheny (4) grows in 3, vMW in 5.
Ivory City (6) grows in 6, settler in 1.
Cherbourg (2) grows in 8, catapult in 2.
Oil Springs (3) grows in 9, vMW in 5.
Flatbush (4) grows in 10, vMW in 6.
Gimme horses (2) grows in 8, catapult in 5.
Great Lake of the Fish (4) grows in 1, catapult in 2.

We have two horses.
We have one fur, one dye and one ivory.

Our Amry stands on unconnected furs in no man's land.

We have 10 cities, France has 8.

We can build a city where the settler stands, 2N of Cherbourg. The other settler can head towards France or claim the fur.

We have 10 cites.
We are making 1 settler, 1 market, 1 library, 4 vMWs and 3 catapult.
Will try to keep the core making Mounted Warriors and city improvements. The fringes will continue to make catapults.
Will plan to have only three non-military improvements in progress at one time.

We are strong compared to France; weak compared to everyone else.

We have 5 native workers and 19 slaves.

In the North East are some good city sites.

Cities in the North East 150 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/150BC_NewCitiesNETrimmedDotted.jpg


The Pink Dot we can build this turn, in what is left of 150 BC.

The Blue Dot would be built in the middle of the turnset and is placed to claim a 2nd Fur. The only other visible unconnected luxuries are the Ivories by Ivory City. Right now, it seems better to have diversity and claim the monopoly at a later time.

The Green Dot is on a hill for defense.

The spacing on these three cities is pretty cautious. Each are one turn walking from another city, so we could shuffle reinforcements to them, if needed.

I've played three turns but have internet issues at the house and wanted some advice before I moved on.

I have a trading question.

We have 137 gold and +34 gpt.

India has no gold.
India will sell Iron Working for 14 gpt and 137 gold.
India will sell Code of Laws for 25 gpt and 137 gold.
India will not sell Map Making.
India will sell Polytheism for 25 gpt and 137 gold.

India has the best deals, excepting France. France will trade all 4 techs to have peace, but we are at AW with France, so that is not going to happen.

We are the second richest, behind the Zulus (they have about 170 gold). I checked for trades so that our treasury would not draw unwanted attention from the AIs.

Trade/No Trade/Trade for which?

I have a tough time with Ancient Techs at lower levels, much less Deity. Don't want to make the wrong trade.

Edit
PS - I copied the save onto a floppy at home, but the new PC at work says that the disc needs to be formatted!

I'm in the same boat as you, this zero/minimal research strat is one I've only just begun to deal with. I'd have to see the save to comment at all on this. Depends if we know anybody who is missing a tech we could buy.

*EDIT*
Side note, make sure not to make any 20 turn deals with Inca if we are within 20 turns of eliminating France.

0 0150 BC

(Left over moves from TimBentley's turns.)
Found Whiskey River 2N of Cherbourg, grows in 5, catapult in 20.
Fog-bust to the north of Whiskey River, just find more French borders.


Zulus and Incas swap kills on our northwest border.

Fog busting vMW is attacked by French Archer and Pike, wins both and promotes to Elite (2 of 2).

Ivory City settler -> settler, 8 turns.

[I] 1 0130 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs. vArcher, MW wins (3 of 3).
vMW vs. rArcher, MW is redlined but wins (4 of 4).


Zulus and Incas again swap kills, with the advantage going to the Incas.

Grand River library -> vMW, 6 turns.
Cherbourg catapult -> catapult, 7 turns.
Great Lake of the Fish catapult -> catapult, 4 turns. Next time, build library.

[I] 2 0110 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs. vMace, MW wins (5 of 5).
vMW vs. rArcher, MW wins and promotes to Elite (6 of 6).


Incas want to talk.
Incas want an MA vs. the Arabs and an ROP.
Too early to fight the Arabs, so we agree to an ROP, but no MA.
Incas accept the ROP.

The forests between Allegheny and Ivory City see many Incas and Zulus die.

[I] 3 0090 BC

Worker tasks and moves; settlers head towards Whiskey River.
Salamanca grows to 8.

We have a lot of cash. Only the Zulus are richer. That makes me nervous.

We have 137 gold, +34 gpt.
Talk to India. They are broke.
India will sell Iron Working for 14 gpt and 137 gold.
India will sell Code of Laws for 25 gpt and 137 gold.
India will not sell Map Making.
India will sell Polytheism for 25 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to Arabia. They have 5 gold.
Arabs will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Arabs will sell Code of Laws for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Arabs will not sell Map Making.
Arabs will sell Polytheism for 29 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to the Incas. They have 92 gold.
Incas will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas will sell Code of Laws for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas will not sell Map Making.
Incas will sell Polytheism for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas are at war with France, Zululand and Arabia.

Talk to the Zulu. They have 156 gold.
Zulu will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Zulu will sell Code of Laws for 29 gpt and 137 gold.
Zulu will not sell Map Making.
Zulu will sell Polytheism for 29 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to France. They have 13 gold.
France will trade Iron Working, Code of Laws, Map Making, Polytheism, 6 gpt and 13 of 13 gold for peace.

Cannot remember if peace with France is acceptable. Save game to check.
We are AW with France. So, no deal.

[IBT]
And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_0090BC.SAV).

*EDIT*
Side note, make sure not to make any 20 turn deals with Inca if we are within 20 turns of eliminating France.

And you should probably avoid doing it with the Zulu. 2 reasons:

1. The Inca are at war with several civs. They are probably on the ropes. How many cities do they have left?
2. They are the Zulu!!! :crazyeye:

To answer choxorn's earlier (and reduced recent) question, France has 8 cities and the Inca have 20 (they seem to be a bit inferior militarily but haven't seemed to lose cities).

Everybody's in the middle ages, so no help there. Come to think of it, we should get a coastal city and send a couple of curraghs out. We've got min research on polytheism, so let's not buy that. I don't see courthouses being useful for some time. Aqueducts on the other hand could be useful earlier than courthouses, so I'd go for iron working on the way to construction. While we don't need iron for units, an extra shield here or there would be a nice side benefit. It would be nice if we could sell iron to somebody. I hate to keep giving money to India but I see no better alternative.

Then forget what I said. You will most surely beat France before the AI beats the Inca, unless someone has something up their sleeve.

Are we going for Monarchy because of always war? Then probably it would be better to buy Polytheism and then research/trade Monarchy - new goverment will give more advantage then aqueducts and they are less usefull in Despotism.

Well, we are only AW vs. France. Once France is dead we pick on somebody else and we are at AW with them.

So, in this game, is Monarchy as appealing as in a 'normal' AW? Could we wage war in Republic and avoid war weariness by having only one foe at a time?

It is not impossible, but you need to expect tougher foes every now and then and the occasionnal war weariness. If you make it REALLY strong out of the first few wars, like with several 4-knights armies and everything rolls well, republic would be an interesting option, but if every new war is a struggle because of tech lag, you'll need the steadiness of monarchy.

So that leaves you with the option of gambling, playing safe or upholding the decision until you can no longer afford despotism OR once you can safely assess either. That latter time might never come before it's over, mind you... but the time when despotism is a thorn in your foot is pretty much already there.

I think that we must change our goverment twice - with Despotism "that time" will never come :mischief:
Maybe in the late MA or in Industrial Ages, when we will have some Cavalry armies, we will be able to fight very fast without much loses and change our goverment again - to Republic, but now we need to go out from Despotism.

I agree that a government switch needs to be top priority. I think another big consideration for republic/monarchy needs to be the number of native luxuries we have our hands on. If we war smartly with 4-5 lux's I think we'll be ok with the size of our cities in republic. What kind of trade options do we have for ivory or our dyes? Three local luxuries with surplus this early in the game is pretty decent.

I'll second the curragh idea, we need to get more contacts so the tech costs start dropping otherwise we'll never catch up.

As far as keeping our trading rep clean and being careful I agree to an extent; however we are playing AW. We are no one's friends we are just using them till we kill them. Sometimes if you can cut a deal for a couple techs in gpt and then declare war on them it can slingshot you into tech parity if you take that money to a different civ. I've used this strategy where you let all your current deals runout so you have a ton of excess gpt. Only when you are close to catching up in tech in the late MA do I think this is a good idea. Civs will still sell techs for gold just not gpt, by that time we should have a good enough military that it won't be a problem to have money in the bank at all times. I think we should definitely use this strategy but not until we are closer to nationalism and espionage.

I don't think that we want to ruin our reputation by breaking gpt deal even if we can trade techs only for gold. It's just bad thing and not allowed in SGs, same with ROP rape and other exploits ;)

I was not aware that was considered an exploit. Scratch that then!

So, trade for Poly, learn Monarchy at 50 turns and try for a coastal city.

Right?

any roster???

I think CommandoBob still has turns left on his set he was just checking in for strategy...I should be after him then.

So, trade for Poly, learn Monarchy at 50 turns and try for a coastal city.
Right?
Yeah, lets see what's up with Monarchy, maybe we will trade it now or later when some deals will expire. But if we will try to buy it, I think researching other tech will be better...


Roster:
Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob - currently playing
adz106 - on deck
Cyllus

Got home late, watched NCIS with my wife, did our taxes and then began to play my turns at 10 pm. Have one more turn but it is 2 am!

:eek:

I'll finish later today.

Quick update: made the trade for Poly, we are learning Monarchy.

We've heard of the Greeks and Mongols but we haven't met them yet.

We took and razed Besancon. We are moving on Orleans, and will be next to the city this next turn.

We have settlers heading to both coastlines. They are close, but they won't be built next turn.

Looks like by my turnset we'll be needing to start some pointy stick. Any thoughts who draws the short straw? IIRC we only border Persia, Zulu, and Inca who are not an option.

Consensus seems to be get Poly and learn Monarchy at minimum research. And try for a coastal town for curraghs.

Buy Polytheism from India for 25 gpt and 137 of 137 gold.
We begin to learn Monarchy (50 turns).
Hit Enter.

Incas kill 3 Zulu.
Zulu kill 3 Incas.

Niagara Falls vMW -> market, 13 turns.

Incas are building Sistine Chapel.

4 0070 BC

Settler moves into position to build a city and claim a second fur next turn.
Move towards France with stack of MW.
We find a north coast line and the French city of Besancon, size 12.


Oh!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/70BC_GreekDOWTrimmed.jpg

The unknown nation of Greece has declared war upon the mild mannered Zulus.

Incas: 4 kills
Zulu: 5 kills.

French Spear leaves Besancon, heading south into fog.

Allegheny vMW -> vSpear (for outer defense), 4 turns.
Oil Springs vMW -> vMW, 10 turns.
Gimme horses catapult -> catapult, 7 turns.

[I] 5 0050 BC

Found Broken Ankle 1N-2NE of Whiskey River, grows in 10, walls in 10.

Minor Skirmishes
eMW vs. rArcher, MW wins (7 of 7).

Move MW/catapult stack adjacent to Besancon.


Incas 2, Zulu 1.

French eArcher kills a MW that was solo outside Whiskey River (7 of 8).
First French offense in my turns.

Flatbush vMW -> vMW, 8 turns.
Great Lake of Fish catapult -> market, 20 turns.

Oh!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/50BC_KnightsTemplarTrimmed.jpg

Zulu city of Zimbabwe has completed the Knights Templar.

The Incas are building the Sistine Chapel (again).

[I] 6 0030 BC

Pounding of Besancon (12)
1 HP on rPike and two misses.

Battle of Besancon (12)
vMW vs. rPike 2/3, MW wins (8 of 9).
vMW vs. rSpear, Spear is redlined but wins (8 of 10).
vMW vs. rSpear, Spear wins (8 of 11).
eMW vs. rSpear 2/3, MW wins (9 of 12).
vMW vs. rArcher, MW wins (10 of 13).
MW Army vs. rSpear 1/3, Army wins (11 of 14).

Good News
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/30BC_BesanconTrimmed.jpg

And Besancon is now Iroquois.
At size 11 and on the far side of the French fiefdom, I decide to raze the city. It is on the coast but it way too French for our tastes.
We gain 5 slaves.
There is a grayish-yellow border just north of where the city was. Just border, no units or cities.

Minor Skirmishes
eMW vs. eArcher 1/5, MW wins (12 of 15).

SettlerForTheNorthCoast arrives in Cherbourg (a Zulu caused detour and delay).


Incas 2, Zulu 1.

[I] 7 0010 BC

India has a worker for sale: 4 gpt and 49 gold; too expensive.

Send a vMW northwards from old Besancon and it finds an Indian city in the fog.

Minor Skirmishes
eMV vs. rArcher, MW wins flawlessly (13 of 16).


India asks that our troops leave. We agree.

Oh!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/10BC_MAvsGreeceTrimmed.jpg

Mongols and the Zulus have signed a military alliance against Greece.

Incas 1, Zulu 1.
A French Archer and a French settler pair appear.

Grand River vMW -> vMW, 5 turns.
Ivory City settler -> setler, 8 turns.

[I] 8 0010 AD

SettlerForTheNorthCoast arrives in Broken Ankle.

Minor Skirmishes
eMW vs. rSpear, MW wins and we capture 2 French slaves (14 of 17).
eMW vs. vArcher, MW wins (15 of 18).


Incas 1, Zulu 1.

We lose a vMW to a French Horse (15 of 19).

Salamanca market -> library, 7 turns.
Allegheny vSpear -> vMW, 5 turns.
Cherbourg catapult -> catapult, 5 turns.

The Arabs are building Leonardo's Workshop.

[I] 9 0030 AD

Move vMWs, catapults and the last two French slaves southwards towards Orleans, staying in the hills. Five catapult, four vMW, one eMW and one Army.

SettlerForTheNorthCoast stays in Broken Ankle, waiting for the Indians to build a coastal city this IBT and to wait for some protection before moving out.
Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs. rHorse, MW wins (16 of 20).


Forest chopped near Niagara Falls adds to the market build.
India founds the city of Pune on the North Coast, in a prime spot I wanted for us.

Oh!
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/30AD_MAvsIncaTrimmed.jpg

India and Zululand have an MA vs. Incas.

Oh! (again)
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/30AD_IndiaDOWTrimmed.jpg

India declares war on the Inca.
Indians are building Sistine Chapel.

Incas 2, Zulu 1.
French Horse attacks a vMW and dies (17 of 21).

[I] 10 0050 AD

Incas are at war with everyone we know except us. Good, let's keep it that way.

Move Army, MW, catapults and workers next to the French captial of Orleans.
Stack of 11 slaves moves towards the core from the north.
Move Spear and SettlerForTheSouthCoast 1W from Allegheny, aiming for the only open coastal plain (which will give us a cow also).
Move workers into Niagara Falls on their way to Allegheny and to build road to connect that new city. Rivers slowed us down.
SettlerForTheNorthCoast heads for the ruins of Besancon, which straddles two bodies of water.

Trade check:
India and Arabia have no cash.
We have 105 gold and +22 gpt.


India will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 105 gold.
Code of Laws, Map Making and Monarchy are not for sale.
India will sell a worker for 1 gpt and 94 gold.

Arabs will sell Iron Working for 18 gpt and 105 gold.
Code of Laws, Map Making and Monarchy are not for sale.


[IBT]

50 AD 105 gold, +22 gpt.
Monarchy 43 turns (8.1.1)

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_0050AD.SAV).

Execpt for the trading, the most excitement of these turns was watching the Zulu and Incas kill each other inside our borders. The Incas seemed to be doing a bit better than the Zulus, at least from what I saw.

Slaves
We have a stack of eleven slaves heading for our core. They are somewhere around Great Lake of Fish (I can't remember where exactly). These are all French slaves but we don't need them near the French borders. We would need to defend them as they work, bummer. Plus, the French have done a lot of roading and improving for us, leaving little for these guys to do. So let's send them to our core where they can road some forests and hills and let our units move out that much faster.

Workers
We have two workers in Niagara Falls trying to get to Allegheny to connect the city that could be built on the south coast.

One SE of Oil Springs are three workers. I was planning to irrigate and road the plains tile they are on.

Build Orders
We have just a few cities buiding improvements and one city building a settler. Everyone else is making catapults or Mounted Warriors.

South Coast 50 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/50AD_TheSouthCoastTrimmedDotted.jpg

The green dot is where I was planning to build a south coast city and make curraghs. It takes a cow from the Incas and I cannot judge if that is good or bad. I don't see a city nearby which leads me to think that this tile is not being worked by the Inca. I think we can grab it with no adverse reaction from the Incas.

North Coast 50 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/50AD_TheNorthCoastTrimmedDotted.jpg

Next to Orleans is a stack of 5 catapults, 4 vMW, 1 eMW, 1 Army of MW and two french slaves. I did not have troops in place to protect these slaves back to Broken Ankle, so they joined the march to Orleans.

Orleans is on a hill.

SettlerForTheNorthCoast is in the stack of units 2N of the Orleans forces. It is heading for the ruins of Besancon (?), which we captured and razed. Right now it seems sort of silly to have razed the city just to resettle it. I had planned to put a new city on the hill where Pune sits, but India beat me to it. The Besancon ruins do save us some transit time around the isthmus Indian city of Indus.

Pillaging
One thing I wanted to do was to pillage the Horse tile near Lyons (not shown on any screenshot). But to do so will take at least two vMWs and about three turns to get there. I never had the units available to do that, which has allowed the French to build Horses in their northern cities. Orleans is also connected to Horses, but I haven't seen any come out.

Inca-Zulu War
Fun to watch, but the Incas and especially the Zulu get in our way when trying to move.

I don't think we need to waste money on buying more slaves, razing will be the modus operandi at deity level and thus we will get plenty of them. What we could do however, once we eliminate a Civ, their slaves could join cities as well.

I am happy that the Civs fight each other that hard. It will slow them down. I guess it will be easy to fight enemy #2, but the Zulu's will be a different beast alltogether

Since we will destroy France soon, fliping is not a big risk and we can take some cities now... But with next enemy it's true - razing will be better.

Roster:
Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob
adz106 - UP
Cyllus - on deck

"got it", hopefully will be able to play later tonight.

So, known civs: France, Inca, Zulu, India, Arabs. You also know that the Greece and Mongols have to exist. Also, because of the Inca's color, a Red civ (Rome, Babylon, Byzantines), an Orange civ (England, Ottomans, Dutch), a Green civ (Aztecs, Japan, Celts), a Light Blue civ (China, America, Sumeria, Spain), and a Blue civ (Germany, Korea, Maya) must also exist.

Or press F10...

50AD – Hit enter

IBT – Zulus and Arabs are building Sistine Chapel, Indians are building Leo’s. Zulu and Inca continue to go at it in the middle of our turf.

70AD – Seige of Orleans. 4/5 cats hit, MW army takes out vspear and 2 wounded pikes. eMW takes out wounded pike. vMW takes out varcher and promotes to elite. We capture Orleans with a cat and a worker. Decide to keep it for now. Oh I almost forgot, our eMW is now renamed EliteFrenchieKiller. ;)

eMW takes out varcher outside of Orleans. Kahnawake founded.

IBT – Shaka demands 25 gold, we pay. The people expand the palace, so we get a nice grassy knoll in front of our stoop. Zulu now have knights.

90AD – Caughnawaga founded > curragh, and move a ton of slaves around. Crowd Orleans to squelch the resistance so we can whip settlers out of it since it’s at size 10. It has a barracks for our wounded army.

IBT – Cuzco finishes the Sistine Chapel, Orleans riots so it get 4 tax collectors. Inca Indians are building Leo’s

110AD – Move a bunch of units are to take Lyons before the Arabs do.

IBT – Inca and Zulu continue to make no progress.

130AD – eMW takes out varcher outside of Orleans. Move in to take Lyons and Grenoble. CornPlanter is now safely in Salamanca.

IBT – The Zulu city of Bapedi completes Leo’s.

150AD – Seige of Grenoble 2/6 cats hit, army takes out two espears, and eMW takes out varcher. Seige of Lyons 2/6 cats hit so I wait till next turn since it still has full strength pikes showing.

IBT – Arabia and Zulu sign alliance vs. Greece. Inca take French city next to Lyons.

170AD – Salamanca builds Library > MW, Niagara Falls builds Market > Library, IC builds Settler > MW, Switch Grand River to Market. Seige of Lyons take two, 3/6 cats hit and there are only wounded pikes showing. vMW defeats rpike and promotes, vMW retreats on pike, vMW defeats pike, vMW defeats vspear and our glorious armies are victorious. vMW defeats varcher outside of Lyons.

190AD – I’m going to stop here because it looks like the Inca might take out the French on this IBT. If they do we immediately have to declare on them right? The resistance in Orleans is over so we can whip settlers to fill that all in. Also I didn’t make an army since we didn’t need it I thought FP would be a better idea at this point. Let’s discuss what we’re gonna do if Inca takes out France because they have a lot of units by our core. Check out the save and screenshots.

This was the URL for the save. Can someone give me instructions how to link stuff once it's over the 500kB limit.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/99069/SM4_-_190AD.SAV

Why has SettlerForTheNorthCoast not yet settled the North Coast? As for the wipe out France problem, you should probably pray that they get some incredible RNG luck.

adz: At the bottom of the main forum page, click the upload file link. It will let you upload something to the site's server - but it won't link it to any post automatically.

Once it's there, right click on it and copy the link location. You can then use the link in your post.

Good progress, at least one civ is done :)
Cyllus is Up now.

:lol: I think Adz was looking for some help/suggestions on what to do about the Inca that are going to be threatening our core towns NEXT turn if they finish France off. and if we don't start a war with another civ for pointy stick we'll be so far behind in tech it won't matter what we do. Swords v Muskets in our future?

IIRC we got no choice here but to declare on Incas, then Zulu. Incans should be fine as a target as they have fought wars like forever...as for research, we need to slowly get our way up, no choice. Buy some techs for gpt and so on. Some additional wars won't help us.

If we can get feudalism, that would help really as maces will do a little better of course. We got to be careful as the MW army might get attacked when wounded as it is defense 1 only.

Thanks to cyllus for recognizing my request for a team discussion. It seemed like a pretty important couple turns in the scheme of the game.

What I'd like to propose as the plan for the next objective is this. We declare war on Inca now on this turn and take out the units that are about to take out France so we can do some pointy sticking. As TheRat pointed out Inca has been at war quite a bit and the Zulu have a ton of units on our territory and they are actively fighting them. The MW army is 100% and parked in Orleans. The only thing that worries me is some of these French towns that we just took deposing sooner or later.

I played 9 turns and I'm pretty busy so i'll just let cyllus pick up where i left off.

I'l pick it up right now, not sure how we'd get pointy stick out of Inca. If we'd surround that French city so that nobody else could attack them and keep them alive for 30 turns or so (we'd need to attack Inca then sign peace for 20 turns before declaring again) this could work, but I don't think we can tie up that many troops, all sounds like too much atm. We'll see what we'll see.

I don't think that waiting 20-30 turns is a good thing from the point of honor - if France must be eliminated lets keep it going :)
Since Inca are at war, it will be much easyer to fight with them. I'll look more closely at save if you have any questions about next turnset.

I typed a lot, sorry for the long-windedness
Preturn…
Oh Mylanta!
Units in our territory
Arabia (At war with Inca) 5 Swords, 2 Archers, 7 Spears
India (At war with Inca via MA with Zulu) 1 ME, 1 Galley
Zulu (At war with Inca) 10 Impi, 10 Knights, 2 Longbowman, 1 ME
Inca JUST outside our borders (At war with India, Arabia, and Zulu) 8 ME, 2 Pikes, 5 Spears, 2 Archers, 1 Cat, 2 Swords
We have 20 cats (2 are French), 27 MW, 8 Spears, 1 Army, 2 Archers, 2 Warriors, 26 Slaves. Allowed Units 68, Total Units 61.
362 Gold, 76gpt
France is definitely going down next turn, then we have to declare on Inca. Inca doesn't have Horses but does have SoZ :mad:

Trade Op time
An alliance vs Inca drops our tech cost for the time being but not by a huge margin (For example, knocks 168g off MM from Zulu, not a great amount) and ROP doesn’t sweeten the deal any.
We can afford Monarchy for a large amount but we can’t afford Anarchy yet, not until we are out of defend mode vs Inca.
Unfortunately Inca would give us CoL AND IW for Horses and Furs…
Zulu is going to get our Military Alliance because if they’d sign peace with Inca atm we’d be in trouble in our core.

Purchase MM from Zulu for MA v Inca, Furs, and 279g
Purchase CoL from India for Ivory, 90g, and 7gpt
IW is 24gpt no matter where we shop, so I give it to Arabia
All we need now is Construction (we are 14 turns into Monarchy so I leave that alone)
We’re at +65gpt with Monarchy in 36, could knock off 11 turns and be at +11gpt… tempting but I don’t.
Take a risk and sign RoP with Zulu. Their capital looks in the direction we’d need to go to meet some more civs. He is gracious… for now.

These rivers are painful to cross…
Cornplanter builds Army, load 1 MW, 2 more next turn
Start clearing Inca out 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, no promotions
Think about all the things I probably did wrong, HIT ENTER

IBT
Inca brings 2 ME in and kills a stranded Spear and MW (5-2)
Incan’s destroy the French
Zulu goes to town on the Inca
Oil Springs MW->Market
Great Lake O’ Fish Market->Rax
Apologize ahead of time to those with OCD… We get a Palace expansion

1 – 210 A.D.
Load the Army, name it Southern Army, and other one Northern Army (Creative I know)
Remove 4 ME from our territory (9-2), get a look into Incan land, here they come
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Here_they_come.JPG

IBT
See the first Zulu Crusader
Arabs returning home, find out they signed peace with Inca

2 – 230 A.D.
Take out 2 ME (11-3)
Position stacks to take out Rheims and Amiens

IBT
Inca attacks our stack we win two, lose one, retreat one. (13-3)

3 – 250 A.D.
Capture Amiens with Army and E-MW (16-3)
Can’t take Rouen yet, need to take stack back to Lyons for defense.
Take 2 Pikes out with Southern Army (18-3)

IBT
Persia tromps a stack of THIRTY NINE through our northern territories
Incans use 3 ME to take a V-MW from our stack (20-4)
The Zulu are helping BIGTIME drive back the Inca but damn if they’d just let US control their troops they’d be doing so much better! So much mindless wandering and wasitn turns traveling through forest instead of roads. Boggles the mind… :crazyeye:
We get the obligatory message
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Forbidden_Palace.JPG

4 – 260 A.D.
Move stack into Amiens to heal up
Clear the Pike away from Lyons (21-4)
All I can do for now

IBT
Why do the Knights sound like they’re on helium?
Zulu drags Spain in
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Zulu_gets_help.JPG
Zulu soften up some Inca for us
Rheims Cat->Rax

5 – 270 A.D.
Take an injured Pike away from Lyons (22-4)
Next turn I can advance a little bit but not yet

IBT
India brings the War Elephants out to play
Arabs get back into the war vs Inca
Zulu start Copernicus!

6 – 280 A.D.
Take Rouen (27-4) 2 Incan resistors, I keep it.

IBT
Watch the Zulu/Inca stalemate just West of our borders. Neither civ is gaining ground really, we’ll be good when we get a decent force to advance.
Japan declares on India… Now I can watch their intense army go back to their own lands.

7 – 290 A.D.
Kill 2 more wounded Incans (29-4)
Organized Chaos at it’s best…

IBT
Zulu gets a leader
Salmanca Settler->Heroic Epic (Due in 20)

8 – 300 A.D.
Find an Incan source of Iron we can snatch in a couple turns if India doesn’t beat us to it.
Trying to get you set up Smart, best I can.

IBT
Same Ole

9 – 310 A.D.
Almost ready to roll
If Inca had Horses I’m not sure we’d be surviving this.

IBT
Same Ole

10 – 320 A.D.
Take out an Archer (I lost count) get a LEADER, going to stop here there is a lot going on and important decisions to be made and I’m not capable :D

There is a stack in the South Healing up to make a move on Nasca.
We can purchase Construction now so there are deals to be made.
There is 1 MW heading through Zululand (unroaded!) to find other civs and a Galley doing the same.
Inca has Muskets…
Now here in the North we have a couple options. Keep in mind that India has 3 War Elephants that can attack the Iron City NEXT turn, we can only get into position to take it on the next turn.

Notes for next player
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Notes_for_next_players.JPG

The Big Picture
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/The_Big_Picture.JPG

The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/SM4_320_AD.SAV

So, known civs: France, Inca, Zulu, India, Arabs. You also know that the Greece and Mongols have to exist. Also, because of the Inca's color, a Red civ (Rome, Babylon, Byzantines), an Orange civ (England, Ottomans, Dutch), a Green civ (Aztecs, Japan, Celts), a Light Blue civ (China, America, Sumeria, Spain), and a Blue civ (Germany, Korea, Maya) must also exist. And Now you know the existance of Persia, Japan, and Spain. You are still missing a red, an orange, and a blue. Persia moved an SOD through your territory, but have you actually contacted them, or Japan, Greece, Mongolia, or Spain?

Who are you at war with? :crazyeye:

AFAIK, only the Inca.

When I'm saying Persia I think I mean India, I get them confused a lot. We are only at war with Inca. Still only know Zulu, Inca, India, Arabia.

We definitely need some boats for contacts... We are really behind in techs :rolleyes:

I'll be out until Sunday.

We can buy Construction right now, possibly Monarchy or Rep also but I doubt it. In 10 turns our other GPT deals end AND we will have met at least one more civ, possibly two, which should lower some tech costs.
Yes we are way behind in techs, lets see if we can come out of this.
Just for referene, Zulu have the GLib in Zimbabwe and are our next target. It's 4 Metropolises (Isipezi will be one when we reach this point) into their territory from us...

we should make sure that we do not get education before we take that Zulu capital with the TGL. That would be huge and gets us back into the game. We simpy need to make sure we can beat them.

Incas shouldn't pose a threat really.

It's 4 Metropolises (Isipezi will be one when we reach this point) into their territory from us...

Cyllus, Metros can't appear until the IA, do you mean cities? ;)

I'll try to get it tomorrow :)

Sorry team, I had many things to do and when I looked at the save I realized that it will be too long... I will be out till Tuesday :blush:

guess I take it then before you, smart

Smart
ThERat - currently playing
TimBentley - on deck
CommandoBob
adz106
Cyllus

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/SM4_420_AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
it's turn 147...a bit weird
move the stack next to Poitiers and their iron
they still have 22 cities and their culture is such, we better do not keep their cities for now
send our leader to Lyons, will use it to rush HE there

IT Poitiers gets taken by the Indians

1.330AD
move towards Nasca, rush HE
purchase construction from India for 620gold and 29gpt
all next tier techs know by all of course

IT it's good that we have all our allies, else we would have sunk here already
Zulu and India sign against Greece, that we haven't even met yet

2.340AD
move on to 2 Incan cities with our armies

IT Incans and India sign peace, that is no good

3.350AD
take Huaras in the north and found Oka

IT we lose a spear in Ivory City, then Zulu help us with attacking

4.360AD
defeat 3 muskets and a redlines mace and manage to raze Nasca for 6 slaves
found Chondote next to it
defeat 3 units next to Ivory city, but lose 2 MW

IT as usual the Zulu's are helping us out here to fight Inca, very nice

5.370AD
advance slowly, but not very fast, the amries used as cover, but one is healing

IT Zulu finish Copernicus...they are soon more than an age ahead of us

6.380AD
the whole place looks more like chess board
decide to build an embassy with Arabs to figure out where they are
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/deity1.jpg

IT Zulu sign peace with Greece, little traitors they are

7.390AD
bombard Chuits, redline 4 units inside
city is razed for 1 cat and 6 slaves
found Gandasetaogon on the northern coast

8.400AD
get RoP with India so we can keep on exploring

9.410AD
we get some infrastructure, I built some libraries as we do need some culture else even the core might flip
our western dinky finally meet someone else, the Spanish, obviously fighting Incas
hey, they don't have engineering
but even our whole coffer won't get this for us

build an embassy with them
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/deity2.jpg

10.420AD
a payment ends and we make now 105gpt
in the southeast, we meet Japan, total backwards clowns!!!
they don't even have lit, CoL and literature
sell them CoL for 28gold and a slave

important to note, Inca's play first before the Zulu
also, if our MW armies get injured, they will be attacked!!!

we could get engineering for a possible trade with Spain
but it's expensive, around 400gold, 85gpt and ivory to Zulu
maybe we wait for more contacts as I am sure there are more

situation
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53368/deity3.jpg

Where is Japan?
I now know more about the cause of Inca color shift:
White: Barbs (obviously)
Red: Unknown (Rome, Babylon)
Orange: Unknown (England, Ottomans, Dutch)
Yellow: Zulu
Green: Japan? (were they Green or Dark Red?)
Light Blue: Spain
Blue: Unknown (Germany, Maya, Korea)
Pink: France
Purple: You

*Observation*
Choxorn likes colors [offtopic]

Actually, it's curiosity (but I do like colors...) :crazyeye:

Got it. Playing tomorrow perhaps.

Got to turn 4, now it's too late. Razed two cities, Zulus captured another with the assistance of cavalry. BTW we somehow ruined our rep with the Incas (looks like we had a ROP when war was declared).

2 0110 BC
[IBT]
Incas want to talk.
Incas want an MA vs. the Arabs and an ROP.
Too early to fight the Arabs, so we agree to an ROP, but no MA.
Incas accept the ROP.


...BTW we somehow ruined our rep with the Incas (looks like we had a ROP when war was declared).

I forgot about the ROP when I was doing my handoff.

:bump:
What's happening here?

Tim, aren't you playing? :hammer2:

Tim, even if you can't finish your turns, post what you played so far.

Sorry, I kept thinking I would have time to play.

420(0): extra food in Salamanca, Orleans, Oka, Allegheny
extra shield in Lyons so there's extra useful gold later
extra gold in Grenoble, Broken Ankle
change Huaras to worker as I don't want a foreign settler (oops, didn't realize there was a forest chop at the time)
2 MWs kill redlined musket, 2hp longbowman

IBT: MW dies to knight
alliance with Zulu against Incas expires
Broken Ankle rax->MW
Zulu, India start Bach's

430(1): kill 2 muskets to raze Tamboccocha
kill 2 muskets to raze Ica
kill a random longbowman
found Ganogeh

IBT: kill 2 MDI
Zulu have cavalry
Salamanca MW->MW
Niagara MW->MW
Grand River MW->MW
Allegheny spear->MW
Huaras worker->cat
Flatbrush cat->MW
Gimme MW->lib

440(2): apparently we ruined our rep with Incas

IBT: Arabia destroys Greece
kill an MDI
Whiskey River spear->spear
Rouen rax->MW
India starts Bach's

450(3): kill an MDI

IBT: Zulu capture Chartres
Lyons spear->MW
Ivory City MW->MW (maybe aqueduct is better)
Caughnawaga rax->MW
India starts Bach's (I guess it's at the start of the turn, sorry)

Here is the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/46178/SM4_460_AD.SAV).

Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob - up
adz106 - on deck
Cyllus


cavalry will be a toughy to crack later on when we turn to them

Monarchy in 12 turns (9.0.1)
895 gold, +111 gpt

Salamanca (8) grows in 5, vMounted Warrior (vMW) in 1.
Orleans (4) grows in 2, settler in 9.
Lyons (6) grows in 9, vMW in 8.
Whiskey River (7) grows in 5, vSpear in 3.
Niagara Falls (7) grows in 4, vMW in 1.
Grand River (7) grows in 3, vMW in 2.
Oka (2) grows in 5, settler in 19.
Ganogeh (1) grows in 7, barracks in 37.
Allegheny (7) grows in 32, vMW in 1.
Chondote (2) grows in 10, walls in 5.
Rouen (4) zero growth, vMW in 14.
Grenoble (5) grows in 7, vGalley in 16.
Ivory City (6) grows in 6, vMW in 6.
Amiens (5) zero growth, rGalley in 10.
Gandasetaigon (1) grows in 3, rGalley in 23.
Cherbourg (6) grows in 17 library in 4.
Oil Springs (6) grows in 10, market in 8.
Huaras (2) shortage of 2 fpt (two taxmen), catapult in 18.
Flatbush (6) grows in 4, vMW in 3.
Gimme horses (6) grows in 7, library in 12.
Great Lake of the Fish (8) grows in 17, barracks in 1.
Broken Ankle (4) grows in 4, vMW in 12.
Kahnawake (4) grows in 10, settler in 20.
Caughnwaga (4) grows in 4, vMW in 6.

City Builds:

vMW [10] (Salamanca, Lyons, Niagara Falls, Grand River, Allegheny, Rouen, Ivory City, Flatbush, Broken Ankle and Caughnawaga)
Settler [3] (Orleans, Oka and Kahnawake)
vSpear [1] (Whiskey River)
Barracks [2] (Ganogeh and Great Lake of the Fish)
Walls [1] (Chondote)
vGalley [1] (Grenoble)
rGalley [2] (Amiens and Gandasetaigon)
Library [2] (Cherbourg and Gimme horses)
Market [1] (Oil Springs)
Catapult [1] (Huaras)


Military:

00 Settler
05 Workers
02 Warriors
02 Archers
15 Spears
27 Catapults
02 Galleys
02 Army
37 Mounted Warriors

We have a French-Iroquois settler 1NW of Lyons; headed where?

We are weak compared to Japan (Despotism).
We are weak compared to Zululand (Monarchy).
We are weak compared to Incas (Monarchy).
We are weak compared to India (Republic).
We are weak compared to Arabia (Republic).
We are weak compared to Spain (Republic).

We are only at war with the Incas.
Incas are at war with everyone except Japan (no contact) and India.

We have 24 cites and are tied with the Arabs for most cities.
Incas have 18 cities.

We can still sell Currency to Japan for 34 gold (all).

Check prices on Monarchy.
Spain: 37 gpt and 895 of 895 gold
India: no trade
Zulus: WM, 36 gpt and 895 of 895 gold
Arabs: WM, 37 gpt and 895 of 895 gold

Check prices on Engineering.
Spain: does not have
India: no trade
Zulus: WM, 71 gpt and 895 of 895 gold
Arabs: WM, 73 gpt and 895 of 895 gold

Spain lacks Engineering but also lacks gold.

Check prices on Feudalism.
Spain: no trade
India: no trade
Zulus: no trade
Arabs: no trade

FYI: Incas will give up the city of Vilcabamba (3) to make peace, but no techs or other cities.

We have three horses.
We have two fur, one dye and two ivory.

Don't see any new luxuries.

Plan to continue the grinding of the Incas.

Looks like we have a good deal of space to fill in, especially in the northwest towards the Incas. Should we peel off some settlers from our larger cities to fill this before the AI?

more cities is never a bad idea, we will need them for unit support and for science farms

I thought we were planning to take GL, how are we going to do that? When should we start? Zulu have cavalry already and will get rifles soon...
If our army won't be attacked, we can carry some units with it, but I don't think so (defence = 1) :rolleyes:

I thought we were planning to take GL, how are we going to do that? When should we start? Zulu have cavalry already and will get rifles soon...

Oh, I must have missed that. I'll get back with some thoughts to get the GL.

well, we need to fight Zulu next after Incas gone....

I'll be out until a week from Sunday.

Was finally able to get two turns played last night. Sorta tame, compared to some other turns in this game. Plan to finish tonight.

1 0460 AD

Salamanca vMW -> settler, one turn (city will go to size 6).
Two Inca units can be attacked, but will them slug it out with the Zulu on the IBT and then kill the cripples.


We are attacked twice on the IBT; win one, lose one.
Spain lands some units on the backside of Inca land.

Salamanca settler -> vMW, 4 turns.
Niagara Falls vMW -> vMW, 3 turns.
Allegheny vMW -> vMW, 3 turns.
Great Lake of the Fish barracks -> vSpear, 3 turns.

[I] 2 0470 AD

Found Last French Folly 2 SW of Lyons, grows in 10, catapult in 20.

Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs.vMace 1/4, MW wins (2 of 3).

Zulus appear very ready and able to attack the Incas. We let them.
Save game for the night.


Zulus and Incas flay at each other, Zulus prevailing.
Spainish forces in Inca land are destroyed.

Grand River vMW -> settler, 4 turns.

[I] 3 0480 AD

Zulu Cavalry is impressive. Let it kill and raze Incas while we fill in with new cities.
3rd Ivory is connected.
Niagara Falls vMW -> settler, 2 turns.


Moved 2 vMWs into harms way; both were lost in Inca attacks (2 of 5).

Arabs sending a lot of units, at least 30, west through India, to take on the Incas. Includes Ansars and Warriors.

Whiskey River vSpear -> vSpear, 4 turns.
Flatbush vMW -> settler, 5 turns.

[I] 4 0490 AD

Move a settler northwards, just north of Ganogeh; Zulu Impi stands where we want to build.


Lose a vMW (2 of 6).
Zulus clean up.
Arabs begin to appear to our south.
Indian settler/musket pair appear near Cherbourg.

Niagara Falls settler -> vMW, 5 turns.
Allegheny vMW -> vMW, 3 turns.
Chondote walls -> barracks, 14 turns.
Cherbourg library -> settler, 5 turns.
Great Lake of the Fish vSpear -> vSpear, 3 turns.

[I] 5 0500 AD

Move settler into place, 3NW of Ganogeh.

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_AD_500.SAV).

I had planned to play 10 turns, but RL and some in-game issues convinced me to just play these five turns.


North Plains 500 AD
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SM4/500AD_NorthPlainsTrimmed2.jpg

On the Blue Dot 3NW of Ganogeh we have a settler ready to make another city next turn.

We also have a lot of space to claim and I have switched some builds in the core from vMW to Settler to be able to claim this land. Thus far I have only seen one settler pair heading for this area. I think we need to make are Iroquois, with lots of funky Verb/Adjective-Noun names. Zulus and soon the Arabs are going to be killing the Incas for a long time to come. Let's let them do our dirty work while we build new cities and strengthen our older ones.

I think that is the right strategy; I don't know (based on experience) that it is the right strategy. So this seemed like a good time in the game to stop and ask about it.

I have not been trying to beat up on the Incas since I am focused on building some cities. I have had only one offensive attack. I feel too passive right now, and again, I am not sure if stalling our offense is a good thing, even with Zulu and Arab help.

We are the second richest civ and that bothers me, since I expect someone to demand some tribute.

We can trade away some of that gold, but I don't know if these deals are good enough:


Engineering:
Arabs: 50 gpt and 1191 of 1314 gold.
India: no trade.
Spain: 50 gpt and 1191 of 1314 gold.
Zulu: 50 gpt and 1175 of 1314 gold.

Feudalism:
Arabs: no trade.
India: no trade.
Spain: no trade.

Monotheism:
Arabs: 50 gpt and 1188 of 1314 gold.
India: no trade.
Spain: 50 gpt and 1188 of 1314 gold.
Zulu : 50 gpt and 1171 of 1314 gold.

Monarchy:
Arabs: 21 gpt and 1157 of 1314 gold.
India: no trade.
Spain: 21 gpt and 1157 of 1314 gold.
Zulu : 20 gpt and 1162 of 1314 gold.

Republic:
Arabs: 55 gpt and 1177 of 1314 gold.
India: no trade.
Spain: 55 gpt and 1177 of 1314 gold.
Zulu : 55 gpt and 1160 of 1314 gold.

Currency:
Japan will pay 80 of 80 gold for Currency.

And add this wrinkle: Zulu and India have off shore contacts with:

English
Mongols
Babylonians
Koreans
Aztecs
Persians
Vikings

I did not check these prices. But I suspect if we got one we could trade around for the others and maybe reduce our tech cost.

With these three or four rather major areas of discussion and the fact it took me so long just to play these turns, I thought it best to just play these five and pass the game along to the next player.

You could also buy Zulu or India's World Map...
Also, You now know who all of the civs are:
Iroqouis (you)
France (destroyed)
Inca
Zulu
India
Arabs
Greece (destroyed)
Spain
Japan
English
Mongols
Babylonians
Koreans
Aztecs
Persians
Vikings

BTW, if you get all of the contacts at once, you can choose which one to declare war on when you get to them. :D

Smart
ThERat
TimBentley
CommandoBob
adz106 - up (last time active on 14Feb, so maybe next player might want to grab it)
Cyllus - on deck

Cyllus, just take it and play

if nobody is posting a got it, I will play some turns today to get this game moving

Go ahead The Rat, I can't play till tomorrow night at the earliest. If yo haven't by then I'll take my ten then.

I tried to load the save and the game immediately crashes...commandobob, could you check whether the save is correct

I'll play after you then to keep it going.
We have done some mistakes at the start, thats why now we are in so bad position... We need to think about long-term plan, with current tech situation we will not be able to survive after Inca is gone. Fighting Cavs + rifles with spears and MW's = :crazyeye:
When should start GL operation? How are we planning to do it? Lets discuss those things :scan:

I tried to load the save and the game immediately crashes...commandobob, could you check whether the save is correct


And the save is >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58993/SM4_AD_500.SAV).
I had the wrong file name in the saved URL (SM4_500AD instead of SM4_AD_500). I fixed that, downloaded the save and it opened fine on my machine.

The above quote has the correct link to the save file.

I hope this fixes the problem.

smart, how do you want to pull off the GL capture. We can and must declare on Zulu only once Inca are destroyed.

I think the only way to do this, is a nasty ROP rape. By the time we know Incas are about to go, we need to pile a stack of units next to the GL city and once war is declared, capture the city and keep for 1 turn. Should be possible of we manage to pillage the roads around it as well.

Cyllus, if you can play tonight, take it, I go after that and then smart.

If the Zulu are willing to sign a RoP with you, that is. They will remember your "RoP Rape" of the Inca.

I thought that we can make wars with anyone and then sign peace, if it's not the "current" enemy.
Inca have 13 cities to go, do we have to wait? Zulu will get Nationalism after that, probably they have only one or few MA techs to research... Btw we have RoP with them currently.

First, you should buy contact with the rest of the world to get more chances of getting techs. There's likely to be some advanced civs out there.

I thought that we can make wars with anyone and then sign peace, if it's not the "current" enemy.
Inca have 13 cities to go, do we have to wait? Zulu will get Nationalism after that, probably they have only one or few MA techs to research... Btw we have RoP with them currently.
I think we forgot that fact as we focused on 'Public Enemy #1'. So, we can't make peace with the current victim, not a problem. But, does that mean they have to be our primary focus? Could we not beat up on someone else for limited goals while we just shadow-box with our main foe?

And, in the current situation, we could maintain a war stance against the Inca and let the AIs kill each other off. Right?

I've been saying this for a longtime. Without any sort of pointy stick we'll be attacking Infantry with ME, or even swords at this rate. I'm gonna play right now. If I can't squeeze ten turns out before I need to get off I'll just post what I got with the save.

Yes, we can make different things with other civs too. I'm not saying leave current enemy with one city and play like in normal game - it would be unfair, but in current situation we can't focus on Inca only - our research is like in Always War game where we can't trade.
We need contacts, but it may take some time... I'm think we must maintain safe war with Inca and at the same time take GL city and rebuild infrastructure. Then we will be able to continue wars with more "modern" units then obsolete MW's and spears.

My idea of a safe war (here) is to let the Zulu and everyone else beat up on the Incas. We don't give peace, but don't pursue war. We build cities where there were none or once were some. We keep our Incan border cities defended.

That's the easy part. Planning on how to take GL City, sorta different. For that we need the Inca's strong enough to keep the Zulu occupied while we build up. So we may need to begin blocking Zulu units moving through our wigwams. It would be nice if GL City was near a border with a 3rd civ, so we could get an ROP with that civ and still have our troops near enough to GL City to get there upon the declaration of war. Even better, if we could get MAs against the Zulu once we attack.

The raid to capture GL City could be costly, especially if we raze the city. (Or we could just gift it back to the Zulus and teleport our units home, but that seems a bit of a cheat.) If we raze the city (and all this is without looking at a save or a map) we may strand our units deep in enemy territory.

If we pull off the Great Library Elevator, and manage to make peace with the Zulus rather shortly (say, five turns or so) and we haven't lost too many cities, we need a fair number of cities to turn that new knowledge into power and units.

Or then again, perhaps an overses embassy so we can sell contacts and knowledge to the unwashed masses.

Preturn:
We are 8 turns from Monarchy
First off I look for trades, there are a LOT of communications to buy.
Only Zulu and Persia know Printing Press.
Mass communication purchases, India gets them all because Zulu has over 7k in gold
English->90g Mongols->62g and WM Babylon->124g Aztecs->135g Vikings->113g Korea->107g Persia->126g
Most of these civs ONLY know Zulu and Persia which is odd. Only England has techs AND is behind in other techs (besides Japan of course). The 2 most powerful civs are our next targets, sweet! :lol:
Build embassy with England for 82g and check their price for Monarchy. They were the first civ I purchased from India and at the time they’d trade Monarchy for Currency, Lit, Ivory, Furs, and 77g. Now their price is Currency and Lit OR Currency and Ivory for Monarchy and their measly 2g. I give them the 2 techs for Monarchy and 2g. They’re way to far away to trade resources with without a big risk that the route get cut off.
Sell Currency to Japan for all of their 80g.
Purchase Engineering from Korea for 495g and 66gpt
Purchase Fued from the Mongols for Monarchy, Engineering, and 61g
Now we are up Eng and Fued on Aztec, Sandanavia, and England. Hopefully one of them researches Mono for us to trade with.
I get to take the Anarchy turns
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Anarchy.JPG

And oh yeah, Zulu is strong! I cancel the ROP with them, we don’t need to move on their territory to meet civs anymore and they’re just gonna crush Inca otherwise.
Move some troops around
Hit Enter

IBT
Zulu drags India in against Inca

1 – 510 A.D.
Wake a fortified Galley and continue him on his way.
Troop movement and worker turns

IBT
Zulu drags Korea in against Inca

2 – 520 A.D.
Scandanavia learns Mono
Just like turn 1

IBT
Nothing

3 – 530 A.D.
More of the same

IBT
Nothing

4 – 540 A.D.
Can’t get an offense going. The Inca are trickling in too quickly in the Northeast.

We had company pop in and I been away from the computer now for 3 hours, now we're heading out. Here is the save if someone can take it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/SM4_540AD.SAV

Preturn:
And oh yeah, Zulu is strong! I cancel the ROP with them, we don’t need to move on their territory to meet civs anymore and they’re just gonna crush Inca otherwise.

You idiot! Weren't you going to RoP Rape the Zulu to get the GLB elevator? :crazyeye:

how many turns of anarchy did we draw?

great deals btw...this will help us but we lack iron as far as I remember

We should try and get Incas RoP back as we need to rape them

suggest smart you continue as this would fit the original roster

We should try and get Incas RoP back...

Um. Inca??

We drew 6 turns of anarchy, sorry I didn't post that.

No one took it yet, I'll finish the ten turns right now. Has Adz been around?

No one took it yet, I'll finish the ten turns right now. Has Adz been around?

Does this answer your question?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/85723/Last_Activity.JPG

First off thanks for the update on Adz Chox :crazyeye:

The rest of the story (AKA turn 4)

Clear our lands of Inca

IBT
Japan and India sign peace

5 – 550 A.D.
Without Maya having the ROP we can’t hold off the Inca so he gets it back, won’t pay any gold for it.
Just more random movement

IBT
Nothing

6 – 560 A.D.
We are now a Monarchy
Invention in 50 at 76gpt, 14 turns left giving 66gpt to Korea
We could trade Engeneering AND 14gpt to Scandanavia for Mono but I’m going to wait for .
We cannot afford Iron with our 76gpt… Losing out on Poitiers is going to cost us a fortune.

IBT
Babylon and India sign MA against Inca
Spain and Inca sign peace
Zulu take 2 Incan cities, Arabs about to take another with their Ansar Warrior stack

7 – 570 A.D.
Almost have a stack ready to move again.

IBT
Arabs raze Juli

8 – 580 A.D.
India is in Democracy
Nothing really happening as of now
Sell Ivory to India for 309g and 7gpt
Rush 2 Libraries, we need SOME cultural expansion.
Just to note: Ivory, Furs, 2g, and 80gpt is not enough to get us Iron.

IBT
UGG here come the war Elephants again. Also note Arabia sending a Settler in. We have enough in production that we should beat any of the Eastern civs to settling Razed Incan territory.
Figures, just after I say that an Indian Galley drops off a Settler pair and settles some Northwestern open space lol.

9 – 590 A.D.
Practically nothing
Duh, just noticed something… :hammer2:
Purchase Mono from Scandanavia for Engineering and 4gpt then turn Mono and sell it and 17gpt to Mongolia for Iron. (could have used Ivory or Furs in the deal but I don’t want the trade route to be broken somehow and we get burned)
Lower the Lux slider 1 and mm to get 23gpt more.
Change some builds

IBT
BAH! Gimme Horses riots.

10 – 600 A.D.
A LOT of civs learn Chivalry and Theology, none of the ones we’re up on of course.
The polite Indians will sell us Chvalryfor practically all we’ve got.
Our land is littered with foreign Elephant and Horse Dung!

Well that’s all folks, whoever takes it next will find our SOD the only thing not moved, it’s ready to go finally.

Some pictures for those who like pictures
Here’s as much of our goofy doughnut shaped territory as will fit
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/Zoomed_out.JPG

The War Front
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/untitled.JPG

The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106808/SM4_600_AD.SAV

Looks good, Cyllus. We've got new tech and better units. Great!

I've not downloaded the save, so just some quick questions.

Who are we at war with?

Who do we want to be at war with?

From just the map, we need a lot of purple cities and we have some yellow and gray splotches in our land.

We have a lot of Incan and soon-to-be open land to settle to our northwest.

My very vague thinking is that we lay low, build better units and settlers and begin to fill in the unclaimed land. We build the GL City Task Force (unless we learn Education) and move it into place. Once we declare on the Zulu we get India to join us on an MA against the Zulu. Once Zululand is purple, we DoW on India, at least to remove any Gray threat in our own backyard.

Not real detailed, and may not even practical, but so much about this level is unfamiliar to me. And even to me it sounds sorta fuzzy.

Great trades, why we didn't noticed earlier that some civs can trade contacts? :goodjob:
I checked the save - we still have RoP with Zulu, mb you forgot to write something? :crazyeye:

Pre-turn: Arabia and Mongols have iron which we may buy later. Anarchy will be ended in two turns. We are running at negative gpt (-66) because we are paying for Engineering to Korea :( We can't use this tech anyway, would be better to get it from GL too.
I changed clowns to scientists in the some towns, it will not affect happiness anyway.

Turn 1 - 550 AD: Sent Southern army to pillage Inca. Nothern army will fight with help of catapults.

Turn 2 - 560 AD: Anarchy is over. MMed all towns to fit new goverment.
Sold ivory to Arabia for territory map and 345 gold
Investigated Zimbabwe:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2733/sm4zimbabwe2bb0.jpg

I'll stop here for discussion. There are 10 muskets and artillery in that city. How many units do we need to take that it? We have only one chance in this game...
I think that we will not be able to survive against TONS of cavs in our main cities and also cavs will attack GL city in one turn, even if we will cut roads because cavalry have 3 movement points. Maybe it would be better to delay destroying Inca and do something with our military at first? In current position we will get conquest defeat in a few turns after declaring war on Zulu :rolleyes:

well, let's at least get gunpowder and knights before we take on Zulu. We won't survive a few turns with spears/MW's

No wonder the Zulus are doing so well! (3 cow capital! :eek:)

Yes, get Chivalry, Invention, PP (for comm trading) and Gunpowder, then upgrade your military to muskets, MDI's, LBM's, and Knights, then make a huge stack of doom of Knights, MDI, LBM, and Trebuchet, and add in 3-4 muskets for defense. Of course, you are going to need to mass-peoduce units for a while- Inca will probably have to stay alive for at least another 20-30 turns- you probably have to slow down the other civs as much as possible (for example, put some ancient units in their way)

Can we focus Zulu attention someplace else beside the Inca? We need a diplomatic issue that will drain Zulu units and allow us to build up.

Zimbabwe
Our best attacker will be vMaces and the best defender in Zimbabwe is a vCrusader, with a bunch of vMuskets and two cannons in a size 12 city. We can expect a bunch of counter attacks. So, say about 10 vPikes, 20 vMaces and 10 Trebuchets? Or is that too low?

We need to delay Incans death, they are attacked by few civs including Zulu :eek:
We can declare war on civs who are near Zulu but far away from us and let them fight. But we have nothing to offer Zulu...
I guess now we can stop MW production and start building infrastructure and settlers, we will need to upgrade all MWs later anyway. Also now we should stop pillaging and attacking Inca. Any more thought? I'll finish my set tonight.

Try Arabia or Japan.

so, is this game dead or do we still play?

Who's up??

Smart hasn't finished his turns yet.