View Full Version : Some General Observations and Comparisons


HoriujiMan
Jan 07, 2007, 11:31 PM
I've been bouncing back and forth between playing the Total Realism Mod and Rhys Mod. With that said, I'll pass along some observations regarding this Mod. (Since I am new in posting here, I know some of these comments have been raised in other threads, so please excuse any duplication on my part.)

In general, the strong point of the Mod has been smoothing the changes in tech with units that really do provide more of a feel for a particular period. It's the one thing that really distinguishes this Mod over other forms of play in Warlords/Civ 4. With this said, there are some things that I wish could be addressed:

Massive Garrisons - It seems to easy for the AI and the player to build up huge garrisons. In the early stages, it is very easy find AI cities with 10+ units. Perhaps there should be severe economic cost penalties for exceeding certain bands of units, that escalate in sizable leaps. I'm not a history expert, but managing the costs of fielding armies was one of the major limitations in any civ. With the exception of the Chinese (and perhaps the Persian armies during the Persian wars), it was tough for anybody to field armies of over 30,000 for a long time.

Those Smart Rebels - "Well done Counsel Germanicus, I am so happy that you have invented Gunpowder." "Yes, Ceasar, we have stored a multitude of new weapons is our Barracks and have left the Barracks keys on the table for any slave to come along and take at their leisure." "Arrgh" exhales Ceasar. I've seen the comments both ways on rebellions. I don't mind them so much, but it does seem odd for the rebels to have the latest tech weapons and to be equal to or better than the civs own forces. I'd let rebels get a notch below current tech (or something to better reflect the slave revolt). This is a bit different than the revolt stuff that happens in Rhys where you do have part of your civ split off and there it seems to make sense.

Those Not So Smart Rebels - I wonder if you could do something to make the rebels actually do something like destroy improvements rather than sit around as fodder giving experience to units. In a lot of situations it seems you can ignore them, they will do nothing or just fade off somewhere.

Interesting Flips - I was wondering whether something was adjusted to the cultural flip aspect of things. It seems to occur a bit easier than in the vanilla game or in Rhys. I've had Rome flip Athens, which I thought was pretty funny. On the other hand, I had a game where Lyon, completed surrounded by Roman pink, never ever flipped - and, it had as much cultural development as a portosan on a parking lot.

Time - I guess my biggest gripe (and I like the Mod), is the time between turns. I'm using a high end machine, but the time between turns is between 15-25 seconds. I play other 18 civ games and nothing approaches this. I guess this is do to the massive number of units?

The Mae West Syndrome - While I agree with Mae West that too much of a good thing is good, perhaps there are a tad bit too many wonders, mini wonders and somewhat wonders in the game? Teacher: "Johnny, can you name the Seven Hundred Eighty-Six Great Wonders of the World?" Johnny: (thinking, damn, I thought there were only Seven.) While I see that the effort was to give a chance, perhaps, for the AI to develop competitive alternative wonders, it doesn't seem to happen. The uber human player can amass far too many and get far too much GP bonus. The flavoring is nice, but perhaps you can downsize the impact.

I hope you guys don't take my comments too negatively. There are many things in the Mod that I wish were in Rhys. As I said, I'm playing both of them with great enjoyment and appreciation to the developers.

Oh, by way of a P.S., can you put a unit inbetween the Treb and the Cannon. Once you get Cannon ahead of the other civs, the game is more or less over on the military side. Since it seems the AI does try to keep pace, giving a weaker early cannon unit might help prevent the human from beating the living daylights out of the other AI civs.

Anaztazioch
Jan 08, 2007, 06:01 AM
Massive Garrison : How about this one ?
Axeman
Axeman
Axeman
Axeman
Axeman
Axeman
Warrior
Spearman
Chariot
Chariot
Spearman
Immortal (86)

crismac
Jan 08, 2007, 09:28 AM
I've been bouncing back and forth between playing the Total Realism Mod and Rhys Mod. With that said, I'll pass along some observations regarding this Mod. (Since I am new in posting here, I know some of these comments have been raised in other threads, so please excuse any duplication on my part.)

In general, the strong point of the Mod has been smoothing the changes in tech with units that really do provide more of a feel for a particular period. It's the one thing that really distinguishes this Mod over other forms of play in Warlords/Civ 4. With this said, there are some things that I wish could be addressed:

Massive Garrisons - It seems to easy for the AI and the player to build up huge garrisons. In the early stages, it is very easy find AI cities with 10+ units. Perhaps there should be severe economic cost penalties for exceeding certain bands of units, that escalate in sizable leaps. I'm not a history expert, but managing the costs of fielding armies was one of the major limitations in any civ. With the exception of the Chinese (and perhaps the Persian armies during the Persian wars), it was tough for anybody to field armies of over 30,000 for a long time.

Those Smart Rebels - "Well done Counsel Germanicus, I am so happy that you have invented Gunpowder." "Yes, Ceasar, we have stored a multitude of new weapons is our Barracks and have left the Barracks keys on the table for any slave to come along and take at their leisure." "Arrgh" exhales Ceasar. I've seen the comments both ways on rebellions. I don't mind them so much, but it does seem odd for the rebels to have the latest tech weapons and to be equal to or better than the civs own forces. I'd let rebels get a notch below current tech (or something to better reflect the slave revolt). This is a bit different than the revolt stuff that happens in Rhys where you do have part of your civ split off and there it seems to make sense.

Those Not So Smart Rebels - I wonder if you could do something to make the rebels actually do something like destroy improvements rather than sit around as fodder giving experience to units. In a lot of situations it seems you can ignore them, they will do nothing or just fade off somewhere.

Interesting Flips - I was wondering whether something was adjusted to the cultural flip aspect of things. It seems to occur a bit easier than in the vanilla game or in Rhys. I've had Rome flip Athens, which I thought was pretty funny. On the other hand, I had a game where Lyon, completed surrounded by Roman pink, never ever flipped - and, it had as much cultural development as a portosan on a parking lot.

Time - I guess my biggest gripe (and I like the Mod), is the time between turns. I'm using a high end machine, but the time between turns is between 15-25 seconds. I play other 18 civ games and nothing approaches this. I guess this is do to the massive number of units?

The Mae West Syndrome - While I agree with Mae West that too much of a good thing is good, perhaps there are a tad bit too many wonders, mini wonders and somewhat wonders in the game? Teacher: "Johnny, can you name the Seven Hundred Eighty-Six Great Wonders of the World?" Johnny: (thinking, damn, I thought there were only Seven.) While I see that the effort was to give a chance, perhaps, for the AI to develop competitive alternative wonders, it doesn't seem to happen. The uber human player can amass far too many and get far too much GP bonus. The flavoring is nice, but perhaps you can downsize the impact.

I hope you guys don't take my comments too negatively. There are many things in the Mod that I wish were in Rhys. As I said, I'm playing both of them with great enjoyment and appreciation to the developers.

Oh, by way of a P.S., can you put a unit inbetween the Treb and the Cannon. Once you get Cannon ahead of the other civs, the game is more or less over on the military side. Since it seems the AI does try to keep pace, giving a weaker early cannon unit might help prevent the human from beating the living daylights out of the other AI civs.I agree with most of your post,I would like to state something about the time aspect.If you are playing on world map,it has 24 civs not 18.So between turns take much longer with the extra 6 civs.I also play on a high end system,and it takes me about 15 to 20 seconds per turn on earth map,but play on a random map with lower amount civs and maybe a smaller map it is 10 times faster :)

HoriujiMan
Jan 08, 2007, 05:25 PM
I knew there was always something suspect about my ability to count (re the 24 civs).

With respect to the massive garrisons...

One thought I have had for several years regarding Civ from the beginning was that there should be a limit on the type of units a civ can make (just like there are limits now on the number of spies, priests, etc.). You should only be able to build so many knights or praets or whatever seems logical to limit. It would also make them rather special and you would "suffer" if you just throw them into battle without care. This is probably much more realistic as it was easy to raise levies with pitchforks and clubs, but not trained sophisticated troops.

Unfortunately, the AI probably needs the ability to build unlimited types of units to help it along. I am sure there must have been raised many times before.

Anaztazioch
Jan 08, 2007, 06:49 PM
Building units should slower growth at least. Lower city growth, less production, longer to build units = less units.
But with slavary, AI just hurries production all the time and never stops producing units...

Harrier
Jan 09, 2007, 06:41 PM
Most of these current discussions above my post, are about the AI. Some of the points raised are being dealt with by Blake in the "Better AI Mod.". :goodjob: That is of course included as part of this mod.

So no worries - when Blake and Iustus produce a new version (in fact they have) it will eventually be included in this mod. :) :D