I'm finding them pretty bad =/ To not be able to build a lumbermill in them is pretty hefty for a small chance for a treant that despawns at the end of a turn or 2. Maybe when it becomes an ancient forest it gives +2 hammers, or at least +1. Not to mention they're easy enough for someone to just walk around if need be.

Yeah Lumbermill and Mine got a much needed boost a couple months back, but Ancient Forest was forgotten.

I'd suggest to let ancient forests provide +1 commerce, plus an additional one next to rivers (as is the case with lumbermills).

ancient forests provide an extra food (iirc) thats plenty for something that doesn't require any worker to build it.

When was the last time you had a shortage of workers in the late game?
And would you always prefer one food over two hammers?

Yea I think Ancient Forests are only good for the Ljosalvar in the late game... Early they are good for every civ, but late the improvments get better than the Ancient Forests alone.

Of course I've got plenty of workers in the late game, but thats not when the're useful. They make it much easyer to grow up to the happycap in the early game, and I don't need to waste worker time building any farms.

In the late game I often just chop them down to replace them with something else if I need it.

If they provided superior benefits in early eras (as they do) AND superior (or even equal) benefits in later era (as you propose) they would be overpowered unless things were added to other religions to make them equal.

Of course I've got plenty of workers in the late game, but thats not when the're useful. They make it much easyer to grow up to the happycap in the early game, and I don't need to waste worker time building any farms.

In the late game I often just chop them down to replace them with something else if I need it.

Well the point of this thread is exactly that ancient forests should also be useful later in the game.
By simply adding eg +1 commerce to them the problem indeed arises they could become too powerful in the early game. Though that could be solved by lowering the ancient forest conversion chance, so that they appear later. Or better: an SDK change so that terrain features can also get increased production with certain techs.

If they provided superior benefits in early eras (as they do) AND superior (or even equal) benefits in later era (as you propose) they would be overpowered unless things were added to other religions to make them equal.

What would be the problem if ancient forests provided equal benefits as other stuff in later areas? (Which was the case btw before lumbermills got an extra hammer with Commune with Nature)

If Ancient forests provided equal or better production through all eras, there would be no reason to not want them, unless by choosing them you are giving up other opertunitys with other religions that would balance it out.

If you think that FoLeaves is currently underpowered, then yes, you could increase production from AF. But if you think that FoLeaves are ballanced or overpowered, then there is no reason to give them any more.

just get yourself some elven workers or slaves

If Ancient forests provided equal or better production through all eras, there would be no reason to not want them,

Isn't spreading forests everywhere the whole point of Fellowship of Leaves?

unless by choosing them you are giving up other opertunitys with other religions that would balance it out.

I'm afraid due to all those negotiations I kinda lost track of what you wanted to say. :mischief:

If you think that FoLeaves is currently underpowered, then yes, you could increase production from AF. But if you think that FoLeaves are ballanced or overpowered, then there is no reason to give them any more.

As far as I'm concerned, the point is not about Fellowship of Leaves versus other religions. For me the point is about ancient forests versus forests with lumbermill after getting Commune with Nature. Normal forests become better than ancient forests, which is rather silly since ancient forests I presume are supposed to be better. Why else would normal forests "upgrade" to them?

just get yourself some elven workers or slaves

Two problems here:

1) Improvements on forests is supposed to be the special ability of the Ljosalfar. Considering that ability standard to everyone, now that would be making forests way too powerful.
2) It depends on the Ljosalfar being present in all your games, and forces you to go to war with them, who I presume would be among your best friends if you're following the Fellowship of Leaves. Can't say I would enjoy a game which would force me to do that.

Spreading forests everywhere is only half the point of FoL, the other half is to make it a fun, balanced, game.

Normal forests don't 'upgrade' to ancient forests, they 'change into' them.
making the forests better now but worse in the late game sounds like a very realistic, and strategicly interesting choice.

So, you commit to treehugging to get more food, but later you decide you want production too. Your local priests and tree-worshipers are not going to like you cutting down their old friends are they?

Spreading forests everywhere is only half the point of FoL, the other half is to make it a fun, balanced, game.

Well personally I consider a fun Fellowship of Leaves game seeing your forests slowly change to ancient forests, and being happy to have those ancient forests instead of normal forests.

Normal forests don't 'upgrade' to ancient forests, they 'change into' them.
making the forests better now but worse in the late game sounds like a very realistic, and strategicly interesting choice.

So, you commit to treehugging to get more food, but later you decide you want production too. Your local priests and tree-worshipers are not going to like you cutting down their old friends are they?

I don't see what's the strategically interesting choice here? From the point you have Commune with Nature, there's only one good choice: as soon as a forest becomes ancient, cut it down, bloom a new forest and two turns later rebuild a lumbermill on it (workers not being an issue in the lategame). Ad infinitum.

I'd suggest that ancient forests be given a commerce or two from late game techs, but that would make the elves even more powerful than they currently are when following Leaves. What if there was an improvement that all workers could build in ancient forests as long as they had the right technology? It would make ancient forests more useful for most players without making them too powerful for the elves.

So you say that the fun of FoL is getting ancient forests, but you also say you would cut them down systematically? If you want normal forests not ancient forests, you can just convert to something other than FoL

Personally, I would fix it by making it impossible for the workers of a FoL nation to destroy an ancient forest for any reason.

elven slaves are always an option in every game if you're willing to switch religions, ljosalfar or not.

Gift archers of Leaves to the enemy, then declare war? Sounds exploitey to me.

or just get them the religion, or just attack someone who is leaves, or attack someone whos running slavery and then recapture the slaves.

same thing with dwarven workers.

I really like Chand~´s idea. Of making an late-game improvement only buildable on Ancient Forests, I mean. That would improve the forest widhout making the elves too powerfull, because they would have to choose between this new improvment or another one.

O.o Well this stirred a fun debate. Well yes the original idea is that late game Ancient forests are pretty lame =/ I mean it could be something like they get +1 hammer late game because now ancient treants are dying, possibly by barbarians, and their wood = amazing for wood working and elves can manipulate it better? Doesn't necessarily mean they're butchering trees down. However I agree it should be something researched in techs, or maybe the priests create it through magic.

Why this came up to begin with? Because I'm a beastman under FOL xD Funny yes?

Well mainly because I looooove lumbermills to death, so all my cities always have 3+ forests around them. Which goes extremely well with Gaurdian of the Leaves civic, which also gives you +5 health in all your cities. And the elf heroes are quite nice =P


On a side note. I don't think Treebeard was too happy to see what Saruman did to his forests xD (You people who keep hacking them down and rebuilding xP) In fact, maybe if you cutdown an ancient forest, you have a huge chance of spawning barbaric treants in the spot, and maybe surrounding forests.

Don't forget that in the late game, ancient forests also provide health and happiness (with the right civic). So that's food, health, and happiness, thus bigger cities and more specialists...

Normal forests also provide health and happiness with Guardian of Nature. And Commune with Nature, the tech that makes forest + lumbermill better than ancient forest, also enables druids so that you can get plenty of food due to vitalizing.

I agree with what Maniac is saying.




Why can't you allow lumbermills on ancient forests anyway?

Lumber mills are probably disallowed from ancient forests for the same reason that ljosalfar can't build lumber mills at all- they don't fit for RP reasons. The treants that live in the ancient forests would probably get mad at you if you started cutting them up for building material (I know I would, if I were a treant).

So, how about putting in a special ancient-forest only improvement that mirrors the effect of the lumber mill? Call it, like, an "enchanted grove" or something and pretend that the added production comes from the forest spirits magically aiding your laborers. If the consensus is that the +1 food ancient forest bonus is too strong in conjunction with the production boost, perhaps the enchanted grove could even be given -1 food so that an ancient forest with an enchanted grove has the same yield as a forest with a lumber mill.

I agree with Ringedtailed, I think people are taking this wrong by thinking production = destruction of trees. Like he said it could be spirits helping, like treants helping to build. Hell I gaurantee you a fort will be built MUCH faster with treants helping =P Then again they are slow hehe.

Also, re-illiterating from before, could just be fallen treants from the war and their wood is twice as amazing then normal wood making it better for building. I mean there's a couple ways of looking at this.